[Finale] GPO update
Hi folks, a plea for help again. I've downloaded and installed the GPO update from their website (as advised by them) but now when I come to setup GPO, the GPO option isn't available. Any ideas? Thanks, Lawrence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] music literacy
I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
It sounds like you wouldn't want a copy of my iTunes folder, either ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence David Eden Sent: 31 March 2006 13:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] music literacy I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Was your father impressed with your taste in popular music in the 60s? John On 31 Mar 2006, at 13:49, Lawrence David Eden wrote: I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 7:49 AM -0500 3/31/06, Lawrence David Eden wrote: I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. Oh, but parents were appalled at what passed for music in the '60s and '70s (and '80s, I can assure you!), and preachers thundered against Rock 'n' Roll as the ruination of our youth, and my father and I really enjoyed the middle-of-the-road dreck that passed as popular music in the '40s and '50s (Sing Along with Mitch, two, three, four), and preachers thundered against Ragtime and Jazz and bobbed hair and short skirts as the ruination of our youth, etc., etc., ad infinitum. What you're saying is that your daughter's age group is more open minded and inclusive in their definition of music, and isn't that a Good Thing? Well, ya got trouble my friends, right here, I say trouble right here in River City ... John (a classical musician who spent 20+ years as a professional entertainer) -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Howell Sent: Fri 31-Mar-06 9:41 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy At 7:49 AM -0500 3/31/06, Lawrence David Eden wrote: I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. Oh, but parents were appalled at what passed for music in the '60s and '70s (and '80s, I can assure you!), and preachers thundered against Rock 'n' Roll as the ruination of our youth, and my father and I really enjoyed the middle-of-the-road dreck that passed as popular music in the '40s and '50s (Sing Along with Mitch, two, three, four), and preachers thundered against Ragtime and Jazz and bobbed hair and short skirts as the ruination of our youth, etc., etc., ad infinitum. What you're saying is that your daughter's age group is more open minded and inclusive in their definition of music, and isn't that a Good Thing? Well, ya got trouble my friends, right here, I say trouble right here in River City ... John (a classical musician who spent 20+ years as a professional entertainer) -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Howell Sent: Fri 31-Mar-06 9:41 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy At 7:49 AM -0500 3/31/06, Lawrence David Eden wrote: I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. Oh, but parents were appalled at what passed for music in the '60s and '70s (and '80s, I can assure you!), and preachers thundered against Rock 'n' Roll as the ruination of our youth, and my father and I really enjoyed the middle-of-the-road dreck that passed as popular music in the '40s and '50s (Sing Along with Mitch, two, three, four), and preachers thundered against Ragtime and Jazz and bobbed hair and short skirts as the ruination
RE: [Finale] music literacy
I'm afraid that you do seem very much caught up in parental concerns rather than musical ones. None of your objections are substantially different to those who criticised previous generations of music. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Williams, Jim Sent: 31 March 2006 16:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. Jim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 7:49 AM, Lawrence David Eden wrote: I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. Substitute 20's for '60s and you will get, absolutely verbatim, what was widely said about our own pop music when it was new. The older generation always believes that the latest pop music is degenerate garbage. Me, I don't buy that. Yes, I purchase very little pop music these days, and no, I don't like most (certainly not all!) of what I find on the radio. But I realize that this is *my* problem, not the music's. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 9:41 AM, John Howell wrote: Well, ya got trouble my friends, right here, I say trouble right here in River City ... Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way? What's the matter with kids today? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
Was it as OVERT then as it is now??? Was there MTV available to have it in front of children in an engaging format 24/7? Just asking ;-) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Owain Sutton Sent: Fri 31-Mar-06 11:04 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy I'm afraid that you do seem very much caught up in parental concerns rather than musical ones. None of your objections are substantially different to those who criticised previous generations of music. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Williams, Jim Sent: 31 March 2006 16:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. Jim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Was it as OVERT then as it is now??? Was there MTV available to have it in front of children in an engaging format 24/7? Just asking ;-) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Owain Sutton Sent: Fri 31-Mar-06 11:04 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy I'm afraid that you do seem very much caught up in parental concerns rather than musical ones. None of your objections are substantially different to those who criticised previous generations of music. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Williams, Jim Sent: 31 March 2006 16:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. Jim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
Overtness is in the eye of the beholder ;) Seriously - Elvis' early gyrations were inappropriately sexual in a very overy way, to many people at the time. It was only a few weeks ago I was chatting with a couple of high school music teachers, about how farcical it is that the topic of 'protest songs' is almost always taught without any reference to any rap music. And how the curriculum avoids rap music entirely, with the only reason we could see being that too many people shy away from the subject matter (even though similarly-controversial topics get tackeld in drama, English, art,...) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Williams, Jim Sent: 31 March 2006 17:09 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy Was it as OVERT then as it is now??? Was there MTV available to have it in front of children in an engaging format 24/7? Just asking ;-) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Owain Sutton Sent: Fri 31-Mar-06 11:04 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy I'm afraid that you do seem very much caught up in parental concerns rather than musical ones. None of your objections are substantially different to those who criticised previous generations of music. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Williams, Jim Sent: 31 March 2006 16:49 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. Jim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
