subject:"Re\: Arson"

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:41:05 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,

 I wrote:
 What kind of reasoning process?

 You replied:
 One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we 
 think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of 
 society that would result in.

 A thought experiment.

or even trial and error, sure.

 Well, thought experiments are not exactly based on trial and error.

All I'm saying is that doing thought experiements is only one example
of the kind of moral reasoning I am talking about. It could also
involve concrete experiences.


Gilberto:
 Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of 
 actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences.

Mark:
 I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the 
 top of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the 
 case. When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative 
 for customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would 
 happen if a customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany?

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you mean by that in that would not be the case.
You are the one hung up on the names now. I wouldn't assume that
begging for money in Zeire is the same as begging for money in
Germany. And perhaps you could say that in Zaire customs officials
occurs frequently and went on unpunished. I'm not sure if that makes
it normative.

Mark:
 I don't see how saying, I can think of many situations in which that would 
 not be the case, is being hung up with names. You would need to explain that 
 to me.


Gilberto:
What I'm saying is that you consider the consequences of each
individual act in each particular situation. Just because two
different acts have the same name (e.g. begging or killing or
marrying a 9-year-old female) doesn't mean I would expect them to
have the same consequences or would evaluate them the same way. And
just because those acts have different consequences in different
situations isn't a proof of moral relativism.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-28 Thread Iskandar Hai

See below..
Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:31:43 -0500, Iskandar Hai
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Gilberto (not dear Gilberto):
  If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude
 that
  anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely
 not
  moral relativists.
 
 In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan
 affirmed that they believed in moral relativism.
 

So, again, you took my comments and earlier comments/postings of Mark
and Susan out of context and made distortions. Well, that's not the
first time you have done this. I bet it won't be the last time either.

  For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was
  not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances.
 
 But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful
 and that there was something wrong with it.
 
 [2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In
 both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and
 their sin is greater than their profit. 
 

But there was a verse revealed earlier that says: don't come to prayer
sessions when you are drunk. Quran 2:219 was revealed later; it was the
second step and 2:219 was not (is not) a categorical prohibition of wine
under all circumstances. 

 I wouldn't consider the change in qiblah a moral issue. 
 


I would. 

So, what's your hang up with the things in the Quran and Bible about
Abraham? 

Regards, 
Iskandar
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:14:42 -0500, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 See below..
 Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:31:43 -0500, Iskandar Hai
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Gilberto (not dear Gilberto):
   If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude
  that
   anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely
  not
   moral relativists.

Gilberto:
  In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan
  affirmed that they believed in moral relativism.

Iskandar:
 So, again, you took my comments and earlier comments/postings of Mark
 and Susan out of context and made distortions. Well, that's not the
 first time you have done this. I bet it won't be the last time either.

Gilberto:
Please don't make unfounded accusations. I didn't distort anything.
That's how they both chose to categorize their positions. I wasn't
putting words in their mouths. And they are both grown-ups and are
certainly capable of speaking for themselves.

Iskandar
   For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was
   not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances.

Gilberto:
  But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful
  and that there was something wrong with it.


  [2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In
  both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and
  their sin is greater than their profit.

Iskandar: 
 But there was a verse revealed earlier that says: don't come to prayer
 sessions when you are drunk. Quran 2:219 was revealed later; it was the
 second step and 2:219 was not (is not) a categorical prohibition of wine
 under all circumstances.

Gilberto:
I don't know if there are any sources which give the order you are
talking about. Some of the pages I've looked at say that 2:219 was the
first of the three verses dealing with intoxicants and the one you are
talking about was second.

In any case, the chemical formula for alcohol didn't change when the
Quran came down, so its always had certain effects. I think that the
fact that alcohol is problematic is a constant.

Gilberto:
  I wouldn't consider the change in qiblah a moral issue.
 
 
 
 I would.

What does the Quran say?

[2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the
East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe
in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the
prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin
and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for
(the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the
poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a
promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of
conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are
they who guard (against evil).

Gilberto:
So how are you defining morality?

Iskandar:
 So, what's your hang up with the things in the Quran and Bible about
 Abraham?

Gilberto:
It's not a hang-up. I'm perfectly happy to let the matter drop. I just
wouldn't want to casually suggest that prophets might lie or commit
idolatry.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:43:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/28/05 8:06:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  
  Gilberto (not dear Gilberto): 
  If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude that 
  anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely not 
  moral relativists. 
 
 In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan 
 affirmed that they believed in moral relativism.
 
Susan: 
 That's because the definition above is not our understanding of moral
 relativism.

I've never accused you of holding that position. That was how Iskander
chose to interpret moral relativism.

Susan:
 We understand that morality 'relates' to concrete circumstances,
 it isn't just an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere. 

Iskandar: 
  For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was 
  not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances. 

Gilberto:
 But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful 
 and that there was something wrong with it.

Susan:
 Yes, by the time the Qur'an was composed this was true,but in antiquity
 iwine was quite necessary. Putting a little wine into your water was one of
 the few ways people had of disinfecting it. 

And it is recognized in Islamic law that if it is medically necessary
and there are no reasonable alternatives one can consume alcohol.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-28 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:10:52 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:It's not a hang-up. I'm perfectly happy to let the matter drop. I justwouldn't want to casually suggest that prophets might lie or commitidolatry.
I do not think a Prophet ever lied. I believe they chose when not to speak, but no lies. I do not think a Prophet is capable of idolatry, They operate on a plane of nearness to Godmuch more exalted than mine.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-28 Thread Mark A. Foster

Susan,

At 10:43 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
That's because the definition above is not our understanding of moral 
relativism. We understand that morality 'relates' to concrete circumstances, 
it isn't just an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere.

Yes. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:17:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Susan,
 
 At 10:43 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
 That's because the definition above is not our understanding of moral 
 relativism. We understand that morality 'relates' to concrete 
 circumstances, it isn't just an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere.
 
 Yes.

I'm not sure I would identify with the idea of an absolute ideal up
in the sky somewhere. From my perspective, Islam is a very pragmatic
realistic religion. Alot of emphasis is put on the fact that the Quran
was revealed in stages and lived example of the prophet. On top of
that, many of the commandments are explicitly given exceptions due to
duress or other circumstances.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-28 Thread JS



G:Alot of emphasis is put on the fact that the Quran was revealed in stages
Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation hath been vouchsafed unto men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity... if the Sun of Truth were suddenly to reveal, at the earliest stages of its manifestation, the full measure of the potencies which the providence of the Almighty hath bestowed upon it, the earth of human understanding would waste away and be consumed; for men's hearts would neither sustain the intensity of its revelation, nor be able to mirror forth the radiance of its light. Dismayed and overpowered, they would cease to exist. 
-Baha'u'llah
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Gilberto,

At 10:29 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
Could you give examples of each to explain how they are different?

Justice is a virtue. It is defined (structurized) by Baha'u'llah, in one sense, 
as upheld by reward and punishment:

   O people of God!  That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is 
upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources 
of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for 
every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the 
Ministers of the House of Justice that they may act according to the needs and 
requirements of the time.  
-- Baha'u'llah, Bisharat, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p.27

Situations may arise in the moral contexts of different societies which require 
specific solutions; and the virtue of justice needs to be related to each 
socially constructed moral code. Social norms and values in the U.S. have 
historically been structurized around particular species of racism, sexism, and 
classism. Therefore, the virtue of justice would be tailored or applied 
differently to meet the requirements, and to solve the problems, of U.S. 
society than, I don't know, maybe of Peruvian society.

I  think one should be sensitive to the customs of the people around you. 
That's just adab. If belching in public and slurping your soup loudly is 
acceptable in a certain environment, go for it. If it isn't, you should 
refrain. But this isn't a moral issue.

But it *is* a moral issue (a folkway), as morality is generally defined in 
sociology. That is why I am making a distinction between morality (values and 
norms) and virtues (spiritual qualities taught by particular Prophets).

I don't think I have a aone-size-fits-all approach to behavior. I think there 
are different levels. I definitely agree that there is an aspect of human 
behavior and codes of acceptibility which fluctuates from time to time. But I 
would think that there is some core which has to do with basic moral 
principles and which has a divine origin.

If there is such a core, I would leave it up to God. I assume that God can 
change any possible core as He wills. From my perspective, I just look to 
what Baha'u'llah reveals.

So for example, the ultimate principle could be something like concern for 
the sanctity of human life and safety. 

Concern for the sanctity of life is just a name or signifier. One would need to 
look to the meaning behind that name, as taught by a given Prophet, and attempt 
to determine the meaning behind it.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Hi, Gilberto,

At 11:24 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
So would it be fair to say that the sinlessness is a non-falsifiable 
statement? You aren't saying that they conform to some prior moral 
principles, but that by definition, beecause they are the Manifestation they 
could do no wrong?

