Re: [Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

[Nicklas SB Karlsson]

Yes. Just tried it and the lines below in the .init file do it provided you 
have the files "ethercat_1joint.glade" and
"1joint_side_panel.glade" in same directory as .ini file:

# Add GladeVCP panel as a tab next to Preview/DRO:
EMBED_TAB_NAME=gladevcp2 demo
EMBED_TAB_COMMAND=halcmd loadusr -Wn gladevcp gladevcp -c gladevcp2 -x {XID} 
ethercat_1joint.glade

# Add GladeVCP panel as side panel
GLADEVCP=1joint_side_panel.glade


If I remember correct there might be a problem if both panels have the same 
name. On the line with EMBED_TAB_COMMAND I
can't remember exactly what all parameters do but hopefully the manual will 
tell you·


Nicklas Karlsson


ons 2024-05-22 klockan 14:26 + skrev Todd Zuercher via Emc-users:
> Isit possible with Axis to have a GladeVDP side panel, and have a 
> different GladeVCP embedded in a tab at the same
> time? How about multiple embedded tabs?
> 
> I've not seen examples how to do this.
> 
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

[Todd Zuercher via Emc-users]

So this begs the question, how is it done?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Chris Morley 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 11:58 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

[You don't often get email from chrisinnana...@hotmail.com. Learn why this is 
important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Yes



Sent from my Galaxy



 Original message 
From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Date: 2024-05-22 7:47 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: [Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

Is it possible with Axis to have a GladeVDP side panel, and have a different 
GladeVCP embedded in a tab at the same time? How about multiple embedded tabs?

I've not seen examples how to do this.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.<http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/index.php>
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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Re: [Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

[Chris Morley]

Yes



Sent from my Galaxy



 Original message 
From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Date: 2024-05-22 7:47 a.m. (GMT-08:00)
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: [Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

Is it possible with Axis to have a GladeVDP side panel, and have a different 
GladeVCP embedded in a tab at the same time? How about multiple embedded tabs?

I've not seen examples how to do this.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.<http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/index.php>
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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[Emc-users] GladeVCP Question?

[Todd Zuercher via Emc-users]

Is it possible with Axis to have a GladeVDP side panel, and have a different 
GladeVCP embedded in a tab at the same time? How about multiple embedded tabs?

I've not seen examples how to do this.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

Gosh this was almost 2 years ago.  Don't even remember why I was asking.
John

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: February 23, 2024 10:30 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> 
> It is very easy to compute the rotational momentum of a complex-shape
> flywheel.   Let�s use a simplified case as an example:  You have a 100 mm
> diameter steel disk with an 80 mm hole.  This looks like a ring made of 10 mm
> thick metal.
> 
> First compute the momentum as if there was no hole, for a solid 100 mm
> disk,Next compute the same for an 80 mm disk. Subtract the 80mm disk
> momentum from the 100 mm disk momentum.
> 
> If you want to account for the spokes, figure out their �average thickness� as
> if the spokes were replaced by a thin sheet of metal and add that back in.
> 
> There is a more complex way to do this but it requires Calculus.   I think 
> they
> showed us the hard way just so that they could come back and show us
> students that you could decompose any complex wheel into a set of simple
> disks and then add and subtract them.
> 
> +
> 
> Stepper motors CAN work.   But not if you use the simple Step/Direction
> interface most drivers offer.   The step/dir convention is NOT a function of
> the motor.  It is a function of the motor driver.  The motor itself as A+/A-,
> B+/B- leads and takes analog voltages.  It is nothing more than a two-phase
> BLDC motor with many pole pairs.   You can drive a stepper in �continuous
> and smooth non-stepping� mode if you like, if you get a smarter driver that
> can continuously vary the input voltages.  The more sophisticated controller
> can driver the motor in �torque mode� so that it supplies a specified torque.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Feb 23, 2024, at 10:05�AM, gene heskett 
> wrote:
> >
> > On 6/16/22 21:57, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >> Hi Gene,
> >> Quite right.  That link I posted used a table while in fact, as you pointed
> out, the mass is mostly on the outside of a flywheel with spokes.  I would
> imagine at there is some average where if it's a 300 lb disk that is 24" 
> might be
> the same as a 36" disk that is 400 lbs.
> >> Think of a fly press for example with a clutch that engages the tooling.
> Even if it does take 5 seconds to get up to speed, the clutch engages, the 
> tool
> moves down and punches and moves up and the clutch releases.  Even if the
> speed slowed down by 20% when the clutch released then assuming linear
> acceleration now only 1 second is required to bring the speed back up.  At 50
> RPM (0.83 seconds per rev) then you could do another punch stroke 1
> second later and so possibly run 30 strokes per minute.
> >> That jpg chart I included suggests with 100% efficiency and no real 
> >> friction
> that 45 oz-in are required.   Seems very low to me hence the questions.  Even
> if I did use a stepper motor and went 16:1 to bring the RPM down to 800 RPM
> the motor could easily be a size 23 300 oz-in.
> >> Could that actually bring a flywheel up to that speed in 5 seconds?
> >
> > The closest I could come, assuming no frictional losses, would still be 
> > just a
> SWAG. But it sure seems to me a decimal point got moved or left out
> someplace.
> >
> > A stepper would be a poor choice of power unless the stepper drive also
> started at zero. A stepper unable to stay synced with the incoming step rate
> has next to zero torque. A vfd makes far more sense as you could set it for 2
> or 3x the motors FLA and the vfd would then throttle the current, using
> seriosly more drive currant immediately after a strike to get it back to 
> speed,
> but the average would still be only maintenance unless it was striking with
> every revolution. EG 50 strikes a minute. Given the time to extract and
> replace the next work piece is going to be at least a second, that would be
> one heck of a busy machine. Much the same could be said of a hirez encoder
> whose output was compared to the desired speed and a 1 horse treadmill
> motor being run by one of Jon's pwm-servos. Both solutions would need far
> less electrical power to get the job done than a steeper could do.
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >>> Sent: June-16-22 6:34 PM
> >>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> >>>
> >>> On 6/16/22 20:54, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >>>> OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me
> especially since I've

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[Chris Albertson]

It is very easy to compute the rotational momentum of a complex-shape flywheel. 
  Let’s use a simplified case as an example:  You have a 100 mm diameter steel 
disk with an 80 mm hole.  This looks like a ring made of 10 mm thick metal.

First compute the momentum as if there was no hole, for a solid 100 mm disk,
Next compute the same for an 80 mm disk. Subtract the 80mm disk momentum 
from the 100 mm disk momentum.

If you want to account for the spokes, figure out their “average thickness” as 
if the spokes were replaced by a thin sheet of metal and add that back in. 

There is a more complex way to do this but it requires Calculus.   I think they 
showed us the hard way just so that they could come back and show us students 
that you could decompose any complex wheel into a set of simple disks and then 
add and subtract them.

+

Stepper motors CAN work.   But not if you use the simple Step/Direction 
interface most drivers offer.   The step/dir convention is NOT a function of 
the motor.  It is a function of the motor driver.  The motor itself as A+/A-, 
B+/B- leads and takes analog voltages.  It is nothing more than a two-phase 
BLDC motor with many pole pairs.   You can drive a stepper in “continuous and 
smooth non-stepping” mode if you like, if you get a smarter driver that can 
continuously vary the input voltages.  The more sophisticated controller can 
driver the motor in “torque mode” so that it supplies a specified torque.   





> On Feb 23, 2024, at 10:05 AM, gene heskett  wrote:
> 
> On 6/16/22 21:57, John Dammeyer wrote:
>> Hi Gene,
>> Quite right.  That link I posted used a table while in fact, as you pointed 
>> out, the mass is mostly on the outside of a flywheel with spokes.  I would 
>> imagine at there is some average where if it's a 300 lb disk that is 24" 
>> might be the same as a 36" disk that is 400 lbs.
>> Think of a fly press for example with a clutch that engages the tooling.  
>> Even if it does take 5 seconds to get up to speed, the clutch engages, the 
>> tool moves down and punches and moves up and the clutch releases.  Even if 
>> the speed slowed down by 20% when the clutch released then assuming linear 
>> acceleration now only 1 second is required to bring the speed back up.  At 
>> 50 RPM (0.83 seconds per rev) then you could do another punch stroke 1 
>> second later and so possibly run 30 strokes per minute.
>> That jpg chart I included suggests with 100% efficiency and no real friction 
>> that 45 oz-in are required.   Seems very low to me hence the questions.  
>> Even if I did use a stepper motor and went 16:1 to bring the RPM down to 800 
>> RPM the motor could easily be a size 23 300 oz-in.
>> Could that actually bring a flywheel up to that speed in 5 seconds?
> 
> The closest I could come, assuming no frictional losses, would still be just 
> a SWAG. But it sure seems to me a decimal point got moved or left out 
> someplace.
> 
> A stepper would be a poor choice of power unless the stepper drive also 
> started at zero. A stepper unable to stay synced with the incoming step rate 
> has next to zero torque. A vfd makes far more sense as you could set it for 2 
> or 3x the motors FLA and the vfd would then throttle the current, using 
> seriosly more drive currant immediately after a strike to get it back to 
> speed, but the average would still be only maintenance unless it was striking 
> with every revolution. EG 50 strikes a minute. Given the time to extract and 
> replace the next work piece is going to be at least a second, that would be 
> one heck of a busy machine. Much the same could be said of a hirez encoder 
> whose output was compared to the desired speed and a 1 horse treadmill motor 
> being run by one of Jon's pwm-servos. Both solutions would need far less 
> electrical power to get the job done than a steeper could do.
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
>>> Sent: June-16-22 6:34 PM
>>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
>>> 
>>> On 6/16/22 20:54, John Dammeyer wrote:
>>>> OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me 
>>>> especially since I've included the ability
>>> to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw project.
>>>> 
>>>> A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
>>>> Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so 
>>>> final speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
>>>> 
>>>> Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor 
>>>> voltage is 12V.
>>>> 
>>>> We h

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[gene heskett]

On 6/16/22 21:57, John Dammeyer wrote:

Hi Gene,

Quite right.  That link I posted used a table while in fact, as you pointed out, the mass 
is mostly on the outside of a flywheel with spokes.  I would imagine at there is some 
average where if it's a 300 lb disk that is 24" might be the same as a 36" disk 
that is 400 lbs.

Think of a fly press for example with a clutch that engages the tooling.  Even 
if it does take 5 seconds to get up to speed, the clutch engages, the tool 
moves down and punches and moves up and the clutch releases.  Even if the speed 
slowed down by 20% when the clutch released then assuming linear acceleration 
now only 1 second is required to bring the speed back up.  At 50 RPM (0.83 
seconds per rev) then you could do another punch stroke 1 second later and so 
possibly run 30 strokes per minute.

That jpg chart I included suggests with 100% efficiency and no real friction 
that 45 oz-in are required.   Seems very low to me hence the questions.  Even 
if I did use a stepper motor and went 16:1 to bring the RPM down to 800 RPM the 
motor could easily be a size 23 300 oz-in.

Could that actually bring a flywheel up to that speed in 5 seconds?


The closest I could come, assuming no frictional losses, would still be 
just a SWAG. But it sure seems to me a decimal point got moved or left 
out someplace.


A stepper would be a poor choice of power unless the stepper drive also 
started at zero. A stepper unable to stay synced with the incoming step 
rate has next to zero torque. A vfd makes far more sense as you could 
set it for 2 or 3x the motors FLA and the vfd would then throttle the 
current, using seriosly more drive currant immediately after a strike to 
get it back to speed, but the average would still be only maintenance 
unless it was striking with every revolution. EG 50 strikes a minute. 
Given the time to extract and replace the next work piece is going to be 
at least a second, that would be one heck of a busy machine. Much the 
same could be said of a hirez encoder whose output was compared to the 
desired speed and a 1 horse treadmill motor being run by one of Jon's 
pwm-servos. Both solutions would need far less electrical power to get 
the job done than a steeper could do.



-Original Message-
From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
Sent: June-16-22 6:34 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

On 6/16/22 20:54, John Dammeyer wrote:

OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me especially 
since I've included the ability

to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw project.


A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so final 
speed of motor is 1600 RPM.

Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor voltage is 
12V.

We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor voltage.  
The question is what are

the calculations to determine how much current the motor will require to create 
this acceleration?
Assuming of course the motor is 100% efficient.


We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.

What size motor is actually needed to do this?

Thanks.
John


That John, is going to be determined by where that weight is.
If 270 lbs of it is in a rim 4 feet in diameter and the other 30
is in the spokes supporting that rim, its going to take a lot
more torque to get it up to speed in 5 seconds than it would
take if its only 2 feet in diameter, its the linear speed of the
outer diameters major mass that has to be moved to twice
as many feet per second needing 4x the torque to do it for
the 4 foot example, and Einstiens E=m*v*v comes into the
picture, cuz v=2*2 is 4, but v=4*4 is 16, not 8.

That's as close as I can get to the math, sorry. I'd have to
ask someone else for a SWAG or more knowledgeable
answer too. This is a case also, of doing a bit of cheating
with a bigger vfd running at a higher voltage and the low
speed current boost could, if enough line voltage is present,
bang a 1 horse motor hard enough to natch a 3 or 4 horse
motor, knowing the overdrive will only last a few seconds.

But, if going to machine cut with that motor, I'd have an
amprobe or equ watching the motor currant to make sure
the steady load is within the FLA on the motors nameplate.

I hope the real answer means you've a motor and vfd in
stock that will do it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
   - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Documentation question

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 at 19:10, Ray Henry  wrote:
>
> a Debian release is referred to as "Boolworm."  Is this a typo

Yes, just a typo.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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[Emc-users] Documentation question

[Ray Henry]

The document at

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.html

in the second row, first column of the table below #7. Alternate Install
Methods, a Debian release is referred to as "Boolworm."  Is this a typo or
am I missing something bigger?

Ray




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Re: [Emc-users] stupid question

[gene heskett]

On 10/16/23 16:24, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Gene,

This is how I understand it to work.  (It's been a while since I did a lot of 
subroutine programming so hopefully I don't mislead you.)

1. Yes, subs. do have access to global variables. The also have access to 
ordinary variables grater than #30 from the calling program.

The docs don't elaborate, thanks

2. Yes, subs. can write to global variables

I thought so, thanks


3. When one sub calls another sub it is usually called nesting. Yes, nested 
subs are supported (up to 10 deep.)

The docs don't claim that in their sparcity. Thanks again Todd


Only parameter numbers #1-#30 are considered local variables and are not 
automatically passed from the calling program to the subroutines.


That limitation has had me using global variables for about 20 years now 
in the code I've written. Someplace, DNK where now, I read that such 
passed as [1],[2] etc up to 30 are local to the sub and unchanged in the 
calling proggy regardless of what the sub does to them.


Thanks Todd.  Take care & stay well.


Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 3:22 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] stupid question

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

I need to make some subroutines into callable files, but some sub call other 
subs.  So 3 Q?'s:

1; do sub files need all the data passed in [] or do they have access to 
globally defined vars? in the main calling program?

2; can a subroutine file write to a globally defined #<_variable_name> to 
update it?

3; can a subroutine file call another file, then use the results of that call?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
   - Louis D. Brandeis


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.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] stupid question

[Todd Zuercher]

Gene,

This is how I understand it to work.  (It's been a while since I did a lot of 
subroutine programming so hopefully I don't mislead you.)

1. Yes, subs. do have access to global variables. The also have access to 
ordinary variables grater than #30 from the calling program.
2. Yes, subs. can write to global variables.
3. When one sub calls another sub it is usually called nesting. Yes, nested 
subs are supported (up to 10 deep.)

Only parameter numbers #1-#30 are considered local variables and are not 
automatically passed from the calling program to the subroutines.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 3:22 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] stupid question

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

I need to make some subroutines into callable files, but some sub call other 
subs.  So 3 Q?'s:

1; do sub files need all the data passed in [] or do they have access to 
globally defined vars? in the main calling program?

2; can a subroutine file write to a globally defined #<_variable_name> to 
update it?

3; can a subroutine file call another file, then use the results of that call?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis


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[Emc-users] stupid question

[gene heskett]

I need to make some subroutines into callable files, but some sub call 
other subs.  So 3 Q?'s:


1; do sub files need all the data passed in [] or do they have access to 
globally defined vars? in the main calling program?


2; can a subroutine file write to a globally defined #<_variable_name> 
to update it?


3; can a subroutine file call another file, then use the results of that 
call?


Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis


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Re: [Emc-users] HAL question

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Nicklas SB Karlsson [mailto:n...@nksb.eu]
> 
> Yes the manual say so. If you choose menu "Machine" item "Show hal
> configuration" it is also possible to find which pins are available.

Thanks.  I'd forgotten I could look at them that way.  Looking at the machine 
it turns out the compliment is available.  And reminds me why, as a software 
type,  I dislike the hal nomenclature so much. 

This is a minus sign '-' and yet it litters hal descriptions as a separator 
when the '_' will do just as well.  
Eg:  "net min-x <=  hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-00-not"

Seems the above example steered me in the wrong direction and the inverse is 
available as "in_not".  I'll rewrite where I can to use '_'.
"net toolsense_in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in_not"

Now to wire up the tool setter.  Hopefully no magic smoke.
John

> 
> s�n 2022-12-11 klockan 07:35 -0600 skrev John Figie:
> > "Do I just add -not to the end?
> > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not"
> >
> > I think that is the way to do it. That is how it works with my 7i80
> >
> > http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 10:34 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > One of the relies by Todd Zeurcher on the forum
> > > https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/33646-mesa-7i76-invert-input-pin
> > > states to invert the input
> > > hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-00-not
> > >
> > > I'm using the 7i92 and my inputs are referred to in this way.
> > > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in
> > >
> > > Do I just add -not to the end?
> > > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > John
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> > John Figie
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] HAL question

[Nicklas SB Karlsson]

Yes the manual say so. If you choose menu "Machine" item "Show hal
configuration" it is also possible to find which pins are available.

sön 2022-12-11 klockan 07:35 -0600 skrev John Figie:
> "Do I just add -not to the end?
> net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not"
> 
> I think that is the way to do it. That is how it works with my 7i80
> 
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 10:34 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > One of the relies by Todd Zeurcher on the forum
> > https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/33646-mesa-7i76-invert-input-pin
> > states to invert the input
> > hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-00-not
> > 
> > I'm using the 7i92 and my inputs are referred to in this way.
> > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in
> > 
> > Do I just add -not to the end?
> > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > John
> > 
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > 
> John Figie
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




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Re: [Emc-users] HAL question

[Sam Sokolik]

This is where halcmd comes in really handy..  When linuxcnc is launched -
bring up a terminal and type

halcmd -kf
than you can do a
show pin hm2[tab] enter.  This will show you all the pins.
or if there are parameters to set things
show param hm2[tab] enter

or you can bring up 'show hal configuration' usually from the machine menu.

I use halcmd all the time to test nets and stuff..
sam.

