date:20150528

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 09:56 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
 What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
 other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning
 name tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.

 Where do you draw the limit?

Does that mean you agree there should be a limit, or would you allow
each and every of the several thousand languages on the planet to add
their name tag to the London node? How would disputes be handled?

 name:en is on thousands of nodes but in
 many of these places it is not an official or even a minority language
 but an extra language. 

Yes, I've thought about that; name:en is very useful for me but
ultimately, if the locals don't use it, then it isn't on the ground,
and then it shouldn't be in OSM really.

 Should languages with over 1 billion (native and
 non-native) speakers be allowed to put name:xx all over the world. 500m?
 10m? 10 thousand?

I don't think any size gives one the right to cultural imperialism; let
the locals decide what names *they* think they have and that's it.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Robert Banick

+1 to Dave. OSM is universal, full stop.

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Dave Corley davecor...@gmail.com wrote:

 I am honestly stunned this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

 In regards to



 On 05/28/2015 09:19 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
  other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning name
  tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.

 *Especially* if their reasoning was that this makes it nicer for them to
 run a tank through these places in their own-language war simulation
 with their buddies.


 On the first point, why not? There are maps of the world in English,
 French, German etc etc. I see no logical reason to object to certain
 languages being used in the name tag. That is the whole point of the
 flexibility of that tag. The scale of usage is null and void. Either its
 acceptable everywhere or its acceptable nowhere. Anything in between is
 entirely subjective and completely unfair.

 On the second point, since when do we care about the motivation about why
 certain data gets added. If someone wants to add 3d tagging to utilise in a
 3d map they are creating, do we nitpick about that? If Scout adds speed
 limits to make their app more effective, do we complain?

 Lastly, and I think this is important point. To quote the wiki header
 . the project that creates and distributes free geographic data for
 the world. Either this is a database of worldwide geodata or its not.
 There's no half-way in that statement. Either all cultures, languages,
 countries, people and the variety these elements bring in terms of tagging,
 is accepted on a universal basis or its not.

 If its not, then that's an entirely different conversation.

 Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 28 May 2015 at 11:09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 2015-05-28 11:41 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:

 But let's not get sidetracked, that's a different discussion from the
 Wikidata question. I just hope that Wikidata doesn't list New Brige as
 the English name of Pont Neuf or else they have a problem ;)

 actually they do for Spanish and Catalan: www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q335277
 I guess they do have a problem now?

Or perhaps that's what people speaking those languages actually call the bridge?

 Another issue that can be seen here: nobody will want this Puente Nuevo
 (París) as a label for a bridge on a map (París)

Seen where?

 Every single entity in wikidata I have looked at had some issues
 in one or the other way,

Either your sampling is flawed or you're exaggerating.

 if you open up this can of worms for names, there will soon be the desire to
 extend the concept

This is not a can of worms; but Wikidata does offer far more than names.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread moltonel 3x Combo

On 28/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84

 You can see its names in various languages by clicking the Labels
 list tab (then note slidebar)

 Call me stupid, but I don't see any clickable label list tab ?

 Sorry; you won't see it if you're not logged in.

Ah, I thought for a moment that I'd need to create an account and log
in, but then I saw that anonymous edits were accepted, so I assumed
that I could see everything that was to be seen. Then I saw the
translations in the json output that somebody linked, and wondered
again if I was blind when reading the renderd html.

 You'd need to log in and enable this gadget:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Tools/Gadgets#LabelLister

 I'll ask if there's a method for non-logged-in users to see them.

Please do.

I'm really surprised that translations aren't visible like every other
properties. Is there a technical or editorial reason ?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?





 Am 28.05.2015 um 22:20 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 
 Yes, I've thought about that; name:en is very useful for me but
 ultimately, if the locals don't use it, then it isn't on the ground,
 and then it shouldn't be in OSM really.


are we really insisting in locals, or can a traveller be on the ground as 
well? This traveller could communicate with other travelers...

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread moltonel 3x Combo

On 28/05/2015, Andrew Guertin andrew.guer...@uvm.edu wrote:
 Considering the existence of the former Soviet Union, and especially
 that there are areas of Ukraine where both Russian and Ukrainian are
 spoken and most roads, places, etc have names (and thus tags) in both
 languages, this number of 582,653 name:ru tags is hard to interpret.


 My skill with overpass-turbo isn't the best, but I was able to
 relatively easily limit a search to a bounding box around North and
 South America. Within that box, a search returned 2648 nodes and 909
 ways with name:ru (relations timed out).

Taginfo offers a quick way to view this:
http://taginfo.osm.org/search?q=name
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Aen#map
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Aru#map
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/int_name#map
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Aja#map
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Ade#map
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Afr#map
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/name%3Aar#map

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] SeFaireConnaitre :(

2015-05-28 Thread Pierre-Yves Berrard

Bien vu pour le recalage, la position est assez bonne du coup. Mais c'est
en fait un doublon puisque le POI était déjà présent dans osm. Je vais
fusionner pour conserver toutes les infos.

Le 28 mai 2015 21:06, Stéphane Péneau stephane.pen...@wanadoo.fr a écrit :

  J'en ai vu aussi, mais il y a du mieux.
 Leur procédure reste bizarre :
 Un point à un mauvais emplacement est créé (milieu de la route)
 Puis, dans un autre changeset, il est recalé.
 C'est le cas de ton exemple, reste à voir si sa position actuelle est la
 bonne.

 Stf

 Le 28/05/2015 19:25, Pierre-Yves Berrard a écrit :

  Recrudescence de création de points mal placés de manière automatique
 par l'utilisateur SeFaireConnaitre.
 Un exemple (parmi beaucoup) :
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31523303

  Ce contributeur (une agence de com) semble ignorer les remarques qu'on
 lui a fait à ce sujet...
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-fr/2014-November/073250.html


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Jóhannes Birgir Jensson


Þann 28.5.2015 19:43, skrifaði Frederik Ramm:

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 09:19 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning name
tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.

*Especially* if their reasoning was that this makes it nicer for them to
run a tank through these places in their own-language war simulation
with their buddies.
Disclaimer, I own some of the tanks that might run through some of the 
places. As any consumer I've been critical of their work and loved and 
hated it with equal passion, depending on what they did in the last 
patch release.


Having said that the one nice thing about open projects is the added 
value people put into them and get out of them for a myriad of reasons. 
A gaming company adding information (yes it is information) to the map 
can be beneficial to another consumer, for example a Russian style 
TripAdvisor or something completely different.


Is a gaming company not worthy of adding information? Again a matter of 
where do you draw the line. They are not inventing new towns or places, 
they are not creating battlefields. Do we now require each contributor 
to disclose the reason for why they are adding information to the map?


This revert and discussions about it should not become too specific to 
the contributor whose work was reverted. These edits and reverts point 
at a vital issue as we try to grow the map in areas where hundreds of 
languages suddenly eye the ability to get maps in their own languages 
using the OSM data and tools that exist for it. I propose the OSMF 
tackle these two questions, who should be able to add information to the 
map and what do we do about languages and where are the limits.


--Jói / Stalfur

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Re: [OSM-talk] Neat use of OpenStreetMap

2015-05-28 Thread Michał Brzozowski

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at wrote:

 Also, I really, really hope my access point will not get into any really
 open-to-everyone database because I don't want people to follow me around by
 database request when I'm moving somewhere and don't want to be easily
 found.

So, there's industry standard way to do this, add _nomap to your SSID.
Or just don't broadcast SSID whatsoever.
And BTW, you can possibly be already listed on WiGLE :-P

As the saying goes, wadriving is not a crime. If you transmit
anything into the public air, and people receive that just as intended
(that is no packet sniffing). you can't legally do anything about it.
_nomap is provided out of courtesy.

Michał

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Philip Barnes

On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 22:20 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 Yes, I've thought about that; name:en is very useful for me but
 ultimately, if the locals don't use it, then it isn't on the ground,
 and then it shouldn't be in OSM really.
 
Absolutely agree, there is a tendency to have name for places that
really don't need it. As a traveller I would far rather maps show what I
am going to see on the ground, or a roadsign than some made up name.

A German city, I think it was Würzburg, was in the news last year. It is
a name I am familiar with, however the BBC news report had dug up an
English spelling I was totally unaware existed. 

Many are just plain silly, why does English put an 's' on the end of
Lyon and Marseille. 

Berlin does not need a name;en tag.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Snowdonia National Park Boundary

2015-05-28 Thread Dave F.


You're correct, it is a bit screwed up

http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeMap?relationId=287245

http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeRelation?relationId=287245_noCache=on

History should be listed here:
http://osm.virtuelle-loipe.de/history/

Dave F.

On 28/05/2015 20:12, Colin Smale wrote:


Hi everyone,

The boundary relation for Snowdonia National Park is severely messed 
up at the moment.


Is there anyone who can sort this out? I don't mind doing the editing 
but I kind of resent fixing somebody else's damage and I haven't got a 
source for the boundary vectors.


The latest editor of the relation is SK53 but he is a respected, 
experienced mapper and I don't believe he would do this. Querying the 
history on the website just times out so I can't easily see when it 
went pear-shaped and how it used to be


http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245

Cheers,

Colin



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Re: [OSM-talk] Reporting routing problems

2015-05-28 Thread Paul Norman


On 5/28/2015 11:25 AM, Daniel Koć wrote:


With MapQuest it was much harder to find how can I report another bug. 
Finally I have found Residential Map or Route Errors link on Support 
page ( https://support.mapquest.com/hc/en-us - looks like the link 
itself is dynamic, because it has issue number included). Help service 
was as quick as in OSRM, but they said MapQuest currently support is 
only active for USA and Canada and while they hope international 
routing will be also supported, they can only recommend me Open 
MapQuest with OSM data. =} After I said that I originally came from 
OSM itself, the help line operator said that he will share this with 
our routing team but please note that we are not actively supporting 
international routing right now so I unfortunately can't make any 
promises as to when we might get to this. Maybe our technical team 
should talk with theirs to make better feedback channel available?


I would suggest reproducing the issue on open.mapquest.com and providing 
a link to that route when reporting.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 28 May 2015 at 10:59, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote:

There might be a case for adding pronunciations (of 'difficult' names at
 least) to the OSM database. Someone must have proposed a tagging scheme for
 this, surely?


Yes; wikidata=

Wikidata will have both IPA [1] phonetic guides to pronunciation, and in
some cases links to audio files.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English - as used in
Wikipedias.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?


On 28/05/2015 22:27, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:

You can argue against machine-made non-reviewed translitterations,
because they don't add anything that a data consumer couldn't and
because they likely contain mistakes. But that's apparenlty not the
case of the name:ru changeset that got reverted.


The source of the names in the reverted changeset is described in the 
changeset discussion http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30451655 :


to find russian names for places, I googled for English place names 
plus достопримечательности, погода or some other russian word.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Andrew Guertin


On 05/28/2015 03:43 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

*Especially* if their reasoning was that this makes it nicer for them to
run a tank through these places in their own-language war simulation
with their buddies.


If the data is valid, it doesn't matter what the use case is. I'm HAPPY 
knowing that people are using the data I contribute in all sorts of ways 
and contributing back so I can use theirs.


--Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Jóhannes Birgir Jensson


Þann 28.5.2015 19:19, skrifaði Frederik Ramm:
What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or 
other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning 
name tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK. 
Bye Frederik 


Where do you draw the limit? name:en is on thousands of nodes but in 
many of these places it is not an official or even a minority language 
but an extra language. Should languages with over 1 billion (native and 
non-native) speakers be allowed to put name:xx all over the world. 500m? 
10m? 10 thousand?


--Jói / Stalfur

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Dave Corley

I am honestly stunned this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

In regards to



 On 05/28/2015 09:19 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
  other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning name
  tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.

 *Especially* if their reasoning was that this makes it nicer for them to
 run a tank through these places in their own-language war simulation
 with their buddies.


On the first point, why not? There are maps of the world in English,
French, German etc etc. I see no logical reason to object to certain
languages being used in the name tag. That is the whole point of the
flexibility of that tag. The scale of usage is null and void. Either its
acceptable everywhere or its acceptable nowhere. Anything in between is
entirely subjective and completely unfair.

On the second point, since when do we care about the motivation about why
certain data gets added. If someone wants to add 3d tagging to utilise in a
3d map they are creating, do we nitpick about that? If Scout adds speed
limits to make their app more effective, do we complain?

Lastly, and I think this is important point. To quote the wiki header
. the project that creates and distributes free geographic data for
the world. Either this is a database of worldwide geodata or its not.
There's no half-way in that statement. Either all cultures, languages,
countries, people and the variety these elements bring in terms of tagging,
is accepted on a universal basis or its not.

If its not, then that's an entirely different conversation.

Dave
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Autocariste, dépôt de bus, de train

2015-05-28 Thread Éric Gillet

Le 28 mai 2015 11:49, Romain MEHUT romain.me...@gmail.com a écrit :

 A mon sens il parlait des noms donnés pour décrire quelque chose sans
 rapport avec un quelconque nom identifiable sur le terrain. Si cimetière
 municipal est bien le nom inscrit, alors oui il a tout à fait sa place
 pour le tag name.


