[BAROQUE-LUTE] Hobach Sinfonia Etc in Pll-Wn RM 4138 (olim Mf 2005)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Does any one know if the other instrumental parts of the Sinfonia (on
   page 46 of
   this MS) survive? And their whereabouts? And, even better if they have
   a band set
they could scan or post a link to?
   --
   I had, at first, thought it might be a solo piece and the title
   referred to the style but,
on playing through I see a Tutti sign (seventh system down) against
   arpeggio
figurations that seem clearly to suggest other instruments (strings
   maybe with
a traverso even?). There are other following pieces by Hobach with the
   same
   texture: Andante (48), Allegro (49)  which may be movements from a
   multi
   movement Sinfonia.
   --
   Page 50 (a long Fuga) is headed Liuto Solo which, perhaps also suggests
   the
   previous idea. However later pieces in the MS by Hobach suggest solo
   pieces
   - though unmarked so ( others may know better).
   --
   This MS duplicates much in Olim Mf 2003) but these Hobach pieces seem
   unique
   (though. again, others may well know better).
   --
   I'm looking for a short DM lute Sinfonia.concerto to fit in a programme
   and this
   'galant' work seems attractive.(and not too tricky to work up!)
   MH

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: In Venetiis , Paris Weiss Ms II online

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Many thanks Markus
   Best wishes for 2020
   Martyn

   On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 23:38:24 GMT, Markus Lutz
wrote:
   Dear friends,
   I noticed some minutes ago, that the "In Venetiis" Weiss manuscript now
   is finally online:
   [1]https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52511501b
   Best regards
   Markus
   --
   Markus Lutz
   SchulstraÃe 11
   88422 Bad Buchau
   Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
   Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
   Mail [2]mar...@gmlutz.de
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References

   1. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52511501b
   2. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ask about using wood for fingerboard as ribs

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Yes - And finish it with Stand Oil (ie linseed Oil which has already
   partly oxidised - NB not the modern chemically altered stand oil used
   nowadays by artists), This gives a fine satin sheen finish on the wood
   and dries hard but remains flexible.
   MH

   On Wednesday, 27 November 2019, 10:42:20 GMT, David Van Edwards
wrote:
   Dear Jaroslaw,
   Yes, it's actually quite a good wood for ribs tonally and
   structurally and bends well. The surface pores are quite open so
   getting a sophisticated finish is harder. The bright red colour tones
   down quite rapidly into a nice orange brown.
   David
   At 10:29 +0100 27/11/19, =?UTF-8?Q?Jaros=C5=82aw_Czaplicki?= wrote:
   >Hello Everyone,
   >Can I use several fingerboard plank from padauk quartersawn with
   >dimensions  750 x 88 x 7mm for building back ribs?
   >Thanks for answering my questions
   >Best wishes
   >Jaroslaw Czaplicki
   >
   >--
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [2]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

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References

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   2. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Wenzel Ludwig Edler von Radolt

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you for this Bernhard,
   Yes indeed, Von Radolt has interesting things to say to us.
   An earlier FoMRHI joint paper explores his instructions:
   Comm 737 Von Radolts instructions to lute players (,,,1701).
   [1]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-044.pdf
   This paper has an English translation of Von Radolt's
instructions  and also a commentary on them. As explained
in the paper, the translation aimed to be literal rather literary.
With regard to your observation about playing the concerts
   with just  one lute, here's what the translation has:
   This "Concert" is in four parts and so each lute part
   corresponds to a fiddle part, and because of the good high
   humour when one has taken a fiddle, a small bass, fiddle
   and a bass all tuned from the small lute, in this "Concert" the
   soprano part that is the small lute must at all times be set
   strongly, and so when the second and third lute are doubled
   then the first should be at least tripled, however if the second
   and third lutes are single the first must be set doubled, making
a particularly good effect when one part is played, accordingly,
   It is still complete when three single lutes are used with the
   other parts silent, in a similar way one can nevertheless one
   time expel all but the first lute playing alone, or with two lutes,
and it may also be well played with fiddles or oboes without
lutes or also with lutes without fiddles.'
   In short, virtually any combination was sanctioned by the composer
   regards
   MH

   On Monday, 5 August 2019, 19:05:02 BST, Fischer BE (Aon)
wrote:
 Dear lute friends,
 Wenzel Ludwig Edler von Radolt (Vienna, 1667 to 1716), an
 Austro-Italian aristrocratic descent, was a lutenist and composer in
 Vienna at the Imperial Court. He claims to have be inspired by the
 french Dufault. In 1701 he presented his lute concerts to Joseph I
 (Holy Roman Emperor since 1705). In total he printed 12 so-called
 'Concerti' in the collection "Die Aller Treüeste Freindin" (Die
   Aller
 Treueste Freundin). In his "Die Aller Treüeste Freindin", the lute
   was
 used for the first time as an obligato instrument in the string
 ensemble. These concerts document the use of Baroque lutes in
   different
 sizes.
 However, in the foreword to "Die Aller Treüeste Freindin" he
   announces
 that it was his first intension to composed pieces for the solo lute,
 and later then he added the other instruments. Accordingly he
 encourages other lutenists to play the lute parts of his 'Concerti'
   on
 the solo instrument with the words "Es betrügen sich auch gar
   wirklich
 jene, so glauben möchten, daà weillen dieses Werkh zum Concerten
 gemacht, man nicht ein jedes Stückh allein zu seiner
   Zeit-Vertreibung,
 schlagen könnte, in denen einem jeden daà Widerspil & Effect zeigen
 wird, denn dieses allein zu schlagen mein erstes absehen gewesen
   ist".
 (While I am fully capable to understand this old German language and
 its meaning, I am NOT capable translating this phrase into propper
 English. Sorry. You have to trust me).
 According I tried my best in home-recording some of his pieces from
   the
 lute concerto in d-minor on the solo baroque lute.
 In his compositions Radolt makes frequent use of separate playing the
 main and the octave strings of the bass courses, as well actively
 stopping individual strings.
 I play all pieces on my gut strung 11-course Frei lute (392 Hz.
   String
 length is 67 cm, build by Mr. Renatus Lechner), which is very close
   to
 Radolt's recommendation to play the lute piece on a small instrument.
 Please remember, I am full-time biochemist in Vienna, Austria. The
 audios are available in my "Viennalute A" channel

   [1][2]https://soundcloud.com/user-95241032/sets/lute-concerto-in-d-mino
   r-c
 omposed-by-wenzel-ludwig-edler-von-radolt-1701
 I appriate your critical comments, and please: the much more capables
 and professionals among you/us should take on this inspiration to
   play
 the baroque lute music composed by Wenzel Ludwig Edler von Radolt
   more
 than 300 years ago.
 Ernst Bernhard, Vienna.
 Please also visit my other lute channels "Viennalute 1"
 [2][3]https://soundcloud.com/user-32080944 / and "Viennalute 2"
 [3][4]https://soundcloud.com/user-731566193
 --
   References
 1.
   [5]https://soundcloud.com/user-95241032/sets/lute-concerto-in-d-minor-c
   omposed-by-wenzel-ludwig-edler-von-radolt-1701
 2. [6]https://soundcloud.com/user-32080944 /
 3. [7]https://soundcloud.com/user-731566193
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-044.pdf
   2. https://soundcloud.com/user-9524

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck lute in Leipzig

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear David,
   Yes indeed.  And to add to your guesstimate about lutes, the number of
   extant mandoras/gallicons is only about 70 made between 1688 and 1780
   (most are listed Dieter Kirsch 'La mandora au XVIII siecle'). Although
   their geographical area of production (and common use) was quite
   limited, I similarly guess that this represents but a proportion of all
   those made.
   However I gain the impression (such as from the day's snapshot of
   Maler's workshop you mention) that the earlier workshops run by Maler
   et al were quite large industrial concerns, whereas later makers like J
   C Hoffmann seem to have worked much on their own (perhaps buying in a
   few parts) and so, even if there were still quite a lot of makers in
   this later period, perhaps lute (and mandora) production was not then
   as staggeringly enormous as it was at its peak in the sixteenth
   century.
   Are you aware of any 'snapshots' about these later makers and their
   stocks?
   Martyn
 __

   From: David Van Edwards 
   To: howard posner 
   Cc: baroque-lute 
   Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2018, 9:27
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course
   swan-neck lute in Leipzig
 Dear Howard,
 You are absolutely right, we need constantly to remember that.
 At the conclusion of a piece I wrote about the timber trade for
 lutemakers I put the following totally unscientific guesstimate. This
 is in the context of just 826 surviving lutes of all periods
   including
 a lot of late mandoras and baroque lutes which fall outside my
 guesstimate.
 The numbers of lutes produced must have been quite staggering when we
 consider that just a one day snapshot of Laux Maler's workshop shows
 over a thousand lutes and a similar snapshot shows 376 Moises
 Tiefembruker lutes.  And these are only two of dozens of workshops
 producing lutes for at least 150 years. One would have to make far
   too
 many assumptions to calculate anything like a reliable figure. But if
   I
 just offer a totally unreliable 'back of envelope' calculation using
 fairly conservative figures of 25 workshops producing 300 lutes per
 year over 150 years that makes 1,125,000 lutes. The same proportion
   of
 yew lutes as have survived gives 292,207 yew lutes with, say 25 ribs,
 that makes well over 7 million yew lute ribs.
 The depredations of the arms trade and the lutemakers mean that there
 are now no significant stands of yew in the whole of Europe and it is
   a
 protected species over much of the continent.
 Best wishes,
 David
 At 22:30 -0800 14/2/18, howard posner wrote:
   > On Feb 13, 2018, at 3:38 AM, Luca Manassero
   <[1]l...@manassero.net>
   wrote:
   >
   >  this could be a sort of proof that lutes extending to the
   contra-G
   >  existed, but in that case why is this an unicum?
   Because all the other 14-course lutes were lost in fires, or eaten
   by termites, or rotted in damp basements, or, if they were built
   like the Hoffman instrument we've been talking about, were
   converted
   into soup kettles or small boats?
   We all know that surviving lutes are a fossil record-a tiny remnant
   of the instruments that were built and played in their day-but we
   constantly forget it and fall into the trap of assuming that what
   survives in that record is an indication of the numbers that
   existed
   three centuries ago.  It's possible that there was only one
   14-course German baroque ever, but far more likely that there were
   others that have perished over time.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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 Norwich,  NR1 4HB
 England.
 Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
 Website: [3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
 --

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References

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   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck lute in Leipzing

[Martyn Hodgson]

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Crickey!  
Same end clasp design as the other two though - is it unique to Hoffmann do you 
know?.
Martyn



  From: David Van Edwards 
 To: Martyn Hodgson  
Cc: Luca Manassero ; baroque-lute 

 Sent: Tuesday, 13 February 2018, 14:21
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck 
lute in Leipzing
   
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian 
Hoffmann, 14course swNothing like this monster though. Body width 335 Depth 233
David
At 12:21 + 13/2/18, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   Two other well known lutesby Johann Christian in the Brussels
   collection are fairly deep too, having a depth greaterthan half the
   width (roughly 0.57):
   Leipzig 1716 eleven course (M 1559): body length 495;width 323; depth
   185
   Leipzig 1730 thirteen course with bass rider (M 3188):496;  322; 181
   regards
   Martyn
    __

   From: Luca Manassero 
   To: baroque-lute
   Sent: Monday, 12 February 2018, 18:08
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Johann Christian Hoffman n, 14course swan-neck
   lute in Leipzing
     Dear common wisdom,
     a couple of years ago I stumbled upon theLeipzig Museum website,
     planned to visit their Hoffman exhibition(but had to pass on it,
     unfortunately) - then one day realized thatthe pictured Hoffmann
     swan-neck lute they recently acquired (2012,says the YouTube video)
     mounts 14 courses: 8 fretted and 6 at thesecond pegbox (2x1, 6x2,
     6x2).
     See[1][1]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php: it's
   the
     first instrument pictured under JohannChristian Hoffmann' section on
     the page.
     It's a really strange instrument with anincredibly deep body (it
   must
     be uneasy to hold, or at least it looksso).
     I'm sure the book about Hoffmann theysell

  ([2][2]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christia
   n-h
     offmann.html) has all the measures about thatinstrument, but that
   book
     is really kind of expensive. The Museum'swebsite doesn't talk about
     string length and date on this lute (I doread German and couldn't
   find
     the infos anywhere on the website)
     The YouTube video on the same page shows aGerman lutenist (Sven
     Schwannberger, I think) playing a swan-necklute, which is of course
     not the original Hoffmann lute, as it shows13 courses, as usual.
     Anybody out there who has more details aboutit?
     Thanks a lot,
     Luca
     --
   References
     1.[3]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php
     2.
  [4]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-ho
   ffmann.html
   To get on or off this list see list information at
  [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Virus-free. [6]www.avast.com

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References

   Visible links
   1.http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php:
   2.http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-h
   3.http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php
   
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England.
 
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Crickey!  Same end clasp design as the other 
two though - is it unique to Hoffmann do you know?.Martyn   From: David Van Edwards 
<da...@vanedwards.co.uk> To: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> 
Cc: Luca Manassero 
<l...@manassero.net>; baroque-lute 
<baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, 13 February 2018, 14:21 Subject: [BA!
 ROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck  lute  in 
Leipzing   
<!--
#yiv3015484573 blockquote, #yiv3015484573 dl, #yiv3015484573 ul, #yiv3015484573 
ol, #yiv3015484573 li {padding-top:0;padding-bottom:0;}
-->[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14
course sw
Nothing like this monster 
though. Body width 335 Depth 233


David

At 12:21 + 13/2/18,

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck lute in Leipzing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Two other well known lutes by Johann Christian in the Brussels
   collection are fairly deep too, having a depth greater than half the
   width (roughly 0.57):
   Leipzig 1716 eleven course (M 1559): body length 495; width 323; depth
   185
   Leipzig 1730 thirteen course with bass rider (M 3188): 496;  322; 181
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Luca Manassero 
   To: baroque-lute 
   Sent: Monday, 12 February 2018, 18:08
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Johann Christian Hoffman n, 14 course swan-neck
   lute in Leipzing
 Dear common wisdom,
 a couple of years ago I stumbled upon the Leipzig Museum website,
 planned to visit their Hoffman exhibition (but had to pass on it,
 unfortunately) - then one day realized that the pictured Hoffmann
 swan-neck lute they recently acquired (2012, says the YouTube video)
 mounts 14 courses: 8 fretted and 6 at the second pegbox (2x1, 6x2,
 6x2).
 See [1][1]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php: it's
   the
 first instrument pictured under Johann Christian Hoffmann' section on
 the page.
 It's a really strange instrument with an incredibly deep body (it
   must
 be uneasy to hold, or at least it looks so).
 I'm sure the book about Hoffmann they sell

   ([2][2]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christia
   n-h
 offmann.html) has all the measures about that instrument, but that
   book
 is really kind of expensive. The Museum's website doesn't talk about
 string length and date on this lute (I do read German and couldn't
   find
 the infos anywhere on the website)
 The YouTube video on the same page shows a German lutenist (Sven
 Schwannberger, I think) playing a swan-neck lute, which is of course
 not the original Hoffmann lute, as it shows 13 courses, as usual.
 Anybody out there who has more details about it?
 Thanks a lot,
 Luca
 --
   References
 1. [3]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php
 2.
   [4]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-ho
   ffmann.html
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Virus-free. [6]www.avast.com

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - life after death....

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   Oh good -  I see it's open again for business as usual.
   So why on earth did you write in your last "As far I am
   concerned the matter is now closed."?
   Ah well - on with the motley. I'll reply and send you my
   further comments on this and your previous in due course.
   But, meanwhile, thank you for finally coming up with your
   latest revised views of what you think the instruments
   required by this MS actually were. Included in these is
   your continuing unexplained assertion that the twelve
   course instrument with seven added basses was a
   mandora which, since there's no historical evidence
   whatsoever that such an instrument ever existed, is
   particularly strange - especially whilst the known
   arch/theorboed guitar is denied any place in your
   considerations! Is this because you cannot bring yourself
   to finally accept a more obvious and rational explanation:
   that the gytarra may have been nothing more than - gulp -
   a guitar and not a lute ?...
   regards
   Martyn
   PS To  what specifically unfair comment do you refer when
   you tell of the "600 words of unpleasant personal comments
   which have nothing to do with the mandora or gallicon"? Have
   you never actually read your own postings objectively?
   But, as said before, perhaps it's all in the eye of the beholder -
   others can be our judges.
   MH
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
   To: VihuelaList 
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson 
   Sent: Monday, 12 February 2018, 21:44
   Subject: MS CZ- Bm D 189 - the Last Post
   Dear Martyn
   I am sorry to have denied you the opportunity to fully reply to my
   message of 31 Jan and its various inconsistencies and
   'misrepresentations'.
   I prefer to consider my inconsistencies and "misrepresentation"s as an
   attempt to keep an open mind and examine different ideas about what we
   find in this manuscript before arriving at any tentative conclusions.
   (Incidentally the correct RISM siglum for the manuscript is CZ-Bm D
   189).
   In my final message I clearly stated â
   1. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that the "Gytarra" is a
   6-course
   instrument. It may be synonymous with the 6-course mandora which
   Martyn
   says was common at the time. It is also clear that the section between
   the first two double bar lines on f.48v is a tuning check for the 6-
   course "Gytarra" on f.48r; the last bar shows that the open bass is
   tuned to the same note as the third course.
   2. The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass
   courses of the "Mandora" numbered 6-12 starting with G.
   3. It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very
   broad
   genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise
   identity is uncertain.
   4. The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the "Gytarra"; those from f.60r-
   f. 76r are for a 5-course "Mandora"; and those from f.76v-f.95r
   numbered 1-56 are probably for 5-course guitar.
   Your suggestion that we should now agree to disagree simply indicates
   that you are not willing to admit that anything you say is wrong.  A
   number of things you have said are nonsensical.
   1. The fact that the manuscript includes a piece by Losy does not
   indicate that it was copied during his life time. It could have been
   copied anytime in the 18th century, at least as late as the 1760s.
   2. Your comment -  "A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve
   courses never existed in the period covered by the dating of D- 189."
   You may not have come across another reference to such an instrument
   referred to as a "mandora" in another 18th century source but this
   does
   not prove that such an instrument didn't exist in Rajhrad at the time
   the manuscript was copied. It may have been quite rare.
   3. Your comment- "Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable,
   identification of the couple of works for an instrument with seven
   extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar".
   It certainly is  not a likely and reasonable identification  â there
   are all sorts of other instruments which it might have been. It
   certainly doesn't prove that it was figure-of-eight shaped.
   4. Your comment - "Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f.
   69v) for Mandora 1 and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the
   composer preferred this particular piece with these instruments this
   way or maybe they didn't have two guitars available? "
   No, you obviously don't know - The parts are labelled in that way to
   indicate that the two pieces are to be played as a duet rather than as
   separate pieces for a single mandora. Your suggestion that they didn't
   have two guitars available is a fairy 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Regarding: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - weathering the storm!

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   That's a shame since, due to all these baroque
   manoeuvrings around the mandora and gytarra, we've
   never actually got round to properly considering the
   original issue I raised!  This, you may recall, was
   whether the widespread use in the seventeenth century
   of the high octave on the bass (thumb) side of a guitar
   octave pair actually continued to be the general practice
   in the eighteenth century - especially in German
   speaking and Nordic lands (for example, in works by
   Diesel, say, as well as pieces contained in D-189).
   Your earlier postings have been carefully perused but,
   unfortunately, are sometimes contradictory over the
   particular central matter of what instruments you now
   believe are required for the pieces in this MS.
   Accordingly I had thought that, because of these
   previous inconsistencies, you'd welcome an opportunity
   to make a final and unequivocal statement as to your
   latest position. Clearly, without knowing precisely what
   this now is, it's simply not possible to make further
   headway. So, perhaps, drawing a line may be
   appropriate - though I do feel rather denied the
   opportunity to fully reply to yours of 31 Jan and its
   various inconsistencies and 'misrepresentations'.
   Nevertheless, as I first suggested quite a few postings
   ago, let's therefore now agree to disagree...
   Finally, I'm a bit taken aback about 'bullying' since, to
   be quite frank, I felt very much the one on the receiving
   end!  Indeed, I've generally aimed to maintain polite
   exchanges where possible.  Ah well, perhaps it's all in
   the eye of the beholder - others can be our judges.
   regards,
   Martyn
   PS. Sorry - but, to quickly pre-empt another red herring in
   the offing, I'm obliged to mention that the mandore and
   the mandora are actually two entirely different instruments...
   
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
   To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson 
   Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 11:34
   Subject: Re: MS CZ- Bm D 189
   Dear Martyn
   If you had taken the trouble to read the message that I sent to the
   Vihuela
   list on 31st January you would know what my conclusions about this
   manuscript were. There is no need for me to clarify my position
   further
   and I do not believe you are interested in composing a constructive
   reply.
   It seems that all you are interested in is bullying someone who
   disagrees with you by misrepresenting what they have said and by
   posting offensive personal comments about them to as many people as
   you
   can.
   As far I am concerned the matter is now closed.
   Monica
   

   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 10/02/2018 10:07
   To: "[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Baroque Lute
   List"
   <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
- a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica,
   Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply
   scroll down to find it..
   Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would
   you now please  simply and, is it too much to hope, politely
   answer the direct question put to you.  As carefully explained,
   this will provide you with the opportunity to properly clarify
   your precise position over the instruments required for the
   pieces in this MS and will then enable a constructive reply to
   be composed.
Here's the relevant question again:
'- as I understand it from what you have earlier written, your
   position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of  the some 124
   works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course
   gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to
   you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and
   seven free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven
   unstopped basses" )'
Is this still a correct statement of your position?
regards
Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
   lute family instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such
   messages are therefore entirely relevant on that list.  If the
   mandora were a guitar I wouldn't.

   =
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ.
   Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Martyn
   The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
   sent t

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down
   to find it..
   Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now
   please
   simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct question
   put to you.
   As carefully explained, this will provide you with the opportunity to
   properly
   clarify your precise position over the instruments required for the
   pieces in this
   MS and will then enable a constructive reply to be composed.
   Here's the relevant question again:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position
   is that the vast
   majority (about 98%) of  the some 124 works for plucked instruments in
   this MS
   are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora
   (according to
   you a twelve course instrument with  five fingered courses and
   seven free
   basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
   Is this still a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   family
   instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such messages are
   therefore
   entirely relevant on that list.  If the mandora were a guitar I
   wouldn't.
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Martyn
   The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
   sent to the Vihuela List  on the 31st January.
   I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT
   CAREFULLY.  It is the second down below your latest message.
   Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say
   about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking
   about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.
   Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I
   received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't
   think that anyone on that list  interested in anything you have to
   say.  I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit
   to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 09/02/2018 16:43
   To: "[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a
   fresh tack! 2
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
   VihuelaList
 <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
 Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack!
   2
Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to
   enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now
   confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required
   for the pieces in this MS.
   In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
 '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
 Is this a correct statement of your position?
 regards
 Martyn
 PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
   lute   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!