At 10:49 AM -0500 3/31/06, Williams, Jim wrote: John, I agree in principle with your statement about the past repeating itself, railing preachers, etc...but as the parent of a 16-year-old son and a 12-year old daughter, I ask the following: Did Benny Goodman's music regularly refer to women as hos and bitches? Well, I'm not sure that Benny's music was vocal in the first place, but things do change and whether the changes are for the better or worse is a matter of opinion, always. In the '50s we could not have Bloody Mary in South Pacific using the word bastard on stage, and had to Bowdlerize it to buzzard. I think we even had to clean up something in A Connecticut Yank of all shows! Today theater people, much more and much more vehemently than musicians, will fight to defend their rights to use what used to be gutter language in their art. I made a personal decision to drop my sponsorship of our on-campus, student-run theater company the year they decided to do Hair, and that's been around since when, 1969? Did Elvis's music openly advocate killing policemen? No, but his pelvis was said to incite young women to riot! At least Ed told his cameramen not to show it!! Did swing music openly advocate sexual promiscuity with no regard to its physical or emotional consequences? (well, I might have to concede some there...) I should think so!! Long poodle skirts are one thing, but swirling them around until one's underwear became visible was something else again! Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? Probably not, and I also find it hard to believe that legitimate actresses will do some of the things that actresses WILL do nowadays, but I guess that's what comes of growing up in the '50s with those still-repressive Victorian attitudes toward sex and sexuality. As much as I may hate to admit it, I have come to believe that today's music is indeed worse than it was in the past, and I find myself struggling--as a performer AND as a parent--to cope with the current stuff...or am I too caught up in today to see history properly? I think we all are, and it's impossible not to be! I fought hard against accepting Rap as real music, completely aside from the lyrics, but if you reject that, what do you do with Henry Higgins or Prof. Harold Hill? Though my kids are young, I am 54, so I have seen/heard a lot of the (r)evolution leading to current trends. What it comes down to is that things aren't what they used to be, and what's more they never were! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
This is an important topic and deserves consideration by all who are serious in their attempt to understand culture and what makes music work. There was a sea change in musical culture that went along with the 60's revolution. Something happened at that time that had never happened before: a population explosion reached adolescence, and the vagaries of the market based economy followed the tastes and experience of that population. (The other important aspect of adolescent boomer's experience is that, in many cases, their economic position was a comfortable one; they had disposable money that they hadn't earned and didn't value as adults.) It was important to this generation of people to reject what they understood their parent's culture to be, and they rejected the good with the bad. Ellington out, Dylan in. (I know, that's a limited and weighted example.) Because of the lack of demand for structural sophistication in music that sold well because of it's pertinence to adolescent sensibilities, guitar grips that happened to contain the note the composer was singing substituted for harmonic grammar based on the principles of functional harmony. I could go on. Examples abound, and they refer to observable aspects of purely musical/structural elements, not superficial questions of whether or not one generation accepts the rebellion of the next. My future son-in-law was here yesterday - bringing saxophone quartet and soprano arrangements he had done of Elvis Costello's Juliet Letters - some attractive songs with decent lyrics and melodies. The problem with the arrangements was the incoherence of the harmony and erratic, weak and distracting voice leading that came from a too literal copy of Costello's version. This is just one example, and it is one that uses rather more sophisticated thinking than much of post 60s popular music. We are all products of the culture to which we were exposed in our most receptive (and vulnerable) years. It is possible to expand experience beyond that, but it's not easy. That makes it difficult for people who became affected by post 60s music in their youth to recognize the depth of the esthetic change and the resulting impoverishment of the musical landscape. It is hard to see the picture if you are inside the frame. My frame includes elements that direct my understanding in this way, and I study this phenomenon every day. It is not a pretty musical picture. Please understand that I believe that the human spirit is indomitable, and that creativity continues in many areas. It's music that's in trouble, from my perspective. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Williams, Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Was it as OVERT then as it is now??? Not sure; listen to the music from Hair and ask yourself that question again. (Actually, there's a really great new recording of that show done as a benefit for the Actors' Fund of America.) Was there MTV available to have it in front of children in an engaging format 24/7? MTV celebrates its 25th anniversary in a few months; I don't think it counts as a new phenomenon anymore. :-) And I seem to remember complaints about rock-and-roll radio stations corrupting our kids 24/7. It's all relative. (I recall my mother once telling me and my brother that the problem with the Police was that their songs were unbelievably repetitive. We responded by singing from one of her favorite albums: Marathon from Jacques Brel) -- Stephen L. Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG fingerprint: A1BF 5A81 03E7 47CE 71E0 3BD4 8DA6 9268 5BB6 4BBE Help me adjust to the trust that you thrust in my heart With your legs full of love -- Dirty Rotten Scoundrels ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
At 3/31/2006 11:51 AM, Owain Sutton wrote: Overtness is in the eye of the beholder ;) Seriously - Elvis' early gyrations were inappropriately sexual in a very overy way, to many people at the time. Was that ovary, or overly? Is subliminal thought coming into play here ;-) It was only a few weeks ago I was chatting with a couple of high school music teachers, about how farcical it is that the topic of 'protest songs' is almost always taught without any reference to any rap music. And how the curriculum avoids rap music entirely, with the only reason we could see being that too many people shy away from the subject matter (even though similarly-controversial topics get tackeld in drama, English, art,...) Is rap music?I don't think so, only in the way that African drum beats are music. To which I would vote no . Maybe we need to back up another step and define music? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Then, as now, almost all contemporary music was/is dross. (Then being whichever period, era, or style is your preferred poison.) For my money, the most influential and still-viable music of the last 50 years (in any style) is the Beatles, and no other music I've heard comes close. I do not discount the possibility that contemporary styles can produce a music of equal staying power, but I do not think they have yet. After McCartney sang the Superbowl half-time last year, another new generation became enthralled with the Beatles. I am continually amazed how each successive generation rediscovers and owns them. (We boomers may have appreciated Goodman or Ellington. I certainly have. But we never *owned* them: they always belonged to our grandparents.) That said, something that is fundamentally different now than just about any previous period I can think of, especially pop music of the last 50 years, is the complete splintering of taste. My impression is that there no longer is any music that essentially everyone knows, even within a single demographic or age bracket. I think this makes it far more difficult for the next Beatles or the next Beethoven to emerge. Whether such emergence is important I leave as an exercise for the reader. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
These aren't observations of purely musical/structural elements, but an imposition of one particular value system on music to which it is irrelevant. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck Israels Sent: 31 March 2006 18:03 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy Because of the lack of demand for structural sophistication in music that sold well because of it's pertinence to adolescent sensibilities, guitar grips that happened to contain the note the composer was singing substituted for harmonic grammar based on the principles of functional harmony. I could go on. Examples abound, and they refer to observable aspects of purely musical/structural elements, not superficial questions of whether or not one generation accepts the rebellion of the next. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
