Just to add my UKP0.02 worth...
I'd moved my entire system from the dining room recently (SB3, Arcam
Black Box 50, Yamaha DSP-A592, Eltax Symphony 6) as I needed to use it
elsewhere (and took the opportunity to have a tidy-up). When I
reconnected I just did a minimal setup as I'm moving house in
Squirrel Wrote:
Just to add my UKP0.02 worth...
I'd moved my entire system from the dining room recently (SB3, Arcam
Black Box 50, Yamaha DSP-A592, Eltax Symphony 6) as I needed to use it
elsewhere (and took the opportunity to have a tidy-up). When I
reconnected I just did a minimal setup
OK I swapped back the ic's and there was no noticable difference,
wishful thinking born out of desperation perhaps?
I think Mr Floding was closest to finding a solution. my electric
mains is poor... there may have been a ground loop, Ive got an old
farmhouse badly in need of rewiring.
Lyonesse Wrote:
OK I swapped back the ic's and there was no noticable difference,
wishful thinking born out of desperation perhaps?
I think Mr Floding was closest to finding a solution. my electric
mains is poor... there may have been a ground loop, Ive got an old
farmhouse badly in
ceejay Wrote:
As a regular lurker and very occasional contributor in this forum, I
don't think its dead at all... I enjoy the sparring between viewpoints
which can never be reconciled, and which only sometimes get out of
hand.
i'm mainly a lurker as well, but i really enjoy reading the
Patrick Dixon Wrote:
Compared to World Peace, jitter is completely irrelevent.
Off topic, but it reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once: Visualize
Whirled Peas
--
TiredLegs
TiredLegs's Profile:
Patrick Dixon wrote:
I'm with Pat.
Compared to World Peace, jitter is completely irrelevent.
Wow, that's a thread-stopper, if ever I've seen one.
I'll get me coat.
R.
___
audiophiles mailing list
audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com
Robin Bowes Wrote:
Patrick Dixon wrote:
I'm with Pat.
Compared to World Peace, jitter is completely irrelevent.
Wow, that's a thread-stopper, if ever I've seen one.
I'll get me coat.
R.
Nah..
I can put up with a very minor war if it finally solves the jitter
problem...
--
P
pfarrell Wrote:
opaqueice wrote:
Even if you round the numbers against it, calling it 12 years
and say that Moore's law is 2 year cycles, you should expect
2^6 = 64 times better in 12 years.
Moore's law's got nothing to do with it - we're talking about the
same
old spdif over the
pfarrell Wrote:
P Floding wrote:[color=blue]
I'm not convinced that jitter is an issue this century.
--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html
Pat - if that is the case, why (in your opinion) do digital transports
sound different when connected to the same
opaqueice Wrote:
Toslink doesn't have enough bandwidth. Read the first paragraph of
this:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/index2.html
or before, if you want more detail on how bandwidth limitations affect
jitter.
I believe the article talks about some, at the time,
P Floding Wrote:
I believe the article talks about some, at the time, typical
implementation. Other implementations may behave differently. It also
describes problems, such as impedence mismatches, related to the coax
interface.
I'm not sure how much things have changed - toslink is
pfarrell Wrote:
So while the article is interesting, it is ancient.
Nearly 13 years is forever in digital signal processing times.
Even if you round the numbers against it, calling it 12 years
and say that Moore's law is 2 year cycles, you should expect
2^6 = 64 times better in 12 years.
opaqueice wrote:
Even if you round the numbers against it, calling it 12 years
and say that Moore's law is 2 year cycles, you should expect
2^6 = 64 times better in 12 years.
Moore's law's got nothing to do with it - we're talking about the same
old spdif over the same old cable, not
seanadams Wrote:
Normally i wouldn't care, but this thread has degenerated to the point
where it's totally off-putting to new visitors. I was just thinking we
should exhaust other possible areas of improvement before considering
potpourri placement...
If we can't offer Jack any more
P Floding Wrote:
Sean,
I think the Audiophile section is almost dead due to a few contributors
attacking pretty much any question or suggestion with demands that you
prove this, and explain that. I seriously doubt this brigade are even
audiophiles.
