subject:"Perennial Bab\?"

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:28:39 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Gliberto, I wrote:  I would agree that the spiritual
 attributes of which humans are capable are eternally
 appropriate.   However,  the material (scientific)
 capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and,
 continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find
 solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity,
 as inhabitants of one planet. 

 
 You responded:  I would just think that the material aspect
 of the Law can be dealt with without converting to a different
 religoin. At least in terms of islamic law, you have living
 scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the
 principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the
 realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any
 particular changes in technology or social organization in
 mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with.

 
 Forgive me for responding with questions, however, I'm not
 familiar enough with the judicial structure of Islam, or it's
 authority, to make a comparison.  Does the Quranic 
 scripture grant such prerogatives to scholars?

Yes, sort of. I say sort of because I don't think it is a matter of
authority or prerogative given to specific individuals (at least not
in sunni Islam). The Quran says if you don't know something, ask those
who know. (i.e. scholars). So in practice, when you have a question,
you seek out someone who by consensus is a knowledgable trained
scholar whom you trust. To arrive at rulings there are certain
traditional methodologies (especially those established by the 4
schools) which can get applied to contemporary situations.

There are places online where you can look at the rulings of
contemporary scholars who apply a traditional approach to current
situations.

One would be www.sunnipath.com


here are traditional methodologies which have been studid


But in terms of material changes, I think that if scientific knowledge
or social situations actually change substantially, there are ways for
scholars to take some of that into account when answering questions
and arriving at rulings. For example, once the health risk of smoking
became known, it would be possible for scholars to say that smoking is
prohibited (or at least strongly discouraged) on the grounds that it
would be letting your own hands be the cause of your own destruction
(something prohibited in the Quran).

And in terms of the various factors which scholars look to when
arriving at rulings, the Quran, the sunnah, analogy, etc. one of the
principles which is used in some cases is pre-existing customs of the
community.

What I would want to get across is that although there are certain
aspects of  Islam which might seem rigid and invariable, there is also
a certain amount of room for living scholars to respond to the
particularities of a given situation.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:37 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for
 a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an
 are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many
 teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves? 

  
 John,  
 To me one of the key issues is not whether specific teachings are already in
 the Qur'an (and I believe that, while they may be there  in the Bible, they
 are explained more clearly and fully by Baha'u'llah in the context of this
 Day).  Instead the issue is the guidance Baha'u'llah has given us to put 
 these teachings into effect.


Gilberto:
I think that is a really interesting point. And I think I see where
you are coming from but I would just disagree. If you are saying that
the teachings found in the texts are valid and sound, but they just
need to be interpreted correctly, then it should be sufficient to send
someone to interpret them correctly. According (at least) to sunni
Islam, every century a reformer (mujadid) is sent to do just that. And
in addition there are other kinds of saints or scholars who can appear
*within* a dispensation to bring a fresh interpretation of the
teachings. None of that should require a new dispensation.

Or are you saying that none of those medium-sized reformers are going
to come so we have to start over with a new manifestation? Or maybe
even if such reformers appear it is too hard to correctly identify
them?

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:53:26 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi, Gilberto,
 
 At 07:20 AM 12/28/2004, you wrote:
 I'm not sure where you started though. I was raised evangelical Christian. 
 So the idea of People of the Book was already rathet inclusive from my 
 perspective. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily believe that every 
 new age syncretic religion was going to be true.
 
 I was raised in a secular Jewish home, and I was not attracted to Judaism and 
 Islam for similar reasons. However, had the more universal, syncretist, and 
 new age, Jewish Renewal movement (aleph.org) existed back in the late 1960s 
 or early 1970s, I might have gotten involved with it (at least for a while).
 
 For instance, there is a professor where I work who is connected with the 
 Jewish Renewal movement. She tells me there are some people who consider 
 Christianity and Islam to be legitimate paths, a perspective which would 
 have been irresistible to me at 11, 12, or 13 years old. (I could even see 
 myself having eventually joined their rabbinical program.) However much I 
 like Aleph, I suppose I am grateful I became a Baha'i before it started.

What is the basis for the acceptance of Islam and Christianity? I've
read some things about the concept of Noachides in Judaism and it
seems to me that in essence Muslims would keep all the Noachide
commandments (and the one questionable point would possibly be the
attitude towards the Torah which Jews accept). I think it is less
clear in the case of Christians but they are also in the same
ballpark. Is that it or is there a different argument?

Peace

Gilberto





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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-29 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Gilberto,

At 10:07 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote:
What is the basis for the acceptance of Islam and Christianity?

With few exceptions, modern 

 I've read some things about the concept of Noachides in Judaism 

With few exceptions, modern Noachides are non-Jewish members of the Lubavicher 
Chasidim (Chabad), an aggressive, missionary branch of Orthodox Judaism. The 
official view of the Lubavichers is that non-Jews are responsible for 
conforming to the Noachide laws. The Lubavichers have, therefore, set up an 
organization intended to promote this principle:

http://www.noahide.com/

http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm

I have visited the local Chabad House of Kansas City. It is located in the 
bedroom community of Overland Park, where I work:

http://www.chabadkc.org/

... and it seems to me that in essence Muslims would keep all the Noachide 
commandments (and the one questionable point would possibly be the attitude 
towards the Torah which Jews accept). I think it is less clear in the case of 
Christians but they are also in the same ballpark. Is that it or is there a 
different argument?

