RE: that after 'Abdu'l-Bahá a little child shall lead them (Isaiah 11:6) (Priceless Pearl) and the Letter Sh
The reference is to Isaiah 11 verse 6 Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; AND A LITTLE CHILD SHALL LEAD THEM. And the Master's Tablet to Miss F. Drayton says: **inna dhaalika at.Tifl mawjuudun wa mawluud** Verily that Child is born and is now existing In the compilation of Tablets and accounts related to the Nine Holy Days [now available on the Reference Library] the late Ishraaq Khaavari points out to an Islamic prediction that the Young One Whose Name begins with the letter SH will sit on the throne of Guardianship http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/c/AT/at-455.html#pg455 line 5 of http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/c/AT/at-455.html#pg455 wa yajlisu 'ala s sareer H.arfulsh-Shin More light is thrown on this subject by the diary of Dr Yunis Khan, who spent three months in 'Akká with 'Abdu'l-Bahá during 1897, and returned in 1900 for a stay of many years. From his words we infer that, perhaps due to news having reached the West that a grandson had been born to the Master, a believer in America (Miss F. DRAYTON) had written to Him that in the Bible is mentioned that after 'Abdu'l-Bahá a little child shall lead them (Isaiah 11: 6) and does this mean a real, live child who exists? Dr Yunis Khan was not aware, in 1897, that this question had been put and that 'Abdu'l-Bahá had revealed the following Tablet in answer to it: *** O Maidservant of God! Verily, that child is born and is alive and from him will appear wondrous things that thou wilt hear of in the future. Thou shalt behold him endowed with the most perfect appearance, supreme capacity, absolute perfection, consummate power and unsurpassed might. His face will shine with a radiance that illumines all the horizons of the world; therefore forget this not as long as thou dost live inasmuch as ages and centuries will bear traces of him. Upon thee be greetings and praise 'Abdu'l-Bahá Abbas (Ruhiyyih Khanum, The Priceless Pearl, p. 1) Even when Shoghi Effendi was very small his future greatness was known to 'Abdu'l-Bahá. A Miss Drayton of New York City wrote Him at the turn of the century and asked about the successorship. She received an answer, published at the end of Volume II of His Tablets, and badly translated, but striking. It says, 'Verily that Infant is born ... and there will appear from his Cause a wonder...' The child would be endowed with perfection, 'Abdu'l-Bahá continued, and his face would shine so brightly it would illumine the horizons, and He told Miss Drayton to remember this, all through her life. Robert Gulick referred the Tablet to the American National Spiritual Assembly and they asked the Holy Land and verified that the infant referred to was Shoghi Effendi. (Marzieh Gail, Arches of the Years, p. 284) Although the Guardianship -to-be was a well-kept secret, it was, strangely enough, not a total one. A Tablet of 'Abdul-Baha's to Miss F. Drayton of New York City contains a strong clue; it states: '...Verily that Infant is born and exists and there will appear from His Cause a wonder which thou wilt hear in future ... there are signs for it in the passing centuries and ages.' When the National Bahá'í Assembly of the United States referred this Tablet to the Guardian, he verified that he was the infant mentioned here. These lines close the second volume of 'Abdu'l-Bahá's published English Tablets. (Marzieh Gail, Dawn Over Mount Hira, p. 215) O maid-servant of God! Verily that Infant is born and exists and there will appear from His Cause a wonder which thou wilt hear in future. Thou shalt see Him with the most perfect form, most great gift, most complete perfection, most great power and strongest might! His Face glisteneth a glistening whereby the horizons are illumined! Therefore, forget not this account as long as thou art living, for as much as there are signs for it in the passing centuries and ages. Upon ye be greeting and praise! ABDUL-BAHA ABBAS.. (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 483) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English
Susan: Dear Ron and Sandra, I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the time He left America. I suspect speaking English back to them may have been more of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to correct them. I agree, and should have been clearer in my reply. I feel it wasn't so much a lack of understanding as fluency. I've been in two environments when I understood Spanish and later Inupiaq (in the last century) ...enough so that words were chosen carefully around me ; ) Still was not able to converse in those languages. Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 05:02:22 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Susan: Dear Ron and Sandra, I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the time He left America. I suspect speaking English back to them may have been more of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to correct them. I agree, and should have been clearer in my reply. I feel it wasn't so much a lack of understanding as fluency. Hello, I didn't closely follow the omniscience discussion so I'm not sure if specific claims along these lines were made in the Bahai writings regarding Abdul-Baha but aren't both *knowing* how to understand a language and *knowing* how to speak a language two things which would be included in omniscience? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43013.html Gilberto writes: Gilberto: Do you have any insight as to why that might be appealing? Personally, I don't think the religion is so much about authority or that individual anyway. I like religions more based on principles, like Taoism and Buddhism, and I think it probably shows up in how I see the prophetic religions as well. That's probably why Perennialism appeals to me. The message is more important than the messenger. There are timeless principles which are more fundamental than a timeless sequence of persons. Gilberto:: I understand that. Bahais say there will be future prophets. Muslims say there won't be future prophets. Christians seem really open to the idea that there will be future prophets ** Dear Gilberto I always read your emails with great interest and affection I read again what you write with great interest. The necessity for Progressive Revelation and the absolute need for the Bab and Baha'u'llah to have come is that the Sacred Pledge of Islam re the Latter Day [Yawm il aakhir] must needs be fulfilled. 034.029 YUSUFALI: They say: When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the truth? PICKTHAL: And they say: When is this promise (to be fulfilled) if ye are truthful? SHAKIR: And they say: When will this promise be (fulfilled) if you are truthful? 034.030 YUSUFALI: Say: The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put back for an hour nor put forward. PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): Yours is the promise of a Day which ye cannot postpone nor hasten by an hour. SHAKIR: Say: You have the appointment of a day from which you cannot hold back any while, nor can you bring it on. 022.047 YUSUFALI: Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But God will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. PICKTHAL: And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and God faileth not His promise, BUT LO! A DAY WITH GOD IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS OF WHAT YE RECKON. SHAKIR: And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and God will by no means fail in His promise, AND SURELY A DAY WITH YOUR LORD IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS OF WHAT YOU NUMBER. A thousand lunar years after the year 260 after Hejra was 1260 AH [which is 1844 AD the year of the inception of the Bahai Faith] *** Give ear to His voice calling aloud over land and sea, announcing to all mankind the advent of this Revelation - a Revelation through the agency of which the Tongue of Grandeur is now proclaiming: `Lo, THE SACRED PLEDGE hath been fulfilled, for He, the Promised One, is come!' (Baha'u'llah)*** So in addition to the Teaching that God is One, the Light that shineth from His Divine Essence [Dhaat] is One, we have the sacred notion in the Babi/Bahai Revelations of the Sacred Pledge and the thousand year duration after the setting of the star of the Imamate. [( The Muhammadan Dispensation must have, therefore, lasted no less than one thousand years, which is precisely the period that has elapsed from the SETTING OF THE STAR OF THE IMAMATE [260AH] to the advent of the Dispensation proclaimed by the Bab. [1260 AH] (Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 102))] Further it is evident that many bad things happened in Islamic history after the Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad was not accorded dur recognition. For a review see the utterances of the Imam 'Ali in His Sermon the Shiqshiqiyyah and the all-important consequences of this episode see... http://majalla.org/books/balagha/003.htm accessed 1/1/2005 1) al-Hakam ibn Abi'l-`As who had been exiled from Medina by the Prophet was allowed back in the city not only against the Prophet's sunnah but also against the conduct of the first two Caliphs and he was paid three hundred thousand Dirhams from the public fund. (Ansab al-ashraf, vol.5, pp.27, 28, 125) 2) al-Walid ibn `Uqbah who has been named hypocrite in the Qur'an was paid one hundred thousand Dirhams from the Muslim's public fund. (al-`Iqd al-farid, vol.3, p.94) Etc etc. The great Promise of the Holy Qur'an is that on THAT DAY all will be gathered *** 003.009 YUSUFALI: Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind Together against a day about which there is no doubt; for God never fails in His promise. PICKTHAL: Our Lord! Lo! it is Thou Who gatherest mankind together to a Day of which there is no doubt. Lo! God faileth not to keep the tryst. SHAKIR: Our Lord! surely Thou art the Gatherer of men on a day about which there is no doubt; surely God will not fail (His) promise.*** That Day dearest Gilberto is now...The Day of the Covenant mentioned in Sura 3 verse 81 ** 003.081 YUSUFALI: Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying: I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help. God said: Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you? They said: We agree. He
COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html In the above missive http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html my dear Gilberto writes: In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the Perfect Man or the Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize new Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been abrogated or not. The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of the Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes. But there are clues/allusions/ intimations in the Holy Qur'an that this will be the case. Thus: 010.049 YUSUFALI: Say: I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as God willeth. TO EVERY PEOPLE IS A TERM APPOINTED: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation). PICKTHAL: Say: I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which God willeth. FOR EVERY NATION THERE IS AN APPOINTED TIME. When their time cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it). SHAKIR: Say: I do not control for myself any harm, or any benefit except what God pleases; every nation has a term; when their term comes, they shall not then remain behind for an hour, nor can they go before (their time). In relation to Shari'ah like everything else the Hand of God is unchained. 5:64 God's hand is tied up. God's hand is fettered The hand of God is tied up! Sura 5 condemns any attitude which would say the Hand of God would be tied up/fettered/ or chained What He ordains for us operates in His Own Domain 017.029 YUSUFALI: Make not thy hand tied to thy neck PICKTHAL: And let not thy hand be chained to thy neck SHAKIR: And do not make your hand to be shackled to your neck 055.029 YUSUFALI: Of Him seeks (its need) every creature in the heavens and on earth: EVERY DAY IN NEW SPLENDOUR DOTH HE (SHINE)! Also this great reference is really worth thinking about From the BOOK BURHAAN Burhaan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and passed away in 1107 A.H. [153 years before the Dawn of the 12th Imam as the Holy Personage of the Primal Point. The Imam Ja'far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning of the Holy Qur'an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave] Sura 18:109. Qul law kana albah.ru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan Sura 18:109 YUSUFALI: Say: If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid. PICKTHAL: Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help. SHAKIR: Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add. The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse: The Infallible Imam replied: Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i'u abadan] In other words ***GOD HERE INFORMS THEE THAT THE WORD OF GOD HAS NO END, NO TERMINATION, AND IT SHALL NEVER CEASE AT ALL.*** This servant suggests this is a most precious find in such a wonderful Book from such a Holy Imam. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English
Hi, Gilberto, At 08:42 AM 1/1/2005, you wrote: I didn't closely follow the omniscience discussion so I'm not sure if specific claims along these lines were made in the Bahai writings regarding Abdul-Baha but aren't both *knowing* how to understand a language and *knowing* how to speak a language two things which would be included in omniscience? Whether `Abdu'l-Baha was omniscient at will may be unknown. The pilgrim's note (hadith) cited earlier from Stanwood Cobb has no Baha'i scriptural status. However, `Abdu'l-Baha did, at least at times, appear to have superhuman knowledge. I am just speculating, but it seems possible that `Abdu'l-Baha could have had access to certain sorts of knowledge, perhaps under particular circumstances, without being omniscient (all-knowing). With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
[Yusuf Ali] 034.029 They say: When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the truth? 034.030 Say: The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put back for an hour nor put forward. Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi. Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow down. Dear Gilberto I read the above reply with affection and respect and warm regards for your reply. But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering what exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the significance of an Event [be it the significance of their won soul or life] or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'anic verses? I am wondering... In one of your letters you mentioned kindly about your Christian background. Was not the Event of Christ's Coming a Judgement in a sense for His people? Just as His Return in the Reality of Baha'u'llah a Judgement for all? You also wrote dear Gilberto that I'm not a Shia and even if I was I think it is highly unusual to say that the dispensation of Muhammad actually started a couple of centuries after Muhammad passed. If the Babi dispensation started when the Bab made his declaration, it makes a lot more sense to say that the dispensation of Muhammad at least started during his lifetime (when he was born, when the Quran first started coming down, at the start of the Hejra, or maybe when the verse about I have perfected for you your religion came down). It seems bizarre to say the dispensation of Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam. Peace Gilberto Dear Gilberto Lest there be a misunderstanding I did not say that the Dispensation of Muhammad [upon Him be all peace all salutation] started ! in 260 AH. I said or meant to say that the Alfa Sanah [the thousand year period mentioned in the Súrih 32: verse 5 and the Surah 22:47] started in the year 260 AH to take into account of all the elaboration exposition and elucidation that the Imams offered the Community despite some very horrendous persecutions and sufferings They underwent. All the denominations of Islam [the proverbial 72 firqah's] all of these branches agree on one hadith that the Prophet said I leave you with two weighty valuable Things [thaqalayn] **AlTirmidhí in his Sunan (v, 662, no. 3786) records the following tradition Jábir ibn `Abd Allah said: I saw the Messenger of God - upon whom be God's peace and benedictions - in the course of his H.ajj pilgrimage on the day of `Arafah. The Prophet (S) was seated on his camel, alQas.wá', and was delivering a sermon. I heard him say: 'O PEOPLE, I AM LEAVING AMONG YOU THAT WHICH IF YOU HOLD ON TO YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY: THE BOOK OF GOD AND MY KINDRED, MY HOUSEHOLD. One does not need to be a Shi'ih to accept the vital significance of this Hadith which is also recorded in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah ** Inasmuch as Muhammad hath confined His testimonies to His Book and to His Family, and whereas the latter hath passed away, there remaineth His Book only as His one testimony amongst the people. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 202)** In the following missive http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html my dear Gilberto writes: In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the Perfect Man or the Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize new Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been abrogated or not. The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of the Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes. But there are clues/allusions/ intimations in the Holy Qur'an that this will be the case. Thus: 010.049 YUSUFALI: Say: I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as God willeth. TO EVERY PEOPLE IS A TERM APPOINTED: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation). PICKTHAL: Say: I have no power to hurt or benefit myself, save that which God willeth. FOR EVERY NATION THERE IS AN APPOINTED TIME. When their time cometh, then they cannot put it off an hour, nor hasten (it). SHAKIR: Say: I do not control for myself any harm, or any benefit except what God pleases; every nation has a term; when their term comes, they shall not then remain behind for an hour, nor can they go before (their time). In relation to Shari'ah like everything else the
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43030.html My brother Gilberto writes: **Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi. Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow down.** http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43030.html My dear brother Gilberto writes: 1]Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi. 2]Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. 3]Plenty of people will miss the Beast,4] and the sun rising in the west, and the 5] Dajjal. Again with reverence, affection, and courtesy this servant would submit that 1] The Mahdi is a reference a beautiful reference to the Advent of the Bab. 2] The Second Coming of Jesus in [Sunni Parlance] again refers to the Advent of Bahaullah. 3] the Beast [the Daabbah of Islamic H.adith ] refers amongst other things to the Rampant rise of materialism and secularism 4] The Sun rising from Its West [i.e Its MAGHRIB the Place where It set aforetime] refers to the Coming of the Bab from the Family of the Prophet from the descendents of the Imam H.usayn where that same Sun of Prophethood and Imamate which set previously in the year 260 AH with the passing away of the Imam H.asan al-Askari. 5] and as for the Dajjaal [the Deceiver] the Prophet also said ulamaa us suu Dajaajilatul qawm the wicked divines are the dajjaals of My people. Each of the above assertions is validated by enquiry, pure hearted, open minded enquiry and time. This servant would only beg you to pursue these assertions by reading and starting by reading the Book of Certitude and the Jawaahirul Asraar [the Gem of Mysteries]. Thou canst indeed hear the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: The sun hath not risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven. Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjál[17] hath not appeared; Sufyání[18] hath not arisen; nor hath the Temple been witnessed in the sun. I heard, with Mine own ears one of their divines proclaim: Should all these signs come to pass and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án, we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse forever to acknowledge Him, and other statements such as these deniers make. And all this, when the Day of Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance hath [page 20] been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown, and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought to nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! Veiled as they remain within their own selves, the generality of the people have failed to perceive the sweet accents of holiness, inhale the fragrance of mercy, or seek guidance, as bidden by God, from those who are the custodians of the Scriptures. He proclaimeth, and his word, verily, is the truth: Ask ye, therefore, of them that have the custody of the Scriptures, if ye know it not.