Re: t-and-f: When XC courses were shorter
Veering a bit here but the subject line made me think of it. There are some yahoos on letsrun that actually espouse the theory that the reason there was so much depth in distance in the early eighties is because the courses(and probably the tracks) were all short. Regards, Martin ghill wrote: Found this while doing some NCAA research: 61st in the '58 NCAA race (at 4M) was Cliff Cushman, who in '60 won Olympic silver in the 400H.
Re: t-and-f: When XC courses were shorter
You'll probably be able to resist Ed but here is one of the better quotes. The thread is: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1thread=37235page=0 Regards, Martin I've said it before and I'll say it again, the courses prior to mid-1980s were SHORT. Don't believe the apocrypha. The one-legged mailman from Greater Boston may have run 2:13 (for what, 24 miles?) but he was not as good a marathoner as Meb, Rod Dehaven, or probably even Deena Drossin for that matter. Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Veering a bit here but the subject line made me think of it. There are some yahoos on letsrun that actually espouse the theory that the reason there was so much depth in distance in the early eighties is because the courses(and probably the tracks) were all short. I assume you are talking about U.S. depth here. I think that the Boston marathon and Falmouth road race results from 1980-1985, run on essentially the same courses as now, would quickly dispel such BS. I have no doubt that there was more inaccuracy 25 years ago, but to use it as an excuse has got to be the most pitiful, chicken-s#%t thing I've ever heard. I knew there was a reason I don't go to letsrun.com. - Ed Parrot -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender.
Re: t-and-f:NCAA brothers
Veering again here but I've always been impressed by this result by the
Craig twins. Had to be a reasonably deep field for the time and probably
full of people who had been peaking for an Olympic 1500 that they didn't
get to go to? I'm sure that I am about to find out.
4th all time Can
3:57.21, PAUL CRAIG 53, 6, WEST BERLIN, AUG 08 80
10 all time Can
3:58.05, JOHN CRAIG 53, 10, WEST BERLIN, AUG 08 80
Regards,
Martin
ghill wrote:
Popular question after yesterday is, are the Torreses the best bro combo in
NCAA cross history?
This isn't solid TFN-proofed research, but in a few minutes of poring
through the files my answer is that they're easily the best 1-year brothers,
beating themselves from last year. These are the combos I turned up in my
quick search, with their scores and places.
11...Torres '02 (1/10)
17...Torres '01 (2/15)
18...Leddy '72 (3/15)
19...Hauser '98 (6/13)
20...Hauser '96 (6/14)
21...Kennedy '57 (5/16)
27...Hauser '97 (10/17)
30...Ashenfelter '50 (8/22)
.Torres '00 (3/27)
45...Keino '94 (1/44)
They're not the best lifetime bros, however. Not even No. 2:
4Kennedys (Michigan State): Forddy 1 ('58), Kennedy 3 ('56)
6Ashenfelters (Penn St): Horace 2 ('47), Bill 4 ('51)
11...Torreses (Colorado) '02
15...Ashenfelters: Horace 2 ('47), Don 13 ('49)
17...Ashenfelters: Bill 4 ('51), Don 13 ('49)
18...Leddys (East Tennessee) '72
19...Hausers (Stanford) '98
By extrapolation (and default!), the Ashenfelters win the lifetime 3-bro
award at 19. No, they never ran the Nationals all at once.
t-and-f: Mondor
Given how she has been running, there is an argument to be made that she is the best North American collegiate female XC runner. http://www.sfu.ca/athletics/track-field/press_releases02/tf_naia_11-23-02.html Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Canada's Franklin
Dr. Barwin also says the 2:58 he posted in the Victoria marathon, where
there were no timing mats, is a legitimate time.
Whatever.
I'm sure the Canadian listers from Ottawa are well aware of this cheat.
To access the link, make sure you put the symbol at the end of the link
into your browser.
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id={5F25E695-9F71-4F46-8FCE-CEA5B6117984}
Regards,
Martin
t-and-f: Job opening
A posting to the Canadian list. Regards, Martin From: David Scott-Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track-Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] Despite the informal nature of this group, I thought it would be a good mechanism to help get the word out about a position with the Guelph Athletics Society we are looking to fill in the sports of track and field and cross-country. Notice will also be placed within relevant institutions, national and provincial governing bodies etc. The Guelph Athletics Society, formed in 1999, is a not-for-profit organization of business, public sector and athletics professionals dedicated to developing the City of Guelph as a centre for the advancement of athletics, performance, coaching and training. This position is made possible with the support of an Ontario Trillium Foundation grant. Please direct any questions to me directly. JOB POSTING Youth Program Coordinator Track and Field/Cross-country The Guelph Athletics Society, with the support of an Ontario Trillium Foundation grant, is seeking applications for the position of Youth Program Coordinator: Track and Field/Cross-country. Reporting directly to the Executive Director and the Board of Directors of the Guelph Athletics Society, the Youth Program Coordinator will be responsible for the delivery of a series of track and field and cross-country programs targeting the elementary and high school aged youth of Wellington County. These programs include, but are not limited to, established activities such as Run With the Pros and Extreme Runners (fall cross-country), Beat the Snow (indoor track and field), Spring Training Days (outdoor track and field) and the creation of several new programs including the Run For Action Relay. Additional support and resources will be available through partnerships with the University of Guelph, and The Health and Performance Centre Guelph. The focus is on the promotion of a healthy lifestyle, active living and positive role modeling using track and field and cross-country as a vehicle. End goals are to increase participation in youth athletics in Wellington County by promoting existing programs, improving access to local facilities, and organizing community events. The successful applicant should possess the following: familiarity with the sport of track and field/cross-country; experience working with the target age group; entrepreneurial skills relevant to event management and public relations; valid drivers license and first aid certification; familiarity with standard office software. The applicant will also need to agree to a background check. The term of the position is three years, pending satisfactory semi-annual performance reviews. Salary is $20,592.00 per year, based on 20 hours/week at $18.00/hour. The position will remain open until a suitable candidate is found. The planned start date is January, 2003. Applications and inquiries should be forwarded to: Dave Scott-Thomas Executive Director, Guelph Athletics Society 50 Yewholme Dr., Guelph, Ont., N1G 3A4 Phone: 519-824-4120 ext 3430 Fax: 519-766-9563 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Sad news
http://www.letsrun.com/2002/kipkuna.php Ed Grant wrote: Netters: Several years ago I was introduced to a young man at a HS meet at Fairleigh Dickinson University and was told he was the brother of Paul Tergat. (FDU has three Kenyan men and at least one woman on its present CC team) Byt that was the last I heard of him as a runner. I had heard that the young man had contracted liver cancer and was in very serious condition. At the NJCTC meet on Saturday, I was told the saw news that he had died around the time of the Chicago Marathon and that paul had gone directly from there to Kenya for the suneral. Only 25 years of age and leaving behind a wife and two children. What a pity Ed Grant
t-and-f: NY redux
Watched a tape of the marathon from the local affiliate last night and saw the death march of some of top finishers. An englishman named O'Dowd went flying by Meb in the last few hundred yards for 8th place and 2:12:20 in his debut(his previous claim to fame was a 63 half). No wonder he looked like he was flying. He was the last guy to finish reasonably strong. He ran the last 10km on 32:24 compared to Meb's 35:08. I got wondering just how fast they were going so I took a look at the 21 guys that broke 2:20. Keep in mind that there were 16 still under a 5 minute pace at 20 miles. They went(eoe): 30:43 :53 31:13 :21 :23 32:35 34:13 32:24 35:08 34:57 35:48(Schiebler) :24 34:21 38:33 No split at 20-odd-I told the organizers-maybe he cut over to Central Park 39:09 39:20 35:57 39:33 36:39 35:39 Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Americans at NY
A reasonably funny post to letsrun: First U.S.-Born Finisher in NYC Marathon -- Guess Who? Scroll down. Marla Runyan, a 33-year-old blind woman. Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Drug lord dead
Gibson had the swim of her life to beat the world record held by East German Birgit Treiber in the 1976 Olympic final of the 400-metre individual medley. But there was another East German in the pool that day, Ulrike Tauber, who was more than six seconds ahead of Gibson. I don't talk about that any more, Gibson told The Globe and Mail when Stasi records were being opened. I'm a tax lawyer in Edmonton, with two kids and a happy family and a good life. That is more precious to her than all the golds won by the East German juggernaut. http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=ewaldoption=start_row=1start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_results_start=1query=ewald The link is kind of long. You can go here: www.globeandmail.com and search for Ewald. Nothing new but a good reminder of the price the athletes paid. Regards, Martin
t-and-f: 2003 K of C Games, Feb 7-9
I don't think this forwarded message went through the first time because it went as HTML text. Sorry if you are getting twice. Regards, Martin The 2003 Knights of Columbus Games is fast approaching. Along with the 800 age class athletes and 3500 elementary school students who compete in this meet, we host some of the best athletes from Canada and the World in Invitational Sections, here in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. As in previous years, we provide airfare, hotel, perdium and a banquet ticket to our invited guests. We also provide prize money of $500, $300 $200 Canadian for each event. This year's meet will be February 8-9, 2003 (we fly you in on the 7th and home on the 10th. We will be offering the following events: 50m 60m 200m 400m 60H PV (Women) Plus, as many as three other events (depending on the fields available) If you (or know someone who) would like to be invited, please contact me with information about the athlete. Also, we have athletes visit inner-city schools a few days before. If the athlete is available for these visits, let me know. Feel free to pass this information on to anyone you think may be interested. Thanks, Scott St. Pierre
Re: t-and-f: Hall of Fame...
Actually, now that you mention it, seeing Sully break 4 as a high schooler was one of the most exciting things that I have ever seen. Regards, Martin T. Jordan wrote: One of the most entertaining performances I've seen...Alan Webb's HS mile record. During his last 300, it was the loudest I've heard it at Hayward Field since the East Grandstands were moved back 30 feet in 1987.
t-and-f: North American 5k Road Championships
North American 5k Road Championships Chula Vista, California Sunday, October 27th 2002 Partly cloudy, 20 degrees Celsius Team Results 1. Mexico 10 pts 2. USA 16 pts 3. Canada 21 pts Individual Results Women 1. Dulce Rodriguez MEX 15:30 2. Émilie Mondor CAN 15:32 (PB) 3. Adriana Fernandez MEX 15:36 4. Sylvia Mosqueda USA 15:38 5. Nora Rocha MEX 15:42 6. Libbie Hickman USA 15:49 7. Colleen De Reuck USA 15:57 8. Lucy Smith CAN 16:03 9. Courtney Babcock CAN 16:17 Men 1. David Galvin MEX 13;47 2. Bolota Asmeron USA 13:54 3. Kevin Sullivan CAN 14:00 (PB) 4. Clint Wells USA 14:01 5. Julio Valle MEX 14:05 6. Henry Dennis USA 14:19 7. Teodoro Vega MEX 14:23 8. Jeremy Deere CAN 14:26 9. David Milne CAN 14:44
Re: t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: A Journey With Wilt ChamberlainThrough Sport and Life
Makes you wonder about the following I guess then. Maybe he would have only saved them from bad breath. When he learned that a famous track coach was supplying his athletes with drugs, Chamberlain withdrew his support, and agonized over whether he should go public to save the life of other young athletes. Typically, Chamberlain said nothing. Regards, Martin ghill wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:53:40 -0400 (EDT) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: A Journey With Wilt Chamberlain Through Sport and Life This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Journey With Wilt Chamberlain Through Sport and Life October 13, 2002 By ROBERT LIPSYTE [most of it snipped here] But that's not all [Lynda Huey] wrote. Her journals and unpublished memoirs have a jock Sex and the City sensibility. In one episode, she wangles media credentials to get close to a famous Olympian from another country. In the midst of recounting the graphic, gamey details of their explosive encounter, she stops to describe an illegal, performance-enhancing substance he was using. She writes: If you ever used dimethyl sulfur dioxide (DMSO), you tasted it; and if you ever tasted it, you never forgot that taste. It was the supposed wonder drug of the 1970's. If something hurt, you spread this clear, garlic-smelling syrup on it and sometimes the pain disappeared. Within a few minutes it was in your bloodstream and the taste of garlic was in your mouth. If the NYT wrote it, it must be true, but this is the first I've ever heard of DMSO being either illegal or performance-enhancing. Far as I know, it's an industrial solvent that's a byproduct of the wood-processing industry. Hence the fact that Bill Bowerman's athletes in the '60s loved it. It penetrates the skin with ease, hence its use to carry other substances into the body. I can't imagine that the IAAF or IOC have ever looked at it as a substance to be banned. Didn't the FDA even refuse even to sanction its production as a drug? (I remember Oregon athletes of the era complaining that decision was based on bad science.) gh
t-and-f: Make it stop
No offense to Monti and RRW but the IAAF really shouldn't propagate this kind of NYRRC/RW nonsense. Even at age 50, he could do much better than this. I'm surprised Rojo would promote the piece without some kind of editorial comment. Coghlan will compete seriously in the New York City Marathon for the first time since 1991... Coghlan's stated intention is to finish in approximately 2:55-3:00... Those 2 sentences do not belong in the same story. http://www.iaaf.org/news/Kind=2/newsId=19909.html Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: Meanwhile back at the hall of fame....