It depends on the branch of Christianity. The Acts 28 Dispensationalists and 
Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would not care about the Noachide laws. However, 
the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania) and some (especially 
non-evangelical) branches of the Hebrew Christian movement would observe them. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:50:07 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi, Gilberto,
 
 Sorry, I accidentally sent that message before it was completed.
 

It's alright.


 At 10:07 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote:
 What is the basis for the acceptance of Islam and Christianity?
 
 The basis for the acceptance of which version of Islam or Christianity, and 
 by whom?


You had said the Jewish Renewal movement accepted Islam and
Christianity as legitimate paths. I was wondering if that acceptance
was done on the basis of them being Noachides.

 
  I've read some things about the concept of Noachides in Judaism 
 
 With few exceptions, modern Noachides are non-Jewish members of the 
 Lubavicher Chasidim (Chabad), an aggressive, missionary branch of Orthodox 
 Judaism.

Sure. But virtually all the Noachide commandments are also
specifically part of Islamic law (even the minimal dietary code when
it comes to blood). The only possible exception I can think of is that
somehow Noachides are supposed to study and uphold the Torah which
Muslims could probably do theoretically but in practice most Muslims
would take exception to the current Penteteuch.

Mark:
 The official view of the Lubavichers is that non-Jews are responsible
for conforming to the Noachide laws. The Lubavichers have, therefore,
set up an organization intended to promote this principle:

Gilberto:
I actually think it makes alot of sense as a way of reading the Bible.
After the flood, there actually *is* a covenant set up with Noah and
all his descendants (i.e. all human beings on the earth today...
assuming a literal reading). The sign was the rainbow. On God's side
he promises not to destroy the world by flood, but on man's side we
aren't supposed to do certain things. I'm not sure if I would insist
that all 7 commandments are actually found in that particular passage
of the Bible, but a bunch of them are pretty plausible.




 http://www.noahide.com/
 
 http://www.noahide.com/rebbe.htm
 
 I have visited the local Chabad House of Kansas City. It is located in the 
 bedroom community of Overland Park, where I work:
 
 http://www.chabadkc.org/
 
 ... and it seems to me that in essence Muslims would keep all the Noachide 
 commandments (and the one questionable point would possibly be the attitude 
 towards the Torah which Jews accept). I think it is less clear in the case 
 of Christians but they are also in the same ballpark. Is that it or is 
 there a different argument?
 
 It depends on the branch of Christianity. The Acts 28 Dispensationalists and 
 Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would not care about the Noachide laws. However, 
 the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania) and some (especially 
 non-evangelical) branches of the Hebrew Christian movement would observe them.

Gilberto:
When you say Hebrew Christian is that a very specific movement you
have in mind or is that more of a catch-all for the many churches who
to varying degrees believe in the continuing validity of the Jewish
Law?

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:22:17 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[About the Noachides]


 I actually think it makes alot of sense as a way of reading the Bible.

Mark: 
 As I said before, I think that almost all perspectives, at least the ones 
 with any longevity, have an internal logic. A continuing dialectic between 
 adherents, as historically grounded beings, and a paradigm, or assumptive 
 framework, tends to maintain this internal consistency.

Gilberto:
Sure. But among the various world-views which are on the market place
there are a collection of them whose assumptions strike me as more
plausible and whose logic I have a less troublesome time in following.
And given my background, I find it surprising and interesting that it
makes as much sense to me as it does.

 When you say Hebrew Christian is that a very specific movement you have 
 in mind or is that more of a catch-all for the many churches who to varying 
 degrees believe in the continuing validity of the Jewish Law?
 
 There are many different Hebrew Christian movements. I am talking about 
 those, such as the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania), which are not 
 connected with mainline Protestant evangelicalism. (In other words, not 
 groups like Jews for Jesus.) Many of them are anti-Trinitarian (But not 
 Monarchian or Arian), annihilationist (accepting the doctrine of conditional 
 immortality, i.e., that unbelievers will be instantly *consumed* in hellfire, 
 not go to an eternal punishment), and they believe in soul sleep.
 

Yeah, I actually find groups like that pretty interesting. There are
several interesting variations too..the Ethiopian Orthodox Chuch (I
gather) has more of a Jewish emphasis than some other groups. So do
the Hebrew Israelites and Rastafarians. Then at the another end you
have Anglo-Israelite groups too which can get kind of scary.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

 So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not 
the last prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in 
the Prophetic Cycle? 


