Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

Late 1970s.

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 1:34 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I don't know when or where that was, but I'm 100% sure that punch out/punch in 
thing would be illegal today in NY State.  The DOL would argue that moving from 
one truck to another was part of your job and you'd need to be paid for that 
time.  I'd also bet a donut that there's an OSHA rule about running on a 
loading dock. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that there are other mitigating 
factors in play.


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/30/2017 12:42:28 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  Recumbent followed by elliptical followed by universal gym.  Screw the 
treadmill.

  But I still jog around (and really when I say run, I really mean jog) from 
building to building or truck to house if I am trying to set an example for a 
new hire etc.  

  When I was younger working at UPS, my supervisor would punch me out when done 
loading or unloading a truck, then I literally had to run across the hub to the 
next truck where they would punch you back in.  Not only did you not get paid 
for that time period you got your ass chewed if you took too much time getting 
there.  

  And if you ever told one of those guys to fuck off, you not only would you 
have been fired, you might have needed dental work too.  

  From: Sean Heskett 
  Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:05 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  Running is for children and thieves ;-)

  At lest that's what I always tell all my friends who try to get me to go for 
a jog with them lol.

  Personally I prefer the rowing machine to the damn treadmill at the gym.

  -sean 

  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do 
at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 
or keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to 
teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where 
the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time 
with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, 
wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see 
the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.



So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then 
took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire 
install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left 
the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not 
physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask 
because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  
would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process 
so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no 
hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00



I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three 
to four a 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

I don't know when or where that was, but I'm 100% sure that punch 
out/punch in thing would be illegal today in NY State.  The DOL would 
argue that moving from one truck to another was part of your job and 
you'd need to be paid for that time.  I'd also bet a donut that there's 
an OSHA rule about running on a loading dock.


I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that there are other 
mitigating factors in play.



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/30/2017 12:42:28 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Recumbent followed by elliptical followed by universal gym.  Screw the 
treadmill.


But I still jog around (and really when I say run, I really mean jog) 
from building to building or truck to house if I am trying to set an 
example for a new hire etc.


When I was younger working at UPS, my supervisor would punch me out 
when done loading or unloading a truck, then I literally had to run 
across the hub to the next truck where they would punch you back in.  
Not only did you not get paid for that time period you got your ass 
chewed if you took too much time getting there.


And if you ever told one of those guys to fuck off, you not only would 
you have been fired, you might have needed dental work too.


From:Sean Heskett
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:05 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Running is for children and thieves ;-)

At lest that's what I always tell all my friends who try to get me to 
go for a jog with them lol.


Personally I prefer the rowing machine to the damn treadmill at the 
gym.


-sean

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be 
rare.


I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have 
to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, 
then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.


Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to 
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give 
them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.


I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, 
in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.




From:Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about 
trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?




We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good 
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is 
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to 
do.




I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out 
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys 
ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the 
survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here 
and terminate. You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and 
tuning the radio was a breeze.




I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I 
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  
10 hours not counting drive time.




I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not 
a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another 
installer with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He 
came up to 3 hours for each install. So had I but we are both 
experienced.




So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and 
then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the 
entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. 
Install router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer 
questions but told him to not physically help and explained to the new 
guy that if he had questions to ask because the other guy is there to 
help him figure out a faster process and  would be talking with me 
after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can help 
him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00




I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock 
out three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours 
max when I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the 
new guy I drove a half hour to what I considered a hard install and 
did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

Recumbent followed by elliptical followed by universal gym.  Screw the 
treadmill.

But I still jog around (and really when I say run, I really mean jog) from 
building to building or truck to house if I am trying to set an example for a 
new hire etc.  

When I was younger working at UPS, my supervisor would punch me out when done 
loading or unloading a truck, then I literally had to run across the hub to the 
next truck where they would punch you back in.  Not only did you not get paid 
for that time period you got your ass chewed if you took too much time getting 
there.  

And if you ever told one of those guys to fuck off, you not only would you have 
been fired, you might have needed dental work too.  

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:05 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Running is for children and thieves ;-)

At lest that's what I always tell all my friends who try to get me to go for a 
jog with them lol.

Personally I prefer the rowing machine to the damn treadmill at the gym.

-sean 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

  I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do at 
least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 or 
keep them on piece rate. 

  Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

  I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



  From: Brandon Yuchasz 
  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
  I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway sorry) 
. But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to teach / 
train a new installer to work faster? 



  We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



  I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where the 
speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time with 
me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire 
down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the 
tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



  I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



  I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.



  So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then 
took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire 
install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left 
the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not 
physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask 
because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  
would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process 
so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no 
hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00



  I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three 
to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was 
alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half 
hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 
and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about 
done with the install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not 
throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at 
this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for 
sure.  I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack 
up the truck some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a 
family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install 
of the day. 



  Grabbed subway. S

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Sean Heskett]

Running is for children and thieves ;-)

At lest that's what I always tell all my friends who try to get me to go
for a jog with them lol.

Personally I prefer the rowing machine to the damn treadmill at the gym.

-sean

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:43 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide
> that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.
>
> I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do
> at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to
> 4 or keep them on piece rate.
>
> Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?
> Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of
> drill sergeant treatment.
>
> I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in
> simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
>
>
>
> *From:* Brandon Yuchasz
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to
> teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>
>
> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he
> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>
>
> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where
> the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of
> time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install
> here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You
> could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a
> breeze.
>
>
>
> I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered
> a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not
> counting drive time.
>
>
>
> I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers
> permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a
> single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer
> with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3
> hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.
>
>
>
> So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then
> took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire
> install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I
> left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to
> not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions
> to ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster
> process and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed
> up the process so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is
> a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00
>
>
>
> I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on
> installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out
> three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when
> I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove
> a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done
> at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was
> just about done with the install but the truck was spread around the
> driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was
> going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was
> going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly
> asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  This was done for selfish
> reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also because we had a
> between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.
>
>
>
> Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.
>
>
>
> I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot
> 100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never
> seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the
> house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.
> And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the
> back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the
> doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with him so he told him to help
> with the ladder and then instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I
> walked out the ladder was up and the supervisor was at the top screwing
> down the tripod. I grabbed the mast, mounted the 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jaime Solorza]

Hand is up!!

On Apr 30, 2017 9:03 AM, "Jaime Solorza" <losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well this old dude can usually out work and out last most younger
> workers.  Experience keeps you from simple mistakes that cause delays. For
> example , getting in roof with no charge in drill battery, forgetting right
> tools for job, climbing tower with not enough tools or mounting gear
> accessoriesDiscpline keeps you on track, focus keeps you safe, and
> skipping the bullshit chats allows you to get task completed in decent time
> frame.   The 6Ps is the key ...Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor
> Performance... Enough already, heading to Good Luck Cafe for breakfast
>
> On Apr 24, 2017 9:52 AM, "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't care whether or not they run, but as long as they aren't wasting
>> time. There's a big difference between the guy that walks as slow as he can
>> just so that he can get out of doing some work back at the office, or get
>> some over time and the guy that's working out the best way to run the
>> cable, or calling the office to find out if there are any service calls we
>> need him to do while he's walking back to the truck.
>>
>> What it really comes down to, is whether or not an employee cares about
>> what kind of work they do, or if they just want to do everything in the
>> easiest possible way and don't really care if what it looks like or how
>> long it takes.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Carl Peterson <
>> cpeter...@portnetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I
>>> would try being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you to.  You
>>> can prompt him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take all day if you
>>> need to but make him think through the install.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I never suggested not being safe.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:
>>>>
>>>> “This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck
>>>> heading home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss
>>>> with this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always
>>>> run to the truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly
>>>> does not run and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. “
>>>>
>>>> So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am 100%
>>>> on the side of the employer here.
>>>> Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to fuck
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not even
>>>> running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency.  How can anyone
>>>> defend that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Josh Reynolds
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>>>
>>>> Am soldier, no longer enlisted.
>>>>
>>>> No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder
>>>> accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their
>>>> head by trying to rush on the job site.
>>>>
>>>> Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit
>>>> hole, it really puts things into perspective.
>>>>
>>>> Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's
>>>> your call and you get to live with that for better or worse.
>>>>
>>>> - Josh
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to
>>>>> hustle) in the following jobs?
>>>>> Soldier
>>>>> Life Guard
>>>>> Fireman
>>>>> EMT
>>>>> Cop
>>>>> Airline baggage loader, unloader
>>>>> Airline fuel line operator
>>>>> Personal Trainer
>>>>> Flat Rate Roofer
>>>>> Athlete
>>>>> ER Nurse
>>>>> Fast Food w

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Paul McCall]

+1

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 11:03 AM
To: Animal Farm <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Well this old dude can usually out work and out last most younger workers.  
Experience keeps you from simple mistakes that cause delays. For example , 
getting in roof with no charge in drill battery, forgetting right tools for 
job, climbing tower with not enough tools or mounting gear 
accessoriesDiscpline keeps you on track, focus keeps you safe, and skipping 
the bullshit chats allows you to get task completed in decent time frame.   The 
6Ps is the key ...Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance... Enough 
already, heading to Good Luck Cafe for breakfast

On Apr 24, 2017 9:52 AM, "Mathew Howard" 
<mhoward...@gmail.com<mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I don't care whether or not they run, but as long as they aren't wasting time. 
There's a big difference between the guy that walks as slow as he can just so 
that he can get out of doing some work back at the office, or get some over 
time and the guy that's working out the best way to run the cable, or calling 
the office to find out if there are any service calls we need him to do while 
he's walking back to the truck.
What it really comes down to, is whether or not an employee cares about what 
kind of work they do, or if they just want to do everything in the easiest 
possible way and don't really care if what it looks like or how long it takes.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Carl Peterson 
<cpeter...@portnetworks.com<mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:
I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I would try 
being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you to.  You can prompt 
him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take all day if you need to but make 
him think through the install.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
I never suggested not being safe.

Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:
“This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck heading 
home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.

Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss with this 
guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always run to the 
truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does not run 
and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. “
So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am 100% on the 
side of the employer here.
Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to fuck off.

The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not even 
running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency.  How can anyone 
defend that?


From: Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Am soldier, no longer enlisted.

No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder accident 
or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their head by 
trying to rush on the job site.

Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit hole, it 
really puts things into perspective.

Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's your call 
and you get to live with that for better or worse.
- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle) in the 
following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.

I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.

I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have some 
spring in their step.

From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.

At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you get 
more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I woul

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jaime Solorza]

Well this old dude can usually out work and out last most younger workers.
Experience keeps you from simple mistakes that cause delays. For example ,
getting in roof with no charge in drill battery, forgetting right tools for
job, climbing tower with not enough tools or mounting gear
accessoriesDiscpline keeps you on track, focus keeps you safe, and
skipping the bullshit chats allows you to get task completed in decent time
frame.   The 6Ps is the key ...Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor
Performance... Enough already, heading to Good Luck Cafe for breakfast

On Apr 24, 2017 9:52 AM, "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't care whether or not they run, but as long as they aren't wasting
> time. There's a big difference between the guy that walks as slow as he can
> just so that he can get out of doing some work back at the office, or get
> some over time and the guy that's working out the best way to run the
> cable, or calling the office to find out if there are any service calls we
> need him to do while he's walking back to the truck.
>
> What it really comes down to, is whether or not an employee cares about
> what kind of work they do, or if they just want to do everything in the
> easiest possible way and don't really care if what it looks like or how
> long it takes.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Carl Peterson <
> cpeter...@portnetworks.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I
>> would try being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you to.  You
>> can prompt him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take all day if you
>> need to but make him think through the install.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I never suggested not being safe.
>>>
>>> Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:
>>>
>>> “This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck
>>> heading home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss with
>>> this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always run
>>> to the truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does
>>> not run and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. “
>>>
>>> So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am 100%
>>> on the side of the employer here.
>>> Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to fuck
>>> off.
>>>
>>> The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not even
>>> running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency.  How can anyone
>>> defend that?
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Josh Reynolds
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>>
>>> Am soldier, no longer enlisted.
>>>
>>> No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder
>>> accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their
>>> head by trying to rush on the job site.
>>>
>>> Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit
>>> hole, it really puts things into perspective.
>>>
>>> Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's
>>> your call and you get to live with that for better or worse.
>>>
>>> - Josh
>>>
>>> On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to
>>>> hustle) in the following jobs?
>>>> Soldier
>>>> Life Guard
>>>> Fireman
>>>> EMT
>>>> Cop
>>>> Airline baggage loader, unloader
>>>> Airline fuel line operator
>>>> Personal Trainer
>>>> Flat Rate Roofer
>>>> Athlete
>>>> ER Nurse
>>>> Fast Food worker during lunch
>>>> Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
>>>> Ranch hand staking hay.
>>>> Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
>>>> Meat cutter.
>>>>
>>>> I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to
>>>> jog/hustle/run.
>>>>
>>>> I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to
>>>> have some spring in t

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Paul McCall]

Like most things in life, there is a balance.  The mindset of time as a widget 
that can’t be replaced and that it represents lost opportunity (vs. a direct 
“time is money correlation”), is hard for some people to fully appreciate and 
it feels like pressure to them.  In reality, it’s the opposite.  Efficiency is 
freeing as an end result, but it does take effort to discipline yourself and 
accept that as a life commitment.

I find that teaching others from an intellectual standpoint, and having that 
just magically become a habit, is difficult.  It is better “caught than taught” 
as a good habit. The challenge is not having enough leaders to be in the field 
for someone to catch the habit from.

Paul

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:42 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I am 40, own my company, and I still run.  Also, Mel Payne, my old boss, used 
to yell at me to run or hurry.  It bugged me, but it only worked out bad once.  
I was aligning a 4' dish on Mt. Pisgah in Mantua, and the wind was blowing 
hard.  I was loosening the adjustment bolts and trying to get it to turn a bit 
to the right.  I was hooked up and had to repel down to this specific antenna.  
He was screaming at me to hurry up, as weather was getting worse.  He said 
"just push it as hard as you can!!" So I swung back on the rope and kicked it.  
It didn't move, but my leg broke.  I don't rush my guys.

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Jay Weekley 
<par...@cyberbroadband.net<mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net>> wrote:
Ok, everyone over 40 that owns their company and still works in the field AND 
runs all the time when they are on the job site raise their hand.

Jerry Head wrote:
Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.


On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle) in the 
following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have some 
spring in their step.
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you get 
more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, probably 
give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of 
working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to 
forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause you to 
end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get 
paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and often 
has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or
Les Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating
them like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on
the clock and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay
anyone to take their time.
*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to
start looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

No offense taken.  

And I doubt I have ever told an employee to run.  
But I have told them to show some hustle when dragging their butt, and that is 
never wrong for an employer to say. 

But I would fire anyone that told me to fuck off.  
By saying that they are saying “please fire me”.

Employers that do not say things that are needed end up with a bunch of 
employees not giving a full day’s effort for a full day’s pay.   

From: Timothy Steele 
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 7:30 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I've had a few of the jobs listed yes we had to hustle but even when I was in 
fast food I never had a boss disrespectful enough to have the nerve and say 
don't walk run is all I'm saying respect go's both ways with employees and 
employer you treat them like crap they treat you like crap that was the only 
point I was trying to make go ahead and take offense to that if you want but 
truth is truth I'm just the only 1 willing to say it because​ I don't need this 
list anyway it's just fun watching you all go crazy 



On Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 11:06 PM Jerry Head <li...@blountbroadband.com> wrote:

  Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.

   

  On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle) in 
the following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.

I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.  

I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have 
some spring in their step.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.  

At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you 
get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, 
probably give you a raise.  

But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of 
working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well. 

Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to 
forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause you to 
end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get 
paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and often 
has problems you will have to roll a truck for.

Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.


- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab 
or Tunex or ..

  Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them 
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they 
need to work efficiently.  

  It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone 
to take their time.

  From: Timothy Steele 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
  If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to 
run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to 
do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 
4 or keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jay Weekley]

Oh, to be 40 again.

Jeremy wrote:
I am 40, own my company, and I still run.  Also, Mel Payne, my old 
boss, used to yell at me to run or hurry.  It bugged me, but it only 
worked out bad once.  I was aligning a 4' dish on Mt. Pisgah in 
Mantua, and the wind was blowing hard.  I was loosening the adjustment 
bolts and trying to get it to turn a bit to the right.  I was hooked 
up and had to repel down to this specific antenna.  He was screaming 
at me to hurry up, as weather was getting worse.  He said "just push 
it as hard as you can!!" So I swung back on the rope and kicked it.  
It didn't move, but my leg broke.  I don't rush my guys.


On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Jay Weekley 
<par...@cyberbroadband.net <mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net>> wrote:


Ok, everyone over 40 that owns their company and still works in
the field AND runs all the time when they are on the job site
raise their hand.