Yes, IMO, protection ('ismat) from sin is not ultimately falsifiable. One would 
need to be in an equal or superior position to the Prophet in order to falsify 
it.

On the other hand, I *could* decide that, based on my own will or conscience, a 
particular Prophet does not conform to sinlessness (as I understand it). 
However, I don't think that is a very good idea. ;-)

Just as earlier when we first started talking, you wouldn't exclude Crowley 
from being a Manifestation just on moral grounds.

I don't recall having used the term moral grounds, or anything like it, in my 
messages. You would need to show me what you have in mind. I said that, as a 
sociologist of religion and an individual, I would accept that Crowley (or 
anyone else) is whom he (or she) claims to be in the context of a particular 
paradigm. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-27 Thread Ahang Rabbani

Dear Firouz,

 I think this is a big challenge Baha'u'llah is inviting people to 
 produce a verse like what He is revealing.

The verse in the Tablet of Ahmad doesn't appear to me to be an invitation to
produce man-made verses.  He is stating that it's impossible for men to come up
with such verses, even if they poll all their smarts together, which could
rival His verses.  That is, His verses will always be superior to whatever men
produced.

It's the same idea as the staff of Moses.  The serpent it produced was superior
to all the others and swallowed them all.

Regards,
Ahang.






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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:13:23 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/26/2005 7:25:35 P.M. Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 I DID answer her question in the most reasonable way I know how. If
 you don't like that answer I'm not sure how to help you.
 Dear Gilberto, 
  
 If I understand your answer you are basically saying that having sex with a
 child of nine or ten is more of a legal than a moral issue. Is that right? 

No.  That is not what I'm saying. The underlying moral issue is that
people shouldn't harm and exploit one another.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-27 Thread Max Jasper

And further, it is an allegorical indication that man can never reach the
station of God.

|
| I think this is a big challenge Baha'u'llah is inviting people to
| produce a verse like what He is revealing.
|
|The verse in the Tablet of Ahmad doesn't appear to me to be an 
|invitation to produce man-made verses.  He is stating that 
|it's impossible for men to come up with such verses, even if 
|they poll all their smarts together, which could rival His 
|verses.  That is, His verses will always be superior to 
|whatever men produced.
|
|It's the same idea as the staff of Moses.  The serpent it 
|produced was superior to all the others and swallowed them all.
|


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Gilberto,

At 06:16 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
Ok, then part of the difficulty is that we are using words differently.

Yes.

Whether or not one belches in public is not a moral question.

As I said, I would call etiquette and all low-level social norms folkways. 
Norms and values, as I define them, are categories of morality.

I would definitely want to distinguish between morality (which could 
presumably be derrived from some basic moral/ethical principles) and mere 
politeness or ettiquette.

I am not sure what you mean by basic moral principles. Basic to whom? All 
moral principles and virtues, as I define them, are relative. Morals are 
relative to human groups; and virtues are relative to God.

I would think that this core has some kind of logic to it. It's not just 
inscrutable and mysterious without rhyme or reason.

IMO, logic cannot be a foundationism. What is logical in the context of one 
paradigm may be illogical in the context of another.

But don't you think everything is just a name?

No, I think that you and I exist. ;-) However, people is a name. 

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-27 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/27/2005 1:57:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  I remember long long time back when I was living in Dubaiwe had a 
  deepening class about Tablet of Ahmad, our Egyptian teacher explained it 
  to us this way.

Well, now that I compare it with the parallel verse in the Qur'anthe 
resemblance is certainly striking! 

warmest, Susan 
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Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:36:46 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 06:16 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
 Ok, then part of the difficulty is that we are using words differently.
 
 Yes.
 
 Whether or not one belches in public is not a moral question.
 
 As I said, I would call etiquette and all low-level social norms folkways. 
 Norms and values, as I define them, are categories of morality.

Gliberto:
But what makes one set of laws high-level and another low-level?
I'm not sure how you are drawing the line. I have the impression that
in your perspective there is not a clear fundamental difference
between ettiquette and morality because it is all relative.

Gilberto:
 I would definitely want to distinguish between morality (which could 
 presumably be derrived from some basic moral/ethical principles) and mere 
 politeness or ettiquette.
 
 I would think that this core [of moral values]  has some kind of logic to 
 it. It's not just inscrutable and mysterious without rhyme or reason.

Mark:
 IMO, logic cannot be a foundationism. What is logical in the context of one 
 paradigm may be illogical in the context of another.

Gilberto:
I'm speaking imprecisely. I don't think I mean that kind of logic. I
mean a different kind of reasoning process.

Gilberto:
Think about it this way. Even across various religions, different
groups of human beings tend to converge on similar sets of moral
rules. Golden rule. Lying is bad. Murdering is bad. Stealing is bad.
etc. To me that suggests that in spite of the differences, there is
some kind of objective notion of good. And even without the aid of a
prophet, human beings are able to make certain moral judgements. Yes,
there are differences, but there are also recurring similarities.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Gilberto,

At 06:14 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
But what makes one set of laws high-level and another low-level?

It is relative to the norms of that community. Mores are norms which, in a 
particular time and place, are punished (formally or informally) more severely 
than folkways. A more in one society may be a folkway in another; or a norm in 
one society may not be a norm at all in another society (such as wearing the 
hajab or some similar head covering).

I'm not sure how you are drawing the line. I have the impression that in your 
perspective there is not a clear fundamental difference between ettiquette 
and morality because it is all relative.

Like I said, as I define the term morality, it would include etiquette. 
Morality is relative to different societies and communities. Virtues are 
relative to God's Will.

I wrote:
IMO, logic cannot be a foundationism. What is logical in the context of one 
paradigm may be illogical in the context of another.

You replied:
I'm speaking imprecisely. I don't think I mean that kind of logic. I mean a 
different kind of reasoning process.

What kind of reasoning process?

Think about it this way. Even across various religions, different groups of 
human beings tend to converge on similar sets of moral rules. Golden rule. 
Lying is bad. Murdering is bad. Stealing is bad. etc. 

We may invent words or categories broad enough to encompass sets of activities 
across cultures. However, that doesn't tell us that those categories or names 
represent shared meaning.

For instance, in the U.S., some people, like the Quakers, are often pacifists 
regarding the Iraq War (or any war), and some of them describe war as 
institutionalized murder. Others, like many on the Christian right, support the 
Iraq War. However, when asked, most of these people would probably express 
their opposition toward murder. The same would apply to issues like abortion 
(whether it constitutes murder). In other words, murder does not signify 
precisely the same construction in the minds of these different sets of people. 

A civilian convicted of involuntary manslaughter might spend time in prison. 
However, a soldier, marine, sailor, or airman who kills someone due to friendly 
fire will not likely even be prosecuted (unless she or he was disobeying 
orders). There are all sorts of games we can play with words to justify actions 
which, in other situations, could get a person into deep trouble.

To me that suggests that in spite of the differences, there is some kind of 
objective notion of good.

I think it is more frequently the case that people will use words like good 
with the assumption, often incorrect, that others share the same understanding 
of it.

And even without the aid of a prophet, human beings are able to make certain 
moral judgements.

The influence of the teachings of various Prophets often extends well beyond 
their followers.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:53:07 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 You replied:
 I'm speaking imprecisely. I don't think I mean that kind of logic. I mean a 
 different kind of reasoning process.

Mark: 
 What kind of reasoning process?

Gilberto:
One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where
we think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind
of society that would result in. It's hard for me to articulate but
one model would be the traffic laws. The goal is to have a society
where people can travel safely on the roads. You want to minimaize
harm to other human beings. so the basic value would be something like
safety or the sanctity of human life. And so as a result, speed limits
are enforced, we drive on one side of the road and not the other, etc.

Gilberto:
 Think about it this way. Even across various religions, different groups of 
 human beings tend to converge on similar sets of moral rules. Golden rule. 
 Lying is bad. Murdering is bad. Stealing is bad. etc.

Mark:
 We may invent words or categories broad enough to encompass sets of 
 activities across cultures. However, that doesn't tell us that those 
 categories or names represent shared meaning.

Gilberto:
Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain
kinds of actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences.


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-27 Thread Elaine Crowell

Dear Susan,
I came to this conclusion after reading several online accounts of British activity in the middle east subsequent to WW1. I read that Lawrence of Arabia was deeply involved in the Arab revolt against the Ottoman hegemony instigated by Sharif Hussein bin Ali .  Sharif
Hussein had been promised a independent Arab state/kingdom by the British in return for instigating the revolt as indicated by the Hussein-MacMahon correspondence. However, the Sykes-Picot Agreement, divided the area into zones of permanent colonial influence. I've also read that  Ibn Sa'ud had access to Wahhabi shock troops and  since  Sharif Hussein lacked the kind of military support the British thought was necessary to manage the peninsula effectively, British support was withdrawn from Hashimite rule in Arabia. Among my sources are http://www.wahhabism-info.com/Essay/toc.htm ,  The Two Faces of Islam by Stephan Schwartz. and  A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourami.