Some ageism here but Eamonn's face in 83(pre marathon career) on the home stretch and Joannie winning shortly after her knee surgery, Regards, Martin Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: In terms of the most memorable for me: -both the Lewis-Powell Long Jump and the whole 100m from 1991 -2002 London marathon - KK, Geb, Tergat There are also two other performances that stick in my mind, although they don't deserve all-time recognition - one of them isn't even a victory: -Ngugi's 5K gold in Seoul -Aouita's bronze at 800m in Seoul I am too young to remember anything before about 1985, but the above are the ones from my era that I remember the most. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: Jack Pfeifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:23 AM Subject: t-and-f: Meanwhile back at the hall of fame i couldn't agree more, gh. i grew up with cal ripken but was shocked to see his passing gehrig chosen #1. it doesn't even belong in the top 5. my personal choice for #1, the 1951 Shot Heard Round the World, apparently merely dates me (even though I was too young to have known about it when it occurred). What are some nominees for Top Moments of the Century in TF? A few possibilities (in no particular order): Bob Hayes' 4x1 anchor in Tokyo Beamon's LJ in Mexico City FloJo's 10.49 Rafer Johnson vs CK Yang Wilma Rudolph in Rome Jesse Owens in Berlin 1952 4x4 Jamaica vs US Lindgren defeats Russians at 10k US-Russia dual at Stanford during Cuban missile crisis Lusis vs Wolfermann in Munich '72 Mills's win over Clarke and Gammoudi in Tokyo Ryun vs Liquori in Philadelphia ... What else? JP aka, what happens when the public gets involved: Today's local paper had a nasty article about the choosing of baseball's all-time 10 greatest moments by the fans. Obviously that's an exercise in futility, and one with a lot of subjectivity involved. The most telling point in the article was that in a sport more than 100 years old, 5 of the 10 moments happened in the last 17 years. How does this relate to track's HOF (my favorite rant at the moment)? I wrote a column on the subject for next month's issue of TFN and in it I noted that while all four of the people who will be inducted this year had bona fide credentials for so going, of the 11 people who were nominated, the 4 who got in came from the group of the 5 youngest. If you're incapable of voting for anything that happened before your time, then don't vote. gh
Re: t-and-f: Meanwhile back at the hall of fame....
Except there are some (not me) that say that isn't even PR's best performance of the year so that sends it way down the food chain. Regards, Martin (bad science follower) Post, Marty wrote: Paula Radcliffe - 2:17:18 ! Oh, wait, That's my short-term memory kicking in.
t-and-f: Virus?
I have just received my 3rd blank message in the last hour from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Am I the only one. Sorry to trouble the list if I am. Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: That's my $125 Once A Runner on eBay!!!
So I go home to check to see if mine is a first edition and I CAN'T FIND IT! Regards, Martin John Lunn wrote: What is the difference? Keith Whitman wrote: OK, I'm sorry folks, but enough of the madness. It's just a book and I can't believe that anybody would pay that much for this book (eventhough I have no doubt that somebody did). Want to read a book that can truly change your life? Try the bible. It's only a sport, it aint real life! Keith Whitman Head Coach Cross Country/Track Field Muskingum College http://www.muskingum.edu (740) 826-8018-Office (330) 677-4631-Home (740) 826-8300-Fax Galations 2:20
t-and-f: Washington and the sniper
A guy I am coaching is signed up for Washington and was going to go with a friend who is also running and they were both taking their wives and families. Everybody has canceled out except for the guy I am coaching. The funny thing is, the marathon and last week's 10 miler down there will be and were probably the safest places to be given the heavy armed forces presence in the races. Below is a post to letsrun on the matter. Regards, Martin I ran the Army 10 Miler last weekend with my husband who is an LTC serving at the Pentagon. I am six months pregnant. I have never seen so much fire power in my life. They are serious about keeping you safe. Everyone had to go through metal detectors to get to the starting area. This is not fat Bubba the sheriff leaning on his squad car at an intersection. These are MPs and DOD police, carrying M16s and close quarter assault weapons. And that's the security I saw on the course. The thing to remember about these races affiliated with the military are not just run by the masses. General officers run these races too and the military is very concerned about keeping them safe with everything going on in the world. My husband's department had a team competing, both the 2 star and the 3 star general ran on the team. It is the safest place for you to be this weekend in DC.
t-and-f: Brannen/Webb
A great post to tnfnorth. Asked what Brannen's chances are if he is to go head to head with Webb down the road in track, Warhurst does not waver. I don't think he'll lose to him, he said More at: http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/aanews/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/sports-0/103521121714990.xml Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Alice Cooper--4:30 miler
Very funny piece. He obviously took care of himself a little better than the Hoons, Staleys and Cobains of the world. Regards, Martin Cooper: When Wayne's World came out [in 1992], I was coaching 11- and 12-year-old kids, and we had a practice the Monday after the movie opened. The kids were just standing there stunned. Finally one little kid comes up to me and says, Coach Cooper, how did you get in Wayne's World? I said, Well, I got this little band. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/QandA/2002/1014/index.html Brian McGuire wrote: In the October 14 Sports Ilustrated, rock n roll legend Alice Cooper is identified in a Q + A as having been a 4:32 miler in high school. Boy, Frank Shorter was right when he said EVERYONE back in the day was a 4:30 miler! Cooper also sez he can still go 6:10 for a mile, which puts him just about in the company of President Bush. Is that how it is now--everyone over 50 (who used to go 4:30) is now a 6:00 miler? I'd love to see a celebrity mile between Cooper and Bush, maybe at this year's Penn Relays? Shades of Keino vs. Liquori? Brian McGuire
t-and-f: Drayton and the Day
Even getting guys to run 120 miles a week, they just don't want to do that. Heck, Paula Radcliffe's amazing 2:17:18 time in last weekend's Chicago marathon, a women's world record, has been surpassed by only three Canadian men (Peter Fonseca, Graeme Fell, Bruce Deacon) in the past decade. http://waymoresports.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=waymoresports/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1026146537493call_page=WM_Homecall_pageid=979619472127call_pagepath=Home/Home Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: Chicago and US runners
70s attitude: We didn't think 2:14 was something to write home about. One man's criticism is another man's commentary. Regards, Martin malmo wrote: No one is implying anything. Your criticism has no merit to stand on. Simple stuff. malmo -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] As to Malmo's comment: I did take these types of risks when I could 20 years ago, and I both paid dearly for them and had some shocking improvements. I not asking them to do any differently than I tried to do. And by implying that only current elite athletes can criticize current elite athletes, you are saying that no fan of the sport has any standing in talking about athletes' performances. That's not a valid defense. RMc At 07:57 PM 10/14/2002 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/14/2002 7:51:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But what's this pack of US runners? Looks like they were on a training run rather than racing rest of the world Since when is going out in sub 1:06 a training run? Of course this is going to go back to the old tired thread of why isn't the US as good as the rest of the world?, but going out at 2:11 marathon pace for the first half is not training. If your goal is sub 2:12 then they were right where they needed to be, they just did not get it done in the second half. Brian Fullem
Re: t-and-f: chip vs. gun times at Chicago
They have adjusted the chip times from yesterday to today. The 42nd place finisher, for example, had a 25 second differential yesterday and now it is 5 seconds. The chip time has been increased. Regards, Martin Post, Marty wrote: I might have missed some of the follow-up conversation on this but I do not see where you are getting this information from. I am looking at a set of results from the press room and the following is a sample of the times: Place/Name/Chip Time/Gun Time 11. Ben Kimondiu/2:13:55/2:13:57 12. Kyle Baker/2:14:12/2:14:13 13. Clint Verran/2:14:16/2:14:17 14. Keith Dowling/2:14:21/2:14:22 15. Ryan Shay/2:14:29/2:14:30 16. Peter De La Cerda/2:14:40/2:14:41 17. Kentaro Ito/2:14:40/2:14:41 18. Josh Cox/2:15:00/2:15:01 19. Ian Syster/2:16:02/2:16:04 20. Abdelah Behar/2:16:12/2:16:14 Weldon Johnson, the women's pace-setter started well behind the start line and had chip/gun times of 2:17:50 and 2:18:10. The next guy with a bigger discrepancy was the 35th finisher The top 10 women had identical chip/gun times; after that a series of 2-3 second differences appears. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: chip vs. gun times at Chicago Looking at the Chicago results, virtually every person outside the top ten, including names like Kimondiu, de la Cerda, Dowling, Cox, and Shay, had gun times that were 20-25 seconds slower than their chip times. I've seen pictures of the Boston start, and heard similar stories from New York, with the elite getting a substantial buffer zone on the masses. But do even sub-2:15 guys now count as the masses and have to give up what appears to be, based on the time involved, upwards of 100 meters? I can't imagine any race actually has a buffer zone that size - that's bigger than a city block in most downtowns. What's going on here? Another question: are the split times listed chip times? Kimondiu's half-way split (1:02:10) is faster than the top finishers by almost exactly the difference between his gun- and chip times at the finish. My interpretation is that he made up the 21-second gap from the start and was running with the leaders at halfway, but maybe I should read all the reports for myself. david
Re: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs......
Did he actually key on any of those races? It's the nature of the marathon beast. I'm not saying that he deserves it. Just saying that I don't think all of his performances can be evaluated the way they are in other events. Regards, Martin Post, Marty wrote: As much as I would like to see a pure roadie -- none of this moonlighting on the track or cross-country ! - be AOY, Khannouchi's non-marathon racing this year detracts from his 2 stellar marathons. Good wins at San Blas and Kyoto Half-Marathons, but a horrendous 60th place at Sapporo and a 4th place at Philly is not the kind of performance you expect from an AOY. Throw in a 3rd at Falmouth, a 4th at an Italian 10-K and a 13th at another 10-K in Puerto Rico, and that's just four wins in 10 races. If anyone beats out Sanchez it ought to be the yet another undefeated year, yet another leading the world lists at 1500m/mile, yet another Golden League jackpotter, etc. El Guerrouj. -Original Message- From: ghill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:51 AM To: track list Subject: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs.. I think a decent case for men's Athlete Of The Year can now be made for Khannouchi, although I continue to lean towards Sánchez myself. gh
Re: t-and-f: Hot Performances at Chicago Marathon...
Ok gh I assume AOY is NOW a slam dunk. Regards, Martin miscott wrote: Excellent live updates on Runnersworld.com from the Chicago Marathon... According to RW, Khannouchi notched yet another sub-2:06, come-from-behind win, crossing the line in 2:05:55 (4th-fastest ever). Culpepper is reported to have broken 2:10. In the women's race, Radcliffe won in another-worldly 2:17:18 Check out RW Online for more details. Mike Scott Vice Chair/Secretary, USATF Cross Country Council Clubs Coordinator, Team USA Distance Running Coordinator, CanAm High Performance Distance Circuit [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://miscott.home.att.net/
Re: t-and-f: AOY
That marathon time is equivalent to a 29:28(26:02 male) effort however which is just under the WR. Based on this from Wejo, she has more in her: As the above splits indicate, their 23rd mile was slow. When Weldon told her it was 5:22 (he was looking at his watch a second ahead). She said, What? put her head down and ran a 5:09 straight into a huge huge wind. Regards, Martin ghill wrote: on 10/13/02 8:35, Tony Banovich at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay, so the question of the day is for Garry Hill. Do you still think that Paula is undeserving of AOY honors? The tough question now is, which of her marks is the POY? I lean towards the 10K myself. gh
Re: t-and-f: marathon stats
Info from Monti: You can listen to live audio updates from the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon on the web by tuning to BBC's Radio Five. You need an audio card and at least a pair of headphones attached to your computer. Go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/, then click the link for listen live. The BBC producer here told me that there will be updates from the race every five minutes or so. BTW, just about every British athletics journalist is here in Chicago to follow Paula's race. There is also a huge contingent of Japanese journalists, mainly here to cover Yoko Shibui. TV Tokyo will show the race live. ENDS David Monti, Editor Publisher, Race Results Weekly [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 212 752 2666 +1 212 752 2626 (fax) +1 815 461 2285 (alt fax) POB 8233 FDR Station, New York, NY 10150 USA Race Results Weekly is sponsored by: RUNNER'S WORLD SALMINI FILMS Ben Hall wrote: BBC Five Live is supposed to have it on radio. It's available via the web. TFN will have link to hte coverage with the rest of the stats for the race. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-t-and-f;lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Bob Duncan Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:07 PM To: track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon stats Gary Hill wrote: in anticipation of a kick-ass Chicago on Sunday, we've posted some stats you might find interesting on the TFN site (www.trackandfieldnews.com) Thanks for the interesting statistics. Now, if only we had televised coverage in the US (outside of Chicago or satellite)... Runner's World is giving updates during the race on their website, but it's not the same! Anybody know of any other live coverage options? bob -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender.