Jerry Head wrote:

Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.


On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when
asked to hustle) in the following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to
jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an
installer to have some spring in their step.
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go
fast.  Do things perfectly in the least amount of time
possible.  That means hustle.  Why would you chose to
slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house? 
There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back

and forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just
jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  That
includes tool and supply organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you
do a day.  If you get more than the other guy and you drag
your ass, I would not can you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late,
BSing instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one
time...
*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons.
Rushing leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and
tying installs to pay with cause you to end up with the
install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they
get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work
that looks bad and often has problems you will have to
roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance
with no wasted efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or
FedEX or
Les Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing
than treating
them like an adult.  You own their work output when
they are on
the clock and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle. 
I don’t pay

anyone to take their time.
*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

hand is up

-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 8:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Ok, everyone over 40 that owns their company and still works in the
field AND runs all the time when they are on the job site raise their hand.

Jerry Head wrote:

Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.


On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle) 
in the following jobs?

Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have 
some spring in their step.

*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why 
would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house? 
There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not 
saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of 
movements.  That includes tool and supply organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If 
you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can 
you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead 
of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads 
to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause 
you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as 
they get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks 
bad and often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or
Les Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating
them like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on
the clock and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay
anyone to take their time.
*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to
start looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house
and you told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what
you want then go for it


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason
until they decide that it might benefit them, and even them
real hustle will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them
they have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once
they are doing 3, then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from
truck to house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal
jacket and give them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling” you actually have to
tell them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I
did anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how
you guys go about trying to teach / train a new installer to
work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer
with other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties
and has a good understanding of networking, computers and
even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on installs and
th

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jeremy]

I am 40, own my company, and I still run.  Also, Mel Payne, my old boss,
used to yell at me to run or hurry.  It bugged me, but it only worked out
bad once.  I was aligning a 4' dish on Mt. Pisgah in Mantua, and the wind
was blowing hard.  I was loosening the adjustment bolts and trying to get
it to turn a bit to the right.  I was hooked up and had to repel down to
this specific antenna.  He was screaming at me to hurry up, as weather was
getting worse.  He said "just push it as hard as you can!!" So I swung back
on the rope and kicked it.  It didn't move, but my leg broke.  I don't rush
my guys.

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Jay Weekley <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
wrote:

> Ok, everyone over 40 that owns their company and still works in the field
> AND runs all the time when they are on the job site raise their hand.
>
> Jerry Head wrote:
>
>> Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.
>>
>>
>> On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>
>>> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle)
>>> in the following jobs?
>>> Soldier
>>> Life Guard
>>> Fireman
>>> EMT
>>> Cop
>>> Airline baggage loader, unloader
>>> Airline fuel line operator
>>> Personal Trainer
>>> Flat Rate Roofer
>>> Athlete
>>> ER Nurse
>>> Fast Food worker during lunch
>>> Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
>>> Ranch hand staking hay.
>>> Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
>>> Meat cutter.
>>> I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
>>> I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
>>> some spring in their step.
>>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>> Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do
>>> things perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.
>>> Why would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the
>>> house?  There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and
>>> forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.
>>> Economy of movements.  That includes tool and supply organization.
>>> At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If
>>> you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you,
>>> probably give you a raise.
>>> But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead
>>> of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
>>> *From:* Josh Reynolds
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>> To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
>>> Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads
>>> to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause
>>> you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as
>>> they get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks
>>> bad and often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
>>> Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted
>>> efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
>>> "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
>>> In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.
>>>
>>> - Josh
>>> On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or
>>> Les Schwab or Tunex or ..
>>> Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating
>>> them like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on
>>> the clock and they need to work efficiently.
>>> It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay
>>> anyone to take their time.
>>> *From:* Timothy Steele
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>>
>>> If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to
>>> start looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house
>>> and you told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what
>>> y

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jay Weekley]

Ok, everyone over 40 that owns their company and still works in the 
field AND runs all the time when they are on the job site raise their hand.


Jerry Head wrote:

Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.


On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to 
hustle) in the following jobs?

Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to 
have some spring in their step.

*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do 
things perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means 
hustle.  Why would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the 
truck and the house?  There is absolutely no justification for not 
jogging back and forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just 
jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  That includes tool and 
supply organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  
If you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not 
can you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing 
instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing 
leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay 
with cause you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV 
subcontractors do, as they get paid per room/job as well. It's 
absolutely shit work that looks bad and often has problems you will 
have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or
Les Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating
them like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on
the clock and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay
anyone to take their time.
*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to
start looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house
and you told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what
you want then go for it


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason
until they decide that it might benefit them, and even them
real hustle will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them
they have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once
they are doing 3, then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from
truck to house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal
jacket and give them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling” you actually have to
tell them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I
did anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how
you guys go about trying to teach / train a new installer to
work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer
with other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties
and has a good understanding of networking, computers and
even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on installs and
the primary job he was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to
figure out where the speed issues were coming from. So I took
 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Timothy Steele]

I've had a few of the jobs listed yes we had to hustle but even when I was
in fast food I never had a boss disrespectful enough to have the nerve and
say don't walk run is all I'm saying respect go's both ways with employees
and employer you treat them like crap they treat you like crap that was the
only point I was trying to make go ahead and take offense to that if you
want but truth is truth I'm just the only 1 willing to say it because​ I
don't need this list anyway it's just fun watching you all go crazy

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 11:06 PM Jerry Head <li...@blountbroadband.com> wrote:

> Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.
>
>
>
> On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>
> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle)
> in the following jobs?
> Soldier
> Life Guard
> Fireman
> EMT
> Cop
> Airline baggage loader, unloader
> Airline fuel line operator
> Personal Trainer
> Flat Rate Roofer
> Athlete
> ER Nurse
> Fast Food worker during lunch
> Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
> Ranch hand staking hay.
> Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
> Meat cutter.
>
> I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
>
> I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
> some spring in their step.
>
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things
> perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why
> would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?
> There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not
> saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of
> movements.  That includes tool and supply organization.
>
> At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If
> you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you,
> probably give you a raise.
>
> But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of
> working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
>
>
> *From:* Josh Reynolds
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
>
> Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads
> to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause
> you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as
> they get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks
> bad and often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
>
> Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted
> efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
>
> "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
>
> In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab
> or Tunex or ..
>
> Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them
> like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and
> they need to work efficiently.
>
> It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone
> to take their time.
>
>
> *From:* Timothy Steele
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
> looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me
> to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide
>> that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.
>>
>> I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to
>> do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it
>> to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
>>
>> Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to
>> house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a
>> bit of drill sergeant treatment.
>>
>> I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in
>> simple and clear terms exa

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jerry Head]

Absolutely in 8 of those jobsif I were working hard already.


On 4/24/2017 9:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to 
hustle) in the following jobs?

Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to 
have some spring in their step.

*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do 
things perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means 
hustle.  Why would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck 
and the house?  There is absolutely no justification for not jogging 
back and forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show 
some hustle.  Economy of movements.  That includes tool and supply 
organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  
If you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not 
can you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing 
instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing 
leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay 
with cause you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV 
subcontractors do, as they get paid per room/job as well. It's 
absolutely shit work that looks bad and often has problems you will 
have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les
Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating
them like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on
the clock and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay
anyone to take their time.
*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to
start looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house
and you told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you
want then go for it


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until
they decide that it might benefit them, and even them real
hustle will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them
they have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once
they are doing 3, then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from
truck to house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal
jacket and give them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling” you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I
did anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you
guys go about trying to teach / train a new installer to work
faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with
other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and
has a good understanding of networking, computers and even RF.
The problem is that he is very slow on installs and the
primary job he was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to
figure out where the speed issues were coming from. So I took
him on site surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the
entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire down
here, across here in

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[chuck]

Pinkerton, that’s right.  I use a local company called Pilkington.  Got 
confused.  
I find it interesting that Carnegie’s story somewhat parallels Bill Gates 100 
years later. 
Disruptive technology, moves to deploy nationwide, going public etc.  Huge game 
changer for business in industry by both guys.  

From: Cameron Crum 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 3:51 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Actually it wasn't Carnegie, it was his right hand man Henry Frick who was a 
ruthless SOB. Carnegie was largely hands off at the time and Frick was really 
running the show, although Carnegie did know what was happening. Frick made the 
decision to bring in the Pinkerton's to break the strike and it went poorly 
with deaths on both sides. While the incident did cause a rift between Carnegie 
and Frick, I think is was the Johnstown Flood that Carnegie felt most guilty 
about even though it wasn't his direct action that caused it, and I think a lot 
of the blame was due to decisions made by Frick. I know this mostly because one 
of my best friends is married to Frick's great granddaughter. Interesting 
family history. 

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:04 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  One could argue that a management shooting employees that wanted to organize 
or strike has resulted in our current internet...
  This is the logic:

  Andrew Carnegie hired Pilkington guards to control or suppress a labor 
uprising.  Can't remember if it was a strike or organizing activities.  One of 
the Pilkington guys shot and killed one of Carnegies employees.

  He was wracked with guilt for the rest of his life and attempted to atone for 
the act by building many free libraries across the nation.  those libraries 
undoubtedly were critical in the launching of careers of many in science and 
industry.  Probably some NASA guys in there.

  So, shoot an employee and get men on the moon, which led to the internet.

  Simple.

  -Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
  Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:50 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


  Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both
  ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews
  shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the
  other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN
  people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...

  On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Cameron Crum]

Actually it wasn't Carnegie, it was his right hand man Henry Frick who was
a ruthless SOB. Carnegie was largely hands off at the time and Frick was
really running the show, although Carnegie did know what was happening.
Frick made the decision to bring in the Pinkerton's to break the strike and
it went poorly with deaths on both sides. While the incident did cause a
rift between Carnegie and Frick, I think is was the Johnstown Flood that
Carnegie felt most guilty about even though it wasn't his direct action
that caused it, and I think a lot of the blame was due to decisions made by
Frick. I know this mostly because one of my best friends is married to
Frick's great granddaughter. Interesting family history.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:04 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> One could argue that a management shooting employees that wanted to
> organize or strike has resulted in our current internet...
> This is the logic:
>
> Andrew Carnegie hired Pilkington guards to control or suppress a labor
> uprising.  Can't remember if it was a strike or organizing activities.  One
> of the Pilkington guys shot and killed one of Carnegies employees.
>
> He was wracked with guilt for the rest of his life and attempted to atone
> for the act by building many free libraries across the nation.  those
> libraries undoubtedly were critical in the launching of careers of many in
> science and industry.  Probably some NASA guys in there.
>
> So, shoot an employee and get men on the moon, which led to the internet.
>
> Simple.
>
> -Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:50 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both
> ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews
> shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the
> other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN
> people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...
>
> On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>
>> When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
>> garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
>> turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
>> into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Robert Andrews]

That's very true..   The shooting incidents I was thinking about was the 
west coast longshoreman's strike that resulted in wholesale slaughter of 
union workers...




On 04/28/2017 10:04 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

One could argue that a management shooting employees that wanted to
organize or strike has resulted in our current internet...
This is the logic:

Andrew Carnegie hired Pilkington guards to control or suppress a labor
uprising.  Can't remember if it was a strike or organizing activities.
One of the Pilkington guys shot and killed one of Carnegies employees.

He was wracked with guilt for the rest of his life and attempted to
atone for the act by building many free libraries across the nation.
those libraries undoubtedly were critical in the launching of careers of
many in science and industry.  Probably some NASA guys in there.

So, shoot an employee and get men on the moon, which led to the internet.

Simple.

-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:50 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both
ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews
shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the
other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN
people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...

On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[chuck]

That was a good one, I bought the book too.


-Original Message- 
From: Dan Petermann

Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 11:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

That reminds me of the old TV show, Connections.

I loved that show and it ended way too soon. I wonder it its kicking around 
on the net somewhere���.


On Apr 28, 2017, at 11:04 AM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

One could argue that a management shooting employees that wanted to 
organize or strike has resulted in our current internet...

This is the logic:

Andrew Carnegie hired Pilkington guards to control or suppress a labor 
uprising.  Can't remember if it was a strike or organizing activities. 
One of the Pilkington guys shot and killed one of Carnegies employees.


He was wracked with guilt for the rest of his life and attempted to atone 
for the act by building many free libraries across the nation.  those 
libraries undoubtedly were critical in the launching of careers of many in 
science and industry.  Probably some NASA guys in there.


So, shoot an employee and get men on the moon, which led to the internet.

Simple.

-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:50 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both
ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews
shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the
other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN
people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...

On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]]

Har Har Har...

Happy Friday guys,

Jim Bouse
Owner
Mobile IT Pro - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
j...@brazoswifi.com 

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 12:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Yeah, that guy is looking for a job in central TX

-Original Message-
From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 11:06 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Well, the guy that I mentioned earlier is no longer an issue.

He decided, on his own, to climb a customer tower without training, proper 
equipment, or instruction yesterday.
Had to let him go.

Apparently, the instructions of: "Nobody climbs towers except me and Chris" 
was unclear.

So  Anyone looking for a job in central TX?

Jim Bouse
Owner
Mobile IT Pro - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
j...@brazoswifi.com

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[chuck]

Yeah, that guy is looking for a job in central TX

-Original Message- 
From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]

Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 11:06 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Well, the guy that I mentioned earlier is no longer an issue.

He decided, on his own, to climb a customer tower without training, proper 
equipment, or instruction yesterday.

Had to let him go.

Apparently, the instructions of: "Nobody climbs towers except me and Chris" 
was unclear.


So  Anyone looking for a job in central TX?

Jim Bouse
Owner
Mobile IT Pro - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
j...@brazoswifi.com

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Dan Petermann]

That reminds me of the old TV show, Connections. 

I loved that show and it ended way too soon. I wonder it its kicking around on 
the net somewhere……….

On Apr 28, 2017, at 11:04 AM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> One could argue that a management shooting employees that wanted to organize 
> or strike has resulted in our current internet...
> This is the logic:
> 
> Andrew Carnegie hired Pilkington guards to control or suppress a labor 
> uprising.  Can't remember if it was a strike or organizing activities.  One 
> of the Pilkington guys shot and killed one of Carnegies employees.
> 
> He was wracked with guilt for the rest of his life and attempted to atone for 
> the act by building many free libraries across the nation.  those libraries 
> undoubtedly were critical in the launching of careers of many in science and 
> industry.  Probably some NASA guys in there.
> 
> So, shoot an employee and get men on the moon, which led to the internet.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> -Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:50 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
> 
> Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both
> ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews
> shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the
> other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN
> people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...
> 
> On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>> When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
>> garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
>> turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
>> into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).
> 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]]

Well, the guy that I mentioned earlier is no longer an issue.

He decided, on his own, to climb a customer tower without training, proper 
equipment, or instruction yesterday.
Had to let him go.  

Apparently, the instructions of: "Nobody climbs towers except me and Chris" was 
unclear.

So  Anyone looking for a job in central TX?

Jim Bouse
Owner
Mobile IT Pro - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
j...@brazoswifi.com 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[chuck]

One could argue that a management shooting employees that wanted to organize 
or strike has resulted in our current internet...

This is the logic:

Andrew Carnegie hired Pilkington guards to control or suppress a labor 
uprising.  Can't remember if it was a strike or organizing activities.  One 
of the Pilkington guys shot and killed one of Carnegies employees.


He was wracked with guilt for the rest of his life and attempted to atone 
for the act by building many free libraries across the nation.  those 
libraries undoubtedly were critical in the launching of careers of many in 
science and industry.  Probably some NASA guys in there.


So, shoot an employee and get men on the moon, which led to the internet.

Simple.

-Original Message- 
From: Robert Andrews

Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:50 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both
ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews
shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the
other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN
people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...

On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Robert Andrews]

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...   It goes both 
ways and always will..But rarely have union employees had crews 
shoot management..   Back in the 1910-1920 era, that was _not_ true the 
other way around...Now there were cases of unions shooting their OWN 
people to get non-unionized groups to unionize...


On 04/28/2017 09:13 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Larry Smith]

When unions were a "shield" for the workers to protect and
garner better conditions they were reasonable; once they
turned into the "club" to beat management and companies
into doing their will they became despickable (IMO).

