Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 9:16 PM + 1/2/03, l0stbyte wrote: >Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: > >> I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of >> Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no >> more than >> a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! >> College >> is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is >> there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business >> degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have >> you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. >> >> When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. >> >> Calculus >> Physics >> Finance >> Accounting >> Economics >> CS-programming >> CS-operating systems >> CS-networking >> >> >> >> Daniel Ladrach >> CCNA, CCNP >> WorldCom >All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some >kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by >far more challenging. My two cents.. >:) I hope the smiley means you aren't serious. Let me pose some CS questions, which I swear are off the top of my head. In all fairness, I'm not sure if some of these will be advanced undergraduate or graduate level, but we have been talking about CCIE vs. PhD... I have tried to select questions that bear on real networks. CS-programming. Compare and contrast NP-hard, NP-complete, and NP-incomplete algorithms Review the optimal search and update algorithms for trees and tries. Identify four major searching and sorting algorithms and describe their advantages and disadvantages Extract a square root using Newton-Raphson iteration, or select a different method and explain why it is superior. Describe a strategy for change control in a programming team. The software library will include documentation, source, linkable elements, and executables. What record locking mechanisms are needed to ensure integrity of a hierarchical linked list? What are the types of commitment protocols and the basic ACID properties of transactions? How can a buffer overflow be exploited to gain control? Build a Monte Carlo simulator for network traffic following Markov, exponential, fractal, and Erlang B and C pdf's for both interarrival and service time. Characterize the major conceptual differences among the FORTH, FORTRAN IV, LISP, PROLOG, Pascal, C, Ada, C++ and SQL languages Give examples of data structures using isomorphism, homomorphism, and monomorphism. What is a context-free grammar? Differentiate between abstract syntax, operational semantics, and transfer syntax. CS-operating systems Describe the difference between a kernel and a microkernel and their relationships to operating systems. Discuss strategies for managing buffer allocation, fragmentation, and garbage collection. Compare and contrast polling versus interrupts in a real-time OS. Describe at least four major types of multiprocessing. You may include multistream single processors. How can you do a hitless software upgrade on a real-time OS? Differentiate between processes, tasks, and threads in POSIX. Describe the requirements for transparent failover among multiple processors, including the context switching issues. What are the differences between reentrancy and serial reusability? Compare backup strategies and management, including serial media, various types of RAID, and write-once optical storage. What is a deadly embrace? What is the difference between mandatory and discretionary access control? Is compartmentation orthogonal to sensitivity? What is the Bell-Lapadula theorem and where is it used? What is a covert channel and how do you protect against it? What is the difference between spawning and forking? How are named vs. unnamed pipes used, and what is their relationship to semaphores and sockets? CS-networking Compare and contrast error management using ARQ, parallel transmission, and FEC What issues do CALEA and E911 have on multiservice router design? Discuss the evolution in Internet topology that has led to greater BGP instability? Focus on topological changes. Differentiate between codecs and transcoders, and identify the impairments they introduce. What limitation does the Dijkstra algorithm impose on subsecond convergence time? What are potential fixes to the problem? Define unicity distance and its applicability to two coding schemes. What is QAM? Trellis encoding? What is the role of a phase-locked loop in received signal timing? To what sorts of signals is it relevant? Why are there pulse density restrictions in DS-x and E-x signals? In what routing protocol did Floyd identify the problem of weak
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
What is a deadly embrace? >> Having to hung my EX?? :>) ?? -edgar . . . for there is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague is begun. - Num. 16:46 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60155&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
I am feeling contrary, and get yet another chance to correct the incorrect spelling of "degree" in the thread subject. "nrf" manipulated photons and electrons to say, >""Geoff Zinderdine"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> > I understand everything you said, and I agree that college coursework >> should >> > modernize, but I think you may be missing the point of a college >> education. >> > >> > The point of a college education is not to prepare you to step into a >job >> > immediately. That is not its purpose, and never has been - even for >such >> > 'professional' degrees like engineering and CS. *sigh* one of the classic complaints of interns is how they were told "don't worry about the details--learn the concepts." Now, facing a cardiac arrest, how many milliliters of what concept do they need to inject? >The purpose of the >> college >> > degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon >> which >> > you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as >problem-solving, > > > critical thinking, and time-management. To say nothing of coping with hangovers. >In essence, you learn how to >> learn. >> >> In the abstract this is a nice thought and perhaps how things should >work. >> In practice, university seemed to me to be mostly about learning how to >> impress a bevy of preening mandarins who have long since lost any >relevance > > to the world at large. Perhaps a better description is that universities are optimized to produce medieval German professors. Alternatively, I find them rather like government, but without the efficiency. >By removing accountability, tenure enforces this >> irrelevance. There are some wonderful teachers and amazing researchers to >> be sure, but they tend to be focused in disciplines which are very much >> practical in nature such as medicine which are preparing students for real > > world tasks. In my experience with medical schools, someone may have tenure, but if the associated hospitals change, it becomes irrelevant. Now, the various flavors of formal critics, be they deconstructionists, anti-patriarchical physicists, etc... > > >> The real reason that college programs are far behind the times >> technologywise is not because of any noble liberal arts approach to >> learning. It is because the people on the cutting edge of technology are >> working for companies that can remunerate them better than schools. There >> is no fundamental benefit to studying old technology over new outside of >> inculcating some small sense of nostalgia for an age when you could almost >> know everything about the field. At issue is a lack of people qualified >to >> teach at the cutting edge. An interesting problem indeed. I would be delighted to teach networking at the graduate level, but I have credentials problems. I'd also be prepared to teach modern strategic thought and interdisciplinary studies between medicine and CS. > >I think you have made the mistake of restricting yourself just to the realm >of technology - and rapidly moving technology at that. The vast realm of >academia consists of subject matters that hardly change at all. > >To wit - in a hundred years, in the English major, Shakespeare will still be >Shakespeare, in the political science major, Marx will still be Marx, Karl or Groucho? In any case, Marxism is probably more an economic than a political theory -- thesis/antithesis/synthesis certainly did not originate with Karl and Friedrich. I'm fairly active in politicomilitary theory. Obviously, Clausewitzian thought is important, but its relevance to Worden's targeting theories is extremely relevant today. Sun Tzu is an important ancestor of Liddell-Hart and Fuller, and onto today's maneuvrists. Boyd's OODA loops are critical tactically, but also draw from psychology, from Jomini's concepts of movement on interior lines, and Wiener on control theory. > in >the psychology major, Freud will still be Freud, Now, that I can't let slide. Freud was a seminal thinker, but in detail, even his immediate disciples, Jung, Adler, Fromm-Reichmann, etc., think more clearly. There have been entire new disciplines since Freud, such as most of cognitive theory. Neurobiology is transforming the discipline. > in the economics major, >Adam Smith will still be Adam Smith, And we still tend to have an inadequacy of rich economists, which must prove something. >and in the physics major, >thermodynamics will still be thermodynamics. Therefore there is tremendous >benefit in studying the 'old masters' in these realms simply because they >will be just as relevant today as they will be in the future. What exactly >is the cutting edge in English, Monty Python. You can't claim to be a serious network architect without it. > and is it really better than knowing >Shakespeare? > >Again, forget about technology for a moment. Think about your world >
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
ok...that was just a little too much for me! Howard, is looking to have one of too many neurons head toward a collision course.LOL But, I do find it entertaining to read your posts. -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 8:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] I am feeling contrary, and get yet another chance to correct the incorrect spelling of "degree" in the thread subject. "nrf" manipulated photons and electrons to say, >""Geoff Zinderdine"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> > I understand everything you said, and I agree that college coursework >> should >> > modernize, but I think you may be missing the point of a college >> education. >> > >> > The point of a college education is not to prepare you to step into a >job >> > immediately. That is not its purpose, and never has been - even for >such >> > 'professional' degrees like engineering and CS. *sigh* one of the classic complaints of interns is how they were told "don't worry about the details--learn the concepts." Now, facing a cardiac arrest, how many milliliters of what concept do they need to inject? >The purpose of the >> college >> > degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon >> which >> > you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as >problem-solving, > > > critical thinking, and time-management. To say nothing of coping with hangovers. >In essence, you learn how to >> learn. >> >> In the abstract this is a nice thought and perhaps how things should >work. >> In practice, university seemed to me to be mostly about learning how to >> impress a bevy of preening mandarins who have long since lost any >relevance > > to the world at large. Perhaps a better description is that universities are optimized to produce medieval German professors. Alternatively, I find them rather like government, but without the efficiency. >By removing accountability, tenure enforces this >> irrelevance. There are some wonderful teachers and amazing researchers to >> be sure, but they tend to be focused in disciplines which are very much >> practical in nature such as medicine which are preparing students for real > > world tasks. In my experience with medical schools, someone may have tenure, but if the associated hospitals change, it becomes irrelevant. Now, the various flavors of formal critics, be they deconstructionists, anti-patriarchical physicists, etc... > > >> The real reason that college programs are far behind the times >> technologywise is not because of any noble liberal arts approach to >> learning. It is because the people on the cutting edge of technology are >> working for companies that can remunerate them better than schools. There >> is no fundamental benefit to studying old technology over new outside of >> inculcating some small sense of nostalgia for an age when you could almost >> know everything about the field. At issue is a lack of people qualified >to >> teach at the cutting edge. An interesting problem indeed. I would be delighted to teach networking at the graduate level, but I have credentials problems. I'd also be prepared to teach modern strategic thought and interdisciplinary studies between medicine and CS. > >I think you have made the mistake of restricting yourself just to the realm >of technology - and rapidly moving technology at that. The vast realm of >academia consists of subject matters that hardly change at all. > >To wit - in a hundred years, in the English major, Shakespeare will still be >Shakespeare, in the political science major, Marx will still be Marx, Karl or Groucho? In any case, Marxism is probably more an economic than a political theory -- thesis/antithesis/synthesis certainly did not originate with Karl and Friedrich. I'm fairly active in politicomilitary theory. Obviously, Clausewitzian thought is important, but its relevance to Worden's targeting theories is extremely relevant today. Sun Tzu is an important ancestor of Liddell-Hart and Fuller, and onto today's maneuvrists. Boyd's OODA loops are critical tactically, but also draw from psychology, from Jomini's concepts of movement on interior lines, and Wiener on control theory. > in >the psychology major, Freud will still be Freud, Now, that I can't let slide. Freud was a seminal thinker, but in detail, even his immediate disciples, Jung, Adler, Fromm-Reichmann, etc., think more clearly. There ha
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Characterize the major conceptual differences among the FORTH, FORTRAN if memory serves, FORTH requires that programmers be from another planet, or at least have spent substantial parts of their lives on one :) > IV, > LISP, PROLOG, Pascal, C, Ada, C++ and SQL languages > Give examples of data structures using isomorphism, homomorphism, and > monomorphism. > What is the Bell-Lapadula theorem and where is it used? I believe he was the star of several black and white vampire movies. > What is the difference between spawning and forking? the difference between night and day? > Discuss the evolution in Internet topology that has led to greater > BGP instability? the accidental dissemination of proivilege exec passwords to tier 1 help desk CCNA's :-> Focus on topological changes. > Differentiate between codecs and transcoders, and identify the > impairments they introduce. > What limitation does the Dijkstra algorithm impose on subsecond > convergence > time? What are potential fixes to the problem? > Define unicity distance and its applicability to two coding schemes. > What is QAM? Trellis encoding? > What is the role of a phase-locked loop in received signal timing? > To what sorts of signals is it relevant? > Why are there pulse density restrictions in DS-x and E-x signals? > In what routing protocol did Floyd identify the problem of weak > synchronization, and how is it corrected? > What is the effect of the Byzantine Generals (also called Byzantine > Corruption) problem on high availability, and what are workarounds? > What is van Eck radiation and how does it affect security? > Why are external routes given lesser preference in link state protocols, > and what is their effect on the Dijkstra algorithm? > What is a LFN (elephant) and what do you do about it? > Why does OSPF use the lollipop algorithm for sequence numbers? > What is Huffman compression and how does it improve JPEG transmission? > Why is regenerative feedback a bad method of controlling systems? > Describe the functions of the OSI session layer in recovery. > What is the limitation of source-destination hash load balancing in > traffic engineering? > What probability function best describes Internet traffic? > Why does TFTP use a fixed record size? > What are the differences between XDR and ASN.1? > What mathematical principle underlies frame control sequences? > Describe the silly window syndrome. > Why has the destination preference attribute of BGP not been deployed? > Differentiate among system, layer, and station management. > > Howard, you are one mean interviewer!! I guess I'm not hired :-> Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60159&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
