RE: [lace] Pattern

[Agnes Boddington]

Hi Susan

Thank you for the info, will try the Lace Guild.

Agnes

 

From: Susan Roberts [mailto:su...@susanroberts.info] 
Sent: 29 October 2015 17:24
To: Agnes Boddington
Cc: lace@arachne.com
Subject: Re: [lace] Pattern

 

Hi Agnes

 

I thin it's a Barry Biggins design and in one of his two books (a friend has
got mine at the moment so I can't check but I think it is in the Alphabet
one).  The Lace Guild should have both in the library 

 

Best wishes
Susan
--
Susan Roberts

Newton-le-Willows, England 

Website: www.susanroberts.info


On 29 Oct 2015, at 16:24, Agnes Boddington 
wrote:

I am looking for a pattern, can anyone help as to where/what book I can find
it?

It is a Honiton pattern of two dolpins by Caroline Biggins.

Agnes Boddington - Elloughton UK

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Re: [lace] Pattern

[Susan Roberts]

Hi Agnes

I thin it's a Barry Biggins design and in one of his two books (a friend has
got mine at the moment so I can't check but I think it is in the Alphabet
one).  The Lace Guild should have both in the library

Best wishes
Susan
--
Susan Roberts
Newton-le-Willows, England
Website: www.susanroberts.info

> On 29 Oct 2015, at 16:24, Agnes Boddington 
wrote:
>
> I am looking for a pattern, can anyone help as to where/what book I can
find
> it?
>
> It is a Honiton pattern of two dolpins by Caroline Biggins.
>
> Agnes Boddington - Elloughton UK

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Re: [lace] Pattern suggestion thanks - and Idrija lace books

[laceandbits]

Just to remind everyone on Arachne that Bridget Cook has had her comprehensive 
Idrija book reprinted.  Another author who was shocked by the high amounts 
second hand copies of the out of print books were being offered and sold for.  
It includes instruction and patterns for both narrow tape (what we think of as 
'typical' Idrija) and broad tape designs.

The reprint is available from Bridget, £20 plus shipping which is currently 
£2.80 in the UK.  You'd need to enquire from her for overseas shipping costs. 
  PM me if you want her contact details.  As far as I know she's not offering 
it for sale via any suppliers: possibly there's not enough difference in cost 
and selling price for her to be able to offer a discount to them.

Jacquie in Lincolnshire

 Original message 
>From Beth Marshall  
Date: 10/01/2015  19:44  (GMT+00:00) 
To Arachne  
Subject [lace] Pattern suggestion thanks - and Idrija lace books 
 
Hello all

thanks to all those who replied (on & off list) with pattern suggestions 
- I now have lots of ideas (if only I had enough time to try them all), 
one of which is to try Idrija lace as there seem to be lots of very 
attractive smallish motif patterns available for that;

As I've never tried Idrija I could do with an instruction book to help 
with the techniques before I leap into any more complex patterns - can 
anyone tell me what Idrija books are out there, and which ones are worth 
buying for a beginner to this type of lace?
Doesn't matter too much if they are not in English, particularly if 
their are plenty of good diagrams (I've been making lace long enough to 
"read" diagrams plus I can read French and Spanish pretty fluently, and 
make out a reasonable amount in German or Italian - armed with the 
international lace dictionary I'll tackle most lace publications)

Meanwhile,  going into the "lace" folder on my computer to dig out the 
Spanish pattern books Lorelei mentioned (which I had downloaded ages ago 
and forgotten about) I found a tape-and-fillings pattern for a treble 
clef - no idea where I downloaded this pattern by Claudine Bouvain from, 
there's just the pricking and a picture of the completed motif in my 
files, originally white but it would look glorious multi-coloured in 
really bright silk threads and I have a ridiculously large stash of 
those so I shall be preparing my pricking and winding some bobbins 
tonight..

Beth

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RE: [lace] Pattern suggestions wanted

[Vicki Bradford]

   
 Beth, Noelene is right. I wrote to them a while ago and they
were very happy for the continued interest in their late father's designs. The
catalogue was 6 euros plus postage. They will tell you how much to send and
you can pay with PayPal.?


Vicki in frigid but sunny Maryland
-Original Message-
  From: Noelene Lafferty

Beth, there's an email address on Michael
Jourde's blogsite.  If you write to  
  that, his children who still run the
site will send you a catalogue.

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RE: [lace] Pattern suggestions wanted

[Noelene Lafferty]

Beth, there's an email address on Michael Jourde's blogsite.  If you write to 
that, his children who still run the site will send you a catalogue.   I 
translated my email into French first using on line G**gle Translate, but I'm 
sure writing in English would be OK.

Noelene at The Angle
noel...@lafferty.com.au

(and if anyone can tell me where to see more of Michel Jourde's patterns and 
how to order them - all I have is the link for his blog, doesn't really help 
with seeing what's available to order...)

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Re: [lace] pattern for a large star

[lacel...@frontier.com]

My star experiences have been in the 3-5 inch range, but I can imagine one a
bit bigger.  I think you could take any star pattern you like and enlarge it
to the size you want.  Adjust the size of thread to fit the new size, and
make it.
For the top of a tree, I can see various ways of mounting it.  One is to
insert a string or ribbon through lace at the center back and tie it to the
tree top.  Another is to make two stars and sew them together leaving the
bottom open.  The third is to make a paper cone or cylinder and attach the
angel to it.
Any star you make should look lovely on your tree.
Alice in Oregon -- where it's supposed to pour rain for the next two days. 
Good time for making lace.




 On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:53 PM, Regina Haring 
wrote:


 I was wondering if anyone has made a large bobbin lace star that could be
used at the top of a Christmas tree - a star perhaps six inches across. If
you have tried this, does it look as good as you had hoped? And where did
you find a pattern?

Looking forward to your comments,
Regina Haring
Nanuet, NY

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Re: [lace] Pattern help

[Clay Blackwell]

The book is "Russian Lace Patterns" and the co-authors are Anna Korableva and 
Bridget M. Cook. Batsford Press, 1996.  The pattern is on page 27.

I worked this pattern in a workshop with Vera Cockuyt and she had enlarged the 
pattern and introduced the use of color.  It is a very sweet pattern!

Clay

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 10, 2014, at 1:54 AM, "corinne"  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> There is a pattern in one of Bridget Cook's Russian lace books. Not sure
> which one though.
> 
> Corinne in Brighton
> 

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Re: [lace] Pattern help

[J D Hammett]

Hi fellow Arachnids,

there is a nice Russian lace rocking horse in Russian Lace Patterns by Anna 
Korableva & Bridget Cook on page136.


Happy lace making,

Joepie, East Sussex, UK




Charlotte Moore
Sent: 10 April 2014 03:32


I need a pattern of a rocking horse. I know I have seen one and actually
thought I had it in my collection. Alias I cannot find it. If you happen to
know of this pattern please let me know. It was a tape lace pattern. Many
thanks



Charlotte Moore

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RE: [lace] Pattern help

[corinne]

Hi

There is a pattern in one of Bridget Cook's Russian lace books. Not sure
which one though.

Corinne in Brighton
UK

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Charlotte Moore
Sent: 10 April 2014 03:32
To: lace@arachne.com
Subject: [lace] Pattern help

I need a pattern of a rocking horse. I know I have seen one and actually
thought I had it in my collection. Alias I cannot find it. If you happen to
know of this pattern please let me know. It was a tape lace pattern. Many
thanks

 

Charlotte Moore

Today has been a beautiful spring day in Georgia

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Re: [lace] Pattern help

[Jacquie Tinch]

Russian lace one in one or the other of Bridget Cook's two Russian lace books. 

Honiton one in Caroline Biggins book. 

Jacquie,
Just getting ready for The Lace Guild Convention this weekend. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 10 Apr 2014, at 03:32, "Charlotte Moore"  wrote:

> I need a pattern of a rocking horse. I know I have seen one and actually
> thought I had it in my collection. Alias I cannot find it. If you happen to
> know of this pattern please let me know. It was a tape lace pattern. Many
> thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Charlotte Moore
> 
> Today has been a beautiful spring day in Georgia
> 
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> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/

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RE: [lace] Pattern drawing software

[Ruth Budge]

Jo, I'll check it out after my meeting today is over

But I do know that Colin informed everyone that he was giving up on Easy
Lace - even if the web page is still there.If you know the name to
Google, my Father's business page is still on the internet, 10 years after
he died!!

Ruth
thelacema...@optusnet.com.au



-Original Message-
From: jo [mailto:yhgr@xs4all.nl] 
Sent: Saturday, 15 June 2013 4:51 PM
To: 'Ruth Budge'; lace@arachne.com
Subject: RE: [lace] Pattern drawing software

Hello Ruth

The website of Easy-lace seems still alive.

I made some adjustments to
http://bobbin-lace.wikispaces.com/design+software+compared but I might not
have all the details right from the description page, could you fill me in
on the question marks and other details I missed. For example is it only
available in English?

Jo

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RE: [lace] Pattern drawing software

[jo]

Hello Ruth

The website of Easy-lace seems still alive.

I made some adjustments to
http://bobbin-lace.wikispaces.com/design+software+compared but I might not
have all the details right from the description page, could you fill me in
on the question marks and other details I missed. For example is it only
available in English?

Jo

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Re: [lace] Pattern drawing software

[Anna Binnie]

On 15/06/13 7:13 AM, jo wrote:


@Anna

Couldn’t you share some of your templates, why let others reinvent the
wheels? I shared my baby steps on
http://bobbin-lace.wikispaces.com/software+reviews but never tried to
walk the lane any further.

@spiders using http://www.gimp.org

I just wrote a tutorial for grids on
http://bobbin-lace.wikispaces.com/grids#Tutorials-Gimp but still have to
learn to connect the dots efficiently. Any hints?

Jo


I'd be happy to share my Visio templates with anyone who asks for them.

Anna

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RE: [lace] Pattern drawing software

[Ruth Budge]

"You can find several overviews in the software section of
http://bobbin-lace.wikispaces.com ."



The information is just a little bit out of date, I'm afraid.Lace RXP
was replaced by Lace8 a year ago and Easy Lace went out of business about
three years ago.

Knipling is good for the more technically-minded, but a lot of folk seem to
have trouble with it.   If the user doesn't understand the "mathematical"
approach to sizing patterns it can be difficult.   Some of the drawing
functions need an understanding of maths as well.

As I've said to someone, Lace8 is the nearest thing to drawing patterns by
handinstead of  graph paper, pencil and eraser, substitute computer
screen, mouse and delete button!But of course, with all the computer
extras such as copy and paste etc.

I don't want to be seen as "advertising" which is why I've stayed quiet on
this discussion - and I should point out that I cannot supply anyone out of
Australia or New Zealand with copies of the programme anyway, due to
licencing restrictions.   If you decide Lace8 is for you, I don't benefit in
any way!

Ruth Budge (Sydney, Australia)

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Re: [lace] Pattern drawing software

[Brenda Paternoster]

I would say go for Adobe Illustrator - it's an industry standard program for 
all sorts of drawing needs and once you have a basic grid drawn it can be used 
for lace including all the bending and distorting you can think of.

Brenda

On 12 Jun 2013, at 02:28, Liz and Ken Roberts wrote:

> I will have a great opportunity through my employer to explore/learn any of
> several hundred different computer software programs over a week's time.
> Besides Excel (and its formula mysteries) I thought I would check out any
> possible programs that could be used for bobbin lace pattern making.  Does
> anyone have any suggestions of ones to explore and why you prefer it?

Brenda in Allhallows
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Pattern drawing software

[Anna Binnie]

On 12/06/13 11:28 AM, Liz and Ken Roberts wrote:

I will have a great opportunity through my employer to explore/learn any of
several hundred different computer software programs over a week's time.
Besides Excel (and its formula mysteries) I thought I would check out any
possible programs that could be used for bobbin lace pattern making.  Does
anyone have any suggestions of ones to explore and why you prefer it?

My week to access starts this coming Monday.

Thanks!
Liz in Missouri

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Hi I use Visio, a Microsoft product. Only problem is that you have to do 
all your own programing but on the plus side you can make up your own 
modules and save them in your templates. Once you have made up your 
pattern you can save it as a tiff and import it into a word document. My 
teaching notes and prickings have been produced this way. Unfortunately 
it is not available for Apples and I have to work on 2 computers.


It is also good for patchwork templates.

Anna from a wet Sydney

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Re: [lace] pattern and thread size

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Sue

The various working angles of different Bucks patterns doesn't make a huge 
difference to the size of thread needed.  A rule of thumb is that if you make a 
winding of 10 wraps it should fit snugly between two adjacent pinholes along 
the footedge (or two vertical pinholes within ground) for point grounds and a 
winding of 12 wraps should fit between two footedge pinholes for torchon if the 
thread is the right thickness.

Is your pattern drawn over a straight grid? - so that you have to add and 
subtract pairs to get the circular shape.  The diamond shape of four adjacent 
ground pinholes will be the same shape and size throughout the design.  Or is 
it drawn over a logarithmic/computer generated grid which means that one group 
of four pinholes is a different shape/size to another group of four pinholes?

If your pattern is of the latter type (any sort of lace) you just have to 
compromise and use a thread size to fit the average density of the pricking 
and/or go for the thickest that you can squash into the tightest/densest parts 
without it puckering up.  I was told ages ago that the word used by the old 
Bucks lacemakers for this puckering/wrinkling was twippering.