I don't think the tone here is at all
I seriously doubt this brigade are even audiophiles.
What does that mean? How does one determine if he or she qualifies as
an audiophile? Do I have to use $200 power cords, freeze-dried
cables and battery powered DAC's to qualify? Is blindly following
baseless marketing hype required?
Lavender Pot-pourri what a wonderful idea! ...not some cheap nasty
stuff from Asda mind fresh Organic, grown in the garden and watered
by pure summer showers!.ah! ;)
Sean Im done here if you wanna wind it up.
All Best
Jack.
--
Lyonesse
pfarrell Wrote:
I think it is time to change the Audiophiles list/forum
to be moderated.
snip
In its current form, the Audiophile forum is dead and off-putting
to new and old customers.
It's plainly not true that the forum is dead; off-putting is a matter
of opinion, and frankly it's
As a regular lurker and very occasional contributor in this forum, I
don't think its dead at all... I enjoy the sparring between viewpoints
which can never be reconciled, and which only sometimes get out of
hand.
Bear in mind that the slim forums as a whole are some of the best
behaved and most
The main problem is that many audiophiles are NOT engineers, and surely
they must get tired of hearing how stupid they are for spending money
on this and that?
Would it be so difficult for those technically inclined to abstain from
telling people off? It is even more embarrising when they
The forum already is moderated.
--
dwc
dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613
P Floding Wrote:
The main problem is that many audiophiles are NOT engineers, and surely
they must get tired of hearing how stupid they are for spending money
on this and that?
Would it be so difficult for those technically inclined to abstain from
telling people off? It is even more
CardinalFang Wrote:
I think there is a general problem with bulletin boards in that the
majority of the message is always missing - the facial expressions, the
tone of voice and the inbuilt politeness that most people have. This one
is better than most, people do apologise if they believe
I suspect Sean's objections were to the rather rude remarks being directed at the original poster. I did not get the impression he had a problem with the debate otherwise. Perhaps I mis-read his e-mail.
On 7/6/06, Phil Leigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
CardinalFang Wrote: I think there is a general
CardinalFang Wrote:
I think there is a general problem with bulletin boards in that the
majority of the message is always missing - the facial expressions, the
tone of voice and the inbuilt politeness that most people have.
You're right, and I think another aspect of it is the anonymity -
Lyonesse Wrote:
I have listened for hours now to different configurations, with the way
my dac is designed its been easy to do side by side comparisons between
the Toslink and my VDH digital Coax by simply switching between them on
the fly.
To get all potential benefits from Toslink you
What's fanboy-ism?
--
Phil Leigh
Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613
Phil Leigh wrote:
One note of caution - the Faraday cage has very low WAF...
No, no, no. It's not a Faraday Cage at all. Completely the wrong
name for this. Call it an Antique, Burnished Copper, Flowering Vine
Trellis. All the rage in English garden clubs. A must have for every
home.
fuzzyT Wrote:
Phil Leigh wrote:
One note of caution - the Faraday cage has very low WAF...
No, no, no. It's not a Faraday Cage at all. Completely the wrong
name for this. Call it an Antique, Burnished Copper, Flowering Vine
Trellis. All the rage in English garden clubs. A must
Phil Leigh wrote:
I'm still having some trouble explaining 1Tb of external disks as
somewhere to keep all of our digital photos...
Oh, that sounds like a Treasury of Precious Memories.
Don't forget the flowered dust ruffle (sound-proofing) and doily (drink
coaster). Bonus points for
fuzzyT Wrote:
Phil Leigh wrote:
I'm still having some trouble explaining 1Tb of external disks as
somewhere to keep all of our digital photos...
Oh, that sounds like a Treasury of Precious Memories.
Don't forget the flowered dust ruffle (sound-proofing) and doily (drink
coaster).
Normally i wouldn't care, but this thread has degenerated to the point
where it's totally off-putting to new visitors. I was just thinking we
should exhaust other possible areas of improvement before considering
potpourri placement...
If we can't offer Jack any more constructive guidance, what
Sorry - I forgot this was supposed to be a serious business.