> *sigh* one of the classic complaints of interns is how they were told > "don't worry about the details--learn the concepts." Now, facing a > cardiac arrest, how many milliliters of what concept do they need to > inject? Yet at the same time we have the opposite phenomena - guys who can configure routers in a Sunday minute, but can't even spell RFC. What I'm talking about is guys who might know what all the commands are, but have no grounding in routing protocol theory or any such higher concepts. All they know is - they see this problem, they type in this command. Such guys are useful if you need to troubleshoot your network at 3 in the morning, not so useful if you want to do something that isn't in a textbook. And besides, I hate to say it, but these guys are destined to be replaced by a good OSS. > > >The purpose of the > >> college > >> > degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon > >> which > >> > you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as > >problem-solving, > > > > critical thinking, and time-management. > > To say nothing of coping with hangovers. I think you relate more of the truth than you think. The fact is, business is greased with alcohol, especially on the sales side of things. One of the biggest pre-reqs of being a good salesman is how to drink. And let's face it - good salesmen make more money in a month than we make in a year. > > > >To wit - in a hundred years, in the English major, Shakespeare will still be > >Shakespeare, in the political science major, Marx will still be Marx, > > Karl or Groucho? In any case, Marxism is probably more an economic > than a political theory -- thesis/antithesis/synthesis certainly did > not originate with Karl and Friedrich. Point stands though - in a 100 years, Marx will still be an subject worthy of study. > >> > Now, that I can't let slide. Freud was a seminal thinker, but in > detail, even his immediate disciples, Jung, Adler, Fromm-Reichmann, > etc., think more clearly. There have been entire new disciplines > since Freud, such as most of cognitive theory. Neurobiology is > transforming the discipline. The point is not to say that Freud was right all the time, just like Aristotle wasn't right all the time. But that doesn't mean that their ideas are unworthy of study. > > > Why are these mutually exclusive? Thinking of my colleagues on the > BGP convergence project, all practicing computer scientists, and what > we tend to talk about at the bar: > > Educational background > -- > MS, psychology Learning behavior in machines and people. Ethics > MS, CS South Asian cooking and theology > something BritishBBC comedy, political history > ?? Politics, the NFL > PhD, mathBook publishing and writing style. Yet I doubt that John Chambers ever read an RFC before in his life. But let's face it. Let's be totally and completely honest. I know this might come across as a low-blow, but at the end of the day, who really has more influence on the direction of the networking industry - the best CCIE in the world, or Mr. Chambers? \> > > >Now I do agree that universities often times do have a certain doctrinal > >bent, but on the other hand, I have found most universities to be more > >filled with independent thinkers than the average place. > > > And one doesn't NEED universities to develop independent thought, if > one has the commitment to do so. They are one of many ways to a path. Indeed. But universities are the tried and true path. More importantly, they are the recognized path. The problem with any other path is that they are simply not recognized as such. Therefore when it comes to ascertaining who is intellectually capable and who is not, it is extremely difficult to gauge a person who took the road less travelled. Anybody can claim to be a wandering philosopher who has spent their spare time training their mind on the various mental disciplines of the world - but it is really true? Maybe the guy really just spent all his time hanging out at the local bar. At least with the college degree, you recognize the work effort involved. You know what it is. > > > > > > > >> I think you are committing 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'. Gates values > >smart > >> people and as most smart people go through university it is moot whether > >it > >> is the diploma that is significant in getting them the job or their > >> intelligence that is more important. > > There are dropouts at the highest levels of the IETF, etc. Hey, there are guys who smoke 3 packs a day who live to be a 100. There are guys who actually win in Vegas.. That's the thing about statistics - nothing is ever guaranteed. There will always be exceptions. I certainly am not going to tell my kids that smoking is good or that they should spend their entire life savings at the roulette table. > > > > >Even if this were the
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 10:22 PM -0600 1/2/03, Frank Jimenez wrote: >Howard, >Next time you have a job opening, let me know so I can apply - the >interview alone would be worth the expense of flying out to see you! > >Hee hee - I always have respect for anyone who manages to fit a >deadly embrace and Van Eck radiation in the same posting. And as a >sidenote, I always found that programming in LISP was much more >efficient after the indigestion of alcoholic beverages And possibly applying tape to the right paren key. > >Frank Jimenez, CCIE #5738 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] You realize, Sir, that you've ruined my sleep tonight, for I will have nightmares of Prof. van Eck hugging a beloved, with a poisoned dagger in one hand. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60183&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 4:19 AM + 1/3/03, nrf wrote: > > *sigh* one of the classic complaints of interns is how they were told >> "don't worry about the details--learn the concepts." Now, facing a >> cardiac arrest, how many milliliters of what concept do they need to >> inject? > >Yet at the same time we have the opposite phenomena - guys who can configure >routers in a Sunday minute, but can't even spell RFC. What I'm talking >about is guys who might know what all the commands are, but have no >grounding in routing protocol theory or any such higher concepts. All they >know is - they see this problem, they type in this command. Such guys are >useful if you need to troubleshoot your network at 3 in the morning, not so >useful if you want to do something that isn't in a textbook. And besides, I >hate to say it, but these guys are destined to be replaced by a good OSS. As we get better at self-repairing and expert systems. It was no accident I put the Byzantine Corruption problem in my question list. > >> >> >The purpose of the >> >> college >> >> > degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge >upon >> >> which >> >> > you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as >> >problem-solving, >> > > > critical thinking, and time-management. >> >> To say nothing of coping with hangovers. > >I think you relate more of the truth than you think. The fact is, business >is greased with alcohol, especially on the sales side of things. One of the >biggest pre-reqs of being a good salesman is how to drink. And let's face >it - good salesmen make more money in a month than we make in a year. Ah, but there are counterstrategies. When I need to be out with martini-guzzling salesdroids, I order a cognac or single malt, so I have an excuse to sip and savor as they get blasted. I've done a fair bit of presales support. At one point, the sales VP of my company said "why don't you come over to sales? You'd be great at it!" "Jerry," I said, "don't you think that if I wanted to be in sales, I'd already be there? Just because I do something well as part of the Salary Continuation Program doesn't mean I like it." > >> > >> > > Freud was a seminal thinker, but in > > detail, even his immediate disciples, Jung, Adler, Fromm-Reichmann, >> etc., think more clearly. There have been entire new disciplines >> since Freud, such as most of cognitive theory. Neurobiology is >> transforming the discipline. > >The point is not to say that Freud was right all the time, just like >Aristotle wasn't right all the time. But that doesn't mean that their ideas >are unworthy of study. Depends, I suppose, on your specific goals. If you are a historian of psychology or political economy, Freud and Marx are essential to know in detail. If you are going to practice nonpharmacologic psychotherapy, then Sullivan, Maslow, Adler, the current leaders in rational emotive and cognitive therapy, etc., are more important. If you take a more biologic approach--well, I have Freud's Interpretation of Dreams and other works on the shelf, but what I reach for most of the time is the Biochemical Basis of Neuropharmacology. To deal with some educational psych for Cisco course development, I need Bloom's Taxonomy. There's a question of time allocation, and it's not always best served by approaching things in chronological order. Eckert and Mauchly were among the first people actually to build a computer, but knowing von Neumann principles is more important. > >Yet I doubt that John Chambers ever read an RFC before in his life. But >let's face it. Let's be totally and completely honest. I know this might >come across as a low-blow, but at the end of the day, who really has more >influence on the direction of the networking industry - the best CCIE in the >world, or Mr. Chambers? Let's not forget a third path. Vint Cerf (PhD and Worldcom senior VP). Scott Bradner. Fred Baker. Sandy Lerner and Len Bosack as innovators rather than corporate managers. Bill Carrico. Deborah Estrin. Other innovators that start major technologies. For that matter, consider Ira Magaziner, Esther Dyson, Newton Minow, Charlie Brown (AT&T, not Peanuts), etc. Brown is interesting in that he worked his way up to AT&T CEO from a starting job as a cable splicer. In today's communications world, I would have said that could never happen again, given CEOs tend to come from finance or sales --- but I look now at Enron, Worldcom, etc., and wonder. > > >Yet in the eyes of a company, how are you supposed to know that a candidate >is a slacker? Every candidate is going to claim to be the greatest worker >in the world, but how do you know that they're telling the truth - >particularly when they have no work record to judge them by? Exactly. Different rules apply to new and established job seekers. I haven't gone through a conventional job-seeking process in years -- either I was recruited or I helped create a posi
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
FORTRAN? I remember typing out all those ridiculous punch cards in the 80's. Wonder if anyone remembers dropping their big stack of punch cards and then trying to put them back in order! :-) Shawn K. > -Original Message- > From: The Long and Winding Road [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:37 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > ""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Characterize the major conceptual differences among the FORTH, > FORTRAN > > > if memory serves, FORTH requires that programmers be from another planet, > or > at least have spent substantial parts of their lives on one :) > > > > IV, > > LISP, PROLOG, Pascal, C, Ada, C++ and SQL languages > > Give examples of data structures using isomorphism, homomorphism, > and > > monomorphism. > > > What is the Bell-Lapadula theorem and where is it used? > > I believe he was the star of several black and white vampire movies. > > > > What is the difference between spawning and forking? > > > the difference between night and day? > > > > Discuss the evolution in Internet topology that has led to greater > > BGP instability? > > > the accidental dissemination of proivilege exec passwords to tier 1 help > desk CCNA's :-> > > > Focus on topological changes. > > Differentiate between codecs and transcoders, and identify the > > impairments they introduce. > > What limitation does the Dijkstra algorithm impose on subsecond > > convergence > > time? What are potential fixes to the problem? > > Define unicity distance and its applicability to two coding schemes. > > What is QAM? Trellis encoding? > > What is the role of a phase-locked loop in received signal timing? > > To what sorts of signals is it relevant? > > Why are there pulse density restrictions in DS-x and E-x signals? > > In what routing protocol did Floyd identify the problem of weak > > synchronization, and how is it corrected? > > What is the effect of the Byzantine Generals (also called Byzantine > > Corruption) problem on high availability, and what are > workarounds? > > What is van Eck radiation and how does it affect security? > > Why are external routes given lesser preference in link state > protocols, > > and what is their effect on the Dijkstra algorithm? > > What is a LFN (elephant) and what do you do about it? > > Why does OSPF use the lollipop algorithm for sequence numbers? > > What is Huffman compression and how does it improve JPEG > transmission? > > Why is regenerative feedback a bad method of controlling systems? > > Describe the functions of the OSI session layer in recovery. > > What is the limitation of source-destination hash load balancing in > > traffic engineering? > > What probability function best describes Internet traffic? > > Why does TFTP use a fixed record size? > > What are the differences between XDR and ASN.1? > > What mathematical principle underlies frame control sequences? > > Describe the silly window syndrome. > > Why has the destination preference attribute of BGP not been > deployed? > > Differentiate among system, layer, and station management. > > > > > > > Howard, you are one mean interviewer!! > > I guess I'm not hired :-> Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60180&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Howard, Next time you have a job opening, let me know so I can apply - the interview alone would be worth the expense of flying out to see you! Hee hee - I always have respect for anyone who manages to fit a deadly embrace and Van Eck radiation in the same posting. And as a sidenote, I always found that programming in LISP was much more efficient after the indigestion of alcoholic beverages Frank Jimenez, CCIE #5738 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Howard C. Berkowitz Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] At 9:16 PM + 1/2/03, l0stbyte wrote: >Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: > >> I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher >> College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS >> degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person >> has not been to college! College >> is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is >> there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business >> degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have >> you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same >> road. >> >> When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. >> >> Calculus >> Physics >> Finance >> Accounting >> Economics >> CS-programming >> CS-operating systems >> CS-networking >> >> >> >> Daniel Ladrach >> CCNA, CCNP >> WorldCom >All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some >kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by >far more challenging. My two cents.. >:) I hope the smiley means you aren't serious. Let me pose some CS questions, which I swear are off the top of my head. In all fairness, I'm not sure if some of these will be advanced undergraduate or graduate level, but we have been talking about CCIE vs. PhD... I have tried to select questions that bear on real networks. CS-programming. Compare and contrast NP-hard, NP-complete, and NP-incomplete algorithms Review the optimal search and update algorithms for trees and tries. Identify four major searching and sorting algorithms and describe their advantages and disadvantages Extract a square root using Newton-Raphson iteration, or select a different method and explain why it is superior. Describe a strategy for change control in a programming team. The software library will include documentation, source, linkable elements, and executables. What record locking mechanisms are needed to ensure integrity of a hierarchical linked list? What are the types of commitment protocols and the basic ACID properties of transactions? How can a buffer overflow be exploited to gain control? Build a Monte Carlo simulator for network traffic following Markov, exponential, fractal, and Erlang B and C pdf's for both interarrival and service time. Characterize the major conceptual differences among the FORTH, FORTRAN IV, LISP, PROLOG, Pascal, C, Ada, C++ and SQL languages Give examples of data structures using isomorphism, homomorphism, and monomorphism. What is a context-free grammar? Differentiate between abstract syntax, operational semantics, and transfer syntax. CS-operating systems Describe the difference between a kernel and a microkernel and their relationships to operating systems. Discuss strategies for managing buffer allocation, fragmentation, and garbage collection. Compare and contrast polling versus interrupts in a real-time OS. Describe at least four major types of multiprocessing. You may include multistream single processors. How can you do a hitless software upgrade on a real-time OS? Differentiate between processes, tasks, and threads in POSIX. Describe the requirements for transparent failover among multiple processors, including the context switching issues. What are the differences between reentrancy and serial reusability? Compare backup strategies and management, including serial media, various types of RAID, and write-once optical storage. What is a deadly embrace? What is the difference between mandatory and discretionary access control? Is compartmentation orthogonal to sensitivity? What is the Bell-Lapadula theorem and where is it used? What is a covert channel and how do you protect against it? What is the difference between spawning and forking? How are named vs. unnamed pipes used, and what is their relationship to semaphores and sockets? CS-networking Compare and c