Re: t-and-f: Tegla Loroupe's 25,000 m world record/repost
I realize that it is nice to keep accurate records but that is a 2:27 marathon pace. I suspect that Radcliffe has had faster tempo runs Regards, Martin Post, Marty wrote: Does anyone know the official time for Loroupe's 25,000m WR at Mengerskirchen on September 21? I have seen both 1:27:05.84 and 1:27:04.89. These results posted to club website, http://www.lc-mengerskirchen.de/ergebnisse/2002/bahneroeffnung.htm 25.000m 1. 1 Loroupe, Tegla 73 Kenia 1:27:05,84 WR 2. 4 Ptikany, Mary 75 Kenia 1:27:06,22 3. 2 Kimuria, Emily 79 Kenia 1:30:48,25 4. 5 Wieder, Rita 56 TV Eschhofen 2:10:02,93 3 Chepkemoi, Beatrice84 Kenia disq. However from spreadsheet with all .5 laps, a final time of 1:27:04.89 indicated Runde Distanz Rundenzeit Gesamtzeit min/km 0.5 200 0:41.10 00:41.103:25.50 1.5 600 1:23.73 02:04.833:28.05 2.5 1,000 1:23.65 03:28.483:28.48 3.5 1,400 1:22.62 04:51.103:27.93 4.5 1,800 1:21.15 06:12.253:26.81 5.5 2,200 1:21.19 07:33.443:26.11 6.5 2,600 1:23.00 08:56.443:26.32 7.5 3,000 1:23.88 10:20.323:26.77 8.5 3,400 1:25.40 11:45.723:27.56 9.5 3,800 1:27.11 13:12.833:28.64 10.54,200 1:28.75 14:41.583:29.90 11.54,600 1:27.74 16:09.323:30.72 12.55,000 1:27.42 17:36.743:31.35 13.55,400 1:26.20 19:02.943:31.66 14.55,800 1:25.68 20:28.623:31.83 15.56,200 1:24.44 21:53.063:31.78 16.56,600 1:24.76 23:17.823:31.79 17.57,000 1:25.29 24:43.113:31.87 18.57,400 1:25.58 26:08.693:31.99 19.57,800 1:23.70 27:32.393:31.84 20.58,200 1:22.18 28:54.573:31.53 21.58,600 1:21.41 30:15.983:31.16 22.59,000 1:21.80 31:37.783:30.86 23.59,400 1:22.99 33:00.773:30.72 24.59,800 1:23.90 34:24.673:30.68 25.510,200 1:22.95 35:47.623:30.55 26.510,600 1:24.63 37:12.253:30.59 27.511,000 1:25.20 38:37.453:30.68 28.511,400 1:25.58 40:03.033:30.79 29.511,800 1:25.30 41:28.333:30.88 30.512,200 1:24.42 42:52.753:30.88 31.512,600 1:24.22 44:16.973:30.87 32.513,000 1:24.12 45:41.093:30.85 33.513,400 1:24.04 47:05.133:30.83 34.513,800 1:25.29 48:30.423:30.90 35.514,200 1:26.27 49:56.693:31.03 36.514,600 1:25.45 51:22.143:31.11 37.515,000 1:24.34 52:46.483:31.10 38.515,400 1:24.76 54:11.243:31.12 39.515,800 1:24.89 55:36.133:31.15 40.516,200 1:23.15 56:59.283:31.07 41.516,600 1:23.17 58:22.453:30.99 42.517,000 1:21.38 59:43.833:30.81 43.517,400 1:24.53 1:01:08.36 3:30.83 44.517,800 1:22.63 1:02:30.99 3:30.73 45.518,200 1:22.63 1:03:53.62 3:30.64 46.518,600 1:25.31 1:05:18.93 3:30.70 47.519,000 1:24.74 1:06:43.67 3:30.72 48.519,400 1:23.27 1:08:06.94 3:30.67 49.519,800 1:23.85 1:09:30.79 3:30.65 50.520,200 1:24.05 1:10:54.84 3:30.64 51.520,600 1:23.94 1:12:18.78 3:30.62 52.521,000 1:23.69 1:13:42.47 3:30.59 53.521,400 1:21.58 1:15:04.05 3:30.47 54.521,800 1:20.12 1:16:24.17 3:30.28 55.522,200 1:19.27 1:17:43.44 3:30.06 56.522,600 1:19.26 1:19:02.70 3:29.85 57.523,000 1:20.63 1:20:23.33 3:29.71 58.523,400 1:22.26 1:21:45.59 3:29.64 59.523,800 1:20.15 1:23:05.74 3:29.48 60.524,200 1:20.24 1:24:25.98 3:29.34 61.524,600 1:21.47 1:25:47.45 3:29.25 62.525,000 1:17.44 1:27:04.89 3:29.00
Re: t-and-f: Runner's arrest
Uh Ed, No one from Joisey should go anywhere near jokes about anybody else's voting problems. Absentee ballets have already gone out with the Torch's name on it-just for a start. Ed Grant wrote: . And let;s not get into the state's voting problems. Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Jones named Athlete of the Week
Run London 10-K Richmond Park, London, GBR; Sunday, September 22 MEN - 1. Paul Kosgei, KEN 28:23 2. John Cheruiyot Korir, KEN 28:27 3. Luke Kipkosgei, KEN28:38 4. Jon Brown, GBR 28:40 5. Julius Kimtai, KEN 28:47 6. Hendrik Ramaala, RSA 28:50 WOMEN - 1. Paula Radcliffe, GBR 30:38 ER/NR 2. Elana Meyer, RSA 32:40 3. Sonia O'Sullivan, IRL 33:47 4. Charlotte Dale, GBR (Jr.) 34:45 5. Louise Watson, GBR 36:33 6. Sally Budd, GBR38:29 Bob Duncan wrote: Post, Marty wrote: On Feb 17 at the World's Best 10-K in San Juan on a stinking hot day with high humidity - is there any other kind in Puerto Rico? - Radcliffe ran 30:43 in what was then the second best women's road 10-K in history. I figured that she had probably run another road competition or two during the year, but couldn't find anything on the Internet. I guess she'll be #1 in the hearts and minds of distance bigots like myself. It's a tough job for the TFN editors, as they're often comparing apples to oranges. I don't think Radcliffe's 3000m loss to Szabo should count against her, as her primary events were 5000m and up. And after Chicago, assuming that she wins in another great time, you could base things on the marathon alone, with her other competitions just being icing on the cake. bob
Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Jones named Athlete of the Week
Here we go again with the duplicate messages? Regards, Martin USATF Communications wrote: Contact:Tom Surber Media Information Manager USA Track Field (317) 261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Tuesday, September 24, 2002 Jones named Athlete of the Week INDIANAPOLIS Five-time Olympic medalist Marion Jones has been named USA Track Fields Athlete of the Week after completing an undefeated season with her 100-meter win Friday at the 2002 IAAF World Cup in Madrid, Spain. A 20-minute downpour before Jones stepped into the blocks left her lane (lane one) with slushy footing and standing water. After three false starts (including one by her) Jones won the race in 10.90 seconds to finish 2002 with her first unbeaten season ever. (She lost long jump competitions in 1998-2000 and lost the 100m World Championship in 2001). Tayna Lawrence of the Americas was second to Jones in 11.06 seconds. Jones ends the 2002 campaign tied for the second-fastest womens 100m time in the world this season (10.84) and she owns seven of the eight fastest times in the world this year. Her 22.11 at 200-meters is the worlds best this season and her 400m win (50.46) at Mt. SAC in April made her the third-fastest American at that distance in 2002. Only Jearl Miles-Clark and Michelle Collins were faster. This marks the second time this season that Jones has been named USATFs Athlete of the Week. She also earned the designation August 27 after defeating reigning world 100m champion Zhanna Pintusevich Block at the Norwich Union Grand Prix on August 23 in London, England. Jones ran away with the race in 10.97 seconds. Pintusevich-Block was a distant second in 11.11. Other U.S. winners at the World Cup in Madrid included Gail Devers, who ended one of her finest seasons in leading the womens 100m hurdles from start to finish and breaking the tape in 12.65 seconds. On the mens side, Olympic silver medalist Adam Nelson won the shot put with a throw of 20.80 meters/68 feet, 3 inches, James Carter won the 400m hurdles in 48.27 seconds and 2001 World Championships silver medalist Savante Stringfellow, defeated world and Olympic champion Ivan Pedroso of the Americas with a leap of 8.21m/26-11.75. Team USAs mens 4x100m relay squad of Jon Drummond, Jason Smoots, Kaaron Conwright and Coby Miller ran a World Cup record of 37.95 seconds to easily beat the Americas, who finished second in 38.32. By finishing as the runner-up in the team competition, Team USAs men had their best finish since they won the World Cup in 1989. 2002 USA decathlon champion Tom Pappas also turned in an outstanding performance this past weekend by defeating Czechoslovakias world record holder Roman Sebrle to win the 2002 DecaStar in Talence, France. Pappas grabbed the lead on the first day of competition by winning the high jump with a clearance of 2.12 meters/6 feet-11.5 inches. He held the lead the rest of the way in totaling 8,525 points for the victory. Sebrle was the runner-up with 8,417 points. Also at Talence, 2002 U.S. champion and 2001 World Championships bronze medalist Shelia Burrell finished third in the heptathlon with 6,085 points. Now in its second year, USATFs Athlete of the Week program is designed to recognize performers at all levels of the sport. USATF names a new honoree each week and features the athlete on the USATF Web site. Selections are based on top performances and results from the previous week. 2002 USATF Athlete of the Week winners: January 3, Jim Garcia; January 8, Mary Louise Michelsohn; January 15, Tamara Diles; January 22, Miguel Pate; January 29, Regina Jacobs; February 5, Jeff Hartwig; February 12, Meb Keflezighi; February 19, Curt Clausen; February 26, Jeff Hartwig; March 5, Nicole Teter; March 12, Jeff Hartwig; March 19, Aretha Hill; March 26, Deena Drossin; April 2, Kim Fitchen; April 9, Deena Drossin; April 16, Khalid Khannouchi; April 23, Kenta Bell; April 30, Suzy Powell; May 7, Deena Drossin; May 14, Savante Stringfellow; May 21, Adam Nelson; May 28, Kevin Toth; June 4, Lashinda Demus; June 11, Anna Norgren Mahon; June 18, Molly Huddle; June 25, Sanya Richards; July 2, Savante Stringfellow; July 9, Nicole Teter; July 16, Maurice Greene; July 23, Lashinda Demus; July 30, Kerron Clement; August 6, Nate McDowell; August 13, Phil Raschker; August 20, James Carter; August 27, Marion Jones; September 3, Colleen De Reuck; September 10, Suzy Favor Hamilton; September 17, Tim Montgomery; September 24, Marion Jones. BEST MARKS WEEK ENDING SEPT. 22 (Note - all marks except decathlon/heptathlon are from the World Cup in Madrid, ESP on 9/20-21) MEN 100 - 10.10 Jon Drummond 200 - 20.32 Ramon Clay 400 - 45.46 Alvin Harrison 800 - 1:45.14 David Krummenacker 1500 - 4:05.82 Seneca Lassiter 3000 - 8:10.66 Bolota Asmerom
t-and-f: Duplicate messages
Now I have 2 more messages from Tuesday-one from Ed Grant and one from John Sun? They are duplicates. Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Pugh obit
Mr. Pugh became track and field coach at the University of British Columbia in 1964, transforming a mediocre program into one of the best in the land. UBC teams won 25 Canada West titles in cross-country running and track and field during his 23-year tenure. As well, 14 of his student athletes would compete at the Olympics. http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20020921/FCPUGH/Comment/comment/comment_temp/4/4/10/ Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: U.S. Athlete May Be Disciplined - Sources
I don't agree if it displaces someone else. Although, obviously, in some cases the particular national federation is in on the decision. Still not fair on an athlete by athlete basis. I suspect if it happened in the UK, US and/or Canada, there would be the same uproar as now. I can't speak for the US or the UK but I really can't see Sully and Hood sacrificing either one of themselves for the other if they manage to again get themselves into such a position. It's absurd on its' face. And we are supposed to be the polite bunch. Regards, Martin Kebba Tolbert wrote: If somone else wants a rabbit in the Oly or WC's then they need to get a countryman to the final. --Kebba _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
t-and-f: Re: TF WC 1500
My first reaction was that he must have been going for it. Must have been. It was the World Cup after all. Turns out it was a pacing job. I wonder if anyone else wanted to go? Martin J. Dixon wrote: Check out the 800 split. Some serious piano carrying happening here. http://www.iaaf.org/WCP02/results/gender=M/discipline=1500/index.htmx Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
Nah. We never compare distance results. Some postings to this list. Why didn't people that are all upset by the 100 analysis also come leaping to Ndereba's defence. Radcliffe was nine seconds slower. Shouldn't that be the end of the discussion? Regards, Martin Her time of 2:18.56 was hailed as the greatest performance ever in marathon history That this record survived should take nothing away from Radcliffe's outstanding 2:18:55 effort, in a women-only race it must be an intrinsically superior performance. Paula Radcliffe erased every women's Marathon record on the books bar Catherine Ndereba's 2:18:47 which, HOWEVER, was set in a mixed race at Chicago. Only Kenya's Catherine Ndereba had ever run faster than Radcliffe when she clocked 2:18.47 in Chicago last year, but that was in a mixed race where she was paced by men and so the London organisers are recognising Radcliffe's time as a women's world record. Richard McCann wrote: As another post said, we don't try to make similar comparisons between distance races where varying conditions have substantial influence.
