Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[michael kapelko]

I personally read Wang Rui books and recommend those (found in the first
link).

2012/12/6 Peterakos 

> Hello
>
> Here are the books + quick guide:
> http://www.openscenegraph.com/index.php/documentation/books
>
> And you can also download the source code of many examples using svn:
> http://www.openscenegraph.com/index.php/downloads/code-repositories
>
> thnx.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Peterakos]

Hello

Here are the books + quick guide:
http://www.openscenegraph.com/index.php/documentation/books

And you can also download the source code of many examples using svn:
http://www.openscenegraph.com/index.php/downloads/code-repositories

thnx.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Speed]

Paul Speed wrote:
> 
> Robert Osfield wrote:
>> On 8/27/07, Jean-Sébastien Guay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 P.S.
 It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is
 not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
 has it  occured to anyone else?
>>> Yes, me. No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about
>>> 3 times in the last week...
>> Mailman on the new dreamhost server doesn't seem to be as reliable as
>> it should be. I am no mail, mailman or web admin expert so I can't say
>> why exact these problems exist.  Is it a dreamhost problem on
>> delivery?  Is is peoples on mail servers rejecting mail?
>>
>> Just a point of reference, the last time we moved mailing list servers
>> there was quite a bit of fallout w.r.t the mail server being
>> blacklisted so people wouldn't receive mail from it.  The blacklisting
>> can be a local issue or one centrally managed.
>>
>> I suspect this is an issue with false positives where spam filters and
>> blacklisting is used as much  as anything else.
>>
>> Robert.
> 
> For what it's worth, I too have missed several e-mails from the list... 
> some from you specifically.  I know about them because I see the responses.
> 
> I only mention it because a) I have basically no spam filtering at all, 
> and b) I receive many other messages (from you specifically) just fine.
> 
> Just adding evidence (or removing possible red herrings) for anyone 
> trying to debug this issue.
> 
> -Paul

Interesting that I'm just now seeing this.  I didn't realize how many 
messages I was actually missing until they started coming in over the 
last four days... several hundred and still coming it looks like.

Kind of fun to relive a little history I guess though I did initially 
freak when the list traffic spiked. :)  One of the oddest mailing list 
quirks I've seen in a while.

No action required, just commiserating.
-Paul
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Peter Gebauer]

> In my perception forums will be more scalable if the user community 
> grows, because you can not expect every member to follow all discussions 
> that are currently happening (or happened if you were on vacation for two 
> weeks).

Or you get a decent MUA. Getting an additional login AND having to run a 
browser to sift through new threads is inconvenient. ML's are simply more 
convenient if you have a wonderfully configured MUA compared to the mucky 
web interfaces.

Speaking of web interfaces, a forum is pretty much a mailing list 
archive in design, isn't there some web interface for mailing lists that 
allows you to browse threads as in a forum? Perhaps you could help out 
installing such software so that the community can choose from two 
interfaces: SMTP and HTML.

Again, I'll stick with my MUA (mutt) since it has better controls and UI 
than any forum web interface I've ever seen. I also pipe my messages 
through procmail which has a vast collection of filtering I require.
It is also conveniently started from my shell so I don't have to click 
around or use the mouse to partake in OSG discussions. (I rarely even have 
the mouse connected)
So you see, a web interface would ruin my perfect setup = not good. :)

/Peter

>  
> my two cents,
>  
> Roland Smeenk
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ricko 3D
>   Sent: maandag 27 augustus 2007 6:07
>   To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>   Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
>   
>   
> 
>   > Nick Prudent wrote:
> 
>   > There *is* an OSG discussion forum:
>   > http://www.3drealtimesimulation.com/3dsceneBB/index.php
>   > It's just not very official (and not used much, from what I can 
> see...). 
> 
>   Great!  I'll bet it would be used much more if it were listed 
> prominently on the wiki like just below the mailing list link or on the 
> getting started page for example. I searched the wiki and found a link to an 
> official FAQ on that site but no links from the wiki to the forum at all.
> 
>
> 
>   > Jean-Sébastien wrote:
> 
>   > you'll see the arguments for and against. A compromise 
>   > may be reached, but the mailing list is here to stay.
>   > Most OSS projects have at least two mailing lists, some much more.  
> 
>   > It's a very effective means of discussing development subjects.
> 
>
> 
>   Thanks for the quick response. Seems funny to say anything is here to 
> stay related to any constantly evolving technology project, or anything 
> related to the Internet. I was just offering my observations coming at this 
> project fresh. My opinion was simply that the mailing list method seems 
> outdated. I wasn't suggesting it is not effective, just comparing it to the 
> features/benefits of newer community technologies I've used on other projects.
> 
>
> 
> 
> This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at 
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Zachary Hilbun]

I looked at the documentation on the web page and
eventually figured out how to use the Wiki editor. 
When someone asks a question about something that is
inadequately documented, it would be a good idea to
encourage them to improve the documentation.  After
they have been given an answer, they can be given a
link to the Wiki sign in instructions and links to the
right document(s) to improve.  After they have
mastered the subject their question was about they can
edit the right spot in the documentation.

The examples don't appear to be editable so that is a
problem.  Some of them could use some additional
commenting.  The Quick Start Guide is not available on
a web page to be editable.  Only part of the full
Reference Guide is on a web page.  The reference guide
is apparently generated from the source files so I'm
not sure how you would integrate user added
documentation to it.


--- Robert Osfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 8/27/07, Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland)
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > There's a huge list of examples all needing
> maintenance already. Why not
> > let the tutorials emerge from the community (like
> the NPS tutorial and
> > others) and let them be maintained by the
> community.
> 
> It would be great to see a tutorial/example set
> thrive without needing
> my input.  Perhaps one could even consider moving
> core osg examples
> into such a repository.
> 
> I don't think keeping things up to date would be
> very difficult, once
> they are ported over to 2.0 and use CMake it should
> be pretty straight
> forward for various members of the community to keep
> things in sync.
> 
> > All it takes is a
> > platform (like the Wiki) that is guaranteed to be
> available in the
> > future.
> 
> We have the existing website and the forge area that
> can host
> tutorials.  I'd suggest keeping the tutorials as
> part of the main
> website though, as this will help people search of
> things all in one
> centralised place.  Roland's work porting across to
> the new wiki is a
> good first step.
> 
> I'd suggest it'd be useful for someone or a group of
> individuals step
> forward as coordinators/contributors.
> 
> Robert.
> 
> 
> 
> W.r.t svn support, one could either place it as part
> of the osg
> repository or in its own.
> 
> Robert.
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> 


===
Zachary Hilbun
Software Contractor
Dallas, Tx


   

Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the 
tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Peter Gebauer]

Hello.

> on a technical project since the late 90's (I think the last one I used as a

That's because people are stupid? :)

Why should I have to commit an extra login on a web page and use a message 
reader that is slower, less configurable and less integrated with my 
desktop?
My mail user agent sorts threads and categorizes posts using advanced 
procmail filters and the coloring is exactly like I want it. No web based 
forum can provide that much usability and features.

Just my thoughts on forums.

/Peter
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jean-Sébastien Guay]

Hello Philip,

> My experience is that tutorials as far as possible should be part of the
> main source code, because they become the test harnesses of the main code

There are already over 80 examples in the OSG source code that serve  
this function. I don't think we should add the tutorials to those. The  
function should be different. Examples exercise OSG and demonstrate  
what can be done with it, and tutorials are there to guide new users  
to how to do specific things.

They *could* be added to the main source distribution, but I don't  
think it's necessary. And keeping them separate would probably lessen  
Robert's workload, and allow people to for example download a  
binary-only OSG distribution while getting the source code for only  
the tutorials.

J-S
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jean-Sébastien Guay]

Hello Robert,

> I suspect this is an issue with false positives where spam filters and
> blacklisting is used as much  as anything else.

I don't think so, I think it's more likely to be randomly dropped  
mails by the mailing list software because some of the mails I didn't  
get were from you! :-)

I would get responses to a message you sent, but not the actual  
message that was responded to. Seems you should check with your  
hosting service to see if they have anything they can check out in  
logs or whatnot and see if there are reliability issues...

J-S
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Speed]

Robert Osfield wrote:
> On 8/27/07, Jean-Sébastien Guay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> P.S.
>>> It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is
>>> not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
>>> has it  occured to anyone else?
>> Yes, me. No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about
>> 3 times in the last week...
> 
> Mailman on the new dreamhost server doesn't seem to be as reliable as
> it should be. I am no mail, mailman or web admin expert so I can't say
> why exact these problems exist.  Is it a dreamhost problem on
> delivery?  Is is peoples on mail servers rejecting mail?
> 
> Just a point of reference, the last time we moved mailing list servers
> there was quite a bit of fallout w.r.t the mail server being
> blacklisted so people wouldn't receive mail from it.  The blacklisting
> can be a local issue or one centrally managed.
> 
> I suspect this is an issue with false positives where spam filters and
> blacklisting is used as much  as anything else.
> 
> Robert.

For what it's worth, I too have missed several e-mails from the list... 
some from you specifically.  I know about them because I see the responses.

I only mention it because a) I have basically no spam filtering at all, 
and b) I receive many other messages (from you specifically) just fine.

Just adding evidence (or removing possible red herrings) for anyone 
trying to debug this issue.

-Paul
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/27/07, Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There's a huge list of examples all needing maintenance already. Why not
> let the tutorials emerge from the community (like the NPS tutorial and
> others) and let them be maintained by the community.

It would be great to see a tutorial/example set thrive without needing
my input.  Perhaps one could even consider moving core osg examples
into such a repository.

I don't think keeping things up to date would be very difficult, once
they are ported over to 2.0 and use CMake it should be pretty straight
forward for various members of the community to keep things in sync.

> All it takes is a
> platform (like the Wiki) that is guaranteed to be available in the
> future.

We have the existing website and the forge area that can host
tutorials.  I'd suggest keeping the tutorials as part of the main
website though, as this will help people search of things all in one
centralised place.  Roland's work porting across to the new wiki is a
good first step.

I'd suggest it'd be useful for someone or a group of individuals step
forward as coordinators/contributors.

Robert.



W.r.t svn support, one could either place it as part of the osg
repository or in its own.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Eric Sokolowsky]

Ricko 3D wrote:
> 
> Just an idea (sorry if it was discussed previously - I'm new here)... how
> about an actual discussion forum (like vBulletin) to compliment the wiki. No
> offense intended but I haven't seen a mailing list used for all discussions
> on a technical project since the late 90's (I think the last one I used as a
> developer that was served by Mailman was the introduction of the PNG
> format). As an outsider just learning OSG I have to admit a text only
> mailing list made OSG harder to approach then other similar technologies
> available today. Forums for other similar technology projects I've
> participated in seem to offer less friction (and more of a community feel -
> improving contributions) on technical discussions. Just my two cents.

The problems with posting messages forums is that you lose the attention 
of several OSG developers and contributors, such as Robert Osfield and 
myself. Mailing lists are much more efficient for me because the 
messages come to me, and I don't have to go anywhere, log in, and trawl 
for new messages scattered around in multiple discussion threads.

As others have stated, this has all been discussed before, so that's all 
  that needs to be said.

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Gordon Tomlinson]

Sadly I think its not just a mail man issue with  dreamhost its a general
problem

They seem to have a lot of issues over the last 9 months or so and I find
that my sites, web, sql etc
are down a lot, so it might be part of this over degradation of server that
seems to have hit
dreamhost

I have always liked dreamhost the price and service has been right, but as
of late I'm considering
moving on

Best Regards

Gordon

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Email  : gordon.tomlinson @ overwatch.com
YIM/AIM: Gordon3dBrit
MSN IM : Gordon3dBrit @ 3dSceneGraph.com

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can arouse one's instinct for survival"
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert
Osfield
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 4:50 AM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials


On 8/27/07, Jean-Sébastien Guay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > P.S.
> > It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is
> > not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
> > has it  occured to anyone else?
>
> Yes, me. No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about
> 3 times in the last week...

Mailman on the new dreamhost server doesn't seem to be as reliable as
it should be. I am no mail, mailman or web admin expert so I can't say
why exact these problems exist.  Is it a dreamhost problem on
delivery?  Is is peoples on mail servers rejecting mail?

Just a point of reference, the last time we moved mailing list servers
there was quite a bit of fallout w.r.t the mail server being
blacklisted so people wouldn't receive mail from it.  The blacklisting
can be a local issue or one centrally managed.

I suspect this is an issue with false positives where spam filters and
blacklisting is used as much  as anything else.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland)]

 
On the original subject - tutorials.

There's a huge list of examples all needing maintenance already. Why not
let the tutorials emerge from the community (like the NPS tutorial and
others) and let them be maintained by the community. All it takes is a
platform (like the Wiki) that is guaranteed to be available in the
future. It seems to me one tends to keep things centralized and under
control of few and therefore increasing the weight that those few
shoulders need to carry. That's not what I see as a community effort.
Distribute the weight so we can all contribute...