S'il y a marqué Poubelle sur une poubelle il faut lui donner un nom sur
OSM ?
Pour l'exemple du cimetière, le nom est en effet probablement affiché,
surement dû au fait qu'il est difficile de déterminer ce qui est à
l'intérieur des murs les entourant en général (en tout cas sans connaître
le lieu au préalable).

Si le nom permet de distinguer ce cimetière par rapport aux autres
cimetières, alors oui il est intéressant de le mentionner. Cimetière
municipal ne semble pas du tout être unique, et ajouter le nom de la ville
également puisque sa position géographique à l'intérieur d'une limite
administrative permet de l'obtenir.
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Intégration des données de PSS dans OSM

2015-05-28 Thread Vincent Frison

Le 1 mai 2015 21:14, Vincent Frison vincent.fri...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Merci pour vos réponses, notamment Philippe pour ton mail très instructif.

 Et donc s'il faut résumer cette licence BY-NC-ND empêche toute extraction
de donnée vers OSM, c'est vraiment dommage.

 Je vais quand même essayer de leur demander si une autorisation spéciale
pour OSM serait envisageable, sait on jamais...

Bon à priori ça devrait pouvoir se faire, ils m'ont même donné un export de
leur base en XML ! :)

L'export contient :
- la hauteur de l'immeuble
- l'URL vers la fiche de l'immeuble sur leur site
- et évidemment les coordonnées

Le fichier contient 43 188 bâtiments et non pas 47 636 comme indiqué sur
leur site car ils ont déjà filtré les bâtiments qui sont en projet ou
détruit (ça tombe bien car ils ne nous intéressent pas).

Maintenant il faudrait que je leur fournisse un document autorisant
explicitement l'import de ces données dans OSM puis qu'ils le signent. Si
quelqu'un a un modèle je suis preneur...

J'ai fait tourner mon programme sur cet export et voici quelques
statistiques :
Total of loaded imports: 43188
Total of matched imports: 33059
Number of matched elements: 31789
Number of updatable elements: 31756
Number of updated elements: 0
Repartition by matching scores:
- score between 0% and 10% : 972 (3%) elements = 0 updated (970 were
updatable)
- score between 10% and 20% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 20% and 30% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 30% and 40% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 40% and 50% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 50% and 60% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 60% and 70% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 70% and 80% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 80% and 90% : 0 (0%) elements = 0 updated (0 were
updatable)
- score between 90% and 100% : 30817 (96%) elements = 0 updated (30786
were updatable)

Quelques remarques :
- sur les 43 188 buildings PSS seulement 33059 correspondent à au moins un
bâtiment OSM = environ 1 buildings PSS sont écartés (soit parce qu'ils
ont des coordonnées placées légèrement à côté du bâtiment soit parce que le
bâtiment n'existe tout simplement pas dans OSM)
- cela fait que 31789 buildings OSM correspondent avec au moins un building
PSS :
  * 972 correspondent à plus d'un seul building PSS et dans ce cas là je
préfère mettre un score global à 0% (et donc ne rien faire) car ça veut
dire que le découpage de ces bâtiments OSM n'est pas assez précis.
  * 30817 correspondent qu'à un seul building PSS et parmi ceux ci 30786
sont updatables, les autres ne le sont pas car ils avaient déjà un tag
height.

Il faut bien comprendre que le souci comparé à mon import des bâtiments
parisiens c'est qu'ici on a pas la surface des buildings, or je me basais
justement sur celle ci pour calculer les scores de correspondance. Du coup
un building PSS dont ses coordonnées sont à l'intérieur d'un building OSM a
forcément un score de correspondance à 1.0 (ie. le score max). Par contre
s'il y en a plus qu'un seul building PSS qui matche un building OSM
(environ 3% des cas) alors je met le score global du building OSM à 0%
afin de ne rien faire. Cela évitera pas mal de situations problématiques
mais pas le cas où un building OSM correspond dans la réalité à plusieurs
buildings de hauteur différente. C'est surtout vrai pour Paris mais ça peut
aussi arriver hors de Paris même si c'est de manière beaucoup plus
marginale de ce que j'ai vu. Mais ce que je pourrais éventuellement faire
c'est avoir une bounding box d'exclusion afin de ne pas toucher à Paris et
sa petite couronne. Ou sinon j'ai vu sur leur site que certains buildings
avaient une surface de terrain. S'ils pouvaient la rajouter export je
pourrais calculer des scores comme je le faisais pour l'import sur Paris.
Sauf que cette notion de surface de terrain ne correspond pas forcément à
l'empreinte du bâtiment (par ex. pour les résidences avec plusieurs
immeubles ça peut être la surface totale de la résidence) et en plus cette
info n'est pas présente à chaque fois. Au final il y aurait donc beaucoup
moins que 30k buildings updatables mais au moins ça serait plus sûr, bref
c'est à creuser...

Sinon ça serait bien chouette s'ils pouvaient également nous rajouter dans
leur export un ou deux champs supplémentaires, comme par exemple le nom ou
l'année de construction mais bon c'est déjà assez classe qu'ils nous
autorisent déjà utiliser la hauteur malgré leur vilaine licence BY-NC-ND.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread moltonel 3x Combo

I agree with Dave here, but add some general remarks :

Please handle the questions of should FOO-language name of an object
be allowed in the database ? and should that databse be OSM or
Wikidata ? separately. The decision of whether Абергавенни should
be recorded as the Russian name for Abergavenny should be the same
for Wikidata and OSM.

I disagree with the idea that only local languages are acceptable,
firstly because you don't know that there isn't a local speaking that
language natively, and secondly because people have given names to
foreign places before even the first maps were drawn. A name doesn't
have to go through a vetting process to become a name. It becomes one
as soon as it is used and recognised by more than one person.

There's no point in complaining about name:ru (580k) when name:en is
at 1320k, name:ja 320k, name:de 280k, name:fr 270k, and the taginfo
map for all of those shows a worldwide distribution roughly matching
the worldwide OSM data density.

You can argue against machine-made non-reviewed translitterations,
because they don't add anything that a data consumer couldn't and
because they likely contain mistakes. But that's apparenlty not the
case of the name:ru changeset that got reverted.

I'm not worried about all named osm objects someday getting thousands
of name:CC tags because realistically that's not going to happen.
London still has a measly 154. Europe 46. Worldwide interest will
decide how far a given name goes, but I'd be surprised (and pleased)
if one place ever goes above 500.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Neat use of OpenStreetMap

2015-05-28 Thread Robert Kaiser


Michał Brzozowski schrieb:

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at wrote:


Also, I really, really hope my access point will not get into any really
open-to-everyone database because I don't want people to follow me around by
database request when I'm moving somewhere and don't want to be easily
found.


So, there's industry standard way to do this, add _nomap to your SSID.
Or just don't broadcast SSID whatsoever.


But I'm fine with those recording it that do not make it available for 
download by everyone.



As the saying goes, wadriving is not a crime. If you transmit
anything into the public air, and people receive that just as intended
(that is no packet sniffing). you can't legally do anything about it.


Making your movements available publicly is a privacy invasion, no 
matter if it's legal or not. A lot of privacy invasions are legal (like 
the NSA recording all European Internet traffic when it enters the USA), 
but that doesn't make them good or right.


KaiRo




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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] modification page Wiki

Déjà la largeur forcée de la table (600 pixels) n'est pas nécessaire du
tout, tout va bien quand on l'enlève. Ensuite si l'écran n'est pas assez
large, les colonnes se reserrerront toutes seules.

Le 28 mai 2015 20:31, Francescu GAROBY windu...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Bonsoir,
 La colonne Description est en fait basée sur un template :
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:ValueDescription
 Il te faut donc jouer avec les possibilités offertes par ce template, pour
 faire ce que tu souhaites. Peut-être en renseignant le style ?

 Francescu

 Le 28 mai 2015 20:27, bernard bernard.a...@laposte.net a écrit :

 Bonjour,
 J'essaie de modifier la page wiki Boulangerie


 1- je voudrai élargir une colonne ; ici la colonne Description (pour
 faciliter la lecture)


 Un rapide aperçu sur le wiki ne laisse à penser que ce n'est pas possible.
 Peut-on élargir artificiellement la colonne ..
 Description... ?
 ou y at'il une méthode mieux adaptée ?
 Merci de vos réponses

 Cordialement
 bernard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Christoph Hormann

On Thursday 28 May 2015, Andrew Guertin wrote:
  There is a fundamental difference between an actual name for a
  place and a translation of one of those names

 I DO agree with this statement[1].

 However, I think that the point at which a word stops being a
 transliteration and starts being a native word is much sooner than
 you seem to. I'm not a linguist, but if I had to pin down when I
 think a word becomes part of a language, I'd say whenever the person
 using it doesn't think they're code-switching.[2]

 It's clear that in many cases, the people writing Абергавенни don't
 consider themselves to ever be switching out of Russian. To me, that
 makes Абергавенни an actual name for the place.

That might be the case but for OSM what matters should be if the use of 
this reference is sufficiently widespread, specific and prominent to be 
verifiable for mappers.

If i use a certain 'name' to refer to a certain geographic feature this 
is not yet a name of that feature in any wider sense no matter how i 
generated this name.  When i start communicating that name by refering 
to this feature with that name to others and others pick up the name 
and use it themselves this changes.  When this use of the name i chose 
gets widespread - both in absolute numbers, i.e. people actually using 
it frequently and in relative numbers, i.e. this name becomes the 
dominating name to refer to that feature within a certain context, like 
in a certain language, it will be sufficiently established to be tagged 
in OSM (in my opinion - others might see this differently).

Note the key part here is the conscious and specific use of the name for 
the feature in question.  Automatically generated lists and databases 
do not count.  These might influence peoples' use of names but do not 
establish a name on their own.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 28 May 2015 at 09:50, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 e.g. the en:Spanish Steps / de:Spanische Treppe are
 called Scalinata di Trinità dei Monti in the local language (it is located
 at piazza di Spagna, that's where the foreign name comes from, while in
 Italian it is called after to church it leads to). Naturally, OSM has the
 original name of this world famous monument, but Wikidata hasn't.

It does now.

 Wait, it
 hasn't the original name of this three-star-tourist-attraction, how's
 that? Have a look here: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q848072 the reason is
 that the Italian wikipedia hasn't got an article about the steps

No, that so not the reason, The reason was simply that no one had got
around to adding it. Rather like OSM not being complete, yet.

 If we were to massively use wikidata _instead of duplicating some details
 from there also in our db_ we would have to improve wikidata as well,

You'd be welcome to do so.  Just as Wikipedia editors who want better
maps for Wikipedia will improve OSM.

 and impose our entity structure on them,

Really? Good luck with that.

But why do you think you would need to?

 or it won't work in some cases (and if it doesn't work in some case, it 
 doesn't work at all).

That is, of course, nonsense.

 Another issue I see with wikidata is that it contains information and
 details about spatial objects, but it doesn't contain the geometry it refers
 to.

The geometry is in OSM, is it not? Why would Wikidata want to replicate that?

 Have a look at the Berlin object: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q64
 This covers both, an administrative entity and a geographic place in one
 object (no problem here, but can be a problem elsewhere).

Eventually, these will be split.

 This object has a property instance of metropolis
 http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q200250

 I don't want to discuss whether Berlin is a metropolis or not, what I want
 to point out is that there seem to be different criteria defined for
 different languages:

These descriptions aid users; they are not proscriptive. There are
also local and cultural variations. Just like city in OSM.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 28 May 2015 at 10:41, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 I just hope that Wikidata doesn't list New Brige as
 the English name of Pont Neuf or else they have a problem ;)

It alls it Pont neuf:

   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q335277

and has a property that tells you that that is its official name,
which is in the French language.

At some point, it will have a property that tells you that the name
/means/ New Bridge.

 It is my impression that a large proportion of name:xx tags in OSM are
 added by naming specialists who do little else than large scale name
 additions; it would probably not be too much to ask for them to indulge
 Wikidata instead of OSM.

Please do!

 if a mapper is of the
 opinion that no matching Wikidata object exists for an OSM feature, then
 they shouldn't use a wikidata tag, that much is clear!

Or they could, if suitable, crate a WIkidata item...

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Reporting routing problems


W dniu 28.05.2015 23:11, Paul Norman napisał(a):

On 5/28/2015 11:25 AM, Daniel Koć wrote:


promises as to when we might get to this. Maybe our technical team 
should talk with theirs to make better feedback channel available?



I would suggest reproducing the issue on open.mapquest.com and
providing a link to that route when reporting.


Yes, I did it. But it means it's another complexity to consider when 
reporting problems with their engine.


I don't know how open.mapquest.org routing service is different (in 
terms of routing code) from what we have on OSM website, but that should 
be done automatically if they're not the same. Anyway, that's really 
tech2tech kind of problem.


--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] modification page Wiki

Tu as mal lu, il ne parle pas je pense de l'infobox à droite mais du
tableau dans la page, où je viens de régler le problème en ôtant la largeur
du tableau forcée inutilement (et nuisiblement).

Le 28 mai 2015 20:31, Francescu GAROBY windu...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Bonsoir,
 La colonne Description est en fait basée sur un template :
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:ValueDescription
 Il te faut donc jouer avec les possibilités offertes par ce template, pour
 faire ce que tu souhaites. Peut-être en renseignant le style ?