   =
 - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[9]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[11]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you
'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as
   meaning I might soon

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to enable
   me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm
   precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for the
   pieces in this MS.  In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that
   the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" )'
   Is this a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!
   ===
   ==
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by
   saying that you 'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore took
   this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner,
I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
   However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of
   Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora
   stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not
   a fiendish plot of any kind!  But on
with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases
 and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required:
   one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder
   requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I
   was at pains to point out earlier,
any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a
   low sixth where suitable in the
guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able
   to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional
free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in the
   usual register and, whilst we've
not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course
   numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces
   (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way
through the piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no
evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you
   favour such a  wide range of dates
   since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later
in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this
   collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   17

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   ---
   --
   2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
   Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified
   made between 1688 and 1780 (most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La
   mandora au XVIII siecle): the vast majority (97%) of these are six
   course instruments but a couple have more courses - one is 8 course and
   one 9 course . These two are both later eighteenth century and thus too
   late to be the sort of instruments originally employed for D-189.
   Extant instruments also well reflect contemporary iconography showing
   the overwhelming predominance of the six course mandora; and similarly
   with extant tablatures - though a very few do contain some pieces for 8
   or 9 course mandora (such as Univerzitna Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092
   which contains galant/classical music c.1770 requiring a mandora with
   eight courses). Note that these mandoras basically had these few
   additional courses on the same peghead (like earlier lutes) and did not
   employ the much longer extensions as found in the theorbo, archlute or,
   for that matter, the arch/theorboed guitar known from the seventeenth
   century onwards.
   Historically, the upper five cour

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Even more to yet moRe: re. Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Sunday, 14 January 2018, 16:35
   Subject: Even more to yet more: re. Moravsky Manuscript AND five course
   guitar stringing
   Dear Monica,
   =
   I've thought long and hard over whether to reply to yours below - my
   initial reaction was to leave it since life's really too short to spend
   much time trying to inform when a mind is effectively closed -correctly
   or not.  However, on reflection, and with the benefit of a few private
   communications, it's now thought best to politely, but firmly, respond
   and, yet again, point out the various inaccuracies, misreadings,
   misunderstandings and bias presented by your earlier partial responses
   and to politely point out that a careful reading of the evidence leads
   to different conclusions from those you have decided to prejudicially
   adopt.
   =
   In fact, I would normally respond by firstly thanking the sender for
   their contribution but, sadly, this cannot be the case with yours of 7
   Jan since you seem determined to avoid examining, and thus properly
   responding to, the detailed evidence I put before you about this MS,
   and simply continue to maintain some predetermined and procrustean
   position, which you've previously settled on, and to refuse any
   meaningful discussion of the historical evidence. Perhaps, dear Monica,
   you might also consider reading the threads with rather more care and
   less hurry, rather than impulsively dashing off hasty, partial and
   curtailed Trumpesque responses. This may also be linked to some sort of
   self-elected role as arbiter of political correctness in the early
   guitar field which, as with all such personalised promotions, can
   unwittingly result in an unwillingness to properly address contrary
   views and to crudely disparage any which are not entirely the same as
   your own  (. 'You seem to be so muddled that it is difficult to
   grasp what you actually mean'..).
   =
   But, as you will recall, we've been here before (and only a year ago -
   though in a different forum) so I suppose this strange method of
   conducting, what should normally surely be, a reasonably scholarly
   debate ought to come as no surprise to us.  What is more worrying,
   however, is that the experience of the earlier sorry exchange does not
   seem to have resulted in any modification subsequently. In particular,
   dear Monica, the use of these online fora as a sort of early guitar
   'Twittersphere'  (complete with bizarre Trump-like pronouncements,
   including: similar failures to properly consider evidence presented by
   others ('fake news'); similar tendencies to abruptly curtail debate;
   and even unexpected personal disparagement) really does make it
   extraordinarily difficult to engage in much rational discourse. You
   will no doubt be aware that some scholars and players are no longer
   willing to freely express their considered and thoughtful views in
   these online fora because of concern at being subject to what they
   consider as biased, partial and ill-founded representations of their
   opinions.
   =
   As expressed before, I have much admiration for some of the work you've
   done on the early guitar (especially the five course instrument) over
   the years  and the generosity with which you dispense advice to
   novices. Further as you know, our views do, amazingly enough, coincide
   in a number of important areas (for example, over the stringing of the
   seventeenth century instrument) but all this should not deflect any of
   us from politely questioning any mistaken conclusions you, me, or any
   other, put forward from time to time - provided this is based on a
   careful consideration of the evidence and what is actually being said.
   =
   Accordingly, I shall now once again revisit the earlier exchanges and
   try to briefly summarise the principal issues  (covered in fuller, if
   tedious, detail in my earlier emails and yours which are also copied
   below for convenience of all) which still require proper consideration
   rather than a brusque you are 'simply wrong' - but with no proper
   explanation!:
   =
   1. Tuning chart on f.48v: The basic tuning checks ('Accordo Gytarra et
   Mandora') given between the first double bar lines are for a five
   course guitar and for a six course mandora (the sixth course being but
   a tone below the fifth as here was quite common on the mandora in this
   period). This is all explained in more detail in my mailings below.
   =
   2. The tuning for an extended bass 12 course instrument refers to a
   guitar, which, of course, is known in an extended bass configuration
   from the seventeenth century - the rare multi-course mandora is only
   found significantly later in the eighteenth century and th

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Yet more Re: [VIHUELAR) Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica.
   My responses are interposed below in bold, new roman and italic for
   clear differentiation (sadly, though, not in my preferred typeface for
   the others on the list version which only goes to them in standard
   typeface and no spacing but, from what Wayne tells me, it'll reach you
   with correct typeface etc)
   I think we must still agree to disagree about much of
   this!..
   Best wishes,
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Daniel Shoskes ;
   VihuelaList 
   Sent: Saturday, 6 January 2018, 16:41
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Further to Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five
   course guitar stringing
   Unfortunately the folio numbers are not very clear in the pdf. Some of
   the pages seem to have been cropped on the right- hand side when the
   film was made and the recto and verso of each folio is on a single page
   of the pdf.
   -
   [MH: Yes - it's a shame about this]
   -
I will try to refer to the correct ones.
   To recap
   Folio 48r is headed "Fundamenta Gytarra".
   -
   [MH: Indeed, and not as just 'Cytarra' (or Chytarra) as correctly
   pointed
out in my last]
   -
The tablature checks indicate that this instrument has five stopped
   courses and one
   additional unstopped bass course. Folio 48v is headed "Accordo Gytarra
   et Mandora".
   -
   [MH: This is an incorrect assumption. The overwhelming bulk of pieces
   of
pieces in this MS are clearly written for just a five course
   instrument  (see
   my telling note earlier about the transcription for a five course
   instrument
- I naturally suggest for gytarra for this version of the same (Losy?)
   piece presented earlier for a six course instrument, the mandora).
   -
   You are right â I agree that these are two different instruments. The
   Gytarra has five
   stopped courses and one unstopped bass as shown in the first section of
   the tablature.
   -
   {MH: No, you've got this mixed up, as explained earlier and again in
   this
mail. The gytarra has five courses, the madora six. The theorboed
   instrument is probably a theorboed guitar a la Strad or similar..
   -
   The Mandora has seven unstopped basses as shown in the
   second section of tablature. It is to be assumed that the stopped
   courses of both instruments are tuned in the same way. It is not for a
   five course gytarra or a six course mandora as you seem to suggest.
   -
   [MH:  This is a mistaken view of what the source tells us since, as
already pointed out, most of the pieces (some 85% of them) in the MS
   are for just a five course instrument. You have assumed that the part
   between the first set of double bar lines refers equally to the
   gytarra
   and to the mandora.
   As already explained, this is mistaken because the overwhelming bulk
of  pieces in the MS are, in fact,  for a five course instrument (the
   gytarra) rather than for the common mandora tuning with six courses.
   I examine this matter again below]
   -
   I don't think either of these two examples refer to an instrument with
   just five stopped courses.
   -
   [ MH: as said above, you appear to have overlooked contrary
   information
   about the tablature already brought to your attention earlier.]
   -
   On Folio 96r there is a table of alfabeto chords and a tablature tuning
   chart headed "Accordo aliud" (?). If that is right I assume it means
   "another tuning" but my Latin or Czech is pretty basic. In the table of
   chords, the open courses to be included are only shown for Chord E;
   Chord is very odd â Indeed, as pointed out, they are wrong -  a B flat
   minor chord with G on the first course. There are stroke marks on the
   lowest line.
   -
   [MH: No - this is a simple bowlderisation and inaccurate
   representation
   of nominal five course guitar tuning (as employed in the following aria
set in tablature AND with Alafbeto - see my earlier note about this
   feature in this particular piece which has been overlooked). Clearly
   the tuning diagram showing an octave between the open first and fifth
fret on the third course makes no sense - neither does that between
   the
   third fret of the second course and the open third course! The scribe
   has simply got the courses wrong..
   It is the following aria (on f. 96v not on 96),  identified in my last,
   this
piece clearly confirms this piece as being in the ordinary nominal
   guitar
   tuning intervals - and not any known lute (or mandora!) tuning. The
   mandora never employed Alfabeto as appears in this work
   -
   As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth
   course is used seems to  depend on the key of the piece. Those on f.
   48v- f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys
   without sharps, whilst those from f. 60r âf.76v are in A major or D
   ma

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum
   We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly
   in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth
   (and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting
   something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early
   guitar.ning?) around this time.  I was especially interested in the
   stated link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and
   possible implications for placement of the high octave strings on the
   fourth (and fifth?) course.
   This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and
   the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course
   instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba
   pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five
   course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'.
   Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora'
   which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical
   tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e.   Especially note
   that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the
   extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing
   indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can
   be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what
   arrangement for bass stringing..
   This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course
   (presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not
   entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated
   by numbers 6 through to 12):  g,  f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or
   b(Bb), a.  However only the first musical example employs these
   additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to
   fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to
   illustrate the practice.
   Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in
   texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works
   attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel.
   It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as
   general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the
   music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass
   side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I
   wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie
   early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the
   5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side.
   This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works
   [1]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicology_Toda
   y-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s
   77-95.pdf
   Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course
   guitar
   The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side
   of the five course are all eighteenth century:  principally
   Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed
   guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic
   sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into
   the eighteenth century ..
   The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka
   Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some
   circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc -
   conversely it can also do exactly the opposite!  My view is that for
   much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from
   a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the
   instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and
   bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass
   string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the
   'bass' side of the guitar
   This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy'
   guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the
   mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this
   arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style
   and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a
   subjective judgement...
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
   To: dshos...@mac.com
   Cc: VihuelaList 
   Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript
   The music in tablature appears to be for 5-course guitar.  There are a
   few 5-part chords which could be strummed but it seems to be mainly in
   lute style and perhaps mid 18th century. How do we know that the music
   is actually by Losy? Which library owns it today?
   The 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Anthony Bailes paper in "The Lute" - and my holiday work

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Andreas,
   Henry is a shadowy figure to me amongst guitarists active in Paris at
   the time - do you have any information about him?. His Methode must
   have been reasonably popular since it's the 3rd edition and up against
   a great deal of competition in Paris at the time (1826) - and it's his
   Opus 71 too!
   And thank you for putting music from your collection on line. I'm
   particularly interest at the moment in works expressly conceived for
   the Spanish six course guitar - do you have anything? - in particular
   eighteenth century such music.  I've got stuff by Ferandiere 1799 of
   course and a few works by Laporta (in Biblioteca Hist Madrid) as well
   as pieces preserved in De Gistau's Journal, presumably originally for
   the Spanish six course instrument (?), by people like Soler, Martinez,
   Arizacochaga et als. But there seems a lacuna of such works in Spanish
   sources - have they really all been lost?
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Andreas Schlegel 
   To: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Sunday, 8 October 2017, 19:19
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Anthony Bailes paper in "The Lute" - and my
   holiday work
   Dear lutefriends,
   I saw in Anthony Bailes' wonderful article "The Bowe that is too much
   bent, breaketh"; The pitch of Miss Burwell's lute, reconsidered, in:
   The Lute LIV (2014), p. 1-35, some references to the website
   "accordsnouveaux.ch" which was for years available only in German.
   This was a sign to work today on Francois-Pierre Goy's and my homepage
   and I'm happy to announce that a good part of the website is now
   available in English, too.
   During the last months, Joachim Lüdtke worked on translations and I
   had now the opportunity to put the texts online - and to make all the
   links... But at some pages, the graphical result is not convincig...
   and I can't say where the mistake comes in.
   The missed sites will come soon, I hope.
   There are some special topics:
   Horaz:
   [1]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/Horaz/Horaz.html
   Tunings / accords:
   [2]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/Judentanz/Judentanz.html
   [3]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Tunings%20Survey/TuningsS.ht
   ml
   [4]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/TuningsC/TuningsC.html
   La Rhétorique des Dieux:
   [5]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/RdD%20Intro/Bremen/Bremen.html
   [6]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/AS.html
   scroll down to "Publications"
   Bullen Reymes (F-P. Goy):
   [7]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Writers/Writers.html
   Swiss sources:
   [8]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/SourcesCH/SourcesCH.html
   Benzenauer
   [9]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/AS.html
   scroll down to "Publications"
   The "Rodauer Lautenbuch" (D-Fschneider Ms 45)
   [10]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/RodauLB/RodauLB.html
   Guitar music:
   [11]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/GuitarLit/GuitarLit.html
   Enjoy!
   And if you see errors, please give an advice. Thanks!
   Andreas
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/Horaz/Horaz.html
   2. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/Judentanz/Judentanz.html
   3. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Tunings Survey/TuningsS.html
   4. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/TuningsC/TuningsC.html
   5. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/RdD Intro/Bremen/Bremen.html
   6. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/AS.html
   7. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Thesis/Writers/Writers.html
   8. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/SourcesCH/SourcesCH.html
   9. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/Authors/AS/AS.html
  10. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/RodauLB/RodauLB.html
  11. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/en/GuitarLit/GuitarLit.html
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thinning of a string will, of course, affect its flexibility where the
   thinning occurs but the state of the remainder of the string (ie the
   vast majority of it) remains unchanged and it is this which principally
   produces the sound and thus the quality. As remarked earlier, thinning
   at the bridge does have a benefit of reducing loss at this point by
   making a more focused take off point rather than one where the string
   can move significantly in the shallower groove produced by a thicker
   string.
   Thus, as we might expect and, indeed, experience the material and
   make-up of the totality of the string is what largely produces the
   sound we hear - hence, for example, why loaded gut produces a more
   satisfactory bass than plain gut.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Anthony Hind 
   To: Martyn Hodgson ; Martin Shepherd
   ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 20:45
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque
   Lute Stringing
 Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth
 Dear Martyn
   I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a
   string
 as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while maintaining
 its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by improving
 its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as possible
 for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which it
 moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar processes
 of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also
   effect
 the way a string resonates.
 Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I also
 apologise.
 Best wishes
 Anthony
 [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 Le vendredi, fà ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
 <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a à ©crit :
 Dear Anthony,
 I may well have misunderstood the point you make
 'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
 loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
 - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine
   the
 sound - else why bother?
 Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
 string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
 frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
 thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course,
   to
 say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
 immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
 determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
 material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise
   one
 might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the
   same
 if the bridge thinning were identical ..
 regards
 Martyn
   __
 From: Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
 To: Anthony Hind <[3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; JarosÃaw Lipski
 <[4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>; "[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
 <[6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
   Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings
   in
   question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
   problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
   could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
   something to be said for thinning them where they go through the
   hole
   in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
   easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
   Martin
   On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
 By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
 diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
 loaded
 string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
 through
 the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
 similarly
 to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
 material
 (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
 psses
 over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could
   you
 also thin it at the nut?
   Best wishes
   Anthony
 [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 Le vendredi, fà ©vrier 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
 [2]<[2][7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a à ©crit :
   J

[BAROQUE-LUTE] [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Anthony Hind ; JarosÅaw Lipski
   ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
 question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
 problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
 could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
 something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
 in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
 easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
   to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?
 Best wishes
 Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   [2]<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
 Just to explain:
 When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
 only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
 For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
 will
 not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
 to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
 than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
 Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
 they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
 bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
 probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
 bridge.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
 > Mimmo,
 >
 >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
 have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
 was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
 like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
 > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
 brighter than plain gut
 >
 >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
 > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have
 shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
 KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons.
 CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
 and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
 work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
   string
 spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
 >
 >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
 >> At present the second option is the winner!
 > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
 aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
   would
 be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
   little
 bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
 probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
 depend on whom you'll

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Once again Mimmo, many thanks for all your efforts and for taking the
   trouble to listen to us out here!
   I much liked your old loaded gut and I still have some on various lutes
   (including the 6th course of a large theorbo where it smooths the
   transition to the long basses). Close to these earlier loaded strings
   would be my choice but they should certainly not be less dull or less
   sustain than these. If in doubt perhaps a mixing of the two ingredients
   if this is possible? Sorry to add to your choices.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Mimmo Peruffo 
   To: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 7:29
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
 Unfortunately i cannot do it
 I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
 This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
 like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already
   stressed
 by me!
 I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
 string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
 stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better
   to
 switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
 stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
 Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
 second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
 Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
 Strings or not to strings? this is the question
 ah ah
 (my poor english at work)
 Ciao
 Mimmo
 ps
 which are your suggestion guys?
 -Messaggio originale-
 From: Arto Wikla
 Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
 To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [1]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
 Dear Mimmo,
 if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
 hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic
 version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
 arclute, great stuff.
 And big thanks for your invaluable work!
 Arto
 On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
 > Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer
 ones.
 > at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made
   of
 gut.
 > I will do some samples in advance.
 > Mimmo
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks for the clarification Mimmo.
   Unfortunately I'm playing in a concert on Saturday.  The mandolin
   meeting looks very interesting and I'd have liked to have attended that
   too!
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Mimmo 
   To: Martyn Hodgson 
   Cc: Matthew Daillie ; Martin Shepherd
   ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 12:39
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Thanks Martyn,
   I mean more predominant fundamental and less sustain, more percussive .
   Bacon is interesting here,
   By the way, I am leaving Italy to,London royal,college .,there is a
   meeting about mandolin this Saturday
   Any chance to,meet,you?
   Mimmo
   > Il giorno 02 feb 2017, alle ore 11:53, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto:
   >
   >  Dear Mimmo,
   >  Thank you for your continuing efforts in manufacturing these
   strings.
   >  I agree with much of what has been said: - especially with Martin
   >  Shepherd about the unfortunate influence rose pluckers have had on
   >  stringing often leading to high tensions of overwound strings in the
   >  bass to avoid rattles. Much of this is caused by the large amplitude
   of
   >  oscillation at the middle of a string when set in motion nearer the
   mid
   >  point than close to the bridge. So playing close to the bridge not
   only
   >  follows the practice of the post-sixteenth century 'Old Ones'  but
   also
   >  leads to real advantages. This manner of playing is, of course, also
   >  linked to the still widespread 'thumb under' school promoted from
   the
   >  1970s onwards as the 'proper true' way to pluck the lute!
   >  I also very much agree with your earlier observation that equal feel
   >  does not mean equal tension - the early writers would surely not
   have
   >  been reporting the outcome of scientific instrument measurements but
   of
   >  how it felt under the fingers when plucking. In short the stiffness
   of
   >  thicker strings of the same material can make them harder to set in
   >  motion and thus mislead into thinking more force is being applied.
   >  Incidentally, there can sometimes be confusion between elasticity
   and
   >  stiffness: elasticity is basically the ability of a material to
   resume
   >  its normal shape after being deformed (in this case stretched - a
   good
   >  thing in this context); whereas stiffness is the force required to
   >  deform (stretch ie displace) the string by an amount. Thus stiffness
   is
   >  related to what happens before a string is released whereas
   elasticity
   >  is what happens after. In this context elasticity is probably a good
   >  thing; stiffness not so.
   >  However my real purpose in writing is to ask precisely what you mean
   by
   >  a 'darker' sound. Is it one with a more predominant fundemental note
   or
   >  what?
   >  regards and, please, keep up the good work
   >  Martyn
   >__
   >
   >  From: Mimmo Peruffo <[2]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
   >  To: Matthew Daillie <[3]dail...@club-internet.fr>; Martin Shepherd
   >  <[4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   >  Cc: [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 10:01
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >  Mimmo again;
   >  the Gualtier tbel hs a diffrent interpretation that those relate to
   >  gauges
   >  or gut ribbons.
   >  I will do a article in matter in the next future.
   >  I am going to believe that maybe is better to switch to another
   >  elastomer
   >  whose elasticity is less. I have have already done some tests and I
   >  must
   >  admit that I was in figth with me which put in the market. Tony
   Bailes
   >  topld
   >  me: pout the stiffer one because the osund is darker and they are
   far
   >  less
   >  stretchly. Equal feel versus equal tension: well said dear Martin.
   >  there are
   >  other few things to consider; however the lute setup must be  done
   >  scaled.
   >  Ciao
   >  mimmo
   >  -Messaggio originale-
   >  From: Martin Shepherd
   >  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
   >  To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
   >  Cc: [1][6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >  Dear All,
   >  If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
   >  historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
   >  (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the
   habits
   >  of modern players using modern strings.
   

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Mimmo,
   Thank you for your continuing efforts in manufacturing these strings.
   I agree with much of what has been said: - especially with Martin
   Shepherd about the unfortunate influence rose pluckers have had on
   stringing often leading to high tensions of overwound strings in the
   bass to avoid rattles. Much of this is caused by the large amplitude of
   oscillation at the middle of a string when set in motion nearer the mid
   point than close to the bridge. So playing close to the bridge not only
   follows the practice of the post-sixteenth century 'Old Ones'  but also
   leads to real advantages. This manner of playing is, of course, also
   linked to the still widespread 'thumb under' school promoted from the
   1970s onwards as the 'proper true' way to pluck the lute!
   I also very much agree with your earlier observation that equal feel
   does not mean equal tension - the early writers would surely not have
   been reporting the outcome of scientific instrument measurements but of
   how it felt under the fingers when plucking. In short the stiffness of
   thicker strings of the same material can make them harder to set in
   motion and thus mislead into thinking more force is being applied.
   Incidentally, there can sometimes be confusion between elasticity and
   stiffness: elasticity is basically the ability of a material to resume
   its normal shape after being deformed (in this case stretched - a good
   thing in this context); whereas stiffness is the force required to
   deform (stretch ie displace) the string by an amount. Thus stiffness is
   related to what happens before a string is released whereas elasticity
   is what happens after. In this context elasticity is probably a good
   thing; stiffness not so.
   However my real purpose in writing is to ask precisely what you mean by
   a 'darker' sound. Is it one with a more predominant fundemental note or
   what?
   regards and, please, keep up the good work
   Martyn
 __

   From: Mimmo Peruffo 
   To: Matthew Daillie ; Martin Shepherd
   
   Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 10:01
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Mimmo again;
   the Gualtier tbel hs a diffrent interpretation that those relate to
   gauges
   or gut ribbons.
   I will do a article in matter in the next future.
   I am going to believe that maybe is better to switch to another
   elastomer
   whose elasticity is less. I have have already done some tests and I
   must
   admit that I was in figth with me which put in the market. Tony Bailes
   topld
   me: pout the stiffer one because the osund is darker and they are  far
   less
   stretchly. Equal feel versus equal tension: well said dear Martin.
   there are
   other few things to consider; however the lute setup must be  done
   scaled.
   Ciao
   mimmo
   -Messaggio originale-
   From: Martin Shepherd
   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
   To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
   Cc: [1]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Dear All,
   If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
   historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
   (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits
   of modern players using modern strings.
   We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from
   measuring
   bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
   that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well
   inescapable.
   Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too
   high, for several reasons.  One is that we are accustomed to wound
   strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are
   at too low a tension.  A related problem is that modern players tend to
   play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts.
   Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension
   across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a
   tapering
   of tension as we go down into the bass.  One interesting aspect of the
   iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down
   into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were
   equal.  To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining
   equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course
   on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th.
   On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string
   which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings
   will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a
   course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must
   be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Are you referring to the little strokes after the tablature letter 'a'
   as found, say, on page 115 in the ms? - I take them to be rests.
   Incidentally, in an earlier private correspondence about this
   particular ms I pointed out that the source contains some works very
   similar in texture to those by Nathanael Diesel in the very large ms
   compilation held in the Royal Library Copenhagen (Diesel was employed
   at the Danish royal court around 1740) thus confirming Nordic
   acquaintance with this sort of repertoire. I'd also suggest a date of
   around 1740 for the compilation of the Hertzberg MS.
   The works are treble and bass orientated and thus probably the
   instrument had bass bourdons on the fourth and fifth courses - perhaps
   even on the thumb side (like a lute).
   Whilst I'd agree that the likely instrument for the Hertzberg book
   pieces is the five course guitar (probably with bourdons), the music is
   also eminently playable on the five course mandora (an instrument
   rapidly gaining in popularity across Europe around this time) so this
   other possibility should not be ruled out.  Indeed, a very interesting
   ms source (CZ-Brn Ms D189) equates intabulated pieces for the guitar
   and also for the mandora/gallichon(here called Callezono).  For
   example, f. 48 has a 'Fundamenta Chytarra' and 48v has 'Accordo
   Chytarra et Mandora' with many pieces following (f.48v - f. 96v) for a
   five course guitar or mandora.
   Finally, regarding the old-fashioned nature of some of the contents of
   the Hertzberg book, it's not unusual for a young pupil to copy out
   works given them by their teacher. It's therefore not surprising that a
   teacher from an earlier generation would have passed on works from
   their own youth.
   MH
 __________

   From: G. C. 
   To: Martyn Hodgson 
   Cc: AJN ; "chriswi...@yahoo.com"
   ; "theoj89...@aol.com" ;
   "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2016, 20:12
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
   I haven't seen those accentuated "a"s before in a BG ms.
   G.

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Henning has written about this book - I've no reason to doubt it.
   [1]http://folk.uio.no/henninho/Gitar.html
   MH
 __

   From: AJN 
   To: kalei...@gmail.com; chriswi...@yahoo.com
   Cc: theoj89...@aol.com; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2016, 14:19
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
 It might be considered to be a tablature and autograph book of Niels
 Hertzberg.
 The dates (1829-230) all are in the autograph sections (page
 120ff./side 126ff.).
 Modegaard, Malmanger and Ullensvang are among the place names I
 could read by the autograph signatures.
 There are many of these autograph books from former years.
   Especially
 compiled by
 university students. Some have tablature pieces and drawings (e.g.,
   of
 students serenading).
 On 01/03/16, G. C.<[2]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
 You might be right about that, as the repertory seems extremely old
   for
 1830. But the book was used also as a guest book, and those dates
 around 1829-30 are mainly to be found there. The front page seems to
   be
 a description of the lady who owned the book, (perhaps by a
   descendant,
 after her death), but I have problems reading those.
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   References
 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

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References

   1. http://folk.uio.no/henninho/Gitar.html
   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   The book first belonged to Johanne Christine Hertzberg (1708 - 1801)
   and in my view was mostly compiled around 1740/50 but contains some
   works from late seventeenth century French sources. The music is also
   very similar to that by Nathanael Diesel in the large MS compilation
   held in the Royal Library Copenhagen (Diesel was employed at the Danish
   royal court around 1740) thus confirming Nordic acquaintance with this
   sort of repertoire.
   The works are treble and bass oreientated and thus probably the
   instrument had bass bourdons on the fourth and fifth courses - perhaps
   even on the thumb side (like a lute).
   The music is also eminently playable on the five course mandora (an
   instrument rapidly gaining in popularity across Europe around this
   time) so this possibility should not be ruled out.
   MH
 __

   From: Stuart Walsh 
   To: theoj89...@aol.com; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2016, 5:11
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
   It's for five-course guitar. 17th century I think.
   -Original Message-
   From: "[1]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[2]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: a03/a01/a2016 04:05
   To: "[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
 All:
 I ran across this baroque lute manuscript in the Norway National
   Museum
 (Nasjonalbibliteket). From about 1830, it seems rather late for
   baroque
 lute. Does anyone know anything about the manuscript or the music?
   And
 my Norwegian is quite poor (read - nonexistent) - is it possible to
 download the manuscript from the website (or order it? there is a
 shopping cart icon)? Cheers- trj

   [5]http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. mailto:theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Sterling,
   Further to your note about the very largest of German Dm lutes, we
   might also recognise that they may have had the so-called German
   theorbo tuning ie with the first course at a nominal d' which could
   thus bear the increased stress of such a string length.  Instruments
   more obviously of a theorbo disposition (ie with relatively short
   fingerboards in relation to the body length) such as the late large
   bodied Schelle may not have been the only pattern of instruments to
   dispense with a first course at a nominal f'.
   regards
   Martyn

   - Forwarded Message -
   From: sterling price 
   To: BENJAMIN NARVEY 
   Cc: baroque lute list 
   Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 9:12
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers
 Benjamin-
 I am impressed that you get around on that lute with small hands. I
 have large hands and the only key that gives me trouble is A major
 sometimes.
 At the moment I have mine tuned at AA5 with a nylon (I think) first
 course.
 Might I ask what 76cm lute you are playing? I have also wondered
   about
 those even larger Edlingers around 80cm.
 -Sterling
   __
 From: BENJAMIN NARVEY <[1]luthi...@gmail.com>
 To: sterling price <[2]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
 Cc: baroque lute list <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:55 AM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers
   Dear Sterling,
   I have been playing Weiss, et al., on a 76cm string length recently
 and
   it works nicely, although for some of the crazier keys where big
   stretches are involved it can be uncomfortable. That said, most of
 the
   rep works fine on that string length - and I have very small hands.
   At 392 you can have a gut f' last several weeks, although lower
   would
   probably work even better. I have a large 11c I keep at 370, it
 sounds
   nice and meaty.
   Hope this helps.
   Regards,
   Benjamin
   On Thursday, July 11, 2013, sterling price wrote:
 Hi all--
 The list has seemed very inactive lately so here is a
   question:
 Is
 there anyone on the list who plays a baroque lute on the big
 side, say
 around 76 cm? I am just curious as to what strings and pitch
 has
 worked
 for you. I just adore my Larry Brown 1987 Edlinger, and I'm
 thinking of
 trying something new with the strings. It has a mix of just
 about
 everything now.
 Thanks!
 --Sterling
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1][1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   [2]www.luthiste.com
   t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44
   p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98
   --
 References
   1. [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   2. [3][6]http://www.luthiste.com/
 --
   References
 1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 3. [9]http://www.luthiste.com/

   --

References

   1. mailto:luthi...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.luthiste.com/
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. http://www.luthiste.com/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Sterling,
   But, of course as I'm sure you know, any string length will 'work' with
   gut. It all depends on the pitch to which one chooses to tune a
   particular instrument - a low enough pitch and even the highest course
   will last indefinitely but, naturally, the bass register might become
   unacceptably muddy. This is no doubt the reason behind the old advice
   to tune the first string as high as it will go (without, presumably,
   incurring unacceptably frequent breakages).
   Even if using modern synthetic strings I'd still suggest trying to use
   the sort of pitch which might have been used historically on a
   particular sized instrument.
   Martyn
 __

   From: sterling price 
   To: Martyn Hodgson ; baroque lute list
   
   Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 9:21
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers
   Martyn--
   I know those trebles would sound great in gut, but I don't think I'm
   brave enough for a gut 1st course at that string length. I would try
   gut on the 2nd course though...
   --Sterling
 __________

   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: sterling price ; baroque lute list
   
   Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:48 AM
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers
 It all depends on how often you're prepared to replace the highest
 pitched course (ie the first string): at modern pitch A440 with a
   76cm
 fingered string length, e'flat would be the highest I would normally
 expect ie nominal f' at A392 (a whole tone under usual modern pitch).
 Indeed, depending on the gut supplied, you might find a little lower
 would significantly increase first string life.
 MH
   __
 From: sterling price <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
 To: baroque lute list <[2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 2:10
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Big Edlingers
   Hi all--
   The list has seemed very inactive lately so here is a question: Is
   there anyone on the list who plays a baroque lute on the big side,
 say
   around 76 cm? I am just curious as to what strings and pitch has
 worked
   for you. I just adore my Larry Brown 1987 Edlinger, and I'm
   thinking
 of
   trying something new with the strings. It has a mix of just about
   everything now.
   Thanks!
   --Sterling
   --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   2. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Big Edlingers

[Martyn Hodgson]

   It all depends on how often you're prepared to replace the highest
   pitched course (ie the first string): at modern pitch A440 with a 76cm
   fingered string length, e'flat would be the highest I would normally
   expect ie nominal f' at A392 (a whole tone under usual modern pitch).
   Indeed, depending on the gut supplied, you might find a little lower
   would significantly increase first string life.
   MH
 __

   From: sterling price 
   To: baroque lute list 
   Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 2:10
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Big Edlingers
 Hi all--
 The list has seemed very inactive lately so here is a question: Is
 there anyone on the list who plays a baroque lute on the big side,
   say
 around 76 cm? I am just curious as to what strings and pitch has
   worked
 for you. I just adore my Larry Brown 1987 Edlinger, and I'm thinking
   of
 trying something new with the strings. It has a mix of just about
 everything now.
 Thanks!
 --Sterling
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pierre Gaultier in 1720! Old "early music"?