OK, you started this one, so you can answer it first - how DO you define music? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Daley Sent: 31 March 2006 18:27 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy Was that ovary, or overly? Is subliminal thought coming into play here ;-) It was only a few weeks ago I was chatting with a couple of high school music teachers, about how farcical it is that the topic of 'protest songs' is almost always taught without any reference to any rap music. And how the curriculum avoids rap music entirely, with the only reason we could see being that too many people shy away from the subject matter (even though similarly-controversial topics get tackeld in drama, English, art,...) Is rap music?I don't think so, only in the way that African drum beats are music. To which I would vote no . Maybe we need to back up another step and define music? Phil Daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Very good observations. To me, Chuck is in touch with the current music world. At 3/31/2006 12:02 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: We are all products of the culture to which we were exposed in our most receptive (and vulnerable) years. It is possible to expand experience beyond that, but it's not easy. That makes it difficult for people who became affected by post 60s music in their youth to recognize the depth of the esthetic change and the resulting impoverishment of the musical landscape. It is hard to see the picture if you are inside the frame. I put 4 kids through school in the 80s early 90s. Every one of them had a piano background from 1st grade on. (My wife is a piano teacher ;-) They all picked a band instrument (drums was not allowed ;-) and played it through HS. They all took private lessons on their instrument, it was that or drop out of band. My 2nd son made All-Sate for 3 years in a row and was Solo trombonist in the All-State band his senor year. They all listened to my early classics and my wife's 60's favorites. I never heard any of hem listening to rap or other really ugly music. They now all have college degrees (2 have advanced degrees) and, when we visit, most of them don't appear to listen to much music at all. In fact, 3 of them do not even have TVs. I am certainly open to other's viewpoints on that. 2 of them do their news reading (current event stuff) on the web. The other (the all-state one) does not listen to radio news nor read a newspaper. When I visit, I have to go out and buy a newspaper to see what's going on. (Perhaps I am too political). My frame includes elements that direct my understanding in this way, and I study this phenomenon every day. It is not a pretty musical picture. Please understand that I believe that the human spirit is indomitable, and that creativity continues in many areas. It's music that's in trouble, from my perspective. My wife teaches 50 piano students a week. So many of them don't understand the music that they are playing. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Wow, another emerging that I totally agree with. At 3/31/2006 12:37 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Then, as now, almost all contemporary music was/is dross. (Then being whichever period, era, or style is your preferred poison.) Exactly. And you cannot understand why anyone would listen to it, well, except for females singing on video ;-) Really, why does being sexy mean you actually have any musical talent? (Side note: I am on another list that is having a huge war about Fox's IDOL and whether anyone on it has any musical talent whatsoever. If you haven't watched it, you should watch 1 or 2 episodes. That was all I could take. ;-) But it appears to be on the scene. For my money, the most influential and still-viable music of the last 50 years (in any style) is the Beatles, and no other music I've heard comes close. I do not discount the possibility that contemporary styles can produce a music of equal staying power, but I do not think they have yet. Great synopsis. I thought the early stuff was repetitive and boring. But, they then developed into real musicians and made some exemplary music. After McCartney sang the Superbowl half-time last year, another new generation became enthralled with the Beatles. I am continually amazed how each successive generation rediscovers and owns them. (We boomers may have appreciated Goodman or Ellington. I certainly have. But we never *owned* them: they always belonged to our grandparents.) I am pre-boomer, does that mean I own them ;-) That said, something that is fundamentally different now than just about any previous period I can think of, especially pop music of the last 50 years, is the complete splintering of taste. My impression is that there no longer is any music that essentially everyone knows, even within a single demographic or age bracket. I think this makes it far more difficult for the next Beatles or the next Beethoven to emerge. Whether such emergence is important I leave as an exercise for the reader. My personal opinion is that rap has a lot to do with it, but it may actually have a lot more to do with impending immigration laws. The whole country is becoming more splintered by the millions of illegal immigrants who refuse to learn English. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Robert Patterson wrote: Then, as now, almost all contemporary music was/is dross. (Then being whichever period, era, or style is your preferred poison.) As with all creative efforts, Sturgeon's Law applies to music. Sturgeon's Law, originally coined to apply to written fiction was 90% of everything is crud. We will know in a generation or two what really was a success, and what was not, as the successful stuff lasts, and the dross does not. Interestingly enough, the successful stuff is what is accessible to more than one narrow group, be that group age defined, geographically defined, or whatever. Bach and Mozart survive, because even now they're listenable and evoke something more than ennui. The same goes for the Beatles. For me, at least, the vast majority of Rap and Hip-hop do not. Same goes for heavy metal, though. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
At 3/31/2006 12:43 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: OK, you started this one, so you can answer it first - how DO you define music? Pitch and rhythm. Words are secondary. Rap has rhythm. End of story. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
(Side note: I am on another list that is having a huge war about Fox's IDOL and whether anyone on it has any musical talent whatsoever. If you haven't watched it, you should watch 1 or 2 episodes. That was all I could take. ;-) I lost the thread of who wrote this, but I have some inside insight (department of redundancy department), into this. A young baritone I know was a semi - finalist (or something like that in the auditioning process) in this debacle a year or so ago. As he got closer to the point where they'd let him compete on TV, he was challenged with the question, You have musical training, don't you? When he answered, yes, he was summarily rejected. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy
In a message dated 3/31/06 1:01:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Phil Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy Is rap music?I don't think so, only in the way that African drum beats are music. To which I would vote no . Maybe we need to back up another step and define music? I would also vote no. Rap may have some musical elements in the background (some very basic harmonies, usually playbacks from older recordings of other performers), but essentially it is poetry, with dance moves onstage. (Awful poetry, but maybe relevant/appropriate in the way protest songs had been conceived.) I've always believed that music means modulated tones, if not some toe-tapping melody, at least recognizable pitches... Just my humble opinion, Steve NYC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Actually, I was quite impressed at the very high quality of popular music last year. I imagine even the most conservative members of the list would be impressed by many of the songs from Sufjan Steven's _Illinois_ or Fiona Apple's _Extraordinary Machine_. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 31 Mar 2006, at 7:49 AM, Lawrence David Eden wrote: I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 3/31/2006 01:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Actually, I was quite impressed at the very high quality of popular music last year. I imagine even the most conservative members of the list would be impressed by many of the songs from Sufjan Steven's _Illinois_ or Fiona Apple's _Extraordinary Machine_. Since I never heard of them, is this a remark on the quality of unknown music or a comment that good music is unknown? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Is this thread just about rap bashing? I don't seek it out, but some of what finds me I find very compelling. For example, I thoroughly enjoy the opening theme of Samurai Champloo. When those isolated little piano notes come in near the end, it gives me a little shiver. As far as gangsta lyrics go, what choice did we give our children? Children invariably seek out the thing that will most shock their elders. We boomers decided we would be unshockable, so we left our children no choice but to embrace tattoos, body piercings, cigarettes, and gangsta lyrics. I remember as a child shocking my elders with the lyrics from Hair. We are the ones who upped the ante, but I'm not saying I would do anything differently in hindsight. A few years ago I went on a tour with a couple of 16 year-olds. They decided to see if they could shock me with the stuff on their music player. They did, but I think I kept my cool. I suppose this too shall pass. It is easy for me to say, since in real life I'm not an actual parent. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: RE: [Finale] music literacy
In a message dated 31/03/2006 19:27:44 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Rap may have some musical elements in the background (some very basic harmonies, usually playbacks from older recordings of other performers), but essentially it is poetry" I was once called upon to examine candidates in a national exam (gcse). I had examined at this school for about five years. This particular year, amongst the grade 6 + 7 instrumentalists (who, presumably, had been studying their instruments for several years) was a child who performed a rap. I explained to the music teacher that Ifelt unqualified tomark it as a musical performance since in my view it was mere rhythmic poetry reading and that the performance should be referred to a moderator. I was never asked back. All the best,. Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.ukDulcian Wind Quintet: http://dulcianwind.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Really hiding rests
On 31.03.2006 Aaron Sherber wrote: When I hide a rest, it displays on screen as grey. Where is the setting to *really* make it hide? You can switch the display on or off in the View menu, Hide hidden notes and rests Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Really hiding rests
Aaron Sherber wrote: Hi all, I found this setting in previous Finale versions, but now in 2006 I can't seem to find it. When I hide a rest, it displays on screen as grey. Where is the setting to *really* make it hide? Ummm... in the Speedy Entry Tool click the rest and then 'o' (for obscure) works for me. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Actually, I find a lot of Anime (Japanese cartoon) music to be very very good. The Samurai Champloo is a great OST, but there are others as well. A lot of the animes do use real orchestras for music as well, and most of the soundtracks are symphonic in nature. Compare that with a lot of the American ones..Actually, the worst example would be the anime One Piece, which has some excellent music in the Japanese version. The American version was heavily edited (content, etc) and they dumped almost all the music from it. It's a shame. As for other pop music, there are some good artists out there. A number of my students are Maroon 5 freaks, and their songs are interesting and very melodic compared to groups like Green Day Robert Patterson wrote: Is this thread just about rap bashing? I don't seek it out, but some of what finds me I find very compelling. For example, I thoroughly enjoy the opening theme of Samurai Champloo. When those isolated little piano notes come in near the end, it gives me a little shiver. As far as gangsta lyrics go, what choice did we give our children? Children invariably seek out the thing that will most shock their elders. We boomers decided we would be unshockable, so we left our children no choice but to embrace tattoos, body piercings, cigarettes, and gangsta lyrics. I remember as a child shocking my elders with the lyrics from Hair. We are the ones who upped the ante, but I'm not saying I would do anything differently in hindsight. A few years ago I went on a tour with a couple of 16 year-olds. They decided to see if they could shock me with the stuff on their music player. They did, but I think I kept my cool. I suppose this too shall pass. It is easy for me to say, since in real life I'm not an actual parent. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Really hiding rests
At 01:55 PM 3/31/2006, Johannes Gebauer wrote: You can switch the display on or off in the View menu, Hide hidden notes and rests Gaahhhthat's it. Thanks, Johannes. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Bboth of these were massive critical and commercial successes last year, selling hundreds of thousands of records and appearing on virtually every music critic's Best of 2005 list. Personally, I would kill to be so unknown! - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 31 Mar 2006, at 1:44 PM, Phil Daley wrote: At 3/31/2006 01:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Actually, I was quite impressed at the very high quality of popular music last year. I imagine even the most conservative members of the list would be impressed by many of the songs from Sufjan Steven's _Illinois_ or Fiona Apple's _Extraordinary Machine_. Since I never heard of them, is this a remark on the quality of unknown music or a comment that good music is unknown? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006, at 11:08 AM, Williams, Jim wrote: Was it as OVERT then as it is now??? Was there MTV available to have it in front of children in an engaging format 24/7? Just asking ;-) MTV hardly ever plays music videos anymore -- hasn't for years. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Obviously, that can't be it, since hip-hop has pitches, and (very often, for the past 10 years or so) singing as well as rapping. In Phil's case, it's pretty clearly not the music he's rejecting, but the culture. Interesting that he also does not consider traditional African music music either. He's clearly not a fan of that culture either. I wonder what Phil would think of my friend Sherisse Rogers, who (like everyone our age) grew up listening to hip-hop and still does. She got a Masters in composition from the Manhattan School of Music, has won all the major prizes available to a jazz composer (ASCAP/IAJE Emerging Composer Commission, BMI's Charlie Parker Composition Award, and the Gil Evans Fellowship, got a four-and-a-half star review in Down Beat for her premiere record, and has brought her big band band to venues like The Jazz Gallery and Jazz at Lincoln Center's Dizzy's Club. But Phil seems to believe it's impossible for someone from such a culture to become a legitimate musician... - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 31 Mar 2006, at 1:04 PM, Phil Daley wrote: At 3/31/2006 12:43 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: OK, you started this one, so you can answer it first - how DO you define music? Pitch and rhythm. Words are secondary. Rap has rhythm. End of story. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Lawrence David Eden wrote: I think that what we are discussing here comes under the category of musical taste as well as music literacy. My daughter is an accomplished high school musician. She plays beautiful flute and sings 1st soprano in her school's madrigal group and choir...but you probably don't want to copy her iTunes folder! I can't believe some of the garbage she listens to. When I compare this to the popular music that I grew up with in the 60's, I am appalled at what passes for music today. Of course, I am appalled at what passes for music today. is what my parents and their friends used to say about the music we listened to in the 60s, and what their parents said about the big bands and Frank Sinatra. Congratulations on finally saying something that I bet you thought you'd never ever say, after hearing the older folks around you when you were a teen complaining about the trash you were listening to. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 31, 2006, at 9:41 AM, John Howell wrote: Well, ya got trouble my friends, right here, I say trouble right here in River City ... Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way? What's the matter with kids today? Why did the kids put beans in their ears? They did 'cause we said NO! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Phil Daley wrote: [snip] My wife teaches 50 piano students a week. So many of them don't understand the music that they are playing. Isn't that part of a teacher's job? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Carl Dershem wrote: Robert Patterson wrote: Then, as now, almost all contemporary music was/is dross. (Then being whichever period, era, or style is your preferred poison.) As with all creative efforts, Sturgeon's Law applies to music. Sturgeon's Law, originally coined to apply to written fiction was 90% of everything is crud. We will know in a generation or two what really was a success, and what was not, as the successful stuff lasts, and the dross does not. Interestingly enough, the successful stuff is what is accessible to more than one narrow group, be that group age defined, geographically defined, or whatever. Bach and Mozart survive, because even now they're listenable and evoke something more than ennui. The same goes for the Beatles. For me, at least, the vast majority of Rap and Hip-hop do not. Same goes for heavy metal, though. cd What?!? Do you mean to tell me you're not listening to a cranked-up Vanilla Fudge even as you type this stuff? What's this world coming to! :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 5:11 AM, John Bell wrote:Was your father impressed with your taste in popular music in the 60s? John It's funny, I was discussing this with my dad last week. I've been working on a book and play-along CD of Beatles songs for my private students. (Don't worry--I've applied for permission to publish at Hal Leonard, who handles copyrights for all Lennon/McCartney songs.) I was telling my dad that I wasn't a Beatles fan until "Rubber Soul," and we were discussing the tremendous influence that they had on popular music. When the Beatles first came out my parents didn't like their music, but now they do, and I'm sure that they find the Beatles far more accessible than most of the pop music today. I doubt that my parents will ever feel that way about the Rolling Stones, though, and I agree. I was pretty disgusted with the Stones' performance at the last Super Bowl. They've always sounded to me like a bad garage band. I do like some of the Stones' older records--just not their live performances. But that's just my personal taste.One of my 12-year-old students wants me to do a play-along project of songs that he and his contemporaries listen to. I told him that if he could find ten current songs that I like, I'd do it (I refuse to work on music that I don't like personally). It remains to be seen whether or not he can come up with the songs--I doubt that he can. For instance, I asked him if he'd heard of Nora Jones (The daughter of Ravi Shankar, who taught George Harrison the sitar, which he played on "Norwegian Wood," one of the songs in my book). Well, my student never heard of her. It turns out that 12-year-olds (at least this 12-year-old) don't listen to Nora Jones. Not that I particularly like her music, but at least I don't find it offensive. Again, personal taste. My former composition instructor at USC likes the Black Crows, which I can't stand. But I'm 20 years older than her, so I guess that explains it.All of this said, I do believe that in general the popular music of the 60s was far superior musically than today's music, but is that a true statement, or just my own personal taste? I dunno. Lon Price, Los Angeles[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.txstnr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Phil Daley wrote: At 3/31/2006 12:43 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: OK, you started this one, so you can answer it first - how DO you define music? Pitch and rhythm. Words are secondary. Rap has rhythm. End of story. Rap has pitch -- the same sort of subtle changes of pitch which Schoenberg pioneered in his sprechgesang works. But you know what? The rap artists aren't sitting around dissing the Finale users, I'll bet! Funny, how people put down that which they can't understand and to which they can't relate: Dylan said it best: Mothers and Fathers throughout the land, Don't criticize what you can't understand. Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command, The old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, For the times, they are a-changing. Personally, rather than put down the music that my children listen to, I listen to it with them. I try to see what it is about their world that makes that music so appealing to them. And I try to give them additional tools to deal with it so they don't turn to drugs and alcohol to forget the ugliness and escape the fact that they and their friends face a future of minimum-wage service-industry jobs, even with a college degree. What's a liberal arts major say? Would you like fries with that? With a president like George Bush, a war like the Iraq war, a Congress which is obviously bought and sold and doesn't give a flying f$%k about the citizens who put it there and pay their oh-so-meager salaries, is it any wonder that kids turn to rap music? Man, if I were 16 I'd sure be listening to it, too, just to escape from the crappy world their parents and grandparents are handing them. Music? Who the f#$k cares if it's music? It helps them deal with the world, just as Bob Dylan (I certainly can't call his vocals any ideal role model for a musical world!) and Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix and Buffalo Springfield and the Byrds, and on and on and on, did for me when I was 16 and scared to death about dying in some east-Asian jungle 2 years later. The world changes, but human nature remains the same. The arts push the limits on acceptability, the youth push the limits on what's possible, the old need to get out of the new road if we can't lend a hand. Of course, David Bowie, 20 years later, said the same thing with a different sound: And these children that you spit on, as they try to change their world, Are immune to your consultations, they're well aware what they're going through. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Chuck Israels wrote: (Side note: I am on another list that is having a huge war about Fox's IDOL and whether anyone on it has any musical talent whatsoever. If you haven't watched it, you should watch 1 or 2 episodes. That was all I could take. ;-) I lost the thread of who wrote this, but I have some inside insight (department of redundancy department), into this. A young baritone I know was a semi - finalist (or something like that in the auditioning process) in this debacle a year or so ago. As he got closer to the point where they'd let him compete on TV, he was challenged with the question, You have musical training, don't you? When he answered, yes, he was summarily rejected. Did anybody ever really think those shows would be fair? Not me, certainly. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Phil Daley wrote: At 3/31/2006 01:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Actually, I was quite impressed at the very high quality of popular music last year. I imagine even the most conservative members of the list would be impressed by many of the songs from Sufjan Steven's _Illinois_ or Fiona Apple's _Extraordinary Machine_. Since I never heard of them, is this a remark on the quality of unknown music or a comment that good music is unknown? Or maybe a comment on a need for you to listen to pop music more to see what's really going on? If you don't listen, you'll never know. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006, at 3:48 PM, Lon Price wrote: It turns out that 12-year-olds (at least this 12-year-old) don't listen to Nora Jones. I'm sorry Lon, I don't want to pick on you, but I'm amused that this comes as a surprise to you, considering how aggressively Norah Jones is marketed to the middle-aged, Starbucks-frequenting, NPR-listening demographic. What you said is the precise equivalent of someone 50 years ago expressing surprise that the kids aren't listening to Bing Crosby. Personally, I'm more surprised -- well, not surprised, exactly, but saddened -- that so many on this list are so insular and secure in their tastes that they are completely disconnected from the musical culture at large. And proud of it, to boot. Who's calling who musically illiterate, again? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