 Francescu

 Le 28 mai 2015 20:27, bernard bernard.a...@laposte.net a écrit :

 Bonjour,
 J'essaie de modifier la page wiki Boulangerie


 1- je voudrai élargir une colonne ; ici la colonne Description (pour
 faciliter la lecture)


 Un rapide aperçu sur le wiki ne laisse à penser que ce n'est pas possible.
 Peut-on élargir artificiellement la colonne ..
 Description... ?
 ou y at'il une méthode mieux adaptée ?
 Merci de vos réponses

 Cordialement
 bernard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Lester Caine

On 27/05/15 22:13, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used
 name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were
 actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want
 (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of
 English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a
 place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for
 OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata.
 
 Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of
 us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable?

I've followed the to and fro on this and most things make sense. I would
not be happy with a third party providing a 'service' that is currently
handled via Nominatim and Geonames but this comes back to a proposal I
put forward some ten years ago. At the end of the day, a 'translation'
of everything contained in database is needed once one switches to a
different native language. English has been adopted as the base language
for the tagging, and currently it is expected that each tool creates
it's own translations of that for 'local' use, when a central dictionary
makes a LOT more sense. Adding 8 million locations each with it's own
set of 'translations' dovetails in with that, and tools can then simply
return a single language version of the data rather than having to
manage hundreds of different versions of each name. If a translation
exists in the dictionary, that is used, otherwise a fall back to a
secondary language can be used eventually falling back to an English
identifier.

For other users of the material, they could substitute their own
dictionary in place of the 'official' one, so we can have Klingon or
Jedi for those using the maps for gaming purposes. But I don't think we
can rely on a third party like Wikidata to provide this dictionary ...
they may however parallel it's operation?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Neat use of OpenStreetMap

2015-05-28 Thread Simon Poole


It is not clear to me what isn't free about MLS, but in any case
openbmap has been around for quite a while.

The main issue with -all- of these alternative location services is that
they currently can't be seamlessly be integrated in to mobile OSs
without the cooperation of the manufacturers which kinds of makes them
redundant.

Simon

Am 28.05.2015 um 11:21 schrieb Paul Johnson:
 OpenBMap http://radiocells.org/
 
 It's similar to Google's location services or Mozilla's location
 service, but free.  You can make use of it as a location provider in
 Android using the OpenBMap plugin
 https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdfilter=unifiednlpfdid=org.openbmap.unifiedNlp
 for microG unified NLP.  And you can contribute data as well using the
 Radiobeacon app
 https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=org.openbmap.  Seems to be
 in it's very early stages right now, but could be a real powerhouse with
 a little extra effort.
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] OSM Boundaries réduit la France

On tombe régulièrement sur ce conflit de frontières au Mont Blanc
(visiblement les Italiens ne sont pas d'accord alors qu'officiellement cet
accord frontalier existe avec une tolérance sur le sommet, mais on admet la
frontière comme passant par les sommets des deux dômes sans les contourner
d'un côte ou de l'autre).

Certains contributeurs font trop de zèle sur les anciennes revendications
politiques qui n'ont plus lieu d'être (les deux pays de toute façon
assurant conjointement la sécurité dans la zone, selon les conditions météo
pour les hélicos, l'état de la neige et les voies d'accès praticables ou
non). On est avant tout dans un espace naturel protégé (et risqué) où la
question de fierté politique nationale n'a pas sa place.

Le 27 mai 2015 15:24, didier2020 didier2...@free.fr a écrit :

 la relation est ouverte au niveau du mont blanc
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.83243/6.86439

 il y a 5 nodes au meme endroit ...

 je ne sais pas corriger car le cadastre ne correspond pas du tout au
 tracé de frontiere.


 Le mercredi 27 mai 2015 à 14:59 +0200, Antoine Riche a écrit :
  Bonjour,
 
  Est-ce quelqu'un sait qui maintient le service OSM Boundaries :
  https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/  ?  C'est un outil plutôt
  bien fait pour récupérer les limites administratives, mais aujourd'hui
  la France a perdu sa partie métropolitaine, ne reste que la France
  d'outre-mer.
 
  Cela semble dû à l'absence de la relation de niveau 3, du coup on ne
  peut pas accéder à celles de niveaux supérieurs. Pourtant celle-ci a
  l'air en bon état et n'a pas été modifiée récemment :
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1403916
 
  Antoine.
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 28 May 2015 at 13:33, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 28/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 Another issue that can be seen here: nobody will want this Puente Nuevo
 (París) as a label for a bridge on a map (París)
 Funny ah? Every single entity in wikidata I have looked at had some issues
 in one or the other way, I believe we would get more problems than we would
 solve.

 The issue here is that these strings are the name of the wikipedia
 article in various language, which is *not* the same as the name of
 the location in various languages. Wikipedia likes to add some
 disambiguation text, which we do not want in OSM.

Wikidata labels do not include that disambiguation (some exceptions
may be found, but they are user errors,and are being weeded out).

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84

 You can see its names in various languages by clicking the Labels
 list tab (then note slidebar)

 Call me stupid, but I don't see any clickable label list tab ?

Sorry; you won't see it if you're not logged in. You'd need to log in
and enable this gadget:

   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Tools/Gadgets#LabelLister

I'll ask if there's a method for non-logged-in users to see them.

  The
 closest thing I see is the list of wikipedia articles, which has the
 problem mentioned above.

Those are not the labels

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

[Resending, to this list]


On 27 May 2015 at 23:03, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote:

 OpenStreetMap is the spatial representation of the world - wouldn't it make
 sense then to also store the translations for locations in OpenStreetMap?

No. Wikidata exists because the Wikipedia community realised that it
is folly to store and maintain duplicate copies of the same data in
more than one location (in this case, Wikipedias in different
languages).

Not only is that wasteful - especially in terms of volunteer effort -
but it also results in de-synchronisation.

Instead, Wikidata was created to hold data which would then be used by
multiple Wikipedias (and sister Wikimedia projects), and made
available to third parties, of which OSM is one.

We simply don't have the spare volunteer capacity to needlessly
dupliate all that effort; even if it were the sensible thing to do,
which it is not.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[OSM-talk-fr] Cépages ?

2015-05-28 Thread Laurent Chiche

Bonjour,

Quelqu'un sait-il s'il est possible d'indiquer les cépages des vignes et
quels attributs utiliser ? J'ai cherché, mais rien trouvé à ce sujet dans
le wiki.

Merci
Laurent
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 10:27 PM, Dave Corley wrote:
 Either this is a database of worldwide geodata or its not.
 There's no half-way in that statement. Either all cultures, languages,
 countries, people and the variety these elements bring in terms of
 tagging, is accepted on a universal basis or its not. 

It is not. Your either-or is far too simplistic even for today's
OpenStreetMap, and sadly doesn't help this discussion at all.

There's quite a couple of cultures/world views that we are already
rejecting today, for example nationalist world views that would apply
certain name tags to objects clearly outside their jurisdiction and
against the expressed wish of the local population.

Decisions have to be made, especially were one person's freedom starts
to impact another person's freedom; it never was free-for-all.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] modification page Wiki

En fait pour les boulangeries, de plus en plus il y a aussi de
l'alimentation rapide à emporter (très couramment les sandwiches, pizzas,
parfois aussi des salades...) sans compter aussi les boissons (non
alcoolisées ou alors juste de la bière en canette, vendue uniquement avec
un produit alimentaire), glaces, yaourts à boire...

Je ne connais plus une seule boulangerie (même et surtout les plus petites)
qui ne fasse pas au moins des sandwiches à emporter (s'il n'y en a pas, en
vitrine, on peut demander ce sera fait avec le pain des fournées en vente)
et n'a pas un frigo avec des boissons à emporter (eau, colas et sodas, jus
de fruits). à l'occasion ceux qui déjeunent comme ça prendront aussi leur
dessert dans la patisserie ou viennoiserie proposée.

Parfois on a aussi une ou deux tables pour consommer sur place, et on vous
sert aussi le café (le matin on peut y prendre un petit déjeuner). Les
boulangeries dans les zones commerciales et industrielles ont même parfois
une terrasse ou une vraie complète de restauration (consommation sur
plateau). Mais là encore aucun tag mentionné pour indiquer la restauration
sur place.

Ces commerces traditionnels se diversifient en multi-service (et imitent ce
que font depuis longtemps des chaines comme La Brioche Dorée dans les
centres commerciaux et centres-villes ou stations d'autoroutes), même si la
boulangerie reste leur activité principale.

En revanche les tags pour les chocolats ou la confiserie, le sans-gluten,
le sans-lactose, c'est en peu plus folklo (et pourquoi pas non plus le
sans-sel ? ça fait hurler les boulangers, mais il y a un besoin, on
compense le manque de gout par des farines plus goûteuses comme la farine
de châtaigne ou d'autres céréales comme le sésame).

D'ailleurs souvent ce n'est que de la revente de chocolats et confiseries
industrielles, les même qu'en supermarché (un boulanger ne s'invente pas
chocolatier ou confiseur sans matériel spécifique, et sans volume de vente
conséquent, mais des boulangers peuvent se regrouper pour avoir un même
fabricant et ils le font maintenant aussi pour la pâtisserie, certains
aussi pour les salades à emporter, comme ils s'allient avec d'autres
commerces comme les café-bars-tabacs, pour former des dépôts de pains,
ouverts les jours où ils sont fermés).

Le 28 mai 2015 22:29, Philippe Verdy verd...@wanadoo.fr a écrit :

 Tu as mal lu, il ne parle pas je pense de l'infobox à droite mais du
 tableau dans la page, où je viens de régler le problème en ôtant la largeur
 du tableau forcée inutilement (et nuisiblement).

 Le 28 mai 2015 20:31, Francescu GAROBY windu...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Bonsoir,
 La colonne Description est en fait basée sur un template :
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:ValueDescription
 Il te faut donc jouer avec les possibilités offertes par ce template,
 pour faire ce que tu souhaites. Peut-être en renseignant le style ?

 Francescu

 Le 28 mai 2015 20:27, bernard bernard.a...@laposte.net a écrit :

 Bonjour,
 J'essaie de modifier la page wiki Boulangerie


 1- je voudrai élargir une colonne ; ici la colonne Description (pour
 faciliter la lecture)


 Un rapide aperçu sur le wiki ne laisse à penser que ce n'est pas
 possible.
 Peut-on élargir artificiellement la colonne ..
 Description... ?
 ou y at'il une méthode mieux adaptée ?
 Merci de vos réponses

 Cordialement
 bernard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 28 May 2015 at 09:50, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote:
 On 27/05/2015 22:56, Andy Mabbett wrote:

 A demonstrator, using Wikidata labels, is:
 http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/demo/map/ (choose select
 language). Coders might enjoy viewing the source code.

 That's interesting, but seems just to do multiple http transactions to get
 the names it needs (something that's not really scalable).

As I said, it's a *demonstrator*. It's not meant to scale.

 What I'd
 typically want to do with wikidata would be something like:

 1) define a series of properties that I'm interested in.

 Unfortunately I don't
 see this in any sort of sensible format - I just see a bunch of web pages
 like http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:List_of_properties which isn't
 really helpful.

I'm not sure what you're looking for.


 I suspect that these are problems that someone, somewhere has already
 solved

Indeed.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Andrew Guertin


On 05/27/2015 05:13 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated
language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added,
for example, name:ru tags even to small villages:

  http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map

(This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group
and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.)


Considering the existence of the former Soviet Union, and especially 
that there are areas of Ukraine where both Russian and Ukrainian are 
spoken and most roads, places, etc have names (and thus tags) in both 
languages, this number of 582,653 name:ru tags is hard to interpret.



My skill with overpass-turbo isn't the best, but I was able to 
relatively easily limit a search to a bounding box around North and 
South America. Within that box, a search returned 2648 nodes and 909 
ways with name:ru (relations timed out).


Considering in 2007 Russian was the primary language spoken in the 
homes of over 850,000 individuals living in the United States[1], 3500 
features with Russian names across all of North and South America seems 
very low, and there's lots of opportunity for more data to be added.


--Andrew

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language#Geographic_distribution

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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

2015-05-28 Thread Peter Barth

Hi,

ist jetzt zwar ziemlich OT, ich antworte jetzt aber trotzdem hier,
vielleicht interessierts ja noch jemanden ;)

Johannes Kröger schrieb:
 PS: Keine Ahnung, wie ich tief im Thread antworten kann mit Claws-Mail
 und Digests, sorry.

ich hab zwar keinen Digest, aber soweit ich weiß steht auch im Digest
die Message-ID. Die nimmst du und schreibst sie hinter In-Reply-To:.
Bei deiner Mail war das
  Message-ID: 20150528184316.7edcd...@helios.fritz.box
und das pack ich (bzw bei mir ohne Digest natürlich der Mailer selbst)
in den Header als In-Reply-To und fertig :) Der Mailclient kann dann
daraus die Baumstruktur rekonstruieren.

Gruß,
Peda


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[Talk-GB] Snowdonia National Park Boundary

2015-05-28 Thread Colin Smale

 

Hi everyone, 

The boundary relation for Snowdonia National Park is severely messed up
at the moment. 

Is there anyone who can sort this out? I don't mind doing the editing
but I kind of resent fixing somebody else's damage and I haven't got a
source for the boundary vectors. 