Roland

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Philip Taylor
> Sent: maandag 27 augustus 2007 11:15
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> On the hijacked tutorial subject - forum and/or email list
> 
> A forum is an online activity whilst an email list is an 
> offline activity, which means that I can get on with other 
> things rather constantly watching a forum window for a 
> critical reply - such as actually figuring out a solution for 
> myself and learning something in the process.
> 
> On the original subject - tutorials.
> 
> My experience is that tutorials as far as possible should be 
> part of the main source code, because they become the test 
> harnesses of the main code - if they don't work then 
> something is wrong and needs to be fixed. Also it keeps the 
> tutorials refreshed and working with the evolving interfaces. 
> The real trick is then to not to go wild on the production of 
> new tutorials if existing tutorials can be extended to 
> demonstrate new features, otherwise we could end up with even 
> more of a maintenance headache.
> 
> PhilT
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf 
> Of Robert Osfield
> Sent: 27 August 2007 09:59
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> The forum vs mailing list issue has been done to death many times.
> Some people swear by forums, some detest them, some people 
> swear by mailing lists, some others detest, others don't care.
> 
> Having mailing lists *and* forums just splits the community 
> and critically those delving out support.  There is 
> absolutely no way on earth I can afford my time to be 
> stretched out any further, and my guess others are in a 
> similar boat. For this reason you won't be finding me or many 
> others on the forums or IRC channels, and without the driving 
> forces being the OSG being one these channels of support they 
> won't of little use.
> 
> Since splitting damages the communities ability to provide 
> support and to generally function, then one really has to 
> keep community in one place, this should either be a mailing 
> list OR a forum OR and this would be my ideal a system where 
> users can choose to doing either use
> mailing list or a forum.   Provision of such as system is not a
> trivial matter, and something than members of the community 
> will have to step up to help provide as I don't have the 
> expertise or the resources to provide it myself.
> 
> Robert.
> 
> On 8/27/07, Ricko 3D <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Thanks for the quick response. Seems funny to say anything 
> is here to 
> > stay related to any constantly evolving technology project, or 
> > anything related to the Internet. I was just offering my 
> observations 
> > coming at this
> project
> > fresh. My opinion was simply that the mailing list method 
> seems outdated.
> I
> > wasn't suggesting it is not effective, just comparing it to the 
> > features/benefits of newer community technologies I've used 
> on other 
> > projects.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Philip Taylor]

On the hijacked tutorial subject - forum and/or email list

A forum is an online activity whilst an email list is an offline activity,
which means that I can get on with other things rather constantly watching a
forum window for a critical reply - such as actually figuring out a solution
for myself and learning something in the process.

On the original subject - tutorials.

My experience is that tutorials as far as possible should be part of the
main source code, because they become the test harnesses of the main code -
if they don't work then something is wrong and needs to be fixed. Also it
keeps the tutorials refreshed and working with the evolving interfaces. The
real trick is then to not to go wild on the production of new tutorials if
existing tutorials can be extended to demonstrate new features, otherwise we
could end up with even more of a maintenance headache.

PhilT



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert
Osfield
Sent: 27 August 2007 09:59
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials


Hi Rick,

The forum vs mailing list issue has been done to death many times.
Some people swear by forums, some detest them, some people swear by
mailing lists, some others detest, others don't care.

Having mailing lists *and* forums just splits the community and
critically those delving out support.  There is absolutely no way on
earth I can afford my time to be stretched out any further, and my
guess others are in a similar boat. For this reason you won't be
finding me or many others on the forums or IRC channels, and without
the driving forces being the OSG being one these channels of support
they won't of little use.

Since splitting damages the communities ability to provide support and
to generally function, then one really has to keep community in one
place, this should either be a mailing list OR a forum OR and this
would be my ideal a system where users can choose to doing either use
mailing list or a forum.   Provision of such as system is not a
trivial matter, and something than members of the community will have
to step up to help provide as I don't have the expertise or the
resources to provide it myself.

Robert.

On 8/27/07, Ricko 3D <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the quick response. Seems funny to say anything is here to stay
> related to any constantly evolving technology project, or anything related
> to the Internet. I was just offering my observations coming at this
project
> fresh. My opinion was simply that the mailing list method seems outdated.
I
> wasn't suggesting it is not effective, just comparing it to the
> features/benefits of newer community technologies I've used on other
> projects.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Rick,

The forum vs mailing list issue has been done to death many times.
Some people swear by forums, some detest them, some people swear by
mailing lists, some others detest, others don't care.

Having mailing lists *and* forums just splits the community and
critically those delving out support.  There is absolutely no way on
earth I can afford my time to be stretched out any further, and my
guess others are in a similar boat. For this reason you won't be
finding me or many others on the forums or IRC channels, and without
the driving forces being the OSG being one these channels of support
they won't of little use.

Since splitting damages the communities ability to provide support and
to generally function, then one really has to keep community in one
place, this should either be a mailing list OR a forum OR and this
would be my ideal a system where users can choose to doing either use
mailing list or a forum.   Provision of such as system is not a
trivial matter, and something than members of the community will have
to step up to help provide as I don't have the expertise or the
resources to provide it myself.

Robert.

On 8/27/07, Ricko 3D <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the quick response. Seems funny to say anything is here to stay
> related to any constantly evolving technology project, or anything related
> to the Internet. I was just offering my observations coming at this project
> fresh. My opinion was simply that the mailing list method seems outdated. I
> wasn't suggesting it is not effective, just comparing it to the
> features/benefits of newer community technologies I've used on other
> projects.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland)]

I believe both mailing lists and forums have their merits. Mailing list are 
great if you want to feel like an active member of the community and you want 
to be right on top of every discussion. However mailing lists push information 
to you and the only way to control information flow is by subscribing to lists 
that you believe you have interest in and unsubscribing from those that you 
have not.
 
In my opinion forums are great for building a large and diverse community. 
First of all the filtering of information is based on pull. Typically a number 
different forums is used, so that each of them may have a more specific user 
community, for instance a beginner forum, developer forums,  (tech) artist 
forum etc. Further filtering exists in the fact that you only open topics if 
they sound interesting. There exist statistics on the amount of activity of 
members so valueing responses is easier. By gathering a layer of valuable and 
respected people around the core developers (like in the Ogre forums) a lot of 
FAQs will be caught without having the core team members to respond to all 
questions.
 
In my perception forums will be more scalable if the user community grows, 
because you can not expect every member to follow all discussions that are 
currently happening (or happened if you were on vacation for two weeks).
 
my two cents,
 
Roland Smeenk
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ricko 3D
Sent: maandag 27 augustus 2007 6:07
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials



> Nick Prudent wrote:

> There *is* an OSG discussion forum:
> http://www.3drealtimesimulation.com/3dsceneBB/index.php
> It's just not very official (and not used much, from what I can 
see...). 

Great!  I'll bet it would be used much more if it were listed 
prominently on the wiki like just below the mailing list link or on the getting 
started page for example. I searched the wiki and found a link to an official 
FAQ on that site but no links from the wiki to the forum at all.

 

> Jean-Sébastien wrote:

> you'll see the arguments for and against. A compromise 
> may be reached, but the mailing list is here to stay.
> Most OSS projects have at least two mailing lists, some much more.  

> It's a very effective means of discussing development subjects.

 

Thanks for the quick response. Seems funny to say anything is here to 
stay related to any constantly evolving technology project, or anything related 
to the Internet. I was just offering my observations coming at this project 
fresh. My opinion was simply that the mailing list method seems outdated. I 
wasn't suggesting it is not effective, just comparing it to the 
features/benefits of newer community technologies I've used on other projects.

 


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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/27/07, Jean-Sébastien Guay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > P.S.
> > It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is
> > not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
> > has it  occured to anyone else?
>
> Yes, me. No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about
> 3 times in the last week...

Mailman on the new dreamhost server doesn't seem to be as reliable as
it should be. I am no mail, mailman or web admin expert so I can't say
why exact these problems exist.  Is it a dreamhost problem on
delivery?  Is is peoples on mail servers rejecting mail?

Just a point of reference, the last time we moved mailing list servers
there was quite a bit of fallout w.r.t the mail server being
blacklisted so people wouldn't receive mail from it.  The blacklisting
can be a local issue or one centrally managed.

I suspect this is an issue with false positives where spam filters and
blacklisting is used as much  as anything else.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Ricko 3D]

> Nick Prudent wrote:

> There *is* an OSG discussion forum:
> http://www.3drealtimesimulation.com/3dsceneBB/index.php
> It's just not very official (and not used much, from what I can see...). 

Great!  I’ll bet it would be used much more if it were listed prominently on
the wiki like just below the mailing list link or on the getting started
page for example. I searched the wiki and found a link to an official FAQ on
that site but no links from the wiki to the forum at all.

 

> Jean-Sébastien wrote:

> you'll see the arguments for and against. A compromise 
> may be reached, but the mailing list is here to stay.
> Most OSS projects have at least two mailing lists, some much more.  

> It's a very effective means of discussing development subjects.

 

Thanks for the quick response. Seems funny to say anything is here to stay
related to any constantly evolving technology project, or anything related
to the Internet. I was just offering my observations coming at this project
fresh. My opinion was simply that the mailing list method seems outdated. I
wasn’t suggesting it is not effective, just comparing it to the
features/benefits of newer community technologies I’ve used on other
projects.

 

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Nick Prudent]

There *is* an OSG discussion 
forum:http://www.3drealtimesimulation.com/3dsceneBB/index.phpIt's just not very 
official (and not used much, from what I can see...). Email works great for me. 
This together with the Wiki makes for a great community. Friction? What 
friction? This mailing list is more civil than others I have frequented, that's 
for sure ;)- Nick -> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:40:00 -0400> 
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials> > >> It seems to me to not have received 
the original Robert message, It is> >> not the first ime I got a reply to a 
message I' ve never received.> >> has it  occured to anyone else?> > > Yes, me. 
No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about  > > 3 times in 
the last week...> > Just an idea (sorry if it was discussed previously - I'm 
new here)... how> about an actual discussion forum (like vBulletin) to 
compliment the wiki. No> offense intended but I haven't seen a mailing list 
used for all discussions> on a technical project since the late 90's (I think 
the last one I used as a> developer that was served by Mailman was the 
introduction of the PNG> format). As an outsider just learning OSG I have to 
admit a text only> mailing list made OSG harder to approach then other similar 
technologies> available today. Forums for other similar technology projects 
I've> participated in seem to offer less friction (and more of a community feel 
-> improving contributions) on technical discussions. Just my two cents.> > > > 
___> osg-users mailing list> 
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jean-Sébastien Guay]

Hello,

> Just an idea (sorry if it was discussed previously - I'm new here)... how
> about an actual discussion forum (like vBulletin) to compliment the wiki.

Indeed, it has been discussed previously. Search the archives. Last I  
heard of it, some people suggested ways of bridging a forum and the  
mailing list but nothing practical came of it...

As I said, look at the archives on the subject, you'll see the  
arguments for and against. A compromise may be reached, but the  
mailing list is here to stay.

> No offense intended but I haven't seen a mailing list used for all  
> discussions
> on a technical project since the late 90's

Most OSS projects have at least two mailing lists, some much more.  
It's a very effective means of discussing development subjects.

J-S
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Ricko 3D]

>> It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is
>> not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
>> has it  occured to anyone else?

> Yes, me. No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about  
> 3 times in the last week...

Just an idea (sorry if it was discussed previously - I'm new here)... how
about an actual discussion forum (like vBulletin) to compliment the wiki. No
offense intended but I haven't seen a mailing list used for all discussions
on a technical project since the late 90's (I think the last one I used as a
developer that was served by Mailman was the introduction of the PNG
format). As an outsider just learning OSG I have to admit a text only
mailing list made OSG harder to approach then other similar technologies
available today. Forums for other similar technology projects I've
participated in seem to offer less friction (and more of a community feel -
improving contributions) on technical discussions. Just my two cents.



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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jean-Sébastien Guay]

> I vote for 2)
> I think we should provide examples on how to build an external
> application that is OSG-based, the tutorials are probably good candidates.

I agree. The tutorials should be kept separate.

> P.S.
> It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is
> not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
> has it  occured to anyone else?

Yes, me. No idea why, nor how to fix it, but I've seen it happen about  
3 times in the last week...

J-S
-- 
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Luigi Calori]

I vote for 2)
I think we should provide examples on how to build an external 
application that is OSG-based, the tutorials are probably good candidates.
They could also be used with different OSG versions.
I can help to set up the CMake projects.

P.S.
It seems to me to not have received the original Robert message, It is 
not the first ime I got a reply to a message I' ve never received.
has it  occured to anyone else?

Thanks
 Luigi


David Callu wrote:

> better to keep examples into the OpenSceneGraph/examples to keep sync 
> with OSG core isn't it ??
>
>
> 2007/8/25, Robert Osfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >:
>
> Where to host the example source...
>
> 1) I see three options - zip files attached to the wiki
>
> 2) A svn repository for tutorial examples
>
> 3) Putting tutorial examples into the OpenSceneGraph/examples as part
> of the core OSG.
>
> Keeping the tutorials separate from the core OSG will require a
> maintainer for it, any volunteers?  Keeping it separate does have an
> advantage of show how one builds applications outwith the standard OSG
> distribution.
>
> Putting tutorials into the core OSG has the advantage is that the
> code
> will be as easily any of the core OSG examples.
>
> Thoughts?
> Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[David Callu]

better to keep examples into the OpenSceneGraph/examples to keep sync with
OSG core isn't it ??


