Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > Me suffers from sticky weather here also. Morning Wombat! I presume that you've abandoned any plans for a last-minute vacation in Sicily... :D Dave :cool: (Pleasantly sunny, but 21C max here today) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > I stick to my Transporter also. I love it. When you think otherwise we > must have misunderstood. I stopped fiddling with the DAC part because it > doesn't come any better imho. Some tasty voicing in sound aside. > I played with my speakers to optimize them for my room for some time but > now i guess i'm done. Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick! I'm sure that the best course is to sort the kit, then totally forget about it & enjoy the music. I rarely change my gear myself. Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > > Me, I'm old, & I like to stick to stuff I'm used to. > I stick to my Transporter also. I love it. When you think otherwise we must have misunderstood. I stopped fiddling with the DAC part because it doesn't come any better imho. Some tasty voicing in sound aside. I played with my speakers to optimize them for my room for some time but now i guess i'm done. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > Debating S/PDIF in the times of USB is a bit of nostalgia. Get a > rasberry pi and a good USB DAC. No need for 2000$ toys. Hi again Wombat! Again you are of course correct. Don't really understand why you haven't unloaded your Transporter (that you don't seem to like much) on the thriving s/hand market: whatever your mods were they clearly haven't stopped it working - somebody will pay euros for it... Me, I'm old, & I like to stick to stuff I'm used to. Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Debating S/PDIF in the times of USB is a bit of nostalgia. Get a rasberry pi and a good USB DAC. No need for 2000$ toys. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
That post certainly woke this dormant thread up! I've stuck this up before, but since it's a new enquiry, here again is Sean Adam's take (& technical reference source): http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?39770-Setting-Transporter-to-Slave-for-World-Clock-Input/page3 & http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf2_e.html. I'll leave you all to it!! Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Do you have any of the usual German obsessions, e.g. cars, beer > festivals & a general distrust of American governments, which would > resonate with me also or are you strictly an audio geek? ;) > High Dave, i am pretty german, some DNA elements are from austria. I enjoyed being in a partnership the most. Today i feel there is nothing more fascinating as to see childreen around me and friends grow up. My beer interest faded away when i had my own IT Service business and had to work hard. Today i get payed from a big insurance. I never made it above the VW Golf class, no passion evolved there. A Vespa is much more effective in my town. If i hadn't started an education in building telephone and alarm systems i may have ended in the audio business. Some fellows i know had very hard times making a living with it. I most likely was one of the first private persons having a speaker measuring system at home. I could go on but these private things don't belong in the public internet. To be honest i only write so much because i wonder how you must feel while posting here it may end soon. I bet you will try to convince angels to use Brooklyn DACs on their clouds. Or stands the firered "M" on the box for Mephisto? FULL STOP ---Anti fanboymode reactivated--- Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > I am long enough in other forums and people know i am from germany i > guess. Crazy weather here these days. > Cheers! Hi Wombat! With your surreal sense of humour I wouldn't have guessed that you were German (unless you just happen to live there now... ). Congratulations on transcending your national stereotype & kudos for being able to pull it all off in English which I believe is regarded as harder to learn as a foreign language than Mandarin Chinese. At last count, we apparently had 193 irregular verbs! :D Of course our moat protects us from the worst weather extremities experienced by mainland Europe, doubly so in my case since I live on a small island on the South Coast with its own little moat & pretty flat - I'm about 2.5m above sea level - & the whole thing is surrounded by hills, with the Isle of Wight to the south, so in effect we have our own micro-climate. Wind over tide is the main threat, although these requires an unusual combination to take effect. That said, there was a substantial storm overnight in the 1320's & the other islanders awoke to discover that an entire hamlet, complete with a church, called Southwood had been utterly obliterated by the sea with 100 or more souls lost. Rather poignantly, we still have a "Southwood Road", but it no longer goes anywhere. Do you have any of the usual German obsessions, e.g. cars, beer festivals & a general distrust of American governments, which would resonate with me also or are you strictly an audio geek? ;) Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
I am long enough in other forums and people know i am from germany i guess. Crazy weather here these days. Cheers! Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > Me suffers from sticky weather here also. Hi Wombat! Other points noted. Thanks for your kind wishes: it's a downward spiral sadly, but at least I'll die of something else! I'm surely reminded that I'm still alive every morning... ;) However, my days improve with medication & a modicum of alcohol - I now understand the Victorian obsession with laudanum, lol. Somewhat surprised that you have weather in your undisclosed location. I wasn't sure that you were in a universe subject to our laws of physics! Dave :o Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
RayDunzl has only upsampled to 384kHz to get a better picture in the Audacity waveform view. Software like Audition visualizes with applied sync filter and Audacity can't. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > Since we both don't know how it was measured my guess is that the > measured distortion is added by purpose with parts of the analog output > stage. Maybe some audiophile voiced op amp to simulate pleasant sound. > When clipping is a problem you might consider the digital volume control > to prevent the DAC coming near full scale. > Also this quote "...the levels out of the box was some 8 to 9 db higher > than other DACs..." > Suggests that in direct comparison much care shouod be taken on loudness > matching. Hi Wombat! Now we find some common ground: although having read Michal's published paper (I've given the link previously) on his objectives & methodology in designing the Brokkly gizmo (it's not *-just-* a DAC after all), he does state that selecting the analogue volume control option (digital also available, -*if*- one can enter the menu system!) introduces some 2nd harmonic distortion - he claims that this is less than that introduced by the volume control on most preamplifiers, & the logic in using it is only if one were concerned about the "lost" bits caused by the digital alternative, which as Julf has pointed out are not going to have an audible effect in practice. For myself, I wind the Transporter (digital) volume control down about 9dB, & leave the Mytek on "bypass". With this setting, the Mytek's volume control, which I also set to digital mode, only affects the balanced (so that I can make the lead long enough to sit down... ) headphone output for my HD800S cans which are my reference transducers over my amplifier + loudspeakers by a country mile I may thereby escape any euphonic effect from the analogue stage which is stated to be caused solely by the use of the analogue volume control, but to be honest I can't hear a difference anyway. The kiddies made no reference to music or even ancilliary equipment, so it seemed like an electronic fishing trip to me. What on earth did that one commentator expect to achieve by up-sampling an already digitised signal to 384kHz?? He still received support from others though for this weird suggestion. I don't think that they'd last long on this forum! :D Did you notice that no mention was made of music in the entire piece? It's quite amusing in retrospect. Sorry that I was grumpy - I'm having a bad-back day, not that that is really a sufficient excuse (hence the apology... ). Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Since we both don't know how it was measured my guess is that the measured distortion is added by purpose with parts of the analog output stage. Maybe some audiophile voiced op amp to simulate pleasant sound. When clipping is a problem you might consider the digital volume control to prevent the DAC coming near full scale. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > Some simple measurements for the Mytek Brooklyn fanboys. > http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-mytek-brooklyn-dac.1828/ Hi Wombat! Since the nice night-nurse couldn't be bothered to read the clear manual (or even make a phone call... ) she didn't get into any of the Mytek's menus (hint: you can press the button on the supplied Apple remote marked "menu" - the other button covers the more complex power on or off function) & consequently had no clue what settings she was measuring, including the fact that the 2nd order HD probably came from the analogue volume control (which can be changed to digital or bypassed for the line outputs altogether) which is necessary as the Mytek also functions as a dedicated 6W +6W headphone amp and, if you wish can be used to drive power amplifiers directly. This is edited highlights - for the full picture you'd have to read the book, just as she should have done. :D 4 buttons + 1 knob was clearly an overload of permutations for someone used to only three buttons & no knob. If you drop the remote behind the sofa, a brief press of the BIG knob also activates the underlying menus - a sustained press does that wacky on/off thing. :confused: I know that this is hard for most people to get their heads round, but for a so-called review it is laughable. The nice lady should stick to her night job: if nursing becomes problematic because of the rising pile of cadavers, alternative night-time occupations are available, or so I am told... Bunch of kids messing about, I know YOU don't want one anyway (so here is the riposte your sniping merits), it's hardly a damning indictment! The subsequent contributors couldn't decide what to do amongst themselves either, I think that they probably got bored & went out to play in the garden. Dave :rolleyes: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Some simple measurements for the Mytek Brooklyn fanboys. http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-mytek-brooklyn-dac.1828/#post-46134 It measures almost as good as a 70$ Behringer :) Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Ok so if I understand correctly you're quoting the number of bits the 32 bit volume control can reduce by without truncation, and if a DAC chip quotes a 64 bit volume control this quoted value would double to "20 bits" volume range, but would still represent the exact same amount of DB volume difference at output..? -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > I was assuming the volume was operated similar to Squeezebox, i.e. by > modifying the input stream to the DAC and using its output as-is. Is > that not what you're referring to here? I believe that's how the > transporter works. > That is what I am referring to. There are two separate noise mechanisms at work here. On one hand you have the noise floor of the analog buffer and output stages (that will be just the same independent of whether the volume control is digital or analog, so that is why I wasn't discussing that part, and on the other hand quantization noise that is dependent on the resolution/bit depth of the DAC. The effect of the volume control on that depends on the number of bits used internally to calculate the scaling (normally 32 or more bits), and number of bits in the output stage once you get down to levels when that starts to matter (as I wrote, about 10 bits attenuation with a 24-bit output stage). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > Yes. No. Maybe. But mostly No. Digital volume control, by definition, is > never "bit perfect" - any attenuation in the digital domain changes the > bits. But likewise any volume change in the analog domain changes the > signal voltage, and normally decreases signal-to-noise ratio. Thus what > you should look at is SNR, both for analog and for digital. The SNR for > typical commercial source material is around 13-14 bits, so if you have > a 24-bit volume control, you can attenuate by 10 bits before you start > decreasing the real SNR. With a 32-bit volume control (typical of modern > DACs) you have 18 bits of attenuation before reducing SNR. > > A completely different matter is the fact that if you get your gain > structure right, the decrease in SNR doesn't matter - if something is > too quiet to hear, it is too quiet to hear, no matter what the volume > setting. Hi Julf! If I'm getting your drift, this implies that if I don't use the bypass on my Mytek, I should select the digital as opposed to the analogue volume control. This is relevant anyway because the volume control is always in circuit for the headphone output(s)... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
I was assuming the volume was operated similar to Squeezebox, i.e. by modifying the input stream to the DAC and using its output as-is. Is that not what you're referring to here? I believe that's how the transporter works. -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > Further, noting that the SNR of even a top end 24 or 32 bit DAC is > rarely much greater than about 20 bits (making the high bit count > designation totally pointless), it seems likely that you really only get > about 6-8 bits digital attenuation before you lose something into noise, > right?[/i] Don't confuse the SNR of the DAC with resolution of the volume control. They are independent. The SNR of the DAC is irrelevant as long as it is reasonably higher than that of the source material. If the volume control is done at 32 bits, you still have 16-18 bits of attenuation until you start losing anything. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
True enough. Further, noting that the SNR of even a top end 24 or 32 bit DAC is rarely much greater than about 20 bits (making the high bit count designation totally pointless), it seems likely that you really only get about 6-8 bits digital attenuation before you lose something into noise. Whether this is audible is not something I'd care to debate however. It's not something I'd choose to run with on a reference system though. -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > More comments when I have more time, but iirc the digital volume control > is only "bit perfect" when volume is reduced by less than 8 bits. If you > lower it further it truncates even 16 bit sources. (I forget what this > translates to in dB.) Yes. No. Maybe. But mostly No. Digital volume control, by definition, is never "bit perfect" - any attenuation in the digital domain changes the bits. But likewise any volume change in the analog domain changes the signal voltage, and normally decreases signal-to-noise ratio. Thus what you should look at is SNR, both for analog and for digital. The SNR for typical commercial source material is around 13-14 bits, so if you have a 24-bit volume control, you can attenuate by 10 bits before you start decreasing the real SNR. With a 32-bit volume control (typical of modern DACs) you have 18 bits of attenuation before reducing SNR. A completely different matter is the fact that if you get your gain structure right, the decrease in SNR doesn't matter - if something is too quiet to hear, it is too quiet to hear, no matter what the volume setting. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > More comments when I have more time, but iirc the digital volume control > is only "bit perfect" when volume is reduced by less than 8 bits. If you > lower it further it truncates even 16 bit sources. (I forget what this > translates to in dB.) > > Documentation suggests both the transporter and the mytek achieve >20 > bit accuracy, so it is simply not true to suggest the Mytek is "better" > in any significant way, it is just "different", though different in a > way you prefer. But I also think it's not fair to compare a DAC > operating in full bit depth then regulated by an analogue attenuator > against a DAC running with heavy digital attenuation. > > At the end of the day without a reference volume level that the guy in > the mastering studio was aiming at, home audio is a guess. And given > that no two CDs are mastered to the same reference, more so. > > > -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- Fair comments. I think I'm tending to the opinion that the analogue stage after the DAC's may be the source of the difference I'm perceiving. But, as you imply, it's ultimately about what rings your bell as regards the musical experience: although my gear is quite pretty that's more likely to catch the eye of my occasional visitors than mine. I quite like turning off all the displays, sticking a bit of insulating tape over the remaining LED's & listening in the dark - with a flashlight to hand to make sure I don't trip over my black cat if I need the loo! :D Dave (not totally :cool: ) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
More comments when I have more time, but iirc the digital volume control is only "bit perfect" when volume is reduced by less than 8 bits, or approx 32db. If you lower it further it truncates even 16 bit sources. Documentation suggests both the transporter and the mytek achieve >20 bit accuracy, so it is simply not true to suggest the Mytek is "better" in any significant way, it is just "different", though different in a way you prefer. But I also think it's not fair to compare a DAC operating in full bit depth then regulated by an analogue attenuator against a DAC running with heavy digital attenuation. At the end of the day without a reference volume level that the guy in the mastering studio was aiming at, home audio is a guess. And given that no two CDs are mastered to the same reference, more so. -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > I'm searching for a reason why this anecdote should be given much > weight. Hi Arny! I'd categorise it as a rant rather than an anecdote - I can get cantankerous when my back is screaming... Feeling more comfortable now, hope you're having a good weekend. Dave (:)er now) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > FWIW I don't doubt you can hear a difference between two DACs in a > scenario like this. You may also actually have a faulty transporter (or > power unit), which would colour the analogue output much more. A "DAC", > to the consumer, is the combination of its immeasurably perfect digital > components and its measurably imperfect analogue components, they cannot > be taken separately. > > You are also talking about two bits of kit designed with different aims, > fifteen or so years apart. The transporter punched extremely highly in > its pursuit of neutrality and accuracy. > > Two other points - Mytek state that their analogue pre-amp volume > control colours the sound that comes out of the device. I've noted this > on my 192DSD as well. Comparing this with the digital volume control on > the transporter (I don't have one so right now I'm assuming that's what > it is) isn't the same. > > And finally I've found that systems from the so-called "neutral" end of > the scale require you to listen in to find the details, they aren't > presented so obviously. This does not mean they are less detailed just > that the sound presents this differently. I have no logical explanation > as to why. I assume it comes down to very small frequency response > shifts, or small amounts of dynamic compression; after all "air and > space" is most likely high frequency background noise, but have no > experimental results to back these theories up. I don't have the time to > care too much so I buy kit I like at prices I like without trying to > think about it too much... > > And, as usual, it's worth saying all these systems are achieving way > more fidelity than the *still* inexplicably popular Vinyl sound. People > don't like accurate, they like a show to be put on. > > -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- Hi Dr M! Thank you for your considered reply to my pain-fuelled irascible posting. I'm aware that you have your own detractors on this forum, so I appreciate your willingness to comment. I agree with much of what you say, but have a few observations, Firstly, since I currently have 3 Transporters (1 "Slim Devices" model which probably dates all the way back to 2005 & a couple of previously unused SE's I imported from the States this year - 2012 manufacture? ) & they *-all-* sound the same, I think I can rule out the possibility that an internal fault is responsible for my experience. Secondly, the effects of volume controls. As you surmise, the Transporter does indeed have a volume control which operates exclusively in the digital domain, with 0.5dB steps. The Mytek offers either digital or analogue volume control in 1dB steps. My understanding is that the disadvantage of digital volume control is that you lose 1 bit of resolution for each 6dB of volume attenuation (I read this somewhere & haven't reconfirmed it, so correct me if I've got the scale of the effect slightly out... ): this does not occur if the volume adjustment is made in the analogue domain. I usually simply set the volume control to "bypass" to reduce the unnecessary additional circuitry in the signal path. My Pathos amplifier has 2 "real" balanced XLR inputs with high headroom although the maximum output of the Mytek can be adjusted internally using "jumpers" - I believe that the same is true of the DSD192 model - so that you can ensure that the input stage of whichever amplifier you use will not be driven into overload by its maximum output. Without adjustment the Mytek's balanced output is significantly higher than that of the Transporter however, & this is why I re-engaged the analogue volume control of the former to make the comparison. Although I'm limited to 1dB steps, the results I report are categorically *-not-* a "level matching" issue: the Mytek sounds better than the Transporter whether played louder or quieter than the latter... Thirdly, as regards the intended sound of the Brooklyn, Michal Jurewicz has written a paper on his design approach: https://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Engineering_and_Design_Philosopy_of_Mytek_Brooklyn_DAC.pdf . You may find this of particular interest if you haven't seen it before, since it gives a lot of detail regarding the output levels of the balanced XLR's & unbalanced RCA phono's which are common to your DSD192 model. However, whilst he concedes that the use of the analogue volume control very slightly compromises the measured performance although less than the volume control of most preamps in terms of *-audible-* effect, he is adamant that the Brooklyn is a DAC for accurate reproduction rather than euphonic enhancement... whether this is so much the case with your DSD192 (which I think was Mytek's first consumer offering, again correct me if I'm wrong there) I do not know. I agree that ultimately the whole issue is how much your system suspends your disbelief: my preference is to be able to close my eyes & feel as though I am in Abbey Road Studio #3, or alternatively if