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
But using the arguments already made about conditions impacting people in different ways, some people are better front runners and run better without the company. An attempt is being made here to determine which performance is superior using just one criteria. Regards, Martin Dan Kaplan wrote: I'll venture a guess... Different scenarios. The marathon example is more like deciding what a legal wind assistance cutoff should be -- is the pacing by men outside the rules? No attempt is being made (that I can see) to convert an assisted time to an unassisted one or vice versa, just to decide if the assisted one counts as a record. Dan --- Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nah. We never compare distance results. Some postings to this list. Why didn't people that are all upset by the 100 analysis also come leaping to Ndereba's defence. Radcliffe was nine seconds slower. Shouldn't that be the end of the discussion? Regards, Martin Her time of 2:18.56 was hailed as the greatest performance ever in marathon history That this record survived should take nothing away from Radcliffe's outstanding 2:18:55 effort, in a women-only race it must be an intrinsically superior performance. Paula Radcliffe erased every women's Marathon record on the books bar Catherine Ndereba's 2:18:47 which, HOWEVER, was set in a mixed race at Chicago. Only Kenya's Catherine Ndereba had ever run faster than Radcliffe when she clocked 2:18.47 in Chicago last year, but that was in a mixed race where she was paced by men and so the London organisers are recognising Radcliffe's time as a women's world record. Richard McCann wrote: As another post said, we don't try to make similar comparisons between distance races where varying conditions have substantial influence. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Average stride length
I believe the cadence for a reasonably fit runner is about 100 left foot strikes per minute and this changes very little no matter what the speed. So a runner going at a 7:00 pace(if my math is right) would have a stride length of 3 feet 9 inches. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, for people in the normal range of height, stride length while running is not related to height. sideshow
Re: t-and-f: thin sprinters
A cynic would probably have a ready explanation for the thinning sprinters syndrome. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Listers, I am sorry to hear of Bob Hayes's death. Growing up in the 1970's I learned to think of Bob Hayes as the best sprinter ever, and his build (6', 190 lb, according to Justin Clouder's bio) the ideal sprinter's build. Now Tim Montgomery (5'10, 155 lbs, according to his USATF bio) has the world record, even though from his height and weight you might guess he was a distance runner. Does TM have an unusually slender physique for a world class 100-meter man, or am I merely the last to notice that sprinters are getting thinner? Jim Reardon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Correlations and Models and Performance
It may not be scientific but people DO try to compare distance performances. Compare Lopes' dismantling of the best runners of the world in the heat and humidity of LA to the rabbited WR Rotterdam performances with perfect weather. I don't need a slide rule to tell me what was more impressive. Some truths are self-evident. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard wrote; As another post said, we don't try to make similar comparisons between distance races where varying conditions have substantial influence. Well, for a correlation to be meaningful, it needs to be relatively universal. The nice thing about physical forces such as wind and air density is that they can be modelled using basic aerodynamic principles. For example, I have not ever seen a correction factor for humidity in distance races, but that effect might be just as strong as altitude up to 5000 feet. But your correction factor for humidity, or even altitude, aren't really modelled - they're correlations based on observation of different data sets. Thus, a model of altitude effects on distance runners would require an evaluation of the difference in blood-oxygen transport as a function of differing O2 partial pressure in the air, and the limitations on workload due to lactate threshold in the face of reduced oxygen availability to the muscles. Problem is, different athletes have wildly different VO2 maxes, different lactate threshold levels, different efficiencies. Thus, your models' utility will be shot to hell, unless you can also lab test all the athletes and gather a range of cardiovascular and kinesthetic data on them. As for humidity - that's even worse. Individual runners responses to heat and humidity are enormous - you could start playing with factors like cooling response and muscle debilitation due to heat stress and such - but body fat and dermal vascularization and temporary heat acclimation all play huge roles. I think adding corrections is going the wrong way. I think we need to expand the acceptable conditions to recognize that we can't accurately measure the differences, and we can't precisely estimate the effects. Awww, hell. Corrections are fun to play with. And for those who compare TF to other sports and angst that track nurds are trying to read too much into things, note that in baseball Jeff Kent was elected MVP of the National League back in 2000 while hitting .334 with 33 HR and 125 RBI, while Todd Helton was way back in 5th in the voting while hitting .372, 42 HR, and 147 RBI. Some of that is positional - Kent plays 2B and Helton 1B - but much of it was because MVP voters understand that someone who plays half their games in Colorado has a huge advantage. Interest and understanding of the effects that different conditions have on performance are part and parcel of enjoying sports that are statistically based. Baseball sabremetricians construct models of park effects so they can compare performances at Pac Bell and Wrigley and Fenway. That's the type of things that sports fanatics do, and the type of things they argue about. (Incidentally, fwiw, those are really correlations, since what they're doing is taking the large amount of data generated in each park each year and churning it) Phil
Re: t-and-f: Why not just enjoy?
How, specifically, does the latest discussion kill our sport? Now that this has been going on for a couple of days, what do you predict will be the impact on attendance at meets and television ratings? How, exactly, will this phenomenon take place? If you can give me any kind of argument that even remotely makes sense instead of just blanket generalizations I, for one, will be the first to tell Jonas and others to stop. Regards, Martin Michael Holloway wrote: Enjoy the moment This is truly what kills our sport, the moment someone does something special the first thing out of everyones mouth is a negative. After watching the race last night we should simply give Tim credit for a wonderful performance. Enjoy it for what it is and also lets enjoy the pursuit of a new record. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/16/02 03:16PM In the two days since Montgomery ran 9.78 -- a story which made the front sports page of the Tribune -- the people on the list have dissected, questioned, recalculated, shaken inside out and generally been turned into an achievement for discussion by mathematicians, aeronautical engineers, astrophysicists and everyone but sports fans. It's the same when people tear apart great marathons because of tailwinds and elevation drops and courses that don't resemble parallelograms. And you wonder why the general public has lost interest in the sport? The public still gets off on the notion of world's fastest human. Unless someone has evidence of a major flaw in recording Montgomery's time (like the guy in front of the wind gauge when Pedroso jumped in Sestriere), why shouldn't the people on this list, purportedly track fans, share the same simple pleasure instead of shredding the achievement into meaningless slivers? Philip Hersh Olympic Sports Writer Chicago Tribune
Re: t-and-f: Why not just enjoy?
Props to Tim! He one fast dude! Is that better? I just did an informal survey of several people around my office: Question-Did you know that the 100 meter record was recently broken?-most answered yes Question-Were you aware that there is an internet chat group that has been dissecting the record and what, if any, impact will this discussion or, for that matter, any discussion and/or quotes about the credibility of the record have on your impression of track in general?-most answered wtf? As far as everybody debating Jonas, good luck. He does this for a living. A sample of his web page: http://desert.jsd.claremont.edu/~newt/track/index.html Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: How, specifically, does the latest discussion kill our sport? I don't think it exactly kills the sport, but it certainly detracts from it. It detracts from the sport to have pretty much every World Record followed by a but, or a however, as in say Tim Montgomery set a new world record of 9.78 seconds however, thanks to the presence of favorable tailwind and a suspiciously fast reaction time, track experts rate this performance as actually no better than the 15th best. The opinion of insiders is often consulted for articles in the general press and for TV, and we often do see them add some of our own same buts and howevers to their pieces. No one has any figures on lost attendance due to this, but it's reasonable to conclude that it does the sport no good to constantly downgrade the magnitude of its own magnificent achievements. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Webb's Marathon Debut (was Viren article and journalism)
I'd say it was a very foolishly written and/or edited article-note the thread that I was perpetuating. Someone on letsrun thought it would have been a good Onion article which is true. The real question is whether or not Shorter actually believed that Webb was going to run one. Sounds like one of those morning radio show phone call jokes. Regards, Martin Wayne T. Armbrust wrote: I thought Martin was kidding until I read the article. This is the dumbest idea I have heard of in a long time. The volume of long contact time training necessary to run a fast marathon will end any chance he may have as a world class middle distance runner. Unless there is some reason to believe that he has more aptitude as a marathoner than as a middle distance runner this is a very foolish decision, in my opinion. Martin J. Dixon wrote: Here I go again being persnickety and nauseating: Webb is scheduled to make his marathon debut next month in Chicago. Shorter suspects that Webb has made a good decision. http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/4084391.htm -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: Why???
No but distance races in tough conditions are handicapped all the time to point out how great a run they were despite the conditions. The knuckleheads don't play favourites. Regards, Martin malmo wrote: Tim Montgomery had ideal conditions and and ideal start. I don't get the point? That's the stuff records are about. Perfection. What then do you say when the distance guys get 65 degrees, still air, low humidity, a fantastic field, great pacesetters on a perfect track in a stadium full of rabid fans with a million dollar purse.? Does one of you nuckleheads come up with a perfect race handicap to down play the results? Why are we allowing the butchering of a world record with all of this? Tim had the best of conditions that EVERY sprinter PRAYS FOR! A 2.0 tailwind a dayum near perfect reaction time. I am not a sub 10 sprinter, but running in the pacific northwest area where headwinds are stronger than a 2.0, I want a tailwind...and it can be over the legal limit and if the wind dectector breaks or have a bad day, then so be it...i will use that time as a PR. As far as anticipating the gun, we all do it...we just dont get caught...so does that make it wrong? The object of the race is to win and in doing so, get a fast time...which is what he did. As long as the person does NOT move before the gun sounds, it should be legal... .001 Congrats Tim Montgomery...u are now the world record holder and everyone is chasing u and that record __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
t-and-f: More on Foot
What Fred did with Bruce [Kidd], bringing up a young runner who could compete with mature men, changed running in the world. It was after that we saw the United States start to produce really talented people who could run world-class races right out of high school, such as Jim Ryun and Steve Prefontaine http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20020912/SOBFO/Front/frontpage/frontSports_temp/3/3/5/ Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Re: TF More on Foot
And set on a cinder track which is worth 5 or 6 seconds. I suspect Pre's 13:39.6 was on an all weather but I don't know. Of course, Lindgren's 13:04 3 miler is superior to both. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kidd, still holds the Canadian junior record for 5K, an impressive 13:43 set back in 1962. Mario Quoting Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What Fred did with Bruce [Kidd], bringing up a young runner who could compete with mature men, changed running in the world. It was after that we saw the United States start to produce really talented people who could run world-class races right out of high school, such as Jim Ryun and Steve Prefontaine http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20020912/SOBFO/Fron t/frontpage/frontSports_temp/3/3/5/ Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: GOOD track field movies/books?
Jericho Mile-1979. Strauss starred-Mann directed-pre Heat, Thief, Manhunter(the first Hannibal Lector movie) and of course Miami Vice. Great movie. The strains of Sympathy to the Devil can easily get you out the door. Book-Once A Runner-the 400 repeats work-out is a classic. The Olympian is better written but not as good if you are a runner. Regards, Martin FJ LEE wrote: Thanks for all the help I got in remembering the name of the novel/movie The Games. I noticed that most responders agreed that it was pretty bad, both in written and film form, which got me curious -- can anyone think of any truly good track field movies or books? wasn't there a movie about a convict who runs a sub 4-minute mile time- trial in jail, and then throws his spikes over the fence (i.e. the freedom side) as the final scene? I think it was the late 70's-early 80's? How can we forget Golden Girl with Susan Anton... the first person to triple in the sprints.. 100-200-400? Marion, are you out there? JL
Re: t-and-f: Hoax was FW: Virus Info you should not ignore
Unbelievable. Do people still fall for this stuff? Go here: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html Or here: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q322993 Tip-check this stuff out before forwarding on and send this type of message back to the person that sent it to you in the first place. Regards, Martin Bobby Van Allen wrote: sorry bout this...but just forwarding info about a virus which was on my computer i guess too. Take it for what you want -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:17 AM To: Evan Mugmon; Tony Mota; Carol Moore Cc: NCCI NCCI; Estelle Minor; Doug Miller; Moshe Milich; Hugh McConnell; Judy Mast; Tony Marshall Subject: Virus Info you should not ignore Please give this your immediate attention. I thought, perhaps, that I didn't have this virus, also. But, in taking the advised precaution, I followed the directions, found that it WAS there, and subsequently deleted it very easily. Molly Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:02 PM Subject: Fwd: Virus information you should not ignore with easy to fix instructions Subject: Virus found on my C drive, which means it's in yours too. Get rid of it immed. Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:39:15 EDT You can keep the instructions below on your screen while you follow the directions. Very easy to do. I found it on my c drive and got rid of it, then emptied the recycle/trash bin too. My address book has been infected with a virus, and as a result, so has yours because your address was in my book. The virus is called jdbgmgr.exe. It cannot be detected by Norton or McAfee Anti-virus programs. It sits quietly for 14 days before damaging the system. It is sent automatically by messenger and by the address book, whether or not you send e-mails. In essence, because you are in my Address Book, you are likely to be infected. Sorry. I followed the instructions below and it was easy to get rid of. I didn't really think I'd find it, thinking it might be a nasty joke. Nope. It was there and now it's not. To get rid of this virus, do the following: 1. Go to start, then Find or Search 2. In Files/Folders, write the name jdbgmgr.exe 3. Be sure to search in your C drive 4. Click Find or Search 5. The virus has a teddy bear logo with the name jdbgmgr.exe --DO NOT OPEN 6. Right click and delete it 7. Go to the recycle bin and delete it there also. IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it was very easy to get rid of. Karl Greetings and Good Fortune... :-) from Ann :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 212-864-4894 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission and any attachments may contain confidential or legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the necessary business use of the individual(s) or entity to whom it is intended even if addressed incorrectly. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by e-mail at the address shown. You should delete this entire transmission from your files if you are not the intended recipient and you are prohibited from retaining, distributing, disclosing or using any information contained herein. Thank you for your compliance. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] 410-872-8358 office 410-707-0744 celluar
Re: t-and-f: another Olympian passes on?