I know that things were far more complicated than my simple assessment and would appreciate any insights into this matter from yourself. or any other. I did take a course in Middle Eastern History a long time ago and have been fascinated by the rise and collapse of Islamic Civilization for many years.
Sincerely,
Elainna
 
Dear Elainna,
 
Where does your information that the British favoured Ibn Sa'ud over the Hashimites come from?
 
warmest, Susan


 
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Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Gilberto,

I wrote:
What kind of reasoning process?

You replied:
One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we think 
about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of society that 
would result in.

A thought experiment.

Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of 
actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences.

I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the top 
of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case. 
When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative for 
customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would happen if a 
customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany?

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-27 Thread JS

Hi Iskandar,

I think you are misunderstanding Gilberto and his intentions. I do not think he is saying that Baha'is don't take morality seriously, so there is no need for an apology. Gilberto is stating the Islamic stance on the issue, which is different from the Baha'i view. I am positive he is aware that Baha'is take morality seriously.
		Do you Yahoo!? 
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:22 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Iskandar,
  
 I think you are misunderstanding Gilberto and his intentions.  I do not
 think he is saying that Baha'is don't take morality seriously, so there is
 no need for an apology.  Gilberto is stating the Islamic stance on the
 issue, which is different from the Baha'i view.  I am positive he is aware
 that Baha'is take morality seriously.

Thanks,

I'm definitely not trying to say Bahais are less moral in their
behavior than anyone else.
I'm just trying to express disagreement with moral relativism.

Peace

Gilberto



My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:49:29 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
. 

 A girl of 8, 9, or 10 years of age who has had her menses is still a girl,
 not a woman. From around 13 to about 18-19 years of age, she is called a
 teenager. Past nineteen, she can be called a woman (or young woman).

Gilberto:
That's arbitrary. The concept of teenager or more precisely
adolescent is a relatively new one in human history. Probably
because in technical societies people need alot more training and
education before they are reasonably able to make a living and provide
for a family. In the past, people could pick up a trade from their
family and could make a living a lot earlier.


 Saying that a 9-year old post-pubescent female is a young woman is so
 Orwellian newspeak.

Gilberto:
Puberty is at least a very natural dividing line. Virtually any other
one is going to be arbitrary. To just say a girl becomes a woman at 15
even though no particular physical, mental or spiritual change happens
at 15 is random. Its understandable that that's where Bahais draw the
line and if you want to do that, I'm not objecting. But you have no
place to get all offended if other people draw the line somewhere
else.


 Yes, my understanding is that there are certain eternal fundamental
 verities and basic truths that are found in all Dispensations and
 moral/ethical orders. For instance, I'd guess that in all cultures,
 religions, civilizations, etc. ideas/ideals such as kindness, justice,
 compassion, chastity, decency, honesty, modesty, rectitude of conduct,
 courage, truthfullness, trustworthiness, etc., etc. are commended and
 commanded.

Gilberto:
Yes, we agree to that at least.

 The other thing is that in real life, sometimes the
 difficult and important decisions are not between a vice or a virtue but
 between competing virtues.

Yes, I see that.

 How much justice is mercy and how much justice
 is unmerciful, for example. Yes, truthfullness is good. But where is the
 line between truthfulness and lying? Does taqiyyih constitute lying? 

Sure. I think alot of those sorts of questions depend more on the
exact specifics of a given situation. For me, that's the best way to
think of them rather than just depending on the date or the
dispensation.

And the religions give us rules and guidelines and help in making
those decisions.

 The
 Prophet Abraham said Sarah was His sister at one point. At some point He
 said He would worship stars, then later He said He would worship the moon,
 later He said He would worship the sun. Finally, He said He would worship
 God the Creator of heaven and earth. Was He lying at some point?

I think I see the point but I would be really hesitant about using
this as an example because of what you possibly  seem to be suggesting
about Abraham's behavior and character.

 
 You haven't answered Susan's question yet, dear Gilberto.
 

I don't think you should be calling me dear. And yes, I already
answered Susan's question and the answer appears below. Maybe you
don't like my answer. Maybe you don't understand my answer. But I
certainly have given one.

Peace

Gilberto



 Good wishes,
 Iskandar
 
 On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
 
  On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:52:59 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I can't see your answer to Susan's question. You basically made a speech
   against exploitation, etc.
 
  I DID answer her question in the most reasonable way I know how. If
  you don't like that answer I'm not sure how to help you.
 
  Already from the beginning of this whole discussion I had said I'd
  prefer to talk about these issues with a different kind of example
  because the topic tends to make people emotional and sensitive. I
  guess I should have known better.
 
  The way I see it there is a basic problem which Jews, Christians,
  Muslims and Bahais living in modern times have. How do we come to
  terms with the fact that individuals who are prophets and messengers
  or otherwise examplary, may have made comments or commited actions
  which might have the appearance or suggestion of immorality when
  viewed from modern secular lenses.
 
  In my experience, the answer I've gotten most often from Bahais
  seems to suggest that basic ethical principles and values change over
  time like hemlines. Personally I find that answer REALLY
  unsatisfactory beceause it doesn't seem to take morality seriously.
 
  I would prefer to think that basic moral principles should have more
  staying power.
 
  If that means arguing that certain actions done in the past make sense
  in terms of more fundamental moral principles, so be it.
 
 
   Basically, dear Gilberto, you can't call a 9-year old female (who has had
   her menses) a woman or young woman in front of a judge or a court of
   law in most any place nowadays (well, maybe with the exception of Saudi
   Arabia, etc.)
 
  Nevertheless, in many human cultures that is when adulthood begins.
  And then I asked

Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:41:05 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 I wrote:
 What kind of reasoning process?
 
 You replied:
 One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we 
 think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of 
 society that would result in.
 
 A thought experiment.

or even trial and error, sure.

Gilberto:
 Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of 
 actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences.

Mark:
 I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the 
 top of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the 
 case. When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative 
 for customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would 
 happen if a customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany?

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you mean by that in that would not be the case.
You are the one hung up on the names now. I wouldn't assume that
begging for money in Zeire is the same as begging for money in
Germany. And perhaps you could say that in Zaire customs officials
occurs frequently and went on unpunished. I'm not sure if that makes
it normative.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:03:37 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition
 of woman are you using?
 
 Dear Gilberto,
 
 So do you think it would be okay today if a mature man married and had
 intercourse with a ten year old girl so long as she had had her menses?
 
I don't think that's the only consideration in a relationship. People
aren't just biological organs with stopwatches attached to them. I
think a deeper criteria is that there be a loving non-exploitative
commited relationship between the people who are married. There are
some young people are precocious and can handle alot of things. There
are some older people who are immature and can't. Ultimately age is
just a number.

But at the same time I certainly am in favor of efforts to protect
children from exploitation. And I think a totally reasonable way to
protect children in 2005 is to pass statutory rape laws, with certain
age cut-offs even though the exact numbers might be somewhat
arbitrary.

Peace

Gilberto



My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:26:59 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In a message dated 1/26/2005 2:31:41 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Which social laws? I don't think the Bible or the Quran given minimum
 ages for marriage. Like I said elsewhere its not a question of
 absolute morality. The ordinary laws passed by current legislative
 bodies are certainly subject to change and aren't meant to last
 forever.

 Exactly. And, of course, neither are the religious social laws which are,
 after all the precursors of civil law in the first place.
  

This is going in circles. I would want to make a distinction between
the laws which people make up and the ones which God gives. I
understand that Bahais disagree. This is nothing new.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:39:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This is going in circles. I would want to make a distinction betweenthe laws which people make up and the ones which God gives. Iunderstand that Bahais disagree. This is nothing new.
People make laws modeled upon the ethical and religious tradition of their nation. It is indeed, nothing new.

Scott
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/26/2005 7:25:27 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't think you should talk to me like that. This is part of why Iwould rather use a more neutral example. I have absolutely no interestin marrying a nine-year old girl and as I said in my answer, I have noobjections to the statutory rape laws and I'm not interested inrepealing them.
No one thinks you are, we are discussing the social laws of marriage and coming of age. If you like, forget the example of Ashia and Muhammed. The issue of measuring adulthood by menses or nocturnal emission is a method well adapted to small communities. When you speak of nations of millions, or tens of millions or hundreds of millions, that standard is no longer useful.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Elaine Crowell


That is true. However The house of Sa'ud entered into an alliance with 
the Wahhabis and subsequent to  attaining control of Arabia, they 
exported Wahhabism through the funding of religious  schools throughout 
the middle East. One also might note British encouragement of the sect 
as well as by favouring  Ibn Sa'ud over the Sharif of Mecca. While this 
is pure speculation, it is possible if Britain had defended the 
Hashimites in the holy Places the Arabian Peninsula would probably have 
developed modern political institutions. As it is Wahhabism is the 
dominant religious influence in Saudi Arabia and is still spreading the 
fundamentalist teachings of Abdul-Wahab.
Warm Wishes,
Elainna

And Abdul-Wahab's views were rejected and criticized by the more
tolerant traditional mainstream.
Peace
Gilberto
My people are hydroponic
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The Doors are open at
Elainna's New Place http://elainna.org
The Wild Side http://elainnas-wild-side.net
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RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread louise mchenry


-
 
 Marriages then were rarely a matter of simple choice
 no matter what age you
 were, but by all accounts it was a happy marriage.
 