2007/8/25, Robert Osfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Where to host the example source...
>
> 1) I see three options - zip files attached to the wiki
>
> 2) A svn repository for tutorial examples
>
> 3) Putting tutorial examples into the OpenSceneGraph/examples as part
> of the core OSG.
>
> Keeping the tutorials separate from the core OSG will require a
> maintainer for it, any volunteers?  Keeping it separate does have an
> advantage of show how one builds applications outwith the standard OSG
> distribution.
>
> Putting tutorials into the core OSG has the advantage is that the code
> will be as easily any of the core OSG examples.
>
> Thoughts?
> Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Where to host the example source...

1) I see three options - zip files attached to the wiki

2) A svn repository for tutorial examples

3) Putting tutorial examples into the OpenSceneGraph/examples as part
of the core OSG.

Keeping the tutorials separate from the core OSG will require a
maintainer for it, any volunteers?  Keeping it separate does have an
advantage of show how one builds applications outwith the standard OSG
distribution.

Putting tutorials into the core OSG has the advantage is that the code
will be as easily any of the core OSG examples.

Thoughts?
Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Sullivan, Joseph (CDR)]

That's awesome!  Many thanks,
-Joe



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland)
Sent: Fri 8/24/2007 12:59 PM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials




I just copied all NPS tutorials into the Wiki.
There's a number of things that still need editing:
-Conversion to OSG2.0
-Addition of source zip files
-Addition of screenshots
-Addition of links to related stuff (Api reference, examples and User
guides)

Robert, I read in the Wiki that it is possible to automatically add
syntax coloring if GNU Enscript or SilverCity (preferred) are installed.
I would like to see this installed?
Furthermore CamelCasing in the Trac Wiki has bitten me more than it
helped me, because I had to disable all Wiki linking on StateSets,
MatrixTransforms etc. Could this be turned off?

Kind regards,

Roland Smeenk



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Sullivan, Joseph (CDR)
> Sent: donderdag 23 augustus 2007 0:39
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
>
> Hey All,
> Congrats and big thanks to those that have been adding documentation!
> I've been largely away from OSG for a while, but the work
> looks mighty impressive.
> I think Robert's question about different users is the key. 
> The examples are absolutely fantastic and work great for
> some, not so great for others.  Tutorials seem to be a
> helpful bridge.  (The original goal of the NPS tutorial set
> was to get students w/out engineering background comfortable
> enough to dive into the examples.) Soo...
> What does it take to move the tutorials currently on the NPS
> web site over to the osg wiki site?
> Is there anybody that can spare some resources to help the effort?
> Thanks,
> Joe S.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:osg-users-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Osfield
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:55 AM
> > To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> >
> > On 8/22/07, Jeremy L. Moles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:16 +0100, Robert Osfield wrote:
> > > > Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
> > > >
> > > >   svn rm  examples
> > > >
> > > > ?
> > >
> > > No, they very much are. :) It's just that those of us that DO use
> the
> > > examples don't post here saying so...
> >
> > Its O.K. I'm not serious about to remove them, just frustrating my
> > frustration at big chunks of work that is dedicated to helping new
> > users being ignored.
> >
> > > As far as example usefulness is concerned, "no news is good news."
> > > Honestly, in contrast to the entire discussion at hand, I _rarely_
> use
> > > documentation. I always just look at the code. Documentation in a
> formal
> > > sense makes me want to take a nap...
> >
> > In other projects I do occasionally look for documentation,
> but rarely
> > does it help me more than a succinct code example.  If you are
> > experienced programmer than its the code that tells you everything.
> >
> > It would be interesting to do a profile of different users
> to see what
> > types of assistance to get their programs written they find most
> > effective.  When I say assistance I mean documentation,
> mailing list
> > archives, examples, code comments, code itself, class
> naming, method
> > naming.
> >
> > I do wonder if too many developers these days are expecting
> to put in
> > too little real effort for the amount of results they are wanting.
> > Programming is hard.  Real-time graphics is a BIG topic.  To master
> > them you have lavish lots of time.
> >
> > When I first started programming as a kid there was just
> practically
> > nothing available relative to today, I didn't know any better, I
> > enjoyed in a perverse way learning by myself how to code Z80
> > assembler.  Yes it took weeks just to get a few coloured sprites
> > animating across the screen, but I didn't go ranting at anyone for
> > lack of guidance and docs, I just enjoyed figuring it out
> and getting
> > the final result.  Fast forward to today and the with 10
> lines of code
> > in the OSG you can create and load a terabyte sized 3D world and
> > interact with it at a solid 60Hz.  But yet some people seem
> to expect
> > more much more.
> >
> > Robert.
> > 

Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Peter Gebauer]

Hello!

> The main problem with OSG's documentation isn't that there's not enough 
> of it, but that it's poorly presented on the website. You have to click 

The old site was even worse, so the OSG site is moving in the right 
direction. At the moment everything is a jumble because (speculating) a lot 
of time is spent to get the upcoming release in order. The community clearly 
prioritize new features and bug fixes over website issues, check the mailing 
list for reference.

However, through the wonderful world of Wiki, all OSG users may contribute!
If you have some major changes, run them by the other users on the ML (for 
courtesy), if nobody objects too loudly, implement the changes on the site.

/Peter
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/25/07, Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> The "recent changes" link will tell you all.
> Anyway http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Support/Tutorials
> is the entry point.

OK. Great, I was flummoxed by the ? after wiki links - I've now fixed
this - just required removal of the / before Support/Tutorials.

I have also update a number of the examples to use osgViewer, mainly
involved removing lines of code that aren't needed any more and
renaming osgProducer to osgViewer.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland)]

Robert,

The "recent changes" link will tell you all.
Anyway http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Support/Tutorials
is the entry point.

--
Roland

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Robert Osfield
> Sent: zaterdag 25 augustus 2007 8:57
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> Hi Roland,
> 
> On 8/24/07, Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I just copied all NPS tutorials into the Wiki.
> 
> Many thanks.  Where abouts on the wiki have you copied it?
> 
> > There's a number of things that still need editing:
> > -Conversion to OSG2.0
> > -Addition of source zip files
> > -Addition of screenshots
> > -Addition of links to related stuff (Api reference, 
> examples and User
> > guides)
> >
> > Robert, I read in the Wiki that it is possible to automatically add 
> > syntax coloring if GNU Enscript or SilverCity (preferred) 
> are installed.
> > I would like to see this installed?
> > Furthermore CamelCasing in the Trac Wiki has bitten me more than it 
> > helped me, because I had to disable all Wiki linking on StateSets, 
> > MatrixTransforms etc. Could this be turned off?
> 
> I have to defer to others who know Tracs, and I'm just a 
> newbee users like yourself.
> 
> Perhaps Jose is he's back can comment on what you could 
> possibly be changed on the server.
> 
> Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Roland,

On 8/24/07, Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just copied all NPS tutorials into the Wiki.

Many thanks.  Where abouts on the wiki have you copied it?

> There's a number of things that still need editing:
> -Conversion to OSG2.0
> -Addition of source zip files
> -Addition of screenshots
> -Addition of links to related stuff (Api reference, examples and User
> guides)
>
> Robert, I read in the Wiki that it is possible to automatically add
> syntax coloring if GNU Enscript or SilverCity (preferred) are installed.
> I would like to see this installed?
> Furthermore CamelCasing in the Trac Wiki has bitten me more than it
> helped me, because I had to disable all Wiki linking on StateSets,
> MatrixTransforms etc. Could this be turned off?

I have to defer to others who know Tracs, and I'm just a newbee users
like yourself.

Perhaps Jose is he's back can comment on what you could possibly be
changed on the server.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Smeenk, R.J.M. (Roland)]

I just copied all NPS tutorials into the Wiki.
There's a number of things that still need editing:
-Conversion to OSG2.0
-Addition of source zip files
-Addition of screenshots
-Addition of links to related stuff (Api reference, examples and User
guides)

Robert, I read in the Wiki that it is possible to automatically add
syntax coloring if GNU Enscript or SilverCity (preferred) are installed.
I would like to see this installed?
Furthermore CamelCasing in the Trac Wiki has bitten me more than it
helped me, because I had to disable all Wiki linking on StateSets,
MatrixTransforms etc. Could this be turned off?

Kind regards,

Roland Smeenk



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Sullivan, Joseph (CDR)
> Sent: donderdag 23 augustus 2007 0:39
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> Hey All,
> Congrats and big thanks to those that have been adding documentation!
> I've been largely away from OSG for a while, but the work 
> looks mighty impressive.
> I think Robert's question about different users is the key.  
> The examples are absolutely fantastic and work great for 
> some, not so great for others.  Tutorials seem to be a 
> helpful bridge.  (The original goal of the NPS tutorial set 
> was to get students w/out engineering background comfortable 
> enough to dive into the examples.) Soo...
> What does it take to move the tutorials currently on the NPS 
> web site over to the osg wiki site?
> Is there anybody that can spare some resources to help the effort?
> Thanks,
> Joe S.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:osg-users- 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Osfield
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:55 AM
> > To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> > 
> > On 8/22/07, Jeremy L. Moles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:16 +0100, Robert Osfield wrote:
> > > > Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
> > > >
> > > >   svn rm  examples
> > > >
> > > > ?
> > >
> > > No, they very much are. :) It's just that those of us that DO use
> the
> > > examples don't post here saying so...
> > 
> > Its O.K. I'm not serious about to remove them, just frustrating my 
> > frustration at big chunks of work that is dedicated to helping new 
> > users being ignored.
> > 
> > > As far as example usefulness is concerned, "no news is good news."
> > > Honestly, in contrast to the entire discussion at hand, I _rarely_
> use
> > > documentation. I always just look at the code. Documentation in a
> formal
> > > sense makes me want to take a nap...
> > 
> > In other projects I do occasionally look for documentation, 
> but rarely 
> > does it help me more than a succinct code example.  If you are 
> > experienced programmer than its the code that tells you everything.
> > 
> > It would be interesting to do a profile of different users 
> to see what 
> > types of assistance to get their programs written they find most 
> > effective.  When I say assistance I mean documentation, 
> mailing list 
> > archives, examples, code comments, code itself, class 
> naming, method 
> > naming.
> > 
> > I do wonder if too many developers these days are expecting 
> to put in 
> > too little real effort for the amount of results they are wanting.
> > Programming is hard.  Real-time graphics is a BIG topic.  To master 
> > them you have lavish lots of time.
> > 
> > When I first started programming as a kid there was just 
> practically 
> > nothing available relative to today, I didn't know any better, I 
> > enjoyed in a perverse way learning by myself how to code Z80 
> > assembler.  Yes it took weeks just to get a few coloured sprites 
> > animating across the screen, but I didn't go ranting at anyone for 
> > lack of guidance and docs, I just enjoyed figuring it out 
> and getting 
> > the final result.  Fast forward to today and the with 10 
> lines of code 
> > in the OSG you can create and load a terabyte sized 3D world and 
> > interact with it at a solid 60Hz.  But yet some people seem 
> to expect 
> > more much more.
> > 
> > Robert.
> > ___
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> >
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-opensce
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> g
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

Just some stray thoughts about writing open source code, books, and
tutorials...

Writing code for free has zero financial benefit, of course, and the
financial benefit of writing books has (so far) been negligible as well. But
producing a useful, viable software project, and documentation for it, has
tremendous self-promotion benefits for the authors, who get lots of clients
and business. For example, Bob and I (and Robert too, last time I checked)
are currently swamped/overwhelmed with work. Then the question looms its
ugly head: Write more free code and documentation? Or write code for clients
to bring in revenue?

I recall Robert expressing the desire to have documentation development pay
for itself; that's not really practical, I don't think it ever will in terms
of $$$ per hour spent writing. So, the temptation is to quit writing and
focus on more direct-revenue-generating tasks. So when people suggest that
Robert or Bob and I develop some new whiz-bang feature or documentation, you
might understand why our response is "you're part of the community, do it
yourself. We're kind of busy with paying projects at the moment."

(Tangent: Bob and I are trying to keep a balance and find creative ways to
leverage other work for documentation development. For example, we hope the
OSG Programming Guide will fall out of our training course curriculum. And
much of our work will lead us to improving the comments in the OSG source,
which will produce better Reference Manuals.)

I think this applies not just to core OSG sw dev and doc dev, but also to
other forms of docs: tutorials and examples. Take Joe Sullivan, for example.
Based on the reputation he's earned from OSG tutorial development, I imagine
he could quit his day job and start picking up clients for OSG dev work in
fairly short order. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of such work as
far as I can tell.

I say this to hopefully inspire people to step up and contribute, earn a
name for themselves, and then use that to the advantage of their career
(while simultaneously improving OSG or its documentation). If
self-employment is a goal, this is one way to get there.

Paul Martz
Skew Matrix Software LLC
http://www.skew-matrix.com
303 859 9466

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/23/07, Zachary Hilbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To me it makes sense to have better documentation,
> because would you rather have one guy spend an extra
> hour writing documentation or have 100 guys spend and
> extra hour each trying to figure out how something
> works?

If its so easy why not hire someone to spend a hour?  Or thousand?

If those you are expecting to write documentation are already working
12 hours days, many many of them without pay, should one expect an
extra hour every day or just any extra hour less paid work per day...

If the community want documentation then they need either volunteer
themselves OR volunteer to pay some else to do it.

So please for all those who are moaning about lack of documentation,
its time to stop gassing and write some tutorials or talk to you boss
to put your on a training course, or to commission Paul Martz and Bob
Kuehne or others to write more documentation.