Jerome Biffle? See below. Flipping through T and F News today and hadn't really noticed the non-Chinese references before as they were used wrt Paula. Maybe they were there. Is that an editorial comment on anything? http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/data/olympics/olym1952.htm Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Last night on the ESPN television network, one of those scrolling 'tickers' across the bottom of the screen flashed that the 1952 Olympic gold medalist in the long jump has died. I saw it scroll across three or four times over the next hour. I checked the AP wire right away, and they had nothing on it. Today I checked the AP wire a couple of more times, but still nothing. Same for the ESPN website. Anybody know anything about it? RT
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
Ron, In the middle of nowhere is a relative term(and therefore debatable) which I will take full and complete responsibility for. There was actually at least one other error in my post and that is that she finished 8th not 7th. I posted that correction immediately but the server gods saw fit not to pass it through. I actually tried to figure out where the race was held. I knew it was Debbie's club(don't know if it is yours) in Victoria but once the results were posted and the race was done, the background information including venue was gone-at least I couldn't find it. The middle of nowhere comment was more my take on the depth of the race. The road racing scene out there is not quite what it used to be when the Williams', Butler, your wife, McCloy, Nelson etc. etc. used to show up at road races once in a while. 350,000 people and 15:51 and 17:31 are the winning times! The horror. That, however, is a whole other thread. Regards, Martin ron bowker wrote: Martin, Speaking of journalistic inaccuracy, I'm not sure whether the reference to a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere is a statement made by yourself or a quote from your local newspaper. Regardless, I would not consider a 5 K. along the harbour in downtown Victoria (Capital of B.C., population of about 350,000, host City of the 1994 Commonwealth Games) out in the middle of nowhere. Ron Bowker At 02:37 PM 9/4/2002 -0400, Martin J. Dixon wrote: I was trying not to offend anyone. It was an observation but I stand by my statement and I have made it before and I am not just talking about track. Me thinks that it hit a little too close to home. I don't think it is arrogant to try to be accurate. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast producing 100 or so pages of newsprint on a daily basis but that article had several errors in it and the 5 hour one was glaring. An endurance athlete should have known better. If I made that many mistakes on a daily basis in my business, I would lose my client base so fast it would be shocking not to mention the constant dealings that I would be having with our insurance company. Maybe that is the standard. I don't know. Very small example. Yesterday morning, I am reading in our local paper about a girl from our area that represented Canada at the Commonwealth games in the triathlon. Our firm actually sponsors her. The paper said that she won the women's division of a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere in 16:50. I'm thinking to myself that the time seemed a little quick so I started poking around. I wanted to see the other times to see if there was some problem with the course. Here is what I found in about 2 minutes: http://pih.bc.ca/results/2002/songhees5k.html Look at the 7th place time. I pointed out the problem to the sports editor and they ran a correction. He thanked me for the information and made no editorial comments about arrogance. If you make a mistake, you fix it and try to do better the next time. You don't deflect the blame. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. James Tysell wrote: T F fans, I sent a couple of entries to the list about the Viren article to a journalist friend of mine, here in N. Calif. Here is his reaction: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he was overseas. He's definitely not some young kid. Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. another perspective.. Jim Tysell
Re: t-and-f: Interview with Lasse Viren in Sacto Bee
No offense to the writers on this list but it seems like anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous. It makes me wonder about the articles I read about which I know nothing. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: story also says blood-doping stories cropped up in '75 when in reality they had first been attached to Juha Vaatainen after his double at the Euros in '71, and were then attached to Viren in '72. Story also says that blood-doping was illegal, which it is now, but it wasn't in 1972. Heck, '72 was the first Olympiad in which STEROIDS were illegal, for crying out loud; blood-doping was not yet on the rule book radar. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
I was trying not to offend anyone. It was an observation but I stand by my statement and I have made it before and I am not just talking about track. Me thinks that it hit a little too close to home. I don't think it is arrogant to try to be accurate. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast producing 100 or so pages of newsprint on a daily basis but that article had several errors in it and the 5 hour one was glaring. An endurance athlete should have known better. If I made that many mistakes on a daily basis in my business, I would lose my client base so fast it would be shocking not to mention the constant dealings that I would be having with our insurance company. Maybe that is the standard. I don't know. Very small example. Yesterday morning, I am reading in our local paper about a girl from our area that represented Canada at the Commonwealth games in the triathlon. Our firm actually sponsors her. The paper said that she won the women's division of a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere in 16:50. I'm thinking to myself that the time seemed a little quick so I started poking around. I wanted to see the other times to see if there was some problem with the course. Here is what I found in about 2 minutes: http://pih.bc.ca/results/2002/songhees5k.html Look at the 7th place time. I pointed out the problem to the sports editor and they ran a correction. He thanked me for the information and made no editorial comments about arrogance. If you make a mistake, you fix it and try to do better the next time. You don't deflect the blame. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. James Tysell wrote: T F fans, I sent a couple of entries to the list about the Viren article to a journalist friend of mine, here in N. Calif. Here is his reaction: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he was overseas. He's definitely not some young kid. Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. another perspective.. Jim Tysell
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
One other thing that our anonymous friend did other than making me fall for the bait is that he selectively edited my statement. I said it seems like A perception, in other words. But then SOME journalists(no one on this list!) will use that trick too-take people out of context for their own purposes. Regards, Martin Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. . . . . . Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. The first statement is quite an ignorant one - anyone who's ever covered baseball or football should never complain about the data in track and field. And many of the sports talk shows that I have had the misfortune to listen to make the track and field list positively uplifting by comparison. Proper journalism really has very little to do with what's important to hardcore fans and it's unfortunate that this guy doesn't get that. As for the second statement, that is one of those loaded observations - there's no way to respond without sounding like one is proving the author's point. But if the alternative is to be silent while standards keep going further and further down, then I'd rather be an arrogant SOB who cares about quality and attention to detail and who demands more of people than mediocrity. If I (or many other people) made these kind of errors in my job, I wouldn't have a job for long. The statement reminds me of what many intelligent adolescents have to go through - peer pressure to avoid showing any use of the brain whatsoever. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Interview with Lasse Viren in Sacto Bee
I shook my head at this statement. Couldn't believe I had forgotten it. Turns out I hadn't. Regards, Martin In the 1976 Olympics, Viren also finished fifth in the marathon, five hours after his 5,000-meter win. Richard McCann wrote: http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/story/4246803p-5268220c.html Richard McCann Coach, Golden Valley Harriers http://www.goldenvalleyharriers.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GVH/ PA USATF Club No. 38-0135 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (530) 756-0626 -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender.
Re: t-and-f: Joe McCluskey
Someone else from his era: Lausanne, Switzerland -- Sylvio de Magalhaes Padilha, a Brazilian sportsman and former member of the International Olympic Committee, has died. He was 93. Sylvio de Magalhaes Padilha was a wonderful athlete and a great sports leader who contributed greatly to the development of sport in Brazil and South America, IOC president Jacques Rogge said in a statement. A career army officer, Mr. de Magalhaes Padilha competed in sprint events and long jump, representing Brazil in the 1932 and 1936 Olympic Games and reaching the final of the 400 metres in 1936. He also was a Brazilian basketball champion. He became an IOC member in 1964 and served for more than 30 years, including as an IOC vice-president from 1975 to 1978. He also was a former president of the Brazilian Olympic Committee. AP Ed Grant wrote: Netters: An era ended with the death of Joe McCluskey. McCluskey was one of the great gentlemen of the sport and his competitive career lasted well into his 70s if not 80s. (He even had a PV pit built in his backyard, so he could practice that event for master's competitions. It was noted that he was 3rd in the 1932 SC, but he was actually in 2nd place when that race shoulkd have ended; it was run an extra lap. He would no doubt have qualified in 1940, but no formal trials were held that year for track and field, as they were in some other sports. Ad he tried again in 1948, finishing not that far out of the money/ He was also the first track coach at my alma mater, St. Peter's College, doing it as a favor to the dean of the school Father Robert Gannon, who later became president of Joe's alma mater, Fordham. As an amateur, he received no pay for his services. Ed Grant
Re: t-and-f: USATF News Notes: August 30, 2002
Someone on a list up here suggested a little tongue in check that Marion enter the 400 in Berlin and her presence alone would be enough to psyche out Guevara. Is that technically and practically possible? I suspect not even if she could get into the race given that the 100 would probably be after the 400? Regards, Martin With her victory in the 100 meters at Brussels, Jones, along with Hicham El Guerrouj (M-1,500m), Felix Sanchez (M-400m hurdles) and Ana Guevara (W-400 meters), remain in contention for the IAAF Golden League 50 kilos of gold. The final Golden League meet of the season is the ISTAF 2002 September 6 in Berlin.
Re: t-and-f: The ultimate penalty
If they ever clean up baseball, they should just go back a few years and reinstate all the home run records. Ed Grant wrote: Netters: What is the proper penalty for an athlete detected to have used a forbidden substance? I would think it should include a total wipeout of his previous records and championships. Just erase him (her) from the books and, if he (she) gets a second chance to compete, start from scratch. Of course, they can still laugh all the way to the bank, so I don't know how much (if any) a deterrent it would be. But it should be put into effect pronto and retroactively if possible. Ed Grant
Re: t-and-f: Why on the street? - car tromping: Once a Runner
I wonder if this punk is proud of his vandalism. Regards, Martin Hamilton, preparing for the GP Eddy Merckx, suffered a broken right collarbone and facial injuries Sunday when a car driver opened his door just as the rider was passing. http://waymoresports.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=waymoresports/Layout/Article_Type1call_page=WM_Homecall_pageid=979619472127call_pagepath=Home/Homec=Articlecid=1030446570382 malmo wrote: I don't know why you guys are so proud of your vandalism. Street punks always have a reason why they do what they do. It's still wrong. malmo
t-and-f: Radcliffe response
No particular point here. Someone will have to explain to that 10 year old kid whose mother was struck and killed by a car while running in single file, off the road and against traffic in Ellicottville N.Y. last October that there isn't a lot of sympathy for her on this list. LONDON (Reuters) - European 10,000 metres champion Paula Radcliffe has asked the IAAF to conduct random tests on her and to freeze her blood samples for future testing following media scepticism over her performances this year. http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/reuters/20020828/reu-radcliffe.html
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
Kevin and the IAAF might both be a little surprised that he dropped cross from his schedule. Must have been an impostor at worlds last year. http://www.iaaf.org/wxc01/results/data/M/XC/Rf.html Regards, Martin Dan Kaplan wrote: It seems to me that the runners who drop XC from their schedule after college do better, not worse. Two notable examples that come to mind are Kevin Sullivan and Bernard Lagat. Both of them saw their careers blossom almost immediately upon being done with XC (Lagat had a season of eligibility left, as I recall). My opinion is that it isn't the HS/college system that holds runners back, rather the emphasis on 2-3 seasons (plus summer racing for the standouts) per year. Makes it tough to step up to the next level, as I'm sure Webb would agree after this past year. Dan --- Tim Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone: I have long felt that one component that is lacking in a lot of post college runners routines is cross-country training/racing. An athlete spends 4-5 years of solid cross seasons every fall and then when they leave college they never return to cross from a training or racing standpoint. From my own experience, there are definite strength and aerobic elements gained in cross that cannot be made up by other standard training and racing. I know a lot of our top runners have continued in cross but the vast majority leave cross right out of college. I am just curious if cross or the lack of is a factor? Tim Willis (770) 939-7669 = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
I shouldn't be speaking for Kevin here because I think he is still onlist(I think he is having a posting problem) but I think he is a believer in fall cross work as a key ingredient to an all round program. I don't think he raced last fall but I'm pretty sure he trained with the Michigan guys after he finished what was a very late season(GW games and a Japan race post 9/11). Not sure what the point is about his productivity but the problem with this season was a late diagnosed injury which was discussed earlier onlist. Now Kevin could be the exception but think about guys like Billy and Lopes and how well they were running cross when they were at their peak. Regards, Martin Dan Kaplan wrote: I stand corrected. Let me rephrase that: After XC was de-emphasized from their schedule... Regina Jacobs has run one XC race that I know of each of the past two years, but I don't think many would consider that a season she is focusing on. Just guessing, but Sullivan would probably be in the same category. Besides, isn't this his least productive year since finishing college? Dan --- Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin and the IAAF might both be a little surprised that he dropped cross from his schedule. Must have been an impostor at worlds last year. http://www.iaaf.org/wxc01/results/data/M/XC/Rf.html Regards, Martin = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: running bad for you? (was street)
Maybe you're right although I doubt it but IMHO, those manipulations will make you more productive so you can get even more out of what ever ride lies before you even if that is hoisting a lot of 12 ouncers. No forget IMHO. That is a self-evident truth. Regards, Martin ghill wrote: If you got good genes, you'll live a long time. Bad genes, a short time. And all the attempts to manipulate the system through diet and/or exercise is pretty much a fraud. gh
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
I don't know if it is apropos of anything but that is when swimmers seem to hit their peak. Regards, Martin Michael Contopoulos wrote: If you think about it, it makes sense that a runner, if he started early enough and hard enough, would be at his prime in his late teens to mid 20s.
[Fwd: Autoreply: Re: t-and-f: USATF News Notes: August 5, 2002]
I think I may have just stumbled on to the problem. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you for your message. Joe Hughes is no longer employed by USATF. Your message has been forwarded to Jill Geer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Please update your address book accordingly.
t-and-f: Bob Wheeler
Joe Henderson wrote about the distance class of 72 in his weekly column and he says that he was able to account for everybody except Bob Wheeler. Anyone know? The only Olympian I can't account for is 1500 man Bob Wheeler. Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: Wanamaker?
This guy got around. Regards, Martin Beginning in 1908, Rodman Wanamaker, son of the store owner, sponsored a series of Expeditions to the American Indian http://www.indiana.edu/~mathers/new/collections/photos/wanamake.html Bloomquist, Bret wrote: Well, I looked itnto it more. Yes, same guy. From another website on the Wanamaker Mile: The Millrose Games features sprints, hurdles, middle distances, pole vault and high jump. It also includes the famed Wanamaker Mile, this year making its 77th appearance. This celebrated event received its moniker during the early part of the 1900s, when Rodman Wanamaker gave the first trophy for the popular mile-and-one-half race in 1916.