Dear Gilberto,

In response to the above comment I would like to offer a 
personal observation:


In relating the internment of the Báb's remains on Mt. Carmel, 
the Guardian referred to the Báb's life as standing at the 
confluence of TWO UNIVERSAL PROPHETIC CYCLES:


Thus ended a life which posterity will recognize as standing 
at the confluence of two universal prophetic cycles, the 
Adamic Cycle stretching back as far as the first dawnings of 
the world's recorded religious history and the Bahá'í Cycle 
destined to propel itself across the unborn reaches of time 
for a period of no less than five thousand centuries. 
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 54)


In several instances, Shoghi Effendi has referred to 
`Abdu'l-Bahá as the Pivot of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant.  He was 
the self acknowledged Servant of Baha - during the lifetime of 
Bahá'u'lláh and after His ascension.


I think of the Báb as the pivot or as He is known, the Primal 
Point, (the Gate) between Cycles.  This in no way diminishes 
His Revelation which was essential in this transition from one 
cycle to the next.

lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Gilberto:   I think that if God is really speaking and a 
religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by 
another in order to progress. If the revelation is really 
inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular 
religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and 
apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. 


from`Abdu'l-Bahá:
 . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the 
fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that 
is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine 
qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of 
Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, 
Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, 
and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC 
CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and 
not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, 
justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, 
benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience 
and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the 
oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.


These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER 
BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for 
ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in 
each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle 
the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human 
virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. .


.These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual 
and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; 
they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle 
of every Prophet.


The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the 
material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of 
worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal 
processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, 
theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which 
refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH 
PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the 
times.   (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)  (my 
caps)


I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans 
are capable are eternally appropriate.   However,  the 
material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced 
to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become 
necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued 
survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.


lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Gilberto Simpson

Yes, Sandra, I've seen that passage from the writings. I would just
think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without
converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law,
you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding
the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities
of contemporary life.

Peace

Gilberto



On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:   I think that if God is really speaking and a
 religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by 
 another in order to progress. If the revelation is really
 inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular
 religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and
 apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times.
 
 
 from`Abdu'l-Bahá:
 
  . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the
 fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that
 is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine
 qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of
 Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah,
 Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh,
 and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC
 CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and
 not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude,
 justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God,
 benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience
 and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the
 oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
 
 These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER
 BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for
 ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in
 each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle
 the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human
 virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. .
 
 .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual
 and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated;
 they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle
 of every Prophet.
 
 The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the
 material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of
 worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal
 processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence,
 theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which
 refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH
 PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the
 times.   (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)  (my
 caps)
 
 I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans
 are capable are eternally appropriate.   However,  the
 material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced
 to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become
 necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued
 survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.
 
 lovingly,  Sandra
 
 
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-- 


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Gilberto Simpson

Yes, Sandra, I've seen that passage from the writings. I would just
think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without
converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law,
you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding
the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities
of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes
in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam
would have trouble keeping up with.


Peace

Gilberto



On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:   I think that if God is really speaking and a
 religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by 
 another in order to progress. If the revelation is really
 inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular
 religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and
 apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times.
 
 
 from`Abdu'l-Bahá:
 
  . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the
 fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that
 is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine
 qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of
 Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah,
 Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh,
 and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC
 CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and
 not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude,
 justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God,
 benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience
 and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the
 oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
 
 These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER
 BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for
 ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in
 each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle
 the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human
 virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. .
 
 .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual
 and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated;
 they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle
 of every Prophet.
 
 The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the
 material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of
 worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal
 processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence,
 theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which
 refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH
 PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the
 times.   (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)  (my
 caps)
 
 I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans
 are capable are eternally appropriate.   However,  the
 material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced
 to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become
 necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued
 survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.
 
 lovingly,  Sandra
 
 
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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Gilberto,

At 07:20 AM 12/28/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure where you started though. I was raised evangelical Christian. So 
the idea of People of the Book was already rathet inclusive from my 
perspective. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily believe that every 
new age syncretic religion was going to be true.

I was raised in a secular Jewish home, and I was not attracted to Judaism and 
Islam for similar reasons. However, had the more universal, syncretist, and 
new age, Jewish Renewal movement (aleph.org) existed back in the late 1960s 
or early 1970s, I might have gotten involved with it (at least for a while). 

For instance, there is a professor where I work who is connected with the 
Jewish Renewal movement. She tells me there are some people who consider 
Christianity and Islam to be legitimate paths, a perspective which would have 
been irresistible to me at 11, 12, or 13 years old. (I could even see myself 
having eventually joined their rabbinical program.) However much I like Aleph, 
I suppose I am grateful I became a Baha'i before it started.

 Moreover the question of whether a religion is true is also seperate from 
 what God's criteria for salvation are.

I was very much a solipsist as a young teenager. Truth, as I saw it, was 
entirely subjective. (In some ways, I haven't changed much grin.) In any 
event, as a kid, Islam, as I saw it, was too close for comfort to Judaism.

But there are some strikingly inclusive passages in Islam as well. For 
example:

I read through them. However, if I asked a Muslim whether future prophets, 
avatars, or (to use my preferred term at the time) sat gurus could have 
followed Muhammad, and the answer was negative, I would have looked elsewhere.

