Re: [Finale] music literacy double double
For those not in the know. A double double refers to double cream and double sugar in one's coffee. I think it may be an eastern Canadian thing. I never heard it said on the west coast. One thing is definitely Ontario is the call for a 'regular' coffee -- which means one cream and one sugar. Go figure. Jerry Gerald Berg On 10-Apr-06, at 1:43 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 10, 2006, at 1:07 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: Here's a double double Hey, one would have to be Canadian just to understand your opening reference! Christopher (Tim Horton for President of Canada!) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Gerald Berg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double EVIDENCE!
Wow! Now it all comes back! I'm not sure if you deserve thanks tho' Jerry Gerald Berg On 10-Apr-06, at 5:49 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 02:38 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: Thanks for sharing that Dennis. I've sent it to a few friends. A true double double. I have evidence, which David just unearthed from his collection: http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_1a.jpg http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_2a.jpg Worse and worse! Dennis Jerry On 10-Apr-06, at 1:35 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:07 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! Wonderful! And just as a little additional amusing bit, my composer colleague and co-host of the ertswhile Kalvos & Damian show, David Gunn, played that McDonalds character (known as "Mac Tonight") in live appearances, including the Miss America Pageant. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double EVIDENCE!
Wow! Now it all comes back! I'm not sure if you deserve thanks tho' Jerry Gerald Berg On 10-Apr-06, at 5:49 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 02:38 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: Thanks for sharing that Dennis. I've sent it to a few friends. A true double double. I have evidence, which David just unearthed from his collection: http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_1a.jpg http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_2a.jpg Worse and worse! Dennis Jerry On 10-Apr-06, at 1:35 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:07 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! Wonderful! And just as a little additional amusing bit, my composer colleague and co-host of the ertswhile Kalvos & Damian show, David Gunn, played that McDonalds character (known as "Mac Tonight") in live appearances, including the Miss America Pageant. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double EVIDENCE!
Wow! Now it all comes back! I'm not sure if you deserve thanks tho' Jerry Gerald Berg On 10-Apr-06, at 5:49 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 02:38 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: Thanks for sharing that Dennis. I've sent it to a few friends. A true double double. I have evidence, which David just unearthed from his collection: http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_1a.jpg http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_2a.jpg Worse and worse! Dennis Jerry On 10-Apr-06, at 1:35 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:07 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! Wonderful! And just as a little additional amusing bit, my composer colleague and co-host of the ertswhile Kalvos & Damian show, David Gunn, played that McDonalds character (known as "Mac Tonight") in live appearances, including the Miss America Pageant. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double EVIDENCE!
Holy Brian Mulroney's chin, Batman! That looks like Jay Leno! Christopher On Apr 10, 2006, at 5:49 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: I have evidence, which David just unearthed from his collection: http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_1a.jpg http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_2a.jpg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double EVIDENCE!
At 02:38 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: >Thanks for sharing that Dennis. I've sent it to a few friends. >A true double double. I have evidence, which David just unearthed from his collection: http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_1a.jpg http://maltedmedia.com/photos/mac_2a.jpg Worse and worse! Dennis >Jerry > > >On 10-Apr-06, at 1:35 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > >> At 01:07 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: >>> A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used >>> the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems >>> what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a >>> person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the >>> venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! >> >> Wonderful! And just as a little additional amusing bit, my composer >> colleague and co-host of the ertswhile Kalvos & Damian show, David >> Gunn, >> played that McDonalds character (known as "Mac Tonight") in live >> appearances, including the Miss America Pageant. >> >> Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double
Thanks for sharing that Dennis. I've sent it to a few friends. A true double double. Jerry On 10-Apr-06, at 1:35 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:07 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! Wonderful! And just as a little additional amusing bit, my composer colleague and co-host of the ertswhile Kalvos & Damian show, David Gunn, played that McDonalds character (known as "Mac Tonight") in live appearances, including the Miss America Pageant. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double