[Martyn Hodgson]

or vibrato

   MH

   From: Mathias Roesel 
   To: baroque-lute mailing-list 
   Cc: Lute List 
   Sent: Monday, 27 May 2013, 19:34
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pierre Gaultier in 1720! Old "early music"?
   I do not own a copy of RA-BAn Ms. 236.R - 13769, but the incipits (thx,
   Bernd!) show hash key signs. The hash key sign, if at all it occurs in
   baroque lute manuscripts, does not signify long appogiature. but,
   rather,
   trills, starting on the main note. Sometimes, it is combined with the
   comma
   (see e. g. the Pickering lute book). If that is correct, one may safely
   assume that the pieces by Pierre Gaultier in RA-BAn Ms. 236.R - 13769
   closely stick to the composer's ornaments. His trills start on the main
   note.
   Mathias
   > -Original Message-
   > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   Behalf Of
   > Bernd Haegemann
   > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:43 PM
   > To: Arto Wikla
   > Cc: [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; lutelist Net
   > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pierre Gaultier in 1720! Old "early
   music"?
   >
   > Dear Arto
   > >
   > > I happened to find something interesting: A Courante by Pierre
   > > Gaultier in a ms. of much later times,
   > >
   > That's not the only one in the so called "Kalivoda Ms."
   >
   >
   [4]http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?langTHu&id=1&exFilter=1&type=mss&st=
   0&title
   =&
   > key=&msnam=RA&comp=Gaultier
   >
   <[5]http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?langTHu&id=1&exFilter=1&type=mss&st
   =0&titl
   e=
   > &key=&msnam=RA&comp=Gaultier>
   >
   >
   > best regards
   > Bernd
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. 
http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?lang%C3%9Eu&id=1&exFilter=1&type=mss&st=0&title
   5. 
http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?lang%C3%9Eu&id=1&exFilter=1&type=mss&st=0&titl
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thomas Mace and Cozen-German

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I think it means a cousin from the same family. Mace might then be
   describing a relative
   MH
   --- On Mon, 5/11/12, Peter Steur  wrote:

 From: Peter Steur 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Thomas Mace and Cozen-German
 To: "Baroque Lute" 
 Date: Monday, 5 November, 2012, 8:43

   --Boundary-00=_BXA0H890
   Content-Type: Text/Plain;
 charset="utf-8"
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Dear collected wisdom,
   in his very first Sett of Lessons, Thomas Mace gives one of his Lessons
   a
   (to me) rather curious name: Cozen-German". Can any of you enlighten me
   about the possible meaning of this name. Straightforwardly (according
   to the
   vocabulary), it would be "cheat-german", but I'm not sure whether it is
   some
   pun regarding Germans in general (cheat a german - cheating the german
   way?)
   some reference to the political situation of the time, or something
   else
   that escapes me.
   Any help is definitely appreciated!
   Best regards,
   Peter Steur
   Moncalieri (Italy)
   --Boundary-00=_BXA0H890
   Content-Type: Text/HTML;
 charset="utf-8"
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   
   
   
   
   v\:* {behavior:url (#default#vml);}
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Dear collected wisdom,
    
   in his very first Sett of Lessons, Thomas Mace gives one of
   his Lessons a (to me) rather curious name: Cozen-German". Can any of
   you enlighten me about the possible meaning of this name.
   Straightforwardly (according to the vocabulary), it would be
   "cheat-german", but I'm not sure whether it is some pun regarding
   Germans in general (cheat a german - cheating the german
   way?), some reference to the political situation of the time, or
   something else that escapes me.
    
   Any help is definitely appreciated!
    
   Best regards,
   
    
     Peter Steur
   Moncalieri
   (Italy)http://www.incredimail.com/?id`3560&rui o 898138&sd
   121105">
   --Boundary-00=_BXA0H890--
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   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Mathias,

   Thanks for this.

   Italian 7/8 course lutes are distinctly different to
   the mandoras/gallichons found in German speaking lands in the 18th
   century in a number of significant respects. Noteably:

   1. Length of neck - mandoras in original state have room for 9 tied
   frets with a tenth also on the neck; Italian lutes have only room for 7
   or 8 tied frets. This seems to me to be the most evident and obvious
   difference.

   2. String lengths of these 18th century Italian instruments is
   generally short ie less than 60cm. That of mandoras (in original state)
   ranges between 66 - 76cm (large continuo gallichons in B or A are, of
   course even larger - up to high 90s).

   3. Position of bridge on body - mandoras have bridges in the same sort
   of position on the body as contemporary Dm lutes, whereas these Italian
   instruments have bridges significantly higher up the body.

   4. The rose of extant 18thc Italian instruments is an insert often
   surrounded by purling or MoP inlay - mandora roses are carved in the
   belly like Dm lutes.

   5. I've written about these (and other) differences before (also see
   archives) and have also speculated they continued to be tuned in the
   old way (ie intervals like a renaissance lute) since this is how Dalla
   Casa tuned his mid 18thC small 10 course archlute. Note that the short
   string length easily allows the G (or even A) tuning. Tyler suggested
   the Italian instruments were tuned like the late 18th century mandora
   (in E - identical to the 'new' 6 course/string guitar) but there's even
   less evidence to support this view - and certainly none was presented.
   Incidentally, a good extant example of the new made Italian instruments
   is the Radice of 1775.

   All told, a fascinating area and one in which there is much scope for
   organological research. Indeed, I'm currently developing a paper on
   the development of the mandora/gallichon (ie further to my earlier
   papers on the instruments) which will also include a look at the 18th
   century Italian lute. Much of the latter study is based on extant
   instruments and on iconography of the period and I'd be very grateful
   if anyone can draw my attention to Italian paintings from the 18th
   century (especially mid to late) showing a lute being played.

   Regarding Ms Hunt not having her mouth open, Peter Holman was the first
   draw my attention to this feature in many portraits of the period:
   sugar had  become widely available in large quantities and one
   consequence of this was terrible teeth (ot lack of them!) - so people
   generally preffered to be painted with their mouths
   closed.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 28/8/12, Mathias Roesel  wrote:

 From: Mathias Roesel 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs
 To: "'Baroque lute Dmth'" 
 Date: Tuesday, 28 August, 2012, 15:33

   Dear Martyn,
   Thank you for all the information, that concerning the Hasse tablatures
   in
   particular. As for the 18th century 8c lutes, I wonder what prevents
   you
   from labelling these instruments types of calichone / mandora. Is there
   any
   reason for doubts?
   As for Arabella Hunt, thanks for the hint to her portrait by Kneller. I
   may
   be picky, but IMO she is not shown singing, but merely playing. You
   might in
   this case quote John Hawkins from his General History of the Science
   and
   Practive of Music, that Arabella Hunt sang to her lute the Scottish
   folk
   song Cold and Raw, as queen Mary II had requested her. That she was
   singing
   to her lute, is a detail, though, that IMO is intended to underline the
   inappropriate vulgarity of the act that left Henry Purcell, her actual
   accompanist, unemployed, as Hawkins remarks, prompting Purcell to
   compose
   the air May Her Bright Example Chase Vice, which has the tune in the
   bass,
   for the queen's next birthday.
   Concerning the execution of thorough bass on the lute, my favourite
   quote is
   by Heinrich Albert who said, one should not do it as though one were
   hacking
   cabbage (i. e. full chords all the time) but according to the
   possibilities
   of the instrument, frequently repeating fading notes so that now the
   upper
   voice, then the middle, then the lower voices be stirred and perform
   their
   office. (Vol. 2, 1640, Point no. 5)
   Mathias
   >Dear Matthias,
   >
   >I agree with much of what you say.
   >
   >However regarding the observation that ' One may reasonably argue
   >whether this is an accompaniment or an instrumental arrangement as
   >there is no extra voice part. Instead, the lyrics are written
   beneath
   >the tablature which includes the voice part'   I incline to the
   view
   >that because the words are shown below the tablature then this
   was,
   >indeed, more likely to be expected to be sung (and as a practical
   help
   >for unaccomplishe

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Matthias,

   I agree with much of what you say.

   However regarding the observation that ' One may reasonably argue
   whether this is an accompaniment or an instrumental arrangement as
   there is no extra voice part. Instead, the lyrics are written beneath
   the tablature which includes the voice part'   I incline to the view
   that because the words are shown below the tablature then this was,
   indeed, more likely to be expected to be sung (and as a practical help
   for unaccomplished singers).

   And regarding the observation that  ' that discussions have been going
   on whether these tablatures are intended for Baron's otherwise
   unassigned German theorbo in D-minor-tuning with its first course in D,
   lacking the F-chanterelle.' I have my copy of the pieces to hand
   and the first course (Dm tuning) is not only frequently employed in the
   tablature realisations but melodic passages freely move between the
   upper courses - including the first. Good examples in bars 12 and 17 of
   'Appena Amor...' and other pieces.  I also recall that whilst being
   labelled 'basso continuo' parts the intabulations preserve some of the
   string writing especially when the voice is silent (like the Beyer in
   places).

   I should have stressed that my observation about the use of 7 and 8
   course lutes to accompany the voice in the 18th century (as evidenced
   by paintings and extant 18th century Italian instruments) referred only
   to Italian practice.

   In England too during the late 17th/early 18th centuries there's some
   evidence that singers might accompany themselves on the 11 course lute
   rather than the theorbo: the best example is is the celebrated singer
   Arabella Hunt (1662-1705) who is depicted singing to her own
   accompaniment on the lute.
   [1]http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj%610

   As you say, in France after 1646 there were no more printed lute
   tablature accompaniments. It is interesting tho' that the practice of
   intabulation continued even on the theorbo and guitar. The celebrated
   song writer Michel Lambert tells us that he originally intabulated
   his song accompaniments on the theorbo (one with probably just the
   first course an octave down) - tho' sadly only the printed versions
   with staff notated figured bass seem to be extant. The guitar song
   tablatures accompaniments of Corbetta are, however, extant and very
   fine they are too - and working well in performance.

   How much elaboration contemporary players would have added to a simple
   realisation is hard to say - but John Wilson's written out realisation
   of some songs for small theorbo (NB not Dm lute) are reasonably
   elaborate  However he was a celebrated musician and perhaps most
   players would have been content with a simpler realisation.

   Finally, tho' not the Dm lute, there are quite a few extant
   intabulations of song accompaniments from the 18th century for
   mandora/gallichon - including such mind blowing scenarios as Mozart's
   Queen of the night aria!

   Martyn
   .
   --- On Tue, 28/8/12, Mathias Roesel  wrote:

 From: Mathias Roesel 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs
 To: "'baroque-lute mailing-list'" 
 Date: Tuesday, 28 August, 2012, 12:10

   >There are indeed a few sources for songs accompanied by lute: one
   such
   >which is readily vailable (tho' 18th century) is Beyer's 1760
   setting
   >of some Gellert odes. See this:
   >
   >
   [1][2]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c2/IMSLP204541-PMLP34
   5466-Gel
   lert.pdf
   One may reasonably argue whether this is an accompaniment or an
   instrumental
   arrangement as there is no extra voice part. Instead, the lyrics are
   written
   beneath the tablature which includes the voice part. That is also the
   case
   with the songs in the Franconian collections (edited and published by
   Joachim Domning: Augsburg, Staats- und Stadtbibliothek, Tonkunst 2DEG
   HS Fasz.
   III and Germanisches National-Museum Nuernberg, Ms 25461). See also
   [3]http://www.liederlexikon.de/lieder/sollen_nun_die_gruenen_jahre/edit
   ionc
   >And there's also things like the intabulated accompaniment for
   lute to
   >a few Hasse songs in Leipzig III.11.46 'Opern Arien auf die Laute
   >versezet Ao.1755 di R'.
   That is a different cup of tea, as this is thorough bass intabulated,
   indeed. I seem to remember (may be misremembering), though, that
   discussions
   have been going on whether these tablatures are intended for Baron's
   otherwise unassigned German theorbo in D-minor-tuning with its first
   course
   in D, lacking the F-chanterelle.
   > Look at the engraved frontespiece of Playford's
   >First book of Select Ayres and Dialogues (specified for a
   >'theorboe-lute' )  showing such an instrument being played. Songs
   by
   >Lanier, Lawes, et al.  I'll send you a scan from my own copy.
   Heinrich Albert

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kleinknecht vid

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Excellent - as you say a much neglected work and one requiring much
   panache and affet which you provide.

   I wonder if it's an arrangement of a keyboard sonata? I'm not aware of
   any relevant research - are you?

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 28/8/12, Christopher Wilke  wrote:

 From: Christopher Wilke 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Kleinknecht vid
 To: "baroque-lute mailing-list" 
 Date: Tuesday, 28 August, 2012, 12:37

  Hi all,
  I've posted the 1st movement of Jakob Friedrich Kleinknecht's
  B-flat major Sonata on Youtube for your enjoyment.
  [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G3AOfCCkAU
  Christopher Wilke
  Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
  www.christopherwilke.com
__
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   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G3AOfCCkAU
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Bill,

   There are indeed a few sources for songs accompanied by lute: one such
   which is readily vailable (tho' 18th century) is Beyer's 1760 setting
   of some Gellert odes. See this:

   [1]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c2/IMSLP204541-PMLP34546
   6-Gellert.pdf

   And there's also things like the intabulated accompaniment for lute to
   a few Hasse songs in Leipzig III.11.46 'Opern Arien auf die Laute
   versezet Ao.1755 di R'. I've an old microfilm somewhere but believe
   Tree has published a facsimile edition recently.

   However I think in the 17th century the generally simple bass lines of
   many songs and relatively straightforward harmonies would have meant
   most reasonably accomplished players were able to play lute continuo
   from staff notation. Look at the engraved frontespiece of Playford's
   First book of Select Ayres and Dialogues (specified for a
   'theorboe-lute' )  showing such an instrument being played. Songs by
   Lanier, Lawes, et al.  I'll send you a scan from my own copy.

   Along the same lines, it's interesting to see the number of late
   17th/18th century paintings showing singers accompanied by a small 7 or
   8 course lute (18th century made examples extant). Other than Dalla
   Casa's Ms I'm not aware of any Italian lute intabulations from the mid
   18th century so I presume these lutenists are playing from staff
   notation too.

   rgds

   Martyn



   --- On Mon, 27/8/12, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 'Baroque lute' songs
 To: "baroque-lute mailing-list" 
 Date: Monday, 27 August, 2012, 21:03

  I notice that there are quite a number of 17th century paintings of
  lutenists accompanying singers using an 11c or 12c lute.  Does
   anyone
  know if there is a published repertoire of pieces like this, or were
  the lutenists playing a continuo without using a written-out
  accompaniment?
  I hope that makes sense.
  Bill Samson
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   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. 
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c2/IMSLP204541-PMLP345466-Gellert.pdf
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Fasch concerto

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Fasch is a fairly well known composer who wrote works in a variety of
   forms and instrumentation.

   His concerto  in Dm  is in the large Dresden collection (Mus.Ms.
   2423.v.1) scored in four parts with lute:  two violins, viola, Lluto,
   cembalo/basso (unfigured).  Note that the lute is written in the C1
   clef but generally with no bass - it can be supposed that the
   cembalo/basso line was used with the staff liuto line to create a
   complete working lute part.

   Fasch also wrote parts for other plucked instruments in his works:
   including a concerto requiring two gallichons. And, indeed, the Dresden
   'liuto' concerto discussed here also fits pretty well on the D
   mandora/gallichon - and I've performed it thus...

   Other concertos with four part strings of note from this period include
   those by Krebs and Kohaut.

   Hopkinson Smith made a decent CD including some of these concertos
   (with the Fasch) in 1999: Auvidis Astree France E 8641.   I believe
   Ruggero Chiesa made a modern staff transcription of the work in the
   1970s.

   MH
   --- On Thu, 16/8/12, Roland Hayes  wrote:

 From: Roland Hayes 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Fasch concerto
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Thursday, 16 August, 2012, 16:58

  On the radio I heard a very nice performance of a lute concerto by
  Fasch (?) described as a Dresden composer.  Is this concerto in
   print
  anywhere, or facsimile? No mention of the lutenist, BTW.  r
  --
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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Visee in Res. 1106

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Visee in Res. 1106
 To: "Richard Stone" 
 Date: Saturday, 23 June, 2012, 14:52

   Dear Richard,

   I have a good(ish) photocopy of Res 1106 (only the faint piece on f.81
   is hard to decipher) but not a pdf version.  If there is any particular
   piece in which you're interested I'd be happy to scan the odd page or
   two and email as an attachment.

   Incidentally, only about half the pieces have the composer marked as de
   Visee.

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 22/6/12, Richard Stone  wrote:

 From: Richard Stone 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Visee in Res. 1106
 To: "Baroque lute list" 
 Date: Friday, 22 June, 2012, 18:25

   Dear Baroque Lute list,
   Does anybody have a legible PDF copy of the Visee collection in Res.
   1106? I have a monochrome PDF that's been in circulation, but it's only
   partially legible, probably based on an old microform.
   Since I get the weekly digests of this subscription, please feel free
   to reply to me directly for a quicker response. rstone12 at
   johnshopkins dot edu.
   Many thanks.
   Richard Stone
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Arpeggio question

[Martyn Hodgson]

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Chris,
 
A couple of years (or so) ago I asked about the chords in a Preludio for 
Tiorbas In NB 17706. There are small numbers (either a 2 or a 3) below some 
chordal passages (containing various numbers of notes) that are clearly not 
marks to indicate a bass course - tho' some figures are (ie a 7 and a 5). I 
speculated it may refer to how to break up each chord but, to be frank I 
couldn't make much sense of it. Neither did I receive any replies! Here is a 
scan of the relevant page.
 
Martyn

--- On Thu, 17/5/12, Christopher Wilke  wrote:


From: Christopher Wilke 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Arpeggio question
To: "Bernd Haegemann" 
Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" , "baroque Lutelist" 

Date: Thursday, 17 May, 2012, 12:45


    Bernd,
       This is a tricky thing. Usually, I try to find a pattern written
   out in some other lute solo. Karl-Ernst Schroeder did a very good
   survey of the ones found in Weiss sonatas. (I don't remember the source
   off the top of my head.) I find a strict pattern to be uninteresting,
   however, and so I occasionally vary the base pattern for effect when
   the progression is interesting or when there's an especially dissonant
   chord. I usually keep a consistent number of notes in each chord. Who
   knows if this is really correct? Many times the arpeggio sections are
   unmeasured and the very fact that a pattern was not specified on the
   page may imply that a more rhapsodic and personally idiosyncratic
   approach was intended.
        For progressions in which the number of notes varies, you could
   always make a patchwork of patterns utilizing each grouping from
   various existing solos, such as Schroeder compiled. Or you could follow
   your own muse and see where it takes you.
   Chris
   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
   --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bernd Haegemann  wrote:

     From: Bernd Haegemann 
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Arpeggio question
     To:
     Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" , "baroque
     Lutelist" 
     Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 5:17 AM

   Dear all,
   sometimes we find in baroque lute music chains of chords, notated
   evenly as it seems and with the mark "arpeggio" or "arp".
   Now, if the chain looked like this (with n being the number of notes in
   the chord)
   4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
   or
   5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
   one would think of some arpeggio scheme to use it in such a passage.
   But what the number of notes in the chords looks like this
   5 5 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 2 3 3 4 6 6 5 4 4 4
   or so?
   What would you do?
   Thank you for your hints!
   best regards
   Bernd
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

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--1386533404-137319751-1337257701=:5336
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris,
 
A couple of years (or so) ago I asked about the chords in a Preludio for 
Tiorbas In NB 17706. There are small numbers (either a 2 or a 3) below some 
chordal passages (containing various numbers of notes) that are clearly not 
marks to indicate a bass course - tho' some figures are (ie a 7 and a 5). I 
speculated it may refer to how to break up each chord but, to be frank I 
couldn't make much sense of it. Neither did I receive any replies! Here is a 
scan of the relevant page.
 
Martyn--- On Thu, 17/5/12, Christopher Wilke 
 wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Arpeggio 
questionTo: "Bernd Haegemann" Cc: 
"lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" , "baroque Lutelist" 
Date: Thursday, 17 May, 2012, 
12:45
    Bernd,    
   This is a tricky thing. Usually, I try to find a pattern 
written   out in some other lute solo. Karl-Ernst Schroeder 
did a very good   survey of the ones found in Weiss sonatas. 
(I don't remember the source   off the top of my head.) I 
find a strict pattern to be uninteresting,   however, and so 
I occasionally vary the base pattern for effect when   the 
progression is interesting or when there's an especially 
dissonant   chord. I usually keep a consistent number of 
notes in each chord. Who   knows if this is really correct? 
Many times the arpeggio sections are   unmeasured and the 
very fact that a pattern was not specified on the   page may 
imply that a more rhapsodic and personally
 idiosyncratic   approach was intended.    
    For progressions in which the number of notes varies, you 
could   always make a patchwork of patterns utilizing each 
grouping from   various existing solos, such as Schroeder 
compiled. Or you could follow   your own muse and see where 
it takes you.   Chris   Dr. Christopher 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mouton's "campanella" technique

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Von Radolt also employs this technique in his  'Der Aller Treueeste
   Freindin...' (Vienna 1701) - see the paper with relevant translation
   and commentary by Bill Samson and me in FoMRHI Quarterly some years ago
   (digital copies available - search FoMRHI). And I've recall at least
   one other example in a French MS source but can't offhand remember
   which.

   But this effect is not really the same as guitar campenella play in
   which different courses are used to pluck a scalic passage.

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 11/4/12, Mathias Roesel  wrote:

 From: Mathias Roesel 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mouton's "campanella" technique
 To: "Baroque Lute Net" 
 Date: Wednesday, 11 April, 2012, 23:12

  > Here Mouton uses his unique(?) technique of playing first only
the low octave of a bass course and only after some higher strings
the
upper octave of the same bass course. So it is actually the
"campanella" technique better known in baroque guitar music.
...
Does anyone know, whether any other baroque lutenist used this
technique?
There is an allemande by Graf Pergen in Giesbert's method where
   this
technique is used also.
Mathias
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: JF Daube

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Re works by J F Daube, as well as the lute works, there is at least one
   piece by him which includes mandora: a sonata for violin and mandora
   from his  'Musical Dilettante: A Treatise on Composition (Vienna, 1773
   )'.  This work was aimed at amateurs and especially aristocratic
   dilettantes wishing to compose instrumental chamber music - it is
   overshadowed by his earlier better known treatise on Thorough-Bass in
   Three Chords(!) of 1756.   I don't have a copy of the original book but
   have a modern copy of the relevant piece in staff notation in Dr
   Klima's hand. There is a modern edition of Musical Dilettante (in
   English) by CUL (2006).

   regards

   Martyn




   --- On Mon, 2/4/12, Bernhard Fischer  wrote:

 From: Bernhard Fischer 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] JF Daube
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 2 April, 2012, 8:58

  Dear lute friends,
  Over the weekend I recorded three pieces in d-minor, Fantasia,
   Andante
  and Tempo di Menut, from the composer Johann Friedrich Daube.
  [1][1]http://vimeo.com/39585657 or [2][2]http://youtu.be/9tfs2wwIcr8
   Johann Friedrich Daube was born in 1733 in Hessen (Germany) and
   died
  in 1797 in Vienna (Austria). He played the theorbe at the Royal
   Court
  of Friedrich II ("Friedrich the Great") in Berlin where he also met
  Carl Phillipp Emanuel Bach. Via Stuttgart and Augsburg he moved to
  Vienna. His music combines elements of late baroque and early
   classic.
  I still need to find his traces in Vienna.
  Has anyone more and specific information about Daube?
  Kind regards from Vienna, Bernhard
  --
   References
  1. [3]http://vimeo.com/39585657
  2. [4]http://youtu.be/9tfs2wwIcr8
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. http://vimeo.com/39585657
   2. http://youtu.be/9tfs2wwIcr8
   3. http://vimeo.com/39585657
   4. http://youtu.be/9tfs2wwIcr8
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,

   Thank you for this.  In essence all I'm suggesting is that we should
   look at the evidence of what size and sort (eg barring) of instrument
   was used for a particular repertoire and then see what sounds result,
   rather than starting from the sort of sound we personally like and then
   choosing the instrument which makes this sound.  Clearly the first has
   the possibility of getting somewhere near what the original composers
   might have expected and their audiences heard; but the second merely
   reflects our own prejudices/pre-delictions/wishful-thinking of the sort
   of sound we, as individuals, would like to hear.  The matter is
   particularly pointed if the specification of the instrument we come up
   with for performing a particular repertoire was unknown to players at
   the time. This doesn't just apply to Anthony Bailes of course but to
   any player with pretensions to perform works in a manner reasonably
   close to what the original composer might have expected.

