Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

Personally, whether I buy an unlocked phone at full price, or I get a 
phone from a carrier and get a discount price with a two year 
commitment, I'm still talking about a good chunk of money. I don't think 
Pablo's argument is watered down at all just because he's buying an 
unlocked phone. In other words, Pablo's point would be just as valid if 
he'd bought the phone at a discount through his carrier and had to 
commit to a two year plan. This doesn't mean that I agree with Pablo and 
all of his points, I just don't think the fact that he's bought an 
unlocked phone changes anything.


On 11/16/2013 10:52 AM, peter wrote:

Hi,

this is a misstake that a lot of guys make. The carrier situation where you buy 
a phone with a contract and so paying less for your iphone is true.

Here in Belgium for example you'll pay 700 euro's for a new Iphone 5s 16gb with 
or without a contract.
If you want to buy your Iphone at an official Apple reseller, sometimes you 
have to wait for month to get your phone, cause that one carrier get the most 
phones and then the other stores.

kr

  
On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:53:29AM -0500, David L Minton, Jr wrote:

OkPablo, The only reason you pay full price for the phone is cause
you do not want to have a contract with a carrier.  If that cause
you are the one to be a fault for complaining that the cost is to
high.  There is nothing in this world that is perfect.  Thinks have
to start somewhere and things have to be fixed to keep them running
up to par.   I have the same phone and sixe you have.  Like I said ,
you are the one to choose to pay full price instead of the upgrade
price through your carrier.

- Original Message - From: "Pablo Morales"

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products.
Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I
pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well,
some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from
any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they
fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
That's true of all software anywhere.

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:

Hi,

With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In
regards to hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2
finger double tap doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.
Generally, the second try will do the trick.  About phone numbers
in a text, turn the rotor to links, flick down to the number, and
double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking you if you want to
call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a bug.
If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it
isn’t broken.

Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no
excuse for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people
on the list have very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that
were found in IOS 6 when it first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in
software is just a fact of life at launch.  There have been a
couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  Can we
at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?
And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was
running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the
accessible apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to
point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an
operating system that no longer being supported, that’s fine.
But, anyone can do that.

JMO

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info


On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales
 wrote:

Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like
every time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the
accessibility problems every time are worse. They are not
learning of the previous IOs experiences, they are not paying
attention to it, or they want to become 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[peter]

hmm, the prices are the same @ apple reseller or @ carrier.


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 12:06:37PM -0500, Pablo Morales wrote:
> yes, you are right. Some times buy a phone directly to apple is
> cheaper than buy it to a cell phone company. I bought my iPhone with
> my cell phone company, but I paid it the same day, like this I
> didn't use a contract when I will be paying in 2 years, more than
> paying it in one step.
> Now I got my iPhone unlocked, and without higher prices per month.
> ,
> - Original Message - From: "peter"
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> this is a misstake that a lot of guys make. The carrier situation
> where you buy a phone with a contract and so paying less for your
> iphone is true.
> 
> Here in Belgium for example you'll pay 700 euro's for a new Iphone
> 5s 16gb with or without a contract.
> If you want to buy your Iphone at an official Apple reseller,
> sometimes you have to wait for month to get your phone, cause that
> one carrier get the most phones and then the other stores.
> 
> kr
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:53:29AM -0500, David L Minton, Jr wrote:
> >OkPablo, The only reason you pay full price for the phone is cause
> >you do not want to have a contract with a carrier.  If that cause
> >you are the one to be a fault for complaining that the cost is to
> >high.  There is nothing in this world that is perfect.  Thinks have
> >to start somewhere and things have to be fixed to keep them running
> >up to par.   I have the same phone and sixe you have.  Like I said ,
> >you are the one to choose to pay full price instead of the upgrade
> >price through your carrier.
> >
> >- Original Message - From: "Pablo Morales"
> >
> >To: 
> >Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:27 AM
> >Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> >
> >
> >If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
> >say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their
> >products.
> >Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in
> >disagreement when I
> >pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
> >accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
> >Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.
> >
> >- Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
> >To: 
> >Cc: "viphone" 
> >Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
> >Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> >
> >
> >In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
> >There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted
> >people as well,
> >some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
> >not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
> >seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
> >they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no
> >different from
> >any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has
> >bugs, they
> >fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
> >That's true of all software anywhere.
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >>On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> >>
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In
> >>regards to hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2
> >>finger double tap doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.
> >>Generally, the second try will do the trick.  About phone numbers
> >>in a text, turn the rotor to links, flick down to the number, and
> >>double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking you if you want to
> >>call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a bug.
> >>If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it
> >>isn’t broken.
> >>
> >>Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no
> >>excuse for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people
> >>on the list have very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that
> >>were found in IOS 6 when it first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in
> >>software is just a fact of life at launch.  There have been a
> >>couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  Can we
> >>at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can s

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[peter]

Hi listers,

I've read this thread with a lot of intrest and want to give my personal 
thoughts.

First of all, it is great those days to see that mainstream companies step into 
Accessibility. Who had thought this 10 years ago.
Apple did an fantastic job, since 2009 we have access to touchscreen devices 
and that is great.

they made a high quality screen reader solution and made the standard high for 
others like Google. But since ios5 and also since Lion on the mac, VoiceOver 
feels sometimes like a beta. Features that worked before, didn't work anymore 
on the new release. I know software developemnt isn't easy, and when fixing 
bugs, you'll create an other one. Those bugs are reported by  serveral users 
more often, but aren't fix in a new release or update. Let me give some 
examples:

You all know the tts bug for email addresses back in ios4. @gmail.com became 
@gmai.l. This bug was fixed in Ios 5, when Lion came out that same bug was 
present.
In the upgrade to ml, this bug was fixed for some languages, but not all and 
now with the release to 10.9, this bug is still alive for some languages. 

Since Ios6 we have the punctuation feature, but when you have your punctution 
set to some VoiceOver will read ' somewhere. Now on Ios7 the bug is still there.

Now in Ios7 we have the ability to have more then one high quality voice for 
use with vo, there is also a setting where you can specify the speech rate for 
that particular voice, but that feature doens't work. Why giviing that option? 

On the mac, in some area's you can't use the trackpad to activiate an control, 
bug since they redesigned the extra menu in ml, but still alive in 10.9.

What I'm trying to say is that we have to be thankfull for the accessibility 
they gave, but also give them a message that more quality control have to be 
done.

Someone mentioned, becomme an Apple Developer and you can test beta's, I think 
this is not where devs account @ apple are made for.
Secondly, I need my phone or my Ipad or mac to do my job. When you are running 
a beta, there can be some cases that your phone or mac or whatever is in a 
state hwere you can't do your job. If an Iphone was 200 euro's well I'll buy 
one, for testing things.

Maybe they should first concentrate on stability and reliability and then 
adding new features. A bit of the Gw Micro way of thinking. 

An other thing I would like to see is that VoiceOver become a separate software 
bundle like google did with Talkback. It is a part of the os, but the release 
cycle is faster. So bugs can be addressed sonner without waiting a year for a 
major release.

In short my thoughts and oh yeah, the bugs I escribed where a few ;)

kr

-Peter

On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:53:29AM -0500, David L Minton, Jr wrote:
> OkPablo, The only reason you pay full price for the phone is cause
> you do not want to have a contract with a carrier.  If that cause
> you are the one to be a fault for complaining that the cost is to
> high.  There is nothing in this world that is perfect.  Thinks have
> to start somewhere and things have to be fixed to keep them running
> up to par.   I have the same phone and sixe you have.  Like I said ,
> you are the one to choose to pay full price instead of the upgrade
> price through your carrier.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Pablo Morales"
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
> say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products.
> Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I
> pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
> accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
> Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
> To: 
> Cc: "viphone" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
> There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well,
> some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
> not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
> seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
> they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from
> any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they
> fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
> That's true of all software anywhere.
> 
> Sent from m

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

yes, you are right. Some times buy a phone directly to apple is cheaper than 
buy it to a cell phone company. I bought my iPhone with my cell phone 
company, but I paid it the same day, like this I didn't use a contract when 
I will be paying in 2 years, more than paying it in one step.

Now I got my iPhone unlocked, and without higher prices per month.
,
- Original Message - 
From: "peter" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Hi,

this is a misstake that a lot of guys make. The carrier situation where you 
buy a phone with a contract and so paying less for your iphone is true.


Here in Belgium for example you'll pay 700 euro's for a new Iphone 5s 16gb 
with or without a contract.
If you want to buy your Iphone at an official Apple reseller, sometimes you 
have to wait for month to get your phone, cause that one carrier get the 
most phones and then the other stores.


kr


On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:53:29AM -0500, David L Minton, Jr wrote:

OkPablo, The only reason you pay full price for the phone is cause
you do not want to have a contract with a carrier.  If that cause
you are the one to be a fault for complaining that the cost is to
high.  There is nothing in this world that is perfect.  Thinks have
to start somewhere and things have to be fixed to keep them running
up to par.   I have the same phone and sixe you have.  Like I said ,
you are the one to choose to pay full price instead of the upgrade
price through your carrier.

- Original Message - From: "Pablo Morales"

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their 
products.
Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when 
I

pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as 
well,

some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different 
from
any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, 
they

fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
That's true of all software anywhere.

Sent from my iPhone

>On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In
>regards to hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2
>finger double tap doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.
>Generally, the second try will do the trick.  About phone numbers
>in a text, turn the rotor to links, flick down to the number, and
>double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking you if you want to
>call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a bug.
>If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it
>isn’t broken.
>
>Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no
>excuse for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people
>on the list have very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that
>were found in IOS 6 when it first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in
>software is just a fact of life at launch.  There have been a
>couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  Can we
>at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?
>And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was
>running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the
>accessible apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to
>point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an
>operating system that no longer being supported, that’s fine.
>But, anyone can do that.
>
>JMO
>
>Ricardo Walker
>rica...@appletothecore.info
>Twitter:@apple2thecore
>www.appletothecore.info
>
>>On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales
>> wrote:
>>
>>Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like
>>every time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the
>>accessibility problems every time are worse. They are not
>>learning of the previous IOs experiences, they are not payi

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[peter]

Hi,

this is a misstake that a lot of guys make. The carrier situation where you buy 
a phone with a contract and so paying less for your iphone is true.

Here in Belgium for example you'll pay 700 euro's for a new Iphone 5s 16gb with 
or without a contract.
If you want to buy your Iphone at an official Apple reseller, sometimes you 
have to wait for month to get your phone, cause that one carrier get the most 
phones and then the other stores.

kr

 
On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:53:29AM -0500, David L Minton, Jr wrote:
> OkPablo, The only reason you pay full price for the phone is cause
> you do not want to have a contract with a carrier.  If that cause
> you are the one to be a fault for complaining that the cost is to
> high.  There is nothing in this world that is perfect.  Thinks have
> to start somewhere and things have to be fixed to keep them running
> up to par.   I have the same phone and sixe you have.  Like I said ,
> you are the one to choose to pay full price instead of the upgrade
> price through your carrier.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Pablo Morales"
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
> say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products.
> Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I
> pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
> accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
> Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
> To: 
> Cc: "viphone" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
> There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well,
> some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
> not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
> seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
> they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from
> any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they
> fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
> That's true of all software anywhere.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> >On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In
> >regards to hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2
> >finger double tap doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.
> >Generally, the second try will do the trick.  About phone numbers
> >in a text, turn the rotor to links, flick down to the number, and
> >double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking you if you want to
> >call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a bug.
> >If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it
> >isn’t broken.
> >
> >Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no
> >excuse for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people
> >on the list have very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that
> >were found in IOS 6 when it first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in
> >software is just a fact of life at launch.  There have been a
> >couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  Can we
> >at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?
> >And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was
> >running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the
> >accessible apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to
> >point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an
> >operating system that no longer being supported, that’s fine.
> >But, anyone can do that.
> >
> >JMO
> >
> >Ricardo Walker
> >rica...@appletothecore.info
> >Twitter:@apple2thecore
> >www.appletothecore.info
> >
> >>On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like
> >>every time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the
> >>accessibility problems every time are worse. They are not
> >>learning of the previous IOs experiences, they are not paying
> >>attention to it, or they want to become the accessibility in
> >>something that ano

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

Why are you assuming people aren't reporting these issues to Apple 
accessibility?


If I'm having a issue on my iPhone, which I think may be a bug, I'll 
often ask about it here on the list. I want to know if it's user error 
first or maybe something unique to my iPhone. Obviously, if I'm doing 
something wrong myself, there's no need to add to the noise that the 
Apple accessibility team is already dealing with. If I hear that others 
are having the same problem, I'll include this in my message to Apple 
accessibility. Any issue I encounter on my iPhone that I determine is 
not user error I report to Apple, either through the accessibility 
mailing list or the feature request form on line.


On 11/11/2013 03:09 PM, simon wong wrote:

I don't see why when you guys report a bug or flaw in their system of the phone 
while you're doing it to the list why don't you CC a copy to the Apple people

Sent from my iPhone

On 2013-11-11, at 1:53 PM, "Christopher Chaltain"  wrote:


I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be careful 
here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and something 
we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. Accessibility is a right 
that we should be demanding. Of course, we should be positive and cooperative 
when someone is working towards accessibility, but we shouldn't just accept 
whatever comes our way. For example, We shouldn't settle for Mobile 
Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop pressing Microsoft for greater access 
to Windows Phone 8 just because they were kind enough to toss us this 
accessible scrap.

It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. People 
should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. There may be 
cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and one person's 
reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't think accusations of 
whining and complaining should keep people from mentioning perceived bugs and 
issues they're having with IOS. I too get frustrated with what I see as 
people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say where that line should be drawn, and 
I think we should be careful when we chastise someone for being spoiled and 
whining. Like I said, we want people talking about the issues they're having 
with their iPhones because as good as the Iphone is, it could still be better 
and it could definitely get worse if Apple feels it has to redirect resources 
away from accessibility and towards other critical projects.

On 11/11/2013 02:04 AM, BBS wrote:

John and Sieghard, I agree with you guys completely. Like it says in my Skype 
mood message, some blind people are so spoiled. And it’s true, because look at 
this thread. We should be lucky that Apple is giving us a pretty good screen 
reader. I’m just tired of reading threads about people bitching and complaining 
about Apple not living up to their standards. Even on the Mac list we have 
people demanding that Apple do this and do that to make Voiceover live up to 
their standards. I’m tired of this. I think if I find another post about this 
thread, I’m gonna hit the delete button because that is my friend of course. 
I’ll just end off by saying if you don’t like Apple, sell your Mac and your 
iPhone and go to Windows and Android. Now that my rant’s over, Regina, I have 
an iPhone 4S and I’m not experiencing any wifi issues.

Shawn
Sent From My White Mac Book

On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:17 PM, John Diakogeorgiou  wrote:


I think that Sieghard
put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
a few short years ago.


On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:

Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.

The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in
Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite
a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the
form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried. Physically
find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This lock

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David L Minton, Jr]

OkPablo, The only reason you pay full price for the phone is cause you do 
not want to have a contract with a carrier.  If that cause you are the one 
to be a fault for complaining that the cost is to high.  There is nothing in 
this world that is perfect.  Thinks have to start somewhere and things have 
to be fixed to keep them running up to par.   I have the same phone and sixe 
you have.  Like I said , you are the one to choose to pay full price instead 
of the upgrade price through your carrier.


- Original Message - 
From: "Pablo Morales" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products.
Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I
pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Alex Hall" 

To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well,
some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from
any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they
fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
That's true of all software anywhere.

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:

Hi,

With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to 
links, flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog 
appears asking you if you want to call, text, or save the number to 
contacts.  This is not a bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s 
one thing.  But it isn’t broken.


Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse 
for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list 
have very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 
when it first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of 
life at launch.  There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still 
on a .0 release.  Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can 
see what’s what?  And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, 
it was running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the 
accessible apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, 
if you want to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an operating system 
that no longer being supported, that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.


JMO

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  
wrote:


Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every 
time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility 
problems every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs 
experiences, they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become 
the accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 
7, I am getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But 
the response that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very 
poor excuse, because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems 
to access information with my apple devices.
Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not 
more support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have 
to be suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come 
to the end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.


- Original Message - From: 
To: "ViPhone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?


This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in 
ver 7 that were not in IOS6.
It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
compromised.
1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call 
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situatio

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Jerry MAder]

What about ITunes Radio?
I love ITunes Radio it's awesome! It lets me find new music to add to my
radio station lol.
Yeah and it lets me make up a station that I can customize.
It's cool, there are some bugs but you can't expect Apple to constantly
clear up every bug, if they did that it would probably take forever and IOS
seven wouldn't of even been released yet probably.
Every firmware of every platform, windows, Mack, I Devices, they all
experience bugs.
We're not the only one with problems with IOS Seven. My friend for example,
she's sighted, and her camera has went nuts after getting IOS Seven put on
her phone and, so I'm going to try and fix her phone for her when she comes
down, I think it's something she turned off or on but the thing is so blurry
now.  Gives me a chance to see her again anyway  Anyway I must
say, I love IOS seven, and I got an IPhone now yay! I upgraded from an IPod
Touch 4th gen, to an IPhone. I love it, it's only got 8 gigs but heck, it's
good enough for me.
Lol Especially now with the new I Tunes Radio feature.
Jerry Mader

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:53 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

Pablo,

I just don't understand some of the complaints. I don't see a difference in
the location of the End button when I'm on a phone call, it's still right
there at the bottom of the screen.
Then there are little things like Voiceover saying Screene Locked a second
time, I mean, really, so what.

What about all the improvements? All some people do is complain but they
forget to recognize the good things.
What about the handwriting feature which is awesome for quickly finding
apps?
What about SIRI which works better now than ever?
What about the new 2-finger quadruple tap to copy the last spoken text which
I use quite often and find great?
What about Facetime Audio, I think it's awesome.
What about little fixes like Voiceovover not losing focus when I am in email
53 of my Inbox and back out where it now stays on email 53 instead of going
back to email 1? This, by the way, I remember you complained about bitterly
when iOS 6 was released and this was introduced.
What about the fantastic support for hearing aids, not something that is
mentioned that often on this list even though I know some Viphone members
have significant hearing loss and for them this is more revolutionary than
evolutionary.
These are just a few examples, some are general features and some are
accessibility related.

Pablo, I am not saying it's all peaches and cream, there are bugs, there
always were bugs and there always will be bugs.
In the meantime I love what I can do with my iPhone, the access to apps and
information it gives me.
I prefer to send the occasional email to the accessibility team if I am sure
I found something that truly doesn't work and which isn't working because I
am not paying attention because I know that Apple is committed to improving
accessibility even if apparently you feel it's worse than ever.
Maybe you should look for an iPhone 3GS running iOS 5 or iOS 6 on eBay so
you can have the experience you seem to be missing.


Happy tapping,
Sieghard

 
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Pablo Morales
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:41 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing
when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content
again to find where we were before V

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Anthony Vece]

Hi Pablo;

I have to agree here with the people who are telling you to give up your Apple 
products.
If I were as unhappy as you are for the last few months, I certainly would.

I had similar situations with the Droid.
The system was just not for me.

I hope you figure it out soon.

Anthony


Sent from my Verizon iPhone 5s!

> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:39 PM, Ron Pelletier  
> wrote:
> 
> Hey Pablo,
> 
> I have read your message very carefully and have not heard you mention a
> single thing that is good about Apple.  The first question that comes to my
> mind is: Why does the guy still have an Apple product if its that bad.  One
> thing you must admit about Apple is that it has a very good re-sale value.
> Have you considered taking advantage of that?  You say the price is very
> high on Apple, you could sell your Apple, buy an Android and probably have
> some money left over.  Now, what do you think about that!
> 
> Ron & Danvers 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Pablo Morales
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> Nope. I don't agree it.
> Apple sales their toys at a very high price. As I said before, and iPhone
> today is more money that the money that the most part of the people on the
> world makes in one year. What does that mean for me?
> If they are charging a very high price for their toys, they should offer
> good toys, and do not be hide behind the excuse that every IOs or every
> operated system, has bugs, it is a really poor excuse. Why it is a very poor
> excuse?
> Every year apple start saying that they have a new IOs, it is the better
> IOs, it is the more advance operated system  in the galaxy, no body on the
> world, and around the world has a better operated system, and at the same
> time, they say that they will not provide more support to devices who
> doesn't have install IOs 7. So is mandatory has IOs 7 installed.
> Now, every year, apple create a new IOs, and every creation brings bugs,
> problems, and bunches of things that are real problems for sighted and blind
> people. We have more than one month talking about it in the list. Apple
> doesn't learn of the previous experiences?
> Apple is not paying attention to the mistakes that they did before?
> Apple is giving job to new developers every year and giving lay off to the
> older developers, because every year, customers, sighted and blind, we have
> to be suffering the bugs of new operated systems, and when we come to the
> end of the year, we do not have every bug fixed, no, it never is cover, but
> we have to update to a new operated system, and start again.
> In my opinion, the fault here is in our side. Apple is doing what the people
> wants. Apple is hearing people saying that, oh, no, every operated system
> has bugs, oh, no, it worse with the last IOs, instead heard people saying,
> hey apple, we do not accept it, and we are not going to update our devices
> until you do a better job. Every year, the bugs are worse and worse. Do you
> remember IOs 5?
> It has bugs, of course, but do you remember when came IOs6?
> It has more bugs than IOs 5, and now Ios 7  has more than Ios 6.
> So every year we are worse.
> But we have people saying that, oh, no, every Operated system has bugs.
> So apple is doing what the customers wants.
> 
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> 
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> 
> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting
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> 
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> 
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>

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[simon wong]

I don't see why when you guys report a bug or flaw in their system of the phone 
while you're doing it to the list why don't you CC a copy to the Apple people

Sent from my iPhone

On 2013-11-11, at 1:53 PM, "Christopher Chaltain"  wrote:

> I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be careful 
> here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and 
> something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. Accessibility 
> is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we should be positive and 
> cooperative when someone is working towards accessibility, but we shouldn't 
> just accept whatever comes our way. For example, We shouldn't settle for 
> Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop pressing Microsoft for 
> greater access to Windows Phone 8 just because they were kind enough to toss 
> us this accessible scrap.
> 
> It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. People 
> should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. There may be 
> cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and one person's 
> reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't think accusations 
> of whining and complaining should keep people from mentioning perceived bugs 
> and issues they're having with IOS. I too get frustrated with what I see as 
> people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say where that line should be drawn, 
> and I think we should be careful when we chastise someone for being spoiled 
> and whining. Like I said, we want people talking about the issues they're 
> having with their iPhones because as good as the Iphone is, it could still be 
> better and it could definitely get worse if Apple feels it has to redirect 
> resources away from accessibility and towards other critical projects.
> 
> On 11/11/2013 02:04 AM, BBS wrote:
>> John and Sieghard, I agree with you guys completely. Like it says in my 
>> Skype mood message, some blind people are so spoiled. And it’s true, because 
>> look at this thread. We should be lucky that Apple is giving us a pretty 
>> good screen reader. I’m just tired of reading threads about people bitching 
>> and complaining about Apple not living up to their standards. Even on the 
>> Mac list we have people demanding that Apple do this and do that to make 
>> Voiceover live up to their standards. I’m tired of this. I think if I find 
>> another post about this thread, I’m gonna hit the delete button because that 
>> is my friend of course. I’ll just end off by saying if you don’t like Apple, 
>> sell your Mac and your iPhone and go to Windows and Android. Now that my 
>> rant’s over, Regina, I have an iPhone 4S and I’m not experiencing any wifi 
>> issues.
>> 
>> Shawn
>> Sent From My White Mac Book
>> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:17 PM, John Diakogeorgiou  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I think that Sieghard
>>> put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
>>> their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
>>> with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
>>> vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
>>> well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
>>> At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
>>> version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
>>> phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
>>> upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
>>> ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
>>> a few short years ago.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:
 Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.
 
 The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in
 Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
 struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have 
 quite
 a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
 appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the
 form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
 screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
 there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried. 
 Physically
 find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual
 display. Split-tap with another finger and the edit box is locked in with
 the keyboard. Because of rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to
 then flick to the next edit field. In this case, locate the done button
 above the o and p letters on the keyboard and double-tap it. This releases
 the edit field and one can now locate the next edit field. Follow the same
 procedure. When finished with the form, locate the continue, submit, or
 otherly worded button

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

To add to David's description, if you have a Bluetooth keyboard connected
the 2-finger double tap to start dictation only works if the virtual
keyboard is visible.

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:21 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

This is a new feature started with iOS 7. If you are in and edit field, and
the edit field is active, you can do a two finger double tap to start
dictation.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 13 Nov 2013, at 12:46, Joanne Chua  wrote:
> 
> I never know 2 finger double tap will start dictation. i always thought,
and do so, that two finger double tap will play music, unless you are on
specific apps like facebook, that will give you different actions.
> 
> 
> Joanne Chua
> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
> Send from my iPad
> 
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 23:18, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a
call with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten
better in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for
years have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100%
user error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some
unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start
dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no
way this can be user error.  lol.
>> 
>> JMO.
>> 
>> Ricardo Walker
>> rica...@appletothecore.info
>> Twitter:@apple2thecore
>> www.appletothecore.info
>> 
>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden 
wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were
quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap,
with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it
does not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the
gesture was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's
responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures
properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help each
of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.
>>> 
>>> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the
gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and
entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the
gestures.
>>> 
>>> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how
many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's
fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly
performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible
consumer, regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report.
However, when it is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you
have 75%  of the chance with the case, and each of these user errors and
faults got to report to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose
to do their own thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for
the future software and hardware.
>>>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new
platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be
the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>>>> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get
instead of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this
and that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
>>>> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and
friends phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now,
since i use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i
should write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of
saving phone numbers and contact details. 
>>>> 
>>>> Joanne Chua
>>>> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
>>>> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate Send from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain 
wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think this

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

This is a new feature started with iOS 7. If you are in and edit field, and the 
edit field is active, you can do a two finger double tap to start dictation.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 13 Nov 2013, at 12:46, Joanne Chua  wrote:
> 
> I never know 2 finger double tap will start dictation. i always thought, and 
> do so, that two finger double tap will play music, unless you are on specific 
> apps like facebook, that will give you different actions.
> 
> 
> Joanne Chua
> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
> Send from my iPad
> 
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 23:18, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’m not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call 
>> with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better 
>> in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years 
>> have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user 
>> error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some 
>> unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start 
>> dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no 
>> way this can be user error.  lol.
>> 
>> JMO.
>> 
>> Ricardo Walker
>> rica...@appletothecore.info
>> Twitter:@apple2thecore
>> www.appletothecore.info
>> 
>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were 
>>> quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap, 
>>> with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it 
>>> does not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the 
>>> gesture was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's 
>>> responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures 
>>> properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help 
>>> each of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.
>>> 
>>> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the 
>>> gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and 
>>> entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the 
>>> gestures.
>>> 
>>> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how 
>>> many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's 
>>> fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly 
>>> performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
 
 Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
 regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when 
 it is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of 
 the chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to 
 report to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their 
 own thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the 
 future software and hardware.
 I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
 platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not 
 be the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
 The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead 
 of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and 
 that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
 You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and 
 friends phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now, 
 since i use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe 
 i should write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability 
 of saving phone numbers and contact details. 
 
 Joanne Chua
 The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
 Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
 Send from my iPad
 
> On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> 
> I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be 
> careful here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity 
> and something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. 
> Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we 
> should be positive and cooperative when someone is working towards 
> accessibility, but we shouldn't just accept whatever comes our way. For 
> example, We shouldn't settle for Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 
> and stop pressing Microsoft for greater access to Windows Phone 8 just 
> because they were kind enough to toss us this accessible scrap

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

This feature was introduced in IOS 7. If your currently editing an edit 
field then a two finger double tap should start dictation.


On 11/12/2013 05:46 PM, Joanne Chua wrote:

I never know 2 finger double tap will start dictation. i always thought, and do 
so, that two finger double tap will play music, unless you are on specific apps 
like facebook, that will give you different actions.


Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad


On 12 Nov 2013, at 23:18, Ricardo Walker  wrote:

Hi,

I’m not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call 
with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better in 
the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years have 
experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user error.  And 
overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some unexpected results. 
 For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start dictation and my audible book 
starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no way this can be user error.  lol.

JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info


On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:

Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were quite 
obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap, with the 
fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it does not end 
the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the gesture was 
performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's responsibility to 
become fully proficient at performing the gestures properly. Apple has a 
specific practice area set up exclusively to help each of us learn, and 
perfect, our gestures.

It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the gesture 
properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and entirely on the 
shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the gestures.

Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how many 
times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's fault that I 
am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly performing gestures is 
exactly and precisely the same thing!

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:

Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when it is 
clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the chance 
with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to report to the 
provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their own thing, or 
provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future software and 
hardware.
I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be the 
same compare to your old Nokia phone.
The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead of 
keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and that, and 
how Voiceover do this and that.
You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and friends 
phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now, since i use 
iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i should write 
to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of saving phone 
numbers and contact details.

Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad


On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:

I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be careful 
here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and something 
we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. Accessibility is a right 
that we should be demanding. Of course, we should be positive and cooperative 
when someone is working towards accessibility, but we shouldn't just accept 
whatever comes our way. For example, We shouldn't settle for Mobile 
Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop pressing Microsoft for greater access 
to Windows Phone 8 just because they were kind enough to toss us this 
accessible scrap.

It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. People 
should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. There may be 
cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and one person's 
reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't think accusations of 
whining and complaining should keep people from mentioning perceived bugs and 
issues they're having with IOS. I too get frustrated with what I see as 
people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say where that l

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Larry Lumpkin]

This thread has been hijacked.


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ron Pelletier
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:48 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hi Kelly,

I had the problem with the two-finger tap to start dictation.  It was simply
that my blue tooth keyboard was on and consequently the virtual keyboard was
not showing so there was no dictation button.  Evidently, if the dictation
button is not showing on the screen, the 2-finger tap starts the music
rather than dictation.  Once I got that, I never had a problem since.  I
have to admit that, once, I was wondering what I was doing wrong and
realized I had not double-tapped with one finger first to activate the text
box.  That is   the solution to that problem but, there is also the fact
that the screen is more sensitive in IOS 7.  They did reduce the sensitivity
in 7.0.03 but it is still a more sensitive screen than it was in IOS 6.  In
such case, we have to be more accurate with gestures.  It does require some
practice.  After all, Apple can't feed us everything with a spoon.  They are
doing their big share but we have to do the rest.

Ron & Danvers


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kellie and my lab pack
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:46 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Neither my husband or myself had had any challenges in ending a phone call. 
For us, the hang up gesture works the same as always. The same goes for
double tapping to enter into dictation. You will want to make sure that you
are in the edit field so that editing is enabled. If not, maybe that is why
some people are getting music to play instead of dictation? Not sure but
trying to think of reasons why some would be encountering this difficulty.
Kellie, Guide Loki and retired July

-Original Message-
From: Ricardo Walker
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:48 AM
To: viphone
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hi,

I'm not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call
with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better
in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years
have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user
error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some
unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start
dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no
way this can be user error.  lol.

JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden 
wrote:

> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread 
> were quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger 
> double tap, with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends 
> phone calls. If it does not end the phone call, this is always and 
> exclusively because the gesture was performed incorrectly. It is 
> solely and completely the user's responsibility to become fully 
> proficient at performing the gestures properly. Apple has a specific 
> practice area set up exclusively to help each of us learn, and 
> perfect,
our gestures.
>
> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the 
> gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely 
> and entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly 
> learned the gestures.
>
> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter 
> how many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it 
> Microsoft's fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c?
> Properly performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>>
>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible 
>> consumer, regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report.
>> However, when it is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, 
>> you have 75%  of the chance with the case, and each of these user 
>> errors and faults got to report to the provider, i bet, soon or 
>> later, Apple can choose to do their own thing, or provide the lease 
>> accessibility tthat they can for the future software and hardware.
>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the 
>> new platform, and they also should have the expectation that things 
>> will not be the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>>

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ron Pelletier]

Hi Kelly,

I had the problem with the two-finger tap to start dictation.  It was simply
that my blue tooth keyboard was on and consequently the virtual keyboard was
not showing so there was no dictation button.  Evidently, if the dictation
button is not showing on the screen, the 2-finger tap starts the music
rather than dictation.  Once I got that, I never had a problem since.  I
have to admit that, once, I was wondering what I was doing wrong and
realized I had not double-tapped with one finger first to activate the text
box.  That is   the solution to that problem but, there is also the fact
that the screen is more sensitive in IOS 7.  They did reduce the sensitivity
in 7.0.03 but it is still a more sensitive screen than it was in IOS 6.  In
such case, we have to be more accurate with gestures.  It does require some
practice.  After all, Apple can't feed us everything with a spoon.  They are
doing their big share but we have to do the rest.

Ron & Danvers


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kellie and my lab pack
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:46 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Neither my husband or myself had had any challenges in ending a phone call. 
For us, the hang up gesture works the same as always. The same goes for
double tapping to enter into dictation. You will want to make sure that you
are in the edit field so that editing is enabled. If not, maybe that is why
some people are getting music to play instead of dictation? Not sure but
trying to think of reasons why some would be encountering this difficulty.
Kellie, Guide Loki and retired July

-Original Message-
From: Ricardo Walker
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:48 AM
To: viphone
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hi,

I'm not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call
with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better
in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years
have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user
error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some
unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start
dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no
way this can be user error.  lol.

JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden 
wrote:

> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread 
> were quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger 
> double tap, with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends 
> phone calls. If it does not end the phone call, this is always and 
> exclusively because the gesture was performed incorrectly. It is 
> solely and completely the user's responsibility to become fully 
> proficient at performing the gestures properly. Apple has a specific 
> practice area set up exclusively to help each of us learn, and perfect,
our gestures.
>
> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the 
> gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely 
> and entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly 
> learned the gestures.
>
> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter 
> how many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it 
> Microsoft's fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? 
> Properly performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>>
>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible 
>> consumer, regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. 
>> However, when it is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, 
>> you have 75%  of the chance with the case, and each of these user 
>> errors and faults got to report to the provider, i bet, soon or 
>> later, Apple can choose to do their own thing, or provide the lease 
>> accessibility tthat they can for the future software and hardware.
>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the 
>> new platform, and they also should have the expectation that things 
>> will not be the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get 
>> instead of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks 
>> do this and that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
>> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my fa

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Joanne Chua]

I never know 2 finger double tap will start dictation. i always thought, and do 
so, that two finger double tap will play music, unless you are on specific apps 
like facebook, that will give you different actions.


Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad

> On 12 Nov 2013, at 23:18, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’m not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call 
> with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better 
> in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years 
> have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user 
> error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some 
> unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start 
> dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no way 
> this can be user error.  lol.
> 
> JMO.
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were 
>> quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap, 
>> with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it 
>> does not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the 
>> gesture was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's 
>> responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures 
>> properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help each 
>> of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.
>> 
>> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the gesture 
>> properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and entirely on 
>> the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the gestures.
>> 
>> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how 
>> many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's 
>> fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly 
>> performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
>>> regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when 
>>> it is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the 
>>> chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to 
>>> report to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their 
>>> own thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future 
>>> software and hardware.
>>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
>>> platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be 
>>> the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>>> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead 
>>> of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and 
>>> that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
>>> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and friends 
>>> phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now, since i 
>>> use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i should 
>>> write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of saving 
>>> phone numbers and contact details. 
>>> 
>>> Joanne Chua
>>> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
>>> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
>>> Send from my iPad
>>> 
 On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
 
 I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be 
 careful here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity 
 and something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. 
 Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we should 
 be positive and cooperative when someone is working towards accessibility, 
 but we shouldn't just accept whatever comes our way. For example, We 
 shouldn't settle for Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop 
 pressing Microsoft for greater access to Windows Phone 8 just because they 
 were kind enough to toss us this accessible scrap.
 
 It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. 
 People should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. 
 There may be cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and 
 one person's reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't 
 think accusations of whining and complaining should keep people from 
 mentioning perceived bugs an

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Kellie and my lab pack]

Neither my husband or myself had had any challenges in ending a phone call. 
For us, the hang up gesture works the same as always. The same goes for 
double tapping to enter into dictation. You will want to make sure that you 
are in the edit field so that editing is enabled. If not, maybe that is why 
some people are getting music to play instead of dictation? Not sure but 
trying to think of reasons why some would be encountering this difficulty.

Kellie, Guide Loki and retired July

-Original Message- 
From: Ricardo Walker

Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:48 AM
To: viphone
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hi,

I’m not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call 
with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better 
in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years 
have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user 
error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some 
unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start 
dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no 
way this can be user error.  lol.


JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden  
wrote:


Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were 
quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap, 
with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If 
it does not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the 
gesture was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's 
responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures 
properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help 
each of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.


It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the 
gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and 
entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the 
gestures.


Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how 
many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's 
fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly 
performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:

Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when 
it is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of 
the chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to 
report to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do 
their own thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for 
the future software and hardware.
I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not 
be the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead 
of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and 
that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and 
friends phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But 
now, since i use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. 
Maybe i should write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the 
capability of saving phone numbers and contact details.


Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad

On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  
wrote:


I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be 
careful here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity 
and something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. 
Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we 
should be positive and cooperative when someone is working towards 
accessibility, but we shouldn't just accept whatever comes our way. For 
example, We shouldn't settle for Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 
and stop pressing Microsoft for greater access to Windows Phone 8 just 
because they were kind enough to toss us this accessible scrap.


It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. 
People should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. 
There may be cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and 
one person's reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't 
think accusations of whining and complaining should

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ricardo Walker]

Yup,

But I have no bt keyboard connected to my phone, and I don’t even have 
bluetooth turned on.  And the virtual keyboard was on screen during all 
instances this behavior occurred.  To be fair, it’s only happened maybe 3 or 4 
times.  Generally, closing the music or audible app fixes the issue.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 12, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:

> Hi Richard,
> 
> This typically only happens if the virtual keyboard is not on the screen or
> if the app you are trying to Dictate in doesn't support the 2-finger gesture
> for this. I experience the same if I am, for example, in the Messages app
> and want to Dictate a text message and my Bluetooth keyboard is connected,
> it only works if I show the virtual keyboard and the Dictate button is
> visible on the screen. This is something I have been meaning to write to
> Apple about. I still also think that in general there should be a way to
> make the virtual keyboard visible from the phone. Right now I have to go to
> my Apple Wireless keyboard and press the top right button so if I am
> elsewhere in the house it's annoying. I can, of course, bring up control
> centre and turn Bluetooth off and that will also do it, but it still would
> be nice if there was a button on the screen which would show the keyboard.
> 
> Regards,
> Sieghard
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Ricardo Walker
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 4:48 AM
> To: viphone
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call
> with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better
> in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years
> have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user
> error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some
> unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start
> dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no
> way this can be user error.  lol.
> 
> JMO.
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden 
> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were
> quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap,
> with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it
> does not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the
> gesture was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's
> responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures
> properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help each
> of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.
>> 
>> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the
> gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and
> entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the
> gestures.
>> 
>> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how
> many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's
> fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly
> performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer,
> regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when it
> is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the
> chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to report
> to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their own
> thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future
> software and hardware.
>>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new
> platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be
> the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>>> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead
> of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and
> that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
>>> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and
> friends phone number

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hi Richard,

This typically only happens if the virtual keyboard is not on the screen or
if the app you are trying to Dictate in doesn't support the 2-finger gesture
for this. I experience the same if I am, for example, in the Messages app
and want to Dictate a text message and my Bluetooth keyboard is connected,
it only works if I show the virtual keyboard and the Dictate button is
visible on the screen. This is something I have been meaning to write to
Apple about. I still also think that in general there should be a way to
make the virtual keyboard visible from the phone. Right now I have to go to
my Apple Wireless keyboard and press the top right button so if I am
elsewhere in the house it's annoying. I can, of course, bring up control
centre and turn Bluetooth off and that will also do it, but it still would
be nice if there was a button on the screen which would show the keyboard.

Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ricardo Walker
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 4:48 AM
To: viphone
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hi,

I'm not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call
with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better
in the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years
have experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user
error.  And overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some
unexpected results.  For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start
dictation and my audible book starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no
way this can be user error.  lol.

JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden 
wrote:

> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were
quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap,
with the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it
does not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the
gesture was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's
responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures
properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help each
of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.
> 
> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the
gesture properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and
entirely on the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the
gestures.
> 
> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how
many times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's
fault that I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly
performing gestures is exactly and precisely the same thing!
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>> 
>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer,
regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when it
is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the
chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to report
to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their own
thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future
software and hardware.
>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new
platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be
the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead
of keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and
that, and how Voiceover do this and that.
>> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and
friends phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now,
since i use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i
should write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of
saving phone numbers and contact details. 
>> 
>> Joanne Chua
>> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
>> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
>> Send from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain 
wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be
careful here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and
something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it.
Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we should
be positive and cooperative when someone is working to

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Rose Combs]

I have a 4S and no wifi problems.  


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Regina Alvarado
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:41 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

'I will jump in here. I have found very little in 703 that I truly have a
problem with, but if Appple really knew about the wifi issue om 4s and 4,
that is by far the worst bug of them all Any other bug there ways to get
around them, but to not tell people with 4s not to upgrade was
unconcionable. I still would rather have Apple with their accessibility than
need to buy my voice and maybe or maybe not have it work. Better watch how
much you complain Pablo. Apple could decide we are too small a community to
worry about! My problem has noathing to do with accessibility. All in all VO
works well, and they keep improving it as we go along.


reggie and Allegra

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:27 AM, "Pablo Morales" 
wrote:

If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you
say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products.
Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I
pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the
accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO?
There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well,
some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does
not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it
seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean
they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from
any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they
fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues.
That's true of all software anywhere.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to
hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap
doesn't always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try
will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links,
flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking
you if you want to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not
a bug.  If you don't like the way its now done that's one thing.  But it
isn't broken.
> 
> Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse
for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have
very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it
first launched?  I'm sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at
launch.  There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0
release.  Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what's
what?  And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was
running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the accessible
apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want
to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an operating system that no longer
being supported, that's fine.  But, anyone can do that.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales 
wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every
time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility
problems every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs
experiences, they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become the
accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, I am
getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the response
that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor excuse,
because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to access
information with my apple devices.
>> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not
more support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have to
be suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to the
end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: 
>> To: "ViPhone" 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

I’m not sure about this.  In IOS 7, it is certainly harder to hang up a call 
with a 2 finger double tap on the first try.  It seems to have gotten better in 
the minor releases but, enough people who have been using IOS for years have 
experienced the same behavior to not just write it off as 100% user error.  And 
overall, the 2 finger double tap has at times produced some unexpected results. 
 For example, I do a 2 finger double tap to start dictation and my audible book 
starts playing.  Or music.  Now there is no way this can be user error.  lol.

JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:41 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:

> Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were 
> quite obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap, with 
> the fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it does 
> not end the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the gesture 
> was performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's 
> responsibility to become fully proficient at performing the gestures 
> properly. Apple has a specific practice area set up exclusively to help each 
> of us learn, and perfect, our gestures.
> 
> It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the gesture 
> properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and entirely on 
> the shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the gestures.
> 
> Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how many 
> times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's fault that 
> I am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly performing gestures 
> is exactly and precisely the same thing!
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
>> 
>> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
>> regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when it 
>> is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the 
>> chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to report 
>> to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their own 
>> thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future 
>> software and hardware.
>> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
>> platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be 
>> the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
>> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead of 
>> keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and that, 
>> and how Voiceover do this and that.
>> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and friends 
>> phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now, since i 
>> use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i should 
>> write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of saving 
>> phone numbers and contact details. 
>> 
>> Joanne Chua
>> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
>> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
>> Send from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be careful 
>>> here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and 
>>> something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. 
>>> Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we should 
>>> be positive and cooperative when someone is working towards accessibility, 
>>> but we shouldn't just accept whatever comes our way. For example, We 
>>> shouldn't settle for Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop 
>>> pressing Microsoft for greater access to Windows Phone 8 just because they 
>>> were kind enough to toss us this accessible scrap.
>>> 
>>> It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. People 
>>> should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. There may 
>>> be cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and one person's 
>>> reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't think accusations 
>>> of whining and complaining should keep people from mentioning perceived 
>>> bugs and issues they're having with IOS. I too get frustrated with what I 
>>> see as people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say where that line should be 
>>> drawn, and I think we should be careful when we chastise someone for being 
>>> spoiled and whining. Like I said, we want people talking about the issues 
>>> they're having with their iPhones because as good as the Iphone is, it 
>>> could still be better and it could definitely get worse if Apple feels it 
>>> has to redirect resourc

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

Yes, the initial complaints from the venting message in this thread were quite 
obviously user error, not errors in the OS. Two-finger double tap, with the 
fingers slightly spread always answers and ends phone calls. If it does not end 
the phone call, this is always and exclusively because the gesture was 
performed incorrectly. It is solely and completely the user's responsibility to 
become fully proficient at performing the gestures properly. Apple has a 
specific practice area set up exclusively to help each of us learn, and 
perfect, our gestures.

It is not Apple's fault or responsibility when we do not perform the gesture 
properly. The fault / blame / responsibility falls squarely and entirely on the 
shoulders of the person who has not properly learned the gestures.

Consider it this way. I cannot get Windows to copy a file. No matter how many 
times I press control d, the file will not copy. Is it Microsoft's fault that I 
am pressing control d rather than control c? Properly performing gestures is 
exactly and precisely the same thing!

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:06, Joanne Chua  wrote:
> 
> Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
> regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when it 
> is clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the 
> chance with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to report 
> to the provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their own 
> thing, or provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future 
> software and hardware.
> I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
> platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be 
> the same compare to your old Nokia phone.
> The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead of 
> keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and that, 
> and how Voiceover do this and that.
> You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and friends 
> phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now, since i 
> use iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i should 
> write to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of saving 
> phone numbers and contact details. 
> 
> Joanne Chua
> The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
> Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
> Send from my iPad
> 
>> On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>> 
>> I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be careful 
>> here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and 
>> something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. 
>> Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we should 
>> be positive and cooperative when someone is working towards accessibility, 
>> but we shouldn't just accept whatever comes our way. For example, We 
>> shouldn't settle for Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop 
>> pressing Microsoft for greater access to Windows Phone 8 just because they 
>> were kind enough to toss us this accessible scrap.
>> 
>> It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. People 
>> should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. There may 
>> be cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and one person's 
>> reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't think accusations 
>> of whining and complaining should keep people from mentioning perceived bugs 
>> and issues they're having with IOS. I too get frustrated with what I see as 
>> people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say where that line should be drawn, 
>> and I think we should be careful when we chastise someone for being spoiled 
>> and whining. Like I said, we want people talking about the issues they're 
>> having with their iPhones because as good as the Iphone is, it could still 
>> be better and it could definitely get worse if Apple feels it has to 
>> redirect resources away from accessibility and towards other critical 
>> projects.
>> 
>>> On 11/11/2013 02:04 AM, BBS wrote:
>>> John and Sieghard, I agree with you guys completely. Like it says in my 
>>> Skype mood message, some blind people are so spoiled. And it’s true, 
>>> because look at this thread. We should be lucky that Apple is giving us a 
>>> pretty good screen reader. I’m just tired of reading threads about people 
>>> bitching and complaining about Apple not living up to their standards. Even 
>>> on the Mac list we have people demanding that Apple do this and do that to 
>>> make Voiceover live up to their standards. I’m tired of this. I think if I 
>>> find another post about this thread, I’m gonna hit the delete button 
>>> because that is my friend of course. I’ll just end off by saying if you 
>

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ron Pelletier]

Hey Pablo,

I have read your message very carefully and have not heard you mention a
single thing that is good about Apple.  The first question that comes to my
mind is: Why does the guy still have an Apple product if its that bad.  One
thing you must admit about Apple is that it has a very good re-sale value.
Have you considered taking advantage of that?  You say the price is very
high on Apple, you could sell your Apple, buy an Android and probably have
some money left over.  Now, what do you think about that!

Ron & Danvers 

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Pablo Morales
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Nope. I don't agree it.
Apple sales their toys at a very high price. As I said before, and iPhone
today is more money that the money that the most part of the people on the
world makes in one year. What does that mean for me?
If they are charging a very high price for their toys, they should offer
good toys, and do not be hide behind the excuse that every IOs or every
operated system, has bugs, it is a really poor excuse. Why it is a very poor
excuse?
Every year apple start saying that they have a new IOs, it is the better
IOs, it is the more advance operated system  in the galaxy, no body on the
world, and around the world has a better operated system, and at the same
time, they say that they will not provide more support to devices who
doesn't have install IOs 7. So is mandatory has IOs 7 installed.
Now, every year, apple create a new IOs, and every creation brings bugs,
problems, and bunches of things that are real problems for sighted and blind
people. We have more than one month talking about it in the list. Apple
doesn't learn of the previous experiences?
Apple is not paying attention to the mistakes that they did before?
Apple is giving job to new developers every year and giving lay off to the
older developers, because every year, customers, sighted and blind, we have
to be suffering the bugs of new operated systems, and when we come to the
end of the year, we do not have every bug fixed, no, it never is cover, but
we have to update to a new operated system, and start again.
In my opinion, the fault here is in our side. Apple is doing what the people
wants. Apple is hearing people saying that, oh, no, every operated system
has bugs, oh, no, it worse with the last IOs, instead heard people saying,
hey apple, we do not accept it, and we are not going to update our devices
until you do a better job. Every year, the bugs are worse and worse. Do you
remember IOs 5?
It has bugs, of course, but do you remember when came IOs6?
It has more bugs than IOs 5, and now Ios 7  has more than Ios 6.
So every year we are worse.
But we have people saying that, oh, no, every Operated system has bugs.
So apple is doing what the customers wants.

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RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ron Pelletier]

Hello,

May I suggest that you send all these comments to:  accessibil...@apple.com 
I know venting is a great relief for your frustration but, venting in the
right place will help a lot more.

Ron & Danvers


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of sen...@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:41 AM
To: ViPhone
Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?

This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
7 that were not in IOS6. 
It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are
compromised. 
1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
on my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
Nokia better. 
3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions
will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us.
Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually
challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With
IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald
world populated with buggy iphones!  

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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Joanne Chua]

Sure, if there is accessibility bug we, as any of a responsible consumer, 
regardless either we are blind or not blind, should report. However, when it is 
clearly the user fault, which, frankly speaking, you have 75%  of the chance 
with the case, and each of these user errors and faults got to report to the 
provider, i bet, soon or later, Apple can choose to do their own thing, or 
provide the lease accessibility tthat they can for the future software and 
hardware.
I think, for new user, they need to realize that they deal with the new 
platform, and they also should have the expectation that things will not be the 
same compare to your old Nokia phone.
The sooner they realize this, the better experience they will get instead of 
keep having the batel against themselves as to how Talks do this and that, and 
how Voiceover do this and that.
You know, back in the old days, i can remember 90% of my family and friends 
phone numbers, i used to be call as a walking phone book. But now, since i use 
iPhone, i can't recall my phone number half of the time. Maybe i should write 
to Apple for that, and asking them to stop the capability of saving phone 
numbers and contact details. 

Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad

> On 12 Nov 2013, at 5:23, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> 
> I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be careful 
> here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity and 
> something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. Accessibility 
> is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we should be positive and 
> cooperative when someone is working towards accessibility, but we shouldn't 
> just accept whatever comes our way. For example, We shouldn't settle for 
> Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 and stop pressing Microsoft for 
> greater access to Windows Phone 8 just because they were kind enough to toss 
> us this accessible scrap.
> 
> It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. People 
> should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. There may be 
> cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and one person's 
> reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't think accusations 
> of whining and complaining should keep people from mentioning perceived bugs 
> and issues they're having with IOS. I too get frustrated with what I see as 
> people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say where that line should be drawn, 
> and I think we should be careful when we chastise someone for being spoiled 
> and whining. Like I said, we want people talking about the issues they're 
> having with their iPhones because as good as the Iphone is, it could still be 
> better and it could definitely get worse if Apple feels it has to redirect 
> resources away from accessibility and towards other critical projects.
> 
>> On 11/11/2013 02:04 AM, BBS wrote:
>> John and Sieghard, I agree with you guys completely. Like it says in my 
>> Skype mood message, some blind people are so spoiled. And it’s true, because 
>> look at this thread. We should be lucky that Apple is giving us a pretty 
>> good screen reader. I’m just tired of reading threads about people bitching 
>> and complaining about Apple not living up to their standards. Even on the 
>> Mac list we have people demanding that Apple do this and do that to make 
>> Voiceover live up to their standards. I’m tired of this. I think if I find 
>> another post about this thread, I’m gonna hit the delete button because that 
>> is my friend of course. I’ll just end off by saying if you don’t like Apple, 
>> sell your Mac and your iPhone and go to Windows and Android. Now that my 
>> rant’s over, Regina, I have an iPhone 4S and I’m not experiencing any wifi 
>> issues.
>> 
>> Shawn
>> Sent From My White Mac Book
>> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:17 PM, John Diakogeorgiou  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think that Sieghard
>>> put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
>>> their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
>>> with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
>>> vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
>>> well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
>>> At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
>>> version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
>>> phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
>>> upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
>>> ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
>>> a few short years ago.
>>> 
>>> 
 On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:
 Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.
 
 The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in
 Safari when 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

I don't think this is what you're saying, but I think we need to be 
careful here. Accessibility isn't something that were given as a charity 
and something we should feel grateful for when someone provides it. 
Accessibility is a right that we should be demanding. Of course, we 
should be positive and cooperative when someone is working towards 
accessibility, but we shouldn't just accept whatever comes our way. For 
example, We shouldn't settle for Mobile Accessibility on Windows Phone 8 
and stop pressing Microsoft for greater access to Windows Phone 8 just 
because they were kind enough to toss us this accessible scrap.


It's also a fact that there are accessibility related bugs in IOS 7. 
People should be bringing these up on list and reporting them to Apple. 
There may be cases when one person's bug is another person's feature and 
one person's reporting of an issue is whining to someone else. I don't 
think accusations of whining and complaining should keep people from 
mentioning perceived bugs and issues they're having with IOS. I too get 
frustrated with what I see as people's whining, but I'm hesitant to say 
where that line should be drawn, and I think we should be careful when 
we chastise someone for being spoiled and whining. Like I said, we want 
people talking about the issues they're having with their iPhones 
because as good as the Iphone is, it could still be better and it could 
definitely get worse if Apple feels it has to redirect resources away 
from accessibility and towards other critical projects.


On 11/11/2013 02:04 AM, BBS wrote:

John and Sieghard, I agree with you guys completely. Like it says in my Skype 
mood message, some blind people are so spoiled. And it’s true, because look at 
this thread. We should be lucky that Apple is giving us a pretty good screen 
reader. I’m just tired of reading threads about people bitching and complaining 
about Apple not living up to their standards. Even on the Mac list we have 
people demanding that Apple do this and do that to make Voiceover live up to 
their standards. I’m tired of this. I think if I find another post about this 
thread, I’m gonna hit the delete button because that is my friend of course. 
I’ll just end off by saying if you don’t like Apple, sell your Mac and your 
iPhone and go to Windows and Android. Now that my rant’s over, Regina, I have 
an iPhone 4S and I’m not experiencing any wifi issues.

Shawn
Sent From My White Mac Book

On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:17 PM, John Diakogeorgiou  wrote:


I think that Sieghard
put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
a few short years ago.


On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:

Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.

The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in
Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite
a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the
form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried. Physically
find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual
display. Split-tap with another finger and the edit box is locked in with
the keyboard. Because of rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to
then flick to the next edit field. In this case, locate the done button
above the o and p letters on the keyboard and double-tap it. This releases
the edit field and one can now locate the next edit field. Follow the same
procedure. When finished with the form, locate the continue, submit, or
otherly worded button and split-tap it.

again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many
of these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not
impossible, for computer-based screen readers.

In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone using
the above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that Jaws
cannot access on Windows and IE 10.

As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows
Mobile phone and get the latest Mobi

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

In addition, this list is for us to help each other resolve problems we are 
having. So, writing to the list is implying you are having a problem with the 
technology, not implying you are merely venting your frustrations.

As to your iPhone not disconnecting, twice, this tells me you want to activate 
the practice area and practice your two-finger double tap. If your fingers are 
too close together, it is detected as one finger. A single-finger double tap is 
a very different command from a two-finger double tap.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 Nov 2013, at 7:29, Alex Hall  wrote:
> 
> Actually, it does help to say you are not experiencing a given problem. Not 
> only does this tell people what to expect if, say, they haven’t upgraded to 
> some new version, but it lets you know that maybe the problem is not in the 
> phone. For instance, when I first got my iPhone, Voiceover would always speak 
> notifications, and then do it again a few minutes later. I wrote to a list 
> about the problem, only to be told that it was not a bug at all, just a 
> couple settings I should adjust. Or, what about problems that only affect 
> certain models of devices? If people chime in as to whether or not they have 
> the problem, it lets us find common denominators, which can help Apple to 
> know where to look.
> 
> I can understand venting after a day of technology seeming to fail. However, 
> when people started pointing to your specific, mostly non-reproduceable 
> problems and saying that they are proof that Apple is horrible and all that, 
> then I have a problem.
>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 1:15 PM, AppleGourmet  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Guys! I was having a rough day. I had got a number of text messages with 
>> phone numbers that I had to call but could not courtesy Apple. Then I called 
>> my girl friend and thought had ended the call. She heard what I was talking 
>> with my buddy. So that was a mess. Then I made a long distance call and 
>> thought i had ended it. I had not! Got charged 38 dollars for it! Then I was 
>> trying to buy am airline ticket but could not fill the form completely, 
>> spent 25 minutes. At the end I had bought a ticket for the wrong day and 
>> wrong time. Worse. The ticket was non refundable. It was after all this that 
>> I started writing to the List. I was venting. I thought I would get some 
>> sympathy. Some suggestions. And instead what do I get? No compassion. Just 
>> some smart alecs saying that they never had the problem I had. Or that I 
>> should not complain. Man! 
>> Help reduce list traffic. If you cannot give help to  a fellow lister, then 
>> just stay mum. No neede to increase traffic by saying that you do not 
>> experience the problem. That does not help anyone. No need to sermonize. 
>> This list is for persons to share their problems and to get help. It is not 
>> to ridicule anyone. If you cannot help, stay quiet. Compassion, patience and 
>> understanding. This is not the wild west. No need to shoot the guy who does 
>> not agree with your views. Just ignore it, if you cannot help.
>> And a big THANK YOU to all those who understood me and let me vent :) love 
>> you guys :)   
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
>> Group.
>> 
>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> 
> 
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
> mehg...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Alex Hall]

Actually, it does help to say you are not experiencing a given problem. Not 
only does this tell people what to expect if, say, they haven’t upgraded to 
some new version, but it lets you know that maybe the problem is not in the 
phone. For instance, when I first got my iPhone, Voiceover would always speak 
notifications, and then do it again a few minutes later. I wrote to a list 
about the problem, only to be told that it was not a bug at all, just a couple 
settings I should adjust. Or, what about problems that only affect certain 
models of devices? If people chime in as to whether or not they have the 
problem, it lets us find common denominators, which can help Apple to know 
where to look.