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Gawd, are we still on this thread? This whole question of "which is harder" is (to use a technical term) dumb. Which is harder, number theory or translating Beowulf? How about coaching a pro football team vs. directing a movie like lord of the rings? This whole thing is becoming an apples vs oranges argument. what follows may be outdated, but it's my story and i'm stickin' to it. it's based on experience with a local university. On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 17:41, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > I hope the smiley means you aren't serious. Let me pose some CS > questions, which I swear are off the top of my head. In all > fairness, I'm not sure if some of these will be advanced > undergraduate or graduate level, but we have been talking about CCIE > vs. PhD... I have tried to select questions that bear on real > networks. > > CS-programming. > Compare and contrast NP-hard, NP-complete, and NP-incomplete algorithms > Review the optimal search and update algorithms for trees and tries. > Identify four major searching and sorting algorithms and describe their > advantages and disadvantages where i went to school, this was CS 594 territory - 2nd year MS students. > Extract a square root using Newton-Raphson iteration, or select a > different > method and explain why it is superior. high school? the analysis part would be more of a CS thing, but it doesn't really fit into undergrad discrete math programs either, so perhaps it's a grad school topic. > Describe a strategy for change control in a programming team. The > software > library will include documentation, source, linkable elements, and > executables. this is so undertaught in school that it really irritates me just thinking about it. This is one that you have to be a pro to grok. > What record locking mechanisms are needed to ensure integrity of a > hierarchical linked list? i've hired numerous programmers from cs that don't comprehend multithreading at all. perhaps this is another learn-on-the-job thing, or at least something learned indirectly while engaging in school projects. these issues are particularly significant in the context of threaded programming, but UNIX hasn't had good thread support until recently, and the "good" is arguable, outside of solaris. I'd be interested to hear from other CS students to know if issues like this were a part of your education. > What are the types of commitment protocols and the basic ACID properties > of transactions? CS 570, 2nd year MS students. > How can a buffer overflow be exploited to gain control? haha... i wish this were taught... it'd make for better programmers. think java and stl here - programming instruction never gets this detailed, except *maybe* in assembly or computer architecture classes, and even then you'd have to expect a student to reason through it and figure it out - they wouldn't be taught this. > Build a Monte Carlo simulator for network traffic following Markov, > exponential, fractal, and Erlang B and C pdf's for both interarrival > and service time. CS 522, second-year MS students > Characterize the major conceptual differences among the FORTH, FORTRAN > IV, > LISP, PROLOG, Pascal, C, Ada, C++ and SQL languages > Give examples of data structures using isomorphism, homomorphism, and > monomorphism. > What is a context-free grammar? > Differentiate between abstract syntax, operational semantics, and > transfer > syntax. compiler design classes in undergrad, probably, but the compare/contrast question is unanswerable by most undergrads due to lack of experience with many of those languages. And, you're forgetting java. :-) > > > CS-operating systems > Describe the difference between a kernel and a microkernel and their > relationships to operating systems. > Discuss strategies for managing buffer allocation, fragmentation, and > garbage collection. > Compare and contrast polling versus interrupts in a real-time OS. > Describe at least four major types of multiprocessing. You may include > multistream single processors. > How can you do a hitless software upgrade on a real-time OS? > Differentiate between processes, tasks, and threads in POSIX. > Describe the requirements for transparent failover among multiple > processors, including the context switching issues. > What are the differences between reentrancy and serial reusability? > Compare backup strategies and management, including serial media, > various types of RAID, and write-once optical storage. > What is a deadly embrace? > What is the difference between mandatory and discretionary access > control? > Is compartmentation orthogonal to sensitivity? > What is the Bell-Lapadula theorem and where is it used? > What is a covert channel and how do you protect against it? > What is the differenc
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
>> >Yet I doubt that John Chambers ever read an RFC before in his life. But > >let's face it. Let's be totally and completely honest. I know this might > >come across as a low-blow, but at the end of the day, who really has more > >influence on the direction of the networking industry - the best CCIE in the > >world, or Mr. Chambers? > > Let's not forget a third path. Vint Cerf (PhD and Worldcom senior > VP). Scott Bradner. Fred Baker. Sandy Lerner and Len Bosack as > innovators rather than corporate managers. Bill Carrico. Deborah > Estrin. Other innovators that start major technologies. Aha - you just said it right there. It's DOCTOR Vint Cerf. It's not CCIE Vint Cerf, but Doctor Vint Cerf. The point is that not a person above has a CCIE to their name. > > For that matter, consider Ira Magaziner, Esther Dyson, Newton Minow, > Charlie Brown (AT&T, not Peanuts), etc. Brown is interesting in that > he worked his way up to AT&T CEO from a starting job as a cable > splicer. In today's communications world, I would have said that > could never happen again, given CEOs tend to come from finance or > sales --- but I look now at Enron, Worldcom, etc., and wonder. Yet again - how many CCIE's in that mix? I would venture to say about zero. See, that's my point. If you just want to be a box-slinger, by all means get the CCIE. If you actually want to change the industry, it's far less powerful. That's my point. > > > > > >Yet in the eyes of a company, how are you supposed to know that a candidate > >is a slacker? Every candidate is going to claim to be the greatest worker > >in the world, but how do you know that they're telling the truth - > >particularly when they have no work record to judge them by? > > Exactly. Different rules apply to new and established job seekers. I > haven't gone through a conventional job-seeking process in years -- > either I was recruited or I helped create a position. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60196&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Someone, somewhere along this thread mentioned quantum computing/programmingin my effort to add tangents to an already fragmented thread (although I am immensely enjoying the nrf/Berkowitz segment, even if I can't even begin to answer the questions posed), here ya go! http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/voss1202.asp Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60204&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
While Mr. Ladrach is almost certainly correct in his statement that the CCIE is less challenging that physics and calculus, he might be able to speak more authoritatively once he has passed the Lab Exam. As for being easier than accounting and economics classes, if you are reasonably intelligent and do all the homework, you will almost certainly pass most accounting and economics classes. You can be reasonably intelligent, do all the right things in preparation for the CCIE lab, and fail and fail and fail again. While I would certainly say that the CCIE material is less difficult to learn than some other subjects I have studied, I can honestly say that I have never studied so hard for one test in my life, or gotten myself into a state where I had such an "edge"-- a certain sharpness and facility with a given subject matter that I fear I may never experience again (unless I go for a second CCIE). It is not rocket science, but you have to execute VERY well. As for nrf, - his contributions to groupstudy have been almost entirely negative. While it is helpful to have some discussion of things like the job market and the question of whether it is better to invest time and effort in a degree versus certification is useful, constantly chiming in with negative thoughts and assessments is not very helpful. This is something of a support group, and in these difficult times, those of us who have already set out to achieve certification goals need encouragement and technical advice. I do not know if nrf is one of these people (he could just be negative for no particular reason), there are some people who come to these discussion groups to discourage others from pursuing dreams the achievement of which might bring about a greater number of certified IT professionals and perhaps exert downward pressure on salaries. For the record, I studied and practiced hard, and passed the CCIE lab with precious little "industry experience." I found a great job in a great company within two months of passing the CCIE Lab, and I had a few other interested folks contact me for interviews. I certainly cannot make any promises about the future, but my point is that if you can get all the way to passing the CCIE lab, you will probably not regret it. This journey is worthwhile, and don't let a bunch of naysayers get you down. That said, if you are very young and considering certification as an alternative to a college degree, understand that the college degree (even a BA) and what you should learn in the process of gaining it, can be very helpful. Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014 ""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > At 9:16 PM + 1/2/03, l0stbyte wrote: > >Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: > > > >> I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of > >> Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no > >> more than > >> a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! > >> College > >> is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is > >> there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business > >> degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I > have > >> you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. > >> > >> When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. > >> > >> Calculus > >> Physics > >> Finance > >> Accounting > >> Economics > >> CS-programming > >> CS-operating systems > >> CS-networking > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Ladrach > >> CCNA, CCNP > >> WorldCom > >All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some > >kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by > >far more challenging. My two cents.. > >:) > > I hope the smiley means you aren't serious. Let me pose some CS > questions, which I swear are off the top of my head. In all > fairness, I'm not sure if some of these will be advanced > undergraduate or graduate level, but we have been talking about CCIE > vs. PhD... I have tried to select questions that bear on real > networks. > > CS-programming. > Compare and contrast NP-hard, NP-complete, and NP-incomplete algorithms > Review the optimal search and update algorithms for trees and tries. > Identify four major searching and sorting algorithms and describe their > advantages and disadvantages > Extract a square root using Newton-Raphson iteration, or select a > different > method and explain why it is superior. > Describe a strategy for change control in a programming team. The > software > library will include documentation, source, linkable elements, and > executables. > What record locking mechanisms are needed to ensure integrity of a > hierarchical linked list? > What are the types of commitment protocols and the basic ACID properties > of transactions? > How can a buffer overflo
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Thomas Larus"" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> While Mr. Ladrach is almost certainly correct in his statement that the
CCIE
> is less challenging that physics and calculus, he might be able to speak
> more authoritatively once he has passed the Lab Exam.
>
> As for being easier than accounting and economics classes, if you are
> reasonably intelligent and do all the homework, you will almost certainly
> pass most accounting and economics classes. You can be reasonably
> intelligent, do all the right things in preparation for the CCIE lab, and
> fail and fail and fail again.
>
> While I would certainly say that the CCIE material is less difficult to
> learn than some other subjects I have studied, I can honestly say that I
> have never studied so hard for one test in my life, or gotten myself into
a
> state where I had such an "edge"-- a certain sharpness and facility with a
> given subject matter that I fear I may never experience again (unless I go
> for a second CCIE). It is not rocket science, but you have to execute
VERY
> well.
>
> As for nrf, - his contributions to groupstudy have been almost entirely
> negative. While it is helpful to have some discussion of things like the
job
> market and the question of whether it is better to invest time and effort
in
> a degree versus certification is useful, constantly chiming in with
negative
> thoughts and assessments is not very helpful. This is something of a
> support group, and in these difficult times, those of us who have already
> set out to achieve certification goals need encouragement and technical
> advice.
>
> I do not know if nrf is one of these people (he could just be negative for
> no particular reason), there are some people who come to these discussion
> groups to discourage others from pursuing dreams the achievement of which
> might bring about a greater number of certified IT professionals and
perhaps
> exert downward pressure on salaries.
I didn't realize that I was supposed to be people's personal cheerleader.
Uh, since when exactly did that become part of my job? I don't remember
seeing anything about 'emotional support' when I signed up for this NG.
We're all adults here (I hope). I see no need to patronize anybody. I'm
not your father and I'm not your shrink. You want support? You should go
talk to your significant other. You want the truth? Come here and talk to
me or some of the other people here. I don't see it as my job to pat people
on the back. Like I said, we're all adults here and we shouldn't need that.