On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 7:39 AM John Figie  wrote:

> "Do I just add -not to the end?
> net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not"
>
> I think that is the way to do it. That is how it works with my 7i80
>
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 10:34 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
>
> > One of the relies by Todd Zeurcher on the forum
> >
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/33646-mesa-7i76-invert-input-pin
> > states to invert the input
> > hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-00-not
> >
> > I'm using the 7i92 and my inputs are referred to in this way.
> > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in
> >
> > Do I just add -not to the end?
> > net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > John
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> John Figie
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] HAL question

[John Figie]

"Do I just add -not to the end?
net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not"

I think that is the way to do it. That is how it works with my 7i80

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html



On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 10:34 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> One of the relies by Todd Zeurcher on the forum
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/33646-mesa-7i76-invert-input-pin
> states to invert the input
> hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-00-not
>
> I'm using the 7i92 and my inputs are referred to in this way.
> net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in
>
> Do I just add -not to the end?
> net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not
>
>
> Thanks
> John
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
John Figie

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[Emc-users] HAL question

[John Dammeyer]

One of the relies by Todd Zeurcher on the forum 
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/33646-mesa-7i76-invert-input-pin 
states to invert the input
hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-00-not
 
I'm using the 7i92 and my inputs are referred to in this way.
net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in
 
Do I just add -not to the end?
net toolsense-in <= hm2_7i92.0.gpio.030.in-not
 
 
Thanks
John

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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 at 18:02, Chris Albertson  wrote:

1) Model the flywheel in CAD, and get the moment of inertia that way
(make sure you look at the right one, which will depend on the
orientation that you modelled it at)
2) Calculate how much energy is in the flywheel at target speed. E = 1/2 I  ω^2
3) Get a motor rated at the _power_ needed to get that much energy
into the flywheel in the target time.
4) Then  swap that motor for one twice as big.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 12:25 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Of course doesn't include the bolts nor the ball bearings but does give an
> idea of rotational inertia.


Monemts of inertia add together.  If there is a wheel and a bolt, then
compute the inertia of the wheel, then compute the ineria of the bolt when
at it's radias from center then add the two to get the total.   Typically
you need to do this for all the parts, like the shaft and bearings.  If the
wheel is a complex shape like a disk with a wide rim the cut it up into
simpler parts, find the inertia of each part then add the parts.

I am in awe of anyone who can do this using American Costomary units (feet,
pounds,  and such)   Even in the late 1970's when I took physics at UCLA
the work was all in metric.  Yes we did get some problems using feet or
BTUs and such but the advice was to convert up front, work the problem then
convert back.   Seriously, the American unit of mass is "slugs", not pounds
(ounds is an American unit of force, not mass) and if you don't keep this
straight the answer is wrong.




> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-16-22 10:29 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
>
> OK, here is the problem.
>
> 1) we can not know the distance from the mass to the center of the wheel.
> Mass is always distributed,  It all cannot be at the same radius. S We
> define a concept called "moment of Inertia" that tell us how much a
> rotating body resists changes in rotation speed.   Your first step is to
> compute the wheel's moment of inertia.   If the wheel has a simple shape
> then there are formulas you can use.   If the wheel has a complex shape
> then it is more work to find the moment.
> This article explains what moment of inertia is and shows how to calculate
> it for various shapes
>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia
>
> 2) now that you know how much your wheel resists changes in rotational
> speed you can compute how much torque is required to accelerate the wheel.
> torque = (moment of inertia) x (rotational acceleration)
> This is just like the better known "f = ma" that works for linear motion.
> See here for more
>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque
>
> 3) so now you know the torque required.  You need to find a mother that
has
> this torque at the required RPM.   Moros produce less toque at higher
> speedSo you can not use the motor's rated torque at stall (zero RPM) you
> must look at the torque vs. RPM graph
>
> The trick is to watch the units. Keep the rotation units in radians per
> second and acceleration in read/second squared
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 7:50 PM John Dammeyer <  jo...@autoartisans.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure you are answering my question.
> >
> > Let me put it another way.  Assume you know the distance of the mass
from
> > the center.  And assume it's not possible to do any testing at this
time.
> > But you know the dimensions.
> >
> > Once the wheel is spinning it doesn't take a lot to keep it spinning.
> > Friction and air resistance mostly unless it's also being asked to
> > translate the spin back to some sort of work.
> >
> > Then let's say the need changes and now 2.5 seconds are required to
bring
> > it up to speed instead of 5 seconds.  What size motor then?
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chris Albertson [ <mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com> mailto:
albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-16-22 6:56 PM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> > >
> > > Knowing the mass of the wheel is not enough, you need to know how far
the
> > > mas is from the center of rotation.   They call this "Moment of
inertia"
> > > There are ways of calculating this for simple wheel shapes like a
plain
> > > disk but for anything else you are best off if you just measure it.
> > >
> > > The simplest way you can find your answer with not much math is to
wrap a
> > > string around the wheel and attach a weight to the string and time how
> > long
> > > it takes for the weight to fall some distance.  The weight will apply
a
> > > torque to the wheel equal to the weight times the radius of whatever
you
> > > wrapped the string around.
> > >
> > > Make the weight 

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

I suppose if I drew up the flywheel my AlibreCAD will do the calculations for 
me.  Here's the cup wheel from my external harmonic drive design.  Of course 
doesn't include the bolts nor the ball bearings but does give an idea of 
rotational inertia.
 

 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-16-22 10:29 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> 
> OK, here is the problem.
> 
> 1) we can not know the distance from the mass to the center of the wheel.
> Mass is always distributed,  It all cannot be at the same radius. S We
> define a concept called "moment of Inertia" that tell us how much a
> rotating body resists changes in rotation speed.   Your first step is to
> compute the wheel's moment of inertia.   If the wheel has a simple shape
> then there are formulas you can use.   If the wheel has a complex shape
> then it is more work to find the moment.
> This article explains what moment of inertia is and shows how to calculate
> it for various shapes
>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia
> 
> 2) now that you know how much your wheel resists changes in rotational
> speed you can compute how much torque is required to accelerate the wheel.
> torque = (moment of inertia) x (rotational acceleration)
> This is just like the better known "f = ma" that works for linear motion.
> See here for more
>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque
> 
> 3) so now you know the torque required.  You need to find a mother that has
> this torque at the required RPM.   Moros produce less toque at higher
> speedSo you can not use the motor's rated torque at stall (zero RPM) you
> must look at the torque vs. RPM graph
> 
> The trick is to watch the units. Keep the rotation units in radians per
> second and acceleration in read/second squared
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 7:50 PM John Dammeyer < 
> <mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com> jo...@autoartisans.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure you are answering my question.
> >
> > Let me put it another way.  Assume you know the distance of the mass from
> > the center.  And assume it's not possible to do any testing at this time.
> > But you know the dimensions.
> >
> > Once the wheel is spinning it doesn't take a lot to keep it spinning.
> > Friction and air resistance mostly unless it's also being asked to
> > translate the spin back to some sort of work.
> >
> > Then let's say the need changes and now 2.5 seconds are required to bring
> > it up to speed instead of 5 seconds.  What size motor then?
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chris Albertson [ <mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com> 
> > > mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-16-22 6:56 PM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> > >
> > > Knowing the mass of the wheel is not enough, you need to know how far the
> > > mas is from the center of rotation.   They call this "Moment of inertia"
> > > There are ways of calculating this for simple wheel shapes like a plain
> > > disk but for anything else you are best off if you just measure it.
> > >
> > > The simplest way you can find your answer with not much math is to wrap a
> > > string around the wheel and attach a weight to the string and time how
> > long
> > > it takes for the weight to fall some distance.  The weight will apply a
> > > torque to the wheel equal to the weight times the radius of whatever you
> > > wrapped the string around.
> > >
> > > Make the weight bigger until it works, then buy a motor that can supply
> > > that torque, plus a bit more.
> > >
> > > if you really want to calculate the moment, perhaps because you have not
> > > yet built the wheel then remember that the wheels moment is equal to the
> > > some of the moments of the parts of the wheel (the parts add up)  So
> > divide
> > > the wheel into (say) a rim, a thin disk and a hub find the moment of each
> > > and then add them.
> > >
> > > But the string experiment is easier.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 5:53 PM John Dammeyer < 
> > > <mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com> jo...@autoartisans.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

Thanks.  Using a toroid as an example flywheel understanding that it's 
rotational inertia is larger than a flat sided flywheel let's use a 4" diameter 
donut with the center at 12" giving us a 24" diameter donut.
 
And in my example I'm saying it weighs 300 lbs.  So the formula from the first 
wiki page gives me a rotational inertia of 214.6.  After that's it's pretty 
standard physics I think?
 
Our time is 5 seconds and target velocity is 5.24 radians per second resulting 
in an acceleration of 1.05 radians per second per second.  If Our force 
(Torque) = ma then it's 314 ft-lbs  but recall I said the reduction drive was 
32:1 so that works out to 9.8 ft.lbs or 1885 oz.in at 1600 RPM.  
 
Not really within the realm of a stepper motor but DC/AC Servo can do that.  A 
quick look on the net suggests a 3.8kW motor would do the job.
 

 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-16-22 10:29 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> 
> OK, here is the problem.
> 
> 1) we can not know the distance from the mass to the center of the wheel.
> Mass is always distributed,  It all cannot be at the same radius. S We
> define a concept called "moment of Inertia" that tell us how much a
> rotating body resists changes in rotation speed.   Your first step is to
> compute the wheel's moment of inertia.   If the wheel has a simple shape
> then there are formulas you can use.   If the wheel has a complex shape
> then it is more work to find the moment.
> This article explains what moment of inertia is and shows how to calculate
> it for various shapes
>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia
> 
> 2) now that you know how much your wheel resists changes in rotational
> speed you can compute how much torque is required to accelerate the wheel.
> torque = (moment of inertia) x (rotational acceleration)
> This is just like the better known "f = ma" that works for linear motion.
> See here for more
>  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque
> 
> 3) so now you know the torque required.  You need to find a mother that has
> this torque at the required RPM.   Moros produce less toque at higher
> speedSo you can not use the motor's rated torque at stall (zero RPM) you
> must look at the torque vs. RPM graph
> 
> The trick is to watch the units. Keep the rotation units in radians per
> second and acceleration in read/second squared
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 7:50 PM John Dammeyer < 
> <mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com> jo...@autoartisans.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure you are answering my question.
> >
> > Let me put it another way.  Assume you know the distance of the mass from
> > the center.  And assume it's not possible to do any testing at this time.
> > But you know the dimensions.
> >
> > Once the wheel is spinning it doesn't take a lot to keep it spinning.
> > Friction and air resistance mostly unless it's also being asked to
> > translate the spin back to some sort of work.
> >
> > Then let's say the need changes and now 2.5 seconds are required to bring
> > it up to speed instead of 5 seconds.  What size motor then?
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chris Albertson [ <mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com> 
> > > mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-16-22 6:56 PM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> > >
> > > Knowing the mass of the wheel is not enough, you need to know how far the
> > > mas is from the center of rotation.   They call this "Moment of inertia"
> > > There are ways of calculating this for simple wheel shapes like a plain
> > > disk but for anything else you are best off if you just measure it.
> > >
> > > The simplest way you can find your answer with not much math is to wrap a
> > > string around the wheel and attach a weight to the string and time how
> > long
> > > it takes for the weight to fall some distance.  The weight will apply a
> > > torque to the wheel equal to the weight times the radius of whatever you
> > > wrapped the string around.
> > >
> > > Make the weight bigger until it works, then buy a motor that can supply
> > > that torque, plus a bit more.
> > >
> > > if you really want to calculate

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[Chris Albertson]

OK, here is the problem.

1) we can not know the distance from the mass to the center of the wheel.
Mass is always distributed,  It all cannot be at the same radius. S We
define a concept called "moment of Inertia" that tell us how much a
rotating body resists changes in rotation speed.   Your first step is to
compute the wheel's moment of inertia.   If the wheel has a simple shape
then there are formulas you can use.   If the wheel has a complex shape
then it is more work to find the moment.
This article explains what moment of inertia is and shows how to calculate
it for various shapes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia

2) now that you know how much your wheel resists changes in rotational
speed you can compute how much torque is required to accelerate the wheel.
torque = (moment of inertia) x (rotational acceleration)
This is just like the better known "f = ma" that works for linear motion.
See here for more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_acceleration#Relation_to_torque

3) so now you know the torque required.  You need to find a mother that has
this torque at the required RPM.   Moros produce less toque at higher
speedSo you can not use the motor's rated torque at stall (zero RPM) you
must look at the torque vs. RPM graph

The trick is to watch the units. Keep the rotation units in radians per
second and acceleration in read/second squared



On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 7:50 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> I'm not sure you are answering my question.
>
> Let me put it another way.  Assume you know the distance of the mass from
> the center.  And assume it's not possible to do any testing at this time.
> But you know the dimensions.
>
> Once the wheel is spinning it doesn't take a lot to keep it spinning.
> Friction and air resistance mostly unless it's also being asked to
> translate the spin back to some sort of work.
>
> Then let's say the need changes and now 2.5 seconds are required to bring
> it up to speed instead of 5 seconds.  What size motor then?
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-16-22 6:56 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> >
> > Knowing the mass of the wheel is not enough, you need to know how far the
> > mas is from the center of rotation.   They call this "Moment of inertia"
> > There are ways of calculating this for simple wheel shapes like a plain
> > disk but for anything else you are best off if you just measure it.
> >
> > The simplest way you can find your answer with not much math is to wrap a
> > string around the wheel and attach a weight to the string and time how
> long
> > it takes for the weight to fall some distance.  The weight will apply a
> > torque to the wheel equal to the weight times the radius of whatever you
> > wrapped the string around.
> >
> > Make the weight bigger until it works, then buy a motor that can supply
> > that torque, plus a bit more.
> >
> > if you really want to calculate the moment, perhaps because you have not
> > yet built the wheel then remember that the wheels moment is equal to the
> > some of the moments of the parts of the wheel (the parts add up)  So
> divide
> > the wheel into (say) a rim, a thin disk and a hub find the moment of each
> > and then add them.
> >
> > But the string experiment is easier.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 5:53 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me
> > > especially since I've included the ability to accelerate in my
> Electronic
> > > Lead Screw project.
> > >
> > > A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to
> speed.
> > > Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so
> > > final speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
> > >
> > > Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor
> > > voltage is 12V.
> > >
> > > We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor
> > > voltage.  The question is what are the calculations to determine how
> much
> > > current the motor will require to create this acceleration?  Assuming
> of
> > > course the motor is 100% efficient.
> > >
> > > We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
> > >
> > > What size motor is actually needed to do this?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > John
> > >
> > > "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> &g

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[gene heskett]

On 6/16/22 21:57, John Dammeyer wrote:

Hi Gene,

Quite right.  That link I posted used a table while in fact, as you pointed out, the mass 
is mostly on the outside of a flywheel with spokes.  I would imagine at there is some 
average where if it's a 300 lb disk that is 24" might be the same as a 36" disk 
that is 400 lbs.

Think of a fly press for example with a clutch that engages the tooling.  Even 
if it does take 5 seconds to get up to speed, the clutch engages, the tool 
moves down and punches and moves up and the clutch releases.  Even if the speed 
slowed down by 20% when the clutch released then assuming linear acceleration 
now only 1 second is required to bring the speed back up.  At 50 RPM (0.83 
seconds per rev) then you could do another punch stroke 1 second later and so 
possibly run 30 strokes per minute.

That jpg chart I included suggests with 100% efficiency and no real friction 
that 45 oz-in are required.   Seems very low to me hence the questions.  Even 
if I did use a stepper motor and went 16:1 to bring the RPM down to 800 RPM the 
motor could easily be a size 23 300 oz-in.

Could that actually bring a flywheel up to that speed in 5 seconds?
Maybe, if you had a more non-linear control that most, but I'd stay away 
from steppers
because if it slips a step, it will stop. I'd much rather have an 
encoder right on the motor
like I did on the go704, and in your case get a 1 or 2 horse treadmill 
mill motor, drive it from
around 125 volts from  an unregulated DC supply, controlling it with one 
of Jon's PWM-Servo
drivers (Pico Systems) for long lasting dependability. That combo can 
turn my go704 mills
spindle from 3k fwd to 3k in reverse is 350 milliseconds. I've a 5" 
chuck on TLM, and
essentially the same circuit with a few less amps available, can turn 
that 5" chuck doing
500 revs, in a full reverse, or back foward, in around 400 milliseconds. 
That servo driver of
Jon's is a full 4 quadrant control, recovering the energy in the motor 
when bringing it to a
stop, and charging the supply's filter caps up to around 170 volts in 
about 100 milliseconds,
but it then uses that energy recovered to re-accelerate the motor in the 
other direction.


You don't need the reversal so that energy is not there to recover, it 
must come from the
wall socket. I hear the iron chirp from the PWM-Servo going into current 
limit at around
18 amps for a small fraction of a second. That  means your service will  
need a 25 amp
breaker to stop the nuisance trips. IOW, that 1 hp motor is for a few 
milliseconds
making right at 2 hp, and its been doing it, without even fresh brushes 
for around 7
years on the go704 now. TLM about a year more. But I've also broken lots 
of drive

parts until I put the limit3 in its hal file.

So that's how I would build your setup, basically using the current 
limiter of Jon's driver
to set the limit. And if It has time to spare profiling the on start 
signal with a limit3 can slow
it just enough it won't hit the limiter and that could probably get your 
service breaker

down to 20 amps, allowing a 10 gauge feed line legally.

Take care & stay well John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

I'm not sure you are answering my question.  

Let me put it another way.  Assume you know the distance of the mass from the 
center.  And assume it's not possible to do any testing at this time.  But you 
know the dimensions.

Once the wheel is spinning it doesn't take a lot to keep it spinning.  Friction 
and air resistance mostly unless it's also being asked to translate the spin 
back to some sort of work.

Then let's say the need changes and now 2.5 seconds are required to bring it up 
to speed instead of 5 seconds.  What size motor then?



> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-16-22 6:56 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> 
> Knowing the mass of the wheel is not enough, you need to know how far the
> mas is from the center of rotation.   They call this "Moment of inertia"
> There are ways of calculating this for simple wheel shapes like a plain
> disk but for anything else you are best off if you just measure it.
> 
> The simplest way you can find your answer with not much math is to wrap a
> string around the wheel and attach a weight to the string and time how long
> it takes for the weight to fall some distance.  The weight will apply a
> torque to the wheel equal to the weight times the radius of whatever you
> wrapped the string around.
> 
> Make the weight bigger until it works, then buy a motor that can supply
> that torque, plus a bit more.
> 
> if you really want to calculate the moment, perhaps because you have not
> yet built the wheel then remember that the wheels moment is equal to the
> some of the moments of the parts of the wheel (the parts add up)  So divide
> the wheel into (say) a rim, a thin disk and a hub find the moment of each
> and then add them.
> 
> But the string experiment is easier.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 5:53 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me
> > especially since I've included the ability to accelerate in my Electronic
> > Lead Screw project.
> >
> > A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
> > Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so
> > final speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
> >
> > Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor
> > voltage is 12V.
> >
> > We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor
> > voltage.  The question is what are the calculations to determine how much
> > current the motor will require to create this acceleration?  Assuming of
> > course the motor is 100% efficient.
> >
> > We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
> >
> > What size motor is actually needed to do this?
> >
> > Thanks.
> > John
> >
> > "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> > Automation Artisans Inc.
> > www dot autoartisans dot com
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[Chris Albertson]

The question of what motor to use is different from asking how much torque
is required. What you will find is that motors have a torque vs. RPM
graph.   The torque a motor can provide is different at each speed.So
as the wheel starts at 0 RPM and goes up to 1,600 RPM, the
motor's available torque is constantly changing.