I can understand venting after a day of technology seeming to fail. However, 
when people started pointing to your specific, mostly non-reproduceable 
problems and saying that they are proof that Apple is horrible and all that, 
then I have a problem.
On Nov 11, 2013, at 1:15 PM, AppleGourmet  wrote:

> Hey Guys! I was having a rough day. I had got a number of text messages with 
> phone numbers that I had to call but could not courtesy Apple. Then I called 
> my girl friend and thought had ended the call. She heard what I was talking 
> with my buddy. So that was a mess. Then I made a long distance call and 
> thought i had ended it. I had not! Got charged 38 dollars for it! Then I was 
> trying to buy am airline ticket but could not fill the form completely, spent 
> 25 minutes. At the end I had bought a ticket for the wrong day and wrong 
> time. Worse. The ticket was non refundable. It was after all this that I 
> started writing to the List. I was venting. I thought I would get some 
> sympathy. Some suggestions. And instead what do I get? No compassion. Just 
> some smart alecs saying that they never had the problem I had. Or that I 
> should not complain. Man! 
> Help reduce list traffic. If you cannot give help to  a fellow lister, then 
> just stay mum. No neede to increase traffic by saying that you do not 
> experience the problem. That does not help anyone. No need to sermonize. This 
> list is for persons to share their problems and to get help. It is not to 
> ridicule anyone. If you cannot help, stay quiet. Compassion, patience and 
> understanding. This is not the wild west. No need to shoot the guy who does 
> not agree with your views. Just ignore it, if you cannot help.
> And a big THANK YOU to all those who understood me and let me vent :) love 
> you guys :)   
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
> Group.
> 
> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
> 
> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> 
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> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com.
> 
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Have a great day,
Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
mehg...@gmail.com



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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[AppleGourmet]

Hey Guys! I was having a rough day. I had got a number of text messages with 
phone numbers that I had to call but could not courtesy Apple. Then I called my 
girl friend and thought had ended the call. She heard what I was talking with 
my buddy. So that was a mess. Then I made a long distance call and thought i 
had ended it. I had not! Got charged 38 dollars for it! Then I was trying to 
buy am airline ticket but could not fill the form completely, spent 25 minutes. 
At the end I had bought a ticket for the wrong day and wrong time. Worse. The 
ticket was non refundable. It was after all this that I started writing to the 
List. I was venting. I thought I would get some sympathy. Some suggestions. And 
instead what do I get? No compassion. Just some smart alecs saying that they 
never had the problem I had. Or that I should not complain. Man! 
Help reduce list traffic. If you cannot give help to  a fellow lister, then 
just stay mum. No neede to increase traffic by saying that you do not 
experience the problem. That does not help anyone. No need to sermonize. This 
list is for persons to share their problems and to get help. It is not to 
ridicule anyone. If you cannot help, stay quiet. Compassion, patience and 
understanding. This is not the wild west. No need to shoot the guy who does not 
agree with your views. Just ignore it, if you cannot help.
And a big THANK YOU to all those who understood me and let me vent :) love you 
guys :)   
 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
Group.

Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.

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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Carol Pearson]

s the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
>> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
>> seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
>> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
>> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
>> happening?
>> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
>> similar problems. it happened before?
>> No, it didn't!
>> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
>> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
>> break things that were working well before?
>> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
>> talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
>> not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not 
>> voice over user is getting?
>> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
>> right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
>> before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple 
>> is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about 
>> hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
>> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke 
>> things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in 
>> November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking 
>> about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are 
>> getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even 
>> though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we 
>> will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to 
>> restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but 
>> other never will be fix.
>> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not 
>> say the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am 
>> very interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
>> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
>> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
>> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
>> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
>> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
>> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
>> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>> 
>>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>> 
>>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>>> save it to contacts
>>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>>> 
>>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>>> genera

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

e getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
>> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
>> seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
>> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
>> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
>> happening?
>> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
>> similar problems. it happened before?
>> No, it didn't!
>> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
>> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
>> break things that were working well before?
>> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
>> talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
>> not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not 
>> voice over user is getting?
>> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
>> right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
>> before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple 
>> is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about 
>> hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
>> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke 
>> things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in 
>> November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking 
>> about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are 
>> getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even 
>> though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we 
>> will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to 
>> restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but 
>> other never will be fix.
>> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not 
>> say the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am 
>> very interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
>> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
>> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
>> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
>> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
>> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
>> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
>> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>> 
>>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>> 
>>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>>> save it to contacts
>>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>>> 
>>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's &quo

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Carol Pearson]

 we have to restart the 
> hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but other never will 
> be fix.
> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not say 
> the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am very 
> interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>> up or is still connected.
>> 
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
>> double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
>> really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
>> the one who posted that all of this didn't work.
>> 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
>> don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
>> searches andwas able to type in a sea

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[John Diakogeorgiou]

If I have the music player on while my phone is locked I rather have
access to the player functions than hear the time anyway. For this
reason I don't consider it broken. Hopefully Apple comes up with 7.1
soon so that we can stop listening to people complaining all the time.
Although I'm sure they'll find something else to start complaining
about.

On 11/11/13, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Change for the sake of it?  With respect, it sounds like common sense to me.
>  Voiceover always read the first item on the screen below the status bar.
> When on the lock screen, this is usually the time.  This is why we hear the
> time read when we wake our devices.  Now, in IOS 7, when listening to audio,
> the transport controls are automatically shown as the first items on the
> screen.  So naturally, Voiceover reads that first when waking your device.
> Voiceover is doing what it has always done since IOS 3.0.  The difference is
> what is displayed on the screen.  I don’t see what engineers have to do with
> it.  Since the time is shown in the status bar, why would any sighted person
> be so redundant as to show the time again underneath when your listening to
> audio.  Like David said, I’m sure people wrote Apple saying when I’m
> listening to audio, can you have the transport and now playing information
> automatically displayed instead of me needing to press the home button twice
> to bring it up?  Apple then looked at this request and said yes. This does
> indeed make sense.  Since since it is an improvement for 99.9% of our user
> base, and only a 00.1% mild inconvenience for Voiceover users, who just need
> to touch the status bar when listening to audio, this looks like a decent
> enough trade off.
>
> I honestly don’t think it’s that big of a deal.  I mean, how many toggles
> and settings can you cram into an OS or app?  After a while, you just have
> to put your foot down and say enough is enough.  This setting adds an extra
> layer of convenience to the majority of users, and doesn’t break
> accessibility.  It’s not like the clock completely disappears from the
> screen after all.
>
> JMO.
>
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
>
> On Nov 11, 2013, at 4:28 AM, RobH.  wrote:
>
>> Agreed,  pity this couldn't be turned off and something else turned on.
>> Makes you wonder what the development engineers are thinking of when they
>>
>> change these things, apparently for the sake of it.
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Pablo Morales" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
>>
>>
>> Well, apple accessibility has a different opinion than you. They
>> recognize
>> that it should read the time. The people normally look the time more
>> often
>> than when they want to know the track position. Sorry again man. But
>> apple
>> responded to me, that they are going to fix it, and they are apologized
>> about it.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "David Chittenden" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
>>
>>
>> Pablo,
>>
>> VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature,
>> not
>> a bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the
>> audio player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would
>> rather the normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple
>> about
>> it. However, this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many
>> people sent Apple complaints because the audio player did not
>> automatically
>> come up when they first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I
>> seriously doubt your message will cause Apple to change back to the
>> previous
>> system. After all, how often do the majority of users activate the lock
>> screen to manipulate their audio playback compared with how many do so to
>> check the time.
>>
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is
>>> abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
>>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't
>>> a
>>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

Change for the sake of it?  With respect, it sounds like common sense to me.  
Voiceover always read the first item on the screen below the status bar.  When 
on the lock screen, this is usually the time.  This is why we hear the time 
read when we wake our devices.  Now, in IOS 7, when listening to audio, the 
transport controls are automatically shown as the first items on the screen.  
So naturally, Voiceover reads that first when waking your device.  Voiceover is 
doing what it has always done since IOS 3.0.  The difference is what is 
displayed on the screen.  I don’t see what engineers have to do with it.  Since 
the time is shown in the status bar, why would any sighted person be so 
redundant as to show the time again underneath when your listening to audio.  
Like David said, I’m sure people wrote Apple saying when I’m listening to 
audio, can you have the transport and now playing information automatically 
displayed instead of me needing to press the home button twice to bring it up?  
Apple then looked at this request and said yes. This does indeed make sense.  
Since since it is an improvement for 99.9% of our user base, and only a 00.1% 
mild inconvenience for Voiceover users, who just need to touch the status bar 
when listening to audio, this looks like a decent enough trade off.

I honestly don’t think it’s that big of a deal.  I mean, how many toggles and 
settings can you cram into an OS or app?  After a while, you just have to put 
your foot down and say enough is enough.  This setting adds an extra layer of 
convenience to the majority of users, and doesn’t break accessibility.  It’s 
not like the clock completely disappears from the screen after all.

JMO.

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 11, 2013, at 4:28 AM, RobH.  wrote:

> Agreed,  pity this couldn't be turned off and something else turned on.
> Makes you wonder what the development engineers are thinking of when they 
> change these things, apparently for the sake of it.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Pablo Morales" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:14 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Well, apple accessibility has a different opinion than you. They recognize
> that it should read the time. The people normally look the time more often
> than when they want to know the track position. Sorry again man. But apple
> responded to me, that they are going to fix it, and they are apologized
> about it.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "David Chittenden" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:58 PM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Pablo,
> 
> VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature, not
> a bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the
> audio player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would
> rather the normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple about
> it. However, this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many
> people sent Apple complaints because the audio player did not automatically
> come up when they first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I
> seriously doubt your message will cause Apple to change back to the previous
> system. After all, how often do the majority of users activate the lock
> screen to manipulate their audio playback compared with how many do so to
> check the time.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is
>> abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not
>> every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough
>> people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list,
>> several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
>> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Aser Tolentino]

That's a fair bit of hyperbole: iOS4 only ever got up to 4.35 and no iOS since 
has gone beyond a variant of x.1. The way Apple does these things appears to 
have changed, much like Android in the last two years in the far less 
incremental introduction of features, as much for the psychological impact as 
attendant promotion of stability it seems. As flippant as it usually sounds, 
"it's a feature not a bug," often seems to be the correct interpretation of 
many of people's complaints. Human engineering is tricky, since it often 
involves shaping or accounting for people's behavior without them being aware 
of it. I for one have gotten quite used to iOS 7. And things people complain 
about like the change in the now playing info have actually come in handy. The 
approach of trying to figure out why things have changed I think is far 
preferable to the assumption that something has gone wrong. Of course, Apple 
explaining all of these things would be even better; but as the incomplete 
accessibility implementation on things like iBooks in OSX 10.9 tends to 
suggest, components of OS development are likely working down to the wire and 
so that is just another thing that members of the accessibility team think 
would be nice to have, like being able to see more of their families or get a 
full night's sleep. Sorry for the rant, but I hate to think how often something 
someone thought about and worked hard on prompts people to write in and loudly 
and indignantly proclaim it's broken and demand a fix, rather than simply, and 
maybe even politely, report their difficulty and express their preference for 
how things used to be.

Respectfully,
Aser Tolentino, Esq.

> On Nov 11, 2013, at 2:52, "RobH."  wrote:
> 
> I observe that we are still on 7.0.3,  the bit of interest being the 0.  I 
> think 4 got up to 4.5.something, can't remember what 6 got up to;   6.1.3, I 
> still have it;  so no Major updates yet, 7.1 should clear all the current 
> issues,  so long as they don't introduce new ones.
> 
> RobH, waiting for the new version dust to settle.
> 
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wayne gmail " 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:22 AM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Or one can wait a while and IOS 7 will get better.  IOS 6 started with bugs
> and ended up butterflies because each update included fixes and
> improvements.  I'll bet that was true of the $4,000 Android phone as well.
> After all it depends on the Android operating system which is relatively new
> to accessibility and shows it.
> 
> I can easily recall picking up the phone, dialing the operator, and telling
> her the long distance number I wanted to reach and waiting while she
> connected me.  We tended to hold our analog watches where we could see them
> because the long distance charges per minute could quickly mount into
> serious money.  For me, I think IOS 7 is really great!
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of David Chittenden
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
> their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
> phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
> well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
> phone.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
> 7 that were not in IOS6.
>> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are
> compromised.
>> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
> but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
> on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
>> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or
> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
> Nokia better.
>> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
>> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS
> versions will roll out. . . But the sh

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Joanne Chua]

well said Sieghard, can't agree more with your post.
Rob, iOS 6 got up to 6.14 although i think 6.14 only for iPhone 5 users.

Hmm, all these 53++ messages let me think of a business opportunity.

I reckon i can hunt down some of the Nokia button phones and i also have a 
friend that was a Talks diller in Asia and Pacific. Deal to the not-so-recent 
development, he has about 1000 license sitting somewhere with him and he lost a 
big chunk of his business on this investment. Oh, he also have some of the KNFB 
reader license as well...

What about this, fully license Talks and a old Nokia phone for $500US, or, 
Talks + KNFB reader + WayFinder (remember those folks?) + Nokia N86 for $1500US?
And consider thise, since you are such a good convert from Apple to good old 
Nokia, i offer you 10% discount, to $450 for a good old nokia phone with talks, 
or $1350 for the lots?
That those, still cheaper than your Braille + 18... and you know, you get all 
those goodies that you get for old time sake. :P



Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 21:22, "RobH."  wrote:
> 
> I observe that we are still on 7.0.3,  the bit of interest being the 0.  I 
> think 4 got up to 4.5.something, can't remember what 6 got up to;   6.1.3, I 
> still have it;  so no Major updates yet, 7.1 should clear all the current 
> issues,  so long as they don't introduce new ones.
> 
> RobH, waiting for the new version dust to settle.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Wayne gmail " 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:22 AM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Or one can wait a while and IOS 7 will get better.  IOS 6 started with bugs
> and ended up butterflies because each update included fixes and
> improvements.  I'll bet that was true of the $4,000 Android phone as well.
> After all it depends on the Android operating system which is relatively new
> to accessibility and shows it.
> 
> I can easily recall picking up the phone, dialing the operator, and telling
> her the long distance number I wanted to reach and waiting while she
> connected me.  We tended to hold our analog watches where we could see them
> because the long distance charges per minute could quickly mount into
> serious money.  For me, I think IOS 7 is really great!
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of David Chittenden
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
> their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
> phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
> well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
> phone.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
> 7 that were not in IOS6.
>> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are
> compromised.
>> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
> but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
> on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
>> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or
> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
> Nokia better.
>> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
>> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS
> versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with
> us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the
> visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that
> works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to
> a bald world populated with buggy iphones!
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone"
> Google Group.
>> 
>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> 
>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting
> h

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[RobH.]

I observe that we are still on 7.0.3,  the bit of interest being the 0.  I 
think 4 got up to 4.5.something, can't remember what 6 got up to;   6.1.3, I 
still have it;  so no Major updates yet, 7.1 should clear all the current 
issues,  so long as they don't introduce new ones.

RobH, waiting for the new version dust to settle.

- Original Message - 
From: "Wayne gmail " 
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?


Or one can wait a while and IOS 7 will get better.  IOS 6 started with bugs
and ended up butterflies because each update included fixes and
improvements.  I'll bet that was true of the $4,000 Android phone as well.
After all it depends on the Android operating system which is relatively new
to accessibility and shows it.

I can easily recall picking up the phone, dialing the operator, and telling
her the long distance number I wanted to reach and waiting while she
connected me.  We tended to hold our analog watches where we could see them
because the long distance charges per minute could quickly mount into
serious money.  For me, I think IOS 7 is really great!

Regards,
Wayne

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
7 that were not in IOS6.
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are
compromised.
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
Nokia better.
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS
versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the
visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that
works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to
a bald world populated with buggy iphones!
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone"
Google Group.
>
> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
>
> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>
> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing
viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com.
>
> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing
viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>
> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting
http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[RobH.]

Agreed,  pity this couldn't be turned off and something else turned on.
Makes you wonder what the development engineers are thinking of when they 
change these things, apparently for the sake of it.
- Original Message - 
From: "Pablo Morales" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Well, apple accessibility has a different opinion than you. They recognize
that it should read the time. The people normally look the time more often
than when they want to know the track position. Sorry again man. But apple
responded to me, that they are going to fix it, and they are apologized
about it.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Chittenden" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Pablo,

VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature, not
a bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the
audio player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would
rather the normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple about
it. However, this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many
people sent Apple complaints because the audio player did not automatically
come up when they first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I
seriously doubt your message will cause Apple to change back to the previous
system. After all, how often do the majority of users activate the lock
screen to manipulate their audio playback compared with how many do so to
check the time.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales" 
> wrote:
>
> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is
> abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not
> every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough
> people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list,
> several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
> No, it didn't.
> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
> It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
> the phone call?
> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
> saying the same thing. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of
> content again to find where we were before VO jump out.
> it happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence
> for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the
> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is
> happening?
> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty
> similar problems. it happened before?
> No, it didn't!
> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to
> break things that were working well before?
> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am
> talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are
> not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is
> not voice over user is getting?
> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product
> right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done
> before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day,
> apple is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about
> hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke
> things that were workin

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[RobH.]

True, but what a waste of bandwidth when touching the top of the screen 
where the clock is can tell the time.
No worse than all those old talking clocks I had where you had to actually 
press a button.
- Original Message - 
From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:57 AM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?


And one can always just press the home key a moment longer and ask SIRI
"What is the time"


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Pablo,

VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature, not
a bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the
audio player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would
rather the normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple about
it. However, this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many
people sent Apple complaints because the audio player did not automatically
come up when they first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I
seriously doubt your message will cause Apple to change back to the previous
system. After all, how often do the majority of users activate the lock
screen to manipulate their audio playback compared with how many do so to
check the time.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales" 
wrote:
>
> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
> No, it didn't.
> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
> It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content
again to find where we were before VO jump out.
> it happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is
happening?
> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty
similar problems. it happened before?
> No, it didn't!
> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to
break things that were working well before?
> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not
voice over user is getting?
> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple
is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are
getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even
though

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[RobH.]

Hi,  after this lengthy but interesting summary,  the thread can be declared 
closed, all that can be said, has been, more than once I reckon, I stopped 
reading after a while.
I keep a Nokia with Talks,  it's reliable because it's simple.   There's 
mileage in keeping a gismo that does it's little bit, without a glitch, 
your fallback position when the leading edge becomes the bleeding edge.

RobH.
- Original Message - 
From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?


Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
up or is still connected.

2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
the one who posted that all of this didn't work.

3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
government I usually ask first if they voted in the last election. More than
once somebody said that they don't vote in which case I usually tell them
that they might as well shut up then because if they don't participate in
electing the government then they have no right to complain. I am not saying
Avnish hasn't written to Apple to explain places where encounters problems,
but I see a lot of this on the list and I wonder if everybody also takes the
time to compose a constructive email to accessibil...@apple.com to make sure
they know about the issues.

4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
Well, what can I say, Ricardo already said it. Talks has been gone for some
time and no Nokia phone with Talks even at its best can do what the iPhone
can do or even get close to the level of accessibility iOs o

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[BBS]

John and Sieghard, I agree with you guys completely. Like it says in my Skype 
mood message, some blind people are so spoiled. And it’s true, because look at 
this thread. We should be lucky that Apple is giving us a pretty good screen 
reader. I’m just tired of reading threads about people bitching and complaining 
about Apple not living up to their standards. Even on the Mac list we have 
people demanding that Apple do this and do that to make Voiceover live up to 
their standards. I’m tired of this. I think if I find another post about this 
thread, I’m gonna hit the delete button because that is my friend of course. 
I’ll just end off by saying if you don’t like Apple, sell your Mac and your 
iPhone and go to Windows and Android. Now that my rant’s over, Regina, I have 
an iPhone 4S and I’m not experiencing any wifi issues.

Shawn
Sent From My White Mac Book

On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:17 PM, John Diakogeorgiou  wrote:

> I think that Sieghard
> put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
> their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
> with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
> vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
> well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
> At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
> version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
> phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
> upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
> ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
> a few short years ago.
> 
> 
> On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.
>> 
>> The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in
>> Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
>> struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite
>> a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
>> appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the
>> form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
>> screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
>> there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried. Physically
>> find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual
>> display. Split-tap with another finger and the edit box is locked in with
>> the keyboard. Because of rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to
>> then flick to the next edit field. In this case, locate the done button
>> above the o and p letters on the keyboard and double-tap it. This releases
>> the edit field and one can now locate the next edit field. Follow the same
>> procedure. When finished with the form, locate the continue, submit, or
>> otherly worded button and split-tap it.
>> 
>> again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many
>> of these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not
>> impossible, for computer-based screen readers.
>> 
>> In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone using
>> the above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that Jaws
>> cannot access on Windows and IE 10.
>> 
>> As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows
>> Mobile phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically
>> written app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the
>> phone, so it will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 10:13, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>> 
>>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>> 
>>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it
>>> or
>>> save it to contacts
>>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>>> 
>>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is
>>> in
>>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>>> number of ways.
>>> 
>>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very
>>> general
>>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new
>>> iOS
>>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option.
>>> However,
>>> this is in my view the only issue. Appl

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[May and Noah]

I think he just wants to bitch for bitching sakes.

I’m done watching this thread. Hope I don’t miss anything important that I 
might like to know or didn’t even think of.