   Regarding putting 'sustain' as the feature most to be sought in this
   repertoire is, of course, simply a prejudice (prejudgement) - it might
   be any feature (eg softness, loudness, ability to articulate, lack of
   sustain etc).  As said, we ought to try and secure an instrument as
   close as possible to what the actual historic evidence indicates and
   base our experiments on this.  I also suggest, if we wish to be
   rigorous about this search, we should eschew other anachronistic
   techniques - such as plucking away from the bridge and up to the rose
   which has at least as big an influence on the tone produced as almost
   any other factor. Your links (email 16 March) to pictures comparing
   Mouton and a modern 11 course player is particular telling: not only in
   the right hand position and its plucking posture but also how the
   instrument is held - low down cradled in the lap, not high up resting
   on the right thigh as Mouton (and other contemporary depictions).

   Finally, I'm all for experiment if it is presented as such: it's when
   this might be seem to be an accurate reflection of what the Old Ones
   actually did that I worry.

   regards

   Martyn


   --- On Tue, 20/3/12, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was
 Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 12:52

   Dear Martyn
   I must appologize for not having seen your message; I actually
   wrote a subpart to my mail to Ed (on sustain, clarity and with modern
   hard thin tables) which was a note to you, and saying something not
   completely unlike what you say here; but then I removed it, as it was
   very tentative, a little confused, and not really addressed to Ed
   (although the subject still relates to sustain in French baroque lute
   music). I then had to respond to another mail, and I forgot to make the
   note to you. I will just add it here, almost as I initially wrote it:
   I should perhaps add (in Ed's message) a few words as second thoughts,
   here , more as questions to Martyn, relating to Anthony Baile's
   experimenting with sustain for French Baroque lute music. I don't think
   it has always been considered that the French lutenists research for
   old Bologna lutes was necessarilly a search for lutes having BOTH
   sustain and clarity; I remember several lute makers advising me that
   the best quality for a French lute would be speed and clarity (I
   believe they were simply considering sound differences between rounder
   multi-ribbed Paduan  shape and the Bologna almond shape on modern
   lutes, rather than the age question). The idea possibly being that the
   speed and clarity of the shallower Bologna shape might help counteract
   the  increased sympathetic resonances due to the new tunings (thus
   perhaps reducing overhang, a "bad" form of sustain).
   However, an alternative and opposing hypothesis (possibly adopted by
   AB) might be that the greater age of the Bologna lutes, as well as the
   reduction in the ammount of paper and glue (Burwell)  giving less
   impedance, would all combine to better allow the French musicians to
   profit from the sympathetic resonances due to their tunings increasing
   sustain. (I am not forgetting that a number of French lutenists
   (Pinel?) may have actually preferred the rounder sound of Paduan lutes)
   %
   Better sustain with clarity, I believe would also have been achieved if
   they were using low impedance high tension stringing, which
   theoreticians of this school also suppose French musicians had done
   (supposition disputed by tenants of the low tension theory).
   Further more, Jacob Heringman told me that, in his opinion, long string
   lengths also permit greater express

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Stringing in relation to lute size [WasRe: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Bill,

   But on the smaller instrument you'll employ lower tensions - not the
   same tension as on a larger.

   To my knowledge, Dowland in the 'Varietie' gives the clearest advice
   about this  ('Of setting the right sizes of Strings upon the Lute').
   .. Wherefore first have consideration to the greatnesse or
   smallnesse of the Instrument, and thereby proportionably size your
   strings, appointing the bigger Lute the greater strings, and for the
   lesser Lute the smaller strings
   Mace says the same (page 65 speaking of the Stringing of the Lute) he
   writes 'And as to the Size, if it be a Large Lute, it must have the
   Rounder Strings; and a Small Lute, the Smaller'

   This is also, of course,  sensible advice since, if we want the same
   'feel' under the fingers (see earlier communications on this), we'll
   need to have lower tensions on smaller lutes and vice versa.

   Regarding 'feeI', I recall somebody amusingly (see archives) mentioning
   the feel of playing 'with iron bars' if we tried to pluck a small
   descant lute strung with, say, the strings used on a large bass lute
   and brought being both up to their relative pitches

   rgds

   M
   --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" ,
 "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 10:03

  Hi again Martyn,
  Yes indeed - The smaller lute will need thinner strings than the
   larger
  one but if you go by the highest string almost breaking, that will
   lead
  to a lower tension as the thickness of the chanterelle doesn't seem
   to
  be related to the pitch at which it breaks.
  What I'm getting around to asking is, how do the tensions of the
   basses
  in a small lute compare to the equivalents in a large lute?  If the
  small lute has half the string length of the large, and is tuned an
  octave higher, the same tension will require the same string
  thickness.  So if you use thinner basses the tension would need to
   be
  somewhat less.
  Most string calculators I've come across ask the user for the
   tension
  they want to use, but don't give much in the way of guidance to what
   a
  reasonable tension should be.  Do you know if this has been
  investigated and written up anywhere?  All the advice I can find is
   for
  medium-sized lutes and suggests tensions around 3kg per string.
   That
  would presumably be less for a much smaller lute.
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: "[2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
  William Samson <[4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
  Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 9:33
  Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
  Dear Bill,
  Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest
  string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute
   will
  be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of
   76
  and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than
   a
  larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be
  much the same.
  Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison
  since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as
   you
  point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument.
  rgds
  Martyn --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson
   <[5]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
  wrote:
    From: William Samson <[6]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22
  Hi Martyn,
  I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here.
  The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string
   in
  comparison with its length.  The thicker the string, other things
   being
  equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher
  harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the
  fundamental.  This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass
  register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses.  It's
  possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and
   so
  on) and reduce this effect.
  The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being
  equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain.
  This doesn't matter so much for a long

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Bill,

   Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest
   string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute will
   be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of 76
   and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than a
   larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be
   much the same.

   Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison
   since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as you
   point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument.

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" ,
 "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22

   Hi Martyn,

   I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here.

   The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in
   comparison with its length.  The thicker the string, other things being
   equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher
   harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the
   fundamental.  This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass
   register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses.  It's
   possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so
   on) and reduce this effect.

   The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being
   equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain.

   This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one
   of the same thickness.

   One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the
   basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions.  There's only
   so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound
   like rubber bands being pinged.  This can be overcome by increasing the
   density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string
   can be tuned at a higher tension.

   Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a
   joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings,
   where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors.

   In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a
   10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it.

   Thoughts?

   Bill
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Anthony Hind 
   Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 Dear Anthony,
 There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as
 well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching
 will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up
 as close as possible to breaking stress).
 Martyn
 --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind <[1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
   From: Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
   To: "Edward Martin" <[3]e...@gamutstrings.com>
   Cc: "[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22
 Dear Ed and All
 Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by
 that
 Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree
   LPs
 in
 the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had
   the
 chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob
 Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes.
 %
 I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be
 loth
 to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but
   perhaps
 the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones?
 When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner
   does
 go
 someway to gearing the peg turn.
 I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually
   it
 works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to
 make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps
   above
 and
 then below the desired tuning point,
 with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it
   does
 not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs.
 How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string
 maker!
 %
 Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates
   to
 the
 ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I
 understand
 tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some
   of
 the

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,

   I agree with most of what you write below. There is, however, one
   elephant-in-the-room issue which, I think, goes to the heart of the
   matter, viz: how much our individual pre-judgements/prejudices may
   influence our choices in spite of the evidence.

   A particular, and well documented, issue is that of using historically
   unlikely instruments to satisfy our own prejudices (or wishful
   thinking) of what the music ought  to sound like.  This exerts a great
   (often sub-conscious?) influence over the instrument on which we choose
   to play a particular repertoire - and can lead to using a type of
   instrument for a certain repertoire (say mid/late 17th century French
   lute music) which was unknown to players at the time.

   Go back a modern generation or perhaps two and early keyboard music was
   generally played on the piano and, on those rare occasions when a
   pianist felt obliged to justify themselves, the reason given was
   generally either simply 'I prefer it this way because there's more
   sustain/volume/response/ etc'  and/or  'JS Bach (or AN Other) would
   have chosen a modern instrument if they had been around at the time'.
   Both are pure assertion of course with no relation to the actual
   evidence of the type of instrument, and thus the sound, the original
   composers had in mind and what their contemporary auditors might
   reasonably expect to hear.

   Thus, on the lute, some modern tastes may seek a low pitched sound as
   being somehow more suited to the music (eg 'capable of sustain'
   etc)  even where this flies in the face of historical evidence. Surely
   we should look at the evidence first and then use the instrument which
   best fits such an analysis. How else are we to properly serve the
   composer's intentions?

   regards

   Martyn


   --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 15:07

  Dear All
  Anthony Bailes LP recording of  'Pieces de luth'; EMI
   REFLEXE;
  IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music.
  After that I was hooked.
  I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this,
   his
  most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular
   "Old
  Gautiers Nightinghall") do seem to have become a little more
  reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent excellent
  string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson,
   Lyons
  Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (although, I imagine that
   with
  this 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well). AB seems to
   be
  one of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut
   stringing.
  %
  Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to
   historic
  research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008, he
  said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French, that
  Trichet tells us "French lute players were looking for instruments
  which were very resonant, and capable of sustain"; and he goes on to
  tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, "The last, and most
  important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain
  coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is
  particularly important as it can give the impression that a note
   sounds
  on longer than it actually does."
  In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
  interpretation of this music that he appears willing to sacrifice
   ideal
  string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic
   Wenger
  lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords.
  %
  Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming  two
   almost
  contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: "this has exactly
   what I
  want. It has that clarity  but also sustain, which is amazing".
  %
  It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking to
   study
  with his recent recordings, at the expense of any characteristic
  specifically associated with more usual string lengths of around 68
   cm
  (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have
   preferred
  AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or whatever),
  but no doubt he had to settle for the Wenger, or possibly chose it
   to
  isolate what this could bring, in spite of string length and barring
  differences.
  %
  The question then (implied by Martyn) is what AB may have gained or
  lost in choosing a lute which might seem more suitable for late
   German
  Baroque.
  AB mentions the elegeance and economy in the music, and it is
   possible
  that this also extended to the playing

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,

   There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as
   well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching
   will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up
   as close as possible to breaking stress).

   Martyn
   --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "Edward Martin" 
 Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22

  Dear Ed and All
  Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by
   that
  Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs
   in
  the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the
  chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob
  Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes.
  %
   I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be
   loth
  to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps
  the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones?
  When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does
   go
  someway to gearing the peg turn.
  I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it
  works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to
  make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above
   and
  then below the desired tuning point,
  with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does
  not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs.
  How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string
   maker!
  %
  Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to
   the
  ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I
   understand
  tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of
   the
  sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your
  stringing?
  Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising
   if
  pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you
   manage
  a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite
   an
  achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses!
  %
  I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to
   compare
  with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old
   links
  I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on
   the
  Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the
  site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that
   could
  be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts,
   which
  is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare.
  %
  You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your
  octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy?
  regards
  Anthony
__
  De : Edward Martin <[1]e...@gamutstrings.com>
  A : Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>;
  "[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08
  Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
  Dear Anthony and all,
  I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe.  A
  great, old recording.
  Your statement that "(although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute
   pure
  gut basses should also work well)" is in complete agreement with my
  recent experimentation.
  As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my "French"
  lute, which is now one year old.  It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei.
  Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually,
  Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10)  The 11th
   course
  still has a loaded gut  fundamental from Mimmo.  That is the only
   metal
  I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with
   the
  sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal).  In fact, I
  prefer it to loaded gut.  I just have not gotten around to trying
   the
  11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work
   just
  fine.  String makers have done a terrific job in research and
  production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course
  lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut.
   They
  do not sound "tubby" at all.
  Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will,
   using
  this stringing configuration.  In my opinion, at least when
   discussing
  French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying.
  Another factor I have just made a huge modification on the
  11-course lute.  I have jus

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Mathias,

   I agree

   Martyn
   --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Mathias Roesel  wrote:

 From: Mathias Roesel 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music
 was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "'baroque-lute mailing-list'" 
 Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 10:42

   Dear Martyn,
   Wolfgang Wolff the younger is indeed attested to have died in the late
   16th
   century (1591, to be precise), but that implies that he probably did
   not
   rebuild this lute himself, as double headed lutes became fashionable
   only
   later. One may wonder whether or not the soundboard with its unique
   barring
   (three fan bars on the treble side, slanted J-bar joined by one fan bar
   on
   the bass side) was replaced.
   It also implies that small lutes of this size were lutes of choice when
   it
   came to rebuilding. Not the only possible choice, though, admittedly.
   According to Mary Burwell's teacher, the French first accepted the
   double
   headed lute, but later rejected it. I wonder how many years passed
   between
   first and later. Pierre Gaultier (1638) clearly requires a lute whose
   9th
   course can be stopped on the fret board (although it sounds well to my
   ears
   on the 12c lute as well), but I haven't found other French music of the
   time, where that is so. It can be played comfortably on a 12c lute, and
   so
   it was e.g. by Jean Campbell (Panmure 8).
   The vocal lines, or singing quality, is much more prominent when played
   on
   this small lute with its 1st course in g', e.g. in the written out
   doubles
   with their almost continuous lines, or as well any piece that uses the
   upper
   register.
   Mathias
   > -Urspruengliche Nachricht-
   > Von: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
   > Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson
   > Gesendet: Freitag, 16. Maerz 2012 13:39
   > An: baroque-lute mailing-list; Mathias Roesel
   > Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music
   was:
   Ne
   > Anthony Bailes CD
   >
   >
   >Dear Mathias,
   >
   >Interesting. As said, I don't think any reasonably sized lute is
   >'wrong': it's more a matter of what might have been generally
   expected
   >at the particular time.
   >
   >My comments relate principally to French lute music of the
   mid/late
   >17th century (as on Anthony Bailes's CD) so other schools and
   periods
   >such as those you mention (Mace and early 17th century French
   >lutenists) may well have used the size of lute you prefer for this
   >repertoire; such as the double headed Wolf lute (late 16th
   century?
   >original) with stopped strings at 63cm.
   >
   >One other problem with using the 1722 Wenger instrument for
   earlier
   >French repertoire is that the barring in the lower part of the
   belly
   >which does not fit the models of that found on early 16th century
   lutes
   >so esteemed by the 17th century French (see Lute News).
   >
   >Martyn
   >--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Mathias Roesel
   <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
   >
   >  From: Mathias Roesel <[4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French
   music
   >  was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
   >  To: "baroque-lute mailing-list"
   <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >  Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:10
   >
   >>  Hi Bill,  This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the
   change
   >of
   >>heading).  I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a
   string
   >length
   >>of 76 or  77cm.  It may at some stage have been converted
   (from a
   >>gallichon  perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present
   >>manifestation as an 11  course instrument . Again see earlier
   >editions
   >>of Lute News for more  information/views.  The preferred
   >instruments at
   >>the time (ie converted early 16th cenury  Italian lutes)
   generally
   >had
   >>a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute  News 94, page 28
   which
   >outlines
   >>the principle sources of evidence for  the size of lutes
   preferred
   >in
   >>mid/late 17th century France).
   >I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Fuessen (63 cm)
   for
   >not only
   >Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut,
   Bouvier,
   >Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do
   like
   >it
   >very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors
   habits of
   >  

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Mathias,

   Interesting. As said, I don't think any reasonably sized lute is
   'wrong': it's more a matter of what might have been generally expected
   at the particular time.

   My comments relate principally to French lute music of the mid/late
   17th century (as on Anthony Bailes's CD) so other schools and periods
   such as those you mention (Mace and early 17th century French
   lutenists) may well have used the size of lute you prefer for this
   repertoire; such as the double headed Wolf lute (late 16th century?
   original) with stopped strings at 63cm.

   One other problem with using the 1722 Wenger instrument for earlier
   French repertoire is that the barring in the lower part of the belly
   which does not fit the models of that found on early 16th century lutes
   so esteemed by the 17th century French (see Lute News).

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Mathias Roesel  wrote:

 From: Mathias Roesel 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music
 was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "baroque-lute mailing-list" 
 Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:10

   >  Hi Bill,  This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change
   of
   >heading).  I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string
   length
   >of 76 or  77cm.  It may at some stage have been converted (from a
   >gallichon  perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present
   >manifestation as an 11  course instrument . Again see earlier
   editions
   >of Lute News for more  information/views.  The preferred
   instruments at
   >the time (ie converted early 16th cenury  Italian lutes) generally
   had
   >a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute  News 94, page 28 which
   outlines
   >the principle sources of evidence for  the size of lutes preferred
   in
   >mid/late 17th century France).
   I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Fuessen (63 cm) for
   not only
   Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut, Bouvier,
   Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do like
   it
   very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors habits of
   the
   1640ies in French-influenced England.
   Mathias
   > But bear in mind (as Lute News notes)
   >"Of course, this is not to say  that it is 'wrong' to play the
   music on
   >such a large lute and, indeed,  the French repertoire whilst being
   >challenging for interpretation  (precise phrasing, accent,
   >articulation, mannerisms and the like), is  much less demanding
   for the
   >left hand and a large instrument is clearly  quite possible:  it's
   more
   >a question of what the Old Ones themselves  might have expected".
   >Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony
   >Bailes's performance.  regards  Martyn  PS the CD of music played
   on
   >this instrument which I reported as being  out over a year ago in
   fact
   >refers to a previous CD played on the same  instrument.
   --- On
   >Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[2][1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >From: William Samson <[3][2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>Subject:
   >[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: "Martyn Hodgson"
   ><[4][3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
   "[5][4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   ><[6][5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,"Edward Martin"
   ><[7][6]e...@gamutstrings.com>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33
   Hi
   >Martyn,  Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is?
   >Bill  From: Martyn Hodgson
   <[1][8][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   >To: [2][9][8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin
   ><[3][10][9]e...@gamutstrings.com>  Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012,
   8:08
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDDear
   Edward,
   >  Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in
   Europe
   >  forover a year.Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes
   later
   >agreed (see letters in Lute  Newsfrom No 94, August
   2010
   >on), the large Wenger lute used on therecording (if indeed
   it
   >was built as a lute and not a gallichon -  theinstruments
   for
   >which Wenger was best known) is not the most  suitable(or
   >appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th
   >century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early
   16th
   >  century Italian instruments were then the most highly
   regarded.
   >  Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute
   the

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Good point Rob

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Rob MacKillop  wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music
 was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "William Samson" 
 Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:01

  Will I be shot down in flames by suggesting you don't use Spotify?
   The
  thing is a massive rip off. The musician gets almost nothing for
   being
  on it. Lady Gaga had over a million plays on it, and received just
   over
  100 dollars. Imagine what Anthony Bailes would receive... Many
  musicians are boycotting the site, including Bob Dylan, who doesn't
  need the money, but wants to support other artists.
  We all want something for free, but sometimes the cost is too high.
  I'm not talking about the income musicians get from CDs, which is
   very
  small in our lute world, but the record companies will not bother
  making any more lute recordings is even we as lute players do not
  support them.
  Sorry, Bill. I know you bought the disc, so full marks there. But I
  want others to think about using Spotify, what it entails. Sadly,
   I'm
  also on Spotify - I had no control over it, and didn't even know I
   was
  there until someone asked for a free score of pieces he was
   listening
  to me play on Spotify...and got annoyed at me when I said no.
  Rob MacKillop
  On 16 March 2012 11:31, William Samson
   <[1][1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
  wrote:
  Hi Martyn,
  Go to [1][2]www.spotify.com where you can download the player
   onto
your
  computer.
  There are then two options - you can go for the free version
   which
has
  occasional ads between tracks, or the paid version that is
ad-free.
  Being a Scotsman I put up with the ads!
      Best wishes,
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[3][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: William Samson <[4][3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
  Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 11:17
  Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French
music
  was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
  Thanks Bill - how does one access spotify?
  rgds
  M--- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson
   <[5][4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
From: William Samson <[6][5]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French
    music
was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 10:38
  I just found that this album can be listened to on Spotify if
   you
have
  access to it.  It's free to use in the UK, but I can't say how
things
  are elsewhere.
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[8][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: "[9][8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[10][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
  Edward Martin <[11][10]e...@gamutstrings.com>; William Samson
  <[12][11]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
  Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 9:04
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music
was:
  Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Hi Bill,  This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the
   change
of
  heading).  I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string
length
  of 76 or  77cm.  It may at some stage have been converted (from
   a
  gallichon  perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present
  manifestation as an 11  course instrument . Again see earlier
editions
  of Lute News for more  information/views.  The preferred
instruments at
  the time (ie converted early 16th cenury  Italian lutes)
   generally
had
  a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute  News 94, page 28 which
outlines
  the principle sources of evidence for  the size of lutes
   preferred
in
  mid/late 17th century France).  But bear in mind (as Lute News
notes)
  "Of course, this is not to say  that it is 'wrong' to play the
music on
  such a large lute and, indeed,  the French repertoire whilst
   being
  challenging for interpretation  (precise phrasing, accent,
  articulation, mannerisms and the like), is  much less demanding
for the
  left hand and a large instrument is clearly  quite possible:
   it's
more
  a question of what the Old Ones themselves  might have
   expected".
  Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the oth

[BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Hi Bill,

   This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of heading).

   I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length of 76 or
   77cm.   It may at some stage have been converted (from a gallichon
   perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present manifestation as an 11
   course instrument . Again see earlier editions of Lute News for more
   information/views.

   The preferred instruments at the time (ie converted early 16th cenury
   Italian lutes) generally had a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute
   News 94, page 28 which outlines the principle sources of evidence for
   the size of lutes preferred in mid/late 17th century France).

   But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) "Of course, this is not to say
   that it is 'wrong' to play the music on such a large lute and, indeed,
   the French repertoire whilst being challenging for interpretation
   (precise phrasing, accent, articulation, mannerisms and the like), is
   much less demanding for the left hand and a large instrument is clearly
   quite possible:  it's more a question of what the Old Ones themselves
   might have expected".

   Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony
   Bailes's performance.

   regards

   Martyn


   PS the CD of music played on this instrument which I reported as being
   out over a year ago in fact refers to a previous CD played on the same
   instrument.
   --- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" ,
 "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ,
 "Edward Martin" 
 Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33

  Hi Martyn,
  Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is?
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin
   <[3]e...@gamutstrings.com>
  Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 8:08
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Edward,
Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe
   for
over a year.
Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes later agreed (see letters in Lute
  News
from No 94, August 2010 on), the large Wenger lute used on the
recording (if indeed it was built as a lute and not a gallichon -
   the
instruments for which Wenger was best known) is not the most
   suitable
(or appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th
century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early
   16th
century Italian instruments were then the most highly regarded.
Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute the
   size
of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
performance of 17th century French lute music,..'
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Edward Martin <[1][4]e...@gamutstrings.com>
   wrote:
  From: Edward Martin <[2][5]e...@gamutstrings.com>
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD
  To: [3][6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 2:50
Dear Ones,
For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French
   baroque
lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee
label.  it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains
   works
of Mouton and Gallot.  He recorded this program on his authentic
   lute
by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722.  The catalog number is
RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets.
This is an announcement, not a review.  The instrument is a large
one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence
making it in a b-minor tuning.  Beautiful sound and playing,
   highly
recommended.
ed
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [1][4][7]e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
[2][5][8]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
[3][6][9]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[4][7][10]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
To get on or off this list see list information at
[5][8][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
  References
1.
  [9][12]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%AD@gamutstrin
   gs.com
2. [10][13]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
3. [11][14]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
4. [12][15]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
5. [13][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. mailto:[17]e...@gamutstrings.

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Edward,

   Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe for
   over a year.

   Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes later agreed (see letters in Lute News
   from No 94, August 2010 on), the large Wenger lute used on the
   recording (if indeed it was built as a lute and not a gallichon - the
   instruments for which Wenger was best known) is not the most suitable
   (or appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th
   century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early 16th
   century Italian instruments were then the most highly regarded.

   Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute the size
   of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   performance of 17th century French lute music,..'

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Edward Martin  wrote:

 From: Edward Martin 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 2:50

   Dear Ones,
   For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French baroque
   lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee
   label.  it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains works
   of Mouton and Gallot.  He recorded this program on his authentic lute
   by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722.  The catalog number is
   RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets.
   This is an announcement, not a review.  The instrument is a large
   one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence
   making it in a b-minor tuning.  Beautiful sound and playing, highly
   recommended.
   ed
   Edward Martin
   2817 East 2nd Street
   Duluth, Minnesota  55812
   e-mail:  [1]e...@gamutstrings.com
   voice:  (218) 728-1202
   [2]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
   [3]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
   [4]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
   2. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
   3. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
   4. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Incorrect again Howard - he does not say those who use tastini are
   'prominent' players as you do (from where do you get this),  but that
   they are foolish.

   MH
   --- On Fri, 6/1/12, howard posner  wrote:

 From: howard posner 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor
 tuned lute...
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Friday, 6 January, 2012, 20:48

   On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
   > Although Denis does not recommend openly a sort of equal temperament,
   he acknowledges the fact that fretted instruments are not naturally and
   technically apt for unequal temperaments. I think his "ivory frets",
   which could be adjusted according to the required temperament, are only
   another experimental endeavour comparable with Galilei's suggested use
   of "tastini"
   Galilei doesn't suggest tastini.  He says other prominent players use
   them, but he thinks it's a bad idea.
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Read Lindley's book on lute temperaments if you don't believe me.

   MH
   --- On Fri, 6/1/12, howard posner  wrote:

 From: howard posner 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor
 tuned lute...
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Friday, 6 January, 2012, 16:38

   On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >   Equal temperament was used on lutes from the 16th century onwards
   Except by Gerle (1532)
   And the Dowlands (1610)
   And Ganassi (1543)
   And Mersenne (1636)
   And anyone who read their books and followed their instructions
   And anyone who played with wire-strung instruments with
   unequally-tempered fixed frets.
   Or unequally tempered keyboard instruments or wind or string players
   who played in unequal temperament.
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Equal temperament was used on lutes from the 16th century onwards (much
   contemporary comment/evidence). This is because the same fret spaces
   are obliged to fit both chromatic and diatonic intervals.

   However, some mid 17th century French style lute music might allow a
   particular meantone setting since the common use of unisons at
   cadencesa (especially at the third and fourth frets) might suggest
   there is a need to ensure these are in well in tune, But, of course,
   this can be achieved by tempering the open strings to fit rather than
   by tempering the frets.

   f you want to use a meantone which works over a modest range of keys
   you'll need to play a keyboard instrument.