--
Phil Leigh
Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613
Lyonesse Wrote:
Everyone is different and their listening approach is also different,I
dont wanna get bogged down with the do's and donts of my testing. The
squeezebook is another innovative but ultimately unmusical creation...
Ive gone over to laptop as pc server with a hagerman usb / spdif
As the first one to reply to this thread I would like to come in again
near the end...
325xi Wrote:
The only reason for properly functioning SB to sound bad is owner's
technical ignorance, no offence intended of course.
I think we should try and avoid criticism of people asking for help.
ajmitchell Wrote:
Personally, I like the sound from the SB3 but I wouldn't say everyone
has to like it, or that it cannot be improved. My g/f cannot hear the
difference between a $500 setup and my $5000 setup - but I have learned
the hard way not to point this out too often ;) [You might say
325xi wrote:
ajmitchell Wrote:
If would rather say he wants to sell the bimmer because he did not like
the interiorwhich to me is totally acceptable if you only realise
the interior isn't ideal later.
That's fine, but here he sold bimmer because he likes civic's interior
more. That,
325xi Wrote:
SB is just a transmitter (assuming it feeds an outboard DAC), and a
good one. It doesn't, and shouldn't, have it's own sound.Maybe it shouldn't,
but in fact it does.
--
Patrick Dixon
www.at-tunes.co.uk
325xi wrote:
Although I don't
believe in too cheap analog stuff. SB is just a transmitter (assuming
it feeds an outboard DAC), and a good one. It doesn't, and shouldn't,
have it's own sound.
Not so.
A digital source still transmits digital data to an external DAC
synchronously over an
Patrick Dixon Wrote:
Maybe it shouldn't, but in fact it does.
The only thing you can do to it is to lower its jitter, but jitter-only
related changes are subtle (how much lower you can get it?), and I'm
doubt they will have two dramatically different own sounds. It will
be the same with subtle
Hi Patrick
Did you used to live in that beautiful old timber framed house near the
institute (the Sylvester Horne institute i think).
Im going to shoot over to Gary's house in telford to listen to your SB+
sometime at the beginning of August (when my new dac is burnt in)...we
will also compare
Robin
You would be very welcome to drop in next time your around, drop me an
email! :)
Jack
--
Lyonesse
Lyonesse's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5496
View this thread:
Lyonesse Wrote:
Did you used to live in that beautiful old timber framed house near the
institute (the Sylvester Horne institute i think).
Sylvester Horne - that's right!
No, it's called Ashford House, and it's the town house immediately left
of the SH Institute as you look at it from the
inguz Wrote:
I would *love* a Faraday cage lining the house walls. Really :-)
Indeed! just think - nobody can catch you on your work mobile!
(sorry, reception round here is really terrible...)
No need to worry about wireless lan security!
Only downside I can think of - would make surfing /
One note of caution - the Faraday cage has very low WAF...
--
Phil Leigh
Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613
OK ive checked with John Wood, a friend of my dads and the engineer on
Nick Drake's albums. He says (and I quote) that its very easy to hear
the sonic differences between digital interconnects a test for this
comparison can be done in the studio without problem. So far as
Sibilence, it is all
Sibilance is easily avoided in the studio using good mics mic
technique, sensible EQ and (where necessary) a suitable de-esser.
And I'd be a bit more circumspect Jack - there are some people on this
forum with a lot of professional audio experience.
As for digital cables affecting frequency
Lyonesse Wrote:
Adios Friends
apart from you Jsonnabend ...you rude fucker!
Jack- I thought you were leaving? Now that you've figured out we're
all idiots, maybe your Daddy's friend can help you.
-Ben
--
Ben Diss
Phil Leigh Wrote:
Sibilance is easily avoided in the studio using good mics mic
technique, sensible EQ and (where necessary) a suitable de-esser.
And I'd be a bit more circumspect Jack - there are some people on this
forum with a lot of professional audio experience.
As for digital
P Floding Wrote:
Jitter can and does give an impression of altered frequency response,
i.e emphasized or deemphasized parts of the frequency spectrum.
Interesting...
Is an impression the same as actual though? I'm saying that the actual
FR is unchanged unless the bits change and my TACT tests
Yes please let it go! LOL I had a listening session last night that
has just ended (its 7.30 in the morning) and im as happy as larry!