-- 
Larry Smith
lesm...@ecsis.net

On Fri April 28 2017 10:59, Adam Moffett wrote:
> That's scandalous.  I have never experienced anything like that.
>
> I wasn't against unions until I was a young adultand in principle
> I'm still not "against unions", I'm against how far they seem to be
> reaching.
>
> In 1999 I was doing tech support for $8.50/hour.  I think I had 50%
> medical coverage.  I think in 2001 or 2002 Verizon's linemen went on
> strike.  The big deal was that they currently had 100% of their health
> insurance paid for by the company, and management wanted to make it 80%.
>   Any line work during the strike was done by managers or contractors.
>
> I had difficulty sympathizing with people who already had it way better
> than normal and it wasn't enough.  I heard things later that made me
> straight up angry: Some of the linesmen on strike (allegedly) committed
> acts of sabotage just to create problems that there wasn't enough labor
> to solve.  I heard from a local field tech that she was told by the
> union to only complete x number of work orders per day (I think it was
> 2), and to deliberately waste time if they were in danger of
> accomplishing too much.
>
> meanwhile I'm busting my ass for 1/3 of the money and half the
> bennies they get.  It's really colored my opinion.  To me union == lazy
> crybabies.  I understand that unions were largely responsible for
> raising the standard of living in the USA, but I feel like now they've
> got it made and it's still not enough for them.
>
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message --
> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 4/28/2017 11:30:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> >I was kinda almost union once.  Worked for UPS as a seasonal sorter
> >truck loader in their PDX hub.  Couple of teamsters came in the truck I
> >was loading. Threatened me that if I did not join the union I would
> >find working there difficult, extracted some cash from me to fund the
> >united way and then left.  That was my last day last shift.  And I have
> >NEVER given to united way since.
> >
> >From:Jerry Head
> >Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:27 AM
> >To:af@afmug.com
> >Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
> >
> >You clearly are non-union.
> >
> >On 4/24/2017 8:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> >>Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les
> >>Schwab or Tunex or ..
> >>
> >>Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them
> >>like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock
> >>and they need to work efficiently.
> >>
> >>It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay
> >>anyone to take their time.
> >>
> >>From:Timothy Steele
> >>Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
> >>To:af@afmug.com
> >>Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
> >>
> >>If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
> >>looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you
> >>told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then
> >>go for it
> >>
> >>On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
> >>>You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they
> >>>decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be
> >>>rare.
> >>>
> >>>I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have
> >>>to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3,
> >>>then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
> >>>
> >>>Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to
> >>>house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give
> >>>them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
> >>>
> >>>I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them,
> >>>in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>From:Brandon Yuchasz
> >>>Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
> >>>To:af@afmug.com
> >>>Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
> >>>I was going to type a long 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[chuck]

Technicians at Pacific Northwest Bell used to save the bad FETRONS (solid state 
replacements for vacuum tubes used on long distance carrier lines).  When they 
went on strike they would randomly put bad FETRONS throughout the analog 
carrier channel cards.  I was told this personally by my counterpart that 
worked in The Dalles, Oregon central office.  I heard the same from a Western 
Union technician.  

Fun days for the managers that had to perform the work during the strike.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 9:59 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

That's scandalous.  I have never experienced anything like that.  


I wasn't against unions until I was a young adultand in principle I'm still 
not "against unions", I'm against how far they seem to be reaching.


In 1999 I was doing tech support for $8.50/hour.  I think I had 50% medical 
coverage.  I think in 2001 or 2002 Verizon's linemen went on strike.  The big 
deal was that they currently had 100% of their health insurance paid for by the 
company, and management wanted to make it 80%.  Any line work during the strike 
was done by managers or contractors.  

I had difficulty sympathizing with people who already had it way better than 
normal and it wasn't enough.  I heard things later that made me straight up 
angry: Some of the linesmen on strike (allegedly) committed acts of sabotage 
just to create problems that there wasn't enough labor to solve.  I heard from 
a local field tech that she was told by the union to only complete x number of 
work orders per day (I think it was 2), and to deliberately waste time if they 
were in danger of accomplishing too much.


meanwhile I'm busting my ass for 1/3 of the money and half the bennies they 
get.  It's really colored my opinion.  To me union == lazy crybabies.  I 
understand that unions were largely responsible for raising the standard of 
living in the USA, but I feel like now they've got it made and it's still not 
enough for them.






-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/28/2017 11:30:19 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  I was kinda almost union once.  Worked for UPS as a seasonal sorter truck 
loader in their PDX hub.  Couple of teamsters came in the truck I was loading. 
Threatened me that if I did not join the union I would find working there 
difficult, extracted some cash from me to fund the united way and then left.  
That was my last day last shift.  And I have NEVER given to united way since.  

  From: Jerry Head 
  Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:27 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  You clearly are non-union.

  On 4/24/2017 8:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab 
or Tunex or ..

Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like 
an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they need 
to work efficiently.  

It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to 
take their time.

From: Timothy Steele 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to 
run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

  I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to 
do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 
4 or keep them on piece rate. 

  Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house? 
 Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

  I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



  From: Brandon Yuchasz 
  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
  I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to 
teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



  We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding 
of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



  I spent quite a bit of time wi

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

That's scandalous.  I have never experienced anything like that.

I wasn't against unions until I was a young adultand in principle 
I'm still not "against unions", I'm against how far they seem to be 
reaching.


In 1999 I was doing tech support for $8.50/hour.  I think I had 50% 
medical coverage.  I think in 2001 or 2002 Verizon's linemen went on 
strike.  The big deal was that they currently had 100% of their health 
insurance paid for by the company, and management wanted to make it 80%. 
 Any line work during the strike was done by managers or contractors.


I had difficulty sympathizing with people who already had it way better 
than normal and it wasn't enough.  I heard things later that made me 
straight up angry: Some of the linesmen on strike (allegedly) committed 
acts of sabotage just to create problems that there wasn't enough labor 
to solve.  I heard from a local field tech that she was told by the 
union to only complete x number of work orders per day (I think it was 
2), and to deliberately waste time if they were in danger of 
accomplishing too much.


meanwhile I'm busting my ass for 1/3 of the money and half the 
bennies they get.  It's really colored my opinion.  To me union == lazy 
crybabies.  I understand that unions were largely responsible for 
raising the standard of living in the USA, but I feel like now they've 
got it made and it's still not enough for them.





-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/28/2017 11:30:19 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was kinda almost union once.  Worked for UPS as a seasonal sorter 
truck loader in their PDX hub.  Couple of teamsters came in the truck I 
was loading. Threatened me that if I did not join the union I would 
find working there difficult, extracted some cash from me to fund the 
united way and then left.  That was my last day last shift.  And I have 
NEVER given to united way since.


From:Jerry Head
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:27 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

You clearly are non-union.

On 4/24/2017 8:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les 
Schwab or Tunex or ..


Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them 
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock 
and they need to work efficiently.


It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay 
anyone to take their time.


From:Timothy Steele
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you 
told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then 
go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be 
rare.


I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have 
to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, 
then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.


Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to 
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give 
them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.


I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, 
in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.




From:Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did 
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go 
about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?




We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good 
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is 
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to 
do.




I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out 
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site 
surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs 
during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in 
through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower from these 
sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.




I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I 
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  
10 hours not counting drive time.




I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and 
not a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another 
i

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[chuck]

I was kinda almost union once.  Worked for UPS as a seasonal sorter truck 
loader in their PDX hub.  Couple of teamsters came in the truck I was loading. 
Threatened me that if I did not join the union I would find working there 
difficult, extracted some cash from me to fund the united way and then left.  
That was my last day last shift.  And I have NEVER given to united way since.  

From: Jerry Head 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:27 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

You clearly are non-union.

On 4/24/2017 8:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

  Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab or 
Tunex or ..

  Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like 
an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they need 
to work efficiently.  

  It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to 
take their time.

  From: Timothy Steele 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start looking 
for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to run I 
would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do 
at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 
or keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to 
teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where 
the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time 
with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, 
wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see 
the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.



So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then 
took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire 
install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left 
the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not 
physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask 
because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  
would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process 
so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no 
hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00



I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three 
to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was 
alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half 
hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 
and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about 
done with the install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not 
throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at 
this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was going to b

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jerry Head]

You clearly are non-union.

On 4/24/2017 8:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les 
Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them 
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock 
and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay 
anyone to take their time.

*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you 
told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then 
go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until
they decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle
will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they
have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are
doing 3, then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and
give them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go
about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with
other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a
good understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The
problem is that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he
was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure
out where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site
surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs
during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in
through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower from
these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him
over  10 hours not counting drive time.

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the
customers permission. Both customers were happy with him and his
install and not a single thing on the install was done incorrectly
I took another installer with me and asked him to run the time
frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each install. So had
I but we are both experienced.

So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster
and then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him
through the entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and
terminate. Install router. I left the more experienced guy with
him to answer questions but told him to not physically help and
explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask because
the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process
and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to
speed up the process so we can help him. I should mention the
experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had
here. I left him at 9:00

I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time
frames on installs since normally I have a helper on my installs
and we knock out three to four a day. I felt like I got my
installs done in 3 hours max when I was alone but never really
timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half hour to what
I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30
and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was
just about done with the install but the truck was spread around
the driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this).
So he was going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and
packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the
truck some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I
have a family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit
for the final install of the day.

Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the
last job.

I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[David Milholen]

Yeah,

Got that T-shirt for sure. A few times. With Retired written somewhere 
at the bottom.


A soldier can still be efficient and fast in the same statement. 
Efficient dosent mean cut corners to cut safety.


I have 3 guys and 2 are very top notch and efficient. The other is a 
recently ETS E4 soldier. Very young and only had 4 yrs


under his belt with no mission time at all.

I had to use a different approach with this man because he also has 4 
kids and young wife and 2 kids not his. He always has


alot on his mind.

He did a job I had for a few years while serving.

So, long story short I explained exactly what we expect and the 
importance of time


management in order not to cause his fellow workers to pick up his slack 
or the action of such continued violation to such a problem will


land him at home explaining to his wife why he isnt working that day :)

  It seems to have help bunches because he is turning out at least 2 a 
day with a service call or 2 in between.


Occasionally I do get a little Drill sergeant attitude with my guys when 
something isnt done right or falls through the cracks.


Since Day one I have always tried to set standards in all we do which 
makes life so much smoother when getting quality and quantity done once.




On 4/24/2017 10:04 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

Am soldier, no longer enlisted.

No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder 
accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing 
their head by trying to rush on the job site.


Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit 
hole, it really puts things into perspective.


Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's 
your call and you get to live with that for better or worse.


- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to
hustle) in the following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to
jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer
to have some spring in their step.
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do
things perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means
hustle.  Why would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the
truck and the house? There is absolutely no justification for not
jogging back and forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run. 
Just jog, show some hustle. Economy of movements.  That includes

tool and supply organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a
day.  If you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I
would not can you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing
instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing
leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to
pay with cause you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV
subcontractors do, as they get paid per room/job as well. It's
absolutely shit work that looks bad and often has problems you
will have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no
wasted efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or
Les Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than
treating them like an adult. You own their work output when
they are on the clock and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t
pay anyone to take their time.
*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hir

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[David Milholen]

+1..

Bullets dont wait for slow mo.

Sometimes a little fire under the rump helps also.



On 4/24/2017 8:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les 
Schwab or Tunex or ..
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them 
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock 
and they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay 
anyone to take their time.

*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you 
told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then 
go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until
they decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle
will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they
have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are
doing 3, then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and
give them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go
about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with
other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a
good understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The
problem is that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he
was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure
out where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site
surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs
during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in
through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower from
these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him
over  10 hours not counting drive time.

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the
customers permission. Both customers were happy with him and his
install and not a single thing on the install was done incorrectly
I took another installer with me and asked him to run the time
frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each install. So had
I but we are both experienced.

So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster
and then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him
through the entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and
terminate. Install router. I left the more experienced guy with
him to answer questions but told him to not physically help and
explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask because
the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process
and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to
speed up the process so we can help him. I should mention the
experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had
here. I left him at 9:00

I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time
frames on installs since normally I have a helper on my installs
and we knock out three to four a day. I felt like I got my
installs done in 3 hours max when I was alone but never really
timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half hour to what
I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30
and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was
just about done with the install but the truck was spread around
the driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this).
So he was going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and
packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the
truck some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I
have a family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit
for the final install of the day.

Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the
la

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Paul Stewart]

Ouch … 6 people for an interview …. that would be tough! :)

At most, we have 3 people when hiring …. fast paced, keep it informal to 
increase comfort zone with the person being interviewed as you would be amazed 
what some of them say out loud when it’s “just the boys sitting around talking” 
kind of thing …

Had one about a month ago that the first question was “what does this job pay?” 
which is a major red flag for me …. needless to say the conversation ended 
shortly and cut that person loose as that was their only priority …


> On Apr 25, 2017, at 10:06 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
> 
> I once had two job candidates interview before a panel of about 6 of us for 
> the same job at the same time.  That was FUN!
>  
> Talk about competition!
>  
> Then we hired both of them.  Had already decided to hire both of them before 
> the meeting, but was feeling a bit sporting that day.  
>  
> From: CBB - Jay Fuller <>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:22 AM
> To:  <>af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>  
>  
>  
> I've always enjoyed hearing about the competition type programs at WISPA 
> shows.  Layne Sisk has one at Serverplus and some of the larger WISPS have 
> them.  I wish we had enough employees to do something like that.  We have 3 
> or 4 installers now but they work as teams (or alone), so it isn't really 
> fair to "judge them against one another..."
>  
>  
>> And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m not 
>> looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern 
>> generation has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are 
>> challenges to face and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own eyes 
>> as I have 4 young children.  The things they teach kids now, and the way 
>> they teach them, is way different than what I was raised to know, and even 
>> more disconnected from our fathers and their fathers before them.  Every 
>> generation will have the youthful ones, but I think the current youthful 
>> generation is being raised in a world where they are taught everyone gets a 
>> trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the employer, because you no longer 
>> have people competing for position and pride, instead you have groups of 
>> folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, we ALL should make 
>> $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal because we share 
>> the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. but Dan has also 
>> been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t care, Dan and I work 
>> right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he has 
>> guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately with at 
>> least one employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about the 
>> youth or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in our 
>> area.
>>  
>>  

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I once had two job candidates interview before a panel of about 6 of us for the 
same job at the same time.  That was FUN!

Talk about competition!

Then we hired both of them.  Had already decided to hire both of them before 
the meeting, but was feeling a bit sporting that day.  

From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:22 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.



I've always enjoyed hearing about the competition type programs at WISPA shows. 
 Layne Sisk has one at Serverplus and some of the larger WISPS have them.  I 
wish we had enough employees to do something like that.  We have 3 or 4 
installers now but they work as teams (or alone), so it isn't really fair to 
"judge them against one another..."


  And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m not 
looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern generation 
has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are challenges to face 
and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own eyes as I have 4 young 
children.  The things they teach kids now, and the way they teach them, is way 
different than what I was raised to know, and even more disconnected from our 
fathers and their fathers before them.  Every generation will have the youthful 
ones, but I think the current youthful generation is being raised in a world 
where they are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the 
employer, because you no longer have people competing for position and pride, 
instead you have groups of folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, 
we ALL should make $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal 
because we share the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. 
but Dan has also been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t care, 
Dan and I work right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he 
has guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately 
with at least one employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about 
the youth or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in 
our area.

   

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I had one of those once.  He said he was not going to train someone just to see 
them quit and get a better job than him.
We just ignored him and told him to train people.  

From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:18 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


We have a guy who refuses to train new people.
I'm not sure we know how to deal with that because, for the most part, we 
really really like him.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck McCown 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  At my peak, I had almost exactly 100 employees with half of them installers.  
We had new guys ride along with the more seasoned veterans for two weeks.  If 
their trainer gave us a thumbs up, they got a truck and were turned loose.  If 
the trainer said thumbs down, we gave them two more weeks and then they were 
let go if they did not turn it around.  You cannot let it drag on.  Cut them 
lose and move on.  I never had regrets after firing anyone other than “should 
have done that about 3 years ago”.

  From: Ben Royer 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:17 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I was 
raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not the 
current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a sense of 
pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the division amongst my 
team though, as I have young and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a 
team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely 
on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with 
most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, 
but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, 
but their installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ 
role, was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the 
end of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think 
that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from 
obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is 
satisfied, it’s a job well done.  

  As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.  We 
spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of who we 
are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they understand 
it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the actual physical 
structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, 
and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days 
with that tech, learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks 
as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing the whole 
job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have break out sessions 
as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on tower safety, and we do follow 
up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I 
tweak their training as needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, 
by 40 days or so, they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and 
then we turn them lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins 
for help, expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find 
the key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow 
because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a 
decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different tours 
by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of them, even 
though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to explain the 
goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch 
was just telling you that you have 5 options.  

  If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s time 
to let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are not cut out for 
this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, mixed with a level 
of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of things.  Military guys 
are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees are former military.  
Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that has the will power and 
determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to that 
process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact findings that was 
causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once you start to identify them, 
focusing some attention on those areas will quickly teach you on if they can

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

I will raise you...and call youon your debate

1)  I don't want to fire my guy, he is well trained, has been doing it about 5 
years and yes, from time to time we have issues but for the most part he does 
his job well.  Some of his time is not accounted for, that is a problem.

