subject:"Re\: \[darktable\-user\] Still no GUI module order possible\?"

The bottom up order makes sense since in a larger list of modules the modules 
for the color and tonal correction are usually in the upper visible part of the 
screen; the mandatory modules usually not needing tweaks or to be modified just 
once at the beginning of editing are in the invisible lower part...

> Am 15.02.2021 um 22:26 schrieb KOVÁCS István :
> 
> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz  wrote:
>> @kneops
>> My two cents:
>> Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. [...]
>> The developers choosed "from bottom to top"
> 
> I think it may be reasonable to add an option to flip the visual order
> (so not completely free reordering, just a boolean top-to-bottom
> ('page-order') or bottom-up ('stack-like') display choice). My
> reasoning is that in Western writing systems, we read and write from
> top to bottom. I understand that the pipeline is also called a
> 'stack', and the 'last' element on the stack means 'the most recently
> pushed one', and it's at the top. But, I guess, for many users, a
> presentation where the last element of the history is at the bottom;
> where one of the the first modules to apply (such as exposure) appears
> near the top of the page, not near the bottom; where the pipeline, in
> execution order, is displayed top-to-bottom, is a very logical
> expectation.
> 
> Kofa
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread David Vincent-Jones


Currently, it works just fine. More complication we do not need.

On 2021-02-15 5:26 p.m., William Ferguson wrote:

There is another side to this discussion that's not been considered.  The
devs don't just build features.  They also provide documentation, tech
support, education, videos, and bug fixing.

Let's say they implement a feature so the user can configure the GUI with
any module order they would like, and it doesn't affect the pixel pipe. And
we still have the pixelpipe that we can reorder.  Then a user processes an
image and it doesn't turn out the way they think it should have.  On this
list, as well as github, almost all of the conversations take place in
English.  However English isn't the first language of a lot of the devs as
well as a lot of the users.  So can you imagine the conversation when the
user is trying to relate what order they did things in and the dev is
trying to overcome the language barrier, figure out which module order the
user is talking about, figure out what order the pixelpipe was in, and
figure out what happened?  And what happens when the dev asks the user to
try a different order and the dev was talking about the pixelpipe and the
user adjusts the GUI order.

There is also the possibility of confusion on the part of the user when
they reorder the pixelpipe thinking they were reordering the GUI.

Sometimes features aren't implemented because the devs can't figure out how
to support them, not because they can't implement them.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 7:52 PM Ricardo Kozmate.Net 
wrote:


DT is a really fine app.

It would be even better, in my opinion, if it allowed users to use it in
a way that feels comfortable to each user. Allowing to sort the modules
*on the GUI* feels like a reasonable request. I would like to.

Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not the point, I
presume.
Compare it to GIMP allowing to order the tools in the toolbox, as it does.


Want to do it? Great!

Do not want to do it? Fine, too.

Devs may, and *should*, do whatever they think best. But pushing away
suggestions with arrogant remarks will, in the long run, result in a
poorer DT. For everybody.

Users might have good and original ideas too, you know? If devs kill the
will to help, they'll lose. We all lose.


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org



darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Please keep the answers to the list. And I hope I was not the intended
recipient of the message as I'm not a developer and certainly I'm not
aggressive at all.

Best regards,
Guillermo

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 22:26 Terry Pinfold  wrote:

> Yes some, not all, of the developers can be a bit aggressive in their
> responses. I nearly walked away from this forum for that reason. I really
> appreciate the effort they put in, but end users who may not understand the
> program nuances may have good ideas that they have picked up from other
> programs and experiences.
>


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread William Ferguson

There is another side to this discussion that's not been considered.  The
devs don't just build features.  They also provide documentation, tech
support, education, videos, and bug fixing.

Let's say they implement a feature so the user can configure the GUI with
any module order they would like, and it doesn't affect the pixel pipe. And
we still have the pixelpipe that we can reorder.  Then a user processes an
image and it doesn't turn out the way they think it should have.  On this
list, as well as github, almost all of the conversations take place in
English.  However English isn't the first language of a lot of the devs as
well as a lot of the users.  So can you imagine the conversation when the
user is trying to relate what order they did things in and the dev is
trying to overcome the language barrier, figure out which module order the
user is talking about, figure out what order the pixelpipe was in, and
figure out what happened?  And what happens when the dev asks the user to
try a different order and the dev was talking about the pixelpipe and the
user adjusts the GUI order.

There is also the possibility of confusion on the part of the user when
they reorder the pixelpipe thinking they were reordering the GUI.

Sometimes features aren't implemented because the devs can't figure out how
to support them, not because they can't implement them.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 7:52 PM Ricardo Kozmate.Net 
wrote:

> DT is a really fine app.
>
> It would be even better, in my opinion, if it allowed users to use it in
> a way that feels comfortable to each user. Allowing to sort the modules
> *on the GUI* feels like a reasonable request. I would like to.
>
> Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not the point, I
> presume.
> Compare it to GIMP allowing to order the tools in the toolbox, as it does.
>
>
> Want to do it? Great!
>
> Do not want to do it? Fine, too.
>
> Devs may, and *should*, do whatever they think best. But pushing away
> suggestions with arrogant remarks will, in the long run, result in a
> poorer DT. For everybody.
>
> Users might have good and original ideas too, you know? If devs kill the
> will to help, they'll lose. We all lose.
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 21:52 Ricardo Kozmate.Net  wrote:

> Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not the point, I
> presume.
> Compare it to GIMP allowing to order the tools in the toolbox, as it does.
>

No. Gimp's toolbox is not comparable because each tool there is independent
of the others, and they're applied in the same order they're activated. In
darktable they are not: the order of application is defined independently
of the order in which they're activated, and the output of one module is
the input of the next (so application order is very important).

