Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:31:12 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: But don't people still try to remember the dead. Or stay alive longer, extending life, getting plastic surgery. etc? Sure. But I'm not sure what you're driving at. You had mentioned the Egyptian obsession with immortality. I'm driving at the idea that many human beings have this desire in different ages. Dave: I don't actually think the essential spiritual needs of humans have changed all that much over time. Gilberto: I would agree but then what is the logical consequence. If a certain set of practices was able to address and satisfy the essential spiritual needs of people at one point in time, wouldn't it be possible for people to continue to embrace those principles and still have those needs met? Well sure, it might be possible. But it doesn't seem very likely to me, given the progression of human consciousness over the ages. Perhaps you remember in the 60s, one of the most prominent criticisms by young people of mainstream religion was that it seemed irrelevant to them. This led to a slew of new forms of worship, from guitars in mass to street churches. Religion evolves. Religion strives to remain relevant. Even in the first few centuries of Christianity, Arius used music and songs to spread his message. And I'm pretty sure that street churches where long-haired hippies go around in public openly proclaiming the gospel are alot older than the kind with pews : ) Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Perennial Bab?
Gilberto: You had mentioned the Egyptian obsession with immortality. I'm driving at the idea that many human beings have this desire in different ages. Well, yeah. But that's merely stating the obvious. I don't see your point. Gilberto: I'm pretty sure that street churches where long-haired hippies go around in public openly proclaiming the gospel are alot older than the kind with pews : ) I totally agree, and I think that's a completely valid kind of religion. This began with you saying that if one kind of religion is valid at one time and place, it ought to be valid at all times and all places, and that's what we disagree on. Bahá'u'lláh clearly says that religion will continue to evolve, and that in the future another Manifestation will come. It seems to me that you have a problem with the idea of mankind maturing and becoming able to internalize greater portions of God's revelation - which, according to Bahá'í belief, is ultimately and forever beyond the capacity of man to fully understand. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:36:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I'm pretty sure that street churches where long-haired hippies go around in public openly proclaiming the gospel are alot older than the kind with pews : ) I totally agree, and I think that's a completely valid kind of religion. I'm not sure if you got it. You mentioned these hippie churches during the 60's as if they were a new thing. My point (which I certainly am not the first person to point out) is in certain respects these new hippies were superficially and in a deeper sense kind of like Jesus' disciples (One of the few musicals that I like is Jesus Christ Superstar). So its not real progress in the sense of genuine innovation. It's just a rerun of something which came before. This began with you saying that if one kind of religion is valid at one time and place, it ought to be valid at all times and all places, and that's what we disagree on. I don't think I said one KIND of religion. Just one religion. And I suspect that you have in mind something more narrow and legalistic with that term. It seems to me that you have a problem with the idea of mankind maturing and becoming able to internalize greater portions of God's revelation - which, according to Bahá'í belief, is ultimately and forever beyond the capacity of man to fully understand. I think individuals can certainly internalize greater portions of God's revelation, grow more deeply in their faith. But as individuals coming into the world as infants we always start from 0. And we fundamentally have to learn the same lessons. The specifics may differ, but in a deeper sense, we are all in the same boat. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Perennial Bab?
Gilberto: I'm not sure if you got it. You mentioned these hippie churches during the 60's as if they were a new thing. My point (which I certainly am not the first person to point out) is in certain respects these new hippies were superficially and in a deeper sense kind of like Jesus' disciples You're right, they were. I was using this as an example of the efforts by the church to maintain or reclaim relevancy, not as an example of anything new. Gilberto: I don't think I said one KIND of religion. Just one religion. And I suspect that you have in mind something more narrow and legalistic with that term. OK, one religion. No problem. Regardless of what you suspect, I had nothing more in mind that the simple meaning of what I said. Gilberto: I think individuals can certainly internalize greater portions of God's revelation, grow more deeply in their faith. But as individuals coming into the world as infants we always start from 0. And we fundamentally have to learn the same lessons. The specifics may differ, but in a deeper sense, we are all in the same boat. We do start out from 0, the famous tabula raza. But where we go from there depends on many factors. Again, it's the idea of progressive revelation that's the sticking point between us. I see that this is a problem for a Muslim (and for many Christians as well), whereas it is foundational to a Bahá'í. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/28/2004 7:39:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. Then there should have been no more revelations after Adam. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:17:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At least in terms of islamic law,you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understandingthe principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realitiesof contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changesin technology or social organization in mind which you think Islamwould have trouble keeping up with. Most 'ulama would not suggest that you can change laws, particularly not hudud laws which are perhaps the most problematic. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:18:12 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:17:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At least in terms of islamic law, you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with. Most 'ulama would not suggest that you can change laws, particularly not hudud laws which are perhaps the most problematic. But it is possible to set up a society in such a way that keeping the law is easy and structure legal-police-justice system such it would only rarely meet out punishments. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:56:54 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 11:15:44 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But it is possible to set up a society in such a way that keeping the law is easy and structure legal-police-justice system such it would only rarely meet out punishments. That seems to be the thinking of various Utopians from Plato to the Oneida colony. Your point being? The ethos of Islam isn't to go around just lookin' for folks to punish. Looking through windows and eavesdroppings are sins mentioned in the Quran. So there should be limits to what a morality cop would do. The prophet encouraged Muslism to find ways to avoid applying the punishments. I'm sure I've said it before, but in order to geta convinction for adultery you need four upright eye-witness who actually saw the penetration. What is being punished isn't just a private discreet behavior, but a rare kind of shamelessness. -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Why rehashing the past? Re: Perennial Bab?
:It just has been weird to see isolated statements of mine, from month-old posts, Dear Gilberto, Sorry for the confusion. I was out of town when those were posted. I've been reading my older email first lately because AOL deletes anything that is more than a month old if I haven't opened it before then. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 1/23/2005 1:28:28 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2. Over millennia, mankind has become better able to absorb aspects of reality. Gilberto:Sure, in terms of scientific and technical knowledge, ability tocontrol the physical environment. We've gotten better at that. 3. Different eras and cultures have had different spiritual needs,Gilberto:What different spiritual needs? Reality is perceived in two main ways - through the senses (science) and through the spirit. One cannot perceive reality in aspiritual sense, nor can one perceive reality in a physical sense - one cannot see it (reality) with just one eye. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:12:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave: Different eras and cultures have had different spiritual needs, Gilberto: What different spiritual needs? Dave: I'm not sure I'm the person to ask...but then, I did make the statement, didn't I. Gilberto: Yup Dave: Perhaps I should have said that different cultures need to have universal ideas expressed to them in unique ways. Gilberto: I wouldn't object to that. Dave: Several ways that differing spiritual needs have manifested themselves occur to me: the obsession with immortality leading to mummification in ancient Egypt; But don't people still try to remember the dead. Or stay alive longer, extending life, getting plastic surgery. etc? [...] Dave: I don't actually think the essential spiritual needs of humans have changed all that much over time. Gilberto: I would agree but then what is the logical consequence. If a certain set of practices was able to address and satisfy the essential spiritual needs of people at one point in time, wouldn't it be possible for people to continue to embrace those principles and still have those needs met? Gilberto: Yes. People were spoken to in a way understandable to them. [14.4] And We did not send any apostle but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise. Why would God cause anyone to err? Gilberto: I think it has to do with determinism v. free will which would be a whole other discussion. Gilberto: I'm not sure that Perennialists are saying that there is a one-size-fits-all religion. Well, fundamentalist Christians certainly subscribe to that notion, and I'm not sure they're the only ones. Yup/ Gilberto: They do seem to be saying that many different religions have an underlying unity. Dave: Isn't that pretty obvious? Gilberto: Not to everyone. Gilberto: I would add that as far as the major religions go, I think that individuals within each tradition would have the capacity to look at the bigger picture while still being faithful to their own traditions. Up to a point. But if one accepts the idea of progressive revelation, then one would have an incentive to dig deeper than the offerings of any one religion. I don't see how you can say that the offerings of a religion have been exhausted. The Bahá'í view, as I understand it, is that each religion contains essential gems of divine revelation, while the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh ties these various threads together into a unified whole, I feel the same way about ISlam. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/27/2004 7:48:44 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'velooked at the writings of the Bab but the stuff I've seen tends not toinclude much legislation or commandments. Dear Gilberto, You'd probably have to find Nicholas' French translation of the Bayan. Baha'is haven't given a high priority to translating the Bab's laws since they are no longer considered binding. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The main concept which prevented me from accepting it was the near universal understanding of "the seal" among Muslims. For that reason, I gravitated more towards Eckankar (surat shabd yoga), Thelema, Theosophy, Vedanta, and (briefly) Sikhism. Susan: Of course Mani, the founder of the Manichean religion, used that title long before Muhammad adopted it. JS: On the same note, I remember reading somewhere that the notions of Sonship (one parent) and of resurrection (as in from the tomb after the crucifixion) were promoted by people before Jesus. Do you know who they were? Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 1/22/2005 8:50:13 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Gilberto, You'd probably have to find Nicholas' French translation of the Bayan. Baha'is haven't given a high priority to translating the Bab's laws since they are no longer considered binding. warmest, Susan The Bayab was not a common book for the Babis tohave. Mostly they would have the Qayyum'l Asma. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Susan, At 07:23 PM 1/22/2005, you wrote: Of course Mani, the founder of the Manichean religion, used that title long before Muhammad adopted it. Yes, but at the time (12-13 years old), I had not heard of Manicheanism. I was turned off by any religion which emphasized what I saw as finality or exclusiveness. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:02 AM 1/1/2005, you wrote: But isn't that kind of continuity still very different from what Bahais are asserting. That's what I was trying to get across earlier. Yes, it is different. I mentioned it as an example of one of the tendencies I see in many of the religions (as I define that term) - with exclusivism (including both fundamentalism and sectarianism) on one side and pluralism (including both inclusivism and universalism) on the other. (I will suggest a third category under pluralism further on down.) The Baha'i approach to knowledge and authority is, to my understanding, inclusivism. However, perennialism would be a example of universalism. I would also place the view presented by the United Church of Christ on its Still Speaking under the pluralism category. When I asked the folks working with that site to clarify their position, here was their response: To affirm that 'God is still speaking' recognizes that for divine guidance for our lives today we are not dependent only on the words of the Bible, written centuries ago. God's present communication is available to those in any age who seek God's guidance. The quote from Gracie Allen, 'Never place a period where God has placed a comma,' emphasizes the unfinished and ongoing character of God's communication. UCC leaders often cite a similar quotation from John Robinson, a leader in the Congregational tradition in England at the time the first colonists were leaving for America: 'God has yet more truth to break forth from his word.' Muslims and Christians are still saying God will continue to be involved in the world. Through the Holy Spirit, through prophets through sufi shaykhs, through mujaddids, through qutbs (the title not the individual) etc. The view advocated by the United Church of Christ, which would probably agree with those of many members of so-called liberal religious organizations (Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, Friends General Conference, Unitarian Universalist Association, etc.), is a bit different than either inclusivism or universalism. I might add a third category under the pluralism construct: religious humanism. And I'm not sure I would say that the Bahai kind of continuity isn't appealing. It's more that I don't see any reason why it should be true. Yes, of course. I find Meher Baba to be appealing, but I don't accept the legitimacy of his claim to avatarhood. I guess I would describe it differently. The various religions are usually diverse enough within themselves to manifest the various responses that you are implying above. So in each religion some people will lean towards relativism, and historical perspectives, but you also have people who are sectarian, and fundamentalists. Even in the Bahai faith. Generally speaking, when I use the term religions, I am not speaking of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. I am referring to the different Islams, Christianities, Judaisms, and Baha'i faiths. (So, by Baha'i faiths I mean categories, sometimes groups, of Baha'is who follow different perspectives, some quite alien to one another.) I'm not sure why you would do that. At least folks like Guenon and Schuon, I don't think that they are saying that anything goes. (That's actually another side which appeals to me) No, they are not. Neither do Baha'is. However, for reasons I discussed (and elaborate below), I would still place traditionalism, like other varieties of perennialism, under universalism. They are broad-minded enough to realize that the Truth has been spoken in more than one way at more than one time, in more than one place, by more than one prophet. But at the same time it doesn't have to degrade into to borderless wishy-washy mush where there are no limits.Perhaps this is mainly true of the Traditionalists. However, an essentialistic (Platonic) understanding of truth still trumps authority. In the Baha'i Faith, to my understanding, the reverse is true. The repetition of eternal truths in each Dispensation is based on God's authority. I presume He could change the rules if He desired. I think adding to the canon is a little beside the point. Catholics don't add to the canon either but many accept the the messages from Fatima. It's not just personal revelation in the sense of telling someone where they lost their car keys or something. There are different Roman Catholicisms (perspectives). However, the official view of the Papacy is that these personal revelations are subject to the authority of the church. For instance: In this context, it now becomes possible to understand rightly the concept of 'private revelation', which refers to all the visions and revelations which have taken place since the completion of the New Testament. This is the category to which we must assign the message of Fatima. In this respect, let us listen once again to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 'Throughout the ages, there have been
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:44:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 03:54 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote: Ok. I guess I would emphasize that such groups are not saying that God is silent. And so it is not clear exactly how Bahais are saying that they are different. Mark: One of the things which appealed to me about the Baha'i Faith, Eckankar, the Meher Baba movement, etc. is the belief in a (conceivably) timeless succession future persons who would have the same authority as Christ, Muhammad, etc. Gilberto: Do you have any insight as to why that might be appealing? Personally, I don't think the religion is so much about authority or that individual anyway. I like religions more based on principles, like Taoism and Buddhism, and I think it probably shows up in how I see the prophetic religions as well. That's probably why Perennialism appeals to me. The message is more important than the messenger. There are timeless principles which are more fundamental than a timeless sequence of persons. Gilberto:: The mainstream orthodox (at least not uncommon) view in Islam AND Christianity is that God still speaks to mankind in various ways. That doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry should be aknowledged as the next prophet. Mark: No, but we believe that there *will * be future Prophets. I understand that. Bahais say there will be future prophets. Muslims say there won't be future prophets. Christians seem really open to the idea that there will be future prophets (Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.) But maybe not figures of the magnitude or importance of Jesus. So in principle perhaps the Bahai faith most clearly states that future prophets will be coming. But I suspect that Muslims and Christians are probably more open to the continuing presence of lesser charismatic individuals who can serve as guides. People in the church office of prophet, sufi shaykhs, etc. What is your understanding of khatam? It seems to mean last. And even though there are a few example in Arabic literature of where it doesn't mean last. The hadith on the subject of the finality of prophethood are pretty clear. [Hebrew Isralities/Hebrew Christians] It seems to me that there are alot of groups which are Black, Bible Based, which really center on Follow the commandments of God [in the Torah]. They seem to be following a basically conservative impulse. Saying the other churches and organizations have lost their way, let themselves be influenced by paganism, western culture, etc. while they want to go back to an older way of life, following the Torah, adopting Hebrew names, identifying themselves with God's people, or the Israelites, etc. Mark: Some of these groups accept Elijah Muhammad's Yakub mythology. Gilberto: Now I've totally lost track of which groups we are talking about. I think out of the varied and distinct African-American religious movements I have the impression that there is one constellation of them which naturally hangs together. The Bible-based groups, who try to follow the commandments of the Torah. When you said Hebrew Christian: I thought that's what you were refering to (although perhaps without implying any particular racial component). Many of these groups will say that the original Jews were Black and they identify the children of Israel with African-Americans (or Blacks in the Americas). Many of these groups call themselves Hebrew Israelites Now, although there are some similarities between the above groups and the followers of Elijah Muhammad (the various incarnations of the Nation of Islam, along with the Five Percenters) and also the followers of Malachi Z. York, I see them as still being distinct. Especially since these later groups aren't claiming to follow the Torah and generally aren't claiming to be the children of Israel. And they bring in the Quran and other elements into their ideology. Mark: In my Social Problems classes, I refer to this mythology as a kind of counter-racism. I see it as an ideology designed to attack the view, held by some factions of the KKK movement, that Blacks were the progeny of Jews and apes or the Mormon teaching that Blacks are descendents of the cursed Hamites (forgiven in 1967, I believe). Gilberto: That could be true. But I hope you see that there is more to the Nation than that. I've known of people who were card-carrying members of the nation but who weren't necessarily literalists when it came to the doctrine or mythology. There are positive aspects of it as well. Gilberto: As far as I can tell Malachi Z. York doesn't really focus on those things, incorporating Islamic elements, Pharonic elements, UFOs and plenty of other non-Biblical material. Apart from the similarity of names, I'm not convinced that the
