Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-11 Thread Michael Madigan
Not you, Dicardo.


--- Pete Theisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thursday 08 February 2007 2:57 am, Michael
> Madigan wrote:
> > I thought you WERE a TV.
> 
> Hi Michael!
> 
> Really? How, from my web picture?
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Pete
> http://www.pete-theisen.com/
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-11 Thread Pete Theisen
On Thursday 08 February 2007 2:57 am, Michael Madigan wrote:
> I thought you WERE a TV.

Hi Michael!

Really? How, from my web picture?

-- 
Regards,

Pete
http://www.pete-theisen.com/


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-08 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> I thought you WERE a TV.
> 

Now Mike, why would you say that of Pete?

> 
> 
> --- Pete Theisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> On Friday 26 January 2007 10:21 am, Ricardo Aráoz
>> wrote:
>>> Jean Laeremans wrote:
 On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the
>> missing link between ape
> and Pete.
 No need to stoop to their level though
>>> Why not! It's so funny! And they get so
>> disoriented. Beats the TV
>>
>> Hi Ricardo!
>>
>> Faint praise, anything beats TV.
>>
>> -- 
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pete
>> http://www.pete-theisen.com/
>>
>>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-07 Thread Michael Madigan
I thought you WERE a TV.



--- Pete Theisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 26 January 2007 10:21 am, Ricardo Aráoz
> wrote:
> > Jean Laeremans wrote:
> > > On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the
> missing link between ape
> > >> and Pete.
> > >
> > > No need to stoop to their level though
> >
> > Why not! It's so funny! And they get so
> disoriented. Beats the TV
> 
> Hi Ricardo!
> 
> Faint praise, anything beats TV.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Pete
> http://www.pete-theisen.com/
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-07 Thread Pete Theisen
On Friday 26 January 2007 10:21 am, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> Jean Laeremans wrote:
> > On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the missing link between ape
> >> and Pete.
> >
> > No need to stoop to their level though
>
> Why not! It's so funny! And they get so disoriented. Beats the TV

Hi Ricardo!

Faint praise, anything beats TV.

-- 
Regards,

Pete
http://www.pete-theisen.com/


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-07 Thread Pete Theisen
On Friday 26 January 2007 6:57 pm, Jean Laeremans wrote:
> On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the missing link between ape
> > and Pete.
>
> No need to stoop to their level though

Hi Jean!

That you two should be so superior to Mike and I.
-- 
Regards,

Pete
http://www.pete-theisen.com/


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-07 Thread Pete Theisen
On Thursday 25 January 2007 5:50 pm, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:

> Not exactly, the teaching says that the Pope is always right when he
> speaks about dogma (or something like that. Anyone with better info?).

Hi Ricardo!

That's close to it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
-- 
Regards,

Pete
http://www.pete-theisen.com/


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-02-06 Thread Pete Theisen
On Monday 22 January 2007 8:21 pm, Ed Leafe wrote:

>   Recalling my catechism from my childhood, I knew that baptized
> babies who died before the age of 7 were supposed to go straight to
> heaven, as they didn't have the capacity to distinguish right from
> wrong until that age, so they couldn't have sinned. It seemed logical
> at that point that the best solution was to have a kid, get it
> baptized, and then kill it. You might go to hell, but all those
> babies would be enjoying eternal happiness, thanks to you.

Hi Ed!

I can just see you running that past the priests and nuns. What beatings you 
must have suffered for your beliefs.
-- 
Regards,

Pete
http://www.pete-theisen.com/


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Helio W.
Charlie,

I already said: it's a FACT that the Christian bible is a work written by
many different men, (who frequently contradicted themselves), re-told myths
from different cultural traditions, with loose links to historical events
and facts, all build up from another religion (as is always the case
regarding religions), all build from jewish folklore.

It's all made up. I don't believe in those things.


There's an old book, which I recommend it to you,  written by a respectful,
secularist, agnostic person, the very famous Isaac Asimov, called: "Asimov's
Guide to the Bible - The Old and New Testment".

>From the back cover:

" In Asimov's Guide to the Bible, Isaac Asimov explores the historical,
geographical, and biographical aspects of the events described in the Old
and New Testments. Asimov's attempts to illuminate the Bible's many obscure,
mysterious passages prove absorbing reading for anyone interested in
religion and history. "

My edition is from 1981, the book was originally printed as two separate
editions, 1967 and 1969, covering the Old and the New testment,
respectively.

It's neutral. Unlike many other secularist books, Asimov's doesn't attempt
to debunk religious beliefs, he just comments on what was known (at the time
of the writing) about facts, persons and events linked to those depicted on
the bible.

HW



On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 03:40 PM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>
> >Wow, they certainly taught you how NOT TO THINK very well...
>
> No need to be insulting. Maybe I should have been more verbose in my
> question, so I'll restate it.
>
> So you say you reject God for the exact reasons you reject the concept of
> Zeus, Vishnu, etc. In my thinking I don't reject God, so I don't believe I
> follow your reasoning. I could perhaps make some guesses, but it would
> probably be better if you provide your reasons for rejection directly.
>
> Does that make it more clear why I "wasn't thinking" when I posted the
> original question?
>
> -Charlie
>
> >On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yes, I'm a infidel.
> > > >
> > > >I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe
> > in  Zeus,
> > > >Vishnu, Osiris, etc.
> > >
> > > OK. What are those reasons?
> > >
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Jean Laeremans
On 1/27/07, Michael Madigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Your sister said I was hung, I guess that's the same
> thing.

How low can you go ?

A+
jml


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Michael Madigan
Your sister said I was hung, I guess that's the same
thing.


--- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > Stoop? You need a ladder to get to my ankles.
> > 
> 
> So your neighbors finally hanged you by your ankles
> like they did to
> Mussolini?
> 
> > 
> > --- Jean Laeremans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the
> >> missing link between ape
> >>> and Pete.
> >> No need to stoop to their level though
> >>
> >> A+
> >> jml
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> Stoop? You need a ladder to get to my ankles.
> 

So your neighbors finally hanged you by your ankles like they did to
Mussolini?

> 
> --- Jean Laeremans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the
>> missing link between ape
>>> and Pete.
>> No need to stoop to their level though
>>
>> A+
>> jml
>>
>>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Jean Laeremans wrote:
> On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the missing link between ape
>> and Pete.
> 
> No need to stoop to their level though
> 

Why not! It's so funny! And they get so disoriented. Beats the TV

> A+
> jml
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Michael Madigan
Stoop? You need a ladder to get to my ankles.


--- Jean Laeremans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the
> missing link between ape
> > and Pete.
> 
> No need to stoop to their level though
> 
> A+
> jml
> 
> 
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> too stupid to see the obvious.
> 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 03:40 PM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
> 
>> Wow, they certainly taught you how NOT TO THINK very well...
> 
> No need to be insulting. Maybe I should have been more verbose in my 
> question, so I'll restate it.
> 
> So you say you reject God for the exact reasons you reject the concept of 
> Zeus, Vishnu, etc. In my thinking I don't reject God, so I don't believe I 
> follow your reasoning. I could perhaps make some guesses, but it would 
> probably be better if you provide your reasons for rejection directly.
> 

I think you are right Charlie. God is not necessary for a scientific
explanation of existance. But that does not mean he does not exist.
Believing or not in a superior being is clearly a decision. What I
always question is the naivety of some beliefs.


> Does that make it more clear why I "wasn't thinking" when I posted the 
> original question?
> 
> -Charlie
> 
>> On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 Yes, I'm a infidel.

 I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe 
>> in  Zeus,
 Vishnu, Osiris, etc.
>>> OK. What are those reasons?
>>>
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Jean Laeremans
On 1/26/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the missing link between ape
> and Pete.

No need to stoop to their level though

A+
jml


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Jean Laeremans wrote:
> On 1/26/07, Michael Madigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Well if Creationism is ludicrous, where's the missing
>> link between ape and man?
>>
> Had a look in the mirror lately ?

Hahahaha! Good one! But you're wrong, he's the missing link between ape
and Pete.

> A+
> jml
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 03:12 PM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>> Charlie,
>>
>> What are you coming up next? That evolution has already been debunked too?
>>
>> I hear all the time religious people claiming that there're plenty of
>> "scientific" evidence pointing to criationism and that simply is not true.
>> Criationism is a ludicrous lie.
> 
> I'm not really opposed to evolutionary theory. I think it's quite possible 
> that's it was the mechanism God used to bring us about. The problem I have 
> with evolution is in a couple areas: first, the most appropriate and best 
> study for the proof of evolution should be a "historical" science,

I think not. Historical refers to documented things, there is no history
possible there. You must be referring to Archaeological science. And I
think they also agree.

> not a 
> "biological" science. Correct? Yet most historical evidence is ignored by 
> evolutionary theorists in favor of trying to explain things in terms of 
> what "might" be able to happen biologically. Next, even moving into the 
> "biological" investigations, the problems with probability are ignored.

What is 'evolution' but the name we give to the action of probability
over genes along millions of years?

> In 
> other words, as I recall, the mathematical probability that humans would 
> result from the process of evolution is so minute that it is reasonably 
> impossible.

If the total probability field is composed of other beings with the same
order of probability of existing than humans that is not so
unreasonable. Besides probability is probability, everyday a number
which had a million chances against it wins the lottery. Someone WILL
win, it just happened it was us.


> But that is generally ignored as well by most evolution theory 
> supporters (but I think some of the evolutionists do acknowledge the 
> problem, and they generally address it by saying the Earth was seeded by 
> aliens).

Oh! C'mon!!! You've been talking to Mike too long.



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 08:07 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> ...
>>> For even more fun, do you deny that God could limit Himself if He so 
>> chose?
>>> In other words, if He made a Covenant with humans, do you think He would
>>> stick to it?
>>>
>> If he is really omnipotent, and always tells the truth (though that
>> would be a limitation to his omnipotence), then I think he would never
>> have the desire to do that as that would put limits to him and hence
>> he'd no longer be omnipotent (that supposing he is limited by logic, if
>> he is not then I can say nothing about him, nor can you. That is what
>> some religions state, that you can say nothing about god). Once you
>> start playing with concepts like Omnipotence, eternity, etc. you get
>> into contradictions very easily.
> ...
> 
> Yep. Concepts of 'infinity' are beyond our really comprehension. So we end 
> up having a language problem trying to explain and understand these things. 
> And that's one of the reasons some people have given up in believing in God 
> at all. Something that can't fit into their logic/terms simply doesn't 
> exist to them.
> 
> So, anyway, in regards to these issues, I defer to what Christ taught as 
> opposed to trying to make a syntactically perfect lexical argument. Of 
> course, if you don't believe in Christ, you wouldn't put any weight into 
> what He taught.

You misjudge me. If the teachings are sound I don't care if they come
from a talking frog.

> So, at this point (I'm assuming you don't believe in 
> Christ), you and I are at an impasse to take this discussion any further. 
> But I think we've explained our respective sides clearly enough.
> 
> I hope I've provided some useful information and I thank you for providing 
> yours.
> 

Yes, it was a nice chat.

> -Charlie
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Michael Madigan
God I'm good looking!

But answer my question Frenchy.


--- Jean Laeremans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On 1/26/07, Michael Madigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Well if Creationism is ludicrous, where's the
> missing
> > link between ape and man?
> >
> Had a look in the mirror lately ?
> A+
> jml
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> Well if Creationism is ludicrous, where's the missing
> link between ape and man?
> 

I can see I shamed you enough so you won't be laying your finger over
language mistakes. Good!

> I happen to believe in evolution and don't find it
> troubling at all.  I believe Adam and Eve were a
> parable, as well as Noah and the Ark.  This doesn't
> disprove God in any way for me.
> 

Completely agree. What's more, maybe Jesus is also a parable. And the
devil, and hell and heaven, and apocalypse, and judgment day, and
yes! Maybe god is also a parable. I mean, if you get to decide Adam and
Eve were a parable, then I get to decide what is a parable too. Unless
you are the pope of your church.


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Michael Madigan
Pretty interesting how that folklore held on for 2000+
years.  Pretty powerful folklore.



--- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Charlie,
> 
> The Bible is a piece of FOLKLORE, written by HUMANS.
> 
> Jesus' life, as told by the gospels, have an uncanny
> similarity with
> folklore tales from other cultural traditions.
> 
> It's pretty clear it's all made up.
> 
> HW
> 
> 
> On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > OK. I'm not "directly" trying to call them "liars"
> or anything like that.
> > What I am saying is that I do believe there is a
> spiritual "Truth" that
> > exists. I believe Christianity is the most
> accurate interpretation of that
> > Truth. Others disagree and claim their religion is
> the accurate
> > interpretation. Eventually, some will be right and
> others wrong.
> >
> > >Yes, I'm a infidel.
> > >
> > >I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons
> I don't believe in
> > Zeus,
> > >Vishnu, Osiris, etc.
> >
> > OK. What are those reasons?
> >
> >
> 
> 
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> 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> Jesus is a prophet in Islam.
> Jesus is the Messiah in Christianity
> 
> To say that Jesus never existed is silly.
> 

Wow! How can we ever dare to compare Charlie's lame and short
explanations with this example of clarity, of sound argumentation, of
intellectual wisdom? Suddenly everything was so clear to me. Of course!
Why didn't Charlie explain it so thoroughly? We should team up, buy you
a ticket to Iran and send you there. I'm certain you'll be able to
explain and convince all Mohammedans out of their evil ways. We'll have
millions of converts in a few months!

> 
> 
> --- Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> At 03:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>>> Charlie,
>>>
>>> Watch: http://www.thegodmovie.com
>>>
>>> Then think.
>> I viewed the trailer. It appears it's a movie that
>> claims Jesus never existed.
>>
>> This attack on Christianity is not new. It has been
>> introduced, debunked, 
>> re-introduced, re-debunked many times in the past
>> 200 or so years (starting 
>> in the late 1700's).
>>
>> You may find it interesting to note that the premise
>> that Jesus never 
>> existed is not introduced by historical scholars.
>> Usually philosopher's, 
>> atheists, anti-Christian groups, etc, are the ones
>> that like to broach this 
>> topic. I think the reason this is the case is that
>> there is just way too 
>> much historical evidence that supports Jesus
>> Christ's life on Earth. As far 
>> as I know, there are no accepted scholarly claims
>> that Jesus did not exist.
>>
>> Of course, beyond his existence, the arguments
>> immediately start in about 
>> whether or not he actually did miraculous things,
>> what he actually said, 
>> etc. That's where scholars will start to disagree;
>> but they disagree 
>> primarily because they can't agree on initial
>> premises. E.g. some scholars 
>> flat out refuse to believe any type of 'miracle' can
>> ever occur. So, solely 
>> because of that supposition, they refuse to believe
>> most of the recorded 
>> events in Christ's life. To me that sounds pretty
>> silly and intellectually 
>> dishonest. It would seem better to just evaluate
>> things based on what was 
>> written and the context it was written within.
>> Anyway... I'm digressing
>>
>> I've been through many studies of Biblical, and
>> Christian, criticism; the 
>> comparisons of Christian teachings to
>> Greek/Babalonian/Sumerian mythology; 
>> the comparisons of religions; historical research
>> and Biblical 
>> authenticity; and so on. So when movies like the
>> above come out, I don't 
>> find them very interesting (unless they purport to
>> have discovered 
>> something 'new' - which this one does not as far as
>> I can tell). And so I 
>> just file them under the "Da Vinci Code" category of
>> fiction or "Christian 
>> attack" pieces.
>>
>> Hmmm That sounded pretty arrogant. I was going
>> to go back and delete 
>> part of that last paragraph, but I decided to leave
>> it. I don't mean to 
>> sound arrogant, but I don't want to give the
>> impression that I'm discarding 
>> opposing views flippantly.
>>
>> -Charlie
>>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 07:57 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> ...
 Hey! Didn't you say we have no control whatsoever over 'god's grace'?
 So if there's nothing you can do to get it, then there's nothing you can
 do to refuse it. Or do you question god's omnipotence?
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I don't recall saying that. I've been saying things like we can't save
>>> ourselves only God's grace can do that. Is that clearer?
>> Then it follows that also God's grace can save us, no matter what, god
>> has that power. Or do you deny god's power?
> 
> Nope. I don't deny it. I just think God has told us that He is not going to 
> do that. I think my other posts have already clarified this.
> 

Please, where in the bible does he say that?