A stepper motor might have only 1/2 the torque at 1,000 RPM that it had at
1 RPM.  So the acceleration could be twice as much at first.

If you are looking for the best performance per dollar you have a hard
problem and will need to create a numerical simulation.  This is why
engineers earn thier 6-figure income because they can tell you that you can
use some motor that costs 42 cents less, and it will work and still provide
the required 20% design margin.   Then after they build a million widgets,
the company saved $420K, justifying the engineer's salary three times
over.   But if you are building one unit, it is not worth using too many
hours of brain power, just buy a motor that is 2X oversized, pay twice as
much and don't worry about the $30 you could have saved.   I would not want
to work 20 hours to save $30.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 6:56 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Hi Gene,
>
> Quite right.  That link I posted used a table while in fact, as you
> pointed out, the mass is mostly on the outside of a flywheel with spokes.
> I would imagine at there is some average where if it's a 300 lb disk that
> is 24" might be the same as a 36" disk that is 400 lbs.
>
> Think of a fly press for example with a clutch that engages the tooling.
> Even if it does take 5 seconds to get up to speed, the clutch engages, the
> tool moves down and punches and moves up and the clutch releases.  Even if
> the speed slowed down by 20% when the clutch released then assuming linear
> acceleration now only 1 second is required to bring the speed back up.  At
> 50 RPM (0.83 seconds per rev) then you could do another punch stroke 1
> second later and so possibly run 30 strokes per minute.
>
> That jpg chart I included suggests with 100% efficiency and no real
> friction that 45 oz-in are required.   Seems very low to me hence the
> questions.  Even if I did use a stepper motor and went 16:1 to bring the
> RPM down to 800 RPM the motor could easily be a size 23 300 oz-in.
>
> Could that actually bring a flywheel up to that speed in 5 seconds?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: June-16-22 6:34 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> >
> > On 6/16/22 20:54, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me
> especially since I've included the ability
> > to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw project.
> > >
> > > A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to
> speed.
> > > Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so
> final speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
> > >
> > > Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor
> voltage is 12V.
> > >
> > > We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor
> voltage.  The question is what are
> > the calculations to determine how much current the motor will require to
> create this acceleration?
> > Assuming of course the motor is 100% efficient.
> > >
> > > We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
> > >
> > > What size motor is actually needed to do this?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > John
> > >
> > That John, is going to be determined by where that weight is.
> > If 270 lbs of it is in a rim 4 feet in diameter and the other 30
> > is in the spokes supporting that rim, its going to take a lot
> > more torque to get it up to speed in 5 seconds than it would
> > take if its only 2 feet in diameter, its the linear speed of the
> > outer diameters major mass that has to be moved to twice
> > as many feet per second needing 4x the torque to do it for
> > the 4 foot example, and Einstiens E=m*v*v comes into the
> > picture, cuz v=2*2 is 4, but v=4*4 is 16, not 8.
> >
> > That's as close as I can get to the math, sorry. I'd have to
> > ask someone else for a SWAG or more knowledgeable
> > answer too. This is a case also, of doing a bit of cheating
> > with a bigger vfd running at a higher voltage and the low
> > speed current boost could, if enough line voltage is present,
> > bang a 1 horse motor hard enough to natch a 3 or 4 horse
> > motor, knowing the overdrive will only last a few seconds.
> >
> > But, if going t

Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[Chris Albertson]

Knowing the mass of the wheel is not enough, you need to know how far the
mas is from the center of rotation.   They call this "Moment of inertia"
There are ways of calculating this for simple wheel shapes like a plain
disk but for anything else you are best off if you just measure it.

The simplest way you can find your answer with not much math is to wrap a
string around the wheel and attach a weight to the string and time how long
it takes for the weight to fall some distance.  The weight will apply a
torque to the wheel equal to the weight times the radius of whatever you
wrapped the string around.

Make the weight bigger until it works, then buy a motor that can supply
that torque, plus a bit more.

if you really want to calculate the moment, perhaps because you have not
yet built the wheel then remember that the wheels moment is equal to the
some of the moments of the parts of the wheel (the parts add up)  So divide
the wheel into (say) a rim, a thin disk and a hub find the moment of each
and then add them.

But the string experiment is easier.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 5:53 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me
> especially since I've included the ability to accelerate in my Electronic
> Lead Screw project.
>
> A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
> Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so
> final speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
>
> Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor
> voltage is 12V.
>
> We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor
> voltage.  The question is what are the calculations to determine how much
> current the motor will require to create this acceleration?  Assuming of
> course the motor is 100% efficient.
>
> We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
>
> What size motor is actually needed to do this?
>
> Thanks.
> John
>
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,

Quite right.  That link I posted used a table while in fact, as you pointed 
out, the mass is mostly on the outside of a flywheel with spokes.  I would 
imagine at there is some average where if it's a 300 lb disk that is 24" might 
be the same as a 36" disk that is 400 lbs.

Think of a fly press for example with a clutch that engages the tooling.  Even 
if it does take 5 seconds to get up to speed, the clutch engages, the tool 
moves down and punches and moves up and the clutch releases.  Even if the speed 
slowed down by 20% when the clutch released then assuming linear acceleration 
now only 1 second is required to bring the speed back up.  At 50 RPM (0.83 
seconds per rev) then you could do another punch stroke 1 second later and so 
possibly run 30 strokes per minute.

That jpg chart I included suggests with 100% efficiency and no real friction 
that 45 oz-in are required.   Seems very low to me hence the questions.  Even 
if I did use a stepper motor and went 16:1 to bring the RPM down to 800 RPM the 
motor could easily be a size 23 300 oz-in.  

Could that actually bring a flywheel up to that speed in 5 seconds?

> -Original Message-
> From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: June-16-22 6:34 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> 
> On 6/16/22 20:54, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me 
> > especially since I've included the ability
> to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw project.
> >
> > A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
> > Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so 
> > final speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
> >
> > Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor 
> > voltage is 12V.
> >
> > We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor voltage. 
> >  The question is what are
> the calculations to determine how much current the motor will require to 
> create this acceleration?
> Assuming of course the motor is 100% efficient.
> >
> > We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
> >
> > What size motor is actually needed to do this?
> >
> > Thanks.
> > John
> >
> That John, is going to be determined by where that weight is.
> If 270 lbs of it is in a rim 4 feet in diameter and the other 30
> is in the spokes supporting that rim, its going to take a lot
> more torque to get it up to speed in 5 seconds than it would
> take if its only 2 feet in diameter, its the linear speed of the
> outer diameters major mass that has to be moved to twice
> as many feet per second needing 4x the torque to do it for
> the 4 foot example, and Einstiens E=m*v*v comes into the
> picture, cuz v=2*2 is 4, but v=4*4 is 16, not 8.
> 
> That's as close as I can get to the math, sorry. I'd have to
> ask someone else for a SWAG or more knowledgeable
> answer too. This is a case also, of doing a bit of cheating
> with a bigger vfd running at a higher voltage and the low
> speed current boost could, if enough line voltage is present,
> bang a 1 horse motor hard enough to natch a 3 or 4 horse
> motor, knowing the overdrive will only last a few seconds.
> 
> But, if going to machine cut with that motor, I'd have an
> amprobe or equ watching the motor currant to make sure
> the steady load is within the FLA on the motors nameplate.
> 
> I hope the real answer means you've a motor and vfd in
> stock that will do it.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[gene heskett]

On 6/16/22 21:09, John Dammeyer wrote:

Addendum to this:
https://www.orientalmotor.com/motor-sizing/rotaryDevice-sizing.html#QuickReport

I chose a 24" disk, 5 seconds to get up to 50 RPM.


That's going to work for a flat plate, but will give you
a low answer with disappointing results for the case
of thin spokes with 90% of the weight in the rim.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[gene heskett]

On 6/16/22 20:54, John Dammeyer wrote:

OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me especially 
since I've included the ability to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw 
project.
  
A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.

Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so final 
speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
  
Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor voltage is 12V.
  
We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor voltage.  The question is what are the calculations to determine how much current the motor will require to create this acceleration?  Assuming of course the motor is 100% efficient.
  
We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
  
What size motor is actually needed to do this?
  
Thanks.

John
  

That John, is going to be determined by where that weight is.
If 270 lbs of it is in a rim 4 feet in diameter and the other 30
is in the spokes supporting that rim, its going to take a lot
more torque to get it up to speed in 5 seconds than it would
take if its only 2 feet in diameter, its the linear speed of the
outer diameters major mass that has to be moved to twice
as many feet per second needing 4x the torque to do it for
the 4 foot example, and Einstiens E=m*v*v comes into the
picture, cuz v=2*2 is 4, but v=4*4 is 16, not 8.

That's as close as I can get to the math, sorry. I'd have to
ask someone else for a SWAG or more knowledgeable
answer too. This is a case also, of doing a bit of cheating
with a bigger vfd running at a higher voltage and the low
speed current boost could, if enough line voltage is present,
bang a 1 horse motor hard enough to natch a 3 or 4 horse
motor, knowing the overdrive will only last a few seconds.

But, if going to machine cut with that motor, I'd have an
amprobe or equ watching the motor currant to make sure
the steady load is within the FLA on the motors nameplate.

I hope the real answer means you've a motor and vfd in
stock that will do it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

Addendum to this:
https://www.orientalmotor.com/motor-sizing/rotaryDevice-sizing.html#QuickReport

I chose a 24" disk, 5 seconds to get up to 50 RPM.

> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: June-16-22 5:50 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Acceleration question.
> 
> OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me 
> especially since I've included the ability
> to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw project.
> 
> A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
> Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so final 
> speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
> 
> Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor voltage 
> is 12V.
> 
> We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor voltage.  
> The question is what are
> the calculations to determine how much current the motor will require to 
> create this acceleration?
> Assuming of course the motor is 100% efficient.
> 
> We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
> 
> What size motor is actually needed to do this?
> 
> Thanks.
> John
> 
> "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> Automation Artisans Inc.
> www dot autoartisans dot com
> 
> 
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[Emc-users] Acceleration question.

[John Dammeyer]

OK.  I realize this will be a dumb question but please bear with me especially 
since I've included the ability to accelerate in my Electronic Lead Screw 
project.
 
A friend and I were discussing bringing a 300 pound flywheel up to speed.
Vz=0 RPM, Vf=50 RPM.  Reduction drive to the flywheel shaft is 32:1 so final 
speed of motor is 1600 RPM.
 
Assume we're happy with 5 seconds to accelerate for Tz to Tf.  Motor voltage is 
12V.
 
We have the mass, we have the velocity, we have the time and motor voltage.  
The question is what are the calculations to determine how much current the 
motor will require to create this acceleration?  Assuming of course the motor 
is 100% efficient.
 
We're getting all confused with F=ma and 1/2*a*t^2 etc.
 
What size motor is actually needed to do this?
 
Thanks.
John
 
"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
Automation Artisans Inc.
www dot autoartisans dot com 
 

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Re: [Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 07 October 2021 22:38:39 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Subject: [Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re
> > incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.
> >
> > Hello all;
> >
> > Axis apparently hasn't the resources to do what I want, and which I
> > am convinced other users with controlling pendents would also find
> > very handy.
> >
> > Is there anther gui besides axis, that can do what I want?
> >
> > What I want is for a signal from one of the dials that can move this
> > lathe, to update the last active axis button. These signals are only
> > activated if the dial is enabled AND being turned. They are not
> > generated if the dials enabling timer has timed out. The result
> > would be equivalent, and identical to jogging the machine with the
> > keyboard resulting in a touchoff always being applied to the last
> > axis moved.
> >
> > If there is another gui that *can* be made to do that, please name
> > it, and I will attempt to learn it.
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> I agree with you that the pendant should change the radio button. 
> It's a human factors user issue that needs to be fixed.  The problem
> is as far as I can see the pendant doesn't send information when the
> dial is switched to another axis.
>
Separate per axis dials here John. Located on the carriages apron.

> And if you think about it, the switch itself doesn't rotate back to X
> if you have it on Z and jog X on the keyboard.  So you're right that
> the radio button can only change if a step message is sent for a
> specific axis.

Presently ONLY by the keyboard or a mouse click, both of which are about 
as handy as a $3 bill.

Which I can do but only to halui, which also registers it in its halshow 
section, but axis ignores that halui stuff.

> I did start looking into it but haven't had time over the last little
> while.   I think this should be possible but it requires a change to
> AXIS to make the radio buttons read/write and available which it looks
> like they aren't.  And the pendant software has to be able to then set
> the radio button.

Which is exactly what I want to do. And no one has given me a reason this 
cannot be done. Someone, Chris I think, made the argument that it could 
get out of synch, and what I want to do assures that synchronization is 
maintained by assuring the radio buttons follow that last moved by rule.

The present situation puts it out of synch unless the mouse is used to 
click on the correct button, or the keyboard jog key is used, and the 
keyboard jog key moves the machine off the point I just set with the 
dials. The dials have their own per click size settings that are not 
affected by the axis jog speed sliders. I can set movement as small 
as .0001" per click, or up to 20 thou, each dial independently, I can 
set it for more in hal, but even at 20 thou that machine can't keep up 
with a good spin of the dials. There are, acc the docs, two modes for 
jogging, one is absolute value, the other stops when the dial stops, but 
that just feels wrong. And takes longer to detect the stop, overshooting 
the desired position.

I can even set up mseeages to remind me to use the mouse to correct the 
radio buttons, but that gets me a message per click, and would get 
tiresome clearing all those at 400 per full turn, particularly when an 
in pin in axisui would only need two target additions in the net 
statements from the click detectors in my hal file to solve this problem 
correctly and forever.

> Like you I've been caught with touching off what I think is the Z
> because I used the pendant to sneak up to the surface but on AXIS it's
> still at X.  Then press start and watch it head at full speed toward
> the table because Z is incorrect.

Or in the lathe case, run a tool with a $20 carbide chip in it into a 
chuck jaw spinning at whatever rpm, with my bronze bushings and only a 1 
horse motor, 600 revs is tops but its still a bent tool and a shattered 
chip even at 30 revs.

Eggzactly John, with EGG$penive broken tooling being part of the 
hill-air-itty ensuing. Absolutely nothing hilarious about broken 
tooling.

The keyboard inputs are only true for the duration of the keypress and I 
can't make a good argument to deny me the ability to "or" that signal 
from my dials to do exactly the same as the last moved by logic in axis 
that now runs those buttons.

I'm not using the inputs in halui, but testing a year or so back, using 
halui to move the machine also fails to update the axis buttons. Fixing 
that would also enable this to become automatic once the "net" statement 
were corrected.

I'd call fixing that a huge step fo

Re: [Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Subject: [Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re 
> incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.
> 
> Hello all;
> 
> Axis apparently hasn't the resources to do what I want, and which I am
> convinced other users with controlling pendents would also find very
> handy.
> 
> Is there anther gui besides axis, that can do what I want?
> 
> What I want is for a signal from one of the dials that can move this
> lathe, to update the last active axis button. These signals are only
> activated if the dial is enabled AND being turned. They are not
> generated if the dials enabling timer has timed out. The result would be
> equivalent, and identical to jogging the machine with the keyboard
> resulting in a touchoff always being applied to the last axis moved.
> 
> If there is another gui that *can* be made to do that, please name it,
> and I will attempt to learn it.
> 
> Thanks all.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.

Hi Gene,

I agree with you that the pendant should change the radio button.  It's a human 
factors user issue that needs to be fixed.  The problem is as far as I can see 
the pendant doesn't send information when the dial is switched to another axis.

And if you think about it, the switch itself doesn't rotate back to X if you 
have it on Z and jog X on the keyboard.  So you're right that the radio button 
can only change if a step message is sent for a specific axis.

I did start looking into it but haven't had time over the last little while.   
I think this should be possible but it requires a change to AXIS to make the 
radio buttons read/write and available which it looks like they aren't.  And 
the pendant software has to be able to then set the radio button.

Like you I've been caught with touching off what I think is the Z because I 
used the pendant to sneak up to the surface but on AXIS it's still at X.  Then 
press start and watch it head at full speed toward the table because Z is 
incorrect.

John




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[Emc-users] Another question I haven't asked but should, re incorporating my dials into the active axis buttons.

[Gene Heskett]

Hello all;

Axis apparently hasn't the resources to do what I want, and which I am 
convinced other users with controlling pendents would also find very 
handy.

Is there anther gui besides axis, that can do what I want?

What I want is for a signal from one of the dials that can move this 
lathe, to update the last active axis button. These signals are only 
activated if the dial is enabled AND being turned. They are not 
generated if the dials enabling timer has timed out. The result would be 
equivalent, and identical to jogging the machine with the keyboard 
resulting in a touchoff always being applied to the last axis moved.

If there is another gui that *can* be made to do that, please name it, 
and I will attempt to learn it.

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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[Emc-users] A question for Sam S.

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings Sam;

I'm working on an all printed, miniature version of the loose belt 
harmonic drive and am about 90% done in a unit sized to work with the A 
axis supplied with a 4 axis 6090 gantry mill. 21.5mm thick, and about 
85mm around. Rather than bolted, the inner facing splines are keyed to 
prevent slippage, and I'm using the same recipe in openscad to generate 
the two rings with the only diff being the number of splines. One at 60, 
one at 62 teeth, loose belt is 60 teeth. Simple, eccentric by 2mm 
armature, with 2 printed race ball bearings on the armature to drive the 
inside of the loose spline, also printed but in PETG as its enough more 
flexible that at 2mm eccentricity, has not failed even for long enough 
my fingers are numb from around 3500 rpms at the motor. Repeatedly. PLA 
broke in seconds.

All this on the cheap as the bearing balls are crosmann bb's. They aren't 
all that precise but neither is the printer, but I can tweak the sizes 
quite well in openscad to .005 mm's.

So they are interchangeable. AIUI, interchanging them will reverse the 
direction the output turns while also changing the gear ratio. So a 30/1 
going backwards becomes a 29/1 turning forwards. Or something like that.

So my question is:
Is there, since lcnc can do both just as easily, a preferred, 
mechanically better direction?

I'm currently driving it, without an alu hub for the armature by making a 
Dflat hole in the armature for the 8mm shaft of one of the new 3 phase 
stepper/servo motors (after I ground a much wider Dflat than supplied 
with a CBN wheel, those are magic) and have a box of 1NM's on order as 
they have the same size shaft but are about 3+" shorter. And should 
still be able to spin the input shaft up to 3+ grand or so. With a 23 
tooth sprocket on this drives output, and a 83 tooth sprocket on the 
axle with a 3" chuck on the other end, it should make over 500 rpm at 
the chuck. With arc-minute accuracy. All from less than half a small 
bottle of bb's and about a 1/4 kg of plastic filament. $15 total. Cheap, 
if you break it, make another.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Thaddeus Waldner]

I agree that you can’t get away from it. But you can minimize it and I wanted 
to provide what I thought is an interesting data point; the extent to which 
some engineers go to minimize it.

I doubt that they actually lines at those speeds. They use absolute encoders 
and likely just read the position on every control loop.