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 07:47 AM 12/31/2004, you wrote: Do you have any insight as to why that might be appealing? Subjectively, that is a difficult question for me to answer. I have a hard time understanding why it would *not* be appealing. However, I think that the appeal of continuity is similar to the rationale behind the current campaign of the United Church, God is Still Speaking: http://stillspeaking.com/ There are, I think, several possible responses to the continuing recognition of the global village. (I would never say *only* two possible responses.) One is fundamentalism or sectarianism - the desire to go back to the supposed roots of one's own religious tradition, an imagined *simpler* time when, so the myth does, no quite as many spiritual alternatives were present, and truth did not seem so relative. Another is, of course, relativism - a belief in the contextuality of truths, cross-culturally and historically, and a desire to embrace all of them. I suppose that many, perhaps most, of those who are attracted to the Baha'i Faith, to Eckankar, to the Meher Baba movement, etc. are in this second category. Personally, I don't think the religion is so much about authority or that individual anyway. I like religions more based on principles, like Taoism and Buddhism, and I think it probably shows up in how I see the prophetic religions as well. For many people, religion *is* about whom (and what) one accepts. Fundamentalists are, by definition, separatists, and they are probably furthest to the right on a separatism scale. Inclusivists, in which category I would place myself, and universalists are perhaps furthest to the left on that same scale. That's probably why Perennialism appeals to me. The message is more important than the messenger. There are timeless principles which are more fundamental than a timeless sequence of persons. I suggested above that the left of this scale consisted of both inclusivists and universalists. IMO, the Baha'i model of progressive Revelation is inclusivist. Baha'is include the succession of divine Revelations in our understanding of God's Covenant. However, the Baha'i model is not universal (in the sense I am using the term here). I would place perennialism under the universalism (rather than inclusivism) category. I understand that. Bahais say there will be future prophets. Muslims say there won't be future prophets. Christians seem really open to the idea that there will be future prophets Some do, but most believe that biblical references to prophets referred only to the earliest period of the church - sometimes regarded as having ended with the canonization of the Bible. No, or almost no, Christian denominations or sects believe that contemporary prophets can add to the biblical canon. (Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.) Pentecostals generally argue that this period began in the upper room (Acts 2). Many other Christians believe it ended with the canonization of the Bible. So in principle perhaps the Bahai faith most clearly states that future prophets will be coming. But I suspect that Muslims and Christians are probably more open to the continuing presence of lesser charismatic individuals who can serve as guides. People in the church office of prophet, sufi shaykhs, etc. I know that is not sufficient for many people. Now I've totally lost track of which groups we are talking about. For instance, the Nubian Islamic Hebrews I chatted with accepted the Yakub mythology. I think out of the varied and distinct African-American religious movements I have the impression that there is one constellation of them which naturally hangs together. The Bible-based groups, who try to follow the commandments of the Torah. When you said Hebrew Christian: I thought that's what you were refering to (although perhaps without implying any particular racial component). There are many different groups which call themselves Hebrew Christian. Not all of them are evangelical (Trinitarian, etc.). Many of these groups will say that the original Jews were Black and they identify the children of Israel with African-Americans (or Blacks in the Americas). Many of these groups call themselves Hebrew Israelites Yes, however, my experience is that there is considerable overlap between certain Hebrew Israelite and Black Muslim groups. That could be true. But I hope you see that there is more to the Nation than that. I've known of people who were card-carrying members of the nation but who weren't necessarily literalists when it came to the doctrine or mythology. There are positive aspects of it as well. Yes, I have known some members of Louis Farrakhan's organization who take the Yakub story as a metaphor. (I also have a tough time believing that Farrakhan
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:00:35 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, Mark: However, I have often found that what strikes me as plausible is greeted with astonishment by many others. To me, Thelema (Crowley) is plausible. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Even with the few thelemites I've communicated with, I wasn't sure if they were realists when it came to their own beliefs. Are you saying it is plausible that Crowley really did have some kind of spiritual experience with an entity which led him to write down his various scriptures and told him about the beginning of the Age of Horus and led him to get into all this sex magick? I mean, have you heard the anatomical interpretations of the mouth of Isis and the eye of Horus are? And in the Gnostic Mass (at least in some of the groups who look to Crowley) do you know what some of the ingredients are in the body and blood are? Ick! Maybe I'm being a bit too subjective and unfair. I mean, I think I have a certain respect for something like Santeria especially as a form of resistance so the idea of dancing around with chicken blood on you being mounted by an orisha seems messy, but it doesn't offend me. But I have this visceral reaction to the Crowley stuff as just being wrong. If you want to say you like Nietzsche or Hermeticism or secret societies affiliated with Fremasonry that's one thing. But when I get to reading about what seems like shameless hedonism with nasty rituals involving bodily fluids I have a hard time accepting that it is a valid way to the divine. I guess you can connect it back to the trust issue. Is it really a sincere spiritual path or is it just an excuse to play dress up and have orgies? Mark: On the other hand, religious movements which argue, in one way or another, for the termination of prophetic revelation at some time in the past (such as most of the traditional branches of the Judaisms, Christianities, and Islams) strike me as highly implausible. Obviously, you would disagree with me. Gilberto: I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more prophets are coming. In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting into the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The messages from Fatima would be a good example). And similarly in Islam, although the Wahabis might try to paint a different picture, it seems to me that orthodox traditional mainstream Islam also has a concept of awliya who also can experience kashf and ilham and play a charismatic role in the world. (Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?) It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way of doing that has ended. The differences among the religions of the world are due to the varying types of minds. So long as the powers of the mind are various, it is certain that men's judgements and opinions will differ one from another. If, however, one single, universal perceptive power be introduced - a power encompassing all the rest - those differing opinions will merge, and a spiritual harmony and oneness will become apparent, -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p.63 But then is the Bahai faith one more religion next to the rest which appeals to a certain kind of mind? Or are you that Bahais necessarily have that universal perceptive power? Gilberto: Yeah, I actually find groups like that pretty interesting. There are several interesting variations too..the Ethiopian Orthodox Chuch (I gather) has more of a Jewish emphasis than some other groups. Mark: The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is probably the most tolerant of the Monophysites and has tended to de-emphasize missionary activity. I didn't realize that any of them were big on missionary activity. I'm not saying you are wrong but the little I've read suggested the opposite. I think they were expanding efforts in Jamaica to try to properly teach the Rastafarians. What I'd read struck me as really smooth. So instead of saying that Halie Selassie was God they were trying to suggest that the was a living icon which seems like a cool idea. Gilberto: So do the Hebrew Israelites and Rastafarians. Then at the another end you have Anglo-Israelite groups too which can get kind of scary. Mark: Some of the Hebrew Israelites groups, such as the Nubian Islamic Hebrews, have a habit of frequently changing their names. I have had long conversations with some of them in New York's Penn Station. Gilberto: I'm not sure I would have included them in the Hebrew Israelites. I think the Nubian Islamic Hebrews used to be