And note that none of these passages even specify believing in Muhammad 
(saaws) as an essential condition. Just tawhid.

Yes.

I'm certainly not saying that following Muhammad is not important. It is. 
Following the Quran and sunnah gives us a particular path where we can grow 
closer to God.But in terms of human salvation its not necessarily a 
deal-breaker.

Interesting.

I'm not sure what that last sentence would mean. I thought the standard Bahai 
statement was that across dispensations the social teachings are different 
but the spiritual teachings are the same. So are you saying that Most 
Bahais are also Traditionalists?

If they believe that, they might be open to the philosophy. ;-) I would not say 
that the spiritual teachings are the same in each Dispensation. Based on God's 
Will, they are, in my view, both eternal and progressive. However, I was 
referring to Baha'is who *explicitly* identified themselves with traditionalist 
esotericism and Platonism. I have known a few.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread John Smith

Sandra,

Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves? My explanation in my own mind is that there is a spiritual reality that connects only through the most recent revelation in some mysterious way... but what is the outward _expression_ of this? (We are told that every spiritual reality is mirrored in the physical world).Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:  I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. from`Abdu'l-Bahá:" . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC CYCLES. It will NEVE!
 R BE
 ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. ..These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.The second !
 part of
 the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the times." (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46) (my caps)I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally "appropriate". However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.lovingly, Sandra __You are subsc!
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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Dear Gliberto, I wrote:  I would agree that the spiritual
attributes of which humans are capable are eternally
appropriate.   However,  the material (scientific)
capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and,
continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find
solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity,
as inhabitants of one planet. 
You responded:  I would just think that the material aspect
of the Law can be dealt with without converting to a different
religoin. At least in terms of islamic law, you have living
scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the
principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the
realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any
particular changes in technology or social organization in
mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with.

Forgive me for responding with questions, however, I'm not 
familiar enough with the judicial structure of Islam, or it's 
authority, to make a comparison.  Does the Quranic scripture 
grant such prerogatives to scholars?  By what method are the 
qualified separated from those less qualified?  Is there a 
Quranic mandate for acceptance of their rulings?

Lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Patti Goebel




"Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for 
a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are 
accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching 
already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves?" 

John,

To me one of the key issues is not whether specific 
teachings are already in the Qur'an (and I believe that, while they may be there 
 in the Bible, they are explained more clearly and fully by Baha'u'llah in 
the context of this Day).Instead the issue is the guidance 
Baha'u'llah has given us to put these teachings into effect. Prior to 
Baha'u'llah the major religions have different  disputed claims of 
leadership immediately following the death of the Manifestation. I note 
that there were disputed claims even in the Baha'i Faith; however, unlike the 
previous Manifestations, Baha'u'llah  Abdu'l-Baha left written instructions 
for the formation of the institutions of the Faith that Shoghi Effendi later put 
into practice.One of the last things Shoghi Effendi accomplished was 
the implementation of the Ten Year Plan, which brought the Baha'i world to a 
point where the election of the Universal House of Justice could happen. 


Now, we have the House of Justice, a group of 
individuals, who, by the nature of their election are not ones who sought the 
office, but instead are elected, without seeking the office,based on their 
commitment of service to the community. This distinguishes the Faith 
from past religions where there are multiple claims of authority,and 
different individuals can impose their different interpretations (and in most 
case self-serving interpretations meant to enrich the interpreter's pockets or 
ego) of scripture on various populations.

If for no other reason, I see this as a need for 
the new revelation.

Patti
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Perennial Bab?

I think I got the idea that maybe the Bab wasn't so much into
Perennialism was a passage I read a long time ago:


7 No one hath been or will ever be invested with prophethood other
than Thee, nor hath any sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any
one except Thee. Such is the decree ordained by Him Who is the
All-Encompassing, the Best Beloved.
   
8 The Bayán is in truth Our conclusive proof for all created things,
and all the peoples of the world are powerless before the revelation
of its verses. It enshrineth the sum total of all the Scriptures,
whether of the past or of the future, even as Thou art the Repository
of all Our proofs in this Day. We cause whomsover We desire to be
admitted into the gardens of our most holy, most sublime Paradise.
Thus is divine revelation inaugurated in each Dispensation at Our
behest. We are truly the supreme Ruler. Indeed no religion shall We
ever inaugurate unless it be renewed in the days to come. This is a
promise We solemnly have made. Verily We are supreme over all
things...
 
[end quote]

So the seeming-exclusive description of the Bab's status in 7 and then
the claim that the Bayan enshrineth the sum total of all the
Scriptures, whether of the past or of the future tends to suggest
something different from progressive revelation. I mean, I think the
Bab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed from
time to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelations
will be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are just
reiterations of the perennial wisdom. I mean, how else could the Bayan
endhrine all the future revelations without something like the
perennial wisdom?