Brenda

On 11 Aug 2011, at 10:19, Sue wrote:

> When you talk about the grid size between footedge and grid, I understand 
> perfectly on a straight piece, how do I go about checking that on a bucks 
> circular pattern?  Looking at this I can see along the diagonal (which I am 
> guessing is the grid, and straight across the piece which has a slightly 
> wider gape. Obviously with the different angle of bucks verses the torchon 
> examples in the book, its not so obvious to my poor little tired brain,

Brenda in Allhallows
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] pattern and thread size

[Sue]

Thank you Brenda and Jane,
I just printed it off bigger, following your suggestions.  As it was a 
pretty small piece, the larger print still looks like it will work and comes 
up a bit like a large church window which was what I was looking for and I 
think will still fit inside one of those cards with a circular appeture.


I do have Edition 5, but my old maths skills have sadly deserted me, so 
thank you both for coming to my assistance, .
Brenda, When you talk about the grid size between footedge and grid, I 
understand perfectly on a straight piece, how do I go about checking that on 
a bucks circular pattern?  Looking at this I can see along the diagonal 
(which I am guessing is the grid, and straight across the piece which has a 
slightly wider gape.  Obviously with the different angle of bucks verses the 
torchon examples in the book, its not so obvious to my poor little tired 
brain, .

Many thanks,
Sue t
Dorset UK


Hi Sue

If you have one of the later editions of Threads for Lace have a look at the 
thread wraps per space - page 8 in Ed5.


The finer the thread the more leeway you have in the number of wraps/cm you 
have, but.
for a Bucks (point ground) pattern using a 58 w/cm thread (slightly finer 
than Brok 100/2) the ideal space between footedge pinholes is 1.8mm.
For a 40 w/cm thread (slightly finer than Egyptian 60/2) it's 2.5mm  which 
is quite a bit bigger.


100% / 1.8 x 2.5 = 138.88  so you need to increase your pattern by 139% 
which is a lot.   A4 -> A3 increase is 141% which is only marginally bigger.


Brenda

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Re: [lace] pattern and thread size

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Sue

If you have one of the later editions of Threads for Lace have a look at the 
thread wraps per space - page 8 in Ed5.

The finer the thread the more leeway you have in the number of wraps/cm you 
have, but.
for a Bucks (point ground) pattern using a 58 w/cm thread (slightly finer than 
Brok 100/2) the ideal space between footedge pinholes is 1.8mm.  
For a 40 w/cm thread (slightly finer than Egyptian 60/2) it's 2.5mm  which is 
quite a bit bigger.

100% / 1.8 x 2.5 = 138.88  so you need to increase your pattern by 139% 
which is a lot.   A4 -> A3 increase is 141% which is only marginally bigger.

Brenda

On 10 Aug 2011, at 20:13, Sue wrote:

> I have a pattern I like and want to make, its bucks but the original calls for
> Brok 100/2 which I dont have or anything else that fine.   I dont mind using
> Egyptian 60/2 so can anyone tell me how much bigger the pattern might need to
> be, to take the difference.   39 wpc rather than 56 wpc.

Brenda in Allhallows
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] pattern prickings

[Sue]

OK, I understand now, I sort of got it right but for needlelace, not bobbin 
lace.  Thank you all for some very good and clear emails.   As I am not a 
needlelace person I will stick to the tried and tested card and blue paper I 
have used for 8 years:-)
It just seemed the right time to ask the question as you are all such a mine 
of information.
Sue T, Dorset UK where we are getting a bashing from the winds from the left 
overs of Hurrican Bill



I think it was architect's linen that is good for needlace, rather than
architect's paper for bobbin lace prickings.
(I suspect architects no longer use architect's linen now that everything 
is

designed on computers and printed/photocopied ad lib)
Beth
enjoying a rare sunny day in Cheshire, NW England and getting ready to 
host

our lace group tonight

Sue wrote:

We are currently using some architects paper for pattern making before
cutting some weird shape in wood, but in the back of my mind I am 
thinking

I have heard that architects paper makes good Lace Pricking
paper/parchment. Do any of you researcher lacemakers out there know if I 
am

right.


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Re: [lace] pattern prickings

[bev walker]

I have used both - the paper and the linen (yes, the linen is 'old
technology'), the latter was actually for a needlelace sampler - but...I
washed the linen first! So of course I got a tough piece of fabric, not a
glossy paper-ish medium. The fabric is so tough it was difficult to push a
needle through (duh!). The linen would be ok for a pricking that you draw.

So - the drafting vellum they use now is ok for prickings, but it is a
plastic, and any pointy bits, e.g. if you cut a bit for rectangular bookmark
- are very sharp. Then, when you pin it to the pillow, don't move it much,
else the pinholes get bigger. Also if you do put markings on the pricking,
use it upside down so the pen or pencil markings show from underneath,
doesn't get on the thread

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Sue  wrote:

> We are currently using some architects paper for pattern making before
> cutting
> some weird shape in wood, but in the back of my mind I am thinking I have
> heard that architects paper makes good Lace Pricking paper/parchment.
>

-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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Re: [lace] pattern prickings

[Beth Marshall]

I think it was architect's linen that is good for needlace, rather than 
architect's paper for bobbin lace prickings.
(I suspect architects no longer use architect's linen now that everything is 
designed on computers and printed/photocopied ad lib)

Beth
enjoying a rare sunny day in Cheshire, NW England and getting ready to host 
our lace group tonight 


Sue wrote:
> We are currently using some architects paper for pattern making before
> cutting some weird shape in wood, but in the back of my mind I am thinking
> I have heard that architects paper makes good Lace Pricking
> paper/parchment. Do any of you researcher lacemakers out there know if I am
> right.  

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Re: [lace] pattern for stool?

[Lorri Ferguson]

Patsy,  and others who requested the 'folding lacemakers' foot stool'

I am very sorry I haven't gotten it out yet.  Life has come crashing down on
me:  My husband's health.
I am till intending to get them out (I saved all the requests).  I will put it
on my list for just after Christmas.

Please forgive me.
Lorri
  In our Lacemakers of Puget Sound Guild there have been several (over time)
who
  needed a foot stool and one clever husband designed a folding one that
would
  travel well.  We have put the design in the new letter a couple of times in
the past.
  I don't know how many have actually been made by others.

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Re: [lace] pattern ID

[martina . dewille]

Hello Mark,

the flower is beautiful. I have never seen it, so I can't help with the source.

Compliments,
Martina in Germany




On 21 Apr 2008 at 14:33, Mark, aka Tatman wrote:

> Hello Lacers,
> I recently did a piece of Schneeberger(?) lace from a photo I found
> on the
> internet.  I don't have the pricking, just did it straight from the
> pic.  It
> was a good learning curve for me and had to improvise. It was a
> personal
> challenge and not something I normally do.  I have a lot of books to
> choose
> to make patterns.  But really wanted to try this.   You can see it
> here on
> my blog:  http://www.tat-man.net/blog
> 
> I had downloaded the pic a long time ago and don't recall where it
> came
> from.  If any of you know the creator, I would appreciate you
> letting me
> know so that I can credit it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark, aka Tatman in sunny and cool 70s F Greenville, IL USA
> Www.tat-man.net
> Www.tat-man.net/blog

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RE: [lace] pattern downloads

[Jenny Brandis]

Very true but it does give a measurable indication of interest.

Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia


>> The 2007 Card Exchange patterns has been downloaded 2784 times since 
>> it went up in mid Dec.

Not all accessing events were downloads.  
Robin P.

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[ADELE SHAAK]

Hello, everybody:

In many (if not most) countries the *intent* of the original law is also 
considered before an action is deemed to be illegal.

For example, the law against reselling without the original cover would mean 
that if your cover fell off or were somehow destroyed you were out of luck - 
you'd never be able to re-sell the book. Obviously preventing people from 
taping their book back together or sticking some construction paper on instead 
of the original cover (or, just getting the thing rebound) is not what the law 
intends. In the used book trade, books are rebound all the time and nobody is 
in any trouble. University textbooks are traditionally printed with wide 
margins in the anticipation of them being rebound at least twice.  I think the 
law probably only applies to selling the book as a new book rather than as a 
used book.

The comment that you can't make up a lace pattern from a book borrowed from the 
library troubles me, too. By extension, you also couldn't view videos or DVDs 
you borrowed from the library - just look at them to decide whether or not you 
want to buy. (Or maybe you could view the exercise tape you borrowed, but 
weren't supposed to do the exercises? Watch the film but not follow the plot? 
This doesn't make sense.)

I know that in the UK (and I think in Canada too), there are provisions for 
authors to receive some income from borrowed books. Libraries report how often 
books are borrowed, and some fee is paid to a central office that occasionally 
remits a payment, though the authors have to register to receive the money.

I am sure that there is a lot of discussion, one way or another, regarding 
these points of law. It's the sort of thing that keeps the law courts filled 
and lawyers driving luxury automobiles. But until somebody sues me and wins, 
I'll just take the road of common sense. I will resell books if I wish, 
purchase used books if I find them, and use patterns from books in the library 
(I don't belong to the Lace Guild). But I won't photocopy patterns and hand 
them out all over the place.

Adele
North Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Lorri Ferguson]

My understanding of the phrase (I can be corrected if someone has more
official information) "the book can't be resold without the original cover"
is that this is for paper back books.  If they are not sold at the store they
are shipped to, the cover is to be removed and returned, and the remainder of
the book is to be destroyed.  This saves on shipping charges of sending them
back to the distributor.  I also know that books without covers are
sometimes donated to friends or charities, as I have seen them in circulation
of readers, but the process of removing the cover is to take them out of
circulation.

Just my 2 cents worth,  Lorri

  I have just looked in three totally different lace books I have readily to
hand and none of them have that statement.  I then looked at a couple of
recentish novels nearby (because I was sure I had seen some sort of statement
somewhere) and they both have wording to the effect that the book can't be
resold without the original cover and without a similar copyright statement.
This makes sense where not being able to sell them at all doesn't to me - and
how would I get those great old novels, children's books, etc that I love so
much? :-)

  My tuppence worth ...

  Helen in dark Vancouver, BC on the west coast of mainland Canada

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RE: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Angel Skubic]

Well, I can tell you right now from just perusing the books I have, that
nothing says the books can not be resold. What the craft books say is
that you can't reproduce the "contents" or store the "contents" or send
the "contents" of the book by any means electronic, mechanical or
manually with out the permission of the copyright holder. Ie...you can't
quote the book word for word or take the patterns for your own "profit".
They don't generally worry about private people copying things for their
own personal use, and would never bother to go after you for that. I
know they wouldn't care if you sold the books to students to have them
use it as a text for craft classes but they would object if you copied
the book on a printer and used or sold the copies as required materials
in a class. I have seen classes where instructions were copied and I
suspect they didn't write for permission...I think that is a widespread
issue these days but it is hard to catch unless it is done on a "large"
scale.

Cearbhael

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:27 AM
To: Jean Nathan
Cc: lace@arachne.com
Subject: Re: [lace] Pattern copyright


> Most books carry a notice on the copyright page saying that the book
cannot 
> be resold, but in most cases it wouldn't be practical or financially
worth 
> the author or publisher taking legal action to stop a secondhand copy
being 
> sold

Wow, that's hard to believe.  If this is so, then all second-hand book 
stores are illegal.  While it wouldn't be financially feasible for one 
author to go after one seller of one copy of his/her book, a class 
action suit by all authors against all used-book stores would surely be 
worth pursuing!

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[clayblackwell]

The reason books have the statement about covers and copyright pages in the US 
is that paperback books are sent out to bookstores, and if not sold, the 
bookstore can return the cover and copyright page for credit on their account.  
The bookstores are supposed to destroy the rest of the book, but occasionally 
you'll see a "stripped" book, and these are the ones that you shouldn't buy.  
For that matter, dress patterns are handled the same way, with just the 
envelope returned, and the pattern itself destroyed.  When my DD worked at a 
fabric store (right after college), the way they destroyed them was take them 
into the back alley in a garbage bag and fill the bag with water.  The 
resulting mush was then useless to anyone except a recycler or someone working 
in paper mache.

As for depriving an author of money when you sell a second hand book, that 
simply doesn't make sense.  The author was paid for their intellectual 
property.  You are selling a physical object which you own, which is not 
illegal unless you make a copy of that book before you sell it.  If that book 
changes hands six times, that author was paid for that one book.  Sometimes 
highly-sought-after books go out of print (think lace books!) and the only way 
a lacemaker can get one is on the secondary market.  But the author of that 
book has been paid for any books that come onto the secondary market...  
although the publisher evidently leaves something to be desired if they will 
not do another release.

Clay

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

I then looked at a couple of recentish 
> novels nearby (because I was sure I had seen some sort of statement 
> somewhere) 
> and they both have wording to the effect that the book can't be resold 
> without 
> the original cover and without a similar copyright statement. 
> Helen in dark Vancouver, BC on the west coast of mainland Canada 

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Katja Gamby]

Hi all,

Afaik, publishers destroy old unsold books by tearing off the front 
cover before destroying them. This means that if you are offered a book 
without the front cover, neither the author nor the publisher has made

any money from it, so it is considered stolen goods.

Regards,
Katja Gamby from Copenhagen, Denmark (momentarily out of lurkdom)

On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, Jean Nathan wrote:


I have obviously misread this statement in books for the past
I-don't-want-to-remember-how-many years. It's a change of binding or cover
that's covered by this statement, not the re-selling - apologies.


--
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> System Administrator, Dept. of Comp. Sci., U of Copenhagen

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Jean Nathan]

Ok, so maybe not all - I've looked at four of my lace books and they don't say
it, and I'm not going through all 200 plus. But the first paperback copy of a
novel I picked up of the shelf - "The Forsytes" by Suleika Dawson - states on
the copyright page "This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall
not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, resold, hired out, or otherwise
circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or
cover other than that in which is is published and without a similar condition
including this condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser."

I have obviously misread this statement in books for the past
I-don't-want-to-remember-how-many years. It's a change of binding or cover
that's covered by this statement, not the re-selling - apologies.

Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK
  - Original Message -
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [lace] Pattern copyright


  > Most books carry a notice on the copyright page saying that the book
  cannot
  > be resold, but in most cases it wouldn't be practical or financially
  worth
  > the author or publisher taking legal action to stop a secondhand copy
  being
  > sold

  Wow, that's hard to believe.  If this is so, then all second-hand book
  stores are illegal.  While it wouldn't be financially feasible for one
  author to go after one seller of one copy of his/her book, a class
  action suit by all authors against all used-book stores would surely be
  worth pursuing!

  Robin P.
  Los Angeles, California, USA
  (formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[lace1]

I have just looked in three totally different lace books I have readily to hand 
and none of them have that statement.  I then looked at a couple of recentish 
novels nearby (because I was sure I had seen some sort of statement somewhere) 
and they both have wording to the effect that the book can't be resold without 
the original cover and without a similar copyright statement.  This makes sense 
where not being able to sell them at all doesn't to me - and how would I get 
those great old novels, children's books, etc that I love so much? :-)

My tuppence worth ...

Helen in dark Vancouver, BC on the west coast of mainland Canada

On Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 12:28AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Most books carry a notice on the copyright page saying that the book cannot  
>> be resold, but in most cases it wouldn't be practical or financially worth 
>> the author or publisher taking legal action to stop a secondhand copy being  
>> sold
>
>Wow, that's hard to believe.  If this is so, then all second-hand book stores 
>are illegal.  While it wouldn't be financially feasible for one author to go 
>after one seller of one copy of his/her book, a class action suit by all 
>authors against all used-book stores would surely be worth pursuing!

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[robinlace]

> Most books carry a notice on the copyright page saying that the book 
cannot 
> be resold, but in most cases it wouldn't be practical or financially 
worth 
> the author or publisher taking legal action to stop a secondhand copy 
being 
> sold

Wow, that's hard to believe.  If this is so, then all second-hand book 
stores are illegal.  While it wouldn't be financially feasible for one 
author to go after one seller of one copy of his/her book, a class 
action suit by all authors against all used-book stores would surely be 
worth pursuing!

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] Pattern help

[CLIVE Rice]

Hi Tania,

The pattern you are working and showing on your livejournal is, in English, 
a Torchon pattern with spiders, trail, fans, and ground.  It is a lovely 
pattern to work and its components are fairly common in English Torchon. 
The English lacemakers would have the footside on the right.  Works the 
same, though.  I learned to make bobbin lace when we lived in England 
1977-1981.


Happy Lacemaking,
Betty Ann Rice in Roanoke, Virginia USA

- Original Message - 
From: "Tania Gruning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:47 AM
Subject: [lace] Pattern help



Hiya all on this nice spring day in Denmark.

I would like the lists help in identifying the lace I have started on, you 
can see a pic in my livejournal http://tania-gru.livejournal.com/




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RE: [lace] Pattern help

[Karen]

Very neat work Tania. It is a simple Torchon lace pattern.
Karen in Malta 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Tania Gruning
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 10:48 AM
To: lace@arachne.com
Subject: [lace] Pattern help

Hiya all on this nice spring day in Denmark.

I would like the lists help in identifying the lace I have started on, you
can see a pic in my livejournal http://tania-gru.livejournal.com/

I got the pricking along with the bobbins, which I were really after at a
fleamarket, and being slightly lazy, and not wanting to make another
pricking for my next project decided to use this.
It is coming along pretty well and I have learned a lot from this pattern.
Next one is going to be something with tallies, as I have not really done
that.

Tania (In Denmark, who has just been hit by the first days of spring)

 
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Re: [lace] Pattern help

[Ilske Thomsen]

Tania,
This is a typical Torchon pattern. You can probably find in books for 
beginners.

Have fun with it.

Ilske

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Re: [lace] Pattern help

[martina . dewille]

Hi Tania,

it looks very much like patterns in the book "Klöppeln - eine alte Handarbeit 
neu 
belebt" by Katharina Egger. I will look it up later.

Martina in Germany



On 12 Mar 2007 at 2:47, Tania Gruning wrote:

Hiya all on this nice spring day in Denmark.

I would like the lists help in identifying the lace I have started on,
you can see a pic in my livejournal http://tania-gru.livejournal.com/

I got the pricking along with the bobbins, which I were really after
at a fleamarket, and being slightly lazy, and not wanting to make
another pricking for my next project decided to use this. It is coming
along pretty well and I have learned a lot from this pattern. Next one
is going to be something with tallies, as I have not really done that.

Tania (In Denmark, who has just been hit by the first days of spring)

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RE: [lace] Pattern help

[Andrea Lamble]

Dear Tania,

Looks to be a fairly standard torchon lace pattern - spiders, trails (v), 
fans and ground. I don't think it would have a special name like some of the 
Bucks Point patterns do.


Different interpretations can be made on the same pricking - the trails and 
fans can be worked in either half stitch or cloth stitch and the ground 
could be worked as cloth stitch & twist - pin - cloth stitch and twist. If 
working half stitch in the fan then it is best to work the outside edge pair 
in cloth stitch and twist for firmness.  The V trails could be worked with 
the top half in half stitch and the bottom in cloth stitch.


Hope this helps.

Best wishes from
Andrea Lamble

in a spring like Cambridge, where yesterday the grass was mown for the first 
time this year.





From: Tania Gruning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Tania Gruning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: lace@arachne.com
Subject: [lace] Pattern help
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 02:47:44 -0700 (PDT)

Hiya all on this nice spring day in Denmark.

I would like the lists help in identifying the lace I have started on, you 
can see a pic in my livejournal http://tania-gru.livejournal.com/


I got the pricking along with the bobbins, which I were really after at a 
fleamarket, and being slightly lazy, and not wanting to make another 
pricking for my next project decided to use this.
It is coming along pretty well and I have learned a lot from this pattern. 
Next one is going to be something with tallies, as I have not really done 
that.


Tania (In Denmark, who has just been hit by the first days of spring)


-
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
 Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

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_
Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. 
https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/


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RE: [lace] Pattern needed..... Long shot I know.

[Sheree]

What she wants is the words Mary Kay  done in lace.
I was thinking about doing a fan border around it like a small doily. She
wants them to be a small coaster size.

*
If you do not talk to your cat about catnip, who will?
*
 


-Original Message-
From: bevw [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:33 AM
To: Sheree
Cc: lace
Subject: Re: [lace] Pattern needed. Long shot I know.


On 9/1/06, Sheree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got asked today to do a piece of lace with the Mary Kay cosmetics 
> logo ...
Does anyone have a
> pattern done up already in Torchon?

As it is heavily copyrighted, probably not? Would an existing rose pattern
be suitable for your purpose, to save drafting one yourself e.g. something
like Eeva-Liisa's rose designs?

just a thought
-- 
Bev in Sooke BC (on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada) Cdn. floral
bobbins  www.woodhavenbobbins.com blogging lace at
www.looonglace.blogspot.com

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Re: [lace] Pattern needed..... Long shot I know.

[bevw]

On 9/1/06, Sheree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I got asked today to do a piece of lace with the Mary Kay cosmetics logo ...

Does anyone have a

pattern done up already in Torchon?


As it is heavily copyrighted, probably not? Would an existing rose
pattern be suitable for your purpose, to save drafting one yourself
e.g. something like Eeva-Liisa's rose designs?

just a thought
--
Bev in Sooke BC (on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)
Cdn. floral bobbins  www.woodhavenbobbins.com
blogging lace at www.looonglace.blogspot.com

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Re: [lace] pattern question

[Alice Howell]

Sorry -- but sewing those six pinholes is your only
option.  All the threads are needed to go around the
leaf, so sewings are the method to attach the second
side to the first side.

If the size of the leaf diminished from the base to
the point, and threads were dropped off along the
stem, then the threads would be picked up along the
second side without sewings needed.  These leaves use
all the threads almost to the point, thus you have
none to drop off.  Sewings are the technique of choice
to complete the leaves.

However, this type of sewing has a large loop around
the pin so it is very quick and easy to make each
sewing.

Happy lacing,
Alice in Oregon -- with a couple nice days but rain is
coming for Easter

--- Ken and Barbara Saltern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I am starting the pattern Poplar Leaves (# 2.4) from
> Claire Burkhard's book
> Lace for Ten Pair. I understand the start but when
> you get to the first leaf
> what happens in the center. There are 6 pinholes
> that go where the center vein
> would be and the only way I can see to work them is
> with a sewing. That's not
> a problem but I wondered if anyone else has  done
> this pattern and found
> another way?
> 
> Barbara Saltern
> Nazareth, PA USA (where we have had a couple of warm
> sunny days and I love
> them.)
> 
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> 

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Re: [lace] Pattern Enquiry.

[Brenda Paternoster]

Just to confuse matters there are two sizes of wooden bodies, 5cm and 
10cm.

Martin Burkhard stocks both sizes.  On his website
http://tinyurl.com/9f3w2
both sizes are shown but it's the bigger size that is shown as a lace 
angel.


SMP stock the smaller size, and The Lace Guild angle kits also used 
that size.


Jana Novak (Moravia)'s angels and other nativity figures do not use 
wooden

bodies just stiffened lace and a pearl bead for the head.

So  make sure patterns and bodies correspond in size!

Brenda

On 18 Dec 2005, at 07:22, Jenny Brandis wrote:


 Hi Bev

Thank you for listing this site as it has (in the PDF catalogue) some
patterns I had seen on the net but not been able to trace back to a
reseller. You have made my day!

At 06:30 PM 17/12/2005 -0800, bevw wrote:


 The name on the pattern was
M. Burkhard - and I though first of Clare Burkhard, but it was

  definitely M.

Burkhard.   Does anyone know where I can purchase the pattern

  please - I would

  Try Atelier MB (Martin Burkhard). Claire's patterns are availalbe at
  the bobbin lace pages.

  http://www.ateliermb.ch/

  --
  bye for now
  Bev in Sooke BC (on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)

Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.brandis.com.au

Lace Making in the Kimberley Region of Western Australia
Index http://www.brandis.com.au/craft/lace.html
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Brenda
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/

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Re: [lace] Pattern Enquiry.

[Jenny Brandis]

 Hi Bev

Thank you for listing this site as it has (in the PDF catalogue) some
patterns I had seen on the net but not been able to trace back to a
reseller. You have made my day!

At 06:30 PM 17/12/2005 -0800, bevw wrote:

  >  The name on the pattern was
  > M. Burkhard - and I though first of Clare Burkhard, but it was
  definitely M.
  > Burkhard.   Does anyone know where I can purchase the pattern
  please - I would

  Try Atelier MB (Martin Burkhard). Claire's patterns are availalbe at
  the bobbin lace pages.

  http://www.ateliermb.ch/

  --
  bye for now
  Bev in Sooke BC (on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)

Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.brandis.com.au

Lace Making in the Kimberley Region of Western Australia
Index http://www.brandis.com.au/craft/lace.html
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Re: [lace] Pattern Enquiry.

[robinlace]

Hey, thanks Bev!  It has Michel Jourde and Moravia patterns as well as 
Claire BUrkhard.  I saw the wood-bodied angel pattern on the site.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message -
From: bevw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >  The name on the pattern was
> > M. Burkhard - and I though first of Clare Burkhard, but it was 
> definitely M.
> > Burkhard.   Does anyone know where I can purchase the pattern 
> 
> Try Atelier MB (Martin Burkhard). Claire's patterns are availalbe at
> the bobbin lace pages.
> 
> http://www.ateliermb.ch/

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Re: [lace] Pattern Enquiry.

[bevw]

>  The name on the pattern was
> M. Burkhard - and I though first of Clare Burkhard, but it was definitely M.
> Burkhard.   Does anyone know where I can purchase the pattern please - I would

Try Atelier MB (Martin Burkhard). Claire's patterns are availalbe at
the bobbin lace pages.

http://www.ateliermb.ch/



--
bye for now
Bev in Sooke BC (on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)
Cdn. floral bobbins
www.woodhavenbobbins.com

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Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes

[Thelacebee]

In a message dated 24/05/2005 12:25:27 GMT Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hello  Robin and all other lacefriends,
> It's my understanding that copying  pages for use in a class was covered
> under the "fair use" clause of  copyright.  In other words, it would not
> be a violation of  copyright to use patterns from published books.  Of
> course, that  may vary in other countries.
It is not so really clear and because for some  of us  happened that 
they found their own designs with another name  some people are 
meanwhile a bit critical.
Some years ago a lawyer told  me if the name of the origin person and 
the source is written on the sheet  and if you don't asked for more than 
the price of the copy (in our country  not so much private copier exist, 
we go to the copy-shop) it is allowed.  But some book-writer don't like 
this. It is a difficult thing.
And I  know that the DKV try to find an answer for this  problem.
Greetings

Ilske



Apologies for quoting the whole of the email but I wanted to put my  reply in 
context.
 
Last year, during our last foray into copyright law, I contacted the UK  
Patent's office about the copyright on lace patterns within the UK.  They  were 
very helpful and agreed with me that the fact that you have to photocopy  your 
lacebook in order to make the design puts us in a very different position  to 
most other book users.
 
Think about it - If we want to work our way through a book of patterns we  
need to photocopy the pattern (probably about 45% of the book which already  
takes us over what is normally allowed) - then, we are often encouraged to copy 
 
the diagram of the pattern and enlarge it so that we can work from it - so by  
the time we've done it all we could have copied about 75% of the book.
 
But, and this is the biggy ... we have bought the book and by buying it  have 
entered into a contract which allows us to copy the patterns for OUR OWN  use.
 
Copying pages for class, under UK Law is a violation of the copyright which  
allows us to make copies for our OWN use - i.e. that we make the item not that 
 we are using them to teach from.
 