Comparing it to Gimp's layers is not silly, they work the same way: there
is an intrinsic order in which things are applied, and that order is
represented by the order of the GUI. You can think that each of darktable's
activated modules is a layer with a certain effect applied (in order) on
top of the base image.

Users might have good and original ideas too, you know? If devs kill the
> will to help, they'll lose. We all lose.
>

That is what feature requests are for:
https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues

This list can be a good first step to explore an idea, but the best way to
discuss all the details, corner cases, coding and maintenance requirements
for a proposed change is in the repository with the people that develop
darktable.

However, there were several reasons given here about why it might not be a
good idea to allow GUI order and pipe order to be different. Insisting on
"give users the choice" without addressing those issues is not productive,
so expect a quick "won't fix" answer if that is the level of argumentation
for the change.

Best regards,
Guillermo

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Ricardo Kozmate.Net


DT is a really fine app.

It would be even better, in my opinion, if it allowed users to use it in 
a way that feels comfortable to each user. Allowing to sort the modules 
*on the GUI* feels like a reasonable request. I would like to.


Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not the point, I 
presume.

Compare it to GIMP allowing to order the tools in the toolbox, as it does.


Want to do it? Great!

Do not want to do it? Fine, too.

Devs may, and *should*, do whatever they think best. But pushing away 
suggestions with arrogant remarks will, in the long run, result in a 
poorer DT. For everybody.


Users might have good and original ideas too, you know? If devs kill the 
will to help, they'll lose. We all lose.


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

When the darktable developers call the pixel pipeline a "stack" that is an 
arbitrary term they have chosen. It is a techie term, for sure. But applying 
modules in the pipeline would be better described as a sequential series of 
processing steps. There is no implied "direction" other than forward. Now 
debating whether "stack" is a techie term is fruitless here, because it is 
beside the point. So I am not going to address it further.



I have not been asking for this GUI feature. So, to say I'm insisting the 
developers to do something I want, but they do not think appropriate, is 
erroneous. I only entered this discussion because I kept hearing people respond 
to the request by saying, essentially "We just cannot re-order the modules in 
the GUI because the modules HAVE to be processed in the correct order!" That 
was the most prevalent response, even though it WAS NOT WHAT WAS BEING 
REQUESTED.



So, I asked that a good reason be given why, in the favorites tab, the module 
order could not be customized by the user. Not to change the order of 
processing of those modules, but to merely make it more comfortable for the 
user to see them in the order the user is used to editing. In the most recent 
few responses I got my answer. First, it would be confusing to users (even 
though the user would have to had manually set this up themselves). Second, it 
would make it harder to implement other features that are under consideration, 
such as multiple module instances. 



So, as I already indicated in this conversation, I have my answer.









 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:16:33 -0500 Patrick Shanahan  
wrote 



not "techie" but as expected.  a stack grows from botton to top. 
 
you are making definitions to but darktable in a different light.  it is 
what it is and you are perfectly able to program it into what you wish, 
but you must do so.  it appears you want others to make changes they do 
not think appropriate, necessary or worth effort to accomodate you. 
 
 
-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri 
http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri 
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigopaka @ IRCnet freenode 
 
darktable user mailing list 
to unsubscribe send a mail to 
mailto:darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* Patrick Shanahan  [02-15-21 18:19]:
> * DougC  [02-15-21 17:20]:
> > You are correct that most visual processes, especially writing, move from 
> > top to bottom. Having the stack grow from bottom to top is part of the 
> > "techie" nature of darktable. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:24:51 -0500 KOVÁCS István 
> >  wrote 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz  
> > wrote: 
> > > @kneops 
> > > My two cents: 
> > > Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. [...] 
> > > The developers choosed "from bottom to top" 
> >  
> > I think it may be reasonable to add an option to flip the visual order 
> > (so not completely free reordering, just a boolean top-to-bottom 
> > ('page-order') or bottom-up ('stack-like') display choice). My 
> > reasoning is that in Western writing systems, we read and write from 
> > top to bottom. I understand that the pipeline is also called a 
> > 'stack', and the 'last' element on the stack means 'the most recently 
> > pushed one', and it's at the top. But, I guess, for many users, a 
> > presentation where the last element of the history is at the bottom; 
> > where one of the the first modules to apply (such as exposure) appears 
> > near the top of the page, not near the bottom; where the pipeline, in 
> > execution order, is displayed top-to-bottom, is a very logical 
> > expectation. 
> >  
> > Kofa 
> > 
> >  
> > darktable user mailing list 
> > to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> > mailto:darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> > 
> > darktable user mailing list
> > to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> > 
> 
> not "techie" but as expected.  a stack grows from botton to top.
> 
> you are making definitions to but darktable in a different light.  it is
> what it is and you are perfectly able to program it into what you wish,
> but you must do so.  it appears you want others to make changes they do
> not think appropriate, necessary or worth effort to accomodate you.