On Apr 10, 2006, at 1:07 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: Here's a double double Hey, one would have to be Canadian just to understand your opening reference! Christopher (Tim Horton for President of Canada!) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double
At 01:07 PM 4/10/06 -0400, Gerald Berg wrote: >A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used >the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems >what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a >person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the >venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! Wonderful! And just as a little additional amusing bit, my composer colleague and co-host of the ertswhile Kalvos & Damian show, David Gunn, played that McDonalds character (known as "Mac Tonight") in live appearances, including the Miss America Pageant. Dennis -- Please participate in my latest project: http://maltedmedia.com/waam/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
What, you mean TWO different people can't screw up the same song at different competitions? I amazed -- I didn't know there was a quota on such mistakes. :-) David H. Bailey John Bell wrote: I might believe you if it was you who was judging the competition. As it is my dollar goes on Darcy. I certainly heard the story long ago. John On 10 Apr 2006, at 10:38 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: I'd believe you if it wasn't told to me by my friend who was judging the competition. Sad, but true. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/10/06 9:35 AM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I will bet you a dollar this story is just an urban legend. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy double double
Here's a double double A few years back (if a few Canadians recall) MacDonald's briefly used the Brecht/Weil tune Mack the Knife as an advertising jingle -- seems what it was really about slipped by them. Then, in a local paper, a person wrote in decrying the fact that they had just ruined the venerable classic of Bobby Darin's Mack the Knife! Jerry Gerald Berg On 10-Apr-06, at 10:38 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: I'd believe you if it wasn't told to me by my friend who was judging the competition. Sad, but true. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/10/06 9:35 AM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I will bet you a dollar this story is just an urban legend. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 10 Apr 2006, at 9:47 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an all-state solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it thusly: You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, Let's call the whole thing off... Etc... Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being aware. -Scot Hanna-Weir ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Scot Hanna-Weir Music Engraver A-R Editions, Inc. Middleton, WI -- www.areditions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I might believe you if it was you who was judging the competition. As it is my dollar goes on Darcy. I certainly heard the story long ago. John On 10 Apr 2006, at 10:38 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: I'd believe you if it wasn't told to me by my friend who was judging the competition. Sad, but true. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/10/06 9:35 AM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I will bet you a dollar this story is just an urban legend. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I guess I owe you a dollar, Scot. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 10 Apr 2006, at 10:38 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: I'd believe you if it wasn't told to me by my friend who was judging the competition. Sad, but true. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/10/06 9:35 AM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I will bet you a dollar this story is just an urban legend. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 10 Apr 2006, at 9:47 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an all-state solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it thusly: You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, Let's call the whole thing off... Etc... Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being aware. -Scot Hanna-Weir ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Scot Hanna-Weir Music Engraver A-R Editions, Inc. Middleton, WI -- www.areditions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I'd believe you if it wasn't told to me by my friend who was judging the competition. Sad, but true. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/10/06 9:35 AM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I will bet you a dollar this story is just an urban legend. > > - Darcy > - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://secretsociety.typepad.com > Brooklyn, NY > > > > On 10 Apr 2006, at 9:47 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: > >> To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an >> all-state >> solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it >> thusly: >> >>You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh >>You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. >>To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, >>Let's call the whole thing off... >> >> Etc... >> >> Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being >> aware. >> >> -Scot Hanna-Weir > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Scot Hanna-Weir Music Engraver A-R Editions, Inc. Middleton, WI -- www.areditions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I will bet you a dollar this story is just an urban legend. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 10 Apr 2006, at 9:47 AM, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an all-state solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it thusly: You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, Let's call the whole thing off... Etc... Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being aware. -Scot Hanna-Weir ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an all-state solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it thusly: You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, Let's call the whole thing off... Etc... Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being aware. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen that song printed without the words being phonetically spelled: "tomahto" "tomayto" so perhaps the young lady was just incompetent. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 8:47 AM -0500 4/10/06, Scot Hanna-Weir wrote: To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an all-state solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it thusly: You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, Let's call the whole thing off... Etc... Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being aware. How sad! (Although I seem to remember that there's something in the orthography of the lyrics that gives a clue in this particular case.) But there's a world of difference between students, who unfortunately don't know any more than their teachers do, and actors auditioning for major roles in well-known and award-winning shows, and that's true whether it's community theater or equity. If said actor doesn't know the history of that particular role, the people hearing the auditions certainly do!! John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
To sadly counter that argument, I submit the girl who sang at an all-state solo/ensemble competition, Let's call the whole thing off. She sang it thusly: You say to-may-toh and I say to-may-toh You say poh-tay-toh and I say poh-tay-toh. To-may-toh, to-may-toh, poh-tay-toh, poh-tay-toh, Let's call the whole thing off... Etc... Maybe we could say good performers wouldn't perform without being aware. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/7/06 8:43 PM, "John Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 12:38 PM -0400 4/7/06, Phil Daley wrote: >> At 4/7/2006 11:33 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >> >>> Indeed he could not. Having him speak the lyrics in rhythm was a >>> desperate kludge that turned out to be perfect for the character. Each >>> of the songs does in fact have a clear melody that you can hear in the >>> orchestra; the combination of this w. Harrison's spoken delivery >>> results in a combined effect very close to what one would experience if >>> he had actually been singing. >> >> My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors >> Higgins, such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, >> could have replicated that part? > > Of course. Couldn't you? X-noteheads have been used to represent > relative pitch in speech for rather a long time. But I submit that > there is no such person as a performer unaware of previous > performances. Only a fool would audition for the King unaware of Yul > Bryner, or Prof. Higgins unaware of Rex Harrison. After all, they > created the roles! If you have to invoke a fantasy world I'm afraid > you're on shaky ground. > > Robert Preston, on the other hand, really could sing quite decently > if not operatically, and his speech-song was part of his character in > "Music Man." > > John > -- Scot Hanna-Weir Music Engraver A-R Editions, Inc. Middleton, WI -- www.areditions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:55 PM, John Howell wrote: At 1:25 PM -0400 4/7/06, Phil Daley wrote: It is performance art. I still maintain that there is no such thing, but if you enjoy the euphony of the words, enjoy them! Just don't look for semantic content. Now you're being as bad as Phil. My dictionary (The American Heritage College Dictionary, third edition) defines it as "A form of art in which thematically related works in a variety of media are presented simultaneously or successively to an audience." That is semantic content. You may not like the meaning, you may not like the term, you may not like the thing itself--but you don't get to arbitrarily alter the English language. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 7, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Phil Daley wrote: If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. It is performance art. Thanks for making my point. Phil, where in the world did you get such a narrow definition of music? I don't know ANYONE who defines music so narrowly. This, to me, is the key point. Individuals don't get to change the meaning of common words by fiat, like Humpty Dumpty in _Alice in Wonderland_. Words mean what they do by concensus of those who use the language in which the word occurs. Phil's definition of "music" has no concensus behind it even as *a* meaning of music, much less *the* meaning. If I say that "music" means "tree," that will not make it mean "tree" *even to me* no matter how often or how emphatically I say otherwise. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Phil Daley wrote: If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. It is performance art. Which brings us back around to percussion ensembles again. Since we've now come more than full circle, don't you think its time we gave this topic a rest? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 1:25 PM -0400 4/7/06, Phil Daley wrote: If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. Hmm. My music history class was listening to Cowell's "The Banshee" this afternoon. Do you happen to know how its pitches are notated? And do you consider Shoenberg's Sprechtstimme music? Would you change your mind if he had used x-notes to indicate relative pitches. It is performance art. I still maintain that there is no such thing, but if you enjoy the euphony of the words, enjoy them! Just don't look for semantic content. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 12:38 PM -0400 4/7/06, Phil Daley wrote: At 4/7/2006 11:33 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >Indeed he could not. Having him speak the lyrics in rhythm was a desperate kludge that turned out to be perfect for the character. Each of the songs does in fact have a clear melody that you can hear in the orchestra; the combination of this w. Harrison's spoken delivery results in a combined effect very close to what one would experience if he had actually been singing. My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have replicated that part? Of course. Couldn't you? X-noteheads have been used to represent relative pitch in speech for rather a long time. But I submit that there is no such person as a performer unaware of previous performances. Only a fool would audition for the King unaware of Yul Bryner, or Prof. Higgins unaware of Rex Harrison. After all, they created the roles! If you have to invoke a fantasy world I'm afraid you're on shaky ground. Robert Preston, on the other hand, really could sing quite decently if not operatically, and his speech-song was part of his character in "Music Man." John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I'm sure Phil is perfectly aware that claiming there was no music before there was music notation is an indefensible position. It's just that his hatred of rap, rappers, illegal immigrants, African percussion and the like have gotten him backed into a corner. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Chuck Israels wrote: On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Phil Daley wrote: If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. Hmmmn. There have been quite a few drum solos I've heard, and un- pitched percussion compositions, that I'd be loathe to exclude from the experiences I think of as music. On the other hand, I'm sure we've all heard some that we'd like to forget and which were easy to exclude from the concept of "music" (but not for the reasons Peter is claiming.) :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Phil Daley wrote: At 4/7/2006 01:05 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >On Apr 7, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Phil Daley wrote: > >> My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, >> such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have >> replicated that part? >> > >Well yes, of course: you'd write the rhythm out on a single line and >underlay the lyrics beneath it just as if it were to be sung. Put a >notation above the staff saying: "text to be spoken, in this rhythm." >What's the problem? If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. It is performance art. Thanks for making my point. You just threw out the entire canon of folk music around the globe for which there is no written tradition, thus no notated pitches. Nice! No notated pitches == non-music? I'm not sure percussionists would agree with you. I sure as heck don't! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Mark D Lew wrote: On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Phil Daley wrote: My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have replicated that part? I almost sounds as if you're assuming that Rex Harrison's particular interpretation *is* the part. I've nothing against how Harrison performs the song, but it's not what the composer wrote. Sort of sounds like many orchestras when they try to play Mahler. ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Phil Daley wrote: If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. It is performance art. Thanks for making my point. Phil, where in the world did you get such a narrow definition of music? I don't know ANYONE who defines music so narrowly. For that matter, there are PLENTY of notated pitches, along with non-notated pitches, and unpitched notation, in a lot of music. Is no piece that has a drum part music to you? Does ANY amount of rhythmic speech in a song disqualify it immediately as music to you? What should we call music that isn't entirely notated pitches that existed before the term "performance art" existed? What do we call music that isn't written down? I don't know whether you are being deliberately argumentative for entertainment value or not. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I think you are giving music notation way more credit than it deserves. I'm probably saying this on the wrong board, but it'd really, as others said, be a shame to have such a constraining definition of what music is. So much 20th century music that is very much music almost defies notation. I'm not sure you'd be happy to exclude music that is difficult to fairly reproduce with other performers based on notation. Seems a little over the top. -Scot Hanna-Weir On 4/7/06 12:30 PM, "Phil Daley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Speeches and poems are performance art, they are NOT music. And, I cannot > imagine that you were able to notate them as exactly reproducible with > pitches. > > My point has been, all along, that, if you cannot notate a part to be > fairly reproducible with other performers, it is NOT music. > > It is all some kind of performance art. > > And rap perfectly fits that description. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Well, whereas rap is music, music is not necessarily notated. So, to answer your question...er, not me. (though I actually have, that's the funny part). -Scot Hanna-Weir Music Engraver A-R Editions, Inc. Middleton, WI www.areditions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 4/7/06 11:38 AM, "Phil Daley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 4/7/2006 11:33 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > >> On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Peter Taylor wrote: >> >>> Whenever the "speaking" of songs instead of singing them is the topic, >>> I'm always reminded of Rex Harrison as Professor Higgins in the London >>> stage production of My Fair Lady. He had a wonderful speaking voice, >>> but you get the definite impression he couldn't sing a note. >>> >> >> Indeed he could not. Having him speak the lyrics in rhythm was a >> desperate kludge that turned out to be perfect for the character. Each >> of the songs does in fact have a clear melody that you can hear in the >> orchestra; the combination of this w. Harrison's spoken delivery >> results in a combined effect very close to what one would experience if >> he had actually been singing. > > My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, such > that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have replicated > that part? > > And, here is a question for notaters in general: > > If rap is music. How many of you would be interested in notating it? > > Phil Daley < AutoDesk > > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Phil Daley wrote: If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. Hmmmn. There have been quite a few drum solos I've heard, and un- pitched percussion compositions, that I'd be loathe to exclude from the experiences I think of as music. Chuck It is performance art. Thanks for making my point. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/7/2006 01:07 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >But what does our interest in notating it have to do with anything? I >wrote it down because I had to, like a lot of what I do, not because I >was particularly interested in it. The fact that is WAS notatable is >not germane to any real definition of music, either. I have transcribed >lots of things that were not music, like speeches and poems; the mere >fact that I was able to notate them does not make them music. Speeches and poems are performance art, they are NOT music. And, I cannot imagine that you were able to notate them as exactly reproducible with pitches. My point has been, all along, that, if you cannot notate a part to be fairly reproducible with other performers, it is NOT music. It is all some kind of performance art. And rap perfectly fits that description. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/7/2006 01:05 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >On Apr 7, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Phil Daley wrote: > >> My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, >> such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have >> replicated that part? >> > >Well yes, of course: you'd write the rhythm out on a single line and >underlay the lyrics beneath it just as if it were to be sung. Put a >notation above the staff saying: "text to be spoken, in this rhythm." >What's the problem? If there are no notated pitches, it is not music. It is performance art. Thanks for making my point. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Phil Daley wrote:
My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins,
such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have
replicated that part?
Short answer, yes.
The score of My Fair Lady has parts (not all) of HIggins' songs written
out in unpitched notation ("Why Can't Woman Be Like A Man" "Let A
Woman In Your Life"). Also, check out Menotti, many parts of many
operas, operettas, and vocal works. It IS doable. How much of the
inflection would be exactly replicable is up for discussion, but that
is the case with just about ANY music. You don't seem to have a point
here.
And, here is a question for notaters in general:
If rap is music. How many of you would be interested in notating it?
Once again, you seem to have a singular knack for non-sequiturs.
I've notated rap a number of times. I don't manage to get down all the
inflections, but that wasn't the point. The point of it WAS to get it
down in a way that it could be studied and performed, perhaps not
exactly as the original performer did it, but in a stylistically
appropriate way, just as students of jazz sometimes perform
transcriptions of improvisations and wedding bands perform covers of
popular tunes.
I have notated both the bed tracks and the vocals, and neither one was
any more difficult than any other pop music transcription I've done,
and considerably easier than a lot of jazz transcriptions.
But what does our interest in notating it have to do with anything? I
wrote it down because I had to, like a lot of what I do, not because I
was particularly interested in it. The fact that is WAS notatable is
not germane to any real definition of music, either. I have transcribed
lots of things that were not music, like speeches and poems; the mere
fact that I was able to notate them does not make them music.
Christopher