dhbailey wrote: Robert Patterson wrote: Then, as now, almost all contemporary music was/is dross. (Then being whichever period, era, or style is your preferred poison.) As with all creative efforts, Sturgeon's Law applies to music. Sturgeon's Law, originally coined to apply to written fiction was 90% of everything is crud. We will know in a generation or two what really was a success, and what was not, as the successful stuff lasts, and the dross does not. Interestingly enough, the successful stuff is what is accessible to more than one narrow group, be that group age defined, geographically defined, or whatever. Bach and Mozart survive, because even now they're listenable and evoke something more than ennui. The same goes for the Beatles. For me, at least, the vast majority of Rap and Hip-hop do not. Same goes for heavy metal, though. What?!? Do you mean to tell me you're not listening to a cranked-up Vanilla Fudge even as you type this stuff? What's this world coming to! :-) No idea, but some hand-cranked vanilla fudge sounds good right now. What - you weren't taking about ice cream??? ;) cd PS - My folks and I often agree on music, preferring jazz from Armstrong through Kubis, and a lot of classical. For modern stuff, the stuff that either sounds like someone attacking a cat with a chainsaw (heavy metal) or someone endlessly trying to find the right chord and failing (much other modern rock and roll) doesn't do much for us, but Beatles, BST, Tower of Power, Steely Dan, Doobie Brothers and that sort of thing works. -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Darcy James Argue wrote: I'm more surprised -- well, not surprised, exactly, but saddened -- that so many on this list are so insular and secure in their tastes that they are completely disconnected from the musical culture at large. Is this not the splintering of taste in a nutshell? I think the problem extends far beyond the confines of this list. Everyone has a coccoon of taste. I'm sure I'm no exception. These days I only get what comes to me by way of playing in the orchestra or watching TV (a liberal dose of anime, which has surprisingly good music.) Both of these are more diverse than you might think, but much good stuff is out there that I haven't heard. The challenge facing emerging music these days is that everyone's coccoons are so different. Nevertheless, many of the young people I know have much broader and diverse appetites than we sometimes give them credit for. It's us old farts that tend to be ossified. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
- Original Message - From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy Phil Daley wrote: At 3/31/2006 12:43 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: OK, you started this one, so you can answer it first - how DO you define music? Pitch and rhythm. Words are secondary. Rap has rhythm. End of story. Rap has pitch Indeed, and some music has no rhythm Peter ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Was your father impressed with your taste in popular music in the 60s? John Always... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
Darcy wrote: Personally, I'm more surprised -- well, not surprised, exactly, but saddened -- that so many on this list are so insular and secure in their tastes that they are completely disconnected from the musical culture at large. And proud of it, to boot. Who's calling who musically illiterate, again? A comment and a question: 1. I got more of a sense from this thread that people HAD listened to things and then rejected them. I can understand that. 2. Whose job is it (if anybody's) to tell some of the modern emperors that they are wearing no clothes, or to tell listeners that the emperors they are idolizing are wearing no clothes? Jim Darcy wrote: Personally, I'm more surprised -- well, not surprised, exactly, but saddened -- that so many on this list are so insular and secure in their tastes that they are completely disconnected from the musical culture at large. And proud of it, to boot. Who's calling who musically illiterate, again? A comment and a question: 1. I got more of a sense from this thread that people HAD listened to things and then rejected them. I can understand that. 2. Whose job is it (if anybody's) to tell some of the modern emperors that they are wearing no clothes, or to tell listeners that the emperors they are idolizing are wearing no clothes? Jim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006 at 13:02, Phil Daley wrote: The whole country is becoming more splintered by the millions of illegal immigrants who refuse to learn English. I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I have to register my complete disaproval at this appalling statement. I wish this thread would return to musical topics before horridly bigoted sentiments like the above inflame the discussion beyond control. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 6:31 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 31 Mar 2006 at 13:02, Phil Daley wrote: The whole country is becoming more splintered by the millions of illegal immigrants who refuse to learn English. I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I have to register my complete disaproval at this appalling statement. I wish this thread would return to musical topics before horridly bigoted sentiments like the above inflame the discussion beyond control. Oh yeah. Back to music. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006 at 12:48, Lon Price wrote: All of this said, I do believe that in general the popular music of the 60s was far superior musically than today's music, but is that a true statement, or just my own personal taste? I dunno. I think that, taken as a body, the pop music of today has far, far more variety than was present in the 60s or 70s, and within that wide variety, there's an amazing degree of complexity and subtlety in the musical content. When teaching my pre-theory class I have done a weekly project where students bring in a recording of a piece of music they particularly like. They have to talk about the piece before it's played, describing what's going on musically, then we listen, then the rest of the class talks about it i musical terms. Two main things have surprised me: 1. they ignore lyrics 2. the music they like is often quite interestingly constructed and often hauntingly ironic. I think that those who complain about the music the kids are listening to basically aren't paying attention. With the advent of easy downloading, there's a huge variety of all kinds of music (pop, classical, jazz, world) that is showing up on these kids iPods on a regular basis, and they like it all. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Was your father impressed with your taste in popular music in the 60s? Interestingly, it was my father (b. 1927) who introduced me to Sgt. Peppers. He had read a review of it on an airplane and was so intrigued he went out and bought it. My only other Beatles exposure at the time was a 45 single with I Wanna Hold Your Hand and I Saw Her Standing There. We wore out that record *and* my father's Sgt. Peppers. (I was about 10 at the time Sgt. Peppers came out.) Other than occasional radio play, I really only came to the rest of the Beatles during their second big wave of popularity. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006, at 6:18 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: Darcy wrote: Personally, I'm more surprised -- well, not surprised, exactly, but saddened -- that so many on this list are so insular and secure in their tastes that they are completely disconnected from the musical culture at large. And proud of it, to boot. Who's calling who musically illiterate, again? A comment and a question: 1. I got more of a sense from this thread that people HAD listened to things and then rejected them. I can understand that. Since no names were named and no specifics given (only broad, inaccurate stereotypes like rap has no pitch), I didn't get that sense at all. 2. Whose job is it (if anybody's) to tell some of the modern emperors that they are wearing no clothes, or to tell listeners that the emperors they are idolizing are wearing no clothes? Ideally someone who is well-versed in the many streams of contemporary music and doesn't reflexively reject it all because it doesn't conform to the aesthetics of the music they grew up with. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006 at 12:48, Lon Price wrote: All of this said, I do believe that in general the popular music of the 60s was far superior musically than today's music, but is that a true statement, or just my own personal taste? I dunno. If you were to pick any week at random from the 60s and look at what was actually in the top twenty at the time, I suspect you would be appalled. It's the same with weather. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006, at 6:40 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: When teaching my pre-theory class I have done a weekly project where students bring in a recording of a piece of music they particularly like. They have to talk about the piece before it's played, describing what's going on musically, then we listen, then the rest of the class talks about it i musical terms. Two main things have surprised me: 1. they ignore lyrics Ah, but they're music majors, right? Classically trained musicians (including singers) are *terrible* about listening to lyrics. I include myself in this category, as I've only started paying attention to lyrics within the past 3-4 years, and even then, they are rarely the first thing that grabs my attention. Non-musicians who are serious about music, however (what Bill Evans called the sensitive layman) listen *primarily* to lyrics -- at least, in my experience. My girlfriend, for instance, will not listen to a song unless the lyrics grab her. It's only after several listens that she starts to pay attention to the music at all. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
John Bell wrote: On 31 Mar 2006 at 12:48, Lon Price wrote: All of this said, I do believe that in general the popular music of the 60s was far superior musically than today's music, but is that a true statement, or just my own personal taste? I dunno. If you were to pick any week at random from the 60s and look at what was actually in the top twenty at the time, I suspect you would be appalled. It's the same with weather. At least you can't say that for the 70's! (No, I didn't type that with a straight face). cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006 at 18:57, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 31 Mar 2006, at 6:40 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: When teaching my pre-theory class I have done a weekly project where students bring in a recording of a piece of music they particularly like. They have to talk about the piece before it's played, describing what's going on musically, then we listen, then the rest of the class talks about it i musical terms. Two main things have surprised me: 1. they ignore lyrics Ah, but they're music majors, right? . . . No. The class is a *pre-theory* class for people with no musical training at all. . . . Classically trained musicians (including singers) are *terrible* about listening to lyrics. I include myself in this category, as I've only started paying attention to lyrics within the past 3-4 years, and even then, they are rarely the first thing that grabs my attention. Well, that may be true, but it's not applicable to this student population. For me it was a surprise because when I was their age, we studied pop music lyrics studiously to try to figure out what the songs were about. And that included while I was in conservatory, which rather goes against your point above. Non-musicians who are serious about music, however (what Bill Evans called the sensitive layman) listen *primarily* to lyrics -- at least, in my experience. My girlfriend, for instance, will not listen to a song unless the lyrics grab her. It's only after several listens that she starts to pay attention to the music at all. In almost all cases, these students couldn't tell me what the lyrics were about for music that they had chosen as being music they *love*. I was appalled by this. Part of it, though, was an inability to articulate what they felt about it, as much as it was a failure to comprehend. That was the point of the exercise, to teach them to talk about music descriptively using words, so I certainly didn't consider it a flaw of the assignment -- it was the point, i.e., to bring out the areas in which they needed to learn out to convert their feelings into something articulate and descriptive. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
The 1970's are by far my favorite decade of popular music. Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, James Brown, Al Green, Sly Stone, Randy Newman, King Crimson, Parliament/Funkadelic, The Who, Led Zep, David Bowie, the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Bill Withers, Steely Dan, Elvis Costello, Nick Drake, The Clash, The Talking Heads, Joni Mitchell, Brian Eno, The Ramones, The Police, and many more all did their best work in the 1970's. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 31 Mar 2006, at 7:01 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: John Bell wrote: On 31 Mar 2006 at 12:48, Lon Price wrote: All of this said, I do believe that in general the popular music of the 60s was far superior musically than today's music, but is that a true statement, or just my own personal taste? I dunno. If you were to pick any week at random from the 60s and look at what was actually in the top twenty at the time, I suspect you would be appalled. It's the same with weather. At least you can't say that for the 70's! (No, I didn't type that with a straight face). cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 31 Mar 2006, at 7:10 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 31 Mar 2006 at 18:57, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 31 Mar 2006, at 6:40 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: When teaching my pre-theory class I have done a weekly project where students bring in a recording of a piece of music they particularly like. They have to talk about the piece before it's played, describing what's going on musically, then we listen, then the rest of the class talks about it i musical terms. Two main things have surprised me: 1. they ignore lyrics Ah, but they're music majors, right? . . . No. The class is a *pre-theory* class for people with no musical training at all. Sorry, I misunderstood -- at my undergrad institution, there were pre-theory classes for music majors who needed remedial training before they could function in a freshman theory class. I thought you meant one of those. Well, that may be true, but it's not applicable to this student population. For me it was a surprise because when I was their age, we studied pop music lyrics studiously to try to figure out what the songs were about. And that included while I was in conservatory, which rather goes against your point above. I can only speak from my own experience, of course. What you report is very interesting, though. I wonder if it's a generational thing? If these students are in their late teens/early twenties, they're ten years younger than me and my peers, and almost certainly have a very different way of approaching music. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 1 Apr 2006, at 00:41, Robert Patterson wrote: Was your father impressed with your taste in popular music in the 60s? Interestingly, it was my father (b. 1927) who introduced me to Sgt. Peppers. He had read a review of it on an airplane and was so intrigued he went out and bought it. My only other Beatles exposure at the time was a 45 single with I Wanna Hold Your Hand and I Saw Her Standing There. We wore out that record *and* my father's Sgt. Peppers. (I was about 10 at the time Sgt. Peppers came out.) I think your father may have been rather exceptional. My own father (b. 1903) was a broad-minded man, open to new ideas in most areas of life. But he regarded jazz as an abomination. It seemed to him to fly in the face of everything he held dear about the music he loved, which was classical music up until about 1900. He hated 20th century composers like Bartok and Stravinsky because their music was dissonant and lacked melody. In vain I tried to persuade him that Bach, who he loved, used dissonance extensively, and that Bartok and Stravinsky were both great melodists. In his old age he made an effort to embrace new music, and eventually declared that he quite enjoyed a performance of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Joseph and the Coat of Many Colours. Oh how I wished he would revert to his old curmudgeonly self! John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