s/but/put/


-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* DougC  [02-15-21 17:20]:
> You are correct that most visual processes, especially writing, move from top 
> to bottom. Having the stack grow from bottom to top is part of the "techie" 
> nature of darktable. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:24:51 -0500 KOVÁCS István 
>  wrote 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz  wrote: 
> > @kneops 
> > My two cents: 
> > Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. [...] 
> > The developers choosed "from bottom to top" 
>  
> I think it may be reasonable to add an option to flip the visual order 
> (so not completely free reordering, just a boolean top-to-bottom 
> ('page-order') or bottom-up ('stack-like') display choice). My 
> reasoning is that in Western writing systems, we read and write from 
> top to bottom. I understand that the pipeline is also called a 
> 'stack', and the 'last' element on the stack means 'the most recently 
> pushed one', and it's at the top. But, I guess, for many users, a 
> presentation where the last element of the history is at the bottom; 
> where one of the the first modules to apply (such as exposure) appears 
> near the top of the page, not near the bottom; where the pipeline, in 
> execution order, is displayed top-to-bottom, is a very logical 
> expectation. 
>  
> Kofa 
>  
> darktable user mailing list 
> to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> mailto:darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 

not "techie" but as expected.  a stack grows from botton to top.

you are making definitions to but darktable in a different light.  it is
what it is and you are perfectly able to program it into what you wish,
but you must do so.  it appears you want others to make changes they do
not think appropriate, necessary or worth effort to accomodate you.


-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

You are correct that most visual processes, especially writing, move from top 
to bottom. Having the stack grow from bottom to top is part of the "techie" 
nature of darktable. 

 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:24:51 -0500 KOVÁCS István  
wrote 

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz  wrote: 
> @kneops 
> My two cents: 
> Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. [...] 
> The developers choosed "from bottom to top" 

I think it may be reasonable to add an option to flip the visual order 
(so not completely free reordering, just a boolean top-to-bottom 
('page-order') or bottom-up ('stack-like') display choice). My 
reasoning is that in Western writing systems, we read and write from 
top to bottom. I understand that the pipeline is also called a 
'stack', and the 'last' element on the stack means 'the most recently 
pushed one', and it's at the top. But, I guess, for many users, a 
presentation where the last element of the history is at the bottom; 
where one of the the first modules to apply (such as exposure) appears 
near the top of the page, not near the bottom; where the pipeline, in 
execution order, is displayed top-to-bottom, is a very logical 
expectation. 

Kofa 

darktable user mailing list 
to unsubscribe send a mail to 
mailto:darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Terry Pinfold

I really love the way that Darktable is transparent about the order of the
pipeline being applied. You can choose to use modules in whichever order
you want , but Darktable then processes them in the logical order
determined by the developers with the aim of producing the best result.
However, there are times that the module order must be changed. For
instance, I am scanning a lot of film and have discovered that I can retain
the best highlight details in negatives by scanning as a positive and
getting an image that looks like the negative with the orange base and
inverted colours. I then go to Darktable and use the negadoctor module to
invert the image to the expected colours. However, I want to then use the
color calibration module to further improve the color. This must be
reordered in the pipeline to a point after negadoctor. Darktable gives me
this option.

When I consider programs like Lightroom. There seems a logical layout of
sliders to fix exposure, shadows, highlights, color, etc. But there is no
transparency about the order that they are applied in the pipeline and
there appears no option to change the pipeline. Being able to alter the
order of modules in the GUI of darktable would be a low priority for
Darktables developers and would be of limited benefit, but being able to
order the pipeline is a great advantage of darktable and this is what the
end user should be embracing. It is also possible to manage module layouts
and sort out which modules are shown in each group and to even create a
group of favourites. This might help some people feel more comfortable with
Darktable's GUI. I also use the search module function a lot when looking
for non-favorite modules that I may not have shown in my GUI.

Darktable is an amazing program and I am so appreciative of the great
effort by the developers. It is really worth the effort to learn. Watch
some of the videos, read the release notes and read the user manual when
trying to understand modules new to you. I don't believe Knoeps was trying
to be critical of the developers or even Darktable, but rather just trying
to share his experiences at using the program.

BTW, the negadoctor module is amazing and I have not seen anything like it
in other editing programs.

On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 00:23, Kneops  wrote:

> Ah okay, so that kind of ordering can be done anyway. I will experiment
> then.
>
>
>
>
> Op 15-02-2021 om 14:09 schreef Terry Pinfold:
> > Hi,
> >  it is very easy to order the pipeline. The developers have
> > determined the way they feel it works best for most workflows, but I
> > find that at times I want or need to reorder the pipeline. It is so
> > easy. Just use Ctrl + Shift to drop and drag the modules. For instance
> > when I use Filmic RGB I often want to do a final adjustment with the RGB
> > curves tool, so I just drag it above Filmic in the pipeline. I never
> > want to have RGB curves before filmic but that is where the developers
> > have placed it in their wisdom or oversight. But Darktable gives me the
> > chice to change it and this is a strength of Darktable that leaves other
> > programs for dead. However, understand that the developers have put
> > thought into the order to achieve usually the best results so reorder
> > the pipeline with caution. However it can be changed. Kudos to the
> > developers for not locking us into a fixed workflow and pipeline. And
> > yes they can be reordered before they have an effect on the pipeline.
> > All I can say to anyone is that Darktable is one incredible and fun
> > program to learn.
> >
> > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 21:44, Kneops  > > wrote:
> >
> > Trying DT again I notice that I cannot reorder the modules, except
> when
> > they also have an effect on the order in the pipeline.
> >
> > Intuitevely I work from top to bottom, exposure, white balance,
> > contrast, then cropping etc. and at the end things like sharpening
> and
> > vignetting. Now the modules have no logical order at all (except the
> > pipeline)
> >
>  
> > darktable user mailing list
> > to unsubscribe send a mail to
> > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
>