Look, I am here neither to encourage nor discourage. I call it like I see
it, - and if that encourages or discourages people, then fine, but that's
not my goal. If things are good, then I'll say they're good, and if things
are bad, I'm going to say they're bad. To do otherwise is really to engage
in a pernicious form of censorship. This would not be a far cry from a
situation where, before anybody asks a question on this NG, a person should
immediately and privately email everybody here and tell them exactly how
they should respond - therefore when he does ask the question, he will get
the exact answer he wants. But if that's what this NG is all about, then
why even bother to post on the NG at all - why not just have a conversation
with yourself? That way you will always get the exact answer that you are
looking for. "Should I do this?" "Well, of course, and by the way, aren't
you wonderful and handsome...".
After all, if something is bad, especially as it pertains to the job market,
isn't it better to hear it now rather than find out later the hard way?
How exactly does it help anybody to tell people fantasies about how the CCIE
is the greatest thing since sliced bread when we all know that it is not?
In the long run, does this really help anybody? Isn't it more helpful to
tell people the truth? {And when exactly have I posted something that was a
lie?}
One funny phenomenom that I've discovered is that some people think that
through my posts I am encouraging people whereas others think, via those
exact same posts, that I am discouraging them. Delicious irony. Those
detractors should get together and figure it out amongst themselves and then
come back here and tell me what they've decided.
>
> For the record, I studied and practiced hard, and passed the CCIE lab with
> precious little "industry experience." I found a great job in a great
> company within two months of passing the CCIE Lab, and I had a few other
> interested folks contact me for interviews.
>
> I certainly cannot make any promises about the future, but my point is
that
> if you can get all the way to passing the CCIE lab, you will probably not
> regret it. This journey is worthwhile, and don't let a bunch of naysayers
> get you down.
>
> That said, if you are very young and considering certification as an
> alternative to a college degree, understand that the college degree (even
a
> BA
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Thomas Larus wrote: snip > As for nrf, - his contributions to groupstudy have been almost entirely > negative. While it is helpful to have some discussion of things like the job > market and the question of whether it is better to invest time and effort in > a degree versus certification is useful, constantly chiming in with negative > thoughts and assessments is not very helpful. This is something of a > support group, and in these difficult times, those of us who have already > set out to achieve certification goals need encouragement and technical > advice. I have recently strongly disagreed with nrf, but I do not find him negative as you suggest. I think it's a shame if people cannot contribute without being personally attacked in such a generalised manner. > I do not know if nrf is one of these people (he could just be negative for > no particular reason), there are some people who come to these discussion > groups to discourage others from pursuing dreams the achievement of which > might bring about a greater number of certified IT professionals and perhaps > exert downward pressure on salaries. I don't know nrf personally but I doubt that he's that influential. Anybody who gets put off the cert process by reading a discouraging viewpoint on this list probably doesn't have the mettle to see it through anyway. rgds Marc Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60271&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Marc Thach Xuan Ky"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Thomas Larus wrote: > snip > > As for nrf, - his contributions to groupstudy have been almost entirely > > negative. While it is helpful to have some discussion of things like the > job > > market and the question of whether it is better to invest time and effort > in > > a degree versus certification is useful, constantly chiming in with > negative > > thoughts and assessments is not very helpful. This is something of a > > support group, and in these difficult times, those of us who have already > > set out to achieve certification goals need encouragement and technical > > advice. > > I have recently strongly disagreed with nrf, but I do not find him > negative as you suggest. I think it's a shame if people cannot > contribute without being personally attacked in such a generalised > manner. > > > I do not know if nrf is one of these people (he could just be negative for > > no particular reason), there are some people who come to these discussion > > groups to discourage others from pursuing dreams the achievement of which > > might bring about a greater number of certified IT professionals and > perhaps > > exert downward pressure on salaries. > > I don't know nrf personally but I doubt that he's that influential. > Anybody who gets put off the cert process by reading a discouraging > viewpoint on this list probably doesn't have the mettle to see it > through anyway. Exactly. I think Mr. Larus gives me far too much credit. Besides, I doubt that I'm saying anything that people don't already know, or at least suspect. Certs have their good and bad points, and people who elect to pursue them should understand what those good and bad points are. It's really as simple as that. > > rgds > Marc Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60272&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Deep Thoughts from Jack Handy. I I personally enjoy posts by nrf! Someone that has a sense of humor, its a good thing. Thank you and God bless, Jack Handy >From: "nrf" >Reply-To: "nrf" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] >Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 03:20:52 GMT > >""Marc Thach Xuan Ky"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Thomas Larus wrote: > > snip > > > As for nrf, - his contributions to groupstudy have been almost >entirely > > > negative. While it is helpful to have some discussion of things like >the > > job > > > market and the question of whether it is better to invest time and >effort > > in > > > a degree versus certification is useful, constantly chiming in with > > negative > > > thoughts and assessments is not very helpful. This is something of a > > > support group, and in these difficult times, those of us who have >already > > > set out to achieve certification goals need encouragement and >technical > > > advice. > > > > I have recently strongly disagreed with nrf, but I do not find him > > negative as you suggest. I think it's a shame if people cannot > > contribute without being personally attacked in such a generalised > > manner. > > > > > I do not know if nrf is one of these people (he could just be negative >for > > > no particular reason), there are some people who come to these >discussion > > > groups to discourage others from pursuing dreams the achievement of >which > > > might bring about a greater number of certified IT professionals and > > perhaps > > > exert downward pressure on salaries. > > > > I don't know nrf personally but I doubt that he's that influential. > > Anybody who gets put off the cert process by reading a discouraging > > viewpoint on this list probably doesn't have the mettle to see it > > through anyway. > >Exactly. I think Mr. Larus gives me far too much credit. > >Besides, I doubt that I'm saying anything that people don't already know, >or >at least suspect. Certs have their good and bad points, and people who >elect to pursue them should understand what those good and bad points are. >It's really as simple as that. > > > > rgds > > Marc _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60283&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
> For the record, I studied and practiced hard, and passed the CCIE lab with > precious little "industry experience." I found a great job in a great > company within two months of passing the CCIE Lab, and I had a few other > interested folks contact me for interviews. The demagoguery of this whole thread aside, my experience was much the same as Mr. Larus'. I had little industry experience and also found exactly the job I wanted in exactly the place I wanted for exactly the money that I asked for within two and a half months. I also had three other offers and a series of five interviews with a prominent multinational whose only concern was my lack of customer facing time as I was interviewing for a pre-sales role. As I am a high school dropout with only a couple years of university to my credit, you can more clearly see the effect of the CCIE on my career than on Mr. Larus' as he was a lawyer in his previous incarnation and hence brings allot to the table outside of the CCIE even without much industry experience. Every one of the CCIEs that I know is working aside from one that is dedicating more time to flying RC gliders off a cliff in San Francisco than job searching:) If you want to get a good job in the networking field, the CCIE is a great path to take. If you would rather rise to the top management of Cisco or some other Fortune 500 company you are better off with a degree... or perhaps even better, many hours in the garden watching some rapacious slug devour and assimilate everything in its path. Keep in mind that business (like government and unlike fish) is curious in that the bottomfeeders congregate at the top. YMMV and gas is about to get more expensive, Geoff Zinderdine CCIE #10410 P.S. Tom, is your career recapitulating phylogeny? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60286&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Geoff Zinderdine"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > For the record, I studied and practiced hard, and passed the CCIE lab with > > precious little "industry experience." I found a great job in a great > > company within two months of passing the CCIE Lab, and I had a few other > > interested folks contact me for interviews. > > The demagoguery of this whole thread aside, my experience was much the same > as Mr. Larus'. I had little industry experience and also found exactly the > job I wanted in exactly the place I wanted for exactly the money that I > asked for within two and a half months. I also had three other offers and > a series of five interviews with a prominent multinational whose only > concern was my lack of customer facing time as I was interviewing for a > pre-sales role. As I am a high school dropout with only a couple years of > university to my credit, you can more clearly see the effect of the CCIE on > my career than on Mr. Larus' as he was a lawyer in his previous > incarnation and hence brings allot to the table outside of the CCIE even > without much industry experience. Every one of the CCIEs that I know is > working aside from one that is dedicating more time to flying RC gliders off > a cliff in San Francisco than job searching:) Geez, ever go to the jobs NG? It's absolutely filled with jobless CCIE's. > > If you want to get a good job in the networking field, the CCIE is a great > path to take. Just bear in mind that the CCIE guarantees nothing. There are plenty of unemployed CCIE's out there. > If you would rather rise to the top management of Cisco or > some other Fortune 500 company you are better off with a degree... or > perhaps even better, many hours in the garden watching some rapacious slug > devour and assimilate everything in its path. Keep in mind that business > (like government and unlike fish) is curious in that the bottomfeeders > congregate at the top. Uh, sounds curiously like a case of sour grapes. Guys who are at the top of the business world make more money in a week than we make in a year. More to the point, in my experience, it's always better to be the one giving orders than to be the one taking them. Why do you think the comic strip Dilbert is so popular? Sure, the pointy-haired boss might not know anything, but at the end of the day, he's still the one giving orders. > > YMMV and gas is about to get more expensive, > > Geoff Zinderdine > CCIE #10410 > > P.S. Tom, is your career recapitulating phylogeny? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60303&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
> Uh, sounds curiously like a case of sour grapes. Guys who are at the top of > the business world make more money in a week than we make in a year. More > to the point, in my experience, it's always better to be the one giving > orders than to be the one taking them. Why do you think the comic strip > Dilbert is so popular? Sure, the pointy-haired boss might not know > anything, but at the end of the day, he's still the one giving orders. You seem to suffer from that curious American disease of equating money with career fulfilment and happiness. There is no sour grapes at all, and throughout my various career paths I have chosen what made me happy over what made me rich. This is not to say that I want to work for free, but I am quite happy making what I do in a year. I have no desire to do a job I loathe to make more money. I couldn't care less who gives orders. There is far more nobility in serving well than in managing poorly. I have never been interested in corporate culture... and the revelations of the wrongdoings of American business over the past few years point to exactly why I am not. It is far better to be ethical and content than to try to devour the world with one's greed. Regards, Geoff Zinderdine CCIE #10410 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60304&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Geoff Zinderdine"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Uh, sounds curiously like a case of sour grapes. Guys who are at the top > of > > the business world make more money in a week than we make in a year. More > > to the point, in my experience, it's always better to be the one giving > > orders than to be the one taking them. Why do you think the comic strip > > Dilbert is so popular? Sure, the pointy-haired boss might not know > > anything, but at the end of the day, he's still the one giving orders. > > You seem to suffer from that curious American disease of equating money with > career fulfilment and happiness. There is no sour grapes at all, and > throughout my various career paths I have chosen what made me happy over > what made me rich. This is not to say that I want to work for free, but I > am quite happy making what I do in a year. I have no desire to do a job I > loathe to make more money. I couldn't care less who gives orders. There is > far more nobility in serving well than in managing poorly. Hey, if you're cool with that, then that's cool.That's always been my point - if you're happy being the technical guy who's taking orders from other people, then God bless you, everything that I say doesn't apply to you. But on the other hand, even you agree that there are a lot of people (not just Americans, but a lot of people in the world) who want money. For some of these people, it is precisely money that brings them happiness. And who's to say that you can't have a happy career that also happens to produce a lot of money? I don't see it as an either-or choice. Sure, some rich people are unhappy. But go to the bad, poverty-stricken part of town, and you'll see some REALLY unhappy people. I volunteer for various charities, and I spent the holidays providing toys for needy people who couldn't afford to buy simple gifts for their children. I was happy to help out, but that's some real misery I was looking at. > > I have never been interested in corporate culture... and the revelations of > the wrongdoings of American business over the past few years point to > exactly why I am not. It is far better to be ethical and content than to > try to devour the world with one's greed. Like I said, if you're happy with your lot, then God bless you. But again, I don't see that business success and ethics is necessarily an either-or choice. You can be successful and ethical. And besides, I don't know that ethics has anything to do with this argument. CCIE's can be just as unethical as anybody else. > > Regards, > > Geoff Zinderdine > CCIE #10410 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60305&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