Peace

Gilberto

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In a message dated 12/27/2004 9:17:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I mean, I think theBab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed fromtime to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelationswill be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are justreiterations of the perennial wisdom. I mean, how else could the Bayanendhrine all the future revelations without something like theperennial wisdom?
Baha`u'llah says that the Quran provided two of twenty-seven letters of Revelation and the Bab provided theother twenty-five. So the Revelation of the Bab in the view of Baha`u'llah is complete. He also says that each and every Prophet had the same complete Knowledge of everything God decreed, but revealed to man what God allowed Him to reveal. So all the Prophets have complete knowledge.

On the other hand, the Bab spends most of His prophetic speech for "He Whom God Will Make Manifest" and says that his own Revelation will be surpassed.

Selections From the Writings of the Báb

Pages 5-8

A SECOND TABLET ADDRESSED TO `HIM WHO WILL BE MADE MANIFEST'

May the glances of Him Whom God shall make manifest illumine this letter at the primary school. [1]

He is the Most Glorious.

HE is God, no God is there but Him, the Almighty, the Best Beloved. All that are in the heavens and on the earth and whatever lieth between them are His. Verily He is the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: `Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee.'

Verily Thou art the Self-Sufficient, the All-Knowing; Thou art indeed potent over all things.
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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:18:12 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/27/2004 9:17:56 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I mean, I think the
 Bab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed from
 time to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelations
 will be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are just
 reiterations of the perennial wisdom. I mean, how else could the Bayan
 enshrine all the future revelations without something like the
 perennial wisdom?




 Baha`u'llah says that the Quran provided two of twenty-seven letters of
 Revelation and the Bab provided theother twenty-five. So the Revelation of
 the Bab in the view of Baha`u'llah is complete.

Gilberto:
Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab was
complete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if he
provides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there for
revelation after the Bab?

Gilberto

I understand that the Bahais believe in progressive revelation but
then how do you parse those other statements which seem to say
something different?

Peace

Gilbeto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-27 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:51:08 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab wascomplete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if heprovides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there forrevelation after the Bab?GilbertoI understand that the Bahais believe in progressive revelation butthen how do you parse those other statements which seem to saysomething different?
Okay, we have established that from a Baha`i point of view, the Bab completes the revelation. Then we need to discuss why Revelation needs further completion?
What doesthe Bab have to say about it, I quoted the 2nd Tablet to He Whom God Will Make Manifest and the Bab Himself says that the Revelation to be brought by that future Prophet will make the Bab's Book complete. So, why should we think that the completeness of the Bab's Revelation is an obstacle to further revelation when the Bab Himself says it must come to pass?

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Perennial Bab?

Hi, Gilberto,

At 09:17 AM 12/27/2004, you quoted:
7 No one hath been or will ever be invested with prophethood other than Thee, 
nor hath any sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any one except Thee. 
Such is the decree ordained by Him Who is the All-Encompassing, the Best 
Beloved.

Off the top of my head, I think that may be a reference to the Bab as the 
Primal Point. Given the revolutionary characteristics of the Bab's teachings, I 
think it would difficult to read perennialism into them. For instance, the Bab 
did authorize the burning of all non-Babi books, which was subsequently revoked 
by Baha'u'llah.

 ...The severe laws and injunctions revealed by the Bab can be properly 
appreciated and understood only when interpreted in the light of His own 
statements regarding the nature, purpose and character of His own Dispensation. 
As these statements clearly reveal, the Babi Dispensation was essentially in 
the nature of a religious and indeed social revolution and its duration had 
therefore to be short, but full of tragic events, of sweeping and drastic 
reforms.  These drastic measures enforced by the Bab and His followers were 
taken with the view of undermining the very foundations of Shi'ah orthodoxy, 
and thus paving the way for the coming of Baha'u'llah.  To assert the 
independence of the new Dispensation, and to prepare also the ground for the 
approaching Revelation of Baha'u'llah, the Bab had therefore to reveal very 
severe laws, even though most of them were never enforced.  But the mere fact 
that He revealed them was in itself a proof of the independent character of His 
Dispensation and was sufficient to create such widespread agitation, and excite 
such opposition on the part of the clergy that led them to cause His eventual 
martyrdom. 
-- From a letter, dated Feb. 17, 1939, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi 
(Lights of Guidance, p.471)

So the seeming-exclusive description of the Bab's status in 7 and then the 
claim that the Bayan enshrineth the sum total of all the Scriptures, whether 
of the past or of the future tends to suggest something different from 
progressive revelation.

It is different. It is an assertion of absolute authority. Had the Bab been a 
perennialist, He certainly would not have wanted all non-Babi books to be 
burned.

I mean, I think the Bab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be 
renewed from time to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next 
revelations will be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe they are just 
reiterations of the perennial wisdom.

How do you read the passage where the Bab says that each divine Revelation is 
perfected through the appearance of the next?

I mean, how else could the Bayan endhrine all the future revelations without 
something like the perennial wisdom?

In a sense, all the Prophets enshrine past and future Revelations. They all 
manifest the Will of God. However, the Bab, as the Primal Point, had a special 
relation to the Revelations before and after Him. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:27:35 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:51:08 AM Central Standard Time,

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Gilberto:
 Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab was
 complete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if he
 provides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there for
 revelation after the Bab?