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:08 PM, Pablo Morales  wrote:

> wow, very convenient when we are using the gps, or when we are writing an 
> email, or looking a phone number. Very nice. Now I have a better opinion of 
> apple hardware.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Pablo,
> 
> The occasional occurrences of VO suddenly becoming silent for a little while 
> appears to be iOS resetting its memory. In most cases, if you wait 15 to 30 
> seconds, VO comes back on and says Voice Over Ready. This means, VO had to be 
> restarted. I remember when iOS 6 came out and VO would sometimes crash. Apple 
> has improved the system now such that, when VO crashes, for what ever reason, 
> it automatically restarts if you leave the system alone for a little while.
> 
> Why is leaving the system alone so important? A sighted friend explained it 
> to me. In iOS hierarchy, touching the screen takes precedence over almost 
> every other task. Therefore, when you start touching and moving your finger 
> around the nonresponsive screen, this distracts iOS and may block VO from 
> restarting; thereby necessitating rebooting your iPhone.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
>> 
>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing 
>> when they decrees the quality of a product?
>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every 
>> body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people 
>> getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several 
>> times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
>> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
>> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
>> seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
>> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
>> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
>> happening?
>> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
>> similar problems. it happened before?
>> No, it didn't!
>> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
>> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
>> break things that were working well before?
>> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
>> talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
>> not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not 
>> voice over user is getting?
>> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
>> right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
>> before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple 
>> i

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[May and Noah]

ugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are 
>> getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even 
>> though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we 
>> will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to 
>> restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but 
>> other never will be fix.
>> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not 
>> say the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am 
>> very interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
>> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
>> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
>> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
>> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
>> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
>> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
>> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>> 
>>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>> 
>>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>>> save it to contacts
>>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>>> 
>>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>>> number of ways.
>>> 
>>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>>> 
>>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>>> 
>>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>>> up or is still connected.
>>> 
>>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>>> save it to contacts
>>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>>

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

Since I was unable to communicate the concept clearly enough, I will leave it 
alone.

As to your comments about Android, Apple continues to beat the records that 
Apple sets. The only Android mobile phone line that reports profitability is 
Samsung, if I am remembering correctly. Even though many more Android tablets 
are reportedly sold now, iPads surf the internet 89% of the time.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 16:26, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
> 
> David, how this double announcement helped me to detect that problem?
> Sorry man, I can't follow you. In my opinion, it is a way to justify a bug. 
> Remember David, been happy with every thing is not a solution. Apple needs to 
> work on this issues, and over every thing, learn about every bug. I didn't 
> write to apple about it, but I want to see if they will give me the same 
> answer that you are giving me.
> I don't think that I am hurting apple saying what is working wrong, and how 
> it worked before, and how it is working now. I think that if they work on 
> this, IOs will be better. Look android, it is  much better than IOs. We 
> prefer to use IOs, because of Voice Over. But android is much better. Why you 
> think that apple is losing market?
> Google is learning, and making a lot of effort in fix their problems. So I 
> think that if we make pressure on apple, telling them, hey guys, it is not 
> well, fix it. We will help apple, and help our self, because voice over is 
> better than talk back or what ever other mobil screen reader.
> Sorry again David, but I can't see your point on this point. How the doble 
> screen locked helped me?
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Pablo,
> 
> At an educated guess after observing the double announcement of screen lock, 
> it looks like screen lock announcement is being triggered every time iOS 
> drops into a further sleep mode. In your case, it actually helped you 
> diagnose a problem a few weeks ago where an app, or a glitch (I do not 
> remember which), was waking your iPhone just enough to take a picture. In 
> fact, it was your report of this that caused me to think about what was 
> occurring and find some ways to test it. So, you can give your phone an 
> instruction which causes it to perform higher functioning for longer and lock 
> the screen. The second screen lock announcement doesn't occur until after 
> more time has elapsed. Annoying, yes, sometimes. As nasty of an effect on 
> people as the severe motion sickness was on some people caused by Apple's 
> cool new visual parallax effect which they corrected in the second update, 
> not hardly.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
>> 
>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing 
>> when they decrees the quality of a product?
>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every 
>> body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people 
>> getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several 
>> times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
>> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>>

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

That is good to hear. I doubt if Apple will change the screen from the audio 
player, however, considering that they made the change to the audio player 
because of many user comments.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 16:14, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
> 
> Well, apple accessibility has a different opinion than you. They recognize 
> that it should read the time. The people normally look the time more often 
> than when they want to know the track position. Sorry again man. But apple 
> responded to me, that they are going to fix it, and they are apologized about 
> it.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:58 PM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Pablo,
> 
> VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature, not a 
> bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the audio 
> player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would rather the 
> normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple about it. However, 
> this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many people sent Apple 
> complaints because the audio player did not automatically come up when they 
> first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I seriously doubt your 
> message will cause Apple to change back to the previous system. After all, 
> how often do the majority of users activate the lock screen to manipulate 
> their audio playback compared with how many do so to check the time.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
>> 
>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing 
>> when they decrees the quality of a product?
>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every 
>> body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people 
>> getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several 
>> times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
>> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
>> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
>> seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
>> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
>> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
>> happening?
>> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
>> similar problems. it happened before?
>> No, it didn't!
>> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
>> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
>> break things that were working well before?
>> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
>> talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
>> not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not 
>> voice over user is getting?
>> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
>> r

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

VO has always jumped to the back button since at least iOS 6, if not iOS 5, 
whenever an email message is opened.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 16:12, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
> 
> No David, sorry, but you are wrong. When an email comes, is normal that the 
> cursor of VO find the first email on the list. It is the way how the IOs 
> handle the order of emails to show. But I am not talking that when comes an 
> email, VO jump to the first email. Normally it jump to the side of the screen 
> that says, updated just now.. it is not in the list of emails, because of 
> that, I have to find the email where I was before. Sorry big guy, but I  am 
> not talking about that. More over, when I have a list of content, VO jumps to 
> the top of the list, or to the tag coming back, or to any button on the 
> screen. For example in Settings, VO jumps to the header settings, or where 
> ever is, to the tag that says back. And here are not coming emails.
> Sorry my friend, I am not trying to just be against you, just your point is 
> not my point.
> ,
> - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Pablo,
> 
> The email tracking bug is definitely annoying. Have you figured out what it 
> actually does, or do you believe it just jumps VO all over the place. If the 
> latter, Apple may not understand what you mean when you tell them because 
> they may not be able to reproduce what you say. In that spirit, here is what 
> is actually happening.
> 
> When mail goes to the server to get the latest messages, if one is reading a 
> message that happens to be in a thread, iOS actually jumps to another message 
> in the thread. Now, I have read some messages that Apple has pinpointed this 
> bug in mail, and that it is exclusive to gmail accounts. If you have a gmail 
> account and this is where the problem is occurring, Apple is working on it. 
> If you have a different account provider and this problem is occurring, 
> notify Apple because the reports stated this particular bug which I spelled 
> out is specific to gmail.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
>> 
>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing 
>> when they decrees the quality of a product?
>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every 
>> body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people 
>> getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several 
>> times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
>> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
>> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
>> seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
>> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
>> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
>> happening?
>> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
>> si

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

Well, consider that this specific problem started when Apple added the app 
switcher and the ability for more than one app to run at a time on the iPhone. 
So yes, the ability to automatically restart VO when memory overloads is a key 
feature improvement. It did not usually happen on Windows back when I was using 
Windows with Jaws. Considering this was in 2011, I do not know how things have 
changed since that time.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 16:08, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
> 
> wow, very convenient when we are using the gps, or when we are writing an 
> email, or looking a phone number. Very nice. Now I have a better opinion of 
> apple hardware.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Pablo,
> 
> The occasional occurrences of VO suddenly becoming silent for a little while 
> appears to be iOS resetting its memory. In most cases, if you wait 15 to 30 
> seconds, VO comes back on and says Voice Over Ready. This means, VO had to be 
> restarted. I remember when iOS 6 came out and VO would sometimes crash. Apple 
> has improved the system now such that, when VO crashes, for what ever reason, 
> it automatically restarts if you leave the system alone for a little while.
> 
> Why is leaving the system alone so important? A sighted friend explained it 
> to me. In iOS hierarchy, touching the screen takes precedence over almost 
> every other task. Therefore, when you start touching and moving your finger 
> around the nonresponsive screen, this distracts iOS and may block VO from 
> restarting; thereby necessitating rebooting your iPhone.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:
>> 
>> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
>> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing 
>> when they decrees the quality of a product?
>> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
>> problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every 
>> body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people 
>> getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several 
>> times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
>> minutes later, VO repeats the message.
>> It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
>> the phone call?
>> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
>> saying the same thing. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
>> you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
>> don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
>> voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
>> again to find where we were before VO jump out.
>> it happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
>> and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
>> the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
>> No, it didn't.
>> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
>> seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
>> pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
>> screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
>> happening?
>> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
>> similar problems. it happened before?
>> No, it didn't!
>> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
>> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
>> break things that were working well before?
>> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
>> talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
>> not in this email. But add to this list

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Cristóbal]

That and one can always try their hand at all the other VI friendly mobile
operating systems out there like Windows mobile phone, Firefox OS,
Blackberry and so on Oh wait, that's right. Those other OS's aren't even
anywhere close in regards to accessibility when compared to what Apple's
done in the past few years. An argument may be made for the latest and
greatest Android, but for my money, I'm still more than happy to work within
the iOS ecosystem.
Feature phones? No thanks, I'll pass on those devices as well.


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of John Diakogeorgiou
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:18 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

I think that Sieghard
put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
a few short years ago.


On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:
> Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.
>
> The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking
in
> Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
> struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have
quite
> a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
> appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through
the
> form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
> screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
> there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried.
Physically
> find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This locks it on the
visual
> display. Split-tap with another finger and the edit box is locked in with
> the keyboard. Because of rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to
> then flick to the next edit field. In this case, locate the done button
> above the o and p letters on the keyboard and double-tap it. This releases
> the edit field and one can now locate the next edit field. Follow the same
> procedure. When finished with the form, locate the continue, submit, or
> otherly worded button and split-tap it.
>
> again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many
> of these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not
> impossible, for computer-based screen readers.
>
> In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone
using
> the above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that Jaws
> cannot access on Windows and IE 10.
>
> As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows
> Mobile phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a
specifically
> written app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the
> phone, so it will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 10:13, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it
>> or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>>
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is
>> in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>>
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very
>> general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new
>> iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree th

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Sieghard.
the improvements are cool, but we can not justify the bad things, with the 
good things. It is mediocrity. Why I said so?
Because the problems are with things that were working fine before, but no 
now. If the bugs are just with the new things, ok, it is understandable, but 
with things that worked fine before?
No man, it is not well. Again, I don't want to bring apple to the bank 
broken. I want that they improve every day, and it means with the new 
things, but with the old things also. If I like iPhone?

I love it.
If I love the new things?
I love it.
But I can't be happy with the issues that worked fine before, and now are 
not like that.

I am asking too much to apple?
Well, I am paying too much also.

- Original Message - 
From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:53 PM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?



Pablo,

I just don't understand some of the complaints. I don't see a difference 
in

the location of the End button when I'm on a phone call, it's still right
there at the bottom of the screen.
Then there are little things like Voiceover saying Screene Locked a second
time, I mean, really, so what.

What about all the improvements? All some people do is complain but they
forget to recognize the good things.
What about the handwriting feature which is awesome for quickly finding
apps?
What about SIRI which works better now than ever?
What about the new 2-finger quadruple tap to copy the last spoken text 
which

I use quite often and find great?
What about Facetime Audio, I think it's awesome.
What about little fixes like Voiceovover not losing focus when I am in 
email
53 of my Inbox and back out where it now stays on email 53 instead of 
going
back to email 1? This, by the way, I remember you complained about 
bitterly

when iOS 6 was released and this was introduced.
What about the fantastic support for hearing aids, not something that is
mentioned that often on this list even though I know some Viphone members
have significant hearing loss and for them this is more revolutionary than
evolutionary.
These are just a few examples, some are general features and some are
accessibility related.

Pablo, I am not saying it's all peaches and cream, there are bugs, there
always were bugs and there always will be bugs.
In the meantime I love what I can do with my iPhone, the access to apps 
and

information it gives me.
I prefer to send the occasional email to the accessibility team if I am 
sure
I found something that truly doesn't work and which isn't working because 
I
am not paying attention because I know that Apple is committed to 
improving

accessibility even if apparently you feel it's worse than ever.
Maybe you should look for an iPhone 3GS running iOS 5 or iOS 6 on eBay so
you can have the experience you seem to be missing.


Happy tapping,
Sieghard


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Pablo Morales
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:41 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is 
abusing

when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not 
every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough 
people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, 
several

times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of 
content

again to find where we were before VO jump out.
it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence 
for

seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
pressing

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

wow, very convenient when we are using the gps, or when we are writing an 
email, or looking a phone number. Very nice. Now I have a better opinion of 
apple hardware.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Chittenden" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Pablo,

The occasional occurrences of VO suddenly becoming silent for a little while 
appears to be iOS resetting its memory. In most cases, if you wait 15 to 30 
seconds, VO comes back on and says Voice Over Ready. This means, VO had to 
be restarted. I remember when iOS 6 came out and VO would sometimes crash. 
Apple has improved the system now such that, when VO crashes, for what ever 
reason, it automatically restarts if you leave the system alone for a little 
while.


Why is leaving the system alone so important? A sighted friend explained it 
to me. In iOS hierarchy, touching the screen takes precedence over almost 
every other task. Therefore, when you start touching and moving your finger 
around the nonresponsive screen, this distracts iOS and may block VO from 
restarting; thereby necessitating rebooting your iPhone.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  
wrote:


Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is 
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not 
every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough 
people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, 
several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?

No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
minutes later, VO repeats the message.

It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
saying the same thing. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of 
content again to find where we were before VO jump out.

it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence 
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
similar problems. it happened before?

No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is 
not voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, 
apple is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about 
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke 
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in 
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking 
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are 
getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even 
though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never 
we will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to 
restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but 
other never will be fix.
So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not 
say the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Well, it is a bug. If technically or mystery voice over is working 
differently, is a bug. Bug means something that makes that the machine, or 
process, or OS,  doesn't work like should be doing. If it is a hardware 
problem, a new thing or IOs, it is not working like should be. And apple has 
to fix it.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Chittenden" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Pablo,

Your problem with typing using the onscreen keyboard, which a few people are 
experiencing is caused by the following. Technically, it is not a bug. It is 
a different way that VO is interacting with the various elements of the 
screen, and requires some retraining to work with effectively.


Previous to iOS 7, when a person is typing on the onscreen keyboard, moving 
above the keyboard into the text field of the screen had a small delay 
before triggering. This meant, when you accidentally moved above the 
keyboard, this delay kept the edit field from tracking your touch and moving 
the cursor to your finger.


Now, the off keyboard delay has been removed, so when you move your finger 
above the keyboard and hesitate, VO jumps the writing cursor to the actual 
position of your finger. I say this is not a bug because it is actually 
quite convenient when working in a form in a notes or editing app. It is 
not, as you have stated multiple times, VO jumping randomly around the page. 
If you calm down rather than being frustrated when it happens, you will 
easily spot the pattern and can fairly easily move the cursor back to where 
you want it. However, if you train yourself to not hesitate / stop movement 
of your finger when it drifts above the keyboard, you will not experience 
this particular situation. And, if you word your emails to Apple such that 
they actually explain what is going on, they can adjust the situation for a 
future release if necessary. Oh, and what determines necessary? That seems 
obvious, receiving emails from different people expressing the same 
difficulty in an easy to understand way which explains the problem rather 
than just ranting about how the product no longer works.


As to whether the situation will be corrected quickly depends on a multitude 
of factors of which none of us are aware. I used to work in alpha and beta 
testing, and I can assure you that many a seemingly simple fix can, and 
often does, change / create other bugs across the system. This always 
happens in complex systems, and iOS is definitely a complex system with a 
great many features.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  
wrote:


Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is 
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not 
every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough 
people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, 
several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?

No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
minutes later, VO repeats the message.

It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
saying the same thing. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of 
content again to find where we were before VO jump out.

it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence 
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
similar problems. it happened before?

No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new thing

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Well, apple accessibility has a different opinion than you. They recognize 
that it should read the time. The people normally look the time more often 
than when they want to know the track position. Sorry again man. But apple 
responded to me, that they are going to fix it, and they are apologized 
about it.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Chittenden" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Pablo,

VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature, not 
a bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the 
audio player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would 
rather the normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple about 
it. However, this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many 
people sent Apple complaints because the audio player did not automatically 
come up when they first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I 
seriously doubt your message will cause Apple to change back to the previous 
system. After all, how often do the majority of users activate the lock 
screen to manipulate their audio playback compared with how many do so to 
check the time.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  
wrote:


Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is 
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not 
every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough 
people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, 
several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?

No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
minutes later, VO repeats the message.

It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
saying the same thing. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of 
content again to find where we were before VO jump out.

it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence 
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
similar problems. it happened before?

No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is 
not voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, 
apple is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about 
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke 
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in 
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking 
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are 
getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even 
though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never 
we will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to 
restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but 
other never will be fix.
So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

David, how this double announcement helped me to detect that problem?
Sorry man, I can't follow you. In my opinion, it is a way to justify a bug. 
Remember David, been happy with every thing is not a solution. Apple needs 
to work on this issues, and over every thing, learn about every bug. I 
didn't write to apple about it, but I want to see if they will give me the 
same answer that you are giving me.
I don't think that I am hurting apple saying what is working wrong, and how 
it worked before, and how it is working now. I think that if they work on 
this, IOs will be better. Look android, it is  much better than IOs. We 
prefer to use IOs, because of Voice Over. But android is much better. Why 
you think that apple is losing market?
Google is learning, and making a lot of effort in fix their problems. So I 
think that if we make pressure on apple, telling them, hey guys, it is not 
well, fix it. We will help apple, and help our self, because voice over is 
better than talk back or what ever other mobil screen reader.
Sorry again David, but I can't see your point on this point. How the doble 
screen locked helped me?



- Original Message - 
From: "David Chittenden" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Pablo,

At an educated guess after observing the double announcement of screen lock, 
it looks like screen lock announcement is being triggered every time iOS 
drops into a further sleep mode. In your case, it actually helped you 
diagnose a problem a few weeks ago where an app, or a glitch (I do not 
remember which), was waking your iPhone just enough to take a picture. In 
fact, it was your report of this that caused me to think about what was 
occurring and find some ways to test it. So, you can give your phone an 
instruction which causes it to perform higher functioning for longer and 
lock the screen. The second screen lock announcement doesn't occur until 
after more time has elapsed. Annoying, yes, sometimes. As nasty of an effect 
on people as the severe motion sickness was on some people caused by Apple's 
cool new visual parallax effect which they corrected in the second update, 
not hardly.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  
wrote:


Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is 
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not 
every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough 
people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, 
several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?

No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
minutes later, VO repeats the message.

It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
saying the same thing. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of 
content again to find where we were before VO jump out.

it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence 
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
similar problems. it happened before?

No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is 
not voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

No David, sorry, but you are wrong. When an email comes, is normal that the 
cursor of VO find the first email on the list. It is the way how the IOs 
handle the order of emails to show. But I am not talking that when comes an 
email, VO jump to the first email. Normally it jump to the side of the 
screen that says, updated just now.. it is not in the list of emails, 
because of that, I have to find the email where I was before. Sorry big guy, 
but I  am not talking about that. More over, when I have a list of content, 
VO jumps to the top of the list, or to the tag coming back, or to any button 
on the screen. For example in Settings, VO jumps to the header settings, or 
where ever is, to the tag that says back. And here are not coming emails.
Sorry my friend, I am not trying to just be against you, just your point is 
not my point.

,
- Original Message - 
From: "David Chittenden" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Pablo,

The email tracking bug is definitely annoying. Have you figured out what it 
actually does, or do you believe it just jumps VO all over the place. If the 
latter, Apple may not understand what you mean when you tell them because 
they may not be able to reproduce what you say. In that spirit, here is what 
is actually happening.


When mail goes to the server to get the latest messages, if one is reading a 
message that happens to be in a thread, iOS actually jumps to another 
message in the thread. Now, I have read some messages that Apple has 
pinpointed this bug in mail, and that it is exclusive to gmail accounts. If 
you have a gmail account and this is where the problem is occurring, Apple 
is working on it. If you have a different account provider and this problem 
is occurring, notify Apple because the reports stated this particular bug 
which I spelled out is specific to gmail.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales"  
wrote:


Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is 
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not 
every body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough 
people getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, 
several times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?