> But on the other hand, even you agree that there are a lot of people (not > just Americans, but a lot of people in the world) who want money. For some > of these people, it is precisely money that brings them happiness. And > who's to say that you can't have a happy career that also happens to produce > a lot of money? I don't see it as an either-or choice. You can, and I do. I also don't see it as an either or choice. I just don't equate reaching the top management of a big company and having their astronomical salaries as the summum bonum of existence. > Sure, some rich > people are unhappy. But go to the bad, poverty-stricken part of town, and > you'll see some REALLY unhappy people. I volunteer for various charities, > and I spent the holidays providing toys for needy people who couldn't afford > to buy simple gifts for their children. I was happy to help out, but > that's some real misery I was looking at. These aren't the only two options. The vast middle ground between misery and misery is where I want to live. I have learned more from my defeats than from my successes and I have lived in those neighborhoods for much of my life. They are a fertile ground. > Like I said, if you're happy with your lot, then God bless you. But again, > I don't see that business success and ethics is necessarily an either-or > choice. You can be successful and ethical. > > And besides, I don't know that ethics has anything to do with this argument. > CCIE's can be just as unethical as anybody else. Yes of course they can, but that isn't the issue. The issue is what kind of life you have in the upper echelons of management. Like in politics however, you have to give up certain principles and worldviews in order to succeed in most if not all corporate cultures. I value the principles that I have which have more to do with working for the good of others over one's own selfish needs more than I value the uncompromising pursuit of self interest that is intrinsic in the corporate world. The pursuit of outrageous wealth is full of compromises I am unwilling to make. That said, are there those that have kept true to their principles and become wealthy? Of course. They have generally done it by *owning* companies, not managing them. All of this discussion speaks again to people having to decide on a path which fulfils them rather than merely applying statistical probability to very important decisions. :) Geoff Zinderdine CCIE #10410 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60306&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Geoff Zinderdine"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > But on the other hand, even you agree that there are a lot of people (not > > just Americans, but a lot of people in the world) who want money. For > some > > of these people, it is precisely money that brings them happiness. And > > who's to say that you can't have a happy career that also happens to > produce > > a lot of money? I don't see it as an either-or choice. > > You can, and I do. I also don't see it as an either or choice. I just > don't equate reaching the top management of a big company and having their > astronomical salaries as the summum bonum of existence. Fine, like I said, if my arguments don't apply to you, then so be it. My point was that for quite a few people, reaching the top of the summit really is their sine-qua-non. Again, I would state the question again for anybody who's still reading this (not you, Geoff). Be honest with yourself. Be completely and totally honest with yourself. Will you be happy just being the technical box-slinger for a long time, and perhaps for the rest of your life? If the answer really is 'yes', then you can probably safely forgo the degree. But if you have even the slightest shred of doubt, I would counsel you to cover your bases.Again, this doesn't apply to you, Geoff, cuz I know what your answer is going to be. This applies to anybody else out there. > > > Sure, some rich > > people are unhappy. But go to the bad, poverty-stricken part of town, and > > you'll see some REALLY unhappy people. I volunteer for various charities, > > and I spent the holidays providing toys for needy people who couldn't > afford > > to buy simple gifts for their children. I was happy to help out, but > > that's some real misery I was looking at. > > These aren't the only two options. The vast middle ground between misery > and misery is where I want to live. I have learned more from my defeats > than from my successes and I have lived in those neighborhoods for much of > my life. They are a fertile ground. Actually, most studies have shown that the more money people get the happier they tend to be. Sure, the dh/d$ (where h = happiness) decreases over time, but it is still a positive number. Again, that's not to say that all rich people are happy, but they tend to be more happy on average than people who are not as rich, and much more happy than people who are poor. Don't get me wrong. I'm not counseling that people should drop everything to make more money. Obviously there is more to happiness than just money. But money does play a role. > > > Like I said, if you're happy with your lot, then God bless you. But > again, > > I don't see that business success and ethics is necessarily an either-or > > choice. You can be successful and ethical. > > > > And besides, I don't know that ethics has anything to do with this > argument. > > CCIE's can be just as unethical as anybody else. > > Yes of course they can, but that isn't the issue. The issue is what kind of > life you have in the upper echelons of management. Like in politics > however, you have to give up certain principles and worldviews in order to > succeed in most if not all corporate cultures. I value the principles that > I have which have more to do with working for the good of others over one's > own selfish needs more than I value the uncompromising pursuit of self > interest that is intrinsic in the corporate world. I would argue that if this is really a concern, then one excellent way to alleviate this problem (if it is a problem) is the higher up you go, the more charity work you do. Not that I'm trying to pat myself on the back, but that's exactly what I've done. Sure, you might be a tough bastard from 9-5, but after hours, with the extra money you've made, you're giving back to the community. If you say that working for the good of others is truly the goal here, then by being more successful and making more money, you have more to give to others. >The pursuit of > outrageous wealth is full of compromises I am unwilling to make. That said, > are there those that have kept true to their principles and become wealthy? > Of course. They have generally done it by *owning* companies, not managing > them. All of this discussion speaks again to people having to decide on a > path which fulfils them rather than merely applying statistical probability > to very important decisions. Forget about a strict adherance to principles. Let's talk about overall net good. Andrew Carnegie was an unbelievably tough businessman. But when he died, he gave all his money to public causes - i.e. Carnegie-Mellon University, much of the American public library system, etc. The net good that Carnegie gave to the world was, I believe, highly positive. John Rockefeller - also a rough and tumble businessman, maybe the roughest of all, but also founded Rockefeller University, the University of Chicago
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 11:12 PM + 1/4/03, nrf wrote: > > >So if it's doing public good that concerns you, then the more successful you >are, the more you have to give. Let's face it - it's not going to be easy >to create a charitable foundation that helps millions of people the way the >Rockefeller Foundation did if you're working for minimum wage. Did I miss something about Mother Teresa's pay scale? I never said she wasn't tough. Anyone who pays a visit to the hospital bed of the then-Mayor of New York (Ed Koch) recovering from a heart attack, blesses him, and then hits on him for more reserved parking places for her missions is TOUGH. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60316&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > At 11:12 PM + 1/4/03, nrf wrote: > > > > > > >So if it's doing public good that concerns you, then the more successful you > >are, the more you have to give. Let's face it - it's not going to be easy > >to create a charitable foundation that helps millions of people the way the > >Rockefeller Foundation did if you're working for minimum wage. > > Did I miss something about Mother Teresa's pay scale? > > I never said she wasn't tough. Anyone who pays a visit to the > hospital bed of the then-Mayor of New York (Ed Koch) recovering from > a heart attack, blesses him, and then hits on him for more reserved > parking places for her missions is TOUGH. Touche, but the point I was trying to make was this. I don't want this to come off as a low-blow, and I'm certainly not accusing anybody here of being two-faced. But I've heard the argument before from people who say that they don't want to enter the business world, or climb the corporate ladder because they think that Corporate America is corrupt and they are more concerned with being ethical and doing good for the community. Yet many of these same people (not all, but many) do little if anything for the community that they claim to care for. Which begs the question that if you choose not to follow the rules of Big Business because you think it's evil and you are concerned with doing and being good, then why aren't you doing good works? Hmmm. Now, let me reiterate. The above paragraph might be construed as an attempt by me to take a shot at certain people here. Not at all. I'm just stating a phenomenom that I have seen from some people not on this NG. By the way, while Mother Teresa may not have personally had a lot of money, her practice obviously got money from somewhere. You can't feed and care for thousands without some kind of financial backing. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60322&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 1:21 AM + 1/5/03, nrf wrote: >""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> At 11:12 PM + 1/4/03, nrf wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >So if it's doing public good that concerns you, then the more successful >you >> >are, the more you have to give. Let's face it - it's not going to be >easy >> >to create a charitable foundation that helps millions of people the way >the >> >Rockefeller Foundation did if you're working for minimum wage. >> >> Did I miss something about Mother Teresa's pay scale? >> >> I never said she wasn't tough. Anyone who pays a visit to the >> hospital bed of the then-Mayor of New York (Ed Koch) recovering from >> a heart attack, blesses him, and then hits on him for more reserved >> parking places for her missions is TOUGH. > >Touche, but the point I was trying to make was this. > >I don't want this to come off as a low-blow, and I'm certainly not accusing >anybody here of being two-faced. But I've heard the argument before from >people who say that they don't want to enter the business world, or climb >the corporate ladder because they think that Corporate America is corrupt >and they are more concerned with being ethical and doing good for the >community. Yet many of these same people (not all, but many) do little if >anything for the community that they claim to care for. Which begs the >question that if you choose not to follow the rules of Big Business because >you think it's evil and you are concerned with doing and being good, then >why aren't you doing good works? Hmmm. I can speak only for myself here. I've not been interested in going into corporate top management because I don't enjoy the things even very good, very ethical top managers need to do. Yes, I'll wander around exchanging ideas with colleagues and keep track of what my developers are doing, but I have no interest in coming up with the latest optimization for shareholder value, for mergers and acquisitions, for untangling turf battles, etc. But I am in the business world. I know I need to do budgets and funding justifications for my own projects, and monitor schedules for my own people. I'd rather not spend all my time doing that. I enjoy individual technical mentoring. I won't say I'm quite like Steve Wozniak, who made his pile from pure engineering, and now mostly does elementary school teaching because he enjoys kids. Personally, I'm a pedophobe. At the same time, I can't ever see retiring because I have too much fun doing what I do. My community service, if you will, tends to be at a policy level -- I'm involved in privacy policy, information technology in county government, sexual rights, interdisciplinary stuff between medicine and computing. I've been a road warrior enough that I'd far rather try to grow a new herb in my garden than take a grand tour to Paris. Bad example. I've never had a good experience in Paris. London, Tokyo, or Amsterdam, maybe, but my first priority would be who takes care of the cats (Cat 1's, not 6500's. Single tail circuit, four sets of connectors, null male or female interfaces). > >Now, let me reiterate. The above paragraph might be construed as an attempt >by me to take a shot at certain people here. Not at all. I'm just stating >a phenomenom that I have seen from some people not on this NG. > >By the way, while Mother Teresa may not have personally had a lot of money, >her practice obviously got money from somewhere. You can't feed and care >for thousands without some kind of financial backing. Of course not. But she didn't have to demonstrate MBA-type skills to a corporate hierarchy to get there. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60328&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
BTW, wasn't Mother Teresa also a CCIE?! ;) >From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" >Reply-To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] >Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 04:33:23 GMT > >At 1:21 AM + 1/5/03, nrf wrote: > >""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > >> At 11:12 PM + 1/4/03, nrf wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >So if it's doing public good that concerns you, then the more successful > >you > >> >are, the more you have to give. Let's face it - it's not going to be > >easy > >> >to create a charitable foundation that helps millions of people the way > >the > >> >Rockefeller Foundation did if you're working for minimum wage. > >> > >> Did I miss something about Mother Teresa's pay scale? > >> > >> I never said she wasn't tough. Anyone who pays a visit to the > >> hospital bed of the then-Mayor of New York (Ed Koch) recovering from > >> a heart attack, blesses him, and then hits on him for more reserved > >> parking places for her missions is TOUGH. > > > >Touche, but the point I was trying to make was this. > > > >I don't want this to come off as a low-blow, and I'm certainly not accusing > >anybody here of being two-faced. But I've heard the argument before from > >people who say that they don't want to enter the business world, or climb > >the corporate ladder because they think that Corporate America is corrupt > >and they are more concerned with being ethical and doing good for the > >community. Yet many of these same people (not all, but many) do little if > >anything for the community that they claim to care for. Which begs the > >question that if you choose not to follow the rules of Big Business because > >you think it's evil and you are concerned with doing and being good, then > >why aren't you doing good works? Hmmm. > >I can speak only for myself here. I've not been interested in going >into corporate top management because I don't enjoy the things even >very good, very ethical top managers need to do. Yes, I'll wander >around exchanging ideas with colleagues and keep track of what my >developers are doing, but I have no interest in coming up with the >latest optimization for shareholder value, for mergers and >acquisitions, for untangling turf battles, etc. > >But I am in the business world. I know I need to do budgets and >funding justifications for my own projects, and monitor schedules for >my own people. I'd rather not spend all my time doing that. I enjoy >individual technical mentoring. > >I won't say I'm quite like Steve Wozniak, who made his pile from pure >engineering, and now mostly does elementary school teaching because >he enjoys kids. Personally, I'm a pedophobe. At the same time, I >can't ever see retiring because I have too much fun doing what I do. >My community service, if you will, tends to be at a policy level -- >I'm involved in privacy policy, information technology in county >government, sexual rights, interdisciplinary stuff between medicine >and computing. > >I've been a road warrior enough that I'd far rather try to grow a new >herb in my garden than take a grand tour to Paris. Bad example. I've >never had a good experience in Paris. London, Tokyo, or Amsterdam, >maybe, but my first priority would be who takes care of the cats (Cat >1's, not 6500's. Single tail circuit, four sets of connectors, null >male or female interfaces). > > > > >Now, let me reiterate. The above paragraph might be construed as an attempt > >by me to take a shot at certain people here. Not at all. I'm just stating > >a phenomenom that I have seen from some people not on this NG. > > > >By the way, while Mother Teresa may not have personally had a lot of money, > >her practice obviously got money from somewhere. You can't feed and care > >for thousands without some kind of financial backing. > >Of course not. But she didn't have to demonstrate MBA-type skills to >a corporate hierarchy to get there. > > > misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60333&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Yawn. Isn't this thread finished yet? -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 January 2003 04:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] At 1:21 AM + 1/5/03, nrf wrote: >""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> At 11:12 PM + 1/4/03, nrf wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >So if it's doing public good that concerns you, then the more >> successful >you >> >are, the more you have to give. Let's face it - it's not going to >> be >easy >> >to create a charitable foundation that helps millions of people the >> way >the >> >Rockefeller Foundation did if you're working for minimum wage. >> >> Did I miss something about Mother Teresa's pay scale? >> >> I never said she wasn't tough. Anyone who pays a visit to the >> hospital bed of the then-Mayor of New York (Ed Koch) recovering from >> a heart attack, blesses him, and then hits on him for more reserved >> parking places for her missions is TOUGH. > >Touche, but the point I was trying to make was this. > >I don't want this to come off as a low-blow, and I'm certainly not >accusing anybody here of being two-faced. But I've heard the argument >before from people who say that they don't want to enter the business >world, or climb the corporate ladder because they think that Corporate >America is corrupt and they are more concerned with being ethical and >doing good for the community. Yet many of these same people (not all, but many) do little if >anything for the community that they claim to care for. Which begs the >question that if you choose not to follow the rules of Big Business >because you think it's evil and you are concerned with doing and being good, then >why aren't you doing good works? Hmmm. I can speak only for myself here. I've not been interested in going into corporate top management because I don't enjoy the things even very good, very ethical top managers need to do. Yes, I'll wander around exchanging ideas with colleagues and keep track of what my developers are doing, but I have no interest in coming up with the latest optimization for shareholder value, for mergers and acquisitions, for untangling turf battles, etc. But I am in the business world. I know I need to do budgets and funding justifications for my own projects, and monitor schedules for my own people. I'd rather not spend all my time doing that. I enjoy individual technical mentoring. I won't say I'm quite like Steve Wozniak, who made his pile from pure engineering, and now mostly does elementary school teaching because he enjoys kids. Personally, I'm a pedophobe. At the same time, I can't ever see retiring because I have too much fun doing what I do. My community service, if you will, tends to be at a policy level -- I'm involved in privacy policy, information technology in county government, sexual rights, interdisciplinary stuff between medicine and computing. I've been a road warrior enough that I'd far rather try to grow a new herb in my garden than take a grand tour to Paris. Bad example. I've never had a good experience in Paris. London, Tokyo, or Amsterdam, maybe, but my first priority would be who takes care of the cats (Cat 1's, not 6500's. Single tail circuit, four sets of connectors, null male or female interfaces). > >Now, let me reiterate. The above paragraph might be construed as an >attempt by me to take a shot at certain people here. Not at all. I'm >just stating a phenomenom that I have seen from some people not on this >NG. > >By the way, while Mother Teresa may not have personally had a lot of money, >her practice obviously got money from somewhere. You can't feed and care >for thousands without some kind of financial backing. Of course not. But she didn't have to demonstrate MBA-type skills to a corporate hierarchy to get there. = This email has been content filtered and subject to spam filtering. If you consider this email is unsolicited please forward the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and request that the sender's domain be blocked from sending any further emails. = Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60353&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Symon I totally agree with you.Let them continue Piyush --- Symon Thurlow wrote: > Yawn. Isn't this thread finished yet? > > -Original Message- > From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 05 January 2003 04:33 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > > At 1:21 AM + 1/5/03, nrf wrote: > >""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > >> At 11:12 PM + 1/4/03, nrf wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >So if it's doing public good that concerns you, > then the more > >> successful > >you > >> >are, the more you have to give. Let's face it > - it's not going to > >> be > >easy > >> >to create a charitable foundation that helps > millions of people the > > >> way > >the > >> >Rockefeller Foundation did if you're working > for minimum wage. > >> > >> Did I miss something about Mother Teresa's pay > scale? > >> > >> I never said she wasn't tough. Anyone who pays a > visit to the > >> hospital bed of the then-Mayor of New York (Ed > Koch) recovering from > > >> a heart attack, blesses him, and then hits on him > for more reserved > >> parking places for her missions is TOUGH. > > > >Touche, but the point I was trying to make was > this. > > > >I don't want this to come off as a low-blow, and > I'm certainly not > >accusing anybody here of being two-faced. But I've > heard the argument > >before from people who say that they don't want to > enter the business > >world, or climb the corporate ladder because they > think that Corporate > >America is corrupt and they are more concerned with > being ethical and > >doing good for the community. Yet many of these > same people (not all, > but many) do little if > >anything for the community that they claim to care > for. Which begs > the > >question that if you choose not to follow the rules > of Big Business > >because you think it's evil and you are concerned > with doing and being > good, then > >why aren't you doing good works? Hmmm. > > I can speak only for myself here. I've not been > interested in going > into corporate top management because I don't enjoy > the things even > very good, very ethical top managers need to do. > Yes, I'll wander > around exchanging ideas with colleagues and keep > track of what my > developers are doing, but I have no interest in > coming up with the > latest optimization for shareholder value, for > mergers and > acquisitions, for untangling turf battles, etc. > > But I am in the business world. I know I need to do > budgets and > funding justifications for my own projects, and > monitor schedules for > my own people. I'd rather not spend all my time > doing that. I enjoy > individual technical mentoring. > > I won't say I'm quite like Steve Wozniak, who made > his pile from pure > engineering, and now mostly does elementary school > teaching because > he enjoys kids. Personally, I'm a pedophobe. At the > same time, I > can't ever see retiring because I have too much fun > doing what I do. > My community service, if you will, tends to be at a > policy level -- > I'm involved in privacy policy, information > technology in county > government, sexual rights, interdisciplinary stuff > between medicine > and computing. > > I've been a road warrior enough that I'd far rather > try to grow a new > herb in my garden than take a grand tour to Paris. > Bad example. I've > never had a good experience in Paris. London, Tokyo, > or Amsterdam, > maybe, but my first priority would be who takes care > of the cats (Cat > 1's, not 6500's. Single tail circuit, four sets of > connectors, null > male or female interfaces). > > > > >Now, let me reiterate. The above paragraph might > be construed as an > >attempt by me to take a shot at certain people > here. Not at all. I'm > >just stating a phenomenom that I have seen from > some people not on this > > >NG. > > > >By the way, while Mother Teresa may not have > personally had a lot of > money, > >her practice obviously got money from somewhere. > You can't feed and > care > >for thousands wit
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Very well said!! As I ALWAYS tell my students: You can go to any school (including Harvard) and you can be assured that you WILL pass the exams with a A, B, C or a D grade if you study the material. The CCIE Lab - NO way man!! You can study and study and study ALL the materials and you will either pass or FAIL!!! It's a one shot!! NO way around this. NO grades here. So which one is more difficult?? Take a guess!! >From: "Thomas Larus" >Reply-To: "Thomas Larus" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] >Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:28:29 GMT > >While Mr. Ladrach is almost certainly correct in his statement that the CCIE >is less challenging that physics and calculus, he might be able to speak >more authoritatively once he has passed the Lab Exam. > >As for being easier than accounting and economics classes, if you are >reasonably intelligent and do all the homework, you will almost certainly >pass most accounting and economics classes. You can be reasonably >intelligent, do all the right things in preparation for the CCIE lab, and >fail and fail and fail again. > >While I would certainly say that the CCIE material is less difficult to >learn than some other subjects I have studied, I can honestly say that I >have never studied so hard for one test in my life, or gotten myself into a >state where I had such an "edge"-- a certain sharpness and facility with a >given subject matter that I fear I may never experience again (unless I go >for a second CCIE). It is not rocket science, but you have to execute VERY >well. > >As for nrf, - his contributions to groupstudy have been almost entirely >negative. While it is helpful to have some discussion of things like the job >market and the question of whether it is better to invest time and effort in >a degree versus certification is useful, constantly chiming in with negative >thoughts and assessments is not very helpful. This is something of a >support group, and in these difficult times, those of us who have already >set out to achieve certification goals need encouragement and technical >advice. > >I do not know if nrf is one of these people (he could just be negative for >no particular reason), there are some people who come to these discussion >groups to discourage others from pursuing dreams the achievement of which >might bring about a greater number of certified IT professionals and perhaps >exert downward pressure on salaries. > >For the record, I studied and practiced hard, and passed the CCIE lab with >precious little "industry experience." I found a great job in a great >company within two months of passing the CCIE Lab, and I had a few other >interested folks contact me for interviews. > >I certainly cannot make any promises about the future, but my point is that >if you can get all the way to passing the CCIE lab, you will probably not >regret it. This journey is worthwhile, and don't let a bunch of naysayers >get you down. > >That said, if you are very young and considering certification as an >alternative to a college degree, understand that the college degree (even a >BA) and what you should learn in the process of gaining it, can be very >helpful. > >Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014 > >""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > At 9:16 PM + 1/2/03, l0stbyte wrote: > > >Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: > > > > > >> I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College >of > > >> Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no > > >> more than > > >> a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! > > >> College > > >> is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it >is > > >> there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a >business > > >> degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I > > have > > >> you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same >road. > > >> > > >> When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. > > >> > > >> Calculus > > >> Physics > > >> Finance > > >> Accounting > > >> Economics > > >> CS-programming > > >> CS-operating systems > > >> CS-networking > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Daniel Ladrach > > >> CCNA, CCNP > > >> WorldCom > > >All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not to long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did fairly well. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60518&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
"Cisco Nuts" wrote, >Very well said!! > >As I ALWAYS tell my students: > >You can go to any school (including Harvard) and you can be assured that >you WILL pass the exams with a A, B, C or a D grade if you study the >material. At the undergraduate level. The graduate level requires you demonstrate the ability to do innovative research. The CCIE, in its stated philosophy of not corresponding to best common practice, in the possibility that you lose points for including useful commands, and the logistics of its scoring push toward a particular school solution. > >The CCIE Lab - NO way man!! You can study and study and study ALL the >materials and you will either pass or FAIL!!! It's a one shot!! > >NO way around this. NO grades here. > >So which one is more difficult?? Take a guess!! Big difference between BS and MS/PhD. BS, I might agree could be easier than CCIE. Still, they teach and evaluate different skill sets. I'm not sure I'm articulating this well, but there's an underlying analogy that says that a Super Bowl ring shows you've passed exams more difficult than CCIE. Now, if you had an elite CCIE that required you to configure while staying in the pocket and relying on your blockers... But elite NFL coaches may not have been distinguished players -- the majority were not. A CCIE certainly can configure and troubleshoot a router---but can he or she design one that has competitive functionality? Don't get me wrong -- I know some very good physicians whose hands I'd put my life into -- even though I know their knowledge of the underlying physiology may not be very great. Instinct and dexterity ARE requirements for surgeons. BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor the degree is the ultimate answer. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60524&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Cisco Nuts"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Very well said!! > > As I ALWAYS tell my students: > > You can go to any school (including Harvard) and you can be assured that > you WILL pass the exams with a A, B, C or a D grade if you study the > material. > > The CCIE Lab - NO way man!! You can study and study and study ALL the > materials and you will either pass or FAIL!!! It's a one shot!! > > NO way around this. NO grades here. > > So which one is more difficult?? Take a guess!! Uh, how's that? Consider this. You fail the lab, you take it again. You fail again? You take it again.You can just keep taking it over and over again without penalty. A Harvard degree takes 4 years. I am pretty confident that anybody with half a brain who is willing to take the lab over and over again for 4 years will pass. You might retort that taking the lab over and over again costs a lot of money. Yeah, and Harvard doesn't? Again, take the money that you would have to pay for tuition and just use that for taking the lab over and over again. The hardest part about graduating from Harvard is not passing the classes - it's getting admitted in the first place. If you apply and are not admitted, you gotta wait for a whole another year to apply again. Clearly most high school seniors aren't going to do that - so for them, it's truly a one-shot deal. So, explain to me again how the lab is harder? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60525&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
It's not a fault of CCIE program .It's his mistake ;-) But, Did he receive his number ? Yes ? OK, surely he have a deep knowledge about OSPF, BPG, Redistribute, TCP/IP (except port 80), VoIP, Switching . I think it's enough, and I respect him. - Original Message - From: "Ladrach, Daniel E." To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:57 AM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not to > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did > fairly well. > > Daniel Ladrach > CCNA, CCNP > WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60527&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
I have heard these stories for years now. They always start with ... I knew a guy who knew a guy that was a CCIE and he didn't know this or he didn't know that. We all know what knowledge, skills, dedication, focus, perserverance it takes to pass the CCIE. When I see someone that tries to make themselves feel smarter or downplay the importance/accomplishment of being a CCIE, because of 1 CCIE who did not at that particular moment know something rather trivial, I just laugh. There are no paper CCIEs and there will be none. As long as the integrity of the test remains the way it is. ""2bie"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > It's not a fault of CCIE program .It's his mistake ;-) > But, Did he receive his number ? Yes ? OK, surely he have a deep knowledge > about OSPF, BPG, Redistribute, TCP/IP (except port 80), VoIP, Switching > . I think it's enough, and I respect him. > > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Ladrach, Daniel E." > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:57 AM > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > > > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not > to > > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did > > fairly well. > > > > Daniel Ladrach > > CCNA, CCNP > > WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60528&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