Dear Susan, 

I realise that. I said this because she might not at
all have been unwilling to marry Muhammad, maybe have
even wished for it. It is not usual that a person at 9
or 10 have sound judgements on matters like choosing a
marriage partner, but it is not unheard of. Some
people, very few, have an insight and understanding
far beyond their years. I am not saying that Aisha
had, but  rather I wanted to put that possibility
forward. 

I do not think really that she had a big say in the
matter, though it is not unthinkable that she was
consulted. After all, when the Light of a
Manifestation appears, some people are so touched by
it that old customs and habits are completely
forgotten, so it may be possible that contrary to
tradition and custom, in this case Aisha was consulted
and that she was very insightful and advanced for her
years and knew exactly what she was doing. 

I do not think it very likely, but it is a
possibility. 

much love, 

janine




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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 08:01 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
The original point was how do you evaluate prophets and think about 
sinlessness. I would say that there is a certain minimal core morality which 
is more fundamental and you could in principle use that the judge prophets. 
Mark seemed to say it was reversed and that within their dispensation 
prophets could do anything and almost by definition it would be correct. 

To my understanding, the sinlessness of the Prophets is called the Most Great 
Infallibility (ismat-i-kubraa). Whatever virtues the Prophets reveal to 
humanity constitute the divine standard of sinlessness. There is no sinlessness 
(or virtue) apart from God's manifested Will. For Baha'is, in my view, that 
sinlessness has been embodied in a human being, `Abdu'l-Baha.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:20:03 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,

 There is, IMO, a difference between virtues, which are divine 
 structurizations, and morals (norms and values), which are human 
 structurizations.  Through the Will of God (virtues) or through the wills of 
 humans in groups (morals), both can change over time and vary geographically 
 or situationally.

Could you give examples of each to explain how they are different?
 
 The fact that virtues may be relative to God's Will does not indicate a 
 failure to take them seriously. Likewise, people must be sensitive to the 
 norms and values in different cultures and, for Baha'is, to find ways of 
 contextualizing the virtues revealed in the Baha'i Sacred Texts into the 
 moral codes (values and norms) of the societies in which they live.

Gilberto:
I  think one should be sensitive to the customs of the people around
you. That's just adab. If belching in public and slurping your soup
loudly is acceptable in a certain environment, go for it. If it isn't,
you should refrain. But this isn't a moral issue.

 
 This relativist approach respects both the prerogatives of God and the 
 differences between societies and cultures. On the other hand, a timeless, 
 one- size-fits-all approach to human behavior turns virtues and morals into 
 ritualized 
 rrelevances.

I don't think I have a aone-size-fits-all approach to behavior. I
think there are different levels. I definitely agree that there is an
aspect of human behavior and codes of acceptibility which fluctuates
from time to time.  But I would think that there is some core which
has to do with basic moral principles and which has a divine origin.
So for example, the ultimate principle could be something like concern
for the sanctity of human life and safety. And in some societies that
gets implemented by having everyone drive on the right side of the
road. In other societies it gets implemented by having everyone drive
on the left side.


Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:25:25 -0800, Elaine Crowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 That is true. However The house of Sa'ud entered into an alliance with
 the Wahhabis and subsequent to  attaining control of Arabia, they
 exported Wahhabism through the funding of religious  schools throughout
 the middle East. One also might note British encouragement of the sect
 as well as by favouring  Ibn Sa'ud over the Sharif of Mecca. While this
 is pure speculation, it is possible if Britain had defended the
 Hashimites in the holy Places the Arabian Peninsula would probably have
 developed modern political institutions. As it is Wahhabism is the
 dominant religious influence in Saudi Arabia and is still spreading the
 fundamentalist teachings of Abdul-Wahab.


Yes. And Muslims know that. And many see it as a problem and do what
they can to promote more traditional understandings.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:29:01 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 Mark seemed to say it was reversed and that within their dispensation
 prophets could do anything and almost by definition it would be correct.
 
 
 --  Hi Gilberto,  I think the idea is based on the following verses of
 Baha'u'llah, among others.  This idea - that one can come up with a set of
 morals or a standard to weight or measure the Prophets - appears to be at
 odd with these verses.  Please share with us how you read these verses.:
 
 The Kitab-i-Aqdas verse 99-  
 Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current
 amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst
 men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the
 earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be
 tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it.
 

It seems like you are reading it correctly. I just don't think I would
agree with it. The Quran actually invites people to examine itself for
contradictions. Dares people to try to come up with verses like it. In
other places the Quran also calls itself the Criterion but I don't
know of a place where it declares itself immune from criticism.

This is a slight digression but there is a book by a convert to Islam
named Jeffery Lang named Even Angels Ask its an allusion to the
Quranic story of the creation of Adam when God announced he was going
to make human beings.

[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in
the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as
shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise
and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

And Lang points out that from the Islamic perspective angels always do
what they are told and are sinless. And the conclusion is that even
questioning God's wisdom the way they do here is therefore not a sin
in Islam.


Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:38:28 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 08:01 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
 The original point was how do you evaluate prophets and think about 
 sinlessness. I would say that there is a certain minimal core morality 
 which is more fundamental and you could in principle use that the judge 
 prophets. Mark seemed to say it was reversed and that within their 
 dispensation prophets could do anything and almost by definition it would 
 be correct.
 
 To my understanding, the sinlessness of the Prophets is called the Most Great 
 Infallibility (ismat-i-kubraa). Whatever virtues the Prophets reveal to 
 humanity constitute the divine standard of sinlessness. There is no 
 sinlessness (or virtue) apart from God's manifested Will. For Baha'is, in my 
 view, that sinlessness has been embodied in a human being, `Abdu'l-Baha.

So would it be fair to say that the sinlessness is a non-falsifiable
statement? You aren't saying that they conform to some prior moral
principles, but that by definition, beecause they are the
Manifestation they could do no wrong?

Just as earlier when we first started talking, you wouldn't exclude
Crowley from being a Manifestation just on moral grounds.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Firouz Anaraki

Gilberto addressing Mark:
It seems like you are reading it correctly. I just don't think I would
agree with it. The Quran actually invites people to examine itself for
contradictions. Dares people to try to come up with verses like it. In
other places the Quran also calls itself the Criterion but I don't
know of a place where it declares itself immune from criticism.
Firouz:
Baha'u'llah also challenges people to come up a verse like what Baha'u'llah 
has revealed and goes further and allows them to assist each other:

 O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof hath ye believed in God? 
Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be 
able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another.

I think this is a big challenge Baha'u'llah is inviting people to produce a 
verse like what He is revealing.

Regards,
Firouz

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:30:04 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto addressing Mark:
  It seems like you are reading it correctly. I just don't think I would
  agree with it. The Quran actually invites people to examine itself for
  contradictions. Dares people to try to come up with verses like it. In
  other places the Quran also calls itself the Criterion but I don't
  know of a place where it declares itself immune from criticism.
 
 Firouz:
 
 Baha'u'llah also challenges people to come up a verse like what Baha'u'llah
 has revealed and goes further and allows them to assist each other:
 

Yeah. As I was wriiting I started to think about that and thought I
should maybe rephrase the above since the Bahai writings basically
repeat the challenge of the Quran.


[2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to
Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses
besides Allah if you are truthful.

[11.13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged
chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are
truthful.


[52.33] Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.
[52.34] Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful.


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/26/2005 11:30:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Baha'u'llah also challenges people to come up a verse like what 
  Baha'u'llah has revealed and goes further and allows them to assist each 
  other:" O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof hath ye 
  believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.Nay, by 
  the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to 
  do this, even should they combine to assist one 
another."

Dear Firouz, 

I never read that passage that way. I thought He was asking them to come up 
with proof they believed in God, not come up with better verses. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:21:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  One also might note British encouragement of the sect as well as by 
  favouring Ibn Sa'ud over the Sharif of Mecca. 
  