Now US Law is different as a ruling has now been made.  According to  the 
Copyright Handbook by Stephen Fishman, with deals with US Copyright  law: 

<>
 
The advice that I was given in the UK for out of print work is very  
interesting as I was told that the Copyright law protects against the copying 
of  a 
work.  The right lasts for the life of the author, and for 70 years after  the 
author's death.  In addition, in the UK, the publisher also has a right  in the 
layout etc. of the book, which lasts for 25 years.
 

If a work is out of print, this does not negate the copyright, or the  
duration given above.   In the UK there are limited exceptions to  copyright, 
for 
"fair dealing purposes" such as private research, private  study, criticism, 
review and news reporting etc, but these are limited in scope,  and will not 
allow the copying of large sections of a book etc.  If the  author has not 
indicated to what extent she may or may not allow copies of the  work to be 
made, it 
may well be that making a single copy for your own use  would not be 
considered fair dealing under the law.  Your actions could  then constitute an 
infringement of copyright.
 
This advice corroborates the position that the publishers Ruth Bean took  
over the pricking for Miss Channer's mat - which caused this debate to happen  
last time.  They were saying that whether or not Miss Channer was dead, or  her 
original book out of copyright, by redrafting the pricking they now had  
copyright over the pricking as issued - i.e. the layout as mentioned  above.
 
There is a worry that with some of our favourite designers stopping from  
producing patterns that we could be loosing patterns - but there are two issues 
 
here to remember - 1) there are more patterns out there than we could make in 
a  lifetime and 2) once you have finished with a pattern and your pricking 
then you  can always give it on to another lacemaker to have and keep.
 
Such sequential ownership of patterns is not an issue as you relinquish  
rights to it with passing it on.  However, to give the pricking and not the  
original pattern is an infringement of copyright as you have the ability to 
make  
another pricking from the pattern.
 
Multiple copies of a pricking from one book is infringement of copyright so  
by using a pattern for a lace class and giving it out to all students or even  
copying text and doing the same is an violation of copyright.
 
What it comes down to in the end is that copyright management is a self  
management issue - we police ourselves on this and in the end if you feel  
comfortable with doing it then it is your conscience that you have to answer to 
 as 
lets face it unless the author sees you do it how do they know.  But if  I 
intend to work through a book with my students I always encourage them to buy  
the 
book or take 

Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes

[Ilske Thomsen]

Hello Robin and all other lacefriends,

It's my understanding that copying pages for use in a class was covered
under the "fair use" clause of copyright.  In other words, it would not
be a violation of copyright to use patterns from published books.  Of
course, that may vary in other countries.
It is not so really clear and because for some of us  happened that 
they found their own designs with another name some people are 
meanwhile a bit critical.
Some years ago a lawyer told me if the name of the origin person and 
the source is written on the sheet and if you don't asked for more than 
the price of the copy (in our country not so much private copier exist, 
we go to the copy-shop) it is allowed. But some book-writer don't like 
this. It is a difficult thing.

And I know that the DKV try to find an answer for this problem.
Greetings

Ilske

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Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes

[Alice Howell]

At 05:26 PM 5/23/2005, you wrote:
I had thought that it was only "fair use" to copy pages for use in the 
class if the pupils  owned the book in question. Is that not the case here 
in USA?


That was my understanding, also.  We require each student to own the book 
when we have students.  The book owner can copy a pattern for her own use 
but not to pass out to other people, without permission of the 
author.  That's why some people prefer to draft their own beginning 
patterns.  If you own the pattern, you can give it out to as many people as 
you want to.


Each student should have a good, basic reference book, anyway.  That way 
the student can work independently if or when needed.  We do use one of the 
less expensive books so the cost is reasonable to get started.  The cost of 
all the supplies to get started is less than two tickets to a stage play in 
Portland, or a professional ball game, or dinner for two at an upscale 
restaurant.


Our local guild has beginner equipment to borrow (with a deposit) for 
someone who wants to start in a hurry.  But we do expect them to get a book 
for themselves.  The book we use is usually available on eBay or a book 
seller web page at a discount if someone wants to pinch pennies.  (I try to 
keep one on hand at all times since we no longer have a book source in this 
town.)


The choir at church has to buy a copy of a song for each choir 
member.  They can't buy one and copy it for the rest of the choir.  The 
local live theatre has to buy a script for each member of the cast instead 
of making copies.  So.the same thing applies to lace books.  You can 
copy for your own use, but not for other people.


Sorry, teachers.  Draft your own patterns, or have your students each get a 
book.  Thats my understanding of the copyright law in the USA.


Alice in Oregon -- with a spell of summer this week.  And waiting for 
notification of IOLI conference classes. 


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Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes

[Sue Babbs]

I had thought that it was only "fair use" to copy pages for use in the class 
if the pupils  owned the book in question. Is that not the case here in USA?


Sue Babbs
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes



It's my understanding that copying pages for use in a class was covered
under the "fair use" clause of copyright.  In other words, it would not
be a violation of copyright to use patterns from published books.  Of
course, that may vary in other countries.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes

[robinlace]

It's my understanding that copying pages for use in a class was covered 
under the "fair use" clause of copyright.  In other words, it would not 
be a violation of copyright to use patterns from published books.  Of 
course, that may vary in other countries.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> to know, which patterns/prickings you use in the courses you teach?
> Do you draw your own prickings and your own course? (Copyright 
> reasons) or what could I use? 

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Re: [lace] Pattern for bobbin lace classes

[Sue Clemenger]

I'm emerging from serious lurkdom, here
I took an online bobbin lace class a couple of years ago from Bjarne, 
who, I think, also lurks on this list.  If I recall correctly, he used 
some of his own designs, as well as some historical ones.  I also had 
access to some books on bobbin lace that were relatively inexpensive and 
relatively easily available, at least here in the US.  I don't have any 
idea what would be available in Germany, or in Europe-in-general, let 
alone things that are oriented for non-English speakers (I've only got 
two non-English lace books [both Danish] and even they've got some 
English text).  If there's a relatively inexpensive book available to 
you, perhaps you could use that? Or internet sources, if your students 
are likely to have internet access? Or perhaps patterns that are 
copyright free?
It also occurs to me that perhaps you could make arrangements with local 
museums, if you have any that have lace in their collections. 
Sometimes, they'll allow things for educational purposes that they 
wouldn't otherwise.
Most of the beginner-oriented stuff I've seen here in the US seems to 
start folks off with some form of Torchon lace, probably because it's 
relatively coarse and easy to learn.  Starting with work on short bits 
appropriate for use as bookmarks, and working through simple edgings to 
more complex ones

Hope this helps
Sue in Montana (NW corner of the US), where she doesn't have nearly 
enough time for her lace making, because she made the mistake of 
discovering how fun it is to spin and weave her own fabrics;o)


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Dear Arachneans,

finally I decided to advertise a beginners course in bobbin lace in autumn. I would like 
to know, which patterns/prickings you use in the courses you teach?
Do you draw your own prickings and your own course? (Copyright reasons) or what 
could I use? 
I don't think it is realistic to ask the beginners before they even have a first go to by a 
printed course book.


Thanks for your help.
Martina in Germany



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Re: [lace] Pattern Issue

[palmhaven]

It was Christine Springett that suggested tying the gimp thread when they
want to be slippery.  I always overlap thru at least four pair and more if I
can manage it.

Sylvia Andrews
Lacemaking talent on loan from God

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Re: [lace] Pattern Issue

[palmhaven]

Evelynn,
 I am also a self taught lace maker.  You could use Mimosa 120 for the
cotton thread.  If you feel that it is too flimsy, you might want to go with
something with a few less wraps like DMC Broder special 90 or DMC Fil a
Dentelees 200.   If you can get it BROK 100/3 works well with those
patterns.  DMC Coton a Broder 16 works well as a gimp. I do not like pearl
cotton for gimp because it is shiny and your lace cotton is not.
  What you might like even more is silk.  Piper spun silk 210/2.  Sewing
silk comes in two sizes if you can find it at a quilting or sewing shop, 50
and 100.  The 50 would be the size that you need for your pattern.  I have
had very good results with silk.  Buttonhole silk twist works well with this
silk as a gimp.  You could also use Gutterman 30/3 for the gimp.
 A caveat with using gimp in silk is that if the gimp is not of a
continuous  nature, you will need to tie the gimp thread with the ground
thread after they are overlapped.  I have had problems with them wanting to
work loose because the thread is slippery.  You will love the way silk
tensions though.  Hope that this is helpful.
   I made Miss Channer's mat in silk before I made it in cotton.  I used the
100 sewing silk and it was too thin.  It needed the 50 silk.  It was a
learning experience.

Sylvia Andrews
Lacemaking talent on loan from God

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Re: [lace] Pattern Issue

[Jean Barrett]

Hi Evelynn,
I think that DMC Retors d'Alsace 60/2 is no longer made, so you will 
need a substituate unless you can find some old stock. In Brenda's book 
'Threads for Lace' it is given as 46 wraps per cm. The nearest Egyptian 
cotton will be the 70/2. Cotton always works up  much softer than linen 
but there are no linens as fine as this being made any more. I know 
that in one of their book samples Bridget and Geraldine did use a 
cotton called Unity 150 which was a white machine thread which makes 
beautiful crisp lace. Again that is no longer available but Jennifer 
and John Ford of the UK have an equivalent, Dragonfly 140.
Jean in Cleveland U.K.
On 27 Oct 2004, at 05:59, Evelynn McCain wrote:

Dear List:
I subscribed to the lace chat.  I got many helpful responses and many
suggestions that I pose my questions to the list instead.   I am a
self-taught lacemaker. I have been making lace (off and on) for about 
10
years.  I am trying to make a piece of lace from 100 Traditional 
BOBBIN LACE
PATTERNS BY Geraldine Stott and Bridget Cook.  I tried to order the 
correct
threads (DMC Retors d'Alsace No. 60 and Coats cotton a broder, No. 18) 
from
the Lacemaker in Ohio.  I was told they are not available and that 
Egyptian
Cotton 60/2 and Pearl cotton 8 would work.  I ordered them and began 
working
the Bride  on page 37.  I am disappointed that cotton doesn't seem to 
hold
its shape well.  The obvious solution would be to use linen thread, 
but I
want bright white for a bridal handkerchief.  I am more concerned that 
the
lace doesn't look like it would hold together well.  Have any of you 
made
lace using the patterns in this book?  What thread did you use?  Does 
anyone
know of a source for Retors d'Alsace?  I thought a found an error in 
the
pattern, which has been confirmed.  Do you know if there are errors in 
other
patterns in this book?

Thank you so much for your help.
Evelynn
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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Steph Peters]

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:24:23 -0700, Weronika wrote:

>> >Which means: I can put a picture on my website, but not the pricking, and I
>> >should name the source - correct?
>> 
>> Not in my opinion.  Many people do this, but I believe it is a breach of
>> copyright.  A completed piece of lace is a 'derivative work' from the
>> pricking, and is subject to just the same copyright limitations as a
>> straight copy of the pricking.  
>
>Hmmm...  You mean the designer of the pattern actually holds copyright on the
>piece of lace I made, and images of it???  That seems very strange!  

The lace no, but images of it, yes.
--
The future will be better tomorrow. - Dan Quayle
Steph Peters, Manchester, England
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Weronika Patena]

> >>>But can putting a "boasting" picture, with proper credits to book and
> designer, on a non-commercial "boasting" website, really be described as
> *publishing* except in the very widest sense of the word, ie make generally
> known.  Surely it's the modern equivalent of having it hanging on your wall
> where all your friends will see it, or in a key ring fob, or taking your
> finished work to a lace day.<<<
> 
> Not really.  Most people don't have millions of people worldwide coming to
> their living room to see their work.  And someone who sees my piece (at a
> lace day or on a key ring or on my wall) is not in a position to make copies
> at the click of a mouse button, in order to make it themselves.  They would
> have to get it from me, and only with my permission.

Actually, is it legal for you to lend them the actual lace piece to reproduce? 
Also, what about taking pictures and putting them in a physical photo album and
showing them to people? 

If the copyright problem is not people seeing the image, but people copying it
and using it to reproduce the design, then I think it's the copying people who
are breaking the copyright law, not the person who made the picture.  In fact, I
don't think it's even OK to download pictures from people's websites without
their permission...  In which case the only way putting a picture on a website
would harm the designer would be by making it easier to make an illegal copy,
which I don't think is by itself an illegal activity, especially if you give a
source of the pattern so that people know it's published and copyrighted.  

Weronika

-- 
Weronika Patena
Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA
http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Weronika Patena]

> If making items for money raising is against copyright, then woe be tide to
> all those who purchase Family Circle magazine and the like for putting
> patterns in their magazine for just that purpose.

Well, if they actually say they're for that purpose, that's clearly OK, but
otherwise I don't think it matters whether the profits are going to charity or
to you.  However, if you ask the publisher about it, they may let you do it for
charity.  

> What if I bought yards and yards of fabric and made quilts to sell for the
> hospital bazaar.  The fabric was actually printed panels.  I guess selling
> them would be copyright.  

No, it wouldn't, since you bought them.  You're pretty definitely allowed to
sell anything you buy.  Now if you had your own fabric printing machine (or
however it's done), and made some of your own fabric with the same design and
then sold it, that would be breach of copyright. 

> How silly it would be for a lawyer to send a
> letter to the volunteer office at the hospital telling us to cease and
> desist selling the quilts to raise money to help save lives.

You don't know how evil typical companies can be...  They'll sue people and not
care. 

> I wouldn't worry about it.  Look at ebay.  There are lots of pillows and the
> like being sold with Disney and other copyrighted items made into items that
> people have made and are selling.

But did they personally print the designs on the fabric or whatever, or did they
buy them?  
Also, especially given the recent lace CD problem, I don't think eBay sellers
can be given as a good example of what is OK under copyright law...