The latest editor of the relation is SK53 but he is a respected,
experienced mapper and I don't believe he would do this. Querying the
history on the website just times out so I can't easily see when it went
pear-shaped and how it used to be 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245 [1] 

Cheers, 

Colin 

Links:
--
[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245
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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Am 28.05.2015 um 19:51 schrieb Manfred A. Reiter:
 *Ernst gemeinter Vorschlag:* Ihr redet mal mit Eurem Dozenten, ob
 der für Harald Hartmann die Fahrtkosten und ein Honorar zahlen
 kann, dann hättet Ihr jemanden, der einerseits die Community kennt
 und der andererseits weiß, wie man solche Umfragen einigermaßen ;-)
 gesichert durchführen kann.

Danke für die Blumen ... aber ich denke das sollte jeder Erst-Semester
Informatiker hinbekommen ... öhm verdammt, ich habe ja gar nicht
studiert ... naja egal.

Letztendlich gibt es ja da, am eigenen Leibe erfahren - naja so
dramatisch war das gar nicht - noch ein ganz anderes grundsätzliches
Problem bzw. Erkenntnis: das man mit Forum, Mailingliste und
Wochennotiz nur einen Bruchteil der aktiven deutschen Mapper
erreicht. Seit Januar haben gerade einmal 293 OSM Accounts mindestens
eine Umfrage auf der Umfrageplattform beantwortet, ca. 50% davon
mindestens fünf Fragen. Und wenn man den anderen Statistiken trauen
darf - ich bin jetzt zu faul die rauszusuchen - sind definitiv sehr
viel mehr Accounts mit mappen aktiv.

Ich bin jetzt seit gut einem Jahr aktiv dabei und subjektiv betrachtet
mögen es maximal 50 Mapper sein, die mir in diesem Jahr mit
penetranter Regelmäßigkeit in der Community über den Weg laufen ;-)
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[Talk-tr] openstreetmap.org.tr

2015-05-28 Thread Roman Neumüller


merhabalar,

openstreetmap.org.tr çıkmıyor artık...
Fakat domain adı 2019-05-30 kadar geçerli...

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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

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Hash: SHA1

Dem stimme ich voll und ganz zu, deswegen habe ich ja auch Vor- und
Nachteile geschrieben ;-)
Letztendlich gibt es hier definitiv zwei Gruppierungen, siehe auch die
Umfrage nach Transparenz oder Anonymität [1]

[1]: http://osm.haraldhartmann.de/umfrage/poll/5
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=XlIB
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Re: [OSM-talk] Neat use of OpenStreetMap

2015-05-28 Thread Robert Kaiser


Paul Johnson schrieb:

OpenBMap http://radiocells.org/

It's similar to Google's location services or Mozilla's location service,
but free.


What's not free in Mozilla's service?

Also, I really, really hope my access point will not get into any really 
open-to-everyone database because I don't want people to follow me 
around by database request when I'm moving somewhere and don't want to 
be easily found.


KaiRo



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Re: [OSM-talk] Reporting routing problems


W dniu 28.05.2015 18:33, Janko Mihelić napisał(a):

I'd like the following procedure:



 4. Later a mapper clicks the note, and it shows the text and the
problematic route.


I'm also interested in 5. - standard procedure for reporting routing 
errors to engine operators. =}


For OSRM I have just opened an issue on GitHub ( 
https://github.com/Project-OSRM/osrm-backend/issues ) and that's all - 
mission accomplished.


With MapQuest it was much harder to find how can I report another bug. 
Finally I have found Residential Map or Route Errors link on Support 
page ( https://support.mapquest.com/hc/en-us - looks like the link 
itself is dynamic, because it has issue number included). Help service 
was as quick as in OSRM, but they said MapQuest currently support is 
only active for USA and Canada and while they hope international routing 
will be also supported, they can only recommend me Open MapQuest with 
OSM data. =} After I said that I originally came from OSM itself, the 
help line operator said that he will share this with our routing team 
but please note that we are not actively supporting international 
routing right now so I unfortunately can't make any promises as to when 
we might get to this. Maybe our technical team should talk with theirs 
to make better feedback channel available?


We're left with GraphHopper feedback for now, but I can't say anything 
about it, because I just don't have an issue with their service. =}


--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]



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[OSM-talk-fr] modification page Wiki

2015-05-28 Thread bernard


Bonjour,
J'essaie de modifier la page wiki Boulangerie


1- je voudrai élargir une colonne ; ici la colonne Description (pour 
faciliter la lecture)



Un rapide aperçu sur le wiki ne laisse à penser que ce n'est pas possible.
Peut-on élargir artificiellement la colonne .. 
Description... ?

ou y at'il une méthode mieux adaptée ?
Merci de vos réponses

Cordialement
bernard

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] SeFaireConnaitre :(

2015-05-28 Thread Stéphane Péneau


J'en ai vu aussi, mais il y a du mieux.
Leur procédure reste bizarre :
Un point à un mauvais emplacement est créé (milieu de la route)
Puis, dans un autre changeset, il est recalé.
C'est le cas de ton exemple, reste à voir si sa position actuelle est la 
bonne.


Stf

Le 28/05/2015 19:25, Pierre-Yves Berrard a écrit :
Recrudescence de création de points mal placés de manière automatique 
par l'utilisateur SeFaireConnaitre.
Un exemple (parmi beaucoup) : 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31523303


Ce contributeur (une agence de com) semble ignorer les remarques qu'on 
lui a fait à ce sujet...

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-fr/2014-November/073250.html


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 08:53 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
 As an example Botswana has English as an official language and Setswana
 as the overwhelming majority language. However it also has 20 smaller
 languages, some of them shared with neighboring nations and some very
 small local ones. Those languages already fight for their existence as
 the English names are given to their villages on official maps, with
 maybe the local in a footnote. Using OSM we can present them with maps
 of their own homes in their own languages.

That's something I would support.

What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning name
tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

2015-05-28 Thread Manfred A. Reiter

Hallo David, Susanne, *,

Friede!

Michael meinte schon, dass Ihr heute viel gelernt habt. Das glaube ich auch.

Das Teil jetzt einfach durchzuboxen bringt gar mE nichts. Wenn Ihr ein
valides Ergebnis haben wollt, lässt sich in der Form so nicht erreichen!

Wenn Ihr die OSMCommunity erreichen wollt, dann gehört das Forum dazu. Wenn
Ihr ausdrücklich sagt, wir wollen nur die MLCommunity haben, dann halt eben
nur das. Dann muss das aber auch bei Euren Auswertungen deutlich werden.
Nur inwieweit die Aussagen dann die deutsche Community abbilden, ist mit
verlaub gesagt zweifelhaft.

*Ernst gemeinter Vorschlag:* Ihr redet mal mit Eurem Dozenten, ob der für
Harald Hartmann die Fahrtkosten und ein Honorar zahlen kann, dann hättet
Ihr jemanden, der einerseits die Community kennt und der andererseits weiß,
wie man solche Umfragen einigermaßen ;-) gesichert durchführen kann.

*Vorteil für Euch:* Ihr lernt noch was zum Thema Umfragen und Statistik,
Ihr versteht danach auch sehr viel mehr von OSM und die Ergebnisse werden
valide. ;-)

Nein, ich bin nicht mit Harald verheiratet oder verschwägert und ich habe
ihn auch nicht vorher gefragt ob ich das posten darf, geschweige denn kenne
ich seinen Tagessatz.

Aber mE sollte das ein Weg sein, der Euch auch in Eurem Studium weiter
bringt.

LG

Manfred


Am 28. Mai 2015 um 18:16 schrieb David Stoitner 
davidstoit...@stud.uni-frankfurt.de:

 Hallo liebe Mitglieder der Mailingliste,

 es ist schade, dass wir Euch so sehr verärgert haben.
 Wir haben im Plenum über die Kritik bezüglich einer Veröffentlichung der
 Umfrage im Forum diskutiert. Wir haben uns anfänglich absichtlich dafür
 entschieden, den Fragebogen nur über die Mailingliste zu verbreiten.
 Dennoch wollen wir uns mit den Admins des Forums in Kontakt setzen, um zu
 prüfen, ob wir einen Forumsbeitrag schreiben können, bei dem nur die
 registrierten Forumsmitglieder Zugriff auf den Link haben.
 Wir hoffen, dass wir schnell zu einer Lösung kommen, damit die Umfrage
 auch im Forum gepostet wird.

 Wir möchte noch einmal darauf hinweisen, dass wir eine studentische Gruppe
 sind und dies der erste von uns konzipierte Fragebogen ist. Deswegen sind
 wir natürlich auch nicht fehlerfrei ;-). Es würde uns freuen, wenn sich
 dennoch einige entscheiden würden, an unserer Umfrahe teilzunehmen, weil
 davon natürlich auch unsere Seminararbeit abhängt.

 Viele Grüße
 David



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] La Wallonie picarde à vélo - TEST

2015-05-28 Thread Matthieu Gaillet

Hi Ben, thanks for your answer. You make a point here by submitting this 
document : it wasn’t clear to me that such document existed and was mandatory, 
at least against a simple authorisation email.

Now I think that a public administration will for sure be afraid to sign such a 
document. They hate written things ;-)

Let’s wait and see. Up to now : no answer.

Matthieu

 On 27 May 2015, at 23:24, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 A bit difficult for me to follow (sorry, french still not very good, shame on 
 me!) but if you want to use data like this you should have **them** sign a 
 agreement that they grant permission to use the data in OSM and release it as 
 ODbL. An email is never enough as permission to use data.
 
 The template letters can be found on the wiki:
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission#Letter_Template3 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission#Letter_Template3
 
 I agree with Jo here:
 
 Donc IDETA doît décider s'ils veulent que nous effacions ce que a déjà été 
 repris (avec leur permission)
 Et ils doivent décider si nous pouvons continuer avec les données qui nous 
 étaient mises à disposition.
 De toute façon nous ne pouvons pas signer ce nouvel accord draconique qui 
 contredit ce qui était convenu auparavant. Donc pas moyen de mettre à jour 
 les données, sauf en les répérant sur place avec un peu plus de peine.
 
 Met vriendelijke groeten,
 Best regards,
 
 Ben Abelshausen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread David Cuenca Tudela

I have one general question.

Some OSM relations contain a link to a Wikidata item. For those relations,
would it be possible to automatically import the names in several languages
and do so in a way that changes in OSM also change Wikidata?

Thanks,
Micru

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 6:37 PM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote:

 On 28/05/2015 16:38, Andrew Guertin wrote:


 A quick internet search shows plenty of results for Абергавенни,
 including Wikipedia, hotel booking sites, and Harry Potter websites, and by
 looking at Google's book results, you can see that it's been in use since
 at least the 1800s. And with just a few minutes' look, I found someone from
 the next city over using the name[1]. I understand this was just an
 example, but it seems to show the opposite of what you wanted. The town
 with the English name Abergavenny also has a Russian name Абергавенни,
 which is in use by locals, and has been established for hundreds of years.


 No, it does not.  Abergavenny / Y Fenni has actual names that people from
 there use to describe the place (and appears on signs) in two languages;
 Абергавенни is merely a translation of one of them. It's not verifiable
 on the ground.

 There is a fundamental difference between an actual name for a place and
 a translation of one of those names - it's that distinction that we would
 lose by populating name:ru, name:xx or whatever alongside name:cy and
 name:en.  The russian-language link talking about Abergavenny Food Festival
 does indeed use the word Абергавенни- and that's a translation of
 Abergavenny in that message (they even put Abergavenny in brackets
 afterwards to make it clear that that's what it is - it's clearly not
 guaranteed to be understood on its own).

 If Абергавенни is added as name:ru for Abergavenny, how would we tell
 the real names (the ones that people have historically used locally to
 refer to the place) from the tranlations?

 Cheers,

 Andy



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[Talk-cl] Instalación local mapa de Chile

2015-05-28 Thread uno dos

Hola estimados. Recién me uní a la lista. Escribo debido a que quiero realizar 
una instalación local y tengo una duda.Inicialmente había posteado la consulta 
en la lista newbie de osm y ellos me comentaron acerca de la lista nacional.Mi 
deseo es pasar la capa a una instalación local para poder consultarla 
internamente, sin acceso a internet. Para eso he descargado el .osm desde 
aquí:http://download.geofabrik.de/south-america/chile.htmlEl problema que tengo 
es que, cuando la importo o la abro desde una herramienta GIS como QGis 2.8.1 
veo las capas:- waterways- roads- railways- points- places- natural- landuse- 
buildings
Pero no aparece la cartografía base sobre la que se despliega esa información 
(el mapa). Los bordes o esquinas del país no se ven.Lo que he intentado es usar 
algunos shp gratuitos descargados desde internet y he puesto encima las capas 
de información de OSM, pero esos mapas no son tan detallados/precisos como los 
de openstreetmap, especialmente en el sector sur donde hay gran cantidad de 
islas.Aquí envío una cap de lo que puedo ver con 
QGIS:http://postimg.org/image/3m0nazcpb/
Probé también con la capa completa de sudamérica descargada desde el mismo 
sitio y pasa lo mismo.¿Saben ustedes si algo estoy haciendo mal? ¿en las capas 
descargadas debería aparecer el fondo (mapa)?Cualquier idea, ayuda estaría 
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] modification page Wiki

2015-05-28 Thread Francescu GAROBY

Bonsoir,
La colonne Description est en fait basée sur un template :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:ValueDescription
Il te faut donc jouer avec les possibilités offertes par ce template, pour
faire ce que tu souhaites. Peut-être en renseignant le style ?