No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
minutes later, VO repeats the message.

It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
saying the same thing. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of 
content again to find where we were before VO jump out.

it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence 
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
similar problems. it happened before?

No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is 
not voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, 
apple is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about 
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
In the las

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[John Diakogeorgiou]

I think that Sieghard
put it well. I am very tired of listening to people complaining about
their phones and the problems they are having. If you are so unhappy
with Apple or your IPhone sell it and buy an android phone. For the
vast majority of the blind people using this technology it works quite
well. Yes their are bugs but they exist with all technology products.
At least with the IPhone we have the option to upgrade when a new
version of their software comes out. We are not at the mercy of the
phone carriers or manufacturers as to whether they will let us
upgrade. All in all this technology works well. It has provided us the
ability to do much more with our phones than we thought possible just
a few short years ago.


On 11/10/13, David Chittenden  wrote:
> Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.
>
> The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in
> Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
> struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite
> a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
> appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the
> form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
> screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
> there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried. Physically
> find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual
> display. Split-tap with another finger and the edit box is locked in with
> the keyboard. Because of rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to
> then flick to the next edit field. In this case, locate the done button
> above the o and p letters on the keyboard and double-tap it. This releases
> the edit field and one can now locate the next edit field. Follow the same
> procedure. When finished with the form, locate the continue, submit, or
> otherly worded button and split-tap it.
>
> again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many
> of these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not
> impossible, for computer-based screen readers.
>
> In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone using
> the above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that Jaws
> cannot access on Windows and IE 10.
>
> As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows
> Mobile phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically
> written app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the
> phone, so it will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 10:13, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it
>> or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>>
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is
>> in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>>
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very
>> general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new
>> iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option.
>> However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to
>> upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who
>> says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything
>> or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen.
>> If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because
>> at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already
>> their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of
>> pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>>
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>>
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

I have 1 Exchange account and 2 Outlook.com accounts and I have never
experienced this issue.

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:06 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Pablo,

The email tracking bug is definitely annoying. Have you figured out what it
actually does, or do you believe it just jumps VO all over the place. If the
latter, Apple may not understand what you mean when you tell them because
they may not be able to reproduce what you say. In that spirit, here is what
is actually happening.

When mail goes to the server to get the latest messages, if one is reading a
message that happens to be in a thread, iOS actually jumps to another
message in the thread. Now, I have read some messages that Apple has
pinpointed this bug in mail, and that it is exclusive to gmail accounts. If
you have a gmail account and this is where the problem is occurring, Apple
is working on it. If you have a different account provider and this problem
is occurring, notify Apple because the reports stated this particular bug
which I spelled out is specific to gmail.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales" 
wrote:
> 
> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
> No, it didn't.
> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
> It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content
again to find where we were before VO jump out.
> it happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is
happening?
> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty
similar problems. it happened before?
> No, it didn't!
> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to
break things that were working well before?
> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not
voice over user is getting?
> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple
is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are
getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even
though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we
will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to
restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but
other never will be fix.

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

And one can always just press the home key a moment longer and ask SIRI
"What is the time"


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Pablo,

VO announcing the track position rather than the time is a new feature, not
a bug. When an audio track is playing, the lock screen now displays the
audio player screen rather than the normal unlock screen. If you would
rather the normal unlock screen was displayed, send an email to Apple about
it. However, this is not a bug! In fact, I am willing to bet that many
people sent Apple complaints because the audio player did not automatically
come up when they first opened the lock screen. If that is the case, I
seriously doubt your message will cause Apple to change back to the previous
system. After all, how often do the majority of users activate the lock
screen to manipulate their audio playback compared with how many do so to
check the time.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 12:41, "Pablo Morales" 
wrote:
> 
> Sieghard, what are you talking about?
> So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is
abusing when they decrees the quality of a product?
> For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
> No, it didn't.
> Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
> It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
> No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content
again to find where we were before VO jump out.
> it happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
> No, it didn't.
> I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence
for seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is
happening?
> No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty
similar problems. it happened before?
> No, it didn't!
> How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
> . I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to
break things that were working well before?
> In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not
voice over user is getting?
> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple
is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are
getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even
though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we
will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to
restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but
other never will be fix.
> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not
say the same thing of the last IOs that I 

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Pablo,

I just don't understand some of the complaints. I don't see a difference in
the location of the End button when I'm on a phone call, it's still right
there at the bottom of the screen.
Then there are little things like Voiceover saying Screene Locked a second
time, I mean, really, so what.

What about all the improvements? All some people do is complain but they
forget to recognize the good things.
What about the handwriting feature which is awesome for quickly finding
apps?
What about SIRI which works better now than ever?
What about the new 2-finger quadruple tap to copy the last spoken text which
I use quite often and find great?
What about Facetime Audio, I think it's awesome.
What about little fixes like Voiceovover not losing focus when I am in email
53 of my Inbox and back out where it now stays on email 53 instead of going
back to email 1? This, by the way, I remember you complained about bitterly
when iOS 6 was released and this was introduced.
What about the fantastic support for hearing aids, not something that is
mentioned that often on this list even though I know some Viphone members
have significant hearing loss and for them this is more revolutionary than
evolutionary.
These are just a few examples, some are general features and some are
accessibility related.

Pablo, I am not saying it's all peaches and cream, there are bugs, there
always were bugs and there always will be bugs.
In the meantime I love what I can do with my iPhone, the access to apps and
information it gives me.
I prefer to send the occasional email to the accessibility team if I am sure
I found something that truly doesn't work and which isn't working because I
am not paying attention because I know that Apple is committed to improving
accessibility even if apparently you feel it's worse than ever.
Maybe you should look for an iPhone 3GS running iOS 5 or iOS 6 on eBay so
you can have the experience you seem to be missing.


Happy tapping,
Sieghard

 
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Pablo Morales
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:41 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing
when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content
again to find where we were before VO jump out.
it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for
seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty
similar problems. it happened before?
No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not
voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones e

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Christopher,

You make a good point. Sometimes Safari and the iPhone work great on a
website, other times Jaws and IE or Jaws and Firefox do a great job. How
often have I started to sign up for a service or something using IE only to
find a captcha with no audio option after pressing Next 3 times. Then I had
to go and do it all over in Firefox where I have Webvisum available to solve
the captcha.

I do woodworking as a hobby and I don't cut every piece of wood with my
table saw. Sometimes I use a miter saw, a jig saw or even a hand saw.
In the same way I think we have to take advantage of the tools available to
us when it comes to reading emails etc. I love the Mail app on the iPhone,
but I would never use it for Viphone because I don't need to hear 100 dings
each day when messages come in and I can go through 100 messages and reply
to 10 of them much much faster on my PC than I ever could on my phone.
On the other hand I prefer to use the Booking.com app for making a hotel
reservation over using the booking.com website on the computer and the same
goes for using the Trip Advisor app over the Trip Advisor website which is
really cluttered and full of ads.


Regards,
Sieghard

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

When you say:

> As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows
Mobile phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically
written app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the
phone, so it will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.

I assume you're talking about the latest Windows Phone 8 smart phone and
Mobile Accessibility for Windows Phone 8. Windows Windows Mobile and Mobile
Speak were different products. Also, as you say Mobile Accessibility for
Windows Phone 8 only gives you a suite of accessible apps. this is very
different from Talks, which was a 3rd party screen reader giving you access
to the operating system and numerous apps on your smart phone.

I agree, sometimes Safari and VoiceOver is going to give you the best access
to a web site, but I've also had trouble with this combination when Chrome
or Orca and Firefox or some other combination gave me better results.



On 11/10/2013 05:36 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
> Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.
>
> The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking
in Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO
struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite
a bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles
appear to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the
form using right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual
screen, it will not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However,
there is a work-around that works for most websites I have tried. Physically
find the edit field and hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual
display. Split-tap with another finger and the edit box is locked in with
the keyboard. Because of rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to
then flick to the next edit field. In this case, locate the done button
above the o and p letters on the keyboard and double-tap it. This releases
the edit field and one can now locate the next edit field. Follow the same
procedure. When finished with the form, locate the continue, submit, or
otherly worded button and split-tap it.
>
> again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many
of these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not
impossible, for computer-based screen readers.
>
> In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone
using the above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that
Jaws cannot access on Windows and IE 10.
>
> As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows
Mobile phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically
written app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the
phone, so it will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 10:13, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>>
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>>
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable 2. He can't tap on a phone 
>> number in a text message or email to dial it or save it to contacts 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

Remember to compare apples to apples. This is a 18 cell braille note 
taker and not just a smart phone. A 14 cell braille display from Freedom 
Scientific costs $1300, so an 18 cell display would cost a bit more. 
Combine a 18 cell braille display with a unlocked smart phone and 
although the Braille Plus 18 still costs a bit more, the difference in 
price is much less than just comparing an iPhone to a Braille Plus 18, 
which costs $3600.


On 11/10/2013 07:50 PM, May and Noah wrote:

Ow damn, that’s one expensive one. Whew, I’ll stick with my phone that um was 
wy less than that.

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

On Nov 10, 2013, at 6:48 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:


Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out 
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a phone 
specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work well for the 
blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:

This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 7 
that were not in IOS6.
It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are compromised.
1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call but 
it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain on my 
wallet due to large long distance call charges.
2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
Nokia better.
3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous phones 
running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone and guess 
what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. Technology 
for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually challenged. Wish 
someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all 
one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald world populated with buggy 
iphones!

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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Regina Alvarado]

s of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but other never will 
> be fix.
> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not say 
> the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am very 
> interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>> up or is still connected.
>> 
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
>> double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
>> really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
>> the one who posted that all of this didn't work.
>> 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
>> don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
>> searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
>&g

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

ested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>> up or is still connected.
>> 
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
>> double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
>> really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
>> the one who posted that all of this didn't work.
>> 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
>> don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
>> searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
>> Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
>> horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
>> talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
>> government I usu

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

 IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am very 
> interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>> up or is still connected.
>> 
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
>> double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
>> really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
>> the one who posted that all of this didn't work.
>> 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
>> don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
>> searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
>> Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
>> horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
>> talk to somebody about po

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

; devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>> up or is still connected.
>> 
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
>> double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
>> really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
>> the one who posted that all of this didn't work.
>> 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
>> don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
>> searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
>> Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
>> horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
>> talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
>> government I usually ask first if they voted in the last election. More than
>>

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

 same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am very 
> interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
>> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
>> up or is still connected.
>> 
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
>> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
>> double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
>> really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
>> the one who posted that all of this didn't work.
>> 
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
>> don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
>> searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
>> Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
>> horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
>> talk 

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[May and Noah]

Ow damn, that’s one expensive one. Whew, I’ll stick with my phone that um was 
wy less than that.

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

On Nov 10, 2013, at 6:48 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:

> Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out 
> their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a 
> phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work well 
> for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android phone.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
>> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 
>> 7 that were not in IOS6. 
>> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
>> compromised. 
>> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call 
>> but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain 
>> on my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
>> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
>> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
>> Nokia better. 
>> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
>> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
>> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
>> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
>> will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
>> Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
>> challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
>> IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald 
>> world populated with buggy iphones!  
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

l. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not 
> voice over user is getting?
> I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
> right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done before. 
> While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple is not 
> doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about hardware, I am 
> talking about IOs developers.
> In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke 
> things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in 
> November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking 
> about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are getting 
> now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even though we 
> will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we will be 
> happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to restart the 
> hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but other never will 
> be fix.
> So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not say 
> the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am very 
> interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
> devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
> developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
> for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
> stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
> before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
> stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
> effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
>> 
>> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
>> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
>> save it to contacts
>> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
>> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
>> 
>> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
>> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
>> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
>> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
>> number of ways.
>> 
>> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
>> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
>> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
>> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
>> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
>> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
>> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
>> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
>> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
>> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
>> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
>> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
>> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
>> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
>> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
>> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
>> 
>> Now, as to the 4 items above:
>> 
>> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
>> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
>> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
>> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
>> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
>> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
>> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
>> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
>> right ther

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Wayne gmail]

When I find myself having trouble with using the double tap to end a call I
go to the VO practice app.  After a few minutes work the double tap works a
lot better.  Thanks Apple for helping me help myself!
   I agree on the issue of the Evil Apple rants.  If I worked for Microsoft
I'd be smiling because now someone else gets to share the flames for having
made things better but not perfect.  
   Everyone has the right to whine and I exercise my rights just like
everyone else.  However, there is no inalienable right to be listened
to or taken seriously if we complain to  the wrong audience.  Please tell
Apple and Tap Tap See if you don't like them and don't buy their products!
It isn't my business whether or not you decide to purchase a particular
product unless that reason is due to the fact that a blind person cannot use
it.  If you warn me off or tell me workarounds, I am grateful but just
griping is way too much information.
  It isn't even advocacy if one just complains without providing a strategy
to make things better.  Doing that on this list would probably quickly and
correctly be judged an off topic discussion.  Anyone want to host a Don
Quixote with a white cane list?  
   This list has made the IPhone much more of an asset for me and it is a
great place for a lot of very nice people to share good information.
Unfortunately  it seems to take an ever larger chunk of time to sort out the
signal from the noise even with techniques of grouping messages and deleting
them. 

With sincerest regards to all sides of all debates,
Wayne
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:13 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
up or is still connected.

2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others
wrote also for them.
A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
the one who posted that all of this didn't work.

3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
This one I understand is an issue, I can

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Victor Gouveia]

Pablo,

I can honestly say that I am not experiencing any of the bugs you outlined 
in your original post.  That's not to say I'm not experiencing bugs at all, 
but none of the bugs you mentioned are being experienced by me, and I am 
using iOS 7.03 on an iPhone 4S.


I am wondering something though, as I noticed this a while back when someone 
posted the resolution for the lag that 4S users were experiencing.  Did you 
reset your iPhone settings back to their original defaults?


I don't mean erasing all your data, but just resetting your iPhone back to 
it's factory defaults, as this seem to fix the majority of the bugs I was 
facing with my handset.


So, the more important question is if you have actually done this to see if 
it resolved your problem or not.


If you did, you may want to visit an Apple Store to see what the deal is 
with your iPhone because, as I said, I, and it would seem, a great number of 
your peers are not experiencing these bugs, so I'm thinking your issues are 
handset specific.


If you did not perform the reset, then it would seem that you are simply 
talking out of your ass, and have not tried any of the resolutions that have 
been posted to the list thus far.  This kind of harkens back to what 
Sieghard said about voting.  If you don't vote, then you have nothing to 
complain about.


Anyway, I would attempt the phone reset and see what happens.



Victor Gouveia
Vice-President
Training Coordinator
VIP Tech
Tel: 1-888-737-1115
Fax: 1-888-737-1116
Home: victor.gouv...@rogers.com
Work: viptrain...@rogers.com
Limiting Disabilities with Limitless Possibilities

-Original Message- 
From: Pablo Morales

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:41 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing
when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?
No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or
minutes later, VO repeats the message.
It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people
saying the same thing. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content,
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content
again to find where we were before VO jump out.
it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media,
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?
No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for
seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty
similar problems. it happened before?
No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not
voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple
is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are
getting now, will not be fixed a

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

You can't possibly know what the future holds for the upgradability of 
this device. Besides, I'm not even sure what falling farther behind 
means in this case. Falling behind what?


BTW, I assume we're talking about the Braille Plus 18, which is more 
like a note taker with a cellular option than a smart phone. It also 
costs $3600 US and not $4000.


On 11/10/2013 06:33 PM, Jesus Garcia wrote:

Which you cannot upgrade with android, thus the base of the operating system
will continue falling further and further behind, until one day guess what
it will no longer work.


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: November 10, 2013 18:49
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:

This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many

shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
7 that were not in IOS6.

It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are

compromised.

1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call

but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.

2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or

message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
Nokia better.

3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous

phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.

This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS

versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the
visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that
works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to
a bald world populated with buggy iphones!

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chaltain at Gmail

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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Troy Sullivan]

I agree Sieghard, hanging up a call with 2 finger doubletap works a lot 
better. Perhaps he needs to do a full restore as suggested many times on 
here if you come across a really buggy phone. I'm running ios7.03 and I 
noticed the bugs are pretty gone at this point, even the one I wrote apple 
about with the speaker phone issue. Like I mentioned earlier on this thread 
he should just cell or anyone unhappy with apple sell their devices and move 
on, simple as that.




- Original Message - 
From: "DJ" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:19 PM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?


Remember that there is yet another way to end a call.  Simply hold the 
phone
to your ear and press on the button on the top of the phone (the one you 
all

use to lock the phone).  That one works every time!  Sheesh.

Thanks Sieghard for writing all of the things I would have written if you
had not written them.  lol

DJ


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is 
in

general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very 
general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new 
iOS

to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. 
However,

this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who 
says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything 
or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. 
If

Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because 
at

that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of 
pressure

there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 
7
was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or 
mentioned

a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and 
that

is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was 
hung

up or is still connected.

2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for 
them.

A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. 
I'd
really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think 
was

the one who posted that all of this didn't work.

3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this 
so

horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
government I usually ask first if they voted in the last election. More 
than

once somebody said that they don't vote in which case I usually tell them
that they might as well shut up then bec

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Troy Sullivan]

well then if you don't like it just sell it and move on! Simple as that.
- Original Message - 
From: "Wayne gmail " 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?


Or one can wait a while and IOS 7 will get better.  IOS 6 started with 
bugs

and ended up butterflies because each update included fixes and
improvements.  I'll bet that was true of the $4,000 Android phone as well.
After all it depends on the Android operating system which is relatively 
new

to accessibility and shows it.

I can easily recall picking up the phone, dialing the operator, and 
telling

her the long distance number I wanted to reach and waiting while she
connected me.  We tended to hold our analog watches where we could see 
them

because the long distance charges per minute could quickly mount into
serious money.  For me, I think IOS 7 is really great!

Regards,
Wayne

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:

This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in 
ver

7 that were not in IOS6.

It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are

compromised.

1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a 
drain

on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call 
or
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year 
old

Nokia better.

3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a 
iphone

and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.

This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS

versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the
visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that
works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome 
to

a bald world populated with buggy iphones!


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RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Jesus Garcia]

Which you cannot upgrade with android, thus the base of the operating system
will continue falling further and further behind, until one day guess what
it will no longer work.


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: November 10, 2013 18:49
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
7 that were not in IOS6. 
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are
compromised. 
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
on my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
Nokia better. 
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS
versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the
visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that
works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to
a bald world populated with buggy iphones!  
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone"
Google Group.
> 
> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
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> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting
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RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Wayne gmail]

Or one can wait a while and IOS 7 will get better.  IOS 6 started with bugs
and ended up butterflies because each update included fixes and
improvements.  I'll bet that was true of the $4,000 Android phone as well.
After all it depends on the Android operating system which is relatively new
to accessibility and shows it.

I can easily recall picking up the phone, dialing the operator, and telling
her the long distance number I wanted to reach and waiting while she
connected me.  We tended to hold our analog watches where we could see them
because the long distance charges per minute could quickly mount into
serious money.  For me, I think IOS 7 is really great!

Regards,
Wayne

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Chittenden
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a
phone specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work
well for the blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android
phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver
7 that were not in IOS6. 
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are
compromised. 
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain
on my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old
Nokia better. 
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone
and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS
versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the
visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that
works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to
a bald world populated with buggy iphones!  
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone"
Google Group.
> 
> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing
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RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[DJ]

Remember that there is yet another way to end a call.  Simply hold the phone
to your ear and press on the button on the top of the phone (the one you all
use to lock the phone).  That one works every time!  Sheesh.

Thanks Sieghard for writing all of the things I would have written if you
had not written them.  lol

DJ


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
up or is still connected.

2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
the one who posted that all of this didn't work.

3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
government I usually ask first if they voted in the last election. More than
once somebody said that they don't vote in which case I usually tell them
that they might as well shut up then because if they don't participate in
electing the government then they have no right to complain. I am not saying
Avnish hasn't written to Apple to explain places where encounters problems,
but I see a lot of this on the list and I wonder if everybody also takes the
time to compose a constructive email to accessibil...@apple.com to make sure
they know about the issues.