[19] Nay rather, they have turned aside from them and followed instead the Sámirí[20] of their own idle fancies http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/gems.html#fnB16 Then I have found Dr Chris Bucks book very helpful. http://bahai-library.com/books/symbol.secret/ SYMBOL AND SECRET: QUR'AN COMMENTARY IN BAHÁ'U'LLÁH'S KITÁB-I ÍQÁN By CHRISTOPHER BUCK __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:02 AM 1/1/2005, you wrote: But isn't that kind of continuity still very different from what Bahais are asserting. That's what I was trying to get across earlier. Yes, it is different. I mentioned it as an example of one of the tendencies I see in many of the religions (as I define that term) - with exclusivism (including both fundamentalism and sectarianism) on one side and pluralism (including both inclusivism and universalism) on the other. (I will suggest a third category under pluralism further on down.) The Baha'i approach to knowledge and authority is, to my understanding, inclusivism. However, perennialism would be a example of universalism. I would also place the view presented by the United Church of Christ on its Still Speaking under the pluralism category. When I asked the folks working with that site to clarify their position, here was their response: To affirm that 'God is still speaking' recognizes that for divine guidance for our lives today we are not dependent only on the words of the Bible, written centuries ago. God's present communication is available to those in any age who seek God's guidance. The quote from Gracie Allen, 'Never place a period where God has placed a comma,' emphasizes the unfinished and ongoing character of God's communication. UCC leaders often cite a similar quotation from John Robinson, a leader in the Congregational tradition in England at the time the first colonists were leaving for America: 'God has yet more truth to break forth from his word.' Muslims and Christians are still saying God will continue to be involved in the world. Through the Holy Spirit, through prophets through sufi shaykhs, through mujaddids, through qutbs (the title not the individual) etc. The view advocated by the United Church of Christ, which would probably agree with those of many members of so-called liberal religious organizations (Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, Friends General Conference, Unitarian Universalist Association, etc.), is a bit different than either inclusivism or universalism. I might add a third category under the pluralism construct: religious humanism. And I'm not sure I would say that the Bahai kind of continuity isn't appealing. It's more that I don't see any reason why it should be true. Yes, of course. I find Meher Baba to be appealing, but I don't accept the legitimacy of his claim to avatarhood. I guess I would describe it differently. The various religions are usually diverse enough within themselves to manifest the various responses that you are implying above. So in each religion some people will lean towards relativism, and historical perspectives, but you also have people who are sectarian, and fundamentalists. Even in the Bahai faith. Generally speaking, when I use the term religions, I am not speaking of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. I am referring to the different Islams, Christianities, Judaisms, and Baha'i faiths. (So, by Baha'i faiths I mean categories, sometimes groups, of Baha'is who follow different perspectives, some quite alien to one another.) I'm not sure why you would do that. At least folks like Guenon and Schuon, I don't think that they are saying that anything goes. (That's actually another side which appeals to me) No, they are not. Neither do Baha'is. However, for reasons I discussed (and elaborate below), I would still place traditionalism, like other varieties of perennialism, under universalism. They are broad-minded enough to realize that the Truth has been spoken in more than one way at more than one time, in more than one place, by more than one prophet. But at the same time it doesn't have to degrade into to borderless wishy-washy mush where there are no limits.Perhaps this is mainly true of the Traditionalists. However, an essentialistic (Platonic) understanding of truth still trumps authority. In the Baha'i Faith, to my understanding, the reverse is true. The repetition of eternal truths in each Dispensation is based on God's authority. I presume He could change the rules if He desired. I think adding to the canon is a little beside the point. Catholics don't add to the canon either but many accept the the messages from Fatima. It's not just personal revelation in the sense of telling someone where they lost their car keys or something. There are different Roman Catholicisms (perspectives). However, the official view of the Papacy is that these personal revelations are subject to the authority of the church. For instance: In this context, it now becomes possible to understand rightly the concept of 'private revelation', which refers to all the visions and revelations which have taken place since the completion of the New Testament. This is the category to which we must assign the message of Fatima. In this respect, let us listen once again to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 'Throughout the ages, there have been
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:46 AM 1/1/2005, you wrote: It seems bizzare to say the dispensation of Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam. It was the Lesser Occultation (al-ghaybat al-sughra), not the Dispensation of Muhammad, which is believed to have started after the death (disappearance to most Twelvers Shi'ih) of the Twelfth Imam. The Greater Occultation (al-ghaybat al-kubra) began after the death of the third of the four abvab (babs) - the intercessors between the Twelfth Imam and Muslims. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:06:41 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html In the above missive http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html my dear Gilberto writes: In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the Perfect Man or the Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize new Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been abrogated or not. Dear Khazeh, The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of the Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes. But assuming this is true, how do you distinguish between someone who is validly changing the law (if such a thing is possible) and someone who is illegitimately doing so? Gilberto: I understand that this is your opinion. All I'm trying to say with the above and related comments is that even within the constraints of orthodox traditional Islam, there are concepts which are inclusive enough to allow for certain Bahai claims in interesting ways (although most likely not all of them). According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be Perfect Men after the Muhammad. So if this is what Manifestation means then Muslims can look for past, present or future Manifestations among the awliya (saints) of the community of Muhammad. But there are clues/allusions/ intimations in the Holy Qur'an that this will be the case. Thus: 010.049 YUSUFALI: Say: I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as God willeth. TO EVERY PEOPLE IS A TERM APPOINTED: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation). Gilberto: But how does that suggest abrogating the laws? In relation to Shari'ah like everything else the Hand of God is unchained. 5:64 God's hand is tied up. God's hand is fettered The hand of God is tied up! Sura 5 condemns any attitude which would say the Hand of God would be tied up/fettered/ or chained Gilberto: I've heard this accusation alot from Bahais but I don't believe it is valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something. It is totally consistent to say that God *can* send new manifestations to abrogate all current laws and replace them with something new, but then at the same time say that he hasn't or that he won't. Also this great reference is really worth thinking about From the BOOK BURHAAN Burhaan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and passed away in 1107 A.H. [153 years before the Dawn of the 12th Imam as the Holy Personage of the Primal Point. The Imam Ja'far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning of the Holy Qur'an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave] Sura 18:109. Qul law kana albah.ru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan Sura 18:109 YUSUFALI: Say: If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid. The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse: The Infallible Imam replied: Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i'u abadan] In other words ***GOD HERE INFORMS THEE THAT THE WORD OF GOD HAS NO END, NO TERMINATION, AND IT SHALL NEVER CEASE AT ALL.*** This servant suggests this is a most precious find in such a wonderful Book from such a Holy Imam. Someone has pointed that passage out to me before. Here was my answer. Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i u abadan] In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** The other thing I wanted to add to this is that just as Bahais argue that seal of the prophets means something different from last prophet that the word of God has no end can also mean something different from prophets will keep coming over and over like the Bahais say. Some reasonable possibilities to consider would be: 1. the word of god could specifically refer to the Quran and so it could mean that the Quran's validity and last forever and never be abrogated by another. 2. At least for sunni theologians the Quran, since it is connected to God's attribute of speech, is actually eternal
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Oops. The Greater Occultation (al-ghaybat al-kubra) began after the death of the third of the four abvab (babs) - the intercessors between the Twelfth Imam and Muslims. The ***last***of the four abvab. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
I've heard this accusation alot from Bahais but I don't believe it is valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something. Dear Gilberto, The Jews never said God couldn't literally do something. They were basically saying the same thing the Muslims were saying, that He had committed Himself not to do so, and it was by virtue of their understanding of His promises that they had in effect 'tied His hands.' warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 2:04:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And in fact, it is amainstream theological claim the the physical universe doesn't haveany staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, Godis constantly recreating everything over and over again This is expressed many times by Baha`u'llah. But I fail to see where this is an argument against the coming of the Manifestations since they are the purpose for the continuity of Creation. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In the following Letter dear Gilberto you write: * Gilberto: But assuming this is true, how do you distinguish between someone who is validly changing the law (if such a thing is possible) and someone who is illegitimately doing so? Gilberto: I understand that this is your opinion. All I'm trying to say with the above and related comments is that even within the constraints of orthodox traditional Islam, there are concepts which are inclusive enough to allow for certain Bahai claims in interesting ways (although most likely not all of them). According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be Perfect Men after the Muhammad. So if this is what Manifestation means then Muslims can look for past, present or future Manifestations among the awliya (saints) of the community of Muhammad. * This servant [khazeh] would not know exactly how to reply. In one sense one should go beyond a discussion over Names. If you dear Gilberto wish to look at the Writings of Baha'u'llah as that emanating from a WALI then that is certainly a start. The important point is to commence as no day that passes can be repeated. In the Christian world someone like Hans Kung who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad as that of an Old Testament Prophet has at least started somewhere... We must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent. Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell... 005.054 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! ...SOON WILL GOD PRODUCE A PEOPLE WHOM HE WILL LOVE AS THEY WILL LOVE HIM... PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! ... God will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him... SHAKIR: O you who believe! ... then God will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him Thus in the beginning of the Qur'anic Revelation It says that the Revelation was to warn Mecca and Its Environs...Later we have people like your good self being affected by that Revelation and loving it... 042.007 YUSUFALI: Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: THAT THOU MAYEST WARN THE MOTHER OF CITIES AND ALL AROUND HER... PICKTHAL: And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayest warn THE MOTHER-TOWN AND THOSE AROUND IT... SHAKIR: And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it... 006.092 YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her... PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Villages and those around her. SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her... You also say below dear Gilberto: 3. The Quran could be endless in terms of its meanings. The other day I was reading a quote attributed to Imam Ali where he said that if he wanted to he could load up 70 camels with written commentary about al-Fatihah (the first chapter of the Quran which consists of only 7 verses). And there are numerous similar statements made about the meanings of passages of the Quran. If only 7 verses can have that much meaning contained in them, it does not make sense to think that it's interpretations have been exhausted and that the book is insufficient for modern times and that we should move on to some other text.*** Of course on further delving the reason [one important reason] the Imam 'Ali [PBUH] said that there was SO MUCH in the first Surah is that later He says it has all to do with the Letter Ba. ie the Letter B. Which Letter He goes on to say is Baha'u'llah. The Letter B is the first Letter of the First Sura. ***As that Moon of the heavens of knowledge and understanding and that Point at the centre of the wheel of Divine Guidance, the all-conquering Lion of God, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, unto him be greetings and praise, has asserted: ALL THAT IS IN THE TORAH AND THE EVANGELS AND THE PSALMS IS IN THE QUR'AN; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE QUR'AN IS IN THE FATIHA [THE FIRST SURA OF THE QUR'AN]; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE FATIHA IS IN THE BISMI'LLAH [THE OPENING PHRASE OF THE FATIHA]; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE BISMI'LLAH IS IN THE BA [THE FIRST LETTER OF BISMI'LLAH]*** Another stunning, and for Bahá'ís prophetic, occurrence of the word Bahá' in a mystical text, is its use in the work The Sun of Mystic Meaning (Shams al- ma'ání) of Muhyí al-Dín al- Búní (d. 1225 CE) where
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:45:50 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Yusuf Ali] 034.029 They say: When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the truth? 034.030 Say: The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put back for an hour nor put forward. Gilberto: Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi. Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow down. Dear Gilberto I read the above reply with affection and respect and warm regards for your reply. Thank You. Khazeh: But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering what exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the significance of an Event [be it the significance of their won soul or life] or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'anic verses? Gilberto: No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of the people who have read it through the centuries. Because most of the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a position to see the Bab or Bahaullah. Khazeh, I am wondering... In one of your letters you mentioned kindly about your Christian background. Was not the Event of Christ's Coming a Judgement in a sense for His people? Gilberto: No not all his people. (assuming a Bahai interpretation)1 Because not everyone will be alive to see it. Just as His Return in the Reality of Baha'u'llah a Judgement for all? Gilberto: Even from a Bahai perspective (so I gather, but correct me if I'm wrong) its only a judgement for the people who witnessed it. Khazeh: You also wrote dear Gilberto that I'm not a Shia and even if I was I think it is highly unusual to say that the dispensation of Muhammad actually started a couple of centuries after Muhammad passed. If the Babi dispensation started when the Bab made his declaration, it makes a lot more sense to say that the dispensation of Muhammad at least started during his lifetime (when he was born, when the Quran first started coming down, at the start of the Hejra, or maybe when the verse about I have perfected for you your religion came down). It seems bizarre to say the dispensation of Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam. Khazeh: Dear Gilberto Lest there be a misunderstanding I did not say that the Dispensation of Muhammad [upon Him be all peace all salutation] started ! in 260 AH. I said or meant to say that the Alfa Sanah [the thousand year period mentioned in the Súrih 32: verse 5 and the Surah 22:47] started in the year 260 AH. Dear Khazeh, so let's look at the passage with a little more context. [32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that there is a time when Allah no longer regulates the affair from heaven to the earth and it seems weird to think something like that might be the case. Khazeh: I leave you with two weighty valuable Things [thaqalayn] **AlTirmidhí in his Sunan (v, 662, no. 3786) records the following tradition Jábir ibn `Abd Allah said: I saw the Messenger of God - upon whom be God's peace and benedictions - in the course of his H.ajj pilgrimage on the day of `Arafah. The Prophet (S) was seated on his camel, alQas.wá', and was delivering a sermon. I heard him say: 'O PEOPLE, I AM LEAVING AMONG YOU THAT WHICH IF YOU HOLD ON TO YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY: THE BOOK OF GOD AND MY KINDRED, MY HOUSEHOLD. One does not need to be a Shi'ih to accept the vital significance of this Hadith which is also recorded in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah Gilberto: I agree. As a sunni I'm supposed to try to cultivate a love for Ahl al-Bayt. That doesn't mean that Shiis are right automatically. There is an interesting
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be Perfect Men after the Muhammad. Dear Gilberto, I think you misunderstood what I said. As I recall you raised the question of the Perfect Man and I indicated the Writings used that a little more broadly than Manifestation as Baha'u'llah applied it to the Siyyid Kazim Rashti and Shaykh Ahmad Ahsa'i was well. Baha'u'llah is more than a Perfect Man, and He is only 'not a prophet' in the sense that He is much *more* than that, not less. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Fair enough. Then I'll just say that personally it comes off is really insulting, especially when Bahais make not dissimilar claims about what kinds of people God will or won't send in the future. Peace Gilberto On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:50:04 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've heard this accusation alot from Bahais but I don't believe it is valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something. Dear Gilberto, The Jews never said God couldn't literally do something. They were basically saying the same thing the Muslims were saying, that He had committed Himself not to do so, and it was by virtue of their understanding of His promises that they had in effect 'tied His hands.' warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:11:57 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/1/2005 2:04:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And in fact, it is a mainstream theological claim the the physical universe doesn't have any staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, God is constantly recreating everything over and over again Scott: This is expressed many times by Baha`u'llah. But I fail to see where this is an argument against the coming of the Manifestations since they are the purpose for the continuity of Creation. Gilberto: The point isn't that it is an argument against more manifestations (or more precisely the non-finality of prophethood.). The point is that it is another way to understand the Quranic statements which suggest the word(s) of God never end. (i.e. God's creative word keeps being spoken, the world is constantly recreated). Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 3:39:31 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:The point isn't that it is an argument against more manifestations (ormore precisely the non-finality of prophethood.). The point is that itis another way to understand the Quranic statements which suggest theword(s) of God never end. (i.e. God's creative word keeps beingspoken, the world is constantly recreated). IT certainly is. I agree. Bahai's sometimes get set on a single interpretation when we are told over and over that there are many interpretations to scripture and all must be considered and amalgamated to begin to grasp their significance. Bahai's can sometimes be confusing to new comers to the faith. We can say "Yes", Muhammed was the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end, the Seal and say at the same time that Revelation is progressive and another Manifestation Apostle of God will still come down the pike in God's own time because "Seal" means authorizer, warranotr, guarantor, authenticater, and validater at the same time. The meaning of God's utterance is not to be grasped at the first, "I see" that a believer utters. There will be lots of "Oh, that too, I guesses" to follow. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Dear Gilberto After giving you my warmest I am just slowly going through your kind letters and the part I think (!) by the grace of God I mar respectfully answer. (As I was posting this I am in receipt of other letters from your productive pen which I have to think about later tonight after praying to the One God (Allah) Whose Rah.mat (Mercy) unites us all You wrote in http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43037.html ***4. In both the Quran, the Bible, and in the writings of other religions, God creates with the power of his words. God *says* Let there Be light or God *says* Be and it is. (Kun fa ya kun). So if God's words don't end one way to read that is to say that God doesn't stop acting in the world, doesn't stop creating. And in fact, it is a mainstream theological claim the physical universe doesn't have any staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, God is constantly recreating everything over and over again Peace Gilberto** Again on this specific point you make a valid statement. The only thing I would suggest that the greatest result of this ***Kun fa yakuun*** This Be and It is_ this B uniting with E _ is actually the creation of spiritual transformation in human reality, in the human soul. Otherwise on the physical level humans too create things reflecting the potency of the Divine Name the Fashioner...But spiritual transformation is the Work of the Holy Spirit of God through His Revelations. In this Day the Blessed Beauty... ***The vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakim, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is ONE THAT WE HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED TO ACCOMPLISH. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 200)* *** It is evident that nothing short of this mystic transformation could cause such spirit and behaviour, so utterly unlike their previous habits and manners, to be made manifest in the world of being. For their agitation was turned into peace, their doubt into certitude, their timidity into courage. Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of an eye, transmuteth the souls of men! (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 156-157)*** I am at one with you ...now I will look at your other points My colleagues my fellow students my mentors all of us are looking at your points with great love and warmth and mah.abbat and rah.m khazeh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Some descriptions I've seen of the concept of Perfect Man are rather exalted. So even if Bahais might use the term a little more liberally than the term Manifestation they seem to be rather similar. At least from what I remember what you had actually said was that the term manifestation was used a little bit more liberally in the early Bahai writings, and that it was actually applied to Perfect Men. In any case, the distinctions here seem to be getting really rareified and technical. So if you are going to seriously object to what I wrote below you should say what that extra-something you think is in the definition of manifestation which isn't in the definition of perfect man. Peace Gilberto On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:30:15 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be Perfect Men after the Muhammad. Dear Gilberto, I think you misunderstood what I said. As I recall you raised the question of the Perfect Man and I indicated the Writings used that a little more broadly than Manifestation as Baha'u'llah applied it to the Siyyid Kazim Rashti and Shaykh Ahmad Ahsa'i was well. Baha'u'llah is more than a Perfect Man, and He is only 'not a prophet' in the sense that He is much *more* than that, not less. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Dear Gilberto I really liked your letter below. Truly one can say reading this that the Spirit of God working through your knowledge of the Islamic Dispensation has warmed your soul [Nafs] your spirit [Ruh.] and your mind ['aql] http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html We are learning together so to speak... [I am sorry re the Hand of God being chained being misunderstood. The Hand of God is operating even as we speak through His guidance ...] Now as to your points below Khazeh: But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering what exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the significance of an Event [be it the significance of their won soul or li fe] or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'án nic verses? Gilberto: No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of the people who have read it through the centuries. [POINT NUMBER ONE] Because most of the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a position to see the Bab or Baháu'lláh. Re this point Number One it is not the physical seeing it is the seeing with love with acceptance with inner submission to the will of God. Pilate saw Jesus. In fact there is a passage in John where the soldiers bring Him and say **ECCE HOMO** Behold the Man And similarly in Mecca they said what manner of man is this who eats food 025.005 YUSUFALI: And they say: Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening. PICKTHAL: And they say: Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. SHAKIR: And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening. 025.006 YUSUFALI: Say: The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 025.007 YUSUFALI: And they say: What sort of a messenger is this, who eats food, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? ... 025.020 YUSUFALI: And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets: We have made some of you as a trial for others: will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things). Re your SECOND POINT [32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. [SECOND POINT]What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that there is a time when Allah no longer regulates the affair from heaven to the earth and it seems weird to think something like that might be the case. My reply re this second point. On the broader context of the Divine Providence of course I agree with you and greatly ADMIRE your loving reference to the same Verse and Text. But there is a subtler more nuanced reference here. The Affair in the verse is AMR in the Arabic 032.005 SHAKIR: He regulates the AFFAIR [al-AMR] from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. * 32:5. Yudabbiru AL-AMRA mina alssama-i ila al-ardi thumma yaAAruju ilayhi fee yawmin kana miqdaruhu alfa sanatin mimma taAAuddoona Because of a considerable amount of background in my humble possession re this AMR this AMR is read as the AMR of God. The Cause of God. The Faith of God. This AMR too in its Essence is One [sanctified above plurality] 054.050 YUSUFALI: And Our Command is but a single (Act),- like the twinkling of an eye. PICKTHAL: And Our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of an eye. SHAKIR: And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye. *These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: Our Cause is but One. Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all.
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:17:12 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Khazeh: In one sense one should go beyond a discussion over Names. If you dear Gilberto wish to look at the Writings of Baha'u'llah as that emanating from a WALI then that is certainly a start. Gilberto: But then from a certain perspective we should point out that Islam has plenty of awliya. In addition to the Quran and Sunnah and the writings of philosophers there are volumes and volumes from the various awliya and scholars of this ummah through the centuries. Abdul Qadir Jilani, Ghazzali, Rumi, the other founders of the various Sufi orders, etc. The important point is to commence as no day that passes can be repeated. In the Christian world someone like Hans Kung who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad as that of an Old Testament Prophet has at least started somewhere. That's actually really interesting. I've heard of Hand Kung but I am not really familiar with him. I guess he's a Catholic heretic of sorts? We must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent. Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell... But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives are being transformed. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
My dear Gilberto Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the green. I swear by God [Allah] this last point is not fair were you to have read and seen what I have seen. At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but that remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[ fairness] God forbid it reminds me of the dismissive remark that the Imam Husayn's Life would not have ended in Martyrdom on the fields of Karbila had He not sought what He sought... We have to be careful in all our remarks. I love your letters That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and truth [h.aqeeqat] Humble and lowly towards the footsteps of His awliya khazeh We must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent. Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell... But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives are being transformed. Peace Gilberto For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes * The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors, He Himself in His anguish has cried out, have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst thou present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the Ancient Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels. I swear by God! His heart, His soul, and His vitals are melted! Wert thou to hear with Mine ear, He also declares, thou wouldst hear how Ali [the Bab] bewaileth Me in the presence of the Glorious Companion, and how Muhammad weepeth over Me in the all-highest Horizon, and how the Spirit [Jesus] beateth Himself upon the head in the heaven of My decree, by reason of what hath befallen this Wronged One at the hands of every impious sinner. Before Me, He elsewhere has written, riseth up the Serpent of wrath with jaws stretched to engulf Me, and behind Me stalketh the lion of anger intent on tearing Me in pieces, and above Me, O My Well-Beloved, are the clouds of Thy decree, raining upon Me the showers of tribulations, whilst beneath Me are fixed the spears of misfortune, ready to wound My limbs and My body. Couldst thou be told, He further affirms, what hath befallen the Ancient Beauty, thou wouldst flee into the wilderness, and weep with a great weeping. In thy grief, thou wouldst smite thyself on the head, and cry out as one stung by the sting of the adder By the righteousness of God! Every morning I arose from My bed I discovered the hosts of countless afflictions massed behind My door, and every night when I lay down, lo! My heart was torn with agony at what it had suffered from the fiendish cruelty of its foes. With every piece of bread the Ancient Beauty breaketh is coupled the assault of a fresh affliction, and with every drop He drinketh is mixed the bitterness of the most woeful of trials. He is preceded in every step He taketh by an army of unforeseen calamities, while in His rear follow legions of agonizing sorrows. Was it not He Who, at the early age of twenty-seven, spontaneously arose to champion, in the capacity of a