Re: t-and-f: USA Beats Great Britain, Russia
There was a dual between GB and Ger on 20/07 that went 73/2:29/3:30/4:09 and it was a 1500 so it wouldn't surprise me. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I sure hope that 1500 was a mile! Fred Finke
Re: t-and-f: 17-year-old (?) runs sub-3:33
Where and when? Can't find it anywhere on www.iaaf.org. That doesn't mean it isn't there. The fact that he likely isn't getting 250k per year makes the point. It isn't about ability. It's about marketability. Just think AK and tennis. Regards, Martin nad wilson wrote: the reason that nobody mentioned it is because he has already run at least 3:31. From: Chapman, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Chapman, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED], 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: 17-year-old (?) runs sub-3:33 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:05:37 -0500 (tounge firmly in cheek) Bet he's not getting $250k for 6 years RC (my first and last post like this - I promise) -Original Message- From: Post, Marty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:45 PM To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: t-and-f: 17-year-old (?) runs sub-3:33 Overlooked in the abundance of excellent performances at Zurich last Friday: 1500 meters - under 23 1. Alex Kipchirchir, Kenya - 3:32.95. Reported date of birth: 26 November 1984. _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm
t-and-f: test-please delete
t-and-f: Schiebler at NY
I don't know how long this has been generally known but tnfnorth and letsrun have both noted that Schiebler will be running NY this fall. There is more at: http://www.runnerschoice.com/ontario/stwm/stwmnews.htm His 27:36 merciers out to 2:08:35 and he has the experience in the half. Should be very interesting. His half time(61:18) and 5000(13:13) time both mercier out to a little over 2:09. Will Drayton's record of 2:10:09 finally go down? Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: WOW II (Radcliffe)
Maybe her bathing habits might be a more appropriate topic then? The immediate sensation is quite devastating. Ten minutes? Within six seconds I am doing laps of the hotel room, shouting obscenities at the ceiling and grasping my withered manhood with shaking hands. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/specials/european_athletics/2178643.stm Geoff Pietsch wrote: Fascinating that this track list spends more time discussing her socks than her race. In any case, Garry's point about the wind being a non-factor since Munich is enclosed, is valid. Of course it was Garry who brought up the possible wind effect: So long as the wind wasn't too nasty And, come to think of it, how totally does it block the wind if the athletes are subjected to the pouring rain? I suspect the wind can swirl a bit. And I wonder if other distance runners agree with my contention that, while rain can be helpful, a downpour - even if it doesn't leave the track ankle deep, as Garry said, still can be negative if heavy enough. As for the outkicking part, Garry seems to deliberately distort what I was saying - to set up a straw man he can then mock. Sorry but I said nothing about there being no point in racing since Radcliffe was too good. My point was that Radcliffe was too good for that field and if any had gone with her it (1)would have helped her (ask any distance runner), and (2) those particular runners would have died so the kick would have been irrelevant. I'd agree I overstated in saying flatly that no one else can run 30:01 - there are some damned tough women out there - but certainly no one in that race was ready to do so. GP From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: WOW II Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:23:35 -0700 From: Geoff Pietsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:14:13 -0400 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: WOW II (2) Yes she has often been outkicked, but no one else can run 30:01. If someone had gone with her for 5K or more it would have helped her, even if she did all the leading. And they would not have survived to do any outkicking. If that were the case, we'd never have to run races. Just ask Ron Clarke. Or even better, ask Dave Bedford, who in the summer of '71 ran 27:47.0 to move to No. 2 on the all-time world list, behind only Clarkie. He went to the Euros with a bulge of more than 25 seconds on the next man on the yearly list. And he set a kick-ass pace. But there were guys who could hang with him on this occasion (again, that's why we race; to find out) and he ended up 6th. The most illuminating part of the story is that it was written at the time in all seriousness that had Bedford stayed on the sidelines for 24 laps, just watching the other guys, and jumped into the fray for the final lap, and had run a PR 400 he still would have been 6th! gh _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: USA Masters Championships begin in Orono
with a clearance of 4.51m/14-9.50. I don't know the first thing about the PV but that looks a smidgen high. Regards, Martin USATF Communications wrote: Contact:Tom Surber Media Information Manager USA Track Field (317) 261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Thursday, August 8, 2002 USA Masters Championships begin in Orono ORONO, Maine The 2002 USA Masters Outdoor Track Field Championships began Thursday under mostly sunny skies with temperatures in the mid-seventies. The four-day event is being held at the University of Maines Clarence Beckett Family Track Field Center in Orono. Nearly 1,100 athletes are on hand to compete in five-year age groups from 30-34 to 95 and over. This marks the second time that the USA Masters Outdoor Championships have been held here. The event was also held in Orono in 1998, where eight world records and 27 national age-group records were set. In Thursdays field event competition, masters legend Phil Raschker, who has set more than 100 masters world records in her career, won the womens 55 age-group pole vault with a new world record clearance of 3.00 meters/9 feet, 10 inches. Despite a sore Achilles tendon, Raschker won the W50 pole vault at last years Championships in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, with a clearance of 4.51m/14-9.50. The Achilles injury worsened following last years Championships, causing Raschker to miss training for the next six months. Although shes pleased to begin competition in the W55 age-group this year, Raschker said shes really planning on placing her stamp on the division next year. The injury last year cost me a great deal of training time, so I m not at my best for this event, Raschker said. Im pleased to have won the pole vault today, but it shouldve been higher. The wind shifted from a headwind to a tailwind and that threw me off. Raschker also set a new world record in winning the W50 pentathlon this afternoon with a total of 4,809 points. Caryl Senn of Long Island Track Field also set a world record in winning the W40 class with 3,668 points. Other womens pentathlon national champions include Liz Pitser (W35-2,120 points), Carla Hoppie (W45-2,740 points), Anna Wlodarczyk (W50-4,809 points), Becky Sisley (W60-2,772 points) and Barbara Jordan (W65-3,556 points). Mens pentathlon champions included Jim Russ in the M45 division winning the event with 3,376 points. Fernando Roman won the M50 class with 2,801 points, with Roger Kroodsma winning the M55 group with 1,770 points. Emil Pawlik won the M60 division with 3,775 points, and Edward Oleata captured the M65 group with 3,734 points. Michael Janusey won the M40 class with 3,463 points. In other womens results, Susan Nesbihal of Bohemia TC won the W50 pole vault with a clearance of 1.25m/4-1.25 and Barbara Cleveland won the W60 division with a best of 2.45m/8-0.50. Flo Meiler cleared 1.96m/6-5 in winning the W65 division unopposed. Mens pole vault winners today included Terry Cannon (M60-3.50m/11-5.75), Deke Conklin of Greater Boston TC (M65-2.95m/9-8) and Jerry Donley (M70-2.75m/9-0.25). In womens shot put action, winners included Bernice Holland (W75-6.73m/22-1), Olga Kotelko (W83-5.88m/19-3.50), Evaun Williams (W60-11.55m/37-10.75), Christel Donley (W65-7.88m/25-10.25), Mary Towey (W50-11.13m/36-6.25), Lorraine Tucker (W55-9.82m/32-2.75) and Jane Decker (W35-10.74m/35-03). Competitors winning national championships in the mens shot put included Glenn Thompson, who successfully defended his M35 national championship with a best of 16.99m/55-9. Other winners included Tim Fua (M30-16.10m/52-10), Phillip Brusca (M75-11.10m/36-5), Robert Horsley (M80-26-2.25), LeLand McPhie (M85-7.37m/24-2.25), Wendell Palmer (M70-13.27m/43-6.50), Gerald Vaughn (M65-13.58m/44-6.75), Gary Baskett (M60-14.69/48-2.50) and Tom Gage (M55-14.36m/47-1.50). In the M50 class, Craig Shumaker of Long Strong Throwers Club won the event with a best of 15.36m/50-4.75, and Ron Summers won the M45 division with a throw of 14.12m/46-4. Warren Taylor of the Long Strong Throwers Club won the M40 group with a best of 15.34m/50-4). In this mornings 5,000 meter competitions, womens winners included Kathryn Martin in the W50 division (17:49.83), Joan Christensen (W60-25:33.50), Lois Calhoun of the Boulder Road Runners (W65-25:15.67) and Nancy Smalley, also of the Boulder Road Runners (W75-30:20.60). Additional womens winners included Monica Rossi-Montero (W30-19:34.83), Patty Murray of Ric Rojas Running (W35-17:11.52), Patty Blanchard (W40-17:14.24) and Angie Miyashiro (W45-19:16.07). In the mens 5,000-meter competition, James Sutton won the M70 title in 22:07.04. Other national champions included Jim
Re: t-and-f: more on Kim Collins test positive- story
Isn't the problem though that the low levels could just be higher levels that have been reduced as the stuff passes through his system? How do they know it isn't? Regards, Martin ghill wrote: From: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:38:55 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: more on Kim Collins test positive- story Games officials announced that Collins wouldn't face punishment because the substance, used in asthma medication to make breathing easier, wasn't performance-enhancing. He was guilty only of not declaring it. If it's not performance-enchancing and it's not illegal, why is anyone or any organization worried about it? Why test for it? Note this original quote in one story: The use of salbutamol is permitted under certain conditions and the levels found in Collins' sample was consistent with normal therapeutic use and was not considered to be performance enhancing. they're making a quantitative vs. qualitative judgment apparently. Like a DUI, some's OK, some's not. (although i guess the problem w/ most DUI characters is that some was OK, more was better :-) gh
Re: t-and-f: Guest fails drugs test
Ah to live in the good ol' U S of A. there would be a few different outcomes. 1. The kid would likely be able to compete. 2. He would likely get off. 3. We would probably never hear about it. Instead, the Canadian list gets to throw this stuff around at each other: for you to recklessly call him stupid or a cheat in my opinion is totally classless on your part. But then again I do not know you and this trait may be part of your character in all matters of life. I thought we were too polite to say that sort of thing about each other. Should be an interesting day up here. Regards, Martin Paul V. Tucknott wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/commonwealthgames2002/hi/other_sports/triathlon /newsid_2152000/2152895.stm Canadian triathlete Kelly Guest has been sent home from the Commonwealth Games after testing positive for the banned substance nandrolone. The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport (CCES) said the test was taken at the ITU Triathlon World Cup event on 14 July in Edmonton. Guest said he has been taking at least six food supplements and believes that could be the source of the drug. Most of the things I'm taking are what anyone would take to be healthy - vitamin C and Vitamin E, Guest said. The athlete born in London, Ontario - ranked 91st in the world - must still undergo a B test to confirm that traces of the stimulant are present in his body. The only people who can have some idea of what it feels like are my team-mates, the coaching staff and my family. All these people know what sport means to me and anyone who knows me, knows that I believe there is no place in sport for drugs. Canada triathlon high performance director Paul Regensburg said: Kelly has requested that his B sample be tested and they are going to do that this weekend. Triathlon team president Bill Hallett has pledged to support Kelly, through what he called a difficult time, but stressed the team's anti-drugs stance. Asked how he had learnt the shock news of his positive test, Guest replied: I had just gone for a run and when I got back to the Games Village Paul (Regensburg) took me aside and told me I had tested positive. Baffling How did I feel? I don't think that's a question that needs to be answered. It's a lot to take in, in a very short space of time. Guest's coach Lance Watson said the result of the drugs test was baffling and questioned whether there might have been any cross-contamination in the sample. It's a trace amount (of nandrolone) in his system rather than a gross performance-enhancing amount that some athletes have had in the past, Watson said. It seems like it's the little guys who get caught using a cough syrup, while the professionals (drug cheats) get away with it. It's always someone like Kelly who gets hung out to dry and his national federation is standing by him 100%. The athlete was last tested almost a year ago at the Canadian national championships.
t-and-f: CW Trash talking sprinters
THE DIVAS OF track are tenors, not sopranos. They are the Y chromosome sprinters the great drama queens, the primo donnas. Thoroughbreds, both skittish and imperious. And oh so bitchy. http://waymoresports.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=waymoresports/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1026143696366call_page=WM_CommonwealthGamescall_pageid=1027418503557call_pagepath=MoreSports/Commonwealth_Games FIRST SEMI 1.Kim Collins St.KittsNevis(TCU) 10.08 2.Mark Lewis-Francis England 10.15 3.Dwight Thomas Jamaica(Clemson) 10.16 4.Uchenna Emedolu Nigeria 10.18 SECOND SEMI 1.Dwain Chambers England 10.06 2.Deji Aliu Nigeria 10.14 3.Pierre Browne Canada(Mississippi St) 10.20 4.Jason Gardener England 10.21 Regards, Martin
t-and-f: Mary Crew Armstrong
Stumbled across this from the AP. Regards, Martin Gold-medal winner at 1932 Olympics Framingham, Mass. -- Mary Crew Armstrong, who won a gold medal at the 1932 Olympics as a member of the record-setting U.S. 400-metre relay team, died July 12 at age 88. Ms. Armstrong was 15 years old when she won the first of four straight national titles in the 36-metre dash in 1929. At the 1932 Olympics in Los Angeles, Ms. Armstrong ran the first leg of the 400 relay and gave her team a lead that led to victory and a world record. The team chose her to accept the gold medal. AP
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
Read it again. The half was to cover taxes, his agent and additional expenses. I have no idea if the article is accurate or not. I suppose the Times gets it right once in a while. I was just merely responding to the ridiculous assertion that 250,000 per year wasn't really all that much money with a conservative analysis and actually backing that point up with some facts(sans profanity). Regards, Martin Mike Prizy wrote: Half to his agent? Probably more in the range of 15 percent. Hopefully he does your investment deal. I just think he's got more beer money. Martin J. Dixon wrote: Ok let's assume that he gives up half to his agent, additional expenses and for taxes. That's probably excessive but lets go with that. That leaves 125,000US. Let's further assume that this thing doesn't start until 2003 and runs for 6 years. Let's further assume that he gets no other endorsements or incentive bonuses(probably very unreasonable). Let's then apply a discount rate of 5%. Doing some VERY QUICK calculations, that contract is worth 629,256 today. Once again, assuming a discount rate of 5%, he could buy a 30 year annuity of 40,299 per year. On average, approximately half of that would be tax-free. He also intends to go to school so there is no reason that he can't get just as good a job as he would have got even if stayed at UM and fell flat on his face as far as his running goes. It's at least arguable that he made the correct decision from a financial standpoint. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. Michael Contopoulos wrote: Does anyone know how much his agent gets? The people who he has handling his finances? etc? After taxes and paying these fees, he won't have as much money as it seems. Not to say its a bad deal. Its a great one. But Mr. Webb, based on his salary, isn't going to be as wealthy as people think. From: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:15:01 -0400 http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20020718-16634094.htm malmo wrote: Nope. malmo thinks the amount should cover the risk he takes if/when the slimy John Waters types (agents/shoe geeks) turn their backs on him if/when he becomes just another runner. malmo thinks that amount is all fantasy in the minds of some track fans. malmo malmo seems to think that if he is making enough to buy his Mom a 5 million dollar house then that is enough. I think we can safely say that is not the case. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20020718-16634094.htm malmo wrote: Nope. malmo thinks the amount should cover the risk he takes if/when the slimy John Waters types (agents/shoe geeks) turn their backs on him if/when he becomes just another runner. malmo thinks that amount is all fantasy in the minds of some track fans. malmo malmo seems to think that if he is making enough to buy his Mom a 5 million dollar house then that is enough. I think we can safely say that is not the case.