-- 
Dr Terry Pinfold
Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager
Lecturer in Flow Cytometry
University of Tasmania
17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000
Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread KOVÁCS István

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz  wrote:
> @kneops
> My two cents:
> Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. [...]
> The developers choosed "from bottom to top"

I think it may be reasonable to add an option to flip the visual order
(so not completely free reordering, just a boolean top-to-bottom
('page-order') or bottom-up ('stack-like') display choice). My
reasoning is that in Western writing systems, we read and write from
top to bottom. I understand that the pipeline is also called a
'stack', and the 'last' element on the stack means 'the most recently
pushed one', and it's at the top. But, I guess, for many users, a
presentation where the last element of the history is at the bottom;
where one of the the first modules to apply (such as exposure) appears
near the top of the page, not near the bottom; where the pipeline, in
execution order, is displayed top-to-bottom, is a very logical
expectation.

Kofa

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Urs Schütz

@kneops
My two cents:
Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. As soon as I started to work as 
intended, it made sense to me. Collecting my favorite modules in my own group 
helps to speed up my work.
As you already realized, the modules can be reordered. The pipeline changes 
accordingly. This gives great freedom to users, but can mess up the processing, 
unforeseen effects can happen.
The user interface to reorder the pipeline is the same as you would like to 
have for apparent reordering (I suppose you would like to work from to to 
bottom). So there you have it: How would one distinguish between reordered 
pipeline and reordered module names?
The developers choosed "from bottom to top" and choosed to let users reorder 
the pipeline, which in my opinion is a good decision. I needed some time to get 
used to it, but I see it as investment to apply this wonderful and highly 
versatile tool in my workflow.
Hope that darktable turns out the same for you.
Urs

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Archie Macintosh

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 18:30, Jean-Luc CECCOLI 
wrote:


> But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original
> modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab displays ?
> When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the
> main tab, and when he wants to work according to his taste, he uses his
> alias tab.
>
>
Well put, Jean-Luc!
This is exactly what the OP was asking for. NOT reordering the pipe, but
being able to order a set of aliases to match his routine work sequence.

If it could be done, I’m sure some (many?) people would find it very
convenient. Including me!


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

That’s simply not on the prioritization list of the developers: these are also 
users of darktable „eating their own dogfood“ so imaging functionality is more 
important for them then „wasting“ time for stuff that won’t improve their edits.
Keep in mind - it’s not just open source, it‘s also free to be forked if 
somebody will spent a lot of time to implement a different ui.


> Am 15.02.2021 um 19:31 schrieb Jean-Luc CECCOLI :
> 
> 
>> 
>> Message du 15/02/21 18:00
>> De : "DougC" 
>> A : "darktable-user" 
>> Copie à : 
>> Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?
>> 
>> That thread helps my understanding a lot! Thank you.
>> 
>> My conclusion is that allowing a manual sort order in a module tab in the 
>> GUI would make it difficult to implement other changes that are under 
>> consideration. To me, that is a good argument.
>> 
>> 
> Hello,
> 
> I do not know what extra work it would imply for the devs, nor if it would be 
> either useful or convenient, so please do not bash !
> Please, consider also that I am only a casual user, and I rely upon the devs' 
> decisions and choices, even if some do not match my tastes (or I do not 
> understand the reason why they chose to do so, nor the goal).
> But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original 
> modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab displays ?
> When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the main 
> tab, and when he wants to work according to his taste, he uses his alias tab.
> 
> Rgrds,
> 
> J.-Luc
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

>
> But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original
> modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab displays ?
> When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the
> main tab, and when he wants to work according to his taste, he uses his
> alias tab.
>

Check the link I posted (
https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/7841), it more or less
answers your question (related to the new 'basic module', which is
reminiscent of your 'alias tab').

The main points for me (not a developer, but happy to answer user
questions) are two:

- consistency: everything else is pipe-ordered. Having a single tab ordered
not in pipe order, while the rest is, means people get confused. People
confused means more work answering questions and wrongly filled bugs.
Notice that the proposal linked above has a small chance to go
through precisely because it's a separate 'module', which could be made
clearly different from the regular tabs to convey the idea that GUI sliders
order and pipe order are not related ONLY in that module.

- having all tabs not in pipe-order loses the 'physical'
(visual?) connection between module order and image result, which is worse.
As somebody said before, you don't expect a layer-based software (like Gimp
or Photoshop) to allow you to re-order the layers independently of how they
will be merged (usually top to bottom). This is the same situation:
pipe-order is central to how darktable works, operations are applied in a
defined order, and the GUI order reflecting pipe-order is a manifestation
of that (now more than ever because pipe-order can be changed).

Best regards,
Guillermo


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Chas G

I am wary of asking the devs to add another layer of complexity to the
interface. Every method of allowing users to customize their interface
adds: complexity, new points of failure, another aspect new users will have
to learn, and more features that fewer people will care for.

I hope the devs continue to do as they have: add underlying functions and
utility and keep it reasonably simple. I believe they have done a
remarkable job, and that their results are proof that their intuitions are
very good.

I hope they do not add layers of UI complexity.

I should add that I am a long time but relatively unsophisticated darktable
user. Perhaps I am wrong in my vision here. I would welcome any correction
about my opinion from devs or more sophisticated users who know the
interface programming that underlies the UI of darktable.