2)  Lets say I did fire him.  How much downtime is required to find someone new 
to replace him?  Ewww.
We really do need to find another tech to work the area (and we have tried), it 
is not easy.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Lewis Bergman 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 5:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


  OK. First I have to admit I did not read the enormous number of posts the 
original email elicited. Having said that and at the risk of saying exactly 
what someone else has already illustrated, I will boil it down to options and 
reasons.


  1. Fire him. After two months he probably isn't going to get a whole lot 
faster. First, nobody is going to be as fast as you. Maybe a 2/3 as fast if you 
are lucky. Of course you have to try and find someone better. But, if you think 
you can do better...  A good friend once told me nobody ever fired somebody and 
said "Man...I wish I would have done that six months later" It is always, "I 
should have fired that guy a year ago". Not sure this situation fits that but 
think about a year from now and things are exactly as they are now. What do you 
do?
  2. Keep him. Understand he is slow that drives me and you crazy but customers 
like him and from what you said he does a good job. Those two things are not 
easy to find. Maybe find a pay scheme that can work that to encourage a faster 
performance or at least not cost you as much if he is slow. Pay him piece meal 
work for every install completed. That way if he only does one a day it still 
costs you what you think an install is worth. There is a decent value in an 
installer you don't have to follow around all the time. 




  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:35 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

I dont think is lazier by default, just coddled. Nobody is allowed to hold 
them accountable for anything so they never learn. Theyre taught that their 
feelings matter, when they actually dont, not to the degree theyre led to 
believe at least. Those with good work ethics have brought our capabilities up 
so high that these who would normally have been culled by mother nature 
naturally are allowed to survive and ultimately taint the gene pool. 


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  I am a Boomer.  When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or 
beatniks or potheads.
  I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets.  
Learned a bunch from them.
  They were hard workers.

  Not sure when Gen X started.  But we had the “me” generation that was all 
about me and not you.
  Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair and 
clothes.

  Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be 
counted on to get their hands dirty.  
  At some point we had Millennials.  
  And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or unkind 
thoughts or ideas they don’t like.  

  Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting physically 
lazier?

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  I'm 37.  So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.  

  In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to be 
successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with Mom.  We'll 
be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and large I think 
you'll know what I mean. 

  In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have 
already moved back in with Mom.  Or they've gone to jail or they found a way to 
collect a check.  In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing only different.  
The 30+ year old employees will look better as a group because fewer 
non-hackers are standing next to them.

  People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that 
by now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie.  Instead we keep 
progressing.  There could *also* be a cultural shift towards lazinessor a 
cultural shift towards productivity.  It can't be measured just by looking at 
the group of twenty somethings in front of you.



  -- Original Message --
  From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
  To: af@afmug.com
      Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young even 
at 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majori

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

I've always enjoyed hearing about the competition type programs at WISPA shows. 
 Layne Sisk has one at Serverplus and some of the larger WISPS have them.  I 
wish we had enough employees to do something like that.  We have 3 or 4 
installers now but they work as teams (or alone), so it isn't really fair to 
"judge them against one another..."


  And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m not 
looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern generation 
has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are challenges to face 
and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own eyes as I have 4 young 
children.  The things they teach kids now, and the way they teach them, is way 
different than what I was raised to know, and even more disconnected from our 
fathers and their fathers before them.  Every generation will have the youthful 
ones, but I think the current youthful generation is being raised in a world 
where they are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the 
employer, because you no longer have people competing for position and pride, 
instead you have groups of folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, 
we ALL should make $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal 
because we share the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. 
but Dan has also been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t care, 
Dan and I work right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he 
has guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately 
with at least one employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about 
the youth or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in 
our area.

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

We have a guy who refuses to train new people.
I'm not sure we know how to deal with that because, for the most part, we 
really really like him.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck McCown 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


  At my peak, I had almost exactly 100 employees with half of them installers.  
We had new guys ride along with the more seasoned veterans for two weeks.  If 
their trainer gave us a thumbs up, they got a truck and were turned loose.  If 
the trainer said thumbs down, we gave them two more weeks and then they were 
let go if they did not turn it around.  You cannot let it drag on.  Cut them 
lose and move on.  I never had regrets after firing anyone other than “should 
have done that about 3 years ago”.

  From: Ben Royer 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:17 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I was 
raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not the 
current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a sense of 
pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the division amongst my 
team though, as I have young and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a 
team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely 
on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with 
most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, 
but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, 
but their installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ 
role, was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the 
end of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think 
that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from 
obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is 
satisfied, it’s a job well done.  

  As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.  We 
spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of who we 
are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they understand 
it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the actual physical 
structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, 
and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days 
with that tech, learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks 
as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing the whole 
job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have break out sessions 
as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on tower safety, and we do follow 
up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I 
tweak their training as needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, 
by 40 days or so, they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and 
then we turn them lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins 
for help, expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find 
the key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow 
because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a 
decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different tours 
by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of them, even 
though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to explain the 
goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch 
was just telling you that you have 5 options.  

  If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s time 
to let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are not cut out for 
this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, mixed with a level 
of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of things.  Military guys 
are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees are former military.  
Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that has the will power and 
determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to that 
process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact findings that was 
causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once you start to identify them, 
focusing some attention on those areas will quickly teach you on if they can 
adapt, or need to be let go. 

  Thank you,
  Ben Royer, Operations Manager
  Royell Communications, Inc.
  217-965-3699 www.royell.net

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:31 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  Not saying to rush for the sake

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

This isn't about installing, but I am a very time-detailed oriented person.  I 
pretty much do not take customer calls because of this.
I tend to leave my plate about 300% full and rush through as many things I can 
- while completing each task sufficiently.  

I have had times where I've wound up on the phone far too long and only 
completed 3 of my 7 tasks for the day.

That was a bad day.

BTW - repaired a tower at 2 am this morning, wanted to read through this thread 
i found on my phone

  - Original Message - 
  From: Ben Royer 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


  It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I was 
raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not the 
current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a sense of 
pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the division amongst my 
team though, as I have young and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a 
team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely 
on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with 
most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, 
but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, 
but their installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ 
role, was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the 
end of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think 
that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from 
obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is 
satisfied, it’s a job well done.  

  As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.  We 
spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of who we 
are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they understand 
it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the actual physical 
structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, 
and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days 
with that tech, learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks 
as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing the whole 
job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have break out sessions 
as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on tower safety, and we do follow 
up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I 
tweak their training as needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, 
by 40 days or so, they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and 
then we turn them lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins 
for help, expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find 
the key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow 
because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a 
decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different tours 
by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of them, even 
though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to explain the 
goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch 
was just telling you that you have 5 options.  

  If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s time 
to let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are not cut out for 
this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, mixed with a level 
of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of things.  Military guys 
are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees are former military.  
Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that has the will power and 
determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to that 
process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact findings that was 
causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once you start to identify them, 
focusing some attention on those areas will quickly teach you on if they can 
adapt, or need to be let go. 

  Thank you,
  Ben Royer, Operations Manager
  Royell Communications, Inc.
  217-965-3699 www.royell.net

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:31 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[George Skorup]

Millennials = generation derp. Oh wait, I'm 32. Don't care, I'm not a 
gotdamn millennial.


On 4/24/2017 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I am a Boomer.  When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or 
beatniks or potheads.
I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets.  
Learned a bunch from them.

They were hard workers.
Not sure when Gen X started.  But we had the “me” generation that was 
all about me and not you.
Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair 
and clothes.
Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be 
counted on to get their hands dirty.

At some point we had Millennials.
And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or 
unkind thoughts or ideas they don’t like.
Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting 
physically lazier?

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I'm 37.  So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.
In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to 
be successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with 
Mom.  We'll be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by 
and large I think you'll know what I mean.
In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have 
/already /moved back in with Mom.  Or they've gone to jail or they 
found a way to collect a check.  In which case the state is "Mom"; 
same thing only different.  The 30+ year old employees will look 
better as a group because fewer non-hackers are standing next to them.
People have been complaining about the next generation for so long 
that by now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie.  Instead we 
keep progressing.  There could *also* be a cultural shift towards 
lazinessor a cultural shift towards productivity.  It can't be 
measured just by looking at the group of twenty somethings in front of 
you.

-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young 
even at 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority 
of young kids, aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and 
want more money for less work, if they could get paid to sit at home, 
they would. Sure, one could make the argument the older generation 
has that group also, I can attest to that, as I have a few of those 
employees also. But I was simply speaking from a majority of what the 
employment pool has today.  I can assure you, at least in Central 
Illinois, there are more people that don’t want to work in the 
‘youth’ demographic, than people that want to earn their pay.
And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  
I’m not looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the 
modern generation has been taught that there are more shortcuts than 
there are challenges to face and build character.  I’ve also seen it 
with my own eyes as I have 4 young children.  The things they teach 
kids now, and the way they teach them, is way different than what I 
was raised to know, and even more disconnected from our fathers and 
their fathers before them.  Every generation will have the youthful 
ones, but I think the current youthful generation is being raised in 
a world where they are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody does, 
and that hurts the employer, because you no longer have people 
competing for position and pride, instead you have groups of folks 
getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, we ALL should make 
$15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal because we 
share the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. but 
Dan has also been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t 
care, Dan and I work right next to each other, and I deserve the same 
benefits he has guarantee that argument has been had by many 
business owners lately with at least one employee.  Not trying to 
start a long drawn out debate about the youth or culture, just giving 
an example of what I’ve personally seen in our area.

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net 
*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 10:36 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I'm gonna drift a bit now:
I take issue with the ageism.  There's a tendency to look down on the 
next generation and say they're all lazy bums.  You can find columns 
from the 40's describing the young people as lazy and immoral.  I 
know I've seen one from the 1890's decrying the horrible tendencies 
of "today's" youth drinking, getting pregnant, and having no desire 
to work.  Apparently every generation for at least a hundred year

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Lewis Bergman]

OK. First I have to admit I did not read the enormous number of posts the
original email elicited. Having said that and at the risk of saying exactly
what someone else has already illustrated, I will boil it down to options
and reasons.

1. Fire him. After two months he probably isn't going to get a whole lot
faster. First, nobody is going to be as fast as you. Maybe a 2/3 as fast if
you are lucky. Of course you have to try and find someone better. But, if
you think you can do better...  A good friend once told me nobody ever
fired somebody and said "Man...I wish I would have done that six months
later" It is always, "I should have fired that guy a year ago". Not sure
this situation fits that but think about a year from now and things are
exactly as they are now. What do you do?
2. Keep him. Understand he is slow that drives me and you crazy but
customers like him and from what you said he does a good job. Those two
things are not easy to find. Maybe find a pay scheme that can work that to
encourage a faster performance or at least not cost you as much if he is
slow. Pay him piece meal work for every install completed. That way if he
only does one a day it still costs you what you think an install is worth.
There is a decent value in an installer you don't have to follow around all
the time.


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:35 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I dont think is lazier by default, just coddled. Nobody is allowed to hold
> them accountable for anything so they never learn. Theyre taught that their
> feelings matter, when they actually dont, not to the degree theyre led to
> believe at least. Those with good work ethics have brought our capabilities
> up so high that these who would normally have been culled by mother nature
> naturally are allowed to survive and ultimately taint the gene pool.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
>> I am a Boomer.  When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or
>> beatniks or potheads.
>> I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets.
>> Learned a bunch from them.
>> They were hard workers.
>>
>> Not sure when Gen X started.  But we had the “me” generation that was all
>> about me and not you.
>> Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair and
>> clothes.
>>
>> Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be
>> counted on to get their hands dirty.
>> At some point we had Millennials.
>> And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or unkind
>> thoughts or ideas they don’t like.
>>
>> Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting physically
>> lazier?
>>
>> *From:* Adam Moffett
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>
>> I'm 37.  So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.
>>
>> In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to be
>> successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with Mom.
>> We'll be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and large I
>> think you'll know what I mean.
>>
>> In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have *already
>> *moved back in with Mom.  Or they've gone to jail or they found a way to
>> collect a check.  In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing only
>> different.  The 30+ year old employees will look better as a group because
>> fewer non-hackers are standing next to them.
>>
>> People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that
>> by now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie.  Instead we keep
>> progressing.  There could *also* be a cultural shift towards laziness....or
>> a cultural shift towards productivity.  It can't be measured just by
>> looking at the group of twenty somethings in front of you.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>
>>
>> Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young even
>> at 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of young
>> kids, aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want more money
>> for less work, if they could get paid to sit at home, they would.  Sure,
>> one could make the argument the older generation has that group also, I can
>> attest to that, as I have a few of those employees also.  

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Steve Jones]

I dont think is lazier by default, just coddled. Nobody is allowed to hold
them accountable for anything so they never learn. Theyre taught that their
feelings matter, when they actually dont, not to the degree theyre led to
believe at least. Those with good work ethics have brought our capabilities
up so high that these who would normally have been culled by mother nature
naturally are allowed to survive and ultimately taint the gene pool.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> I am a Boomer.  When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or
> beatniks or potheads.
> I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets.  Learned
> a bunch from them.
> They were hard workers.
>
> Not sure when Gen X started.  But we had the “me” generation that was all
> about me and not you.
> Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair and
> clothes.
>
> Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be
> counted on to get their hands dirty.
> At some point we had Millennials.
> And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or unkind
> thoughts or ideas they don’t like.
>
> Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting physically
> lazier?
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> I'm 37.  So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.
>
> In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to be
> successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with Mom.
> We'll be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and large I
> think you'll know what I mean.
>
> In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have *already
> *moved back in with Mom.  Or they've gone to jail or they found a way to
> collect a check.  In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing only
> different.  The 30+ year old employees will look better as a group because
> fewer non-hackers are standing next to them.
>
> People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that by
> now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie.  Instead we keep
> progressing.  There could *also* be a cultural shift towards lazinessor
> a cultural shift towards productivity.  It can't be measured just by
> looking at the group of twenty somethings in front of you.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
>
> Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young even at
> 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of young
> kids, aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want more money
> for less work, if they could get paid to sit at home, they would.  Sure,
> one could make the argument the older generation has that group also, I can
> attest to that, as I have a few of those employees also.  But I was simply
> speaking from a majority of what the employment pool has today.  I can
> assure you, at least in Central Illinois, there are more people that don’t
> want to work in the ‘youth’ demographic, than people that want to earn
> their pay.
>
> And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m
> not looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern
> generation has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are
> challenges to face and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own eyes
> as I have 4 young children.  The things they teach kids now, and the way
> they teach them, is way different than what I was raised to know, and even
> more disconnected from our fathers and their fathers before them.  Every
> generation will have the youthful ones, but I think the current youthful
> generation is being raised in a world where they are taught everyone gets a
> trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the employer, because you no longer
> have people competing for position and pride, instead you have groups of
> folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, we ALL should make
> $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal because we share
> the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. but Dan has
> also been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t care, Dan and I
> work right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he has
> guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately with at
> least one employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about the
> youth or culture,

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I probably would too, but my HUGE hands would save me.

-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 12:03 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I would break an ankle if I ran on uneven ground long enough unless I
had my braces on.

Carl Peterson wrote:
I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I 
would try being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you to. 
You can prompt him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take all day if 
you need to but make him think through the install.


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


I never suggested not being safe.
Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:

“This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in
the truck heading home in just under two hours. But that was
two guys and we ran.

Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a
loss with this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on
job sites. I always run to the truck back from the truck and I
think ahead. This guy defiantly does not run and nothing is
done with any sense of urgency. “

So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am
100% on the side of the employer here.
Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to
fuck off.
The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not
even running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency. How can 
anyone defend that?

*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Am soldier, no longer enlisted.
No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a
ladder accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice
and bashing their head by trying to rush on the job site.
Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world
shit hole, it really puts things into perspective.
Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well,
that's your call and you get to live with that for better or worse.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked
to hustle) in the following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to
jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an
installer to have some spring in their step.
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go
fast.  Do things perfectly in the least amount of time
possible.  That means hustle. Why would you chose to slowly
drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth. Not 
saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some

hustle.  Economy of movements.  That includes tool and supply
organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a
day.  If you get more than the other guy and you drag your
ass, I would not can you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late,
BSing instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons.
Rushing leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying
installs to pay with cause you to end up with the install
quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get paid per
room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and
often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no
wasted efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end,

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I am a Boomer.  When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or beatniks 
or potheads.
I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets.  Learned a 
bunch from them.
They were hard workers.

Not sure when Gen X started.  But we had the “me” generation that was all about 
me and not you.
Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair and 
clothes.

Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be counted on 
to get their hands dirty.  
At some point we had Millennials.  
And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or unkind 
thoughts or ideas they don’t like.  

Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting physically lazier?

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I'm 37.  So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.  

In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to be 
successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with Mom.  We'll 
be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and large I think 
you'll know what I mean. 

In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have already 
moved back in with Mom.  Or they've gone to jail or they found a way to collect 
a check.  In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing only different.  The 30+ 
year old employees will look better as a group because fewer non-hackers are 
standing next to them.

People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that by now 
we should have descended into a Mad Max movie.  Instead we keep progressing.  
There could *also* be a cultural shift towards lazinessor a cultural shift 
towards productivity.  It can't be measured just by looking at the group of 
twenty somethings in front of you.



-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young even at 
33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of young kids, 
aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want more money for less 
work, if they could get paid to sit at home, they would.  Sure, one could make 
the argument the older generation has that group also, I can attest to that, as 
I have a few of those employees also.  But I was simply speaking from a 
majority of what the employment pool has today.  I can assure you, at least in 
Central Illinois, there are more people that don’t want to work in the ‘youth’ 
demographic, than people that want to earn their pay.  

  And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m not 
looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern generation 
has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are challenges to face 
and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own eyes as I have 4 young 
children.  The things they teach kids now, and the way they teach them, is way 
different than what I was raised to know, and even more disconnected from our 
fathers and their fathers before them.  Every generation will have the youthful 
ones, but I think the current youthful generation is being raised in a world 
where they are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the 
employer, because you no longer have people competing for position and pride, 
instead you have groups of folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, 
we ALL should make $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal 
because we share the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. 
but Dan has also been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t care, 
Dan and I work right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he 
has guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately 
with at least one employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about 
the youth or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in 
our area.

  Thank you,
  Ben Royer, Operations Manager
  Royell Communications, Inc.
  217-965-3699 www.royell.net

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:36 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  I'm gonna drift a bit now:

  I take issue with the ageism.  There's a tendency to look down on the next 
generation and say they're all lazy bums.  You can find columns from the 40's 
describing the young people as lazy and immoral.  I know I've seen one from the 
1890's decrying the horrible tendencies of "today's" youth drinking, getting 
pregnant, and having no desire to work.  Apparently every generation for at 
least a hundred years has thought the ones coming after them were stupid and 
lazy.  

  Young people have things to learn, 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jay Weekley]

I would break an ankle if I ran on uneven ground long enough unless I 
had my braces on.


Carl Peterson wrote:
I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I 
would try being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you 
to.  You can prompt him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take 
all day if you need to but make him think through the install.


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


I never suggested not being safe.
Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:

“This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in
the truck heading home in just under two hours. But that was
two guys and we ran.

Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a
loss with this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on
job sites. I always run to the truck back from the truck and I
think ahead. This guy defiantly does not run and nothing is
done with any sense of urgency. “

So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am
100% on the side of the employer here.
Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to
fuck off.
The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not
even running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency. 
How can anyone defend that?

*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Am soldier, no longer enlisted.
No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a
ladder accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice
and bashing their head by trying to rush on the job site.
Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world
shit hole, it really puts things into perspective.
Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well,
that's your call and you get to live with that for better or worse.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked
to hustle) in the following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.
I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to
jog/hustle/run.
I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an
installer to have some spring in their step.
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go
fast.  Do things perfectly in the least amount of time
possible.  That means hustle. Why would you chose to slowly
drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth. 
Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some

hustle.  Economy of movements.  That includes tool and supply
organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a
day.  If you get more than the other guy and you drag your
ass, I would not can you, probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late,
BSing instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
*From:* Josh Reynolds
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons.
Rushing leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying
installs to pay with cause you to end up with the install
quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get paid per
room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and
often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no
wasted efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Josh Luthman]

Maybe *shrug*


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I thought it was "hire fast and fire faster"
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Josh Luthman" <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
> Sent: 4/24/2017 11:55:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> "First fast, hire slow" -Travis Johnson
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
>> At my peak, I had almost exactly 100 employees with half of them
>> installers.  We had new guys ride along with the more seasoned veterans for
>> two weeks.  If their trainer gave us a thumbs up, they got a truck and were
>> turned loose.  If the trainer said thumbs down, we gave them two more weeks
>> and then they were let go if they did not turn it around.  You cannot let
>> it drag on.  Cut them lose and move on.  I never had regrets after firing
>> anyone other than “should have done that about 3 years ago”.
>>
>> *From:* Ben Royer
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:17 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>
>> It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I
>> was raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not
>> the current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a
>> sense of pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the
>> division amongst my team though, as I have young and old, from all
>> different backgrounds.  I have a team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is
>> my senior employee that I’ve recently transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a
>> bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely on to train new hires, audit
>> installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with most issues mentioned,
>> I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, but the quality
>> lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, but their
>> installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ role,
>> was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the end
>> of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think
>> that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from
>> obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is
>> satisfied, it’s a job well done.
>>
>> As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.
>> We spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of
>> who we are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they
>> understand it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the
>> actual physical structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech,
>> now the Lead Tech, and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60
>> days of their 90 days with that tech, learning efficient ways to install,
>> and slowly taking on tasks as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working
>> into a role of doing the whole job while the Lead follows.  During this
>> time frame we have break out sessions as needed.  Early on I do a break out
>> session on tower safety, and we do follow up meetings with them and the
>> Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I tweak their training as
>> needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, by 40 days or so,
>> they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and then we turn them
>> lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins for help,
>> expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find the
>> key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow
>> because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a
>> decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different
>> tours by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of
>> them, even though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to
>> explain the goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all
>> towers, Dispatch was just telling you that you have 5 options.
>>
>> If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s
>> time to let them go, I’ve had to

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

I'm 37.  So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.

In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to 
be successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with 
Mom.  We'll be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and 
large I think you'll know what I mean.


In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have 
already moved back in with Mom.  Or they've gone to jail or they found a 
way to collect a check.  In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing 
only different.  The 30+ year old employees will look better as a group 
because fewer non-hackers are standing next to them.


People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that 
by now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie.  Instead we keep 
progressing.  There could *also* be a cultural shift towards 
lazinessor a cultural shift towards productivity.  It can't be 
measured just by looking at the group of twenty somethings in front of 
you.




-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young even 
at 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of 
young kids, aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want 
more money for less work, if they could get paid to sit at home, they 
would.  Sure, one could make the argument the older generation has that 
group also, I can attest to that, as I have a few of those employees 
also.  But I was simply speaking from a majority of what the employment 
pool has today.  I can assure you, at least in Central Illinois, there 
are more people that don’t want to work in the ‘youth’ demographic, 
than people that want to earn their pay.


And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m 
not looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern 
generation has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are 
challenges to face and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own 
eyes as I have 4 young children.  The things they teach kids now, and 
the way they teach them, is way different than what I was raised to 
know, and even more disconnected from our fathers and their fathers 
before them.  Every generation will have the youthful ones, but I think 
the current youthful generation is being raised in a world where they 
are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the 
employer, because you no longer have people competing for position and 
pride, instead you have groups of folks getting together saying, hey, 
Dan makes $15, we ALL should make $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, 
but Dan is my equal because we share the same title, and therefor 
should share the same pay. but Dan has also been here for 5 years, 
you just started... I don’t care, Dan and I work right next to each 
other, and I deserve the same benefits he has guarantee that 
argument has been had by many business owners lately with at least one 
employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about the youth 
or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in our 
area.


Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net

From:Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:36 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I'm gonna drift a bit now:

I take issue with the ageism.  There's a tendency to look down on the 
next generation and say they're all lazy bums.  You can find columns 
from the 40's describing the young people as lazy and immoral.  I know 
I've seen one from the 1890's decrying the horrible tendencies of 
"today's" youth drinking, getting pregnant, and having no desire to 
work.  Apparently every generation for at least a hundred years has 
thought the ones coming after them were stupid and lazy.


Young people have things to learn, but feel that they don't.  They make 
poor choices.  It's all part of learning.  It's not a problem with a 
particular generation, and it's not a cultural shift towards laziness.  
It's the young being youthful.


I'm not saying sloth should be forgiven, I'm just saying you have to 
teach/show them.  Maybe tell them to get the lead out, and see whether 
they do it or tell you fuck off.  If they tell you to fuck off and you 
fire them, then you've taught them a valuable lesson about 
consequencesor they don't learn and move back into momma's house.  
If they do it, then they've learned something else.  Maybe they've 
learned that the boss is a jerk, or maybe they've learned that 
expectations are higher than they thought but they have what it takes 
to meet them.  Maybe they learn both.


I, on the other hand, emerged from my mother's womb as 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

I thought it was "hire fast and fire faster"


-- Original Message --
From: "Josh Luthman" <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:55:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


"First fast, hire slow" -Travis Johnson


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
At my peak, I had almost exactly 100 employees with half of them 
installers.  We had new guys ride along with the more seasoned 
veterans for two weeks.  If their trainer gave us a thumbs up, they 
got a truck and were turned loose.  If the trainer said thumbs down, 
we gave them two more weeks and then they were let go if they did not 
turn it around.  You cannot let it drag on.  Cut them lose and move 
on.  I never had regrets after firing anyone other than “should have 
done that about 3 years ago”.


From:Ben Royer
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:17 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures. 
 I was raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the 
former, not the current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s 
about having a sense of pride for yourself and your work.  I can 
definitely see the division amongst my team though, as I have young 
and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a team of 6 
installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I 
can rely on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc. 
 I’ve dealt with most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly 
through jobs, can do 7 a day, but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got 
the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, but their installs are 
impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ role, was to 
find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the end 
of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think 
that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside 
from obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the 
customer is satisfied, it’s a job well done.


As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through 
osmosis.  We spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic 
orientation of who we are, and what are system is like.  I give some 
RF training, so they understand it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, 
there is science behind the actual physical structure of RF.  Then I 
pair them up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, and send them on 
their way.  They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days with that 
tech, learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks 
as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing 
the whole job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have 
break out sessions as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on 
tower safety, and we do follow up meetings with them and the Lead tech 
to see how they are progressing, and I tweak their training as needed 
to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, by 40 days or so, they 
are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and then we turn them 
lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins for help, 
expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find 
the key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys 
are slow because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of 
just making a decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to 
test 5 different tours by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that 
meant test all of them, even though he found a signal on the first one 
he tested, so I had to explain the goal is to get a signal, period, 
it’s inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch was just telling you 
that you have 5 options.


If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, 
it’s time to let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just 
are not cut out for this type of work, as it is a unique job of 
physical labor, mixed with a level of intelligence when it comes to 
the technical side of things.  Military guys are GREAT installer 
hires, some of my best employees are former military.  Everything can 
be trained, but hiring someone that has the will power and 
determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to 
that process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact 
findings that was causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once 
you start to identify them, focusing some attention on those areas 
will quickly teach you on if they can adapt, or need to be let go.


Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 <tel:(217)%209

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Josh Luthman]

"First fast, hire slow" -Travis Johnson


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> At my peak, I had almost exactly 100 employees with half of them
> installers.  We had new guys ride along with the more seasoned veterans for
> two weeks.  If their trainer gave us a thumbs up, they got a truck and were
> turned loose.  If the trainer said thumbs down, we gave them two more weeks
> and then they were let go if they did not turn it around.  You cannot let
> it drag on.  Cut them lose and move on.  I never had regrets after firing
> anyone other than “should have done that about 3 years ago”.
>
> *From:* Ben Royer
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:17 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I
> was raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not
> the current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a
> sense of pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the
> division amongst my team though, as I have young and old, from all
> different backgrounds.  I have a team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is
> my senior employee that I’ve recently transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a
> bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely on to train new hires, audit
> installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with most issues mentioned,
> I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, but the quality
> lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, but their
> installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ role,
> was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the end
> of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think
> that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from
> obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is
> satisfied, it’s a job well done.
>
> As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.
> We spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of
> who we are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they
> understand it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the
> actual physical structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech,
> now the Lead Tech, and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60
> days of their 90 days with that tech, learning efficient ways to install,
> and slowly taking on tasks as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working
> into a role of doing the whole job while the Lead follows.  During this
> time frame we have break out sessions as needed.  Early on I do a break out
> session on tower safety, and we do follow up meetings with them and the
> Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I tweak their training as
> needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, by 40 days or so,
> they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and then we turn them
> lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins for help,
> expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find the
> key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow
> because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a
> decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different
> tours by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of
> them, even though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to
> explain the goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all
> towers, Dispatch was just telling you that you have 5 options.
>
> If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s
> time to let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are not
> cut out for this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor,
> mixed with a level of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of
> things.  Military guys are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees
> are former military.  Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that
> has the will power and determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a
> huge advantage to that process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed
> the exact findings that was causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure
> once you start to identify them, focusing some attention on those areas
> will quickly teach you on if they can adapt, or need to be let go.
>
> Thank you,
> Ben Royer, Operations Manager
> Royell Communications, Inc.
> 217-965-3699 <(217)%20

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Ben Royer]

Not really ageism, merely an observation.  I consider myself young even at 33, 
so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of young kids, aged 
18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want more money for less work, 
if they could get paid to sit at home, they would.  Sure, one could make the 
argument the older generation has that group also, I can attest to that, as I 
have a few of those employees also.  But I was simply speaking from a majority 
of what the employment pool has today.  I can assure you, at least in Central 
Illinois, there are more people that don’t want to work in the ‘youth’ 
demographic, than people that want to earn their pay.  

And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing.  I’m not 
looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern generation 
has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are challenges to face 
and build character.  I’ve also seen it with my own eyes as I have 4 young 
children.  The things they teach kids now, and the way they teach them, is way 
different than what I was raised to know, and even more disconnected from our 
fathers and their fathers before them.  Every generation will have the youthful 
ones, but I think the current youthful generation is being raised in a world 
where they are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the 
employer, because you no longer have people competing for position and pride, 
instead you have groups of folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, 
we ALL should make $15 but Dan does more. Yeah, but Dan is my equal 
because we share the same title, and therefor should share the same pay. 
but Dan has also been here for 5 years, you just started... I don’t care, 
Dan and I work right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he 
has guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately 
with at least one employee.  Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about 
the youth or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in 
our area.

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:36 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I'm gonna drift a bit now:

I take issue with the ageism.  There's a tendency to look down on the next 
generation and say they're all lazy bums.  You can find columns from the 40's 
describing the young people as lazy and immoral.  I know I've seen one from the 
1890's decrying the horrible tendencies of "today's" youth drinking, getting 
pregnant, and having no desire to work.  Apparently every generation for at 
least a hundred years has thought the ones coming after them were stupid and 
lazy.  

Young people have things to learn, but feel that they don't.  They make poor 
choices.  It's all part of learning.  It's not a problem with a particular 
generation, and it's not a cultural shift towards laziness.  It's the young 
being youthful.

I'm not saying sloth should be forgiven, I'm just saying you have to teach/show 
them.  Maybe tell them to get the lead out, and see whether they do it or tell 
you fuck off.  If they tell you to fuck off and you fire them, then you've 
taught them a valuable lesson about consequencesor they don't learn and 
move back into momma's house.  If they do it, then they've learned something 
else.  Maybe they've learned that the boss is a jerk, or maybe they've learned 
that expectations are higher than they thought but they have what it takes to 
meet them.  Maybe they learn both.

I, on the other hand, emerged from my mother's womb as a fully formed grumpy 
old man.  So I know nothing of poor choices.



-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:17:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I was 
raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not the 
current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a sense of 
pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the division amongst my 
team though, as I have young and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a 
team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely 
on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with 
most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, 
but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, 
but their installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ 
role, was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the 
end of the day, the cust

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Mathew Howard]

I don't care whether or not they run, but as long as they aren't wasting
time. There's a big difference between the guy that walks as slow as he can
just so that he can get out of doing some work back at the office, or get
some over time and the guy that's working out the best way to run the
cable, or calling the office to find out if there are any service calls we
need him to do while he's walking back to the truck.

What it really comes down to, is whether or not an employee cares about
what kind of work they do, or if they just want to do everything in the
easiest possible way and don't really care if what it looks like or how
long it takes.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Carl Peterson <cpeter...@portnetworks.com>
wrote:

> I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I
> would try being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you to.  You
> can prompt him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take all day if you
> need to but make him think through the install.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
>> I never suggested not being safe.
>>
>> Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:
>>
>> “This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck
>> heading home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss with
>> this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always run
>> to the truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does
>> not run and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. “
>>
>> So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am 100%
>> on the side of the employer here.
>> Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to fuck
>> off.
>>
>> The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not even
>> running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency.  How can anyone
>> defend that?
>>
>>
>> *From:* Josh Reynolds
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>
>> Am soldier, no longer enlisted.
>>
>> No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder
>> accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their
>> head by trying to rush on the job site.
>>
>> Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit hole,
>> it really puts things into perspective.
>>
>> Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's your
>> call and you get to live with that for better or worse.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle)
>>> in the following jobs?
>>> Soldier
>>> Life Guard
>>> Fireman
>>> EMT
>>> Cop
>>> Airline baggage loader, unloader
>>> Airline fuel line operator
>>> Personal Trainer
>>> Flat Rate Roofer
>>> Athlete
>>> ER Nurse
>>> Fast Food worker during lunch
>>> Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
>>> Ranch hand staking hay.
>>> Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
>>> Meat cutter.
>>>
>>> I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to
>>> jog/hustle/run.
>>>
>>> I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
>>> some spring in their step.
>>>
>>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>>
>>> Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do
>>> things perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.
>>> Why would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the
>>> house?  There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and
>>> forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.
>>> Economy of movements.  That includes tool and supply organization.
>>>
>>> At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If
>>> you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you,
>>> probably give you a raise.
>>>
>>> But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing inste

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

I'm gonna drift a bit now:

I take issue with the ageism.  There's a tendency to look down on the 
next generation and say they're all lazy bums.  You can find columns 
from the 40's describing the young people as lazy and immoral.  I know 
I've seen one from the 1890's decrying the horrible tendencies of 
"today's" youth drinking, getting pregnant, and having no desire to 
work.  Apparently every generation for at least a hundred years has 
thought the ones coming after them were stupid and lazy.


Young people have things to learn, but feel that they don't.  They make 
poor choices.  It's all part of learning.  It's not a problem with a 
particular generation, and it's not a cultural shift towards laziness.  
It's the young being youthful.


I'm not saying sloth should be forgiven, I'm just saying you have to 
teach/show them.  Maybe tell them to get the lead out, and see whether 
they do it or tell you fuck off.  If they tell you to fuck off and you 
fire them, then you've taught them a valuable lesson about 
consequencesor they don't learn and move back into momma's house.  
If they do it, then they've learned something else.  Maybe they've 
learned that the boss is a jerk, or maybe they've learned that 
expectations are higher than they thought but they have what it takes to 
meet them.  Maybe they learn both.


I, on the other hand, emerged from my mother's womb as a fully formed 
grumpy old man.  So I know nothing of poor choices.




-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:17:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  
I was raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the 
former, not the current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s 
about having a sense of pride for yourself and your work.  I can 
definitely see the division amongst my team though, as I have young and 
old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a team of 6 installers, 
with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently transitioned 
to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely on to 
train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt 
with most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, 
can do 7 a day, but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that 
might take 4 or 5 hours, but their installs are impeccable.  The main 
reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ role, was to find a happy medium to 
all the different methods, so that at the end of the day, the customer 
is satisfied for many years to come.  I think that’s my major takeaway, 
is regardless of how long it takes, aside from obvious economics, as 
long as the job is a quality job and the customer is satisfied, it’s a 
job well done.


As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through 
osmosis.  We spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic 
orientation of who we are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF 
training, so they understand it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is 
science behind the actual physical structure of RF.  Then I pair them 
up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, and send them on their way.  
They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days with that tech, 
learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks as the 
Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing the whole 
job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have break out 
sessions as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on tower safety, 
and we do follow up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see how 
they are progressing, and I tweak their training as needed to address 
concerns or short comings.  Usually, by 40 days or so, they are ready 
to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and then we turn them lose to 
try it on their own.  You will always have call ins for help, expect 
that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find the key 
is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow 
because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just 
making a decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 
different tours by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant 
test all of them, even though he found a signal on the first one he 
tested, so I had to explain the goal is to get a signal, period, it’s 
inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch was just telling you that you 
have 5 options.


If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s 
time to let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are 
not cut out for this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical 
labor, mixed with a level of intelligence when it comes to the 
technical side of things.  Military guys are GREAT installer hires, 
some of my best employees are former

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Carl Peterson]

I'm in the anti-run crowd.  Thinking ahead is much more effective.  I would
try being his helper.  Don't do anything unless he tells you to.  You can
prompt him, i.e ask him what he needs you to do.  Take all day if you need
to but make him think through the install.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> I never suggested not being safe.
>
> Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:
>
> “This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck
> heading home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.
>
>
>
> Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss with
> this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always run
> to the truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does
> not run and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. “
>
> So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am 100% on
> the side of the employer here.
> Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to fuck
> off.
>
> The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not even
> running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency.  How can anyone
> defend that?
>
>
> *From:* Josh Reynolds
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> Am soldier, no longer enlisted.
>
> No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder
> accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their
> head by trying to rush on the job site.
>
> Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit hole,
> it really puts things into perspective.
>
> Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's your
> call and you get to live with that for better or worse.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle)
>> in the following jobs?
>> Soldier
>> Life Guard
>> Fireman
>> EMT
>> Cop
>> Airline baggage loader, unloader
>> Airline fuel line operator
>> Personal Trainer
>> Flat Rate Roofer
>> Athlete
>> ER Nurse
>> Fast Food worker during lunch
>> Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
>> Ranch hand staking hay.
>> Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
>> Meat cutter.
>>
>> I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
>>
>> I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
>> some spring in their step.
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>
>> Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things
>> perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why
>> would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?
>> There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not
>> saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of
>> movements.  That includes tool and supply organization.
>>
>> At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If
>> you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you,
>> probably give you a raise.
>>
>> But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead
>> of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
>>
>> *From:* Josh Reynolds
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>>
>> To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
>>
>> Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads
>> to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause
>> you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as
>> they get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks
>> bad and often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
>>
>> Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted
>> efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
>>
>> "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
>>
>> In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
&g

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

At my peak, I had almost exactly 100 employees with half of them installers.  
We had new guys ride along with the more seasoned veterans for two weeks.  If 
their trainer gave us a thumbs up, they got a truck and were turned loose.  If 
the trainer said thumbs down, we gave them two more weeks and then they were 
let go if they did not turn it around.  You cannot let it drag on.  Cut them 
lose and move on.  I never had regrets after firing anyone other than “should 
have done that about 3 years ago”.

From: Ben Royer 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:17 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I was 
raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not the 
current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a sense of 
pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the division amongst my 
team though, as I have young and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a 
team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely 
on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with 
most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, 
but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, 
but their installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ 
role, was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the 
end of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think 
that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from 
obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is 
satisfied, it’s a job well done.  

As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.  We 
spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of who we 
are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they understand 
it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the actual physical 
structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, 
and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days 
with that tech, learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks 
as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing the whole 
job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have break out sessions 
as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on tower safety, and we do follow 
up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I 
tweak their training as needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, 
by 40 days or so, they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and 
then we turn them lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins 
for help, expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find 
the key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow 
because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a 
decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different tours 
by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of them, even 
though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to explain the 
goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch 
was just telling you that you have 5 options.  

If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s time to 
let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are not cut out for 
this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, mixed with a level 
of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of things.  Military guys 
are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees are former military.  
Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that has the will power and 
determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to that 
process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact findings that was 
causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once you start to identify them, 
focusing some attention on those areas will quickly teach you on if they can 
adapt, or need to be let go. 

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:31 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Ben Royer]

It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures.  I was 
raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not the 
current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense.  It’s about having a sense of 
pride for yourself and your work.  I can definitely see the division amongst my 
team though, as I have young and old, from all different backgrounds.  I have a 
team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior employee that I’ve recently 
transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’.  He’s a bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely 
on to train new hires, audit installs, fix major issues, etc.  I’ve dealt with 
most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, 
but the quality lacks.  Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, 
but their installs are impeccable.  The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ 
role, was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the 
end of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come.  I think 
that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from 
obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is 
satisfied, it’s a job well done.  

As far as training new hires.  We have always done that through osmosis.  We 
spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of who we 
are, and what are system is like.  I give some RF training, so they understand 
it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the actual physical 
structure of RF.  Then I pair them up with a senior tech, now the Lead Tech, 
and send them on their way.  They spend the first 30-60 days of their 90 days 
with that tech, learning efficient ways to install, and slowly taking on tasks 
as the Lead tech assigns.  Eventually, working into a role of doing the whole 
job while the Lead follows.  During this time frame we have break out sessions 
as needed.  Early on I do a break out session on tower safety, and we do follow 
up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I 
tweak their training as needed to address concerns or short comings.  Usually, 
by 40 days or so, they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and 
then we turn them lose to try it on their own.  You will always have call ins 
for help, expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find 
the key is empowering them to make decisions.  Most of my slower guys are slow 
because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a 
decision and moving on.  I had one guy that was told to test 5 different tours 
by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of them, even 
though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to explain the 
goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch 
was just telling you that you have 5 options.  

If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s time to 
let them go, I’ve had to do that also.  Some people just are not cut out for 
this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, mixed with a level 
of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of things.  Military guys 
are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees are former military.  
Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that has the will power and 
determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to that 
process.  I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact findings that was 
causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once you start to identify them, 
focusing some attention on those areas will quickly teach you on if they can 
adapt, or need to be let go. 

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:31 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.  

At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you get 
more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, probably 
give you a raise.  

But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of 
working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well. 

Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to 
forgotten things

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I never suggested not being safe.  

Here is a fragment of the post that started this thread:
  “This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck heading 
home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.



  Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss with this 
guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always run to the 
truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does not run 
and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. “

So who are you being the advocate for in this situation?  Me, I am 100% on the 
side of the employer here.  
Sounds like some of you are on the side of telling the employer to fuck off.

The point being argued is not safety, not being abusive, it is not even 
running.  It is a slow employee with no sense of urgency.  How can anyone 
defend that?


From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Am soldier, no longer enlisted. 

No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder accident 
or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their head by 
trying to rush on the job site.

Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit hole, it 
really puts things into perspective.

Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's your call 
and you get to live with that for better or worse. 


- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle) in 
the following jobs?
  Soldier
  Life Guard
  Fireman
  EMT
  Cop
  Airline baggage loader, unloader
  Airline fuel line operator
  Personal Trainer
  Flat Rate Roofer
  Athlete
  ER Nurse
  Fast Food worker during lunch
  Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
  Ranch hand staking hay.
  Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
  Meat cutter.

  I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.  

  I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have some 
spring in their step.  

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.  

  At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you 
get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, 
probably give you a raise.  

  But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of 
working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

  From: Josh Reynolds 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well. 

  Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to 
forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause you to 
end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get 
paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and often 
has problems you will have to roll a truck for.

  Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

  "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

  In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.


  - Josh

  On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab 
or Tunex or ..

Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like 
an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they need 
to work efficiently.  

It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to 
take their time.

From: Timothy Steele 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
    To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to 
run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

  I would put them on piece rate or daily ra

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[George Skorup]

Yeah, I'm an employee, and I've been here for 13 years so I've seen 
almost all types of techs. You can expect most satellite installers to 
be lazy and do shitty work. Been there several times. Never again. 
However, there are sub-types of sat guys. The guys that started their 
own Dish/DTV/Wildblue/etc contracting companies and maybe had a couple 
employees of their own. Like any business owner, they want things done 
right and efficiently. So they are typically very fast and detail 
oriented. We picked up a couple over the years.


We had a couple 10 year guys that did everything, tower climbing 
included. Both of them could do an install in under 3 hours. 2 hours 
wasn't unheard of. So years of experience definitely comes into play.


Some guys get it instantly, most are average, and some are somewhat slow 
learners. Our lead tower and field guy came out of the military as a 
radio/satcom tech. In the beginning, it took him 4-5 hours on an 
install. I'd say after 5-6 months, he got to the point of looking at a 
job for a few minutes, planning it all out in his head and gets to work, 
just like the experienced guys. Again, things get easier and more 
efficient with experience.


Owners and experienced guys need to check your perspective. Someone else 
already said it.. new guys will never be as good or as fast as you. But 
you gotta give people a chance. If they're not up to standards after 6 
months, then I agree, think about letting them go. For an owner, sure, 
it's your business, so do what you feel is best for your company.


On 4/24/2017 9:07 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
I'm not an owner, I'm an employee.  I hustle because I never want 
someone to look at what I'm doing and say, "That Adam guy, he sure 
does suck."
I don't tolerate poor performance in myself, and I have a really hard 
time tolerating it from others.  I'm not a genius or a football star, 
I just don't give up.  I would not quit just because someone wanted me 
to try harder.  If he can do it, I can do it.


It's possible that I'm an insufferable bastard, but at least I know 
I'm pulling my own weight.


Tell me to run!


-- Original Message --
From: "Timothy Steele" <timothy.pct...@gmail.com 
<mailto:timothy.pct...@gmail.com>>

To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: 4/24/2017 9:53:22 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you 
told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then 
go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until
they decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle
will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they
have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are
doing 3, then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck
to house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket
and give them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys
go about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with
other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has
a good understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The
problem is that he is very slow on installs and the primary job
he was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure
out where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on
site surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire
installs during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across
here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower
from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him
over  10 hours not counting drive time.

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the
customers permission. Both customers were happy with him and his
install and not a single thing on the install was done
incorrectly I took another installer with me and asked him to run
the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each
install. So had I but we are

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Seth Mattinen]

On 4/24/17 8:02 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

I guess if you grow up playing video games in the basement, never
stepping outside to play ball or hike.  Getting a doctor's note to avoid
PE classes. Never participating in sports.  Never mowing lawns to make
some coin.

I guess you develop an attitude that employers only get whatever you
condescend to give them.
Yeah that will take you far.



I broke my arm to avoid PE in middle school, that's the man's way.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I would expect all installers, when the weather is decent and there is a 
long walk between the ladder and the truck, to move faster than walking. 
Where is their self resepect and pride in their productivity if they are 
dragging their ass.


But yes, how many perfect installs can you knock out each day.  That is the 
bottom line for me.
I want your truck to be clean and organized.  I want you to look clean and 
organized.  If you can outperform all the other guys and still drag your 
ass, point proven I guess, still a disgrace.


-Original Message- 
From: Robert

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:01 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I wouldn't expect someone to run.  But hustling is not running to me.
Hustling is thinking ahead, being prepared, _being efficient_.   I am
horrible about keeping my vehicle clean, but I know where everything is
and go right to where what I need is.   I don't clean the truck in the
field in front of a customer.   I do make sure all parts for any
installs that day are prepped before leaving the office.   Putting
something together sitting down in a chair with all the tools at hand
can save 10-20 minutes in the field.
Most delays that I see are with customers that get into the install
process and installers that don't get ahead of the customer.   The
overriding thoughts for the installer needs to be two things..   1) time
is money so if the install is a fixed price then the faster they get it
done the more they make.  A three hour install should feel like money
left on the table.   2) rework is double money out of every ones pockets
and installers should share in that loss.
So get it done, get it done right and in the least time possible.  And
as IBM drilled into me very young.   THINK   If the installer is driving
up to an install singing with the latest country song, they aren't in
the job.

On 4/24/17 6:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les
Schwab or Tunex or ..

Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and
they need to work efficiently.

It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don�t pay anyone
to take their time.

*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told
me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be
rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have
to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3,
then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.

Have you actually said �RUN!� when they were walking from truck to
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give
them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.

I believe in �management by telling�  you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.



*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go
about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to
do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site
surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs
during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in
through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower from these
sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over
10 hours not counting drive time. 



I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the
customers permission. Both customers were happy with him and his
install and not a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I
took another installer with me and asked him to run the time frame

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Josh Reynolds]

Am soldier, no longer enlisted.

No one is dying by not having internet, but they could die in a ladder
accident or cordless drill accident or by sliding on ice and bashing their
head by trying to rush on the job site.

Once you get shot at and blown up a few times in a third world shit hole,
it really puts things into perspective.

Your install numbers are not worth a life. If they are, well, that's your
call and you get to live with that for better or worse.

- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle)
> in the following jobs?
> Soldier
> Life Guard
> Fireman
> EMT
> Cop
> Airline baggage loader, unloader
> Airline fuel line operator
> Personal Trainer
> Flat Rate Roofer
> Athlete
> ER Nurse
> Fast Food worker during lunch
> Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
> Ranch hand staking hay.
> Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
> Meat cutter.
>
> I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.
>
> I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
> some spring in their step.
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things
> perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why
> would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?
> There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not
> saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of
> movements.  That includes tool and supply organization.
>
> At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If
> you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you,
> probably give you a raise.
>
> But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of
> working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
>
> *From:* Josh Reynolds
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
>
> Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads
> to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause
> you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as
> they get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks
> bad and often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
>
> Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted
> efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
>
> "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
>
> In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab
> or Tunex or ..
>
> Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them
> like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and
> they need to work efficiently.
>
> It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone
> to take their time.
>
> *From:* Timothy Steele
> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
>
> If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
> looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me
> to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
>> You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they
>> decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.
>>
>> I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to
>> do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it
>> to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
>>
>> Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to
>> house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a
>> bit of drill sergeant treatment.
>>
>> I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in
>> simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Brandon Yuchasz
>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / trai

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Robert]

I wouldn't expect someone to run.  But hustling is not running to me. 
Hustling is thinking ahead, being prepared, _being efficient_.   I am 
horrible about keeping my vehicle clean, but I know where everything is 
and go right to where what I need is.   I don't clean the truck in the 
field in front of a customer.   I do make sure all parts for any 
installs that day are prepped before leaving the office.   Putting 
something together sitting down in a chair with all the tools at hand 
can save 10-20 minutes in the field.
	Most delays that I see are with customers that get into the install 
process and installers that don't get ahead of the customer.   The 
overriding thoughts for the installer needs to be two things..   1) time 
is money so if the install is a fixed price then the faster they get it 
done the more they make.  A three hour install should feel like money 
left on the table.   2) rework is double money out of every ones pockets 
and installers should share in that loss.
	So get it done, get it done right and in the least time possible.  And 
as IBM drilled into me very young.   THINK   If the installer is driving 
up to an install singing with the latest country song, they aren't in 
the job.


On 4/24/17 6:57 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les
Schwab or Tunex or ..

Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and
they need to work efficiently.

It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don�t pay anyone
to take their time.

*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told
me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be
rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have
to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3,
then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.

Have you actually said �RUN!� when they were walking from truck to
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give
them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.

I believe in �management by telling�  you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.



*From:* Brandon Yuchasz
*Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go
about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to
do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site
surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs
during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in
through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower from these
sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over
10 hours not counting drive time. 



I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the
customers permission. Both customers were happy with him and his
install and not a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I
took another installer with me and asked him to run the time frame
in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each install. So had I but we
are both experienced.



So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and
then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through
the entire install. Radio here, wire down here�.. in and terminate.
Install router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer
questions but told him to not physically help and explained to the
new guy that if he had questions to ask because the other guy is
there to help him figure out a faster process and  would be talking
with me after the install about ways to speed up the proc

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I guess if you grow up playing video games in the basement, never stepping 
outside to play ball or hike.  Getting a doctor's note to avoid PE classes. 
Never participating in sports.  Never mowing lawns to make some coin.


I guess you develop an attitude that employers only get whatever you 
condescend to give them.

Yeah that will take you far.

-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:51 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

On 4/24/17 7:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.

I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
some spring in their step.



It's just the new attitude.

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Seth Mattinen]

On 4/24/17 7:46 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.

I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have
some spring in their step.



It's just the new attitude.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

"Fast Food worker during lunch"

I can make a Whopper like a boss.


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 10:46:07 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to 
hustle) in the following jobs?

Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.

I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to 
jog/hustle/run.


I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to 
have some spring in their step.


From:Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do 
things perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means 
hustle.  Why would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck 
and the house?  There is absolutely no justification for not jogging 
back and forth.  Not saying to sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show 
some hustle.  Economy of movements.  That includes tool and supply 
organization.


At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If 
you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can 
you, probably give you a raise.


But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead 
of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...


From:Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.

Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing 
leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay 
with cause you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV 
subcontractors do, as they get paid per room/job as well. It's 
absolutely shit work that looks bad and often has problems you will 
have to roll a truck for.


Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.


"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les 
Schwab or Tunex or ..


Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them 
like an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock 
and they need to work efficiently.


It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay 
anyone to take their time.


From:Timothy Steele
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you 
told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then 
go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be 
rare.


I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have 
to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, 
then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.


Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to 
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give 
them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.


I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, 
in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.




From:Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did 
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go 
about trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?




We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good 
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is 
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to 
do.




I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out 
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site 
surveys ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs 
during the survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in 
through wall here and terminate. You could see the tower from these 
sites so hanging and tuning the radio was 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

Can you imagine telling your employer to fuck off (when asked to hustle) in the 
following jobs?
Soldier
Life Guard
Fireman
EMT
Cop
Airline baggage loader, unloader
Airline fuel line operator
Personal Trainer
Flat Rate Roofer
Athlete
ER Nurse
Fast Food worker during lunch
Package sorter/truck loader UPS (I had this job once)
Ranch hand staking hay.
Subway sandwich maker during lunch.
Meat cutter.

I could be here all day listing jobs that require you to jog/hustle/run.  

I do not think it is in any way unreasonable to ask an installer to have some 
spring in their step.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:31 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.  

At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you get 
more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, probably 
give you a raise.  

But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of 
working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well. 

Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to 
forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause you to 
end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get 
paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and often 
has problems you will have to roll a truck for.

Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.


- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab or 
Tunex or ..

  Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like 
an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they need 
to work efficiently.  

  It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to 
take their time.

  From: Timothy Steele 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start looking 
for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to run I 
would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do 
at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 
or keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to 
teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where 
the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time 
with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, 
wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see 
the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



I s

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast.  Do things 
perfectly in the least amount of time possible.  That means hustle.  Why would 
you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house?  There is 
absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth.  Not saying to 
sprint or full on run.  Just jog, show some hustle.  Economy of movements.  
That includes tool and supply organization.  

At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.  If you get 
more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, probably 
give you a raise.  

But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead of 
working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...

From: Josh Reynolds 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well. 

Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to 
forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause you to 
end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they get 
paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and often 
has problems you will have to roll a truck for.

Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted 
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.


- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab or 
Tunex or ..

  Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like 
an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they need 
to work efficiently.  

  It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to 
take their time.

  From: Timothy Steele 
  Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start looking 
for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to run I 
would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do 
at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 
or keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to 
teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where 
the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time 
with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, 
wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see 
the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.



So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then 
took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire 
install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left 
the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not 
physically help and explained to the new guy

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Josh Reynolds]

To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.

Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads to
forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause you
to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they
get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and
often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.

Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.

- Josh

On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab
or Tunex or ..

Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like
an adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they
need to work efficiently.

It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to
take their time.

*From:* Timothy Steele
*Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.


If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me
to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide
> that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.
>
> I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do
> at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to
> 4 or keep them on piece rate.
>
> Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?
> Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of
> drill sergeant treatment.
>
> I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in
> simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
>
>
>
> *From:* Brandon Yuchasz
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to
> teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>
>
> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he
> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>
>
> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where
> the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of
> time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install
> here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You
> could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a
> breeze.
>
>
>
> I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered
> a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not
> counting drive time.
>
>
>
> I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers
> permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a
> single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer
> with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3
> hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.
>
>
>
> So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then
> took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire
> install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I
> left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to
> not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions
> to ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster
> process and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed
> up the process so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is
> a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00
>
>
>
> I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on
> installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out
> three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when
> I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove
> a half hour to what I cons

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

I just don’t like wasting time.  When I was an installer I ran every step, it 
was fun.  I liked to prove to the boss I was the fastest and best installer 
they had, and I was.  To me it was always a fun competition to blow away the 
older dudes.  
We used to have a work order coded of 232 (the FCC assigns general ledger codes 
to telephone companies).  A 232 was a complete install to a house that had 
never had service before.  Generally involved climbing a pole, attaching a drop.
Ladder on the house, attaching the drop.  Installing a protector and ground rod 
(called NID now-a-days).  Then going inside to run “station wire” from the 
protector to the phone.  Mount the “connector block” (no jacks, the phone was 
hard wired to the wall).  Test, visit with the lady of the house, clean up and 
head back.

I did a 232 in 24 minutes once.  I was proud of that record.  No one ever 
topped it or even came close as far as I know.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:07 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I'm not an owner, I'm an employee.  I hustle because I never want someone to 
look at what I'm doing and say, "That Adam guy, he sure does suck." 
I don't tolerate poor performance in myself, and I have a really hard time 
tolerating it from others.  I'm not a genius or a football star, I just don't 
give up.  I would not quit just because someone wanted me to try harder.  If he 
can do it, I can do it.

It's possible that I'm an insufferable bastard, but at least I know I'm pulling 
my own weight. 

Tell me to run!


-- Original Message --
From: "Timothy Steele" <timothy.pct...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 9:53:22 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

  If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start looking 
for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to run I 
would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



  On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do 
at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 
or keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to 
teach / train a new installer to work faster? 



We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where 
the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time 
with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, 
wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see 
the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.



So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then 
took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire 
install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left 
the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not 
physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask 
because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  
would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process 
so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no 
hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

I'm not an owner, I'm an employee.  I hustle because I never want 
someone to look at what I'm doing and say, "That Adam guy, he sure does 
suck."
I don't tolerate poor performance in myself, and I have a really hard 
time tolerating it from others.  I'm not a genius or a football star, I 
just don't give up.  I would not quit just because someone wanted me to 
try harder.  If he can do it, I can do it.


It's possible that I'm an insufferable bastard, but at least I know I'm 
pulling my own weight.


Tell me to run!


-- Original Message --
From: "Timothy Steele" <timothy.pct...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 9:53:22 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start 
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you 
told me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go 
for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they 
decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be 
rare.


I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have 
to do at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, 
then up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.


Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to 
house?  Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give 
them a bit of drill sergeant treatment.


I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, 
in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.




From:Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about 
trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?




We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good 
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is 
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to 
do.




I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out 
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys 
ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the 
survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here 
and terminate. You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and 
tuning the radio was a breeze.




I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I 
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  
10 hours not counting drive time.




I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not 
a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another 
installer with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He 
came up to 3 hours for each install. So had I but we are both 
experienced.




So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and 
then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the 
entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. 
Install router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer 
questions but told him to not physically help and explained to the new 
guy that if he had questions to ask because the other guy is there to 
help him figure out a faster process and  would be talking with me 
after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can help 
him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00




I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock 
out three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours 
max when I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the 
new guy I drove a half hour to what I considered a hard install and 
did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new 
guy.  When I got there he was just about done with the install but the 
truck was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I have been 
known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with 
paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I 
stepped in did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack 
up the truck some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and 
I have a family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for 
the final install of the day.




Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last 
job.




I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 
100s of installs togeth

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

Well then you would not be working for me.  Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab or 
Tunex or ..

Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them like an 
adult.  You own their work output when they are on the clock and they need to 
work efficiently.  

It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle.  I don’t pay anyone to 
take their time.

From: Timothy Steele 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start looking 
for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me to run I 
would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide 
that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

  I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do at 
least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 or 
keep them on piece rate. 

  Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  
Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of 
drill sergeant treatment.  

  I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in 
simple and clear terms exactly what you want.  



  From: Brandon Yuchasz 
  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
  I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway sorry) 
. But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to teach / 
train a new installer to work faster? 



  We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties 
as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.



  I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where the 
speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time with 
me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire 
down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the 
tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.



  I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 



  I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.



  So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then 
took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire 
install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left 
the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not 
physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask 
because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  
would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process 
so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no 
hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00



  I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three 
to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was 
alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half 
hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 
and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about 
done with the install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not 
throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at 
this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for 
sure.  I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack 
up the truck some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a 
family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install 
of the day. 



  Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.



  I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 100s 
of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never seen I 
prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the house.  
Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access th

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Timothy Steele]

If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start
looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me
to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide
> that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.
>
> I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do
> at least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to
> 4 or keep them on piece rate.
>
> Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?
> Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of
> drill sergeant treatment.
>
> I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in
> simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
>
>
>
> *From:* Brandon Yuchasz
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to
> teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>
>
> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he
> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>
>
> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where
> the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of
> time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install
> here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You
> could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a
> breeze.
>
>
>
> I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered
> a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not
> counting drive time.
>
>
>
> I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers
> permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a
> single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer
> with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3
> hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.
>
>
>
> So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then
> took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire
> install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I
> left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to
> not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions
> to ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster
> process and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed
> up the process so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is
> a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00
>
>
>
> I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on
> installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out
> three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when
> I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove
> a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done
> at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was
> just about done with the install but the truck was spread around the
> driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was
> going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was
> going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly
> asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  This was done for selfish
> reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also because we had a
> between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.
>
>
>
> Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.
>
>
>
> I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot
> 100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never
> seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the
> house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.
> And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the
> back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the
> doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with him so he told him to help
> with the ladder and then instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I
> walked out the ladder was up and the supervisor was at the top screwing
> down the tripod. I grabbed the mast, mounted the antenna and 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Chuck McCown]

You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they decide that 
it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.

I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to do at 
least 3 per day to keep their job.  Once they are doing 3, then up it to 4 or 
keep them on piece rate. 

Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to house?  Have 
them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a bit of drill 
sergeant treatment.  

I believe in “management by telling”  you actually have to tell them, in simple 
and clear terms exactly what you want.  



From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway sorry) . 
But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to teach / 
train a new installer to work faster? 

 

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties as 
assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.

 

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where the 
speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time with 
me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire 
down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the 
tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

 

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time. 

 

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.

 

So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then took 
him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire install. 
Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left the more 
experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not physically 
help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask because the 
other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  would be 
talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can 
help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00

 

I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on installs 
since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three to four a 
day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was alone but 
never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half hour to what 
I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving 
back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about done with the 
install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I 
have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with 
paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in 
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  
This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also 
because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day. 

 

Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.

 

I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 100s of 
installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never seen I prep 
him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the house.  Take 
the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.  And it’s a 
tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the back of the house 
“that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the doorbell and say hello.  He 
has the new guy with him so he told him to help with the ladder and then 
instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the ladder was up 
and the supervisor was at the top screwing down the tripod. I grabbed the mast, 
mounted the antenna and put the wireless unit on it to tune and scurried up the 
small ladder and up the roof. Ill make this short. We hung the gear and tuned 
and marked the tripod and I went down and he had just finished the RJ45.  In 
his defense he had  put one on a 3 foot scrap piece that he had confused with 
the rest of the wire in the box(  I don’t know) so this was his second end. 
Anyway we just ran 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Steve Jones]

same boat here, i used to do 5-7 jobs a day (not all installs, but i could
easily knock out 4 and be home by 7pm if i left the office by 10 even if i
ran into a shitshow, and i managed the network and handled tech support one
id get connected at each customers house)
now im happy if our guys gets 2 installs or 3 upgrades in a day (not happy,
but happy)

expectation is always higher from people who take ownership in their job,
even if they arent owners, im cursed with that affliction, most guys dont,
its just a job, it is what it is

those of us who can "see" an install before they finish the survey tend to
have minds that are always busy, we are usually the guys who cant sleep at
night because as we are closing our eyes we wonder if that crimp we made
two years ago on the job before we found out our crimper blade was dull is
going to fail, and we consider for a minute maybe we should drive over real
quick tonite and put a new end, then realize its stupid, but it doesnt
matter because by this point we are thinking about something else, and the
pillow is getting so hot. alot of guys just hit and install one step at a
time.

i also did stuff that was questionably safe like climbing a rusty 40 foot
tower with a laptop and a small battery backup in a backpack because
cellphones werent as useful and the battery market wasnt awesome. regular
guys expect if any issue whatsoever with the install tools happens they
will just call in

i went out with the current guy, hes just slow, and he talks too much, has
the problem where if his mouth is moving his hands arent. get onsite, greet
customer, always moving, get the restrictions, give them a rough idea of
intent, always moving to the inside, find where they want it, figure out
the exit, and you have your inside plan. I made the guys some good test
cables, each 70 foot long with clear markings every ten foot. run from the
inverter, mount, peak, if its warm you already terminated the top of the
outdoor cable and brought that end up with you, secure it on the way down
to the point of entry, cut and terminate it, mount the SS and plug it in.
if its cold, you know your footage from the cable markers, hop in the van
pull out the right amount of cable terminate both ends in the toasty van,
run up, plug it in, secure it on the way down, boom, youre ready to put
your ladder and outside stuff back in the van. grab the indoor cable, drill
your hole, push the cable in, go inside, drill any holes, grab your cable,
get it to the end point, terminate it, do any stapling or whatever you need
to do. go outside, terminate, plug it in the SS, seal any holes with
mastic, bam.
go inside, drop the power supply and router, add everything to the system.
train the customer for 20 minutes, move on.

nope.. not at all, Ive seen this guy on roof with a box of outdoor cable in
his hand, ive seen him take a cable up, wrap it around a radio come down
cut it to length, climb up to get it off, climb down terminate the top,
climb down terminate the bottom, climb up and secure the cable. and thats
an efficient day

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> It's not too much to ask for a person to do an internet install in 2-3
> hours.
> They ought to be able to hit that goal in 90 days or less.  If they
> couldn't I would try someone new.
>
> If their full time mission is doing new installations, then the goal
> should be to give them 3 per day IMO.  Drive time is a big wild card here
> of course.  If you had the luxury of installing people who are all within 5
> minute drive of each other, then you could do 4 or even 5 per day**.  I
> know because I've done it, and I'm not a super man.  I'm motivated, but
> I've seen people more motivated than me.
>
> My preference would actually be 2 per day.  It's achievable.  The
> installer has time to do a really nice job and make sure the customer is
> happy.  It's not overly stressful.  He's likely to have some extra time
> which can be used for a last minute service call, or to reorganize the van,
> or whatever.
>
> **I'll grant you I could not get up tomorrow and do 5 installs.  I'm older
> and fatter and out of practice.  Just saying it can be done.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Brandon Yuchasz" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 4/23/2017 7:37:11 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to
> teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>
>
> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he
> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>
>
> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where
> the speed issues were 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Adam Moffett]

It's not too much to ask for a person to do an internet install in 2-3 
hours.
They ought to be able to hit that goal in 90 days or less.  If they 
couldn't I would try someone new.