Moaning just tells us how little you appreciate all this free stuff
you've already got and how unreasonable some people are.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/23/07, Robert Penn Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Again, I'm not bashing anyone. But in my opinion most folks are not
> being unreasonable in the complaint that the documentation is lacking.
> And it's mighty hard to generate that documentation when you're still
> trying to figure it out yourself.
>
> Well, that pretty much wraps up my argument for why people complaining
> about documentation are not automatically lazy, stupid, or bad programmers.

What is reasonable to expect for something you haven't payed for?

If you have bought something then its reasonable to expect it to
function as advertised.  If for instance you've paid for the Quick
Start Guide and there are book has came through the post as soggy mess
you can complain and get your money back from the publisher.

If you have been given a free gift, then your right to complain is
rather diminished.Rather it equates to about how much you paid for
it, and how much you were promised for this payment.

I wouldn't disagree with desire to have more and better documentation,
we can all "desire" this.  It's another thing all together to make
demands upon others that have already given so much.

With a community driven project that gives so much for free, if you
wish to additional stuff on top they you have to be prepared to pay
with your own time, skills and good will.

One thing you can't expect form the community is for it to owe you
anything, you aren't owned training for free, support for free, let
alone any code.  If you don't know anything about C++, scene graphs,
OpenGL, real-time graphics then its unreasonable to expect others to
fill in the gaps in your skills base.

If you want to learn to be a doctor, well you go to medical college,
you *pay* for the tuition.  You want to learn about how to mend a car,
you go buy a instruction manual for a local shop and enroll in a car
mechanics course.

What we have here is it seems, is that we've not only given a car away
free, and the right to freely duplicate it, and some basic
documentation, again for free, and a community that is willing to help
out where and when time permits.  All this is pretty awesome, yet
because of all this stuff is given away for free and with goodwill
that we somehow owe more.  We have to teach you how to do your job
too.

If you expectation are unresonable then you will be disappointed.
Considering you pay nothing for the product or support for it what you
truely should expect is nothing from it or its community, *nothing* is
the only reasonably thing to expect.

If you expect any more than nothing you have nothing more to expect or
demand that disappointment - this isn't the fault of the project or
its community, the fault lies with your own unreasonable expectations.

Now if you are contributor, then there are grounds for some
expectation, expectation that you contribution will be given due
consideration and respect for the effort that you expended on it.

Companies that pay for bespoke development, training or support, they
too have grounds for expectation.

Thankfully the vast majority of straight users are polite and
respectful and appreciate what help they can get.   Occasionally we do
get souls who's expectations are well beyond what is reasonable to
expect from a community, this tiny minority sour things for everybody.

Expect nothing and you will be amazed what you can get for nothing.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Zachary Hilbun]

Let me say upfront that I realize the people writing
OSG are getting nothing out of it for themselves. 
Also, there is always going to some investment in
learning a new package.  I think what needs to be
addressed is the large amount of time people spend to
learn a small amount of OSG.

To me it makes sense to have better documentation,
because would you rather have one guy spend an extra
hour writing documentation or have 100 guys spend and
extra hour each trying to figure out how something
works?  When I write code I generally write the
documentation for each class, function and parameter
first.  That way it’s clear in my mind how everything
is supposed to work and I can avoid making the
mistakes in the code.  I think the writing and
debugging of the code goes quicker this way than not
doing the documentation, and in the end I have a nice
document I can give to users.

To my way of thinking the documentation should be such
that a programmer can look at it and ask me few if any
questions.  Without that level of documentation the
users are going to nickel-and-dime you with questions
that should have been addressed by the documentation. 
You ultimately have the choice of answering the
question one-by-one or putting out a document and
being done with it.  A function or class isn’t really
ready for release until you have documentation that
says what it does and how to use it.  You could have
the best new feature in the world, but if people don’t
know what it does or how to use it what have you
accomplished?  I personally would never ask someone to
look through my code to figure out how to call it. 
It’s asking them to do a tremendous amount of work in
order to gather a small amount of information.

The examples are important because it clears up
exactly how things should be done.  Comments in the
examples would make them much easier to use.  I’m not
really sure what some of the examples do because there
is no comment header explaining what is being
demonstrated.  Comments within the code would make it
much easier understand what is going on.

I don’t think a tutorial is needed for concepts that
are common to scene graphs in general.  However, some
of the OSG concepts are unique to OSG and need to be
better explained.

--- Gordon Tomlinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> boils down to an age old saying, you get what you
> pay for when it comes to
> documentation with open source projects
> 
> SGI produced some excellent Performer manuals that
> helped some folks they
> also spent alot of man hours and money producing
> these ( BTW these are still
> very use for people new to Scenegraphs and 3d
> graphics becuase the concepts
> are the same, the only real new things is
> programmable GPU's , I still
> recommend these to newbies)
> 
> Problem to ay is too many folks expect everthing for
> free and expect
> software to write itsself or someone to do it for
> them,  the only way to
> learn how to
> do something is to do it, and no book is ever going
> to give every  one all
> the information they think the should have or what
> they want to achieve.
> 
> As has been said if some people feel theres a short
> coming in th FREE
> documentation,examples, samples or code etc then
> please provide better
> examples, better docs etc... or if you expect
> someone else to do if for you
> then exect to pay for it...
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Gordon
> 
>
__
> Gordon Tomlinson
> Email  : gordon.tomlinson @ overwatch.com
> YIM/AIM: Gordon3dBrit
> MSN IM : Gordon3dBrit @ 3dSceneGraph.com
> 
>
__
> Telephone (Cell): (+1) 571-265-2612 <-- Note New
> Number
> Telephone (Work): (+1) 703-437-7651
> 
> "Self defence is not a function of learning tricks
> but is a function of how quickly and intensely one
> can arouse one's instinct for survival"
> - Master Tambo Tetsura
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Robert
> Penn Taylor
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:02 PM
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Osfield wrote:
>  >
> > In other projects I do occasionally look for
> documentation, but rarely
> > does it help me more than a succinct code example.
>  If you are
> > experienced programmer than its the code that
> tells you everything.
> >
> 
> I'd say the code *can* tell you everything, but
> there are many cases in
> which reading "the code" is just about the least
> time-efficient method
> of figuring it out. Let's say I want to rotate a
> matrix. Which method
> does what I 

Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Gordon Tomlinson]

boils down to an age old saying, you get what you pay for when it comes to
documentation with open source projects

SGI produced some excellent Performer manuals that helped some folks they
also spent alot of man hours and money producing these ( BTW these are still
very use for people new to Scenegraphs and 3d graphics becuase the concepts
are the same, the only real new things is programmable GPU's , I still
recommend these to newbies)

Problem to ay is too many folks expect everthing for free and expect
software to write itsself or someone to do it for them,  the only way to
learn how to
do something is to do it, and no book is ever going to give every  one all
the information they think the should have or what they want to achieve.

As has been said if some people feel theres a short coming in th FREE
documentation,examples, samples or code etc then please provide better
examples, better docs etc... or if you expect someone else to do if for you
then exect to pay for it...


Best Regards

Gordon

__
Gordon Tomlinson
Email  : gordon.tomlinson @ overwatch.com
YIM/AIM: Gordon3dBrit
MSN IM : Gordon3dBrit @ 3dSceneGraph.com

__
Telephone (Cell): (+1) 571-265-2612 <-- Note New Number
Telephone (Work): (+1) 703-437-7651

"Self defence is not a function of learning tricks
but is a function of how quickly and intensely one
can arouse one's instinct for survival"
- Master Tambo Tetsura



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert
Penn Taylor
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:02 PM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials




Robert Osfield wrote:
 >
> In other projects I do occasionally look for documentation, but rarely
> does it help me more than a succinct code example.  If you are
> experienced programmer than its the code that tells you everything.
>

I'd say the code *can* tell you everything, but there are many cases in
which reading "the code" is just about the least time-efficient method
of figuring it out. Let's say I want to rotate a matrix. Which method
does what I need? It's easy enough to find that osg::Matrix::  rotate,
setRotate, and makeRotate exist, but what does each one do? Where do I
look? In the MatrixImplementation header? In the associated cpp? How
about the doxygen generated comments? Or maybe I hunt through 50
examples, none of which has anything explicitly to do with how to rotate
a matrix. Okay, that's four places to look, none of them are terribly
enlightening, and I just spent how long -- probably an hour by the time
I backtrack all the necessary code to understand what's going on in an
example -- trying to figure out which method to use to rotate a matrix.
Maybe by this point I have it and maybe I don't.

Contrast this with the existence of some sort of documentation that
breaks the API down into functional units. I look in doc for the maths
unit, then matrix operations, and there it is: matrix rotations. A few
short examples and a solid explanation of the three ways in osg to
accomplish this. Time spent is maybe five minutes.

Or how about clear doxygen comments in the code? Take a look at
http://www.wxwidgets.org/manuals/stable/wx_wxstring.html#wxstringremove
for an example of clear comments generated from a header. You don't even
need a code example when comments are this clear. Notice also how the
documentation clearly indicates that the function is deprecated, and
even tells you what to replace it with. (Notice also that they maintain
backwards compatibility through at least one major release number.) When
I'm doing wxWidgets work, the doxygen docs are just about the only
reference I need. I rarely need to look at sample code, even though it
does exist. OSG is exactly the reverse, and I notice that it often
eventually results in a frustrated post to the users list asking how to
do something relatively simple. Perhaps the osg community can take a
leaf from wxWidgets' notebook?

I'm not bashing Robert or anyone else for the fact that such
documentation doesn't exist. I understand how much time it takes,
especially when the API code changes as frequently as osg's. But an
answer of "look at the code" just doesn't cut it in many situations.

> I do wonder if too many developers these days are expecting to put in
> too little real effort for the amount of results they are wanting.
> Programming is hard.  Real-time graphics is a BIG topic.  To master
> them you have lavish lots of time.
>

One has to lavish a lot of time, yes, but that time should be lavished
learning the maths and concepts of RT graphics, along with some amount
of time learning an API. That time shouldn't be spent digging through
API code trying to understand how to use basic opera

Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Penn Taylor]

Robert Osfield wrote:
 >
> In other projects I do occasionally look for documentation, but rarely
> does it help me more than a succinct code example.  If you are
> experienced programmer than its the code that tells you everything.
> 

I'd say the code *can* tell you everything, but there are many cases in 
which reading "the code" is just about the least time-efficient method 
of figuring it out. Let's say I want to rotate a matrix. Which method 
does what I need? It's easy enough to find that osg::Matrix::  rotate, 
setRotate, and makeRotate exist, but what does each one do? Where do I 
look? In the MatrixImplementation header? In the associated cpp? How 
about the doxygen generated comments? Or maybe I hunt through 50 
examples, none of which has anything explicitly to do with how to rotate 
a matrix. Okay, that's four places to look, none of them are terribly 
enlightening, and I just spent how long -- probably an hour by the time 
I backtrack all the necessary code to understand what's going on in an 
example -- trying to figure out which method to use to rotate a matrix. 
Maybe by this point I have it and maybe I don't.

Contrast this with the existence of some sort of documentation that 
breaks the API down into functional units. I look in doc for the maths 
unit, then matrix operations, and there it is: matrix rotations. A few 
short examples and a solid explanation of the three ways in osg to 
accomplish this. Time spent is maybe five minutes.

Or how about clear doxygen comments in the code? Take a look at 
http://www.wxwidgets.org/manuals/stable/wx_wxstring.html#wxstringremove 
for an example of clear comments generated from a header. You don't even 
need a code example when comments are this clear. Notice also how the 
documentation clearly indicates that the function is deprecated, and 
even tells you what to replace it with. (Notice also that they maintain 
backwards compatibility through at least one major release number.) When 
I'm doing wxWidgets work, the doxygen docs are just about the only 
reference I need. I rarely need to look at sample code, even though it 
does exist. OSG is exactly the reverse, and I notice that it often 
eventually results in a frustrated post to the users list asking how to 
do something relatively simple. Perhaps the osg community can take a 
leaf from wxWidgets' notebook?

I'm not bashing Robert or anyone else for the fact that such 
documentation doesn't exist. I understand how much time it takes, 
especially when the API code changes as frequently as osg's. But an 
answer of "look at the code" just doesn't cut it in many situations.

> I do wonder if too many developers these days are expecting to put in
> too little real effort for the amount of results they are wanting.
> Programming is hard.  Real-time graphics is a BIG topic.  To master
> them you have lavish lots of time.
> 

One has to lavish a lot of time, yes, but that time should be lavished 
learning the maths and concepts of RT graphics, along with some amount 
of time learning an API. That time shouldn't be spent digging through 
API code trying to understand how to use basic operations that could be 
easily documented.

Again, I'm not bashing anyone. But in my opinion most folks are not 
being unreasonable in the complaint that the documentation is lacking. 
And it's mighty hard to generate that documentation when you're still 
trying to figure it out yourself.

Well, that pretty much wraps up my argument for why people complaining 
about documentation are not automatically lazy, stupid, or bad programmers.

-Penn Taylor
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Rizzen]

The examples are useful, though to me they not part of the documentation
collection, thus did not come to mind during this discussion.