4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
Well, what can I say, Ricardo already said it. Talks has been gone for some
time and no Nokia phone with Talks even at its best can do what the iPhone
can do or even get close to the level of accessibility iOs offers. It's of
co

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Christopher Chaltain]

When you say:


As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows Mobile 
phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically written 
app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the phone, so it 
will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.


I assume you're talking about the latest Windows Phone 8 smart phone and 
Mobile Accessibility for Windows Phone 8. Windows Windows Mobile and 
Mobile Speak were different products. Also, as you say Mobile 
Accessibility for Windows Phone 8 only gives you a suite of accessible 
apps. this is very different from Talks, which was a 3rd party screen 
reader giving you access to the operating system and numerous apps on 
your smart phone.


I agree, sometimes Safari and VoiceOver is going to give you the best 
access to a web site, but I've also had trouble with this combination 
when Chrome or Orca and Firefox or some other combination gave me better 
results.




On 11/10/2013 05:36 PM, David Chittenden wrote:

Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.

The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in 
Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO 
struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite a 
bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles appear 
to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the form using 
right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual screen, it will 
not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However, there is a work-around 
that works for most websites I have tried. Physically find the edit field and 
hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual display. Split-tap with 
another finger and the edit box is locked in with the keyboard. Because of 
rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to then flick to the next edit 
field. In this case, locate the done button above the o and p letters on the 
keyboard and double-tap it. This releases the edit field and one can now locate 
the next edit field. Follow the same procedure. When finished with the form, 
locate the continue, submit, or otherly worded button and split-tap it.

again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many of 
these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not impossible, for 
computer-based screen readers.

In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone using the 
above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that Jaws cannot 
access on Windows and IE 10.

As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows Mobile 
phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically written 
app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the phone, so it 
will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone


On 11 Nov 2013, at 10:13, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:

Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

Ok, go to American Printing House for the Blind, www.aph.org and check out 
their braille android phone. I believe the cost is around $4000. It is a phone 
specifically developed for the blind. It's specific functions work well for the 
blind. You have your wish answered. Enjoy your $4000 Android phone.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 1:40, sen...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 7 
> that were not in IOS6. 
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
> compromised. 
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call but 
> it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain on 
> my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
> Nokia better. 
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
> will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
> Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
> challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
> IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald world 
> populated with buggy iphones!  
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Sieghard, what are you talking about?
So for you is not fir that I  complain when I feel that somebody is abusing 
when they decrees the quality of a product?
For example, in IOs 5, the typing emails or typing text messages, wasn't a 
problem, in IOs 6  either, but now in IOs 7  is very difficult. If not every 
body is getting the same problem, it doesn't mean that is not enough people 
getting the problem. I have seen this kind of complain in the list, several 
times. It was happening in the previous versions of IOs?

No, it didn't.
Now VO says after the screen is locked, "Screen locked"and seconds or 
minutes later, VO repeats the message.

It happened before?
No, it didn't.
When we receive a call, is easy to find the end button? is easy to finish 
the phone call?
No, it is not, is not one people getting this problem, is a lot of people 
saying the same thing. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Field a text box in a web site, is difficult, or some times impossible. If 
you don't do it, it doesn't means that it is not a bug. It means that you 
don't field text fields on web sites, it is all. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
Now when we are reading the list of emails, or what ever list of content, 
voice over jumps every where, and we have to cross the whole list of content 
again to find where we were before VO jump out.

it happened before?
No, it didn't.
Now, if we are playing a song, or audio book, or what ever kind of media, 
and we press the power button, VO says the track position. Before VO said 
the time. Now VO says the track position. It happened before?

No, it didn't.
I have taken the situation when VO stop talking, my phone is in silence for 
seconds, or minutes. Some times I have to turn off my phone, guessing 
pressing the power button for 10 seconds, and making a double tab on the 
screen, or just holding the power button for more than 10 seconds. What is 
happening?
No body knows, but I am looking emails of people who is getting pretty 
similar problems. it happened before?

No, it didn't!
How many, "no, It didn't", you want Sieghard?
. I understand that VO included new things in IOs 7, but why they have to 
break things that were working well before?
In my opinion, apple didn't care every detail in this last IOs. Now, I am 
talking about the problems with VO, and are so much more problems that are 
not in this email. But add to this list the problems  that people who is not 
voice over user is getting?
I am not saying that apple is not a good product. It is the better product 
right now. But they are not taking care of details, as they have done 
before. While Sangsum is improving and doing better phones every day, apple 
is not doing a good effort in this issue. So I am not talking about 
hardware, I am talking about IOs developers.
In the last 2  versions of IOs, they included new things, but they broke 
things that were working well before. One more thing, today we are in 
November 10, 2013. In one more year, you will see that we will be talking 
about new bugs, in the new IOs, and the bugs and problems that we are 
getting now, will not be fixed all of them when the new Ios comes, even 
though we will have to start, to restart again, with new bugs, and never we 
will be happy, because every year, they have a new IOs, and we have to 
restart the hard process of report bugs, bugs that some will be fix, but 
other never will be fix.
So Sieghard. In my opinion again. Apple makes great phones, but I can not 
say the same thing of the last IOs that I have seen. Remember Sieghard. I am 
very interested in a iPhone or an iPad working well. I am the owner of those 
devices. The difference is that I want that apple makes a better effort 
developing operated system. Our pressure to apple will be good for us, and 
for apple also. When you make pressure on somebody, you make that person 
stronger. When you make pressure on apple to fix these silly things that 
before didn't work bad, but now are not working well, it will make apple 
stronger. not Sangsum, not Sony, not Panasonic. Apple needs to do a best 
effort with this issue. It is for apple, more than for us.






- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sieghard Weitzel" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?



Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is 
in

general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where general

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[David Chittenden]

Thank you for that summary. I just started reading this thread.

The only point I can confirm is item 3. VO has a difficult time tracking in 
Safari when filling out complex forms. To be fair, many of the forms VO 
struggles with are also extremely difficult on the computer. They have quite a 
bit to do with newer web technologies. Other places where VO struggles appear 
to not move the visual page on the display as one flicks through the form using 
right flicks. When the button or edit box is not on the visual screen, it will 
not activate with a double or even, triple tap. However, there is a work-around 
that works for most websites I have tried. Physically find the edit field and 
hold your finger on it. This locks it on the visual display. Split-tap with 
another finger and the edit box is locked in with the keyboard. Because of 
rapid screen refreshes, it may be impossible to then flick to the next edit 
field. In this case, locate the done button above the o and p letters on the 
keyboard and double-tap it. This releases the edit field and one can now locate 
the next edit field. Follow the same procedure. When finished with the form, 
locate the continue, submit, or otherly worded button and split-tap it.

again, as I previously stated, because of the newer web technologies, many of 
these complex new web technologies are also complicated, if not impossible, for 
computer-based screen readers.

In Apple's favour, I have been able to access some forms on my iPhone using the 
above procedure, which people on certain lists have stated that Jaws cannot 
access on Windows and IE 10.

As for Talks and Nokia, the person can always go to the newest Windows Mobile 
phone and get the latest Mobile Speak for it. This is a specifically written 
app with six features in it. Nothing else can be accessed on the phone, so it 
will be very similar to the old Nokia with Talks.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Nov 2013, at 10:13, Sieghard Weitzel  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Here is my summary of this entire thread:
> 
> The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:
> 
> 1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
> save it to contacts
> 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
> 4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
> 
> Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
> general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
> work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
> accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
> number of ways.
> 
> As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
> way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
> to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
> argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
> this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
> to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
> phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
> that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
> twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
> Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
> downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
> that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
> choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
> free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
> there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
> getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.
> 
> Now, as to the 4 items above:
> 
> 1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
> I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
> just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
> least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
> was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
> a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
> There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
> is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
> right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
> As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
> up or is still connected.
> 
> 2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
> save it to contacts
> This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
> A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
> double tap and hold brings up the opt

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Michael Malver]

I agree with item 1. I also find often, since upgrading to OS 7.03, the 2
finger double tap doesn't properly hang up calls for me.

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:13 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts 3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
up or is still connected.

2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others
wrote also for them.
A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
the one who posted that all of this didn't work.

3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
government I usually ask first if they voted in the last election. More than
once somebody said that they don't vote in which case I usually tell them
that they might as well shut up then because if they don't participate in
electing the government then they have no right to complain. I am not saying
Avnish hasn't written to Apple to explain places where encounters problems,
but I see a lot of this on the list and I wonder if everybody also takes the
time to compose a constructive email to accessibil...@apple.com to make sure
they know about the issues.

4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
Well, what can I say, Ricardo already said it. Talks has been gone for some
time and no Nokia phone with Talks even at its best can do what the iPhone
can do or even get close to the level of accessibility iOs offers. It's of
course easier to offer accessibility for a device which has only half the
features of iOS. I remember trying to use Skype on my Windows Smartphone
with MobileSpeak and it was a complete

RE: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Sieghard Weitzel]

Hello,

Here is my summary of this entire thread:

The original poster complained about 3 items and pointed out a fourth:

1. Hanging up phone calls is unreliable
2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.

Then Pablo jumped in with his well-known rant about how horrible Apple is in
general because they make such expensive and terrible devices which don't
work, where people are forced to upgrade to iOS 7 and where generally
accessibility is terrible and where Pablo's "rights" are violated in a
number of ways.

As for Pablo's arguments, I have actually agreed with him in a very general
way that Apple should give people the option to say if they wanted a new iOS
to download automatically or not. At first I didn't see his point, but he
argued this point well and I agree there should be such an option. However,
this is in my view the only issue. Apple is not forcing anybody to upgrade
to iOS 7. Yes, they are pushing the update and it takes up space on your
phone, but you do not have to install it and I'll challenge anybody who says
that iOS 7 magically installed on their phone without them doing anything or
twice agreeing to the terms and conditions which simply does not happen. If
Apple were to allow down the road that one could turn off the automatic
downloading then nobody including Pablo could complain in any way because at
that point if they upgrade it is entirely their choice. It's already their
choice, but let's say somebody has an 8 Gb phone and they really need to
free up that space so they install it, that is just a little big of pressure
there even though you still decide to put up with iOS 7 in return for
getting back 2 Gb of space on your phone.

Now, as to the 4 items above:

1. Hanging up calls is unreliable
I actually find the 2-finger double tap works better in iOS 7 but that is
just my opinion. I think it's pretty safe to say though that it works at
least as well and I have up to this point and it's now 2 months since iOS 7
was released, not seen a single post where somebody asked about or mentioned
a problem with the 2-finger double tap to hang up.
There is of course the other way to hang up a call which works 100% and that
is to touch the End Cal lbutton which is really not hard to find as it's
right there about the ome Key and to double tap it.
As somebody else pointed out, it's not hard to check whether a call was hung
up or is still connected.

2. He can't tap on a phone number in a text message or email to dial it or
save it to contacts
This works flawlessly for me and judging by what others wrote also for them.
A simple double tap on a phone number asks me whether I want to call it, a
double tap and hold brings up the options to call, add to contacts etc. I'd
really like to see how this isn't working on Avnish's phone who I think was
the one who posted that all of this didn't work.

3. Filling out web forms is buggy.
This one I understand is an issue, I can't comment too much on it since I
don't use Safari much to fill out web forms. I have done a few Google
searches andwas able to type in a search term just find, the same on the
Audible site. Anyhow, if it is buggy then I sure hope those who find this so
horrible have written to Apple about it. To me this is like voting. If I
talk to somebody about politics and they start a big rant about the
government I usually ask first if they voted in the last election. More than
once somebody said that they don't vote in which case I usually tell them
that they might as well shut up then because if they don't participate in
electing the government then they have no right to complain. I am not saying
Avnish hasn't written to Apple to explain places where encounters problems,
but I see a lot of this on the list and I wonder if everybody also takes the
time to compose a constructive email to accessibil...@apple.com to make sure
they know about the issues.

4. Things worked better on his old Nokia with Talks.
Well, what can I say, Ricardo already said it. Talks has been gone for some
time and no Nokia phone with Talks even at its best can do what the iPhone
can do or even get close to the level of accessibility iOs offers. It's of
course easier to offer accessibility for a device which has only half the
features of iOS. I remember trying to use Skype on my Windows Smartphone
with MobileSpeak and it was a complete joke and waste of time. Apps were
almost non-existent and I wore out the battery cover on my phone because I
had to open it up so often to take the battery out when it crashed.

Apple has done more for main stream accessibility in the last 4 years than
all other companies combined in the last 25 years yet here people are
complaining about the horrible accessibility and how buying an expensive
phone apparently gives them the right to have perfect accessibility and
everything else. Next thing I'm sure peo

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Alex Hall]

We get it, Apple introduced bugs they haven’t fixed yet. Welcome to every 
computer ever made. If you have problems, you can email accessibil...@apple.com 
and detail them, as well as go to www.apple.com/feedback and report bugs you 
find.

As to quality control… Please tell me you’re joking. Do you have any idea what 
a high standard Apple has for hardware testing? For software, they offer betas 
of their upcoming operating systems for months, and release update after update 
to fix things that testers find. If you want to get in on that, pay the $100 
per year to become an iOS developer, then you can install iOS betas and test 
them out so you can report bugs.
On Nov 10, 2013, at 11:03 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:

> Yes, nothing is perfect. But it should not fail with things that has been 
> working well before. for example, if I buy a Rolex, it should not have 
> problems with the seconds, or been behind every day around 12 minutes. This 
> kind of problems are for machines that has a price of 5 cents, not 10 
> thousand dollars. If I buy a nice car, it is not perfect, but if this car is 
> a porshe, it should not have problems that the versions of this car, didn't 
> have. Where is the quality control on this products?
> Now, Apple is not paying people to see and catch the bugs before get out to 
> the customers?
> Why not?
> A thousand dollars by phone is not enough?
> Why the sighted and blind people is getting with IOs 7 more bugs, and worse 
> bugs than with the previous versions of IOs?
> In my opinion again, apple is more worry about get something to sale, instead 
> get good things to sale. Things with the price of an iPhone.
> Why I am buying apple devices?
> because voice over is much better than talk back on android, and because 
> iPhone is better than samgsum in many aspects. But it doesn't mean that I 
> should be happy when apple create IOs doing mistakes that they didn't before, 
> and breaking things that before were working fine. You know, Quality control.
> You, as every body, when you pay, you got the right to say, Hey, I don't like 
> it, and I want it working well. You pay for that, so as customer you have the 
> right to make complain about something that you are paying. More when they 
> sales it with the advertisement of the better phone, or the better IOs, on 
> the world and around the world, and of course, with the price, the higher 
> prices on the world, and around the world.
> Daily improvement. It means that I will learn of my mistakes today, to be 
> better every day. But with this last IOs 7, I don't feel that apple is 
> learning of their mistakes. They are more concern creating an IOs, than stop, 
> rift  and learn with the previous experiences.
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message ----- From: "Ricardo Walker" 
> To: "viphone" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> But you don’t have to buy it.  That’s the thing.  Just because you pay a high 
> price for something doesn’t mean it will be perfect.  For example, go buy a 
> Samsung Galaxy 4, and turn on Talkback.  This phone costs about the same as 
> an iPhone 5S.  I assure you this phone has bugs too.  If it has been 
> established that no public OS is bug free, why hold Apple to a standard that 
> no one else has ever achieved?  I’m not saying don’t be upset by bugs.  I’m 
> saying they are to be expected to a certain extent.  For all the bugs, how 
> many people actually return iPhones?  Not many I’ll tell you that.  I believe 
> they have a return rate under 2%.
> 
> 
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:21 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:
> 
>> Nope. I don't agree it.
>> Apple sales their toys at a very high price. As I said before, and iPhone 
>> today is more money that the money that the most part of the people on the 
>> world makes in one year. What does that mean for me?
>> If they are charging a very high price for their toys, they should offer 
>> good toys, and do not be hide behind the excuse that every IOs or every 
>> operated system, has bugs, it is a really poor excuse. Why it is a very poor 
>> excuse?
>> Every year apple start saying that they have a new IOs, it is the better 
>> IOs, it is the more advance operated system  in the galaxy, no body on the 
>> world, and around the world has a better operated system, and at the same 
>> time, they say that they will not provide more support to devices who 
>> doesn't have install IOs 7. So is mandatory has IOs 7 installed.
>> Now, every year, apple create a new IOs, and every creatio

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Yes, nothing is perfect. But it should not fail with things that has been 
working well before. for example, if I buy a Rolex, it should not have 
problems with the seconds, or been behind every day around 12 minutes. This 
kind of problems are for machines that has a price of 5 cents, not 10 
thousand dollars. If I buy a nice car, it is not perfect, but if this car is 
a porshe, it should not have problems that the versions of this car, didn't 
have. Where is the quality control on this products?
Now, Apple is not paying people to see and catch the bugs before get out to 
the customers?

Why not?
A thousand dollars by phone is not enough?
Why the sighted and blind people is getting with IOs 7 more bugs, and worse 
bugs than with the previous versions of IOs?
In my opinion again, apple is more worry about get something to sale, 
instead get good things to sale. Things with the price of an iPhone.

Why I am buying apple devices?
because voice over is much better than talk back on android, and because 
iPhone is better than samgsum in many aspects. But it doesn't mean that I 
should be happy when apple create IOs doing mistakes that they didn't 
before, and breaking things that before were working fine. You know, Quality 
control.
You, as every body, when you pay, you got the right to say, Hey, I don't 
like it, and I want it working well. You pay for that, so as customer you 
have the right to make complain about something that you are paying. More 
when they sales it with the advertisement of the better phone, or the better 
IOs, on the world and around the world, and of course, with the price, the 
higher prices on the world, and around the world.
Daily improvement. It means that I will learn of my mistakes today, to be 
better every day. But with this last IOs 7, I don't feel that apple is 
learning of their mistakes. They are more concern creating an IOs, than 
stop, rift  and learn with the previous experiences.




- Original Message - 
From: "Ricardo Walker" 

To: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Hi,

But you don’t have to buy it.  That’s the thing.  Just because you pay a 
high price for something doesn’t mean it will be perfect.  For example, go 
buy a Samsung Galaxy 4, and turn on Talkback.  This phone costs about the 
same as an iPhone 5S.  I assure you this phone has bugs too.  If it has been 
established that no public OS is bug free, why hold Apple to a standard that 
no one else has ever achieved?  I’m not saying don’t be upset by bugs.  I’m 
saying they are to be expected to a certain extent.  For all the bugs, how 
many people actually return iPhones?  Not many I’ll tell you that.  I 
believe they have a return rate under 2%.




Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:21 AM, Pablo Morales  
wrote:



Nope. I don't agree it.
Apple sales their toys at a very high price. As I said before, and iPhone 
today is more money that the money that the most part of the people on the 
world makes in one year. What does that mean for me?
If they are charging a very high price for their toys, they should offer 
good toys, and do not be hide behind the excuse that every IOs or every 
operated system, has bugs, it is a really poor excuse. Why it is a very 
poor excuse?
Every year apple start saying that they have a new IOs, it is the better 
IOs, it is the more advance operated system  in the galaxy, no body on the 
world, and around the world has a better operated system, and at the same 
time, they say that they will not provide more support to devices who 
doesn't have install IOs 7. So is mandatory has IOs 7 installed.
Now, every year, apple create a new IOs, and every creation brings bugs, 
problems, and bunches of things that are real problems for sighted and 
blind people. We have more than one month talking about it in the list. 
Apple doesn't learn of the previous experiences?

Apple is not paying attention to the mistakes that they did before?
Apple is giving job to new developers every year and giving lay off to the 
older developers, because every year, customers, sighted and blind, we 
have to be suffering the bugs of new operated systems, and when we come to 
the end of the year, we do not have every bug fixed, no, it never is 
cover, but we have to update to a new operated system, and start again.
In my opinion, the fault here is in our side. Apple is doing what the 
people wants. Apple is hearing people saying that, oh, no, every operated 
system has bugs, oh, no, it worse with the last IOs, instead heard people 
saying, hey apple, we do not accept it, and we are not going to update our 
devices until you do a better job. Every year, the bugs are worse and 
worse. Do you remember IOs 5?