> This copyright issue comes up so often, it makes my head spin.  It gets
> people so terrified to do anything and I think that's just ridiculous.  Of
> course there's the stealers, but I would bet 99% of us are not out to rip
> off other's work, and I don't know anyone here who's become a millionaire
> making lace.

True.  I strongly doubt anyone's been sued over lace copyright in the last 50
years or so, but since this is such a small community, people know what others
are doing and will become annoyed if they don't like it.  I remember at least
one long thread about someone stealing designs on Arachne.

Weronika

-- 
Weronika Patena
Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA
http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Weronika Patena]

> >Which means: I can put a picture on my website, but not the pricking, and I
> >should name the source - correct?
> 
> Not in my opinion.  Many people do this, but I believe it is a breach of
> copyright.  A completed piece of lace is a 'derivative work' from the
> pricking, and is subject to just the same copyright limitations as a
> straight copy of the pricking.  

Hmmm...  You mean the designer of the pattern actually holds copyright on the
piece of lace I made, and images of it???  That seems very strange!  

> To help understand why this is so, consider a similar situation.  I bought
> an oil painting by E B Watts of a teapot shaped like a cauliflower in a
> field of carrots.  The painting I bought is the one and only oil original.
> However, I didn't buy the copyright to the image, only the physical painting
> itself.  So E B Watts can (and I believe has) sell prints of the painting I
> own.  She can produce Christmas cards with that image on, I can't.   The
> image still belongs to her, unless she chooses to sell it.  This is
> important because obviously it enables her to continue to earn money from
> her idea.

Right.  But this is an image of something she painted, not of something you
made.  Of course buying a book doesn't give me the right to post copies of it
anywhere, but I think that should only apply to copies of the book, not of the
lace I made from the book pattern...
The designer can still make money by publishing the pattern, which I can't do.
Of course it's possible for people to look at my image of the lace (or even at
my lace itself, which it's clearly OK to show and lend to others) and try to
reproduce the pricking, but if that is breaking copyright (I've no idea either
way), it's them doing it, not me. 

Weronika

-- 
Weronika Patena
Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA
http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika

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re: [lace] pattern copyright

[Bev Walker]

Hi everyone and Pat who wrote:
> I don't think the
prices
she charges refelect the time spent designing and then making the lace.
Every
piece she designs is made before the design is sold. There is nothing to
stop
you, Bev, from printing your own designs and selling them.

Good points - to the first, no matter how much $ a lace designer might
deserve, in order to sell at all, the price is what the market will bear.
To the second, yes Bev or anyone could self-publish, but again, "is there
a Buyer?" IOW I could take the risk, but I know full well I won't make a
living from it (and maybe not break even) - and few others do either.
(the poverty line is considered to be about $20K in this country
- it boggles my mind to think of a lace designer earning *that
much* - and it is actually so little).

Designing laces is not a lucrative field, but has priceless gains in terms
of accomplishment and, one hopes, recognition by one's peers. Thus - my
designs will appear in lace magazines, available at the cost of a
subscription. My payment is usually a copy of the magazine. If someone
posts a picture on the web of a lace made from one of my designs, I shall
be flattered indeed. If someone publishes one of my designs and calls it
their own, I'll point out the error loudly. I know they won't profit from
it anyway ;)

bfn
Bev in Sooke, BC (west coast of Canada)

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright

[Scotlace]

Bev wonders if any designers make a living out of their designs.  Well, there 
are many who make part of their living from designing and selling their 
designs.  One I know prints her designs onto red paper to prevent illegal 
photocopying for friends etc in order to protect her income. I don't think the prices 
she charges refelect the time spent designing and then making the lace.  Every 
piece she designs is made before the design is sold. There is nothing to stop 
you, Bev, from printing your own designs and selling them.   

Patricia in Wales
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright

[Scotlace]

With regards to selling items made from other peoples' designs this happens 
all the time.  I have collected soft toy patterns, both knitted and sewn, for 
about 40 years now.  When I attend craft fairs I often seen knitted toys for 
sale designed by Jean Greenhowe among others.  And I frequently recognise other 
items that I have the patterns for amongst my collection.  These people are 
selling them to earn money for themselves, not for a particular charity.

I have just looked inside "Knitted toys" by Jean Greenhowe where it states  
"No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, 
or transmitted , in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, 
photocopying, recording or otherwise, or (significantly - my word) any items made for 
commercial purposes without the prior permission of Hamlyn Publishing and the 
copyright holder."
That seems pretty comprehensive.  However, as I have said it seems to be very 
widely ignored.

Patricia in Wales
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Thelacebee]

In a message dated 25/08/2004 16:39:36 GMT Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> So yes, giving credit is very important, but it's the least we can do.  To
> be truly on the up-and-up, we need to ask permission to display, especially
> in such a public forum as the web.
> 
> Robin P.

In the past, when you wanted to make a copy of a piece of lace you took a 
rubbing of the pricking and then trued it up having drawn the lace itself and 
make your own pricking.

Now, if someone puts up a picture of the lace on a website I could, if I was 
sneaky, just print out the picture, put it on some card covered with clear 
plastic and make the pricking from the picture.

Now personally, this is too much hassel and I'd just go and find out the 
source of the pattern and buy it but I could do this if I wanted.


Regards

Liz in London

I'm back blogging my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link 
or going to http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee

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re: [lace] pattern copyright

[Bev Walker]

Hi everyone
R. wrote:
> Designers make a pittance from their labors.  Some are trying to make a
living at it and when we violate their copyright we are taking their
livelihood away from them.  Some are so close to breaking even that they

B. scratches head in confusion:
Are we talking about lace designers? Professionals who make prickings for
hobby lacers to use? Are there any who make a living at this? If so,
somebody must be paying them - is there a buyer of lace designs somewhere?
(if so, would they consider any of mine )

bye for now

Bev in Sooke, BC (where it is raining heavily - v. strange after weeks of
hot, dry weather. I could finish reading the mystery novel tonight, or
delve into the luscious new 'Austria-Spitze' that arrived...lace wins!)

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Ruth Budge]

Lynn, I can put your mind at rest on one point - I.L.Soft (the author of the
lace programme) does not own the copyright on your pattern!!   The computer
programme was only the tool you used to draw the pattern - from what you've
said to me privately, I would say the ownership of the design and therefore the
copyright, belongs to you.  Robin Lewis-Wild might've given you a starting
idea, Jeanine has helped you, and I don't think your long-dead grandmother is
going to cause you any problems either!

Warm regards, Ruth Budge (Sydney, Australia)

lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I also have the quandry that in making
lace for the great niece/nephew's
Christening gown, I am using my grandmother torchon lace, made over 80 years
ago, as a guide to design mine. I have looked through several books to find
similar designs incorporating spiders with fans and then had help plotting
it onto the computer lace program Ruth teaches. So whose design is it,
mine, the author of the lace program, Robin Lewis-Wild's, Jeanine's, whose
computer I used, or my long dead grandmother's, h. Even with the piece
I have no idea where my grandmother got the pattern which will be used on
the petticoat.

Lynn Scott, Wollongong, Australia

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RE: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Panza, Robin]

>>>But can putting a "boasting" picture, with proper credits to book and
designer, on a non-commercial "boasting" website, really be described as
*publishing* except in the very widest sense of the word, ie make generally
known.  Surely it's the modern equivalent of having it hanging on your wall
where all your friends will see it, or in a key ring fob, or taking your
finished work to a lace day.<<<

Not really.  Most people don't have millions of people worldwide coming to
their living room to see their work.  And someone who sees my piece (at a
lace day or on a key ring or on my wall) is not in a position to make copies
at the click of a mouse button, in order to make it themselves.  They would
have to get it from me, and only with my permission.


>>>No designer wants the lace made from their designs to then be hidden away
in the back of a drawer.  In fact, so long as it is accredited to them, it
is free advertising for them.<<<

Which is why most designers will give permission for one to display one's
handiwork, crediting them, once one has asked them.  However, they have the
right to be asked and the right to give permission.  Or withold it, if one's
rendition is awful.

So yes, giving credit is very important, but it's the least we can do.  To
be truly on the up-and-up, we need to ask permission to display, especially
in such a public forum as the web.

Robin P.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright/patents/etc.

[Jeriames]

In a message dated 8/25/04 8:14:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> If making items for money raising is against copyright, then woe be tide to
> all those who purchase Family Circle magazine and the like for putting
> patterns in their magazine for just that purpose.
> 
> I think there is a point where the copyright issue becomes just a silly bit
> of nonsense.  If you're making items to raise money for a cause, I would say
> make them, sell them, and if someone wants to come sue you, let them come.
> Imagine how silly THEY would look, having their attorney send a nasty letter
> to the care home about the abuse of coypyright.
> 

Dear Lacemakers,

If a magazine or book or individual releases a copyright for use by 
charitable organizations or whatever, that is their decision and they will put it in 
print.  Once an individual sells a design to a magazine, the design belongs to 
the publisher.  It all depends on the agreement signed, and on what the 
magazine tells readers it is OK to do with what it has published.

Big businesses think nothing of suing.  They have staffs of lawyers, and are 
able to keep them busy earning their keep.  We had a case here where a family 
restaurant was sued by the company with the golden arches, because their name 
was the same and they put it on the family restaurant with the name "Cafe", or 
something like it following their surname.  It was a terrible situation, 
because an individual cannot afford to pay lawyers to defend his right to his name 
on his business.  There was no mistaking this was a small-town restaurant, 
but that did not matter.  They were forced to change the name or go out of 
business.  You can be sure many companies go to court with "little people" every 
day.  

In another example - on a daily basis, NY City police confiscate bogus copies 
of handbags, watches, etc. being sold by sidewalk venders right in front of 
high-end shops, and the fashion designers do take the thieves to court for 
abusing their rights.   It is so common - going to court - that many people do not 
see stories of it highlighted in the media.  The fact it is common does not 
make it OK or lawful.

A needlework designer is usually self-employed, and may depend on her designs 
for income.  There are legal protections in place for these people.   If a 
member of your family was trying to earn money as a designer in order to support 
herself/himself, and people were ripping off the original designs through 
copying them or making kits available to copy them, you would be outraged.  Just 
because you do not know the designer does not make it OK.

The Embroiderers' Guild of America and the American Needlepoint Guild publish 
excellent attorney-prepared articles about copyright in their bulletins on a 
regular basis, because copyrights are so frequently violated and they want 
their members to be aware of what "not to do".  And they want their teachers to 
be protected.  

Copyright infringement happens to be a real problem for designers, authors, 
teachers, etc.  They have spent large sums of money to learn their craft and 
market it to educational organizations, publications or manufacturers, and what 
they produce should never be stolen - any more than we would think it OK for 
someone to pump gas and drive away without paying just because the vehicle 
belonged to a charity.

Jeri Ames in Maine USA 
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Laceandbits]

In a message dated 25/08/2004 14:49:44 GMT Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> However, the case can probably be made
> that they intended the patterns and their derivatives (the finished lace or
> bookcase or whatever) to be "for personal use" and not for publishing by the
> people who made things from the book.
> 

But can putting a "boasting" picture, with proper credits to book and 
designer, on a non-commercial "boasting" website, really be described as *publishing* 
except in the very widest sense of the word, ie make generally known.  Surely 
it's the modern equivalent of having it hanging on your wall where all your 
friends will see it, or in a key ring fob, or taking your finished work to a 
lace day.  No designer wants the lace made from their designs to then be hidden 
away in the back of a drawer.  In fact, so long as it is accredited to them, 
it is free advertising for them.

The important thing is that proper acknowledgement is made of the source of 
the pattern, both the designer and publisher, and this applies even if the 
lacemaker has made even quite substantial personal alterations to that design.

Jacquie

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RE: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Panza, Robin]

>>>all those who purchase Family Circle magazine and the like for putting
patterns in their magazine for just that purpose.<<<

If the magazine states its designs are for bazaar items, then that's tacit
permission to use them for bazaar items.  

>>>What if I bought yards and yards of fabric and made quilts to sell for
the hospital bazaar.  The fabric was actually printed panels.  I guess
selling them would be copyright.  <<<

Re-selling fabric (whether made into a quilt or not) is no different from
re-selling a book.  Perfectly legal.  Not the same as claiming you printed
the fabric.

>>>How silly it would be for a lawyer to send a letter to the volunteer
office at the hospital telling us to cease and desist selling the quilts to
raise money to help save lives.<<<

Yes, many cases of copyright infringement (and other issues) don't get
prosecuted because the bad-PR isn't worth it or because the violator doesn't
have enough money to be worth trying to get some of it.  That doesn't make
it right to commit the crime.  Morality isn't about whether you can get away
with it--it's about whether doing it is right or wrong.

Designers make a pittance from their labors.  Some are trying to make a
living at it and when we violate their copyright we are taking their
livelihood away from them.  Some are so close to breaking even that they
will no longer be able to support themselves.  Others are so disheartened
that they stop designing.  Either way, we all lose.

Robin P.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/

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RE: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Panza, Robin]

>>>Steph wrote: A completed piece of lace is a 'derivative work' from the
pricking, and is subject to just the same copyright limitations as a
straight copy of the pricking.<<<

>>>Bev added: if a pricking is published with the intent that a reader would
use it to produce a piece of lace, then the designer would not own copyright
to the resulting piecethe pattern, yes, the lace itself noI think
posting a picture of your lace made from someone else's design, on the web,
is not violating copyright. <<<

I suspect this one would have to go to court to be decided.  Yes, "How To"
books are meant to be used, and it's really their designs, instructions and
diagrams that they're copyrighting.  However, the case can probably be made
that they intended the patterns and their derivatives (the finished lace or
bookcase or whatever) to be "for personal use" and not for publishing by the
people who made things from the book.