But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the
original modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab
displays ?
When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the
main tab, and when he wants to work according to his taste, he uses his
alias tab.>


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Jean-Luc CECCOLI

> Message du 15/02/21 18:00
> De : "DougC" 
> A : "darktable-user" 
> Copie à : 
> Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?
> 
> That thread helps my understanding a lot! Thank you.
>
> My conclusion is that allowing a manual sort order in a module tab in the GUI 
> would make it difficult to implement other changes that are under 
> consideration. To me, that is a good argument.
>
>
Hello,

I do not know what extra work it would imply for the devs, nor if it would be 
either useful or convenient, so please do not bash !
Please, consider also that I am only a casual user, and I rely upon the devs' 
decisions and choices, even if some do not match my tastes (or I do not 
understand the reason why they chose to do so, nor the goal).
But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original 
modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab displays ?
When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the main 
tab, and when he wants to work according to his taste, he uses his alias tab.

Rgrds,

J.-Luc

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

That thread helps my understanding a lot! Thank you.



My conclusion is that allowing a manual sort order in a module tab in the GUI 
would make it difficult to implement other changes that are under 
consideration. To me, that is a good argument.





 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:34:53 -0500 Guillermo Rozas  
wrote 


On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 1:01 PM DougC  wrote:

This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it?




 

You may want to read this, which touches the subject on a (much) smaller case: 
https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/7841

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 1:01 PM DougC  wrote:

> This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it?
>

You may want to read this, which touches the subject on a (much) smaller
case: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/7841


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

The best argument against is the absence of a fork having this and being used 
by more users than plain old darktable ;)


> Am 15.02.2021 um 17:02 schrieb DougC :
> 
> 
> This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it?
> 
> 
> 
>  On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:56:41 -0500 Michael Staats 
>  wrote 
> 
> My 2 cents: I think most people do not want to mess with the internal 
> pipeline, they just expect that the right thing happens when they switch 
> on a module or change a setting. 
> 
> But it can simply be a matter of taste if you first crop&rotate, or set 
> the white balance. And why not allow to re-order the modules in the 
> favorite list to taste (without changing the pipeline), so that in one's 
> standard workflow you would simply start at the top, and when you are at 
> the bottom, you are done? 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for it, I personally do not have such 
> a standard workflow. I look at my picture, and if I want to change 
> something, I pick the module I need, and so on, until I'm happy. In the 
> next picture, it might be a complete different order. 
> 
> But I understand if others, especially if handling many pictures, want 
> to have their personal order. Or maybe that helps establishing a common 
> workflow for a group of users, like when teaching whoever (pupils, 
> employees), or whatever use case you may think of... 
> 
> Best regards, 
> Michael 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Even for the favorite list (it’s just a user defined collection of modules) 
it’s useful to know what you’re doing: changing the parameters of a lower 
module affects the upper, especially when using parametric masks.
So there’s really no benefit in having a list of stuff where transparency of 
the process chain is lost... having to switch between module lists just to see 
the „real“ order is quite more annoying then learning it once.

> Am 15.02.2021 um 16:57 schrieb Michael Staats :
> 
> On 15/02/2021 15:54, Kneops wrote:
>> That is a very good example! :)
>> 
>> 1.
>> 
>> Pixelpipeline/module order/background operations in DT:
>> First the socks, then the shoes.
>> 
>> 2.
>> 
>> Me:
>> First I choose which shoes to wear today, than I go look for soms socks
>> that fit with the shoes, if I can find them.
>> 
>> So I do not want to mess up the very logical order of first socks, then
>> shoes. But choosing which socks and which shoes could have a different
>> order. ;)
> 
> Hi
> My 2 cents: I think most people do not want to mess with the internal
> pipeline, they just expect that the right thing happens when they switch
> on a module or change a setting.
> 
> But it can simply be a matter of taste if you first crop&rotate, or set
> the white balance. And why not allow to re-order the modules in the
> favorite list to taste (without changing the pipeline), so that in one's
> standard workflow you would simply start at the top, and when you are at
> the bottom, you are done?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for it, I personally do not have such
> a standard workflow. I look at my picture, and if I want to change
> something, I pick the module I need, and so on, until I'm happy. In the
> next picture, it might be a complete different order.
> 
> But I understand if others, especially if handling many pictures, want
> to have their personal order. Or maybe that helps establishing a common
> workflow for a group of users, like when teaching whoever (pupils,
> employees), or whatever use case you may think of...
> 
> Best regards,
>Michael
> --
> Michael Staats
> michael.sta...@gmx.de
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it?





 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:56:41 -0500 Michael Staats  
wrote 


My 2 cents: I think most people do not want to mess with the internal 
pipeline, they just expect that the right thing happens when they switch 
on a module or change a setting. 
 
But it can simply be a matter of taste if you first crop&rotate, or set 
the white balance. And why not allow to re-order the modules in the 
favorite list to taste (without changing the pipeline), so that in one's 
standard workflow you would simply start at the top, and when you are at 
the bottom, you are done? 
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for it, I personally do not have such 
a standard workflow. I look at my picture, and if I want to change 
something, I pick the module I need, and so on, until I'm happy. In the 
next picture, it might be a complete different order. 
 
But I understand if others, especially if handling many pictures, want 
to have their personal order. Or maybe that helps establishing a common 
workflow for a group of users, like when teaching whoever (pupils, 
employees), or whatever use case you may think of... 
 
Best regards, 
Michael

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Michael Staats

On 15/02/2021 15:54, Kneops wrote:
> That is a very good example! :)
>
> 1.
>
> Pixelpipeline/module order/background operations in DT:
> First the socks, then the shoes.
>
> 2.
>
> Me:
> First I choose which shoes to wear today, than I go look for soms socks
> that fit with the shoes, if I can find them.
>
> So I do not want to mess up the very logical order of first socks, then
> shoes. But choosing which socks and which shoes could have a different
> order. ;)

Hi
My 2 cents: I think most people do not want to mess with the internal
pipeline, they just expect that the right thing happens when they switch
on a module or change a setting.

But it can simply be a matter of taste if you first crop&rotate, or set
the white balance. And why not allow to re-order the modules in the
favorite list to taste (without changing the pipeline), so that in one's
standard workflow you would simply start at the top, and when you are at
the bottom, you are done?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for it, I personally do not have such
a standard workflow. I look at my picture, and if I want to change
something, I pick the module I need, and so on, until I'm happy. In the
next picture, it might be a complete different order.

But I understand if others, especially if handling many pictures, want
to have their personal order. Or maybe that helps establishing a common
workflow for a group of users, like when teaching whoever (pupils,
employees), or whatever use case you may think of...

Best regards,
Michael
--
Michael Staats
michael.sta...@gmx.de

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?


That is a very good example! :)

1.

Pixelpipeline/module order/background operations in DT:
First the socks, then the shoes.

2.

Me:
First I choose which shoes to wear today, than I go look for soms socks 
that fit with the shoes, if I can find them.


So I do not want to mess up the very logical order of first socks, then 
shoes. But choosing which socks and which shoes could have a different 
order. ;)




Op 15-02-2021 om 14:58 schreef Anton Aylward:
When you 'put you shoes and socks on' like your mother told you to do, 
do you put your shoes on first then your sock over them?


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Willy Williams


Thank you, Patrick.  It helps to know where to look.  (RTFM, Willy!)

Willy

--

 "You don't take a picture.  You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."

 - Unknown

--

On 2/15/21 9:28 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Willy Williams  [02-15-21 09:25]:

I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines the
reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that are not
developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking that went
into the design of the pipe?

Willy Williams

--

  "You don't take a picture.  You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."

  - Unknown

--

On 2/15/21 7:52 AM, Pascal Obry wrote:

Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit :

Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with
other tools,

Then use another tool.


   it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open
an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that
first.
Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then
perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of
modules should have nothing to do with the pipeline.

Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they
are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in
different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying
that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on
the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to
understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working
then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because
it cannot be changed.


This makes me feel again that DT is mostly for techies.

No, but people who understand what they do.




darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


perhaps the fine documentation,
   
https://darktable-org.github.io/dtdocs/darkroom/pixelpipe/the-pixelpipe-and-module-order/
   



darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Simon Wren

Well as a complete newbie to dt who hasn't got much beyond importing images, I think it's ridiculous and outrageous that the developers refuse to please all of the people all of the time :-)

On 15/02/2021 14:28 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Willy Williams [02-15-21 09:25]:

I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines the

reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that are not

developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking that went

into the design of the pipe?

Willy Williams

"You don't take a picture. You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."

- Unknown

On 2/15/21 7:52 AM, Pascal Obry wrote:

Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit :

Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with

other tools,

Then use another tool.

it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open

an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that

first.

Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then

perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of

modules should have nothing to do with the pipeline.

Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they

are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in

different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying

that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on

the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to

understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working

then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because

it cannot be changed.

This makes me feel again that DT is mostly for techies.

No, but people who understand what they do.

darktable user mailing list

to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

perhaps the fine documentation,

https://darktable-org.github.io/dtdocs/darkroom/pixelpipe/the-pixelpipe-and-module-order/

(paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri

http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri

Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

darktable user mailing list

to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Andreas Herold

I’m not a developer and in my opinion it is very easy to understand the concept 
of pipeline. The „design of the pipeline“ (which I interpret as order of 
modules) is determined by yourself (move up, move down, new instance) and by 
some border conditions. These conditions can be seen as popup, when the mouse 
pointer is on the name of a module (types of input and output have to match).

> Am 15.02.2021 um 15:23 schrieb Willy Williams :
> 
> I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines the 
> reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that are not 
> developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking that went into 
> the design of the pipe?  
> 
> Willy Williams
> 
> -- 
> 
>  "You don't take a picture.  You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."
> 
>  - Unknown
> 
> --
> On 2/15/21 7:52 AM, Pascal Obry wrote:
>> Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit :
>>> Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with 
>>> other tools,
>> Then use another tool.
>> 
>>>  it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open 
>>> an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that
>>> first. 
>>> Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then 
>>> perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of
>>> modules should have nothing to do with the pipeline. 
>> Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they
>> are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in
>> different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying
>> that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on
>> the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to
>> understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working
>> then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because
>> it cannot be changed.
>> 
>>> This makes me feel again that DT is mostly for techies.
>> No, but people who understand what they do.
>> 
>> 
> 
>  
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 



darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* Willy Williams  [02-15-21 09:25]:
> I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines the
> reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that are not
> developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking that went
> into the design of the pipe?
> 
> Willy Williams
> 
> -- 
> 
>  "You don't take a picture.  You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."
> 
>  - Unknown
> 
> --
> 
> On 2/15/21 7:52 AM, Pascal Obry wrote:
> > Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit :
> > > Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with
> > > other tools,
> > Then use another tool.
> > 
> > >   it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open
> > > an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that
> > > first.
> > > Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then
> > > perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of
> > > modules should have nothing to do with the pipeline.
> > Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they
> > are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in
> > different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying
> > that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on
> > the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to
> > understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working
> > then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because
> > it cannot be changed.
> > 
> > > This makes me feel again that DT is mostly for techies.
> > No, but people who understand what they do.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


perhaps the fine documentation,
  
https://darktable-org.github.io/dtdocs/darkroom/pixelpipe/the-pixelpipe-and-module-order/
  
-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

And no one wants to take that away from you! The request was to allow a user to 
add a custom tab where the order of the modules is different. The request does 
NOT change the default view, nor the order of pipeline processing at all!