  Dear Elainna, 
  
  Where does your information that the British favoured Ibn Sa'ud over the 
  Hashimites come from? 
  
  warmest, Susan 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-26 Thread Firouz Anaraki





Dear Firouz, 

I never read that passage that way. I thought He was asking them to come up 
with proof they believed in God, not come up with better verses. 

warmest, Susan 

Dear Susan,

I remember long long time back when I was living in Dubaiwe had a 
deepening class about Tablet of Ahmad, our Egyptian teacher explained it 
to us this way. Actually he emphasized that in Tablet of Ahmad Baha'u'llah goes 
one step further than Quran and allows people to assist one another to produce a 
verse like His. To me it makes lots of sense and the followingfrom Epistle 
to the Son of the Wolf is also saying something similar.

`O ye peoples of the earth! Turn yourselves towards Him Who hath turned 
towards you. He, verily, is the Face of God amongst you, and His Testimony and 
His Guide unto you. He hath come to you with signs which none can produce.' The 
voice of the Burning Bush is raised in the midmost heart of the world, and the 
Holy Spirit calleth aloud among the nations: `Lo, the Desired One is come with 
manifest dominion!'
regards,
Firouz

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Scott,

At 08:40 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
Mark seems to have come into the faith the same way I did, through the 
written words of Baha`u'llah. When truth sings in your heart, you are carried 
away. Baha`u'llah's words reveal His character. Abdu'l Baha's words reveal 
Baha`u'llah's character. That is the necessary outcome when one finds the 
truth spoken by an individual.

Actually, no. I did not read any of Baha'u'llah's Writings before I declared. 
I had only read portions of Jessica Gaver's introductory book (which I found at 
Macy's Dept. Store). When I told the late Counsellor, Hedi Ahmadiyya, that 
story, he said it was the first good thing he ever heard coming out of 
Jessica's book! 

I later met Jessica (just once) at the old NYC Baha'i Center and thanked her 
for her book. She was a not so active member of that community. Soon after, she 
left the Baha'i Faith and became a pentecostal.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Hi, Susan,

At 08:11 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
I didn't see any big problem with that book aside from the fact it had never 
gone through review.

Gaver imported a lot of popular Baha'isms, urban legends, or 
kitab-i-hearsays, into the book. I would need to go back and find them. 
However, overall, I liked the spirit of the book. It convinced me to become a 
Baha'i - even without reading most of it.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:29:38 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 09:25 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
 I would probably prefer to discuss this point with an issue that wasn't so 
 emotionally charged because because it can be sensitive for alot of folks. 
 But I would say, no. I think that tastes and expectations can change over 
 the years, norms of behavior. But that doesn't make them moral issues, no.

 
 If an adult marrying a child in 21st c. Kansas (or NYC) is not a moral issue, 
 then  what *is* a moral issue?

I'm not certain how to articulate it but I think that the rules of
morality would be more or less deducible from certain basic principles
or axioms through some kind of moral reasoning process. So for
example,  actually harming and abusing a child (or anyone else) is
definitely a moral issue. But if its not a case of abused and if you
are just talking about people getting married at ages atypical for
21st century Kansas, I don't think that's a moral question.

.
 
 However, perhaps you mean something different by morality than myself. I am 
 using the term with its usual sociological definition (esp. from Emile 
 Durkheim). In that context, morality is a neutral, culturally relative 
 concept which understands morals as norms and values.

Gilberto:
So what is the difference between ettiquette and morality?

Gilberto:
 I think there is a difference between saying something is immoral and 
 saying that something is popularly perceived to be wrong or disgusting.

Mark:
 I suppose you regard morality as an unchangeable absolute.

Gilberto:
Something like that. I would want to be sensitive to the specific
nature of a situation and realize that there are extremes and
exceptions. I ithink I'm kind of a pragmatist. And I don't necessarily
think that all the morally relevant factors will be adequately
captured by a verbal formulation (like the 10 commandments of Moses or
the 7 Noachide commandments) and in any given situation there might be
more than one moral choice. But I don't consider myself a moral
relativist.

 To me, morality is always relative, whether to a particular
Revelation or culture. The first expresses God's standards, which
change. The second involves human standards, which both change and
vary from place to place.
 
 Maybe a decent example would be the kind of stuff people do on Fear Factor. 
 It's basically a game show where part of the competition might include 
 dares to eat some kind of disgusting substance. Even though most people are 
 on a very visceral level disgusted by the act of eating bugs or horse 
 intestine or whatever, it's not clear that its a moral question.
 
 Well, now I suppose I do not understand you at all. Are you saying that 
 Muhammad's marriage to Khadija, while disgusting by contemporary standards, 
 would not be immoral?

Wow, that's the first time I've heard anyone call Muhammad's marriage
to Khadija disgusting. Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher don't look THAT
bad. And How Stella got her Groove Back was more popular than
contraversial.

You probably meant Aishah.

Here is the best article piece I've seen discussing the issue:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html


 
 So, if someone unearthed persuasive evidence which proved that Bahaullah 
 had been involved in certain kinds of unsavory and conventionally immoral 
 behavior it wouldn't play a role in or affect whether you believed in him?

 I would hope not.

Really? Why not? What if it turned out that the Bahai Writings
actually came from someone like Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahmer ? And
you thought the writings were pretty but they came from a serial
killer/serial rapist. Could a person like that really be a
Manifestation?

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/25/2005 8:37:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gaver imported a lot of popular "Baha'isms," urban legends, or 
  "kitab-i-hearsays," into the book. 

Dear Mark, 

I suppose at the time I read that book I took those things for granted. 


warmest, Susan 
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/25/2005 8:33:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
However, 
  some other things have been much greater concerns to me recently, especially 
  Ruhi.

Well, if it is any comfort, Baha'u'llah didn't do that. 
;-}
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RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Susan,

At 08:11 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
Aisha, not Khadija.

Yep. ;-)

I think of circumstances where it might for me. For instance if Baha'u'llah 
had authorized anything similiar to the massacre of the Banu Qurayza I doubt 
if I could recognize Him as having the remedy we need for this day.

It would be of concern to me, too. However, some other things have been much 
greater concerns to me recently, especially Ruhi.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread louise mchenry

In a way.

my as to date not completely formed thinking goes along the lines that God is Reality.That compared to God some things have no Reality at all. Yet they do have a reality, for example a cat has a certain reality of its own, and when I am hungry it is a reality of its own as well.
But compared to God there is not much of a reality there. (that is the best I can do in explaining).

More like all things emanate from God, the world of phenomena that is. But that there is much we humans do not yet know of Reality and are discovering of Reality. Hence we should not weigh the book with such standards and sciences as are current among us, cause these are not enough, not insightful enough.

may wisdom and love shine on your path

janine[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:21:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
that each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what goodness is?

Dear Janine,

Isn't that what this passage implies?

"O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it."

warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Gilberto,

At 08:42 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
But if its not a case of abused and if you are just talking about people 
getting married at ages atypical for 21st century Kansas, I don't think 
that's a moral question.

I think it would clearly be a moral issue to most Americans for an adult to 
marry a prepubescent child - even without immediately consummating the marriage.

So what is the difference between ettiquette and morality?

Using common sociological terminology, etiquette would fall under what William 
Graham Sumner called folkways (folk norms). In all contemporary Western 
societies, marrying a prepubescent child would be a more violation.

Something like that. I would want to be sensitive to the specific nature of a 
situation and realize that there are extremes and exceptions. I ithink I'm 
kind of a pragmatist.

So, if you think that morality is absolute, and that the Prophet Muhammad 
exemplified it, you believe it would be acceptable for an American to marry a 
prepubescent child???

But I don't consider myself a moral relativist.

Based on what you wrote, I would not consider you one either. You appear to be 
a moral absolutist. The difference is that your moral standard is, um, 
different.

You probably meant Aishah.

Yes, I did.

Here is the best article piece I've seen discussing the issue:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

However, Gilberto, this writer is making **my** point about cultural, or 
historical, relativism, which you appear to dismiss. For instance:

It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the 
marriage of cAishah and Muhammad took place when the former had reached puberty 
and that this was normal at the time. 

Really? Why not? What if it turned out that the Bahai Writings actually came 
from someone like Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahmer ?

I said, I hope not. That is the most I can determine. No one can really know 
for sure how she or he would react under such circumstances.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Susan,

At 08:46 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
Well, if it is any comfort, Baha'u'llah didn't do that. ;-} 

I suppose we can all ask Him about it in the next world.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Gilberto,

At 10:09 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
That she was pre-pubescent is an assumption on your part. There are 
indications otherwise.

I know the issue is not decided. However, the author of the article you 
referenced before on the subject said that, presently, the evidence *did* 
support that she was 9 years old. 

To me, however, it doesn't matter either way, but I am a moral relativist. ;-)

And according to the commentaries he at least waited till after puberty.

I don't see how that matters. What would happen in most parts of the U.S. if a 
grown man wanted to marry an 11- or 12-year-old girl? How would the majority of 
people likely respond?

So what is the difference between a folkway and a more?

On a scale, a folkway is a relatively unimportant norm (like most etiquette), 
while a more is a more important norm (like the subject we are discussing would 
be in the U.S.). All norms, or rules of social conduct, are socially 
constructed (as are the social controls and punishments which may accompany 
their violation).