Francescu

Le 28 mai 2015 20:27, bernard bernard.a...@laposte.net a écrit :

 Bonjour,
 J'essaie de modifier la page wiki Boulangerie


 1- je voudrai élargir une colonne ; ici la colonne Description (pour
 faciliter la lecture)


 Un rapide aperçu sur le wiki ne laisse à penser que ce n'est pas possible.
 Peut-on élargir artificiellement la colonne ..
 Description... ?
 ou y at'il une méthode mieux adaptée ?
 Merci de vos réponses

 Cordialement
 bernard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Jóhannes Birgir Jensson


Þann 28.5.2015 15:38, skrifaði Andrew Guertin:
While your exact words here aren't wrong, I think you're severely 
underestimating what objects have names in what languages. Russia and 
the UK are major world powers that have had a lot of interaction as 
both allies and enemies, economically, militarily, and culturally, and 
there are tens to hundreds of thousands of people who were born in 
Russia living in the UK[2]. It would be pretty absurd to for place 
names NOT to exist, and as shown above the evidence shows that they do 
exist and are in use.


For that reason I think the revert was wrong, and the edit should be 
allowed to be re-performed.


I agree that the revert was maybe somewhat overzealous. While we do not 
have a viable and published method and procedures in place on how to 
handle multi-lingual names in a different manner, e.g. with an outside 
source, then reverting any name translations is hard to argue for.


The multi-lingual aspect of OSM is one of its absolutely strongest 
advantages. Being able to create maps of regions in the languages of the 
local population is quite simply fantastical and maybe under-appreciated 
by those who speak dominant languages, worldwide or regional.


As an example Botswana has English as an official language and Setswana 
as the overwhelming majority language. However it also has 20 smaller 
languages, some of them shared with neighboring nations and some very 
small local ones. Those languages already fight for their existence as 
the English names are given to their villages on official maps, with 
maybe the local in a footnote. Using OSM we can present them with maps 
of their own homes in their own languages.


So the question is also, do we outsource this strength of OSM? Wikidata 
has notability problems and so I'm wary of it, no matter the guidelines 
there is no shortage of people who deem their judgement in what human 
knowledge is worth retaining to be superior to everything else.


Is name inflation bad? Doubtful in my mind, even the opposite.

--Jói / Stalfur

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[OSM-talk-be] For OSM copyright enforcers: strangest map yet

2015-05-28 Thread André Pirard

Hi,

I stumbled on this map http://www.balnam.be/boninne/sentier/21.
They've got the Google Pegman, markers, zoom bar and logo.
They've got a Google Terms of Use
https://www.google.com/intl/en_US/help/terms_maps.html.
But, gulp, the map is OSM (what I've just mapped, looked like an echo ;-) )

In fact, the map is multi-background.
There seems to be a cookie to remember your preference.
And the default preference was OSM as I got it from Google Search.

But yet...
Cheers

André.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Andrew Guertin


On 05/28/2015 12:37 PM, SomeoneElse wrote:

There is a fundamental difference between an actual name for a place
and a translation of one of those names


I DO agree with this statement[1].

However, I think that the point at which a word stops being a 
transliteration and starts being a native word is much sooner than you 
seem to. I'm not a linguist, but if I had to pin down when I think a 
word becomes part of a language, I'd say whenever the person using it 
doesn't think they're code-switching.[2]


It's clear that in many cases, the people writing Абергавенни don't 
consider themselves to ever be switching out of Russian. To me, that 
makes Абергавенни an actual name for the place.


 The town with the English name Abergavenny also has a
 Russian name Абергавенни, which is in use by locals, and has been
 established for hundreds of years.

 No, it does not.  Abergavenny / Y Fenni has actual names that people
 from there use to describe the place (and appears on signs) in two
 languages; Абергавенни is merely a translation of one of them. It's
 not verifiable on the ground.

The question of actual names versus transliterations is addressed above, 
but with respect to on the ground, I assert that if you asked a local 
who spoke Russian the question What is the Russian-language name for 
this town?, they would reply Абергавенни.


Assuming that assertion is correct, is on the ground satisfied?

Do you think the assertion is incorrect?


--Andrew


[1] I think the word translation is wrong here. Translation takes 
something in one language and expresses the same meaning in another 
language. Transliteration takes something in one language and expresses 
the same sounds in another language.


[2] Obviously there's a separate barrier for something to be generally 
accepted rather than just one person's made up word. That barrier is 
pretty low in the case of a place name, where most people would make up 
the same new word anyway.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Snowdonia National Park Boundary


On 28/05/2015 20:12, Colin Smale wrote:


 Querying the history on the website just times out so I can't easily 
see when it went pear-shaped and how it used to be


http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245




http://osm.mapki.com/history/relation.php?id=287245

shows recent changes to it (I haven't been through and seen what should 
/ shouldn't have been deleted).


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

Am 28. Mai 2015 um 21:26 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:

 Was die Gefahr des Mehrfachausfüllens betrifft; ich vermute mal, die
 gibt es allenthalben im Web, und es dürfte gewiss statistische
 Methoden geben, dem zu begegnen.



ich halte die Angst davor für ziemlich übertrieben, es geht für die Mapper
ja um nichts, und es ist schon nicht wenig, alle Fragen einmal auszufüllen,
seine Zeit dafür herzugeben, es mehrfach zu tun (oder gar einen Bot zu
schreiben, der es tut), ist glaube ich unrealistisch.

Gruß,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 09:19 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
 other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning name
 tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.

*Especially* if their reasoning was that this makes it nicer for them to
run a tank through these places in their own-language war simulation
with their buddies.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hallo,

On 05/28/2015 06:50 PM, Harald Hartmann wrote:
 Tja, hat halt irgendwie alles seine Vor- und auch Nachteile wenn 
 man Umfragen mit vorheriger OAuth Anmeldung erstellt und somit 
 sichergestellt ist, dass jeder OSM Account (!=OSM User) auch nur 
 einmal das Dinges ausfüllen kann :D

Um ehrlich zu sein, wenn eine Umfrage wie diese hier mit einer
OAuth-Abfrage erschiene, würde ich einen deutlich lauteren Aufschrei
erwarten. Schliesslich sind gerade die Power-User, die als erste bei
so einer Umfrage mitmachen würden, in aller Regel nicht geizig mit der
öffentlichen Zuordnung zwischen ihrem Usernamen und ihrer Identität.

Ich zumindest würde einer mir unbekannten Partei sicherlich keine
persönlichen Fragen beantworten, wenn ich mich vorher mit meinem
OSM-Usernamen einloggen soll; ich würde das sogar als dreist
empfinden, und ich bin sicher, dass ich damit nicht alleine stehe.

Was die Gefahr des Mehrfachausfüllens betrifft; ich vermute mal, die
gibt es allenthalben im Web, und es dürfte gewiss statistische
Methoden geben, dem zu begegnen.

Bye
Frederik

- -- 
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1

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Re: [Talk-GB] Snowdonia National Park Boundary

2015-05-28 Thread Colin Smale

 

Dammit, how did I miss that one? Thanks for pointing it out. It's fixed
now and the analyser now comes up green. 

On 2015-05-29 01:57, Dave F. wrote: 

 Hi Colin
 
 FYI
 There appears to be a minor overlap on the Eastern marker:
 http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeMap?relationId=287245 [2]
 
 On 29/05/2015 00:46, Colin Smale wrote: 
 
 Thanks to the people who pointed me at helpful tools. I have fixed it up as 
 best as I can for the moment - obviously erroneous stretches of coastline 
 have been removed, missing segments have been added where a bridge has been 
 inserted, that kind of thing. Geometrically it looks OK, and it seems very 
 roughly to correspond to the illustrative map on Wikipedia. 
 
 //colin 
 
 On 2015-05-28 21:12, Colin Smale wrote: 
 
 Hi everyone, 
 
 The boundary relation for Snowdonia National Park is severely messed up at 
 the moment. 
 
 Is there anyone who can sort this out? I don't mind doing the editing but I 
 kind of resent fixing somebody else's damage and I haven't got a source for 
 the boundary vectors. 
 
 The latest editor of the relation is SK53 but he is a respected, experienced 
 mapper and I don't believe he would do this. Querying the history on the 
 website just times out so I can't easily see when it went pear-shaped and how 
 it used to be 
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245 [3] 
 
 Cheers, 
 
 Colin 
 
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Links:
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[3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245
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Re: [Talk-cl] Instalación local mapa de Chile

2015-05-28 Thread uno dos

Estimado, gracias por responderLo he intentado con pgsql + postgis también. Me 
pasa lo mismo. Quizás no he sabido explicar bien lo que necesito. Yo leo los 
.shp y se vé la información (nombre de ríos, caminos, islas, etc) y las 
geometrías que los representan. Lo que no veo (y desconozco si viene incluído 
en el .shp) es el territorio o terreno. No me importa demasiado si es el mapa 
politico, con relieve u otro. 
Por ahora lo que hice fue descargar el mapa de las areas administrativas desde 
http://www.diva-gis.org/ y sobre ese estoy proyectando los .shp descargados de 
geofabrik.de, sin embargo en ese mapa los bordes son un poco toscos y algunos 
sectores de las regiones sur, que debieran ser entradas de agua, están 
cubiertas de tierra según el .shp.. ¿Estaré haciendo algo mal? ¿no se me ocurré 
que?
¿O el terreno está en la db completa de osm que pesa como 50GB comprimida?. En 
su versión local, ¿usted también tiene el terreno nacional? o esa parte la 
consulta directamente a un wms externo?  Lo que necesito que se vea y que no 
aparece es esto:
http://d-maps.com/m/america/chili/chili13.gif

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on d-maps.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |


Saludos



 On Thursday, May 28, 2015 6:41 PM, Álvaro Monares G. 
amona...@dcc.uchile.cl wrote:
   

  Hola uno dos, puede que sea problema del lector, lo otro es que bajes el 
shape directamente
 http://download.geofabrik.de/south-america/chile-latest.shp.zip
 En mi caso personal lo tengo en una bd de postgres+postgis que pasa por un 
preproceso.
 Si estas viendo cosas como waterways, railways etc, que raro que no aparezca 
algo como
 highway que son las calles.
 
 Saludos
 Álvaro Monares G.
 
 
 El 28-05-2015 a las 15:54, uno dos escribió:
  
  Hola estimados. Recién me uní a la lista. Escribo debido a que quiero 
realizar una instalación local y tengo una duda. Inicialmente había posteado la 
consulta en la lista newbie de osm y ellos me comentaron acerca de la lista 
nacional. Mi deseo es pasar la capa a una instalación local para poder 
consultarla internamente, sin acceso a internet. Para eso he descargado el .osm 
desde aquí: http://download.geofabrik.de/south-america/chile.html El problema 
que tengo es que, cuando la importo o la abro desde una herramienta GIS como 
QGis 2.8.1 veo las capas: - waterways - roads - railways - points - places - 
natural - landuse - buildings Pero no aparece la cartografía base sobre la que 
se despliega esa información (el mapa). Los bordes o esquinas del país no se 
ven. Lo que he intentado es usar algunos shp gratuitos descargados desde 
internet y he puesto encima las capas de información de OSM, pero esos mapas no 
son tan detallados/precisos como los de openstreetmap, especialmente en el 
sector sur donde hay gran cantidad de islas. Aquí envío una cap de lo que puedo 
ver con QGIS: http://postimg.org/image/3m0nazcpb/Probé también con la capa 
completa de sudamérica descargada desde el mismo sitio y pasa lo mismo. ¿Saben 
ustedes si algo estoy haciendo mal? ¿en las capas descargadas debería aparecer 
el fondo (mapa)? Cualquier idea, ayuda estaría genial Saludos  
  
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Re: [Talk-in] Taginfo for India OSM

2015-05-28 Thread Naveen Francis

Hi Yogi,

Is there any tool to know how many kms of NH is covered in OSM
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.in/tags/network=IN%3ANH  ?

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.in/keys/network#values

Thanks,
Naveen



On 27 May 2015 at 13:52, Yogesh योगि yog...@karnatakaeducation.org.in
wrote:

  Right, and tags like noexit=no
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.in/tags/noexit=no are still in use
 although it's suggested
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:noexit%3Dno not to use. May be
 we'll find many more which can be helpful in improving our map data.

 And thanks to Sajjad and Satya, the taginfo instance is now live at new
 address -

 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.in/

 Henceforth, everyone please use the above address to find the tagging
 stats for India. Also added the same to the taginfo page
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Taginfo/Sites on OpenStreetMap wiki.




 On Monday 25 May 2015 11:58 PM, Arun Ganesh wrote:


 Yogesh, this is really useful. Already see we need an anganwadi tag
 http://rmsa.karnatakaeducation.org.in/search?q=anganwadi#values

  --
  Arun Ganesh
 (planemad) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Planemad


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 Sent from an Electronic Device


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Re: [Talk-GB] Snowdonia National Park Boundary

2015-05-28 Thread Colin Smale

 

Thanks to the people who pointed me at helpful tools. I have fixed it up
as best as I can for the moment - obviously erroneous stretches of
coastline have been removed, missing segments have been added where a
bridge has been inserted, that kind of thing. Geometrically it looks OK,
and it seems very roughly to correspond to the illustrative map on
Wikipedia. 