Seriously you can't get away from it.   With 40 million lines if the shaft
turns at 60 RPM or one revolution per second it is moving slow but the
total number of edges is 16 million per second and you could find hardware
fast enough but at 3,000 RPM it would be a lot harder.

The entire reason I brought up the subject is because people started
posting about shielding and star grounds.   That is not the kind of noise
we are talking about.  Quantization happens even in an electrically quiet
environment and results from design decisions made such as the sample
interval, number of lines of the sensor, and the rotation speed.  It gets
worse as you go slower.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:15 PM Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

>
> Okuma machine builders really don’t like quantization noise so they use 40
> million CPR encoders on the axis motors.
>
> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Quantization noise is fundamental and present in all digital systems.
> > There is absolutely no way to avoid it.  All you can do is minimize it.
> >
> > To know how fast a shaft is spinning or how far it moves, you have to
> count
> > edges and if you get 100 counts you just can not know if you are closer
> to
> > 100 or to 101 counts.  Basically the counter always rounds down even if
> at
> > 100.9 it tells you "100".So the cound is "wrong" 50% of the time.
> > This applies not only to encoders, but A/D converts and every other kind
> of
> > measurement.
> >
> > This is the nature of digital data, of representing the world  with a
> fixed
> > number of bits.
> >
> >> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 4:00 PM John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
> >> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks at
> >> edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B phasing
> you
> >> don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a bit level X
> times
> >> per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> >>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >>>
> >>> There are two kinds of noise,
> >>> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> >>> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here is
> >> that
> >>> the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given time.
> it
> >>> is just random luck when the time starts so on average there is a plus
> or
> >>> minus one count error.
> >>>
> >>> So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
> >>> encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per
> second.
> >>> This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error is a 2%
> >> error.
> >>>   You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds or with a lower
> >>> resolution encoder.
> >>>
> >>> So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
> >> noise
> >>> the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM range
> because
> >>> of unavoidable quantization error.
> >>>
> >>> The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
> >> DIGITAL
> >>> filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the wires will
> >> work.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> >>>>> electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> >>>>> through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side
> >> 5V
> >>>>> not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> >>>>> although the Pi4 d

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 June 2021 02:06:45 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Seriously you can't get away from it.   With 40 million lines if the
> shaft turns at 60 RPM or one revolution per second it is moving slow
> but the total number of edges is 16 million per second and you could
> find hardware fast enough but at 3,000 RPM it would be a lot harder.
>
> The entire reason I brought up the subject is because people started
> posting about shielding and star grounds.   That is not the kind of
> noise we are talking about.  Quantization happens even in an
> electrically quiet environment and results from design decisions made
> such as the sample interval, number of lines of the sensor, and the
> rotation speed.  It gets worse as you go slower.
>
Chris is spot on correct. Quantization noise is not electrical noise and 
never was. Its the combined effect of very few edges passing in a given 
sample period, phasing errors between the two signals, etc. If 3 edges 
pass in a sample period, and 4 in the next period, thats a huge error 
the pid will try to correct. The average speed will be maintained if the 
pid is properly tuned, but the motor itself may wind up getting full 
supply power for a millisecond, and virtually stopped by a 4 quadrant 
controller in the next millisecond, leading to noises from any gears 
with lash being violently slammed from one side of the lash to the oher. 
Been there, done that, sounded like the ball bearings in every bearing 
in the head have suddenly had their round balls replaced with cubes. 

I installed a very hi resolution encoder. Those same bearings I thought 
had square balls, cannot now be heard at 500 revs, and the Pgain went 
from 2.5 to 2500 before any sign of instability. My encoder SCALE went 
from 268 in high gear to a bit over 7000, and something over 14,000 in 
low gear. If I was to build a tool changer that needed the spindle 
oriented just so, I can do it, probably without a stop pawl as the servo 
could hold it while an impact wrench runs the drawbolt.

> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:15 PM Thaddeus Waldner  
wrote:
> > Okuma machine builders really don’t like quantization noise so they
> > use 40 million CPR encoders on the axis motors.
> >
> > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Chris Albertson
> > > 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Quantization noise is fundamental and present in all digital
> > > systems. There is absolutely no way to avoid it.  All you can do
> > > is minimize it.
> > >
> > > To know how fast a shaft is spinning or how far it moves, you have
> > > to
> >
> > count
> >
> > > edges and if you get 100 counts you just can not know if you are
> > > closer
> >
> > to
> >
> > > 100 or to 101 counts.  Basically the counter always rounds down
> > > even if
> >
> > at
> >
> > > 100.9 it tells you "100".So the cound is "wrong" 50% of
> > > the time. This applies not only to encoders, but A/D converts and
> > > every other kind
> >
> > of
> >
> > > measurement.
> > >
> > > This is the nature of digital data, of representing the world 
> > > with a
> >
> > fixed
> >
> > > number of bits.
> > >
> > >> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 4:00 PM John Dammeyer
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and
> > >> therefore doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but
> > >> instead looks at edges?  And because of the way quadrature works,
> > >> with the A/B phasing
> >
> > you
> >
> > >> don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a bit
> > >> level X
> >
> > times
> >
> > >> per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
> > >>
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >>> -Original Message-
> > >>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > >>> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> > >>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> > >>>
> > >>> There are two kinds of noise,
> > >>> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> > >>> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens
> > >>> here is
> > >>
> > >> that
> > >>
> > >>> the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given
> > >>> time.
> >
> > it
> >
> > >>> is just random luck when th

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 07:09, Chris Albertson  wrote:

>  Quantization happens even in an electrically quiet
> environment and results from design decisions made such as the sample
> interval, number of lines of the sensor, and the rotation speed.  It gets
> worse as you go slower.

I believe that the LinuxCNC encoder counters attempt to mitigate this
by timestamping the edges.
If you know that the first edge seen in the current period was seen at
time t1 and the last at time t2, and that there were 2 edges in the
period, then the speed estimate is (2 x scale) / (t2 - t1)
This should shift the quantisation noise down the internal sample
interval, rather than the encoder counting interval.
One source of noise that is not covered by this is any actual periodic
noise in the edge timing (ie, the mechanical quality of the encoder
disc)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Chris Albertson]

Seriously you can't get away from it.   With 40 million lines if the shaft
turns at 60 RPM or one revolution per second it is moving slow but the
total number of edges is 16 million per second and you could find hardware
fast enough but at 3,000 RPM it would be a lot harder.

The entire reason I brought up the subject is because people started
posting about shielding and star grounds.   That is not the kind of noise
we are talking about.  Quantization happens even in an electrically quiet
environment and results from design decisions made such as the sample
interval, number of lines of the sensor, and the rotation speed.  It gets
worse as you go slower.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:15 PM Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

>
> Okuma machine builders really don’t like quantization noise so they use 40
> million CPR encoders on the axis motors.
>
> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Quantization noise is fundamental and present in all digital systems.
> > There is absolutely no way to avoid it.  All you can do is minimize it.
> >
> > To know how fast a shaft is spinning or how far it moves, you have to
> count
> > edges and if you get 100 counts you just can not know if you are closer
> to
> > 100 or to 101 counts.  Basically the counter always rounds down even if
> at
> > 100.9 it tells you "100".So the cound is "wrong" 50% of the time.
> > This applies not only to encoders, but A/D converts and every other kind
> of
> > measurement.
> >
> > This is the nature of digital data, of representing the world  with a
> fixed
> > number of bits.
> >
> >> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 4:00 PM John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
> >> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks at
> >> edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B phasing
> you
> >> don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a bit level X
> times
> >> per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> >>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >>>
> >>> There are two kinds of noise,
> >>> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> >>> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here is
> >> that
> >>> the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given time.
> it
> >>> is just random luck when the time starts so on average there is a plus
> or
> >>> minus one count error.
> >>>
> >>> So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
> >>> encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per
> second.
> >>> This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error is a 2%
> >> error.
> >>>   You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds or with a lower
> >>> resolution encoder.
> >>>
> >>> So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
> >> noise
> >>> the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM range
> because
> >>> of unavoidable quantization error.
> >>>
> >>> The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
> >> DIGITAL
> >>> filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the wires will
> >> work.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> >>>>> electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> >>>>> through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side
> >> 5V
> >>>>> not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> >>>>> although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
> >>>>> pretty noisy encoder signal.
> >>>>
> >>>> You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are
> >

[Emc-users] Machining question

[Roland Jollivet]

I've worked with Fanuc robots,and was amazed to find that none of the
cables were shielded. The robot, with motors and encoders, is linked to the
control box with a 6m cable. All unshielded. Ok, the power and signal
cables are separate, but once installed, all extra cable is looped together
next to the control box.

A while back I stripped some Motoman robots. Internal on the arm, all the
motor wires, and encoder wires, are tightly bundled together. No shielding
on either.





On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 at 22:15, Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

>
> Okuma machine builders really don’t like quantization noise so they use 40
> million CPR encoders on the axis motors.
>
> > On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Quantization noise is fundamental and present in all digital systems.
> > There is absolutely no way to avoid it.  All you can do is minimize it.
> >
> > To know how fast a shaft is spinning or how far it moves, you have to
> count
> > edges and if you get 100 counts you just can not know if you are closer
> to
> > 100 or to 101 counts.  Basically the counter always rounds down even if
> at
> > 100.9 it tells you "100".So the cound is "wrong" 50% of the time.
> > This applies not only to encoders, but A/D converts and every other kind
> of
> > measurement.
> >
> > This is the nature of digital data, of representing the world  with a
> fixed
> > number of bits.
> >
> >> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 4:00 PM John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
> >> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks at
> >> edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B phasing
> you
> >> don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a bit level X
> times
> >> per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> >>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >>>
> >>> There are two kinds of noise,
> >>> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> >>> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here is
> >> that
> >>> the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given time.
> it
> >>> is just random luck when the time starts so on average there is a plus
> or
> >>> minus one count error.
> >>>
> >>> So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
> >>> encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per
> second.
> >>> This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error is a 2%
> >> error.
> >>>   You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds or with a lower
> >>> resolution encoder.
> >>>
> >>> So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
> >> noise
> >>> the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM range
> because
> >>> of unavoidable quantization error.
> >>>
> >>> The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
> >> DIGITAL
> >>> filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the wires will
> >> work.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> >>>>> electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> >>>>> through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side
> >> 5V
> >>>>> not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> >>>>> although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
> >>>>> pretty noisy encoder signal.
> >>>>
> >>>> You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are
> >>>> allowed anyplace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only
> >> connected
> >>&

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Thaddeus Waldner]

Okuma machine builders really don’t like quantization noise so they use 40 
million CPR encoders on the axis motors.

> On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> Quantization noise is fundamental and present in all digital systems.
> There is absolutely no way to avoid it.  All you can do is minimize it.
> 
> To know how fast a shaft is spinning or how far it moves, you have to count
> edges and if you get 100 counts you just can not know if you are closer to
> 100 or to 101 counts.  Basically the counter always rounds down even if at
> 100.9 it tells you "100".So the cound is "wrong" 50% of the time.
> This applies not only to encoders, but A/D converts and every other kind of
> measurement.
> 
> This is the nature of digital data, of representing the world  with a fixed
> number of bits.
> 
>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 4:00 PM John Dammeyer 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
>> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks at
>> edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B phasing you
>> don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a bit level X times
>> per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
>>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
>>> 
>>> There are two kinds of noise,
>>> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
>>> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here is
>> that
>>> the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given time.  it
>>> is just random luck when the time starts so on average there is a plus or
>>> minus one count error.
>>> 
>>> So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
>>> encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per second.
>>> This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error is a 2%
>> error.
>>>   You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds or with a lower
>>> resolution encoder.
>>> 
>>> So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
>> noise
>>> the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM range because
>>> of unavoidable quantization error.
>>> 
>>> The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
>> DIGITAL
>>> filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the wires will
>> work.
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
>>>>> electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
>>>>> through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side
>> 5V
>>>>> not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
>>>>> although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
>>>>> pretty noisy encoder signal.
>>>> 
>>>> You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
>>>> 
>>>> Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are
>>>> allowed anyplace.
>>>> 
>>>> Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only
>> connected
>>>> to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common line of any
>> power
>>>> supply is connected only to this bolt, and the common grounds to every
>>>> piece of pcb in the system comes from that bolt. The used to be green
>>>> static ground wire in any power cord is rerouted to this bolt. And
>>>> static grounds on a power supply are fed from this single bolt. Because
>>>> the psu case is usually bolted down wherever its at, you may have to
>>>> uncover the supply and remove any connection from the earth labeled
>>>> terminal, and the psu's case. It may be a screw in the corner of a pcb,
>>>> but it needs to be removed.
>>>> 
>>>> Anything connected to ground at some other point in addition to that
>> bolt
>>>> becomes an antenna, is called a ground loop, picking up both magnetic
>>>> and electrostatic nois

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Chris Albertson]

Quantization noise is fundamental and present in all digital systems.
There is absolutely no way to avoid it.  All you can do is minimize it.

To know how fast a shaft is spinning or how far it moves, you have to count
edges and if you get 100 counts you just can not know if you are closer to
100 or to 101 counts.  Basically the counter always rounds down even if at
100.9 it tells you "100".So the cound is "wrong" 50% of the time.
This applies not only to encoders, but A/D converts and every other kind of
measurement.

This is the nature of digital data, of representing the world  with a fixed
number of bits.

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 4:00 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks at
> edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B phasing you
> don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a bit level X times
> per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >
> > There are two kinds of noise,
> > 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> > 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here is
> that
> > the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given time.  it
> > is just random luck when the time starts so on average there is a plus or
> > minus one count error.
> >
> > So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
> > encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per second.
> >  This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error is a 2%
> error.
> >You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds or with a lower
> > resolution encoder.
> >
> > So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
> noise
> > the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM range because
> > of unavoidable quantization error.
> >
> > The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
> DIGITAL
> > filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the wires will
> work.
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > >
> > > > I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> > > > electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> > > > through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side
> 5V
> > > > not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> > > > although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
> > > > pretty noisy encoder signal.
> > >
> > > You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
> > >
> > > Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are
> > > allowed anyplace.
> > >
> > > Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only
> connected
> > > to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common line of any
> power
> > > supply is connected only to this bolt, and the common grounds to every
> > > piece of pcb in the system comes from that bolt. The used to be green
> > > static ground wire in any power cord is rerouted to this bolt. And
> > > static grounds on a power supply are fed from this single bolt. Because
> > > the psu case is usually bolted down wherever its at, you may have to
> > > uncover the supply and remove any connection from the earth labeled
> > > terminal, and the psu's case. It may be a screw in the corner of a pcb,
> > > but it needs to be removed.
> > >
> > > Anything connected to ground at some other point in addition to that
> bolt
> > > becomes an antenna, is called a ground loop, picking up both magnetic
> > > and electrostatic noises. I had to learn that the hard way while
> > > building the Sheldon, blowing two 7i90HD boards out by picking up 80
> > > volts p-p of switching noise that reached up to the bandwidth limits of
> > > both of my 100mhz scopes. Hell on an fpga with a 3 volt limit.  I
> killed
> > > the power and redid it to the single bolt model, and that 80 volts of
> > > noise was reduced to under 100 millivolts. Took me about a week to find
> > > all the 

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[John Dammeyer]

Haven't addressed noise issues by going fully differential yet or mucking with 
grounds and shields but the encoder feedback appears to be working and I've 
even run a tap cycle with all sorts of RPM and thread pitch.  Very cool.  What 
was driving me nuts was that it would stop at the G33.1 and wait.

More digging into old forum postings led me to this:
forum.linuxcnc.org/20-g-code/34936-rigid-tapping-help?start=20
Where Andy suggested checking if M3 has the encoder counting up and M4 counting 
down.  
I changed my encoder scale from 400 to -400 and now tapping works as expected.

On a different thread BigJohnT posted the python code to a dialog that sets up 
the parameters for tapping and generates the G-Code.
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/31-cad-cam/26859-mill-tapping-g-code-generator

He mentioned if using AXIS it can be called from within AXIS.

How does one do that?
Thanks
John



> -Original Message-
> From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> Sent: June-20-21 7:55 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> 
> On the Z for my Cinci I cheat by running the encoder off a small idler
> driven by the belt between the servo and the ball screw. Gets me about
> 5X number of counts. In more practical terms ~100K count/in. Encoders
> off the end of the ball screws are 40K/in.
> I pretty much standardize on Koyo 2500 cpr light duty encoders at about
> $90 a pop. Couplers are helicoil and I've lost a couple in 20 years of
> operation. Very careful alignment in mounting helps. Only way I know to
> do much better is to use the Fanuc 'red cap' encoders.
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 6/19/21 6:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 19 June 2021 18:57:42 John Dammeyer wrote:
> >
> >> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
> >> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks
> >> at edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B
> >> phasing you don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a
> >> bit level X times per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
> >>
> >> John
> > Sure the quadrature decoder is the best, but to avoid quantization noise,
> > it must count a large number of edges going by for each sample time it
> > records how many edges have gone by THIS time. My original home made
> > encoder wheel on the G0704 had 74 slots, which was about as fine as I
> > could machine in a 30 thou thick brass disk. Each slot had 2 edges, and
> > with the slot interruptors spaced to be about 90 degrees apart, that was
> > around 276 edges per revolution. So it was at 500 revs, and a 1 khz
> > sample rate, blessed with quantization noise such that it was hammering
> > the nylon gears, making it sound as if all the bearings had square balls
> > in them since the controller was slapping both faces of the gears trying
> > to do 600 revs on one sample and 400 revs on the next sample a
> > millisecond later.
> >
> > So I drilled and tapped the back of the motor shaft and fitted an
> > extension to drive a $20 1000 line encoder I got from fleabay.
> > quantization noise dissapeared, and I now have to look at the spindle to
> > see if its running, even at 500 revs, its dead silent. A 1/4-28 tap
> > bites into steel and I get no audible loading indication with a Pgain
> > above 1000 until Jons servo amp current limits at about 18 amps, making
> > the motor iron chirp.  On the old encoder, Pgain above 3 went crazy.
> >
> > Bottom line: within the limits of your bobs bandwidth, (by-pass the optos
> > in it) the more resolution you can put into the encoder, the smnoother
> > and quieter it will run. My SCALE_HIGH and SCALE_LOW are above 7100 and
> > 14300 per revolution. In either case, quantization noise is down in the
> > very closely cropped grass, very close to invisible on the halscope.
> >
> >
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> >>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >>>
> >>> There are two kinds of noise,
> >>> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> >>> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here
> >>> is that the computer counts the number of line crossings during a
> >>> given time.  it is just random luck when the time starts so on
> >>> average there is a plus or minus one count error.
> >>>
> >>> So a one count error sounds small but lets say we

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[dave engvall]

On the Z for my Cinci I cheat by running the encoder off a small idler 
driven by the belt between the servo and the ball screw. Gets me about 
5X number of counts. In more practical terms ~100K count/in. Encoders 
off the end of the ball screws are 40K/in.
I pretty much standardize on Koyo 2500 cpr light duty encoders at about 
$90 a pop. Couplers are helicoil and I've lost a couple in 20 years of 
operation. Very careful alignment in mounting helps. Only way I know to 
do much better is to use the Fanuc 'red cap' encoders.