It has bugs, of course, but do you remember when came IOs6?
It has more bugs than IOs 5, an

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Regina Alvarado]

Pablo, I have thought you had some valid points, but if you really believe IOS 
is so bad, why did you buy a 5? This complaining is getting old. Go to Android. 
You have that right. Did not know what the thread was about or I would have 
deleted. 


reggie and Allegra

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:27 AM, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:

If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you say. 
But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products. Of 
course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I pay a 
thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the accessibility, 
when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO? There 
are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well, some 
very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does not mean 
that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it seriously, 
because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean they don't care 
about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from any other aspect of 
Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they fix the bugs, they 
update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues. That's true of all 
software anywhere.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
> hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
> doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
> will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links, 
> flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking 
> you if you want to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a 
> bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it isn’t 
> broken.
> 
> Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse for 
> that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have very 
> short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it first 
> launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at launch.  
> There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  
> Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?  And 
> about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was running a dead OS, 
> a non existent app store in which I bet the accessible apps were slim 
> pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 
> bugs, and compare it to an operating system that no longer being supported, 
> that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
>> apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
>> every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs experiences, 
>> they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become the 
>> accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, I am 
>> getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the response 
>> that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor excuse, 
>> because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to access 
>> information with my apple devices.
>> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not more 
>> support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have to be 
>> suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to the 
>> end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: 
>> To: "ViPhone" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
>> Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?
>> 
>> 
>> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
>> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 
>> 7 that were not in IOS6.
>> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
>> compromised.
>> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Regina Alvarado]

'I will jump in here. I have found very little in 703 that I truly have a 
problem with, but if Appple really knew about the wifi issue om 4s and 4, that 
is by far the worst bug of them all Any other bug there ways to get around 
them, but to not tell people with 4s not to upgrade was unconcionable. I still 
would rather have Apple with their accessibility than need to buy my voice and 
maybe or maybe not have it work. Better watch how much you complain Pablo. 
Apple could decide we are too small a community to worry about! My problem has 
noathing to do with accessibility. All in all VO works well, and they keep 
improving it as we go along.


reggie and Allegra

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:27 AM, "Pablo Morales"  wrote:

If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you say. 
But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products. Of 
course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I pay a 
thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the accessibility, 
when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO? There 
are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well, some 
very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does not mean 
that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it seriously, 
because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean they don't care 
about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from any other aspect of 
Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they fix the bugs, they 
update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues. That's true of all 
software anywhere.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
> hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
> doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
> will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links, 
> flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking 
> you if you want to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a 
> bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it isn’t 
> broken.
> 
> Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse for 
> that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have very 
> short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it first 
> launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at launch.  
> There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  
> Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?  And 
> about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was running a dead OS, 
> a non existent app store in which I bet the accessible apps were slim 
> pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 
> bugs, and compare it to an operating system that no longer being supported, 
> that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
>> apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
>> every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs experiences, 
>> they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become the 
>> accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, I am 
>> getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the response 
>> that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor excuse, 
>> because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to access 
>> information with my apple devices.
>> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not more 
>> support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have to be 
>> suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to the 
>> end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: 
>> To: "ViPhone" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
>> Subject: When will Appl

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

It’s not about having the right or not having the right.  You can do and say 
whatever you want.  But it doesn’t change the facts.  Software can be easily 
fixed.  What sets Apple apart in many respects is their premium hardware.  
That’s why people pay high prices as well as the IOS ecosystem.  Hundreds of 
thousands of apps, and thousands of accessories.  That is what people are 
really paying for.  I honestly think you should pick up a cheap Android phone 
an compare.  I think then you will look at your iPhone, even with the faults of 
IOS a little more favorably. 

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:

> If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you say. 
> But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products. Of 
> course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I pay 
> a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the 
> accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
> Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
> To: 
> Cc: "viphone" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO? 
> There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well, 
> some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does 
> not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it 
> seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean 
> they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from 
> any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they 
> fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues. 
> That's true of all software anywhere.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
>> hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
>> doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
>> will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links, 
>> flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking 
>> you if you want to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not 
>> a bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it 
>> isn’t broken.
>> 
>> Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse for 
>> that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have very 
>> short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it 
>> first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at 
>> launch.  There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 
>> release.  Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s 
>> what?  And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was 
>> running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the accessible 
>> apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want 
>> to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an operating system that no longer 
>> being supported, that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.
>> 
>> JMO
>> 
>> Ricardo Walker
>> rica...@appletothecore.info
>> Twitter:@apple2thecore
>> www.appletothecore.info
>> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
>>> apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
>>> every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs 
>>> experiences, they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become 
>>> the accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, 
>>> I am getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the 
>>> response that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor 
>>> excuse, because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to 
>>> access information with my apple devices.
>>> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not 
>>> more support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have 
>>> to be suffering during the year

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[May and Noah]

Then if you don’t like it switch to something you do like and find easier to 
use. no one is holding a gun to your head and making you stay with apple 
products. 

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:

> If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you say. 
> But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products. Of 
> course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I pay 
> a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the 
> accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.
> Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Alex Hall" 
> To: 
> Cc: "viphone" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO? 
> There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well, 
> some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does 
> not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it 
> seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean 
> they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from 
> any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they 
> fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues. 
> That's true of all software anywhere.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
>> hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
>> doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
>> will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links, 
>> flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking 
>> you if you want to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not 
>> a bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it 
>> isn’t broken.
>> 
>> Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse for 
>> that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have very 
>> short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it 
>> first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at 
>> launch.  There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 
>> release.  Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s 
>> what?  And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was 
>> running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the accessible 
>> apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want 
>> to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an operating system that no longer 
>> being supported, that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.
>> 
>> JMO
>> 
>> Ricardo Walker
>> rica...@appletothecore.info
>> Twitter:@apple2thecore
>> www.appletothecore.info
>> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
>>> apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
>>> every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs 
>>> experiences, they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become 
>>> the accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, 
>>> I am getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the 
>>> response that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor 
>>> excuse, because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to 
>>> access information with my apple devices.
>>> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not 
>>> more support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have 
>>> to be suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to 
>>> the end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: 
>>> To: "ViPhone" 
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
>>> Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
>>&

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

But you don’t have to buy it.  That’s the thing.  Just because you pay a high 
price for something doesn’t mean it will be perfect.  For example, go buy a 
Samsung Galaxy 4, and turn on Talkback.  This phone costs about the same as an 
iPhone 5S.  I assure you this phone has bugs too.  If it has been established 
that no public OS is bug free, why hold Apple to a standard that no one else 
has ever achieved?  I’m not saying don’t be upset by bugs.  I’m saying they are 
to be expected to a certain extent.  For all the bugs, how many people actually 
return iPhones?  Not many I’ll tell you that.  I believe they have a return 
rate under 2%.

  

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:21 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:

> Nope. I don't agree it.
> Apple sales their toys at a very high price. As I said before, and iPhone 
> today is more money that the money that the most part of the people on the 
> world makes in one year. What does that mean for me?
> If they are charging a very high price for their toys, they should offer good 
> toys, and do not be hide behind the excuse that every IOs or every operated 
> system, has bugs, it is a really poor excuse. Why it is a very poor excuse?
> Every year apple start saying that they have a new IOs, it is the better IOs, 
> it is the more advance operated system  in the galaxy, no body on the world, 
> and around the world has a better operated system, and at the same time, they 
> say that they will not provide more support to devices who doesn't have 
> install IOs 7. So is mandatory has IOs 7 installed.
> Now, every year, apple create a new IOs, and every creation brings bugs, 
> problems, and bunches of things that are real problems for sighted and blind 
> people. We have more than one month talking about it in the list. Apple 
> doesn't learn of the previous experiences?
> Apple is not paying attention to the mistakes that they did before?
> Apple is giving job to new developers every year and giving lay off to the 
> older developers, because every year, customers, sighted and blind, we have 
> to be suffering the bugs of new operated systems, and when we come to the end 
> of the year, we do not have every bug fixed, no, it never is cover, but we 
> have to update to a new operated system, and start again.
> In my opinion, the fault here is in our side. Apple is doing what the people 
> wants. Apple is hearing people saying that, oh, no, every operated system has 
> bugs, oh, no, it worse with the last IOs, instead heard people saying, hey 
> apple, we do not accept it, and we are not going to update our devices until 
> you do a better job. Every year, the bugs are worse and worse. Do you 
> remember IOs 5?
> It has bugs, of course, but do you remember when came IOs6?
> It has more bugs than IOs 5, and now Ios 7  has more than Ios 6.
> So every year we are worse.
> But we have people saying that, oh, no, every Operated system has bugs.
> So apple is doing what the customers wants.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
> Group.
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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

If apple charge the same money than other business, I can agree what you 
say. But apple is not the cheaper or the standard  price for their products. 
Of course, I feel that I have right of say that I am in disagreement when I 
pay a thousand dollars for a phone, and I have to be fighting with the 
accessibility, when it was working better in previous versions of IOs.

Yes, I feel that I have right to be saying that I don't like it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Alex Hall" 

To: 
Cc: "viphone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO? 
There are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well, 
some very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does 
not mean that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it 
seriously, because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean 
they don't care about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from 
any other aspect of Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they 
fix the bugs, they update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues. 
That's true of all software anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:

Hi,

With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to 
links, flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog 
appears asking you if you want to call, text, or save the number to 
contacts.  This is not a bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s 
one thing.  But it isn’t broken.


Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse 
for that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list 
have very short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 
when it first launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of 
life at launch.  There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still 
on a .0 release.  Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can 
see what’s what?  And about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, 
it was running a dead OS, a non existent app store in which I bet the 
accessible apps were slim pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, 
if you want to take 3 or 4 bugs, and compare it to an operating system 
that no longer being supported, that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.


JMO

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  
wrote:


Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every 
time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility 
problems every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs 
experiences, they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become 
the accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 
7, I am getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But 
the response that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very 
poor excuse, because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems 
to access information with my apple devices.
Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not 
more support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have 
to be suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come 
to the end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.


- Original Message - From: 
To: "ViPhone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?


This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in 
ver 7 that were not in IOS6.
It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
compromised.
1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call 
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a 
drain on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call 
or message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 
year old Nokia better.
3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a 
iphone and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS 
versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with 
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for t

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Nope. I don't agree it.
Apple sales their toys at a very high price. As I said before, and iPhone 
today is more money that the money that the most part of the people on the 
world makes in one year. What does that mean for me?
If they are charging a very high price for their toys, they should offer 
good toys, and do not be hide behind the excuse that every IOs or every 
operated system, has bugs, it is a really poor excuse. Why it is a very poor 
excuse?
Every year apple start saying that they have a new IOs, it is the better 
IOs, it is the more advance operated system  in the galaxy, no body on the 
world, and around the world has a better operated system, and at the same 
time, they say that they will not provide more support to devices who 
doesn't have install IOs 7. So is mandatory has IOs 7 installed.
Now, every year, apple create a new IOs, and every creation brings bugs, 
problems, and bunches of things that are real problems for sighted and blind 
people. We have more than one month talking about it in the list. Apple 
doesn't learn of the previous experiences?

Apple is not paying attention to the mistakes that they did before?
Apple is giving job to new developers every year and giving lay off to the 
older developers, because every year, customers, sighted and blind, we have 
to be suffering the bugs of new operated systems, and when we come to the 
end of the year, we do not have every bug fixed, no, it never is cover, but 
we have to update to a new operated system, and start again.
In my opinion, the fault here is in our side. Apple is doing what the people 
wants. Apple is hearing people saying that, oh, no, every operated system 
has bugs, oh, no, it worse with the last IOs, instead heard people saying, 
hey apple, we do not accept it, and we are not going to update our devices 
until you do a better job. Every year, the bugs are worse and worse. Do you 
remember IOs 5?

It has bugs, of course, but do you remember when came IOs6?
It has more bugs than IOs 5, and now Ios 7  has more than Ios 6.
So every year we are worse.
But we have people saying that, oh, no, every Operated system has bugs.
So apple is doing what the customers wants.

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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Alex Hall]

In addition, do you really think iOS is perfect if you are not using VO? There 
are bugs in it and the new Mac OS  release for sighted people as well, some 
very long-standing. Just because there are bugs in accessibility does not mean 
that Apple doesn't care about accessibility or does not take it seriously, 
because if you extend that logic, then bugs anywhere must mean they don't care 
about any of their software. Voiceover is no different from any other aspect of 
Apple's products: it is mostly great, it has bugs, they fix the bugs, they 
update, more bugs come along, and the cycle continues. That's true of all 
software anywhere. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:01, Ricardo Walker  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
> hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap 
> doesn’t always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try 
> will do the trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links, 
> flick down to the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking 
> you if you want to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a 
> bug.  If you don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it isn’t 
> broken.
> 
> Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse for 
> that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have very 
> short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it first 
> launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at launch.  
> There have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  
> Can we at least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?  And 
> about the persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was running a dead OS, 
> a non existent app store in which I bet the accessible apps were slim 
> pickings indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 
> bugs, and compare it to an operating system that no longer being supported, 
> that’s fine.  But, anyone can do that.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Ricardo Walker
> rica...@appletothecore.info
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
>> apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
>> every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs experiences, 
>> they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become the 
>> accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, I am 
>> getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the response 
>> that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor excuse, 
>> because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to access 
>> information with my apple devices.
>> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not more 
>> support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have to be 
>> suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to the 
>> end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: 
>> To: "ViPhone" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
>> Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?
>> 
>> 
>> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
>> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 
>> 7 that were not in IOS6.
>> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
>> compromised.
>> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call 
>> but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain 
>> on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
>> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
>> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
>> Nokia better.
>> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
>> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
>> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
>> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
>> will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
>> Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
>> challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
>> IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald 
>> world populated with buggy iphones!
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
>> Group.
>> 
>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> 
>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@g

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

With respect, let me go through some of the things below.  In regards to 
hanging up a call.  Yes, I have notice that doing a 2 finger double tap doesn’t 
always hang up a call on the first try.  Generally, the second try will do the 
trick.  About phone numbers in a text, turn the rotor to links, flick down to 
the number, and double tap and hold.  A dialog appears asking you if you want 
to call, text, or save the number to contacts.  This is not a bug.  If you 
don’t like the way its now done that’s one thing.  But it isn’t broken.

Web forms?  Yes.  This is definitely buggy in IOS 7. There is no excuse for 
that.  But I will continue to say, I think some people on the list have very 
short memories.  Remember all the bugs that were found in IOS 6 when it first 
launched?  I’m sorry, bugs in software is just a fact of life at launch.  There 
have been a couple minor updates.  But we are still on a .0 release.  Can we at 
least hold off until 7.1 comes out so we can see what’s what?  And about the 
persons Nokia phone, last time I checked, it was running a dead OS, a non 
existent app store in which I bet the accessible apps were slim pickings 
indeed.  I say this just to point out, if you want to take 3 or 4 bugs, and 
compare it to an operating system that no longer being supported, that’s fine.  
But, anyone can do that.

JMO

Ricardo Walker
rica...@appletothecore.info
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info

On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Pablo Morales  wrote:

> Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
> apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
> every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs experiences, 
> they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become the accessibility 
> in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, I am getting the 
> same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the response that I found 
> is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor excuse, because with IOs 7, 
> is when I have been taking more problems to access information with my apple 
> devices.
> Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not more 
> support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have to be 
> suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to the end 
> of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.
> 
> - Original Message - From: 
> To: "ViPhone" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
> Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?
> 
> 
> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 7 
> that were not in IOS6.
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
> compromised.
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call but 
> it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain on 
> my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
> Nokia better.
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
> will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
> Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
> challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
> IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald world 
> populated with buggy iphones!
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google 
> Group.
> 
> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com.
> 
> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> 
> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing 
> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com.
> 
> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing 
> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> 
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> 
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> http://www.mail

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Billy Maynard]

hi,

This's not unique to apple or ios.  Anytime generlay anything is upgraded to 
take advantage of new tecknology you'll have bugs just due to the large 
ammount of work that goes into an oporating system.  If they waited till it 
was fully debugged they'd not role one out every year.  Granted I'd love 
that I'm kinda old school if it's not broke don't fix it.  in my openion 
windows peaked with xp and apple peaked with teh  4s  Reguardless all you 
can really do is report bugs and wait.  I don't think we'l stop development 
of new oporating systems totake advantage of new tecknology.  Pluss the 
developers won't wait till it's fully debugged because I'm sure it goes 
through a prossess like that but, all the bugs won't be realised untill it's 
out in the field and people make individual use of it and all it's various 
functions.  I'm not happy about how things owrk eather but,  they're not 
likely to change unless new tecknology stops being developed.


Sincerely,
Billy Maynard

P.S. I don't emedieltly upgrade  to the  latest anything as soon as it's out 
to parshaly not run into the problums.
- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pablo Morales" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: When will Apple take this seriously?


Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every 
time apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility 
problems every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs 
experiences, they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become 
the accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, 
I am getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the 
response that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor 
excuse, because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to 
access information with my apple devices.
Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not 
more support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have 
to be suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come 
to the end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.


- Original Message - 
From: 

To: "ViPhone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?


This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in 
ver 7 that were not in IOS6.
It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
compromised.
1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call 
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a 
drain on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year 
old Nokia better.
3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a 
iphone and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS 
versions will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with 
us. Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the 
visually challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that 
works. With IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome 
to a bald world populated with buggy iphones!


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More VIPhon

Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Pablo Morales]

Yes, it is that I have been saying since IOs 6  came. Looks like every time 
apple write a new code, with new developers, and the accessibility problems 
every time are worse. They are not learning of the previous IOs experiences, 
they are not paying attention to it, or they want to become the 
accessibility in something that another company will care. With IOs 7, I am 
getting the same problems than you, and bunches of others. But the response 
that I found is that every IOs brings bugs. It is a very poor excuse, 
because with IOs 7, is when I have been taking more problems to access 
information with my apple devices.
Apple wants that every year, every body update the IOs, saying that not more 
support for older versions of the IOs, but at the same time, we have to be 
suffering during the year, the bugs that every IOs brings, we come to the 
end of the year, and start again with another IOs. It is not fir.


- Original Message - 
From: 

To: "ViPhone" 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:40 AM
Subject: When will Apple take this seriously?


This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 
7 that were not in IOS6.
It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
compromised.
1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call 
but it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain 
on my wallet due to large long distance call charges.
2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
Nokia better.
3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald 
world populated with buggy iphones!


--
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Group.


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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[May and Noah]

I haven’t had any of these problems.

In fact some things that annoyed me work better with this version. Other things 
like the calendar had to get use to the layout.

May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca

On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:40 AM, sen...@gmail.com wrote:

> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 7 
> that were not in IOS6. 
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
> compromised. 
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call but 
> it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain on 
> my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
> Nokia better. 
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
> will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
> Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
> challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
> IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald world 
> populated with buggy iphones!  
> 
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Re: When will Apple take this seriously?

[Alex Hall]

Ending calls works fine for me. Also, if you get VO to say anything, you can 
tell right away if a call is active or not. When you are on a call, VO has the 
same sound quality as the call, which is very different from how it sounds 
normally. Also, what problems do you have entering data on a form? Perhaps it 
is a case of being unsure how something works? I don’t do a lot with Safari, so 
I may have missed this particular bug. I can save/call phone numbers in 
messages very easily, what trouble do you have there?
On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:40 AM, sen...@gmail.com wrote:

> This is very frustrating. Hordes of emails have circulated with the many 
> shortcomings of IOS7. Many bugss and shortcomings that have appeared in ver 7 
> that were not in IOS6. 
> It becomes very frustrating when even the basic phone functions are 
> compromised. 
> 1. Ending calls is a pain. Countless times I thought I had ended the call but 
> it was active. This has lead to embarrassing situations and also a drain on 
> my wallet due to large long distance call charges. 
> 2. When I get phone numbers in a text message, I should be able to call or 
> message or store the number with a tap. No! I could do it with my 6 year old 
> Nokia better. 
> 3. Entering data in a web form has become a nightmare. With my previous 
> phones running Talks I could do much better. I pay 10 times to get a iphone 
> and guess what? I can do less with it! Very frustrating.
> This list could go on and on. . . . New models will launch, new IOS versions 
> will roll out. . . But the shortcomings and bugs will stick with us. 
> Technology for the sake of technology. But no technology for the visually 
> challenged. Wish someone would charge more but make a phone that works. With 
> IOS7 AND IPHONE all one can do is pull ones hair out, welcome to a bald world 
> populated with buggy iphones!  
> 
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Have a great day,
Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
mehg...@gmail.com



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