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 08:55 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Even with the few thelemites I've communicated with, I wasn't sure if they were realists when it came to their own beliefs. Are you saying it is plausible that Crowley really did have some kind of spiritual experience with an entity which led him to write down his various scriptures and told him about the beginning of the Age of Horus and led him to get into all this sex magick? I don't know if he had any spiritual communications. However, Thelema, like most systems, strikes me as internally consistent. What I was saying is that, were I not a Baha'i, I would be comfortable being a Thelemite. Crowley's views have always appealed to my sensibilities. (Sex magick is not emphasized Thelema - at least not as it is generally understood. The only time when sex magick is even discussed is in the tenth degree initiation, which most Thelemites in the Ordo Templi Orientis never attain.) I mean, have you heard the anatomical interpretations of the mouth of Isis and the eye of Horus are? And in the Gnostic Mass (at least in some of the groups who look to Crowley) do you know what some of the ingredients are in the body and blood are? Ick! Yes, but Crowley regarded it as mythopoeia. But I have this visceral reaction to the Crowley stuff as just being wrong. Most people would probably agree with you. ;-) Of course, I am not defending Thelema. I am only saying that the myth system he created appeals to me. Is it really a sincere spiritual path or is it just an excuse to play dress up and have orgies? With a reasonable degree of certainty, I can say that there are no orgies in Thelema - at least not in the Ordo Templi Orientis (can't speak for the other Thelemite organizations). Anyone who attempted to have an orgy, and connect it with the OTO, would be kicked out. I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more prophets are coming. Yes In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting into the Catholic Church. It was already well established within Roman Catholicism in the 1970s. My Ph.D. dissertation was on the American pentecostal movement, including the charismatics. Almost no pentecostals or charismatics (even among the unconventional Weirwillites) would argue that the biblical canon has been extended. Instead, they would say that continuing prophecy, tongues, interpretations of tongues, words of knowledge, and words of wisdom function within a biblical context to clarify and apply the scriptures. The pre-pentecostal Catholic Apostolic and New Apostolic churches, like a few other Christian churches and sects, have instituted various offices, including prophets. However, those prophets are expected to apply, not to add to, the Bible, as they understood it. And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The messages from Fatima would be a good example). Yes, but they are acting, and revealing, within the framework of established Roman Catholic dogma. It is up to the Papacy whether to accept the legitimacy of a particular vision or series of visions. And similarly in Islam, although the Wahabis might try to paint a different picture, it seems to me that orthodox traditional mainstream Islam also has a concept of awliya who also can experience kashf and ilham and play a charismatic role in the world. Aren't those revelations expected to conform to the Qur'an? (Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?) There have been people like that. I knew one personally (the late Rob Pasca). He was a good friend of mine (from Long Island) and one of the most fascinating persons I have ever known. However, he was repeatedly cautioned by Baha'i institutions not to represent his understandings as related to the Baha'i Faith. Individual inspirations have no authority in a Baha'i context. It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way of doing that has ended. Most branches of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would reject additions to their respective scriptures (the Qur'an, the Christian Bible, and the Tanakh). So does the Baha'i Faith, but we accept the possibility of further scriptures in later Dispensations. But then is the Bahai faith one more religion next to the rest which appeals to a certain kind of mind? Or are you that Bahais necessarily have that universal perceptive power? My understanding is that `Abdu'l-Baha was making a similar point to the Bab. He was referring to the intended universal acceptance of a religion in a particular Dispensation. I didn't realize that any of
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:28:08 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, [much deleted] Gilberto: I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more prophets are coming. Mark: Yes Gilberto: [But] In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting into the Catholic Church. It was already well established within Roman Catholicism in the 1970s. My Ph.D. dissertation was on the American pentecostal movement, including the charismatics. Almost no pentecostals or charismatics (even among the unconventional Weirwillites) would argue that the biblical canon has been extended. Instead, they would say that continuing prophecy, tongues, interpretations of tongues, words of knowledge, and words of wisdom function within a biblical context to clarify and apply the scriptures. Gilberto: Ok. I guess I would emphasize that such groups are not saying that God is silent. And so it is not clear exactly how Bahais are saying that they are different. Mark: The pre-pentecostal Catholic Apostolic and New Apostolic churches, like a few other Christian churches and sects, have instituted various offices, including prophets. However, those prophets are expected to apply, not to add to, the Bible, as they understood it. Gilberto: Yeah, I remember having a conversation a few years ago with someone who introduced himself as a prophet. I think that might have been his background as well. Gilberto: And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The messages from Fatima would be a good example). Mark: Yes, but they are acting, and revealing, within the framework of established Roman Catholic dogma. It is up to the Papacy whether to accept the legitimacy of a particular vision or series of visions. Gilberto: Sure but then the Bahais are doing the same thing. I mean, there are many Bahais who construe the attitude of other religions as being closed to further revelation or believing that God is silent or has stopped guiding mankind and that's substantially not true. The mainstream orthodox (at least not uncommon) view in Islam AND Christianity is that God still speaks to mankind in various ways. That doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry should be aknowledged as the next prophet. And at least judging from your account the Bahai faith is similar: Gilberto: (Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?) Mark: There have been people like that. I knew one personally (the late Rob Pasca). He was a good friend of mine (from Long Island) and one of the most fascinating persons I have ever known. However, he was repeatedly cautioned by Baha'i institutions not to represent his understandings as related to the Baha'i Faith. Individual inspirations have no authority in a Baha'i context. It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way of doing that has ended. Mark: Most branches of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would reject additions to their respective scriptures (the Qur'an, the Christian Bible, and the Tanakh). So does the Baha'i Faith, but we accept the possibility of further scriptures in later Dispensations. Gilberto: Sure, but functionally, for the next 1000 years or so, the Bahai faith will be at least as closed-mided about this as any other religion. [Hebrew Israelites, Hebrew Christians] Gilberto: I'm not sure I would have included them [Nubian Islamic Hebrews or Malachai Z York's group (whatever name it has this week) ] in the Hebrew Israelites. Why not? I think the Nubian Islamic Hebrews used to be the Ansars. So they were led by Dr. York and believed in the lastest Mahdi in the Sudan. Yes, and York claimed to have come up with the supposed nineteen (wahid) formula before Rashad Khalifa. (If I were either of them, I wouldn't be bragging about it!) Gilberto: I've read a bunch about them and have talked to some in Detroit the past year. They seemed really loose and syncretic in some ways. Accepting the Quran but also the deity of Christ. Mixing stuff about UFOs and things. The latest I've heard about them they have a compound somewhere in the South and are building pyramids. Mark: I have four of their books where they discuss those ideas. Gilberto: It seems to me that there are alot of groups which are Black, Bible Based, which really center on Follow the commandments of God. They seem to be following a basically conservative impulse. Saying the other churches and organizations have lost their way, let themselves be influenced by paganism, western culture, etc. while they want to go back to an older way of life,
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:28:39 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gliberto, I wrote: I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally appropriate. However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet. You responded: I would just think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law, you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with. Forgive me for responding with questions, however, I'm not familiar enough with the judicial structure of Islam, or it's authority, to make a comparison. Does the Quranic scripture grant such prerogatives to scholars? Yes, sort of. I say sort of because I don't think it is a matter of authority or prerogative given to specific individuals (at least not in sunni Islam). The Quran says if you don't know something, ask those who know. (i.e. scholars). So in practice, when you have a question, you seek out someone who by consensus is a knowledgable trained scholar whom you trust. To arrive at rulings there are certain traditional methodologies (especially those established by the 4 schools) which can get applied to contemporary situations. There are places online where you can look at the rulings of contemporary scholars who apply a traditional approach to current situations. One would be www.sunnipath.com here are traditional methodologies which have been studid But in terms of material changes, I think that if scientific knowledge or social situations actually change substantially, there are ways for scholars to take some of that into account when answering questions and arriving at rulings. For example, once the health risk of smoking became known, it would be possible for scholars to say that smoking is prohibited (or at least strongly discouraged) on the grounds that it would be letting your own hands be the cause of your own destruction (something prohibited in the Quran). And in terms of the various factors which scholars look to when arriving at rulings, the Quran, the sunnah, analogy, etc. one of the principles which is used in some cases is pre-existing customs of the community. What I would want to get across is that although there are certain aspects of Islam which might seem rigid and invariable, there is also a certain amount of room for living scholars to respond to the particularities of a given situation. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:37 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves? John, To me one of the key issues is not whether specific teachings are already in the Qur'an (and I believe that, while they may be there in the Bible, they are explained more clearly and fully by Baha'u'llah in the context of this Day). Instead the issue is the guidance Baha'u'llah has given us to put these teachings into effect. Gilberto: I think that is a really interesting point. And I think I see where you are coming from but I would just disagree. If you are saying that the teachings found in the texts are valid and sound, but they just need to be interpreted correctly, then it should be sufficient to send someone to interpret them correctly. According (at least) to sunni Islam, every century a reformer (mujadid) is sent to do just that. And in addition there are other kinds of saints or scholars who can appear *within* a dispensation to bring a fresh interpretation of the teachings. None of that should require a new dispensation. Or are you saying that none of those medium-sized reformers are going to come so we have to start over with a new manifestation? Or maybe even if such reformers appear it is too hard to correctly identify them? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:53:26 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 07:20 AM 12/28/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure where you started though. I was raised evangelical Christian. So the idea of People of the Book was already rathet inclusive from my perspective. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily believe that every new age syncretic religion was going to be true. I was raised in a secular Jewish home, and I was not attracted to Judaism and Islam for similar reasons. However, had the more universal, syncretist, and new age, Jewish Renewal movement (aleph.org) existed back in the late 1960s or early 1970s, I might have gotten involved with it (at least for a while). For instance, there is a professor where I work who is connected with the Jewish Renewal movement. She tells me there are some people who consider Christianity and Islam to be legitimate paths, a perspective which would have been irresistible to me at 11, 12, or 13 years old. (I could even see myself having eventually joined their rabbinical program.) However much I like Aleph, I suppose I am grateful I became a Baha'i before it started. What is the basis for the acceptance of Islam and Christianity? I've read some things about the concept of Noachides in Judaism and it seems to me that in essence Muslims would keep all the Noachide commandments (and the one questionable point would possibly be the attitude towards the Torah which Jews accept). I think it is less clear in the case of Christians but they are also in the same ballpark. Is that it or is there a different argument? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:07 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: What is the basis for the acceptance of Islam and Christianity? With few exceptions, modern I've read some things about the concept of Noachides in Judaism With few exceptions, modern Noachides are non-Jewish members of the Lubavicher Chasidim (Chabad), an aggressive, missionary branch of Orthodox Judaism. The official view of the Lubavichers is that non-Jews are responsible for conforming to the Noachide laws. The Lubavichers have, therefore, set up an organization intended to promote this principle: http://www.noahide.com/ http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm I have visited the local Chabad House of Kansas City. It is located in the bedroom community of Overland Park, where I work: http://www.chabadkc.org/ ... and it seems to me that in essence Muslims would keep all the Noachide commandments (and the one questionable point would possibly be the attitude towards the Torah which Jews accept). I think it is less clear in the case of Christians but they are also in the same ballpark. Is that it or is there a different argument? It depends on the branch of Christianity. The Acts 28 Dispensationalists and Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would not care about the Noachide laws. However, the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania) and some (especially non-evangelical) branches of the Hebrew Christian movement would observe them. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:50:07 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, Sorry, I accidentally sent that message before it was completed. It's alright. At 10:07 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote: What is the basis for the acceptance of Islam and Christianity? The basis for the acceptance of which version of Islam or Christianity, and by whom? You had said the Jewish Renewal movement accepted Islam and Christianity as legitimate paths. I was wondering if that acceptance was done on the basis of them being Noachides. I've read some things about the concept of Noachides in Judaism With few exceptions, modern Noachides are non-Jewish members of the Lubavicher Chasidim (Chabad), an aggressive, missionary branch of Orthodox Judaism. Sure. But virtually all the Noachide commandments are also specifically part of Islamic law (even the minimal dietary code when it comes to blood). The only possible exception I can think of is that somehow Noachides are supposed to study and uphold the Torah which Muslims could probably do theoretically but in practice most Muslims would take exception to the current Penteteuch. Mark: The official view of the Lubavichers is that non-Jews are responsible for conforming to the Noachide laws. The Lubavichers have, therefore, set up an organization intended to promote this principle: Gilberto: I actually think it makes alot of sense as a way of reading the Bible. After the flood, there actually *is* a covenant set up with Noah and all his descendants (i.e. all human beings on the earth today... assuming a literal reading). The sign was the rainbow. On God's side he promises not to destroy the world by flood, but on man's side we aren't supposed to do certain things. I'm not sure if I would insist that all 7 commandments are actually found in that particular passage of the Bible, but a bunch of them are pretty plausible. http://www.noahide.com/ http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm I have visited the local Chabad House of Kansas City. It is located in the bedroom community of Overland Park, where I work: http://www.chabadkc.org/ ... and it seems to me that in essence Muslims would keep all the Noachide commandments (and the one questionable point would possibly be the attitude towards the Torah which Jews accept). I think it is less clear in the case of Christians but they are also in the same ballpark. Is that it or is there a different argument? It depends on the branch of Christianity. The Acts 28 Dispensationalists and Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would not care about the Noachide laws. However, the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania) and some (especially non-evangelical) branches of the Hebrew Christian movement would observe them. Gilberto: When you say Hebrew Christian is that a very specific movement you have in mind or is that more of a catch-all for the many churches who to varying degrees believe in the continuing validity of the Jewish Law? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:22:17 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [About the Noachides] I actually think it makes alot of sense as a way of reading the Bible. Mark: As I said before, I think that almost all perspectives, at least the ones with any longevity, have an internal logic. A continuing dialectic between adherents, as historically grounded beings, and a paradigm, or assumptive framework, tends to maintain this internal consistency. Gilberto: Sure. But among the various world-views which are on the market place there are a collection of them whose assumptions strike me as more plausible and whose logic I have a less troublesome time in following. And given my background, I find it surprising and interesting that it makes as much sense to me as it does. When you say Hebrew Christian is that a very specific movement you have in mind or is that more of a catch-all for the many churches who to varying degrees believe in the continuing validity of the Jewish Law? There are many different Hebrew Christian movements. I am talking about those, such as the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania), which are not connected with mainline Protestant evangelicalism. (In other words, not groups like Jews for Jesus.) Many of them are anti-Trinitarian (But not Monarchian or Arian), annihilationist (accepting the doctrine of conditional immortality, i.e., that unbelievers will be instantly *consumed* in hellfire, not go to an eternal punishment), and they believe in soul sleep. Yeah, I actually find groups like that pretty interesting. There are several interesting variations too..the Ethiopian Orthodox Chuch (I gather) has more of a Jewish emphasis than some other groups. So do the Hebrew Israelites and Rastafarians. Then at the another end you have Anglo-Israelite groups too which can get kind of scary. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle? Dear Gilberto, In response to the above comment I would like to offer a personal observation: In relating the internment of the Báb's remains on Mt. Carmel, the Guardian referred to the Báb's life as standing at the confluence of TWO UNIVERSAL PROPHETIC CYCLES: Thus ended a life which posterity will recognize as standing at the confluence of two universal prophetic cycles, the Adamic Cycle stretching back as far as the first dawnings of the world's recorded religious history and the Bahá'í Cycle destined to propel itself across the unborn reaches of time for a period of no less than five thousand centuries. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 54) In several instances, Shoghi Effendi has referred to `Abdu'l-Bahá as the Pivot of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant. He was the self acknowledged Servant of Baha - during the lifetime of Bahá'u'lláh and after His ascension. I think of the Báb as the pivot or as He is known, the Primal Point, (the Gate) between Cycles. This in no way diminishes His Revelation which was essential in this transition from one cycle to the next. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Gilberto: I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. from`Abdu'l-Bahá: . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. . .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet. The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the times. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46) (my caps) I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally appropriate. However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Yes, Sandra, I've seen that passage from the writings. I would just think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law, you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities of contemporary life. Peace Gilberto On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. from`Abdu'l-Bahá: . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. . .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet. The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the times. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46) (my caps) I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally appropriate. However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Yes, Sandra, I've seen that passage from the writings. I would just think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law, you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with. Peace Gilberto On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. from`Abdu'l-Bahá: . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen. These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. . .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet. The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the times. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46) (my caps) I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally appropriate. However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 07:20 AM 12/28/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure where you started though. I was raised evangelical Christian. So the idea of People of the Book was already rathet inclusive from my perspective. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily believe that every new age syncretic religion was going to be true. I was raised in a secular Jewish home, and I was not attracted to Judaism and Islam for similar reasons. However, had the more universal, syncretist, and new age, Jewish Renewal movement (aleph.org) existed back in the late 1960s or early 1970s, I might have gotten involved with it (at least for a while). For instance, there is a professor where I work who is connected with the Jewish Renewal movement. She tells me there are some people who consider Christianity and Islam to be legitimate paths, a perspective which would have been irresistible to me at 11, 12, or 13 years old. (I could even see myself having eventually joined their rabbinical program.) However much I like Aleph, I suppose I am grateful I became a Baha'i before it started. Moreover the question of whether a religion is true is also seperate from what God's criteria for salvation are. I was very much a solipsist as a young teenager. Truth, as I saw it, was entirely subjective. (In some ways, I haven't changed much grin.) In any event, as a kid, Islam, as I saw it, was too close for comfort to Judaism. But there are some strikingly inclusive passages in Islam as well. For example: I read through them. However, if I asked a Muslim whether future prophets, avatars, or (to use my preferred term at the time) sat gurus could have followed Muhammad, and the answer was negative, I would have looked elsewhere. And note that none of these passages even specify believing in Muhammad (saaws) as an essential condition. Just tawhid. Yes. I'm certainly not saying that following Muhammad is not important. It is. Following the Quran and sunnah gives us a particular path where we can grow closer to God.But in terms of human salvation its not necessarily a deal-breaker. Interesting. I'm not sure what that last sentence would mean. I thought the standard Bahai statement was that across dispensations the social teachings are different but the spiritual teachings are the same. So are you saying that Most Bahais are also Traditionalists? If they believe that, they might be open to the philosophy. ;-) I would not say that the spiritual teachings are the same in each Dispensation. Based on God's Will, they are, in my view, both eternal and progressive. However, I was referring to Baha'is who *explicitly* identified themselves with traditionalist esotericism and Platonism. I have known a few. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Sandra, Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves? My explanation in my own mind is that there is a spiritual reality that connects only through the most recent revelation in some mysterious way... but what is the outward _expression_ of this? (We are told that every spiritual reality is mirrored in the physical world).Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. from`Abdu'l-Bahá:" . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC CYCLES. It will NEVE! R BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. ..These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.The second ! part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the times." (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46) (my caps)I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally "appropriate". However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.lovingly, Sandra __You are subsc! ribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Dear Gliberto, I wrote: I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally appropriate. However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet. You responded: I would just think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law, you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with. Forgive me for responding with questions, however, I'm not familiar enough with the judicial structure of Islam, or it's authority, to make a comparison. Does the Quranic scripture grant such prerogatives to scholars? By what method are the qualified separated from those less qualified? Is there a Quranic mandate for acceptance of their rulings? Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
"Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves?" John, To me one of the key issues is not whether specific teachings are already in the Qur'an (and I believe that, while they may be there in the Bible, they are explained more clearly and fully by Baha'u'llah in the context of this Day).Instead the issue is the guidance Baha'u'llah has given us to put these teachings into effect. Prior to Baha'u'llah the major religions have different disputed claims of leadership immediately following the death of the Manifestation. I note that there were disputed claims even in the Baha'i Faith; however, unlike the previous Manifestations, Baha'u'llah Abdu'l-Baha left written instructions for the formation of the institutions of the Faith that Shoghi Effendi later put into practice.One of the last things Shoghi Effendi accomplished was the implementation of the Ten Year Plan, which brought the Baha'i world to a point where the election of the Universal House of Justice could happen. Now, we have the House of Justice, a group of individuals, who, by the nature of their election are not ones who sought the office, but instead are elected, without seeking the office,based on their commitment of service to the community. This distinguishes the Faith from past religions where there are multiple claims of authority,and different individuals can impose their different interpretations (and in most case self-serving interpretations meant to enrich the interpreter's pockets or ego) of scripture on various populations. If for no other reason, I see this as a need for the new revelation. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/27/2004 9:17:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I mean, I think theBab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed fromtime to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelationswill be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are justreiterations of the perennial wisdom. I mean, how else could the Bayanendhrine all the future revelations without something like theperennial wisdom? Baha`u'llah says that the Quran provided two of twenty-seven letters of Revelation and the Bab provided theother twenty-five. So the Revelation of the Bab in the view of Baha`u'llah is complete. He also says that each and every Prophet had the same complete Knowledge of everything God decreed, but revealed to man what God allowed Him to reveal. So all the Prophets have complete knowledge. On the other hand, the Bab spends most of His prophetic speech for "He Whom God Will Make Manifest" and says that his own Revelation will be surpassed. Selections From the Writings of the Báb Pages 5-8 A SECOND TABLET ADDRESSED TO `HIM WHO WILL BE MADE MANIFEST' 1 May the glances of Him Whom God shall make manifest illumine this letter at the primary school. [1] 2 He is the Most Glorious. 3 HE is God, no God is there but Him, the Almighty, the Best Beloved. All that are in the heavens and on the earth and whatever lieth between them are His. Verily He is the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. 4 This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: `Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee.' 5 Verily Thou art the Self-Sufficient, the All-Knowing; Thou art indeed potent over all things. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:18:12 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/27/2004 9:17:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I mean, I think the Bab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed from time to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelations will be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are just reiterations of the perennial wisdom. I mean, how else could the Bayan enshrine all the future revelations without something like the perennial wisdom? Baha`u'llah says that the Quran provided two of twenty-seven letters of Revelation and the Bab provided theother twenty-five. So the Revelation of the Bab in the view of Baha`u'llah is complete. Gilberto: Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab was complete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if he provides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there for revelation after the Bab? Gilberto I understand that the Bahais believe in progressive revelation but then how do you parse those other statements which seem to say something different? Peace Gilbeto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:51:08 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab wascomplete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if heprovides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there forrevelation after the Bab?GilbertoI understand that the Bahais believe in progressive revelation butthen how do you parse those other statements which seem to saysomething different? Okay, we have established that from a Baha`i point of view, the Bab completes the revelation. Then we need to discuss why Revelation needs further completion? What doesthe Bab have to say about it, I quoted the 2nd Tablet to He Whom God Will Make Manifest and the Bab Himself says that the Revelation to be brought by that future Prophet will make the Bab's Book complete. So, why should we think that the completeness of the Bab's Revelation is an obstacle to further revelation when the Bab Himself says it must come to pass? Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 09:17 AM 12/27/2004, you quoted: 7 No one hath been or will ever be invested with prophethood other than Thee, nor hath any sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any one except Thee. Such is the decree ordained by Him Who is the All-Encompassing, the Best Beloved. Off the top of my head, I think that may be a reference to the Bab as the Primal Point. Given the revolutionary characteristics of the Bab's teachings, I think it would difficult to read perennialism into them. For instance, the Bab did authorize the burning of all non-Babi books, which was subsequently revoked by Baha'u'llah. ...The severe laws and injunctions revealed by the Bab can be properly appreciated and understood only when interpreted in the light of His own statements regarding the nature, purpose and character of His own Dispensation. As these statements clearly reveal, the Babi Dispensation was essentially in the nature of a religious and indeed social revolution and its duration had therefore to be short, but full of tragic events, of sweeping and drastic reforms. These drastic measures enforced by the Bab and His followers were taken with the view of undermining the very foundations of Shi'ah orthodoxy, and thus paving the way for the coming of Baha'u'llah. To assert the independence of the new Dispensation, and to prepare also the ground for the approaching Revelation of Baha'u'llah, the Bab had therefore to reveal very severe laws, even though most of them were never enforced. But the mere fact that He revealed them was in itself a proof of the independent character of His Dispensation and was sufficient to create such widespread agitation, and excite such opposition on the part of the clergy that led them to cause His eventual martyrdom. -- From a letter, dated Feb. 17, 1939, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (Lights of Guidance, p.471) So the seeming-exclusive description of the Bab's status in 7 and then the claim that the Bayan enshrineth the sum total of all the Scriptures, whether of the past or of the future tends to suggest something different from progressive revelation. It is different. It is an assertion of absolute authority. Had the Bab been a perennialist, He certainly would not have wanted all non-Babi books to be burned. I mean, I think the Bab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed from time to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelations will be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are just reiterations of the perennial wisdom. How do you read the passage where the Bab says that each divine Revelation is perfected through the appearance of the next? I mean, how else could the Bayan endhrine all the future revelations without something like the perennial wisdom? In a sense, all the Prophets enshrine past and future Revelations. They all manifest the Will of God. However, the Bab, as the Primal Point, had a special relation to the Revelations before and after Him. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:27:35 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:51:08 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab was complete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if he provides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there for revelation after the Bab? Gilberto: I understand that the Bahais believe in progressive revelation but then how do you parse those other statements which seem to say something different? Scott: Okay, we have established that from a Baha`i point of view, the Bab completes the revelation. Gilberto: There are strong statements which definitely give that impression. That the Bayan enshrines all past and future revelations. That the Bab came with the 27 letters. And the Bayan says: No one hath been or will ever be invested with prophethood other than Thee, nor hath any sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any one except Thee. Scott: Then we need to discuss why Revelation needs further completion? What doesthe Bab have to say about it, I quoted the 2nd Tablet to He Whom God Will Make Manifest and the Bab Himself says that the Revelation to be brought by that future Prophet will make the Bab's Book complete. So, why should we think that the completeness of the Bab's Revelation is an obstacle to further revelation when the Bab Himself says it must come to pass? Gliberto: I'm not saying one is necessarily an obstacle to the other, but it still seems like a puzzle which leaves open some legitimate questions. What did the Bab mean by saying that no one would be invested with prophethood after Thee [Him?] If Bahaullah was going to come shortly after him? And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayan enshrines all future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message was redundant? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/27/2004 5:18:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What did the Bab mean by saying that no one would be invested withprophethood after Thee [Him?] If Bahaullah was going to come shortlyafter him? And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayanenshrines all future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message wasredundant? In one sense the Bab and Baha`u'llah are two different men with two different books. But in another sense they are the same Spirit and the same Book. Baha`u'llah explains this in the Iqan. And if the Bab came with the full revelation, why did He specify the arrival of the new Prophet (He Whom God Shall Make Manifest)? and subordinate His own Revelation and message to HWGSMM? Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:32:47 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 05:17 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayan enshrines all future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message was redundant? I am just speculating. However, from a Baha'i point of view (to my understanding), the Bab completed the Prophetic Cycle which was sealed by Muhammad. So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle? -Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:14:40 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto At 05:53 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure about why Perennialism would preclude that sort of behavior. At least when I think about it, Perennialism might imply a theoretical and intellectual tolerance for many different religions and perspectives but on the level of action, I think one can still follow the specific dictates of a particular path, however exclusive it might seem. I think you would then need to provide evidence that the Bab regarded His Revelation as a particular path. I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit to be universal) make sense from a traditionalist perennialism. Mark: It seems to me He was attempting to make a radical break with virtually everything which had taken place before Him, not that He was presenting Babism as just another tariqat or dharma. If one of the points of perennialism is *tolerance* of other paths, I don't see much of that tolerance in the Bab's writings. I'm not saying the Bab is actually a member of one of the older religions. And again, the tolerance can be theoretical. Although I don't know if my thesis can be justified by the Bab's Own writings, I would, as a qualification, suggest that the Bab's intolerance was an instance of hikmat. It was functional, not actual. (Although I don't know if this conclusion can be justified by the Bab's writings.) Certainly, the Bab never enforced most of the radical aspects of His shariah. Regardless, the fact that He laid out these extreme provisions would seem to vitiate against a Babi perennialism. Gilberto: Where do you go to find out what the shariah of the Bab was? I've looked at the writings of the Bab but the stuff I've seen tends not to include much legislation or commandments. Perennialism isn't a syncretism. Some approaches to perennialism are syncretistic. Theosophy would be an example. So are some of the schools of surat shabd yoga (Radhasoami Satsang) which explicitly claim to represent the perennial philosophy. Others, such as the ones advocated by most self-identified traditionalists (Schuon, Guenon, Nasr, etc.), oppose syncretism. Gilberto: Sure. But your arguments against the Bab being a perennialist made me think you were just thinking of the former case. I could be a perennialist Muslim but that doesn't mean I go to mass and drink the communion wine or eat food sacrificed to hindu idols or eat ribs at a local church bar-b-q. Are you a traditionalist? Most traditionalists argue that persons should recognize the unity of religions (on the esoteric level) while simultaneously engaging in the exoteric praxes of a specific tradition. So, yes, if you are a traditionalist, participating in the ceremonies of other religions traditions would not be expected. I wouldn't call myself a card-carrying Traditionalist or Perennialist but I like the authors I've read from that perspective (Nasr, Schuon, Lings, Eaton) and their ideas appeal to me. Quoting: If the religions are true it is because each time it is God who has spoken, and if they are different it is because God has spoken in different languages in conformity with the receptacles. Finally, if they are absolute and exclusive, it is because in each of them God has said I. - Frithjof Schuon (1963) Mark: I agree with Schuon as far as he goes. What is lacking in that quotation is any reference to a progression of these so-called traditions. Gilberto: That's just it though. I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. Gilberto: And just as other religions have claims to being final, exclusive, ultimate, which the Bahais relativize and wouldn't take seriously because they believe in Bahaullah. Perhaps the Bahai claims to be progressed or advanced should also be relativized. Mark: All claims of progression or advancement are temporally relative, including those relating to the Baha'i Faith. Gilberto: I would think about it differently. Allowing for the moment the possibility that Bahaullah really is a Manifestation, then perhaps the claim of the Bahai faith to be the most recent progressed faith is a relative one which depends on your perspective, just as the Jewish claim that the Torah is valid forever (at least it says so in the Bible) is a relative one. Gilberto Perhaps God has spoken and continues to be found within all these various communities. Mark: I think that God can, and does, speak to many people. Gilberto: And members of these religious traditions
Re: Perennial Bab?
