2009/9/30 Charles Oliver Nutter head...@headius.com
On Sep 24, 1:17 am, Robert Lally rob.la...@gmail.com wrote:
After all the discussions about Coin, Java 7, closures, participation,
and
the JCP I'm left with the following understanding.
1. There's no shortage of ideas.
2. There is a
On Oct 1, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Jess Holle wrote:
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
No. The out of process plugin was introduced in Java 6 update 10.
Understood, but prior to Java 6 Update 10 one could explicitly use
Java
Web Start to get out-of-process operation, which is what we're doing
in
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
On Oct 1, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Jess Holle wrote
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
No. The out of process plugin was introduced in Java 6 update 10.
Understood, but prior to Java 6 Update 10 one could explicitly use
Java
Web Start to get out-of-process operation,
Is this the same case with WebStart? Because int he past I've had to
resort to dynamically create the jnlp file with appropriate cookie
properties passed along.
/Casper
On 1 Okt., 06:08, Joshua Marinacci jos...@marinacci.org wrote:
I'm not sure if the applet uses the same http cache as the
You automatically get the same cookies as the browser in an applet --
but not in Java Web Start. You have to do JNLP file hacks, etc.
With basic authentication things are funkier. With Firefox on Windows,
applets simply share the browser credentials as best I can tell. With
Internet
Webstart apps are run entirely separate from the browser. It's no
different than double clicking an app on your desktop or exec()'ing a
binary. The webstart JNLP does come from your webserver, so it's
possible to stash info in there. The advantage of the draggable
applets is that you
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
Webstart apps are run entirely separate from the browser. It's no
different than double clicking an app on your desktop or exec()'ing a
binary. The webstart JNLP does come from your webserver, so it's
possible to stash info in there. The advantage of the
The fact that when you launch a Java Web Start application from the
browser there is no hand-off of the current cookie set, etc, is
problematic -- and has led to double authentication in various use
cases
for us.
I suppose restructuring as a draggable applet would avoid that?
Yes.
--
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
The fact that when you launch a Java Web Start application from the
browser there is no hand-off of the current cookie set, etc, is
problematic -- and has led to double authentication in various use
cases
for us.
I suppose restructuring as a draggable applet would
My understanding of the process if that in order for a JSR to be filed you
need a spec, and an initial working implementation/proof of concept (in
general), which is why things like JPA/JPA2 came out of hibernate,
joda-time's jsr etc.
Before coin can be proposed as a JSR, I would assume they'd
You can tell if draggable applets and 6u10 are available using the
javascript functions in the Java Deployment Toolkit (deploy.js and
dtfx.js).
If the user doesn't have the supported configuration they can still
run the applet, they just won't get the drag ability and will always
have to
I haven't touched this aspect in a month or two, but isn't there an option
to indicate whether or not to download the latest version, and also an
option to prompt the user to download the latest?
--Ryan
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Joshua Marinacci jos...@marinacci.orgwrote:
You can tell
Hmmm
Is there enough in the deployment toolkit so I can force out-of-browser
Java Web Start usage prior to Java 6 Update 10? [I need a separate JVM
process with a controllable heap size in any case.]
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
You can tell if draggable applets and 6u10 are available using
On Oct 1, 9:45 pm, Mark Derricutt m...@talios.com wrote:
My understanding of the process if that in order for a JSR to be filed you
need a spec, and an initial working implementation/proof of concept (in
general), which is why things like JPA/JPA2 came out of hibernate,
joda-time's jsr etc.
I believe so, yes.
On Oct 1, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Ryan Waterer wrote:
I haven't touched this aspect in a month or two, but isn't there an
option to indicate whether or not to download the latest version,
and also an option to prompt the user to download the latest?
--Ryan
On Thu, Oct 1,
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
No. The out of process plugin was introduced in Java 6 update 10.
Understood, but prior to Java 6 Update 10 one could explicitly use Java
Web Start to get out-of-process operation, which is what we're doing in
this case.
This is a bit clumsy for various reasons
I think Robert is talking about the remaining 99.9% who can't scratch
their own itch (i.e. unlike Andy Brian of Fan), who can't/won't
embrace Scala/Ruby/Python or who simply requires corporate backing for
political reasons.
Java gained such massive adoption not because it was a particularly
On Sep 30, 7:33 pm, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote:
in Java. It does feel a little bit like being stuck between a rock and
a hard place, especially since JavaFX seems to serve mostly to scratch
Sun's own itch but utterly uninteresting to most others. So I would
not be surprised if
On Sep 30, 2009, at 2:33 AM, Casper Bang wrote:
Java gained such massive adoption not because it was a particularly
great language, but because it became a standard - managers love
standards because it provides stability and security.
I completely disagree. Java gained widespread adoption
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
I completely disagree. Java gained widespread adoption because it was
an excellent language. True, it was not a particularly *innovative*
language, and in fact that was the point. The developers of Java took
all of the great ideas from the previous 20 years,
I didn't say Java was bad, but I realize it's easy to do your own
interpretation. So let me be a little more concrete, for a decade I
was missing the Enum until it finally made it in. I've always been
missing decimal literal and it probably will never make it in in spite
of being such a common
Casper Bang wrote:
...especially since JavaFX seems to serve mostly to scratch
Sun's own itch but utterly uninteresting to most others.