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi all! > > I've recently been assembling some first-time music systems for my 2 > daughters & their hubbies (well unless fiancé or my #1 daughter get the > collywobbles in the next 4 weeks... ), & got hold of some active studio > near-field monitor derived active bookshelf 2-way units off eBay brand > new at about 1/3rd of the 2015 asking price, as is my wont. Inevitably > they're a bit light at the bottom end, but I discovered that Fostex also > offer miniature 5" subwoofers in their current range at about £130 a > pop, so took the chance on a couple of those & big improvement - > obviously not room shaking, but convincing if you twiddle the knobs > carefully in the correct order. > > The (now discontinued) PX-5HS speakers have balanced XLR inputs, in > keeping with their studio monitor lineage. To run them in I initially > connected them to the balanced analogue XLR outputs of my Brokkly DAC, > with its volume control reactivated in the analogue domain. They played > loud enough that my ears clipped well before their Class D amps (35W + > 18W, after in-built electronic crossover) ran out of steam - retreating > to my bathroom revealed that the sound quality was still fine, once I'd > stopped the bleeding from my ears :D . > > Bear in mind that my sprogs are not (at least yet!) audiophiles & young > folks tend to move around a bit, so key objectives were 1. genuinely > musical output; 2. minimal visual intrusion & cabling; & 3. > adjustability to suit rooms of unknown size & shape. I can't stretch to > another couple of Brokklies but do have a couple of unused Transporter > SE's they can have, still leaving me with a spare "knobbed" Logitech > model to back up my Slim Devices branded one. So after a couple of > weeks, I thought I'd swap the connections to my Transporter's analogue > XLR outputs although it's a bit of a lash-up since my analogue XLR > cables are all only 1 metre long. > > Here's the point of this post: the audible effect was immediate: as if a > couple of plastic refuse sacks had been wrapped around the speakers. > Obviously I'm used to having pretty high-end gear, so in comparison to > no music system at all, I'm sure that the kids will still love it. I > certainly know what to point them to if they ask for an upgrade path, > though. > > Since much more knowledgeable folk than I have avowed that the > Transporter's DAC is effectively perfect from the standpoint of > audibility, what on earth is wrong with the Transporter's subsequent > analogue stage (which is the only other possible culprit)?? If I can > hear the effect on speakers I bought for just over £200, I'm losing > interest in attempting to "prove" anything to you lot, especially since > I have had so little interest from forum users in participating in my > proposed ABX test. > > Looking back through the years, it would appear that the general > approach on this forum used to be quite open-minded: by contrast, it > seems now to consist of a rump of the former members, most of whom dug > their fox-holes so long ago that nothing I did now would have any > resonance with any of you anyway, irrespective of statistical analysis I > might present. I'm disappointed to have formed this conclusion, but I'll > get over it - I've been disappointed before (several times actually). > > If you can't hear it, you can't hear it. There is no point in arguing > against a fact. If other people did hear it, they would be dismissed as > frauds or else some flaw in the test would be alleged - you can't be an > audiophile with poor hearing, after all, it would clearly be a > contradiction in terms. And you have all had that self-appointed status > for so long, well, it just stands to reason doesn't it... ? > :rolleyes: > > Happy listening to you all nevertheless, > > Dave :) Given that it appears that no serious attempt was made to match levels, I'm searching for a reason why this anecdote should be given much weight. I won't even mention the issue of sighted bias and lack of time-synching of the music, because addressing those actually takes a little work. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
FWIW I don't doubt you can hear a difference between two DACs in a scenario like this. You may also actually have a faulty transporter (or power unit), which would colour the analogue output much more. You are also talking about two bits of kit designed with different aims, fifteen or so years apart. The transporter punched extremely highly in its pursuit of neutrality and accuracy. Two other points - Mytek state that their analogue pre-amp volume control colours the sound that comes out of the device. I've noted this on my 192DSD as well. Comparing this with the digital volume control on the transporter (I don't have one so right now I'm assuming that's what it is) isn't the same. And finally I've found that systems from the so-called "neutral" end of the scale require you to listen in to find the details, they aren't presented so obviously. This does not mean they are less detailed just that the sound presents this differently. I have no logical explanation as to why. I assume it comes down to very small frequency response shifts, or small amounts of dynamic compression; after all "air and space" is most likely high frequency background noise, but have no experimental results to back these theories up. I don't have the time to care too much so I buy kit I like at prices I like without trying to think about it too much... -Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk- -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > No reason to become huffy only because some of us don't take others > daydreaming to serious. The internet is just to full of it already. Hi Wombat! I realised long ago that you & I would never see eye to eye. AFAIR, the only time I called you on something, you got very huffy. If you wish to dish it out, you should be prepared to take it as well, IMHO... Dave :) (I'm fine, it's everybody else, lol :rolleyes: ) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > So clearly there is a reason for the audible difference. Did you make > sure the levels were matched? Hi Julf! Not to 0.1 dB, but close enough. It's not a small difference - I'm 62, although my HF hearing appears to be holding up surprisingly well judging from a sweep test. But this is not a HF effect - it's basic clarity in the midrange, as in vocal register. There must be a reason, but I'm buggered if I know what's causing it. It's night & day through cheap speakers... As well as my regular gear, which was the effect I originally reported (to much ridicule!). I appreciate that you are in the Netherlands which is a stretch, but I challenge anyone on the forum who's a bit closer to come & listen for themselves before you dismiss me as an "audiophool", which is not a real word & can therefore only be used in a perjorative context, BTW. I'm just getting fed up with talking about it really - I've got better things to do with the time I have left on this planet. Sorry to be abrupt... Dave (trying to remain :cool: !) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > > If you can't hear it, you can't hear it. There is no point in arguing > against a fact. If other people did hear it, they would be dismissed as > frauds or else some flaw in the test would be alleged - you can't be an > audiophile with poor hearing, after all, it would clearly be a > contradiction in terms. And you have all had that self-appointed status > for so long, well, it just stands to reason doesn't it... ? > :rolleyes: > No reason to become huffy only because some of us don't take others daydreaming to serious. The internet is just to full of it already. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
So clearly there is a reason for the audible difference. Did you make sure the levels were matched? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Hi all! I've recently been assembling some first-time music systems for my 2 daughters & their hubbies (well unless fiancé or my #1 daughter get the collywobbles in the next 4 weeks... ), & got hold of some active studio near-field monitor derived active bookshelf 2-way units off eBay brand new at about 1/3rd of the 2015 asking price, as is my wont. Inevitably they're a bit light at the bottom end, but I discovered that Fostex also offer miniature 5" subwoofers in their current range at about £130 a pop, so took the chance on a couple of those & big improvement - obviously not room shaking, but convincing if you twiddle the knobs carefully in the correct order. The (now discontinued) PX-5HS speakers have balanced XLR inputs, in keeping with their studio monitor lineage. To run them in I initially connected them to the balanced analogue XLR outputs of my Brokkly DAC, with its volume control reactivated in the analogue domain. They played loud enough that my ears clipped well before their Class D amps (35W + 18W, after in-built electronic crossover) ran out of steam - retreating to my bathroom revealed that the sound quality was still fine, once I'd stopped the bleeding from my ears :D . Bear in mind that my sprogs are not (at least yet!) audiophiles & young folks tend to move around a bit, so key objectives were 1. genuinely musical output; 2. minimal visual intrusion & cabling; & 3. adjustability to suit rooms of unknown size & shape. I can't stretch to another couple of Brokklies but do have a couple of unused Transporter SE's they can have, still leaving me with a spare "knobbed" Logitech model to back up my Slim Devices branded one. So after a couple of weeks, I thought I'd swap the connections to my Transporter's analogue XLR outputs although it's a bit of a lash-up since my analogue XLR cables are all only 1 metre long. Here's the point of this post: the audible effect was immediate: as if a couple of plastic refuse sacks had been wrapped around the speakers. Obviously I'm used to having pretty high-end gear, so in comparison to no music system at all, I'm sure that the kids will