Deaf Cat hi... this Lacie is definately a Seagate, perhaps theyve
changed their suppliers?
Good point about the Nos dac DWC that was one of my first bits of
OK - I'm letting it go.
Last night a visiting audiophile from the planet Tharg dropped by and
installed a Faraday cage around my house. The immediate reduction in
background hash was dramatic and obvious. Apparently on Tharg these are
all the rage and the best ones are rhodium plated. However,
I would *love* a Faraday cage lining the house walls. Really :-)
--
inguz
inguz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1139
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24613
apart from you Jsonnabend ...you rude fucker!
Thanks, Jack, for the kind words. Have I struck a nerve?
In any event, your thoughts of well being mean a lot to me, coming as
they do from a man who thinks digital interconnects can warm sound
and that stereo components can introduct sibilance.
3 days is too early to judge SB3. You need to burn in.
I have the same impression when I received mine last week. After 10
hours usage, it sounds much better. I will compare it with transport
after 50 hours usage.
--
Roy2001
Who cares about the in's and out's Im listening to music again for
hours on end and thats all that matters!
listening to battery powered kit (including my laptop) has been a
revelation and would be worth 10 car batterys in the living room.. dont
knock it till youve tried it.
It may be that
BTW Ive recently bought (still waiting for delivery) a 300w inverter,
soon the sun will be powering my music through our roof top solar
array.
Im sure the psychological benefits of this will convert to even higher
musical appreciation.
--
Lyonesse
If using your solar panels will really provide psychological benefits
leading to better sounding music to your ears, then I suggest you're
readily influenced by extraneous factors. Maybe you were kidding, but
I doubt it.
Jack, let me guess. You read a lot of literature before shopping for
and
Hi Jeff
Dont underestimate personal well being as a psychological precondition
to enjoying your music...including how your listening room is
decorated... soft lighting, furnishings etc.
The Squeezebox is the ONLY audio item that ive ever bought without
listening to it first, having been swept
Lyonesse Wrote:
Since starting this thread fortunately ive had emails from others
generally agreeing with my main point... Brightness and sibilence in
the HF register leading to digititis.
There are even more hearing the Squeezebox digital-out sounds bright
!!??
Man i get old and deaf ;(
JSonnabend Wrote:
If using your solar panels will really provide psychological benefits
leading to better sounding music to your ears, then I suggest you're
readily influenced by extraneous factors. Maybe you were kidding, but
I doubt it.
- Jeff
Anyone that believes they *aren't*
opaqueice Wrote:
Anyone that believes they *aren't* influenced by extraneous factors is
the one that may need their head examined. We're talking about
something so subjective it's given rise to refrigerated cables the
guy doesn't enjoy his SB, fine. He's not saying it's bad, or that
Lyonesse Wrote:
I use a lacie USB external which incorporates a Seagate hard drive. I
always buy seagate because ive never been let down (so far) by them.
:)
Sorry if a bit off course, but I was under the impression that Lacie
used Maxtor hdd's, maybe mine's an older one.
Still, once it
dwc Wrote:
It sounds like the newly revealed detail in the music was too much for
Jack, and perhaps the full-range sound as well. I know the game's over
for you, but I would have asked that you try a non-os dac before ebaying
the SB.
+1
--
--
JSonnabend
JSonnabend Wrote:
The point is, simply, that if one is trying to analyze how a particular
piece of equipment sounds, he would be best served by eliminating
extraneous factors that may bias the analysis. That's the whole point
behind ABX testing. If one comes to an audition substantially
Lyonesse Wrote:
I also used my pc straight into the dac using foobar2000 (44.1khz 16
bit) through my spdif soundcard. and was able to add my cdp to the mix
using both toslink and Coax options.
Really interesting. Even when you set 44.1/16 in foobar your Trust
soundcard resamples if you
Everyone is different and their listening approach is also different,I
dont wanna get bogged down with the do's and donts of my testing. The
squeezebook is another innovative but ultimately unmusical creation...
Ive gone over to laptop as pc server with a hagerman usb / spdif
converter,
Lyonesse Wrote:
Everyone is different and their listening approach is also different,I
dont wanna get bogged down with the do's and donts of my testing. The
squeezebook is another innovative but ultimately unmusical creation...
Ive gone over to laptop as pc server with a hagerman usb / spdif
lets call it sound with emotional integrity for want of a better name
Let's call it the sound you're already accustomed to. You audiophile
guys crack me up. Have fun with your car battery in the living room.
BTW, have you compared (blindly) the HagUSB against any other USB audio
devices? I
Jack,
Your SB or interconnects must be faulty.
The SB is NOT sibilant and has a quite smooth mid-top response via
its analogue outputs - this is easily measured, hearable and provable.
Its digital output is flat eq-wise (as the laws of physics dictate).
There is no PC audio card (even M-audio -
I have listened for hours now to different configurations, with the way
my dac is designed its been easy to do side by side comparisons between
the Toslink and my VDH digital Coax by simply switching between them on
the fly.
I also used my pc straight into the dac using foobar2000 (44.1khz 16
Jack
I've used an HTPC/FooBar/M-Audio 24-96/External DAC setup with good
results but with a little effort (money!) I think you will be able to
improve on that. The standard Sqeezebox offers excellent potential, an
SB2 did pretty well against my modified Wadia 270/27ix, have a read of
this thread
Phil
Im going to have another go at making comparisons tonight, I bought a
Toslink cable so will be able to add that to the mix. So far my
listening tests have been 'inconclusive' *cough* :)
Jack.
--
Lyonesse
Patrick Dixon Wrote:
I just delivered one to someone in Telford, and my parents still live in
Shrewsbury. I've also lived in Church Stretton and Newport (Salop),
long ago in my youth ...
Jack
I'm the person Patrick is referring to, I have had an SB+ for several
weeks now, drop me an email
Hi phil
I swapped my interconnects around from the dac to the amp so the left
channel is now the right channel etc. The result is surprisingly less
sibilence, more dynamic slam and authority especially in the bass and
really a transformation from what I percieved to be a thin, austere and
Lyonesse Wrote:
1... Music coming from my hard drive instead of my cdp has proved to be
a big improvement...when using foobar, with the SB3 this has been
compromised by brightness.
The only way your audio stream passing from Foobar to your DAC is not
being coloured is if you have Foobar set
Hi Phil
I will swap back later this evening and have a listen! If it has been
an illusion its been an ear relaxingly nice one :)
Can you recommend a decent Toslink?
jack.
--
Lyonesse
Lyonesse's Profile:
Jack - I'm fascinated to get to the bottom of this one - I await your
post with interest.
As for toslink (at the risk of much ridicule) I'd say anything will do
and the shorter the better. Toslink and coax SPDIF are fundamentally
different regarding RFI and edge transition issues. Provided the
Jack - can you confirm exactly what you did? - did you swap the
interconnects left/right between your AB and amp? or did you swap the
speaker cables +/-?
And is it clearly repeatable - if you swap back, does the sibilance
come back?
--
Phil Leigh
FWIW, I had a sibilence problem when I first got my SB2. Replaced the
stock power supply with an Elpac linear supply and the sibilence went
away.
--
PhilNYC
Sonic Spirits Inc.
http://www.sonicspirits.com
PhilNYC's
I wanted to end this thread by pointing out a solution that may or may
not work with your system if you have been suffering from the same
problems. This little fix has been marvelous for me! It has brought
real audio quality to what I considered to be at first a bright,
austere and
Lyonesse Wrote:
I simply changed my interconnects around (black to red, red to black) on
my dac. I cant explain why but this simple thing has toned down
sibilence and created a much more dynamic punchy sound without the
wearyness that quickly took over any listening pleasure.
Perhaps the act
Lyonesse Wrote:
I Use EAC to rip my CD's into wav files, (I use the action / test and
copy selected tracks option in EAC). I then run through each track
correcting glitches)
It sounds to me that if you want true audiophile copies of your CDs you
are going to have to rip them all again
Lyonesse wrote:
Im not knocking the SB3 in any way, I just want to find a way to
integrate it into my system better so as to kick back and chillout with
my new toy ;)
Have you tried using the SB3's analog outputs?