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
Ok let's assume that he gives up half to his agent, additional expenses and for taxes. That's probably excessive but lets go with that. That leaves 125,000US. Let's further assume that this thing doesn't start until 2003 and runs for 6 years. Let's further assume that he gets no other endorsements or incentive bonuses(probably very unreasonable). Let's then apply a discount rate of 5%. Doing some VERY QUICK calculations, that contract is worth 629,256 today. Once again, assuming a discount rate of 5%, he could buy a 30 year annuity of 40,299 per year. On average, approximately half of that would be tax-free. He also intends to go to school so there is no reason that he can't get just as good a job as he would have got even if stayed at UM and fell flat on his face as far as his running goes. It's at least arguable that he made the correct decision from a financial standpoint. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. Michael Contopoulos wrote: Does anyone know how much his agent gets? The people who he has handling his finances? etc? After taxes and paying these fees, he won't have as much money as it seems. Not to say its a bad deal. Its a great one. But Mr. Webb, based on his salary, isn't going to be as wealthy as people think. From: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:15:01 -0400 http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20020718-16634094.htm malmo wrote: Nope. malmo thinks the amount should cover the risk he takes if/when the slimy John Waters types (agents/shoe geeks) turn their backs on him if/when he becomes just another runner. malmo thinks that amount is all fantasy in the minds of some track fans. malmo malmo seems to think that if he is making enough to buy his Mom a 5 million dollar house then that is enough. I think we can safely say that is not the case. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: KRUMMENACKER 3:31.93!
http://www.iaaf.org/gp02/GP1Stockholm/Results/byevent.html Bobby Van Allen wrote: do you know where these results are being posted at all. Is this gonna be televised eventually somewhere in the US Bobby -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lee Nichols Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: KRUMMENACKER 3:31.93! Second to Lagat (3:31.38) at DN Galan. Now 5th fastest American all-time. Same meet: Nicole Teter beat Maria Mutola by .1 in the 800. -- Lee Nichols Assistant News Editor The Austin Chronicle 512/454-5766, ext. 138 fax 512/458-6910 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Janine Whitlock
Further to previous messages, the exact press release. No mention of her legal team yet. Regards, Martin 14 July 2002 Further to media reports today, UK Athletics wishes to confirm the following in relation to current anti-doping cases. Janine WHITLOCK * Date of test- - 16 June 2002 - in competition test - Commonwealth Games Trials, Manchester * Adverse finding of a metabolite of methandienone in A sample reported to UK Athletics by UK Sport on 3 July 2002 * B sample analysis - athlete has currently not requested this, she has until 19 July to do so. * Independent Drug Advisory Officer (DAO) appointed to review whether there is a case to answer. Currently UK Athletics is waiting for further information from the athlete before the DAO can review the case. Deadline for this information is 23 July 2002. If the DAO believes there is a case to answer, then the athlete will be suspended pending the result of the independent Disciplinary Committee. If the DAO does not believe there is a case to answer, then the case will be dismissed. Perriss WILKINS * Date of test - out of competition test on 21 May 2002 * Adverse finding of a metabolite of methandienone in A sample reported to UK Athletics by UK Sport on 31 May 2002 * DAO reviewed the case and decided there was a case to answer. Athlete suspended on 11 June 2002 * B sample analysis requested by athlete and this confirmed A sample * An independent Disciplinary Committee has been appointed to review and hear all evidence and will sit shortly. UK Athletics anti-doping procedures In brief, UK Athletics anti-doping procedures are as follows: * Adverse finding reported in the A sample - UK Athletics advised by either UK Sport or IAAF * UK Athletics notifies the athlete and requests an explanation. * B sample analysis - if requested by the athlete * Decision made by the independent Drug Advisory Officer as to whether there is a case to answer. * If no, case dismissed.If yes, athlete suspended and an Independent Disciplinary Committee appointed to review and hear all evidence. * Hearing held. Athlete cleared of any offence or period on ineligibility or warning for lesser offences imposed. * Decision passed to the IAAF
Re: t-and-f: Re: Dubin comm in US
The lesson of all of this is that Ben should have phoned his lawyers instead of gone home. As far as Slaney goes, don't make me laugh. There is no difference between her and Ben. They are both cheats. Ben took it like a man and Mary-well...she is still crying about 1984 let alone the drug test. Go back and reread all the posts about Ben. Now who is rehabilitating whom. See the link below. If you want to live litigiously, you die litigiously. Oh man, I could go on and on. Just reviewing some of the posts. How about this one reworded: ...and she has the silver medal to prove it... Just for starters. Sorry Garry, you are absolutely right about sucking it up but the hypocrisy of some of these America-first messages is mind-boggling to me. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/athletics/news/2001/10/01/slaney_case_ap/index.html Regards, Martin Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Sorry, but NONE of these athletes lost millions in income, as Ben did, from their suspensions. I doubt Barnes and Hunter combined earned a million total in their competitive careers. Mitchell was already at the end of his career and was only earning pick up change. Nope, Johnson had a much higher profile than ANY U.S. athlete who has been tagged yet. Slaney is the only one close, and she was finally vindicated for what was the stupidest type of test that the IAAF could cook up. Well. . . I'm not sure that most people would say that Slaney was vindicated. As far as I'm concerned she is in exactly the same situation as Mitchell. She tested positive, challenged the science, was cleared by USATF, and was not cleared by the IAAF. The only difference was that Slaney caused 10 times the bad press. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: CanAm 2002 Concludes with Les Internationaux de Demi-Fond de Montreal II
Actually, there is nothing wrong with that performance if all the facts are at your disposal. He only started doing a bit of mileage and light workouts a month ago after recovering from an undiagnosed stress fracture that he has had since the indoor season. We should all come off an injury so poorly. The Future Of US Middle Distance Running has only run slightly faster this season. The weather wasn't the best either. Mike reports that the powers that be are deciding whether to still send him to the CW games. Regards, Martin Wayne T. Armbrust wrote: What's the problem with Sully? He should be able to do repeats at that pace. Michael Scott wrote: CanAm 2002 Concludes with Les Internationaux de Demi-Fond de Montreal II Canadian Olympian and national record holder Kevin Sullivan fell short in his bid to claim a Commonwealth Games berth and had his hands full holding off his protogee Nathan Brannen. Sullivan took over the lead with 500 remaining, while Brannen made a late charge and narrowly missed catching his mentor at the line, 3:43.58 to 3:43.64. -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
t-and-f: 'nuff said
10.49. Regards, Martin ps-no one is trying to rehabilitate Ben. Take a look at the Can list archives if you want to see people eating their young. As recently as last year, someone suggested burning in hell wasn't a good enough punishment. The exact quote: In my tamer and more accepting moments, I still pray that Ben burns in hell. This from a ranked Can athlete.
Re: t-and-f: RE: Johnson on the list
Someone who knows! Anyone familiar with the situation knows that Ben should not have been caught in the manner he was at Seoul. What entities and/or individuals had an interest in seeing him go down? Charlie and his crew were as good as or better than some of the other medallists that year at their drug craft. They were just naive at how far some would go to nail him. Regards, Martin Dan Kaplan wrote: --- Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Johnson was caught breaking the rules That's highly debatable. 1) He wasn't caught when he was breaking the rules. 2) When he was caught, it appears to have been for rules he didn't break, or at least rules that weren't actually known rules at the time. That's not to say Ben wasn't guilty of cheating -- no question that he was -- but attempts to color it black and white (almost always an argument between US and international list members, by the way) is laughable at best. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender.
Re: t-and-f: Greene sets career record at Rome
Jonas, Your point is very well taken but lost on(some of) this bunch. Until the US and other countries are willing to go through the same self-induced rectal examination as the Dubin inquiry was, they are not credible. You weren't onlist yet but when Pound started to rattle a few chains, some on this list were comparing him to Osama. So be forewarned that is what you are dealing with here. Regards, Martin Jonas Mureika wrote: So do a number of American athletes from as recently as Sydney, and going back to Seoul. Shouldn't we remove those, as well? I thought we wanted a level playing field. J. On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Post, Marty wrote: and Ben has an Olympic gold medal to prove it.
Re: t-and-f: Greene sets career record at Rome
Do a Dubin. Take it out of the hands of the sporting bodies. Steroids are getting more and more play in the media. Time to have a congressional inquiry. Everybody knows who is/was likely dirty. Subpoena them or other witnesses familiar with them to testify under penalty of perjury. Let them take the 5th. Draw your own conclusions. Regards, Martin Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Your point is very well taken but lost on(some of) this bunch. Until the US and other countries are willing to go through the same self-induced rectal examination as the Dubin inquiry was, they are not credible. You weren't onlist yet but when Pound started to rattle a few chains, some on this list were comparing him to Osama. So be forewarned that is what you are dealing with here. Regards, Martin Until the IAAF starts enforcing its own rules for all federations, pretty much any mark is in question. Period. There might be a dozen federations around the world that truly have serious random drug testing, but medals come from a lot more than just those countries. I'm still not sure what the rest of the world expects USATF to tell the court that would award the multi-million dollar lawsuit if they released the name. As I said before, if the IAAF or IOC is willing to come up with the money to pay for any potential suit, then I'd be in favor of releasing the name for the good of the sport, despite the fact that it is against the USATF rule at the time (which was passed at the demand of the USOC). But I see little point in the U.S. backing down in a situation where they are clearly being used as an example by the (IOC and to a lesser extent the IAAF) to distract attention from all the other problems in that august organization. - Ed
t-and-f: Ben's coach
A strangely coincidental posting to the Can list. Regards, Martin Subject: TF Speed Seminar in Vancouver Date:Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:12:35 -0700 From: Derek M. Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For any interested individuals residing in Western Canada: --- Charlie Francis Speed Training Seminar August 24-25, 2002 Vancouver, BC Charlie Francis, one of the top speed coaches in the world, makes limited appearances throughout the year in North America. His influence is still being felt throughout the Track and Field and professional sports world. We are lucky enough to have the opportunity to hear him speak in Vancouver this summer. Dont miss this unprecedented event. Seminar Content Find out why Charlie Francis is still one of the most sought after speed training consultants in the professional sports world. Charlies presentation will cover all topics pertinent to speed training, including: - Maximum velocity mechanics - Sprint start technique and acceleration development - Weight training for speed development - Explosive power and plyometric training - Periodization and planning through Vertical Integration - Recovery and regeneration techniques - Electronic muscle stimulation and other training tools - Speed development for non-track sports - And, much more Charlie is in the process of writing a new, much anticipated, comprehensive training manual. A good portion of the seminar content will be from that new publication. This training manual is due to be released later this year. Seminar Cost The 2-day seminar will be held from 9am to 5pm on both days. 2-Day Seminar Fee: $475.00 Cdn ($315.00 US) Charlies seminars in the United States have been priced as high as $550.00 US for a weekend. We have been able to secure a lower price for attendees for this one-time opportunity. We are sure you will walk away with your moneys worth. Registration fees must be paid by July 29th in order to reserve your space for this limited seating seminar. Seats are selling quickly. The seminar will be held in the Greater Vancouver area. We are currently trying to secure a location near a suitable track facility, to allow for demonstrations of training activities. When a specific location is determined, we will notify all registered guests as soon as possible. Seminar Contact For information on how to register for the Charlie Francis seminar, please leave your name and contact information (phone/e-mail) at either of the following options: Voice Mail Message Service: 604-686-7162 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] We will contact you as soon as possible to inform you on payment options. Information on the seminar will also be posted on Charlies website at www.CharlieFrancis.com. Be sure to check the website for information on training, Charlies books and his discussion forum.