At 12:26 PM -0500 3/31/06, Phil Daley wrote: Is rap music?I don't think so, only in the way that African drum beats are music. To which I would vote no . Maybe we need to back up another step and define music? The Grammy Awards already have. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Unfortunately. Dean Maybe we need to back up another step and define music? The Grammy Awards already have. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 9:03 PM, John Howell wrote: At 12:26 PM -0500 3/31/06, Phil Daley wrote: Maybe we need to back up another step and define music? The Grammy Awards already have. Heh heh (nervous laugh) Maybe you should put a smiley when you make a joke. I was almost taking that at face value... Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 10:50 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: Is this thread just about rap bashing? Me, I was surprised at how much this thread *wasn't* about rap basing. In the opera group that I frequent, I'm the *only* one who has anything good to say about rap. Here, we seem to be a minority, but a significant one. A few observations I would add, as one who has heard quite a bit of rap and likes some of it: - Rap is far from uniform. There is a lot of good rap, a little bit of excellent rap, and a whole lot of garbage rap. Pretty much the same as any genre. - Whether you want to say rap counts as music is just a matter of semantics. It's an art form in which rhythm, words, and the sound of the voice are important but pitch is pretty much absent. If by your definition melody and harmony are essential to music, then rap is not music. That's fine, but I think a lot of people, when they say, I don't consider that music, are really saying, I don't like that. - Not all rap is about demeaning women and killing cops. That's a small segment of rap (often called gangsta rap) that gets a disproportionate share of the attention. - Rap and hip hop aren't quite the same thing, though usage is inconsistent enough that it's hard to get an exact definition of either. The term rap alludes to rap's origins in the rhythmic talk that certain DJs used in introducing songs. The term hip hop is more associated with the whole cultural movement and particularly with a style of dance. Thus, one might reasonably say that the parlato songs in The Music Man are a form of rap (but not hip hop); while on the other hand a certain style of clothing might be described as hip hop (but not rap). It may be just more semantics, but I tend to use rap for the style in which the emphasis is on the voice, the lyrics, and the singer's delivery; and hip hop for the style where the emphasis is on the beat, the sound, and the production. My usage is no doubt influenced by the fact that I like the former and dislike the latter. That's consistent with my attitude toward other genres of music: I tend to like music which emphasizes the voice and not the noise. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 7:49 AM, Williams, Jim wrote: Did Bessie Smith videos (yes, there are a few, I believe) feature her 3/4 naked and writhing in simulated orgasmic ecstasy? etc... If you said a crowd of female dancer wearing tight short shorts and shaking their booties you might have a point. But the naked writhing you describe doesn't have much to do with rap. You're thinking of the Britney Spears / Cristina Aguilera [*] genre, which really isn't rap at all. It makes one wonder if you're railing against contemporary culture generally rather than rap music specifically. mdl [*] Yes, I know, there are newer starlets now, and Britney and Cristina are tres passé now, but I'm several years behind the curve. (I can picture one of the current ones, but I can't remember her name.) Anyway, the point remains. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 10:17 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: I lost the thread of who wrote this, but I have some inside insight (department of redundancy department), into this. A young baritone I know was a semi - finalist (or something like that in the auditioning process) in this debacle a year or so ago. As he got closer to the point where they'd let him compete on TV, he was challenged with the question, You have musical training, don't you? When he answered, yes, he was summarily rejected. A few years ago I was chorus director for a regional opera company with a volunteer chorus. One of the better mezzos in the group was a vivacious and buxom blonde in her early 20s. She went to L.A. to try out for American Idol one year and made it through the various auditions to the last level before the group that goes on TV. She sang the Habanera from Carmen and similar popular operatic fare. She told me that everyone there oohed and aahed about what a fabulous singer she was and how she was so much better than everyone else. In the last round when she was rejected she was told something like, It's clear that you have a lot of vocal talent, but it's really not the kind of talent we're looking for here. The funny thing is, in the opera community I was working in, she wasn't extraordinary. As an unpaid choral singer I was definitely happy to have her, but when she started auditioning for solo roles, even small roles with small companies, she was up against a dozen other young mezzos just as good or better. And yet, I don't doubt that it really was true that she was vastly superior to most of the other American Idol auditionees. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
...Thus, one might reasonably say that the parlato songs in The Music Man are a form of rap ... Nope. They came long before rap. And their origins are GS patter songs and Noel Coward. -rob ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 9:05 PM, Robert C L Watson wrote: Nope. They came long before rap. And their origins are GS patter songs and Noel Coward. And they too are rap. Rap is not new. It is ancient. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Mar 31, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:It turns out that 12-year-olds (at least this 12-year-old) don't listen to Nora Jones. I'm sorry Lon, I don't want to pick on you, but I'm amused that this comes as a surprise to you, considering how aggressively Norah Jones is marketed to the middle-aged, Starbucks-frequenting, NPR-listening demographic. What you said is the precise equivalent of someone 50 years ago expressing surprise that the kids aren't listening to Bing Crosby.I think that statement is a little extreme. 50 years ago--1956--there was a TV show called "Your Hit Parade," with a cast of regulars who sang each of the top 10 songs of the week. At that time, the top 10 might consist of songs performed by Elvis, Pat Boone, Patti Page, Doris Day, Ray Anthony, Percy Faith, etc. Rock music had not yet taken over top-40 radio. I definitely remember Bing Crosby making the hit parade that year, with a little tune called "White Christmas." But I get your point. It just shows how out of touch I am with that age group's musical tastes. I was a little more in touch when my youngest daughter was still living with me, but she left the nest 5 years ago. But now I am trying to find out what my students listen to. Like I said, I've offered to do a play-along book and CD of songs that my students pick out, provided that I like them too. I've ruled out rap, because, well, how would one perform a rap song on clarinet or sax? We'll see what comes of that project. Lon Price, Los Angeles[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.txstnr.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