It won't cost anything to try this and you may find that they sound
better
Thanks Wombat, no more glitch removal shenanigans for me thats for
sure!. I was using a cheap trust card with digital coaxial out,
everything turned off in software except the spdif. i bought this
especially to enable listening through my Hi-Fi.
Hi Patrick Im taking a good long look at your
Lyonesse Wrote:
Hi Patrick Im taking a good long look at your website, I live in
Shropshire. :)I just delivered one to someone in Telford, and my parents
still live in
Shrewsbury. I've also lived in Church Stretton and Newport (Salop),
long ago in my youth ...
--
Patrick Dixon
Lyonesse Wrote:
Thanks Wombat, no more glitch removal shenanigans for me thats for
sure!. I was using a cheap trust card with digital coaxial out,
everything turned off in software except the spdif. i bought this
especially to enable listening through my Hi-Fi.
Jack.
Aha! Cheap Trust
Wombat - that all makes sense, but IME 48k resampling = rubbish sound
when done cheaply (ie badly)...
I can't get my head round Lyonesse saying that he thinks the digital
out of the SB into a (good) DAC is sibilant/bright...it just isn't. If
anything its a bit warm...?
Others on this board have
just to add my bit to the thread..
I finally got to try my SB3 against my CD player (Arcam alpha 5+)in a
proper blind test with my blind audiophile friend.
He instantly chose the CD from SB3 but also declared the SB3 quite
acceptable for day to day listening. I played FLAC, 320kbps MP3 and 192
Koenraadr Wrote:
just to add my bit to the thread..
I finally got to try my SB3 against my CD player (Arcam alpha 5+)in a
proper blind test with my blind audiophile friend.
He instantly chose the CD from SB3 but also declared the SB3 quite
acceptable for day to day listening. I played
If you're not enjoying that SB3 yet, I'll give you $50 plus shipping for
it...
TD
--
tyler_durden
tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701
View this thread:
Hiya Jack,
Hope your getting your bits/ripping sorted.
Glad to hear your dac is more chilled than the dac1, just started
looking into dacs and good to hear opinions.
If I ever heard mellow, chilled out, kicked back, etc in a digi coax it
would be this one:
http://tinyurl.com/epemj
FAB! for
Totally off the general line of discussion I know, but just a way off
thought, have you any other digi coax's just to swap over see if that
makes any difference...
I was not impressed when I first pluged in my SB, but I eventually
found that upgrading my IC between pre/power (it was a basic
I wonder if maybe Foobar2000 is applying a gain adjustment and the SB3
is not? Both playback systems can apply replaygain, but the gain tags
have to be present in your files.
--
Pale Blue Ego
Pale Blue Ego's Profile:
Hi
Thanks for all your thoughts and advice on this issue.
What Im really talking about here is the subjective enjoyment of music,
a difficult thing to quantify... To sum it up.. I want to listen to 4 or
5 albums in a row rather than the 1 or 2 at present before the dreaded
digital wearyness
Lyonesse Wrote:
What Im really talking about here is the subjective enjoyment of music,
a difficult thing to quantify... To sum it up.. I want to listen to 4
or 5 albums in a row rather than the 1 or 2 at present before the
dreaded digital wearyness sets in. Music stored on hard disk rather
About switching to a new digital coax - I'd be very skeptical that that
will make the sound less bright... about all it can do is change the
jitter spectrum, which can have unpredictable effects if any, but it
shouldn't do anything so simple as damp HF.
JJZolx Wrote:
I've never heard of
1... Music coming from my hard drive instead of my cdp has proved to be
a big improvement...when using foobar, with the SB3 this has been
compromised by brightness.
2... But from reading through numerous positive threads here and SB3
reviews in Stereophile amongst others I have to assume that the
All this deglitch program does is looking for typical forms in the
waveform that may sound like a digital glitch. It can´t tell you it
really is a glitch. Try this deglitch with dynamic synthesizer music.
It will be fooled all the time and will detect many glitches that
really are sharp dynamic
1 - 100 of 108 matches
Mail list logo