 
 Gilberto: 
 I understand that the Bahais believe in progressive revelation but
 then how do you parse those other statements which seem to say  something 
 different?


Scott:
 Okay, we have established that from a Baha`i point of view, the Bab  
 completes the revelation. 

Gilberto:
There are strong statements which definitely give that impression.
That the Bayan enshrines all past and future revelations. That the Bab
came with the 27 letters. And the Bayan says: No one hath been or
will ever be invested with prophethood other than Thee, nor hath any
sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any one except Thee.

Scott:
 Then we need to discuss why Revelation needs
 further completion?
 What doesthe Bab have to say about it, I quoted the 2nd Tablet  to He Whom 
 God Will Make Manifest and the Bab Himself 
 says that the Revelation to be brought by that future Prophet 
 will make the Bab's Book complete. So, why  should we think  that the 
 completeness of the Bab's Revelation is an obstacle
 to further revelation when the Bab Himself says it must come 
 to pass?

Gliberto:
I'm not saying one is necessarily an obstacle to the other, but it
still seems like a puzzle which leaves open some legitimate questions.
What did the Bab mean by saying that no one would be invested with
prophethood after Thee [Him?] If Bahaullah was going to come shortly
after him? And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayan
enshrines all future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message was
redundant?

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-27 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/27/2004 5:18:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What did the Bab mean by saying that no one would be invested withprophethood after Thee [Him?] If Bahaullah was going to come shortlyafter him? And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayanenshrines all future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message wasredundant?
In one sense the Bab and Baha`u'llah are two different men with two different books. But in another sense they are the same Spirit and the same Book. Baha`u'llah explains this in the Iqan. And if the Bab came with the full revelation, why did He specify the arrival of the new Prophet (He Whom God Shall Make Manifest)? and subordinate His own Revelation and message to HWGSMM?

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:32:47 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 05:17 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
 And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayan enshrines all 
 future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message was redundant?
 
 I am just speculating. However, from a Baha'i point of view (to my 
 understanding), the Bab completed the Prophetic Cycle which was sealed by 
 Muhammad.
 

So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last
prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic
Cycle?

-Gilberto



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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:14:40 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto
 
 At 05:53 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
 I'm not sure about why Perennialism would preclude that sort of behavior. 
 At least when I think about it, Perennialism might imply a theoretical and 
 intellectual tolerance for many different religions and perspectives but on 
 the level of action, I think one can still follow the specific dictates of 
 a particular path, however exclusive it might seem.
 
 I think you would then need to provide evidence that the Bab regarded His 
 Revelation as a particular path. 

I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the
Bab's writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all
religions are fit to be universal) make sense from a traditionalist
perennialism.

Mark:
It seems to me He was attempting to make a radical break with
virtually everything which had taken place before Him, not that He was
presenting Babism as just another tariqat or dharma. If one of the
points of perennialism is *tolerance* of other paths, I don't see much
of that tolerance in the Bab's writings.


I'm not saying the Bab is actually a member of one of the older
religions. And again, the tolerance can be theoretical.

 
 Although I don't know if my thesis can be justified by the Bab's Own 
 writings, I would, as a qualification, suggest that the Bab's intolerance was 
 an instance of hikmat. It was functional, not actual. (Although I don't know 
 if this conclusion can be justified by the Bab's writings.) Certainly, the 
 Bab never enforced most of the radical aspects of His shariah. Regardless, 
 the fact that He laid out these extreme provisions would seem to vitiate 
 against a Babi perennialism.

Gilberto:
Where do you go to find out what the shariah of the Bab was? I've
looked at the writings of the Bab but the stuff I've seen tends not to
include much legislation or commandments.

 Perennialism isn't a syncretism.

 Some approaches to perennialism are syncretistic. Theosophy would be an 
 example. So are some of the schools of surat shabd yoga (Radhasoami Satsang) 
 which explicitly claim to represent the perennial philosophy. Others, such as 
 the ones advocated by most self-identified traditionalists (Schuon, Guenon, 
 Nasr, etc.), oppose syncretism.

Gilberto:
Sure. But your arguments against the Bab being a perennialist made me
think you were just thinking of the former case.
 
 I could be a perennialist Muslim but that doesn't mean I go to mass and 
 drink the communion wine or eat food sacrificed to hindu idols or eat ribs 
 at a local church bar-b-q.
 
 Are you a traditionalist? Most traditionalists argue that persons should 
 recognize the unity of religions (on the esoteric level) while simultaneously 
 engaging in the exoteric praxes of a specific tradition. So, yes, if you are 
 a traditionalist, participating in the ceremonies of other religions 
 traditions would not be expected.

I wouldn't call myself a card-carrying Traditionalist or Perennialist
but I like the authors I've read from that perspective (Nasr, Schuon,
Lings, Eaton) and their ideas appeal to me.