   MH
   --- On Thu, 5/1/12, wikla  wrote:

 From: wikla 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor
 tuned lute...
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 5 January, 2012, 21:30

   Dear baroque lutenists,
   to me - a newcomer to the d-minor lutes - the keys with one or two
   sharps
   seem to be much easier to get in better tuning than the equal
   temperament!
   Is this perhaps already a commonly known fact?
   On the other hand, for ex. the g-minor is problematic with its f# and
   bb on
   the same - and 1st! - fret. On higher frets it is much easier to affect
   to
   the pitch.
   Just wondering, how would that be with three sharps... f# minor and A
   major
   .. ;)  Any experienced opinions by lutenists interested in better than
   ET
   tuning?   ;-)
   Arto
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you for this Howard and for your time.

   My starting point in any discussion on performance practice is a
   belief that the performance should respect the composer's intentions
   (to the best of our present knowledge) and thus what auditors expected
   to hear. The range requirements of these solo (English) lute songs is
   not great and well within the capabilities of most sopranos or tenors
   with only a modest ranges. So, as pointed out earlier, the only reason
   to transpose these particular lute songs is to perform them with a
   voice type (eg alto) it is highly unlikely the composer expected to be
   used. In short, it is indeed both unecessary to have to transpose on
   sight and to use the alto voice for these pieces (your 'two issues').

   As I wrote earlier, other modes of performance are perfectly possible
   and if nowadays some people like them, or even prefer them, then so be
   it.  But, like Hill, I do object to it (ie use of male altos in the
   repertoire) being touted as the way the Old Ones expected their music
   to be performed.  And, yes, regarding evidence: I do think we should
   try and seek it to bolster our suppositions rather than relying on
   personal unsubstantiated prejudices. We may not know everything with
   100% certainty but that's no excuse for ignoring what evidence we
   actually do have.

   Incidentally, the second part of David Hill's paper has now appeared
   (Early Music Review No 145). Hill is very well aware of the antipathy
   this 'uncomfortable truth'  may raise in some quarters but feels it is
   so very important to set the record straight. Towards the end he writes
   " these two articles have not been an attack on countertenors,
   merely their continuing unquestioned use in repertoire that they are
   very unlikely to have performed".  I salute his courage as well as
   his scholarship and urge you to read it. You can subscribe to Early
   Music Review for only around -L-20 a year and for that you get both the
   Review and the Diary which lists many international concerts,
   festivals, conferences, workshops and lectures...

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 2/12/11, howard posner  wrote:

 From: howard posner 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing
 lute tablature on sight
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" , "lute
 mailing list list" 
 Date: Friday, 2 December, 2011, 18:28

   On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:58 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >   As David Hill points out (have you bothered
   >   to read his paper?) the voice generally expected when the songs
   were
   >   composed was soprano/tenor.  As he says, the male alto, to take
   David
   >   Van Oijan's personal preference, was certainly around but in
   England
   >   "was not deployed as a solo voice outside of a cathedral,
   collegiate or
   >   courtly chapel..."
   You've been bandying about two issues here, and I think you've confused
   them.  First, is it anachronistic to transpose lute songs (and the
   subsidiary question about whether David van Ooijen is some kind of
   freak because he transposes tablature accompaniments without writing
   out the transposition)?  Second, is it anachronistic, in a
   renaissance-faire sort of way, for male altos to sing lute songs?  Your
   answer yes to both questions, and indeed cite the second answer as
   dispositive of the first question.
   I see several fundamental flaws in your conclusion.
   First, male altos' range considerations are no different from those of
   female altos or baritones or basses.  So male altos are relevant to the
   question of transposing lute songs only in that they would add numbers
   to the class of singers who would need to transpose a song published in
   the soprano/tenor range, which would indicate that more than half the
   available singers might need to transpose at least some of the songs if
   they wanted to sing the top line.  The class of transposers might
   actually have been considerably more than half:  the songs were written
   for home use, largely by amateur singers, which might mean that a
   larger percentage of the singers would have had lower voices --
   amateurs tend to sing lower because they tend to use the same register
   singing as they do speaking, but let's put that aside for now.  The
   point is that male alto or no male alto, many singers would have needed
   to transpose their favorite lute song.
   Second, the idea that male altos weren't "deployed as a solo voice
   outside of a cathedral, collegiate or courtly chapel" is irrelevant to
   the question of whether they sang lute songs.  Again, these songs were
   published so that amateurs could sing them in their homes.  The singers
   were not "deployed."  They did what they did.  Male altos sang in
   English c

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? [wasTransposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Howard,

   You seem not to have read the mailings (yet again) and have therefore
   missed the entire point.  As David Hill points out (have you bothered
   to read his paper?) the voice generally expected when the songs were
   composed was soprano/tenor.  As he says, the male alto, to take David
   Van Oijan's personal preference, was certainly around but in England
   "was not deployed as a solo voice outside of a cathedral, collegiate or
   courtly chapel..."

   Of course anything is possible as entertainment (men in tights etc) but
   it ought not to masqerade as period performance - as still appears to
   be happening.  Indeed, Hill also tell us it was precisely
   this misconception (that male altos sung solo lute songs in Olden
   Times) that was the starting place for his paper.

   To repeat: Have you anything constructive to add to the exchange?
   Martyn

--- On Fri, 2/12/11, howard posner  wrote:
From: howard posner 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re:
A=392]
To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
Date: Friday, 2 December, 2011, 15:21

   On Dec 2, 2011, at 12:29 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > Have you anything constructive to add to the exchange?
   No; once you've told us that transposition is unnecessary because
   almost half the singers who'd want to sing the music can do it without
   transposition, you've said it all.
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well, it was the siubject of a further exchange of mails. The subject
   title was amended to:

   [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? [wasTransposing lute
   tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]].

   Have you anything constructive to add to the exchange?
   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 1/12/11, howard posner  wrote:

 From: howard posner 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
 Re: A=392]
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Thursday, 1 December, 2011, 21:14

   On Dec 1, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >  We've already discussed this: the range of these songs is well
   within
   >   that of the generality of sopranos and tenors  (see David Hill's
   recent
   >   paper which also discusses this matter) so there is really no need
   to
   >   transpose except, of course, for unexpected (at the time) voices in
   >   this repertoire
   I don't "we've already discussed this."   If someone told me that
   transposition is unnecessary because only altos (including women),
   baritones and basses would need it, I would have remembered it.  It
   makes a strong impression.
   Is this where Graham Chapman comes on in his colonel's uniform and
   stops the discussion because it's too silly?
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Howard,

   We've already discussed this: the range of these songs is well within
   that of the generality of sopranos and tenors  (see David Hill's recent
   paper which also discusses this matter) so there is really no need to
   transpose except, of course, for unexpected (at the time) voices in
   this repertoire such as David's male alto.  Again, see David Hill's
   paper - well worth a read.

   Martyn


   --- On Thu, 1/12/11, howard posner  wrote:

 From: howard posner 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
 Re: A=392]
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Thursday, 1 December, 2011, 16:06

   On Dec 1, 2011, at 2:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > why would you wish to transpose the lute part at all?
   I can claim no particular great expertise on the subject of
   transposition motivation, but could it be in any way possible (and I
   know this sounds crazy) that the idea of transposition comes from the
   singer rather than the lute player?
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Male alto in Lute songs? [wasTransposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you for this David,

   I'm afraid I'm going to mention the dreaded 'e' word again: what
   evidence have you that the male alto ('countertenor') voice was used
   historically to perform lute songs?

   You may care to read David Hill's recent paper in Early Music Review
   (no 144): 'All Fur Coat and No Knickers - Did countertenors ever sing
   lute songs before 1953?'

   Martyn

   --- On Thu, 1/12/11, David van Ooijen  wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
 Re: A=392]
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" 
 Date: Thursday, 1 December, 2011, 10:22

   On 1 December 2011 11:08, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   wrote:
   > Further to this, all the sopranos and tenors I have worked with have
   found the early lute song repertoire well within their comfortable
   range: why would you wish to transpose the lute part at all?
   I see. I work a lot with an altus, so I have to transpose most of the
   lute songs, and many of the continuo songs; somehow we always end up
   in f-minor ... |-(. To add to that, he likes to keep his options open
   for a concert: a little higher or lower depending on the condition of
   the voice. And I accompany in many lute song workshops. I prepare
   transpositions, but somehow the right one is always missing, so I
   bodge myself through the first read/sing through (can be _very_
   embarrassing), but get better along the way. So much better that I
   don't bother to write out the transposition for the concert at the end
   of the workshops. It's a skill that comes through practise, obviously.
   But with the advent of computer score making (Finale in my case) I
   find my transposing skills deteriorating. Still, to be a good
   accompanist, I feel one should be able to transpose, at least good
   enough for first rehearsals.
   David - Messiah tonight, no transpositions
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   David,

   Further to this, all the sopranos and tenors I have worked with have
   found the early lute song repertoire well within their comfortable
   range: why would you wish to transpose the lute part at all?

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 1/12/11, Martyn Hodgson  wrote:

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: Fw: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on
 sight [was Re: A=392]
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" ,
 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 Date: Thursday, 1 December, 2011, 10:03

   David, thanks again for the reply.

   But I do wish you'd supply general evidence to support your original
   assertion - rather than evading the issue. We all have, no doubt, our
   personal views on matters which are little supported by any significant
   facts - but to try and make a general case on such a shaky basis is a
   wholly different matter.

   Martyn



   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen 
   wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
 Re: A=392]
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 15:39

   On 30 November 2011 16:12, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >   What you actually wrote was 'Transposing lute song (intabulated
   parts)
   >   isn't that hard for an experienced player'.  And yes, that does
   rather
   >   imply all 'experienced' players.
   Yes, it does rather, doesn't it?
   >   what evidence do you have for your assertion that
   >   all these other 'experienced' players can readily transpose on
   sight?
   I love these questions: "Evidence of other experienced players
   transposing tablature on sight". What more do you want evidence for,
   Martyn? Can a lute payer play a lute? Can a lute player read
   tablature? Does he know chords? Does he recognise a melody? Does he
   understand what he's doing? If all these questions are answered in the
   affirmative, he can transpose. Ask your colleagues if they can
   transpose a lute song. If they're any good, of course they can. You
   can, can't you? Even I can, but it seems I'm taken out of the
   equation.
   David
   For those still hanging on in this serious discussion, here's some
   comic relieve I made for my guitar pupils. In Holland (and Belgium),
   on December 5 we celebrate the birthday of Sinterklaas, related to the
   better-known Santa Claus, as you'll be able to see by his hat. I'll
   make another Rudolph song for Christmas, provided I can find my
   antlers again.
   [2]http://www.youtube.com/meesterdavidgitaar#p/u/2/xLgnOMtkmPw
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://www.youtube.com/meesterdavidgitaar#p/u/2/xLgnOMtkmPw
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   David, thanks again for the reply.

   But I do wish you'd supply general evidence to support your original
   assertion - rather than evading the issue. We all have, no doubt, our
   personal views on matters which are little supported by any significant
   facts - but to try and make a general case on such a shaky basis is a
   wholly different matter.

   Martyn



   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen 
   wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
 Re: A=392]
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 15:39

   On 30 November 2011 16:12, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >   What you actually wrote was 'Transposing lute song (intabulated
   parts)
   >   isn't that hard for an experienced player'.  And yes, that does
   rather
   >   imply all 'experienced' players.
   Yes, it does rather, doesn't it?
   >   what evidence do you have for your assertion that
   >   all these other 'experienced' players can readily transpose on
   sight?
   I love these questions: "Evidence of other experienced players
   transposing tablature on sight". What more do you want evidence for,
   Martyn? Can a lute payer play a lute? Can a lute player read
   tablature? Does he know chords? Does he recognise a melody? Does he
   understand what he's doing? If all these questions are answered in the
   affirmative, he can transpose. Ask your colleagues if they can
   transpose a lute song. If they're any good, of course they can. You
   can, can't you? Even I can, but it seems I'm taken out of the
   equation.
   David
   For those still hanging on in this serious discussion, here's some
   comic relieve I made for my guitar pupils. In Holland (and Belgium),
   on December 5 we celebrate the birthday of Sinterklaas, related to the
   better-known Santa Claus, as you'll be able to see by his hat. I'll
   make another Rudolph song for Christmas, provided I can find my
   antlers again.
   [2]http://www.youtube.com/meesterdavidgitaar#p/u/2/xLgnOMtkmPw
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://www.youtube.com/meesterdavidgitaar#p/u/2/xLgnOMtkmPw
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear David,

   Thank you for this.  I too think it a useful skill to be able to
   transpose staff notation on sight (and, indeed, I often do when playing
   theorbo continuo) but I think transposing tablature is a rather
   different matter and I was therefore surprised that David thought it an
   accomplishment all experienced modern players possesed.  Perhaps they
   do - I've just not seen any evidence to support the assertion.

   Martyn.
   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David Smith  wrote:

 From: David Smith 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
 Re: A=392]
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" ,
 "David van Ooijen" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 15:45

   Just to jump in the fray. My wife is aprofessional musician, as many of
   you are, and I asked here if she thought it was an important skill for
   piano accompanists to be able to transpose on sight. Her response was a
   resounding yes.
   Now I know the piano is a more amenable for transposition instrument
   than the lute but I would also assume the skill would be important for
   accompanying singers with lute. That neither means it is common nor is
   it easy (having had to do instantaneous translation on the piano for my
   music degree and not feeling accomplished at all gives me an
   appreciation for the challenge).
   Anyway, this is not proof but an observation from another part of the
   musical spectrum that I think is relevant.
   Regards
   David
   Sent from my iPhone
   On Nov 30, 2011, at 7:12 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >
   >   Well, I'll have another bash.
   >
   >   What you actually wrote was 'Transposing lute song (intabulated
   parts)
   >   isn't that hard for an experienced player'.  And yes, that does
   rather
   >   imply all 'experienced' players.  But this isn't really the point
   is
   >   it? - more to it is what evidence do you have for your assertion
   that
   >   all these other 'experienced' players can readily transpose on
   sight?
   >   I'm not particularly interested in what you tell me are your
   personal
   >   accomplishments but in the more general application of your
   assertion
   >   to other players. Perhaps you might address this?
   >
   >   Many thanks,
   >
   >   MH
   >
   >
   >
   >   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen
   <[2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
   >   wrote:
   >
   > From: David van Ooijen <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
   > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
   > To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)"
   <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   > Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 14:07
   >
   >   On 30 November 2011 14:46, Martyn Hodgson
   >   <[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >> I think the same general query applies to modern players too - what
   >   evidence have you for your assertion that all experienced players
   can
   >   transpose tablature on sight?
   >   Gosh, there goes my English again! Did I really write 'all
   experienced
   >   players'? Shouldn't think so. Make that 'experienced players', or
   read
   >   my mail again and see that's what I did write. The question should
   be,
   >   of course, what makes a player experienced (or good, or a pro, or a
   >   survivor in the rough world of lute song accompaniment)? Many lute
   >   song accompanists, dare I say experienced  lute song accompanists,
   >   will agree transposing songs is a useful skill. Or carrying around
   a
   >   bag of transpositions, like Bob Spencer did. Perhaps that's what
   marks
   >   the experienced player: to be prepared for possible transpositions.
   >   Anyway, you mean you want to have a list of all the times I had to
   >   transpose on sight over the last 20- dd years? Or a list of the
   songs,
   >   or a list of the most common transpositions, most common reasons,
   or a
   >   rating of the relative success of my transpositions (could be
   >   embarrassing, let's leave that out).
   >   David - had a spontaneous transposition within a recit of Messiah
   last
   >   weekend, but the cello player and alto didn't transpose along. How
   >   petty of them, not going along with my half tone lower ...
   >   --
   >   ***
   >   David van Ooijen
   >   [2][6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   >   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   >   ***
   >   To get on or off this list see list information at
   >   [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >   --
   >
   > References
   >
   >   1.
   [8]http://us.mc817.

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well, I'll have another bash.

   What you actually wrote was 'Transposing lute song (intabulated parts)
   isn't that hard for an experienced player'.  And yes, that does rather
   imply all 'experienced' players.  But this isn't really the point is
   it? - more to it is what evidence do you have for your assertion that
   all these other 'experienced' players can readily transpose on sight?
   I'm not particularly interested in what you tell me are your personal
   accomplishments but in the more general application of your assertion
   to other players. Perhaps you might address this?

   Many thanks,

   MH



   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen 
   wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 14:07

   On 30 November 2011 14:46, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   > I think the same general query applies to modern players too - what
   evidence have you for your assertion that all experienced players can
   transpose tablature on sight?
   Gosh, there goes my English again! Did I really write 'all experienced
   players'? Shouldn't think so. Make that 'experienced players', or read
   my mail again and see that's what I did write. The question should be,
   of course, what makes a player experienced (or good, or a pro, or a
   survivor in the rough world of lute song accompaniment)? Many lute
   song accompanists, dare I say experienced  lute song accompanists,
   will agree transposing songs is a useful skill. Or carrying around a
   bag of transpositions, like Bob Spencer did. Perhaps that's what marks
   the experienced player: to be prepared for possible transpositions.
   Anyway, you mean you want to have a list of all the times I had to
   transpose on sight over the last 20- dd years? Or a list of the songs,
   or a list of the most common transpositions, most common reasons, or a
   rating of the relative success of my transpositions (could be
   embarrassing, let's leave that out).
   David - had a spontaneous transposition within a recit of Messiah last
   weekend, but the cello player and alto didn't transpose along. How
   petty of them, not going along with my half tone lower ...
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "David van Ooijen" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 13:46


   Thank you for this.

   I think the same general query applies to modern players too - what
   evidence have you for your assertion that all experienced players can
   transpose tablature on sight?

   MH


   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen 
   wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 13:28

   On 30 November 2011 11:18, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   > So, if I understand you right, the early lute players could all
   transpose tablature on sight - have you any evidence for this
   assertion?
   >
   > You also suggest we shouldn't discuss such matters... I wonder
   why?
   Oh dear, is my English that bad?
   This is what I wrote:
   >>
   > Transposing lute song (intabulated parts) isn't that hard for an
   > experienced player. No need to write it out, no need to write about
   > it.
   <<
   Did I speak of early lute players? No, I wrote 'experienced player'.
   That would include early as well as not so early lute players, as long
   as they are experienced. I'm a not so early lute player and I've
   accompanied a few lute songs in my time, so, just for the sake of
   argument, let's consider me experienced. I can transpose an
   intabulated lute song accompaniment on sight. Next part of your
   question. Did I say we shouldn't discuss matters? No, I wrote that if
   transposing on sight is a common skill, there is no need to write out
   parts and there is no need to write about the skill of transposing on
   sight.
   And now I've got myself into trouble, because I just wrote about
   something for which I didn't see the need to write ... what shall I
   do?
   And once again, I do apologise for my bad English, so sorry.
   David
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Jonas,

   My message was a reply to an earlier one from David Van Oijan not from
   you!

   Best wishes

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, Jonas Larsson  wrote:

 From: Jonas Larsson 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 10:32

   Oh, I didn't mean to be rude. I was just suggesting that the
   transposing part would not actually be a problem. Or do you think it
   would (with respect to the singer, that is)? And I did not mean that
   all players could tranpose on sight (that is, transpose exactly). I
   guess, what I am suggesting, is that as I understand it, musicians at
   the time were rather skilled in improvising and, maybe, could more
   easilly than many of us today accompany singers by ear. Just a thought.
   2011/11/30 Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>

 From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>

   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

 To: "David van Ooijen" <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 10:18
   Thank you for this.
   So, if I understand you right, the early lute players could all
   transpose tablature on sight - have you any evidence for this
   assertion?
   You also suggest we shouldn't discuss such matters... I wonder
 why?
   MH
   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen
 <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
 From: David van Ooijen <[5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)"
 <[6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 9:32

 On 30 November 2011 09:54, Martyn Hodgson

 <[1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
 >   lute required for a  particular pitch and tuning.  If singers
 couldn't
 >   transpose sufficiently (because of their particular vocal range)
 then
 >   the lute part would have to be re-intabulated or a different
   sized
 >   instrument employed;   tho' this seems an extreme remedy
 Transposing lute song (intabulated parts) isn't that hard for an
 experienced player. No need to write it out, no need to write about
 it. I think we (I at least) do it all the time. I'll notate a bass
 line if it's complicated. On the other hand, like Bob Spencer, I do
 carry around a set of transposed Dowland songs. :-)
 The discussion started on baroque lutes. Not many lute songs with
 intabulated parts for those. If anything, there will be a continuo
 part. No need to even discuss transposing: just do it.
 David
 --
 ***
 David van Ooijen

   [2][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com

 [9]www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***
 To get on or off this list see list information at

   [3][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1.
 [11]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo
 .co.uk
   2.
 [12]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooijen@gmai
 l.com
   3. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   9. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "David van Ooijen" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 10:18

   Thank you for this.

   So, if I understand you right, the early lute players could all
   transpose tablature on sight - have you any evidence for this
   assertion?

   You also suggest we shouldn't discuss such matters... I wonder why?

   MH
   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, David van Ooijen 
   wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 9:32

   On 30 November 2011 09:54, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >   lute required for a  particular pitch and tuning.  If singers
   couldn't
   >   transpose sufficiently (because of their particular vocal range)
   then
   >   the lute part would have to be re-intabulated or a different sized
   >   instrument employed;   tho' this seems an extreme remedy
   Transposing lute song (intabulated parts) isn't that hard for an
   experienced player. No need to write it out, no need to write about
   it. I think we (I at least) do it all the time. I'll notate a bass
   line if it's complicated. On the other hand, like Bob Spencer, I do
   carry around a set of transposed Dowland songs. :-)
   The discussion started on baroque lutes. Not many lute songs with
   intabulated parts for those. If anything, there will be a continuo
   part. No need to even discuss transposing: just do it.
   David
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Martyn Hodgson]

Dear Bill,


   I suspect there was little debate because the use of gut trebles (and
   the general advice to tune as high as possible without breaking the
   string) placed a general and well understood limitation on the size of
   lute required for a  particular pitch and tuning.  If singers couldn't
   transpose sufficiently (because of their particular vocal range) then
   the lute part would have to be re-intabulated or a different sized
   instrument employed;   tho' this seems an extreme remedy unless one had
   numerous lutes to hand and the vocal transposition required was large.

   But to say there was no acknowledgement of the issue is not true. To
   take just one example: Mace (amongst others) clearly recounts how
   theorbo pitch is related to instrument size and that larger instruments
   require low octaves on the second course as well as the first etc.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 8:35

  I sometimes wonder why I haven't come across much in the way of
  contemporary agonisings about pitch standards and compatibility of
  lutes with their wide range of scale lengths for a given nominal
  pitch.  Presumably this would have been a problem for the old guys
  too?  Or have I missed something?
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; Baroque lute Dmth
  <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 12:46
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
I think the same applies to lute accompaniment as well if the
   piece
  is
in tablature.  Of course if its just a bass line one can transpose
   I
suppose but, provided the piece is reasonably within range,
   singers
  are
generally OK to transpose on sight - unless, of course, they're
  cursed
with 'perfect' (modern) pitch..
Martyn
--- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind <[1][4]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
   wrote:
  From: Anthony Hind <[2][5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
  Subject: Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 12:11
I was rather thinking of a singer being accompanied by a single
   lute,
in which perhaps the choice of lute might be secondary and
   determined
by the best range, and tonal agreement with the singer. In the
   case
  of
a singer adapting to an orchestra, I imagine you would be right.
Anthony
- Mail original -
De : Martyn Hodgson <[1][4][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : William Samson <[2][5][8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>;
"[3][6][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
  <[4][7][10]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
Anthony Hind <[5][8][11]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Cc :
Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 12h58
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
Dear Anthony,
Unless outside their range, won't singers simply transpose to
   fit
with
the key/pitch of the accompaniment rather than the band having
   to
change instruments?
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind
   <[6][9][12]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
  wrote:
  From: Anthony Hind <[7][10][13]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  To: "William Samson" <[8][11][14]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>,
  "[9][12][15]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[10][13][16]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 11:41
For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is
   to
have a
number of different sized lutes.
Anthony
- Mail original -
De : William Samson <[1][11][14][17]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : Anthony Hind <[2][12][15][18]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>;
   sterling
  price
<[3][13][16][19]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
Cc : "[4][14][17][20]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[5][15][18][21]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned
   to
392Hz
is
  ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a
   higher
pitch
  standard - usually 4

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I think the same applies to lute accompaniment as well if the piece is
   in tablature.  Of course if its just a bass line one can transpose I
   suppose but, provided the piece is reasonably within range, singers are
   generally OK to transpose on sight - unless, of course, they're cursed
   with 'perfect' (modern) pitch..

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
     To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 12:11

   I was rather thinking of a singer being accompanied by a single lute,
   in which perhaps the choice of lute might be secondary and determined
   by the best range, and tonal agreement with the singer. In the case of
   a singer adapting to an orchestra, I imagine you would be right.
   Anthony
   - Mail original -----
   De : Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   A : William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>;
   "[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
   Anthony Hind <[5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
   Cc :
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 12h58
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  Dear Anthony,
  Unless outside their range, won't singers simply transpose to fit
   with
  the key/pitch of the accompaniment rather than the band having to
  change instruments?
  regards
  Martyn
  --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind <[6]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <[7]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
To: "William Samson" <[8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[10]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 11:41
  For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to
   have a
  number of different sized lutes.
  Anthony
  - Mail original -
  De : William Samson <[1][11]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
  A : Anthony Hind <[2][12]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; sterling price
  <[3][13]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
  Cc : "[4][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
  <[5][15]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
  Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to
   392Hz
  is
 ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher
   pitch
 standard - usually 415Hz.  That's where a 66cm baroque lute would
   be
 useful.  Having said that, not many lutes that small have
   survived.
  Of
 course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to
   transpose a
 semitone up without any trouble.
 Bill
 From: Anthony Hind <[6][16]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
 To: sterling price <[7][17]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
 Cc: "[8][18]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
  <[9][19]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
   My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to
 392Hz,
   I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just
 shifted
   them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed
   most
  of
 the
   mid and top strings.
   The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
   A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
   Anthony
   PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played
   at
 392,
   but perhaps not all.
  __
   De : sterling price <[1][10][20]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
   A : howard posner <[2][11][21]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; baroque
   lute
  list
   <[3][12][22]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st
   and
 2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I
   will
  go
   that
 way.
 Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at
  A=392? I
 think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not
  convinced
 it
 should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm
 Burkholzer
 will stay at 415.
 -Sterling
 From: howard posner <[1][4][13][23]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
 To: baroque lute list
   <[2][5][14][24]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,

   Unless outside their range, won't singers simply transpose to fit with
   the key/pitch of the accompaniment rather than the band having to
   change instruments?

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 To: "William Samson" ,
 "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 11:41

   For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to have a
   number of different sized lutes.
   Anthony
   - Mail original -
   De : William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
   A : Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; sterling price
   <[3]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
   Cc : "[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to 392Hz
   is
  ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher pitch
  standard - usually 415Hz.  That's where a 66cm baroque lute would be
  useful.  Having said that, not many lutes that small have survived.
   Of
  course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to transpose a
  semitone up without any trouble.
  Bill
  From: Anthony Hind <[6]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
  To: sterling price <[7]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
  Cc: "[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to
  392Hz,
I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just
  shifted
them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most
   of
  the
mid and top strings.
The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
Anthony
PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at
  392,
but perhaps not all.

   __
De : sterling price <[1][10]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
A : howard posner <[2][11]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; baroque lute
   list
<[3][12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
  2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will
   go
that
  way.
  Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at
   A=392? I
  think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not
   convinced
  it
  should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm
  Burkholzer
  will stay at 415.
  -Sterling
  From: howard posner <[1][4][13]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
  To: baroque lute list <[2][5][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
  On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
  > My question is: should I
  >  just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of
   strings
for
  >  392?
  Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
  > Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound
   better
  >  with new strings. Any thoughts?
  Do you like it at 392 now?
  --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3][6][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
--
  References
1. mailto:[7][16]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
2. mailto:[8][17]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. [9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. mailto:[19]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
  2. mailto:[20]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
  3. mailto:[21]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. mailto:[22]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
  5. mailto:[23]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  6. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  7. mailto:[25]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
  8. mailto:[26]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  9. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo.com
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Angelique music?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Baines has good photos of some instruments (looks a bit like a late
   theorboed German lute).

   Its tablature looks like conventional lute tablature of the period
   with, of course, extra basses.

   MH

   --- On Sat, 5/11/11, Stuart Walsh  wrote:

 From: Stuart Walsh 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Angelique music?
 To: "wikla" 
 Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Saturday, 5 November, 2011, 10:52

   > Dear lutenists,
   >
   > do you know if any music for angelique have been published, or even
   better
   > on-line in the net? The Tree Edition seems to have published a
   > transcription of one important ms. to baroque lute, but is the source
   > available somewhere?
   >
   > I am just thinking of stringing my "lesser French theorbo" to
   angelique.
   > But are 14 strings enough to angelique repertoire? I think angeliques
   had
   > at least a couple of more strings, but how important are those to the
   > repertoire? I would like to have a look... ;-)
   >
   > Thanks in advance,
   >
   > Arto
   >
   I'd be interested to hear what the music sound like - and what it looks
   like. And what an angelique looks like.
   According to the Oxford Companion, it's diatonic but (unlike the
   bandura which is just a big psaltery) it has five frets. The first fret
   is for sharps and flats (on the strings on the neck) and the the other
   frets are just for the top string. Very strange.
   I just came across this:
   ...
   Giulliame Dumanoir (1615-1697)2 writes in 1664:
   "Do we not now see in France and in Spain persons of either sex, and of
   the highest rank, devoting
   themselves to music and learning to play the harpsichord, the guitar,
   the angA(c)lique and the lute?"
   ...
   Arto do you know of this online Master Thesis on French Baroque lute
   music 1650-1700, where this quote comes from?
   [1]http://brage.bibsys.no/hia/bitstream/URN:NBN:no-bibsys_brage_13582/1
   /Robin%20Rolfhamre.pdf
   Stuart
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. 
http://brage.bibsys.no/hia/bitstream/URN:NBN:no-bibsys_brage_13582/1/Robin%20Rolfhamre.pdf
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D# Minor Suite: fretting implications

[Martyn Hodgson]

   For true intonation the size of a chromatic semitone is different to a
   diatonic semitone: so that, for example, the interval C# to D is larger
   than Db to D.  Advocates of unequal temperament fretting on the lute
   will therefore presumably need to decide which key they are in..

   MH

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Rob,

   The (single) basses of theorbos (and archlutes) are generally much
   closer than even 12mm - some extant are less than 10mm! - and one is
   able to navigate these. I suspect habit lays down neural pathways in
   the brain which enable us to change from one instrument to another (I'm
   still amazed at this facility ...). So in thoery an inter-course
   seperation of 12mm should not cause insurmountable obstacles in the
   long term - simply a matter of habit I guess.

   Finally, I recall that the inter-course seperation of the few liuti
   attiorbato I've measured was significantly less than ordinary
   contemporary lutes -  around 12mm

   rgds

   M
   --- On Tue, 4/10/11, Rob MacKillop  wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
 To: "sterling price" 
 Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
 Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 22:49

   That's getting on the wide side, Sterling. Would you have a problem
   with Bar 4 of L'Infidele? I agree that close spacing is difficult. I
   don't know how people can play with a string band of less than 148, but
   they do. People find a way.
   Rob
   www.robmackillop.net
   On 4 Oct 2011, at 22:34, sterling price <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
   wrote:
   >   The bridge spacing I use is 157mm and is based on a large Edlinger.
   >   Whenever I play a lute with a spacing much smaller than this, I
   find it
   >   very difficult to play.
   >
   >   --Sterling
   >   From: Rob MacKillop <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   >   To: BAROQUE-LUTE <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >   Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:05 AM
   >   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
   >   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
   >   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not
   to
   >   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly
   growing
   >   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
   >   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
   >   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do
   this!'. I
   >   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
   day
   >   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
   Sarabandes,
   >   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I
   was
   >   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
   hit
   >   the Musette...
   >   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th
   and
   >   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute
   is
   >   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is
   is
   >   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does
   not
   >   seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all
   surviving
   >   13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
   >   passage make my stretch longer?
   >   Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in
   desperation,
   >   maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up
   an
   >   octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later.
   Any
   >   info on that?
   >   Rob MacKillop
   >   [1]www.robmackillop.net
   >   To get on or off this list see list information at
   >   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >   --
   >
   > References
   >
   >   1. [5]http://www.robmackillop.net/
   >

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robmackil...@gmail.com
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.robmackillop.net/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Bill,

   Indeed these are the figures I recall.

   The average of all them all is 148.  As already remarked, the Edlinger
   (and some other Hapsburg lands instruments) seem generally bigger  than
   most at around 155mm; whereas the Hoffmann's (North German) seem to be
   generally in the mid 140s.  Perhaps reflecting local tastes? - but too
   small a sample to draw any clear conclusions.

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 4/10/11, William Samson  wrote:

 From: William Samson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "BAROQUE-LUTE"
 , "Rob MacKillop"
 
 Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 12:02

  Hi Martyn,
  I believe I've found David's stuff on string spacings in the
   archive:
  [1][1]http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19722.htm
   l
  Best regards,
  Bill
  From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: BAROQUE-LUTE <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Rob MacKillop
  <[4]robmackil...@gmail.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2011, 10:25
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele
Dear Rob,
It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the
   BL
  MS
is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course
   being
altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).
I think there are two factors here:
1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first
  and
13th to be plucked simultaneously.
2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of
  153mm
isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
(1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course
  seperation
reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later
   large
theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course
   seperation.
However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument
  with
a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann
   as
witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late
   'galant'
type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand:
   in
DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the
   courses
and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
manipulated very easily'.
Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average
   of
153mm?
regards,
Martyn
  From: Rob MacKillop <[2][5]robmackil...@gmail.com>
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
  To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[3][6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05
Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not
   to
look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly
   growing
in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was
   a
great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do
   this!'.
  I
read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one
  day
be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss
  Sarabandes,
is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I
   was
beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I
  hit
the Musette...
Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th
   and
(presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my
   lute
  is
153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is
   is
very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does
  not
seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all
  surviving
13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
passage make my stretch longer?
An

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: L'Infidele

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Rob,

   It is a stretch but I do think the low A (ie 13th) is meant: the BL MS
   is very clear and there are no signs of an a on the 6th course being
   altered to a 6 (as we sometimes find elsewhere).

   I think there are two factors here:

   1. Clearly much depends on how one disposes the hand: to play such
   extensions I move the thumb closer to the bridge (ie behind the
   plucking position of the fingers) and I find this allows the first and
   13th to be plucked simultaneously.

   2. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure if a string band of 153mm
   isn't a bit too wide for a 13 course instrument.  The JC  Hoffmann
   (1730) string band is 140mm (both the Museum and Stephen Murphy's
   drawings) and my own instrument is 145mm (based on an average
   inter-course seperation of 12mm). As pointed out in a FoMRHI paper
   several years ago, there is some evidence that inter-course seperation
   reduced with the advent of the additional two bass courses (eg the
   earlier 11 course JC Hoffmann of 1716  has an average inter-course
   seperation of around 13mm) but I agree that some of the later large
   theorboed German lutes exhibit quite large inter-course seperation.
   However Weiss seems to have written for the 13th course instrument with
   a single pegbox (with treble and bass riders) as the 1730 Hoffmann as
   witnessed by stopping basses below course 8 and not the late 'galant'
   type of 13th course lute. Incidentally,  Baron (1727) particularly
   singles out JC Hoffmann for making instruments which fit the hand: in
   DA Smith's translation 'He [JCH] also knows how to place the courses
   and strings at the proper distances so that his lutes can be
   manipulated very easily'.

   Finally, could you remind me of the paper /research source which
   analysis the sizes of 13th course bridges and suggests an average of
   153mm?

   regards,

   Martyn

 From: Rob MacKillop 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] L'Infidele
 To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
 Date: Tuesday, 4 October, 2011, 9:05

   Enjoying exploring my new 13c, and slowly getting the feel for
   right-hand string spacing and thumb placement. I'm determined not to
   look at my right hand, just feel my way. So, I've been slowly growing
   in confidence...until I read through Weiss' L'Infidele.
   It's years since I listened to anyone play this suite, and it was a
   great joy to start reading through the Entree: 'Hey, I can do this!'. I
   read the Courante slowly, but thinking it a possibility I will one day
   be able to play it up tempo. The Sarabande, like all Weiss Sarabandes,
   is sublimely beautiful. The minuet lies under the fingers. So, I was
   beginning to think this is a suite I can get my teeth into. Then I hit
   the Musette...
   Bar 4 demands the thumb on the 13th course, the index on the 5th and
   (presumably) the ring finger on the 1st. The string band on my lute is
   153mm, and I have large hands. I should be able to do this, but is is
   very hard. I can manage it, but, clearly, at a stretch. 153mm does not
   seem excessive, and is pretty much bang in the middle of all surviving
   13c bridges, in other words an average size. Will practise of this
   passage make my stretch longer?
   Anyone else have problems with this passage? I seem (in desperation,
   maybe) to recall someone arguing that originally the low A was up an
   octave at the 6th course, and the 13th course was written in later. Any
   info on that?
   Rob MacKillop
   www.robmackillop.net
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] correction to Re: Further to: PS to Re: v Radolt's lutes again

[Martyn Hodgson]

   As well (and quickly!) spotted the penultimate sentence of the second
   para should better read:

   'Thus, for example, at the end of the first bar of the  Ouverture in
   the first concerto the first violin(s) would have played an f'' (as
   indicated on the staff) at high cornet-ton but sounding bflat'' at
   tief-cammerton - or to look at it another way from a lute perspective:
   the first (very small) lute plays a Dm chord at cornet-ton but sounding
   Gm at tief-cammerton.'

   MH

   --- On Sun, 25/9/11, Martyn Hodgson  wrote:

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Further to: PS to Re: v Radolt's lutes
 again
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ,
 "lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" , "Christopher
 Pearcy" 
 Date: Sunday, 25 September, 2011, 10:28

  Dear Chris,
  You're quite right: the issue of pitches between various instruments
   is
  not straightforward.  The paper Bill and I developed for
  FoMRHI Quarterly No 44 (July 1986) was primarily concerned with the
  organological matters relevant particularly for this particular
   journal
  (in particular the lute of this period in Vienna) - so that the
  description of lute sizes was related to what little we know of
   lutes
  around this time (ie 1701), including: French lute conversions;
   extant
  lutes built around the time (esp in Hapsburg lands); and other
  contemporary evidence (eg the Talbot Ms).  But I'll try now to
  summarise my thoughts on the notes indicated in both the tablature
   and
  the staff notation and attempt to briefly reconcile these to what
  Radolt has to say about lute sizes.
  The staff notation of the bowed string parts might indeed seem to
   imply
  the pitches that you list for the lutes (ie f', eflat', c') - but
   this
  assumes all the instruments in the ensemble are nominally at the
   same
  pitch standard. There seems to have been a range of  5 semitones
  between the highest (cornet-ton+1 - around +3 semitones higher than
  A440) and the lowest (tief-cammer-ton - around -2 semitones below
  A440): a total of 5 semitones. So that the bowed instruments may
   have
  been pitched at cornet-ton (indeed appropriate for orchestral use)
   with
  the lutes at tief-cammerton (relevant to their mostly chamber
  repertoire). Thus, for example, at the end of the first bar of the
  Ouverture in the first concerto the first violin(s) would have
   played
  an f''' at high cornet-ton but sounding bflat'' at tief-cammerton -
   or
  to look at it another way from a lute perspective: the first (very
  small) lute plays a Dm chord at tief-cammerton but it sounds a Gm
   chord
  at cornet-ton. Incidentally, I'm quite happy to allow a semitone
   either
  way and, indeed, contemporary French chamber low pitch may have been
  even lower than tief-cammerton.
  Regarding lute sizes, I'm also happy to allow a semitone's increase
   (in
  view of some larger contemporary instruments by Edlinger) so that
   I'd
  now suggest Radolt's proper large common lute may have been up to
  around 76cm, his middling sized lute up to around 66cm (like the
   Berr)
  and his very small lute up to around 57cm.
  Incidentally, if a 'baroque' lute were to be strung with top course
   at
  c' it would need to have a string length of around 91cm to maintain
   a
  similar top string stress as the other lutes..
  Martyn
  --- On Sat, 24/9/11, Christopher Pearcy
   <[1]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
  wrote:
From: Christopher Pearcy <[2]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Further to: PS to Fw: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's
lutes again
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
"[6]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" <[7]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
Date: Saturday, 24 September, 2011, 18:07
  Dear Martyn, Bill, Andreas and others
  My initial enquiry to the list was about what the (nominal) pitches
   of
  v Radolt's lutes were in relation to the string parts in his
   concerti
  ie what pitches they needed to be in order for all three lutes and
   the
  strings to be playing in the same key as the staff notation of the
  strings! I do not have a copy of the facsimile myself. Andreas
   Schlegel
  replied that the three lutes needed to be tuned so that they
  respectively had chanterelles at f1, e flat1 and c1, and pointed out
  that Vienna pitch was A467. Martyn also replied and referred me to
   his
  work on the pitching of von Radolt's 3 lutes in rela

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Further to: PS to Re: v Radolt's lutes again

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Chris,

   You're quite right: the issue of pitches between various instruments is
   not straightforward.  The paper Bill and I developed for
   FoMRHI Quarterly No 44 (July 1986) was primarily concerned with the
   organological matters relevant particularly for this particular journal
   (in particular the lute of this period in Vienna) - so that the
   description of lute sizes was related to what little we know of lutes
   around this time (ie 1701), including: French lute conversions; extant
   lutes built around the time (esp in Hapsburg lands); and other
   contemporary evidence (eg the Talbot Ms).  But I'll try now to
   summarise my thoughts on the notes indicated in both the tablature and
   the staff notation and attempt to briefly reconcile these to what
   Radolt has to say about lute sizes.

   The staff notation of the bowed string parts might indeed seem to imply
   the pitches that you list for the lutes (ie f', eflat', c') - but this
   assumes all the instruments in the ensemble are nominally at the same
   pitch standard. There seems to have been a range of  5 semitones
   between the highest (cornet-ton+1 - around +3 semitones higher than
   A440) and the lowest (tief-cammer-ton - around -2 semitones below
   A440): a total of 5 semitones. So that the bowed instruments may have
   been pitched at cornet-ton (indeed appropriate for orchestral use) with
   the lutes at tief-cammerton (relevant to their mostly chamber
   repertoire). Thus, for example, at the end of the first bar of the
   Ouverture in the first concerto the first violin(s) would have played
   an f''' at high cornet-ton but sounding bflat'' at tief-cammerton - or
   to look at it another way from a lute perspective: the first (very
   small) lute plays a Dm chord at tief-cammerton but it sounds a Gm chord
   at cornet-ton. Incidentally, I'm quite happy to allow a semitone either
   way and, indeed, contemporary French chamber low pitch may have been
   even lower than tief-cammerton.

   Regarding lute sizes, I'm also happy to allow a semitone's increase (in
   view of some larger contemporary instruments by Edlinger) so that I'd
   now suggest Radolt's proper large common lute may have been up to
   around 76cm, his middling sized lute up to around 66cm (like the Berr)
   and his very small lute up to around 57cm.

   Incidentally, if a 'baroque' lute were to be strung with top course at
   c' it would need to have a string length of around 91cm to maintain a
   similar top string stress as the other lutes..

   Martyn

   --- On Sat, 24/9/11, Christopher Pearcy 
   wrote:

 From: Christopher Pearcy 
 Subject: RE: Further to: PS to Fw: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's
 lutes again
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" ,
 "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ,
 "lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" 
 Date: Saturday, 24 September, 2011, 18:07

   Dear Martyn, Bill, Andreas and others
   My initial enquiry to the list was about what the (nominal) pitches of
   v Radolt's lutes were in relation to the string parts in his concerti
   ie what pitches they needed to be in order for all three lutes and the
   strings to be playing in the same key as the staff notation of the
   strings! I do not have a copy of the facsimile myself. Andreas Schlegel
   replied that the three lutes needed to be tuned so that they
   respectively had chanterelles at f1, e flat1 and c1, and pointed out
   that Vienna pitch was A467. Martyn also replied and referred me to his
   work on the pitching of von Radolt's 3 lutes in relation to kammer-,
   chor- and cornet- ton. I'm unable to reconcile Andreas and Martyn's
   data, unless I've horribly misunderstood either or both of their
   communications. This started as what I saw as a simple request for
   information from a score and has now become very complicated.
   In any case, my lute is a copy of the Vienna C34 Frei - it has lost 4mm
   of string length so is 67cm for a man with small hands. I'm currently
   trying it out at A440 with highish tension (or as I would like to
   describe it tuned in E minor at A392!).
   Best wishes
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: 24 September 2011 14:50
   To: Christopher Pearcy
   Subject: Further to: PS to Fw: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes
   again
   Dear Chris,

   A few further thoughts just to you:

One of the reasons we decided to focus on a Dm lute string length of
   around 72cm in our
   original pape was that the larger instruments (eg around 76cm) seemed
   to have mostly
   come in at a later date than Von Radolt's work. In short, we looked at
   18th century conversions of earlier lutes (as the French favoured and
   still, I believe, an important influence on the solo

[BAROQUE-LUTE] PS to Re: v Radolt's lutes again

[Martyn Hodgson]

   For f'' read f'  .

   MH
   --- On Sat, 24/9/11, Martyn Hodgson  wrote:

     From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes again
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ,
 "lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" , "Christopher
 Pearcy" 
 Date: Saturday, 24 September, 2011, 9:14

  Dear Chris,
  Thank you for this.
  Our paper suggested a 'reicht grosse ordinari Lautten' (proper large
  common lute) in the nominal Dm tuning at 72cm - which, based on the
  breaking stress of gut, indicates a pitch of the first course (at
  nominal f'') a whole tone below A440 ie at A392: - I'm not sure how
   you
  deduce from this that we suggest that such a sized lute would have
   its
  first course at c' at A467 (this would give a first course nominal
  pitch at A392 of only d#' not f'' as we suggest).
  Regarding your Frei instrument the usual advice might be best: tune
   it
  so that the first course is as close to breaking as practical (ie
  without breaking too frequently).
  MH
  .--- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy
   <[1]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
  wrote:
From: Christopher Pearcy <[2]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
"[6]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" <[7]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 19:04
  Thank you Martyn and Andreas
  However this leaves me even more puzzled. If v Radolt's reicht
   grosse
  ordinari lautten is a pretty standard German lute of around 72cm and
  its chanterelle is tuned at c1 at A467 it would be working well
   below
  its working tension (breaking tension minus 2 or 3 semitones). Might
  the mittere lautten be the the 'standard' lute and the grosse
   ordinari
  lautten be ordinari because it's an 11c lute and not a theorbo
   (another
  sort of grosse lautten) and grosse because it's above 'standard'
   size
  (like some of the Edlinger lutes)? This of course questions what
   chor,
  cornet and kammer - ton were in 1701 in Vienna - unless the strings
  played at a very high pitch, but that would probably cause problems
   in
  terms of the working tension of the violins. What solution does
   Hubert
  Hoffmann offer?
  My original question was to help me decide on a pitch for my small
   Frei
  but I think this may be muddying the waters. Please feel free to
   ignore
  this line of puzzling if you find it irritating.
  Best wishes
  Chris
__
  From: Martyn Hodgson [[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
  Sent: 23 September 2011 08:48
  To: [9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Christopher Pearcy
  Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
  See the paper by Bill Samson and myself (FoMRHI Comm 737 - available
  from the FoMRHI archives) about Von Radolt's instructions.
  Regarding the sizes of the lutes, the instructions suggest various
  sizes of 11 course lutes lute ranging from approx 54cm string length
  (Radolt's very small lute)  through a middle sized lute around 61 cm
   to
  his proper common lute at 72cm.
  The likely pitch (discussed in the paper) is determind by the
  instrument's string length and tensile strength of gut.
  MH
  --- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy
   <[10]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
  wrote:
From: Christopher Pearcy <[11]c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
To: "[12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[13]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 8:29
 Dear all
 If anyone has a copy of the v. Radolt lute concerti, could you
   tell
  me
 what are the (nominal) pitches of his 3 lutes in relation to the
  string
 parts. I'm looking at alternative pitching for my small Frei -
   and
  this
 may give me additional data to add to breaking index and pitch
 standards.
 Thanks in anticipation.
 Chris
 --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=c.pear...@uni.brighton.ac

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes again

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Chris,

   Thank you for this.

   Our paper suggested a 'reicht grosse ordinari Lautten' (proper large
   common lute) in the nominal Dm tuning at 72cm - which, based on the
   breaking stress of gut, indicates a pitch of the first course (at
   nominal f'') a whole tone below A440 ie at A392: - I'm not sure how you
   deduce from this that we suggest that such a sized lute would have its
   first course at c' at A467 (this would give a first course nominal
   pitch at A392 of only d#' not f'' as we suggest).

   Regarding your Frei instrument the usual advice might be best: tune it
   so that the first course is as close to breaking as practical (ie
   without breaking too frequently).

   MH
   .--- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy 
   wrote:

 From: Christopher Pearcy 
 Subject: RE: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" ,
 "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ,
 "lute.cor...@sunrise.ch" 
 Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 19:04

   Thank you Martyn and Andreas
   However this leaves me even more puzzled. If v Radolt's reicht grosse
   ordinari lautten is a pretty standard German lute of around 72cm and
   its chanterelle is tuned at c1 at A467 it would be working well below
   its working tension (breaking tension minus 2 or 3 semitones). Might
   the mittere lautten be the the 'standard' lute and the grosse ordinari
   lautten be ordinari because it's an 11c lute and not a theorbo (another
   sort of grosse lautten) and grosse because it's above 'standard' size
   (like some of the Edlinger lutes)? This of course questions what chor,
   cornet and kammer - ton were in 1701 in Vienna - unless the strings
   played at a very high pitch, but that would probably cause problems in
   terms of the working tension of the violins. What solution does Hubert
   Hoffmann offer?
   My original question was to help me decide on a pitch for my small Frei
   but I think this may be muddying the waters. Please feel free to ignore
   this line of puzzling if you find it irritating.
   Best wishes
   Chris
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: 23 September 2011 08:48
   To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Christopher Pearcy
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
   See the paper by Bill Samson and myself (FoMRHI Comm 737 - available
   from the FoMRHI archives) about Von Radolt's instructions.

   Regarding the sizes of the lutes, the instructions suggest various
   sizes of 11 course lutes lute ranging from approx 54cm string length
   (Radolt's very small lute)  through a middle sized lute around 61 cm to
   his proper common lute at 72cm.

   The likely pitch (discussed in the paper) is determind by the
   instrument's string length and tensile strength of gut.

   MH


   --- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy 
   wrote:

 From: Christopher Pearcy 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 8:29

  Dear all
  If anyone has a copy of the v. Radolt lute concerti, could you tell
   me
  what are the (nominal) pitches of his 3 lutes in relation to the
   string
  parts. I'm looking at alternative pitching for my small Frei - and
   this
  may give me additional data to add to breaking index and pitch
  standards.
  Thanks in anticipation.
  Chris
  --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: v Radolt's lutes again

[Martyn Hodgson]

   See the paper by Bill Samson and myself (FoMRHI Comm 737 - available
   from the FoMRHI archives) about Von Radolt's instructions.

   Regarding the sizes of the lutes, the instructions suggest various
   sizes of 11 course lutes lute ranging from approx 54cm string length
   (Radolt's very small lute)  through a middle sized lute around 61 cm to
   his proper common lute at 72cm.

   The likely pitch (discussed in the paper) is determind by the
   instrument's string length and tensile strength of gut.

   MH


   --- On Fri, 23/9/11, Christopher Pearcy 
   wrote:

 From: Christopher Pearcy 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] v Radolt's lutes again
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 8:29

  Dear all
  If anyone has a copy of the v. Radolt lute concerti, could you tell
   me
  what are the (nominal) pitches of his 3 lutes in relation to the
   string
  parts. I'm looking at alternative pitching for my small Frei - and
   this
  may give me additional data to add to breaking index and pitch
  standards.
  Thanks in anticipation.
  Chris
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References

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: La belle / O stelle homicide

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Mathias,

   When you say the lute was tuned in A (Old tuning), I think you may mean
   that it looks to be so if we take the vocal part staff notation as
   indicating a particular fixed pitch. There's enough evidence to suppose
   that in many domestic contexts the voice accomodated to the lute rather
   than having various sizes of instrument always to hand.

   MH
   --- On Wed, 24/8/11, Mathias RAP:sel 
   wrote:

 From: Mathias RAP:sel 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: La belle / O stelle homicide
 To: "baroque-lute mailing-list" 
 Date: Wednesday, 24 August, 2011, 11:18

   Est-ce l'ordonance des Cieux (Moulinie, book 4, 1633, fol. 9v-10) was
   covered by Albert in his Arien, vol. 3, 1640, #15 (So ist es denn des
   Himmels Will). Albert's friend Andreas Adersbach, member of the
   KAP:nigsberg
   Poetic Society, metamorphosed the two French stanzas of Moulinie's book
   into
   three German stanzas, adding a Latin headline that reads Nil vincula
   solvit
   Amoris (Nothing bursts the bonds of Love). The German lyrics are way
   more
   drastic than the French, btw. Well, us swashbuckling Germans ...
   Moulinie offers the voice part in staff notation and the lute part in
   tablature (an 8c lute willdo for this one). He had his lute tuned in A,
   obviously (a'-e'-b-g-d-A). Albert offers both voice and bass parts in
   staff
   notation. He takes over Moulinie's bass literally, yet the bass only,
   not
   the whole lute part, and renders it as single-line figured bass.
   Mathias
   > -UrsprA 1/4ngliche Nachricht-
   > Von: Mathias RAP:sel [mailto:[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
   > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. August 2011 11:37
   > An: baroque-lute mailing-list ([2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu)
   > Betreff: Re: La belle / O stelle homicide
   >
   > Dear Grzegorz,
   >
   > Thank you for this bulk of information and for focusing on the king's
   brother, a
   > refined person forced into politics. Moulinie served the duke as from
   1628,
   > that's three years before the queen, Gaston's mother and E.
   Gaultier's
   employer,
   > was banned and Gaultier retired. So, Moulinie and Gaultier possibly
   met on
   > grounds of profession.
   >
   > Airs de court is another topic in this respect. O stelle homicide has
   Italian lyrics,
   > whereas La belle homicide is explained as a French subject in the
   RhA(c)torique.
   > Now, Moulinie's 1624 book of airs de court contains airs of French,
   Italian,
   > Spanish language, and even one air in the dialect of Gascogne (if I
   got it
   right).
   > Apparently, the crowds in the French salons were not at all
   nationalistic.
   >
   > Perhaps tunes with this initial motive  simply were in the air of the
   salons, and
   > both Moulinie and Gaultier grabbed and accommodated it. Perhaps one
   > composer took over from the other and parodied it, using a different
   language
   > for the sake of conspicuousness.
   >
   > Mathias
   >
   >
   > > -UrsprA 1/4ngliche Nachricht-
   > > Von: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
   > > Auftrag von Grzegorz Joachimiak
   > > Gesendet: Montag, 22. August 2011 23:26
   > > An: Mathias RAP:sel
   > > Cc: baroque-lute mailing-list
   > > Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Odp: La belle / O stelle homicide
   > >
   > > Hello Mathias,
   > >
   > > there is very interesting what did you notice. I will try tell
   something...
   > >
   > > Duke of Orleans liked among other things airs a boire (drinking
   > > songs). We could find eight airs for lute tablature by Moulinie in
   his
   > > third book of airs de cour from 1629. But airs a boire were not
   only
   > > tavern music. This music was pleasant also for salon's people.
   > >
   > > Another airs called "petits Airs, fort jolis & fort divertissans"
   we
   > > could also called songs in the metres and binary forms of social
   dances.
   So,
   > they sang e.g.
   > > gavottes, sarabandes, menuets etc. as a short nice pieces.
   Something
   > > about that wrote B. de Bacilly in "L'art de bien chanter, augnente
   > > d'un discours qui sert de response a la critique de ce traite"
   (Paris
   1679, repr.
   > Geneva 1993).
   > >
   > > These all songs reinforced the common culture of French courtiers
   in
   > > which both the women and men of the salon wanted to belong one of
   this
   > group.
   > > So, if "La Belle Homicide" by E. Gaultier could be Courante and "O
   > > stelle homicide" by Etienne Moulinie is a song, maybe this melody
   was
   known
   > by both?
   > > But who did it the first? I have no idea.
   > >
   > > There are only my assumption and I am not sure is there proper
   > > explanation of connection between Ennemond Gaultier and Etienne
   > > Moulinie. But airs by Moulinie are very interesting because their
   show
   > > a male conviviality of close society of Duke. Moulinie's airs were
   > > influenced not only by milieu of Duke but also by Spanish and

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well, dear Howard, I think we know your own view from much earlier
   exchanges. Is it that any size of theorbo would have had the top two
   courses an octave down since there was a wide range of Church pitches
   at the time? Thus somehow justifying modern theorboes in A with a
   string length in the mid 70s having both course one and two an octave
   down - even at A415 or A440 ..

   Or perhaps I misunderstood you - I'm sure you'll tell me and give the
   evidence if so.

   MH
   PS  Did the film contain any theorbos fitting to its title?

   -- On Thu, 11/8/11, howard posner  wrote:

 From: howard posner 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
 To: "Lute Dmth" , "baroque Lutelist"
 
 Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 15:39

   On Aug 11, 2011, at 6:04 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >  this
   >   matter of theorbo sizes still seems to be an area of
   misunderstanding.
   True, but we like you anyway.
   BTW, I recently saw "Toy Story 3" with my family, and heartily
   recommend it.
   --
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   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Taco,
   Thank you for this: I hope you will not mind me continuing since this
   matter of theorbo sizes still seems to be an area of misunderstanding.
   Incidentally, I'd be interested to know what I said which is 'not very
   logical' as you put it.
   .
   I raised the question of the tiorbino since you seemed to mention it as
   an example of a small theorbo which had both upper courses at the lower
   octave without seeming to realise that the tiorbino is tuned an octave
   higher than the theorbo thus obliging both upper courses to be lowered
   the octave.

   The small French theorbo developed for solo pieces (in D tuning - re
   Talbot for 'les pieces') is tuned a fourth higher than the common A
   theorbo tuning - are you recommending that all these small theorboes
   (say, around 76cm fingered string length) should be tuned like this
   rather than in a nominal A (or G) with just the first course an octave
   down?

   Regarding solo theorbo music: Mathias Roesel has quite rightly already
   pointed out that the de Saizeny Ms requires a theorbo in nominal A; as
   does, I might also add, the fine Ms Paris BN B1575 containing 101
   folios of music for solo theorbo. Thus a theorbo in nominal D, as
   you seem to advocate, isn't specified for this solo music.
   MH

   From: Taco Walstra 
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
   To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "'baroque Lutelist'"
   
   Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 12:17

   On 08/11/2011 12:24 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >
   >
   > There are non-English sources which describe theorbos with only
   the
   > first course an octave down - see the late Bob Spencer's paper in
   Early
   > Music: still probably the best summary of the instrument and its
   > tuning.
   Yes I know that excellent article. But you were recommending something
   which is not very logical for somebody who starts playing theorbo and
   only solomusic...
   >
   > The tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the tiorba so
   naturally the
   > string stress on the second course would exceed breaking stress
   if not
   > lowered the octave.
   Perhaps to be a bit more clear: I didn't recommend tuning up the second
   course.
   >
   > What/where are these small theorbos tuned in Dm? Or are you
   thinking
   > that mid/late 18th century 13 course Dm lutes with an extension
   for 5
   > doubled bass courses should be called theorbos?
   true. I should have written d instead of dm. Dm normally gives the
   impression that a baroque lute tuning is meant, but that's something
   different. I was speaking on a theorbe des pieces which was tuned a
   quarter higher than his big brother and of course 2 reentrant strings.
   taco

From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
To: "Taco Walstra" <[2]wals...@science.uva.nl>
Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 11:16
  There are non-English sources which describe theorbos with only the
  first course an octave down - see the late Bob Spencer's paper in
   Early
  Music: still probably the best summary of the instrument and its
  tuning.
  The tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the tiorba so naturally
   the
  string stress on the second course would exceed breaking stress if
   not
  lowered the octave.
  What/where are these small theorbos tuned in Dm? Or are you thinking
  that mid/late 18th century 13 course Dm lutes with an extension for
   5
  doubled bass courses should be called theorbos?
  I presume a theorbo is generally acquired to play continuo. However
   if
  you only intend to play the relatively few solos extant then a small
  theorbo of this size with both top courses an octave down would
   indeed
  be following a known historical practise (Talbot Ms 'pour pieces')
   but,
  of course, in this case it would be pitched a fourth higher (re
   Talbot)
  in a nominal d - not the usual A.
   MH

From: Taco Walstra <[3]wals...@science.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "lute net"
<[5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 8:57
  Playing close to the bridge is a story in itself. It's not proved
   that
  it was common practice on theorbo. It's logical however, but playing
  with nails was perhaps also used, or both.
  What you call "historical practice... only lower the first
   course..."
  was the tuning used on an english theorbo, not the "standard"
   theorbo.
  "Historical practice" was tuning small 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
 To: "Taco Walstra" 
 Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 11:16


   There are non-English sources which describe theorbos with only the
   first course an octave down - see the late Bob Spencer's paper in Early
   Music: still probably the best summary of the instrument and its
   tuning.

   The tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the tiorba so naturally the
   string stress on the second course would exceed breaking stress if not
   lowered the octave.

   What/where are these small theorbos tuned in Dm? Or are you thinking
   that mid/late 18th century 13 course Dm lutes with an extension for 5
   doubled bass courses should be called theorbos?

   I presume a theorbo is generally acquired to play continuo. However if
   you only intend to play the relatively few solos extant then a small
   theorbo of this size with both top courses an octave down would indeed
   be following a known historical practise (Talbot Ms 'pour pieces') but,
   of course, in this case it would be pitched a fourth higher (re Talbot)
   in a nominal d - not the usual A.

MH

   --- On Thu, 11/8/11, Taco Walstra  wrote:

 From: Taco Walstra 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "lute net"
 
 Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 8:57

   Playing close to the bridge is a story in itself. It's not proved that
   it was common practice on theorbo. It's logical however, but playing
   with nails was perhaps also used, or both.
   What you call "historical practice... only lower the first course..."
   was the tuning used on an english theorbo, not the "standard" theorbo.
   "Historical practice" was tuning small theorbos in dm, although even
   this is not very certain (it's mostly based on a few examples, like the
   pieces by visee which exist in staff notation and theorbo tablature).
   Even the small tiorbino usied in the italian Castaldi music has the 2
   top course reentrant, if I remember well.
   But what is the problem with the second course? As you can see in the
   list by David he uses 0.78 mm. that's not 0.36 or whatever. with
   archlutes in G you encounter such problems, not theorbos.
   If you use a theorbo only for continuo playing, your advice can be a
   good idea, but I assume that David Smith will surely like to play Visee
   and other beautiful solomusic, which is problematic when you do this.
   Taco

   On 08/11/2011 09:30 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >
   >
   > Much depends on your technique and whether you play close to the
   bridge (as the Old Ones generally seemed to have done) or up to the
   rose.  However whatever tension you decide upon, with such a small
   instrument why don't you follow historical practice and only lower the
   first  course an octave? The stress of the second course at such a
   short
   string length (at , say, A 415) is well below breaking stress.
   > MH

   --


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Much depends on your technique and whether you play close to the bridge
   (as the Old Ones generally seemed to have done) or up to the rose.
   However whatever tension you decide upon, with such a small instrument
   why don't you follow historical practice and only lower the first
   course an octave? The stress of the second course at such a short
   string length (at , say, A 415) is well below breaking stress.

   MH
   --- On Wed, 10/8/11, David Smith  wrote:

 From: David Smith 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Lute Strings for theorbo
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 10 August, 2011, 18:22

  Greetings,
  I have a Barber and Harris Lesser French Theorbo with 14 strings
   (7x1
  and 7x1) with lengths of 760mm and 1400mm. The 7 diapasons are gut
   but
  the other are carbon fiber and silver wrapped. I bought the
   instrument
  used and would like to convert to all gut.
  I have looked at Arto's string calculator and am stumped as to what
   I
  should use for the tension on the strings. The I am not sure what
   the
  current set of gut diapasons are either.
  So a couple of questions:
  1.   Should I replace all the strings in order to get the
   correct
  balance on the instrument?
  2.   What tension for the strings should I be looking for?
  3.   Is the best approach to just go to Aquila or Gamut and ask
  them to figure it out?
  I would appreciate any guidance I can get. I have read through some
   of
  the other discussions but have not come to enough understanding to
   know
  how to proceed.
  Thank you in advance.
  Regards
  David
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References

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   If my memory isn't playing me false and the instrument is a single neck
   it might indeed rule out Weiss since, as you suggest, there's no record
   of him being associated with the gallichon/mandora.  It'll take me time
   to dig out the pic which is buried somewhere in what passes for my
   filing 'system' - but I will try. As I recall, the representation I'm
   thinking of is quite small so details like pegs were not shown

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop  wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L.
 Weiss?
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
 Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:56

   Interesting point, Martyn. I don't have the picture to hand. How many
   strings or tuning pegs are shown? I still think the four-string
   gallichon of circa 90cms length would make a great baroque bass
   instrument. It's not an instrument I've ever seen associated with
   Weiss, but that means little.
   Rob
   On 11 July 2011 09:52, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   wrote:


   Good point Rob,  but, if we're thinking of one of the pictures, I
   recall it seems to show a large lute with a single neck. Whilst this
   could, of course, be the engraver's own fancy it might suggest the
   performer is playing a gallichon (large continuo
   type)..

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com>
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
 To: [4]mar...@gmlutz.de
 Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:33

  I am well out of my depth here, so apologies, but are there not also
   a
  couple of paintings or engravings which might show Weiss at work?
   One
  is an opera setting, with a possible Weiss in the orchestral pit?
   The
  other is a small ensemble gathering, with a possible Weiss playing a
  long German theorbo (i.e. not a theorbo-lute)? Not exactly
   'portraits',
  but worth mentioning, maybe?
  Rob MacKillop
  --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robmackil...@gmail.com
   3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robmackil...@gmail.com
   4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@gmlutz.de
   5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Good point Rob,  but, if we're thinking of one of the pictures, I
   recall it seems to show a large lute with a single neck. Whilst this
   could, of course, be the engraver's own fancy it might suggest the
   performer is playing a gallichon (large continuo
   type)..

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop  wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
 To: mar...@gmlutz.de
 Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
 Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:33

  I am well out of my depth here, so apologies, but are there not also
   a
  couple of paintings or engravings which might show Weiss at work?
   One
  is an opera setting, with a possible Weiss in the orchestral pit?
   The
  other is a small ensemble gathering, with a possible Weiss playing a
  long German theorbo (i.e. not a theorbo-lute)? Not exactly
   'portraits',
  but worth mentioning, maybe?
  Rob MacKillop
  --
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References

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss concerto

[Martyn Hodgson]

Indeed, this is what I was really getting at - sorry, I was trying to
   be ironic but clearly not obviously enough since it was missable!

   Recording engineers (or whoever places microphones) really do have a
   lot to answer for: lutes sounding like Bechstein grands in concertos;
   theorbos dominating strings and choruses etc. But in truth some players
   must also share in the blame:  having an understandable wish to be
   clearly heard in tuttis but without considering whether such balance is
   possible without amplification - not to mention what the 'Old Ones'
   might have expected to hear...

   MH


   --- On Sat, 2/7/11, David van Ooijen  wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss concerto
 To: "baroque lute list" 
 Date: Saturday, 2 July, 2011, 8:38

   On 2 July 2011 09:07, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   wrote:
   >   I'm particularly impressed how the basses of the lute overshadow
   the
   >   cello in the tuttis...
   What we see is not what we hear, if you ask me. It feels like they're
   playbacking to a prerecorded track. Simple trick: listen to the sound
   and image where your ears have to be to get this balance. Closer to
   the lute than to the violins, and this is not about volume but about
   how direct the sound is iaw the balance between close mics and room
   mics.
   But lovely playing, obviously, and great setting with the lutenist
   standing in front. Reaching for those low fretted basses gave him a
   bit of a rock star posture.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
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References

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   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss concerto

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I'm particularly impressed how the basses of the lute overshadow the
   cello in the tuttis...

   MH
   --- On Sat, 2/7/11, Ed Durbrow  wrote:

 From: Ed Durbrow 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss concerto
 To: "Daniel Shoskes" , "baroque lute list"
 
 Date: Saturday, 2 July, 2011, 2:55

  There are some performers in command of their music! Very nice. The
  only thing I didn't like was the pixelation of the strings on my
   video
  screen.
  On Jul 2, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
  Lucas Harris and Taffelmusik:
  [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOAzSVXm4-E
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  Ed Durbrow
  Saitama, Japan
  [2][3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
  [3][4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
  --
   References
  1. [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOAzSVXm4-E
  2. [6]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
  3. [7]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOAzSVXm4-E
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
   4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOAzSVXm4-E
   6. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
   7. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear David,

   I think 'orchestral' pitch can be very misleading in relation to the
   pitching of lutes in mid/late 17th century France: there is really very
   little evidence for the use of lutes with other instruments in France
   throughout this period and thus no need to assume any conformity.

   Incidentally, 68 +/- 2cm is a range of 66 to 70cm.

   MH




   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, David R  wrote:

 From: David R 
 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 18:22

   On May 31, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   The question was:  what size of lute would a French lutenist around
   1670 have generally expected?  The question was not, is it possible to
   play the music on a significantly larger lute? (clearly, as I wrote in
   Lute News 94  - it is);  or even, what size of lute would one want
   to use now if one wished for a 'darker' (lower pitched) sound and were
   not interested in the size the Old Ones generally expected?

   Dear Martyn,
   Yes, I did understand the question.
   I'm not arguing against the evidence you present (goodness knows, I
   don't know enough to do that).  But then. okay, given a common string
   length of around 68-70 cm, doesn't that also assume a common pitch
   tuning of, say, A=415?  I think that's what I find difficult to accept,
   in view of the wide variety of pitches other instruments, including
   organs and harpsichords, were tuned to.
   Why else, for example, would flutes have come with as many as four or
   five different-length middle joints, if not to accomodate the wide
   pitch variety to be found on the general musical scene?  Obviously,
   lutes can't accomodate any type of "corps de rechange," the way flutes
   can, but wouldn't lutenists have desired that pitch variety too?;  and
   the only way to get that would have been to play lutes of many
   different sizes.  I dunno...just a thought.
   DR

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear David,

   The question was:  what size of lute would a French lutenist around
   1670 have generally expected?  The question was not, is it possible to
   play the music on a significantly larger lute? (clearly, as I wrote in
   Lute News 94  - it is);  or even, what size of lute would one want
   to use now if one wished for a 'darker' (lower pitched) sound and were
   not interested in the size the Old Ones generally expected?

   My extended letter in Lute News contains a summary of the sources of
   information which I mentioned below. The size range, 68 +/- 2 cm,
   emerges from this historical evidence.

   Of course, the 11 course continued to be played well into the 18th
   century, but not so much in France, and larger instruments certainly
   seem to have been widely used in this period.  But not exclusively: eg
   Von Radolt's instructions for various sizes of 11 course lutes lute
   ranging from approx 54cm string length (his very small lute)  through a
   middle lute around 61 cm to his proper common lute at 72cm (See FOMRHI
   Comm 737).

   MH
   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, David R  wrote:

 From: David R 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
     To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 16:51

   On May 31, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >Also see my correspondance with Bailes in recent issues of Lute
   News on
   >the sizes of French lutes c.1670: the evidence (iconography, early
   >measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments)
   >indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what
   these
   >particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger
   >instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for
   which
   >Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute
   with a
   >string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around
   >1670,  he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points
   out in
   >his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size
   of
   >the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   >performance of 17th century French lute music'.
   The iconography shows some pretty big lutes!
   Is there really no evidence at all that the French played lutes of
   sizes other than +/- 68 cm?  And if so, why that particular size?  We
   know they played solo and ensemble music on theorbos of all sizes and
   stringings.  Wouldn't they have been going for the darker, more
   sustained sound of a larger lute?
   DavidR
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,

   Why should an instrument with a longer string length work 'better' with
   gut?

   Any advantage gained by the strings being longer is precisely offset by
   having to tune the whole instrument lower. If we follow the general
   rule that the stress on the highest string is the same whatever lute
   you are using (ie near the breaking stress) then the stress on the
   basses of the large and the smaller lute will be exactly the same and
   the lutes will exhibit the same degree of dullness/brightness in the
   bass.

   Of course, if one ignores the early sources and tunes a small lute at
   the same nominal pitch as a large lute (you suggest A415(?)) then
   naturally the small lute will sound duller.

   Also see my correspondance with Bailes in recent issues of Lute News on
   the sizes of French lutes c.1670: the evidence (iconography, early
   measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments)
   indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these
   particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger
   instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which
   Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a
   string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around
   1670,  he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in
   his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of
   the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   performance of 17th century French lute music'.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04

   Dear Arto
The question might be what the characteristics are that you
   are looking
   for
   in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire,
   and what
   type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses),
   low
   tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All
   this might
   determine the best makers for you to consider.
   Model and bass string type:
   The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly
   by the
   type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is
   sometimes
   felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice
   (Vienna
   Frei)
   if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped
   basses
   (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses.
   If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer
   string
   length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed
   Tieffenbrucher,
   Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this
   mainly on
   Burwell,
   possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de
   Dieux
   manuscript.
   Sustain and clarity:
   Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the
   ideal
   lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having
   the two
   almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: <> Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.
   Anthony Bailes suggests that "sustain" was so essential to the French
   musicians
   that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna
   lutes.
   "The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments
   have more
   sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This
   is
   particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds
   on
   longer than it actually does." (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)
   In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
   interpretation
   of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length,
   adopting a
   76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage
   lute
   affords.
   However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we
   approach that
   French ideal of sustain and clarity?
   I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to
   71), such as
   that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the
   use of
   loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and
   sustain,
   while maintaining a good balance between registers.
   A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much
   bass for
   the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically
   accurate) for
   later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh,
   etc) giving
   good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.
   I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb
   with
   loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if
   it might
   not be qui

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Arthur,

   You write:'<> Part, if not most of the problems here, must be
   laid to the
  feet of two authors of dictionary articles on the Saint-Luc family.
   In
  MGG (1963 issue) and New Grove (1970 edition) Jacques is mentioned,
   but
  all the Saint-Luc works are attributed to one Laurent Jacques
   Alexandre
  de Saint-Luc. '

   Indeed, as already mentioned,  the principal question is whether a
   Jacques de Saint-Luc who was borne in 1616 was the author of works
   composed in the first couple of decades of the 18th century in the
   newly fashionable style; this was the reason for my original query.
   From the responses I've received both through this forum and privately
   it seems no satisfactory explanation is forthcoming but the weight of
   opinion seems to favour the view that the extant works in the two large
   MSs are by one of the elder S-L's two sons: the eldest Jacques
   Alexandre born 1663 and Laurent  born 1669. Certainly their dates fit
   much better with the style of the surviving music.My money is on
   Jacques Alexandre since it seems quite possible that the Alexandre part
   might have been dropped thus resulting in confusion between him and his
   father even by contemporaries.

   But I also think it's wrong to blame just the MGG and New Grove: some
   modern confusion may stem from things like the notes to Stephen Stubb's
   CD of S-L's lute music (by Phillipe Vendrix) which states that the
   elder S-L was composing (and traversing Europe) into his 90s. However,
   like you I look forward to more up to date research which may appear in
   the complete edition (alas - I presume not a facsimile edition
   but Corpus des luthistes franc rather old fashioned (nowadays) house
   style). Publication does not seem imminent.

   rgds

   Martyn


   --- On Fri, 25/3/11, A. J. Ness  wrote:

 From: A. J. Ness 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
 To: "Christopher Wilke" , "Baroque Lute List"
 
 Date: Friday, 25 March, 2011, 0:18

  I think Christopher makes some interesting points.  I'll comment
   below.
  - Original Message -
  From: "Christopher Wilke" <[1][1]chriswi...@yahoo.com>
  To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Baroque
   lute
  Dmth" <[3][3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Edward Martin"
  <[4][4]e...@gamutstrings.com>
  Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:42 AM
  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
  > Ed,
  >
  > --- On Wed, 3/23/11, Edward Martin <[5][5]e...@gamutstrings.com>
   wrote:
  >
  >> Dufaut and Mouton both played in 'Austria' and were far
  >> greater composers
  >> and, probably, players. I suspect that J Gallot in his
  >> 'long journey abroad'
  >> (see the intro to the Gallot edition) also visited Vienna.
  >> As far as I know
  >> St Luc caused a stir at a wedding in Berlin in 1700, and
  >> there are one or
  >> two other references, but nothing to suggest he was as
  >> highly-respected as
  >> any of these three.
  >>
  >
  > St. Luc was very highly regarded and presumably influential.
   Baron
  doesn't have much good to say about Franco composers with the
   singular
  exception of St. Luc.  In fact, he specifically denigrates the
   "other
  three" you mention.  In 'Study of the Lute' of 1727, Baron says,
  >
  > "In regard to the lute, the French have not accomplished much in
  particular... Mouton and Dufaut followed their own genius and
   neglected
  the cantabile element.  Gallot gave his pieces such strange names
   that
  one must ponder hard how they connect with the music..."
  >
  > "Saint-Luc [before which translator Douglas Alton Smith has
  editorially inserted the first name 'Jacques de' in brackets] is one
   of
  the best, for he always allows something lyrical to flow into his
  pieces..."
  <>And of course a composer in those days would alter the style
   of
  his music to suit the tastes of his Viennese patrons, in this case
  Eugene of Savoy, and possibly Count Lobkowitz.  Jacques (b. 1616)
   was a
  lutenist since we have his portrait with lute in hand.
  > Douglas Alton Smith includes a quote from "Herr von Besser" about
   the
  wedding in 1700 in a footnote:
  <> The footnote is Baron's.
  > "And because it just then happened that the splendid French
   theorbist
  and lutenist Monsieur de St. Luc was passing through Berlin on his
   way
  to Vienna, he was de

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you Mathias.

   Yes, the hand of these notes (on Wien 1586) is in the old fashioned
   German longhand cursive script Kurrentschrift and there's even an
   English quote at the bottom (ending ' - to hell he goes'!) followed by
   what I take to be the initials of whoever added Walther's (1732 )
   notes:  am. a.  (?)

   The notes also refer to Roger's Amsterdam publication (in particular
   mentioning the arrangements are for flote or Hautbois with Basse)
   amongst other things . Have you a translation (into English) of these?
- if so I'd be grateful for a copy.  I guess these notes could have
   been added anytime from the late 19th century up to the early 20th
   when, as I understand, Kurrentschrift  was superseded by something
   called Sutterlin. Do we know when this closer to modern hand became
   general?

   MH
   --- On Thu, 24/3/11, mathias.roe...@t-online.de
wrote:

 From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de
 Saint-Luc
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 9:00

  > The elder may, of course, have= lived to a ripe old age but not, I
  > suspect, as a practicising m= usician: one modern note I've seen
   has
  him
  > travelling to Berlin = in 1700 (aged 84) to take part in the
   marriage
  of
  > Princess Louis= e of Brandenburg and Prince Frederick of
  Hesse-Cassel!
  The ms. in Vienna has notes in German kurrentschrift on the first
   page,
  = excerpts from Walther's lexicon, or so I seem to remember. The gig
   in
  Berli= n is mentioned there.
  Mathias
  > MH
  > --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Edward Martin  wrote:
  > From: Edward Martin <[1]e...@gamutstrings.com><= br /> > Subject:
  [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
  &g= t; To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Baroque
   lute
  Dm= th"
  > <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  > Date: Wedne= sday, 23 March, 2011, 22:29
  >
  > Dear Martyn and all,
  > I had some correspondence with Tim Crawford 15 years ago, and I
   was=
  > asking him about the notes written on Stephen Stubbs' CD of Sai=
   nt
  Luc.
  > Here are copies of this correspondence. No He did not = live that
  > long, as there were 2 Saint Luc's. Here is what Tim w= rote, 15
   years
  > ago:
  > ><<< de St Luc's > >son, Laurent (again, this is from memory). The
   music
  is *obvi= ously*
  > from a
  > >different generation than the 2 or = 3 pieces by JdeSL that
   survive;
  it
  > was
  > >probably c= omposed in the early 18th century, and is in the
  > proto-galant
  > >style we associate with de Visee, Losy and others rather than<=
   br
  /> > Gaultier,
  > >Pinel, Dufaut etc who were JdeSL's cont= emporaries.>>>>>
  > >
  > >Dear Tim,
  > >
  > > I would not challenge your knowledge of this = - I am a
   performer,
  not
  > a
  > >scholar in these areas.= Yes, the style does seem later to me, as
  > well. I
  > &g= t;was merely quoting what the liner notes said - they were
  written by
  = > Manuel
  > >Couvreur and Philippe Vendrix, translated by Ce= lia Skrine.
  Included
  > in the
  > >notes, on page 9, is= the following:
  > >
  > > "On 15 June, 1658, in the = Cathedral of Sainte-Gudule in
   Brussels,
  > >Saint-Luc married Is= abelle de Lagrenee, possibly a descendant
   of
  > Pierre
  > &= gt;Lagrenee, an oboist and violinist in the court band of King
  Henri IV
  > of
  > >France. He had several children by her including= two sons,
  > >Jacques-Alexandre, baptised at Sainte-Gudule on J= une 8, 1663,
   and
  > Laurent,
  > >baptised on 10 August 1= 669, but , contrary to what most
  musicologists
  > claim,
  >= >there is no justification for supposing that they undertook any
  kind > of
  > >musical activity. The last documented evidence= of the presence
   of
  > Saint-Luc
  > >and his family in B= russels dates from 14 August 1684."
  > >
  > >On page = 11, it states," Amongst the pieces with titles which
  > contribute = to a
  > >picture of the composers last years, the latest date is= one that
  > >commemorates the capture of Lille in 1708. Saint-= Luc was by
   then
  92
  > years
  > >old and must have died s= hortly afterwards. Certainly there is
   no
  > tra

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you Ed and Mathias,

   I certainly agree with Tim that, on the basis of style, the extant
   works in the large Prague MSs and the Amsterdam publication are
   unlikely to have been composed by the elder Saint-Luc born in 1616. But
   I don't know why he proposed that they were the work of Jacques'
   younger son, Laurent, rather than Jacques-Alexandre (born 1663) - I'll
   ask him. It's certainly an area that needs much more scholarly digging
   rather than simple assertion.

   The elder may, of course, have lived to a ripe old age but not, I
   suspect, as a practicising musician: one modern note I've seen has him
   travelling to Berlin in 1700 (aged 84) to take part in the marriage of
   Princess Louise of Brandenburg and Prince Frederick of Hesse-Cassel!

   MH
   --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Edward Martin  wrote:

 From: Edward Martin 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "Baroque lute
 Dmth" 
 Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 22:29

   Dear Martyn and all,
   I had some correspondence with Tim Crawford 15 years ago, and I was
   asking him about the notes written on Stephen Stubbs' CD of Saint
   Luc.  Here are copies of this correspondence.  No He did not live
   that long, as there were 2 Saint Luc's.  Here is what Tim wrote, 15
   years ago:
   ><<<son, Laurent (again, this is from memory). The music is *obviously*
   from a
   >different generation than the 2 or 3 pieces by JdeSL that survive; it
   was
   >probably composed in the early 18th century, and is in the
   proto-galant
   >style we associate with de Visee, Losy and others rather than
   Gaultier,
   >Pinel, Dufaut etc who were JdeSL's contemporaries.>>>>>
   >
   >Dear Tim,
   >
   > I would not challenge your knowledge of this - I am a performer, not
   a
   >scholar in these areas. Yes, the style does seem later to me, as
   well.  I
   >was merely quoting what the liner notes said - they were written by
   Manuel
   >Couvreur and Philippe Vendrix, translated by Celia Skrine.  Included
   in the
   >notes, on page 9, is the following:
   >
   >  "On 15 June, 1658, in the Cathedral of Sainte-Gudule in Brussels,
   >Saint-Luc married Isabelle de Lagrenee, possibly a descendant of
   Pierre
   >Lagrenee, an oboist and violinist in the court band of King Henri IV
   of
   >France.  He had several children by her including two sons,
   >Jacques-Alexandre, baptised at Sainte-Gudule on June 8, 1663, and
   Laurent,
   >baptised on 10 August 1669, but , contrary to what most musicologists
   claim,
   >there is no justification for supposing that they undertook any kind
   of
   >musical activity.  The last documented evidence of the presence of
   Saint-Luc
   >and his family in Brussels dates from 14 August 1684."
   >
   >On page 11, it states," Amongst the pieces with titles which
   contribute to a
   >picture of the composers last years, the latest date is one that
   >commemorates the capture of Lille in 1708.  Saint-Luc was by then 92
   years
   >old and must have died shortly afterwards.  Certainly there is no
   trace of
   >any later work"
   >
   >I agree with you Tim  - 92 years old is incredible, for that century!
   >
   >The notes also state that there are 2 main sources for his solo lute
   works,
   >in carefully copied manuscripts:
   >
   >ms.no. S.m. 1586 in the Austrian National Library at Vienna, and
   >
   >ms.no. X.L.b.210 in the library of Prague University.
   >
   >The last paragraph, page 12, states:
   >
   >"To Jacques de Saint-Luc undoubtedly belongs the credit for
   transmitting the
   >heritage of French lute music to a new generation of Viennese
   lutenists, the
   >last exponents of an instrument which was destined soon to disappear
   from
   >the musical scene."
   >
   Thanks for passing this on. I am *extremely* skeptical that the St Luc
   of
   these MSS (and the several more in the same hand which have parts for
   violin
   and bass) is the same as the well-documented Jacques (about whom a book
   was
   written early this century). There is *no hint* of music in an earlier
   style
   in the MSS.
   As for the final paragraph, I couldn't disagree more with the authors.
   If
   they believe that the Viennese lutenists were "the last exponents of an
   instrument which was destined soon to disappear from the musical
   scene," then
   they either don't regard Weiss as a significant figure, or are
   pig-ignorant.
   Dufaut and Mouton both played in 'Austria' and were far greater
   composers
   and, probably, players. I suspect that J Gallot in his 'long journey
   abroad'
   (see the intro to the Gallot edition) also visited Vienna. A

[BAROQUE-LUTE] PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc

[Martyn Hodgson]

By chance I've just looked for any recorded music of Saint-Luc and saw
   that there's a CD by a  'Jacques-Alexandre de Saint Luc' with
   dates given as 1663 - c.1715.  I have no knowledge of the source of
   this information but it would certainly fit with the speculation of two
   individuals with the same, or similar,names. The players are Jacques
   Vandeville oboe and Daniel Fournier lute (and theorbo!).

   MH
   --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Martyn Hodgson  wrote:

 From: Martyn Hodgson 
 Subject: Jacques de Saint-Luc
 To: "Baroque lute Dmth" 
 Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 15:47


   The dates of this composer are generally given as 1616 - 1710 which
   seems a phenomenal life span for the time and even more so when his
   extant lute works seem to be in the style of the early decades of the
   18th century (even down to fashionable
   doubling of the top and bottom line by strings) which would have made
   him well into his 90s when these works were composed... His
   compositional style also seems much closer to Austro-germanic composers
   like Logy, von Radolt, Hintherleithner et al who flourished around the
   turn of the century being predominantly in a polarised treble and bass
   manner.

   I can find little about this shadowy figure but am being drawn to the
   speculation that there may have been two different composers  with the
   same name (father and son/nephew perhaps). Can anybody shed further
   light?  Perhaps I've missed a paper?

   One clue ought to be the names of pieces such as 'La Prise de
   Barcellonne', which might suggest a date of 1705 or 1714 but could be
   some earlier investment, or 'Le defaittes des Francois par les Allemand
   Devant Turin' which suggests 1703. Again I find it hard to believe that
   the same San Luc was composing such 'modern' programmatic music at such
   a ripe old age.

   MH

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Jacques de Saint-Luc

[Martyn Hodgson]

   The dates of this composer are generally given as 1616 - 1710 which
   seems a phenomenal life span for the time and even more so when his
   extant lute works seem to be in the style of the early decades of the
   18th century (even down to fashionable
   doubling of the top and bottom line by strings) which would have made
   him well into his 90s when these works were composed... His
   compositional style also seems much closer to Austro-germanic composers
   like Logy, von Radolt, Hintherleithner et al who flourished around the
   turn of the century being predominantly in a polarised treble and bass
   manner.

   I can find little about this shadowy figure but am being drawn to the
   speculation that there may have been two different composers  with the
   same name (father and son/nephew perhaps). Can anybody shed further
   light?  Perhaps I've missed a paper?

   One clue ought to be the names of pieces such as 'La Prise de
   Barcellonne', which might suggest a date of 1705 or 1714 but could be
   some earlier investment, or 'Le defaittes des Francois par les Allemand
   Devant Turin' which suggests 1703. Again I find it hard to believe that
   the same San Luc was composing such 'modern' programmatic music at such
   a ripe old age.

   MH

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Other de Gallots....

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Indeed Monica.

   Do we know if Henri Francois de G was Gallot d'Angleterre or is this
   just my febrile speculation?

   MH
   --- On Sun, 20/3/11, Monica Hall  wrote:

 From: Monica Hall 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Other de Gallots
 To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Cc: "Lutelist" 
 Date: Sunday, 20 March, 2011, 16:59

   According to the title page Ms. Mus.Sch. C.94 was actually copied by
   Gallot's
   "tres humbles et affectionne seruitur Monnier".   The pieces are by at
   least
   two Gallot - Gallot d'Angleterre and Gallot d'Irlande, possibly others.
   Monica
   ----- Original Message -
   From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   To: <[2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Martin Shepherd"
   <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:58 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Other de Gallots
   >
   >   Dear Martin,
   >
   >   The guitar composing de Gallot is Henry FranAS:ois de Gallot who
   wrote
   >   (probably between  1660 and 1670) the large and distinctive Ms now
   in
   >   the Bodleian:  Pieces de guittarre de differendes autheures
   recueillis
   >   par Pieces de guittarre de differendes autheures recueillis par
   Henry
   >   FranAS:ois de Gallot (Oxford, Bodleian Library, Ms. Mus.Sch. C.94).
   >
   >   Martyn
   >
   >   --- On Sun, 20/3/11, [4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de
   >   <[5]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
   >
   > From: [6]mathias.roe...@t-online.de
   <[7]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Jacques Gallot and Francesco da
   > Milano
   > To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > Date: Sunday, 20 March, 2011, 12:08
   >
   >   Let me try.
   >   Jacques Gallot (I) was brother to Antoine Gallot. Antoine (Gallot
   >   d'Angers) died 1647 in Vilnius, Jacques (I) (Gallot de Paris) died
   >   around 1685 in Paris. Both were called Gallot le vieux.
   >   Jacques Gallot (I) was lute teacher to Sebastien de Brossard (b.
   1654)
   >   in Paris. The Milleran ms. hearkens back to him. He bequeathes
   music by
   >   his brother as well as music by the Gaultiers.  Antoine Gallot's
   >   courante Le Canon (in Milleran) is reflected by a courante  of the
   same
   >   name and model by Denis Gaultier  (Barbe, p 1).
   >   Jacques (II) Gallot, called le jeune, was born around 1640 in Paris
   and
   >   died there around 1700. Boetticher guessed that Jacques (II) was a
   son
   >   to Antoine Gallot. The print "Pieces de Luth Composees sur
   differens
   >   Modes par J. G. Auec les folies d'Espagnes etc" (Paris probably
   1670)
   >   is his work.
   >   So far ...
   >   Mathias
   >   -Original-Nachricht-
   >   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Jacques Gallot and Francesco da Milano
   >   > Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:16:51 +0100
   >   > From: Martin Shepherd <[1][9]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   >   > To: [2][10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >   > Thanks, I'd forgotten that.  Can you help us out by telling us
   >   > something about which is which?  I'm thinking mostly of the
   printed
   >   > book, and the music in the Barbe MS - and it would be interesting
   to
   >   > know if they are by different composers.  Isn't there also guitar
   >   > music, or is that yet another Gallot?
   >   >
   >   > Martin
   >   >
   >   > On 20/03/2011 00:25, Mathias Roesel wrote:
   >   >
   >   > > Erm aEUR| there were two aEUR|
   >   > >
   >   > > Mathias
   >   > >
   >   > >> -UrsprA 1/4ngliche Nachricht-
   >   > >> Von: [3][11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >   [mailto:[4][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   >   > Im >> Auftrag von Martin Shepherd
   >   > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 19. MACURrz 2011 12:41
   >   > >> An: Lute List
   >   > >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Jacques Gallot and Francesco da Milano
   >   > >>
   >   > >>
   >   > >> Yes, I agree!
   >   > >>
   >   > >> Martin
   >   > >>
   >   > >> On 18/03/2011 22:46, wikla wrote:
   >   > >>>  Original Message 
   >   > >>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Jacques Gallot and Francesco da
   Milano
   >   >>>
   >   > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:29:00 +0200
   >   > >>> From: wikla<[5][13]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>
   >   > >>> To: [6][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >   > >>>
   >   > >>> Dear baroque lutenists,
   >   > >>>
   >   > >>> after having check-played through quite a f

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polonaises 'per il Gallichona'

[Martyn Hodgson]

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Further to my last, I thought you both might like to see an example from the 
collection 'Tre Serenata / Per il Gallichona'  Dresden 2701.
 
Mandora/gallichon in guitar interval tuning with 6th course up a minor third 
(ie tone below 5th).
 
If transcribing for the Dm lute I'd suggest you retain the general tessitura by 
transcribing the first course of the mandora as the second of the lute (both at 
d' of course).
 
MH

--- On Sat, 29/1/11, Dale Young  wrote:


From: Dale Young 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polonaises
To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" , "Roman Turovsky" 
, "Dale Young" 
Date: Saturday, 29 January, 2011, 6:19


Some odd pieces in Augsburg. Seems like the Saxons and the Silesians were 
keen on them...Weiss and his students. Friedmann Bach's are the best, 
although decidedly not for lute.
- Original Message - 
From: "Dale Young" 
To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" ; "Roman Turovsky" 

Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:59 AM
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polonaises


> Kropffganss solos and trios , Straube in G,
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Roman Turovsky" 
> To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:25 AM
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] polonaises
>
>
>>A question to the Collective Wisdom:
>>
>> What lute polonaises do we have, aside from Baron, Weiss-Moscow, and 
>> Falkenhagen op.2?
>>
>> RT To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>> -
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11
>>
>
>
>
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11
> 






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Further to my last, I thought you both might like to see an example from 
the collection 'Tre Serenata / Per il Gallichona'  Dresden 2701.
 
Mandora/gallichon in guitar interval tuning with 6th course up a minor 
third (ie tone below 5th).
 
If transcribing for the Dm lute I'd suggest you retain the general 
tessitura by transcribing the first course of the mandora as the second of the 
lute (both at d' of course).
 
MH--- On Sat, 29/1/11, Dale Young 
 wrote:
From: Dale Young 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polonaisesTo: 
"BAROQUE-LUTE" , "Roman Turovsky" 
, "Dale Young" 
Date: Saturday, 29 January, 2011, 6:19
Some odd pieces in Augsburg. 
Seems like the Saxons and the Silesians were keen on them...Weiss and his 
students. Friedmann Bach's are the best, although decidedly not for 
lute.- Original Message - From: "Dale Young" dyoung5...@wowway.com>To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Roman 
Turovsky" r.turov...@verizon.net>Sent: Saturday, 
January 29, 2011 12:59 AMSubject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 
polonaises> Kropffganss solos and trios , Straube in G,> 
- Original Message - > From: "Roman
 Turovsky" r.turov...@verizon.net>> To: 
"BAROQUE-LUTE" baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>> Sent: 
Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:25 AM> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 
polonaisesA question to the Collective 
Wisdom: What lute polonaises do we have, aside from 
Baron, Weiss-Moscow, and >> Falkenhagen op.2? 
RT To get on or off this list see list information at>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; rel=nofollow 
target=_blank>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>>
 ->> No virus found in this message.>> Checked by AVG -
 www.avg.com>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - 
Release Date: 01/28/11>>> 
-> No virus found in this message.> Checked by AVG - 
www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release 
Date: 01/28/11> 




 
--0-1146046691-1296292639=:55291--
--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polonaises

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Quite a lot for mandora - if you count this as a 'lute'

   MH
   --- On Sat, 29/1/11, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

 From: Roman Turovsky 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] polonaises
 To: "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
 Date: Saturday, 29 January, 2011, 5:25

   A question to the Collective Wisdom:
   What lute polonaises do we have, aside from Baron, Weiss-Moscow, and
   Falkenhagen op.2?
   RT
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: French Baroque Lute Music from 1650-1700

[Martyn Hodgson]

No attachments
   --- On Tue, 30/11/10, ro...@rolfhamre.com  wrote:

 From: ro...@rolfhamre.com 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: French Baroque Lute Music from 1650-1700
 To: l...@manassero.net, tade...@mac.com
 Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 8:34

   Dear collegues,
   Thank you for your interest. For those interested I have attached to
   this mail, a pdf of the introduction so you can see what it is all
   about.
   Best whishes
   Robin Rolfhamre
   Siterer Luca <[1]l...@manassero.net>:
   >Dear Per Kjetil,
   >   the book looks very promising, but also very expensive! Maybe
   an
   >excerpt could help amateurs invest USD 70 + shipping costs...
   >Thanks,
   >Luca
   >
   >On Nov 29, 2010, Per Kjetil Farstad <[2]pkfar...@online.no> wrote:
   >
   >  Dear lute list.
   >  May I recommend this informative book from the Swedish/Norwegian
   >  lute researcher Robin Rolfhamre:
   >  "French baroque lute music from 1650-1700: A study of the art of
   >  playing the lute"
   >  You find more infromation on amazonat this adress:
   >
   [1][3]http://www.amazon.com/French-baroque-lute-music-1650-1700/dp/3639
   >  308514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid89893630&sr=1-1
   >  Happy reading!
   >  Best regards from Per Kjetil Farstad
   >
   > References
   >
   >1.
   >
   [4]http://www.amazon.com/French-baroque-lute-music-1650-1700/dp/3639308
   514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid89893630&sr=1-1
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   --

   --

References

   1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@manassero.net
   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pkfar...@online.no
   3. http://www.amazon.com/French-baroque-lute-music-1650-1700/dp/3639
   4. 
http://www.amazon.com/French-baroque-lute-music-1650-1700/dp/3639308514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid89893630&sr=1-1
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss duets for lute and harpsichord

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I have a copy of the Salzburg Lautencodex Ms III 25 which contains
   these Weiss works (mostly for liutho, violino and basso but only the
   lute tablature survives). Other composers include: Meckh, Block(Bloch),
   Lauf(f)ensteiner, Bohr.

   I have no evidence that the Weiss pieces in this Ms were originally
   composed as duets for two lutes and think it more likely they were
   originally solos (many have concordances with solo sources) with string
   treble and bass added (by Weiss or others?) as was the fashion at the
   time. Many of the pieces by other composers may have been conceived as
   concerted works in the first place since the lute parts often have
   passages of continuo type texture.  I don't have the LSA journal you
   mention so can't comment on the numbering.

   Incidentally I think we need to be careful in assuming that any part
   labelled 'Basso' in this repertoire implies a keyboard instrument as
   well as a melodic bass (such as bass violin, cello etc): I think it
   more likely that no keyboard was expected (compare with extant trios
   for lute, violin basso)

   MH
   --- On Sun, 28/11/10, Stephan Olbertz  wrote:

 From: Stephan Olbertz 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss duets for lute and harpsichord
 To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 Date: Sunday, 28 November, 2010, 9:29

   Am 22.11.2010, 13:49 Uhr, schrieb Nicolas Valencia
   <[1]nivalenl...@gmail.com>:
   >Dear all,
   >
   >
   >According to Richard Stone's article, "Weiss's Concerted Music: A
   >Catalogue with Commentary", published in the latest LSA Journal,
   some
   >duets by Weiss include alternate instrumentations, i.e. lute &
   flute,
   >lute & lute or lute & harpsichord, although only the lute part
   >survived.
   I have Stones edition of the Weiss Lute Concerti here, and I guess the
   article draws on the introduction there? Unfortunately some of the SC
   numbers Stone gives for the Salzburg Lautencodex pieces don't match the
   numbers in the catalogues on the SLWeiss-site.
   For example, Stone has SC 27 + 57 for no. III, the catalogues  27 + 52.
   For no. V Stone has SC 68, aginst 69 in the web incipits.
   And so on.
   Can anyone shed some light on this?
   Best regards,
   Stephan
   BTW: Does anyone have the Salzburg MS (M III 25)? I can' find it
   indexed on the website of the library.
   >
   >
   >I know Stone, Schroeder and Cardin's reconstructions for flute &
   lute
   >and lute & lute, but I was wondering if there's any lute &
   harpsichord
   >recording of these duets. Any other composer wrote for both
   >instruments?
   >
   >
   >Regards,
   >
   >
   >Nicolas
   >
   >--
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --Erstellt mit Operas revolutionaerem E-Mail-Modul:
   [3]http://www.opera.com/mail/

   --

References

   1. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nivalenl...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.opera.com/mail/

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Wenzel von Radolt AND recording errors

[Martyn Hodgson]

t;
   > > and I think this recording
   > >> would have benefited from doing so.  Gunar
   > Letzbor mentions that playing
   > >> with lutes was a new experience for the group, so
   > my hats off to them
   > >> for tackling this music in the first place and
   > doing such a good job of
   > >> it.
   > >>
   > >> Chris
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>> The liner notes reveal some interesting
   > facts...
   > >>> apparently, the
   > >>> parts were scattered in various areas, making
   > great
   > >>> difficulty in
   > >>> assembling the concertos. All parts were then
   > >>> together, with the
   > >>> exception of the first violin part in the
   > concertos.
   > >>> One of the
   > >>> lutenists in the project, Hubert Hoffman,
   > started writing
   > >>> the missing
   > >>> violin parts, and after near completion of the
   > work,
   > >>> somebody found
   > >>> it the missing part!! Yesterday I had a
   > conversation
   > >>> with an old
   > >>> friend, Doug Towne. In discussing this, he
   > laughed,
   > >>> stating, "They
   > >>> should have asked me... I've had it since the
   > late 70's".
   > >>>
   > >>> The lutenists involved in the recording are
   > Hubert Hoffman,
   > >>> Sven
   > >>> Schwannberger, and Klaus Kob. I have never
   > heard of
   > >>> any of these
   > >>> performers, but they certainly performed these
   > works well.
   > >>>
   > >>> ed
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>> At 08:41 AM 11/7/2010, Christopher Wilke
   > wrote:
   > >>> >Bernd,
   > >>> >
   > >>> > Thanks for the link. And
   > >>> thanks very much to Martyn for
   > >>> > writing the article. Very interesting
   > and
   > >>> informative stuff. I
   > >>> > wonder why Radolt has received so little
   > attention.
   > >>> >
   > >>> > On one point, though, I can't
   > >>> agree with Martyn: von Radolt's
   > >>> > music is not of "negligible musical
   > worth." I
   > >>> won't argue that it
   > >>> > is the deepest stuff, but it is pleasant
   > to listen to
   > >>> and there are
   > >>> > some surprises to keep you interested.
   > Overall,
   > >>> I would recommend
   > >>> > the recording that Ed mentioned by Ars
   > Antiqua Austria
   > >>> although I
   > >>> > find the violin to be a bit too forward
   > in the
   > >>> recorded mix. They
   > >>> > definitely did not follow Radolt's
   > explicit
   > >>> instruction that "the
   > >>> > soprano part that is the small lute must
   > at all times
   > >>> be set
   > >>> > strongly" and tripled in volume in
   > relation to the
   > >>> other parts. (I
   > >>> > suppose they were after an "overall
   > composite
   > >>> sound.")
   > >>> >
   > >>> > Actually, I know very little
   > >>> about this recording. I bought it
   > >>> > on iTunes about a year ago and there is
   > no booklet
   > >>> (shame on
   > >>> > them!). I could hear that there was more
   > than
   > >>> one lute on there,
   > >>> > but the performers' names are not even
   > listed
   > >>> online. How hard is
   > >>> > it to include a digital booklet, people?
   > >>> >
   > >>> >Chris
   > >>> >
   > >>> >
   > >>> >
   > >>> >Christopher Wilke
   > >>> >Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   > >>> >www.christopherwilke.com
   > >>> >
   > >>> >
   > >>> >--- On Sun, 11/7/10, Bernd Haegemann
   > <[8...@symbol4.de>
   > >>> wrote:
   > >>> >
   > >>> > > From: Bernd Haegemann <[9...@symbol4.de>
   > >>> > > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Wenzel
   > von Radolt
   > >>> > > To: [10]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Wenzel von Radolt

[Martyn Hodgson]

   You are quite right to take me to task me for pronouncing too hard on
   von Radolt's compositions: in fact I recanted quite some time ago(see
   later FoMRHI and, indeed, this list!)!   As you say, not the deepest of
   stuff but pleasant enough and a change from much of the lute composers'
   works at the time.

   MH
   --- On Sun, 7/11/10, Christopher Wilke  wrote:

 From: Christopher Wilke 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Wenzel von Radolt
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, "Edward Martin"
     , "Martyn Hodgson" ,
 "Bernd Haegemann" 
 Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 14:41

   Bernd,
   Thanks for the link.  And thanks very much to Martyn for writing
   the article.  Very interesting and informative stuff.  I wonder why
   Radolt has received so little attention.
   On one point, though, I can't agree with Martyn: von Radolt's music
   is not of "negligible musical worth."  I won't argue that it is the
   deepest stuff, but it is pleasant to listen to and there are some
   surprises to keep you interested.  Overall, I would recommend the
   recording that Ed mentioned by Ars Antiqua Austria although I find the
   violin to be a bit too forward in the recorded mix.  They definitely
   did not follow Radolt's explicit instruction that "the soprano part
   that is the small lute must at all times be set strongly" and tripled
   in volume in relation to the other parts. (I suppose they were after an
   "overall composite sound.")
   Actually, I know very little about this recording.  I bought it on
   iTunes about a year ago and there is no booklet (shame on them!).  I
   could hear that there was more than one lute on there, but the
   performers' names are not even listed online.  How hard is it to
   include a digital booklet, people?
   Chris
   Christopher Wilke
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
   --- On Sun, 11/7/10, Bernd Haegemann <[1...@symbol4.de> wrote:
   > From: Bernd Haegemann <[2...@symbol4.de>
   > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Wenzel von Radolt
   > To: [3]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, "Edward Martin"
   <[4...@gamutstrings.com>, "Martyn Hodgson"
   <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   > Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 4:40 AM
   >
   > >   See my paper in FoMRHI Quarterly No
   > 44 July 1986 C-737 :  'Von Radolt's
   > >   instructions to lute players (Wien
   > 1701)'
   > >
   > >   This gives a translation of the
   > instructions and a commentary on the
   > >   lute sizes/pitches required.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > see
   >
   > [6]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-044.pdf
   >
   >
   > B
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@symbol4.de
   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@symbol4.de
   3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings.com
   5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   6. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-044.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html