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Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Phil Daley wrote: My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have replicated that part? I almost sounds as if you're assuming that Rex Harrison's particular interpretation *is* the part. I've nothing against how Harrison performs the song, but it's not what the composer wrote. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 7, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Phil Daley wrote: My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have replicated that part? Well yes, of course: you'd write the rhythm out on a single line and underlay the lyrics beneath it just as if it were to be sung. Put a notation above the staff saying: "text to be spoken, in this rhythm." What's the problem? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/7/2006 11:33 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Peter Taylor wrote: > >> Whenever the "speaking" of songs instead of singing them is the topic, >> I'm always reminded of Rex Harrison as Professor Higgins in the London >> stage production of My Fair Lady. He had a wonderful speaking voice, >> but you get the definite impression he couldn't sing a note. >> > >Indeed he could not. Having him speak the lyrics in rhythm was a >desperate kludge that turned out to be perfect for the character. Each >of the songs does in fact have a clear melody that you can hear in the >orchestra; the combination of this w. Harrison's spoken delivery >results in a combined effect very close to what one would experience if >he had actually been singing. My question is, could you have notated a part for Professors Higgins, such that, a performer unaware of previous performances, could have replicated that part? And, here is a question for notaters in general: If rap is music. How many of you would be interested in notating it? Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Peter Taylor wrote: Whenever the "speaking" of songs instead of singing them is the topic, I'm always reminded of Rex Harrison as Professor Higgins in the London stage production of My Fair Lady. He had a wonderful speaking voice, but you get the definite impression he couldn't sing a note. Indeed he could not. Having him speak the lyrics in rhythm was a desperate kludge that turned out to be perfect for the character. Each of the songs does in fact have a clear melody that you can hear in the orchestra; the combination of this w. Harrison's spoken delivery results in a combined effect very close to what one would experience if he had actually been singing. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy
Yes, as I said previously, G&S patter songs are notated pitches, and usually performed that way, or as close to that way as the performer can get (I play in the orchestra for NY Gilbert & Sullivan Players)... Good example with My Fair Lady, but I wonder if the song was notated with pitches? I'm guessing yes and Rex Harrison just did not have the ear for it (or he chose to speak not sing pitches)... anyone know that score? -Steve NYC In a message dated 4/6/06 4:53:52 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Peter Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy To: Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original David W. Fenton wrote > On 1 Apr 2006 at 0:05, Robert C L Watson wrote: >> And their origins are G&S patter >> songs and Noel Coward. > > They are both words spoken rhythmically > to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch > contours at times and less definite at others. Not wishing to ignite any flames here, but I have been through all my G&S scores and, without exception, all the patter songs have a written note for each syllable. What's more, in my (amateur) experience, the songs are always sung (pretty quickly, that's true), but never spoken. In the Major General's song the spoken words "lot of news, lot of news" etc, are actually not written in the score, just a grand fermata, so that may have been a later development. But of course, traditions may be different where you are. Whenever the "speaking" of songs instead of singing them is the topic, I'm always reminded of Rex Harrison as Professor Higgins in the London stage production of My Fair Lady. He had a wonderful speaking voice, but you get the definite impression he couldn't sing a note. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
David W. Fenton wrote On 1 Apr 2006 at 0:05, Robert C L Watson wrote: And their origins are G&S patter songs and Noel Coward. They are both words spoken rhythmically to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch contours at times and less definite at others. Not wishing to ignite any flames here, but I have been through all my G&S scores and, without exception, all the patter songs have a written note for each syllable. What's more, in my (amateur) experience, the songs are always sung (pretty quickly, that's true), but never spoken. In the Major General's song the spoken words "lot of news, lot of news" etc, are actually not written in the score, just a grand fermata, so that may have been a later development. But of course, traditions may be different where you are. Whenever the "speaking" of songs instead of singing them is the topic, I'm always reminded of Rex Harrison as Professor Higgins in the London stage production of My Fair Lady. He had a wonderful speaking voice, but you get the definite impression he couldn't sing a note. Peter ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 4, 2006, at 2:17 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: I too enjoy assonance. I happen to feel that a lot of the rhymes in rap are not assonance, but merely "close enough". One time there is a perfect rhymne, another time you dignify it with the term "assonance". To put it simply, it's like the composer who fully intends the consecutive fifths and the third-rater who just happens to write that way. OK, so you and I disagree on this. Frankly, I have difficulty understanding what they are trying to say. They don't enunciate. Well, there's one point we do agree on. I hate it when rappers don't speak clearly. Not only does it mean I can't understand what they're saying, but it's also part of a general pattern whereby they're just making noise and don't care about actually