Yet I found it easier first to run through Joe's tutorials before
visiting the OSG examples. The tutorials builds up a usage knowledge
foundation of commonly used classes, making it easier to follow the code
of the examples. It made more sense doing it this way than jumping
directly into the code. Having some background information on how OSG
functions definitely makes it easier to work through the examples.

Rizzen

Robert Osfield wrote:
> Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
>
>   svn rm  examples
>
> ?
>
> On 8/22/07, Rizzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Here is my noob point of view on this topic.
>>
>> Firstly Joe helped me a great deal just by providing us those fantastic
>> tutorials (focusing on one feature at a time) he did for his students at
>> the Navy Academy. Even though I am no guru in OpenGL, I know enough to
>> create the needed results I needed, I managed to create a OSG scene
>> quickly and how to manipulate the scene. For a long time Joe's work was
>> really the only resource in learning OSG. Oh, forget about the generated
>> API documentation, nothing much there to be of much help to a noob.
>>
>> The next good resource to hit the scene is Paul's QSG. This free book,
>> really compliments Joe's work so far. Allowing a noob to have a speedier
>> learning curve than without these two resources.
>>
>> As Paul has mentioned already, he is planning a series of OSG books to
>> covering various aspects of OSG. From the quality of the QSG to the
>> noobs, the series will surely fill in the plenty needed detail that is
>> missing from the QSG.
>>
>> Robert himself has been very helpful in answering question put forward
>> by the community. Often a search through the mail list yields many
>> answers provided by many who have become experienced at using OSG.
>>
>> So I salute all those who have contributed to the current tutorial
>> collection and first 2 books on OSG.
>>
>> Rizzen
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>> 
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/23/07, Luigi Calori <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A related argument is the support of  CMake build of projects that rely
> on OSG (there is at least VPB now, but probably many others and
> probably  more to come)

FYI, I've added CMake support (OSG style) to Present3D and VirtualPlanetBuilder:

  http://present3d.osgforge.org/
  http://virtualplanetbuilder.osgforge.org/

I intend to have CMake support for osgProducer as well.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Luigi Calori]

>An extra resource we could provide would be a svn repository for the
>tutorials.  Getting the tutorials ported across to CMake would also be
>a big gain.  My ideal would be a tutorial set that looks and build
>much like the rest of the OSG, supports all platforms and can easily
>be kept up to date with the latest OSG rev's.
>  
>
Completely agrreed,
I already ported the building of old nps tutorial under CMake, 
integrated with my pre-2.0 CMake build.
If this can fit I can try to revamp it
I think that having an svn repo where tutorial authors have write access 
would speed up development:
My old CMake structure would also allow to keep sources separate from 
CMakeLists, the write permissions could be kept separate.
If this can fit, I volunteer to work on building CMake for tutorial and 
test them under Windows.

A related argument is the support of  CMake build of projects that rely 
on OSG (there is at least VPB now, but probably many others and 
probably  more to come)

this could be another thread though

regards
 Luigi


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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Joseph,

On 8/22/07, Sullivan, Joseph (CDR) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think Robert's question about different users is the key.  The
> examples are absolutely fantastic and work great for some, not so great
> for others.  Tutorials seem to be a helpful bridge.  (The original goal
> of the NPS tutorial set was to get students w/out engineering background
> comfortable enough to dive into the examples.) Soo...
> What does it take to move the tutorials currently on the NPS web site
> over to the osg wiki site?

Well the OSG wiki is a... wiki so I guess it'd be a case of copying
over text and the tutorial code/data.

A couple of weeks back a member of the community ported the tutorials
across work with 2.0, so it'd be appropriate to work from these as a
base.


> Is there anybody that can spare some resources to help the effort?

Well the hardware resources are there, is just a matter of time at the
rock face copying things across and refactoring them, so the resource
we need is will volunteers.  I did have an assistant over the summer
in the form of Martin Lavery, but alas he's now got his dream job of
working at the new Apple store in Glasgow, so I'm afraid I can't
direct any manpower at this myself.

An extra resource we could provide would be a svn repository for the
tutorials.  Getting the tutorials ported across to CMake would also be
a big gain.  My ideal would be a tutorial set that looks and build
much like the rest of the OSG, supports all platforms and can easily
be kept up to date with the latest OSG rev's.


Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Cedric Pinson]

I agree with you when i need doc i read the code and or example.

Alberto Luaces wrote:
> El Miércoles 22 Agosto 2007, Robert Osfield escribió:
>   
>> Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
>>
>>   svn rm  examples
>>
>> ?
>> 
>
> Are you kidding? For me, the examples are the only source of information in 
> order to use the most parts of OSG. I think I could never get the knowledge 
> to use osgShadow from the doxygen reference and without having the examples. 
> The same applies for all the integration examples for QT, wxWidgets, etc.
>
> Please keep them in the repository, they are also good tests for finding bugs 
> in new releases, to give hints to new users, etc
>
> Alberto
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Sullivan, Joseph (CDR)]

Hey All,
Congrats and big thanks to those that have been adding documentation!
I've been largely away from OSG for a while, but the work looks mighty
impressive.
I think Robert's question about different users is the key.  The
examples are absolutely fantastic and work great for some, not so great
for others.  Tutorials seem to be a helpful bridge.  (The original goal
of the NPS tutorial set was to get students w/out engineering background
comfortable enough to dive into the examples.) Soo...
What does it take to move the tutorials currently on the NPS web site
over to the osg wiki site?
Is there anybody that can spare some resources to help the effort?
Thanks,
Joe S.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:osg-users-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Osfield
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:55 AM
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> On 8/22/07, Jeremy L. Moles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:16 +0100, Robert Osfield wrote:
> > > Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
> > >
> > >   svn rm  examples
> > >
> > > ?
> >
> > No, they very much are. :) It's just that those of us that DO use
the
> > examples don't post here saying so...
> 
> Its O.K. I'm not serious about to remove them, just frustrating my
> frustration at big chunks of work that is dedicated to helping new
> users being ignored.
> 
> > As far as example usefulness is concerned, "no news is good news."
> > Honestly, in contrast to the entire discussion at hand, I _rarely_
use
> > documentation. I always just look at the code. Documentation in a
formal
> > sense makes me want to take a nap...
> 
> In other projects I do occasionally look for documentation, but rarely
> does it help me more than a succinct code example.  If you are
> experienced programmer than its the code that tells you everything.
> 
> It would be interesting to do a profile of different users to see what
> types of assistance to get their programs written they find most
> effective.  When I say assistance I mean documentation, mailing list
> archives, examples, code comments, code itself, class naming, method
> naming.
> 
> I do wonder if too many developers these days are expecting to put in
> too little real effort for the amount of results they are wanting.
> Programming is hard.  Real-time graphics is a BIG topic.  To master
> them you have lavish lots of time.
> 
> When I first started programming as a kid there was just practically
> nothing available relative to today, I didn't know any better, I
> enjoyed in a perverse way learning by myself how to code Z80
> assembler.  Yes it took weeks just to get a few coloured sprites
> animating across the screen, but I didn't go ranting at anyone for
> lack of guidance and docs, I just enjoyed figuring it out and getting
> the final result.  Fast forward to today and the with 10 lines of code
> in the OSG you can create and load a terabyte sized 3D world and
> interact with it at a solid 60Hz.  But yet some people seem to expect
> more much more.
> 
> Robert.
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g
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Frank Bergmann]

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:osg-users-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Martz
> 
> Eric Wing has put a few very informative videos on the OSG wiki
> regarding
> installing/using OSG on a Mac:
> http://www.openscenegraph.org/index.php?page=Tutorials.MacOSXTips
> 

Alas, all the videos on that page seem to point to broken links. Any chance
of making them work again?

Thanks
Frank


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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Gordon Tomlinson]

I would also add see Opengl Distilled  ;)

Best Regards

Gordon

__
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Email  : gordon.tomlinson @ overwatch.com
YIM/AIM: Gordon3dBrit
MSN IM : Gordon3dBrit @ 3dSceneGraph.com

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Telephone (Work): (+1) 703-437-7651

"Self defence is not a function of learning tricks
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can arouse one's instinct for survival"
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul
Martz
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:05 PM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials


> As the author, you
> clearly see the relationship with OpenGL. For a newbie, this
> relationship is not immediatly obvious.

Good point, thanks for the reminder. I always try to be concise, sometimes
to a fault. I could add a few extra sentences here and there saying "this is
identical to OpenGL, see the OpenGL red book for more info" and I'll try to
remember to do that.

> Here's my proposal for putting together tutorials without
> breaking the bank:  YouTube Screen Casts.

Eric Wing has put a few very informative videos on the OSG wiki regarding
installing/using OSG on a Mac:
http://www.openscenegraph.org/index.php?page=Tutorials.MacOSXTips

Your PHP cookies video shows this same technique can also be used for
programming topics.
   -Paul

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

> As the author, you 
> clearly see the relationship with OpenGL. For a newbie, this 
> relationship is not immediatly obvious.

Good point, thanks for the reminder. I always try to be concise, sometimes
to a fault. I could add a few extra sentences here and there saying "this is
identical to OpenGL, see the OpenGL red book for more info" and I'll try to
remember to do that.

> Here's my proposal for putting together tutorials without 
> breaking the bank:  YouTube Screen Casts.

Eric Wing has put a few very informative videos on the OSG wiki regarding
installing/using OSG on a Mac:
http://www.openscenegraph.org/index.php?page=Tutorials.MacOSXTips

Your PHP cookies video shows this same technique can also be used for
programming topics.
   -Paul

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

These are all good topics and most are planned for inclusion into the future
OSG Programming Guide. They will certainly be included in the intermediate
to advanced OSG courses that Bob and I teach:
http://www.skew-matrix.com/training.asp

(Shameless plug: only a couple slots left in the Alabama course.)
   -Paul


> 1) How does OpenSceneGraph deal with performance issues ? --> 
> explain the multithread configurations (how their divide 
> CULL/DRAW), the synchronization issues, in a sythetic and 
> comprehensible way...
> 2) How are OpenSceneGraph internals designed for the culling issues ?
> 2') How are OpenSceneGraph internals designed to attack OGL 
> pipeline (draw
> calls) ? --> like developped above context 
> push/pop/inheritance ; constitution of the rendering list ; 
> orders of drawing for developpers of SFX with transparency 
> (bins, and so on) ; maybe also a word about the default 
> lighting equation using materials when no shader are set for 
> newbies to SFX development (example things like the use of 
> emissive, manners to set blending operation ie TexEnv vs or 
> plus TexEnvCombine, even if the latter is more here an OpenGL 
> problem)...

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

> As far as example usefulness is concerned, "no news is good news."
> Honestly, in contrast to the entire discussion at hand, I 
> _rarely_ use documentation. I always just look at the code. 
> Documentation in a formal sense makes me want to take a nap...

Ironically, I agree with you, but don't tell anyone, it would ruin my
reputation as a writer. :-)

When I'm trying to learn some new aspect of OSG, I look for an existing
example first, then I usually browse through related header files used by
the example, then I dig into the source code if I need more info. Sometimes
I resort to breakpoints in OSG while running an example to find out what's
really going on.

Printed documentation, I rarely read it cover to cover. I usually look at
the TOC or index and jump to the section I'm interested in. And I've
actually used the Quick Start Guide this way: If I'm trying to remember how
to do something that I _know_ I covered in the QSG, I look it up in the TOC
or index and read what I wrote.
   -Paul

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/22/07, Jeremy L. Moles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:16 +0100, Robert Osfield wrote:
> > Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
> >
> >   svn rm  examples
> >
> > ?
>
> No, they very much are. :) It's just that those of us that DO use the
> examples don't post here saying so...

Its O.K. I'm not serious about to remove them, just frustrating my
frustration at big chunks of work that is dedicated to helping new
users being ignored.

> As far as example usefulness is concerned, "no news is good news."
> Honestly, in contrast to the entire discussion at hand, I _rarely_ use
> documentation. I always just look at the code. Documentation in a formal
> sense makes me want to take a nap...

In other projects I do occasionally look for documentation, but rarely
does it help me more than a succinct code example.  If you are
experienced programmer than its the code that tells you everything.

It would be interesting to do a profile of different users to see what
types of assistance to get their programs written they find most
effective.  When I say assistance I mean documentation, mailing list
archives, examples, code comments, code itself, class naming, method
naming.

I do wonder if too many developers these days are expecting to put in
too little real effort for the amount of results they are wanting.
Programming is hard.  Real-time graphics is a BIG topic.  To master
them you have lavish lots of time.

When I first started programming as a kid there was just practically
nothing available relative to today, I didn't know any better, I
enjoyed in a perverse way learning by myself how to code Z80
assembler.  Yes it took weeks just to get a few coloured sprites
animating across the screen, but I didn't go ranting at anyone for
lack of guidance and docs, I just enjoyed figuring it out and getting
the final result.  Fast forward to today and the with 10 lines of code
in the OSG you can create and load a terabyte sized 3D world and
interact with it at a solid 60Hz.  But yet some people seem to expect
more much more.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Alberto Luaces]

El Miércoles 22 Agosto 2007, Robert Osfield escribió:
> Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
>
>   svn rm  examples
>
> ?

Are you kidding? For me, the examples are the only source of information in 
order to use the most parts of OSG. I think I could never get the knowledge 
to use osgShadow from the doxygen reference and without having the examples. 
The same applies for all the integration examples for QT, wxWidgets, etc.