Dave

On 6/19/21 6:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 19 June 2021 18:57:42 John Dammeyer wrote:


But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks
at edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B
phasing you don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a
bit level X times per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.

John

Sure the quadrature decoder is the best, but to avoid quantization noise,
it must count a large number of edges going by for each sample time it
records how many edges have gone by THIS time. My original home made
encoder wheel on the G0704 had 74 slots, which was about as fine as I
could machine in a 30 thou thick brass disk. Each slot had 2 edges, and
with the slot interruptors spaced to be about 90 degrees apart, that was
around 276 edges per revolution. So it was at 500 revs, and a 1 khz
sample rate, blessed with quantization noise such that it was hammering
the nylon gears, making it sound as if all the bearings had square balls
in them since the controller was slapping both faces of the gears trying
to do 600 revs on one sample and 400 revs on the next sample a
millisecond later.

So I drilled and tapped the back of the motor shaft and fitted an
extension to drive a $20 1000 line encoder I got from fleabay.
quantization noise dissapeared, and I now have to look at the spindle to
see if its running, even at 500 revs, its dead silent. A 1/4-28 tap
bites into steel and I get no audible loading indication with a Pgain
above 1000 until Jons servo amp current limits at about 18 amps, making
the motor iron chirp.  On the old encoder, Pgain above 3 went crazy.

Bottom line: within the limits of your bobs bandwidth, (by-pass the optos
in it) the more resolution you can put into the encoder, the smnoother
and quieter it will run. My SCALE_HIGH and SCALE_LOW are above 7100 and
14300 per revolution. In either case, quantization noise is down in the
very closely cropped grass, very close to invisible on the halscope.



-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

There are two kinds of noise,
1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here
is that the computer counts the number of line crossings during a
given time.  it is just random luck when the time starts so on
average there is a plus or minus one count error.

So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per
second. This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error
is a 2% error. You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds
or with a lower resolution encoder.

So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
noise the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM
range because of unavoidable quantization error.

The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
DIGITAL filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the
wires will work.

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett 

wrote:

On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:

I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a
lot of electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to
earth through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the
control side 5V not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind
of useless here) and although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any
trouble the scope shows a pretty noisy encoder signal.

You are about to learn the star ground system I think.

Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds
are allowed anyplace.

Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only
connected to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common
line of any power supply is connected only to this bolt, and the
common grounds to every piece of pcb in the system comes from that
bolt. The used to be green static ground wire in any power cord is
rerouted to this bolt. And static grounds on a power supply are
fed from this single bolt. Because the psu case is usually bolted
down wherever its at, you may have to uncover the supply and
remove any connection from the earth labeled terminal

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 June 2021 18:57:42 John Dammeyer wrote:

> But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore
> doesn't really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks
> at edges?  And because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B
> phasing you don't get the same types of errors compared to polling a
> bit level X times per second and trying to decide when it's high/low.
>
> John

Sure the quadrature decoder is the best, but to avoid quantization noise, 
it must count a large number of edges going by for each sample time it 
records how many edges have gone by THIS time. My original home made 
encoder wheel on the G0704 had 74 slots, which was about as fine as I 
could machine in a 30 thou thick brass disk. Each slot had 2 edges, and 
with the slot interruptors spaced to be about 90 degrees apart, that was 
around 276 edges per revolution. So it was at 500 revs, and a 1 khz 
sample rate, blessed with quantization noise such that it was hammering 
the nylon gears, making it sound as if all the bearings had square balls 
in them since the controller was slapping both faces of the gears trying 
to do 600 revs on one sample and 400 revs on the next sample a 
millisecond later.

So I drilled and tapped the back of the motor shaft and fitted an 
extension to drive a $20 1000 line encoder I got from fleabay. 
quantization noise dissapeared, and I now have to look at the spindle to 
see if its running, even at 500 revs, its dead silent. A 1/4-28 tap 
bites into steel and I get no audible loading indication with a Pgain 
above 1000 until Jons servo amp current limits at about 18 amps, making 
the motor iron chirp.  On the old encoder, Pgain above 3 went crazy.

Bottom line: within the limits of your bobs bandwidth, (by-pass the optos 
in it) the more resolution you can put into the encoder, the smnoother 
and quieter it will run. My SCALE_HIGH and SCALE_LOW are above 7100 and 
14300 per revolution. In either case, quantization noise is down in the 
very closely cropped grass, very close to invisible on the halscope.


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >
> > There are two kinds of noise,
> > 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> > 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here
> > is that the computer counts the number of line crossings during a
> > given time.  it is just random luck when the time starts so on
> > average there is a plus or minus one count error.
> >
> > So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
> > encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per
> > second. This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error
> > is a 2% error. You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds
> > or with a lower resolution encoder.
> >
> > So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical
> > noise the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM
> > range because of unavoidable quantization error.
> >
> > The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass
> > DIGITAL filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the
> > wires will work.
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a
> > > > lot of electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to
> > > > earth through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the
> > > > control side 5V not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind
> > > > of useless here) and although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any
> > > > trouble the scope shows a pretty noisy encoder signal.
> > >
> > > You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
> > >
> > > Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds
> > > are allowed anyplace.
> > >
> > > Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only
> > > connected to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common
> > > line of any power supply is connected only to this bolt, and the
> > > common grounds to every piece of pcb in the system comes from that
> > > bolt. The used to be green static ground wire in any power cord is
> > > rerouted to this bolt. And static grounds on a power supply are
> > > fed from this single bolt. Because the psu case is usually bolted
> > > down wherever its at, you m

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,
You are so absolutely 100% correct.   But this is a bench top test to try and 
figure how what parameters I need to set and work with for an encoder.  I don't 
even expect to be using this encoder or for that matter the Pi4.  But it makes 
a nice little test set.

And your comments about grounds are so dead on.  Something amusing.  When I was 
using the solid coupler the shaft of the encoder was connected to the motor 
shaft.  Noise jumped up.  The resistance between the encoder shaft and body is 
3K.  The encoder body is connected to the shield on the cable.  Touch the 
encoder body to the motor shaft or motor body and the noise doesn't go up on 
the signal wires.  

So the plastic coupler is a much better idea.  But I've broken all sorts of 
rules on the bench here.

Way back when I was upgrading a Trim & Form machine at Siemens in Regensburg 
Germany the electrical noise from adjacent equipment was so high I couldn't 
even find the CAN message on the bus.  This was before proper CAN drivers that 
were more immune.  Once we added differential ferrite cores to the signal wires 
which rounded the corners on the edges of the signals the electrical noise 
inside the electronics dropped low enough to no longer cause issues.


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: June-19-21 2:53 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> 
> On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> > electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> > through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side 5V
> > not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> > although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
> > pretty noisy encoder signal.
> 
> You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
> 
> Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are
> allowed anyplace.
> 
> Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only connected
> to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common line of any power
> supply is connected only to this bolt, and the common grounds to every
> piece of pcb in the system comes from that bolt. The used to be green
> static ground wire in any power cord is rerouted to this bolt. And
> static grounds on a power supply are fed from this single bolt. Because
> the psu case is usually bolted down wherever its at, you may have to
> uncover the supply and remove any connection from the earth labeled
> terminal, and the psu's case. It may be a screw in the corner of a pcb,
> but it needs to be removed.
> 
> Anything connected to ground at some other point in addition to that bolt
> becomes an antenna, is called a ground loop, picking up both magnetic
> and electrostatic noises. I had to learn that the hard way while
> building the Sheldon, blowing two 7i90HD boards out by picking up 80
> volts p-p of switching noise that reached up to the bandwidth limits of
> both of my 100mhz scopes. Hell on an fpga with a 3 volt limit.  I killed
> the power and redid it to the single bolt model, and that 80 volts of
> noise was reduced to under 100 millivolts. Took me about a week to find
> all the connections that should not have been made. Even a small bypass
> capacitor to a local ground instead of back to that bolt can become a
> lethal weapon to the elecronics.  Its a noise injector in that case.
> 
> The whole idea is to make the ground, if it bounces from a lightning
> strike on the can on the pole that powers your place, which may make the
> whole system bounce 100+ kilovolts, and if you are in that circuit at
> that instant it WILL get your attention. BUT, everything tied to that
> bolt should bounce in unison, meaning an individual board input will
> only see the difference signal its being fed with, and it should survive
> that lightning strike with no damage.
> 
> My soap box as a CET just collapsed, so I'll do an Andy Capp and shudup.
> 
> 
> > = HAL code ===
> > Second is some of the HAL parameters and reducing to 0.003 makes the
> > display more stable. #  Use ACTUAL spindle velocity from spindle
> > encoder
> > #  spindle-velocity bounces around so we filter it with lowpass
> > #  spindle-velocity is signed so we use absolute component to remove
> > sign #  ACTUAL velocity is in RPS not RPM so we scale it.
> >
> > setp scale.spindle.gain 60
> > setp lowpass.spindle.gain 0.003
> > net spindle-vel-fb-rps=> scale.spindle.in
> > net spindle-fb-rpm   scale.spindle.out   =>
> > 

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[John Dammeyer]

But doesn't the 7i92 FPGA deal with quadrature encoders and therefore doesn't 
really need to deal with a sampling process but instead looks at edges?  And 
because of the way quadrature works, with the A/B phasing you don't get the 
same types of errors compared to polling a bit level X times per second and 
trying to decide when it's high/low.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-19-21 3:21 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> 
> There are two kinds of noise,
> 1) electrical noise superimposed on the signal.
> 2) quantization noise from the sampling process.  What happens here is that
> the computer counts the number of line crossings during a given time.  it
> is just random luck when the time starts so on average there is a plus or
> minus one count error.
> 
> So a one count error sounds small but lets say we have a 600 count
> encoder and we are running at 500 RPM and sampling 100 times per second.
>  This works out to 50 counts per period.  a one count error is a 2% error.
>You will see a larger percent error at slower speeds or with a lower
> resolution encoder.
> 
> So even with perfect wires and perfect grounding and zero electrical noise
> the RPM speed is going to jump around randomly over a 4 RPM range because
> of unavoidable quantization error.
> 
> The solutions either the use a larger sample time apply a low-pass DIGITAL
> filter to the signal.  No amount of analog filters on the wires will work.
> 
> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 2:55 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> > On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> >
> > > I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> > > electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> > > through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side 5V
> > > not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> > > although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
> > > pretty noisy encoder signal.
> >
> > You are about to learn the star ground system I think.
> >
> > Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are
> > allowed anyplace.
> >
> > Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only connected
> > to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common line of any power
> > supply is connected only to this bolt, and the common grounds to every
> > piece of pcb in the system comes from that bolt. The used to be green
> > static ground wire in any power cord is rerouted to this bolt. And
> > static grounds on a power supply are fed from this single bolt. Because
> > the psu case is usually bolted down wherever its at, you may have to
> > uncover the supply and remove any connection from the earth labeled
> > terminal, and the psu's case. It may be a screw in the corner of a pcb,
> > but it needs to be removed.
> >
> > Anything connected to ground at some other point in addition to that bolt
> > becomes an antenna, is called a ground loop, picking up both magnetic
> > and electrostatic noises. I had to learn that the hard way while
> > building the Sheldon, blowing two 7i90HD boards out by picking up 80
> > volts p-p of switching noise that reached up to the bandwidth limits of
> > both of my 100mhz scopes. Hell on an fpga with a 3 volt limit.  I killed
> > the power and redid it to the single bolt model, and that 80 volts of
> > noise was reduced to under 100 millivolts. Took me about a week to find
> > all the connections that should not have been made. Even a small bypass
> > capacitor to a local ground instead of back to that bolt can become a
> > lethal weapon to the elecronics.  Its a noise injector in that case.
> >
> > The whole idea is to make the ground, if it bounces from a lightning
> > strike on the can on the pole that powers your place, which may make the
> > whole system bounce 100+ kilovolts, and if you are in that circuit at
> > that instant it WILL get your attention. BUT, everything tied to that
> > bolt should bounce in unison, meaning an individual board input will
> > only see the difference signal its being fed with, and it should survive
> > that lightning strike with no damage.
> >
> > My soap box as a CET just collapsed, so I'll do an Andy Capp and shudup.
> >
> >
> > > = HAL code ===
> > > Second is some of the HAL parameters and reducing to 0.003 makes the
> > > display more stable. #  Use ACTUAL spind

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Chris Albertson]

;
> > = HAL code ===
> > net spindle-vel-fb-rps => spindle-near-speed.in1
> > net spindle-ramped => spindle-near-speed.in2
> >
> > # ---Setup spindle at speed signals---
> > # the output from spindle-near-speed 'near' component is sent to
> > spindle.0.at-speed # and when this is true motion will start. The LED
> > in the pyvcp-panel.xml is renamed to be a LED. net
> > spindle-near-speed-led <= spindle-near-speed.out => spindle.0.at-speed
> > = end HAL code ===
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-19-21 2:48 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> > >
> > > On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 at 07:11, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > > > I'm finding the AXIS Spindle speed oscillates about +/- 5 RPM.   I
> > > > thought that I was filtering it.
> > >
> > > It generally needs to be filtered, but it is possible you are
> > > filtering it, but not enough to get a steady reading.
> > >
> > > For whatever reason encoder velocity does always seem to be a bit
> > > noisy, despite the counters using timetamped edges and all the other
> > > tricks that might help.
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 June 2021 12:59:19 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of
> electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth
> through power line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side 5V
> not isolated from the 'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and
> although the Pi4 doesn't appear to have any trouble the scope shows a
> pretty noisy encoder signal.

You are about to learn the star ground system I think.

Thats where all grounds go to a single bolt, and no other grounds are 
allowed anyplace.

Shielding in motor cables ends without touching the motor, only connected 
to this same single bolt which is grounded. The common line of any power 
supply is connected only to this bolt, and the common grounds to every 
piece of pcb in the system comes from that bolt. The used to be green 
static ground wire in any power cord is rerouted to this bolt. And 
static grounds on a power supply are fed from this single bolt. Because 
the psu case is usually bolted down wherever its at, you may have to 
uncover the supply and remove any connection from the earth labeled 
terminal, and the psu's case. It may be a screw in the corner of a pcb, 
but it needs to be removed. 

Anything connected to ground at some other point in addition to that bolt 
becomes an antenna, is called a ground loop, picking up both magnetic 
and electrostatic noises. I had to learn that the hard way while 
building the Sheldon, blowing two 7i90HD boards out by picking up 80 
volts p-p of switching noise that reached up to the bandwidth limits of 
both of my 100mhz scopes. Hell on an fpga with a 3 volt limit.  I killed 
the power and redid it to the single bolt model, and that 80 volts of 
noise was reduced to under 100 millivolts. Took me about a week to find 
all the connections that should not have been made. Even a small bypass 
capacitor to a local ground instead of back to that bolt can become a 
lethal weapon to the elecronics.  Its a noise injector in that case.

The whole idea is to make the ground, if it bounces from a lightning 
strike on the can on the pole that powers your place, which may make the 
whole system bounce 100+ kilovolts, and if you are in that circuit at 
that instant it WILL get your attention. BUT, everything tied to that 
bolt should bounce in unison, meaning an individual board input will 
only see the difference signal its being fed with, and it should survive 
that lightning strike with no damage.

My soap box as a CET just collapsed, so I'll do an Andy Capp and shudup.


> = HAL code ===
> Second is some of the HAL parameters and reducing to 0.003 makes the
> display more stable. #  Use ACTUAL spindle velocity from spindle
> encoder
> #  spindle-velocity bounces around so we filter it with lowpass
> #  spindle-velocity is signed so we use absolute component to remove
> sign #  ACTUAL velocity is in RPS not RPM so we scale it.
>
> setp scale.spindle.gain 60
> setp lowpass.spindle.gain 0.003
> net spindle-vel-fb-rps=> scale.spindle.in
> net spindle-fb-rpm   scale.spindle.out   =>  
> abs.spindle.in net spindle-fb-rpm-abs   abs.spindle.out   
>  =>   lowpass.spindle.in net spindle-fb-rpm-abs-filtered 
> lowpass.spindle.out
> = end HAL code ===
>
> But I'm still using the original signal for at speed and the LED never
> comes on nor does it know it's at speed.  I should probably be
> filtering the RPS rather than RPM I think?
>
> = HAL code ===
> net spindle-vel-fb-rps => spindle-near-speed.in1
> net spindle-ramped => spindle-near-speed.in2
>
> # ---Setup spindle at speed signals---
> # the output from spindle-near-speed 'near' component is sent to
> spindle.0.at-speed # and when this is true motion will start. The LED
> in the pyvcp-panel.xml is renamed to be a LED. net
> spindle-near-speed-led <= spindle-near-speed.out => spindle.0.at-speed
> = end HAL code ===
>
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: June-19-21 2:48 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >
> > On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 at 07:11, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > > I'm finding the AXIS Spindle speed oscillates about +/- 5 RPM.   I
> > > thought that I was filtering it.
> >
> > It generally needs to be filtered, but it is possible you are
> > filtering it, but not enough to get a steady reading.
> >
> > For whatever reason encoder velocity does always seem to be a bit
> > noisy, despite the counters using timetamped edges and all the

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[John Dammeyer]

I need to do a couple of things.  For one the AC Servo makes a lot of 
electrical noise.  The frame of the motor is connected to earth through power 
line ground.  But my bench setup has the control side 5V not isolated from the 
'PC' side (optos are kind of useless here) and although the Pi4 doesn't appear 
to have any trouble the scope shows a pretty noisy encoder signal.

= HAL code ===
Second is some of the HAL parameters and reducing to 0.003 makes the display 
more stable.
#  Use ACTUAL spindle velocity from spindle encoder
#  spindle-velocity bounces around so we filter it with lowpass
#  spindle-velocity is signed so we use absolute component to remove sign
#  ACTUAL velocity is in RPS not RPM so we scale it.

setp scale.spindle.gain 60
setp lowpass.spindle.gain 0.003
net spindle-vel-fb-rps=> scale.spindle.in
net spindle-fb-rpm   scale.spindle.out   =>   abs.spindle.in
net spindle-fb-rpm-abs   abs.spindle.out =>   lowpass.spindle.in
net spindle-fb-rpm-abs-filtered  lowpass.spindle.out  
= end HAL code ===

But I'm still using the original signal for at speed and the LED never comes on 
nor does it know it's at speed.  I should probably be filtering the RPS rather 
than RPM I think?

= HAL code ===
net spindle-vel-fb-rps => spindle-near-speed.in1
net spindle-ramped => spindle-near-speed.in2

# ---Setup spindle at speed signals---
# the output from spindle-near-speed 'near' component is sent to 
spindle.0.at-speed
# and when this is true motion will start. The LED in the pyvcp-panel.xml is 
renamed to be a LED.
net spindle-near-speed-led <= spindle-near-speed.out => spindle.0.at-speed
= end HAL code ===

John

> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-19-21 2:48 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> 
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 at 07:11, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > I'm finding the AXIS Spindle speed oscillates about +/- 5 RPM.   I thought 
> > that I was filtering it.
> 
> It generally needs to be filtered, but it is possible you are
> filtering it, but not enough to get a steady reading.
> 
> For whatever reason encoder velocity does always seem to be a bit
> noisy, despite the counters using timetamped edges and all the other
> tricks that might help.
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 June 2021 02:08:02 John Dammeyer wrote:

> So I settled for a 3D printed coupler.  All mounted it definitely
> vibrates less.  Enough so I can get back to the Pi4 LinuxCNC and
> spindle information.  I'm finding the AXIS Spindle speed oscillates
> about +/- 5 RPM.   I thought that I was filtering it.  The ramp
> feature works so the motor speeds up slowly as desired.