Gilberto, At 07:20 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle? It depends on one's terminologies and categories. I would say that *both* Muhammad and the Bab concluded the Prophetic Cycle, and that *both* Baha'u'llah and the Bab began the Cycle of Fulfillment. The Bab is the Primal Point between both cycles. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
But why would the terminology be so inconsistent? Peace Gilberto On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:48:48 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 07:20 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle? It depends on one's terminologies and categories. I would say that *both* Muhammad and the Bab concluded the Prophetic Cycle, and that *both* Baha'u'llah and the Bab began the Cycle of Fulfillment. The Bab is the Primal Point between both cycles. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
G: But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?J: In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As far as (1) is concerned, He is in the cycle of fulfillment, not the prophetic cycle. As far as (2) is concerned, He spent a lot of time foretelling the coming of HWGWMM (Baha'u'llah), therefore putting Him in the Prophetic cycle. Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:09:30 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: But why would the terminology be so inconsistent? J: In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As far as (1) is concerned, He is in the cycle of fulfillment, not the prophetic cycle. As far as (2) is concerned, He spent a lot of time foretelling the coming of HWGWMM (Baha'u'llah), therefore putting Him in the Prophetic cycle. But aren't the previous Manifestations supposed to be independent manifestations too, but they are still considered part of the cycle of prophethood. no? -Gilberto Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
G: But aren't the previous Manifestations supposed to be independentmanifestations too, but they are still considered part of the cycle ofprophethood. no?J: As always, all these are my own view and I may be wrong. But my understanding is that the BabBaha'u'llahare the only manifestations that fulfill the propheciesabout the 'end times/day of resurrection/day of God' mentioned in the Qur'an/Bible. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Gilberto, At 07:47 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit to be universal) make sense from a traditionalist perennialism. But where do you get the perennialism? Doesn't the Bab's reference to each Revelation being perfected in the next one point to a kind of progressive Revelation? Where do you go to find out what the shariah of the Bab was? I've looked at the writings of the Bab but the stuff I've seen tends not to include much legislation or commandments. Here is a good site: http://www.inventcreat.com/bayan/b0en.html See, for instance, this page: http://www.inventcreat.com/bayan/b4en.html For instance: It is unlawful to teach books other than the Bayan unless there be therein something relating to Scholastic Philosophy Sure. But your arguments against the Bab being a perennialist made me think you were just thinking of the former case. I just don't think you have presented sufficient evidence that the Bab held to perennialist, or traditionalist, viewpoints. I wouldn't call myself a card-carrying Traditionalist or Perennialist but I like the authors I've read from that perspective (Nasr, Schuon, Lings, Eaton) and their ideas appeal to me. If I were a perennialist, Lex Hixon's approach (similar to Aldous Huxley's) or H.P.B.'s Theosophy would probably appeal to me more than than Schuon's or Guenon's. Traditionalism seems much too conservative to me. That's just it though. I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. However, the major theme of Bab's writings was, in effect, His replacement, and revelational progress has never been a theme of most (any?) major perennialist writers. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. Do you think that the Bab left His revelation to morally sensitive people to apply to their times? I would think about it differently. Allowing for the moment the possibility that Bahaullah really is a Manifestation, then perhaps the claim of the Bahai faith to be the most recent progressed faith is a relative one which depends on your perspective, just as the Jewish claim that the Torah is valid forever (at least it says so in the Bible) is a relative one. However, in the case of the Baha'i Faith, it is Baha'u'llah Who regarded His Revelation to be the most recent. Sure, and it would also include taking a traditional understanding of seal of the prophets seriously as well. How would you interpret seal (khatam) from a traditionalist standpoint? For instance, what if some followers of, say, Meher Baba, claimed to be traditionalists and regarded Baba as the latest prophet, avatar, etc.? Would you accept their claim from their own traditionalist standpoint but reject it from your own? What about if some Baha'is were traditionalists, and there are some, and made similar claims about Baha'u'llah? With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, John, At 08:01 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: Mark, You called him the point between the cycles... I retract the statement about the line, because two cycles/circles touch at one point and not at a line. Yes. I was referring to the Bab's title, Primal Point (nuqtiy-i-ula). With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:32:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 07:47 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit to be universal) make sense from a traditionalist perennialism. But where do you get the perennialism? Doesn't the Bab's reference to each Revelation being perfected in the next one point to a kind of progressive Revelation? Maybe I'm misremembering it but the passage I saw recently talked about the previous revelations being renewed which to me suggested more of a repetitive process where the revelation is more of a reminder of what came before. I wouldn't call myself a card-carrying Traditionalist or Perennialist but I like the authors I've read from that perspective (Nasr, Schuon, Lings, Eaton) and their ideas appeal to me. If I were a perennialist, Lex Hixon's approach (similar to Aldous Huxley's) or H.P.B.'s Theosophy would probably appeal to me more than than Schuon's or Guenon's. Traditionalism seems much too conservative to me. I wouldn't call myself conservative by temperment. But by Traditionalism all I'm saying is that although I like Perennialism, I also don't think that anything goes.If you really believe that God spoke at specific times in history then it makes sense to strive to connect to God through those traditional authentic channels. That doesn't necessarily leave non-traditional people out in the cold though. That's just it though. I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. However, the major theme of Bab's writings was, in effect, His replacement, and revelational progress has never been a theme of most (any?) major perennialist writers. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. Do you think that the Bab left His revelation to morally sensitive people to apply to their times? I think we are talking about two different things. One is whether the Bab was a Perennialist. I'm willing to hold off on that till reading more about the writings. Secondly, whether Perennialism/Traditionalism makes sense independently of whether the Bab endorsed it or not. Gilberto: I would think about it differently. Allowing for the moment the possibility that Bahaullah really is a Manifestation, then perhaps the claim of the Bahai faith to be the most recent progressed faith is a relative one which depends on your perspective, just as the Jewish claim that the Torah is valid forever (at least it says so in the Bible) is a relative one. Mark: However, in the case of the Baha'i Faith, it is Baha'u'llah Who regarded His Revelation to be the most recent. But I thought in the Bahai faith religious language was generally seen as metaphorical and relative. Even if Bahaullah said This is the bestest religion ever it still doesn't rule out that the claim is relative. Sure, and it would also include taking a traditional understanding of seal of the prophets seriously as well. How would you interpret seal (khatam) from a traditionalist standpoint? I'm not sure how Schuon and Nasr do it. Personally, I would just refuse to call post-Muhammad religious figures prophets.I mean, I haven't concluded that Bahaullah is a Manifestation so your question isn't all that deep to me. I guess in general I would take the standard claims of Islam seriously. But then hold out the possibility that my opinion or perspective is only relatively true. And that from a God's-eye perspective it might be possible to reconcile the various claims of different religions. People who believe in other religions might fall under ahl al-kitab.The Quran also mentions those who believe in Allah and the Last Day which would necessarily be more inclusive. There are passages in the Quran and hadith which suggest that tawhid might be sufiicient for salvation so I would be open to the idea that other religions might satisfy God's criteria for tawhid whether I can recognize it or not. Mark: For instance, what if some followers of, say, Meher Baba, claimed to be traditionalists and regarded Baba as the latest prophet, avatar, etc.? Would you accept their claim from their own traditionalist standpoint but reject it from your own? Gilberto: I wouldn't accept their claim from their perspective. I would avoid avatar or any kind of incarnational language. But hold out the possibility that they are saintly monotheists and that God will accept them. Mark: What about if some Baha'is were traditionalists, and there are some, and made similar claims about Baha'u'llah? I'm not sure what a Bahai traditionalist would look like? Peace Gilberto My
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 09:53 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote: Maybe I'm misremembering it but the passage I saw recently talked about the previous revelations being renewed which to me suggested more of a repetitive process where the revelation is more of a reminder of what came before. That passage referred to a Revelation being perfected, not renewed, through the subsequent Revelation. That doesn't necessarily leave non-traditional people out in the cold though. Okay. That is different from what most self-defined traditionalist authors believe. I think we are talking about two different things. One is whether the Bab was a Perennialist. I'm willing to hold off on that till reading more about the writings. Yes. Secondly, whether Perennialism/Traditionalism makes sense independently of whether the Bab endorsed it or not. Paradigms are constructed sets of assumptions. If one accepts a particular paradigm, the conclusions one draws will follow from, and be consistent with, it. Thus, the paradigm becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other words, most any system of beliefs can make relative sense. I'm not sure how Schuon and Nasr do it. Personally, I would just refuse to call post-Muhammad religious figures prophets.I mean, I haven't concluded that Bahaullah is a Manifestation so your question isn't all that deep to me. That has been a difficult issue for some Muslims who accept traditionalism. In other words, one is faced with the impossibility of accepting any faith systems subsequent to Islam as legitimate traditions founded by a Prophet (Meher Baba, Baha'u'llah, Ramakrishna, etc.). It may also account for why traditionalism has never been a majority opinion among perennialists, who tend to be more universal and syncretist. I guess in general I would take the standard claims of Islam seriously. I have always found Islam attractive - even when I was a child. The main concept which prevented me from accepting it was the near universal understanding of the seal among Muslims. For that reason, I gravitated more towards Eckankar (surat shabd yoga), Thelema, Theosophy, Vedanta, and (briefly) Sikhism. There are passages in the Quran and hadith which suggest that tawhid might be sufiicient for salvation so I would be open to the idea that other religions might satisfy God's criteria for tawhid whether I can recognize it or not. To my understanding, Baha'i soteriology comes closest to inclusivism, the view that God can choose to save whoever He wishes, rather than a pure universalism. IMO, universalism, like exclusivism, compromises God's absolute sovereignty. I wouldn't accept their claim from their perspective. I would avoid avatar or any kind of incarnational language. But hold out the possibility that they are saintly monotheists and that God will accept them. Okay. I'm not sure what a Bahai traditionalist would look like? There are at least a few traditionalists in Baha'i cyberspace (not sure about this list). The ones I have known emphasize the eternal teachings of different faith systems; they see progressive Revelation in relation to the exoteric (social), not the esoteric (eternal), elements of religions; and they tend to be Platonists. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu