Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jay Weekley]

conspiracy theories
around
> the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right.  I
totally
> respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get
> the vaccine.   I can understand how two people who look at the
> facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the
> real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine.   But the
> whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
> people actually being able to make an informed decision as
opposed
> to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making
decisions
> based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts
that
> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
> where many people make decisions based not on facts but on
rumors
> and suppositions.
>
> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
> lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
> the left has their fair share as well.  Which side has made up
> more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
> largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
> appear larger than it is.
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
> mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>
> <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>>> wrote:
>
> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid
medical
> reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
> individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
> their doctor and their family and then make their own
> decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
> medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
> perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
> sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
> pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
> their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
> no longer make this determination?   That people are not
smart
> enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
> someone on an email list knows better than each individual
> whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
> treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not
moving
> into an era in the country where people decide for others
> whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
> especially when we are talking about an experimental
> vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
> decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
> slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
> ability to make a good decision when they have enough
facts.
> I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have
enough
> data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>
> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is
vaccinated
> and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
> that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at
risk are
> those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
    > accepted that risk.
>
> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
> David,
> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
> "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the
vaccine?   I
> don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US
population
> the is refusing that are not below the current age
limit.   I
> would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
> not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.
>
> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a
solution
> for.
>
> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
>   

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Darin Steffl]

Dennis,

At this point, those are want the vaccine have it and feel protected. I
believe in its effectiveness and am not afraid to go out.

The problem we keep bringing up is half of America is not vaccinated yet.
Cases are spiking, ICU beds are filling up, and deaths are increasing.

When this happens, state governments have NO CHOICE but to implement
shutdowns and mask mandates again because hospitals must have ICU beds
available for every other health emergency besides covid.

How would you feel if the ICU at your local hospital was full of covid
patients while your family gets in a car crash and there's no staff or beds
available to save you?! That's what will happen if people don't get the
vaccine.

I keep saying this to people: the people who hate covid or thinks it's a
hoax, people who are anti-vax and anti-mask are the people keeping covid
around longer by not doing anything to stop it. If they refuse to
vaccinate, mask up, social distance, or even practice proper hygiene, then
covid will be around much longer and we will have shutdowns again with
business closures and mask mandates.

So no, I think vaccinated individuals should have all the freedom to live
their life. Then unvaccinated Americans should have to pay for tests, skip
big events, and mask up when out in public for their "choice" to not
vaccinate. Every choice has consequences and being anti-vax is un-American
at this point (unless legit medical reasons prevent it in your doctor's
opinion). Do your part to stop the spread or the anti-vax people will
literally shut our country down again and the blame will be all on them.

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:03 AM Dennis Burgess 
wrote:

> Or that other person can ware the condom since they are so afraid of it,
> or maybe they should not be out in public?
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: LTI-Full_175px]*
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 6:20 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying
> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been
> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t
> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’
> of another person.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles
> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision
> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being
> treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them
> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding
> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
> medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should force
> them to take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would feel
> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of
> the earth.   Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for
> the greater good.  I am not attempting to determine where that line is,
> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to
> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
> decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see
> things differently than some other folks.   So be it.
>
>
>
> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to
> act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems
> like a disconnect there.
>
>
>
> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to
> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.
> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt
> that very many of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the
> sale of fatty foods.   We would force each and everyone to get to a body
> mass within our accepted range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t
> need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Dennis Burgess]

Or that other person can ware the condom since they are so afraid of it, or 
maybe they should not be out in public?


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 6:20 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying you 
down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been 
prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want 
the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ of 
another person.
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:

There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles 
vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision 
should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being 
treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they 
do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them selfish 
for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems 
overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply 
because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against 
their will.   You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for 
the better good.   I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration 
of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there is a line 
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good.  I am not attempting to 
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical 
reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly 
shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am 
learning I see things differently than some other folks.   So be it.

I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act 
like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems like a 
disconnect there.

If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, 
we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.  We’d never 
drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt that very many 
of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. 
  We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted 
range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t need to do stupid things, but 
being alive carries with it the risk of dying.We are all much more likely 
to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of 
Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce 
the risk of those  likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on 
decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of 
death.

I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things.   While I 
chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best choice 
for their situation.   I also respect the right of someone who is not in the 
best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize that a drunk driver might 
kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and 
expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive 
when they have had too much.

Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never 
allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we understand that certain personal 
freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us.   
I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation.

Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective.
 I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are already 
vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it 
does, there is nothing to worry about.

I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is with 
us permanently.   We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll 
never be rid of it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because 
it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.   Please 
don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as 
it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% 
effective……. 

I will lay a friendly wager down.  Re

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

accine.   I can understand how two people
who look at the
>>    facts can choose either way, although I do
believe that with the
>>    real facts, most people would end up with the
vaccine.   But the
>>    whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is
detrimental to
>>    people actually being able to make an informed
decision as opposed
>>    to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and
making decisions
>>    based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of
ignoring facts that
>>    don't match up with one's world view and you've
got a situation
>>    where many people make decisions based not on
facts but on rumors
>>    and suppositions.
>>
>>    And before someone thinks I'm saying the right
has an exclusive
>>    lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for
the record that
>>    the left has their fair share as well.  Which
side has made up
>>    more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with
some issues
>>    largely just being both sides making up crap to
make the issue
>>    appear larger than it is.
>>
>>    On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>>    mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>
>>    <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>        This is the key to the issue. Who decides
what a valid medical
>>        reason is.    In this country, we have always
allowed an
>>        individual to discuss and evaluate medical
treatments with
>>        their doctor and their family and then make
their own
>>        decision.  The individual’s determination of
necessity for a
>>        medical treatment may vary from person to
person.   Their
>>        perception of risk of treatment versus reward
of not getting
>>        sick is not the same for every instance.   
Most people are
>>        pretty smart and will make decision in the
best interest of
>>        their situation.   Are we now saying that the
individual can
>>        no longer make this determination?   That
people are not smart
>>        enough to make the decision in their best
interest?    That
>>        someone on an email list knows better than
each individual
>>        whether or not that individual should be
taking any medical
>>        treatment including a vaccination?   I hope
we are not moving
>>        into an era in the country where people
decide for others
>>        whether or not they should take any medical
treatment,
>>        especially when we are talking about an
experimental
>>        vaccine.    If we are suggesting that the
group can now make
>>        decisions for mandatory medical procedures,
that is a pretty
>>        slippery slope.   I believe in the good of
people and their
>>        ability to make a good decision when they
have enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks
will eventually have enough
>>        data to determine they are ready to be
vaccinated.
>>
>>        Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a
    person is vaccinated
>>        and they believe the vaccine works, why are
they concerned
>>        that others are not vaccinated.   The only
people at risk are
>>        those who have decided not to be vaccinated
and they have
>>        accepted that risk.
>>
>>        *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
>>        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>        *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>        *To:* af@af.afmug.com
   

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

 it.
>>> >> 
>>> >>There is also the concern about variants being generated by the
>>> >>virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. 
>>> >> I'm going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy
>>> >>as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what
>>> >>the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a
>>> >>population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask
>>> >>wearing.  I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence,
>>> >>either way, to make a decision here.
>>> >> 
>>> >>The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need
>>> >>people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on
>>> >>actual facts.   Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories
>>> >>from the left or the right.  The vaccine isn't magnetic.  The
>>> >>vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have
>>> >>a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself.  No,
>>> >>the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective.  
>>> >> No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips.  Even if you survive
>>> >>COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having
>>> >>long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%).   No, the
>>> >>vaccines don't alter your DNA.   And on and on.
>>> >> 
>>> >>Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around
>>> >>the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right.  I totally
>>> >>respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get
>>> >>the vaccine.   I can understand how two people who look at the
>>> >>facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the
>>> >>real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine.   But the
>>> >>whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
>>> >>people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed
>>> >>to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions
>>> >>based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
>>> >>don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
>>> >>where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors
>>> >>and suppositions.
>>> >> 
>>> >>And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
>>> >>lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
>>> >>the left has their fair share as well.  Which side has made up
>>> >>more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
>>> >>largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
>>> >>appear larger than it is.
>>> >> 
>>> >>On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>>> >>>> >><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
>>> >> 
>>> >>This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
>>> >>reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
>>> >>individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
>>> >>their doctor and their family and then make their own
>>> >>decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>>> >>medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
>>> >>perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
>>> >>sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
>>> >>pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
>>> >>their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
>>> >>no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
>>> >>enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
>>> >>someone on an email list knows better than each individual
>>> >>whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
>>> >>treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
>>> >>into an era in the country where people decide for others

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Steve Jones]

I know maybe 100 people now that have had it. Of that maybe 30 or 40 I know
at a personal level. Zero have had reinfection. Of 330 million, it's a drop
in the pan, but reinfection would have occurred on multiple occasions if it
werent pretty well established at this point that natural immunity is
pretty strong, as is the standard.
The vaccinated breed some pretty wild variants, as the mutations occur in
response to environment.
I think watching Australias adventures will be interesting, as they were
touted as the model of compliance

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 8:43 AM Harold Bledsoe  wrote:

> Just curious: if you’ve had Covid already, do you guys believe the vaccine
> should still be mandatory?
>
>  I haven’t been vaccinated pretty much only because I’ve had the OG. “The
> Science” is mixed on whether naturally acquired immunity is better, worse,
> or same as the vaccine. If I had not had it already I’d get the vaccine.
> I’m probably more vaccinated than many on this list (hep a/b, typhoid, etc
> in addition to the usual ones).
>
> How many of the unvaccinated fall into this category? How many of the
> unvaccinated that are in the hospital or dying are on their second
> infection?
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
> *From:* AF  on behalf of Mike Hammett <
> af...@ics-il.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 9:07:24 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
> There also is the erosion of trust issue. Many government types either
> outright lied to get the action they wanted or had restrictions that didn't
> scale with the current risk. That caused a lack of trust, so now people
> don't listen to the right stuff said by the right people because previously
> they lied.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ics-il.com%2F=04%7C01%7C%7C848e8bb8ba9b400e8edf08d94f6d55fe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637628153286196725%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=VrOhrmGgHdBwlXtx93flrvAk8IBh78vfqiM%2F193xXvo%3D=0>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Harold Bledsoe]

Just curious: if you’ve had Covid already, do you guys believe the vaccine 
should still be mandatory?

 I haven’t been vaccinated pretty much only because I’ve had the OG. “The 
Science” is mixed on whether naturally acquired immunity is better, worse, or 
same as the vaccine. If I had not had it already I’d get the vaccine. I’m 
probably more vaccinated than many on this list (hep a/b, typhoid, etc in 
addition to the usual ones).

How many of the unvaccinated fall into this category? How many of the 
unvaccinated that are in the hospital or dying are on their second infection?


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AF  on behalf of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 9:07:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

There also is the erosion of trust issue. Many government types either outright 
lied to get the action they wanted or had restrictions that didn't scale with 
the current risk. That caused a lack of trust, so now people don't listen to 
the right stuff said by the right people because previously they lied.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Mike Hammett]

There also is the erosion of trust issue. Many government types either outright 
lied to get the action they wanted or had restrictions that didn't scale with 
the current risk. That caused a lack of trust, so now people don't listen to 
the right stuff said by the right people because previously they lied. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 7:38:12 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 


To be clear I don't disagree with you about getting vaccinated is the correct 
thing. 


But this isn't going to happen as long as there are loud voices in influential 
places which are continuing to push an agenda that is contrary to this message 
and is based on falsehoods. As I mentioned, I can understand that some people 
can look at the actual facts and make a decision for themselves which is 
contrary to what you and I believe is the correct opinion. I try very hard not 
to judge people who have a reasoned opinion based on facts. For example, if I 
was 20 and worked from home and generally wasn't around people, I might be 
wanting to wait a little bit more while we gain a bit more knowledge about the 
side effects to decide which vaccine was safest for me. There are lots of other 
examples where it might make sense to delay immunization based on the actual 
facts. 


But, all of us are going to have to gain immunity to this virus. You can either 
do it through a vaccine that has a very low risk of side effects (but not zero) 
or gain it naturally which has a 1% chance of death and 10-15% chance of 
long-term effects. Plus, gaining it naturally has all of the nasty public 
health issues we're discussing. This isn't a choice between "I'll take the risk 
of getting COVID", it's a choice between "What is the risk to me when I finally 
get COVID as an unvaccinated person vs what is the chance of me having bad side 
effects when having the vaccine". 


Statistically, the vaccine wins by every measure we have today. But people are 
bad with statistics and worse, those loud voices I mentioned hype up the 
low-instance side effects of getting the vaccine and downplay the significant 
risks around getting COVID if you are non-immunized so a non-informed person 
would be led to believe that the low-instance side effects are worse in most 
cases than the downsides to getting COVID. So there are a lot of people out 
there who are not able to make an informed decision based on actual risks. 
Instead, they're making decisions based on hype and lies. 


On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:57 PM Jaime Solorza < losguyswirel...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 



Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and other 
ones.. 
I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. 
Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit what you 
believe... 




On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 



I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up further, but, 
it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... 


One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places where 
people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. 


Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from infection is if 
other people behaved like they might be a carrier. That is, limit social 
interaction, stay away from other people if possible, wear masks, practice good 
hygiene. Some people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be 
infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both sides had rights - 
the right to do what one wants vs the right not to be infected by others who 
are a carrier. Add to that the right of being able to have an ICU bed available 
if you did end up infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and 
make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and because of 
the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the rights of people not to 
be infected. 


Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to protect myself. 
Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having long-term effects from COVID is 
more like dying from the flu (if not less). As a result, now that anyone who 
wants a shot can get one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a 
mask or gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should reflect 
that, which most of them do at this point. 


There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're going to have a 
resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people 
start to fill the hospital ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask 
mandates and similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kic

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

ually being able to make an informed
decision as opposed
>>    to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and
making decisions
>>    based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of
ignoring facts that
>>    don't match up with one's world view and you've got
a situation
>>    where many people make decisions based not on facts
but on rumors
>>    and suppositions.
>>
>>    And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has
an exclusive
>>    lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for
the record that
>>    the left has their fair share as well.  Which side
has made up
>>    more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with
some issues
>>    largely just being both sides making up crap to
make the issue
>>    appear larger than it is.
>>
>>    On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>>    mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>
>>    <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>        This is the key to the issue. Who decides what
a valid medical
>>        reason is.    In this country, we have always
allowed an
>>        individual to discuss and evaluate medical
treatments with
>>        their doctor and their family and then make
their own
>>        decision.  The individual’s determination of
necessity for a
>>        medical treatment may vary from person to
person.   Their
>>        perception of risk of treatment versus reward
of not getting
>>        sick is not the same for every instance.   
Most people are
>>        pretty smart and will make decision in the best
interest of
>>        their situation.   Are we now saying that the
individual can
>>        no longer make this determination?   That
people are not smart
>>        enough to make the decision in their best
interest?    That
>>        someone on an email list knows better than each
individual
>>        whether or not that individual should be taking
any medical
>>        treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we
are not moving
>>        into an era in the country where people decide
for others
>>        whether or not they should take any medical
treatment,
>>        especially when we are talking about an
experimental
>>        vaccine.    If we are suggesting that the group
can now make
>>        decisions for mandatory medical procedures,
that is a pretty
>>        slippery slope.   I believe in the good of
people and their
>>        ability to make a good decision when they have
enough facts.          I suspect most unvaccinated folks
will eventually have enough
>>        data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>
>>        Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person
    is vaccinated
>>        and they believe the vaccine works, why are
they concerned
>>        that others are not vaccinated.  The only
people at risk are
>>        those who have decided not to be vaccinated and
they have
>>        accepted that risk.
>>
>>        *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
>>        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>        *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>        *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
>>        *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>>        David,
>>            Do you have any research of the percentage
of people who
>>        "have a valid medical reason" for no

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Darin Steffl]

arger than it is.
>>> >>
>>> >>On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>>> >>>> >><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
>>> >>reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
>>> >>individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
>>> >>their doctor and their family and then make their own
>>> >>decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>>> >>medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
>>> >>perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
>>> >>    sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
>>> >>pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
>>> >>their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
>>> >>no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
>>> >>enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
>>> >>someone on an email list knows better than each individual
>>> >>whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
>>> >>treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
>>> >>into an era in the country where people decide for others
>>> >>whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
>>> >>especially when we are talking about an experimental
>>> >>vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
>>> >>decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
>>> >>slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
>>> >>ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.
>>> I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough
>>> >>data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>> >>
>>> >>Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
>>> >>and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
>>> >>that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at risk are
>>> >>those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
>>> >>accepted that risk.
>>> >>
>>> >>*From:* AF >> >><mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>> >>*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>> >>*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>>> >>*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>> >>
>>> >>David,
>>> >>Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
>>> >>"have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I
>>> >>don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population
>>> >>the is refusing that are not below the current age limit.   I
>>> >>would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
>>> >>not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.
>>> >>
>>> >>Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution
>>> >>for.
>>> >>
>>> >>On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with
>>> >>AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids
>>> >>by sneezing.  People have been prosecuted for infecting
>>> >>others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want the
>>> >>vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come
>>> >>within 100’ of another person.
>>> >>
>>> >>Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
>>> >>
>>> >><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>   

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

   individual
>>        whether or not that individual should be taking any
medical
>>        treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are
not moving
>>        into an era in the country where people decide for
others
>>        whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
>>        especially when we are talking about an experimental
>>        vaccine.    If we are suggesting that the group can
now make
>>        decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is
a pretty
>>        slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people
and their
>>        ability to make a good decision when they have
enough facts.          I suspect most unvaccinated folks will
eventually have enough
>>        data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>
        >>        Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is
vaccinated
>>        and they believe the vaccine works, why are they
concerned
>>        that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at
risk are
>>        those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they
have
>>        accepted that risk.
>>
>>        *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
>>        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>        *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>        *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
>>        *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>>        David,
>>            Do you have any research of the percentage of
people who
>>        "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the
vaccine?   I
>>        don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US
population
>>        the is refusing that are not below the current age
limit.   I
>>        would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20%
number
>>        not taking it that would get us to effective herd
immunity.
>>
>>        Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a
solution
>>        for.
>>
>>        On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>>            AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like
someone with
>>            AIDS spraying you down with their precious
bodily fluids
>>            by sneezing.  People have been prosecuted for
infecting
>>            others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t
want the
>>            vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you
come
>>            within 100’ of another person.
>>
>>            Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>>                On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
>>                mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>>
>>                <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                
>>
>>                There are valid reasons for deciding to take
this
>>                vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu
vaccine, or a
>>                myriad of other medications.  Each decision
should be
>>                based on risk/reward of that drug and the
medical
>>                condition being treated.   To think that you
know
>>                everyone’s medical situation better than they do
>>                doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully
presumptive.                  To call them selfish for making
a decision they
>>                believe is in their best medical interest
seems overly
>>                judgmental. Yes, there are people are
deciding not to
>>                take it simply because they think they
shouldn’t be
>>                forced to take a medical treatment against their
>>                will.   You may feel that we should force
them to take
>>                the treatment for the better good.   I doubt
yo

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck Macenski]

ccinated or continue quarantine+mask
>> >>wearing.  I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence,
>> >>either way, to make a decision here.
>> >>
>> >>The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need
>> >>people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on
>> >>actual facts.   Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories
>> >>from the left or the right.  The vaccine isn't magnetic.  The
>> >>vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have
>> >>a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself.  No,
>> >>the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective.
>> No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips.  Even if you survive
>> >>COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having
>> >>long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%).   No, the
>> >>vaccines don't alter your DNA.   And on and on.
>> >>
>> >>Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around
>> >>the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right.  I totally
>> >>respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get
>> >>the vaccine.   I can understand how two people who look at the
>> >>facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the
>> >>real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine.   But the
>> >>whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
>> >>people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed
>> >>to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions
>> >>based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
>> >>don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
>> >>where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors
>> >>and suppositions.
>> >>
>> >>And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
>> >>lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
>> >>the left has their fair share as well.  Which side has made up
>> >>more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
>> >>largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
>> >>appear larger than it is.
>> >>
>> >>On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>> >>> >><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
>> >>reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
>> >>individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
>> >>their doctor and their family and then make their own
>> >>decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>> >>medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
>> >>perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
>> >>sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
>> >>pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
>> >>their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
>> >>no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
>> >>enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
>> >>someone on an email list knows better than each individual
>> >>whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
>> >>treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
>> >>into an era in the country where people decide for others
>> >>whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
>> >>especially when we are talking about an experimental
>> >>vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
>> >>decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
>> >>slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
>> >>ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.
>>   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough
>> >>data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>> >>
>> >>Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Steve Jones]

lihood of having
> >>long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%).   No, the
> >>vaccines don't alter your DNA.   And on and on.
> >>
> >>Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around
> >>the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right.  I totally
> >>respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get
> >>the vaccine.   I can understand how two people who look at the
> >>facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the
> >>real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine.   But the
> >>whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
> >>people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed
> >>to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions
> >>based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
> >>don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
> >>where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors
> >>and suppositions.
> >>
> >>And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
> >>lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
> >>the left has their fair share as well.  Which side has made up
> >>more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
> >>largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
> >>appear larger than it is.
> >>
> >>On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
> >> >><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
> >>reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
> >>individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
> >>their doctor and their family and then make their own
> >>decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
> >>medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
> >>perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
> >>sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
> >>pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
> >>their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
> >>no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
> >>enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
> >>someone on an email list knows better than each individual
> >>whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
> >>treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
> >>into an era in the country where people decide for others
> >>whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
> >>    especially when we are talking about an experimental
> >>vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
> >>decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
> >>slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
> >>ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.
>   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough
> >>data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
> >>
> >>Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
> >>and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
> >>that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at risk are
> >>those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
> >>accepted that risk.
> >>
> >>*From:* AF  >><mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
> >>*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
> >>*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
> >>*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
> >>
> >>David,
> >>Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
> >>"have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I
> >>don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population
> >>the is refusing that are not below the current age limit.   I
> >>would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
> >>not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

gt;whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
>>people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed
>>to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions
>>based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
>>don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
>>where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors
>>and suppositions.
>> 
>>And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
>>lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
>>the left has their fair share as well.  Which side has made up
>>more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
>>largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
>>appear larger than it is.
>> 
>>On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>>><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
>>reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
>>individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
>>their doctor and their family and then make their own
>>decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>>medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
>>perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
>>sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
>>pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
>>their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
>>no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
>>enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
>>someone on an email list knows better than each individual
>>whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
>>treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
>>into an era in the country where people decide for others
>>whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
>>especially when we are talking about an experimental
>>vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
>>decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
>>slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
>>ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.  
>> I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough
>>data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>> 
>>Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
>>and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
>>that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at risk are
>>those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
>>accepted that risk.
>> 
>>*From:* AF ><mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>>*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>> 
>>David,
>>Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
>>"have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I
>>don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population
>>the is refusing that are not below the current age limit.   I
>>would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
>>not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.
>> 
>>Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution
>>for.
>> 
>>On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> 
>>AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with
>>AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids
>>by sneezing.  People have been prosecuted for infecting
>>others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want the
>>vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come
>>within 100’ of another person.
>> 
>>Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
>>
>><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>> 
>>
>> 
>>Th

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

nderstand how two people who look at the
> > facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the
> > real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine.   But the
> > whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
> > people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed
> > to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions
> > based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
> > don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
> > where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors
> > and suppositions.
> >
> > And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
> > lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
> > the left has their fair share as well.  Which side has made up
> > more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
> > largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
> > appear larger than it is.
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
> >  > <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
> >
> > This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
> > reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
> > individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
> > their doctor and their family and then make their own
> > decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
> > medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
> > perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
> > sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
> > pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
> > their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
> > no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
> > enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
> > someone on an email list knows better than each individual
> > whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
> > treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
> > into an era in the country where people decide for others
> > whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
> > especially when we are talking about an experimental
> > vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
> > decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
> > slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
> > ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.
> > I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough
> > data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
> >
> > Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
> > and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
> > that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at risk are
> > those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
> > accepted that risk.
> >
> > *From:* AF  > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
> > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
> > *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
> >
> > David,
> > Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
> > "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I
> > don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population
> > the is refusing that are not below the current age limit.   I
> > would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
> > not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.
> >
> > Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution
> > for.
> >
> > On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> >
> > AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with
> > AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids
> > by sneezing.  People have been prosecuted for infecting
> > others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want the
> > vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come
> > within 100’ of anothe

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

; continuing to run rampant among parts of the population.  I'm going to
>> ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy as then you have to
>> start asking difficult questions about what the actual risk of this is
>> versus the downside of forcing a population to either be vaccinated or
>> continue quarantine+mask wearing.   I'm not convinced that there is strong
>> enough evidence, either way, to make a decision here.
>>
>> The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need people
>> to make their decision about being vaccinated based on actual facts.   Not
>> based on talking points or conspiracy theories from the left or the right.
>>  The vaccine isn't magnetic.  The vaccine, although still not fully FDA
>> approved has proven to have a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than
>> COVID itself.  No, the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly
>> effective.   No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips.   Even if you
>> survive COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having
>> long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%).   No, the vaccines
>> don't alter your DNA.   And on and on.
>>
>> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around the
>> vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right.  I totally respect
>> people who look at the real facts and decide not to get the vaccine.   I
>> can understand how two people who look at the facts can choose either way,
>> although I do believe that with the real facts, most people would end up
>> with the vaccine.   But the whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating
>> is detrimental to people actually being able to make an informed decision
>> as opposed to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making
>> decisions based on that.  Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
>> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation where many
>> people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors and suppositions.
>>
>> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive lock on
>> conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that the left has their
>> fair share as well.   Which side has made up more crap seems to revolve
>> around the issue, with some issues largely just being both sides making up
>> crap to make the issue appear larger than it is.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron <
>> david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is the key to the issue.   Who decides what a valid medical reason
>>> is.In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and
>>> evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then
>>> make their own decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>>> medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their perception of
>>> risk of treatment versus reward of not getting sick is not the same for
>>> every instance.Most people are pretty smart and will make decision in
>>> the best interest of their situation.   Are we now saying that the
>>> individual can no longer make this determination?   That people are not
>>> smart enough to make the decision in their best interest?That someone
>>> on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that
>>> individual should be taking any medical treatment including a
>>> vaccination?   I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where
>>> people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical
>>> treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine.
>>> If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory
>>> medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope.   I believe in the
>>> good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have
>>> enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have
>>> enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they
>>> believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not
>>> vaccinated.   The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be
>>> vaccinated and they have accepted that risk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jay Weekley]

g both sides making up crap to make the issue
appear larger than it is.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:

This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
reason is.In this country, we have always allowed an
individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
their doctor and their family and then make their own
decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their
perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
sick is not the same for every instance.Most people are
pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can
no longer make this determination?   That people are not smart
enough to make the decision in their best interest?That
someone on an email list knows better than each individual
whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving
into an era in the country where people decide for others
whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
especially when we are talking about an experimental
vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make
decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
slippery slope.   I believe in the good of people and their
ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.  
I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough

data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.

Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
that others are not vaccinated.   The only people at risk are
those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
accepted that risk.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

David,
Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
"have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I
don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population
the is refusing that are not below the current age limit.   I
would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.

Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution
for.

On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with
AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids
by sneezing.  People have been prosecuted for infecting
others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want the
vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come
within 100’ of another person.

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron

<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:



There are valid reasons for deciding to take this
vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a
myriad of other medications.   Each decision should be
based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical
condition being treated.   To think that you know
everyone’s medical situation better than they do
doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.  
To call them selfish for making a decision they

believe is in their best medical interest seems overly
judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to
take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be
forced to take a medical treatment against their
will.   You may feel that we should force them to take
the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would
feel the same about mandatory castration of young men
to curb overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there
is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the
greater good.  I am not attempting to determine where
that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid
medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine
and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetc

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jaime Solorza]

y
>> people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors and suppositions.
>>
>> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive lock on
>> conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that the left has their
>> fair share as well.   Which side has made up more crap seems to revolve
>> around the issue, with some issues largely just being both sides making up
>> crap to make the issue appear larger than it is.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron <
>> david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is the key to the issue.   Who decides what a valid medical reason
>>> is.In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and
>>> evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then
>>> make their own decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>>> medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their perception of
>>> risk of treatment versus reward of not getting sick is not the same for
>>> every instance.Most people are pretty smart and will make decision in
>>> the best interest of their situation.   Are we now saying that the
>>> individual can no longer make this determination?   That people are not
>>> smart enough to make the decision in their best interest?That someone
>>> on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that
>>> individual should be taking any medical treatment including a
>>> vaccination?   I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where
>>> people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical
>>> treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine.
>>> If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory
>>> medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope.   I believe in the
>>> good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have
>>> enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have
>>> enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they
>>> believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not
>>> vaccinated.   The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be
>>> vaccinated and they have accepted that risk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Robert
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David,
>>> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a
>>> valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I don't imagine it's
>>> anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not
>>> below the current age limit.   I would WAG that it's probably a lot less
>>> than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to effective herd
>>> immunity.
>>>
>>> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.
>>>
>>> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>>
>>> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying
>>> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been
>>> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t
>>> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’
>>> of another person.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
>>>   wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles
>>> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision
>>> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being
>>> treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
>>> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them
>>> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
>>> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding
>>> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
>>> medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should force
>>> them to take the treatment 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jaime Solorza]

y just being both sides making up
> crap to make the issue appear larger than it is.
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron <
> david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>
>> This is the key to the issue.   Who decides what a valid medical reason
>> is.In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and
>> evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then
>> make their own decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a
>> medical treatment may vary from person to person.   Their perception of
>> risk of treatment versus reward of not getting sick is not the same for
>> every instance.Most people are pretty smart and will make decision in
>> the best interest of their situation.   Are we now saying that the
>> individual can no longer make this determination?   That people are not
>> smart enough to make the decision in their best interest?That someone
>> on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that
>> individual should be taking any medical treatment including a
>> vaccination?   I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where
>> people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical
>> treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine.
>> If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory
>> medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope.   I believe in the
>> good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have
>> enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have
>> enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they
>> believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not
>> vaccinated.   The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be
>> vaccinated and they have accepted that risk.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Robert
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>>
>>
>> David,
>> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a
>> valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I don't imagine it's
>> anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not
>> below the current age limit.   I would WAG that it's probably a lot less
>> than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to effective herd
>> immunity.
>>
>> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.
>>
>> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying
>> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been
>> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t
>> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’
>> of another person.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles
>> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision
>> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being
>> treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
>> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them
>> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
>> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding
>> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
>> medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should force
>> them to take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would feel
>> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of
>> the earth.   Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for
>> the greater good.  I am not attempting to determine where that line is,
>> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to
>> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
>> decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see
>> things differently than some other folks.   So be it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to
>>

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

ecision in
> the best interest of their situation.   Are we now saying that the
> individual can no longer make this determination?   That people are not
> smart enough to make the decision in their best interest?That someone
> on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that
> individual should be taking any medical treatment including a
> vaccination?   I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where
> people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical
> treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine.
> If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory
> medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope.   I believe in the
> good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have
> enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have
> enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>
>
>
> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they
> believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not
> vaccinated.   The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be
> vaccinated and they have accepted that risk.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Robert
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> David,
> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a valid
> medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I don't imagine it's anywhere
> near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not below the
> current age limit.   I would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20%
> number not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.
>
> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.
>
> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying
> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been
> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t
> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’
> of another person.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
>  wrote:
>
> 
>
> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles
> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision
> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being
> treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them
> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding
> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
> medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should force
> them to take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would feel
> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of
> the earth.   Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for
> the greater good.  I am not attempting to determine where that line is,
> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to
> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
> decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see
> things differently than some other folks.   So be it.
>
>
>
> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to
> act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems
> like a disconnect there.
>
>
>
> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to
> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.
> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt
> that very many of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the
> sale of fatty foods.   We would force each and everyone to get to a body
> mass within our accepted range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t
> need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of
> dying.We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke
> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid.   Those are just the
> facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those
> likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make
> big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death.
>
>
>
> I have long ago decided not 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

hile I
  chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of
  folks to make the best choice for their
  situation.   I also respect the right of someone
  who is not in the best physical condition to eat a
  steak.   I realize that a drunk driver might kill
  me some day, but I respect the right of
  individuals to go to a bar and expect that most
  (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink
  and drive when they have had too much.   
 
Keep in mind that this virus
  would have never come to our country if we never
  allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we
  understand that certain personal freedoms are
  worth the possibility of catching a disease that
  might kill us.   I have a tough time with the mass
  hypochondria surrounding this situation.    
 
Sorry, I am not meaning to make
  anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective. I
  just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of
  shape if they are already vaccinated.   I guess
  they don’t believe the vaccine will work because
  if it does, there is nothing to worry about.
 
I wager that given Covid’s
  relation to influenza like viruses, that it is
  with us permanently.   We will have yearly updates
  to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of
  it.   Not because people aren’t getting
  vaccinated, but because it will always mutate
  ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.  
  Please don’t take this as an argument to not work
  on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save
  lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines
  aren’t 100% effective……. 
 
I will lay a friendly wager
  down.  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several
  years ago.   Did we force people to stop having
  sex or many of the other high risk things that led
  to AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS
  anymore?   32 million people died of AIDS and
  people still die from it.   No one talks about it
  any more.  Covid will be the same way in 10
  years.  That is my bet.   
 
Again, lots of stuff to poke
  holes in here I am sure.   My only original point
  was that there are valid reasons folks chose not
  to get vaccinated.   We can’t and shouldn’t know
  what they are, but should respect their right to
  chose.
 
 
 

  From: AF 
On Behalf Of  Carl Peterson
Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat
    political

 

  
No vaccination is 100%
  effective.  From a public policy perspective,
  you need to pull on the levers that work in
  order to get R0 to be less than 1.  We know
  that a good percentage of people will follow a
  mask mandate.  Even if most of that group is
  vaccinated that lever will still do something
  since no vaccine is 100% effective and some
  number of that population is walking around as
  symptom-free carriers at any given time.  

   


  Getting most people
vaccinated would be the best way to lower
R0, but if someone is too self centered to
care about their neighbors or their country
there isn't much you can do to make them
care.  That lever isn't doing much
these days.  The issue here really is

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

ago
passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the
possibility of those causes of death.

I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of
these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the
right of folks to make the best choice for their
situation.   I also respect the right of someone who is not
in the best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize
that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect
the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that most
(but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive
when they have had too much.

Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our
country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we
understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the
possibility of catching a disease that might kill us.   I
have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding
this situation.

Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to
keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get
so bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated.   I
guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it
does, there is nothing to worry about.

I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like
viruses, that it is with us permanently.   We will have
yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of
it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but
because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just
like the flu virus.   Please don’t take this as an argument
to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will
save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t
100% effective……. 

I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS
epidemic several years ago.   Did we force people to stop
having sex or many of the other high risk things that led to
AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore?   32
million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. No
one talks about it any more.  Covid will be the same way in
10 years.  That is my bet.

Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My
only original point was that there are valid reasons folks
chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know
what they are, but should respect their right to chose.

*From:* AF 
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of * Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy
perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in
order to get R0 to be less than 1.  We know that a good
percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even if
most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do
something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number
of that population is walking around as symptom-free
carriers at any given time.

Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to
lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about
their neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do
to make them care.  That lever isn't doing much these days.
The issue here really is about what is best for society vs
what an individual thinks is best for themselves.  An
individual's personal risk of having serious Covid
complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some
risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities,
e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince
them to get vaccinated.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>>
wrote:

Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to
get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out
in timeout?  This is a free society, if you are so
scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.

**

**

*Dennis Burgess*

*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website:
http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/>

Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>

Need MikroTik Cloud Management:
https://cloud.linktechs.net <https:/

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

much
>>>>less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt that very many
>>>>of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the
>>>>sale of fatty foods.   We would force each and everyone to
>>>>get to a body mass within our accepted range.   Keep in mind
>>>>life is risky.   We don’t need to do stupid things, but
>>>>being alive carries with it the risk of dying.We are all
>>>>much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke related
>>>>illness, or cancer than we are of Covid.   Those are just
>>>>the facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the
>>>>risk of those  likely causes of mortality, but have long ago
>>>>passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the
>>>>possibility of those causes of death.
>>>> 
>>>>I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of
>>>>these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the
>>>>right of folks to make the best choice for their
>>>>situation.   I also respect the right of someone who is not
>>>>in the best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize
>>>>that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect
>>>>the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that most
>>>>(but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive
>>>>when they have had too much.
>>>> 
>>>>Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our
>>>>country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we
>>>>understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the
>>>>possibility of catching a disease that might kill us.   I
>>>>have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding
>>>>this situation.
>>>> 
>>>>Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to
>>>>keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get
>>>>so bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated.   I
>>>>guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it
>>>>does, there is nothing to worry about.
>>>> 
>>>>I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like
>>>>viruses, that it is with us permanently.   We will have
>>>>yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of
>>>>it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but
>>>>because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just
>>>>like the flu virus.   Please don’t take this as an argument
>>>>        to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will
>>>>save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t
>>>>100% effective……. 
>>>> 
>>>>I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS
>>>>epidemic several years ago.   Did we force people to stop
>>>>having sex or many of the other high risk things that led to
>>>>AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore?   32
>>>>million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. No
>>>>one talks about it any more.  Covid will be the same way in
>>>>10 years.  That is my bet.
>>>> 
>>>>Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My
>>>>only original point was that there are valid reasons folks
>>>>chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know
>>>>what they are, but should respect their right to chose.
>>>> 
>>>>*From:* AF 
>>>><mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of * Carl Peterson
>>>>*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
>>>>*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>>><mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>>>>*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>>> 
>>>>No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy
>>>>perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in
>>>>order to get R0 to be less than 1.  We know that a good
>>>>percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even if
>>>>most of th

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Mike Hammett]

I can't believe real medical reasons would be more than 5%. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Robert"  
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 8:52:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 

David, 
Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a valid medical 
reason" for not taking the vaccine? I don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% 
of the US population the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. 
I would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number not taking it 
that would get us to effective herd immunity. 

Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for. 


On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: 


AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying you down 
with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for 
infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the vax, fine but 
you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ of another person. 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron  
wrote: 








There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles 
vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision 
should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being 
treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they 
do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them selfish for 
making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems overly 
judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply because 
they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against their 
will. You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for the 
better good. I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration of 
young men to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there is a line 
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good. I am not attempting to 
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical 
reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly 
shamed for making that decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am 
learning I see things differently than some other folks. So be it. 

I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act 
like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems like a 
disconnect there. 

If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, 
we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others. We’d never 
drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt that very many of 
us on this list can say that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. We 
would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted range. 
Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being alive 
carries with it the risk of dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart 
disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just 
the facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely 
causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make big changes 
to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death. 

I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things. While I 
chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best choice 
for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who is not in the best 
physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me 
some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that 
most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive when they have 
had too much. 

Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never 
allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain personal 
freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us. I 
have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation. 

Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective. I 
just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are already 
vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it 
does, there is nothing to worry about. 

I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is with 
us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never 
be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will 
always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. Please don’t take 
this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will 
save lives. But as Ca

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

David,
        Sorry, but you are wrong.   "we have always allowed an. "  
This isn't true.  There have been numerous cases throughout the history 
of the United States where the good of society were determined to be 
more important than the rights of the individual and it has gone to the 
supreme court and been upheld.   Polio shots were mandated.   
Smallpox.   Those are two well remembered ones, there are numerous 
outbreaks of other infectious agents that civil authorities mandated 
"treatments". This idea of rights of the individual overriding the 
rights of society is a recent construct.   I suspect it's a construct 
injected through propaganda from the Internet...


On 7/24/21 6:12 AM, David Coudron wrote:


This is the key to the issue.   Who decides what a valid medical 
reason is.    In this country, we have always allowed an individual to 
discuss and evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their 
family and then make their own decision.  The individual’s 
determination of necessity for a medical treatment may vary from 
person to person.   Their perception of risk of treatment versus 
reward of not getting sick is not the same for every instance. Most 
people are pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of 
their situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can no longer 
make this determination?   That people are not smart enough to make 
the decision in their best interest?    That someone on an email list 
knows better than each individual whether or not that individual 
should be taking any medical treatment including a vaccination?   I 
hope we are not moving into an era in the country where people decide 
for others whether or not they should take any medical treatment, 
especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine.    If we 
are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory 
medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope.   I believe in 
the good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they 
have enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually 
have enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.


Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they 
believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not 
vaccinated.   The only people at risk are those who have decided not 
to be vaccinated and they have accepted that risk.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Robert
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

David,
    Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a 
valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I don't imagine it's 
anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are 
not below the current age limit.   I would WAG that it's probably a 
lot less than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to 
effective herd immunity.


Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.

On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS
spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.
 People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why
not COVID?  If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full
body condom if you come within 100’ of another person.

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron

<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:



There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the
shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other
medications.   Each decision should be based on risk/reward of
that drug and the medical condition being treated.   To think
that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they do
doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call
them selfish for making a decision they believe is in their
best medical interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there
are people are deciding not to take it simply because they
think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment
against their will. You may feel that we should force them to
take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would
feel the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb
overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there is a line
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good. I am
not attempting to determine where that line is, only
suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not
deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly
shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t seem that far
fetched, but I am learning I see things differently than some
other folks.   So be it.

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

This is the key to the issue.   Who decides what a valid medical reason is.
In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and evaluate 
medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then make their own 
decision.  The individual’s determination of necessity for a medical treatment 
may vary from person to person.   Their perception of risk of treatment versus 
reward of not getting sick is not the same for every instance.Most people 
are pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of their 
situation.   Are we now saying that the individual can no longer make this 
determination?   That people are not smart enough to make the decision in their 
best interest?That someone on an email list knows better than each 
individual whether or not that individual should be taking any medical 
treatment including a vaccination?   I hope we are not moving into an era in 
the country where people decide for others whether or not they should take any 
medical treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental 
vaccine.If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for 
mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope.   I believe in 
the good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have 
enough facts.   I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough 
data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.

Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they believe 
the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not vaccinated.   The 
only people at risk are those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they 
have accepted that risk.


From: AF  On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

David,
Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a valid 
medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I don't imagine it's anywhere 
near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not below the 
current age limit.   I would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% 
number not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.

Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.
On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying you 
down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been 
prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want 
the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ of 
another person.
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:

There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles 
vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision 
should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being 
treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they 
do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them selfish 
for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems 
overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply 
because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against 
their will.   You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for 
the better good.   I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration 
of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there is a line 
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good.  I am not attempting to 
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical 
reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly 
shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am 
learning I see things differently than some other folks.   So be it.

I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act 
like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems like a 
disconnect there.

If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, 
we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.  We’d never 
drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt that very many 
of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. 
  We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted 
range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t need to do stupid things, but 
being alive carries with it the risk of dying.We are all much more likely 
to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of 
Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce 
the risk of those  likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on 
decisions to 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Steve Jones]

161 iq here, I ain't got stuck with that devil juice. Them doctorin folk
ain't turnin my bone box into no chemistry set.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 12:26 PM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
>> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

talk about AIDS anymore?   32 million people died of AIDS and people 
still die from it.   No one talks about it any more.  Covid will be 
the same way in 10 years.  That is my bet.


Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My only 
original point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to 
get vaccinated.   We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but 
should respect their right to chose.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, 
you need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be 
less than 1.  We know that a good percentage of people will follow a 
mask mandate.  Even if most of that group is vaccinated that lever 
will still do something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some 
number of that population is walking around as symptom-free carriers 
at any given time.


Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but 
if someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or 
their country there isn't much you can do to make them care.  That 
lever isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is about 
what is best for society vs what an individual thinks is best for 
themselves.  An individual's personal risk of having serious Covid 
complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to 
the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting 
other people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated.


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess 
mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>> wrote:


Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get
vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? 
This is a free society, if you are so scared, you stay home. I
will take my chances.

**

**

*Dennis Burgess*

*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>

Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>

Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more
like a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. 
Un-vaxxed persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain
this to a child is a bit difficult. Those who don't have a
vaccine should not be allowed in public.  Every time a non-vaxxed
person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new
variant even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons
should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
around them and to the public at large.

On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:

I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t
believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts.  
I can send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine
if you want to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate,
however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for the
approval?   That doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let
folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the
no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
anyway.   We still check each and every person to make sure. 
Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure.
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are
pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you
through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are
helping the situation. It should be a discussion based upon
the scientific merits of the situation. Unfortunately both
side love to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t
agree with their decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many
folks publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know
that it is not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I
suggesting it should have.   But I don’t think that those of
us that decided to go ahead with the vaccination get to make
medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with an
experimental vaccine.

*From:* AF 
 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

Because the higher/longer the reproduction virus load the more likely 
the creation of a worse variant.   It's NOT about YOU.  IF you don't 
want to take the vaccine, then you can stay home.   Not those that are 
forming the barrier to transmission.


On 7/23/21 2:03 PM, Dennis Burgess wrote:


Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by 
a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free 
society, if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.


*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess*

*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
<http://www.linktechs.net/>


Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 



Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net 
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like 
a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed 
persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child 
is a bit difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be 
allowed in public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with 
Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse than the 
Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a 
health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large.


On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:

I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t
believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can
send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want
to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why
is not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That
doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane
based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably
won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still check each
and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval
process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug
companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t
bother putting you through the approval process”   We don’t do
that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are
helping the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the
scientific merits of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love
to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their
decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks
publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is
not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting
it should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided
to go ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for
those who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.

*From:* AF 
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of
your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not
that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is
not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because
they are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they
apply.  Anybody applying for FDA approval already has a pretty
good idea whether it's going to go through or not.  Presumably
people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport
expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a
CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.


2.
 3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the
virus. While we likely all agree that there is a very
good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent
it, it is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming
infec

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Sorry.  When the list is down for a few days I am jonesin’ for a fix.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Robert  wrote:
> 
>  I have thought the same thing..  You could even consider the Dems from Tx 
> as an anti-vax attack squad...  
> 
> 
> 
> But Kids...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/23/21 10:55 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start 
>> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer 
>> that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson  
>> wrote:
>>> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when 
>>> it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people 
>>> have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid 
>>> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.  
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
>>> wrote:
 If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
 increase, right?  Always good when your team wins. 
 -- 
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> - Forrest
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

I just heard that in my neighborhood two grandparents, vaxed, had been 
out and about, and got cases.   They then took care of their grandkids 
for the weekend.   Yep, grandkids came down with it.   The grandparents 
have very mild cases, the grandkids are still unknown at this time.   
These are part of the ramifications.   Yes we are going to be going back 
to masks.


Because the children.



On 7/23/21 1:32 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:


There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like 
a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed 
persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child 
is a bit difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be 
allowed in public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with 
Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse than the 
Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a 
health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large.


On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:


I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe 
I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you 
the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.


Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is 
not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t 
seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the 
likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to 
get on the plane anyway.   We still check each and every person to 
make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure.   
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure 
you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.


I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are 
helping the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the 
scientific merits of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to 
poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.


There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks 
publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is 
not FDA approved?


Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it 
should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go 
ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those 
who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that
smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long 
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they 
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  
Anybody applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea 
whether it's going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a 
no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport expecting to board 
a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know 
they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.


2.
 3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it
is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can 
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming 
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.


4.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.

I've never heard such an argument.

 3. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that
they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval
process exists to ensure we understand the potential of
serious side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you
are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this
experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of
you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an
intelligent thing to say “I am

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

I have thought the same thing..  You could even consider the Dems from 
Tx as an anti-vax attack squad...




But Kids...




On 7/23/21 10:55 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to 
start saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we 
would prefer that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go 
around".



On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really
dumb when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a
subset**of people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and
specifically the covid vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ
average will increase, right? Always good when your team wins.
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com





-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




--
- Forrest



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jaime Solorza]

bsolutely should as it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below,
> vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 
>
>
>
> I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic
> several years ago.   Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the
> other high risk things that led to AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS
> anymore?   32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it.
> No one talks about it any more.  Covid will be the same way in 10 years.
> That is my bet.
>
>
>
> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My only original
> point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.
> We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right
> to chose.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of * Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy perspective, you
> need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.
> We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even
> if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something
> since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is
> walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.
>
>
>
> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if
> someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country
> there isn't much you can do to make them care.  That lever isn't doing much
> these days.  The issue here really is about what is best for society vs
> what an individual thinks is best for themselves.  An individual's personal
> risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if
> they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for
> externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince
> them to get vaccinated.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess 
> wrote:
>
> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a
> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free society,
> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.
>
>
>
>
>
> **
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a
> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed persons
> are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit
> difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in
> public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the
> potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed
> persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
> around them and to the public at large.
>
> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I
> have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the
> Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>
>
>
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not
> OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so
> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
> anyway.   We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we
> do the FDA approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell
> drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother
> putting you through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good
> reason.
>
>
>
> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping
> the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits
> of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the
> intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.
>
>
>
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks
> publicly shaming others

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

  mad, just trying to keep perspective. I just don’t
  understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are
  already vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe the
  vaccine will work because if it does, there is nothing to
  worry about.
 
I wager that given Covid’s relation to
  influenza like viruses, that it is with us permanently.  
  We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll
  never be rid of it.   Not because people aren’t getting
  vaccinated, but because it will always mutate ahead of the
  vaccine, just like the flu virus.   Please don’t take this
  as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely
  should as it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out
  below, vaccines aren’t 100% effective…….
  
 
I will lay a friendly wager down. 
  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several years ago.   Did
  we force people to stop having sex or many of the other
  high risk things that led to AIDS?   Does anyone even talk
  about AIDS anymore?   32 million people died of AIDS and
  people still die from it.   No one talks about it any
  more.  Covid will be the same way in 10 years.  That is my
  bet.  
  
 
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in
  here I am sure.   My only original point was that there
  are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.   We
  can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect
  their right to chose.
 
 
 

  From: AF
 On Behalf Of 
Carl Peterson
Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

 

  
No vaccination is 100% effective. 
  From a public policy perspective, you need to pull on
  the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less
  than 1.  We know that a good percentage of people will
  follow a mask mandate.  Even if most of that group is
  vaccinated that lever will still do something since no
  vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that
  population is walking around as symptom-free carriers
  at any given time.  

   


  Getting most people vaccinated
would be the best way to lower R0, but if someone is
too self centered to care about their neighbors or
their country there isn't much you can do to make
them care.  That lever isn't doing much these days. 
The issue here really is about what is best for
society vs what an individual thinks is best for
themselves.  An individual's personal risk of having
serious Covid complications is pretty low so if
they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and
don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting
other people, then it's hard to convince them to get
vaccinated.  

  
   
  

  On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM
Dennis Burgess <dmburg...@linktechs.net>
wrote:


  

  Why
  does someone who has made an informed choice
  not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug
  have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free
  society, if you are so scared, you stay home.
  I will take my chances.  

   
  
 



Dennis
  Burgess

Author
of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
  
Link
  Technologies, Inc --
Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
  
Office:
314-73

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

 years.  That is my bet.  
>  
> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My only original 
> point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.   
> We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right to 
> chose.
>  
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Carl Peterson
> Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy perspective, you need 
> to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.  We 
> know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even if 
> most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since no 
> vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is walking 
> around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.  
>  
> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if 
> someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country 
> there isn't much you can do to make them care.  That lever isn't doing much 
> these days.  The issue here really is about what is best for society vs what 
> an individual thinks is best for themselves.  An individual's personal risk 
> of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if they believe there 
> is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. them 
> infecting other people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated.  
>  
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess  
> wrote:
> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a 
> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free society, 
> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. 
>  
>  
> 
> Dennis Burgess
> 
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a 
> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed persons are 
> a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit difficult. 
>  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in public.  Every time 
> a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new 
> variant even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be 
> quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to the 
> public at large.
> 
> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
> stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna 
> sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>  
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK 
> to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so 
> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that 
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   
> We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA 
> approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies 
> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you 
> through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good reason.
>  
> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
> situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of 
> the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of 
> those that don’t agree with their decision.  
>  
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
> shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? 
>  
> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
> have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
> vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable 
> with an experimental vaccine.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
> 
> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, Da

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Daniel White]

Those are memories I'd rather forget.  We did have a choice on the
anthrax vaccine, and had to sign a waiver to take it.  I figured what
the hell... the Marines owned my body at that point anyways.

photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
direct:+1 (702) 470-2766

> Jan-GAMs <mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>
> July 23, 2021 at 14:23
>
> Back in "boot" we lined up by the hundreds and got shots till our arms
> bled.  I don't recall being asked to volunteer or choose which shot I
> was going to get.  They did have the keys to the brig, I didn't.
>
> On 7/23/21 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
>
> Chuck McCown via AF <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
> July 23, 2021 at 14:08
> She was imprisoned multiple times.  She lost her liberty, certainly
> much more of a heavy hand than being required to get vaccinated.  The
> government has a duty of care as part of being the soverign.  They
> must act to protect the public.  My grandfather was a cop whose duty
> included forcibly removing contagious people to that “pest house” for
> quarantine.  I think a vaccine requirement is what the government
> should do to protect the greatest portion of the population.  Anyone
> here been in the military and take a pass on the shots?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> David Coudron <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>
> July 23, 2021 at 13:59
>
> Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s
> situation.   I understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have
> an idea of what that story is about.   My basic understanding was that
> an individual who knew they were sick was intentionally infecting
> others.   Certainly a despicable act if that was the case.   To better
> put that in the context of today’s situation I would want to know
> these things:
>
>  1. Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?  
>  2. What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I
> suspect typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data
> to back that up.
>  3. I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting
> people is a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid
> college intentional infection parties, we don’t really have people
> intentionally trying to infect others.  
>
>  
>
> If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu
> vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in
> high risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required.   We
> don’t even require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of
> other annoying and/or dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA
> approved vaccines.  
>
>  
>
> However, I would reiterate this:
>
> If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if
> others haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think
> it is necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for their
> own good will against their will?   
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown 
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
> *To:* David Coudron 
> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>  
>
> One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jaime Solorza]

Bingo Forest...you can't fix stupid.
My flame retardant suit will protect me.
Lost two cousins and four friends to it so far...
So fuck Covid-19

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 11:56 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start
> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer
> that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
>> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
>> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
>> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
>> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average
>>> will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles 
vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision 
should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being 
treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they 
do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them selfish 
for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems 
overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply 
because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against 
their will.   You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for 
the better good.   I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration 
of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there is a line 
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good.  I am not attempting to 
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical 
reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly 
shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am 
learning I see things differently than some other folks.   So be it.

I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act 
like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems like a 
disconnect there.

If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, 
we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.  We’d never 
drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt that very many 
of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. 
  We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted 
range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t need to do stupid things, but 
being alive carries with it the risk of dying.We are all much more likely 
to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of 
Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce 
the risk of those  likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on 
decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of 
death.

I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things.   While I 
chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best choice 
for their situation.   I also respect the right of someone who is not in the 
best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize that a drunk driver might 
kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and 
expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive 
when they have had too much.

Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never 
allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we understand that certain personal 
freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us.   
I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation.

Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective.
 I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are already 
vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it 
does, there is nothing to worry about.

I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is with 
us permanently.   We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll 
never be rid of it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because 
it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.   Please 
don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as 
it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% 
effective……. 

I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several 
years ago.   Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the other high 
risk things that led to AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore?   32 
million people died of AIDS and people still die from it.   No one talks about 
it any more.  Covid will be the same way in 10 years.  That is my bet.

Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My only original point 
was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.   We can’t 
and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right to chose.



From: AF  On Behalf Of Carl Peterson
Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy perspective, you need 
to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.  We know 
that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even if most of 
that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since no vaccine is 
100% effective and some

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Carl Peterson]

No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy perspective, you
need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.
We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even
if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something
since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is
walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.

Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if
someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country
there isn't much you can do to make them care.  That lever isn't doing much
these days.  The issue here really is about what is best for society vs
what an individual thinks is best for themselves.  An individual's personal
risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if
they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for
externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince
them to get vaccinated.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess 
wrote:

> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a
> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free society,
> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: LTI-Full_175px]*
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jan-GAMs
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a
> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed persons
> are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit
> difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in
> public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the
> potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed
> persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
> around them and to the public at large.
>
> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I
> have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the
> Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>
>
>
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not
> OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so
> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
> anyway.   We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we
> do the FDA approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell
> drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother
> putting you through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good
> reason.
>
>
>
> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping
> the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits
> of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the
> intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.
>
>
>
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks
> publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA
> approved?
>
>
>
> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should
> have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with
> the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t
> comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
>
> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks
> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.
>
>
>
>1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
>FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork
>clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
>
>
>1. This is not FDA approved.
>
&g

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Dennis Burgess]

Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA 
approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free society, if you are 
so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political


There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a 
whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed persons are a 
health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit difficult.  
Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in public.  Every time a 
non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new variant 
even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as 
they are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna sheet 
I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to 
say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  
We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the 
no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still check 
each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process 
to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty 
sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the 
situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those 
that don’t agree with their decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with 
an experimental vaccine.


From: AF <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political


I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport 
expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they 
know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.



 *
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split hairs 
and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
prevents them from dying.



 *

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.



  1.Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine 
you take has some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have 
such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The 
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious 
side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks 
are saying you have to take this e

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

We can do that if we have to.  Thanks anti vaxxers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:48 PM, Dennis Burgess  wrote:
> 
> 
> St. Louis just went into another mask mandate even if you HAVE been 
> vaccinated!  Lol.
>  
>  
> 
> Dennis Burgess
> 
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:27 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Cc: Chuck McCown 
> Subject: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins. 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Dennis Burgess]

St. Louis just went into another mask mandate even if you HAVE been vaccinated! 
 Lol.


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jay Weekley]

re vaccinated so obsessed with people
that aren’t vaccinated?   For those of us that are
vaccinated, we are safe right?   That was the point of taking
the vaccine.
 6. Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points
to this being with us permanently like an influenza sort of
virus.   It will show up every year with little mutations
that will require updates, or boosters, or yearly covid
shots.What ever you want to call them. Is really so
stupid to wait until this is FDA approved before
participating?   If we have to do this without FDA approval,
why does that process even exist?

I have always appreciated this list because it is usually very
fact focused, and very good at exploring solutions to problems.
While some lists are very superficial and suffer from pat answers
to technical problems, folks in this list have always tended dig
deep and find tangible information related to the email topic. I
get that it is very easy to joke about the intelligence of those
who have made a decision we don’t agree with, but I don’t believe
this topic is nearly that cut and dried.

As Chuck mentioned, unfortunately this is a somewhat political
topic.   I don’t understand why, other than the fact that some
react more harshly to being told they have to do something.  
This should be a scientific discussion.   If definitely shouldn’t

be about public shame.   We don’t know the medical situation of
those that chose not to participate in an experimental medical
treatment.

Regards,

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 1:02 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Cc:* Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit
unvaccinated...

How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?

*From:*Forrest Christian (List Account)

*Sent:*Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to
start saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we
would prefer that you don't so there are less of you to vote next
go around".

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>>
wrote:

That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be
really dumb when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.  
It seems a subset**of people have convinced themselves that

vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are somehow a
liberal thing.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global
IQ average will increase, right?  Always good when your
team wins.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a 
whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons 
are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit 
difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in 
public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is 
the potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant.  
Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to 
everyone around them and to the public at large.


On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:


I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe 
I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you 
the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.


Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is 
not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t 
seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the 
likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get 
on the plane anyway.   We still check each and every person to make 
sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure.   
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure 
you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.


I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping 
the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific 
merits of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the 
intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.


There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks 
publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not 
FDA approved?


Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it 
should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go 
ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who 
aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long 
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they 
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane. 
Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the 
drug test.  Same idea.


2.
 3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is
far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can 
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming 
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.


4.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.

I've never heard such an argument.

 3.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.  
Every medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The
vast majority of medicines have such negligible side effects,
that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval
process exists to ensure we understand the potential of
serious side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are
30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this
experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of
you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an
intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting
seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of
using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine
personal risk of disease and use of a drug.    Apparently we
no longer do that.   We publicly shame people into using
experimental drugs.



 4. Since it is not FDA approved, we

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

Back in "boot" we lined up by the hundreds and got shots till our arms 
bled.  I don't recall being asked to volunteer or choose which shot I 
was going to get.  They did have the keys to the brig, I didn't.


On 7/23/21 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
She was imprisoned multiple times.  She lost her liberty, certainly 
much more of a heavy hand than being required to get vaccinated.  The 
government has a duty of care as part of being the soverign.  They 
must act to protect the public.  My grandfather was a cop whose duty 
included forcibly removing contagious people to that “pest house” for 
quarantine.  I think a vaccine requirement is what the government 
should do to protect the greatest portion of the population.  Anyone 
here been in the military and take a pass on the shots?


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:59 PM, David Coudron 
 wrote:




Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s 
situation.   I understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have 
an idea of what that story is about.   My basic understanding was 
that an individual who knew they were sick was intentionally 
infecting others.   Certainly a despicable act if that was the 
case.   To better put that in the context of today’s situation I 
would want to know these things:


 1. Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?
 2. What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I
suspect typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data
to back that up.
 3. I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting
people is a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid
college intentional infection parties, we don’t really have
people intentionally trying to infect others.

If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu 
vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in 
high risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required. We 
don’t even require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of 
other annoying and/or dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA 
approved vaccines.


However, I would reiterate this:

If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if 
others haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think 
it is necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for 
their own good will against their will?


Regards,

*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
*To:* David Coudron 
*Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:



Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that
smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.
 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the
virus.   While we likely all agree that there is a very
good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it,
it is far from a proven fact.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.    Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level of side
effect. The vast majority of medicines have such negligible
side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the
potential of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or
dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this
disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.  
It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with
their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of
a drug.    Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly
shame people into using experimental drugs.
 3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks
need to take.   We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under
40 and were taking seizure co

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Mike Hammett]

"It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the situation." 
Unfortunately, even scientists are being censored on social media. Real ones 
with real things to say, not Cletus and his Bill Gates 5G malarkey. A podcast 
episode with one of the inventors of the mRNA process was taken down because it 
wasn't 100% in line with CDC\WHO. Same thing has happened with plenty of other 
discipline-relevant scientists and their social media, podcasts, etc. talking 
about scientific issues. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "David Coudron"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:11:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 



I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I have 
stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I 
received with my vaccine if you want to see that. 

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to 
say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We 
don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly 
list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway. We still check each and 
every person to make sure. Just like we do the FDA approval process to make 
sure. Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure 
you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval process” We 
don’t do that for good reason. 

I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping the 
situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the 
situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those 
that don’t agree with their decision. 

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? 

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with 
an experimental vaccine. 




From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. 

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: 


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 


1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts. Among them are: 




1. This is not FDA approved. 


It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, but 
around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA approval 
already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or not. 
Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport 
expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they 
know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. 







1. 
2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. 



99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split hairs 
and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
prevents them from dying. 







1. 


1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. 


I've never heard such an argument. 





1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every medicine you 
take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have such 
negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe. The FDA 
approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side 
effects and drug interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are 
saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small 
chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent 
thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from 
this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to be 
that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal 
risk of disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs. 









1. Since it

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

Typhoid carriers are asymptomatic.  Mary was a Typhoid carrier. Not much 
different than many Covid carriers, asymptomatic!  As I've been saying 
for over a year, quarantine the assholes until after the disease is 
gone!  If the carriers cased the death of someone they should get jail.


On 7/23/21 12:59 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s 
situation.   I understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have 
an idea of what that story is about.   My basic understanding was that 
an individual who knew they were sick was intentionally infecting 
others. Certainly a despicable act if that was the case.   To better 
put that in the context of today’s situation I would want to know 
these things:


 1. Was there typhoid vaccine that was generally available?
 2. What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I
suspect typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data
to back that up.
 3. I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting
people is a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid
college intentional infection parties, we don’t really have people
intentionally trying to infect others.

If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu 
vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in 
high risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required.   We 
don’t even require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of 
other annoying and/or dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA 
approved vaccines.


However, I would reiterate this:

If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if 
others haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think 
it is necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for their 
own good will against their will?


Regards,

*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
*To:* David Coudron 
*Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:



Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.
 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is
far from a proven fact.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.    Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level of side
effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible
side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the
potential of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly
small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems
like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of
getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the
risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that
people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.   
Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly shame people
into using experimental drugs.
 3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks
need to take.   We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40
and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very
fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully
understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of
the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good
chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data
like that is certainly not available yet.
 4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that
have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimenta

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

This is not like choosing to not wear a seatbelt.  This is like choosing to 
drive without brakes.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:11 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
> stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna 
> sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>  
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK 
> to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so 
> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that 
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   
> We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA 
> approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies 
> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you 
> through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good reason.
>  
> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
> situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of 
> the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of 
> those that don’t agree with their decision.  
>  
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
> shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? 
>  
> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
> have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
> vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable 
> with an experimental vaccine.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
> 
> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
> have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 
>  
> Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved 
> medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated 
> several facts.  Among them are:
> This is not FDA approved.  
> It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
> around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
> tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
> approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
> not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the 
> airport expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL 
> if they know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.  
> 
>  
> This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we likely 
> all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help 
> prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split hairs 
> and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
> prevents them from dying.
> 
>  
> The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe 
> since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. 
> I've never heard such an argument.  
> 
>   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you 
> take has some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have 
> such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The 
> FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious 
> side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks 
> are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly 
> small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an 
> intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or 
> dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   
> It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to 
> determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no 
> longer do that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
> 
> 
> Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
> interactions with other medicines folks need to take.  
> It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.
> 
> 
> We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We 
> ha

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Mike Hammett]

Another reason why vaccinated people would "selfishly" care about the 
unvaccinated is that the unvaccinated people are likely where the variants are 
coming from. Eventually, a variant will come out that isn't covered by the 
vaccine. At that point, all of the vaccinated people are at risk again. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Macenski"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:00:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 



Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated? 



A: A few reasons: 


* We are tired of wearing masks 
* We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%) 
* We want open ICU beds in case we need them 


If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician and it was 
recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I don't think that 
happens very often. 





On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 



One question: Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free? 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron < david.coud...@advantenon.com > 
wrote: 








Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 


1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts. Among them are: 


1. This is not FDA approved. 
2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. 
2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe. The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame 
people into using experimental drugs. 
3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take. We likely understand the 
very common medicines, but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval processes 
for good reason. If for example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure 
control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental drug 
until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of 
the seizure control medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or 
death from the virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from 
seizure. As far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. 
4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? Does it make them feel 
smarter? We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and that is 
with FDA approved medicine. But now all of a sudden it is OK to ridicule folks 
that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental drug for which 
the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious illness or 
death? And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the facts at hand, 
or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of this particular 
vaccine. Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place and a full 
understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine the 
conversation might look completely different. Right now, I believe some very 
intelligent people are looking at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but 
probably some day as this will become the new yearly flu vaccine”. Until then, 
my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the 
vaccine. 
5. Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated? For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe right? That was 
the point of taking the vaccine. 
6. Most of the science that seems most accura

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

Ditto Adam

On 7/23/21 12:55 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that 
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the
paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long 
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they 
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.  
Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the 
drug test.  Same idea.


1.


 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is
far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can 
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming 
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.


1.


 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.


I've never heard such an argument.


 1.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that
they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side
effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old
and folks are saying you have to take this experimental drug to
prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously
ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to
be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.   
Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly shame people into
using experimental drugs.




 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding
of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.


It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.


 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly
not all.   We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for
example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control
medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn
into a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I
know data like that is certainly not available yet.




 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that
have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?

I don't know the answer to that.  I'm not comfortable with that 
behavior either.  It goes both ways though.  Plenty of memes out there 
accusing people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna sheet 
I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to 
say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  
We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the 
no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still check 
each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process 
to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty 
sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the 
situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those 
that don’t agree with their decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with 
an experimental vaccine.


From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political


I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport 
expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they 
know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.


 *
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split hairs 
and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
prevents them from dying.


 *

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.


  1.Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine 
you take has some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have 
such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The 
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious 
side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks 
are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly 
small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an 
intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or 
dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It 
used to be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to 
determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no 
longer do that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.



  1.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.



  1.  We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   
We have FDA approval processes for good reason.   If for example, you were 
under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to 
hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine 
might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An 
incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into 
a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that 
is certainly not available yet.



  1.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Tyson Burris]

2 negative tests
1 positive antibody test
O negative blood type
No vaccine

Have a good weekend

Tyson Burris, President
Internet Communications Inc.
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Franklin, IN 46131

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From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck Macenski
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 4:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated?

A: A few reasons:

  *   We are tired of wearing masks
  *   We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%)
  *   We want open ICU beds in case we need them
If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician and it was 
recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I don't think that 
happens very often.


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron 
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs.
  2.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were taking 
seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the 
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of 
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly not 
available yet.
  3.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them 
feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and 
that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to 
ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental 
drug for which the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious 
illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the 
facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of 
this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place 
and a full understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine 
the conversation might look completely different.   Right now, I believe some 
very intelligent people are looking at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but 
probably some day as this will become the new yearly flu vaccine”.   Until 
then, my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the 
vaccin

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

She was imprisoned multiple times.  She lost her liberty, certainly much more 
of a heavy hand than being required to get vaccinated.  The government has a 
duty of care as part of being the soverign.  They must act to protect the 
public.  My grandfather was a cop whose duty included forcibly removing 
contagious people to that “pest house” for quarantine.  I think a vaccine 
requirement is what the government should do to protect the greatest portion of 
the population.  Anyone here been in the military and take a pass on the shots?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:59 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s situation.   I 
> understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have an idea of what that 
> story is about.   My basic understanding was that an individual who knew they 
> were sick was intentionally infecting others.   Certainly a despicable act if 
> that was the case.   To better put that in the context of today’s situation I 
> would want to know these things:
> Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?  
> What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I suspect typhoid 
> was significantly higher, but don’t have any data to back that up.
> I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting people is a 
> pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid college intentional 
> infection parties, we don’t really have people intentionally trying to infect 
> others. 
>  
> If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu 
> vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in high 
> risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required.   We don’t even 
> require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of other annoying and/or 
> dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA approved vaccines.  
>  
> However, I would reiterate this:
> If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if others 
> haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think it is 
> necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for their own good 
> will against their will?   
>  
> Regards,
> From: Chuck McCown  
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
> To: David Coudron 
> Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
> have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 
>  
> Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved 
> medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated 
> several facts.  Among them are:
> This is not FDA approved.  
> This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we likely 
> all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help 
> prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
> The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe 
> since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
> risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some 
> level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible 
> side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval 
> process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects 
> and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying 
> you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small 
> chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent 
> thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from 
> this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to 
> be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine 
> personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do 
> that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
> Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
> interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
> the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
> processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were 
> taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
> experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen 
> the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk 
> of serious illness or

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck Macenski]

 with people that
>>aren’t vaccinated?   For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe
>>right?   That was the point of taking the vaccine.
>>6. Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points to
>>this being with us permanently like an influenza sort of virus.   It will
>>show up every year with little mutations that will require updates, or
>>boosters, or yearly covid shots.What ever you want to call them. 
>> Is
>>really so stupid to wait until this is FDA approved before participating?
>>If we have to do this without FDA approval, why does that process even
>>exist?
>>
>>
>>
>> I have always appreciated this list because it is usually very fact
>> focused, and very good at exploring solutions to problems.   While some
>> lists are very superficial and suffer from pat answers to technical
>> problems, folks in this list have always tended dig deep and find tangible
>> information related to the email topic.   I get that it is very easy to
>> joke about the intelligence of those who have made a decision we don’t
>> agree with, but I don’t believe this topic is nearly that cut and dried.
>>
>>
>>
>> As Chuck mentioned, unfortunately this is a somewhat political topic.   I
>> don’t understand why, other than the fact that some react more harshly to
>> being told they have to do something.   This should be a scientific
>> discussion.   If definitely shouldn’t be about public shame.   We don’t
>> know the medical situation of those that chose not to participate in an
>> experimental medical treatment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown via AF
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 1:02 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>>
>>
>> They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit unvaccinated...
>>
>> How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM
>>
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>>
>>
>> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start
>> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer
>> that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson <
>> cpeter...@portnetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
>> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
>> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
>> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
>> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> - Forrest
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck Macenski]

 so stupid to wait until this is FDA approved before participating?
>If we have to do this without FDA approval, why does that process even
>exist?
>
>
>
> I have always appreciated this list because it is usually very fact
> focused, and very good at exploring solutions to problems.   While some
> lists are very superficial and suffer from pat answers to technical
> problems, folks in this list have always tended dig deep and find tangible
> information related to the email topic.   I get that it is very easy to
> joke about the intelligence of those who have made a decision we don’t
> agree with, but I don’t believe this topic is nearly that cut and dried.
>
>
>
> As Chuck mentioned, unfortunately this is a somewhat political topic.   I
> don’t understand why, other than the fact that some react more harshly to
> being told they have to do something.   This should be a scientific
> discussion.   If definitely shouldn’t be about public shame.   We don’t
> know the medical situation of those that chose not to participate in an
> experimental medical treatment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 1:02 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit unvaccinated...
>
> How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start
> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer
> that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> - Forrest
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s situation.   I 
understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have an idea of what that 
story is about.   My basic understanding was that an individual who knew they 
were sick was intentionally infecting others.   Certainly a despicable act if 
that was the case.   To better put that in the context of today’s situation I 
would want to know these things:

  1.  Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?
  2.  What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I suspect 
typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data to back that up.
  3.  I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting people is 
a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid college intentional 
infection parties, we don’t really have people intentionally trying to infect 
others.

If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu vaccine?  
 It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in high risk health or 
age groups.   But it has never been required.   We don’t even require vaccine 
for measles, shingles, and a myriad of other annoying and/or dangerous 
diseases.   And these have FDA approved vaccines.

However, I would reiterate this:
If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if others 
haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think it is necessary 
to force people to take an experimental drug for their own good will against 
their will?

Regards,
From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
To: David Coudron 
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron 
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs.
  2.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were taking 
seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the 
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of 
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly not 
available yet.
  3.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them 
feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and 
that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to 
ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental 
drug for which the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious 
illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the 
facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of 
this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place 
and a full understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the v

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Adam Moffett]

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that 
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the
paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, 
but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are 
pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.  Presumably 
people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test.  
Same idea.


1.


 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While
we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that
this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split 
hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but 
it clearly prevents them from dying.


1.


 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.


I've never heard such an argument.


 1.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that they
are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process exists
to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and
drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are
saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it
seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of
getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the
risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal
risk of disease and use of a drug.    Apparently we no longer do
that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.




 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding
of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.


It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.


 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not
all.   We have FDA approval processes for good reason.   If for
example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control
medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn
into a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I
know data like that is certainly not available yet.




 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?

I don't know the answer to that.  I'm not comfortable with that behavior 
either.  It goes both ways though.  Plenty of memes out there accusing 
people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

believe this 
> topic is nearly that cut and dried.  
>  
> As Chuck mentioned, unfortunately this is a somewhat political topic.   I 
> don’t understand why, other than the fact that some react more harshly to 
> being told they have to do something.   This should be a scientific 
> discussion.   If definitely shouldn’t be about public shame.   We don’t know 
> the medical situation of those that chose not to participate in an 
> experimental medical treatment.
>  
> Regards,
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 1:02 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Cc: Chuck McCown 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit unvaccinated...
> How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?
>  
>  
> From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start 
> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer that 
> you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>  
>  
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson  
> wrote:
> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when 
> it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people have 
> convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are 
> somehow a liberal thing. 
>  
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins. 
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>  
>  
>  
> -- 
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>  
>  
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

,
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 1:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit unvaccinated...
How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?


From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start saying 
"take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer that you 
don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:
That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when it 
comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people have 
convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are 
somehow a liberal thing.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit unvaccinated...
How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?


From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start saying 
"take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer that you 
don't so there are less of you to vote next go around". 


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson  
wrote:

  That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when 
it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people have 
convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are 
somehow a liberal thing.  

  On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.  
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start
saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer
that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
>> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>> --
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
>
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>


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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jay Weekley]

I have a relative that gave Covid to two of her children, mom and me.  
Mom was in the hospital for four days but made a full recovery.  The 
relative is reluctant to get the vaccine because she had varicose vein 
surgery years ago and fears blood clots. I've reminded the relative that 
she can catch it again and give it to other people again.  Hopefully the 
come around.


Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have a sister that is 79, never a mask, never a vaccine.  Covid is a 
hoax.  So are electric cars.  Her own kid is deaf because she was 
exposed to German Measles when pregnant.  One would think she would be 
all in on vaccinations.
Among my younger employees it is difficult.  One of them was going on 
about have mrna reprograms your body and can do all kinds of things to 
you.  I asked him if he had MMR or any of the childhood vaccines.  He 
admitted he did.  Then are they not taking over the body.  No but they 
are not machines like mrna...
I asked him if he knew how a vaccine worked, he said it is a chemical 
that floats in your blood and kills bad bugs.

So I used the following analogy on him.
Virus’ are like time bombs.  clock, batteries, wires (red and blue) 
explosives.  And they can make copies of them selves.
Your body has a bomb squad.  (Immune system) They see a virus they 
study it and learn how to defuse it.  As long as they can defuse the 
bombs quicker than they can replicate they can wipe it out.  Then they 
remember the bomb design for next time.
Old style vaccines, that are brewed and slowly grown in chicken eggs, 
put either a bomb with the actual explosives removed or a very weak 
bomb into your system for your immune system to study.  Then if you 
get attacked with the real thing your body can take car of the problem.
mrna vaccines are similar but they are 3D printed replicas from plans 
that can be emailed.  The body sees what it believes to be a 
functional bomb and learns how to defuse it.  Nice thing is we can 
print up a new one quickly.
Now, those that know much more than me about biology, microbiology, 
chemistry, genetics, virus’ etc will probably pick holes in my silly 
explanation but the kid actually acted like he learned something.  He 
is not spouting anti vax stuff at work any more.  Have not asked him 
if he got the vax but I hope.

*From:* Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 11:24 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb 
when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a 
subset**of people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and 
specifically the covid vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ
average will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I have a sister that is 79, never a mask, never a vaccine.  Covid is a hoax.  
So are electric cars.  Her own kid is deaf because she was exposed to German 
Measles when pregnant.  One would think she would be all in on vaccinations.  

Among my younger employees it is difficult.  One of them was going on about 
have mrna reprograms your body and can do all kinds of things to you.  I asked 
him if he had MMR or any of the childhood vaccines.  He admitted he did.  Then 
are they not taking over the body.  No but they are not machines like mrna...

I asked him if he knew how a vaccine worked, he said it is a chemical that 
floats in your blood and kills bad bugs.  

So I used the following analogy on him.
Virus’ are like time bombs.  clock, batteries, wires (red and blue) explosives. 
 And they can make copies of them selves.

Your body has a bomb squad.  (Immune system) They see a virus they study it and 
learn how to defuse it.  As long as they can defuse the bombs quicker than they 
can replicate they can wipe it out.  Then they remember the bomb design for 
next time.

Old style vaccines, that are brewed and slowly grown in chicken eggs, put 
either a bomb with the actual explosives removed or a very weak bomb into your 
system for your immune system to study.  Then if you get attacked with the real 
thing your body can take car of the problem.  

mrna vaccines are similar but they are 3D printed replicas from plans that can 
be emailed.  The body sees what it believes to be a functional bomb and learns 
how to defuse it.  Nice thing is we can print up a new one quickly.

Now, those that know much more than me about biology, microbiology, chemistry, 
genetics, virus’ etc will probably pick holes in my silly explanation but the 
kid actually acted like he learned something.  He is not spouting anti vax 
stuff at work any more.  Have not asked him if he got the vax but I hope.  



From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when it 
comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people have 
convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are 
somehow a liberal thing.  

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.  
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Carl Peterson]

That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when
it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people
have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

The largest, so far, Darwin Award is about to pop on the website...

On 7/23/21 10:05 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


Real life Darwin heory.


bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average 
will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.






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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

Anyone on that side of the fence at this point is drowning in the gene 
pool...


On 7/23/21 10:06 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


I have relatives who are telling me they don't think the mRNA vaccines 
have been tested enough. How many hundreds of millions does that take?



bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average 
will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.






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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

  
  
I have relatives who are telling me they don't think the mRNA
  vaccines have been tested enough. How many hundreds of millions
  does that take?


bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via
  AF wrote:


  
  

  If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global
IQ average will increase, right?  Always good when your team
wins.  

  
  
  

  


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Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

  
  
Real life Darwin heory.


bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via
  AF wrote:


  
  

  If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global
IQ average will increase, right?  Always good when your team
wins.  

  
  
  

  


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