Why should it? Because I can do rigid tapping, the only reason to slow a 
motors response to a speed/direction change is to profile itsa change 
rates so Z can keep up. No other slowdowns allowed. My PMDC spindle on 
my G0704 can do a full reverse at 3000 rpms in about 400 milliseconds.  
So can TLM. The 1hp on my sheldon lathe is rigged for rigid tapping and 
can reverse a 35 lb 4 jaw chuck controlled by a clone vfd, with .25 
turns of overshoot at the turnaround point. The belts might yelp, but it 
gets it done.

> Before I start posting HAL and INI fragments can I get some feedback
> on others who report the encoder RPM on the display.  Does it jitter
> or is it rock solid?
>
I display rpms from the encoder if there is one, and only the tach on the 
sheldon has any wibbles, but they are created in the encoder due to 
uneven tooth wear on the bull gear, created by 50 some years of backgear 
way the hell and gone over engaged, causeing wear on the tooth profiles 
from banging the edges of the teeth against the bottoms of the backgear. 
This is the major cause of broken teeth on these gears in Sheldon lathes 
as the smaller tooth count is flexed by several ton of over engagement, 
breaking the tooth off from the flexing of the tooth at the base of the 
tooth. Because of this uneven wear on the gear profile being detected by 
the ats-667's I made the encoder from, the tach display has about a 5% 
jiggle.

And I went public with that on the Sheldon list as it appears this was 
the normal setting at Sheldon by someone in final assembly who was never 
schooled in the finer points of proper gear engagements.  If, with the 
backgear engaged, it rumbles, loosen the engagement by a couple thou. I 
don't use it that much with a vfd. Don't need it with the vfd.

> Maybe what I'm seeing is normal.  I'm used to seeing target RPM which
> of course doesn't change. Thanks
> John

As has been reported here, I put a 1000 line encoder on the g0704's 
motor, but the index still comes from the spindle. The original install 
had an elastomer coupling that eventually broke due to a slight 
miss-alignment, so its now driven for the last 2 years by a piece of 
heat shrink.  Works fine. And I run a Pgain in that PID well above 1000 
now.

> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: June-18-21 3:51 PM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> >
> > Andy's approach is what I had in mind.  Additionally I also made
> > sure that I turned the outside to be concentric with the inside.
> >
> > It's a very tight fit on the 14mm motor shaft.  And a firm fit on
> > the encoder shaft.  And still it wobbles.
> >
> > So out comes the dial indicator with the encoder clamped in the mill
> > vise.  At the top of the shaft the encoder shaft wobbles by 0.0125"
> > while just pushing on the shaft moves the indicator by 0.0005"
> >
> > Pushing my new coupler onto this measuring at the same shaft point
> > but on the coupler shows 0.00125" wobble.  Move and inch up into the
> > area of the 14mm hole and that wobble is exaggerated to 0.025"
> >
> > Now I know why I was given that $800 encoder over 10 years ago. 
> > Obviously taken out of service because it had been damaged.
> >
> > So time to rethink if I want to install a flex coupling instead. 
> > This is after all just for testing.  What I'm finding is the RPM
> > indication on the servo drive will read 101RPM but the display on
> > Axis is oscillating between 93 and 107RPM.  I don't know how much of
> > that is electrical noise  from the AC Servo and how much is due to
> > the wobble or if the motor really is bouncing around like that.
> >
> > Might be better to initially use the Servo Drive Encoder outputs. 
> > But then I have to wire up a 3 pair differential receiver.
> >
> > This will never end I think...
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: June-18-21 9:50 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> > >
> > > On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 at 16:52, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:
> > > > I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the wa

Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2021 at 07:11, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>
> I'm finding the AXIS Spindle speed oscillates about +/- 5 RPM.   I thought 
> that I was filtering it.

It generally needs to be filtered, but it is possible you are
filtering it, but not enough to get a steady reading.

For whatever reason encoder velocity does always seem to be a bit
noisy, despite the counters using timetamped edges and all the other
tricks that might help.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[John Dammeyer]

Andy's approach is what I had in mind.  Additionally I also made sure that I 
turned the outside to be concentric with the inside.  

It's a very tight fit on the 14mm motor shaft.  And a firm fit on the encoder 
shaft.  And still it wobbles.

So out comes the dial indicator with the encoder clamped in the mill vise.  At 
the top of the shaft the encoder shaft wobbles by 0.0125" while just pushing on 
the shaft moves the indicator by 0.0005"

Pushing my new coupler onto this measuring at the same shaft point but on the 
coupler shows 0.00125" wobble.  Move and inch up into the area of the 14mm hole 
and that wobble is exaggerated to 0.025"

Now I know why I was given that $800 encoder over 10 years ago.  Obviously 
taken out of service because it had been damaged.

So time to rethink if I want to install a flex coupling instead.  This is after 
all just for testing.  What I'm finding is the RPM indication on the servo 
drive will read 101RPM but the display on Axis is oscillating between 93 and 
107RPM.  I don't know how much of that is electrical noise  from the AC Servo 
and how much is due to the wobble or if the motor really is bouncing around 
like that.  

Might be better to initially use the Servo Drive Encoder outputs.  But then I 
have to wire up a 3 pair differential receiver.

This will never end I think...

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-18-21 9:50 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Machining question
> 
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 at 16:52, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through 
> > undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only
> use the boring tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 
> 14mm.
> 
> I would drill 8.5mm then bore all the way through to 3/8 for the fit I
> wanted on the encoder shaft.
> Then bore half way through to the 14mm testing the motor fit.
> The point is that you can machine the 3/8 first on the accessible side
> of the work, then machine half of it away.
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Cristian Bontas]

Hi

The way I see the picture, you have quite a few microns of play only in 
the roughness of the hole.


Using the screws that way amplifies the problem, as is pushes all the 
error to one side.


I think the best option is to buy an elastic coupling. Ideally one that 
fits both sizes, but just one and machining the other should work too.


But, if you want to do it in one piece. First, get as tight a fit as 
possible, without removing the piece from the chuck. Drill 8.5 - 9 mm, 
ream to 3/8'', expand half to 14 mm. Then either split it radially on 
one side and add a couple of tangential screws (so that is closes on the 
center, not one side), or put 3 screws at 120 deg on each shaft, and 
adjust until removing the runout.



On 6/18/2021 18:49, John Dammeyer wrote:

This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to 
machine something.
  
The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo Motor so I can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
  
This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and then used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the encoder shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway to 13mm and then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the motor shaft.
  
Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor job.  I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too large.  However the wobble seems much worse than that.
  
I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This way if the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would ensure it is.
  
Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
  
Thanks

John
  



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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[dave engvall]

It is not unusual for shaft mounted encoders to have some strain relief 
rather than a hard connection. see link.

https://www.shopcross.com/zo-.25bore-200ppr?msclkid=0c56646795e81faf9ef104ab7e98b74f_source=bing_medium=cpc_campaign=(ROI)%20Shopping%20-%20No%20Numbers_term=4586406598964502_content=Everything%20Else
YMMV

Dave

On 6/18/21 11:04 AM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

  Reamers can be some fun stuff. I hand reamed the spindle on a 1913 Sears Expert (made by South Bend, an 
"Old, reliable" manufacturer that was all of 4 years old back then) 14" metal lathe out to 
just over 3/4". The ends of the spindle bore were just a hair over 3/4" but in between was smaller 
and pretty rough. I wanted to have it able to pass a 3/4" diameter bar all the way through, so I made it 
happen, one small increment at a time.


 On Friday, June 18, 2021, 11:07:09 AM MDT, Gerrit Visser  
wrote:
  
  Reamers don't work well in nominal size holes. So always leave enough meat ofr it to do its work. The attached link gives good info on that topic.


Machine reamers cut on the leading edge only, there is no taper. Hand reamers 
have a taper, and won't cut to a shoulder.

If concentricity is the key goal, then drill well under size, bore to reamer 
alloance and then ream.

https://www.fltechnical.com/news/reamer-guide-basic-technical-information-for-reamers

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: June 18, 2021 11:49 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] Machining question

This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to 
machine something.
  
The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo Motor so I can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
  
This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and then used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the encoder shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway to 13mm and then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the motor shaft.
  
Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor job.  I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too large.  However the wobble seems much worse than that.
  
I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This way if the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would ensure it is.
  
Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
  
Thanks

John
   
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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

 Reamers can be some fun stuff. I hand reamed the spindle on a 1913 Sears 
Expert (made by South Bend, an "Old, reliable" manufacturer that was all of 4 
years old back then) 14" metal lathe out to just over 3/4". The ends of the 
spindle bore were just a hair over 3/4" but in between was smaller and pretty 
rough. I wanted to have it able to pass a 3/4" diameter bar all the way 
through, so I made it happen, one small increment at a time.


On Friday, June 18, 2021, 11:07:09 AM MDT, Gerrit Visser  
wrote:  
 
 Reamers don't work well in nominal size holes. So always leave enough meat ofr 
it to do its work. The attached link gives good info on that topic.

Machine reamers cut on the leading edge only, there is no taper. Hand reamers 
have a taper, and won't cut to a shoulder.

If concentricity is the key goal, then drill well under size, bore to reamer 
alloance and then ream.

https://www.fltechnical.com/news/reamer-guide-basic-technical-information-for-reamers

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: June 18, 2021 11:49 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] Machining question

This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to 
machine something.
 
The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo Motor so I 
can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
 
This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and then 
used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the encoder 
shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway to 13mm and 
then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the motor shaft.  
 
Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor job.  
I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too large.  However 
the wobble seems much worse than that.
 
I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through 
undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring 
tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This way if 
the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would ensure 
it is.
 
Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
 
Thanks
John
  
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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[johnd]

Mine is a used BEI encoder I was given more than 10 years ago. Digikey lists 
them at $800. For the sake of this Pi4 spindle testing I could just use the 
servo Amp encoder outputs scaled down by the drive. Would be easier. Sent from 
my Samsung S10
 Original message From: Chris Albertson 
 Date: 2021-06-18  9:48 a.m.  (GMT-08:00) To: 
"Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  Subject: 
Re: [Emc-users] Machining question By total coincidence, I am doing the exact 
same thing.  I just bought a 600line optical encoder and now I'm attaching it 
directly to a motor.  Thepurpose is to write and debug some control software.   
  In this case, IREALLY DO WANT to run at the encoder's maximum rated speed of 
5000 RPM, orelse what is the point of the test?BTW, this control software will 
run on the new Raspberry Pi "Pico" that isselling for $4 per unit.  It is a 
surprisingly powerful computer at a pricepoint close enough to "free" that it 
does not matter.   (Few people wouldcare much between paying $0 or paying $4.)  
I think this "Pico" should beable to run four motors and four encoders all at 
5000 RPM.  We shall see.On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 9:21 AM Stuart Stevenson 
 wrote:> Sounds like a good plan. Hopefully the testing 
won't involve high rpms so> the od not being perfectly concentric will not 
matter. The motor bearings> will handle it but maybe the encoder bearings won't 
be as robust.>> On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 10:52 AM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:>> > This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but 
more of an approach to how to> > machine something.> >> > The attached photo 
shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo> Motor> > so I can test on 
the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.> >> > This one didn't turn out 
very well.  I drilled all the way through and> > then used a reamer to bring it 
to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the> > encoder shaft.  Without removing it 
from the chuck I then drilled halfway> > to 13mm and then used a 14mm reamer to 
bring it to size, testing with the> > motor shaft.> >> > Problem was the reamer 
was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor> > job.  I finished it up 
with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too> > large.  However the wobble 
seems much worse than that.> >> > I'm thinking the better approach would be to 
drill all the way through> > undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  
Then only use the> boring> > tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the 
front up to 14mm.  This> way> > if the initial hole wasn't concentric with 
rotation the boring tool would> > ensure it is.> >> > Make sense?  Or is there 
a better way?> >> > Thanks> > John> >> > 
___> > Emc-users mailing list> > 
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > 
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users> >>> 
___> Emc-users mailing list> 
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> 
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users>-- Chris 
AlbertsonRedondo Beach, 
California___Emc-users mailing 
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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Gerrit Visser]

Reamers don't work well in nominal size holes. So always leave enough meat ofr 
it to do its work. The attached link gives good info on that topic.

Machine reamers cut on the leading edge only, there is no taper. Hand reamers 
have a taper, and won't cut to a shoulder.

If concentricity is the key goal, then drill well under size, bore to reamer 
alloance and then ream.

https://www.fltechnical.com/news/reamer-guide-basic-technical-information-for-reamers

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: June 18, 2021 11:49 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] Machining question

This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to 
machine something.
 
The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo Motor so I 
can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
 
This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and then 
used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the encoder 
shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway to 13mm and 
then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the motor shaft.  
 
Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor job.  
I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too large.  However 
the wobble seems much worse than that.
 
I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through 
undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring 
tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This way if 
the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would ensure 
it is.
 
Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
 
Thanks
John
 



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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 at 16:52, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through 
> undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring 
> tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.

I would drill 8.5mm then bore all the way through to 3/8 for the fit I
wanted on the encoder shaft.
Then bore half way through to the 14mm testing the motor fit.
The point is that you can machine the 3/8 first on the accessible side
of the work, then machine half of it away.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Chris Albertson]

By total coincidence, I am doing the exact same thing.  I just bought a 600
line optical encoder and now I'm attaching it directly to a motor.  The
purpose is to write and debug some control software. In this case, I
REALLY DO WANT to run at the encoder's maximum rated speed of 5000 RPM, or
else what is the point of the test?

BTW, this control software will run on the new Raspberry Pi "Pico" that is
selling for $4 per unit.  It is a surprisingly powerful computer at a price
point close enough to "free" that it does not matter.   (Few people would
care much between paying $0 or paying $4.)  I think this "Pico" should be
able to run four motors and four encoders all at 5000 RPM.  We shall see.

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 9:21 AM Stuart Stevenson  wrote:

> Sounds like a good plan. Hopefully the testing won't involve high rpms so
> the od not being perfectly concentric will not matter. The motor bearings
> will handle it but maybe the encoder bearings won't be as robust.
>
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 10:52 AM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
>
> > This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to
> > machine something.
> >
> > The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo
> Motor
> > so I can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
> >
> > This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and
> > then used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the
> > encoder shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway
> > to 13mm and then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the
> > motor shaft.
> >
> > Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor
> > job.  I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too
> > large.  However the wobble seems much worse than that.
> >
> > I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through
> > undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the
> boring
> > tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This
> way
> > if the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would
> > ensure it is.
> >
> > Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
> >
> > Thanks
> > John
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> ___
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Chris Albertson]

I think it is best to back up and look at the bigger picture.  Solid
couplers are almost never the way to go.   Or if you do use a solid couple
the motor or encoders needs to be mounted with rubber bushings.I
shouldn't be 100% solid.

Buy one of these, then bore of one of the holes for the larger shaft.
aliexpress.com/item/1005002515369464.html


That said, I've made couplers and I think as long as you do all the
drilling and boring *without ever removing the part* from the chuck it is
as concentric as your lathe can make it.You get better results using
shorter drill bits.

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 8:52 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to
> machine something.
>
> The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo Motor
> so I can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
>
> This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and
> then used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the
> encoder shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway
> to 13mm and then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the
> motor shaft.
>
> Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor
> job.  I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too
> large.  However the wobble seems much worse than that.
>
> I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through
> undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring
> tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This way
> if the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would
> ensure it is.
>
> Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
> ___
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>


-- 

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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Machining question

[Stuart Stevenson]

Sounds like a good plan. Hopefully the testing won't involve high rpms so
the od not being perfectly concentric will not matter. The motor bearings
will handle it but maybe the encoder bearings won't be as robust.

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 10:52 AM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> This isn't as much a LinuxCNC question but more of an approach to how to
> machine something.
>
> The attached photo shows a coupler from a 3/8" encoder to 14mm Servo Motor
> so I can test on the bench the Pi4 closed loop encoder behavior.
>
> This one didn't turn out very well.  I drilled all the way through and
> then used a reamer to bring it to 3/8".  It's a firm sliding fit on the
> encoder shaft.  Without removing it from the chuck I then drilled halfway
> to 13mm and then used a 14mm reamer to bring it to size, testing with the
> motor shaft.
>
> Problem was the reamer was slightly tapered at the front so it did a poor
> job.  I finished it up with the boring tool but maybe a few thou too
> large.  However the wobble seems much worse than that.
>
> I'm thinking the better approach would be to drill all the way through
> undersize 3/8" and then drill half way with 13mm.  Then only use the boring
> tool to bring the back half up to 3/8" and the front up to 14mm.  This way
> if the initial hole wasn't concentric with rotation the boring tool would
> ensure it is.
>
> Make sense?  Or is there a better way?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> 
> For me this was a good example.  I wanted to write a userspace
> pendent interface.  Assuming you have created a pin object as "h", the
> pin's input is read as h.in and you can set h.out to set the output.   The
> link below is a sample program that copies a pin's input to its output.  So
> it shows both reading and writing.
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/halmodule.html#_driving_bidirectional_hal_io_pins
> 

The key thing is the python hal component.  
Do you know where the source code is for that?
John

> On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 3:41 PM  wrote:
> 
> > With the great help on list and off I'm having some progress.
> >
> > When debugging it is very convenient to be able to run a program in a
> > terminal window. Doing so immediately shows syntax errors. The program can
> > talk to an Arduino listening on a USB simulated serial port and can create
> > pins that can be displayed or set in halcmd. A ctrl-C closes things. The
> > only remaining problem is that I have not found a way to read values from
> > existing HAL pins in order to get axis positions and other useful
> > information. Halcmd and other programs can display the value of any pin. Is
> > reading pins created by another program not supported in python or am I
> > just missing a vital incantation?
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[Chris Albertson]

For me this was a good example.  I wanted to write a userspace
pendent interface.  Assuming you have created a pin object as "h", the
pin's input is read as h.in and you can set h.out to set the output.   The
link below is a sample program that copies a pin's input to its output.  So
it shows both reading and writing.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/halmodule.html#_driving_bidirectional_hal_io_pins

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 3:41 PM  wrote:

> With the great help on list and off I'm having some progress.
>
> When debugging it is very convenient to be able to run a program in a
> terminal window. Doing so immediately shows syntax errors. The program can
> talk to an Arduino listening on a USB simulated serial port and can create
> pins that can be displayed or set in halcmd. A ctrl-C closes things. The
> only remaining problem is that I have not found a way to read values from
> existing HAL pins in order to get axis positions and other useful
> information. Halcmd and other programs can display the value of any pin. Is
> reading pins created by another program not supported in python or am I
> just missing a vital incantation?
>
>
>
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>


-- 

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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[John Dammeyer]

Quick question.  On the MDI screen in Axis does the HALUI connection set the 
Active G-Codes: field with a reply?