//colin 

On 2015-05-28 21:12, Colin Smale wrote: 

 Hi everyone, 
 
 The boundary relation for Snowdonia National Park is severely messed up at 
 the moment. 
 
 Is there anyone who can sort this out? I don't mind doing the editing but I 
 kind of resent fixing somebody else's damage and I haven't got a source for 
 the boundary vectors. 
 
 The latest editor of the relation is SK53 but he is a respected, experienced 
 mapper and I don't believe he would do this. Querying the history on the 
 website just times out so I can't easily see when it went pear-shaped and how 
 it used to be 
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245 [1] 
 
 Cheers, 
 
 Colin 
 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Snowdonia National Park Boundary

2015-05-28 Thread Dave F.


Hi Colin

FYI
There appears to be a minor overlap on the Eastern marker:
http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeMap?relationId=287245

On 29/05/2015 00:46, Colin Smale wrote:


Thanks to the people who pointed me at helpful tools. I have fixed it 
up as best as I can for the moment - obviously erroneous stretches of 
coastline have been removed, missing segments have been added where a 
bridge has been inserted, that kind of thing. Geometrically it looks 
OK, and it seems very roughly to correspond to the illustrative map on 
Wikipedia.


//colin

On 2015-05-28 21:12, Colin Smale wrote:


Hi everyone,

The boundary relation for Snowdonia National Park is severely messed 
up at the moment.


Is there anyone who can sort this out? I don't mind doing the editing 
but I kind of resent fixing somebody else's damage and I haven't got 
a source for the boundary vectors.


The latest editor of the relation is SK53 but he is a respected, 
experienced mapper and I don't believe he would do this. Querying the 
history on the website just times out so I can't easily see when it 
went pear-shaped and how it used to be


http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/287245

Cheers,

Colin


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Maarten Deen


On 2015-05-28 22:20, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 09:56 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:

What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning
name tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.



Where do you draw the limit?


Does that mean you agree there should be a limit, or would you allow
each and every of the several thousand languages on the planet to add
their name tag to the London node? How would disputes be handled?


name:en is on thousands of nodes but in
many of these places it is not an official or even a minority language
but an extra language.


Yes, I've thought about that; name:en is very useful for me but
ultimately, if the locals don't use it, then it isn't on the ground,
and then it shouldn't be in OSM really.


So, the map should only be useful to people living in the vicinity of 
certain places? Like my previously issue, countries which use a 
different alphabet then yours. Place names in China are ususally only in 
Chinese, so I should not be able to read them on the map?


I say again: the fact that I can not read names in China, Russia, Laos, 
Israel, most arabic countries is one of my biggest gripes with the map. 
Why should I not be able to use the map in thos countries and why should 
people from those countries who probably may not all have a good 
understanding of the Latin alphabet not be able to use the map where the 
alphabet is Latin?
For that you need transliterated names which probably are not used by 
locals and are usually not on local street signs so not verifiable.


Maarten


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Re: [Talk-de] waterway=riverbank



Zitat von Markus liste12a4...@gmx.de:


Habe hier eine merkwürdige Änderung entdeckt:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:waterway=riverdiff=nextoldid=1176333

Das würde ein weltweites Tagging-Schema zerstören...

Wer weiss Genaueres?


Nein, aber vielleicht hat das mit ein paar Beiträgen gestern im Forum zu tun:
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=505703#p505703 ff.



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[Talk-de] waterway=riverbank

2015-05-28 Thread Markus


Habe hier eine merkwürdige Änderung entdeckt:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:waterway=riverdiff=nextoldid=1176333

Das würde ein weltweites Tagging-Schema zerstören...

Wer weiss Genaueres?

Gruss, Markus

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Re: [Talk-lv] OSM kopienas sadarbība ar latviskās Vikipēdijas kopienu

2015-05-28 Thread Mārtiņš Bruņenieks

Sveiki!

Pirmkārt, prieks par interesi.

Ja runājam par objektiem, tad šajā septembrī pirmoreiz plānojam piedalīties
globālajā Wiki Loves Monuments konkursā [1]. Pasākums notiek vairākos
desmitos valstu un tajā tiek fotografēti kultūras pieminekļi. Latvijā mums
ir izveidoti saraksti no VKPAI [2], kuros klāt ir linki ērtai ielādei
Commons. Bildēt šos objektus var jau tagad, bet ja ir vēlme uz kaut ko
pretendēt, tad labākās bildes var pataupīt septembrim un ielādēt tad
(bildēt drīkst arī iepriekš). Konkursā uzvarēt var atsevišķa izcila bilde,
nevis 30 labas. Mēģināsim piesaistīt kādu sponsoru, lai ar balvām motivētu
kūtrākos. Protams, visas bildes ir ar brīvo licenci.

Latvijas autortiesību likumā gan ir tāda problēma kā panorāmas brīvības
neesamība.[3] Tas neļauj Commons lādēt lielu daļa 20./21. gadsimta ēku un
pieminekļu, tā īsti droši var likt tikai vecas baznīcas. Vēl domāsi, kā to
risināt, iespējams paši no Commons kopēsim uz latvisko Vikipēdiju, cerībā,
ka likums tiks mainīts (ir aktīvisti, kas kvalitatīvi darbojas ES līmenī).
Paši šajā sakarā pieteicām manabalss.lv iniciatīvu [4].

Bez kultūras pieminekļiem ilustrācijām vajadzīgi arī Rīgas ielu attēli.
Protams, arī par citām pilsētām der, bet raksti ir tikai par dažu pilsētu
ielām [5]. Daļai no tām varētu būt problēmas ar temata nozīmīgumu. Protams,
arī visādi dabas objekti, ezeri, upes, dižakmeņi, alas.

[1] http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/
[2]
https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikiprojekts:Kult%C5%ABras_pieminek%C4%BCi_Vikip%C4%93dij%C4%81_2015/Saraksti
[3]
https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikiprojekts:Freedom_of_Panorama_un_pieminek%C4%BCu_autorties%C4%ABbas
[4]
https://manabalss.lv/par-publiskas-telpas-vizualas-attelosanas-brivibu/show
[5] https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Ielas_Latvij%C4%81

 Mārtiņš

2015-05-28 9:40 GMT+03:00 Viesturs Zarins viest...@gmail.com:

 +1, mēs labprāt sabildēt
 *u konkrētas vajadzīgās vietas un saliktu iekš mapillary vai savādāk.*
 Viesturs

 On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM Kārlis lis...@gunta.lv wrote:

 Labs vakars!
 Varbūt Vikipēdijas kopiena varētu sataisīt sarakstu ar ielām vai
 objektiem, kurus nepieciešams nofotografēt?

 On 2015.05.27. 20:58, Rich wrote:
  On 21/05/15 18:04, Mārtiņš Bruņenieks wrote:
  ...
  * Kartēšanas pasākumi apvienoti ar objektu fotografēšanu. Šeit problēma
  varētu būt tāda, ka mums no objektiem interesē pāris raksturīgi ielas
  foto un kaut kādi arhitektūras pieminekļi. Jums tā lieta lēnāka un
  pamatīgāka. Attēlus var lādēt
  šeit: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81kumlapa
  nure. tieši par tēmu.
 
  https://tools.wmflabs.org/mapillary-commons/mapillary2commons/
 
  ja vikipēdijai nav kādas ielas bilžu, var pabrowsēt mapillary. ja tur
  ir, knakš un commonos iekšā :)


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Re: [Talk-lv] OSM kopienas sadarbība ar latviskās Vikipēdijas kopienu

2015-05-28 Thread Viesturs Zarins

+1, mēs labprāt sabildēt
*u konkrētas vajadzīgās vietas un saliktu iekš mapillary vai savādāk.*
Viesturs

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM Kārlis lis...@gunta.lv wrote:

 Labs vakars!
 Varbūt Vikipēdijas kopiena varētu sataisīt sarakstu ar ielām vai
 objektiem, kurus nepieciešams nofotografēt?

 On 2015.05.27. 20:58, Rich wrote:
  On 21/05/15 18:04, Mārtiņš Bruņenieks wrote:
  ...
  * Kartēšanas pasākumi apvienoti ar objektu fotografēšanu. Šeit problēma
  varētu būt tāda, ka mums no objektiem interesē pāris raksturīgi ielas
  foto un kaut kādi arhitektūras pieminekļi. Jums tā lieta lēnāka un
  pamatīgāka. Attēlus var lādēt
  šeit: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81kumlapa
  nure. tieši par tēmu.
 
  https://tools.wmflabs.org/mapillary-commons/mapillary2commons/
 
  ja vikipēdijai nav kādas ielas bilžu, var pabrowsēt mapillary. ja tur
  ir, knakš un commonos iekšā :)


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[talk-ph] Drupal developer for IOM

2015-05-28 Thread maning sambale

FYI,

IOM is in need of a developer familiar with Drupal who can help
develop further the platform

communityresponsemap.org

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-2WZQ1DwK_xNEh5Wkp2UndwV3UtTjA1aHVmNGd3ZmFHVFc0/view?usp=sharing

Please submit letter and CV to:
o...@iom.int for the attention of Chris Lom.

-- 
cheers,
maning
--
Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
https://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
http://twitter.com/maningsambale
--

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 27/05/2015 22:56, Andy Mabbett wrote:
A demonstrator, using Wikidata labels, is:
http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/demo/map/ (choose select
language). Coders might enjoy viewing the source code.

That's interesting, but seems just to do multiple http transactions to
get the names it needs (something that's not really scalable). What I'd
typically want to do with wikidata would be something like:

1) define a series of properties that I'm interested in.

2) extract that information from wikidata (either a structured download
or from some sort of dump) in one go, not as a series of http transactions.

3) load that into local database tables where it can be easily accessed.

(1) might be something like villages in Derbyshire or mills in the
Derwent valley or something broader (suppose I wanted to include who
owns what building in a database containing OSM data). Unfortunately I
don't see this in any sort of sensible format - I just see a bunch of
web pages like http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:List_of_properties
which isn't really helpful.

2) must be a problem that people have solved already

As ever, stackoverflow has some of the answers but some of the questions
such as
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28391434/how-to-parse-bigdata-json-file-wikidata-in-c-efficiently
suggest to me I really wouldn't start from there if I were you (though
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29886388/get-all-wikidata-items-that-are-an-instance-of-a-given-item
is closer).

I suspect that these are problems that someone, somewhere has already
solved, but I'm not seeing obvious answers that aren't a bit of a cludgy
hack, or requires something from Google that's going away in 32 days, or
whatever.

Cheers,

Andy

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[Talk-cat] el diari Ara utilitza OSM

2015-05-28 Thread pitort

Avui el diari Ara bublica un article sobre les eleccions i utilitza mapes basats en l'OSM i CartoDB:http://www.ara.cat/tema_del_dia/sobiranisme-reforca-arreu-del-territori_0_1364863573.html---Free, fast and secure email: https://www.eclipso.eu



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Re: [Talk-at] Grenzen

2015-05-28 Thread Norbert Wenzel

On 05/27/2015 09:11 PM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote:
 Den Satz wir mappen nicht für die Renderer kann ich nicht mehr hören. Für
 wen mappen wir denn? Für die Nutzer! Es bringt nichts sich auf die Renderer
 auszureden, wenn die Nutzer den Schaden haben.
 
 Viele Fundis unter den Mappern haben einen eingeschränkten Horizont, sie
 sehen nur bis zur Datenbank, dort hört die Welt auf. Eine Datenbank steht
 aber nur in der Mitte einer Toolchain, und wenn am Ende nichts rauskommt,
 dann hat nicht nur der Renderer versagt, sondern das ganze System.

Viele Fundis unter den Mappern haben einen eingeschränkten Horizont, sie
sehen nur bis zum Rendering auf der openstreetmap.org Karte, dort hört
die Welt auf. Ein einzelnes Rendering ist aber nur ein sichtbarer Teil
von Openstreetmap, und wenn am Ende nicht das rauskommt, was einzelne
Leute sehen wollen, dann hat nicht nur der eine Renderer versagt,
sondern das ganze System muss dann angeblich dringend so zurecht gebogen
werden, dass man genau das sieht, was der eine eben sehen will. Egal wie
man das erreicht und ob andere, das vielleicht gar nicht oder anders
sehen wollen.


Ich wollt mich hier eigentlich raushalten, aber den Part mit dem
eingeschränkten Horizont kann man ganz ähnlich auch in die andere
Richtung bringen, ohne dass die Meldung richtiger oder klüger wird. Das
bringt uns nicht weiter, ganz im Gegenteil. Es gibt halt bei OSM mehr
als ein Interesse und die jeweils anderen sind halt dann automatisch die
mit dem beschränkten Horizont. Wird vermutlich nicht immer funktionieren
so eine Weltsicht (außer man muss gerade einen Irakkrieg anzetteln, aber
darum geht's hier ja gottseidank nicht).

Norbert

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Paweł Paprota

But what exactly is the problem that you're trying to solve with this
idea? Database size? There are much bigger contributing factors to
database size than this, like rampant data redundancy everywhere,
botched mechanical edits etc. Complexity of the UI of editors? I'm sure
they can manage to optimize it.