still love it. I certainly know what to point them to if they ask for an upgrade path, though. Since much more knowledgeable folk than I have avowed that the Transporter's DAC is effectively perfect from the standpoint of audibility, what on earth is wrong with the Transporter's subsequent analogue stage (which is the only other possible culprit)?? If I can hear the effect on speakers I bought for just over £200, I'm losing interest in attempting to "prove" anything to you lot, especially since I have had so little interest from forum users in participating in my proposed ABX test. Looking back through the years, it would appear that the general approach on this forum used to be quite open-minded: by contrast, it seems now to consist of a rump of the former members, most of whom dug their fox-holes so long ago that nothing I did now would have any resonance with any of you anyway, irrespective of statistical analysis I might present. I'm disappointed to have formed this conclusion, but I'll get over it - I've been disappointed before (several times actually). If you can't hear it, you can't hear it. There is no point in arguing against a fact. If other people did hear it, they would be dismissed as frauds or else some flaw in the test would be alleged - you can't be an audiophile with poor hearing, after all, it would clearly be a contradiction in terms. And you have all had that self-appointed status for so long, well, it just stands to reason doesn't it... ? :rolleyes: Happy listening to you all nevertheless, Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > Surface Mount Device - a newer way to solder parts to circuit cards > while avoiding soldering and bending wires and drilling holes in the > circuit cards for those wires. The parts are glued to the board with > high temperature epoxy and soldered in an oven that melts solder on the > boards to solder on the parts. The parts can be very tiny, so > magnifyling glasses are often used. Requires re-equipping and > re-training people who assemble and repair the new style boards. Thanks for the heads-up Arny! I get the idea but don't think it's my idea of fun. My oven's strictly for cooking... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > I'm all for a bit of fun. > > What does "SMD" stand for, please? I'm having trouble understanding your > banter, old chap! > > Dave :) Surface Mount Device - a newer way to solder parts to circuit cards while avoiding soldering and bending wires and drilling holes in the circuit cards for those wires. The parts are glued to the board with high temperature epoxy and soldered in an oven that melts solder on the boards to solder on the parts. The parts can be very tiny, so magnifyling glasses are often used. Requires re-equipping and re-training people who assemble and repair the new style boards. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > There is no need and i don't start threads about imaginary things i > daydream to be heard just because i wasted 2000$ on something that adds > no improvement. > I sometimes mod things for fun because i can. How was your latest SMD > soldering going? I'm all for a bit of fun. What does "SMD" stand for, please? I'm having trouble understanding your banter, old chap! Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > > I notice that you haven't explained your modded Transporter yet for our > edification... > There is no need and i don't start threads about imaginary things i daydream to be heard just because i wasted 2000$ on something that adds no improvement. I sometimes mod things for fun because i can. How was your latest SMD soldering going? Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > The ENOB (effective number of bits) of the sabre is 22 bits. That's more SNR than I'm going to get out of my room. Your point about available recordings is accepted. Dave :) P.S. Sorry for delay, I hammerited my nose! How I laffed... Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Wombat wrote: > You surely were already from the start of your promotional trip. So many > posts, so many brainfu** but no time to do even a small valid test... Hi again Wombat! I notice that you haven't explained your modded Transporter yet for our edification... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
darrenyeats wrote: > FWIW, SoX uses 32 bit integer internally when passing data between each > process step you specify. Sure, and most DSP chips also use 32 bit (or more) *internally*. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
FWIW, SoX uses 32 bit integer internally when passing data between each process step you specify. Each process step can internally use a higher resolution, some calculations use 64 bit float. SoX can also finally output 32 bit PCM as WAV, if you want. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > > I'm now starting to feel justified in my assertion that I'm getting > superior audible output... > You surely were already from the start of your promotional trip. So many posts, so many brainfuck but no time to do even a small valid test... Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > P.S. As I understand it, it's got 4 Sabre DAC chips in it The ENOB (effective number of bits) of the sabre is 22 bits. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Since the DAC will accept up to 32 bit 384kHz PCM (via USB input), I > think the latter... Or not. "32 bit PCM" most often means 32-bit floating point (that has a resolution of 23 bits), not 32-bit fixed point. Anyway, 32-bit fixed point would not make any sense, as there aren't any practical DACs with linearity and SNR that would exceed 24 bits. And, of course, good luck finding a commercial recording with a SNR exceeding 16 bits. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > Are we talking about 32-bit floating point (that has 24 bit resolution) > or something with a resolution that is higher than 24 bits? Hi Julf! Since the DAC will accept up to 32 bit 384kHz PCM (via USB input), I think the latter... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Of course back in 2008 Sean was still singing the praises of the fixed > point 24 bit DAC chips inside the Transporter (which were famously > marketed as "magic") & its 20ps jitter internal clock - but then there > weren't any 32 bit DAC chips back then. Are we talking about 32-bit floating point (that has 24 bit resolution) or something with a resolution that is higher than 24 bits? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Hi all! I've finally stumbled across Mr Adams himself discussing using an external DAC to a Transporter, & his theoretical justification for the best way to do it... The discussion comes in a Slim Devices forum thread where Mr Adams is (very patiently!) trying to explain to someone who has splashed out a king's ransom on dcs high-end gear why it is the -*wrong*- approach to use the word clock output from an externally boxed dcs "super clock", here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/archive/index.php/t-39770.html To justify his argument, Sean then goes on to reference the following theoretical exposition (by an Italian chap, in slightly shaky English - however the logic is quite clear): http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf2_e.html So there we have it at last. Sean put the word clock in on the Transporter so that the preferred "backwards" configuration of connection between transport & external DAC could be used. Note that the point of the word clock connection is to prevent clock *-drift-* not to eliminate jitter. It is made quite clear that the digital jitter will be increased by connectors, cabling & the physical distance between the clock & the DAC chip. However so long as the jitter does not become so severe as to affect the actual bit stream, this will not matter *-since the bit stream is re-clocked in the external DAC right next to the DAC chip -*if the "backwards" connection arrangement is used. So any increase in jitter up to that point will be totally eliminated. This "backwards" method of connection is precisely the way I have my Transporter connected to my Mytek Brooklyn DAC, with the 0.8ps jitter internal DAC clock (right next to the Sable 32 bit floating point DAC chips) acting as the master clock for the slaved Transporter. Of course back in 2008 Sean was still singing the praises of the fixed point 24 bit DAC chips inside the Transporter (which were famously marketed as "magic") & its 20ps jitter internal clock - but then there weren't any 32 bit DAC chips back then. I'm now starting to feel justified in my assertion that I'm getting superior audible output... Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > More substance? > > http://www.aes.org/journal/online/JAES_V65/5/#paper1 > > Modeling Perceptual Characteristics of Loudspeaker Reproduction in a > Stereo Setup > > http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/JAES/20170602/JAES_V65_5_PG356hirez.pdf Hi Arny! Sorry to be late responding but your reference paper was a tough read. And I found it unconvincing - the 3 esteemed academics started off with 6 subjective measures of loudspeaker performance that they wanted to measure, dumped 2 of them & then combined 2 more into 1, leaving 3 of the original 6! There was an awful lot of fiddling about before they arrived at their "results" based on a panel of 11 (odd number in both senses - did they dump 1 of those as well?) "experienced" listeners, & a caution that their experiment could only be performed by "experts". Outlying results appear to have been arbitrarily disregarded - if you get rid of the data points that DON'T fit your regression curve, you WILL improve the correlation coefficient. That was 'O' Level statistics back in my day. A massive number of reference papers, not explained & no doubt equally dry, & no actual DATA. They casually mention the loudspeakers chosen but don't indicate which made it to the "evaluation" stage, let alone identify the data plots. The measured frequency response plots for the loudspeakers are so similar as to suggest that the room acoustic was dominant, whatever a ITS2464 or whatever room is. I know that I haven't got one... Masses of DSP & then they suggest that they've found the Holy Grail of loudspeaker measurement. Yawn! I realise that the paper appeared in the May issue, but I actually checked more than once that it wasn't actually dated 1st April! Repeatable experiment? Not in my book... Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Since it's too hot today in my concrete box of a lounge for me to ingest > anything technical I thought I'd chuck out a couple of links I've had up > my sleeve for other people to peruse (& doubtless have a pop at, we > could do with a bit of controversy it's all gone a bit flat). > > The first one is the published account by Michel Jurewicz (Mytek > Principal Designer) on his philosophy behind the Brokkly DAC design: > https://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Engineering_and_Design_Philosopy_of_Mytek_Brooklyn_DAC.pdf. > > That one may not raise *-too-* many heckles but this one will: > https://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Beyond_24_bit_Michal_Jurewicz_Resolution_2014.pdf. > "32 bit sounds better than 24 bit." Horsefeathers! > > > Please remember not to shoot the messenger! :D > > Dave (anything but :cool: right now... ) Magic DACs. Yawn. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Would I be right in guessing you have a Mytek Stereo192? > > I don't know how the display works on the earlier models, but the > Brokkly has a summary display (which you can set to extinguish after a > delay if you wish) which shows the sampling frequency in reasonably > large format. > > Hidden beneath this are a series of menu pages which control all > settings & also display average AND peak programme levels for each > channel. Is it too tragic to admit that I have a compact pair of > binoculars that I use to view the detail menus from my sofa whilst using > the remote? :rolleyes: > > Dave :) Yep, that's the one. It's about the same as you describe. Yes there's a timeout possible on the display so it goes "almost blank". I don't really want the display on most of the time but sometimes it's handy to get the sample rate info. For some reason I never even bothered to put the batteries in the remote for it; mostly because I'm not using any of its preamp features, only its DAC. Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Since it's too hot today in my concrete box of a lounge for me to ingest anything technical I thought I'd chuck out a couple of links I've had up my sleeve for other people to peruse (& doubtless have a pop at, we could do with a bit of controversy it's all gone a bit flat). The first one is the published account by Michel Jurewicz (Mytek Principal Designer) on his philosophy behind the Brokkly DAC design: https://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Engineering_and_Design_Philosopy_of_Mytek_Brooklyn_DAC.pdf. That one may not raise *-too-* many heckles but this one will: https://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Beyond_24_bit_Michal_Jurewicz_Resolution_2014.pdf. Please remember not to shoot the messenger! :D Dave (anything but :cool: right now... ) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
I wouldn't down-sample a high rate file. It's not always a good idea, I'd leave it alone. Under some circumstances, you might up-sample before sending the file to the DAC, but this would only make sense if you knew you could up-sample at higher quality than the DAC's internal up-sampling. -Usually- this isn't the case (not with a DAC using a modern chip set anyway) so again I'd leave it alone. Golden Earring wrote: > So I'd guess that the PCM filtering is applied just below the Nyquist > frequency - isn't the idea of 96kHz sampling frequency recording that > you have your anti-aliasing filtering well up above the audible range so > there is no impact on the audible frequency response at all (given that > real-world filters are not brick-walls)? That is true on the ADC side, or it was, but since ADCs are internally oversampling anyway these days there's no need to record at a higher rate for reasons of the anti-aliasing filter. But you might still record at a higher rate and bit depth in order for more transparent studio processing. On the playback end, modern DACs tend also to over-sample, which creates images, then apply anti-imaging filters. Usually the DAC up-samples in several stages, and often you'll find a combination of digital (the various DAC digital filter options apply here) and analogue filters to remove images. The up-sampling/digital filtering makes the analogue anti-imaging filter much more relaxed. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > Mine only has fast and slow filter settings. I don't remember seeing > documentation about the cut-off points for pcm either. Would I be right in guessing you have a Mytek Stereo192? I don't know how the display works on the earlier models, but the Brokkly has a summary display (which you can set to extinguish after a delay if you wish) which shows the sampling frequency in reasonably large format. Hidden beneath this are a series of menu pages which control all settings & also display average AND peak programme levels for each channel. Is it too tragic to admit that I have a compact pair of binoculars that I use to view the detail menus from my sofa whilst using the remote? :rolleyes: Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Having dug through all the stuff about the dimensions of King Solomon's > Temple in the user manual, I can't find a definite answer to this. For > PCM playback there are 3 filter *-shapes-* selectable by the user, viz: > 1. Minimum Phase; 2. Slow Roll-Off; & 3. Fast Roll-Off. I haven't > fiddled with this setting & I've just checked to discover that option 3 > is selected so I'm assuming that that is the default. There is no > mention of the frequency at which the filter is applied for PCM > playback. > Mine only has fast and slow filter settings. I don't remember seeing documentation about the cut-off points for pcm either. > > But the Mytek does have a remote & the facility to control it from a GUI > on my computer via (wired, obviously) USB 2.0 link. So I don't have to > haul myself off my sofa to do it! > Yup mine does too. Have to say I just leave it alone though, I only like to even see it at all because it tells me for sure that I have a 44khz source running... Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > A proper job of upsampling avoids this problem. Anti-aliasing is part > of a good implementation of upsampling. This results in a 24/96 file > that lacks any meaningful content above 22 KHz. Morning Arny! It must be seriously early in Michigan, so don't rush to reply to this if you need some more (or any) sleep. I would be grateful if you could give a slightly more detailed explanation of the above since at the moment whilst I believe you I don't understand the concept sufficiently. Thanks, Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Morning Doc! drmatt wrote: > Are you sure the Brooklyn doesn't still use a 22khz-ish filter even when > upsampling? I don't remember reading about that. Having dug through all the stuff about the dimensions of King Solomon's Temple in the user manual, I can't find a definite answer to this. For PCM playback there are 3 filter *-shapes-* selectable by the user, viz: 1. Minimum Phase; 2. Slow Roll-Off; & 3. Fast Roll-Off. I haven't fiddled with this setting & I've just checked to discover that option 3 is selected so I'm assuming that that is the default. There is no mention of the frequency at which the filter is applied for PCM playback. However for DSD playback, the default (Auto) filtering is 47.44kHz IIR filter for DSDx64, 60kHz IIR filter for DSDx128 & finally 70kHz IIR filter for DSDx256. So I'd guess that the PCM filtering is applied just below the Nyquist frequency - isn't the idea of 96kHz sampling frequency recording that you have your anti-aliasing filtering well up above the audible range so there is no impact on the audible frequency response at all (given that real-world filters are not brick-walls)? I would be happy to confirm this with Mytek's technical support guys if you'd like (I'll probably do it anyway, you've got me wondering now... ). > Do you always manually set your sample rate in the Brooklyn? I have one > of its predecessors and leave it to sync to input and I can't say I've > ever really noticed any difference between that and manually setting it. > (Well, apart from when it wound up resampling due to me leaving it set > to the wrong sample rate.) I need to do this because I'm using the Mytek's word clock out to control my Transporter (audiophool that I am :D ): otherwise I could make the Mytek sync automatically which would be slightly more convenient. But the Mytek does have a remote & the facility to control it from a GUI on my computer via (wired, obviously) USB 2.0 link. So I don't have to haul myself off my sofa to do it! Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > > > However the question arises as to whether a 24/96 format recording might > actually sound -*worse*- than 16/44.1 on account of the anti-aliasing > filtering not being applied until a much higher frequency, which > potentially would permit the onward transmission of signals above the > upper limit of human hearing into my amplifier & loudspeakers. > A proper job of upsampling avoids this problem. Anti-aliasing is part of a good implementation of upsampling. This results in a 24/96 file that lacks any meaningful content above 22 KHz. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Are you sure the Brooklyn doesn't still use a 22khz-ish filter even when upsampling? I don't remember reading about that. Do you always manually set your sample rate in the Brooklyn? I have one of its predecessors and leave it to sync to input and I can't say I've ever really noticed any difference between that and manually setting it. (Well, apart from when it wound up resampling due to me leaving it set to the wrong sample rate.) Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Morning peeps! Having been (fairly) reprimanded for being frivolous on this august forum I thought I'd make a concerted effort to be serious. It has been mentioned to me more than once on this forum that I would obtain as much audible satisfaction from the (relatively small proportion, in the context of my 6,500+ album library of lossless files) 24/96 recordings that I have if I converted them to 16/44.1, the proposal being that any superior re-mastering efforts that they might incorporate would be equally apparent in a CD-size PCM box. My excuse for not doing this so far, other than sheer laziness since they can be played "as is" (although I do have to adjust the sampling frequency on my Brokkly DAC), is that I have loads of free space on my NAS & a lot of other library work to do on my file tags. However the question arises as to whether a 24/96 format recording might actually sound -*worse*- than 16/44.1 on account of the anti-aliasing filtering not being applied until a much higher frequency, which potentially would permit the onward transmission of signals above the upper limit of human hearing into my amplifier & loudspeakers. I'm fairly relaxed that my amplifier (quoted as -0.5dB at 200,000Hz, if you can believe any manufacturers' specs these days) won't be fazed by input up to 48kHz, but my speakers have aluminium dome tweeters (again quoted as -6dB at 40,000Hz) & I wondered if anyone could enlighten me regarding the approximate frequency of input signal likely to induce cone break-up (which would have audible effects at lower frequencies) in this type of transducer? Looking forward to learning something new today! Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
iPhone wrote: > I thought this was the Audiophile Section on a Digital Forum :confused: > There are a few good bits in this tangled thread! I think we're just catching our breath & being nostalgic now the days are getting long. If you can hold on I'm sure we'll we hard at it again soon... Dave :D Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