mere follower, the nascent Cause of the Bab? Was He not the One Who by assuming the actual leadership of a proscribed and harrassed sect exposed Himself, and His kindred, and His possessions, and His rank, and His reputation to the grave perils, the bloody assaults, the general spoliation and furious defamations of both government and people? Was it not He - the Bearer of a Revelation, Whose day every Prophet hath announced, for which the soul of every Divine Messenger hath thirsted, and in which God hath proved the hearts of the entire company of His Messengers and Prophets - was not the Bearer of such a Revelation, at the instigation of Shi'ih ecclesiastics and by order of the Shah himself forced, for no less than four months, to breathe, in utter darkness, whilst in the company of the vilest criminals and freighted down with galling chains, the pestilential air of the vermin-infested subterranean dungeon of Tihran - a place which, as He Himself subsequently declared, was mysteriously converted into the very scene of the annunciation made to Him by God of His Prophethood? * __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:42:55 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My dear Gilberto Dear Khazeh, Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the green. I swear by God [Allah] this last point is not fair were you to have read and seen what I have seen. I didn't mean to be unfair. I was just responsding to what you literally wrote. At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but that remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[ fairness] I love your letters Thank you. That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and truth [h.aqeeqat] Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid. I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it. Khazeh: Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell... Gilberto: But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives are being transformed. Peace Gilberto For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes * The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors, He Himself in His anguish has cried out, have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst thou present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the Ancient Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels. Gilberto: I'm not saying Bahaullah didn't suffer. What I'm saying that at least in physical terms, there are clearly also decent people in the world who have also suffered and been victims of oppression. That doesn't mean that everything they believe is true. That's all I'm saying. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My dear Gilberto Dear Khazeh, Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the green. I swear by God [God] this last point is not fair were you to have read and seen what I have seen. I didn't mean to be unfair. I was just responding to what you literally wrote. At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but that remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[ fairness] I love your letters Thank you. That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and truth [h.aqeeqat] Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid. I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it. Khazeh: Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell... Gilberto: But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives are being transformed. Peace Gilberto For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes * The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors, He Himself in His anguish has cried out, have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst thou present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the Ancient Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels. Gilberto: I'm not saying Baháu'lláh didn't suffer. What I'm saying that at least in physical terms, there are clearly also decent people in the world who have also suffered and been victims of oppression. That doesn't mean that everything they believe is true. That's all I'm saying. ***You are very welcome. And you are being way too exaggerated in your complements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel more comfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentions and are sincerely trying to be warm and friendly. Gilberto*** Yes I am sincerely trying to be warm and friendly AND COURTEOUS [with respect to mentioning Sacred Personages [the Maz.aahir al Ilaahiyyah] [the Loci of Divine Manifestation] Dear Brother Gilberto I am touched also by your candour and immediate reply. Thank you. There are so many references in the holy Qur'an to the Sufferings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Bahá'ís point this out to those who do not recognize His station Baha'u'llah refers to the Prophet's Constancy and Tribulations in great detail. The Prophet [God] reminds the People that Moses suffered too... 061.005 YUSUFALI: And remember, Moses said to his people: O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of God (sent) to you? Then when they went wrong, God let their hearts go wrong. For God guides not those who are rebellious transgressors. PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am God's messenger unto you? So when they went astray God sent their hearts astray. And God guideth not the evil-living folk. SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! why do you give me trouble? And you know indeed that I am God's messenger to you; but when they turned aside, God made their hearts turn aside, and God does not guide the transgressing people. ALSO 009.061 YUSUFALI: Among them are men who molest the Prophet and say, He is (all) ear. Say, He listens to what is best for you: he believes in God, has faith in the Believers, and is a Mercy to those of you who believe. But those who molest the Messenger will have a grievous penalty. PICKTHAL: And of them are those who vex the Prophet and say: He is only a hearer. Say: A hearer of good for you, who believeth in God and is true to the believers, and a mercy for such of you as believe. Those who vex the messenger of God, for them there is a painful doom. SHAKIR: And there are some of them who molest the Prophet and say: He is one who believes every thing that he hears; say: A hearer of good for you (who) believes in God and believes the faithful and a mercy for those of you who believe; and (as for) those who molest the Messenger of God, they shall have a painful punishment. Baha'u'llah writes: ** For this reason did Muhammad cry out: No Prophet of God hath suffered such harm as I have suffered. And in the Qur'an are recorded all the calumnies and reproaches uttered against Him, as well as all the afflictions which He suffered. Refer ye thereunto, that haply ye may be
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html Khazeh: The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of t he Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes. That's the claim you are making. And that's probably one of the essential points of difference between the Bahai faith and Islam. Peace Gilberto http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html Dear Gilberto It is midnight in my country [the place on earth which is my transitory and transient home] ...so I will say Good Night and God bless you [God yubaarik feeka] BUT re your point above There is no real difference if you think about carefully. The Text of the Holy Qur'an says that the ***SHARI'AH***s emanate from a DEEN The Shari'ahs the Qur'an asserts are the same as that which started with Noah onwards. Now clearly the Noachide Shari'ah was both the same and different from the Abrahamic Mosaic Christian Muhammadan Shari'ahs. But the DEEN was the same. The Bahá'ís claim still that the Deen is ONE I will put for your enjoyment the actual Arabic verse as it may help to unravel the mystery. You dear Gilberto seem to be deep in Traditionalism and some of your postings echo what I have read [and not understood of Guenon] ...so this point may not be difficult for your good mind... 42:13. SharaAAa lakum mina alddeeni ma wassa bihi noohan waallathee awhayna ilayka wama wassayna bihi ibraheema wamoosa waAAeesa an aqeemoo alddeena wala tatafarraqoo feehi kabura AAala almushrikeena ma tadAAoohum ilayhi Godu yajtabee ilayhi man yashao wayahdee ilayhi man yuneebu Notice the Divine Revealer says *** SharaAAa lakum** ie the Shari'ah s come unto you are proffered unto you MINA ALDDEENI *** ie from [Min] DEEN the DEEN ald-DEEN 042.013 YUSUFALI: The same religion [DEEN] has He established [SHAR'AA] for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). PICKTHAL: He hath ordained [SHAR'AA] for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. God chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him). SHAKIR: He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; God chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently. So we can see points of Unity here ***Therein lies the strength of the unity of the Faith, of the validity of a Revelation that claims not to destroy or belittle previous Revelations, but to connect, unify, and fulfill them. *** There exist several Islamic traditions in which Muhammad closely identifies himself with Jesus. One such tradition, presented early in The Book of Certitude, represents the Prophet as having exclaimed: I am Jesus.219 The I am Jesus tradition Bahá'u'lláh cites is attested primarily in Isma'ili circles. Lawson translates one such tradition as transmitted in the Kitáb al-Kashf, in a sermon of 'Ali known as the Khutbat al-Bayán: I am the Christ who heals the blind and the leprous, creating birds and dispersing clouds. Meaning [says the commentator]: I am the second Christ (al-masih al-thani)I am he and he is I. At this a man stood up and asked: O Commander of the Faithful, was the Torah written in a foreign language or in Arabic?'Ali said: [In a] foreign language, but its meaning is Arabic, namely that Christ is the Qaim bi'l-haqq, and the king of this world and of the next. The Qur'án itself confirms this in the verse: 'Peace be upon me the day that I am raised up alive.' (Qur'án 19:33.) Thus 'Isa ibn Maryam is of me and I of him, and he is the Most Great Word of God (kalimat alláh alkubr(i) and he is the witness and I am the one testified to.220 The question of the authenticity of such a saying is not the issue here, since, at any rate, the tradition represented a sentiment in Shí'í consciousness. For Bahá'u'lláh, this tradition provided a hermeneutical key to Jesus' Farewell Discourse and was instructive as to the real meaning of prophetic return. This type of discussion is not scholastic. It is apologetic, and opens up the possibility for a sort of reciprocity of attributes among the Prophets of God. In the course of Bahá'u'lláh's argument, he draws a series