Paweł

On Wed, May 27, 2015, at 23:13, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,
 
we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects.
 
 Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language
 tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to
 the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The
 less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to
 have their language respected and recorded.
 
 The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are
 several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room
 for enhancement.
 
 Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated
 language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added,
 for example, name:ru tags even to small villages:
 
  http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map
 
 (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group
 and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will
 remain.)
 
 It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be
 there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or
 transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but
 at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder:
 
 If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to
 Wikidata for names in other languages?
 
 We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural
 heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM
 really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to
 record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation
 with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to
 join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata?
 
 We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used
 name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were
 actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want
 (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of
 English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a
 place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for
 OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata.
 
 Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of
 us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable?
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 -- 
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

On 27 May 2015 at 22:57, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote:

 A possible problem is that currently, Wikidata notability policy[1] means
 that Wikidata will only contain items for notable
 objects/entities/concepts. (But note that Wikidata is much, much more
 inclusive than Wikipedia—Wikidata will contain vastly more items than
 Wikipedia has articles.) This means that not all buildings, streets, and
 other objects that we have in OSM will have corresponding Wikidata items.

Wikidata (and for that matter the English Wikipedia) notability
policies allow for an item for every settlement; even a hamlet of just
a few houses.

The issues on naming described at the top of this thread are unlikely
to apply to small objects, such as individual dwellings and minor
roads.

That said, Wikidata also allows for an entry for every designated
historic monument (listed building), and already has an entry for
every street in the Netherlands.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-it] problemi su mappatura

2015-05-28 Thread Daniele Forsi

Il 28 maggio 2015 00:37, Max1234Ita ha scritto:

 Potrebbe essere utile, forse, chiedere agli autori di JOSM di includerlo tra
 le sorgenti disponibili

a quando risalgono gli strati che vorresti far includere?

per la CTR vedo che quello più recente sembra del 2010, secondo me non
vale la pena perché se ricalchi quello ottieni solo una copia di dati
vecchi, per i sentieri nel bosco magari non è cambiato niente di
importante e può essere utile come nel tuo caso se non si vedono dalle
foto aeree, ma lo terrei come caso residuale, in generale Bing
dovrebbe essere più aggiornato (dove si vede e non c'è scostamento
importante)

per il caso specifico dei sentieri mi sembra molto molto meglio
affidarsi a un sopralluogo (tag: source=survey) così si sa che sono
ancora percorribili e si può indicare il livello di difficoltà o se
sono segnati e numerati
-- 
Daniele Forsi

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-27 23:13 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:

 The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are
 several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room
 for enhancement.



wasn't our credo that what the mappers are interested in will be accepted?
There may be several thousand languages in the world but it is not a given
that all those will end up in the OSM db sooner or later.



 Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated
 language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added,
 for example, name:ru tags even to small villages:


 It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be
 there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or
 transliterations.




actually most real names are such, name translations or transliterations.
To give a famous example that most people will know:
The Colosseo or Anfiteatro di Flavio (someone decided for whatever
reason that this was an old_name while formerly it was an alt_name)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1834818
is called in English: Colosseum and in German Kolosseum
or alternatively: en: Flavian Amphitheatre de: Flavisches Amphitheater
Those are clearly translations and transliterations (K instead of C) but
they are at the same time very established names in these languages.

This is equally true for other famous monuments like the fori imperiali
(de:Kaiserforen), mercati traiani (de:Trajansmärkte), Bocca della
Verità (de: Mund der Wahrheit), Fontana di Trevi (de:Trevibrunnen), but
there are also exceptions, e.g. the en:Spanish Steps / de:Spanische
Treppe are called Scalinata di Trinità dei Monti in the local language
(it is located at piazza di Spagna, that's where the foreign name comes
from, while in Italian it is called after to church it leads to).
Naturally, OSM has the original name of this world famous monument, but
Wikidata hasn't. Wait, it hasn't the original name of this
three-star-tourist-attraction, how's that? Have a look here:
http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q848072 the reason is that the Italian
wikipedia hasn't got an article about the steps, they are featured in the
article about Piazza di Spagna:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_di_Spagna
If we were to massively use wikidata _instead of duplicating some details
from there also in our db_ we would have to improve wikidata as well, and
impose our entity structure on them, or it won't work in some cases (and if
it doesn't work in some case, it doesn't work at all).


Another issue I see with wikidata is that it contains information and
details about spatial objects, but it doesn't contain the geometry it
refers to.
Have a look at the Berlin object: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q64
This covers both, an administrative entity and a geographic place in one
object (no problem here, but can be a problem elsewhere).
This object has a property instance of metropolis
http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q200250

I don't want to discuss whether Berlin is a metropolis or not, what I want
to point out is that there seem to be different criteria defined for
different languages:

English http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q200250?setlang=en
metropolis
very large and significant city or urban area

-- generic, has significance as absolute criterion, not related to a
region or country, no details in which fields significance is required


German http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q200250?setlang=de
Metropole
Großstadt, die den politischen, sozialen und wirtschaftlichen Mittelpunkt
eines Landes bildet

-- has to be the political, social and economic centre of a _country_
(relative definition)


Italian http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q200250?setlang=it
metropoli
città di grandi dimensioni la cui area metropolitana raggiunge o supera i
cinque milioni di abitanti

-- big city whose metropolitan area is = 5 million inhabitants


French http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q200250?setlang=fr
Métropole
No description defined








The Italian definition speaks about a metropolitan area, but there is no
reference (neither in OSM nor in wikidata) about the extension of this
area. The same problem is generally there with population: we cannot see
in wikidata to which area the population refers to (and OK, we cannot be
100% sure in OSM that the population really refers to the area that is
drawn ;-) ).

metropolis is a subclass of big city:
http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1549591
which defines all cities with more than 100.000 inhabitants as big city (a
German definition, which I believe will not hold true for China or other
very populated regions). Indeed in OSM we do not have this hard limit (any
more): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dcity but rather use
the more clever definition: The largest urban settlement or settlements
within the territory.


My conclusion: I'd rather prefer to keep names in different languages
inside OSM, because it makes it clear to which object they refer, while it
is less clear

[Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

2015-05-28 Thread David Stoitner


Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,


vor wenigen Tagen durften wir uns und unser Projektvorhaben in einem  
ersten Schreiben vorstellen. Nun ist es soweit! Der Fragebogen ist  
fertig.

Wir, die studentische Seminargruppe am Institut für Humangeographie der
Goethe-Universität Frankfurt a.M möchten mithilfe dieser empirischen  
Erhebung zum Thema ?Motivation der OpenStreetMap-Nutzer und  
Entscheidungsprozesse in der Community? mehr zu OpenStreetMap erfahren.


Noch einmal möchten wir Sie, die deutsche OSM-Community für eine  
Teilnahme an unserer Befragung begeistern. Mit Ihrer Teilnahme  
unterstützen Sie uns sehr und würden einen großen Beitrag zur  
wissenschaftlichen Arbeit unserer Seminargruppe leisten.


Die Befragung beinhaltet 33 Fragen und kann unter folgenden Link des  
Geomedienlabors der Universität Frankfurt a.M. aufgerufen werden:


http://umfrage.geomedienlabor.de/limesurvey/index.php/451167/lang-de

Alle Angaben sind selbstverständlich anonym und können weder von uns  
noch von Dritten zurückverfolgt werde.


Nach der Bearbeitung der Ergebnisse werden wir die Daten und  
Interpretationen auf die Internetseite des Geomedienlabors mit einer  
CC3-Lizenz hochladen. Dazu werden Sie im ungefähr im Herbst wieder per  
Mailingliste benachrichtigt.


Wir hoffen, Ihr Interesse an unserer Befragung geweckt zu haben und  
Sie in den als Teilnehmer begrüßen zu dürfen. Für die Durchführung  
unserer Befragung möchten wir uns bereits an dieser Stelle bei Ihnen  
bedanken.


Bei Fragen erreichen Sie uns unter der Email-Adresse  
osm2...@stud.uni-frankfurt.de



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

David Stoitner
Christina Gaiser
Annegret Karches
Susanne Niebling
Paul Martin
Max Frick
Julian Neugebauer
Valentin Hübner


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[OSM-talk] Reporting routing problems

I have encountered some routing errors using our main website, but while 
trying to report it, I've found nowhere I could do it on the website and 
Tom said there's only one way to report it - directly at respective 
routing providers.


I will manage that, but I think we should have better integration with 
them, because average user would be confused. I mean something like: 
Wrong route? report it! button/link sending the message to the current 
provider and maybe note on the map (in case this is a tagging problem).


--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 11:58 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:

 I think that OSM is a database of local knowledge and culture, not of
 remote knowledge and culture added from afar. Therefore I find it out of
 place for OSM to see that objects like the London node receive a
 constant flow of edits from people whose only link to London is that
 they happen to speak a language in which London has a different name.



how did you verify this?




 I feel that there are two totally different planes of editing - one is
 what's on the ground in London, mapped by people in London, and the
 other is what name the Martian civilization has chosen to give to
 London, something in which Londoners have no say whatsoever.



You are trying to disqualify foreign languages in London by saying they
were Martian, which they surely aren't, I'll bet on this if you like ;-)
Are you aware that in London there are more than 250 languages spoken?
People living there, not just visitors. Here's a link:
http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/regions/languages.htm
London is special in this context, as it is a truely global city like there
are very few (NYC, Tokyo, Hongkong, maybe a few others like Paris, Dubai,
Moskow (?), ...)





 The name:xx tags are, if you will, the only tags for which the local
 mappers are not, and cannot be, the ultimate authority. And that's what
 makes name:xx stick out like a sore thumb for me; in my mind, OSM is
 first and foremost a project that lets the people control their map,
 instead of being told and labelled from afar.



please acknowledge that there are minorities in every bigger place that do
actively speak those languages. They ARE local (often).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-de] Zusendung der studentischen Befragung zu OSM

Da in einer der letzten Fragen nach den ersten drei Stellen der PLZ  
gefragt wird, vermutlich 1.


Und letztendlich vermisse ich im deutschen Form [1] immer noch eine  
entsprechende Ankündigung ;-)


[1]: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=14


Zitat von Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:


wer ist denn die deutsche Community?

1. Mapper die in Deutschland wohnen?
2. Mapper die in Deutschland mappen?
3. Leser von Talk-de / dem deutschen Forum?
4. Mapper die deutsch sprechen?


Gruß,
Martin




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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?


On 28/05/2015 11:20, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

El Jueves 28. mayo 2015 10.59.21 Steve Doerr escribió:

There might be a case for adding pronunciations (of 'difficult' names at
least) to the OSM database. Someone must have proposed a tagging scheme
for this, surely?

Yup. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics




name:pronunciation, as mentioned on that page, is in use in a few 
problems, and would surely solve the Slough problem:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10021975/history

(though John Betjeman's idea might have been better)

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMdata / OSMbase instance

2015-05-28 Thread Cristian Consonni

Hi,

2015-05-28 12:42 GMT+02:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com:
I'm following discussions on several mailing lists and an idea is starting
to form to help solve some of our growing pains.

I think it would be interesting to contemplate setting up our own instance
of WikiData.

Wikidata could then link to entries in it and vice versa for the items which
are 1:1 matches.

We could have dedicated entities for streets, for addresses, for PT stops
and their surroundings, for PT lines.

From there we could link to objects in OSM. The problem with that is that
when ways become split the editor needs to decide whether the OSMdata link
is still valid. Same deal for merges.

Of course, at the moment we use relations for some of these and we could
create new types of relations for others, but they are deemed too
complicated and they are rather fragile. Also the tendency seems to be to
abolish stuff like associatedStreet and simply go the way of repeating data
over and over. Or to say: do spatial queries and hope for the best.

So, on the one hand I see it as a bridge to Wikidata, on the other I see it
as a way to solve some growing pains we're having to maintain more and more
data we're amassing.

I agree. this was my proposal from September last year:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2014-September/070871.html

Of course the editing/syncing part is difficult but maybe it can
initially tried just as viewing tool.

Another relevant link:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/OSMdata:_a_Wikidata-like_editor_for_OpenStreetMap

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Re: [OSM-talk] Neat use of OpenStreetMap

2015-05-28 Thread Michał Brzozowski

This could be big. Remember that Mozilla Location Services does not
provide Wi-Fi data download due to privacy concerns (Which is BS in
my opinion). But with data downloads available, one can develop
off-line location services that could very well complement one of our
selling points, that is full off-line operation. I wonder whether
it's very hard to hack into location services of Android to seed GPS
location with this data for faster fix (assuming root is available).

Michał

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 OpenBMap

 It's similar to Google's location services or Mozilla's location service,
 but free.  You can make use of it as a location provider in Android using
 the OpenBMap plugin for microG unified NLP.  And you can contribute data as
 well using the Radiobeacon app.  Seems to be in it's very early stages right
 now, but could be a real powerhouse with a little extra effort.