Re: t-and-f: Greene sets career record at Rome
Call it whatever you want. We did it in 1989. People testified that didn't have to testify and records were rewritten. A lot of countries could take a page out of that book including the US. Yes, a lot of countries are a lot worse than the US but spare me the moral indignation from US listers about Ben Johnson which is really what started this. Regards, Martin Mike Prizy wrote: This was done once before. I believe it was called Salem Witch Trials. Martin J. Dixon wrote: . Everybody knows who is/was likely dirty. Subpoena them or other witnesses familiar with them to testify under penalty of perjury. Let them take the 5th. Draw your own conclusions. Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Your point is very well taken but lost on(some of) this bunch. Until the US and other countries are willing to go through the same self-induced rectal examination as the Dubin inquiry was, they are not credible. You weren't onlist yet but when Pound started to rattle a few chains, some on this list were comparing him to Osama. So be forewarned that is what you are dealing with here. Regards, Martin Until the IAAF starts enforcing its own rules for all federations, pretty much any mark is in question. Period. There might be a dozen federations around the world that truly have serious random drug testing, but medals come from a lot more than just those countries. I'm still not sure what the rest of the world expects USATF to tell the court that would award the multi-million dollar lawsuit if they released the name. As I said before, if the IAAF or IOC is willing to come up with the money to pay for any potential suit, then I'd be in favor of releasing the name for the good of the sport, despite the fact that it is against the USATF rule at the time (which was passed at the demand of the USOC). But I see little point in the U.S. backing down in a situation where they are clearly being used as an example by the (IOC and to a lesser extent the IAAF) to distract attention from all the other problems in that august organization. - Ed
Re: t-and-f: Canadian Championships
http://www.athleticsalberta.com/2002_Nationals/RESULTS/results.htm Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: anybody got the URL of a site where the results were posted? thanx gh
Re: t-and-f: Baseball, track and drugs
Actually, last week's ruling had no impact. It had already been ruled awhile back that athletes could be tested - the Supreme Court just extended testing to the chess team and debate club last week. I think the point to be culled from the fact that the geeks can now be tested is an environmental and attitudinal one. People may be moving in the direction of zero tolerance. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ed Grant wrote: Actually, drugs don;t do that much for baseball players if you except the home runs. Sorry, can't let this one stand. Steroids could obviously be used to help speed recovery from injuries, and it you think about recovery time for a pitcher who has just been throwing 90+ mph fastballs for 110+ pitches, there should be a huge benefit. It is still a game of skills rather than athleticism. (Remember, Jim Thorpe was basically a flop at it). But there are an awful lot of people with tremendous skills working hard at trying to earn the millions of dollars available to the average MLB player. Thus, athleticism becomes a factor. The major leagues today are quite inferior to the 50s and 60s when there were far fewer teams and when baseball was still King of the Hill among teams sports. Baseball today is so far superior to baseball during the 60's that it's silly. It is not only drugs that acount for all the home runs; it is also smaller ball parks, Ever check out the dimensions of Ebbets Field? 297 feet to right field. The Polo Grounds? 257 feet to right. Pac Bell runs 307' to right. You want to guess how many HRs Barry Bonds would have hit with those shorter distances? the fact that no one cares any more about how often a player strikes out; the two greatest home run hitters from a career view, Aaron and Ruth, had very low strikout to home run ratios; But you know what? That doesn't matter much. For example, while it's true that Bonds strikes out a higher rate per HR than Aaron (Aaron - 1.86 K/HR, Bonds - 2.23 K/HR), Bonds has made far fewer total outs per HR (Bonds - 10.0 outs/HR, Aaron 11.4 outs/HR). And if you hate K's so much, remember that striking out is usually better than hitting into a double play (Aaron - hit into 328 career double plays; Bonds - has hit into 127 double plays). I also wonder what effect the recent Supreme Court ruling will have on future testing. Actually, last week's ruling had no impact. It had already been ruled awhile back that athletes could be tested - the Supreme Court just extended testing to the chess team and debate club last week. Phil -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender.
Re: TF Re: t-and-f: Baseball, track and drugs
It was suggested off-list that perhaps he finally got a pay-off. Nah Regards, Martin Jonas Mureika wrote: What ever happened to the supposed release of documents over the weekend, concerning the USATF cases? These were supposed to have been made public on Saturday, but I've heard nothing since. J.
t-and-f: George Orton
Here is a Died This Day bit that was in the Globe today that I found interesting for a couple of reasons. I'm sure GH will be able to add some other personal reminiscences! Regards, Martin George Orton, 1958 Athlete born Strathroy, Ont., Jan 10, 1873; won Canadian and American mile titles in 1892 and 1893; Canada did not send a team to the 1900 Paris Olympics, so he went with the U.S. squad; in the days before athletes competed for countries, he ran in the colours of the University of Pennsylvania; won gold medal in 2,500-metre steeplechase and silver in 400-metre hurdles.
Re: t-and-f: George Orton
Right on the colour of the medal, wrong on the citizenship. At least according to the following provided in response to the same posting to the Can list by Ian Reid. The paper has been duly notified. Regards, Martin http://www.athletics-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/stats_athletics/olympics/1900_m.htm Kurt Bray wrote: Canada did not send a team to the 1900 Paris Olympics, so he went with the U.S. squad; in the days before athletes competed for countries, he ran in the colours of the University of Pennsylvania; won gold medal in 2,500-metre steeplechase and silver in 400-metre hurdles. The lists I have showing him winning bronze in the 400m hurdles, not silver. Also, on the same lists his nationality is shown as USA. Did he hold dual citizenship, or was he somehow counted as an honorary American since he showed up with the US team? Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
t-and-f: The other Can National Championships
Details of the duel meet will be announced shortly. Regards, Martin Subject: TF The other National Championships Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:28:16 -0600 From: William F. Donahue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On a warm and windy night, 24 intrepid runners faced off at Rolly Mills Track in Edmonton for the 2002 Canadian National Beer-Miling Championships. Most notable, reigning World Beer-Miling Champion Scott Jensen was beaten not only by relative unknown Blaine Woodcock but also was unable to hold off the late charge of Solomon Ssenyenge, who outleaned Jensen at the line. Dazed and confused, Jensen immediately talked about hanging up his spikes and referee's jersey and joining the ranks of recreational beer-miling. Conditions: Clear, 24 C, 27% humidity, wind SE22 kmph, 101.0 kPa, 24 km visibiilty, nearly full moon. Results: 1 Blaine Woodcock AB 6:40 2. Solomon Ssenyenge AB 7:12.39 3. Scott Jensen AB 7:12.40 4 Eric Gilis 8:34.89 5 Dave Harder SK 8:34.91 6 Brian Torrence AB 9:05 7 Bill Donahue AB 9:09 8 Trevor O'Brian ONT 9:59 9 Jackie Pearce SK 10:16 (PL) 10 Lance White AB 11:03 11 Kyle Marcotte's chest AB 12:50 12 Jared Fletcher MB 13:20 13 Nathan Kendrick AB - Team Britney 13:23 (PL) 14 Shandra Doran AB 13:29 (volleyball player) 15 Ken Myers 14:03 16 Jackie Jones AB 14:29 (PL) 17 Steve MacIntyre SK / Kevin Olson AB 18:04.01 19 Dave Shanks AB 19:11 (PL) 20 Kyle Marcotte's ass 19:14 Jamie Epp SK - DNF Sean Maynton SK - DNF Sandy Bain - 17:26; DQed for pouring 1/4 beer over head Kara Bouma AB Robyn ... AB - 22:03; DQed for sharing beer
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
Is someone privy to his deals? Let's say he was paid the same as Kobe and Tiger then what say you? Some people seem to be strictly looking at the dollars. Take it off the table because we don't know. He thinks he has a good coach who won't screw it up like some people think is going to happen. He is going to get an education. Presumably he is getting paid a bunch of money. Lots of people have developed very well thank very much and have never even heard of your precious NCAA. This is not complicated. It's back to a coaching argument. Let's say he isn't as well off financially long-term, perhaps he should be given credit for looking at other things other than the dollars. Most of this list is American and you would still all be pledging allegiance to the queen if a few people didn't think outside of the box a couple of hundred years ago. Not to mention Neil Armstrong etc. etc. The comments Mike P has made are offensive to GMU. I have no idea if he has made the right move and it will be an impossible thing to evaluate down the road in any event. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not at all a proper comparison. Tiger and Webb. We are talking whole lot more dollars In a message dated 6/20/2002 8:36:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would anybody have said to Tiger Woods that he needed to stay at Stanford through a full four-year ride?
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
Because you were implying that GMU would not be able to do as good a job above the shoulders. Maybe that is true. Is there any empirical evidence in whatever field he was in at UM and whatever he is in at GMU? Somebody must have the answer to that question given how many conclusions are being drawn about his deal(s) from various and sundry armchairs. Martin D Mike Prizy wrote: Martin D. - Please explain to me (Mike P) how - in your opinion, and I presume not in any official capacity with GMU - was my comment offensive to GMU? My previous post: But, I believe Kobe played under 15 minutes per game his first year with the Lakers. We'll never know, but would he have been better prepared for the NBA if he had played two years of college like some other kid named Mike? Also, Tiger was one of the best in the world, and he and Kobe got multi million dollar contracts. Webb's best time ranked him as the 78th??? 1500m guy. He'll probably reach that sub-3:30 in the next few years. But why take the sink-or-swim approach when a university with a coach with proven credentials was willing to pay for his training and travel to competition, and also pick up the tab for his education? I think one more year of college running would have done wonders for his development - above as well as below his shoulders. Two years of college seemed to work well for Carl Lewis. Martin J. Dixon wrote: Is someone privy to his deals? Let's say he was paid the same as Kobe and Tiger then what say you? Some people seem to be strictly looking at the dollars. Take it off the table because we don't know. He thinks he has a good coach who won't screw it up like some people think is going to happen. He is going to get an education. Presumably he is getting paid a bunch of money. Lots of people have developed very well thank very much and have never even heard of your precious NCAA. This is not complicated. It's back to a coaching argument. Let's say he isn't as well off financially long-term, perhaps he should be given credit for looking at other things other than the dollars. Most of this list is American and you would still all be pledging allegiance to the queen if a few people didn't think outside of the box a couple of hundred years ago. Not to mention Neil Armstrong etc. etc. The comments Mike P has made are offensive to GMU. I have no idea if he has made the right move and it will be an impossible thing to evaluate down the road in any event. Regards, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not at all a proper comparison. Tiger and Webb. We are talking whole lot more dollars In a message dated 6/20/2002 8:36:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would anybody have said to Tiger Woods that he needed to stay at Stanford through a full four-year ride?
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
And the people talking about money are arguing against themselves in any event. Old story: Man to beautiful woman in bar: Will you sleep with me for a million dollars? Beautiful woman: Of course. Man: Will you sleep with me for a dollar? Beautiful woman: Of course not. What do you think I am-some kind of whore? Man: We've already established that. We're now just negotiating price. Those talking about money don't seem to have a problem with Ray's pimping, they are just questioning whether or not he has done a good enough job. malmo seems to think that if he is making enough to buy his Mom a 5 million dollar house then that is enough. I think we can safely say that is not the case. Shawn's cut-off seems to be 1,000,000. It's likely less than that. I'll concede it should be greater than 1.00. So the number that should make people happy is somewhere between 1 dollar and 1,000,000. What is that number and do we know for sure that he is not getting it? As far as John Sun's comments are concerned, since when can business people be counted on to pay what the appropriate market is? Do a search and include dot-com and bubble in your search parameters. Draw your own conclusions. We don't know what he is getting. We can't guess. It might be enough. Show me the money. Fred Finke wrote: Hi. Fred Finke Here. Actually I was not talking about money as everyone appears to be thinking. I was strictly referring to the fact that, although I would never recommend it to any HS athlete in any sport, we do not know the specifics of the entire move. Maybe, just maybe, he is doing what he and his parents think is best. Maybe he is really doing the best thing: Striking while the iron is hot. Suppose (and if Webb took anything less, I would be surprised and disappointed) he gets: a. -1 million dollar signing bonus (I would guess that is conservative (that's 50K a year for life invested)) b. -Guaranteed 4 year school scholarship of his choice (NO College guarantees that, and I would bet ANYTHING that was part of the deal) c. -Coaching that includes the guy that got him 3:53 (and you can be sure that he will have access to other coaches as necessary) d. -One of the best (if not THE best) manager in the game as his agent (that can use the leverage of his other athletes to get Webb into races). e. -The ability to pick and schedule ALL of his races (which I doubt would just include 1500/mile races) around the worlds schedule instead of just the collegiate schedule. f. -Be surrounded by the support group that has worked so far (His HS Coach, parents, girlfriend(?), etc) g. -Be in a training group of HIS choice. h. -Still race all the NCAA (XC, Indoors, Outdoors) races he wants (on his schedule, as an open athlete) except for the NCAA championships. (What meet would not want him in their race as a draw?) What could ANY college program do to top that set-up? And last but not least, I find it interesting (at least it appears to me) that the common perception is that the progression of coaching excellence is as follows:, club youth coaches, HS coaches, college coaches, elite coaches, each having better coaches than the one before it. I still remember Radzko (His HS coach, sp?) getting hammered during Webb's' junior year when he had Webb pass on a race or two (I think it was national scholastic) and then having Webb in some relays instead of open events (Penn relays?). As we all know, there are rotten apples at ALL levels and there is excellence at ALL levels. We may not want to sell Radzko short. In the final analysis, it comes down (IMHO) to what the athlete feels is best for his success and his future. Obviously, he would have gotten good coaching and racing experiences at Michigan, but who is to say that he did not get an even BETTER situation? Fred PS-On the other hand, how about the experts that were screaming Ritzenheim that was overraced in HS. Seems to me he is doing pretty well. (BTW, how many of you experts knew that Ritz negative split almost EVERY 2K lap of the 12K at the world XC Championships?) *** Fred Finke, LDR Men's Coach Selection Coordinator --- O Men's Team Leader, World Cross, Morocco, 1998 -- ^_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- \/\ Visit me at: www.Coachnet.net *** -Original Message- From: Mike Prizy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:51 AM To: Fred Finke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro But, I believe Kobe played under 15 minutes per game his first year with the Lakers. We'll never know, but would he have been better prepared for the NBA if he had played two years of college like some other kid named Mike? Also, Tiger was one of the best in the world, and he and Kobe got multi million dollar contracts.