communicating to the listener. Then again, I could say the exact same thing about opera singers ... as, in fact, I do. A great many opera singers are horrible enunciators, but that doesn't make me dislike opera. It just makes me better appreciate the ones who do. With rap, it's not just a matter of enunciation; it's about production. Pretty much all rap is recorded or at least amplified. Mixing the recording so that the vocal part is comprehensible is an artistic choice -- which apparently some artists elect not to make. I think part of Eminem's success comes from the fact that you can understand what he's saying without effort. [Also Rob, in a different post] BTW, it is "parlando". Parlato, parlando. Either makes sense. You're right that "parlando" is more common in scores, but I've seen both. (For example, in Butterfly, when Cio-Cio-San says "uno, due, tre" before getting all the relatives to bow, that's marked "parlato".) I probably chose "parlato" unconsciously because it made more grammatical sense in the (macaronic) sentence that I wrote. Past participle vs present participle. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy-haiku
Just brilliant! Cheers Keith in OZ Keith Helgesen. Director of Music, Canberra City Band. Ph: (02) 62910787. Mob 0417-042171 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 8:22 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy My favourite poem is that wonderful Haiku by John Cooper Clark; To express oneself In seventeen syllables Is very diffic All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg" http://lawrenceyates.co.uk Dulcian Wind Quintet: http://dulcianwind.co.uk -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/300 - Release Date: 3/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/300 - Release Date: 3/04/2006 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
My favourite poem is that wonderful Haiku by John Cooper Clark; To express oneselfIn seventeen syllablesIs very diffic All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.ukDulcian Wind Quintet: http://dulcianwind.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy O T
On 04 Apr 2006, at 5:46 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: Please tell us which rappers "fit any word and words desired into 4/4 time" without regard to rhythmic placement. Be specific. It would take up too much bandwidth to list them all Okay, name one. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 4, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: Robert C L Watson wrote: Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. (Back to the topic of literacy.) Hardly comparable to sophisticated works from musical theatre. What gets to me is that this *exact same* criticism was leveled at folk music 40 years ago: "The tune don't have to be clever And it don't matterifyouputacoupleofextrasyllables into a line, It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English, And it don't even gotta rhyme--excuse me, 'rhyne.' " --Tom Lehrer, 1964 Heh, heh! I don't think it was "criticism" per se, just very clever satire (yet with an element of truth, like all good satire!) (my daughter is learning the periodic table in school, so I pulled out Lehrer's "The Elements" for her; she cracked up.) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy O T
Hi, just lurking, but had to say this: > I admit it: I don't like rap. I don't understand it. > It is irritating to me. I prefer real music. So there we are back at what is music. I don't understand quantum physics. I prefer Newtonian physics. So am I qualified to dismiss the work of a century's worth of scientists when I know I am ignorant of it? This debate has spiralled into a slapping match over whether something as banal as rap should be allowed under our precious umbrella. And the ones pushing it out the hardest do not understand it, cannot cite examples, and simply express venom toward it. Would you like a rock critic to write a review of your classical/twelve-tone/whatever composition? Of course not; he doesn't understand the genre, has no valid comparisons to bring to the table, and will likely as not base his reaction on his gut. Yet that's exactly what the greatest nay-sayers are doing in this argument. Bottom line - we don't get to choose what is and is not Music. We simply get to pick what we want to hear (that's why the radio comes equipped with a knob), and deal with it from there. The excercise of proving or disproving rap's musicality or artistic worth is futile and divisive. Let's allow our grandchildren (or even their grandchildren) to handle that question. -- Neal Schermerhorn ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 4, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: There was a young lady of Worcester Who ucester crow like a rorcester. She ucester climb Two trees at a time, But her sicester ucester borcester. Very good! But it works better with a British accent, like Flanders and Swann rhyming "horn" with "gone." Damn those illiterate Brits! 8-) (No flames, please! I was joking! See the smiley?) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Robert C L Watson wrote: Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. (Back to the topic of literacy.) Hardly comparable to sophisticated works from musical theatre. What gets to me is that this *exact same* criticism was leveled at folk music 40 years ago: "The tune don't have to be clever And it don't matterifyouputacoupleofextrasyllables into a line, It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English, And it don't even gotta rhyme--excuse me, 'rhyne.' " --Tom Lehrer, 1964 Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy O T