Robin P.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[lynn]

I also have the quandry that in making lace for the great niece/nephew's
Christening gown, I am using my grandmother torchon lace, made over 80 years
ago, as a guide to design mine.  I have looked through several books to find
similar designs incorporating spiders with fans and then had help plotting
it onto the computer lace program Ruth teaches.  So whose design is it,
mine, the author of the lace program, Robin Lewis-Wild's, Jeanine's, whose
computer I used, or my long dead grandmother's, h.  Even with the piece
I have no idea where my grandmother got the pattern which will be used on
the petticoat.

Lynn Scott, Wollongong, Australia

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[nerakmacd]

If making items for money raising is against copyright, then woe be tide to
all those who purchase Family Circle magazine and the like for putting
patterns in their magazine for just that purpose.

I think there is a point where the copyright issue becomes just a silly bit
of nonsense.  If you're making items to raise money for a cause, I would say
make them, sell them, and if someone wants to come sue you, let them come.
Imagine how silly THEY would look, having their attorney send a nasty letter
to the care home about the abuse of coypyright.

Logic has to come into play here.

What if I bought yards and yards of fabric and made quilts to sell for the
hospital bazaar.  The fabric was actually printed panels.  I guess selling
them would be copyright.  How silly it would be for a lawyer to send a
letter to the volunteer office at the hospital telling us to cease and
desist selling the quilts to raise money to help save lives.

I wouldn't worry about it.  Look at ebay.  There are lots of pillows and the
like being sold with Disney and other copyrighted items made into items that
people have made and are selling.

If you were to make some lace garters for example and sell them at a wedding
show, I highly doubt you would be arrested for copyright infringement.

This copyright issue comes up so often, it makes my head spin.  It gets
people so terrified to do anything and I think that's just ridiculous.  Of
course there's the stealers, but I would bet 99% of us are not out to rip
off other's work, and I don't know anyone here who's become a millionaire
making lace.

Karen

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[nerakmacd]

My youngest son, Alex, who is 20, just informed me the other day that Jimi
Hendrix(for all familiar with 1960's music) did not, nor does his estate,
own any of his works, and they cannot afford a proper burial site for him
because the record company owns all his music and anything Jimi Hendrix.  So
if you see a shirt, hear his music, etc., his family sees not a single penny
of it, the music company does(has anyone seen the new Pepsi ad for
instance).

So that is copyright gone totally WRONG.  Whatever you thought or think
about Jimi's music or his life, the fact he signed away his rights, most
likely because the music industry took advantage of him, is just a shame.
Look at how Priscilla Presley was able to salvage Elvis' name is now his
daughter is a multimillionaire because of her mother's careful use of the
copyrights she holds.

Karen

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[nerakmacd]

While still on this subject, but not about lace, I have a book of quilting
blocks that I wanted to print off and use for a master copy.  The book
handily came with a cd of all the blocks to print(and adjust size if you
like).  Since I knew the author, I emailed her and asked permission to make
a master copy and have it bound at my local Staples shop. This way I can
have the patterns without ruining my autographed copy of the book and make
notations on the master copy.

This was more of a courtesy really, as I could have done it and no one would
have been the wiser.  The author gave me the permission and wished me well
on my journey.

With the internet and email, this is a handy way to gain approval for
copying if the book is current.

Karen

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Re: [lace] Pattern copyright

[Avital]

I think this is clearly a breach of copyright. Even if you were making the ornaments 
yourself to sell, the law of most countries stipulates that instructions/patterns are 
for personal use only. Making ornaments and selling them is not personal use; it's 
commercial use, even if you're doing it for a charity. As for making kits out of 
copyrighted materials, that would be unwise. It is a breach of copyright and in many 
countries you could be sued or at least receive a nasty letter from the publisher's 
lawyer. You are redistributing copyrighted materials without permission and profiting 
from them.

Avital

> 
> This isn't strictly lace, but same copyright subject.  I bought a book last
> year about making beaded christmas tree ornaments(amongst other things) and
> am planning to sell some at a Christmas Fair I am helping to organize to
> raise money for the Care Home for which I work.  As I have so little spare
> time I wondered about making up kits to sell with the beads & thread and one
> self-drawn diagram of how to thread them, as shown in the book, which has
> lots of other diagrams etc.  Would this be a breach of copyright?
> Joan from Yorkshire
> 

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re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Bev Walker]

Hi everyone

Steph wrote:

>copyright.  A completed piece of lace is a 'derivative work' from the
>pricking, and is subject to just the same copyright limitations as a
>straight copy of the pricking.  So you should ask the copyright holder for
>
Fun with copyright. I see it this way:  if a pricking is published with
the intent that a reader would use it to produce a piece of lace, then the
designer would not own copyright to the resulting piece, the one you made
and hold in your hand; the pattern, yes, the lace itself no - because the
pattern is intended as a means to an end that is not unique - it is meant
for anyone (any lacemaker) to use, and the results will vary even
minutely, with each lacemaker (unlike an original artwork, which is unique
to the artist). So - I think posting a picture of your lace made from
someone else's design, on the web, is not violating copyright. It would be
fraudulent if you give the impression that the lace is your original
design - so to protect your self and give due credit, clearly state the
source of the pattern.

bye for now
Bev in Sooke, BC (west coast of Canada)

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Weronika Patena]

> It's my understanding that Read considers her *diagrams* of the braids to be
> copyrighted but not the braids themselves.  In Sandi Woods' class, she said
> she specifically got Pat's permission to do diagrams like Pat's for her own
> book.  If you publish diagrams, I believe you need to develop your own style
> that looks "different enough" from hers to be clearly your own.  Of course,
> there's only so many ways you can draw thread diagrams

Exactly...  I find it hard to believe they have copyright on the "a line per
pair, crossing lines=cloth stitch, little line across=add twist" diagram
style...  Is it OK to use the diagram style with different colors for different
stitches (I don't remember how it goes or where it's from right now, but it
seems pretty popular) without worrying about copyright? 

Weronika

-- 
Weronika Patena
Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA
http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Weronika Patena]

> > you raised a couple of interesting questions. Copyright law recognizes 
> > that there is a process by which a copyright image or creation becomes 
> > changed, changed again, and further changed, and eventually is no 
> > longer the original image or creation at all. Unfortunately there is no 
> > hard-and-fast way to decide exactly where "adaptation" stops and  
> > "inspired by" begins.

Yep.  I've been doing a lot of changing patterns from books, but almost no
actual designing from scratch, so I'm getting into the gray area...

> More thoughts here -  I know that in the past we have agreed that if you make 
> a piece of lace and put the finished piece on your website you should 
> acknowlege the source of the pattern.  If you adapt a piece and put it up you 
> acknowlege the source of the original pattern and then explain your adaptation.  We 
> got that far last time.

That seems reasonable.  

> Also, from the Mrs Channer mat discussion (and please let's not go there 
> again), we know that whilst the original pricking or photo of a piece of lace may 
> be available for us to copy from say a musuem collection, once someone true's 
> up that pricking or makes a pricking from the photo (with permission) their 
> new pricking now becomes their own work and their copyright.

I.e. if you use their pricking to make your design, it's just an adaptation, but
you can still go to the museum or look at a picture of the lace and make your
own pricking, right?  
The problem comes in if you've seen the copyrighted pricking before making your
own, since it's hard to tell whether you're copying your memory of it...

> Now here is a thought - I have a pattern which I bought last year for some 
> free lace.  Now the 'pricking' is not a pricking in the true sense of the word - 
> it is simply a the outline drawing of the pin lines with no holes marked. 
> (Yes, very free lace indeed).  When I make this lace I will obviously be 
> completing my own interpretation of the lace because how and where I put the pins 
> are 
> my ideas and also which braids I use within the lace are my own ideas.
> 
> This means that the original idea for the lace is that of the designer but 
> the making of the lace becomes my own interpretation even if I try to copy the 
> picture supplied with the pattern because there are no pin marks to go by so I 
> cannot truely copy reproduce the lace.
> 
> So, my question here is where is the copyright?
> 
> If I'm right then I own copyright on my finished piece of lace because I have 
> no choice but to use my interpretation on it but I have no copyright on the 
> shape (ie outline) of the free lace because that came from the outline that is 
> the pattern.

That makes sense.  However, you can see the outline in your finished lace, so
anyone who wanted it could just look at your finished lace picture (which you're
allowed to show them, since it's your copyright), outline it and use it as a
pattern, right?

Weronika

-- 
Weronika Patena
Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA
http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Clay Blackwell]

Steph's example is absolutely correct in this country as
well.  But here, it is possible to buy the original AND to
purchase the residuals as well.   As an example, a young
artist in Virginia painted a picture of a scene depicting an
historic event.  A doctor in the town bought the painting
AND the residuals.  The artist continued to paint, and
became quite successful, with *prints* of his paintings
(signed and numbered, but NOT the originals!)  fetching
handsome sums.  The doctor continues to own the right to
print the artist's first painting, and continues to make
money on this every year...  though not a fortune, by any
stretch of the imagination.  But collectors love having that
"first"...

Established writers, painters, lace designers, etc., etc.,
are more savy and know better than to sign away their
rights.  Caveat to the uninitiated...

Clay


- Original Message - 
From: "Steph Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations


> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:55:06 -0700, Weronika wrote:
> >On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 08:29:12PM -0700, Adele Shaak
wrote:
> >> Your bookmark sounds like an adaptation to me.
> >
> >Which means: I can put a picture on my website, but not
the pricking, and I
> >should name the source - correct?
>
> Not in my opinion.  Many people do this, but I believe it
is a breach of
> copyright.  A completed piece of lace is a 'derivative
work' from the
> pricking, and is subject to just the same copyright
limitations as a
> straight copy of the pricking.  So you should ask the
copyright holder for
> permission to display the picture of the finished lace.
I've asked quite a
> lot of designers for permission for pieces on my website,
and so far no-one
> has said no.  Most look on it as good publicity I think.
>
> To help understand why this is so, consider a similar
situation.  I bought
> an oil painting by E B Watts of a teapot shaped like a
cauliflower in a
> field of carrots.  The painting I bought is the one and
only oil original.
> However, I didn't buy the copyright to the image, only the
physical painting
> itself.  So E B Watts can (and I believe has) sell prints
of the painting I
> own.  She can produce Christmas cards with that image on,
I can't.   The
> image still belongs to her, unless she chooses to sell it.
This is
> important because obviously it enables her to continue to
earn money from
> her idea.
>
> --
> I love children, especially when they cry, for then
someone takes them away.
> Nancy Mitford
> Steph Peters, Manchester, England
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Scanned by WinProxy
> http://www.Ositis.com/
>
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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Steph Peters]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:55:06 -0700, Weronika wrote:
>On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 08:29:12PM -0700, Adele Shaak wrote:
>> Your bookmark sounds like an adaptation to me.
>
>Which means: I can put a picture on my website, but not the pricking, and I
>should name the source - correct?

Not in my opinion.  Many people do this, but I believe it is a breach of
copyright.  A completed piece of lace is a 'derivative work' from the
pricking, and is subject to just the same copyright limitations as a
straight copy of the pricking.  So you should ask the copyright holder for
permission to display the picture of the finished lace.  I've asked quite a
lot of designers for permission for pieces on my website, and so far no-one
has said no.  Most look on it as good publicity I think.

To help understand why this is so, consider a similar situation.  I bought
an oil painting by E B Watts of a teapot shaped like a cauliflower in a
field of carrots.  The painting I bought is the one and only oil original.
However, I didn't buy the copyright to the image, only the physical painting
itself.  So E B Watts can (and I believe has) sell prints of the painting I
own.  She can produce Christmas cards with that image on, I can't.   The
image still belongs to her, unless she chooses to sell it.  This is
important because obviously it enables her to continue to earn money from
her idea.

--
I love children, especially when they cry, for then someone takes them away.
Nancy Mitford
Steph Peters, Manchester, England
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Thelacebee]

In a message dated 24/08/2004 19:54:03 GMT Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> >Less it is written that this book is for eduction, you are alowed to make 
> a
> >copy to thouse you a teaching to lace.
> >Hope that can be to some help
> >Dorte
> >

Dorte,

I like that caveat - that you can say that your book is for education and can 
use it to teach.  That is a generous touch.


Regards

Liz in London

I'm back blogging my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link 
or going to http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Thelacebee]

Here's another thought, we are allowed under british copyright law to 
photocopy a percentage of a book (which can't exceed certain qualifications, in the 
uk it's no more than about a third of the book or x number of articles).  

So, I get my book 'A visual introduction to Bucks Point Lace' by Geraldine 
Stott.  And I decided to work my way through the book by doing all the patterns 
from page 1 to the end.  I'm going to do this because I want to master Bucks 
Point.

There are 40 patterns in this book and only 90 pages - this means that I am 
going to photocopy over half the book!  This, under normal UK laws is a breach 
of copyright.  This is why lacemaking is such a strange subject for copyright.

But, Geraldine Stott is a wonderful woman.  On page 'v' of the book is this 
wonderful paragraph.

'Prickings

>From experience I find there are many lacemakers who have neither pens, 
skills nor time to prick and draw out complicated Bucks Point patterns.  The 
following is the method I use constantly: photocopy your patter (acceptable only for 
your own personal use); cut out pricking; .'

She then goes on to say that if you don't like that method then prick through 
the photocopy etc.

This is a practical woman who makes lace and by putting this caveat into her 
book has bypass the issue on photocopying that we have in the UK that would 
affect being able to use the patterns.

Something that came up off the list is the fact that as a craft, we have a 
strange issue over photocopying because it is taken as the common way to copy a 
pattern rather than trace and prick (some how I think I would have given up by 
now as my tracing is terrible).

Just a thought.  