I am more of a manager than programmer these days (darn it!). I find
JavaFX very interesting. However, its still not quite good enough for a
serious
On Sep 30, 2009, at 3:36 PM, Alan Kent wrote:
The other thing I have not looked into deeply yet is authentication
support. E.g. Authentication infrastructures using Kerberos, NTML,
CAS,
SAML, SPNEGO or whatever else the customer dictates is required by
their
environment. My
The OP is right that Microsoft puts more resources into their
development infrastructure. I don't believe that they are better, but
we don't need to open that can of worms right now.
I also agree with the OP that this is because of money motivation.
Look at Microsoft's financial statement. Dev
Joshua Marinacci wrote:
...This means you can use any authentication scheme you want
using one of the many Java authentication libs out there...
...However, in
the case of authentication, this is a matter of the sockets/http
requests going from your applet to your server side app
I'm not sure if the applet uses the same http cache as the browser.
However, applets can talk to the page they are in with javascript.
This means you should be able to grab a copy of the cookie while you
are in the browser and save it for later use if the user restarts the
app from the
On Sep 28, 7:39 pm, Richard Vowles richard.vow...@gmail.com wrote:
This entire interview was a cop-out by Alex and Joe. Their argument
boiled down to look, Sun open sourced Java and now we don't have to
do anything.
In no way did Joe or I state or imply that Sun has open sourced
Java. Sun has
I think expecting the community to get off their asses and do
something is a perfectly valid thing to say. Sun's put a lot of blood,
sweat, and tears in Java, lots of people have bet the house on the
java framework, and sun's clearly been kind to the community in,
amongst other things, open
I was *shocked* by what you said in this interview, absolutely
*shocked*.
Yeah, you did. Particularly you, Joe seemed to leave more of it to you
this time, he said his piece and was blasted for it on his blog. Every
opportunity Dick gave you to redeem Sun in any way shape or form into
taking any
What I got out of the podcast was that each jdk has a some sort of
priorty/theme. For jdk 7, it’s modularity. Like any other business resources
are allocated based on achieving that priority. Modularity is the major change
for jdk 7. While some of the additional coins proposals and feature
Given the circular 'we at a dead-lock' type posts I see on the modularity EG
list (well, the observer list anyway) I get the feeling that it'll be a LONG
time since we see modularity in the JDK. And if we do happen to see it for
Java 7 - there's likely to be a lot of disgruntled/frustrated people
On Sep 30, 5:37 am, Serge Boulay serge.bou...@gmail.com wrote:
What I got out of the podcast was that each jdk has a some sort of
priorty/theme. For jdk 7, it’s modularity. Like any other business resources
are allocated based on achieving that priority. Modularity is the major
change
for
On Sep 29, 1:20 pm, Richard Vowles richard.vow...@gmail.com wrote:
I am not asking for anything else in JDK7. What I would like is an
attitude that doesn't say its too hard and instead says we want to
see X, Y and Z in the language, now open source community, go out
there and implement them
This entire interview was a cop-out by Alex and Joe. Their argument
boiled down to look, Sun open sourced Java and now we don't have to
do anything. Oracle just bought a turkey if this attitude is
pervasive at Sun.
On Sep 25, 12:17 am, Robert Lally rob.la...@gmail.com wrote:
After all the
Robert Lally wrote:
After all the discussions about Coin, Java 7, closures,
participation, and the JCP I'm left with the following understanding.
So, no-one is to blame, no one has acted unreasonably or in bad faith
or with malice. The people with the money don't have the motivation,
That's some good analysis and I think you hit the nail on that one. In
some sense I think Sun went too far, by not thinking of a sustainable
business model - people like Paul Graham pointed that out years ago.
The benefits of Java has always been readable source, it is not clear
to me exactly how
On Sep 24, 9:17 pm, Robert Lally rob.la...@gmail.com wrote:
Have we, by reducing the cost of the tools we love, also reduced the value
to be gained by improving them to zero? I'm not really sure, but I think it
is possible.
But tooling is where Java rocks. Netbeans, Eclipse, Maven, OSGi...
As long as there is a benefit, the work will get done. The tools make
developers more productive so the work has shifted there. Improving the
language is no longer trivial and thus the ROI is very low. The process is
so slow and who wants to wait? You can update the IDE and use your
improvement
I'll grant that C# is free, but M$ gets a lot of money for what they build.
Too bad Sun didn't get lots of money for all the stuff they built.
Yes, doing work on a feature is great for your CV. Most developers though I
would guess are super busy staying on top of the work they already have.
Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
Where this argument kind of falls down is the personal marketing
angle. Being responsible for some major java feature is a massive boon
on your CV. I'm also going to presume for a moment people are a bit
like me and money is not your only motivator; making your mark
Well, allright, you got me there. Still, if you think messing with the
language itself is _fun_ (guilty!), you go and do that as a hobby.
On Sep 24, 7:46 pm, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
Where this argument kind of falls down is the personal
Your comparison with C# didn't make any sense whatsoever to me.
How is C# free? Anyone in corporate IT that does development in
C# .NET purchases MSDN and/or Visual Studio. Plus, unless one uses
MSDN, most C# developers will be developing on a paid-for licensed
Windows OS.
Then there's SQL
J Incredible, some people still think that open sources no agree.
C# works for some projects, and Java for others, and python, ruby, c , for
others.
*1. There's no shortage of ideas.*
*2. There is a shortage of analysis and implementations
*
Realy you think that ? C# have best
RogerV wrote:
It's interesting to see the current stiff economic environment
continue to sift out the viability of open source political ideology.
There are open source ideologists, and amen, but the open source
movement is just another way of doing the market. The current economic
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