 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:18:13 -0500 Andreas Herold  
wrote 


I want to say, that I could not use DT any longer, if I’m not able to see the 
pipeline order in the GUI. For me the visible order of modules has just the 
purpose to reflect the pipeline order.

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Willy Williams

I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines 
the reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that 
are not developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking 
that went into the design of the pipe?


Willy Williams

--

 "You don't take a picture.  You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."

 - Unknown

--

On 2/15/21 7:52 AM, Pascal Obry wrote:

Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit :

Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with
other tools,

Then use another tool.


  it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open
an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that
first.
Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then
perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of
modules should have nothing to do with the pipeline.

Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they
are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in
different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying
that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on
the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to
understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working
then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because
it cannot be changed.


This makes me feel again that DT is mostly for techies.

No, but people who understand what they do.





darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Andreas Herold

I want to say, that I could not use DT any longer, if I’m not able to see the 
pipeline order in the GUI. For me the visible order of modules has just the 
purpose to reflect the pipeline order.

> Am 15.02.2021 um 15:08 schrieb DougC :
> 
> You are simply saying you would not find this useful, but actually 
> problematic for you. That is not a good reason to prevent another user from 
> adding a custom module view to their GUI that does this.
> 
> 
> 
>  On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 08:40:44 -0500 Andreas Herold 
>  wrote 
> 
> I’m a normal user and no developer. For me it would be the worst thing ever, 
> if the order of modules displayed in the GUI would not reflect the pipeline 
> order. The output of one module is the input of another. If I change 
> parameters, I have to know which other modules might be affected (e.g. a 
> parametric mask might not match any longer).
> 
> 
> 
>  
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 



darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

You are simply saying you would not find this useful, but actually problematic 
for you. That is not a good reason to prevent another user from adding a custom 
module view to their GUI that does this.





 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 08:40:44 -0500 Andreas Herold  
wrote 


I’m a normal user and no developer. For me it would be the worst thing ever, if 
the order of modules displayed in the GUI would not reflect the pipeline order. 
The output of one module is the input of another. If I change parameters, I 
have to know which other modules might be affected (e.g. a parametric mask 
might not match any longer).

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Anton Aylward


On 2021-02-15 8:07 a.m., Kneops wrote:
I'm sorry, I do understand why this is important and cannot and should not be 
changed! But what I do not understand is why the visual order in the Darkroom 
cannot be changed. As I see it from a visual/users point of view is that they are 
like menu items, independent from the actual order in the background.


When you 'put you shoes and socks on' like your mother told you to do, do you put 
your shoes on first then your sock over them?


Kneops, I think you are seeing this like basic one-dimensional arithmetic which is 
both commutative and associative.


a * b * c = (a * b) * c = a * (b * c) = b * (a  * c) = (C * a) * b
and so on.
As you deal with higher 'dimensionality' (complex numbers for example) you start 
loosing that.  Altering the order alters the results.


Your comment about what appeals to the eye is interesting for someone who deals 
almost exclusively in RAW like myself.  years ago i experimented with setting my 
camera to "RAW+JPG" to see what happened.  Sometimes the RAW was very dark to the 
eye when I opened it in DT.  I found that sharpening and de-noising before 
'brightening' produced crisper, better rendered images than not only the camera's 
JPG but much better than lightening first.  It has to do with the amount of 
information available at each stage.


Of course if you start with a too-dark JPG then things are going to be different. 
You don't have the information there is in a RAW.  If the JPG is too dark then you 
probably had initial exposure problems, which are quite another matter.



But getting back to the original point: the operations in DT are not 
commutative.
Altering the order, that is altering the inputs to each module, will alter the 
results.  That might invovle the loss of necessary information to some modules.


There is good reason for the recommended workflow.

--
Anton J Aylward
Dodo Flight Research Laboratories
Icarus Division
North York, Ontario



darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Andreas Herold

Hi,

I’m a normal user and no developer. For me it would be the worst thing ever, if 
the order of modules displayed in the GUI would not reflect the pipeline order. 
The output of one module is the input of another. If I change parameters, I 
have to know which other modules might be affected (e.g. a parametric mask 
might not match any longer).

Best regards
Andreas


> Am 15.02.2021 um 14:33 schrieb DougC :
> 
> This is NOT a request to change the pipeline order, as some have wrongly 
> responded.
> 
> I do not understand why the devs who have responded to this request are so 
> adamantly against it. They have yet to actually say why this is a problem.
> 
> Why does the order displayed in the GUI have to always reflect the pipeline 
> order? Why not allow someone to display the modules in the order they prefer 
> in a "favorites" tab, while retaining the actual pipeline order during 
> processing? 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 



darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* DougC  [02-15-21 08:36]:
> This is NOT a request to change the pipeline order, as some have wrongly 
> responded.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not understand why the devs who have responded to this request are so 
> adamantly against it. They have yet to actually say why this is a problem.
> 
> 
> 
>  Why does the order displayed in the GUI have to always reflect the pipeline 
> order? Why not allow someone to display the modules in the order they prefer 
> in a "favorites" tab, while retaining the actual pipeline order during 
> processing?

why don't you make a feature request accompanied with your explanation so
it is understood?

https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/new?assignees=&labels=&template=feature_request.md&title=


-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

This is NOT a request to change the pipeline order, as some have wrongly 
responded.