Regards

Liz in London

I'm back blogging my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link 
or going to http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[nerakmacd]

And don't forget that each country has their own copyright rules, meaning
that whatever US copyright rules apply to the US, doesn't necessarily apply
to your country.  You may have a copy of a book produced in the US, and
copyrighted there, but in your country it might be quite allright for you to
copy it.

Copyright laws are different and everyone needs to be reminded that though
this internet is a global society, each of us has to follow our own
countries rules about copyright, not the US's only.

Karen
who is in Canada

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Weronika Patena]

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 08:29:12PM -0700, Adele Shaak wrote:
> Your bookmark sounds like an adaptation to me.

Which means: I can put a picture on my website, but not the pricking, and I
should name the source - correct?

> If you had looked at a photo of a finished piece and said to yourself 
> "gosh, I bet I could draw a pattern like that" and then did, without 
> using any published pattern as a guide, then that is your creation and 
> the copyright is yours. But, you used the published pattern to help you 
> create your own pricking and so you are adapting the published pattern 
> and you may only use that for yourself. 

Ah.  
If I do own the pattern and have looked at it (without purposefully memorizing
it), and then closed the book and drew my own, is that "using the pattern as a
guide" or not?  I'm talking about *very* simple lace pieces for which it's very
easy to draw the pattern by just looking at the lace, or even without that. 

By the way, I'm getting into those details just to understand things better -
I'm not trying to insist that it's OK for me to do the things I'm writing about. 

> It doesn't matter whether you 
> used the pattern by scanning it or by copying the dots by hand - it's 
> still somebody else's pattern. Putting that pricking onto your website 
> is a violation of copyright because you are basically republishing 
> somebody else's pattern. But, you could put photos of your finished 
> lace onto your website, with a credit to the book.

Yep.  That seems right.  

> >Also, are all designs in books automatically copyright?
> 
> If the design was done for the book, the designer (might be the author, 
> might be somebody else) holds the copyright. But, if a book shows, for 
> example, historical pieces of lace, nobody gets copyright on that 
> design just because they put it in a book, but there is still a 
> copyright on the *presentation* of that design - the photograph or 
> drawing that appears in the book. So, you couldn't just scan the photo 
> straight out of the book and put it up on your website, for example, 
> but you could take a look at the photo and use the old lace as 
> inspiration for a new pattern you drew yourself, and you would have the 
> copyright on that.

Ah.  That seems reasonable.  Does it work even if my "new pattern" lace piece 
ends up very similar to the old one? 

> The difference is between illustrating a simple technique and a design. 
> For example, if you learn from the book how to do the meandering braid, 
> then you are welcome to use the meander design in your own patterns, 
> just as you would be if you learned, say, cloth stitch or half stitch 
> from the book. 

That's what I thought. 

> But, you have to draw your own pattern, even if it is 
> just a straight strip with the meander technique in it. You can't just 
> copy (hand or scanning) the ones from the book. 

Right.  
Just to get into details, what's the difference between hand copying and drawing
my own?  If I'm not looking at the original while doing it, does it count as my
own, even though I'm using the same style of diagram?  It just happens to be my
favourite diagram style (at least for some things), and there aren't many of them...

> Designs are more 
> complex and may include many techniques - the actual designs, like "Tie 
> Ends" or the "Braid Sampler" are of course copyright.

Yep. 

> These are just my opinions based on a fair amount of time spent reading 
> up on copyright (and I have a friend who juggles copyright laws for a 
> living). The reason lawyers make lots of money is that there are always 
> fine shadings of meaning and grey areas that may be argued until the 
> cows come home. And, as Stephanie has pointed out, the copyright laws 
> differ depending on which country you're in.

I doubt we get many lawsuits on lace designs, so I was mostly wondering what
people in the lace community feel is and isn't OK.

> But anyway, I hope this helps.

Definitely.  Thanks!

Weronika

-- 
Weronika Patena
Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA
http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika

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RE: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Panza, Robin]

>>>For example, in the Milanese books by Read and Kincaid there are lots of
Milanese braid designsCan I use these braids in my patterns (including
"patterns" that are just a straight piece of braid for a bookmark )
without copyright infringement?  If I draw diagrams by myself, can I put
them on my webpage?<<<

It's my understanding that Read considers her *diagrams* of the braids to be
copyrighted but not the braids themselves.  In Sandi Woods' class, she said
she specifically got Pat's permission to do diagrams like Pat's for her own
book.  If you publish diagrams, I believe you need to develop your own style
that looks "different enough" from hers to be clearly your own.  Of course,
there's only so many ways you can draw thread diagrams

As for how much modification it takes to qualify as outside the copyright,
that's where you get into case law (the rightness and wrongness is
determined by what cases have been won and lost) and I believe there is no
hard answer.

Robin P.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Thelacebee]

In a message dated 24/08/2004 05:58:41 GMT Standard Time, Adele writes:

> Hi Weronika -
> 
> you raised a couple of interesting questions. Copyright law recognizes 
> that there is a process by which a copyright image or creation becomes 
> changed, changed again, and further changed, and eventually is no 
> longer the original image or creation at all. Unfortunately there is no 
> hard-and-fast way to decide exactly where "adaptation" stops and  
> "inspired by" begins.

More thoughts here -  I know that in the past we have agreed that if you make 
a piece of lace and put the finished piece on your website you should 
acknowlege the source of the pattern.  If you adapt a piece and put it up you 
acknowlege the source of the original pattern and then explain your adaptation.  We 
got that far last time.

Also, from the Mrs Channer mat discussion (and please let's not go there 
again), we know that whilst the original pricking or photo of a piece of lace may 
be available for us to copy from say a musuem collection, once someone true's 
up that pricking or makes a pricking from the photo (with permission) their 
new pricking now becomes their own work and their copyright.

Now here is a thought - I have a pattern which I bought last year for some 
free lace.  Now the 'pricking' is not a pricking in the true sense of the word - 
it is simply a the outline drawing of the pin lines with no holes marked. 
(Yes, very free lace indeed).  When I make this lace I will obviously be 
completing my own interpretation of the lace because how and where I put the pins are 
my ideas and also which braids I use within the lace are my own ideas.

This means that the original idea for the lace is that of the designer but 
the making of the lace becomes my own interpretation even if I try to copy the 
picture supplied with the pattern because there are no pin marks to go by so I 
cannot truely copy reproduce the lace.

So, my question here is where is the copyright?

If I'm right then I own copyright on my finished piece of lace because I have 
no choice but to use my interpretation on it but I have no copyright on the 
shape (ie outline) of the free lace because that came from the outline that is 
the pattern.

What do you guys think?

Regards

Liz in London

I'm back blogging my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link 
or going to http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee

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Re: [lace] pattern copyright and adaptations

[Adele Shaak]

Hi Weronika -
you raised a couple of interesting questions. Copyright law recognizes 
that there is a process by which a copyright image or creation becomes 
changed, changed again, and further changed, and eventually is no 
longer the original image or creation at all. Unfortunately there is no 
hard-and-fast way to decide exactly where "adaptation" stops and  
"inspired by" begins.

If I take an edging pattern I found in a book, and make a bookmark 
pattern that basically
consists of two pieces of that edging, with some changes, is that an 
adaptation
of the pattern, or what is it called?  And can I put the pricking on 
my website?
What if I made my pricking by scanning the book pattern and making 
changes with
a graphics program?  And what if I drew it by myself without any 
scanning?
Your bookmark sounds like an adaptation to me.
If you had looked at a photo of a finished piece and said to yourself 
"gosh, I bet I could draw a pattern like that" and then did, without 
using any published pattern as a guide, then that is your creation and 
the copyright is yours. But, you used the published pattern to help you 
create your own pricking and so you are adapting the published pattern 
and you may only use that for yourself. It doesn't matter whether you 
used the pattern by scanning it or by copying the dots by hand - it's 
still somebody else's pattern. Putting that pricking onto your website 
is a violation of copyright because you are basically republishing 
somebody else's pattern. But, you could put photos of your finished 
lace onto your website, with a credit to the book.

Also, are all designs in books automatically copyright?
If the design was done for the book, the designer (might be the author, 
might be somebody else) holds the copyright. But, if a book shows, for 
example, historical pieces of lace, nobody gets copyright on that 
design just because they put it in a book, but there is still a 
copyright on the *presentation* of that design - the photograph or 
drawing that appears in the book. So, you couldn't just scan the photo 
straight out of the book and put it up on your website, for example, 
but you could take a look at the photo and use the old lace as 
inspiration for a new pattern you drew yourself, and you would have the 
copyright on that.

For example, in the
Milanese books by Read and Kincaid there are lots of Milanese braid 
designs - I
guess I don't really know, but I was assuming that they didn't 
personally design
all the braids, but that some of them were just traditional Milanese 
braids.
Can I use these braids in my patterns (including "patterns" that are 
just a
straight piece of braid for a bookmark ) without copyright 
infringement?  If
I draw diagrams by myself, can I put them on my webpage?
The difference is between illustrating a simple technique and a design. 
For example, if you learn from the book how to do the meandering braid, 
then you are welcome to use the meander design in your own patterns, 
just as you would be if you learned, say, cloth stitch or half stitch 
from the book. But, you have to draw your own pattern, even if it is 
just a straight strip with the meander technique in it. You can't just 
copy (hand or scanning) the ones from the book. Designs are more 
complex and may include many techniques - the actual designs, like "Tie 
Ends" or the "Braid Sampler" are of course copyright.

These are just my opinions based on a fair amount of time spent reading 
up on copyright (and I have a friend who juggles copyright laws for a 
living). The reason lawyers make lots of money is that there are always 
fine shadings of meaning and grey areas that may be argued until the 
cows come home. And, as Stephanie has pointed out, the copyright laws 
differ depending on which country you're in.

But anyway, I hope this helps.
Adele
North Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)
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RE: [lace] Pattern lifting

[David Collyer]

G;day Clay,
I'm assuming, when you say plastic, that you're talking about a wire hanger
that is encased in plastic?
Woops! Yes, that's right - almost too light weight to hold any clothes and 
easily bent with pliers. Just make a "U" shape at the end of the longer bit 
(which is the bit on the angle, not the flat bottom)
David


Clay
Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: David Collyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> There's an even better way which works in a similar fashion.  Got to your
> supermarket and buy a bunch of those very cheap plastic coat-hangers (we
> can get about 10 for $1 here). Then with wire cutters or pliers, simply
cut
> each one in half, throwing away the hook bit. Now bend the cut end to
make
> each half into a giant safety pin shape.
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RE: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi David -

I'm assuming, when you say plastic, that you're talking about a wire hanger
that is encased in plastic?

Clay

Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> [Original Message]
> From: David Collyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> There's an even better way which works in a similar fashion.  Got to your 
> supermarket and buy a bunch of those very cheap plastic coat-hangers (we 
> can get about 10 for $1 here). Then with wire cutters or pliers, simply
cut 
> each one in half, throwing away the hook bit. Now bend the cut end to
make 
> each half into a giant safety pin shape.

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re: [lace] pattern lifting

[Bev Walker]

Hi everyon

I have had trouble with the lace lifting, but not the pattern lifting
except when placing a flat card on a curved (i.e. cookie) pillow top -
there are a couple of things I usually do, might be worth considering:

I use a workcloth with a hole cut in the middle, to place the bobbins
through for all the but patterns with 'lots' of pairs - the cloth can be
pinned firmly in place and this would keep the pattern flat too.
I now seldom use a pattern on card - most often I photocopy the
pattern onto plain paper and that becomes the pricking - even and
especially for Buckspoint - no prepricking necessary, and I'm going to
toss the pricking afterwards anyway - and the paper should conform to
whatever pillow surface (i.e. lie flat). I make all sorts of laces, all
sorts of styles, all sorts of experimenting (and master of none, LOL)
happy lacing
bye for now
Bev in Sooke BC (west coast of Canada)

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RE: [lace] Pattern lifting

[David Collyer]

Dear Karisse, Clay and others,
Since you're working with Midlands bobbins, you're in luck!  The easiest
way to keep your pillow tidy is to go out to your nearest craft or knitting
shop and buy a bunch of stitch holders
There's an even better way which works in a similar fashion.  Got to your 
supermarket and buy a bunch of those very cheap plastic coat-hangers (we 
can get about 10 for $1 here). Then with wire cutters or pliers, simply cut 
each one in half, throwing away the hook bit. Now bend the cut end to make 
each half into a giant safety pin shape.
Each of these will hold about 30 bobbins. Right now I'm working on a large 
Chantilly edging and have about 150 pairs on the go - not quite all hung in 
yet - but I already have a stack of 7 of these bobbin holders going.
One further VERY IMPORTANT hint. When you load up a pin with the 30 or so 
bobbins, before you drag it around to one side, place a large hat pin or 
divider pin about an inch from the edge of your work at a 45 degree angle 
downwards from it. This way there is not undue tension forced upon the end 
pins and it also prevents those hundreds of threads becoming tangled in 
your work.
Love
David in Ballarat

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Re: [lace] Pattern lifting -- pinning methods

[Alice Howell]

At 08:44 AM 7/22/2004, you wrote:
. As I
have worked down the pattern the card stock worked up off the pillow but the
lace itself did not work up the pins. I slanted the edge pins to the side
and back so the lace was held tight against the pricking and did not move up
the pins. But the pricking card itself moved up the pins.
Hi,
I've been gone for 5 days so am a bit behind in my email reading -- and 
reading as fast as I can to catch up.  I just had to speak up on this subject.

During the various classes I've had over the  years, I've been shown two 
ways of pinning down a pattern that have not been mentioned here.