. I thought this was the Audiophile Section on a Digital Forum :confused: HiFi VCRs were notorious for losing there head alignment and if they were used often needed annual or serving every two years minimum to stay in spec. People treated them like push lawnmowers. They would bring them into the shop and say that the program they recorded last week plays perfectly but any tape made more then three years ago are not viewable, "Can you fix that?". I would reply, "Sure, but you will not be able to view most of the programs you recorded for the last three years after I align the heads back to factory spec, your choice which is more important." Reasons for cassette tapes: 1) Taping criminal confessions 2) Forcing your mix tapes on others 3) Something to litter the highways with when the car deck eats the cassette *iPhone* Media Room: ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer Living Room: Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3 Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
kidstypike wrote: > Compact cassettes :mad: > > Head cleaning cassettes > Head demagnetizers > Splicing kits > Breaking out the tab so you couldn't accidentally record over > Taping up the hole so you *could* record over > Rewinding with a Bic biro > > Any more? Pre-recorded cassettes that: 1. Messed around with album running order to equalise the side lengths and save on tape and if that didn't save enough tape: 2. Split a track across two sides to further save on tape and if THAT didn't save enough tape: 3. Truncate a track to save yet more tape G Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Be warned that Jack Daniels WILL stick to your tubes. That's exactly what I like about it... Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Vodka worked just as well & took some of the irritation away afterwards, > AFAICR... > > And you always knew where you'd left your pen - it was next to your > cassette tapes! > > Dave :cool: Ha-ha! Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol > Adjusting head alignment .. Vodka worked just as well & took some of the irritation away afterwards, AFAICR... Dave :cool: Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol Adjusting head alignment .. Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Compact cassettes :mad: Head cleaning cassettes Head demagnetizers Splicing kits Breaking out the tab so you couldn't accidentally record over Taping up the hole so you *could* record over Rewinding with a Bic biro Any more? LMS 7.9 on a Raspberry Pi 3/piCorePlayer 3.20, playlists and LMS cache on a USB stick, 25K+ music library on a WD MyCloud network drive, Rasberry Pi 2/piCorePlayer 3.02 > HiFiBerry DIGI+ > AudioEngine DAC1 > AVI DM5 Raspberry Pi 3/piCorePlayer 3.20beta7/HiFiBerry DAC+ > Cambridge Audio Minx 5 (study) Rasberry Pi 2/piCorePlayer 3.02 > HiFiBerry DAC+ > Sharp micro system (garage) 1 x Boom (dining room) - 1 x Touch (used for display and controller only) - 1 x SB3 (spare) - 1 x Radio (spare) kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Morning Doc! > > The inclusion of linear stereo on VHS tapes was actually a backward step > from mono in terms of sound quality because the two tracks (plus a > separation gap) had to be fitted into the fairly narrow portion of the > tape not scanned by the spinning heads used for the helical video (& > later embedded "hi-fi" stereo audio, as detailed by Arny above) stripes > previously used for the one mono track. Even at SP, the linear tape > speed on VHS was only about 2ips. This made the linear stereo audio > -*more*- sensitive to "drop-out" which was a major problem with all > analogue tape devices, & would make audio replay worse even via a mono > TV & increasingly so as the tape was repeatedly played. Don't even think > about long play in the context of linear audio sound!! Yep. Although I never had one of these linear stereo decks I do remember how bad non-hifi mono audio was on VHS. I had a crap ton of compact cassettes, however, so I'm very familiar with a lot of the things being discussed here! (drop outs, Dolby NR tracking issues, print-through, stretched and dirty tapes/heads..) Ah, those were the days... :) Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > The "hifi" track was placed alongside the video with an extra set of > heads, and obviously the non-hifi linear track had to remain where it > always was and contain a replica of the audio for compatibility with > other decks. There were i think a few decks that offered linear stereo > audio too, but not many and I don't think it was very good (particularly > when long play came along).. The inclusion of linear stereo on VHS tapes was actually a backward step in terms of sound quality because the two tracks (plus a separation gap) had to be fitted into the fairly narrow portion of the tape not scanned by the spinning heads used for the helical video stripes (& a couple of adjacent "hi-fi" analogue stereo audio stripes) previously used for one mono track. Even at SP, the linear tape speed on VHS was only about 2ips. This made the linear audio -*more*- sensitive to "drop-out" which was a major problem with all analogue tape devices, & would have made audio replay worse even via a mono TV & increasingly so as the tape was repeatedly played. Don't even think about long play!! Dolby NR technology all on analogue tape recordings, whether VHS, cassette or open-reel was offered to reduce constant tape hiss levels, but made "drop-out" worse: anyone who bought even a high-spec 4-track open reel machine like a Revox A77/B77 with or without Dolby NR usually came to regret not going for the 2 track alternative offering (which played the tape in one direction only) because that arrangement doubled the width of the audio recording on the tape and was less susceptible to "drop-out", albeit by doubling the cost of the tape required to make the recording in the first place. Increasing the tape speed on open-reel machines (a high-speed 15/7.5/3.75ips variant was offered by Revox in addition to its more popular 7.5/3.75/1.875ips model) also tended to reduce "drop-out" whilst simultaneously increasing the fidelity of the recording: downside - more tape required, again. When you consider how prevalent Dolby encoding/decoding was, this was actually an early "marketing" triumph because it actually solved one problem by making another more irritating one worse... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > That makes no sense, since *vinyl has no technical advantages at all > over the CD*. Morning Arny! You have misinterpreted my meaning here - perhaps I should have made my point more explicitly. What I meant was simply that there was no way to "clone" or "rip" an LP back in the day, & that making a cassette tape (or even a domestic reel-to-reel tape) copy resulted in even further reduced fidelity. This is clearly borne out by the fact that album sales were much greater for chart-topping material in the pre- CD-R/ripping software era than they are today, even though the quality of the media used for commercial recordings now available for sale is clearly superior. And in those days we were all informed that "home taping is killing music". Ah, Jim lad... :rolleyes: Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > Wrong and wrong. Chill, actually I didn't disagree with what you wrote... Alongside also means "at the same time as or in coexistence with". > > So, the audio track was not along side the video track, it was under it > as I previously suggested. > > So the sound quality was not poor, but vastly better than any other > contemporaneous format. It was certainly better than the LP or consumer > analog tape, either open reel or cassette tape. And yes I also knew roughly how Hifi Stereo worked, and yes it was good in any speed (that I also didn't disagree with). I stated that there also existed some VHS decks that didn't use this form of "Hifi" stereo but still offered stereo sound using a two channel head in place of the standard mono linear audio head. It predated AFM hifi Stereo and unsurprisingly wasn't very good... and isn't therefore "wrong". -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > Personally I would never have declared it as an alternative to CD, but > it was a convenient alternative to compact cassette if you needed long > running times. > > The "hifi" track was placed alongside the video with an extra set of > heads, and obviously the non-hifi linear track had to remain where it > always was and contain a replica of the audio for compatibility with > other decks. There were i think a few decks that offered linear stereo > audio too, but not many and I don't think it was very good (particularly > when long play came along).. > > > Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk Wrong and wrong. Please read the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS " Hi-Fi audio system Around 1984, JVC added Hi-Fi audio to VHS (model HR-D725U, in response to Betamax's introduction of Beta Hi-Fi.) Both VHS Hi-Fi and Betamax Hi-Fi delivered flat full-range frequency response (20 Hz to 20 kHz), excellent 70 dB signal-to-noise ratio (in consumer space, second only to the compact disc), dynamic range of 90 dB, and professional audio-grade channel separation (more than 70 dB). VHS Hi-Fi audio is achieved by using audio frequency modulation (AFM), modulating the two stereo channels (L, R) on two different frequency-modulated carriers and embedding the combined modulated audio signal pair into the video signal. *To avoid crosstalk and interference from the primary video carrier, VHS's implementation of AFM relied on a form of magnetic recording called depth multiplexing. The modulated audio carrier pair was placed in the hitherto-unused frequency range between the luminance and the color carrier (below 1.6 MHz), and recorded first. Subsequently, the video head erases and re-records the video signal (combined luminance and color signal) over the same tape surface, but the video signal's higher center frequency results in a shallower magnetization of the tape, allowing both the video and residual AFM audio signal to coexist on tape. (PAL versions of Beta Hi-Fi use this same technique). During playback, VHS Hi-Fi recovers the depth-recorded AFM signal by subtracting the audio head's signal (which contains the AFM signal contaminated by a weak image of the video signal) from the video head's signal (which contains only the video signal), then demodulates the left and right audio channels from their respective frequency carriers*. *The end result of the complex process was audio of outstanding fidelity, which was uniformly solid across all tape-speeds (EP, LP or SP.)* Since JVC had gone through the complexity of ensuring Hi-Fi's backward compatibility with non-Hi-Fi VCRs, virtually all studio home video releases produced after this time contained Hi-Fi audio tracks, in addition to the linear audio track. Under normal circumstances, all Hi-Fi VHS VCRs will record Hi-Fi and linear audio simultaneously to ensure compatibility with VCRs without Hi-Fi playback, though only early high-end Hi-Fi machines provided linear stereo compatibility. " arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > Careful pro workers rewound the tape which often made the echo weaker or > even lost it in the hiss. At the BBC we always stored tapes (1/4" full-track mono or two-track stereo) end out, so the pre-echo became a post-echo and thus less obtrusive. Of course they then had to be re-wound before playback This occasionally led to problems, particularly with the Arabic service, which had tapes copied from a classic set of transcription records of the Koran. Turns out it's quite difficult to tell when these are played backwards, and some poor studio operator would occasionally get a call from a listener and have to log the mistake. ftlight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5294 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > VHS HiFi added a track that was buried under the video track, using a > different carrier frequency than the video. If memory serves, both the > video and the audio were recorded with FM. The audio data was recorded > via FM which with the parameters chosen hardly gave even just 60 dB SNR > and 50-15 KHz bandwidth, but it was also companded to boost the > perceived dynamic range. > > For a little while VHS HiFi had some advocates as an alternative to > Redbook CD optical, which was also emerging at about the same time. > However, Redbook CD quickly captured everybody's interest and as the > saying goes the rest is history. Personally I would never have declared it as an alternative to CD, but it was a convenient alternative to compact cassette if you needed long running times. The "hifi" track was placed alongside the video with an extra set of heads, and obviously the non-hifi linear track had to remain where it always was and contain a replica of the audio for compatibility with other decks. There were i think a few decks that offered linear stereo audio too, but not many and I don't think it was very good (particularly when long play came along).. Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