So if an M7 is sent M7 shows up.  If an M8 is sent the M8 shows up.  And if 
both coolants are switched off with the M9 we see the M7 M8 vanish and replaced 
with M9.  
The 
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#mcode:m7-m8-m9
Says that these are linked directly to the iocontrol.0.coolant-mist or flood 
pins.

I'm asking because again on the User control screen we can switch the spindle 
on and change the speed but the Sx and Mx values don't show up in the Active 
G-Codes.

So it's like the user screen has a back door into LinuxCNC different from the 
G/M codes.  And that's why we have that override issue where spindle is turning 
from the user screen but no M3/4 in effect so when an S1000 is issued on the 
MDI the spindle stops.  Which is correct but I question then the user screen 
and how it's done.

In a way I understand.  After all there isn't a G code for jogging an axis.  

But the Coolant check boxes work differently again suggesting the Active 
G-Codes: list is upated whenever an MDI command is sent.  Give this a try to 
see what I mean.
In the AXIS screen check both Flood and Mist.  Then go to the MDI screen.  Note 
the Active G-Codes still says M9.
Now on the command screen enter an M7 to turn on MIST.   Go back to the MDI 
screen.  Notice the M9 is gone but there's both an M7 and an M8.  So it appears 
to be correctly reporting two outputs.  The M7 on an already on M7 doesn't 
change anything.

So then we're back to this spindle issue.  If the spindle is turning clockwise 
at 500 RPM from the command window and an S1000 is issued from the MDI then 
shouldn't the reported status back from the lower level state that there is an 
M3 in process and S is now 1000.

That would be more consistent.

Thanks
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[ken.strauss]

With the great help on list and off I'm having some progress.

When debugging it is very convenient to be able to run a program in a terminal 
window. Doing so immediately shows syntax errors. The program can talk to an 
Arduino listening on a USB simulated serial port and can create pins that can 
be displayed or set in halcmd. A ctrl-C closes things. The only remaining 
problem is that I have not found a way to read values from existing HAL pins in 
order to get axis positions and other useful information. Halcmd and other 
programs can display the value of any pin. Is reading pins created by another 
program not supported in python or am I just missing a vital incantation?



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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[John Dammeyer]

Thanks Andy,
I'll check into that.  I've attached two screen shots of an app I put together 
in just over a half hour.  Mostly trying to remember how to do certain things. 

Press the buttons on the user screen and the Active GCodes are updated.  A 
total of 98 lines of code including blank lines between each function.  Trivial 
really.   Written on WIN-10 PC.  Compiled on PC. Running on PC.  But, project 
can be copied onto Pi4 with LinuxCNC or a desktop with LinuxCNC and compiled 
there for that target.  Write once, compile anywhere.

There is a function 'UdateOptionsList' that updates the Active GCodes.  This 
would be the place where the LinuxCNC system is updated with the M3 and S500 
(and any other M,G commands in the list) after a user clicked the + button.  Or 
entered something from the MDI line.

Your code link shows
static RCS_CMD_CHANNEL *emcCommandBuffer = 0;
as a method of sending information to LinuxCNC.

Defined in /cmd_msg.hh
But as yet I've not figured out how it gets from there into LinuxCNC.  
Something to do with the NML.
More work required.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: December-16-20 2:58 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 06:29, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc
> > It uses sockets in that file which implies this is how communications is 
> > done.
> 
> Not normally. emcrsh is an "add on" interface for communicating with
> remote LinuxCNC systems.
> 
> halui is probably a better example of how to control LinuxCNC from C / C++
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 06:29, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc
> It uses sockets in that file which implies this is how communications is done.

Not normally. emcrsh is an "add on" interface for communicating with
remote LinuxCNC systems.

halui is probably a better example of how to control LinuxCNC from C / C++
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[Frank Tkalcevic]

The sockets part is for the "rsh" remote shell interface - the UI is a
command line interface.  The big comment at the beginning of the file shows
the text command list - eg for spindle commands - spindle (none) | forward |
reverse | increase | decrease | constant | off

As for searching, I normally just used the linux command line tools on my
cloned copy of the linuxcnc repository - find, grep, etc.
On the github webpage, there is a "Search or jump to..."  field in the top
left corner that allows you to search.  sendSpindleIncrease appears a couple
of times - the one you want is in shcom.cc

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 5:27 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

Ah.
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc
It uses sockets in that file which implies this is how communications is
done.  

But as usual, the code is quite vague.  For example there's this function.
static cmdResponseType setSpindle(char *s, connectionRecType *context) {

And inside the function 
switch (checkSpindleStr(s)) {
 case -1: return rtStandardError;
 case 0: sendSpindleForward(spindle); break;

and a few more cases.
So where is sendSpindleForward(spindle) ?

Is there a way to search for "sendSpindleForward" to find out if it's a
MACRO or a function that formats the message to go to the socket?

Thanks
John



> -Original Message-
> From: Frank Tkalcevic [mailto:fr...@franksworkshop.com.au]
> Sent: December-15-20 9:48 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> If you look at the axis source code, to increment the spindle you call...
> 
> c.spindle(linuxcnc.SPINDLE_INCREASE)
> 
> where
> 
> c = linuxcnc.command()
> 
> 
> linuxcnc.command() comes from halui.cc (I think), which sends a message...
> 
> static int sendSpindleIncrease(int spindle)
> {
> EMC_SPINDLE_INCREASE emc_spindle_increase_msg;
> emc_spindle_increase_msg.spindle = spindle;
> return emcCommandSend(emc_spindle_increase_msg);
> }
> 
> So, to invoke an action, you are actually sending a message to linuxcnc,
not just settings  a pin.  Status information, like spindle speed,
> for example, come from the status message, which is also exposed via halui
for python.
> 
> There are examples, like linuxcnc/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc, which do
this in C++.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 3:59 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> Let's say you wanted to access the hal pins and essentially run the
machine using a different programming language like C instead of
> python.
> 
> How's the linkage done from say the Axis GUI to the rest of the system?
Like Spindle ON button and then Spindle +
> 
> John
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-----
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: December-15-20 5:15 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:10,  wrote:
> > >
> > > Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?
> >
> > I think you just need to "import linuxcnc" to get access to linuxcnc
> > command and state.
> >
> > But you would probably still need to create and net hal pins to get
> > values from hal.
> >
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[John Dammeyer]

Ah.
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc
It uses sockets in that file which implies this is how communications is done.  

But as usual, the code is quite vague.  For example there's this function.
static cmdResponseType setSpindle(char *s, connectionRecType *context) {

And inside the function 
switch (checkSpindleStr(s)) {
 case -1: return rtStandardError;
 case 0: sendSpindleForward(spindle); break;

and a few more cases.
So where is sendSpindleForward(spindle) ?

Is there a way to search for "sendSpindleForward" to find out if it's a MACRO 
or a function that formats the message to go to the socket?

Thanks
John



> -Original Message-
> From: Frank Tkalcevic [mailto:fr...@franksworkshop.com.au]
> Sent: December-15-20 9:48 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> If you look at the axis source code, to increment the spindle you call...
> 
> c.spindle(linuxcnc.SPINDLE_INCREASE)
> 
> where
> 
> c = linuxcnc.command()
> 
> 
> linuxcnc.command() comes from halui.cc (I think), which sends a message...
> 
> static int sendSpindleIncrease(int spindle)
> {
> EMC_SPINDLE_INCREASE emc_spindle_increase_msg;
> emc_spindle_increase_msg.spindle = spindle;
> return emcCommandSend(emc_spindle_increase_msg);
> }
> 
> So, to invoke an action, you are actually sending a message to linuxcnc, not 
> just settings  a pin.  Status information, like spindle speed,
> for example, come from the status message, which is also exposed via halui 
> for python.
> 
> There are examples, like linuxcnc/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc, which do this 
> in C++.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 3:59 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> Let's say you wanted to access the hal pins and essentially run the machine 
> using a different programming language like C instead of
> python.
> 
> How's the linkage done from say the Axis GUI to the rest of the system?  Like 
> Spindle ON button and then Spindle +
> 
> John
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: December-15-20 5:15 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:10,  wrote:
> > >
> > > Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?
> >
> > I think you just need to "import linuxcnc" to get access to linuxcnc
> > command and state.
> >
> > But you would probably still need to create and net hal pins to get
> > values from hal.
> >
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[Frank Tkalcevic]

If you look at the axis source code, to increment the spindle you call...

c.spindle(linuxcnc.SPINDLE_INCREASE)

where 

c = linuxcnc.command()


linuxcnc.command() comes from halui.cc (I think), which sends a message...

static int sendSpindleIncrease(int spindle)
{
EMC_SPINDLE_INCREASE emc_spindle_increase_msg;
emc_spindle_increase_msg.spindle = spindle;
return emcCommandSend(emc_spindle_increase_msg);
}

So, to invoke an action, you are actually sending a message to linuxcnc, not 
just settings  a pin.  Status information, like spindle speed, for example, 
come from the status message, which is also exposed via halui for python.

There are examples, like linuxcnc/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc, which do this in 
C++.



-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 3:59 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

Let's say you wanted to access the hal pins and essentially run the machine 
using a different programming language like C instead of python.  

How's the linkage done from say the Axis GUI to the rest of the system?  Like 
Spindle ON button and then Spindle +

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: December-15-20 5:15 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:10,  wrote:
> >
> > Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?
> 
> I think you just need to "import linuxcnc" to get access to linuxcnc
> command and state.
> 
> But you would probably still need to create and net hal pins to get
> values from hal.
> 
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[John Dammeyer]

Let's say you wanted to access the hal pins and essentially run the machine 
using a different programming language like C instead of python.  

How's the linkage done from say the Axis GUI to the rest of the system?  Like 
Spindle ON button and then Spindle +

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: December-15-20 5:15 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:10,  wrote:
> >
> > Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?
> 
> I think you just need to "import linuxcnc" to get access to linuxcnc
> command and state.
> 
> But you would probably still need to create and net hal pins to get
> values from hal.
> 
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[ken.strauss]

Tormach installs their stuff into a directory named for the current version
of Pathpilot and then creates a link to it from ~/tmc  With help from a very
knowledgeable Tormach user I learned that if you enter:

cd ~/tmc
source ./scripts/rip-environment.sh

you can then run halcmd in a terminal window

Thanks for the hint!

-Original Message-
From: Frank Tkalcevic  
Sent: December 15, 2020 8:46 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

I run in-place, so I run...

. $EMC_HOME/scripts/rip-environment

Before each run.

If you are running PathPilot, I'm guessing your distribution is from
Tormach, so the environment variables may already be set up.  

Just try it.  If it doesn't work, you should get error messages.



-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 12:08 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?

-Original Message-
From: Frank Tkalcevic 
Sent: December 15, 2020 6:51 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

As long as the environment variables are set up correctly, you should just
be able to run the python app from the command line without "halcmd
loadusr".


-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 7:54 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: [Emc-users] Python question

I somewhat understand writing a Python program that reads/writes HAL pins
and starting it with halcmd loadusr. Is it possible to start a Python
program from a terminal window and access HAL pins without using halcmd? If
yes, what is the magic incantation? I ask because PathPilot does not appear
to include halcmd.



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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[Frank Tkalcevic]

I run in-place, so I run...

. $EMC_HOME/scripts/rip-environment

Before each run.

If you are running PathPilot, I'm guessing your distribution is from
Tormach, so the environment variables may already be set up.  

Just try it.  If it doesn't work, you should get error messages.



-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 12:08 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?

-Original Message-
From: Frank Tkalcevic  
Sent: December 15, 2020 6:51 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

As long as the environment variables are set up correctly, you should just
be able to run the python app from the command line without "halcmd
loadusr".


-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 7:54 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: [Emc-users] Python question

I somewhat understand writing a Python program that reads/writes HAL pins
and starting it with halcmd loadusr. Is it possible to start a Python
program from a terminal window and access HAL pins without using halcmd? If
yes, what is the magic incantation? I ask because PathPilot does not appear
to include halcmd.



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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 01:10,  wrote:
>
> Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?

I think you just need to "import linuxcnc" to get access to linuxcnc
command and state.

But you would probably still need to create and net hal pins to get
values from hal.


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[ken.strauss]

Are the necessary environment variables document somewhere?

-Original Message-
From: Frank Tkalcevic  
Sent: December 15, 2020 6:51 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Python question

As long as the environment variables are set up correctly, you should just
be able to run the python app from the command line without "halcmd
loadusr".


-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 7:54 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: [Emc-users] Python question

I somewhat understand writing a Python program that reads/writes HAL pins
and starting it with halcmd loadusr. Is it possible to start a Python
program from a terminal window and access HAL pins without using halcmd? If
yes, what is the magic incantation? I ask because PathPilot does not appear
to include halcmd.



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Re: [Emc-users] Python question

[Frank Tkalcevic]

As long as the environment variables are set up correctly, you should just
be able to run the python app from the command line without "halcmd
loadusr".


-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December 2020 7:54 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: [Emc-users] Python question

I somewhat understand writing a Python program that reads/writes HAL pins
and starting it with halcmd loadusr. Is it possible to start a Python
program from a terminal window and access HAL pins without using halcmd? If
yes, what is the magic incantation? I ask because PathPilot does not appear
to include halcmd.



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[Emc-users] Python question

[ken.strauss]

I somewhat understand writing a Python program that reads/writes HAL pins and 
starting it with halcmd loadusr. Is it possible to start a Python program from 
a terminal window and access HAL pins without using halcmd? If yes, what is the 
magic incantation? I ask because PathPilot does not appear to include halcmd.



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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

Yes it will be cool.  Linuxcnc is absolutely amazing!

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 1:53 AM Mark  wrote:

> On 11/22/20 12:29 AM, andrew beck wrote:
>
> > Thanks Mark.  Yes pretty blessed here.
> >
> > Feel almost like Tommy.  Just keep buying machines lol.  But retrofits
> are
> > fun and they pay for themselves on the first few jobs so why not.  I
> want a
> > horizontal cnc mill now that I can turn into a full 5 axis with rotating
> > head and 4th axis on the table.  That would be cool.
> >
> > And it would be cool to explore the possibility of linuxcnc controlling a
> > dual spindle lathe in the future.
> >
> That'll make for one nice workshop.  You should be able to take on
> pretty much any job that'll fit in your work environment.  Good to see
> the old iron being put back to work with a modern controller.  Good luck
> in your endeavours!
>
> Mark
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[Mark]

On 11/22/20 12:29 AM, andrew beck wrote:


Thanks Mark.  Yes pretty blessed here.

Feel almost like Tommy.  Just keep buying machines lol.  But retrofits are
fun and they pay for themselves on the first few jobs so why not.  I want a
horizontal cnc mill now that I can turn into a full 5 axis with rotating
head and 4th axis on the table.  That would be cool.

And it would be cool to explore the possibility of linuxcnc controlling a
dual spindle lathe in the future.

That'll make for one nice workshop.  You should be able to take on 
pretty much any job that'll fit in your work environment.  Good to see 
the old iron being put back to work with a modern controller.  Good luck 
in your endeavours!


Mark



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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

Thanks Mark.  Yes pretty blessed here.

Feel almost like Tommy.  Just keep buying machines lol.  But retrofits are
fun and they pay for themselves on the first few jobs so why not.  I want a
horizontal cnc mill now that I can turn into a full 5 axis with rotating
head and 4th axis on the table.  That would be cool.

And it would be cool to explore the possibility of linuxcnc controlling a
dual spindle lathe in the future.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 2:18 AM Mark  wrote:

> Got some nice toys there Andrew!
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/20/20 5:51 PM, andrew beck wrote:
> > awesome yep that is the plan
> >
> > for those that are interested here is a quick update video on the
> progress
> > today after all the emails
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JXQkm9tgWQ=youtu.be
> >
> > Gene if you can watch youtube you can see my machines in it.  I do a
> > overview of the shed
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also
> >> I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
> >> firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
> >> That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
> >> file in the firmware pack.
> >> ( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )
> >>
> >>> and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works
> ok
> >>> any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way
> >> Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
> >> and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
> >> (I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
> >> is, and which wire goes where)
> >>
> >> --
> >> atp
> >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> >> lunatics."
> >> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

Yes I wondered that Andy.

Pncconf only had options for the 7i77 on first header. So I used that one.

Regards
Andrew

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 12:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck 
> wrote:
>
> > Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also
>
> I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
> firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
> That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
> file in the firmware pack.
> ( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )
>
> > and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok
> > any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way
>
> Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
> and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
> (I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
> is, and which wire goes where)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

I got it lol before anyone takes the time to help me out..  I better post
back that I have sussed it.

I was using a ethernet patch cable and the wires were swapped.  I found out
which ones changed them and can see the 7i84 now

regards

Andrew

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 7:19 AM andrew beck 
wrote:

> hey guys
>
> having trouble setting up 7i84 now.
>
> so I have a set up with a 6i25 and 7i77, 7i76 connected
>
> I am trying to connect up the 7i84 to the tb6 connector on the 7i77.
>
> I have the bit file 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit loaded into card
>
> just getting stuck now.
>
> 7i84 doesn't load up.  jumpers are both left hand side which is default.
>
> I am looking for the 7i84 in the hal configuration and can't find it
> there is a sserial drop down menu but it doesn't show the 7i84
>
> I am pretty sure I have it connected up.  before I go back and check my
> wiring I just better ask is there anything software related that could be
> messing me up?
>
> I have 24v powering the 7i84.  and the CR6 led (field IO error led)  is
> showing red.  based on my research this could be because the watchdog is
> not petting it or could be a deeper problem.
>
> anyway any ideas sing out  I am stuck lol.
>
>
> the first time I do anything on cnc it takes ages lol  the second time it
> all takes 10 mins
>
> regards
>
> Andrew
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also
>>
>> I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
>> firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
>> That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
>> file in the firmware pack.
>> ( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )
>>
>> > and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok
>> > any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way
>>
>> Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
>> and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
>> (I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
>> is, and which wire goes where)
>>
>> --
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>> lunatics."
>> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

hey guys

having trouble setting up 7i84 now.

so I have a set up with a 6i25 and 7i77, 7i76 connected

I am trying to connect up the 7i84 to the tb6 connector on the 7i77.

I have the bit file 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit loaded into card

just getting stuck now.

7i84 doesn't load up.  jumpers are both left hand side which is default.

I am looking for the 7i84 in the hal configuration and can't find it  there
is a sserial drop down menu but it doesn't show the 7i84

I am pretty sure I have it connected up.  before I go back and check my
wiring I just better ask is there anything software related that could be
messing me up?

I have 24v powering the 7i84.  and the CR6 led (field IO error led)  is
showing red.  based on my research this could be because the watchdog is
not petting it or could be a deeper problem.

anyway any ideas sing out  I am stuck lol.


the first time I do anything on cnc it takes ages lol  the second time it
all takes 10 mins

regards

Andrew

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck 
> wrote:
>
> > Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also
>
> I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
> firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
> That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
> file in the firmware pack.
> ( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )
>
> > and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok
> > any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way
>
> Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
> and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
> (I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
> is, and which wire goes where)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 21 November 2020 04:09:24 andrew beck wrote:

> ok just did some more testing
>
> I have two 7i76 cards connected up now and everything works  (using
> second connector on 5i25 for extra 7i76)
>
> I am wondering if I have broken the 7i77 I have which I ran 5v
> backwards through.
>
> is this possible to do and if it is would I expect a communication
> error as a result of it?