Please keep them in the repository, they are also good tests for finding bugs 
in new releases, to give hints to new users, etc

Alberto
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jeremy L. Moles]

On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 19:16 +0100, Robert Osfield wrote:
> Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a
> 
>   svn rm  examples
> 
> ?

No, they very much are. :) It's just that those of us that DO use the
examples don't post here saying so...

As far as example usefulness is concerned, "no news is good news."
Honestly, in contrast to the entire discussion at hand, I _rarely_ use
documentation. I always just look at the code. Documentation in a formal
sense makes me want to take a nap...

> On 8/22/07, Rizzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Here is my noob point of view on this topic.
> >
> > Firstly Joe helped me a great deal just by providing us those fantastic
> > tutorials (focusing on one feature at a time) he did for his students at
> > the Navy Academy. Even though I am no guru in OpenGL, I know enough to
> > create the needed results I needed, I managed to create a OSG scene
> > quickly and how to manipulate the scene. For a long time Joe's work was
> > really the only resource in learning OSG. Oh, forget about the generated
> > API documentation, nothing much there to be of much help to a noob.
> >
> > The next good resource to hit the scene is Paul's QSG. This free book,
> > really compliments Joe's work so far. Allowing a noob to have a speedier
> > learning curve than without these two resources.
> >
> > As Paul has mentioned already, he is planning a series of OSG books to
> > covering various aspects of OSG. From the quality of the QSG to the
> > noobs, the series will surely fill in the plenty needed detail that is
> > missing from the QSG.
> >
> > Robert himself has been very helpful in answering question put forward
> > by the community. Often a search through the mail list yields many
> > answers provided by many who have become experienced at using OSG.
> >
> > So I salute all those who have contributed to the current tutorial
> > collection and first 2 books on OSG.
> >
> > Rizzen
> > ___
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> > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
> >
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Rather than rant get off your arse, the website is a wiki YOU YES YOU
can help arrange and contribute things.

On 8/22/07, mkg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The best kind of code documentation, for me at least, has always been
> annotated online demo code, such as NeHe's OpenGL walkthroughs and
> Irrlicht3D's online tutorials:
> http://nehe.gamedev.net/
> http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/tutorials.html
>
> The main problem with OSG's documentation isn't that there's not enough
> of it, but that it's poorly presented on the website. You have to click
> twice before finding the tutorials page, and then you're presented with
> an undifferentiated forest of links that happen to include Joseph
> Sullivan's excellent set of easy-to-browse tutorials, along with other
> people's random mystery tarballs.
>
> Contrast this with irrlicht3d's presentation (see link above), where
> there's one official tutorial page, linked directly off the main page,
> with thumbnails for each tutorial.
>
> What would be best, in my opinion, is to get rid of that splash page
> (!), and on the main page have the sidebar display "Downloads",
> "Tutorials", "API", and "Other references" explicitly, at the top. I
> would get rid of the first 6 items in the current sidebar and just move
> them to the "About" page, because most people don't care (sorry) about
> things like "Introduction" and "History". The tutorials should all be
> webpages rather than tarballs, and be indexed with thumbnails on the
> tutorials page, in rough order of difficulty (Joseph Sullivan has it
> right). Oh, and why is there a splash page?? (Okay, ending rant.)
>
> *Wheeze, wheeze,*
> -- Matt
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Are the examples of no use to any one??? Shall I just do a

  svn rm  examples

?

On 8/22/07, Rizzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is my noob point of view on this topic.
>
> Firstly Joe helped me a great deal just by providing us those fantastic
> tutorials (focusing on one feature at a time) he did for his students at
> the Navy Academy. Even though I am no guru in OpenGL, I know enough to
> create the needed results I needed, I managed to create a OSG scene
> quickly and how to manipulate the scene. For a long time Joe's work was
> really the only resource in learning OSG. Oh, forget about the generated
> API documentation, nothing much there to be of much help to a noob.
>
> The next good resource to hit the scene is Paul's QSG. This free book,
> really compliments Joe's work so far. Allowing a noob to have a speedier
> learning curve than without these two resources.
>
> As Paul has mentioned already, he is planning a series of OSG books to
> covering various aspects of OSG. From the quality of the QSG to the
> noobs, the series will surely fill in the plenty needed detail that is
> missing from the QSG.
>
> Robert himself has been very helpful in answering question put forward
> by the community. Often a search through the mail list yields many
> answers provided by many who have become experienced at using OSG.
>
> So I salute all those who have contributed to the current tutorial
> collection and first 2 books on OSG.
>
> Rizzen
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[mkg]

The best kind of code documentation, for me at least, has always been 
annotated online demo code, such as NeHe's OpenGL walkthroughs and 
Irrlicht3D's online tutorials:
http://nehe.gamedev.net/
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/tutorials.html

The main problem with OSG's documentation isn't that there's not enough 
of it, but that it's poorly presented on the website. You have to click 
twice before finding the tutorials page, and then you're presented with 
an undifferentiated forest of links that happen to include Joseph 
Sullivan's excellent set of easy-to-browse tutorials, along with other 
people's random mystery tarballs.

Contrast this with irrlicht3d's presentation (see link above), where 
there's one official tutorial page, linked directly off the main page, 
with thumbnails for each tutorial.

What would be best, in my opinion, is to get rid of that splash page 
(!), and on the main page have the sidebar display "Downloads", 
"Tutorials", "API", and "Other references" explicitly, at the top. I 
would get rid of the first 6 items in the current sidebar and just move 
them to the "About" page, because most people don't care (sorry) about 
things like "Introduction" and "History". The tutorials should all be 
webpages rather than tarballs, and be indexed with thumbnails on the 
tutorials page, in rough order of difficulty (Joseph Sullivan has it 
right). Oh, and why is there a splash page?? (Okay, ending rant.)

*Wheeze, wheeze,*
-- Matt
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Rizzen]

Here is my noob point of view on this topic.

Firstly Joe helped me a great deal just by providing us those fantastic
tutorials (focusing on one feature at a time) he did for his students at
the Navy Academy. Even though I am no guru in OpenGL, I know enough to
create the needed results I needed, I managed to create a OSG scene
quickly and how to manipulate the scene. For a long time Joe's work was
really the only resource in learning OSG. Oh, forget about the generated
API documentation, nothing much there to be of much help to a noob.

The next good resource to hit the scene is Paul's QSG. This free book,
really compliments Joe's work so far. Allowing a noob to have a speedier
learning curve than without these two resources.

As Paul has mentioned already, he is planning a series of OSG books to
covering various aspects of OSG. From the quality of the QSG to the
noobs, the series will surely fill in the plenty needed detail that is
missing from the QSG.

Robert himself has been very helpful in answering question put forward
by the community. Often a search through the mail list yields many
answers provided by many who have become experienced at using OSG.

So I salute all those who have contributed to the current tutorial
collection and first 2 books on OSG.

Rizzen
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/22/07, Jeremy L. Moles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 06:14 -0400, Gordon Tomlinson wrote:
> > Very well said Robert
> >
> > And Great Job Paul Martz and  everyone who helps and contributes
> >
> > But can some one please press F5 for me, its just too much effort to have to
> > compile things my self ;)
>
> Press F5!? Real men run make.

No real men type

  make -j 4

And laugh at the build fly build.

Then weep at the power bill :-)
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jeremy L. Moles]

On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 06:14 -0400, Gordon Tomlinson wrote:
> Very well said Robert
> 
> And Great Job Paul Martz and  everyone who helps and contributes
> 
> But can some one please press F5 for me, its just too much effort to have to
> compile things my self ;) 

Press F5!? Real men run make.

:)

> __
> Gordon Tomlinson 
> 
> Email   : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> YIM/AIM : gordon3dBrit
> MSN IM  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Website : www.vis-sim.com www.gordontomlinson.com 
> 
> __
> "Self defence is not a function of learning tricks 
> but is a function of how quickly and intensely one 
> can arouse one's instinct for survival" 
> -Master Tambo Tetsura 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
> Osfield
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:55 AM
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> One thing we can be sure of is that they will *never* be enough
> documentation for everybody.  This isn't an OSG specific issue, it isn't a
> closed source vs open source issue, it isn't even an IT specific issue, it
> applies to everything in life.
> 
> As Winston Churchil said (this is from memory so It might be little
> mis-phrased):
> 
> "One can please all of the people some of time, or some of the people all of
> the time, but you can never please all the people all the time".
> 
> --
> 
> I occasionally come across emails on osg-users from users that appear to me
> to be almost asking for others to write their program for them, to teach
> them every little detail of what they need to know.  You write code and
> publishing it for free and with an  open license, you provide free support
> and spend you time helping people out, yet this still isn't enough for some,
> the mere act of giving a great deal seems to in somehow mean that you owe
> others even more.
> 
> So... I feel for Paul Martz, he's put a big effort into to getting the Quick
> Start Guide, climbed a peak, taken a short rest, but now its a case of "well
> actually that peak you climbed was just a foothill, you need to climb this
> great mountain beyond, and oh BTW can you do it for free too".
> 
> We are a community, so we don't walk alone, one must carry ones own weight
> though, otherwise you can drag others back.  We can all contribute in
> different ways.  Directly by helping write the books and tutorials.  Or by
> *purchasing* the books rather than just downloading the free pdf.
> 
> Robert.
> ___
> osg-users mailing list
> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

On 8/22/07, Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here's my proposal for putting together tutorials without breaking the bank:
> YouTube
> Screen Casts. I recently learned a few PHP programming tricks from this
> serie:
>
> >>>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5egpgAVxQI&mode=related&search=
>
> On the Mac, there are a few free solutions for doing this. There's no need
> for a camera, since you are just capturing the screen. Then, you can post it
> on YouTube, which saves you the bandwidth
> distribution cost. Just an idea.

Be prepared to volunteer your own time as well others :-)
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Nick Prudent]

Robert,

By the way, the fact that it doesn't work like MFC is definitly not a 
criticisim. MFC had its share of problems. As I said, I prefer the approach 
taken by OSG. My only point for fellow newbies is to not give up and not 
expect to be up an running quickly because you know OpenGL. As the author, 
you clearly see the relationship with OpenGL. For a newbie, this 
relationship is not immediatly obvious.


Here's my proposal for putting together tutorials without breaking the bank: 
YouTube

Screen Casts. I recently learned a few PHP programming tricks from this
serie:


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5egpgAVxQI&mode=related&search=


On the Mac, there are a few free solutions for doing this. There's no need 
for a camera, since you are just capturing the screen. Then, you can post it 
on YouTube, which saves you the bandwidth

distribution cost. Just an idea.

- Nick -



From: "Robert Osfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:38:07 +0100

Hi Nick,

On 8/22/07, Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I too have been programming OpenGL for while (10 years) and I find 
learning

> OSG to be quite humbling: very few of my OpenGL skills are immediatly
> transferable. OSG is very much like what the MFC ins to Win32, however, 
with
> MFC, there's always a way to use Win32 calls directly anywhere in the 
code.

> OSG does not allow this, which is more elegant, but makes it harder to
> "transition" from direct OpenGL.

I am curious about your experience.  The OSG deliberately has quite a
thin OO layer on top of OpenGL, the granularity of state is follows
pretty closely to that of OpenGL, the naming convention of OpenGL has
almost entirely been honoured so glTexGen is osg::TexGen etc.  OpenGL
modes are just a pass through and can be set directly on a StateSet.
One of my intentions with this thin mapping was the ability to reuse
OpenGL knowledge and documentation.

The big difference between using the OSG and OpenGL really comes from
the OSG being OO and having a retained model rather than immediate
model like OpenGL, but its a scene graph so its rather comes with the
territory.  I would have thought of all the scene graphs in existence
the OSG is probably the most OpenGL centric in its naming/granularity.
 So its it just the OO or scene graph aspect that is the stumbling
point?

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Gordon Tomlinson]

Also try being on Robert or Paul's end

{START SOAP BOX RANT}

Over the years( eek getting on for 20 ) were I have been active on GL,
Performer list, Vega, Vega Prime, OGL and OSG list among many providing
including providing FAQ's a vis-sim.com and else were etc

Regularly  I get demands for help not request buts demands and which can get
actually quite abusive at time  because I'm not willing to spend hours
writing applications, samples and examples or why I won't create this flight
file for someone, it amazes how people want you do do stuff for free so that
they can make money or a living of your time.   

I'm sure Robert and other get their fair share of these things as well

Aghhh, never mind the replies when you tell them that yes I can help
on these time comsuing request, heres my rates .. If it was not so
annoying it might even be funny

{END SOAP BOX RANT}


__
Gordon Tomlinson 

Email   : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
YIM/AIM : gordon3dBrit
MSN IM  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website : www.vis-sim.com www.gordontomlinson.com 

__
"Self defence is not a function of learning tricks 
but is a function of how quickly and intensely one 
can arouse one's instinct for survival" 
-Master Tambo Tetsura 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
Osfield
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:55 AM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

One thing we can be sure of is that they will *never* be enough
documentation for everybody.  This isn't an OSG specific issue, it isn't a
closed source vs open source issue, it isn't even an IT specific issue, it
applies to everything in life.

As Winston Churchil said (this is from memory so It might be little
mis-phrased):

"One can please all of the people some of time, or some of the people all of
the time, but you can never please all the people all the time".

--

I occasionally come across emails on osg-users from users that appear to me
to be almost asking for others to write their program for them, to teach
them every little detail of what they need to know.  You write code and
publishing it for free and with an  open license, you provide free support
and spend you time helping people out, yet this still isn't enough for some,
the mere act of giving a great deal seems to in somehow mean that you owe
others even more.

So... I feel for Paul Martz, he's put a big effort into to getting the Quick
Start Guide, climbed a peak, taken a short rest, but now its a case of "well
actually that peak you climbed was just a foothill, you need to climb this
great mountain beyond, and oh BTW can you do it for free too".

We are a community, so we don't walk alone, one must carry ones own weight
though, otherwise you can drag others back.  We can all contribute in
different ways.  Directly by helping write the books and tutorials.  Or by
*purchasing* the books rather than just downloading the free pdf.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Gordon Tomlinson]

Christophe

I look forward to reading this once you have written it for use all


__
Gordon Tomlinson 

Email   : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
YIM/AIM : gordon3dBrit
MSN IM  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website : www.vis-sim.com www.gordontomlinson.com 

__
"Self defence is not a function of learning tricks 
but is a function of how quickly and intensely one 
can arouse one's instinct for survival" 
-Master Tambo Tetsura 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christophe
Medard
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:08 AM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

Hi all,

Hoping to help outline the "not-so-easy-to-cope-with-points-with-OSG"...
I'm in the very same case : being used to OpenGL and by-the -way having used
a lot OpenGL Performer for example when designing a lot of special effects
for real time simulators.
The main difference between OpenSceneGraph and OpenGL is that (as Nick said)
you don't directly invoke OpenGL calls when implementing your own NodeKits
in OSG. Even in the basic bricks are logically the same (TexGen, Lights,
Materials, and so on), there is an effort to do to understand how
OpenSceneGraph in the background attacks the OGL rendering pipe (contexts
push/pop, lists corresponding to OGL rendering orders, etc.).

I think it's the point that Nicks points out. (Talking about that, it would
be a good think to explain how stateattributes inheritance between nodes is
performed underneath - for me it poses no real problem cos Performer was
quite alike).

But more, to resume my point of view, there are three points that would be
interesting to document in a "programming guide manner" (maybe to add to the
Skew Matrix Quick Start Guide ?) :

1) How does OpenSceneGraph deal with performance issues ? --> explain the
multithread configurations (how their divide CULL/DRAW), the synchronization
issues, in a sythetic and comprehensible way...
2) How are OpenSceneGraph internals designed for the culling issues ?
2') How are OpenSceneGraph internals designed to attack OGL pipeline (draw
calls) ? --> like developped above context push/pop/inheritance ;
constitution of the rendering list ; orders of drawing for developpers of
SFX with transparency (bins, and so on) ; maybe also a word about the
default lighting equation using materials when no shader are set for newbies
to SFX development (example things like the use of emissive, manners to set
blending operation ie TexEnv vs or plus TexEnvCombine, even if the latter is
more here an OpenGL problem)...

Those 3 points may be a pain even for non-beginner developpers and aren't
really clear, looking only at as-is documentation and samples...
Let's be serious, the API is really easy-to-use for users just needing a
scene format ans and interactive scene graph to design interactive
applications, without any own SFX need. But low-level features are to be
perfecly known and understood for those developping their own NodeKits and
there it needs effort : you just have to spent time looking the code to make
your own idea about the whole thing...

That's just an opinion.

--
Christophe Médard
Société OKTAL (http://www.oktal.fr)
2 impasse Boudeville
31100 Toulouse (France)
Tél. : (+33) 5 62 11 50 10
Fax : (+33) 5 62 11 50 29


- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Osfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials


> Hi Nick,
>
> On 8/22/07, Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I too have been programming OpenGL for while (10 years) and I find 
>> learning
>> OSG to be quite humbling: very few of my OpenGL skills are immediatly
>> transferable. OSG is very much like what the MFC ins to Win32, however, 
>> with
>> MFC, there's always a way to use Win32 calls directly anywhere in the 
>> code.
>> OSG does not allow this, which is more elegant, but makes it harder to
>> "transition" from direct OpenGL.
>
> I am curious about your experience.  The OSG deliberately has quite a
> thin OO layer on top of OpenGL, the granularity of state is follows
> pretty closely to that of OpenGL, the naming convention of OpenGL has
> almost entirely been honoured so glTexGen is osg::TexGen etc.  OpenGL
> modes are just a pass through and can be set directly on a StateSet.
> One of my intentions with this thin mapping was the ability to reuse
> OpenGL knowledge and documentation.
>
> The big difference between using the OSG and OpenGL really comes from
> the OSG being OO and having a retained model rather than immediate
> model like OpenGL, but its a scene graph so its rather comes with the
> territory.  I w

Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Marcus Fritzen]

I also just want to say thank you to Paul, Robert and all the others. 
The QSG is a good point to start and for everything which goes further 
you have to read, search or ask the community! I was respectivly I am 
also quite new to OSG, but every day I get a little bit more further ;)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
> Osfield
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:55 AM
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
>
> One thing we can be sure of is that they will *never* be enough
> documentation for everybody.  This isn't an OSG specific issue, it isn't a
> closed source vs open source issue, it isn't even an IT specific issue, it
> applies to everything in life.
>
> As Winston Churchil said (this is from memory so It might be little
> mis-phrased):
>
> "One can please all of the people some of time, or some of the people all of
> the time, but you can never please all the people all the time".
>
> --
>
> I occasionally come across emails on osg-users from users that appear to me
> to be almost asking for others to write their program for them, to teach
> them every little detail of what they need to know.  You write code and
> publishing it for free and with an  open license, you provide free support
> and spend you time helping people out, yet this still isn't enough for some,
> the mere act of giving a great deal seems to in somehow mean that you owe
> others even more.
>
> So... I feel for Paul Martz, he's put a big effort into to getting the Quick
> Start Guide, climbed a peak, taken a short rest, but now its a case of "well
> actually that peak you climbed was just a foothill, you need to climb this
> great mountain beyond, and oh BTW can you do it for free too".
>
> We are a community, so we don't walk alone, one must carry ones own weight
> though, otherwise you can drag others back.  We can all contribute in
> different ways.  Directly by helping write the books and tutorials.  Or by
> *purchasing* the books rather than just downloading the free pdf.
>
> Robert.
> ___
> osg-users mailing list
> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>
>
> ___
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> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>
>   

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Gordon Tomlinson]

Very well said Robert

And Great Job Paul Martz and  everyone who helps and contributes

But can some one please press F5 for me, its just too much effort to have to
compile things my self ;) 


__
Gordon Tomlinson 

Email   : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
YIM/AIM : gordon3dBrit
MSN IM  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website : www.vis-sim.com www.gordontomlinson.com 

__
"Self defence is not a function of learning tricks 
but is a function of how quickly and intensely one 
can arouse one's instinct for survival" 
-Master Tambo Tetsura 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
Osfield
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:55 AM
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

One thing we can be sure of is that they will *never* be enough
documentation for everybody.  This isn't an OSG specific issue, it isn't a
closed source vs open source issue, it isn't even an IT specific issue, it
applies to everything in life.

As Winston Churchil said (this is from memory so It might be little
mis-phrased):

"One can please all of the people some of time, or some of the people all of
the time, but you can never please all the people all the time".

--

I occasionally come across emails on osg-users from users that appear to me
to be almost asking for others to write their program for them, to teach
them every little detail of what they need to know.  You write code and
publishing it for free and with an  open license, you provide free support
and spend you time helping people out, yet this still isn't enough for some,
the mere act of giving a great deal seems to in somehow mean that you owe
others even more.

So... I feel for Paul Martz, he's put a big effort into to getting the Quick
Start Guide, climbed a peak, taken a short rest, but now its a case of "well
actually that peak you climbed was just a foothill, you need to climb this
great mountain beyond, and oh BTW can you do it for free too".

We are a community, so we don't walk alone, one must carry ones own weight
though, otherwise you can drag others back.  We can all contribute in
different ways.  Directly by helping write the books and tutorials.  Or by
*purchasing* the books rather than just downloading the free pdf.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

One thing we can be sure of is that they will *never* be enough
documentation for everybody.  This isn't an OSG specific issue, it
isn't a closed source vs open source issue, it isn't even an IT
specific issue, it applies to everything in life.

As Winston Churchil said (this is from memory so It might be little
mis-phrased):

"One can please all of the people some of time, or some of the people
all of the time, but you can never please all the people all the
time".

--

I occasionally come across emails on osg-users from users that appear
to me to be almost asking for others to write their program for them,
to teach them every little detail of what they need to know.  You
write code and publishing it for free and with an  open license, you
provide free support and spend you time helping people out, yet this
still isn't enough for some, the mere act of giving a great deal seems
to in somehow mean that you owe others even more.

So... I feel for Paul Martz, he's put a big effort into to getting the
Quick Start Guide, climbed a peak, taken a short rest, but now its a
case of "well actually that peak you climbed was just a foothill, you
need to climb this great mountain beyond, and oh BTW can you do it for
free too".

We are a community, so we don't walk alone, one must carry ones own
weight though, otherwise you can drag others back.  We can all
contribute in different ways.  Directly by helping write the books and
tutorials.  Or by *purchasing* the books rather than just downloading
the free pdf.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Christophe Medard]

Hi all,

Hoping to help outline the "not-so-easy-to-cope-with-points-with-OSG"...
I'm in the very same case : being used to OpenGL and by-the -way having used 
a lot OpenGL Performer for example when designing a lot of special effects 
for real time simulators.
The main difference between OpenSceneGraph and OpenGL is that (as Nick said) 
you don't directly invoke OpenGL calls when implementing your own NodeKits 
in OSG. Even in the basic bricks are logically the same (TexGen, Lights, 
Materials, and so on), there is an effort to do to understand how 
OpenSceneGraph in the background attacks the OGL rendering pipe (contexts 
push/pop, lists corresponding to OGL rendering orders, etc.).

I think it's the point that Nicks points out. (Talking about that, it would 
be a good think to explain how stateattributes inheritance between nodes is 
performed underneath - for me it poses no real problem cos Performer was 
quite alike).

But more, to resume my point of view, there are three points that would be 
interesting to document in a "programming guide manner" (maybe to add to the 
Skew Matrix Quick Start Guide ?) :

1) How does OpenSceneGraph deal with performance issues ? --> explain the 
multithread configurations (how their divide CULL/DRAW), the synchronization 
issues, in a sythetic and comprehensible way...
2) How are OpenSceneGraph internals designed for the culling issues ?
2') How are OpenSceneGraph internals designed to attack OGL pipeline (draw 
calls) ? --> like developped above context push/pop/inheritance ; 
constitution of the rendering list ; orders of drawing for developpers of 
SFX with transparency (bins, and so on) ; maybe also a word about the 
default lighting equation using materials when no shader are set for newbies 
to SFX development (example things like the use of emissive, manners to set 
blending operation ie TexEnv vs or plus TexEnvCombine, even if the latter is 
more here an OpenGL problem)...

Those 3 points may be a pain even for non-beginner developpers and aren't 
really clear, looking only at as-is documentation and samples...
Let's be serious, the API is really easy-to-use for users just needing a 
scene format ans and interactive scene graph to design interactive 
applications, without any own SFX need. But low-level features are to be 
perfecly known and understood for those developping their own NodeKits and 
there it needs effort : you just have to spent time looking the code to make 
your own idea about the whole thing...

That's just an opinion.

-- 
Christophe Médard
Société OKTAL (http://www.oktal.fr)
2 impasse Boudeville
31100 Toulouse (France)
Tél. : (+33) 5 62 11 50 10
Fax : (+33) 5 62 11 50 29


- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Osfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials


> Hi Nick,
>
> On 8/22/07, Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I too have been programming OpenGL for while (10 years) and I find 
>> learning
>> OSG to be quite humbling: very few of my OpenGL skills are immediatly
>> transferable. OSG is very much like what the MFC ins to Win32, however, 
>> with
>> MFC, there's always a way to use Win32 calls directly anywhere in the 
>> code.
>> OSG does not allow this, which is more elegant, but makes it harder to
>> "transition" from direct OpenGL.
>
> I am curious about your experience.  The OSG deliberately has quite a
> thin OO layer on top of OpenGL, the granularity of state is follows
> pretty closely to that of OpenGL, the naming convention of OpenGL has
> almost entirely been honoured so glTexGen is osg::TexGen etc.  OpenGL
> modes are just a pass through and can be set directly on a StateSet.
> One of my intentions with this thin mapping was the ability to reuse
> OpenGL knowledge and documentation.
>
> The big difference between using the OSG and OpenGL really comes from
> the OSG being OO and having a retained model rather than immediate
> model like OpenGL, but its a scene graph so its rather comes with the
> territory.  I would have thought of all the scene graphs in existence
> the OSG is probably the most OpenGL centric in its naming/granularity.
> So its it just the OO or scene graph aspect that is the stumbling
> point?
>
> Robert.
> ___
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> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org 

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Nick,

On 8/22/07, Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I too have been programming OpenGL for while (10 years) and I find learning
> OSG to be quite humbling: very few of my OpenGL skills are immediatly
> transferable. OSG is very much like what the MFC ins to Win32, however, with
> MFC, there's always a way to use Win32 calls directly anywhere in the code.
> OSG does not allow this, which is more elegant, but makes it harder to
> "transition" from direct OpenGL.