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:37:51 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then I'll just say that personally it comes off is really insulting, Dear Gilberto, I'm sure the Jews find that statement in the Qur'an insulting as well. In fact, I know they do. That's fine. And if that's how a person felt I would try to be sensitive to their feelings and not shove those passages in their face as if I expected it to persuade them that they were wrong. That's how I feel in here. On a logical level, the way Bahais use the argument that Muslims are typing up God's hands simply isn't valid or convincing. [anecdote deleted] especially when Bahais make not dissimilar claims about what kinds of people God will or won't send in the future. I don't recall us saying anything about what 'kinds of people' God will send. Baha'u'llah did say something about when She could appear however. ;-} Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an example of typing up God's hands as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the last prophet. None of the claims are a priori illegitimate on the basis of tying up God's hands. They are either true or not true. The rest is pretty much rhetoric. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Dear Khazeh, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to get across. I realize that many prophets and messengers suffered, and were persecuted and underwent many difficulties. All I'm saying is that suffering in doesn't prove that one is a prophet or messenger. Peace Gilberto On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:30:23 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My dear Gilberto Dear Khazeh, Everything you wrote is received by my mind and heart with affection and love apart from your comment below re Baha'u'llah and not seeing the green. I swear by God [God] this last point is not fair were you to have read and seen what I have seen. I didn't mean to be unfair. I was just responding to what you literally wrote. At least I could say in all honesty that I have read the Writings of the Awliyaa and keep an eye on the suffering of my fellow human beings but that remark re Haz.rate Baha'u'llah is far from ins.aaf [equity] and 'adl.[ fairness] I love your letters Thank you. That is why this servant responds to this last point with candour and truth [h.aqeeqat] Thank you. I actually like it better when I feel you are being candid. I you don't like something, feel free to say you don't like it. Khazeh: Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell... Gilberto: But even today, there are good Muslims who are put in prison and made to go through worse suffering and worse humiliation than not seeing gardens for a couple of years. Even today there are people whose lives are being transformed. Peace Gilberto For your kind information were you to peruse it for some few minutes * The cruelties inflicted by My oppressors, He Himself in His anguish has cried out, have bowed Me down, and turned My hair white. Shouldst thou present thyself before My throne, thou wouldst fail to recognize the Ancient Beauty, for the freshness of His countenance is altered and its brightness hath faded, by reason of the oppression of the infidels. Gilberto: I'm not saying Baháu'lláh didn't suffer. What I'm saying that at least in physical terms, there are clearly also decent people in the world who have also suffered and been victims of oppression. That doesn't mean that everything they believe is true. That's all I'm saying. ***You are very welcome. And you are being way too exaggerated in your complements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel more comfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentions and are sincerely trying to be warm and friendly. Gilberto*** Yes I am sincerely trying to be warm and friendly AND COURTEOUS [with respect to mentioning Sacred Personages [the Maz.aahir al Ilaahiyyah] [the Loci of Divine Manifestation] Dear Brother Gilberto I am touched also by your candour and immediate reply. Thank you. There are so many references in the holy Qur'an to the Sufferings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Bahá'ís point this out to those who do not recognize His station Baha'u'llah refers to the Prophet's Constancy and Tribulations in great detail. The Prophet [God] reminds the People that Moses suffered too... 061.005 YUSUFALI: And remember, Moses said to his people: O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of God (sent) to you? Then when they went wrong, God let their hearts go wrong. For God guides not those who are rebellious transgressors. PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am God's messenger unto you? So when they went astray God sent their hearts astray. And God guideth not the evil-living folk. SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! why do you give me trouble? And you know indeed that I am God's messenger to you; but when they turned aside, God made their hearts turn aside, and God does not guide the transgressing people. ALSO 009.061 YUSUFALI: Among them are men who molest the Prophet and say, He is (all) ear. Say, He listens to what is best for you: he believes in God, has faith in the Believers, and is a Mercy to those of you who believe. But those who molest the Messenger will have a grievous penalty. PICKTHAL: And of them are those who vex the Prophet and say: He is only a hearer. Say: A hearer of good for you, who believeth in God and is true to the believers, and a mercy for such of you as believe. Those who vex the messenger of God, for them there is a painful doom. SHAKIR: And there are some of them who molest the Prophet and say: He is one who believes every thing that he hears; say: A hearer of good for you (who) believes in God and
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Hi, Gilberto, At 06:33 PM 1/1/2005, you wrote: Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an example of typing up God's hands as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the last prophet. The difference, from my Baha'i point of view, is between whether one believes in the continuity of Prophethood or whether one believes, for instance, that the Prophets ended with Malachi or Muhammad. Progressive Revelation occurs not only from one Prophet to the next but within Prophetic Dispensations, as well. So, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah will continue to unfold and become clarified until the next Prophet appears (and, perhaps, in a broader sense, for the next 1/2 million years). I prefer to take a much very broad view of divine Revelation than many others. As I see it, and I am only expressing my own perspective, folks like Meher Baba and Ramakrishna could be termed inspired seers. I can even accept Meher Baba's claim to be an avatar. However, here, I would take his use of avatar to be merely a nominal designation for what I would call a seer. Moreover, Meher Baba, Ramakrishna, Rev. Moon, Aleister Crowley, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, etc. would, in the context of their own narrative, paradigm, or taxonomy, be prophets, messiahs, and avatars. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an example of typing up God's hands as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the last prophet. Dear Gilberto, You can't compare an issue of successorship to that of a Manifestation. In the case of successorship legitimacy (nass) is everything, when it comes to a Manifestation it is recognition (irfan) that counts. Yes, we are warned that a Manifestation will not come in less than a thousand years, but I would still judge a claimant more on the basis of their character, their writings, etc. None of the claims are a priori illegitimate on the basis of tying up God's hands. They are either true or not true. You mean like the claim in Malachi that there would be no more prophets until Elijah returns? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:10:55 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 06:33 PM 1/1/2005, you wrote: Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an example of typing up God's hands as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the last prophet. The difference, from my Baha'i point of view, is between whether one believes in the continuity of Prophethood or whether one believes, for instance, that the Prophets ended with Malachi or Muhammad. I think you are looking at only one side of the question and are hung up on the word prophet (in order to make a seperate probably valid point). What I'm trying to get across is just that Bahais, in their own way, are also being restrictive. If tomorrow, somebody came and claimed to be the next Manifestation, obedient Bahais would oppose his or her claim becaues the thousand years isn't up yet. If that person pointed out that both the Quran and the Bible (and Bahai interpretations of those texts) all include statements along the lines of in the sight of God a thousand years is as a day and used that to argue that the thousand years is actually metaphorical. Obedient Bahais would presumably insist that the texts were clearly literal. In an abstract sense, Bahais are just as capable of being restrictive, of ruling out certain possiblities based on literal interpretations of their own scriptures. If that's not tying God's hands then what is? I prefer to take a much very broad view of divine Revelation than many others. As I see it, and I am only expressing my own perspective, folks like Meher Baba and Ramakrishna could be termed inspired seers. I can even accept Meher Baba's claim to be an avatar. However, here, I would take his use of avatar to be merely a nominal designation for what I would call a seer. Moreover, Meher Baba, Ramakrishna, Rev. Moon, Aleister Crowley, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, etc. would, in the context of their own narrative, paradigm, or taxonomy, be prophets, messiahs, and avatars. Gilberto: Is there ever a limit though? Suppose tomorrow morning someone knocks on your door and says Hi, I'm from the Church of the Flatulent Cabbage-Headed Gods from the Eight Dimension is there a point where it just becomes wrong and ridiculous or is it ultimately anything goes? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:00:48 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying that a second Guardian must necessarily satisfy certain literal criteria in terms of bloodline or saying that a Manifestation can come no sooner than 1000 literal years after Bahaullah said is just as much an example of typing up God's hands as saying that Muhammad (saaws) was the last prophet. Dear Gilberto, You can't compare an issue of successorship to that of a Manifestation. In the case of successorship legitimacy (nass) is everything, when it comes to a Manifestation it is recognition (irfan) that counts. That strikes me as kind of an arbitrary distinction, especially in a religious context. It's not like looking up who is next in the order or succession after vice-president or something. In a religious context the claim is that some charism, some supernatural quality is being transmitted. Otherwise how could you guarantee infallibility. And if it is something of divine origin which is being conferred, then why shouldn't it be recognizable by irfan? Yes, we are warned that a Manifestation will not come in less than a thousand years, but I would still judge a claimant more on the basis of their character, their writings, etc. None of the claims are a priori illegitimate on the basis of tying up God's hands. They are either true or not true. You mean like the claim in Malachi that there would be no more prophets until Elijah returns? I'm not sure what you mean. I just looked up Malachi. It says that Elijah would come before the great and terrible day of the Lord. But it doesn't say that no more prophets would come in the meantime. But even if you were right about that, sure. If the Bible had statements which clearly restricted the coming of future prophets, then just because someone believed those statements and applied them to Islam, I wouldn't automatically accuse the person of arrogance and pride and blasphemy. They would just be believing what their scriptures say. I mean, they would be wrong. I would disagree with them. I might argue with them. But I wouldn't automatically attack their character or motives just because of the way they interpreted the Bible. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Gilberto, At 08:07 PM 1/1/2005, you wrote: I think you are looking at only one side of the question and are hung up on the word prophet (in order to make a seperate probably valid point). What I'm trying to get across is just that Bahais, in their own way, are also being restrictive. If tomorrow, somebody came and claimed to be the next Manifestation, obedient Bahais would oppose his or her claim becaues the thousand years isn't up yet. That is because we believe in the continuity of Prophetic Revelation according to Baha'u'llah's authority and Covenant. Using the Baha'i, not the Pauline, definition of Prophethood, most Christians reject the possibility of any Prophets after Christ. Most Jews would make a similar determination regarding Prophets after Malachi; and most Muslims would do the same for any claimants after Muhammad. The Baha'i view of progressive Revelation is considerably different from the official positions of most branches of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. If that person pointed out that both the Quran and the Bible (and Bahai interpretations of those texts) all include statements along the lines of in the sight of God a thousand years is as a day and used that to argue that the thousand years is actually metaphorical. Obedient Bahais would presumably insist that the texts were clearly literal. Personally, I would always *consider* the *possibility* it was not literal. However, Baha'u'llah said that the thousand years *was* literal. It would be very difficult getting around both what He said on the subject and Shoghi Effendi's interpretation of it. Nonetheless, I am open to another Prophet coming in the future and revealing, possibly, a thoroughly different Revelational paradigm. I don't think that most Jewish, Christian, and Islamic denominations and sects would make the same assertion. In an abstract sense, Bahais are just as capable of being restrictive, of ruling out certain possiblities based on literal interpretations of their own scriptures. If that's not tying God's hands then what is? Baha'is do not reject the possibility of future Prophets, which is the point Baha'u'llah was making. Is there ever a limit though? Suppose tomorrow morning someone knocks on your door and says Hi, I'm from the Church of the Flatulent Cabbage-Headed Gods from the Eight Dimension is there a point where it just becomes wrong and ridiculous or is it ultimately anything goes? I may or may not accept that person as a seer, which is admittedly a subjective judgement. However, I would acknowledge that the leader, if there were one, of that Church had whatever status she or claimed in the context of her or his paradigm. That is my approach both as a sociologist of religion and as a human being. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 8:07:56 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If tomorrow, somebody came andclaimed to be the next Manifestation, obedient Bahais would oppose hisor her claim becaues the thousand years isn't up yet. If that personpointed out that both the Quran and the Bible (and Bahaiinterpretations of those texts) all include statements along the linesof "in the sight of God a thousand years is as a day" and used that toargue that the thousand years is actually metaphorical. ObedientBahais would presumably insist that the texts were clearly literal.In an abstract sense, Bahais are just as capable of being restrictive,of ruling out certain possiblities based on literal interpretations oftheir own scriptures. If that's not tying God's hands then what is? Perhaps the actual words of Baha`u'llah would be useful in this instance, so that we are not saying something He does not say: " Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in `Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot. http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/AQD/AQD-4.html Baha`u'llah does not "tie the hands of God" He says what God bids Him to say. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Baha`u'llah does not tie the hands of God He says what God bids Him to say. Dear Scott, That is precisely Gilberto's point, that Muslims in rejecting any prophet after Muhammad are simply following what God said. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:02:54 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott,That is precisely Gilberto's point, that Muslims in rejecting any prophetafter Muhammad are simply following what God said. Of course, but Baha`u'llah's words about the next Prophet are much clearer than using the word "Seal" in Muhammed's words. Especially since historically this was right after Muhammed had developed a signet ring (Seal) for doing business with Byzantium. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:23:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: this was right after Muhammed had developed a signet ring (Seal) for doing business with Byzantium. Huh? I think Muslims put as much stake in what Muhammad supposedly said at His last sermon as they do that verse in the Qur'an. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Later in His life Muhammed found it necessary to conduct correspondence with the Byzantines. They ignored letters that were not sealed a recognizable seal being a sign of authoirty. It is recounted that Muhammed had a series of ring seals made to authenticate His correspondence headed to Byzantium. Dear Scott, What I don't get is what is your point here? I agree most muslims put faith in the hadith of the last sermon, but I cannot equate hadith and the Qur'an. Whether you can or not is really irrelevant. The question really is whether or not Muslims are being faithful when they do? You can't measure them by standards of authority we arrived at for ourselves centuries later. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:53:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott,What I don't get is what is your point here? Well, it shows to me that Muhammed was well aware of the nature of a seal for authentication and validation. So it seems to me that using the term in describing Himself as the "Seal of the Prophets"must be taken in with that understanding. The Qur'an warns against hadith. If one uses hadith to justify a belief that there can be no further Revelation after Muhammed, is this justifiable scripturally? Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:57:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Qur'an warns against hadith. Where does it do that? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:14:32 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Qur'an warns against hadith. Where does it do that? "Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185 "Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6 "God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them." 39:23 [ 039.023 YUSUFALI: Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide. PICKTHAL: Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allah's reminder. Such is Allah's guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. SHAKIR: Allah has revealed the best announcement, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.] "These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6 [ 045.006 YUSUFALI: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? PICKTHAL: These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe? SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications? ] "Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34 [ 052.033 YUSUFALI: Or do they say, "He fabricated the (Message)"? Nay, they have no faith! PICKTHAL: Or say they: He hath invented it? Nay, but they will not believe! SHAKIR: Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. 052.034 YUSUFALI: Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth! PICKTHAL: Then let them produce speech the like thereof, if they are truthful. SHAKIR: Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful. 052.035 YUSUFALI: Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? PICKTHAL: Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators? SHAKIR: Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creators? ] "Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44 [068.044 YUSUFALI: Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not. PICKTHAL: Leave Me (to deal) with those who give the lie to this pronouncement. We shall lead them on by steps from whence they know not. SHAKIR: So leave Me and him who rejects this announcement; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not: ] "Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?" 77:50 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
Dear Scott, I see you have been visiting Dr. Khalifa's website. ;-} I would be very careful with that material. He had his own agenda. These verses do not at all refer to the oral traditions of the prophet. Hadith is a fairly common term meaning 'report.' You will note that in this context the Qur'an is treated is called a hadith. warmest, Ssuan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
I realize the English translation of those verses is different than I am used to, but they are quoted from an Islamic site that does not credit hadith in general. Dear Scott, Yes, I noted that. Rashad Khalifa led a Qur'an alone movement which rejected the hadiths entirely. It made it possible for him to interpret Islam pretty much any way he wanted to and he sort of ended up with his own cult following in Tucson where I used to live. He is also the one who came up with all this stuff about the numerical value of everything in the Qur'an egually 19 which Baha'is got very excited about a few years back. But as Mark can tell you, you can do this with virtually any text. I'm afraid he placed games with the Qur'an here. Sort of like if you were to pick up the Qur'an find where the term 'cause' occurs and say, See how often the Baha'i Faith is referred to? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