I do not understand why the devs who have responded to this request are so 
adamantly against it. They have yet to actually say why this is a problem.



 Why does the order displayed in the GUI have to always reflect the pipeline 
order? Why not allow someone to display the modules in the order they prefer in 
a "favorites" tab, while retaining the actual pipeline order during processing?

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Ah okay, so that kind of ordering can be done anyway. I will experiment 
then.





Op 15-02-2021 om 14:09 schreef Terry Pinfold:

Hi,
     it is very easy to order the pipeline. The developers have 
determined the way they feel it works best for most workflows, but I 
find that at times I want or need to reorder the pipeline. It is so 
easy. Just use Ctrl + Shift to drop and drag the modules. For instance 
when I use Filmic RGB I often want to do a final adjustment with the RGB 
curves tool, so I just drag it above Filmic in the pipeline. I never 
want to have RGB curves before filmic but that is where the developers 
have placed it in their wisdom or oversight. But Darktable gives me the 
chice to change it and this is a strength of Darktable that leaves other 
programs for dead. However, understand that the developers have put 
thought into the order to achieve usually the best results so reorder 
the pipeline with caution. However it can be changed. Kudos to the 
developers for not locking us into a fixed workflow and pipeline. And 
yes they can be reordered before they have an effect on the pipeline. 
All I can say to anyone is that Darktable is one incredible and fun 
program to learn.


On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 21:44, Kneops > wrote:


Trying DT again I notice that I cannot reorder the modules, except when
they also have an effect on the order in the pipeline.

Intuitevely I work from top to bottom, exposure, white balance,
contrast, then cropping etc. and at the end things like sharpening and
vignetting. Now the modules have no logical order at all (except the
pipeline)

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




--




darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Terry Pinfold

Hi,
it is very easy to order the pipeline. The developers have determined
the way they feel it works best for most workflows, but I find that at
times I want or need to reorder the pipeline. It is so easy. Just use Ctrl
+ Shift to drop and drag the modules. For instance when I use Filmic RGB I
often want to do a final adjustment with the RGB curves tool, so I just
drag it above Filmic in the pipeline. I never want to have RGB curves
before filmic but that is where the developers have placed it in
their wisdom or oversight. But Darktable gives me the chice to change it
and this is a strength of Darktable that leaves other programs for dead.
However, understand that the developers have put thought into the order to
achieve usually the best results so reorder the pipeline with caution.
However it can be changed. Kudos to the developers for not locking us into
a fixed workflow and pipeline. And yes they can be reordered before they
have an effect on the pipeline. All I can say to anyone is that Darktable
is one incredible and fun program to learn.

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 21:44, Kneops  wrote:

> Trying DT again I notice that I cannot reorder the modules, except when
> they also have an effect on the order in the pipeline.
>
> Intuitevely I work from top to bottom, exposure, white balance,
> contrast, then cropping etc. and at the end things like sharpening and
> vignetting. Now the modules have no logical order at all (except the
> pipeline)
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>

--


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I'm sorry, I do understand why this is important and cannot and should 
not be changed! But what I do not understand is why the visual order in 
the Darkroom cannot be changed. As I see it from a visual/users point of 
view is that they are like menu items, independent from the actual order 
in the background.



Op 15-02-2021 om 13:52 schreef Pascal Obry:

Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they
are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in
different way if no at the same location.


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

2021-02-15 Thread Pascal Obry

Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit :
> Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with 
> other tools,

Then use another tool.

>  it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open 
> an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that
> first. 
> Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then 
> perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of
> modules should have nothing to do with the pipeline. 

Then you completely miss the fact that the order IS important as they
are run through the pipe in a specific order and so does interact in
different way if no at the same location. That would be like saying
that the mask in GIMP should be rearranged without having any impact on
the final rendering. This is just plain wrong, and if you don't want to
understand that or that is not the way you want the tool to be working
then fine... Please use another tool. This won't change in dt because
it cannot be changed.

> This makes me feel again that DT is mostly for techies.

No, but people who understand what they do.


-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with 
other tools, it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open 
an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that first. 
Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then 
perhaps cropping and straightening etc. The visual ordering of modules 
should have nothing to do with the pipeline. This makes me feel again 
that DT is mostly for techies.




Op 15-02-2021 om 13:21 schreef Martin Straeten:
the pipeline is the only existing logical order; all other possible 
orders are just workflow stuff - without any generalizable logical context.
Your "intuitively" refers to a workflow you're used from other tools. If 
you want to use darktable "intuitively" you need to learn about 
darktables pipeline...


Am Mo., 15. Feb. 2021 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb Kneops >:


Trying DT again I notice that I cannot reorder the modules, except when
they also have an effect on the order in the pipeline.

Intuitevely I work from top to bottom, exposure, white balance,
contrast, then cropping etc. and at the end things like sharpening and
vignetting. Now the modules have no logical order at all (except the
pipeline)

darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?