> 
>>> God gave us free will. So we make choices all the time. The most critical
>>> choice, IMO, is whether or not to accept that we cannot obtain our own
>>> salvation. E.g. we can't work it off, we can't buy it off, we can't
>>> "intellectualize" it, etc. We have to accept God's grace, personally.
>>>
>>> So I don't deny God's Omnipotence, but I do think He uses it where He
>>> wants. So maybe He will bring all souls to Him in the end, I don't know.
>>> All I know is His words while He was here on Earth say that is not how 
>> it's
>>> going to be.
>> Well now you blew it man. He didn't speak, Jesus did all the talking and
>> claimed that it was his "father's" way.
> 
> Well, it's my understanding that Christian belief is that Christ is God. So 
> whatever He spoke, taught, etc was what God wanted us to hear.
> 

I thought he was the 'son' of god. He kept talking about 'my father'.
Maybe he was like some football (soccer) players around here who always
talk about themselves in the third person.




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 07:47 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
>>> You are a Christian based on what is in your heart. If you go to a
>>> Christian Church every Sunday, donate a lot to charity, help the poor, and
>>> offer kindness to strangers, by all outward appearances you are a
>>> Christian. However, if while you're doing all that, you are bitter in your
> ...
> 
>> Fair enough, there is a buddhist saying that a rose will give you its
>> perfume without meaning to be good. I like to interpret it as that it is
>> it's nature, that if you are 'good' then you'll have no choice but to do
>> 'good' (and vice versa).
>> Now, according to your beliefs, does a 'christian' have to believe in
>> exactly the same god you do, in exactly the same manner (e.g. let's say
>> you don't believe in angels and he does. Or he believes in everything
>> except that Mary was a virgin)? What latitude does he have? If he
>> accepts god in his heart and he accepts god in his heart and 'knows that
>> the grace of god alone is what can save him', is he a christian?
> ...
> 
> Well, based on past messages I apparently haven't been able to communicate 
> my points very well. But I'll give it a try...
> 
> I think the key core of being a Christian is realizing that you can't save 
> yourself, believing God came to Earth as Jesus Christ, believing He died on 
> the cross for our sins, believing He rose from the dead, and believing you 
> can ask Him into your heart to accept God's gift of salvation.
> 
> I think that's the key things. I think the other beliefs come as a person 
> grows in maturity as a Christian. That doesn't mean they'll necessarily 
> agree on all things with me; as I've said before, I may have incorrect 
> interpretations. But, so far, what I've been posting is where I am in my 
> faith now.
> 

So if someone believes in everything else, god, angels, hell, heaven,
can't save yourself, etc. But he doesn't believe that this guy Jesus
rose from the dead then he isn't christian. Is that what you're saying?




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Jean Laeremans
On 1/26/07, Michael Madigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well if Creationism is ludicrous, where's the missing
> link between ape and man?
>
Had a look in the mirror lately ?
A+
jml


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Helio W.
Charlie,

The very likely probability of Jesus' life being (mostly) a work of fiction
has been refuted many times, I know. But usually it has been refuted in the
same way as evolutionism has been refuted, usually with silly and
non-scientific arguments.

For example, you're claiming that scientists address evolutionism gaps by
saying alien seeded planet Earth. That is RIDICULOUS. There are scientists
that speculate about it, perhaps some even believe on the possibility, but
those ideas are very far from being accepted as sound scientific theories.
Probably never will. You're putting, as usual, something in scientists'
mouth as to easily refute it. Religious people do that all the time. It's
pure intellectual dishonesty.

It's easy to rebuke lies using another lies.

Look, you are stuck in believing things written BY MEN centuries ago, as if
they are unquestionable truths. A fairy tale who explains everything with
ludicruous ideas.

Do you realise you're using ideas written by tribesmen hundreds of years ago
as a way to guide your life? And at the same time find that other people who
believe in other ancient tribesmen ideas are wrong?

Get a clue!



On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 03:12 PM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
> >Charlie,
> >
> >What are you coming up next? That evolution has already been debunked
> too?
> >
> >I hear all the time religious people claiming that there're plenty of
> >"scientific" evidence pointing to criationism and that simply is not
> true.
> >Criationism is a ludicrous lie.
>
> I'm not really opposed to evolutionary theory. I think it's quite possible
> that's it was the mechanism God used to bring us about. The problem I have
> with evolution is in a couple areas: first, the most appropriate and best
> study for the proof of evolution should be a "historical" science, not a
> "biological" science. Correct? Yet most historical evidence is ignored by
> evolutionary theorists in favor of trying to explain things in terms of
> what "might" be able to happen biologically. Next, even moving into the
> "biological" investigations, the problems with probability are ignored. In
> other words, as I recall, the mathematical probability that humans would
> result from the process of evolution is so minute that it is reasonably
> impossible. But that is generally ignored as well by most evolution theory
> supporters (but I think some of the evolutionists do acknowledge the
> problem, and they generally address it by saying the Earth was seeded by
> aliens). These weaknesses of evolutionary theory should be clearly
> presented along with the theory itself, but instead it seems only the
> "dogmatic" portions of the theory are put forth in classrooms.
>
>
> >I've watched the documentary "The God Who Wasn't there". There was no
> need
> >for the movie to convince me, because I pretty much already knew what was
> in
> >there.
> >
> >I watched "Da Vinci Code" and found it very silly. You don't need to tell
> me
> >it was a hollywood movie based on a "best-seller" fiction book.
> >
> >But the "The God Who Wasn't there" is not fiction. It isn't even
> >controversial, as it just shows information available elsewhere.
> >
> >Before discarding the documentary, watch it first. Or are you scared on
> >having to THINK FOR YOURSELF and find the truth?
>
> I thought I explained why I didn't watch it. From what I can tell, like
> you
> said, they don't present anything new. The claim that Jesus didn't exist
> has been put forth in the past and has been refuted (repeatedly). Why
> would
> I spend money to watch something I already know is incorrect?
>
> By the way, the reason I sort of lumped it in with "The Da Vinci Code" was
> because the author of that book/movie stated he researched it as if it
> were
> a documentary. When interviewed he was asked what would he change to make
> the movie a documentary and he basically said he wouldn't change anything.
> So he was trying to present his "research" as sound. Just like what I'm
> sure this movie has done as well. I haven't seen, nor will I pay for,
> watching the Da Vinci Code movie. I won't pay to watch this one either. If
> it comes out on cable or something like that, I'll probably watch it. In
> general it's good to know what your enemies are thinking. :-)
>
> -Charlie
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Helio W.
Charlie,

The Bible is a piece of FOLKLORE, written by HUMANS.

Jesus' life, as told by the gospels, have an uncanny similarity with
folklore tales from other cultural traditions.

It's pretty clear it's all made up.

HW


On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> OK. I'm not "directly" trying to call them "liars" or anything like that.
> What I am saying is that I do believe there is a spiritual "Truth" that
> exists. I believe Christianity is the most accurate interpretation of that
> Truth. Others disagree and claim their religion is the accurate
> interpretation. Eventually, some will be right and others wrong.
>
> >Yes, I'm a infidel.
> >
> >I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe in
> Zeus,
> >Vishnu, Osiris, etc.
>
> OK. What are those reasons?
>
>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 03:12 PM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>Charlie,
>
>What are you coming up next? That evolution has already been debunked too?
>
>I hear all the time religious people claiming that there're plenty of
>"scientific" evidence pointing to criationism and that simply is not true.
>Criationism is a ludicrous lie.

I'm not really opposed to evolutionary theory. I think it's quite possible 
that's it was the mechanism God used to bring us about. The problem I have 
with evolution is in a couple areas: first, the most appropriate and best 
study for the proof of evolution should be a "historical" science, not a 
"biological" science. Correct? Yet most historical evidence is ignored by 
evolutionary theorists in favor of trying to explain things in terms of 
what "might" be able to happen biologically. Next, even moving into the 
"biological" investigations, the problems with probability are ignored. In 
other words, as I recall, the mathematical probability that humans would 
result from the process of evolution is so minute that it is reasonably 
impossible. But that is generally ignored as well by most evolution theory 
supporters (but I think some of the evolutionists do acknowledge the 
problem, and they generally address it by saying the Earth was seeded by 
aliens). These weaknesses of evolutionary theory should be clearly 
presented along with the theory itself, but instead it seems only the 
"dogmatic" portions of the theory are put forth in classrooms.


>I've watched the documentary "The God Who Wasn't there". There was no need
>for the movie to convince me, because I pretty much already knew what was in
>there.
>
>I watched "Da Vinci Code" and found it very silly. You don't need to tell me
>it was a hollywood movie based on a "best-seller" fiction book.
>
>But the "The God Who Wasn't there" is not fiction. It isn't even
>controversial, as it just shows information available elsewhere.
>
>Before discarding the documentary, watch it first. Or are you scared on
>having to THINK FOR YOURSELF and find the truth?

I thought I explained why I didn't watch it. From what I can tell, like you 
said, they don't present anything new. The claim that Jesus didn't exist 
has been put forth in the past and has been refuted (repeatedly). Why would 
I spend money to watch something I already know is incorrect?

By the way, the reason I sort of lumped it in with "The Da Vinci Code" was 
because the author of that book/movie stated he researched it as if it were 
a documentary. When interviewed he was asked what would he change to make 
the movie a documentary and he basically said he wouldn't change anything. 
So he was trying to present his "research" as sound. Just like what I'm 
sure this movie has done as well. I haven't seen, nor will I pay for, 
watching the Da Vinci Code movie. I won't pay to watch this one either. If 
it comes out on cable or something like that, I'll probably watch it. In 
general it's good to know what your enemies are thinking. :-)

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 03:40 PM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:

>Wow, they certainly taught you how NOT TO THINK very well...

No need to be insulting. Maybe I should have been more verbose in my 
question, so I'll restate it.

So you say you reject God for the exact reasons you reject the concept of 
Zeus, Vishnu, etc. In my thinking I don't reject God, so I don't believe I 
follow your reasoning. I could perhaps make some guesses, but it would 
probably be better if you provide your reasons for rejection directly.

Does that make it more clear why I "wasn't thinking" when I posted the 
original question?

-Charlie

>On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, I'm a infidel.
> > >
> > >I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe 
> in  Zeus,
> > >Vishnu, Osiris, etc.
> >
> > OK. What are those reasons?
> >



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Helio W.
Wow, they certainly taught you how NOT TO THINK very well...

On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Yes, I'm a infidel.
> >
> >I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe in
> Zeus,
> >Vishnu, Osiris, etc.
>
> OK. What are those reasons?
>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 02:57 AM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:

>" I believe God is real, and the Christian religion is "right", based on
>faith, what I've researched, and what He's done in my life. "
>
>Billions of Muslims and Hindus (among others) can say exactly the same
>thing. Your God is no more real than theirs because of your "arguments".

OK. I'm not "directly" trying to call them "liars" or anything like that. 
What I am saying is that I do believe there is a spiritual "Truth" that 
exists. I believe Christianity is the most accurate interpretation of that 
Truth. Others disagree and claim their religion is the accurate 
interpretation. Eventually, some will be right and others wrong.

>Yes, I'm a infidel.
>
>I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe in Zeus,
>Vishnu, Osiris, etc.

OK. What are those reasons?


>I'll bring something that Richard Dawkins said: You're an atheist too,
>Charlie. Didn't you know it? You're an atheist regarding all deities from
>other religions. You just need to go one God further.

OK. That's fine. You can call me an atheist if you want, just make sure you 
also know I'm a Christian as well.

:-)

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 08:07 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
...
> > For even more fun, do you deny that God could limit Himself if He so 
> chose?
> > In other words, if He made a Covenant with humans, do you think He would
> > stick to it?
> >
>
>If he is really omnipotent, and always tells the truth (though that
>would be a limitation to his omnipotence), then I think he would never
>have the desire to do that as that would put limits to him and hence
>he'd no longer be omnipotent (that supposing he is limited by logic, if
>he is not then I can say nothing about him, nor can you. That is what
>some religions state, that you can say nothing about god). Once you
>start playing with concepts like Omnipotence, eternity, etc. you get
>into contradictions very easily.
...

Yep. Concepts of 'infinity' are beyond our really comprehension. So we end 
up having a language problem trying to explain and understand these things. 
And that's one of the reasons some people have given up in believing in God 
at all. Something that can't fit into their logic/terms simply doesn't 
exist to them.

So, anyway, in regards to these issues, I defer to what Christ taught as 
opposed to trying to make a syntactically perfect lexical argument. Of 
course, if you don't believe in Christ, you wouldn't put any weight into 
what He taught. So, at this point (I'm assuming you don't believe in 
Christ), you and I are at an impasse to take this discussion any further. 
But I think we've explained our respective sides clearly enough.

I hope I've provided some useful information and I thank you for providing 
yours.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Michael Madigan
Well if Creationism is ludicrous, where's the missing
link between ape and man?

I happen to believe in evolution and don't find it
troubling at all.  I believe Adam and Eve were a
parable, as well as Noah and the Ark.  This doesn't
disprove God in any way for me.



--- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Charlie,
> 
> What are you coming up next? That evolution has
> already been debunked too?
> 
> I hear all the time religious people claiming that
> there're plenty of
> "scientific" evidence pointing to criationism and
> that simply is not true.
> Criationism is a ludicrous lie.
> 
> I've watched the documentary "The God Who Wasn't
> there". There was no need
> for the movie to convince me, because I pretty much
> already knew what was in
> there.
> 
> I watched "Da Vinci Code" and found it very silly.
> You don't need to tell me
> it was a hollywood movie based on a "best-seller"
> fiction book.
> 
> But the "The God Who Wasn't there" is not fiction.
> It isn't even
> controversial, as it just shows information
> available elsewhere.
> 
> Before discarding the documentary, watch it first.
> Or are you scared on
> having to THINK FOR YOURSELF and find the truth?
> 
> HW
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > At 03:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
> > >Charlie,
> > >
> > >Watch: http://www.thegodmovie.com
> > >
> > >Then think.
> >
> > I viewed the trailer. It appears it's a movie that
> claims Jesus never
> > existed.
> >
> > This attack on Christianity is not new. It has
> been introduced, debunked,
> > re-introduced, re-debunked many times in the past
> 200 or so years
> > (starting
> > in the late 1700's).
> >
> > You may find it interesting to note that the
> premise that Jesus never
> > existed is not introduced by historical scholars.
> Usually philosopher's,
> > atheists, anti-Christian groups, etc, are the ones
> that like to broach
> > this
> > topic. I think the reason this is the case is that
> there is just way too
> > much historical evidence that supports Jesus
> Christ's life on Earth. As
> > far
> > as I know, there are no accepted scholarly claims
> that Jesus did not
> > exist.
> >
> > Of course, beyond his existence, the arguments
> immediately start in about
> > whether or not he actually did miraculous things,
> what he actually said,
> > etc. That's where scholars will start to disagree;
> but they disagree
> > primarily because they can't agree on initial
> premises. E.g. some scholars
> > flat out refuse to believe any type of 'miracle'
> can ever occur. So,
> > solely
> > because of that supposition, they refuse to
> believe most of the recorded
> > events in Christ's life. To me that sounds pretty
> silly and intellectually
> > dishonest. It would seem better to just evaluate
> things based on what was
> > written and the context it was written within.
> Anyway... I'm
> > digressing
> >
> > I've been through many studies of Biblical, and
> Christian, criticism; the
> > comparisons of Christian teachings to
> Greek/Babalonian/Sumerian mythology;
> > the comparisons of religions; historical research
> and Biblical
> > authenticity; and so on. So when movies like the
> above come out, I don't
> > find them very interesting (unless they purport to
> have discovered
> > something 'new' - which this one does not as far
> as I can tell). And so I
> > just file them under the "Da Vinci Code" category
> of fiction or "Christian
> > attack" pieces.
> >
> > Hmmm That sounded pretty arrogant. I was going
> to go back and delete
> > part of that last paragraph, but I decided to
> leave it. I don't mean to
> > sound arrogant, but I don't want to give the
> impression that I'm
> > discarding
> > opposing views flippantly.
> >
> > -Charlie
> >
> >
> >
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 07:57 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
...
> >> Hey! Didn't you say we have no control whatsoever over 'god's grace'?
> >> So if there's nothing you can do to get it, then there's nothing you can
> >> do to refuse it. Or do you question god's omnipotence?
> > ...
> >
> > I don't recall saying that. I've been saying things like we can't save
> > ourselves only God's grace can do that. Is that clearer?
>
>Then it follows that also God's grace can save us, no matter what, god
>has that power. Or do you deny god's power?

Nope. I don't deny it. I just think God has told us that He is not going to 
do that. I think my other posts have already clarified this.


> > God gave us free will. So we make choices all the time. The most critical
> > choice, IMO, is whether or not to accept that we cannot obtain our own
> > salvation. E.g. we can't work it off, we can't buy it off, we can't
> > "intellectualize" it, etc. We have to accept God's grace, personally.
> >
> > So I don't deny God's Omnipotence, but I do think He uses it where He
> > wants. So maybe He will bring all souls to Him in the end, I don't know.
> > All I know is His words while He was here on Earth say that is not how 
> it's
> > going to be.
>
>Well now you blew it man. He didn't speak, Jesus did all the talking and
>claimed that it was his "father's" way.

Well, it's my understanding that Christian belief is that Christ is God. So 
whatever He spoke, taught, etc was what God wanted us to hear.

So, if by all your postings you're basically trying to say that God is not 
limited by what the Bible teaches, OK. Just say so. My response is my 
Christian faith tells me God told mankind what He has done and is planning 
to do via the Bible. I don't look at that as God now suddenly being "weak" 
and non-omnipotent.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Michael Madigan
Jesus is a prophet in Islam.
Jesus is the Messiah in Christianity

To say that Jesus never existed is silly.



--- Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 03:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
> >Charlie,
> >
> >Watch: http://www.thegodmovie.com
> >
> >Then think.
> 
> I viewed the trailer. It appears it's a movie that
> claims Jesus never existed.
> 
> This attack on Christianity is not new. It has been
> introduced, debunked, 
> re-introduced, re-debunked many times in the past
> 200 or so years (starting 
> in the late 1700's).
> 
> You may find it interesting to note that the premise
> that Jesus never 
> existed is not introduced by historical scholars.
> Usually philosopher's, 
> atheists, anti-Christian groups, etc, are the ones
> that like to broach this 
> topic. I think the reason this is the case is that
> there is just way too 
> much historical evidence that supports Jesus
> Christ's life on Earth. As far 
> as I know, there are no accepted scholarly claims
> that Jesus did not exist.
> 
> Of course, beyond his existence, the arguments
> immediately start in about 
> whether or not he actually did miraculous things,
> what he actually said, 
> etc. That's where scholars will start to disagree;
> but they disagree 
> primarily because they can't agree on initial
> premises. E.g. some scholars 
> flat out refuse to believe any type of 'miracle' can
> ever occur. So, solely 
> because of that supposition, they refuse to believe
> most of the recorded 
> events in Christ's life. To me that sounds pretty
> silly and intellectually 
> dishonest. It would seem better to just evaluate
> things based on what was 
> written and the context it was written within.
> Anyway... I'm digressing
> 
> I've been through many studies of Biblical, and
> Christian, criticism; the 
> comparisons of Christian teachings to
> Greek/Babalonian/Sumerian mythology; 
> the comparisons of religions; historical research
> and Biblical 
> authenticity; and so on. So when movies like the
> above come out, I don't 
> find them very interesting (unless they purport to
> have discovered 
> something 'new' - which this one does not as far as
> I can tell). And so I 
> just file them under the "Da Vinci Code" category of
> fiction or "Christian 
> attack" pieces.
> 
> Hmmm That sounded pretty arrogant. I was going
> to go back and delete 
> part of that last paragraph, but I decided to leave
> it. I don't mean to 
> sound arrogant, but I don't want to give the
> impression that I'm discarding 
> opposing views flippantly.
> 
> -Charlie
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> are the opinions of the author, and do not
> constitute legal or medical advice. This statement
> is added to the messages for those lawyers who are
> too stupid to see the obvious.
> 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Helio W.
Charlie,

What are you coming up next? That evolution has already been debunked too?

I hear all the time religious people claiming that there're plenty of
"scientific" evidence pointing to criationism and that simply is not true.
Criationism is a ludicrous lie.

I've watched the documentary "The God Who Wasn't there". There was no need
for the movie to convince me, because I pretty much already knew what was in
there.

I watched "Da Vinci Code" and found it very silly. You don't need to tell me
it was a hollywood movie based on a "best-seller" fiction book.

But the "The God Who Wasn't there" is not fiction. It isn't even
controversial, as it just shows information available elsewhere.

Before discarding the documentary, watch it first. Or are you scared on
having to THINK FOR YOURSELF and find the truth?

HW



On 1/26/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 03:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
> >Charlie,
> >
> >Watch: http://www.thegodmovie.com
> >
> >Then think.
>
> I viewed the trailer. It appears it's a movie that claims Jesus never
> existed.
>
> This attack on Christianity is not new. It has been introduced, debunked,
> re-introduced, re-debunked many times in the past 200 or so years
> (starting
> in the late 1700's).
>
> You may find it interesting to note that the premise that Jesus never
> existed is not introduced by historical scholars. Usually philosopher's,
> atheists, anti-Christian groups, etc, are the ones that like to broach
> this
> topic. I think the reason this is the case is that there is just way too
> much historical evidence that supports Jesus Christ's life on Earth. As
> far
> as I know, there are no accepted scholarly claims that Jesus did not
> exist.
>
> Of course, beyond his existence, the arguments immediately start in about
> whether or not he actually did miraculous things, what he actually said,
> etc. That's where scholars will start to disagree; but they disagree
> primarily because they can't agree on initial premises. E.g. some scholars
> flat out refuse to believe any type of 'miracle' can ever occur. So,
> solely
> because of that supposition, they refuse to believe most of the recorded
> events in Christ's life. To me that sounds pretty silly and intellectually
> dishonest. It would seem better to just evaluate things based on what was
> written and the context it was written within. Anyway... I'm
> digressing
>
> I've been through many studies of Biblical, and Christian, criticism; the
> comparisons of Christian teachings to Greek/Babalonian/Sumerian mythology;
> the comparisons of religions; historical research and Biblical
> authenticity; and so on. So when movies like the above come out, I don't
> find them very interesting (unless they purport to have discovered
> something 'new' - which this one does not as far as I can tell). And so I
> just file them under the "Da Vinci Code" category of fiction or "Christian
> attack" pieces.
>
> Hmmm That sounded pretty arrogant. I was going to go back and delete
> part of that last paragraph, but I decided to leave it. I don't mean to
> sound arrogant, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm
> discarding
> opposing views flippantly.
>
> -Charlie
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 07:53 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:

> > I don't know. During this discussion I imagined how I would feel if my
> > children were killed. Either by some tragedy or by another person. All I
> > can say is that I'd be grief-stricken. Maybe because I'll miss them in the
> > few years I have remaining here on Earth
>
>C'mon, you won't miss them the same way as if, say, they'd gone to live
>abroad and you'll never see them again.
>And if you don't feel that way then it means that your emotions (that
>expression of your soul) don't run together with what you claim is your
>faith. Ergo your faith is only superficial, it does not encompass the
>whole of your soul.

I don't think you've thought it through if you believe "children moving 
abroad" would be the same feeling as them suddenly dying or being killed. I 
would feel sorrow in both cases, but the latter would be much, much more 
severe.

Now, if you're saying a Christian can never grieve, I don't think you're in 
agreement with Biblical scripture and Christ's teachings.

Also, are you suggesting that once you're a Christian you're suddenly 
perfect? That every thing you do, feel, and say is going to be perfectly 
what God would have you do? I'm pretty sure you realize that is not what 
Christianity teaches either.

And if you're calling me a bad Christian, that's OK. I agree with that (to 
some degree at least). I'm definitely not a perfect Christian. But if 
you're calling me a hypocrite, then I'll disagree with you. But then I have 
the advantage of knowing what's in my heart. Anyway, I definitely feel 
grief when friends and family die. I definitely still fail and sin at 
times. But even at my lowest moments, I know my salvation rests with Christ 
and just meditating on that for a while never fails to bring me joy and peace.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 03:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>Charlie,
>
>Watch: http://www.thegodmovie.com
>
>Then think.

I viewed the trailer. It appears it's a movie that claims Jesus never existed.

This attack on Christianity is not new. It has been introduced, debunked, 
re-introduced, re-debunked many times in the past 200 or so years (starting 
in the late 1700's).

You may find it interesting to note that the premise that Jesus never 
existed is not introduced by historical scholars. Usually philosopher's, 
atheists, anti-Christian groups, etc, are the ones that like to broach this 
topic. I think the reason this is the case is that there is just way too 
much historical evidence that supports Jesus Christ's life on Earth. As far 
as I know, there are no accepted scholarly claims that Jesus did not exist.

Of course, beyond his existence, the arguments immediately start in about 
whether or not he actually did miraculous things, what he actually said, 
etc. That's where scholars will start to disagree; but they disagree 
primarily because they can't agree on initial premises. E.g. some scholars 
flat out refuse to believe any type of 'miracle' can ever occur. So, solely 
because of that supposition, they refuse to believe most of the recorded 
events in Christ's life. To me that sounds pretty silly and intellectually 
dishonest. It would seem better to just evaluate things based on what was 
written and the context it was written within. Anyway... I'm digressing

I've been through many studies of Biblical, and Christian, criticism; the 
comparisons of Christian teachings to Greek/Babalonian/Sumerian mythology; 
the comparisons of religions; historical research and Biblical 
authenticity; and so on. So when movies like the above come out, I don't 
find them very interesting (unless they purport to have discovered 
something 'new' - which this one does not as far as I can tell). And so I 
just file them under the "Da Vinci Code" category of fiction or "Christian 
attack" pieces.

Hmmm That sounded pretty arrogant. I was going to go back and delete 
part of that last paragraph, but I decided to leave it. I don't mean to 
sound arrogant, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm discarding 
opposing views flippantly.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-26 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 07:47 PM 1/25/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> > You are a Christian based on what is in your heart. If you go to a
> > Christian Church every Sunday, donate a lot to charity, help the poor, and
> > offer kindness to strangers, by all outward appearances you are a
> > Christian. However, if while you're doing all that, you are bitter in your
...

>Fair enough, there is a buddhist saying that a rose will give you its
>perfume without meaning to be good. I like to interpret it as that it is
>it's nature, that if you are 'good' then you'll have no choice but to do
>'good' (and vice versa).
>Now, according to your beliefs, does a 'christian' have to believe in
>exactly the same god you do, in exactly the same manner (e.g. let's say
>you don't believe in angels and he does. Or he believes in everything
>except that Mary was a virgin)? What latitude does he have? If he
>accepts god in his heart and he accepts god in his heart and 'knows that
>the grace of god alone is what can save him', is he a christian?
...

Well, based on past messages I apparently haven't been able to communicate 
my points very well. But I'll give it a try...

I think the key core of being a Christian is realizing that you can't save 
yourself, believing God came to Earth as Jesus Christ, believing He died on 
the cross for our sins, believing He rose from the dead, and believing you 
can ask Him into your heart to accept God's gift of salvation.

I think that's the key things. I think the other beliefs come as a person 
grows in maturity as a Christian. That doesn't mean they'll necessarily 
agree on all things with me; as I've said before, I may have incorrect 
interpretations. But, so far, what I've been posting is where I am in my 
faith now.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Helio W.
LOL

http://russellsteapot.com/images/rsgallery/original/Image54.jpg


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Helio W.
Charlie,

Watch: http://www.thegodmovie.com

Then think.


HW


On 1/25/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Wait. I believe Biblical teachings are God's Words. There is a lot of
> complexity in that concept I know. This could start the whole thread of
> "...the Bible was defined by men..." and "...there are secret writings the
> power mongers took out..." etc (that recent Da Vinci Code movie has caused
> a lot of stir in this arena, as ridiculous and baseless as the facts in
> the
> movie were...). Anyway, I don't want to go down the Biblical
> authenticity debate road (I'm pressed for time just responding to these
> messages).
>
> So, I do mean I want to submit my sense of fairness to God's. I believe
> the
> Bible reflects it, but I can't say I understand with complete, 100%
> certainty everything contained in the Bible. In the end, I want God's will
> to be done regardless of whether or not I've misinterpreted some portion
> of
> scripture.
>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Helio W.
" I believe God is real, and the Christian religion is "right", based on
faith, what I've researched, and what He's done in my life. "

Billions of Muslims and Hindus (among others) can say exactly the same
thing. Your God is no more real than theirs because of your "arguments".

Yes, I'm a infidel.

I don't believe in God for the exact same reasons I don't believe in Zeus,
Vishnu, Osiris, etc.

I'll bring something that Richard Dawkins said: You're an atheist too,
Charlie. Didn't you know it? You're an atheist regarding all deities from
other religions. You just need to go one God further.

HW

On 1/25/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I believe God is real, and the Christian religion is "right", based on
> faith, what I've researched, and what He's done in my life.
>
> I can't recall (that bad memory ya know) if you're a professed atheist or
> not. If you are, what makes you think God does not exist?
>
> -Charlie


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> And God gave you free will to try to lure other people
> to Hell.  Atheists and Satanists work for the same
> boss.

I should point I am a monarchical anarchist, it's very difficult for me
to take a master.

> 
> 
> --- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Michael Madigan wrote:
>>> Jesus didn't choose his religion.  He was born a
>> Jew
>>> because God chose to have him be a Jew.  
>>>
>>>
>> And seemingly god chose you to be an  (I should
>> end it here)
>>
>>
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>>
> 
> 
> Saddam - Hung for the Holidays
> http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingmike
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> Hmmm gloating over a man who killed millions upon
> millions of people doesn't strike me as being wrong. 