If their full time mission is doing new installations, then the goal 
should be to give them 3 per day IMO.  Drive time is a big wild card 
here of course.  If you had the luxury of installing people who are all 
within 5 minute drive of each other, then you could do 4 or even 5 per 
day**.  I know because I've done it, and I'm not a super man.  I'm 
motivated, but I've seen people more motivated than me.


My preference would actually be 2 per day.  It's achievable.  The 
installer has time to do a really nice job and make sure the customer is 
happy.  It's not overly stressful.  He's likely to have some extra time 
which can be used for a last minute service call, or to reorganize the 
van, or whatever.


**I'll grant you I could not get up tomorrow and do 5 installs.  I'm 
older and fatter and out of practice.  Just saying it can be done.



-- Original Message --
From: "Brandon Yuchasz" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/23/2017 7:37:11 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about 
trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?




We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good 
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that 
he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.




I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out 
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys 
ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the 
survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here 
and terminate. You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and 
tuning the radio was a breeze.




I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I 
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 
hours not counting drive time.




I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not 
a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another 
installer with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He 
came up to 3 hours for each install. So had I but we are both 
experienced.




So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and 
then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the 
entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install 
router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions 
but told him to not physically help and explained to the new guy that 
if he had questions to ask because the other guy is there to help him 
figure out a faster process and  would be talking with me after the 
install about ways to speed up the process so we can help him. I should 
mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard feelings should 
be had here. I left him at 9:00




I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out 
three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max 
when I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new 
guy I drove a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it 
alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy.  
When I got there he was just about done with the install but the truck 
was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known 
to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork 
and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in 
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the truck 
some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a 
family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final 
install of the day.




Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last 
job.




I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 
100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had 
never seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the 
back of the house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can 
access the roof.  And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the 
drive I point to the back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay 
and I go to ring the doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with 
him so he told him to help with the ladder and then instructed him to 
start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the ladder was up and the 
supervisor was at the top 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Sterling Jacobson]

I had a guy like that a few years back.

He was a satellite installer, so he should have been faster, but for the life 
of me I couldn’t get him to do installs in less than 3-5 hours each.

He was contract installer, so I paid same dollar amount per install, no overage.

Same as your guy it appears, super nice, mostly great installer.

Some things he just never really learned though, was always calling in on 
things he should have learned over the years.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Speed comes with practice and experience and a need to be quick.

If you force him to be fast when he's not ready, be prepared to utilize your 
insurance carrier and for trips to the hospital.

One of the best installers I ever saw was absolute shit his first 9 months on 
the job. Over time he could: drive up to the building, work out the install in 
his head without getting out of the truck, start his install documentation, do 
his customer meet and greet and education, install, confirm install with 
customer, finish documentation, and leave in the time it took two moderately 
trained techs to start aligning the radio.

Some people just aren't good at it, sure.. bit you'll never know if you don't 
give people time to learn and grow.

- Josh

On Apr 23, 2017 6:37 PM, "Brandon Yuchasz" 
<li...@gogebicrange.net<mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>> wrote:
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway sorry) . 
But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to teach / 
train a new installer to work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties as 
assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where the 
speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time with 
me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire 
down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the 
tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time.

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.

So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then took 
him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire install. 
Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left the more 
experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not physically 
help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask because the 
other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  would be 
talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can 
help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00

I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on installs 
since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three to four a 
day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was alone but 
never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half hour to what 
I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving 
back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about done with the 
install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I 
have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with 
paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in 
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  
This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also 
because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.

Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.

I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 100s of 
installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never seen I prep 
him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the house.  Take 
the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.  And it’s a 
tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the back of the house 
“th

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Josh Reynolds]

Speed comes with practice and experience and a need to be quick.

If you force him to be fast when he's not ready, be prepared to utilize
your insurance carrier and for trips to the hospital.

One of the best installers I ever saw was absolute shit his first 9 months
on the job. Over time he could: drive up to the building, work out the
install in his head without getting out of the truck, start his install
documentation, do his customer meet and greet and education, install,
confirm install with customer, finish documentation, and leave in the time
it took two moderately trained techs to start aligning the radio.

Some people just aren't good at it, sure.. bit you'll never know if you
don't give people time to learn and grow.

- Josh

On Apr 23, 2017 6:37 PM, "Brandon Yuchasz"  wrote:

> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to
> teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>
>
> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he
> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>
>
> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where
> the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of
> time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install
> here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You
> could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a
> breeze.
>
>
>
> I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered
> a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not
> counting drive time.
>
>
>
> I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers
> permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a
> single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer
> with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3
> hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.
>
>
>
> So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then
> took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire
> install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I
> left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to
> not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions
> to ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster
> process and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed
> up the process so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is
> a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00
>
>
>
> I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on
> installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out
> three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when
> I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove
> a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done
> at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was
> just about done with the install but the truck was spread around the
> driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was
> going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was
> going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly
> asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  This was done for selfish
> reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also because we had a
> between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.
>
>
>
> Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.
>
>
>
> I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot
> 100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never
> seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the
> house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.
> And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the
> back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the
> doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with him so he told him to help
> with the ladder and then instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I
> walked out the ladder was up and the supervisor was at the top screwing
> down the tripod. I grabbed the mast, mounted the antenna and put the
> wireless unit on it to tune and scurried up the small ladder and up the
> roof. Ill make this short. We hung the gear and tuned and marked the tripod
> and I went down and he had just finished the RJ45.  In his defense he had
>  put one on a 3 foot 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[George Skorup]

If it was me, I'd clearly explain the expectations after two months of 
employment and let him know that you'll be making a decision in two 
weeks. Maybe that will motivate him. If not, don't feel bad about 
letting him go.


Honestly, 4-5 hours on an install for a new guy isn't far from normal. 
Most of our guys were there in the beginning. Usually after 3 months, 
they can hammer out an install in 2-3 hours.


Just keep in mind that everyone is different. It just takes some people 
a little bit longer to get it. What you don't want to do is let a 
potentially really good tech go.


On 4/23/2017 6:37 PM, Brandon Yuchasz wrote:


I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway 
sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about 
trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?


We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other 
duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good 
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is 
that he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.


I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out 
where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys 
ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the 
survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here 
and terminate. You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and 
tuning the radio was a breeze.


I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I 
considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over 
 10 hours not counting drive time.


I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not 
a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another 
installer with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He 
came up to 3 hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.


So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and 
then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the 
entire install. Radio here, wire down here�.. in and terminate. 
Install router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer 
questions but told him to not physically help and explained to the new 
guy that if he had questions to ask because the other guy is there to 
help him figure out a faster process and  would be talking with me 
after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can help 
him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00


I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on 
installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock 
out three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours 
max when I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the 
new guy I drove a half hour to what I considered a hard install and 
did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new 
guy.  When I got there he was just about done with the install but the 
truck was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I have been 
known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with 
paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I 
stepped in did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack 
up the truck some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and 
I have a family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for 
the final install of the day.


Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.

I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 
100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had 
never seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32�) up on the gable on the 
back of the house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can 
access the roof.  And it�s a tripod install. So when we pull into the 
drive I point to the back of the house �that�s the back� he says okay 
and I go to ring the doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with 
him so he told him to help with the ladder and then instructed him to 
start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the ladder was up and the 
supervisor was at the top screwing down the tripod. I grabbed the 
mast, mounted the antenna and put the wireless unit on it to tune and 
scurried up the small ladder and up the roof. Ill make this short. We 
hung the gear and tuned and marked the tripod and I went down and he 
had just finished the RJ45.  In his defense he had  put one on a 3 
foot scrap piece that he had confused with the rest of the wire in the 
box(  I don�t know) so this was his second end. Anyway we just ran the 
job and he stayed out of the way. This was a hard roof, tall and not 
LOS and we were done in the truck heading home in just 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]]

I agree.  My other installer (with 10yrs experience) is nearly as fast (mostly 
3 hrs).  He still gets confused sometimes when it is a screwball situation but 
we all do.

Jim Bouse
Owner
Mobile IT Pro - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
j...@brazoswifi.com

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Keefe John
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:20 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

Nobody will ever be as fast you. You can hope for half as fast.

Keefe
On April 23, 2017 6:54:48 PM CDT, "Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]" 
<j...@brazoswifi.com<mailto:j...@brazoswifi.com>> wrote:
I am in the exact same boat. New guy is slow as cold molasses.

My installs are normally 2 hours. Maybe 3.
His are 4 or 5.  So his days are 10 hours (yay overtime).

When we work together, it seems that he just has his head up his butt and 
doesn't realize what step comes next.

Good luck!

Jim

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT 4G LTE smartphone


 Original message 
From: Brandon Yuchasz <li...@gogebicrange.net<mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>>
Date: 4/23/17 6:37 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway sorry) . 
But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to teach / 
train a new installer to work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties as 
assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where the 
speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time with 
me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire 
down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the 
tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time.

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.

So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then took 
him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire install. 
Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left the more 
experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not physically 
help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask because the 
other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  would be 
talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can 
help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00

I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on installs 
since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three to four a 
day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was alone but 
never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half hour to what 
I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving 
back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about done with the 
install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I 
have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with 
paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in 
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  
This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also 
because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.

Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.

I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 100s of 
installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never seen I prep 
him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the house.  Take 
the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.  And it’s a 
tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the back of the house 
“that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the doorbell and say hello.  He 
has the new guy with him so he told him to help with the ladder and then 
instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the ladder was up 
and the supervisor was at the

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Keefe John]

Nobody will ever be as fast you. You can hope for half as fast.

Keefe

On April 23, 2017 6:54:48 PM CDT, "Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]" 
 wrote:
>I am in the exact same boat. New guy is slow as cold molasses.
>
>My installs are normally 2 hours. Maybe 3.
>His are 4 or 5.  So his days are 10 hours (yay overtime).
>
>When we work together, it seems that he just has his head up his butt
>and doesn't realize what step comes next.
>
>Good luck!
>
>Jim
>
>Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
> Original message 
>From: Brandon Yuchasz 
>Date: 4/23/17 6:37 PM (GMT-06:00)
>To: af@afmug.com
>Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
>I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
>sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about
>trying to teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
>duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
>understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that
>he is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out
>where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys
>ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the
>survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here
>and terminate. You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and
>tuning the radio was a breeze.
>
>I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
>considered a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10
>hours not counting drive time.
>
>I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers
>permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not
>a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another
>installer with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He
>came up to 3 hours for each install. So had I but we are both
>experienced.
>
>So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and
>then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the
>entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install
>router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions
>but told him to not physically help and explained to the new guy that
>if he had questions to ask because the other guy is there to help him
>figure out a faster process and  would be talking with me after the
>install about ways to speed up the process so we can help him. I should
>mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard feelings should
>be had here. I left him at 9:00
>
>I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on
>installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out
>three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max
>when I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new
>guy I drove a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it
>alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy. 
>When I got there he was just about done with the install but the truck
>was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known
>to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork
>and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in
>did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the truck
>some.  This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a
>family) and also because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final
>install of the day.
>
>Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last
>job.
>
>I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot
>100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had
>never seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the
>back of the house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can
>access the roof.  And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the
>drive I point to the back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay
>and I go to ring the doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with
>him so he told him to help with the ladder and then instructed him to
>start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the ladder was up and the
>supervisor was at the top screwing down the tripod. I grabbed the mast,
>mounted the antenna and put the wireless unit on it to tune and
>scurried up the small ladder and up the roof. Ill make this short. We
>hung the gear and tuned and marked the tripod and I went down and he
>had just finished the RJ45.  In his defense he had  put one on a 3 foot
>scrap piece that he had confused with the rest of the wire in the box( 
>I don’t know) so this was his second end. Anyway we just ran the job
>and he stayed out of the way. 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Timothy Steele]

When you are new getting a good process of running the install in your head
how to deal with stupid Netgear router that lie and say they have no
internet and trying to figure out why it's slow when you are done and
figuring out you had a wire crossed all that adds a lot of time to a
install when you first start you really would have to work with the guy and
judge him by his attitude is he wanting to find better ways to get done
faster?, or is he stuck in his own ways?. Or is he just milking the jobs
because he needs over time?? Without meeting the guy none of us can give
you any real help

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 7:54 PM Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi] 
wrote:

> I am in the exact same boat. New guy is slow as cold molasses.
>
> My installs are normally 2 hours. Maybe 3.
> His are 4 or 5.  So his days are 10 hours (yay overtime).
>
> When we work together, it seems that he just has his head up his butt and
> doesn't realize what step comes next.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jim
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Brandon Yuchasz 
> Date: 4/23/17 6:37 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
>
> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway
> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to
> teach / train a new installer to work faster?
>
>
>
> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other
> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he
> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
>
>
>
> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where
> the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of
> time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install
> here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You
> could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a
> breeze.
>
>
>
> I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered
> a hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not
> counting drive time.
>
>
>
> I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers
> permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a
> single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer
> with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3
> hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.
>
>
>
> So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then
> took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire
> install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I
> left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to
> not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions
> to ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster
> process and  would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed
> up the process so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is
> a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00
>
>
>
> I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on
> installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out
> three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when
> I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove
> a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done
> at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was
> just about done with the install but the truck was spread around the
> driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was
> going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was
> going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly
> asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  This was done for selfish
> reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also because we had a
> between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.
>
>
>
> Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.
>
>
>
> I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot
> 100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never
> seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the
> house.  Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.
> And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the
> back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the
> doorbell and say hello.  He has the new guy with him so he told him to help
> with the ladder and then 

Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

[Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]]

I am in the exact same boat. New guy is slow as cold molasses.

My installs are normally 2 hours. Maybe 3.
His are 4 or 5.  So his days are 10 hours (yay overtime).

When we work together, it seems that he just has his head up his butt and 
doesn't realize what step comes next.

Good luck!

Jim

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT 4G LTE smartphone


 Original message 
From: Brandon Yuchasz 
Date: 4/23/17 6:37 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.

I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway sorry) . 
But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to teach / 
train a new installer to work faster?

We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other duties as 
assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good understanding of 
networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is very slow on 
installs and the primary job he was hired to do.

I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out where the 
speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys ahead of time with 
me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey. Install here, wire 
down here, across here in through wall here and terminate. You could see the 
tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a breeze.

I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I considered a 
hard install. The second one easy.  They took him over  10 hours not counting 
drive time.

I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers 
permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a single 
thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer with me and 
asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours for each 
install. So had I but we are both experienced.

So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and then took 
him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the entire install. 
Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router. I left the more 
experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to not physically 
help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to ask because the 
other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and  would be 
talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process so we can 
help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard 
feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00

I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on installs 
since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out three to four a 
day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when I was alone but 
never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a half hour to what 
I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at 12:30 and driving 
back to check on the new guy.  When I got there he was just about done with the 
install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not throwing stones I 
have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at this point with 
paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for sure.  I stepped in 
did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack up the truck some.  
This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also 
because we had a  between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day.

Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job.

I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot 100s of 
installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never seen I prep 
him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the house.  Take 
the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.  And it’s a 
tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the back of the house 
“that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the doorbell and say hello.  He 
has the new guy with him so he told him to help with the ladder and then 
instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the ladder was up 
and the supervisor was at the top screwing down the tripod. I grabbed the mast, 
mounted the antenna and put the wireless unit on it to tune and scurried up the 
small ladder and up the roof. Ill make this short. We hung the gear and tuned 
and marked the tripod and I went down and he had just finished the RJ45.  In 
his defense he had  put one on a 3 foot scrap piece that he had confused with 
the rest of the wire in the box(  I don’t know) so this was his second end. 
Anyway we just ran the job and he stayed out of the way. This was a hard roof, 
tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck heading home in just under two 
hours. But that was two guys and we ran.

Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a