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Re: [Talk-cz] LPIS: Tráva na orné, Úhor, Jiná trvalá kultura

2015-05-28 Thread Martin Švec - OSM


Dne 28.5.2015 07:46, Marián Kyral napsal(a):


-- Původní zpráva --
Od: Pavel Machek pa...@ucw.cz
Komu: OpenStreetMap Czech Republic talk-cz@openstreetmap.org
Datum: 27. 5. 2015 23:34:09
Předmět: Re: [Talk-cz] LPIS: Tráva na orné, Úhor, Jiná trvalá kultura


On Wed 2015-05-27 21:56:35, Marián Kyral wrote:
 Ahoj,
 v LPIS se objevily nějaké novinky a chtěl jsem se poradit, jak to
 nejlépe namapovat. A pokud máte i další, nenamapované kultury,
tak je
 přidejte. Martin mi poslal nějaké patche a koncem týdne bych
chtěl vydat
 aktualizovanou verzi Traceru.

 Takže prozatím známé novinky:

 *tráva na orné [1]*
 - tohle si představuji jako třeba jetel na poli - pořád to je
pole, jen
 se pěstuje tráva
 - navrhuji /landuse=farmland, crop=grass/

No nevim; nebylo by lepsi landuse=meadow, note=meadow on
farmland? Jak
v terenu poznam jestli je to louka nebo trava na orne pude?


Těžko říct. Asi stejný případ je, když zemědělec zorá louku a na rok 
dva tam něco zasadí.




Koukám do zdrojáků, trávu na orné už teď tagujeme jako 
landuse=farmland, crop=grass. Ono v dlouhodobým horizontu tam 
pravděpodobně častěji bude pole než louka :-)




 *úhor [2]* -
 - Dočasně neobdělávané pole
 - mapování /landuse=farmland/, ale ještě by to asi chtělo něco k
tomu.*

crop=none? crop=not_now?


/crop=no/ vypadá docela slibně.



Souhlasím s landuse=farmland, crop=no.

Zůstává nám jiná trvalá kultura, ale těch jsem viděl tak málo, že 
jsem nevypozoroval co přesně to má být.


Martin



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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?


W dniu 28.05.2015 12:41, Mateusz Konieczny napisał(a):


Further complicating such edits by moving it to Wikidata or somewhere
else is in my opinion a bad idea.


We would rather retrieve it from Wikidata, because many places are 
already there! Nova Scotia? - you're welcome:


https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1952

With a editor completion you could have much more not going anywhere 
outside:

- international name variations (including polish)
- direct link to a rich objects database (with a broad context relations 
- even outside the scope of a GIS if you need it)


Speaking of relations - there's even the link to OSM object already:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/390558

So what's the problem?


It is also a bad idea to add thousands of names without a really good
source and verification. Especially automated adding name:xx based on
transliteration alone is a terrible idea that should be reverted once
spotted - sometimes there is a separate name in foreign language, with
difference going beyond transliteration.


The data in Wikimedia projects should be verifiable, so this would be 
just a double check. We can do it, sure, but why not to start with 
something rather than from zero?



What may be done is to improve editor interface to do not display 100+
name:xx tags for places like London.


It would be nice improvement indeed - Wikimedia services already hides 
most of interwiki links - but it has nothing to do with Wikidata as a 
helper for OSM objects names and categorization.


--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Talk-it] OSMIT 2015

2015-05-28 Thread Cristian Consonni

Ciao,

Il 8 maggio 2015 08:51, Michele Mondelli mithenks...@gmail.com ha scritto:
 Buongiorno Cristian!
 Sicuramente il patrocinio di Wikimedia Italia è una cosa molto bella ed
 importante!
 Io sto aspettando l'approvazione ufficiale di tutto il progetto da parte
 dell'Università. Tra l'altro, oltre a OSMIT 2015 ci saranno altre iniziative
 legate agli OpenData, OpenSource, etc.

Ci sono novità? Io sono sempre disponibile per un Hangout, se
servisse, anche altre persone su questa lista hanno dato disponibiità
per fare mente locale insieme.

Ciao,

C

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Autocariste, dépôt de bus, de train

2015-05-28 Thread Christian Rogel

Le 27 mai 2015 à 17:28, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft jb.holcr...@gmail.com a écrit :
 
 Le débat du nom reviens souvent, mais la règle que j'ai compris est 
 systématiquement la même : il faut éviter au maximum les noms qui n'en sont 
 pas et privilégier les tags, parfois le nom n'est pas du tout original 
 cimetière de ville.  

Justement, quelle est la règle et qui l'a inventée, qui l'a (éventuellement) 
votée,  qui la soutient et quelle est la formulation officielle ?
Je ne l'ai jamais vu mentionnée sur la liste en anglais.
Vu l'imprécision lamentable du vocabulaire (description qui serait générée par 
un processus de dénomination !?), cela me paraît, jusqu'à plus ample informé, 
une éruption de geekisme qui voudrait appliquer à la vie  réelle des méthodes 
de codage qui traquent les redondances.
Je ne vois pourquoi on effacerait  cimetière municipal, alors que la règle 
d'or est de se caler, si possible, sur ce qui  est inscrit sur la porte.
Il y a des valeurs qui précisent les autres catégories de cimetière, mais on 
pourrait trouver des exceptions et on aurait un objet non identifié.
Pour moi, la règle de base est que si OSM n'est pas qu'une carte, cela ne veut 
pas dire que, dans les déclinaisons basiques, on doive faire appel pour 
certains objets à une extraction et pas pour d'autres.
D'ailleurs, les objets ont des noms et des niveaux de sens variables. Leurs 
noms sont soumis à l'évolution historique et à la mode. Bonjour, les mises à 
jour !

Il y a un Hôtel de Ville (un bâtiment) qui est le siège d'une collectivité 
nommée  Ville de Paris qui se fait connaître auprès des habitants sous le  
nom de Mairie de Paris, ce qui n'est pas, ici, un nom de lieu.
Le plus  simple n'est pas pas de reproduire, sans se faire des noeuds au 
cerveau, ce qu'il y a d'écrit sur la façade et qui sera, peut-être, demain, 
Maison du Grand Paris.


Christian R.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

2015-05-28 Thread Jochen Topf

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:13:11PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects.
 [...]

Generally I don't think having names in different languages on OSM objects is
wrong. We have done it that way for a long time and, lets face it, as long as
we allow it for some objects and languages, people will add names to other
objects and in other languages, too. Moving responsibility to a different
database is nice in theory, but not in practice. The common mapper will not
understand why *his* language should not appear, but only some other and he
will not understand how to edit a different database (especially not wikidata
with its horrible interface) unless we build something for him to make it easy
and seamless.

 Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated
 language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added,
 for example, name:ru tags even to small villages:
 
  http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map
 
 (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group
 and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.)

Thats a different matter. While there are many names for London in different
languages, I don't think there are special Russian names for half a million
places on Earth. Chances are they are the result of automatic transliteration.
And results of automatic processes should not be mapped for obvious reasons.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

Hi,

On 05/28/2015 10:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are
 several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room
 for enhancement.
 
 wasn't our credo that what the mappers are interested in will be
 accepted? 

No, that would be stretching the definition of credo. I think there's
a high level of agreement for stuff that's on the ground and not of a
too temporary nature has a place in OSM. Stuff that's not on the ground
- e.g. the name given to a place by a culture thousands of miles away -
can occasionally be allowed but there are limits.

 actually most real names are such, name translations or
 transliterations. To give a famous example that most people will know:

Yup, a speaker of English will come home from a Rome visit and say I
was at the Colosseum. - They will not, to repeat my favourite example,
come home from a visit to Paris and say I was at the New Bridge.

But let's not get sidetracked, that's a different discussion from the
Wikidata question. I just hope that Wikidata doesn't list New Brige as
the English name of Pont Neuf or else they have a problem ;)

 If we were to massively use wikidata _instead of duplicating some
 details from there also in our db_ we would have to improve wikidata as
 well,

It is my impression that a large proportion of name:xx tags in OSM are
added by naming specialists who do little else than large scale name
additions; it would probably not be too much to ask for them to indulge
Wikidata instead of OSM.

 and impose our entity structure on them, or it won't work in some
 cases (and if it doesn't work in some case, it doesn't work at all).

I don't agree. If we could offload 99.99% of all name:xx tags to
Wikidata and keep them only in edge cases like your Scalinata di Trinità
dei Monti, why not? Why would a few cases in which name:xx tags remain
ruin the whole scheme?

 I don't want to discuss whether Berlin is a metropolis or not, what I
 want to point out is that there seem to be different criteria defined
 for different languages:

You're listing some interesting shortcomings of Wikidata that I weren't
aware of. However these would not, in my opinion, bar us from using
Wikidata as a name repository for rendering; if a mapper is of the
opinion that no matching Wikidata object exists for an OSM feature, then
they shouldn't use a wikidata tag, that much is clear!

 I agree that tag lists of hundreds of names in different languages
 aren't very handy to look through,

They're also very hard to verify; and verifiability is important for
OSM. I've seen small villages in England which had a name and a name:ru
tag, and the only occurrence of the name:ru tag on a web search was on
a dubious Russian weather and events in random city page. When is a
name a name?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [Talk-it] OSMIT 2015

2015-05-28 Thread Michele Mondelli

Buongiorno,

sono in contatto con l'Università per capire quali date ci propongono e il
tipo di spazi.
La settimana prossima vado a parlare con il Comune, per presentare
l'iniziativa e parlare di eventuale patrocinio.

Mi piacerebbe molto fare un hangout la settimana prossima, se volete
propongo un paio di giorni/orari e vediamo chi può partecipare.



ciao,

Il giorno 28 maggio 2015 11:33, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com
ha scritto:

 Ciao,

 Il 8 maggio 2015 08:51, Michele Mondelli mithenks...@gmail.com ha
 scritto:
  Buongiorno Cristian!
  Sicuramente il patrocinio di Wikimedia Italia è una cosa molto bella ed
  importante!
  Io sto aspettando l'approvazione ufficiale di tutto il progetto da parte
  dell'Università. Tra l'altro, oltre a OSMIT 2015 ci saranno altre
 iniziative
  legate agli OpenData, OpenSource, etc.

 Ci sono novità? Io sono sempre disponibile per un Hangout, se
 servisse, anche altre persone su questa lista hanno dato disponibiità
 per fare mente locale insieme.

 Ciao,

 C

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-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Autocariste, dépôt de bus, de train

2015-05-28 Thread Romain MEHUT

Bonjour,

Le 28 mai 2015 11:36, Christian Rogel christian.ro...@club-internet.fr a
écrit :

 Le 27 mai 2015 à 17:28, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft jb.holcr...@gmail.com a
 écrit :
 
  Le débat du nom reviens souvent, mais la règle que j'ai compris est
 systématiquement la même : il faut éviter au maximum les noms qui n'en sont
 pas et privilégier les tags, parfois le nom n'est pas du tout original
 cimetière de ville.

 Justement, quelle est la règle et qui l'a inventée, qui l'a
 (éventuellement) votée,  qui la soutient et quelle est la formulation
 officielle ?
 Je ne l'ai jamais vu mentionnée sur la liste en anglais.
 Vu l'imprécision lamentable du vocabulaire (description qui serait générée
 par un processus de dénomination !?), cela me paraît, jusqu'à plus ample
 informé, une éruption de geekisme qui voudrait appliquer à la vie  réelle
 des méthodes de codage qui traquent les redondances.
 Je ne vois pourquoi on effacerait  cimetière municipal, alors que la
 règle d'or est de se caler, si possible, sur ce qui  est inscrit sur la
 porte.


Je n'ai pas l'impression que Christian disait le contraire. A mon sens il
parlait des noms donnés pour décrire quelque chose sans rapport avec un
quelconque nom identifiable sur le terrain. Si cimetière municipal est
bien le nom inscrit, alors oui il a tout à fait sa place pour le tag name.

Romain
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?


W dniu 28.05.2015 10:50, Martin Koppenhoefer napisał(a):


My conclusion: I'd rather prefer to keep names in different languages
inside OSM, because it makes it clear to which object they refer,
while it is less clear from wikidata. Also because the structure of
osm and wikidata is not the same, it will lead to problems (either
we'll be/risk making links that are not precisely 1:1 or we'll have to
change the structure to meet (either in wikidata or in OSM)).
Placenames are geographic information that do belong into OSM IMHO.


I was sure that in every two (or more) projects there will be some 
differences and that's why I said about forking Wikidata - that way we 
would gain (wild guess) 95% of existing objects from the start and we 
would still be able to have local (delta or differential) version 
for remaining few percent.


It's tempting to have control over everything we use, but the NIH ( 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here ) syndrome is 
counterproductive in the longer run. And while OSM is big enough now, it 
will be much bigger in next years (still many parts of the world outside 
the West are poorly mapped!) and using already mature, rich, 
free-licensed and community-controlled resources would likely help us 
with that.


Every big project will have to deal with inconsistencies or ambiguities 
and there's no escape - not because we're careless, but the world is 
complicated. So better to prepare for real global mapping than to be 
afraid of the risks. It's too late! We're not just a London-centered 
street map anymore, so let's face the global class of problems.



I agree that tag lists of hundreds of names in different languages
aren't very handy to look through, but IMHO we should resolve this in
the GUI (display name translations in the editors closed so you have
to click on an arrow to unfold the list, or sth like this, and/or let
the user set a list of languages he want't to see the names in and
hide the rest under a single line like i18n names, 182 tags, etc.)


I prefer GUI for linking the name of the proper Wikidata entry with the 
possibility of:

- forking the object name into our diff database
- merging local and Wikidata data if/once they're ready to do it.

--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?