 Quoting:
 If the religions are true it is because each time it is God who has spoken, 
 and if they are different it is because God has spoken in different 
 languages in conformity with the receptacles. Finally, if they are 
 absolute and exclusive, it is because in each of them God has said I.
 - Frithjof Schuon (1963)

Mark: 
 I agree with Schuon as far as he goes. What is lacking in that quotation is 
 any reference to a progression of these so-called traditions.

Gilberto:
That's just it though. I think that if God is really speaking and a
religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another
in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then
morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can
still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are
appropriate for our times.


Gilberto:
 And just as other religions have claims to being final, exclusive, 
 ultimate, which the Bahais relativize and wouldn't take seriously because 
 they believe in Bahaullah. Perhaps the Bahai claims to be progressed or 
 advanced should also be relativized.

Mark:
 All claims of progression or advancement are temporally relative, including 
 those relating to the Baha'i Faith.


Gilberto:
I would think about it differently. Allowing for the moment the
possibility that Bahaullah really is a Manifestation, then perhaps the
claim of the Bahai faith to be the most recent progressed faith is a
relative one which depends on your perspective, just as the Jewish
claim that the Torah is valid forever (at least it says so in the
Bible) is a relative one.


Gilberto
 Perhaps God has spoken and continues to be found within all these various 
 communities.

Mark:
 I think that God can, and does, speak to many people.

Gilberto:
 And members of these religious traditions

Re: Perennial Bab?

Gilberto,

At 07:20 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet, 
but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle?

It depends on one's terminologies and categories. I would say that *both* 
Muhammad and the Bab concluded the Prophetic Cycle, and that *both* Baha'u'llah 
and the Bab began the Cycle of Fulfillment. The Bab is the Primal Point between 
both cycles.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Perennial Bab?

But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?

Peace

Gilberto



On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:48:48 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 07:20 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
 So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet, 
 but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle?
 
 It depends on one's terminologies and categories. I would say that *both* 
 Muhammad and the Bab concluded the Prophetic Cycle, and that *both* 
 Baha'u'llah and the Bab began the Cycle of Fulfillment. The Bab is the Primal 
 Point between both cycles.
 
 With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
 Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman
 
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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-27 Thread John Smith



G:
But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?J:
In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As far as (1) is concerned, He is in the cycle of fulfillment, not the prophetic cycle. As far as (2) is concerned, He spent a lot of time foretelling the coming of HWGWMM (Baha'u'llah), therefore putting Him in the Prophetic cycle.


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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:09:30 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 G:
 
 But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?
 
 J: 
 In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent
 Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah.  As far as (1) is
 concerned, He is in the cycle of fulfillment, not the prophetic cycle.  As
 far as (2) is concerned, He spent a lot of time foretelling the coming of
 HWGWMM (Baha'u'llah), therefore putting Him in the Prophetic cycle.
 


But aren't the previous Manifestations supposed to be independent
manifestations too, but they are still considered part of the cycle of
prophethood. no?

-Gilberto

  
 
  
 
 
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Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-27 Thread John Smith



G:
But aren't the previous Manifestations supposed to be independentmanifestations too, but they are still considered part of the cycle ofprophethood. no?J:
As always, all these are my own view and I may be wrong. But my understanding is that the BabBaha'u'llahare the only manifestations that fulfill the propheciesabout the 'end times/day of resurrection/day of God' mentioned in the Qur'an/Bible.
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Re: Perennial Bab?

Gilberto,

At 07:47 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's 
writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit to 
be universal) make sense from a traditionalist perennialism.

But where do you get the perennialism? Doesn't the Bab's reference to each 
Revelation being perfected in the next one point to a kind of progressive 
Revelation?

Where do you go to find out what the shariah of the Bab was? I've looked at 
the writings of the Bab but the stuff I've seen tends not to include much 
legislation or commandments.

Here is a good site:

http://www.inventcreat.com/bayan/b0en.html

See, for instance, this page:

http://www.inventcreat.com/bayan/b4en.html

For instance:

It is unlawful to teach books other than the Bayan unless there be therein 
something relating to Scholastic Philosophy 

Sure. But your arguments against the Bab being a perennialist made me think 
you were just thinking of the former case.

I just don't think you have presented sufficient evidence that the Bab held to 
perennialist, or traditionalist, viewpoints.

I wouldn't call myself a card-carrying Traditionalist or Perennialist but I 
like the authors I've read from that perspective (Nasr, Schuon, Lings, Eaton) 
and their ideas appeal to me.

If I were a perennialist, Lex Hixon's approach (similar to Aldous Huxley's) or 
H.P.B.'s Theosophy would probably appeal to me more than than Schuon's or 
Guenon's. Traditionalism seems much too conservative to me.

That's just it though. I think that if God is really speaking and a religion 
is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to 
progress.

However, the major theme of Bab's writings was, in effect, His replacement, and 
revelational progress has never been a theme of most (any?) major perennialist 
writers.

If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the 
particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply 
the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times.

Do you think that the Bab left His revelation to morally sensitive people to 
apply to their times?

I would think about it differently. Allowing for the moment the possibility 
that Bahaullah really is a Manifestation, then perhaps the claim of the Bahai 
faith to be the most recent progressed faith is a relative one which depends 
on your perspective, just as the Jewish claim that the Torah is valid forever 
(at least it says so in the Bible) is a relative one.