Wrong? I was talking about christian or un-christian. And it is a very
un-christian attitude.

> And I don't think the tears that you shed for him
> strikes me as being right.

Hahaha! Another blatant demonstration of your one track mind. I shed no
tears at all for the tyrant (though he died in a brave manner, I respect
him for that).

> 
> Laughing at your shortcomings is downright funny.
> 
> 
> "you going down for sure".  "I not be going down, my
> brotha"
> 
> 
> 
>> Gloating over another human being's death is a good
>> or bad deed?
>> Spreading hate feelings and words, is it a good or
>> bad deed?
>> Laughing at other people's shortcomings, is it a
>> good or bad deed?
>> So, I guess I'll convert on that last call. You
>> going down for sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
> 
> 
> Saddam - Hung for the Holidays
> http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingmike
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> Satan was created by God and given free will. 
> 

Actually the angel's name was Lucifer. I think Satan comes from the arab
word Shaitan which means demon.

> 
> --- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Charlie Coleman wrote:
>>> At 08:51 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
>>>
> Some things in Biblical teaching don't sound
>> 'fair' to me. But I will
> submit my sense of fairness to God's,
 Nnnnope! You will submit your sense of fairness
>> to the biblical
 teachings. Not necessarily the same thing.
>>> Wait. I believe Biblical teachings are God's
>> Words. There is a lot of 
>>> complexity in that concept I know. This could
>> start the whole thread of 
>>> "...the Bible was defined by men..." and "...there
>> are secret writings the 
>>> power mongers took out..." etc (that recent Da
>> Vinci Code movie has caused 
>>> a lot of stir in this arena, as ridiculous and
>> baseless as the facts in the 
>>> movie were...). Anyway, I don't want to go
>> down the Biblical 
>>> authenticity debate road (I'm pressed for time
>> just responding to these 
>>> messages).
>>>
>>> So, I do mean I want to submit my sense of
>> fairness to God's. I believe the 
>>> Bible reflects it, but I can't say I understand
>> with complete, 100% 
>>> certainty everything contained in the Bible. In
>> the end, I want God's will 
>>> to be done regardless of whether or not I've
>> misinterpreted some portion of 
>>> scripture.
>>>
> whereas you reject God's existence
> because he doesn't fit your sense of logic.
 BTW, I don't reject god's existence, I just think
>> the god you described
 is too limited. You froze him/her/it in time, you
>> won't allow him/her/it
 to change. You won't allow him/her/it free will
>> (which he/her/it grants
 you). You want to state what he/her/it can or
>> cannot do. You want a god
 to your own size. I think you're headed for a big
>> surprise, or not (you
 might just die).
>>> I hope I didn't offend. My general phrase of "
>> because he doesn't fit 
>>> your sense of logic..." was directed toward the
>> general group of atheists 
>>> (well, maybe to Ed because I think I was
>> responding to his text directly).
>>> But you bring up an interesting point. And I would
>> say all believers 
>>> struggle with it. We put expectations on God based
>> on our own 
>>> understanding. But because of our current world,
>> we can only interpret and 
>>> suppose based on what we know. It may end up I'll
>> meet Buddah and Muhammed 
>>> in Heaven and we'll have a long discussion on how
>> I misunderstood things 
>>> down on Earth. All I can say is the beliefs I've
>> arrived at so far have 
>>> come from my study of the Bible, research into
>> other religions, and lots of 
>>> prayer.
>>>
>>> For even more fun, do you deny that God could
>> limit Himself if He so chose? 
>>> In other words, if He made a Covenant with humans,
>> do you think He would 
>>> stick to it?
>>>
>> If he is really omnipotent, and always tells the
>> truth (though that
>> would be a limitation to his omnipotence), then I
>> think he would never
>> have the desire to do that as that would put limits
>> to him and hence
>> he'd no longer be omnipotent (that supposing he is
>> limited by logic, if
>> he is not then I can say nothing about him, nor can
>> you. That is what
>> some religions state, that you can say nothing about
>> god). Once you
>> start playing with concepts like Omnipotence,
>> eternity, etc. you get
>> into contradictions very easily.
>>
>> Taking it yet to another level. Have you noticed
>> that everything is
>> within god, that god is everywhere, that everything
>> came from and
>> through god? Then it follows that the devil also
>> came from and through
>> god, and god is also in hell. And before you go into
>> uncharted territory
>> I'd like to remind you that god gave humans free
>> will, he did not give
>> free will to his angels.
>>
>>
>>> -Charlie 
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Michael Madigan
And God gave you free will to try to lure other people
to Hell.  Atheists and Satanists work for the same
boss.


--- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > Jesus didn't choose his religion.  He was born a
> Jew
> > because God chose to have him be a Jew.  
> > 
> > 
> 
> And seemingly god chose you to be an  (I should
> end it here)
> 
> 
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> 


Saddam - Hung for the Holidays
http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingmike


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Michael Madigan
Hmmm gloating over a man who killed millions upon
millions of people doesn't strike me as being wrong. 
And I don't think the tears that you shed for him
strikes me as being right.

Laughing at your shortcomings is downright funny.


"you going down for sure".  "I not be going down, my
brotha"



> Gloating over another human being's death is a good
> or bad deed?
> Spreading hate feelings and words, is it a good or
> bad deed?
> Laughing at other people's shortcomings, is it a
> good or bad deed?
> So, I guess I'll convert on that last call. You
> going down for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Saddam - Hung for the Holidays
http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingmike


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> Jesus didn't choose his religion.  He was born a Jew
> because God chose to have him be a Jew.  
> 
> 

And seemingly god chose you to be an  (I should end it here)


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> This "Good deeds" vs "saved by grace" argument is
> mostly moot because I can't think of anyone who was
> "saved by grace" and wasn't doing good deeds.
> 

So if your 'big' brain can't think of it then it is out of god's power.


> Additionally, a Catholic doing good deeds is probably
> already saved by grace.
> 
> The only time this comes into play is when an Atheist
> or pagan does "good deeds".  Here we have a paradox. 

Check out the meaning of 'paradox'. Maybe you'll get to figure what you
are implying here (or, considering your lack of manners, maybe you meant
to imply it).

> It will be up to God to decide what he does with that
> person.  Or another example is a miserable person who
> attends weekly services, then resumes his miserable
> ways.

Hey! Stop looking in the mirror!

> 
> what constitutes a "good deed"?  Having an abortion,
> then volunteering at a soup kitchen doesn't seem to
> have any redeming value, unless that person has asked
> God's forgiveness for the abortion.  We know that
> every evil man has probably done good deeds.
> 

Gloating over another human being's death is a good or bad deed?
Spreading hate feelings and words, is it a good or bad deed?
Laughing at other people's shortcomings, is it a good or bad deed?
So, I guess I'll convert on that last call. You going down for sure.




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Michael Madigan
Satan was created by God and given free will. 


--- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Charlie Coleman wrote:
> > At 08:51 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> > 
> >>> Some things in Biblical teaching don't sound
> 'fair' to me. But I will
> >>> submit my sense of fairness to God's,
> >> Nnnnope! You will submit your sense of fairness
> to the biblical
> >> teachings. Not necessarily the same thing.
> > 
> > Wait. I believe Biblical teachings are God's
> Words. There is a lot of 
> > complexity in that concept I know. This could
> start the whole thread of 
> > "...the Bible was defined by men..." and "...there
> are secret writings the 
> > power mongers took out..." etc (that recent Da
> Vinci Code movie has caused 
> > a lot of stir in this arena, as ridiculous and
> baseless as the facts in the 
> > movie were...). Anyway, I don't want to go
> down the Biblical 
> > authenticity debate road (I'm pressed for time
> just responding to these 
> > messages).
> > 
> > So, I do mean I want to submit my sense of
> fairness to God's. I believe the 
> > Bible reflects it, but I can't say I understand
> with complete, 100% 
> > certainty everything contained in the Bible. In
> the end, I want God's will 
> > to be done regardless of whether or not I've
> misinterpreted some portion of 
> > scripture.
> > 
> >>> whereas you reject God's existence
> >>> because he doesn't fit your sense of logic.
> >> BTW, I don't reject god's existence, I just think
> the god you described
> >> is too limited. You froze him/her/it in time, you
> won't allow him/her/it
> >> to change. You won't allow him/her/it free will
> (which he/her/it grants
> >> you). You want to state what he/her/it can or
> cannot do. You want a god
> >> to your own size. I think you're headed for a big
> surprise, or not (you
> >> might just die).
> > 
> > I hope I didn't offend. My general phrase of "
> because he doesn't fit 
> > your sense of logic..." was directed toward the
> general group of atheists 
> > (well, maybe to Ed because I think I was
> responding to his text directly).
> > 
> > But you bring up an interesting point. And I would
> say all believers 
> > struggle with it. We put expectations on God based
> on our own 
> > understanding. But because of our current world,
> we can only interpret and 
> > suppose based on what we know. It may end up I'll
> meet Buddah and Muhammed 
> > in Heaven and we'll have a long discussion on how
> I misunderstood things 
> > down on Earth. All I can say is the beliefs I've
> arrived at so far have 
> > come from my study of the Bible, research into
> other religions, and lots of 
> > prayer.
> > 
> > For even more fun, do you deny that God could
> limit Himself if He so chose? 
> > In other words, if He made a Covenant with humans,
> do you think He would 
> > stick to it?
> > 
> 
> If he is really omnipotent, and always tells the
> truth (though that
> would be a limitation to his omnipotence), then I
> think he would never
> have the desire to do that as that would put limits
> to him and hence
> he'd no longer be omnipotent (that supposing he is
> limited by logic, if
> he is not then I can say nothing about him, nor can
> you. That is what
> some religions state, that you can say nothing about
> god). Once you
> start playing with concepts like Omnipotence,
> eternity, etc. you get
> into contradictions very easily.
> 
> Taking it yet to another level. Have you noticed
> that everything is
> within god, that god is everywhere, that everything
> came from and
> through god? Then it follows that the devil also
> came from and through
> god, and god is also in hell. And before you go into
> uncharted territory
> I'd like to remind you that god gave humans free
> will, he did not give
> free will to his angels.
> 
> 
> > -Charlie 
> > 
> > 
> > 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 03:13 PM 1/24/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>> On Jan 24, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Charlie Coleman wrote:
>>
>>> I'm simply doing what I'm called to do by my faith.
>> I bet you love it when others do what they are called to do by 
>> their
>> faith, too!
>>
>> Jihad, anyone?  ;-)
> 
> 
> Well, you should be all for that Jihad stuff right? I mean, by the process 
> of natural selection, the strongest, smartest, most adaptable, etc should 
> be the only ones that survive. 

Mate, it works on species, and over millions of years. And if you've
observed nature it favors diversity. That way the species may adapt when
conditions change. When an insect 'develops' resistance to a poison,
that's bullshit, the ones without resistance die and the ones who had
the resistance in them get to breed, so next generation is resistant.
But nothing 'develops'. This is to illustrate the high survival value of
diversity. So if Jihad exterminates those different then humans will be
less diverse (culturally in this case) and will have probably lost
survival capital.

> If Jihadists kill a few billion others, the 
> human race as a whole will be stronger for it right? Or if the rest of the 
> human race finds the resolve to kill all Jihadists, then we'd be all the 
> stronger for that too.
> 
> Now that would be an interesting bumper sticker, "Atheists for Jihad!"
> 
> ;-)
> 
> -Charlie 
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 08:51 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> 
>>> Some things in Biblical teaching don't sound 'fair' to me. But I will
>>> submit my sense of fairness to God's,
>> Nnnnope! You will submit your sense of fairness to the biblical
>> teachings. Not necessarily the same thing.
> 
> Wait. I believe Biblical teachings are God's Words. There is a lot of 
> complexity in that concept I know. This could start the whole thread of 
> "...the Bible was defined by men..." and "...there are secret writings the 
> power mongers took out..." etc (that recent Da Vinci Code movie has caused 
> a lot of stir in this arena, as ridiculous and baseless as the facts in the 
> movie were...). Anyway, I don't want to go down the Biblical 
> authenticity debate road (I'm pressed for time just responding to these 
> messages).
> 
> So, I do mean I want to submit my sense of fairness to God's. I believe the 
> Bible reflects it, but I can't say I understand with complete, 100% 
> certainty everything contained in the Bible. In the end, I want God's will 
> to be done regardless of whether or not I've misinterpreted some portion of 
> scripture.
> 
>>> whereas you reject God's existence
>>> because he doesn't fit your sense of logic.
>> BTW, I don't reject god's existence, I just think the god you described
>> is too limited. You froze him/her/it in time, you won't allow him/her/it
>> to change. You won't allow him/her/it free will (which he/her/it grants
>> you). You want to state what he/her/it can or cannot do. You want a god
>> to your own size. I think you're headed for a big surprise, or not (you
>> might just die).
> 
> I hope I didn't offend. My general phrase of " because he doesn't fit 
> your sense of logic..." was directed toward the general group of atheists 
> (well, maybe to Ed because I think I was responding to his text directly).
> 
> But you bring up an interesting point. And I would say all believers 
> struggle with it. We put expectations on God based on our own 
> understanding. But because of our current world, we can only interpret and 
> suppose based on what we know. It may end up I'll meet Buddah and Muhammed 
> in Heaven and we'll have a long discussion on how I misunderstood things 
> down on Earth. All I can say is the beliefs I've arrived at so far have 
> come from my study of the Bible, research into other religions, and lots of 
> prayer.
> 
> For even more fun, do you deny that God could limit Himself if He so chose? 
> In other words, if He made a Covenant with humans, do you think He would 
> stick to it?
> 

If he is really omnipotent, and always tells the truth (though that
would be a limitation to his omnipotence), then I think he would never
have the desire to do that as that would put limits to him and hence
he'd no longer be omnipotent (that supposing he is limited by logic, if
he is not then I can say nothing about him, nor can you. That is what
some religions state, that you can say nothing about god). Once you
start playing with concepts like Omnipotence, eternity, etc. you get
into contradictions very easily.

Taking it yet to another level. Have you noticed that everything is
within god, that god is everywhere, that everything came from and
through god? Then it follows that the devil also came from and through
god, and god is also in hell. And before you go into uncharted territory
I'd like to remind you that god gave humans free will, he did not give
free will to his angels.


> -Charlie 
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Michael Madigan
Jesus didn't choose his religion.  He was born a Jew
because God chose to have him be a Jew.  