I do respect every CCIE out there. I have friends working on their CCIE's and I see the hard work they are putting in. I know this is not an easy certification to achieve. I also think every CCIE should be proud of their accomplishments. In my opinion an MBA opens more doors. I have never argued which one is better or which is harder; however, a certification should never be used in place of an education. I do believe the best candidate is probably going to have both. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60530&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Thomas"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I have heard these stories for years now. They always start with ... I knew > a guy who knew a guy that was a CCIE and he didn't know this or he didn't > know that. We all know what knowledge, skills, dedication, focus, > perserverance it takes to pass the CCIE. > > When I see someone that tries to make themselves feel smarter or downplay > the importance/accomplishment of being a CCIE, because of 1 CCIE who did > not at that particular moment know something rather trivial, I just laugh. > There are no paper CCIEs and there will be none. As long as the integrity of > the test remains the way it is. The notion of the 'paper-CCIE' is a tricky. Obviously every CCIE has to pass a lab exam, so in that sense they can't be 'paper'. (OK, the exception to this is the well-known problem of guys hiring ringers - basically hiring somebody to take the lab for them while using a fake identification and posing as you- but that's a whole 'nother problem). But on the other hand, there are indeed a significant number of CCIE's out there to which I would never trust a production network. They're not 'paper' because they did pass the lab, but they are basically "lab-CCIE's" because lab-work is the only thing they know. The 'lab-CCIE' (or perhaps the more pejorative term of 'lab-rat') is someone who has zero or minimal experience in a production environment. And let's not beat around the bush - a production network is totally different from a lab. One way to look at it is this. Let's say you're dying and you need an emergency surgery procedure. A doctor comes up to you and says that while he's never actually done the procedure before on a live-person, he's really really good at cutting up cadavers. Do you feel confident, or might you decide to choose another doctor who's actually done the procedure on a live person before? Be completely honest with yourself. Or, before you board an airplane, you hear that this is the first time the pilot has ever actually flown a plane, but he scores high whenever he plays Microsoft Flight Simulator. Are you still going to board the plane? The problem with CCIE's who don't know much is not necessarily the 'paper' aspect but rather the 'lab' aspect of it. Basically, the CCIE can no longer be taken as a guarantee that the guy has strong production experience, whereas in the old days, it was a pretty good guarantee. Let's face it - the CCIE developed a strong brand name in the early days because it was useful as a quick indicator of strong production network skills. Companies could spend less time ascertaining whether candidates had strong practical experience just by looking at a glance to see whether he had a CCIE or not. Now, they have to worry about whether the guy is a lab-rat or not - so they have to look at the guy's experience. Well, if they have to look at a guy's experience anyway, then that basically eliminates, from HR's perspective, the very reason why the CCIE was so valuable to them in the first place. One quick fix that I think Cisco should do for the program is something that the CISSP program does now - mandate X years of verifiable experience before you can attempt the lab. Or, if that seems too harsh, then perhaps Cisco can institute another program that sits on top of the CCIE (call it the CCIM or whatever) and have that program be not only hard, but also use verifiable experience as a pre-req. > > > ""2bie"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > It's not a fault of CCIE program .It's his mistake ;-) > > But, Did he receive his number ? Yes ? OK, surely he have a deep knowledge > > about OSPF, BPG, Redistribute, TCP/IP (except port 80), VoIP, Switching > > . I think it's enough, and I respect him. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Ladrach, Daniel E." > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:57 AM > > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > > > > > > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not > > to > > > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and > did > > > fairly well. > > > > > > Daniel Ladrach > > > CCNA, CCNP > > > WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60531&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
>I'm not sure I'm articulating this well, but there's an underlying >analogy that says that a Super Bowl ring shows you've passed exams >more difficult than CCIE. Now, if you had an elite CCIE that required >you to configure while staying in the pocket and relying on your >blockers... Hey, I'm pretty sure that we've *all* had clients/bosses like that :-) My final $0.02 to this discussion: I've got both the CS degree and the CCIE #, and I'm not giving either one of them back. Both contribute to let me be a more valuable employee. Besides, I'm from the Deion Sanders school of thought: Both. Frank Jimenez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60532&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Thomas, I am sorry to disappoint you about the "THERE IS NO PAPER CCIE" but my younger brother achieved his CCIE status in just over 3 months. He passed the CCIE lab exam in his first try (last July in San Jose). Prior to that, he only had 3 months of networking experiences by playing with our home network. By the way, he has an amazing memory (biology major) so that he just worked on all the lab scenarios and remembered all of them. As I've mentioned before, it took him 6 months to achieve his CCIE status. Anyway, he was fired from his first job for being incompetent, don't know what port 443 is used for. He is now accepting a low paying job just to get up the speed in the networking even though he is a fast learner. The company he is working for demands that he knows everything from Firewalls, routers and programming. He knows that there are unemployed CCIEs out there. The point I am trying to make here is that there are ways to beat the system in achieving the CCIE status and there are "paper CCIEs" out there and my brother is a prime example of that. Just my .02c Eric Thomas wrote:I have heard these stories for years now. They always start with ... I knew a guy who knew a guy that was a CCIE and he didn't know this or he didn't know that. We all know what knowledge, skills, dedication, focus, perserverance it takes to pass the CCIE. When I see someone that tries to make themselves feel smarter or downplay the importance/accomplishment of being a CCIE, because of 1 CCIE who did not at that particular moment know something rather trivial, I just laugh. There are no paper CCIEs and there will be none. As long as the integrity of the test remains the way it is. ""2bie"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > It's not a fault of CCIE program .It's his mistake ;-) > But, Did he receive his number ? Yes ? OK, surely he have a deep knowledge > about OSPF, BPG, Redistribute, TCP/IP (except port 80), VoIP, Switching > . I think it's enough, and I respect him. > > > > > > - Original Message ----- > From: "Ladrach, Daniel E." > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:57 AM > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > > > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not > to > > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did > > fairly well. > > > > Daniel Ladrach > > CCNA, CCNP > > WorldCom Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60533&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Did Billgate graduate from Harvard or any university ? I am not sure if he know what CCIE mean, ah ha !!! We have over 6.000.000.000 people around. Each of them has his/her own position. Just thinking about emotion ! If passing CCIE make your feeling, go for it. If you dislike it, enjoy your PhD and do your research But my friend dislike both, he just want to be a big boss who can hire CCIEs and PhDs. Finally, If you want to be an expert in debating. This topic is a perfect pratice, go on ;-)) - Original Message - From: "nrf" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:57 AM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > ""Cisco Nuts"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Very well said!! > > > > As I ALWAYS tell my students: > > > > You can go to any school (including Harvard) and you can be assured that > > you WILL pass the exams with a A, B, C or a D grade if you study the > > material. > > > > The CCIE Lab - NO way man!! You can study and study and study ALL the > > materials and you will either pass or FAIL!!! It's a one shot!! > > > > NO way around this. NO grades here. > > > > So which one is more difficult?? Take a guess!! > > Uh, how's that? > > Consider this. You fail the lab, you take it again. You fail again? You > take it again.You can just keep taking it over and over again without > penalty. A Harvard degree takes 4 years. I am pretty confident that > anybody with half a brain who is willing to take the lab over and over again > for 4 years will pass. You might retort that taking the lab over and over > again costs a lot of money. Yeah, and Harvard doesn't? Again, take the > money that you would have to pay for tuition and just use that for taking > the lab over and over again. > > The hardest part about graduating from Harvard is not passing the classes - > it's getting admitted in the first place. If you apply and are not > admitted, you gotta wait for a whole another year to apply again. Clearly > most high school seniors aren't going to do that - so for them, it's truly a > one-shot deal. > > So, explain to me again how the lab is harder? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60534&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >snip> > BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think > it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor > the degree is the ultimate answer. > OK. I'll provide the straight line. What IS the ultimate answer? You know, to Life? The Universe? And Everything?!? ;-> Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60535&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
""The Long and Winding Road"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > ""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > >snip> > > > > BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think > > it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor > > the degree is the ultimate answer. > > > > OK. I'll provide the straight line. > > What IS the ultimate answer? You know, to Life? The Universe? And > Everything?!? ;-> Forty-Two. But what was the question again? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60536&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
- Original Message - From: "nrf" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:28 PM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > ""The Long and Winding Road"" wrote in > message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > ""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > >snip> > > > > > > > BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think > > > it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor > > > the degree is the ultimate answer. If you have a BS degree, CCIE will add more benefits than MS for you. > > OK. I'll provide the straight line. > > > > What IS the ultimate answer? You know, to Life? The Universe? And > > Everything?!? ;-> > > Forty-Two. But what was the question again? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60541&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
A> > > BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think > > > > it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor > > > > the degree is the ultimate answer. > >If you have a BS degree, CCIE will add more benefits than MS for you. Sure, if you want to plug routers in for a living. > > > OK. I'll provide the straight line. > > > > > > What IS the ultimate answer? You know, to Life? The Universe? And > > > Everything?!? ;-> > > > > Forty-Two. But what was the question again? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60547&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 11:34 PM + 1/7/03, Xia Hongbing wrote: >- Original Message - >From: "nrf" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:28 PM >Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > >> ""The Long and Winding Road"" wrote in >> message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> > ""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> > >snip> >> > >> > >> > > BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think >> > > it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor >> > > the degree is the ultimate answer. > >If you have a BS degree, CCIE will add more benefits than MS for you. There is no single best answer. Again, it comes back to what you want to do. CCIE may indeed be more helpful in enterprise network support, resellers, etc. That's not meant to be a criticism. Let's put it this way...when I had my house remodeled, I had far more respect for the general contractor than the architect. The first was by far the more creative person. Yet, on many occasions, I've gone into a large network situation, where things were floundering even though there were CCIEs in support, and cleaned up the situation by backing off, looking at requirements, challenging assumptions, cleaning up topology, etc. I well remember a case where moving one extra OSPF router into area 0.0.0.0 did away with the need for over 100 static routes they were using with a different set of assumptions on core design. And troubleshooting is great fun for certain personality types -- for data on this in a programming context, see Weinberg's _The Psychology of Computer Programming_. A CCIE, as currently constituted, does not cover the quantitative skills needed to do capacity design for a large network. It also doesn't cover the global routing skills for a large service provider. Network product developers tend to look for a MS in CS when hiring new people, but it's not an absolute. If you were going for a job in a research center and didn't have a publication and track record, a PhD would help, but, again, there are top-level researchers that are dropouts. If you want to move into general management, or possibly network sales, an MBA may be more useful. If you are in presales, a CCDP could help for smaller networks. Earlier, someone was concerned about a CCIE that didn't know the significance of port 80. Yeah, that's questionable perhaps -- but if he knew that there was a standard HTTP port and it ran over TCP, I wouldn't be that worried. I have greater respect for physicians that aren't afraid to pull out a reference book to check a drug they don't prescribe every day. OTOH, if you are doing advanced cardiac support, you'd better know the difference between 1:1000 and 1:1 epinephrine. CCIE does emphasize rote memory, which isn't necessarily an ideal thing in a constantly changing technology. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60549&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
VERY HARD to believe that , maybe his father runs the testing centre :) -Original Message- From: Ladrach, Daniel E. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not to long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did fairly well. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom NOTICE - This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying, disclosure or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by person or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete this message. This message should not be copied or used for any purpose other than intended, nor should it be disclosed to any other person. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the view of Investec Group, its subsidiaries or associates. The Investec Group is not liable for the security of information sent by e-mail at your request, nor for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in the communication nor for any delay in its receipt. Please note that the recipient must scan this e-mail and any attached files for viruses and the like. The Investec Group accepts no liability of whatever nature for any loss, liability, damage or expense resulting directly or indirectly from the access of any files which are attached to this message. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60584&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