darrenyeats wrote: > Bit of a tangent now Arny, but this reminds of print-through, a problem > on the recording side with tape. This can manifest as a pre-echo as the > magnetic pattern on the tape transfers slightly to the adjacent layer. > It becomes noticeable when a very quiet passage precedes a very sudden > loud passage. > > A friend pointed out to me the print-through in the intro to > 'Sledgehammer' by Peter Gabriel. I also discovered print-through on > 'Tyler' by UB40 (the first track on their classic Signing Off album). There is also a form of it that is inherent in vinyl LP's. On tape, it may depend on storage time or tape type. Resistance to "print through" can be obtained by means of tape formulation. When listening to LPs. it may take some detective work for figure out whether the pre or post echo came from the master tape used to cut the LP, or the LP itself. On the LP it is a consistent 0.555 sec echo, while on analog tape the timing of the echo depends on the speed of the tape which may typically be 15 or 30 ips, and the diameter of the tape pack that the media comes from which is constantly varying. This means that tapes that are auto-reversed or played in both directions such as 4 track tapes have different echo timings depending on which way the tape is winding. Pro tapes are typically recorded only one way. Echos on LPs can be avoided by using a coarser pitch during the cutting phase, which may also decrease playing time per side. Careful pro workers rewound the tape which often made the echo weaker or even lost it in the hiss. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > > Tape always picks up problems when used heavily, and also big exposures > to suboptimal storage and handling. It also has problems with rapid > access to different parts of the media. CD media has no known relevant > usage or storage limits if treated reasonably. > Bit of a tangent now Arny, but this reminds of print-through, a problem on the recording side with tape. This can manifest as a pre-echo as the magnetic pattern on the tape transfers slightly to the adjacent layer. It becomes noticeable when a very quiet passage precedes a very sudden loud passage. A friend pointed out to me the print-through in the intro to 'Sledgehammer' by Peter Gabriel. I also discovered print-through on 'Tyler' by UB40 (the first track on their classic Signing Off album). Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > NICAM was an interesting technology, but it was only used on the > broadcast side. A VCR recorded analogue audio. Maybe you knew that, I > wasn't clear from your post so just clarifying. > VHS HiFi added a track that was buried under the video track, using a different carrier frequency than the video. If memory serves, both the video and the audio were recorded with FM. The audio data was recorded via FM which with the parameters chosen hardly gave even just 60 dB SNR and 50-15 KHz bandwidth, but it was also companded to boost the perceived dynamic range. For a little while VHS HiFi had some advocates as an alternative to Redbook CD optical, which was also emerging at about the same time. However, Redbook CD quickly captured everybody's interest and as the saying goes the rest is history. Tape always picks up problems when used heavily, and also big exposures to suboptimal storage and handling. It also has problems with rapid access to different parts of the media. CD media has no known relevant usage or storage limits if treated reasonably. I buy 100s of CDs from estate sales and some have to be decades old. I've digitized over 1,000 of them in the past two years with no problems that a bath with hot soapy water couldn't cure (less than 10 discs even just needed a bath.). Not one! I don't inspect them except very superficially at point of purchase. Like: "Is there a CD in this case?" This includes discs that were bought loose - with no packaging. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi Stephen! > > Interestingly, I came across a source that claimed that Sony chose > 44.1kHz as the CD sampling frequency in response to Herbert von > Karajan's insistence that a CD should accommodate a performance of > Beethoven's 9th, although other sources claim that the ready > availability of existing 44.1kHz clocks was the real reason. One would > have thought that 48kHz (as used for PCM sound on DVD-V's) would have > been a more obvious choice, but it wouldn't have allowed the 9th to fit > on a 700Mb CD. I also discovered by chance that the original intention > was only to use 14bit encoding, although this was changed during > development to 16bit before any CD's or CD players were commercially > produced. > The story about Beethoven's 9th has been repeated enough going back far enough by relevant parities enough time that I would give it the benefit of the doubt. However that sampling rates were set that way is far from being the usual story. The same argument fits a wide range of sample rates, the NTSC TV convergence supports the specific number that was chosen and is thus far more likely. > > Of course the great advantage vinyl had over CD was that you had to buy > it, or suffer the even worse sound of a cassette tape copy. > That makes no sense, since *vinyl has no technical advantages at all over the CD*. The LP does have the economic advantage that back in the day, virtually everybody had the players and media on hand as sunk costs. The myths about CD's alleged flaws were invented by high end audio dealers out of fear of being stuck with a massive investment in vinyl gear in inventory and also the means of production. By then they had already been telling numerous other lies about cables, tweaks, and magical power amps, so they had quite a bit of confidence that they could pull it off, and they did. > > I'm sure they hadn't anticipated the development of CD-R & CD-RW's, but > failing to put any copy protection onto CD's was definitely a blunder > with hindsight. > The torpedoing of CD recorders supports that. However, that was overcome by the PC craze. > > Bands seem to rely on sell-out tours rather than recordings sales to > fund their lifestyles these days... > Selling swag on the tours is big business. But I think it pales compared to the box office. The bands are often trying to overcome the heavy promotional costs of launching new artists. The web has changed this equation in many ways. Dave :) P.S. I like Mahler's 2nd because of the passion that he invests in it, & the finale is fantastic. I like Messiaen too who was also a committed Catholic, & Handel (who would have been Protestant). But I also like Verdi's Requiem. Joe Green was a firm atheist so he obviously had enough passion of his own to produce such a great "religious" work arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
ftlight wrote: > Yes, it's Alex's turntable on which he plays the music of Ludwig van: > http://www.filmandfurniture.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/record-player-1024x576.jpg > > There's also one in the Design Collection of the Museum of Modern Art in > New York: > https://www.moma.org/collection/works/3339 > > I really should replace the damping fluid, and I could also use a new > drive belt. Looking at it now, though, I see I have a V15 MkIV rather > than III. I still have the original Transcriptors arm, although I > replaced it with the SME as soon as I got the turntable (acquired in the > 1970s as part of a deal with Clive Taylor, former bassist of Amen > Corner). Morning Bill! You're taking me back. If only things could be "Half As Nice" again... Dave (wistful - no suitable emoticon available) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi Bill! > > It sure is a pretty deck (if you can find room for it, lol): you do have > to change the damping fluid periodically since it tends to get clogged > up with detritus. > > I'm afraid I stand my earlier comment that the LP12/Ittok with a low > compliance cartridge gets a lot more information out of the groove > however - the rationale is that the stylus moves, the arm/cartridge body > doesn't. Also there's no isolation of the turntable/arm board from the > rest of the deck on the Transcriptors. The strobe speed setting is very > :cool: in combination with the damping paddle fine tune, however. > > Ultimately more form than substance: well worth keeping as a work of art > though! > > Dave :) > > P.S. As I recall it got a few free product placements in the movies (I > think there's one in Kubrick's "A Clockwork Orange" if I remember > correctly,,, ) Yes, it's Alex's turntable on which he plays the music of Ludwig van: http://www.filmandfurniture.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/record-player-1024x576.jpg There's also one in the Design Collection of the Museum of Modern Art in New York: https://www.moma.org/collection/works/3339 I really should replace the damping fluid, and I could also use a new drive belt. Looking at it now, though, I see I have a V15 MkIV rather than III. I still have the original Transcriptors arm, although I replaced it with the SME as soon as I got the turntable (acquired in the 1970s as part of a deal with Clive Taylor, former bassist of Amen Corner). ftlight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5294 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > Yep, NICAM receiver only. Hifi stereo vhs was pretty good. Very reliant > on tracking stability though. Handy for recording stuff longer than 45 > minutes too.. The only (rather serious) drawback to VHS tapes & their containers was that they were flammable & emitted a particularly nasty combination of toxic gas & dense black smoke once on fire. Consequently having a whole wall of your lounge given over to the things was not a particularly GOOD IDEA. Thankfully CD's et al are not such a fire risk - they are *-compact-* as well... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Yep, NICAM receiver only. Hifi stereo vhs was pretty good, agreed. Very reliant on tracking stability though. Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > NICAM was an interesting technology, but it was only used on the > broadcast side. A VCR recorded analogue audio. Maybe you knew that, I > wasn't clear from your post so just clarifying. > > Cheers! > > Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk Agreed, analogue audio recorded at 30ips, although not on 2" wide master tape format sadly. The tuner in the VHS recorder did have to decode the near (but not quite!) instantaneously compounded audio multiplex part of the TV transmission however. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