--- David Crooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:33 PM Charlie
> Coleman wrote:
> 
> >In a general sense, a lot of religions describe
> similar 'good deeds'
> that should be done by the >believers. That's about
> it where the
> similarity ends. 
> >Some of them call for forced conversion of
> non-believers, others say
> simply to speak the message >and let things end up
> where they may. Some
> specifically target other religions as the 'enemy', 
> >etc. A while back, my Sunday School class studied
> different religions
> for several months. We 
> >even went and talked with people of other religions
> to make sure our
> understanding of their
> > beliefs was correct.
> 
> I disagree, and still maintain that there are more
> similarities.
> 
> >One thing we found that sets Christianity apart is
> that it teaches the
> "good deeds" or doing the >"right deeds" are not
> what will save you.
> 
> I never thought I needed to be saved.  I prefer to
> be more of spiritual
> person and not follow any religion dogma.  Of
> course, my karma ran over
> your dogma. :-)
> 
> >I'd like to discuss your last sentence. You think
> it's "screwed up" to
> have a belief system that >where some believe
> they're right and others
> are wrong. 
> >I'll say it MUST be that way if you accept there is
> an ultimate TRUTH.
> Here is a rough 
> >comparison: back in the day of Columbus, some
> thought the Earth was
> flat, but others thought it >was a round. Both
> thought the others were
> wrong. Eventually one of them turned out to be wrong
> 
> >because there was an ultimate Truth to the matter.
> The problem at this
> point is religion is in a >realm other than the
> physical. We don't KNOW
> what's really there. Just like in Columbus's day, 
> >until someone was able to find a way to prove it,
> they didn't know for
> sure. So, assuming there >is an ultimate spiritual
> Truth, things will
> end up that one (and maybe more) religions were
> >"right" and other
> religions were "wrong".
> 
> You can have your truth and I will have mine.  I
> believe that if Jesus
> was alive today he would not belong to any religion.
>  People join
> religions for many reasons and I know if they were
> not aligned to the
> teachings then they would not be in that religion. 
> Many people go to
> the same church their parents go to and others (the
> rebels) jump the
> other direction to other religions or none at all.
> As you said earlier,
> God gave us freewill.
> 
> David L. Crooks
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 08:42 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> ...
>>> Nope. By my definition you are not a Christian because you refuse to 
>> accept
>>> God's Grace into your heart.
>> Hey! Didn't you say we have no control whatsoever over 'god's grace'?
>> So if there's nothing you can do to get it, then there's nothing you can
>> do to refuse it. Or do you question god's omnipotence?
> ...
> 
> I don't recall saying that. I've been saying things like we can't save 
> ourselves only God's grace can do that. Is that clearer?

Then it follows that also God's grace can save us, no matter what, god
has that power. Or do you deny god's power?

> 
> God gave us free will. So we make choices all the time. The most critical 
> choice, IMO, is whether or not to accept that we cannot obtain our own 
> salvation. E.g. we can't work it off, we can't buy it off, we can't 
> "intellectualize" it, etc. We have to accept God's grace, personally.
> 
> So I don't deny God's Omnipotence, but I do think He uses it where He 
> wants. So maybe He will bring all souls to Him in the end, I don't know. 
> All I know is His words while He was here on Earth say that is not how it's 
> going to be.

Well now you blew it man. He didn't speak, Jesus did all the talking and
claimed that it was his "father's" way.

> 
> -Charlie
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Michael Madigan
This "Good deeds" vs "saved by grace" argument is
mostly moot because I can't think of anyone who was
"saved by grace" and wasn't doing good deeds.

Additionally, a Catholic doing good deeds is probably
already saved by grace.

The only time this comes into play is when an Atheist
or pagan does "good deeds".  Here we have a paradox. 
It will be up to God to decide what he does with that
person.  Or another example is a miserable person who
attends weekly services, then resumes his miserable
ways.

what constitutes a "good deed"?  Having an abortion,
then volunteering at a soup kitchen doesn't seem to
have any redeming value, unless that person has asked
God's forgiveness for the abortion.  We know that
every evil man has probably done good deeds.

Mafia bosses donating large sums of stolen money to
the church are doing evil deeds and good deeds.  They
aren't fooling anybody, not even themselves. 
Homosexual priests who are molesting alter boys have
little chance of getting into heaven unless they too
are saved and stop molesting little boys.






--- Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 03:18 PM 1/25/2007 -0500, David Crooks wrote:
> 
> > >First, wouldn't you agree that in general
> everyone that has beliefs view 
> > others with opposing
> > >beliefs as wrong? The Hindus, Muslims, ancient
> Greeks, etc would all 
> > view my beliefs as wrong
> > >just as I view their beliefs as wrong. That is
> essentially the nature of 
> > a 'belief' in my
> > >opinion. So if you're implying I'm being
> unreasonable by thinking others 
> > are wrong, I don't
> > >agree.
> >
> >
> >
> >If you really study the religions, I think you
> would find that they have
> >more in common than not. I think religions is all
> about control.  I also
> >think a religion that is based on a belief system
> that we are right and
> >everyone is wrong is very screwed up!
> 
> In a general sense, a lot of religions describe
> similar 'good deeds' that 
> should be done by the believers. That's about it
> where the similarity ends. 
> Some of them call for forced conversion of
> non-believers, others say simply 
> to speak the message and let things end up where
> they may. Some 
> specifically target other religions as the 'enemy',
> etc. A while back, my 
> Sunday School class studied different religions for
> several months. We even 
> went and talked with people of other religions to
> make sure our 
> understanding of their beliefs was correct.
> 
> One thing we found that sets Christianity apart is
> that it teaches the 
> "good deeds" or doing the "right deeds" are not what
> will save you.
> 
> I'd like to discuss your last sentence. You think
> it's "screwed up" to have 
> a belief system that where some believe they're
> right and others are wrong. 
> I'll say it MUST be that way if you accept there is
> an ultimate TRUTH. Here 
> is a rough comparison: back in the day of Columbus,
> some thought the Earth 
> was flat, but others thought it was a round. Both
> thought the others were 
> wrong. Eventually one of them turned out to be wrong
> because there was an 
> ultimate Truth to the matter. The problem at this
> point is religion is in a 
> realm other than the physical. We don't KNOW what's
> really there. Just like 
> in Columbus's day, until someone was able to find a
> way to prove it, they 
> didn't know for sure. So, assuming there is an
> ultimate spiritual Truth, 
> things will end up that one (and maybe more)
> religions were "right" and 
> other religions were "wrong".
> 
> -Charlie
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 08:39 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> ...
>>> First, we are still human. What happens in our physical life hits us just
>>> like it does anyone else. Next, Christian belief is that life is sacred.
>>> When tragedies strike, our spirit mourns for the loss.
>> But if there's no loss, nor tragedy. In no time you'll meet them in
>> heaven, and you may be certain they'll be there. Or is your faith so flimsy?
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. During this discussion I imagined how I would feel if my 
> children were killed. Either by some tragedy or by another person. All I 
> can say is that I'd be grief-stricken. Maybe because I'll miss them in the 
> few years I have remaining here on Earth.

C'mon, you won't miss them the same way as if, say, they'd gone to live
abroad and you'll never see them again.
And if you don't feel that way then it means that your emotions (that
expression of your soul) don't run together with what you claim is your
faith. Ergo your faith is only superficial, it does not encompass the
whole of your soul.

> Maybe because I feel the loss for 
> not being able to teach and enjoy things with them for now. That kind of 
> thing. If they were killed by some other person, say a drunk driver, I 
> would want justice. And I would try, and pray for God's help, to forgive them.
> 
> So, if you think feeling that way means I have a "flimsy" faith, OK.
> 
> -Charlie 
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 08:56 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
>>> Of course that's not correct.  You have to be sincere
>>> in your confession and avoid doing the same wrong
>>> things.
>>>
>> Just ignorant bullshit. There have been Popes that granted certified
>> pardons for all sins in exchange for money or some political favor. And
>> what a Pope says, goes.
> 
> Well, you see, that kind of action is what has done great harm to people's 
> views of Christianity. Non-believers love to cite such acts in history as 
> proof the religion is meaningless. E.g. just give enough money and you'll 
> buy your way to heaven. That's just about as far from Christianity as you 
> can get.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think the Papcy (if that's the correct term) is where the 
> Catholic Church has gone the most wrong. As I understand it, the 
> traditional Catholic teaching is that the Pope is almost synonymous with 
> Christ when He was on Earth.

Not exactly, the teaching says that the Pope is always right when he
speaks about dogma (or something like that. Anyone with better info?).

> I think that is wrong, and actually flies in 
> the face of Biblical teaching. I apologize if I'm misstating the Catholic 
> view.
> 
> -Charlie 
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 08:29 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> ...
> 
>> I think it has been asked of you many times in this thread, but
>> considering you are seemingly contradicting your statements I'll ask you
>> once more.
>> ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN PRECEPTS  OR
>> BECAUSE YOU ACT ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN PRECEPTS?
> ...
> 
> I don't see how they're contradictory. Maybe some of my other posts have 
> already clarified this for you but I'll say it again.
> 
> Making a judgement (a guess) about whether or not someone else is a 
> Christian basically requires you look at their actions, words, etc. But 
> that judgement (guess) has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the 
> person is actually a Christian.
> 
> You are a Christian based on what is in your heart. If you go to a 
> Christian Church every Sunday, donate a lot to charity, help the poor, and 
> offer kindness to strangers, by all outward appearances you are a 
> Christian. However, if while you're doing all that, you are bitter in your 
> heart, and you don't really love God, and the only reason you keep doing 
> these things is because you think they'll "buy" you into heaven then, nope, 
> you are not a Christian. At the same time, consider a bum on the street 
> begging for money, and who maybe stealing sometimes. But in his heart he's 
> trying to let God control his life and he knows that the grace of God alone 
> is what can save him; he is a Christian.
> 

Fair enough, there is a buddhist saying that a rose will give you its
perfume without meaning to be good. I like to interpret it as that it is
it's nature, that if you are 'good' then you'll have no choice but to do
'good' (and vice versa).
Now, according to your beliefs, does a 'christian' have to believe in
exactly the same god you do, in exactly the same manner (e.g. let's say
you don't believe in angels and he does. Or he believes in everything
except that Mary was a virgin)? What latitude does he have? If he
accepts god in his heart and he accepts god in his heart and 'knows that
the grace of god alone is what can save him', is he a christian?

> So, 'behaving' like a Christian nor 'believing' in Christian precepts will 
> save you. It's what you've taken into your heart. If you think that means 
> 'believe', then OK. But I think it goes beyond belief. You've got to take 
> God's offer of grace personally and let it transform you. When someone does 
> that, the "good works" usually start happening.
> 
> Again, all this is just my opinion and understanding of the Gospel message.
> 
> -Charlie
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread David Crooks
On Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:33 PM Charlie Coleman wrote:

>In a general sense, a lot of religions describe similar 'good deeds'
that should be done by the >believers. That's about it where the
similarity ends. 
>Some of them call for forced conversion of non-believers, others say
simply to speak the message >and let things end up where they may. Some
specifically target other religions as the 'enemy', 
>etc. A while back, my Sunday School class studied different religions
for several months. We 
>even went and talked with people of other religions to make sure our
understanding of their
> beliefs was correct.

I disagree, and still maintain that there are more similarities.

>One thing we found that sets Christianity apart is that it teaches the
"good deeds" or doing the >"right deeds" are not what will save you.

I never thought I needed to be saved.  I prefer to be more of spiritual
person and not follow any religion dogma.  Of course, my karma ran over
your dogma. :-)

>I'd like to discuss your last sentence. You think it's "screwed up" to
have a belief system that >where some believe they're right and others
are wrong. 
>I'll say it MUST be that way if you accept there is an ultimate TRUTH.
Here is a rough 
>comparison: back in the day of Columbus, some thought the Earth was
flat, but others thought it >was a round. Both thought the others were
wrong. Eventually one of them turned out to be wrong 
>because there was an ultimate Truth to the matter. The problem at this
point is religion is in a >realm other than the physical. We don't KNOW
what's really there. Just like in Columbus's day, 
>until someone was able to find a way to prove it, they didn't know for
sure. So, assuming there >is an ultimate spiritual Truth, things will
end up that one (and maybe more) religions were >"right" and other
religions were "wrong".

You can have your truth and I will have mine.  I believe that if Jesus
was alive today he would not belong to any religion.  People join
religions for many reasons and I know if they were not aligned to the
teachings then they would not be in that religion.  Many people go to
the same church their parents go to and others (the rebels) jump the
other direction to other religions or none at all. As you said earlier,
God gave us freewill.

David L. Crooks


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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 03:18 PM 1/25/2007 -0500, David Crooks wrote:

> >First, wouldn't you agree that in general everyone that has beliefs view 
> others with opposing
> >beliefs as wrong? The Hindus, Muslims, ancient Greeks, etc would all 
> view my beliefs as wrong
> >just as I view their beliefs as wrong. That is essentially the nature of 
> a 'belief' in my
> >opinion. So if you're implying I'm being unreasonable by thinking others 
> are wrong, I don't
> >agree.
>
>
>
>If you really study the religions, I think you would find that they have
>more in common than not. I think religions is all about control.  I also
>think a religion that is based on a belief system that we are right and
>everyone is wrong is very screwed up!

In a general sense, a lot of religions describe similar 'good deeds' that 
should be done by the believers. That's about it where the similarity ends. 
Some of them call for forced conversion of non-believers, others say simply 
to speak the message and let things end up where they may. Some 
specifically target other religions as the 'enemy', etc. A while back, my 
Sunday School class studied different religions for several months. We even 
went and talked with people of other religions to make sure our 
understanding of their beliefs was correct.

One thing we found that sets Christianity apart is that it teaches the 
"good deeds" or doing the "right deeds" are not what will save you.

I'd like to discuss your last sentence. You think it's "screwed up" to have 
a belief system that where some believe they're right and others are wrong. 
I'll say it MUST be that way if you accept there is an ultimate TRUTH. Here 
is a rough comparison: back in the day of Columbus, some thought the Earth 
was flat, but others thought it was a round. Both thought the others were 
wrong. Eventually one of them turned out to be wrong because there was an 
ultimate Truth to the matter. The problem at this point is religion is in a 
realm other than the physical. We don't KNOW what's really there. Just like 
in Columbus's day, until someone was able to find a way to prove it, they 
didn't know for sure. So, assuming there is an ultimate spiritual Truth, 
things will end up that one (and maybe more) religions were "right" and 
other religions were "wrong".

-Charlie



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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Alan Lukachko
The Pope is the head of the Church. He only represents Christ on earth. He
is infallible (speaks the truth) in matters of faith only. That has occurred
only a few times in the history of the Church. Otherwise the Pope is no
different than you or I. He may have been elevated to a Christ like figure
by some but he is only a temporal leader of the Church.

The problem with the Catholic Church is insecure male ego. I have been
involved with several Catholic organizations and ultimately I leave because
insecure male ego gets in the way of the mission. Christ was inclusive and
wanted community. Unfortunately I see power hungry exclusivity and sometimes
the demise of strong healthy vibrant community.

If you can see through the s**t, a jewel of faith shines through and grows
in brilliance.  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Charlie Coleman
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:22 PM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

At 08:56 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> > Of course that's not correct.  You have to be sincere
> > in your confession and avoid doing the same wrong
> > things.
> >
>
>Just ignorant bullshit. There have been Popes that granted certified
>pardons for all sins in exchange for money or some political favor. And
>what a Pope says, goes.

Well, you see, that kind of action is what has done great harm to people's 
views of Christianity. Non-believers love to cite such acts in history as 
proof the religion is meaningless. E.g. just give enough money and you'll 
buy your way to heaven. That's just about as far from Christianity as you 
can get.

Unfortunately, I think the Papcy (if that's the correct term) is where the 
Catholic Church has gone the most wrong. As I understand it, the 
traditional Catholic teaching is that the Pope is almost synonymous with 
Christ when He was on Earth. I think that is wrong, and actually flies in 
the face of Biblical teaching. I apologize if I'm misstating the Catholic
view.

-Charlie 



[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 03:16 PM 1/24/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:

> > At that time I think I said doing good deeds is meaningless in terms of 
> salvation,
> > but that doing good deeds is still a commendable thing. Whether or not
> > there is a God we should all try to do good deeds when we can.
>
> Well, uh... that's what makes them "good", right?
>
> To me it seems that you are waffling on the use of the term
>'salvation'. I've always understood that the product of salvation was
>entrance into Heaven, and that those who are not saved are destined
>for an eternity of suffering. Is that correct? Or can you get into
>Heaven without being saved?

I think the term we're having the problem with is "Good". I'm saying that 
no measure of "good" gets you into heaven. But doing good deeds from a 
purely humanistic, non-God existence, point of view, is still a commendable 
trait.

But the definition of "good" could become a problem between believers and 
non-believers. For example, non-believers may think abortions are "good" 
because it can ease burdens on young people not ready for children. 
Believers may think abortion is "bad" because it ends a life that God 
created (and, of course non-believers don't think of it as "life" yet, and 
don't recognize God as having a role). So when we use phrases like "good" 
deeds, there will always be some discontinuity.

To answer your last questions directly, it's my understanding that you must 
be saved to get into Heaven. And for those not saved, there would be 
eternal suffering.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 03:13 PM 1/24/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>On Jan 24, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Charlie Coleman wrote:
>
> > I'm simply doing what I'm called to do by my faith.
>
> I bet you love it when others do what they are called to do by 
> their
>faith, too!
>
> Jihad, anyone?  ;-)


Well, you should be all for that Jihad stuff right? I mean, by the process 
of natural selection, the strongest, smartest, most adaptable, etc should 
be the only ones that survive. If Jihadists kill a few billion others, the 
human race as a whole will be stronger for it right? Or if the rest of the 
human race finds the resolve to kill all Jihadists, then we'd be all the 
stronger for that too.

Now that would be an interesting bumper sticker, "Atheists for Jihad!"

;-)

-Charlie 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 08:51 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:

> > Some things in Biblical teaching don't sound 'fair' to me. But I will
> > submit my sense of fairness to God's,
>
>Nnnnope! You will submit your sense of fairness to the biblical
>teachings. Not necessarily the same thing.

Wait. I believe Biblical teachings are God's Words. There is a lot of 
complexity in that concept I know. This could start the whole thread of 
"...the Bible was defined by men..." and "...there are secret writings the 
power mongers took out..." etc (that recent Da Vinci Code movie has caused 
a lot of stir in this arena, as ridiculous and baseless as the facts in the 
movie were...). Anyway, I don't want to go down the Biblical 
authenticity debate road (I'm pressed for time just responding to these 
messages).

So, I do mean I want to submit my sense of fairness to God's. I believe the 
Bible reflects it, but I can't say I understand with complete, 100% 
certainty everything contained in the Bible. In the end, I want God's will 
to be done regardless of whether or not I've misinterpreted some portion of 
scripture.

> > whereas you reject God's existence
> > because he doesn't fit your sense of logic.
>
>BTW, I don't reject god's existence, I just think the god you described
>is too limited. You froze him/her/it in time, you won't allow him/her/it
>to change. You won't allow him/her/it free will (which he/her/it grants
>you). You want to state what he/her/it can or cannot do. You want a god
>to your own size. I think you're headed for a big surprise, or not (you
>might just die).

I hope I didn't offend. My general phrase of " because he doesn't fit 
your sense of logic..." was directed toward the general group of atheists 
(well, maybe to Ed because I think I was responding to his text directly).

But you bring up an interesting point. And I would say all believers 
struggle with it. We put expectations on God based on our own 
understanding. But because of our current world, we can only interpret and 
suppose based on what we know. It may end up I'll meet Buddah and Muhammed 
in Heaven and we'll have a long discussion on how I misunderstood things 
down on Earth. All I can say is the beliefs I've arrived at so far have 
come from my study of the Bible, research into other religions, and lots of 
prayer.

For even more fun, do you deny that God could limit Himself if He so chose? 
In other words, if He made a Covenant with humans, do you think He would 
stick to it?

-Charlie 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman

At 08:42 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
...
> > Nope. By my definition you are not a Christian because you refuse to 
> accept
> > God's Grace into your heart.
>
>Hey! Didn't you say we have no control whatsoever over 'god's grace'?
>So if there's nothing you can do to get it, then there's nothing you can
>do to refuse it. Or do you question god's omnipotence?
...

I don't recall saying that. I've been saying things like we can't save 
ourselves only God's grace can do that. Is that clearer?

God gave us free will. So we make choices all the time. The most critical 
choice, IMO, is whether or not to accept that we cannot obtain our own 
salvation. E.g. we can't work it off, we can't buy it off, we can't 
"intellectualize" it, etc. We have to accept God's grace, personally.

So I don't deny God's Omnipotence, but I do think He uses it where He 
wants. So maybe He will bring all souls to Him in the end, I don't know. 
All I know is His words while He was here on Earth say that is not how it's 
going to be.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 08:39 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
...
> > First, we are still human. What happens in our physical life hits us just
> > like it does anyone else. Next, Christian belief is that life is sacred.
> > When tragedies strike, our spirit mourns for the loss.
>
>But if there's no loss, nor tragedy. In no time you'll meet them in
>heaven, and you may be certain they'll be there. Or is your faith so flimsy?
...



I don't know. During this discussion I imagined how I would feel if my 
children were killed. Either by some tragedy or by another person. All I 
can say is that I'd be grief-stricken. Maybe because I'll miss them in the 
few years I have remaining here on Earth. Maybe because I feel the loss for 
not being able to teach and enjoy things with them for now. That kind of 
thing. If they were killed by some other person, say a drunk driver, I 
would want justice. And I would try, and pray for God's help, to forgive them.

So, if you think feeling that way means I have a "flimsy" faith, OK.

-Charlie 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 08:56 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> > Of course that's not correct.  You have to be sincere
> > in your confession and avoid doing the same wrong
> > things.
> >
>
>Just ignorant bullshit. There have been Popes that granted certified
>pardons for all sins in exchange for money or some political favor. And
>what a Pope says, goes.

Well, you see, that kind of action is what has done great harm to people's 
views of Christianity. Non-believers love to cite such acts in history as 
proof the religion is meaningless. E.g. just give enough money and you'll 
buy your way to heaven. That's just about as far from Christianity as you 
can get.

Unfortunately, I think the Papcy (if that's the correct term) is where the 
Catholic Church has gone the most wrong. As I understand it, the 
traditional Catholic teaching is that the Pope is almost synonymous with 
Christ when He was on Earth. I think that is wrong, and actually flies in 
the face of Biblical teaching. I apologize if I'm misstating the Catholic view.

-Charlie 



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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread David Crooks
On Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:03 PM Charlie Coleman wrote:

>First, wouldn't you agree that in general everyone that has beliefs
view others with opposing 
>beliefs as wrong? The Hindus, Muslims, ancient Greeks, etc would all
view my beliefs as wrong 
>just as I view their beliefs as wrong. That is essentially the nature
of a 'belief' in my 
>opinion. So if you're implying I'm being unreasonable by thinking
others are wrong, I don't
>agree.



If you really study the religions, I think you would find that they have
more in common than not. I think religions is all about control.  I also
think a religion that is based on a belief system that we are right and
everyone is wrong is very screwed up!

David L. Crooks


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 08:29 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
...

>I think it has been asked of you many times in this thread, but
>considering you are seemingly contradicting your statements I'll ask you
>once more.
>ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN CHRISTIAN PRECEPTS  OR
>BECAUSE YOU ACT ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN PRECEPTS?
...

I don't see how they're contradictory. Maybe some of my other posts have 
already clarified this for you but I'll say it again.

Making a judgement (a guess) about whether or not someone else is a 
Christian basically requires you look at their actions, words, etc. But 
that judgement (guess) has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the 
person is actually a Christian.

You are a Christian based on what is in your heart. If you go to a 
Christian Church every Sunday, donate a lot to charity, help the poor, and 
offer kindness to strangers, by all outward appearances you are a 
Christian. However, if while you're doing all that, you are bitter in your 
heart, and you don't really love God, and the only reason you keep doing 
these things is because you think they'll "buy" you into heaven then, nope, 
you are not a Christian. At the same time, consider a bum on the street 
begging for money, and who maybe stealing sometimes. But in his heart he's 
trying to let God control his life and he knows that the grace of God alone 
is what can save him; he is a Christian.

So, 'behaving' like a Christian nor 'believing' in Christian precepts will 
save you. It's what you've taken into your heart. If you think that means 
'believe', then OK. But I think it goes beyond belief. You've got to take 
God's offer of grace personally and let it transform you. When someone does 
that, the "good works" usually start happening.

Again, all this is just my opinion and understanding of the Gospel message.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-25 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 04:06 PM 1/24/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>Charlie,
>
>Do you think the ancient Greeks, with their spectacular achievements, were
>all fooling themselves by believing in Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, etc?
>
>What about ancient Egyptians?
>
>What about thousands of years of chinese history and cultural tradition,
>human beings doing good and bad things without your God?
>
>Do you realise hindus, buddhists, muslims, etc are all themselves 100% sure
>that their beliefs are true? Why are they wrong and you're right? Just
>because you want?
>
>What makes you think your God is more real than the ancient ones?

First, wouldn't you agree that in general everyone that has beliefs view 
others with opposing beliefs as wrong? The Hindus, Muslims, ancient Greeks, 
etc would all view my beliefs as wrong just as I view their beliefs as 
wrong. That is essentially the nature of a 'belief' in my opinion. So if 
you're implying I'm being unreasonable by thinking others are wrong, I 
don't agree.

There may be some people who try to 'merge' all the beliefs and say "... 
we're all going to the same place...", but if you look at the religions 
they're trying to 'merge', the core foundations just don't agree. So I'm 
not one of those who believe everything will be OK as long as you believe 
in something. Again, I could be wrong, but that is my belief.

I believe there has always only been 1 God. Like I said before, how He 
deals with people is at a personal level. So, did all those 
"non-Christians" in ancient times go to Hell? I have no idea. It doesn't 
seem fair to me that they would, but I don't know.

I believe God is real, and the Christian religion is "right", based on 
faith, what I've researched, and what He's done in my life.

I can't recall (that bad memory ya know) if you're a professed atheist or 
not. If you are, what makes you think God does not exist?

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Michael Madigan
I think it's some third-world language.



--- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What language is "Portugese"? LOL
> 
> 
> On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Michael Madigan wrote:
> > > I try to stay out of the Portugese mail groups.
> >
> > Are you afraid of answering a simple question?
> > Will you be as unforgiving when an english
> speaking person makes some
> > other mistake, or will they be forgiven?
> >
> > >
> > > --- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > >>> I still doesn't understand why you doesn't
> > >> understand.
> > >> Wow! You caught Helio, who is Brazilian, making
> a
> > >> mistake while writing
> > >> in english. Wonder how are your portuguese
> lessons
> > >> going. BTW, will you
> > >> be as unforgiving when an english speaking
> person
> > >> makes some other
> > >> mistake, or will they be forgiven?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> >  I still doesn't understand why a so loving
> god
> > >> would
> >  prefer to burn us alive
> >  rather than simply ignore us.
> > 
> > 
> >  On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >  wrote:
> > > Michael Madigan wrote:
> > >> They'll all have their chance to accept
> Christ
> >  right
> > >> before the end.
> > >>
> > > Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know
> where
> >  you've been sent before
> > > I make my decision.
> > >
> > >
> > >> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >  wrote:
> > >>> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must
> believe,
> > >>> otherwise you're unfaithful
> > >>> and will burn in hell.
> > >>>
> > >>> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> > >>> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> > >>> persons?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >>> wrote:
> >  At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe
> wrote:
> > > On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen
> the
> >  Cook
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>  And thus you are perfectly
> content to
> > >>> love and worship a being
> >  who
> > >>> would take someone like me and torture
> > >> them
> > >>> for all eternity? Wow, if
> > >>> that's what your view of Christianity
> > >>> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > >>> a part of it.
> > >> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We
> are
> > >>> supposed to love all,  and
> > > if you
> > >> agree with us then great.  If not, you
> are
> > >>> still in God's hands
> > > and  that is
> > >> good enough for me.
> > > That's fine, but it sure isn't
> what
> > >>> Charlie is stating.
> >  According
> > > to
> > > him, you can love all, but if you accept
> his
> > >>> personal view of things,
> > > you will burn in Hell. Exactly the
> opposite
> >  of
> > >>> what you state.
> >  Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought
> we
> >  were
> > >>> talking about our beliefs
> >  here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I
> say
> >  that
> > >>> I have faith in God to
> >  do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
> >  can't
> > >>> judge for sure or not
> >  someone else's salvation?
> > 
> >  What I've been trying to do is put forth
> what
> >  I
> > >>> believe is the path to
> >  salvation. According to my beliefs there
> is
> >  only
> > >>> one way, through Jesus
> >  Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
> >  exactly
> > >>> what Steve said in that,
> >  in the end, individuals are in God's
> hands. I
> > >>> don't think that means God
> >  will automatically 'save' everyone in the
> >  world. I
> > >>> think it means He'll
> >  deal with each person on an individual
> basis.
> >  How
> > >>> that person responds to
> >  Him determines their future. But, again,
> > >> maybe
> >  I'm
> > >>> wrong.
> >  -Charlie
> > 
> > >>
> >
> >
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
What language is "Portugese"? LOL


On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > I try to stay out of the Portugese mail groups.
>
> Are you afraid of answering a simple question?
> Will you be as unforgiving when an english speaking person makes some
> other mistake, or will they be forgiven?
>
> >
> > --- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Madigan wrote:
> >>> I still doesn't understand why you doesn't
> >> understand.
> >> Wow! You caught Helio, who is Brazilian, making a
> >> mistake while writing
> >> in english. Wonder how are your portuguese lessons
> >> going. BTW, will you
> >> be as unforgiving when an english speaking person
> >> makes some other
> >> mistake, or will they be forgiven?
> >>
> >>
> >>> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
>  I still doesn't understand why a so loving god
> >> would
>  prefer to burn us alive
>  rather than simply ignore us.
> 
> 
>  On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  wrote:
> > Michael Madigan wrote:
> >> They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
>  right
> >> before the end.
> >>
> > Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
>  you've been sent before
> > I make my decision.
> >
> >
> >> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  wrote:
> >>> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> >>> otherwise you're unfaithful
> >>> and will burn in hell.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> >>> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> >>> persons?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> wrote:
>  At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> > On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the
>  Cook
> >>> wrote:
> >>>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> >>> love and worship a being
>  who
> >>> would take someone like me and torture
> >> them
> >>> for all eternity? Wow, if
> >>> that's what your view of Christianity
> >>> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> >>> a part of it.
> >> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> >>> supposed to love all,  and
> > if you
> >> agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> >>> still in God's hands
> > and  that is
> >> good enough for me.
> > That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> >>> Charlie is stating.
>  According
> > to
> > him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> >>> personal view of things,
> > you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite
>  of
> >>> what you state.
>  Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we
>  were
> >>> talking about our beliefs
>  here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
>  that
> >>> I have faith in God to
>  do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
>  can't
> >>> judge for sure or not
>  someone else's salvation?
> 
>  What I've been trying to do is put forth what
>  I
> >>> believe is the path to
>  salvation. According to my beliefs there is
>  only
> >>> one way, through Jesus
>  Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
>  exactly
> >>> what Steve said in that,
>  in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> >>> don't think that means God
>  will automatically 'save' everyone in the
>  world. I
> >>> think it means He'll
>  deal with each person on an individual basis.
>  How
> >>> that person responds to
>  Him determines their future. But, again,
> >> maybe
>  I'm
> >>> wrong.
>  -Charlie
> 
> >>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> I try to stay out of the Portugese mail groups.

Are you afraid of answering a simple question?
Will you be as unforgiving when an english speaking person makes some
other mistake, or will they be forgiven?

> 
> --- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Michael Madigan wrote:
>>> I still doesn't understand why you doesn't
>> understand.
>> Wow! You caught Helio, who is Brazilian, making a
>> mistake while writing
>> in english. Wonder how are your portuguese lessons
>> going. BTW, will you
>> be as unforgiving when an english speaking person
>> makes some other
>> mistake, or will they be forgiven?
>>
>>
>>> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
 I still doesn't understand why a so loving god
>> would
 prefer to burn us alive
 rather than simply ignore us.


 On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 wrote:
> Michael Madigan wrote:
>> They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
 right
>> before the end.
>>
> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
 you've been sent before
> I make my decision.
>
>
>> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 wrote:
>>> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
>>> otherwise you're unfaithful
>>> and will burn in hell.
>>>
>>> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
>>> buddhists, etc are all deluded
>>> persons?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> wrote:
 At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the
 Cook
>>> wrote:
>>>  And thus you are perfectly content to
>>> love and worship a being
 who
>>> would take someone like me and torture
>> them
>>> for all eternity? Wow, if
>>> that's what your view of Christianity
>>> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
>>> a part of it.
>> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
>>> supposed to love all,  and
> if you
>> agree with us then great.  If not, you are
>>> still in God's hands
> and  that is
>> good enough for me.
> That's fine, but it sure isn't what
>>> Charlie is stating.
 According
> to
> him, you can love all, but if you accept his
>>> personal view of things,
> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite
 of
>>> what you state.
 Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we
 were
>>> talking about our beliefs
 here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
 that
>>> I have faith in God to
 do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
 can't
>>> judge for sure or not
 someone else's salvation?

 What I've been trying to do is put forth what
 I
>>> believe is the path to
 salvation. According to my beliefs there is
 only
>>> one way, through Jesus
 Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
 exactly
>>> what Steve said in that,
 in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
>>> don't think that means God
 will automatically 'save' everyone in the
 world. I
>>> think it means He'll
 deal with each person on an individual basis.
 How
>>> that person responds to
 Him determines their future. But, again,
>> maybe
 I'm
>>> wrong.
 -Charlie

>>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
Funny thing is that Madandgay all the time writes things like "precidensy"
and isn't even aware of it... LOL

Well, not a surprise coming from a guy who clearly is uneducated but who
tries to teach "science" lessons to Krystine and Ed (both REALLY trained in
science)...

Probably Madandgay has a degree on angel hierarchy studies  ROTFL

On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > I still doesn't understand why you doesn't understand.
> >
>
> Wow! You caught Helio, who is Brazilian, making a mistake while writing
> in english. Wonder how are your portuguese lessons going. BTW, will you
> be as unforgiving when an english speaking person makes some other
> mistake, or will they be forgiven?
>
>
> >
> > --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> I still doesn't understand why a so loving god would
> >> prefer to burn us alive
> >> rather than simply ignore us.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Michael Madigan wrote:
>  They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
> >> right
>  before the end.
> 
> >>> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
> >> you've been sent before
> >>> I make my decision.
> >>>
> >>>
>  --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> > You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> > otherwise you're unfaithful
> > and will burn in hell.
> >
> > BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> > buddhists, etc are all deluded
> > persons?
> >
> >
> > On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> >>> On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the
> >> Cook
> > wrote:
> >  And thus you are perfectly content to
> > love and worship a being
> >> who
> > would take someone like me and torture them
> > for all eternity? Wow, if
> > that's what your view of Christianity
> > involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > a part of it.
>  I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> > supposed to love all,  and
> >>> if you
>  agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> > still in God's hands
> >>> and  that is
>  good enough for me.
> >>> That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> > Charlie is stating.
> >> According
> >>> to
> >>> him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> > personal view of things,
> >>> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite
> >> of
> > what you state.
> >> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we
> >> were
> > talking about our beliefs
> >> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
> >> that
> > I have faith in God to
> >> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
> >> can't
> > judge for sure or not
> >> someone else's salvation?
> >>
> >> What I've been trying to do is put forth what
> >> I
> > believe is the path to
> >> salvation. According to my beliefs there is
> >> only
> > one way, through Jesus
> >> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
> >> exactly
> > what Steve said in that,
> >> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> > don't think that means God
> >> will automatically 'save' everyone in the
> >> world. I
> > think it means He'll
> >> deal with each person on an individual basis.
> >> How
> > that person responds to
> >> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe
> >> I'm
> > wrong.
> >> -Charlie
> >>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Michael Madigan
I try to stay out of the Portugese mail groups.

--- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > I still doesn't understand why you doesn't
> understand.
> > 
> 
> Wow! You caught Helio, who is Brazilian, making a
> mistake while writing
> in english. Wonder how are your portuguese lessons
> going. BTW, will you
> be as unforgiving when an english speaking person
> makes some other
> mistake, or will they be forgiven?
> 
> 
> > 
> > --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> I still doesn't understand why a so loving god
> would
> >> prefer to burn us alive
> >> rather than simply ignore us.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Michael Madigan wrote:
>  They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
> >> right
>  before the end.
> 
> >>> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
> >> you've been sent before
> >>> I make my decision.
> >>>
> >>>
>  --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> > You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> > otherwise you're unfaithful
> > and will burn in hell.
> >
> > BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> > buddhists, etc are all deluded
> > persons?
> >
> >
> > On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> >>> On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the
> >> Cook
> > wrote:
> >  And thus you are perfectly content to
> > love and worship a being
> >> who
> > would take someone like me and torture
> them
> > for all eternity? Wow, if
> > that's what your view of Christianity
> > involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > a part of it.
>  I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> > supposed to love all,  and
> >>> if you
>  agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> > still in God's hands
> >>> and  that is
>  good enough for me.
> >>> That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> > Charlie is stating.
> >> According
> >>> to
> >>> him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> > personal view of things,
> >>> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite
> >> of
> > what you state.
> >> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we
> >> were
> > talking about our beliefs
> >> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
> >> that
> > I have faith in God to
> >> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
> >> can't
> > judge for sure or not
> >> someone else's salvation?
> >>
> >> What I've been trying to do is put forth what
> >> I
> > believe is the path to
> >> salvation. According to my beliefs there is
> >> only
> > one way, through Jesus
> >> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
> >> exactly
> > what Steve said in that,
> >> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> > don't think that means God
> >> will automatically 'save' everyone in the
> >> world. I
> > think it means He'll
> >> deal with each person on an individual basis.
> >> How
> > that person responds to
> >> Him determines their future. But, again,
> maybe
> >> I'm
> > wrong.
> >> -Charlie
> >>
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> I still doesn't understand why you doesn't understand.
> 

Wow! You caught Helio, who is Brazilian, making a mistake while writing
in english. Wonder how are your portuguese lessons going. BTW, will you
be as unforgiving when an english speaking person makes some other
mistake, or will they be forgiven?


> 
> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I still doesn't understand why a so loving god would
>> prefer to burn us alive
>> rather than simply ignore us.
>>
>>
>> On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> Michael Madigan wrote:
 They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
>> right
 before the end.

>>> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
>> you've been sent before
>>> I make my decision.
>>>
>>>
 --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> otherwise you're unfaithful
> and will burn in hell.
>
> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> persons?
>
>
> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>>> On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the
>> Cook
> wrote:
>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> love and worship a being
>> who
> would take someone like me and torture them
> for all eternity? Wow, if
> that's what your view of Christianity
> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> a part of it.
 I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> supposed to love all,  and
>>> if you
 agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> still in God's hands
>>> and  that is
 good enough for me.
>>> That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> Charlie is stating.
>> According
>>> to
>>> him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> personal view of things,
>>> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite
>> of
> what you state.
>> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we
>> were
> talking about our beliefs
>> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
>> that
> I have faith in God to
>> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
>> can't
> judge for sure or not
>> someone else's salvation?
>>
>> What I've been trying to do is put forth what
>> I
> believe is the path to
>> salvation. According to my beliefs there is
>> only
> one way, through Jesus
>> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
>> exactly
> what Steve said in that,
>> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> don't think that means God
>> will automatically 'save' everyone in the
>> world. I
> think it means He'll
>> deal with each person on an individual basis.
>> How
> that person responds to
>> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe
>> I'm
> wrong.
>> -Charlie
>>


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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> I'm sure you're too arrogant to take the offer.
> 

Unless you're going to hell...

> 
> 
> --- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Michael Madigan wrote:
>>> They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
>> right
>>> before the end.
>>>
>> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
>> you've been sent before
>> I make my decision.
>>
>>
>>> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
 You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
 otherwise you're unfaithful
 and will burn in hell.

 BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
 buddhists, etc are all deluded
 persons?


 On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 wrote:
> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>> On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook
 wrote:
  And thus you are perfectly content to
 love and worship a being
> who
 would take someone like me and torture them
 for all eternity? Wow, if
 that's what your view of Christianity
 involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
 a part of it.
>>> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
 supposed to love all,  and
>> if you
>>> agree with us then great.  If not, you are
 still in God's hands
>> and  that is
>>> good enough for me.
>> That's fine, but it sure isn't what
 Charlie is stating.
> According
>> to
>> him, you can love all, but if you accept his
 personal view of things,
>> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of
 what you state.
> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were
 talking about our beliefs
> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
>> that
 I have faith in God to
> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't
 judge for sure or not
> someone else's salvation?
>
> What I've been trying to do is put forth what I
 believe is the path to
> salvation. According to my beliefs there is only
 one way, through Jesus
> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
>> exactly
 what Steve said in that,
> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
 don't think that means God
> will automatically 'save' everyone in the world.
>> I
 think it means He'll
> deal with each person on an individual basis.
>> How
 that person responds to
> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe
>> I'm
 wrong.
> -Charlie
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Michael Madigan
I still doesn't understand why you doesn't understand.


--- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I still doesn't understand why a so loving god would
> prefer to burn us alive
> rather than simply ignore us.
> 
> 
> On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Michael Madigan wrote:
> > > They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
> right
> > > before the end.
> > >
> >
> > Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
> you've been sent before
> > I make my decision.
> >
> >
> > > --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> > >> otherwise you're unfaithful
> > >> and will burn in hell.
> > >>
> > >> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> > >> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> > >> persons?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> >  On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the
> Cook
> > >> wrote:
> > >>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> > >> love and worship a being
> > >>> who
> > >> would take someone like me and torture them
> > >> for all eternity? Wow, if
> > >> that's what your view of Christianity
> > >> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > >> a part of it.
> > > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> > >> supposed to love all,  and
> >  if you
> > > agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> > >> still in God's hands
> >  and  that is
> > > good enough for me.
> >  That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> > >> Charlie is stating.
> > >>> According
> >  to
> >  him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> > >> personal view of things,
> >  you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite
> of
> > >> what you state.
> > >>> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we
> were
> > >> talking about our beliefs
> > >>> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
> that
> > >> I have faith in God to
> > >>> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I
> can't
> > >> judge for sure or not
> > >>> someone else's salvation?
> > >>>
> > >>> What I've been trying to do is put forth what
> I
> > >> believe is the path to
> > >>> salvation. According to my beliefs there is
> only
> > >> one way, through Jesus
> > >>> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
> exactly
> > >> what Steve said in that,
> > >>> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> > >> don't think that means God
> > >>> will automatically 'save' everyone in the
> world. I
> > >> think it means He'll
> > >>> deal with each person on an individual basis.
> How
> > >> that person responds to
> > >>> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe
> I'm
> > >> wrong.
> > >>> -Charlie
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Michael Madigan
I'm sure you're too arrogant to take the offer.



--- Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > They'll all have their chance to accept Christ
> right
> > before the end.
> > 
> 
> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where
> you've been sent before
> I make my decision.
> 
> 
> > --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> >> otherwise you're unfaithful
> >> and will burn in hell.
> >>
> >> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> >> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> >> persons?
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>  On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook
> >> wrote:
> >>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> >> love and worship a being
> >>> who
> >> would take someone like me and torture them
> >> for all eternity? Wow, if
> >> that's what your view of Christianity
> >> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> >> a part of it.
> > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> >> supposed to love all,  and
>  if you
> > agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> >> still in God's hands
>  and  that is
> > good enough for me.
>  That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> >> Charlie is stating.
> >>> According
>  to
>  him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> >> personal view of things,
>  you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of
> >> what you state.
> >>> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were
> >> talking about our beliefs
> >>> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say
> that
> >> I have faith in God to
> >>> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't
> >> judge for sure or not
> >>> someone else's salvation?
> >>>
> >>> What I've been trying to do is put forth what I
> >> believe is the path to
> >>> salvation. According to my beliefs there is only
> >> one way, through Jesus
> >>> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe
> exactly
> >> what Steve said in that,
> >>> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> >> don't think that means God
> >>> will automatically 'save' everyone in the world.
> I
> >> think it means He'll
> >>> deal with each person on an individual basis.
> How
> >> that person responds to
> >>> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe
> I'm
> >> wrong.
> >>> -Charlie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ed Leafe
On Jan 24, 2007, at 6:43 PM, Helio W. wrote:

> I still doesn't understand why a so loving god would prefer to burn  
> us alive
> rather than simply ignore us.

Or deliberately make us ignorant of the one thing we need to save  
ourselves, and then punish us for his own design choices.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
Fixed:

I still don't understand why a so loving god would prefer to burn us alive
rather than simply ignore us.


On 1/24/07, Helio W. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I still doesn't understand why a so loving god would prefer to burn us
> alive rather than simply ignore us.
>
>
> On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Michael Madigan wrote:
> > > They'll all have their chance to accept Christ right
> > > before the end.
> > >
> >
> > Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where you've been sent before
> > I make my decision.
> >
> >
> > > --- "Helio W." < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> > >> otherwise you're unfaithful
> > >> and will burn in hell.
> > >>
> > >> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> > >> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> > >> persons?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> >  On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook
> > >> wrote:
> > >>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> > >> love and worship a being
> > >>> who
> > >> would take someone like me and torture them
> > >> for all eternity? Wow, if
> > >> that's what your view of Christianity
> > >> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > >> a part of it.
> > > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> > >> supposed to love all,  and
> >  if you
> > > agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> > >> still in God's hands
> >  and  that is
> > > good enough for me.
> >  That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> > >> Charlie is stating.
> > >>> According
> >  to
> >  him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> > >> personal view of things,
> >  you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of
> > >> what you state.
> > >>> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were
> > >> talking about our beliefs
> > >>> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that
> > >> I have faith in God to
> > >>> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't
> > >> judge for sure or not
> > >>> someone else's salvation?
> > >>>
> > >>> What I've been trying to do is put forth what I
> > >> believe is the path to
> > >>> salvation. According to my beliefs there is only
> > >> one way, through Jesus
> > >>> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe exactly
> > >> what Steve said in that,
> > >>> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> > >> don't think that means God
> > >>> will automatically 'save' everyone in the world. I
> > >> think it means He'll
> > >>> deal with each person on an individual basis. How
> > >> that person responds to
> > >>> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe I'm
> > >> wrong.
> > >>> -Charlie
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
I still doesn't understand why a so loving god would prefer to burn us alive
rather than simply ignore us.


On 1/24/07, Ricardo Aráoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Michael Madigan wrote:
> > They'll all have their chance to accept Christ right
> > before the end.
> >
>
> Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where you've been sent before
> I make my decision.
>
>
> > --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> >> otherwise you're unfaithful
> >> and will burn in hell.
> >>
> >> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> >> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> >> persons?
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>  On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook
> >> wrote:
> >>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> >> love and worship a being
> >>> who
> >> would take someone like me and torture them
> >> for all eternity? Wow, if
> >> that's what your view of Christianity
> >> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> >> a part of it.
> > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> >> supposed to love all,  and
>  if you
> > agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> >> still in God's hands
>  and  that is
> > good enough for me.
>  That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> >> Charlie is stating.
> >>> According
>  to
>  him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> >> personal view of things,
>  you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of
> >> what you state.
> >>> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were
> >> talking about our beliefs
> >>> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that
> >> I have faith in God to
> >>> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't
> >> judge for sure or not
> >>> someone else's salvation?
> >>>
> >>> What I've been trying to do is put forth what I
> >> believe is the path to
> >>> salvation. According to my beliefs there is only
> >> one way, through Jesus
> >>> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe exactly
> >> what Steve said in that,
> >>> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> >> don't think that means God
> >>> will automatically 'save' everyone in the world. I
> >> think it means He'll
> >>> deal with each person on an individual basis. How
> >> that person responds to
> >>> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe I'm
> >> wrong.
> >>> -Charlie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Michael Madigan wrote:
> They'll all have their chance to accept Christ right
> before the end.
> 

Wow! That's wonderful! Please let me know where you've been sent before
I make my decision.


> --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
>> otherwise you're unfaithful
>> and will burn in hell.
>>
>> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
>> buddhists, etc are all deluded
>> persons?
>>
>>
>> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
 On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook
>> wrote:
>>  And thus you are perfectly content to
>> love and worship a being
>>> who
>> would take someone like me and torture them
>> for all eternity? Wow, if
>> that's what your view of Christianity
>> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
>> a part of it.
> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
>> supposed to love all,  and
 if you
> agree with us then great.  If not, you are
>> still in God's hands
 and  that is
> good enough for me.
 That's fine, but it sure isn't what
>> Charlie is stating.
>>> According
 to
 him, you can love all, but if you accept his
>> personal view of things,
 you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of
>> what you state.
>>> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were
>> talking about our beliefs
>>> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that
>> I have faith in God to
>>> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't
>> judge for sure or not
>>> someone else's salvation?
>>>
>>> What I've been trying to do is put forth what I
>> believe is the path to
>>> salvation. According to my beliefs there is only
>> one way, through Jesus
>>> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe exactly
>> what Steve said in that,
>>> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
>> don't think that means God
>>> will automatically 'save' everyone in the world. I
>> think it means He'll
>>> deal with each person on an individual basis. How
>> that person responds to
>>> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe I'm
>> wrong.
>>> -Charlie
>>>
>>>
>>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ed Leafe
On Jan 24, 2007, at 12:29 PM, Charlie Coleman wrote:

> At that time I
> think I said doing good deeds is meaningless in terms of salvation,  
> but
> that doing good deeds is still a commendable thing. Whether or not  
> there is
> a God we should all try to do good deeds when we can.

Well, uh... that's what makes them "good", right?

To me it seems that you are waffling on the use of the term  
'salvation'. I've always understood that the product of salvation was  
entrance into Heaven, and that those who are not saved are destined  
for an eternity of suffering. Is that correct? Or can you get into  
Heaven without being saved?

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ed Leafe
On Jan 24, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Charlie Coleman wrote:

> I'm simply doing what I'm called to do by my faith.

I bet you love it when others do what they are called to do by their  
faith, too!

Jihad, anyone?  ;-)

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Michael Madigan
They'll all have their chance to accept Christ right
before the end.

--- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe,
> otherwise you're unfaithful
> and will burn in hell.
> 
> BTW, do you think that billions of hindus,
> buddhists, etc are all deluded
> persons?
> 
> 
> On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> > >On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >>  And thus you are perfectly content to
> love and worship a being
> > who
> > > >> would take someone like me and torture them
> for all eternity? Wow, if
> > > >> that's what your view of Christianity
> involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > > >> a part of it.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are
> supposed to love all,  and
> > > if you
> > > > agree with us then great.  If not, you are
> still in God's hands
> > > and  that is
> > > > good enough for me.
> > >
> > > That's fine, but it sure isn't what
> Charlie is stating.
> > According
> > > to
> > >him, you can love all, but if you accept his
> personal view of things,
> > >you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of
> what you state.
> >
> > Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were
> talking about our beliefs
> > here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that
> I have faith in God to
> > do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't
> judge for sure or not
> > someone else's salvation?
> >
> > What I've been trying to do is put forth what I
> believe is the path to
> > salvation. According to my beliefs there is only
> one way, through Jesus
> > Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe exactly
> what Steve said in that,
> > in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I
> don't think that means God
> > will automatically 'save' everyone in the world. I
> think it means He'll
> > deal with each person on an individual basis. How
> that person responds to
> > Him determines their future. But, again, maybe I'm
> wrong.
> >
> > -Charlie
> >
> >
> >
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
Charlie,

Do you think the ancient Greeks, with their spectacular achievements, were
all fooling themselves by believing in Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, etc?

What about ancient Egyptians?

What about thousands of years of chinese history and cultural tradition,
human beings doing good and bad things without your God?

Do you realise hindus, buddhists, muslims, etc are all themselves 100% sure
that their beliefs are true? Why are they wrong and you're right? Just
because you want?

What makes you think your God is more real than the ancient ones?





On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 02:03 PM 1/24/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>
> >You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe, otherwise you're unfaithful
> >and will burn in hell.
> >
> >BTW, do you think that billions of hindus, buddhists, etc are all deluded
> >persons?
>
> I don't mean to sound cruel, but yes, I do believe the beliefs of the
> Hindus, Buddhists, etc are not correct. But I can't say for sure what is
> in
> their heart. If you are born into a Hindu environment, and you never hear
> anything but Hindu teaching all your life, how could God condemn that
> person the hell? It doesn't sound fair to me. Again, all I can say is I
> have faith and trust in God to do what is right and just.
>
> But I do believe that Christianity is the only way to salvation. When I
> talk with Hindus (Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, etc) I just want to let
> them
> know what I believe. I don't call them stupid or jump up and down telling
> them they're going to hell (ya, I know, Christians may have a reputation
> for doing that). I'm simply doing what I'm called to do by my faith. If
> they tell me to take a hike, I will, no offense taken. It's up to God to
> work what he wants with that person. Maybe they'll remain in their
> religion
> and maybe that's OK with God, I really don't know. All I can do is let
> others know about what I believe.
>
> -Charlie
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 02:03 PM 1/24/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:

>You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe, otherwise you're unfaithful
>and will burn in hell.
>
>BTW, do you think that billions of hindus, buddhists, etc are all deluded
>persons?

I don't mean to sound cruel, but yes, I do believe the beliefs of the 
Hindus, Buddhists, etc are not correct. But I can't say for sure what is in 
their heart. If you are born into a Hindu environment, and you never hear 
anything but Hindu teaching all your life, how could God condemn that 
person the hell? It doesn't sound fair to me. Again, all I can say is I 
have faith and trust in God to do what is right and just.

But I do believe that Christianity is the only way to salvation. When I 
talk with Hindus (Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, etc) I just want to let them 
know what I believe. I don't call them stupid or jump up and down telling 
them they're going to hell (ya, I know, Christians may have a reputation 
for doing that). I'm simply doing what I'm called to do by my faith. If 
they tell me to take a hike, I will, no offense taken. It's up to God to 
work what he wants with that person. Maybe they'll remain in their religion 
and maybe that's OK with God, I really don't know. All I can do is let 
others know about what I believe.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 01:42 PM 1/24/2007 -0200, Helio W. wrote:
>You sure do have bad memory, Charlie.

...

Heh. Yep. Thanks for reminding me. I forgot about that.

:-)

-Charlie 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 10:55 AM 1/24/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>On Jan 24, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Charlie Coleman wrote:
>
> >> That's fine, but it sure isn't what Charlie is 
> stating.  According to
> >> him, you can love all, but if you accept his personal view of things,
> >> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of what you state.
> >
> > Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were talking about our  beliefs
> > here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that I have faith in  God to
> > do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't judge for sure or not
> > someone else's salvation?
>
> You said that unless someone accepts Christ as their Savior, then
>anything else they do in their life is pointless. You did make clear
>that this is your personal belief, but so did I ("his personal view").

Well, that's not an exact quote. And I think that was taken from a 
different thread when we were talking about "good deeds". At that time I 
think I said doing good deeds is meaningless in terms of salvation, but 
that doing good deeds is still a commendable thing. Whether or not there is 
a God we should all try to do good deeds when we can.

Does that make it clearer?

It sounds like I should stop posting because I just can't seem to get my 
point across... :-(

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
You can't be wrong Charlie. You must believe, otherwise you're unfaithful
and will burn in hell.

BTW, do you think that billions of hindus, buddhists, etc are all deluded
persons?


On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
> >On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook wrote:
> >
> > >>  And thus you are perfectly content to love and worship a being
> who
> > >> would take someone like me and torture them for all eternity? Wow, if
> > >> that's what your view of Christianity involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> > >> a part of it.
> > >
> > > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are supposed to love all,  and
> > if you
> > > agree with us then great.  If not, you are still in God's hands
> > and  that is
> > > good enough for me.
> >
> > That's fine, but it sure isn't what Charlie is stating.
> According
> > to
> >him, you can love all, but if you accept his personal view of things,
> >you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of what you state.
>
> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were talking about our beliefs
> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that I have faith in God to
> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't judge for sure or not
> someone else's salvation?
>
> What I've been trying to do is put forth what I believe is the path to
> salvation. According to my beliefs there is only one way, through Jesus
> Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe exactly what Steve said in that,
> in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I don't think that means God
> will automatically 'save' everyone in the world. I think it means He'll
> deal with each person on an individual basis. How that person responds to
> Him determines their future. But, again, maybe I'm wrong.
>
> -Charlie
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ed Leafe
On Jan 24, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Charlie Coleman wrote:

>> That's fine, but it sure isn't what Charlie is stating.  
>> According to
>> him, you can love all, but if you accept his personal view of things,
>> you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of what you state.
>
> Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were talking about our  
> beliefs
> here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that I have faith in  
> God to
> do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't judge for sure or not
> someone else's salvation?

You said that unless someone accepts Christ as their Savior, then  
anything else they do in their life is pointless. You did make clear  
that this is your personal belief, but so did I ("his personal view").

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 10:38 PM 1/23/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote:
>On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook wrote:
>
> >>  And thus you are perfectly content to love and worship a being who
> >> would take someone like me and torture them for all eternity? Wow, if
> >> that's what your view of Christianity involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
> >> a part of it.
> >
> > I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are supposed to love all,  and 
> if you
> > agree with us then great.  If not, you are still in God's hands 
> and  that is
> > good enough for me.
>
> That's fine, but it sure isn't what Charlie is stating. According 
> to
>him, you can love all, but if you accept his personal view of things,
>you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of what you state.

Whoa! Have I been that obtuse? I thought we were talking about our beliefs 
here so everything is 'opinion'. Didn't I say that I have faith in God to 
do what is right and just? Didn't I say I can't judge for sure or not 
someone else's salvation?

What I've been trying to do is put forth what I believe is the path to 
salvation. According to my beliefs there is only one way, through Jesus 
Christ. Maybe I'm wrong. I firmly believe exactly what Steve said in that, 
in the end, individuals are in God's hands. I don't think that means God 
will automatically 'save' everyone in the world. I think it means He'll 
deal with each person on an individual basis. How that person responds to 
Him determines their future. But, again, maybe I'm wrong.

-Charlie



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Helio W.
You sure do have bad memory, Charlie.

On 1/24/07, Charlie Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 08:07 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> ...
> > > No no no. I was not trying to say or imply that all Christians are
> > good. In
> > > fact, I think I made that very clear later on.
> > >
> > > It seemed to me someone (Richardo?)
> >
> >Nope. 'Richardo' is innocent of what you claim. Blaming the wrong
> american.
> ...
>
> I wasn't sure. That's why the name was in parenthesis with a question
> mark.
> No 'blame' intended.
>
> -Charlie
>
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 09:12 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, Stephen the Cook wrote:
...
>Did anyone feel the earth quake?  Charlie and I agree.

LOL!

And for those of you who have said they've never witnessed miracle, well, 
you just have.

:-)

>It's the personal relationship with god that creates the Christian, and not
>the ceremony of attending gatherings.
...

Indeed!

Why can't I seem to learn to state things as succinctly as that? 

-Charlie




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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Charlie Coleman
At 08:07 PM 1/23/2007 -0300, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
...
> > No no no. I was not trying to say or imply that all Christians are 
> good. In
> > fact, I think I made that very clear later on.
> >
> > It seemed to me someone (Richardo?)
>
>Nope. 'Richardo' is innocent of what you claim. Blaming the wrong american.
...

I wasn't sure. That's why the name was in parenthesis with a question mark. 
No 'blame' intended.

-Charlie




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RE: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Stephen the Cook
Ricardo Aráoz <> wrote:

> There are two meanings of 'love all'. One would be 'Love none', the
> other would be love every single person. 
> If that's the case, if follows you love me. Speaking of which... I'm
> short of money right now 

I haven't won the powerball either :(





Stephen Russell
DBA / .Net Developer

Memphis TN 38115
901.246-0159

"A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
can do them absolutely no good." ---Unknown

http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/

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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-24 Thread Ricardo Aráoz
Stephen the Cook wrote:
> Ed Leafe <> wrote:
>> On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Charlie Coleman wrote:
>>
>>> Nope. By my definition you are not a Christian because you refuse to
>>> accept God's Grace into your heart. You flat out reject there is a
>>> God at all (IIRC). Of course, these are my assumptions based on past
>>> dialogs and I could be wrong. 
>>>
>>> You do good works, help others, etc. That makes you a 'good person'
>>> IMO. And, in fact, if I met you on the street and saw what you do for
>>> others and actually heard you refer to Christ in a positive light, I
>>> may indeed say I think you are a Christian if I were asked. But then
>>> if I'd have seen your other statements about being an atheist, etc,
>>> I'd have to say at that point you were not a Christian.
>>  And thus you are perfectly content to love and worship a being who
>> would take someone like me and torture them for all eternity? Wow, if
>> that's what your view of Christianity involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
>> a part of it.   
> 
> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are supposed to love all, and if you
> agree with us then great.  If not, you are still in God's hands and that is
> good enough for me.
> 

There are two meanings of 'love all'. One would be 'Love none', the
other would be love every single person.
If that's the case, if follows you love me. Speaking of which... I'm
short of money right now



> 
> Stephen Russell
> DBA / .Net Developer
> 
> Memphis TN 38115
> 901.246-0159
> 
> "A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
> can do them absolutely no good." ---Unknown
> 
> http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/
> 



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Re: [OT] Gonzales warns judges not to meddle

2007-01-23 Thread Ed Leafe
On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:09 PM, Stephen the Cook wrote:

>>  And thus you are perfectly content to love and worship a being who
>> would take someone like me and torture them for all eternity? Wow, if
>> that's what your view of Christianity involves, I'm sure glad I'm not
>> a part of it.
>
> I think it's just the opposite Ed.  We are supposed to love all,  
> and if you
> agree with us then great.  If not, you are still in God's hands and  
> that is
> good enough for me.

That's fine, but it sure isn't what Charlie is stating. According to  
him, you can love all, but if you accept his personal view of things,  
you will burn in Hell. Exactly the opposite of what you state.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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