I thing now everybody got the message that B.S or M.S is superior than CCIE so just shut your mouths on this topic and concentrate on many more issue.We have lot many to discuss. Piyush --- Peri Sophos wrote: > VERY HARD to believe that , maybe his father runs > the testing centre :) > > -Original Message- > From: Ladrach, Daniel E. > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:57 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with > a CCIE candidate not > to > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, > he took the lab and > did > fairly well. > > Daniel Ladrach > CCNA, CCNP > WorldCom > NOTICE - This message contains privileged and > confidential information > intended only for the use of the addressee named > above. > Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying, > disclosure or other use > of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this > information by person or > entities other than the intended recipient is > prohibited. > If you have received this message in error, please > notify the sender by > return email and delete this message. This message > should not be copied or > used for any purpose other than intended, nor should > it be disclosed to any > other person. Any views expressed in this message > are those of the > individual sender, except where the sender > specifically states them to be > the view of Investec Group, its subsidiaries or > associates. > The Investec Group is not liable for the security of > information sent by > e-mail at your request, nor for the proper and > complete transmission of the > information contained in the communication nor for > any delay in its > receipt. Please note that the recipient must scan > this e-mail and any > attached files for viruses and the like. > The Investec Group accepts no liability of whatever > nature for any loss, > liability, damage or expense resulting directly or > indirectly from the > access of any files which are attached to this > message. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60588&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
At 9:43 AM + 1/8/03, Mr piyush shah wrote: >I thing now everybody got the message that B.S or M.S >is superior than CCIE so just shut your mouths on this >topic and concentrate on many more issue.We have lot >many to discuss. >Piyush Sir, I don't particularly like being told to shut my mouth, especially when I am contributing on many other topics. I have complied with the suggestion of prefixing comments in this area with OT, which you have not. But since you apparently have defined priorities for the list, please provide your list of acceptable topics, in priority order. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60596&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
> But on the other hand, there are indeed a significant number of CCIE's out > there to which I would never trust a production network. They're not > 'paper' because they did pass the lab, but they are basically "lab- CCIE's" > because lab-work is the only thing they know. The 'lab-CCIE' (or perhaps > the more pejorative term of 'lab-rat') is someone who has zero or minimal > experience in a production environment. And let's not beat around the > bush - a production network is totally different from a lab. > > One quick fix that I think Cisco should do for the program is something that > the CISSP program does now - mandate X years of verifiable experience before > you can attempt the lab. Or, if that seems too harsh, then perhaps Cisco > can institute another program that sits on top of the CCIE (call it the CCIM > or whatever) and have that program be not only hard, but also use verifiable > experience as a pre-req. This is not a personal attack on nrf, I do agree with him that there are many "holes" in the test the do undermine it's authority as the domineering certification exam. However, I think we might be doing more harm than good. There are too many "router caressers" out there who would fulfill one qualification to take the exam yet totally fail due to their lack of speed, problem solving, and cognitive capabilities. Yet the qualified individuals with the skills I mentioned would be eliminated because they did not caress routers for a few years. Besides, how can the manager, who typically has far less technical prowess be able to verify his employee has done his job to the finest of his ability. Too many times I have heard someone say "well, the way we did it in company XYZ is this way because that's the way we have been doing it for years." (even if it's dead wrong, inefficient, and what not.) I would be more frightened of the guy sitting in maintenance of a production network for years and he never knew WHY things were the way they were. The manager might think he was doing a great job in "keeping the network up" because the employee never setup anything. In fact, typically in a production network you are greatly discouraged from setting up anything intrusive in anyway. (oh no, moving to OSPF from RIP, can't do that now better save that for 48 weekends!). Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Just, you can find people who have been doing aggressive setups with a fraction of the "years of experience" who can beat the crap out of anyone who has done the "years of router caressing" simply because they do not have to work on that "wait until the weekend" cut over time frame for every little change, instead they are working on quite a few turn ups for different clients every weekend and supporting them. I am trying to gear more towards agreement with Howard's earlier statements in reference to not being so worried about the person who did not port 80 == HTTP but rather that there is a protocol over TCP etc etc. Knowing the raw fundamentals down cold is a big plus and filtering out qualified individuals because they were not allowed to "router caress" for three years seems a bit unfounded. When people say "I know the theory about XYZ" the common belief is that they do not know it that well. My take on it is reversed, IF you know something, you can explain it cold, and IF you can explain the theory of something, you can teach it and explain it. So most people who say "Yeah I got the theory about FTP..." NO, quit fooling yourself, you do not know it. The CISSP's "restriction" has done little to stop their own flood of "paper" CISSPs. In fact, the same story goes there, people have seen quite a few CISSPs who know very little about real world security. Ironically, they should be applying their knowledge to real world products but they typically fail since the kind of mentality of a person going for these certs is usually for the "least amount of work for the most amount of money." People still think the CCIE is a very difficult exam in it's current form. Both tests have "cheaters" who sneak through. Maybe we should stop trying to fix the exam and increase awareness of what the exam "guarantees" in terms of deliverables. Perhaps it is just time for people to reevaluate their needs and their requirements for new employees rather than trying to fixup the one "Examination" to rule them all. Sorry Sauron. (this was not directly to you, nrf, just ... a little humor if you could catch the allusion.) -Carroll Kong Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60656&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
He did fairly well? Doesn't sound like he got his number? How does he know he did fairly well? I find that hard to believe.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of 2bie Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] It's not a fault of CCIE program .It's his mistake ;-) But, Did he receive his number ? Yes ? OK, surely he have a deep knowledge about OSPF, BPG, Redistribute, TCP/IP (except port 80), VoIP, Switching . I think it's enough, and I respect him. - Original Message - From: "Ladrach, Daniel E." To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:57 AM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not to > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did > fairly well. > > Daniel Ladrach > CCNA, CCNP > WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60794&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
You miss the point. A CCIE is an education. I MAJOR EDUCATION of monumental proportions!!! You cant fudge your way through it. It separates the men from the boys. The woman from the girls. Plain and simple. Also, just for the record, I think some people have the assumption that being a CCNP is close to a CCIE. I don't think they are anywhere in the same ballpark. BTW, I am only a CCNP, CIPT. Working on my CCIE, and I can tell you I have the utmost respect for ANYONE who has passed the lab BMS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Ladrach, Daniel E. Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] I do respect every CCIE out there. I have friends working on their CCIE's and I see the hard work they are putting in. I know this is not an easy certification to achieve. I also think every CCIE should be proud of their accomplishments. In my opinion an MBA opens more doors. I have never argued which one is better or which is harder; however, a certification should never be used in place of an education. I do believe the best candidate is probably going to have both. Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60795&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
Get over it!! If you like Cisco enough then do it!!! If you like networking enough then do it! If you are after the quickest and best solution for money, then leave!!! People here are to pose and solve problems, plain and simple! - Original Message - From: "brett spunt" To: Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:25 AM Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > You miss the point. A CCIE is an education. I MAJOR EDUCATION of > monumental proportions!!! > > You cant fudge your way through it. It separates the men from the boys. > The woman from the girls. Plain and simple. Also, just for the record, I > think some people have the assumption that being a CCNP is close to a > CCIE. I don't think they are anywhere in the same ballpark. > BTW, I am only a CCNP, CIPT. Working on my CCIE, and I can tell you I > have the utmost respect for ANYONE who has passed the lab > > BMS > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of > Ladrach, Daniel E. > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > > I do respect every CCIE out there. I have friends working on their > CCIE's > and I see the hard work they are putting in. I know this is not an easy > certification to achieve. I also think every CCIE should be proud of > their > accomplishments. In my opinion an MBA opens more doors. I have never > argued > which one is better or which is harder; however, a certification should > never be used in place of an education. I do believe the best candidate > is > probably going to have both. > > > Daniel Ladrach > CCNA, CCNP > WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60816&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
EEK - Original Message - From: "Ladrach, Daniel E." To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:57 PM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] > I just want to make one more comment. I worked with a CCIE candidate not to > long ago that did not know what port 80 was. Also, he took the lab and did > fairly well. > > Daniel Ladrach > CCNA, CCNP > WorldCom Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 12/30/2002 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60520&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]
I am surprised that I was misunderstood I had not meant to distinguish between a Graduate degree to a CCIE nor Harvard to the "Lab Rats Nest".What I was trying to focus was the point that compared to taking exams in College to taking the CCIE Lab exam, the latter was more difficult because either you Fail or you Pass...no concept of grades here. And definitely, as someone pointed out just getting admitted to a graduate school is more difficult than deciding one fine morning to start studying for the CCIE Lab. In that respect, a lot of CCIE Lab candidates would fail. And given a choice, how many of us would prefer a CCIE or entrance to Harvard!! Here is my new "mantra".CCIE or a Graduate Degree.Get BOTH!! >From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" >Reply-To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: OT: CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481] >Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:56:22 GMT > >"Cisco Nuts" wrote, > > >Very well said!! > > > >As I ALWAYS tell my students: > > > >You can go to any school (including Harvard) and you can be assured that > >you WILL pass the exams with a A, B, C or a D grade if you study the > >material. > >At the undergraduate level. The graduate level requires you >demonstrate the ability to do innovative research. The CCIE, in its >stated philosophy of not corresponding to best common practice, in >the possibility that you lose points for including useful commands, >and the logistics of its scoring push toward a particular school >solution. > > > > >The CCIE Lab - NO way man!! You can study and study and study ALL the > >materials and you will either pass or FAIL!!! It's a one shot!! > > > >NO way around this. NO grades here. > > > >So which one is more difficult?? Take a guess!! > >Big difference between BS and MS/PhD. BS, I might agree could be >easier than CCIE. Still, they teach and evaluate different skill >sets. > >I'm not sure I'm articulating this well, but there's an underlying >analogy that says that a Super Bowl ring shows you've passed exams >more difficult than CCIE. Now, if you had an elite CCIE that required >you to configure while staying in the pocket and relying on your >blockers... > >But elite NFL coaches may not have been distinguished players -- the >majority were not. A CCIE certainly can configure and troubleshoot a >router---but can he or she design one that has competitive >functionality? Don't get me wrong -- I know some very good >physicians whose hands I'd put my life into -- even though I know >their knowledge of the underlying physiology may not be very great. >Instinct and dexterity ARE requirements for surgeons. > >BTW, I do consider this a fundamentally silly discussion, but I think >it's somewhat relevant for newbies to know that neither the cert nor >the misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60603&t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OSS/NM (was CCIE Vs. BS or MS degree [7:59481]) [7:60215]
NRF makes a very good point below about OSS systems. Pulling this off from the original thread to take the discussion in a differnent direction. As we probably all would agree, the largest cost in running a network is not the engineering cost or the capital costs, but rather the cost of operating the network (NOC, call center, tier 1-(N-1) support, etc.) In the world I live in, the engineering group, when introducing new gear, design, service, or architecture, is reponsible to also provide the OIDs to monitor, how often to poll, what each OID means, what are key thresholds, and what it means (or one should do) when an OID value passes one of these thresholds. The NM folks than update their tools (OSSs) and processes based on this information. The engineering involved in this portion of the design can either make or break the cost effectiveness of a design. So two points: 1) It would seem that any CCIE-type training/testing should include NM information into the material to be learned. From what I can tell, it does not. I'm not suggesting that one would need to memorize every OID in every MIB, but it would seem important to know key OIDs in each functional area and what useful information they provide. 2) For the folks on this list that write books in this space, it would seem very appropriate if NM topics where covered as well. Take a book which talks about the many different routing protocols. All of them explain how the protocol operates, the format of messages, and and how to configure and debug a router running the protocol. There's only so many ways one can explain OSPF type 1-4,5 and 7 LSAs and stub/TSA/NSSAs. One way to differentiate the contents of a book would be to include key OIDs one should consider putting in their NM systems to make sure OSPF/IS-IS/BGP/etc. is operating as expected (or not). My $0.02. nrf wrote: > > Yet at the same time we have the opposite phenomena - guys who can configure > routers in a Sunday minute, but can't even spell RFC. What I'm talking > about is guys who might know what all the commands are, but have no > grounding in routing protocol theory or any such higher concepts. All they > know is - they see this problem, they type in this command. Such guys are > useful if you need to troubleshoot your network at 3 in the morning, not so > useful if you want to do something that isn't in a textbook. And besides, I > hate to say it, but these guys are destined to be replaced by a good OSS. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=60215&t=60215 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