NICAM was an interesting technology, but it was only used on the broadcast side. A VCR recorded analogue audio. Maybe you knew that, I wasn't clear from your post so just clarifying. Cheers! Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > Undoubtedly this. Nicam produced a companded 14 bit digital signal, > iirc, but it was rarely used outside of the UK. > > Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk It didn't sound that shabby though. I was highly amused that the most impressive effect came from a Domestos bleach commercial in which the bottle leapt enthusiastically off the lid of the loo & landed on the floor with a resounding thud! ;) Of course TV advertising was ridiculously expensive so there was no reason for the makers to hold back on the production budget for a 30 second long "feature" & many of them were better made than the programmes that they interrupted... I do *-hate-* advertising & marketing generally though & hold them responsible for many of our self-inflicted ills :mad:. Dave (conflicted, no suitable emoticon) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > "This stop goes to 11. " While we're about it why not turn *-everything-* up to 11? Dave :D Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
cliveb wrote: > We know that the LP system is a complete dog's dinner compared to CD, > and yet it can give just as much enjoyment. I think this probably says > more about the limitations of the human auditory system than it does > about the engineering achievement. Hi Clive! I am in agreement with you, I got a lot of musical enjoyment from my analogue system back in the day, using inferior amplification & loudspeakers in comparison to my present set-up to boot. Whilst I wouldn't wish to eat a dog's dinner (well, unless I was *-seriously-* hungry & lacking in any prospect of on alternative... :p ) I am uncommonly fond of dogs themselves. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
I think that the musical performance is indeed paramount: I like the mono recordings of the incomparable Kathleen Ferrier (some of her most spell-binding efforts didn't even have the undoubted recording mastery of Walter Legge, since she disliked the bloke & escaped from Columbia as soon as she could to sign up with Decca). I also have a stunning recording of Dennis Brain playing Mozart's Horn Concertos accompanied by Walter Legge's Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by a relatively young Herbert von Karajan (before he became principal conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic & single-handedly responsible for 1/3rd of Deutsche Grammophon's classical music sales). This was also recorded in resplendent mono sound (by Walter Legge) in 1954, the year before I was born. I still have this as one of my legacy vinyl recordings, as well as a later (& superior) digital re-mastering from the antiquated analogue master tape. So I wholeheartedly agree that if the performance is sufficiently compelling one can quickly ignore any "technical" deficiencies in the recording process or the medium in which it is packaged. "Suspension of disbelief" appears to be a readily available option to the human brain. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
I actually think it says more about the /capability/ of the human auditory system than its limitations. It can pick the essence of great music from anything, more or less; be it pristine ultra-high bitrate digital, pristine but wow/fluttery/scratchy noisy compressed Vinyl, crappy Vinyl, wow and fluttery cassette tape, FM radio, even MW radio through a tinny little speaker in a plastic box being driven from two double-A batteries.. The enjoyment of the high fidelity of playback is a separate skill, only evolved by people with high disposable incomes and too much time on their hands Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
cliveb wrote: > We know that the LP system is a complete dog's dinner compared to CD, > and yet it can give just as much enjoyment. I think this probably says > more about the limitations of the human auditory system than it does > about the engineering achievement. Indeed. Under the right circumstances, the sound of FM radio or even cassette can give wonderful enjoyment. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > I happily accept all the above criticisms of LP's > > Mahler [] I don't think that he would have been impressed by the > quality of recorded music on LP, but I should imagine that he would have > been astonished that it was possible to do it at all. On the contrary, I suspect that if Mahler had heard a good vinyl LP of his music being played through a decent system, he would have been spellbound. Golden Earring wrote: > You know the old gag about the singing dog: it's not that the singing is > good, it's that it happens at all that's remarkable. Your post carries an undercurrent that implies that vinyl LP is pretty ropey but it was the best we had at the time, and that the fact it works at all is the most remarkable thing about it. But let's be realistic. Despite its technical flaws and limitations, vinyl LPs can sound absolutely fabulous. Some of my most enjoyable listening experiences have been from vinyl LPs. A small but not insignificant proportion of my FLAC collection is needle drops. Musical excellence transcends the delivery medium. We know that the LP system is a complete dog's dinner compared to CD, and yet it can give just as much enjoyment. I think this probably says more about the limitations of the human auditory system than it does about the engineering achievement. Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > I hear that. I took it to imply that there *-might-* be an advantage > going further than 16/44.1, although Nyquist-Shannon would still apply. And if Nyquist-Shannon does apply, there is no advantage of going further than 16/44.1 from a *timing* point of view. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > your hearing would also suffer if you did this regularly as well - a lot > of bass players get tinnitus from standing too close to their speaker > stacks (you'd think they'd stand somewhere else, but bass players do > seem to be a breed apart ;) ). > > Dave :) Hey, Indeed this is of course true, but also remember that dynamic peaks this high are rarely sustained. The overall average SPL could still be significantly lower than this. That's what DR is all about of course. .. unless you get an evil organist who likes to pull out all the stops at the same time and stands on those pedals with a 64' pipe attached for a while.. Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > Might also simply be because of the easier processing of word lengths > that are a multiple of 8. Undoubtedly this. Nicam produced a companded 14 bit digital signal, iirc, but it was rarely used outside of the UK. Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > Yes, that is a possibility. But my point is that there is nothing really > mysterious (or anything that breaks current scientific understanding) > about it. > > > > Absolutely. The problem is that audiophiles have used that paper to > argue that Nyquist-Shannon doesn't apply - but they are also the ones > arguing that a sampled signal supposedly can't represent time > differences smaller than one sample interval... I hear that. I took it to imply that there *-might-* be an advantage going further than 16/44.1, although Nyquist-Shannon would still apply. If the recordings had genuine provenance, of course... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > True, but I thought the Sony engineers enjoyed a challenge! You could > say that 44.1kHz is an odd choice of sampling frequency, but they stuck > with that one... Well, yes... The 44.1 kHz stems from video technology, especially Betamax. 44.1 kHz happens to be a convenient rate for both 50 Hz (3 samples per scan line) and 60 Hz video frame refresh rates. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > I thought that there was an implication that human hearing might have > more discriminatory ability than previously suspected. Yes, that is a possibility. But my point is that there is nothing really mysterious (or anything that breaks current scientific understanding) about it. > Ears have a very curious design & the human brain is simply the most > complex object yet discovered. So I think it's reasonable to suggest > that psychoacoustics is not as well understood as (say) Nyquist-Shannon > sampling theory... Absolutely. The problem is that audiophiles have used that paper to argue that Nyquist-Shannon doesn't apply - but they are also the ones arguing that a sampled signal supposedly can't represent time differences smaller than one sample interval... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > Morning, Dave, > > > > Might also simply be because of the easier processing of word lengths > that are a multiple of 8. True, but I thought the Sony engineers enjoyed a challenge! You could say that 44.1kHz is an odd choice of sampling frequency, but they stuck with that one... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Julf wrote: > I think all that that paper shows is that the human ear doesn't perform > a fourier transform, but uses discrete, parallel sensors (hair cells). I thought that there was an implication that human hearing might have more discriminatory ability than previously suspected. I shouldn't imagine fourier transforms come into it but nature does appear to make use of obscure physical phenomena sometimes: for example quantum entanglement has been proposed to offer a explanation for the almost 100% efficiency of photosynthesis in plants, & for the navigation based on minute changes in the earth's magnetic field by birds (robins were the subject of the study). It is only fair to say that alternative mechanisms have also been proposed so the jury is still out on these ideas. Ears have a very curious design & the human brain is simply the most complex object yet discovered. So I think it's reasonable to suggest that psychoacoustics is not as well understood as (say) Nyquist-Shannon sampling theory... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Morning, Dave, Golden Earring wrote: > This is presumably why Sony increased the projected resolution of its > new CD format from the originally proposed 14 bits to 16 bits during the > development phase... Might also simply be because of the easier processing of word lengths that are a multiple of 8. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