Yes, and yes. Particularly if the supply is a stout one. A 5 volt 5 amp 
like I run my rpi4 with worries me as it can destroy quite a bit of 
stuff. I use 12 volt field power but those switchers go into overload 
shut down at about 2 amps. Even that is enough to cook things if 
something goes aglay.

> If I have broken it that would be a bit sad haha

Considering the cost of a 7i77, I'd terminate the above with a frownie.

[...]

Cheers Andrew, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[Mark]

Got some nice toys there Andrew!

Mark

On 11/20/20 5:51 PM, andrew beck wrote:

awesome yep that is the plan

for those that are interested here is a quick update video on the progress
today after all the emails

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JXQkm9tgWQ=youtu.be

Gene if you can watch youtube you can see my machines in it.  I do a
overview of the shed

regards

Andrew

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:


On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck 
wrote:


Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also

I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
file in the firmware pack.
( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )


and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok
any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way

Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
(I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
is, and which wire goes where)

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 21 November 2020 03:40:08 andrew beck wrote:

> ok just did some testing
>
> when I flash the 5i25 with this 5i25_7i76x2.bit file it all works fine
>
> this is just with the 7i76 connected up
>
> when I try to connect up the 7i77 and flash this bit file
> (5i25_7i76_7i77.bit)  into the 5i25 I get a issue
>
> the 7i77 is coming up with a red led though in CR16  I read in the
> manual that this goes red when there is a communication error with
> 5i25.
>
> now I have just discovered that I powered the 7i77 with 5v and had the
> polarity wrong so was trying to send -5v into 7i77.  I may have
> stuffed it I suppose.  all the jumpered are set correctly but I may
> have created a problem for myself

I think it may have some protection against reversed polarity, but don't 
quote me. The minus sign on lots of dvms gets hard to see when the 
window gets scratched up. I've not knowingly tested that. Read the pdf 
docs from Mesa, it should be noted if it has some reverse protection.

> any thoughts or ideas sing out.
>
> I have another brand new 7i77 I will try now and just see if that one
> works.

Good idea, you can test it for sseriel com without having to hook up any 
i/o, just the cable from the5i25 and if not powering from the 5i25, the 
+5 volts.

Its why I buy 3 cards if I'm going to use two. My wiring practices 
haven't always been as neat as they should be. While working on the 
contact holefinder, I was bitching, on this list, about the epoxy paint 
making very iffy grounds, but I found the heavy braided strap that 
supposedly grounds the frame of the 6040 to the electrical ground bar, 
didn't quite reach the ground bar. It had come unplugged from the tunnel 
type screw terminal and was just laying there about 2" away. That was 
all built while standing on the top step of a 4 foot stepladder as all 
its electrics are on a 2x4 shelf hanging from the ceiling on plumbers 
friend above the 6040. And nobody my age, 86, has any business that far 
up on a ladder. That is what folks keep telling me, for my own safety of 
course. :)

With the shack gone, I've been reduced to making simple boards on the 
milling machine. That works, but tends not to be adequately documented 
by me, leading to what the heck was I doing there? questions 2 or 3 
years later. The little one power v-fet board that runs the mister pump 
on the 6040 is one such example. :)

> the existing 7i77 worked last week when I was testing which is why I
> didn't double check wiring lol
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 9:23 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Saturday 21 November 2020 02:17:55 andrew beck wrote:
> > > I have two plugs connected from 5i25
> > >
> > > The cable to the 7i77 is a known good cable that was working last
> > > week.

If its a ribbon cable, that doesn't mean squat. Failure IS an option.

And way too many designers forget to treat it as a transmission line. 
Improperly terminated, anything over a foot ought to be terminated in 
125 or so ohms or it rings like the liberty bell. The theoretical 
impedance is about 132 ohms for such cabling.

[...]

Cheers Andrew, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

awesome yep that is the plan

for those that are interested here is a quick update video on the progress
today after all the emails

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JXQkm9tgWQ=youtu.be

Gene if you can watch youtube you can see my machines in it.  I do a
overview of the shed

regards

Andrew

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck 
> wrote:
>
> > Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also
>
> I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
> firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
> That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
> file in the firmware pack.
> ( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )
>
> > and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok
> > any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way
>
> Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
> and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
> (I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
> is, and which wire goes where)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 10:35, andrew beck  wrote:

> Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also

I don't know if you worked it out, but the 5i25_7i76_7i77 (etc)
firmwares _do_ need the cards to be on the designated headers.
That is why you can find a 5i25_7i76_7i77.bit and a 5i25_7i77_7i76.bit
file in the firmware pack.
( http://www.mesanet.com/software/parallel/5i25.zip )

> and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok
> any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way

Simplest is to chop one end off of a Cat5 cable, strip back the cores
and wire into the Smart Serial port on the 7i76.
(I am pretty sure that the 7i76 manual says which terminal block it
is, and which wire goes where)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

hey everyone

just another update here

the latest is I got a brand new mesa 7i77 out of the box and tried it and
that didn't work either when connected to the 5i25 that I have been using
for testing

So I decided to swap the 5i25 out and use  6i25.  I flashed the 6i25 with
the correct firmware and everything worked fine.

then tried the old 7i77 card and it worked fine too.

then connected up the 7i77 and 7i76 to the 6i25  everything works

the 5i25 works fine when using only 7i76 cards which is what was originally
in the board

so my conclusion is that I must have a older 5i25 (it is 3 years old)  and
maybe it needs the firmware updating  I have read that the older cards need
a hard reset

just so happy I haven't blown up any cards though.  and so glad that peter
(mesa) decided to protect against putting the 5v control power on backwards
lol

Now I want to update the firmware on the 5i25 so I can use it also as I
need it for another machine I have here (the second VMC)

and want to try out the 7i84 I have and see if the smart serial works ok

any thoughts guys?  whats the easiest way

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 10:09 PM andrew beck 
wrote:

> ok just did some more testing
>
> I have two 7i76 cards connected up now and everything works  (using second
> connector on 5i25 for extra 7i76)
>
> I am wondering if I have broken the 7i77 I have which I ran 5v backwards
> through.
>
> is this possible to do and if it is would I expect a communication error
> as a result of it?
>
> If I have broken it that would be a bit sad haha
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 9:40 PM andrew beck 
> wrote:
>
>> ok just did some testing
>>
>> when I flash the 5i25 with this 5i25_7i76x2.bit file it all works fine
>>
>> this is just with the 7i76 connected up
>>
>> when I try to connect up the 7i77 and flash this bit file
>> (5i25_7i76_7i77.bit)  into the 5i25 I get a issue
>>
>> the 7i77 is coming up with a red led though in CR16  I read in the manual
>> that this goes red when there is a communication error with 5i25.
>>
>> now I have just discovered that I powered the 7i77 with 5v and had the
>> polarity wrong so was trying to send -5v into 7i77.  I may have stuffed it
>> I suppose.  all the jumpered are set correctly but I may have created a
>> problem for myself
>>
>> any thoughts or ideas sing out.
>>
>> I have another brand new 7i77 I will try now and just see if that one
>> works.
>> .
>> the existing 7i77 worked last week when I was testing which is why I
>> didn't double check wiring lol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 9:23 PM Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday 21 November 2020 02:17:55 andrew beck wrote:
>>>
>>> > I have two plugs connected from 5i25
>>> >
>>> > The cable to the 7i77 is a known good cable that was working last
>>> > week.
>>> >
>>> > I think I might have my cables crossed.  Does it matter which port on
>>> > 5i25 I connect to which Mesa card?
>>> >
>>> In my case, yes but I'm only using a 7i76 and a mostly stock bob on my
>>> 5i25, the 7i76 only works on P3, and the bob only works on P2. That I
>>> believe is determined by the bitfile flashed into the 5i25.
>>>
>>> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:56 PM Gene Heskett 
>>> wrote:
>>> > > On Saturday 21 November 2020 01:29:11 andrew beck wrote:
>>> > > > Hey everyone.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think
>>> > > > I have flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the
>>> > > > correct bit file just in case please.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with
>>> > > > 24vdc. And I think it's powered up properly
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > And jumpers set correct I think.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the
>>> > > > manual means there is no communication with host 5i25?
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Any Ideas guys?
>>> > >
>>> > > I'd start by 'ringing' the interconnecting cable, meaning verify the
>>> > > continuity of every wire in it.  But Peter may spot a firmware
>>> > > problem.
>>> > >
>>> > > > Regards
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Andrew
>>> > > >
>>> > > > ___
>>> > > > Emc-users mailing list
>>> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> > >
>>> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> > > --
>>> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>> > >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>>> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>>> > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
>>> > > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
>>> > > Genes Web page 
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ___
>>> > > Emc-users mailing list
>>> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> >
>>> > 

Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

ok just did some more testing

I have two 7i76 cards connected up now and everything works  (using second
connector on 5i25 for extra 7i76)

I am wondering if I have broken the 7i77 I have which I ran 5v backwards
through.

is this possible to do and if it is would I expect a communication error as
a result of it?

If I have broken it that would be a bit sad haha



On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 9:40 PM andrew beck 
wrote:

> ok just did some testing
>
> when I flash the 5i25 with this 5i25_7i76x2.bit file it all works fine
>
> this is just with the 7i76 connected up
>
> when I try to connect up the 7i77 and flash this bit file
> (5i25_7i76_7i77.bit)  into the 5i25 I get a issue
>
> the 7i77 is coming up with a red led though in CR16  I read in the manual
> that this goes red when there is a communication error with 5i25.
>
> now I have just discovered that I powered the 7i77 with 5v and had the
> polarity wrong so was trying to send -5v into 7i77.  I may have stuffed it
> I suppose.  all the jumpered are set correctly but I may have created a
> problem for myself
>
> any thoughts or ideas sing out.
>
> I have another brand new 7i77 I will try now and just see if that one
> works.
> .
> the existing 7i77 worked last week when I was testing which is why I
> didn't double check wiring lol
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 9:23 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Saturday 21 November 2020 02:17:55 andrew beck wrote:
>>
>> > I have two plugs connected from 5i25
>> >
>> > The cable to the 7i77 is a known good cable that was working last
>> > week.
>> >
>> > I think I might have my cables crossed.  Does it matter which port on
>> > 5i25 I connect to which Mesa card?
>> >
>> In my case, yes but I'm only using a 7i76 and a mostly stock bob on my
>> 5i25, the 7i76 only works on P3, and the bob only works on P2. That I
>> believe is determined by the bitfile flashed into the 5i25.
>>
>> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:56 PM Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>> > > On Saturday 21 November 2020 01:29:11 andrew beck wrote:
>> > > > Hey everyone.
>> > > >
>> > > > Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think
>> > > > I have flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the
>> > > > correct bit file just in case please.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with
>> > > > 24vdc. And I think it's powered up properly
>> > > >
>> > > > I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.
>> > > >
>> > > > And jumpers set correct I think.
>> > > >
>> > > > Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the
>> > > > manual means there is no communication with host 5i25?
>> > > >
>> > > > Any Ideas guys?
>> > >
>> > > I'd start by 'ringing' the interconnecting cable, meaning verify the
>> > > continuity of every wire in it.  But Peter may spot a firmware
>> > > problem.
>> > >
>> > > > Regards
>> > > >
>> > > > Andrew
>> > > >
>> > > > ___
>> > > > Emc-users mailing list
>> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> > >
>> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> > > --
>> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> > >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
>> > > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
>> > > Genes Web page 
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Emc-users mailing list
>> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Emc-users mailing list
>> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>>  - Louis D. Brandeis
>> Genes Web page 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

ok just did some testing

when I flash the 5i25 with this 5i25_7i76x2.bit file it all works fine

this is just with the 7i76 connected up

when I try to connect up the 7i77 and flash this bit file
(5i25_7i76_7i77.bit)  into the 5i25 I get a issue

the 7i77 is coming up with a red led though in CR16  I read in the manual
that this goes red when there is a communication error with 5i25.

now I have just discovered that I powered the 7i77 with 5v and had the
polarity wrong so was trying to send -5v into 7i77.  I may have stuffed it
I suppose.  all the jumpered are set correctly but I may have created a
problem for myself

any thoughts or ideas sing out.

I have another brand new 7i77 I will try now and just see if that one
works.
.
the existing 7i77 worked last week when I was testing which is why I didn't
double check wiring lol




On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 9:23 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday 21 November 2020 02:17:55 andrew beck wrote:
>
> > I have two plugs connected from 5i25
> >
> > The cable to the 7i77 is a known good cable that was working last
> > week.
> >
> > I think I might have my cables crossed.  Does it matter which port on
> > 5i25 I connect to which Mesa card?
> >
> In my case, yes but I'm only using a 7i76 and a mostly stock bob on my
> 5i25, the 7i76 only works on P3, and the bob only works on P2. That I
> believe is determined by the bitfile flashed into the 5i25.
>
> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:56 PM Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> > > On Saturday 21 November 2020 01:29:11 andrew beck wrote:
> > > > Hey everyone.
> > > >
> > > > Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think
> > > > I have flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the
> > > > correct bit file just in case please.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with
> > > > 24vdc. And I think it's powered up properly
> > > >
> > > > I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.
> > > >
> > > > And jumpers set correct I think.
> > > >
> > > > Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the
> > > > manual means there is no communication with host 5i25?
> > > >
> > > > Any Ideas guys?
> > >
> > > I'd start by 'ringing' the interconnecting cable, meaning verify the
> > > continuity of every wire in it.  But Peter may spot a firmware
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > > --
> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > > Genes Web page 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 21 November 2020 02:17:55 andrew beck wrote:

> I have two plugs connected from 5i25
>
> The cable to the 7i77 is a known good cable that was working last
> week.
>
> I think I might have my cables crossed.  Does it matter which port on
> 5i25 I connect to which Mesa card?
>
In my case, yes but I'm only using a 7i76 and a mostly stock bob on my 
5i25, the 7i76 only works on P3, and the bob only works on P2. That I 
believe is determined by the bitfile flashed into the 5i25.

> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:56 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Saturday 21 November 2020 01:29:11 andrew beck wrote:
> > > Hey everyone.
> > >
> > > Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think
> > > I have flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the
> > > correct bit file just in case please.
> > >
> > > I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with
> > > 24vdc. And I think it's powered up properly
> > >
> > > I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.
> > >
> > > And jumpers set correct I think.
> > >
> > > Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the
> > > manual means there is no communication with host 5i25?
> > >
> > > Any Ideas guys?
> >
> > I'd start by 'ringing' the interconnecting cable, meaning verify the
> > continuity of every wire in it.  But Peter may spot a firmware
> > problem.
> >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

I have two plugs connected from 5i25

The cable to the 7i77 is a known good cable that was working last week.

I think I might have my cables crossed.  Does it matter which port on 5i25
I connect to which Mesa card?

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:56 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday 21 November 2020 01:29:11 andrew beck wrote:
>
> > Hey everyone.
> >
> > Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think I
> > have flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the correct
> > bit file just in case please.
> >
> > I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with 24vdc.
> > And I think it's powered up properly
> >
> > I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.
> >
> > And jumpers set correct I think.
> >
> > Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the
> > manual means there is no communication with host 5i25?
> >
> > Any Ideas guys?
> >
> I'd start by 'ringing' the interconnecting cable, meaning verify the
> continuity of every wire in it.  But Peter may spot a firmware problem.
>
> > Regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 21 November 2020 01:29:11 andrew beck wrote:

> Hey everyone.
>
> Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think I
> have flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the correct
> bit file just in case please.
>
> I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with 24vdc. 
> And I think it's powered up properly
>
> I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.
>
> And jumpers set correct I think.
>
> Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the
> manual means there is no communication with host 5i25?
>
> Any Ideas guys?
>
I'd start by 'ringing' the interconnecting cable, meaning verify the 
continuity of every wire in it.  But Peter may spot a firmware problem.

> Regards
>
> Andrew
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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[Emc-users] Quick question on connecting up Mesa cards

[andrew beck]

Hey everyone.

Just connecting up Mesa cards I have a 5i25 7i76 7i77 and I think I have
flashed the correct bit file.  Can someone link me to the correct bit file
just in case please.

I'm not getting any field io working.  I am powering it with 24vdc.  And I
think it's powered up properly

I have a external 5v supply for the control power of Both cards.

And jumpers set correct I think.

Only strange thing is cr16 led on the 7i77 is red.  Which in the manual
means there is no communication with host 5i25?

Any Ideas guys?

Regards

Andrew

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Re: [Emc-users] quick question on parallel port cables

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, R C wrote:


Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:13:20 -0700
From: R C 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] quick question on parallel port cables


On 11/6/20 8:08 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 02:48, R C  wrote:


You will need a cable that has ALL 25 pins connected (one to one),

that's called a straight through

It's a bit more than that, as some parallel cables only have enough
wires to work a printer, and leave some out.


that would not be a parallel straight through, you would need a db25 
straight through





You need an IEEE 1284 cable. (then buzz it through with a multimeter
when it arrives, and if it _isn't_ IEEE 1284 you have grounds for
return/refund.

Nah,  you just need a  db25 straight through...  or a   db25 extension 
cable,  which is the same thing.



Because of the high speed signals on a 7I77 interface, a IEEE-1284 cable is 
suggested as it has lower crosstalk and better ground integrity



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



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Re: [Emc-users] quick question on parallel port cables

[R C]

On 11/6/20 8:08 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 02:48, R C  wrote:


You will need a cable that has ALL 25 pins connected (one to one),

that's called a straight through

It's a bit more than that, as some parallel cables only have enough
wires to work a printer, and leave some out.


that would not be a parallel straight through, you would need a db25 
straight through





You need an IEEE 1284 cable. (then buzz it through with a multimeter
when it arrives, and if it _isn't_ IEEE 1284 you have grounds for
return/refund.

Nah,  you just need a  db25 straight through...  or a   db25 extension 
cable,  which is the same thing.



Ron



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Re: [Emc-users] quick question on parallel port cables

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 02:48, R C  wrote:

> > You will need a cable that has ALL 25 pins connected (one to one),

> that's called a straight through

It's a bit more than that, as some parallel cables only have enough
wires to work a printer, and leave some out.

You need an IEEE 1284 cable. (then buzz it through with a multimeter
when it arrives, and if it _isn't_ IEEE 1284 you have grounds for
return/refund.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] quick question on parallel port cables

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 7 Nov 2020, andrew beck wrote:


Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 15:10:32 +1300
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: [Emc-users] quick question on parallel port cables

hey everyone

I found that I am missing a parallel port cable for between one of my mesa
5i25 and 7i77 cards

I am in new zealand and don't really want to buy a cable from america as
shipping is heaps just for a cable.  if I buy one locally what am I looking
for?

here are some options

pbtech parallel port cable
<https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/CABDNX1024/Dynamix-C-NM25-FF-2M-Null-Modem-Cable-DB25-FF>



You dont want a null modem cable and ideally you should use a IEEE-1284 cable
These are special in that each signal wire has a twisted pair ground.





I have heard that you can't use just any parallel port cable as some have
the wires crossed inside

regards

Andrew

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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