However, in the case of the Baha'i Faith, it is Baha'u'llah Who regarded His 
Revelation to be the most recent.

Sure, and it would also include taking a traditional understanding of seal 
of the prophets seriously as well.

How would you interpret seal (khatam) from a traditionalist standpoint? For 
instance, what if some followers of, say, Meher Baba, claimed to be 
traditionalists and regarded Baba as the latest prophet, avatar, etc.? Would 
you accept their claim from their own traditionalist standpoint but reject it 
from your own? What about if some Baha'is were traditionalists, and there are 
some, and made similar claims about Baha'u'llah?

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Perennial Bab?

Hi, John,

At 08:01 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
Mark,  You called him the point between the cycles... I retract the statement 
about the line, because two cycles/circles touch at one point and not at a 
line.

Yes. I was referring to the Bab's title, Primal Point (nuqtiy-i-ula).

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
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Re: Perennial Bab?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:32:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 07:47 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
 I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's 
 writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit 
 to be universal) make sense from a traditionalist perennialism.
 
 But where do you get the perennialism? Doesn't the Bab's 
 reference to each Revelation being perfected in the next one  point to a 
 kind of progressive Revelation?

Maybe I'm misremembering it but the passage I saw recently talked
about the previous revelations being renewed which to me suggested
more of a repetitive process where the revelation is more of a
reminder of what came before.



 I wouldn't call myself a card-carrying Traditionalist or Perennialist but I 
 like the authors I've read from that perspective (Nasr, Schuon, Lings, 
 Eaton) and their ideas appeal to me.
 
 If I were a perennialist, Lex Hixon's approach (similar to Aldous Huxley's) 
 or H.P.B.'s Theosophy would probably appeal to me more than than Schuon's or 
 Guenon's. Traditionalism seems much too conservative to me.

I wouldn't call myself conservative by temperment. But by
Traditionalism all I'm saying is that although I like Perennialism, I
also don't think that anything goes.If you really believe that God
spoke at specific times in history then it makes sense to strive to
connect to God through those traditional authentic channels.

That doesn't necessarily leave non-traditional people out in the cold though.


 That's just it though. I think that if God is really speaking and a 
 religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in 
 order to progress.
 
 However, the major theme of Bab's writings was, in effect, His replacement, 
 and revelational progress has never been a theme of most (any?) major 
 perennialist writers.
 
 If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from 
 the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and 
 apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times.
 
 Do you think that the Bab left His revelation to morally sensitive people 
 to apply to their times?


I think we are talking about two different things. One is whether the
Bab was a Perennialist. I'm willing to hold off on that till reading
more about the writings. Secondly, whether Perennialism/Traditionalism
makes sense independently of whether the Bab endorsed it or not.

Gilberto:
 I would think about it differently. Allowing for the moment the possibility 
 that Bahaullah really is a Manifestation, then perhaps the claim of the 
 Bahai faith to be the most recent progressed faith is a relative one which 
 depends on your perspective, just as the Jewish claim that the Torah is 
 valid forever (at least it says so in the Bible) is a relative one.

Mark:
 However, in the case of the Baha'i Faith, it is Baha'u'llah 
 Who regarded His Revelation to be the most recent. But I thought in the Bahai 
 faith religious language was generally seen as metaphorical and relative. 
 Even if Bahaullah said This is the bestest religion ever it still doesn't 
 rule out that the claim is relative. 


 
 Sure, and it would also include taking a traditional understanding of seal 
 of the prophets seriously as well.
 
 How would you interpret seal (khatam) from a traditionalist standpoint? 

I'm not sure how Schuon and Nasr do it. Personally, I would just
refuse to call post-Muhammad religious figures prophets.I mean, I
haven't concluded that Bahaullah is a Manifestation so your question
isn't all that deep to me.

I guess in general I would take the standard claims of Islam
seriously. But then hold out the possibility that my opinion or
perspective is only relatively true. And that from a God's-eye
perspective it might be possible to reconcile the various claims of
different religions.

People who believe in other religions might fall under ahl
al-kitab.The Quran also mentions those who believe in Allah and the
Last Day which would necessarily be more inclusive.

There are passages in the Quran and hadith which suggest that tawhid
might be sufiicient for salvation so I would be open to the idea that
other religions might satisfy God's criteria for tawhid whether I can
recognize it or not.

Mark:
For instance, what if some followers of, say, Meher Baba, claimed to
be traditionalists and regarded Baba as the latest prophet, avatar,
etc.? Would you accept their claim from their own traditionalist
standpoint but reject it from your own?

Gilberto:
I wouldn't accept their claim from their perspective. I would avoid
avatar or any kind of incarnational language. But hold out the
possibility that they are saintly monotheists and that God will accept
them.

Mark:
 What about if some Baha'is were traditionalists, and there are some,
and made similar claims about Baha'u'llah?

I'm not sure what a Bahai traditionalist would look like?

Peace

Gilberto
My

Re: Perennial Bab?