I am curious about your experience.  The OSG deliberately has quite a
thin OO layer on top of OpenGL, the granularity of state is follows
pretty closely to that of OpenGL, the naming convention of OpenGL has
almost entirely been honoured so glTexGen is osg::TexGen etc.  OpenGL
modes are just a pass through and can be set directly on a StateSet.
One of my intentions with this thin mapping was the ability to reuse
OpenGL knowledge and documentation.

The big difference between using the OSG and OpenGL really comes from
the OSG being OO and having a retained model rather than immediate
model like OpenGL, but its a scene graph so its rather comes with the
territory.  I would have thought of all the scene graphs in existence
the OSG is probably the most OpenGL centric in its naming/granularity.
 So its it just the OO or scene graph aspect that is the stumbling
point?

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

> Another problem they all 
> have is limited support for dotNet.

I always thought it was ".NET has limited support for standard C/C++"... :-)

> With respect to OSG specifically I would say the Quick Start 
> guide is good as far as it goes.  There is much it does not 
> cover however.  The Reference Manual doesn't cover everything 
> either, and much of what it does cover is simply a single 
> sentence that is not necessarly meaningful.

I agree, those are true statements. But things could be worse. It could be
March 2007, when neither of these books existed. There are plans to improve
the existing reference Manuals, and also plans for other books, as I
mentioned at the OSG BOF a couple weeks ago:
http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/attachment/wiki/Support/SIGGRAPH2
007/Presentation.ppt

   -Paul

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Nick Prudent]

Zachary,

I too have been programming OpenGL for while (10 years) and I find learning 
OSG to be quite humbling: very few of my OpenGL skills are immediatly 
transferable. OSG is very much like what the MFC ins to Win32, however, with 
MFC, there's always a way to use Win32 calls directly anywhere in the code. 
OSG does not allow this, which is more elegant, but makes it harder to 
"transition" from direct OpenGL.


I understand that the documentation is at it's infancy, so let's give it 
time and try to contribute in making it better.


- Nick -


From: Zachary Hilbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:13:29 -0700 (PDT)

The lack of documentation is very typical of Open
Source software.  I've looked at other Open Source 3D
packages and they all have similar problems.  Another
problem they all have is limited support for dotNet.

The creators of the different software I have looked
at are typically more interested in adding features
than they are in documentating the features they
already have.  If you are trying to learn it, it's a
real problem because if a feature is not documented it
might as well not exist.  If you are working in a
professional environment then the cost of a commercial
package and learning it could be less than the cost of
your time to learn a free but poorly documented
package.

With respect to OSG specifically I would say the Quick
Start guide is good as far as it goes.  There is much
it does not cover however.  The Reference Manual
doesn't cover everything either, and much of what it
does cover is simply a single sentence that is not
necessarly meaningful.  There are several example apps
but they are not commented.  I don't even know what
some of them are supposed to do after having looked at
them.  Usually I can guess what is going on inside of
them, but because of the lack of comments sometimes I
don't really know why something is being done.

I've written a lot of OpenGL, read the OpenInventor
book, learned other 3D packages, and taken a graduate
course in Computer Graphics.  I still find myself
having to guess at what a particular class or function
is supposed to do or how a particular function is
supposed to be called.  I can imagine how difficult it
would be for a novice to learn OSG.


--- Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm a newbie too and I disagree. I'm also starting
> from ground-zero and I
> find it very useful and well-written.
>
> The Quick Start Guide assumes that you already know
> the following:
> * OpenGL
> * C++
> * STL
> Without this fundation, it's going to take longer.
>
> We all start from a different place, so writing for
> beginners is always
> tricky ;). Learning a new API is verry frustrating
> sometime but you have to
> stick with it.
>
> Nice job Paul!
>
> - Nick -
>
> >From: "Renan Mendes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:28:39 -0300
> >
> >Yes, I have. And you can hardly say that's a
> tutorial for someone entirely
> >new to OSG. I'm right at the bottom, you know.
> Never dealed with Scene
> >Graphs in my whole life. Thanks for trying to help,
> anyway.
> >
> >Renan M Z Mendes
>
>
> >___
> >osg-users mailing list
> >osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>
>http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>
>
_
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> better look now.
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>
> ___
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> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>
http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>


===
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Nick Prudent]

Paul,

One way to do quick tutorials on the go without spending a lot are YouTube 
Screen Casts. I recently learned a few PHP programming tricks from this 
serie:

>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5egpgAVxQI&mode=related&search=

On the Mac, there are a few free solutions for doing this. I'm not sure for 
PC or Linux. There's no need for a camera, since you are just capturing the 
screen. Then, you can post it on YouTube, which saves you the bandwidth 
distribution cost.

I'm not good enough yet to do those for OSG, but that could be cool ;)

Just an idea.

- Nick -

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Zachary Hilbun]

The lack of documentation is very typical of Open
Source software.  I've looked at other Open Source 3D
packages and they all have similar problems.  Another
problem they all have is limited support for dotNet.

The creators of the different software I have looked
at are typically more interested in adding features
than they are in documentating the features they
already have.  If you are trying to learn it, it's a
real problem because if a feature is not documented it
might as well not exist.  If you are working in a
professional environment then the cost of a commercial
package and learning it could be less than the cost of
your time to learn a free but poorly documented
package.

With respect to OSG specifically I would say the Quick
Start guide is good as far as it goes.  There is much
it does not cover however.  The Reference Manual
doesn't cover everything either, and much of what it
does cover is simply a single sentence that is not
necessarly meaningful.  There are several example apps
but they are not commented.  I don't even know what
some of them are supposed to do after having looked at
them.  Usually I can guess what is going on inside of
them, but because of the lack of comments sometimes I
don't really know why something is being done.

I've written a lot of OpenGL, read the OpenInventor
book, learned other 3D packages, and taken a graduate
course in Computer Graphics.  I still find myself
having to guess at what a particular class or function
is supposed to do or how a particular function is
supposed to be called.  I can imagine how difficult it
would be for a novice to learn OSG.


--- Nick Prudent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm a newbie too and I disagree. I'm also starting
> from ground-zero and I 
> find it very useful and well-written.
> 
> The Quick Start Guide assumes that you already know
> the following:
> * OpenGL
> * C++
> * STL
> Without this fundation, it's going to take longer.
> 
> We all start from a different place, so writing for
> beginners is always 
> tricky ;). Learning a new API is verry frustrating
> sometime but you have to 
> stick with it.
> 
> Nice job Paul!
> 
> - Nick -
> 
> >From: "Renan Mendes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:28:39 -0300
> >
> >Yes, I have. And you can hardly say that's a
> tutorial for someone entirely
> >new to OSG. I'm right at the bottom, you know.
> Never dealed with Scene
> >Graphs in my whole life. Thanks for trying to help,
> anyway.
> >
> >Renan M Z Mendes
> 
> 
> >___
> >osg-users mailing list
> >osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>
>http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
> 
>
_
> Windows Live Hotmail. Even hotter than before. Get a
> better look now. 
> www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA148
> 
> ___
> osg-users mailing list
> osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>
http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
> 


===
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Software Contractor
Dallas, Tx


   

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

Thanks for the compliments, glad the QSG is helpful.

I'm pretty thick-skinned. I didn't really take Renan's post as offensive. I
would, however, like to extract some useful criticism so that I can make
improvements if necessary. Specific change requests are appreciated. For
example, I had a specific request to flesh out the transformation info
further, and I'd like to do that in a future edition.

If Renan really is looking for "Tutorials" as the subject implies, Joe
Sullivan has some excellent ones here:
http://www.nps.navy.mil/cs/sullivan/osgtutorials/

I understand the comment that it'd be nice to create some geometry before
having to learn memory management. I can't really figure out a way to do
that without a) a lot of hand waving, or b) showing code that leaks memory.
So I'm open to suggestions here.

I intend to produce other OSG documentation in the future with Bob Kuehne,
such as an OSG Programming Guide that will be more comprehensive than the
Quick Start Guide. Maybe that will help.
   -Paul


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Nick Prudent
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:21 PM
> To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> 
> I'm a newbie too and I disagree. I'm also starting from 
> ground-zero and I find it very useful and well-written.
> 
> The Quick Start Guide assumes that you already know the following:
> * OpenGL
> * C++
> * STL
> Without this fundation, it's going to take longer.
> 
> We all start from a different place, so writing for beginners 
> is always tricky ;). Learning a new API is verry frustrating 
> sometime but you have to stick with it.
> 
> Nice job Paul!
> 
> - Nick -
> 
> >From: "Renan Mendes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
> >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:28:39 -0300
> >
> >Yes, I have. And you can hardly say that's a tutorial for someone 
> >entirely new to OSG. I'm right at the bottom, you know. Never dealed 
> >with Scene Graphs in my whole life. Thanks for trying to 
> help, anyway.
> >
> >Renan M Z Mendes
> 
> 
> >___
> >osg-users mailing list
> >osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
> >http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-opensc
enegraph.o
> >rg
> 
> _
> Windows Live Hotmail. Even hotter than before. Get a better look now. 
> www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA148
> 
> ___
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negraph.org

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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Nick Prudent]

I'm a newbie too and I disagree. I'm also starting from ground-zero and I 
find it very useful and well-written.

The Quick Start Guide assumes that you already know the following:
* OpenGL
* C++
* STL
Without this fundation, it's going to take longer.

We all start from a different place, so writing for beginners is always 
tricky ;). Learning a new API is verry frustrating sometime but you have to 
stick with it.

Nice job Paul!

- Nick -

>From: "Renan Mendes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org
>Subject: Re: [osg-users] Tutorials
>Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:28:39 -0300
>
>Yes, I have. And you can hardly say that's a tutorial for someone entirely
>new to OSG. I'm right at the bottom, you know. Never dealed with Scene
>Graphs in my whole life. Thanks for trying to help, anyway.
>
>Renan M Z Mendes


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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Renan Mendes]

Hello, Paul.

Yes, I have read that part you mentioned, and it indeed gives the idea of a
scene graph, no trouble there. My complaint, and mind you, that is not only
about your book, is that I couldn't find explanations, not only on how to
render simple objects, but the whole logical process behind it. And that's
not only about knowing the theory of a scene graph. By reading a book on
OSG, my objective is to be able to understand as thorough as possible the
syntax, which I believe is more important than, for instance, memory
management,
which you deal with in your book even before you teach how to create
geometry nodes.

Please, I didn't mean you any harm. Forgive me if I was a bit rude in my
previous message.

Renan M Z Mendes
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Paul Martz]

 

Yes, I have. And you can hardly say that's a tutorial for someone entirely
new to OSG. I'm right at the bottom, you know. Never dealed with Scene
Graphs in my whole life. Thanks for trying to help, anyway. 

My intent with the Quick Start Guide was to design it for people completely
new to scene graphs and OSG. See section 1.5 for example, "Introduction to
scene graphs". The book contains very basic information about building
Geometry nodes, setting state, memory management, etc. The examples are all
trivial in nature. Are you looking for even more basic information? And if
so, what, exactly, are you looking for?
 
Paul Martz
Skew Matrix Software LLC
http://www.skew-matrix.com  
303 859 9466
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Renan Mendes]

Yes, I have. And you can hardly say that's a tutorial for someone entirely
new to OSG. I'm right at the bottom, you know. Never dealed with Scene
Graphs in my whole life. Thanks for trying to help, anyway.

Renan M Z Mendes
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Robert Osfield]

Have you read the Quick Start Guide?

On 8/21/07, Renan Mendes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> It is my very first time using OSG, and also, I'm not really wholly
> familiarised with the scene graph concept (never worked for instance with
> Java3D). I found the reference guide with the listing of all the classes and
> methods indeed very useful, but all the same, they are not very thorough on
> what each methods does exactly. Most of them don't even have any
> documentation whatsoever. For me, it's a little bit difficult just to look
> at the examples and figure out what's happening. Can anyone tell or send me
> something that might be useful? Thanks in advance.
>
> Renan M Z Mendes
>
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Jean-Sébastien Guay]

Hello Peter,

> Robert asked me to put them in the tutorial section, but I don't know how to
> create an account so I can edit it.

See http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Community/WikiLogIn

J-S
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Mike Weiblen]

Also, the OSG Quick Start Guide at http://osgbooks.com/ is targeted for
"real first timers"

cheers
-- mew


On 8/9/07, Renan Mendes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know where can I get a good Tutorial for REAL first timers in
> OSG and Scene Graph Theory?
> Thanks.
>
> Renan M Z Mendes
>
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Re: [osg-users] Tutorials

[Peter Gebauer]

Hello!

I have just such a tutorial. It's in 6 steps:

01-scenegraph.cpp  03-transform.cpp  05-animation.cpp
02-textures.cpp04-models.cpp 06-clipping.cpp

Robert asked me to put them in the tutorial section, but I don't know how to 
create an account so I can edit it.

They are numbered because the tutorial is linear.

At the moment they are a bit in disarray, I haven't quite figured out 
exactly how I want the code to be organized, but I'm including it as an 
attachment to this e-mail so you can check it out anyways.

/Peter


On 2007-08-09 (Thu) 12:08, Renan Mendes wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone know where can I get a good Tutorial for REAL first timers in
> OSG and Scene Graph Theory?
> Thanks.
> 
> Renan M Z Mendes

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