It is certainly weird and atypical, but if I could be convinced that their 
intentions didn't involve any hint that they would exploit the child I 
wouldn't have a moral objection to them being betrothed.

However, it was *not* weird and atypical in 7th-century Arabia.

So Squires is obviously saying there is an absolute morality on the one hand 
and cultural norms on the other. And furthermore, he says that Christians who 
seem to find the young marriage of Aishah morally objectionable are confusing 
the latter for the former.

If the writer is advocating moral absolutism, I would disagree with him, too.

But what I don't understand is why that would even be your hope. Why wouldn't 
the character of the messenger  be an issue?

Because, in principle, I don't think that a Prophet is required to conform to 
human standards of conduct.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.


I'm saying that when a 53-year old male marries a 20-30 year old female,
he has married a young woman, and when he marries a female who is
barely 18 he then has married a teenager. When a 53-year old male
marries a female who has just barely tuned 9 lunar years, it is not
accurate to say that he married a young woman, Gilberto. 

The thing is, dear Gilberto, that if a 50-year old male now decides to
consummate a marriage with a ten-year old girl he cannot do that in
2005 in most any place now. He cannot argue that he has her consent and
her parents' consent, that she is happy with it, that she is
physically/emotionally mature, that she has had her menses, etc., etc.
He just can't call it marriage.

Since we are talking about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, I'd prefer not to
comment on the morality (or lack thereof) of this specific issue. 

Regards, 
Iskandar

Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  
  I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more
 accurate
  term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older
 than her.
 
 She is what she is whether she is married or not.
 
  She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry
 again ever.
 
 So what are you ultimately trying to say?
 
 Peace
 
 Gilberto
 
 
  
  Regards,
  Iskandar
  
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread JS



I do not take all of the comments here about the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha asevidencethat Muhammad was evil or had ill intentions. 
As our society changes, there is a need to renew the Revelation of God, which is, after all, written forUS inOUR language based onOUR society.As our society changes, God's RevelationTO USchanges, while God's Revelation is in essence always One.
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Re: The Bab's wife (was: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson)

2005-01-25 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/25/2005 5:56:38 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Why, specifically, was it a violation of the Bab's honor? I 
  can see
  how it was a violation of the wife's honor; it appears she was 
  simply
  passed around like a piece of furniture, none of the men seemed 
  interested in what she wanted. So, I see the dishonor to the 
  woman.
  But what is the dishonor to the Bab?

Dear Tim,

I can see you don't think like a Middle Eastern male. ;-}

warmest, Susan 
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Gilberto Simpson

The sources indicate that the nikah didn't occur until after puberty.
In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition
of woman are you using?

Peace

Gilberto




On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:59:53 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I'm saying that when a 53-year old male marries a 20-30 year old female,
 he has married a young woman, and when he marries a female who is
 barely 18 he then has married a teenager. When a 53-year old male
 marries a female who has just barely tuned 9 lunar years, it is not
 accurate to say that he married a young woman, Gilberto.
 
 The thing is, dear Gilberto, that if a 50-year old male now decides to
 consummate a marriage with a ten-year old girl he cannot do that in
 2005 in most any place now. He cannot argue that he has her consent and
 her parents' consent, that she is happy with it, that she is
 physically/emotionally mature, that she has had her menses, etc., etc.
 He just can't call it marriage.
 
 Since we are talking about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, I'd prefer not to
 comment on the morality (or lack thereof) of this specific issue.
 
 Regards,
 Iskandar
 
 Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
   
   I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more
  accurate
   term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older
  than her.
 
  She is what she is whether she is married or not.
 
   She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry
  again ever.
 
  So what are you ultimately trying to say?
 
  Peace
 
  Gilberto
 
 
 
   Regards,
   Iskandar
  
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-- 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread louise mchenry

yep I agree with you Gilberto. 

It could be that at a young age this woman recognised
the purity and specialness of the Prophet and was
therefore very willing to marry Him. 

Times and habits and way of thinking and mores were
completely different then. Plus, the Prophet was a
very special person. 

with love, 

janine
--- Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 The sources indicate that the nikah didn't occur
 until after puberty.
 In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult.
 What other definition
 of woman are you using?
 
 Peace
 
 Gilberto
 
 
 
 
 On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:59:53 -0500 (EST), Iskandar
 Hai, M.D.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  I'm saying that when a 53-year old male marries a
 20-30 year old female,
  he has married a young woman, and when he
 marries a female who is
  barely 18 he then has married a teenager. When a
 53-year old male
  marries a female who has just barely tuned 9
 lunar years, it is not
  accurate to say that he married a young woman,
 Gilberto.
  
  The thing is, dear Gilberto, that if a 50-year old
 male now decides to
  consummate a marriage with a ten-year old girl
 he cannot do that in
  2005 in most any place now. He cannot argue that
 he has her consent and
  her parents' consent, that she is happy with it,
 that she is
  physically/emotionally mature, that she has had
 her menses, etc., etc.
  He just can't call it marriage.
  
  Since we are talking about the Prophet Muhammad
 PBUH, I'd prefer not to
  comment on the morality (or lack thereof) of this
 specific issue.
  
  Regards,
  Iskandar
  
  Quoting Gilberto Simpson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  

I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years
 of age is a more
   accurate
term than young woman when she marries a
 person 50 years older
   than her.
  
   She is what she is whether she is married or
 not.
  
She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and
 could not marry
   again ever.
  
   So what are you ultimately trying to say?
  
   Peace
  
   Gilberto
  
  
  
Regards,
Iskandar
   
   
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RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Susan Maneck

In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition
of woman are you using?

Dear Gilberto,

So do you think it would be okay today if a mature man married and had
intercourse with a ten year old girl so long as she had had her menses?

warmest, Susan


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-25 Thread Firouz Anaraki

Janine:
It could be that at a young age this woman recognised
the purity and specialness of the Prophet and was
therefore very willing to marry Him.
Should the Prophet marry any girl (no matter what age) who would like to get 
married to Him?

regards,
Firouz

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Re: Arson

Hi Mark, 

I am a bit confused as how you mean this. Do you mean to say that discussions of this sort assume that there is something called goodness in people, do you mean to say that goodness changes with each new Manifestation, that each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what goodness is? 

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IMO, the problem with discussions of this sort is that they assume there is something called "goodness" apart from the taxonomies provided by the Prophet in each Dispensation.Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public -
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Re: Arson

2005-01-24 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Janine,

At 07:21 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
I am a bit confused as how you mean this. Do you mean to say that discussions 
of this sort assume that there is something called goodness in people, do you 
mean to say that goodness changes with each new Manifestation, that each new 
Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what goodness 
is? 

I am saying that goodness (or badness) is simply a name to signify what a 
particular Prophet, group, or ordinary individual regards as being good (or 
bad).

I don't know whether goodness *always* changes with each new Dispensation, 
though I imagine it does (at least with respect to social ordinances), but it 
is certainly God's prerogative to categorize behaviors previously defined to be 
bad as good and vice-versa. 

On the other hand, a extreme Platonist (idealist realist) might contend that 
goodness is a part of God's nature. Therefore, she or he might presume it can 
never be altered.

In other words, if Muhammad makes one ethical pronouncement and Baha'u'llah 
makes another, each of them, applying the principle of progressive Revelation, 
would be *good relative to that Prophet's paradigm. Similarly, human standards 
of goodness (values) can only be evaluated in juxtaposition to specific 
cultures and societies (cultural relativism).

Progressive Revelation, which is the divine standard of goodness, provides 
relative truth across time, within Dispensations, and in the life cycles of 
particular societies, groups, and individuals.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Arson

In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:33:48 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But that's not even the main issue. The thing I'm having troubleseeing from your perspective is why God would have mandated thepunishment to begin with? Even though I disagree with many of thethings you mentioned in your list, not one of them would be any lesstrue before 1844.
Because then it was appropriate to mark the habitual thief in a way that was easy to spot.
Punishment for theft nowadays in the west is imprisonment with the hope that the perpetrator can be rehabilitated. Rehabilitation would be more difficult if he was branded or mutilated for his crime.

That's western perspective.

Baha`i perspective is that the Islamic punishment suited the time and place. It doesnot suit THIS time and place because God has altered it. If that's unconvincing, who said you had to be convinced? This is a discussion, how often will discussion lead to convincing those who hold contrary positions?

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:38:50 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But if "good" is worth calling "good" then shouldn't it be independentof the prophet?
God is the Source of All BOunty. The manifestation is the Revealer of God's Bounty.
I avoid the term Prophet because I do not think the English meaning and the Arabic meaning are really the same. The Messiah, The Promised One, the Friend of God, He Who Saw God, the Enlightened One is far more than a prophet.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Arson

2005-01-24 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Gilberto,

At 08:38 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
But if good is worth calling good then shouldn't it be independent of the 
prophet?