The first method takes two pins.  The first pin is pushed through the 
pattern into the pillow -- halfway down.  Then the top half is bent over so 
the head is on the cloth pillow cover.  The second pin is put 
perpendicularly to the first with it dipping into and out of the cover on 
one side of the first pin, then over the pin, and into the cloth cover on 
the other side of the pin.  The second pin keeps the first pin from being 
able to lift up.  A pattern pinned with 4-6-8 of these pin duos will not lift.

Method two takes one pin but needs a slightly flexible pillow cover.  Dip 
the point of the pin in and out of the pillow cover right next to the 
pattern, and then pin in the edge of the pattern, pushed all the way 
down.  Do this all around the pattern.  Thus the pattern is caught under a 
little fold of the pillow fabric and will keep the pattern from being able 
to lift.

Happy lacing,
Alice in Oregon -- where we are roasting with the rest of the west coast USA.
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Re: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Sue Babbs]

> I seem to have a different problem, that of the lace moving up the
> pins when I do Bucks point. My pricking stays flat (working on a 24"
> cookie pillow currently), but the lace has lifted maybe 4-5
> millimeters (a bit less than 1/4 inch) off the surface of the
> pricking. I do place the edge pins as described by Jane, and I think
> my middle forest of pins are fairly vertical, and yet the lace rises
> up!
>

I'm assuming this is a fairly wide piece and that you have bobbins stacked
either side. If so, I find a trick taught by Ulrike Loehr helpful. At either
side of the lace, next to the furthest worked edge pin, place a large pin
(eg hatpin, divider pin) angled at about 45 degrees. The point of the pin
goes in the pricking card about 1/4inch or so from the  sloping edge pin.
The pin lies parallel to the edge of the lace, with the head of the pin away
from the worked lace. I am trying to draw a diagram, and hope that it comes
through intelligibly!

   | Lace|

   | Lace|

   | Lace|

   | Lace|

.  | Lace| .
| |
| |
| |
| |
HeadHead
of pin   of pin

  The thread from each bobbin is then taken under this angled pin as the
bobbin goes out to the stack. Obviously the large pin has to be moved as the
lace grows.

Hope this makes sense!
Sue

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Re: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Mary L. Tod]

At 1:05 AM +0100 7/23/04, Jane Partridge wrote:
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Karisse Moore
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
But the pricking card itself moved up the pins.
This actually is the problem of having so many pins close to each other
- in Torchon, where the pins are more widely spaced, the problem is one
of the lace rising up the pins. With Bucks, the card rises off the
pillow. I was taught (by Jennifer Ford) to correct this by making sure
that the edge pins are slanted correctly (slightly out, slightly back)
and the pins between are all absolutely vertical. This is quite often
difficult to achieve when you are working on a flat pillow, especially
as you tend to work with it on a slope. The pins must be perpendicular
to the pillow, so if the back edge is raised, it means placing them
towards you, rather than away! Once you start working in this way, you
will find that the card will settle back to the pillow again, even if
you have a section that remains slightly raised.
I seem to have a different problem, that of the lace moving up the 
pins when I do Bucks point. My pricking stays flat (working on a 24" 
cookie pillow currently), but the lace has lifted maybe 4-5 
millimeters (a bit less than 1/4 inch) off the surface of the 
pricking. I do place the edge pins as described by Jane, and I think 
my middle forest of pins are fairly vertical, and yet the lace rises 
up!

Despite this, I have just last night completed working all the pins 
in my Bucks point fan, started in Louise Colgan's class at last 
year's IOLI convention. I may try to get it mounted this weekend. I 
am so excited to have finished this huge project, and to have 
completed it before this year's convention!

--
Mary, in Baltimore, MD
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Re: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Steph Peters]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:38:08 -0400, Clay wrote:
>I've not worked with 300 bobbins at a time, but I can tell you how to tame
>your bobbins when you have more than can be accomodated at one time on your
>pillow...
>
>Since you're working with Midlands bobbins, you're in luck!  The easiest
>way to keep your pillow tidy is to go out to your nearest craft or knitting
>shop and buy a bunch of stitch holders used in knitting to hold knitting
>stitches when you take the knitting off the needle.  They look like very
>large safety pins, and will accomodate 8 - 10 pairs of bobbins when they
>are run through the spangles.  When you gather up your bobbins like this,
>the bundles can be stacked on top of each other on one side of the pillow
>or the other, leaving plenty of space in the center for the bobbins you're
>working.  To figure out how many of these holders you need, count the
>bobbins on your pillow and divide by 16...  for 150 bobbins, I'd buy ten. 
>You can always buy more as you tackle wider projects.

Stitch holders are good, but any pillow only has space for stacking a given
number. Having worked with 300 bobbins at one time on a 24 inch cookie
pillow, I exceeded the stitch holder stacking space available on my pillow.
So I moved on to the next technique - using a lace to tie bundles of bobbins
together.  I thread a lace through the bobbins for one area of the lace, tie
the ends of the lace together so the bobbins are in a bundle, and then swing
them out of the way.  The bundle takes up a lot less space than the same
number of bobbins on stitch holders.  

There are old pictures of Bucks lacemakers with bundles of bobbins tied up
out of the way on their big bolster style pillows, so it's in keeping with
the piece Karisse wants to make. 
--
And now, the current score... Deep Space 9, Babylon 5
Steph Peters  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tatting, lace & stitching page 

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Re: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Sally Schoenberg]

Another way to secure your pattern

For each corner of your pattern, run thread through a small hole in the
corner, then out to a pin somewhere at the edge of your pillow so that the
corner is held flat. Repeat several times from the pattern corner to the pin
and back again for each corner.  Tie the beginning end and the bitter end
together so the corner mooring is secure.  Bobbins don't catch on the thread
mooring like they do on pins, and the tension of the mooring threads holds
the corners tight and the pattern down next to the pillow.  Mooring the
first corner is tricky, but it gets easier as each corner is tied down to
the edge of the pillow (keep trying!).  If this makes absolutely no sense, I
can draw a picture and post it on my website.  Let me know!  I really do
want to get this idea across because I think it's just the neatest way to
keep a pricking in its place.

Sally Schoenberg
Anchorage Alaska

- Original Message - 
From: "Panza, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Arachne (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: [lace] Pattern lifting


> Have you pinned down the pricking?  When I pin down the corners (and
longer
> sides, if necessary), the pattern can't ride up because the pins are
holding
> it down.  They're pushed all the way down flush with the pillow, so the
> threads won't catch on them.
>
> Robin P.
> Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
> http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/
>
> -Original Message-
> I have worked many yards of buckspoint lace on roller pillows and not had
> the problem of the pricking card coming up from the pillow. But when I
work
> a pattern on a cookie type pillow I have this problem.
>
> -
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>

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RE: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi Karisse!

I've not worked with 300 bobbins at a time, but I can tell you how to tame
your bobbins when you have more than can be accomodated at one time on your
pillow...

Since you're working with Midlands bobbins, you're in luck!  The easiest
way to keep your pillow tidy is to go out to your nearest craft or knitting
shop and buy a bunch of stitch holders used in knitting to hold knitting
stitches when you take the knitting off the needle.  They look like very
large safety pins, and will accomodate 8 - 10 pairs of bobbins when they
are run through the spangles.  When you gather up your bobbins like this,
the bundles can be stacked on top of each other on one side of the pillow
or the other, leaving plenty of space in the center for the bobbins you're
working.  To figure out how many of these holders you need, count the
bobbins on your pillow and divide by 16...  for 150 bobbins, I'd buy ten. 
You can always buy more as you tackle wider projects.

For projects where you choose to use "Thumpers", or continental bobbins
which don't have spangles, most lace vendors carry a bobbin holder that is
wood and has an elastic cord that holds the bobbins in place - and in
order.  They're more expensive than the knitting stitch holders, but the
knitting stitch holders just don't work with bobbins that don't have
spangles.

 This is also a wonderful way to prepare your pillow for moving it - for
example, to a class or demonstration.  After the bobbins are all bundled,
scoot the bundles up a tad to take the tension off the threads, and then
secure the bundles to the pillow with a cover cloth and/or elastic strip. 
It will only take a few minutes to have your pillow back in working shape
when you get to your destination.

Hope this all makes sense!!  

Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



> [Original Message]
> From: Karisse Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 7/22/2004 11:45:12 AM
> Subject: [lace] Pattern lifting
>
> My dear friends I am so glad you are there to correct and inform. I am
> working on a rectangle bucks point pattern that is about 4X6 inches. I
have
> it on a relatively flat cookie pillow. I didn't have any wrinkles in the
> pattern to pin out on the edges when I put the pattern on the pillow. As I
> have worked down the pattern the card stock worked up off the pillow but
the
> lace itself did not work up the pins. I slanted the edge pins to the side
> and back so the lace was held tight against the pricking and did not move
up
> the pins. But the pricking card itself moved up the pins. I was wondering
if
> a pattern like this was worked on a bolster pillow, if the pricking card
> would stay on the bolster pillow. I have worked many yards of buckspoint
> lace on roller pillows and not had the problem of the pricking card coming
> up from the pillow. But when I work a pattern on a cookie type pillow I
have
> this problem.
>
> I can't see how one would take care of all the bobbins on a bolster pillow
> when you are working a large pattern like this that uses so many pairs of
> bobbins. I have midland spangled bobbins because I like to use them with
my
> roller pillows and my cookie pillows to do bucks point but if I went to
> using a huge bolster pillow to make this wide lace what do I do with the
300
> to 400 bobbins while I am working with the 10 to 20? How did they keep the
> bobbins from all coming down in front? Did they wrap the extra bobbins in
> cover clothes and pin them to the side? Did they tie them together and pin
> them to the side?
>
> Has anyone worked a pattern wider than 4 inches and used more than 300
> bobbins on a bolster pillow? Thanks for your help and your ideas. And I
> think I am "bonkers" too just to think about making some lace like this.
OK,
> bucks thumper is what I meant. Thanks for the smile.
>
> I have Christine Springettes book on Fine Buckinghamshire Point lace
> patterns and I am thinking about making some of the lace in this book but
I
> don't want to fight the patterns coming off the pillow and so I was
> wondering if I would have to make a huge bolster pillow like I have seen
in
> some pictures of ladies making point lace.
>
> Karisse
> Killeen, Tx where the heat and humidity are making me a litttle "bonkers"
>
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RE: [lace] Pattern lifting

[Panza, Robin]

Have you pinned down the pricking?  When I pin down the corners (and longer
sides, if necessary), the pattern can't ride up because the pins are holding
it down.  They're pushed all the way down flush with the pillow, so the
threads won't catch on them.

Robin P.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/

-Original Message-
I have worked many yards of buckspoint lace on roller pillows and not had
the problem of the pricking card coming up from the pillow. But when I work
a pattern on a cookie type pillow I have this problem.

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Re: [lace] pattern question

[Ruth Budge]

There's a picture of the Bucks version in "A Visual Introduction to Bucks Point
Lace" by Geraldine Stott - page 78 in my copy.

I've seen the Torchon version, but can't for the life of me remember where -
someone else will know.

Ruth Budge (Sydney, Australia)
rick &sharon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:A fellow lace-maker would like to do
the floral torchon "waterlily" pattern
by Geraldine Stott. Has anyone else attempted this pattern? Is there a
picture of the finished piece anywhere? Is this a torchon version of a
Bucks pattern? If so, where can we get a picture of that? :) any
information would be appreciated. Sharon on rainy Vancouver Island

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[lace] Re: lace pattern with hearts

[Tamara P. Duvall]

On Jan 13, 2004, at 21:38, Tracey wrote:

Help is needed.  My great Aunt has asked me to make her a handkerchief 
with a
lace edge.  She wants one with red hearts and scallop white edging.
1) There's a lovely -- and not too dificult -- 21 prs edging with 
scallops and hearts (and spiders ) in the IOLI Bulletin vol 17, #2 
(winter '96). It's Doris Southard's re-draft of a Finnish pattern. It 
is shown as all white, but the hearts can be worked -- with no trouble 
at all -- in red, as requested.  The pattern has corners worked out 
and, reduced, would make a very nice hankie edging.

You can see the edging I made -- sans corners, and in *black* and red 
-- on Lori's website:

http://lace.lacefairy.com/Arachne/Pincushions2.html

I don't know where you are ("foggy" not being enough; we're all in the 
fog, one way or another ) but, if you're in US and a member of IOLI, 
you ought to be able to borrow the issue of the Bulletin from IOLI's 
library.

2) There's also a nice, "hearty" pattern in Claire Burkhard's "50 New 
Bobbin Lace Patterns" but, IMO, it's less suitable for a hankie, and 
might be more difficult to make in 2 different colours, especially on 
the straight (I've done it in its round version). And, for all it uses 
only 9 pairs, you'd need to fiddle with the pricking more, to have the 
hearts on all 4 sides. That book is also available from the IOLI's 
library, should you chose to try that pattern.

3) The Retournac Museum has a beautiful pattern with "hearts", scallops 
and corners, where the hearts could also be worked in a different 
colour. But the "hearts" are a bit too "v-shaped"; they'd need to be 
"beefed up" -- by changing the pin-dots -- to really look like hearts 
(I plan to do that, but haven't yet). You can look at the pattern at:

http://www.ville-retournac.fr/musee/anglais/indexang.htm

it's packet #7

4) Corners have been worked out for "Danish Little Heart", but it's a 
PG lace and if you're a beginner *and* under pressure for time, then 
perhaps this is not the best time to start learning that, for all it's 
not a very difficult pattern, as PG goes...

5) Another option would be to find a straight pattern *without* 
corners, make a bit extra of lace (twice the width for every corner) 
and gather the extra lace at corners. That's the older way of tackling 
corners, and very pleasing to the eye, as it's less flat than lace with 
corners worked out.

-
Tamara P Duvall
Lexington, Virginia,  USA
Formerly of Warsaw, Poland
http://lorien.emufarm.org/~tpd/
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