I am not sure how something could be worth calling good. I have not been a 
neo-Platonist for about 5 or 6 years, so I don't see *goodness* as a quality 
detached from the process of naming by a particular Prophet. Whatever Moses, 
Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, etc. signified as being good was 
good in the contexts of their Revelations.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Arson





In a message dated 1/15/2005 12:54:24 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It seems 
  that the harshness of this punishment is, at least in part, relatedto and 
  intended to be a deterrent to acts such as the wholesale genocidalburning 
  of homes  villages

Dear Patti, 

That's possible, but in cities like Constantinople at the time of 
Baha'u'llah a simple act of arson could have catastrophic consequences. As I 
recall much of the city burnt one year. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Arson

Hi Susan,

do you mean to say that Baha'u'llah revealed laws which are meant to last about 1000 years because of certain conditions which were surely temporary conditions in the countries He resided in?

I mean it is possible God doeth what He willeth. yet that does not really make sense to me. And fuels the side of me which thinks that organised religion is a stupid idea anyway. ;o)

much love,

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 1/15/2005 12:54:24 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It seems that the harshness of this punishment is, at least in part, relatedto and intended to be a deterrent to acts such as the wholesale genocidalburning of homes villages

Dear Patti,

That's possible, but in cities like Constantinople at the time of Baha'u'llah a simple act of arson could have catastrophic consequences. As I recall much of the city burnt one year.

How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:57:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 05:19 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
 I guess one of the things which makes me say what I said, especially with 
 regard to prophets is the notion of sinlessness.
 
 However, sinlessness by what standard? Moses was allegedly called a murderer. 
 Some Christians accuse Muhammad of having been a pedophile. Ultimately, all 
 that matters is the divine standard relative to a particular place and moment 
 in time.

Gilberto:
Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting
relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death was in
self-defense. The issue of Muhammad and Aishah might be addressed by
pointing out that marrying a young woman, while atypical, is
ultimately not a moral issue.

 
 There are a couple of different reasons for this idea, but I think that one 
 of them is that since God expects us to follow the prophets, the prophets 
 are supposed to act in ways worthy of emulating. Somehow their good 
 character helps us to recognize them.


 I did not accept Baha'u'llah based on His character. In fact, I knew next to 
 nothing about Him when I became a Baha'i in 1970. For whatever *reason*, my 
 heart responded to His claim, and I recognized His Station. However, in all 
 honestly, I can't remember the last time I ever thought about Baha'u'llah's 
 character.
 

Gilberto:
That seems sort of odd.


Peace

Gilberto.

 Otherwise, what criteria would you use to pick Bahaullah over David Koresh 
 or Jim Jones or the Heaven's Gate people?
 
 As I said, I am not much of an apologist. However, IMO, one should accept the 
 Soul and Spirit of the Prophet, not His historical personality (including His 
 character, etc.). At least that is how I see it.

How do you access the soul and spirit if not through the historical personality?


Peace

Gilberto
- 


My people are hydroponic

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson



In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:35:53 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Mark  I did not accept Baha'u'llah based on His character. In fact, I knew next to nothing about Him when I became a Baha'i in 1970. For whatever *reason*, my heart responded to His claim, and I recognized His Station. However, in all honestly, I can't remember the last time I ever thought about Baha'u'llah's character. Gilberto:That seems sort of odd.

Mark seems to have come into the faith the same way I did, through the written words of Baha`u'llah. When truth sings in your heart, you are carried away. Baha`u'llah's words reveal His character. Abdu'l Baha's words reveal Baha`u'llah's character. That is the necessary outcome when one finds the truth spoken by an individual.

Regards,

Scott

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-24 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 08:33 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting 
relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death was in 
self-defense. The issue of Muhammad and Aishah might be addressed by pointing 
out that marrying a young woman, while atypical, is ultimately not a moral 
issue.

It would certainly be a moral issue if someone tried to do it here in Kansas in 
2005. It would even be a moral issue in my hometown, New York City. It was not 
a moral issue in 7th century C.E Arabia. That's relativism, isn't it?

That seems sort of odd.

My relationship with Baha'u'llah is not dependent on my understanding of His 
character. However, since 'Abdu'l-Baha is regarded as the perfect Baha'i 
Exemplar, I *do* reflect on His character, 

How do you access the soul and spirit if not through the historical 
personality?

Through it (and through prayer), not in it.

Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

Iskandar, 

why could Aishah not marry again?

much love, 

janine"Iskandar Hai, M.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:  Gilberto: Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death was in self-defense. The issue of Muhammad and Aishah might be addressed by pointing out that marrying a young woman, while atypical, is ultimately not a moral issue. I'd say a "child" of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more accurateterm than "young woman" when she marries a person 50 years older than her.She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry again ever. Regards, Iskandar__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank ema!
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:25:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Dear Patti, 

That's possible, but in cities like Constantinople at the time of Baha'u'llah a simple act of arson could have catastrophic consequences. As I recall much of the city burnt one year. 

warmest, Susan 
We also have the example of the Hammurabi Code's punishments.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson





In a message dated 1/24/2005 9:11:47 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  why could Aishah not marry again?
  
  Dear John, 
  
  In the Islamic (and Baha'i) context it is unheard of for someone who was 
  married to prophet to ever marry someone else. That's why Shoghi Effendi 
  expresses so much shock at Mirza Yahya marrying the Bab's second wife and then 
  divorcing her only to marry her to Siyyid Muhammad Isfahani. It was a 
  violation of the Bab's honor. 
  
  warmest, Susan 


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Re: Arson





In a message dated 1/24/2005 9:24:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  We also have the example of the Hammurabi Code's 
punishments.

Dear Scott, 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/24/2005 9:25:47 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Dear Scott, 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. 
If a house collapses the builder forfeits his life, for instance. A harsh punishment making sense in a particular society like laws against arson in Constantinople.

Scott
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Re: Arson

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:09:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I think this is descending to petty quibbles.
  

Ok. Let's stop.


Peace

Gilberto

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:50:55 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 08:33 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
 Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting 
 relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death was in 
 self-defense. The issue of Muhammad and Aishah might be addressed by 
 pointing out that marrying a young woman, while atypical, is ultimately not 
 a moral issue.
 
 It would certainly be a moral issue if someone tried to do it here in Kansas 
 in 
 2005. It would even be a moral issue in my hometown, New York City. It was 
 not  a moral issue in 7th century C.E Arabia. That's relativism, isn't it?

I would probably prefer to discuss this point with an issue that
wasn't so emotionally charged because because it can be sensitive for
alot of folks. But I would say, no. I think that tastes and
expectations can change over the years, norms of behavior. But that
doesn't make them moral issues, no.

I think there is a difference between saying something is immoral and
saying that something is popularly perceived to be wrong or
disgusting. Maybe a decent example would be the kind of stuff people
do on Fear Factor. It's basically a game show where part of the
competition might include dares to eat some kind of disgusting
substance. Even though most people are on a very visceral level
disgusted by the act of eating bugs or horse intestine or whatever,
it's not clear that its a moral question.


 That seems sort of odd.
 
 My relationship with Baha'u'llah is not dependent on my understanding of His 
 character. However, since 'Abdu'l-Baha is regarded as the perfect Baha'i 
 Exemplar, I *do* reflect on His character,
 
 How do you access the soul and spirit if not through the historical 
 personality?

 Through it (and through prayer), not in it.

So, if someone unearthed persuasive evidence which proved that
Bahaullah had been involved in certain kinds of unsavory and
conventionally immoral behavior it wouldn't play a role in or affect
whether you believed in him?

Peace

Gilberto


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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

 
 I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more accurate
 term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older than her.

She is what she is whether she is married or not.

 She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry again ever.

So what are you ultimately trying to say?

Peace

Gilberto


 
 Regards,
 Iskandar
 
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Re: Arson

hmm... maybe you are right... though I find it difficult to imagine, seeing how much has changed here in Europe in 100 years time, and my optimism for the future of the world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:28:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

do you mean to say that Baha'u'llah revealed laws which are meant to last about 1000 years because of certain conditions which were surely temporary conditions in the countries He resided in?

Dear Janine,

Those conditions may not be as temporary as you imagine for much of the world. But yes, I think the bulk of Baha'u'llah's laws are written within a certain historical context. It is for us (and principally the House of Justice) to decide how the apply in very different circumstances.

warmest, Susan

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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

In the Quran it says:

33.6] The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have
on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the
possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of
Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other)
believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that
you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.

So the idea that the wives of the prophets are the mothers of the
believers is generally taken to imply that no one else could marry
them.

Peace

Gilberto




On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:33:02 -0800 (PST), louise mchenry
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Unheard of... maybe. Was it forbidden in the Qur'an? 
  
 Why did Muhammad marry her in the first place?
  
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/24/2005 9:11:47 P.M. Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
 why could Aishah not marry again?
  
 Dear John, 
  
 In the Islamic (and Baha'i) context it is unheard of for someone who was
 married to prophet to ever marry someone else. That's why Shoghi Effendi
 expresses so much shock at Mirza Yahya marrying the Bab's second wife and
 then divorcing her only to marry her to Siyyid Muhammad Isfahani. It was a
 violation of the Bab's honor. 
  
 warmest, Susan 
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Re: Arson





In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:21:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
that 
  each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what 
  goodness is? 

Dear Janine, 

Isn't that what this passage implies? 

"O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and 
sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring 
Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever 
the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure 
of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know 
it."

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And since honest-to-goodness real live Muslim actually do believe thatthe Quran is applicable today then you are actually calling Islam asbased in the Quran "brutal".
If the Shariah is enforced in a way to appear brutal to the present-day conscience, then to the present-day conscience judges it to be brutal. As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and places SOCIAL laws BE another time and place's social laws that problems arise.

My present-day conscience considers maiming to be brutal - and to fall under the aegis of a criminal punishment NOT appropriate to this time and place. If the Shariah were replaced by the Baha`i form of jurisprudence, I would not consider it inappropriate to this time and place.

I simply don't know how to make it plainer.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't believe that the actual nature of what is "brutal" depends onwhat date it is. It may depend on the actual realities of a givensituation but those don't just depend abstractly on the date. Forexample, if you are caught on a desserted island, or you are strandedon a mountain top with a group of people and no food, or if you arestuck on a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean, it is conceivable thatcertain actions might be appropriate for those situations which mightnot be appropriate in different conditions. But the mere passage oftime isn't a factor which should cause those definitions of moralityor brutality to change.
It is not the simple passage of time it is the change in social interactions and norms that make it inappropriate. The Baha`i Faith offers a mechanism for understanding why social laws change. The Qur'an does not.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:45:25 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Personally, I think that it is possible to outline certain featureswhich constitute a "good government" but this should be independentfrom a particular ideology.
Which is, of course, a product of western secular thought and practice.

A "Divine government" is possible when society understands and accepts that the Will of God is unrolled to create a divine civilization, and that a divine civilization will create changes in society tat we do not begin to comprehend, and that those changes will be realized over the course of centuries and millenia.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Arson

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west
 (so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how
 exactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?
 
 JS:  Doubling is the key word here.  If the fine for adultery is $100, it
 will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd time, $800 4th time, $1600 5th, $3200
 6th, $6400 7th, $12800 8th, $25600 9th, $51200 10th, $102,400 11th.  I don't
 think I would be able to affort to do it more than 7 times. 

Wow, do you have a spouse who would let you cheat on her 7 times?



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Re: Arson

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:45:11 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 And since honest-to-goodness real live Muslim actually do believe that
 the Quran is applicable today then you are actually calling Islam as
 based in the Quran brutal.

Scott:
 If the Shariah is enforced in a way to appear brutal to the present-day
 conscience, then to the present-day conscience judges it to be brutal. 

Gilberto:
But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience is
actually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determine
what the conscience is saying to us? I mean, if everyone could just
listen to their conscience, and the conscience was reliable then we
wouldn't have any real need for religion.

Part of the problem is that people's conscience aren't always the most
reliable. Even from a Bahai perspective, aren't there some very
commonly-held moral opinions, even in the West which are just wrong?

So why should popular conscience be the ultimate arbiter?

 As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and  places SOCIAL laws 
 BE another time and place's social 
 laws that problems arise.

What are the specific problems?



 My present-day conscience considers maiming to be brutal -


My present-day conscience tells me that burning people alive is
brutal. I also think in the West there are many present-day
consciences who would have problems with the Bahai rules about women,
homosexuality, pre-publication review, and the separation of
church-and-state.

So where does that leave us?

Peace

GIlberto


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Re: Arson

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:49:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:45:25 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Personally, I think that it is possible to outline 
 certain features
 which constitute a good government but this should be 
 independent
 from a particular ideology.


 Which is, of course, a product of western secular thought  and practice.


No, not at all. There is the example of the community of the prophet
in the Medina and statements in the Quran, the hadith, the writings of
early Muslims which discuss what it means to be a just ruler, and what
is the proper role of government. You can certain talk about how the
ruler should be responsive to the needs of the people, and shouldn't
be a tyrant, and that government officials shouldn't be corrupt, etc.
without having to swallow along with it secular liberal capitalsm.


Peace

Gilberto
My people are hydroponic

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Re: Arson

In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:11:24 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience" isactually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determinewhat "the conscience" is saying to us? I mean, if everyone could justlisten to their conscience, and the conscience was reliable then wewouldn't have any real need for religion.

No, the conscience is not a perfect guide. But the society is a perfect society within its paradigm The one thing we can accurately determine for ourselves with no assistance is that our conscience judges our actions with absolute accuracy. That is part of the human logos. There is other absolute truth in this: We do not always act as our conscience dictates. The whole concept of "guilt" arises from this paradox. Our acts do not always meet our own inward judgement of our acts. This is where we need the Revelation of God so our actionsmay be better rectified with out "conscience".
Part of the problem is that people's conscience aren't always the mostreliable. Even from a Bahai perspective, aren't there some verycommonly-held moral opinions, even in the West which are just wrong?So why should popular conscience be the ultimate arbiter?
Popular conscience and social conscience and inner conscience are three different things, are they not?

As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and places SOCIAL laws BE another time and place's social laws that problems arise.What are the specific problems?

Trying to enforce the cutting off of a man's hand for theft becomes a problem when the rest of the world society perceives it to be brutal - for one instance.

Regards,

Scott

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Re: Arson

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:22:43 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:11:24 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Gilberto:
 But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience is
 actually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determine
 what the conscience is saying to us? I mean, if everyone could just
 listen to their conscience, and the conscience was reliable then we
 wouldn't have any real need for religion.


 No, the conscience is not a perfect guide. But the society is a perfect
 society within its paradigm 

Gilberto:
I don't understand what you mean by that. There are certainly people
whose consicence moves them to protest and criticize institutions of
the society they live in.


Scott:
 The one thing we can accurately determine for
 ourselves with no assistance is that our conscience judges our actions with
 absolute accuracy. 

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you mean here either. If this were true wouldn't
religion be unnecessary?

Gilberto: 
 Part of the problem is that people's conscience aren't always the most
 reliable. Even from a Bahai perspective, aren't there some very
 commonly-held moral opinions, even in the West which are just wrong?
 
 So why should popular conscience be the ultimate arbiter?

Scott:
 Popular conscience and social conscience and inner conscience are three
 different things, are they not?
  

Gilberto:
What is the distinction between popular conscience and social conscience?

Scott:
  As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and  places SOCIAL
 laws BE another time and place's social 
  laws that problems arise.
 
Gilberto:
 What are the specific problems?


Scott:
 Trying to enforce the cutting off of a man's hand for theft becomes a
 problem when the rest of the world society perceives it to be brutal - for
 one instance.

Gilberto:
But on what grounds is it brutal?


MAybe I'm not being clear enough. It just seems that religions create
groups and institutions which promote certain values in society. And
there are at least two important tasks which religions carry out in
society.

 One, when the society drifts away from its core values, the religion
should remind people of certain principles. And secondly, at the same
time, religious leaders need to apply these principles to new
situations and correctly understand what is going on in society and be
sensitive and flexible to current situations in order to remain
relevant.

ESpecially when popular opinion drifts too far from the basic values,
then popular notions of what is good become much less reliable in
terms of determining right and wrong.

Peace

Gilberto
 


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Re: Arson

2005-01-23 Thread JS

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west (so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how exactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?  JS: Doubling is the key word here. If the fine for adultery is $100, it will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd time, $800 4th time, $1600 5th, $3200 6th, $6400 7th, $12800 8th, $25600 9th, $51200 10th, $102,400 11th. I don't think I would be able to affort to do it more than 7 times. Wow, do you have a spouse who would let you cheat on her 7 times?I think even thinking about it would put me on the couch for weeks.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail!
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Re: Arson




In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:23:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What's the question?
That's the answer "pop" is one thing and "society" is another.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Arson

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:08:27 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 12:10 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote:
 My present-day conscience tells me that burning people alive is brutal. I 
 also think in the West there are many present-day consciences who would 
 have problems with the Bahai rules about women, homosexuality, 
 pre-publication review, and the separation of church-and-state.
 
 To my understanding, references to conscience in the Baha'i primary sources 
 are an affirmation of human responsibility and volition and a rejection of 
 religious compulsion (proselytizing). They are not essentializing conscience.

So does that mean that conscience isn't thought of as some sort of
internalized sense of right and wrong?

Peace

GIlberto


 
 Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger.  Abbie Hoffman
 
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Re: Arson