"David W. Fenton" iterated It's *not* fine to use specious arguments to claim there's no art whatsoever in it. I never said "there's no art whatsoever in it." ;-) That must have been you. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
dhbailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Do you really mean to assert that Shakespeare or Swinburne never > stretch-ed [2 syllables] words to make them fit? Nor ever contracted > them just to squeeze them in? When did "ever" become one syllable > "e'er" I would like to know? That's not the best example, since I believe the original pronunciation of words like stretched was the two-syllable form. The fact that we now pronounce it with just one syllable is as much an example of synalepha as e'er. -- Stephen L. Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG fingerprint: A1BF 5A81 03E7 47CE 71E0 3BD4 8DA6 9268 5BB6 4BBE '"For the past two days I've been on the river with an Oxford don who quotes Herodotus, a lovesick young man who quotes Tennyson, a bulldog, and a cat," I said. "I played it by ear."' -- To Say Nothing of the Dog, Connie Willis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 3:58 AM -0400 4/4/06, Robert C L Watson wrote: They may have come before the genre we call rap, but I fail to see any difference whatsoever in the musical content involved, except for the underlying musical style. They are both words spoken rhythmically to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch contours at times and less definite at others. Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, Well, that's your interpretation. I find that much of it (not that I listen to much of it!) makes very creative use of cross-rhythms without losing the basic meter. and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. (Back to the topic of literacy.) Hardly comparable to sophisticated works from musical theatre. Only two comments: (1) I find "time" and "fine" a perfectly good rhyme, much better than much of Shakespeare since vowels have shifted phonemes since his day; (2) the rap genre deliberately seeks to mirror inner city ghetto dialect (remember "Ebonics"?!). Musical theater in general does not. So? The idea that rap doesn't involve pitch baffles me. There's a helluva lot of subtlety to the vocal delivery that is not just in the incredibly complex rhythms -- there is shape to the vocal lines as well. The rhythms are complex because there is no discipline. It is a case of fitting any word and words desired into 4/4 time. It's a long way down from Shakespeare or Swinburne. Again, your interpretation on at least two different levels. It isn't fitting any word in. You come across horrible examples of that in the case of anyone without a poetic sense trying to fit contrafactum words to an existing tune. It's a much more sophisticated fitting stressed and unstressed syllable into the prevailing meter, and that's about as sophisticated as you can get in handling words. I agree completely with David F: stop trying to impose your interpretations of what music is or should be on everybody else, and you are perfectly free to dislike or even hate rap. (As Pete Barbudi said, "There is no bad music ... except Hawaiian!") John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
"There was a young woman named Bea Who was stung on the arm by a wasp. When asked, "Does it hurt?" She replied, "Yes, it does. I'm just glad it wasn't a hornet!" Ooh! Ooh! Then we must also quote the immortal: There was a young lady of Diss Who went down to the water to swim. The men in a punt Stuck an oar in her eye, And caused her incredible pain. And perhaps more germane to the topic at hand: There was a young lady of Worcester Who ucester crow like a rorcester. She ucester climb Two trees at a time, But her sicester ucester borcester. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy O T
On 4 Apr 2006 at 5:46, Robert C L Watson wrote: [Darcy, again unattributed:] > > Please tell us which rappers > > "fit any word and words desired into 4/4 time" > > without regard to rhythmic placement. Be specific. > > It would take up too much bandwidth to list them all Supply ONE example then. > Besides which, this discussion is so far off topic. I'm done. No > more. No, you're quitting because you can't support your bald assertion. It's fine to not like rap. It's *not* fine to use specious arguments to claim there's no art whatsoever in it. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 4 Apr 2006 at 4:38, Robert C L Watson wrote: [Darcy, unattributed, saying something with which I wholeheartedly agree:] > > What a breathtakingly ignorant statement. > > OOh! rap is great high art eh? Some of might be, some of it clearly isn't. Just like all genres of music. But of course, the current discussion was not over whether rap is "high art" (there's a thicket of huge problems involved with *that* term by itself!), but over whether or not it is music. I wouldn't call the parlando examples from the Music Man or G&S "high art," either. But you have stated that there's something musically completely different about the makeup of those parlando "songs" (which you recognize as music) and rap. I can't see any significant difference at all in terms of the musical materials being used. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 4, 2006, at 5:17 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: More generally, what I love about rap is how it explores the beauty of the spoken language, in a way that one can't achieve with poetry or music alone. Frankly, I have difficulty understanding what they are trying to say. That might be a dialect issue. I have trouble understanding lots of English dialects, including Scots and Eastern Canadian. But that is completely separate from whether rap is music, or art, or good, or whether we like it or not. They don't enunciate. Neither do opera singers. Not in the way that people speaking the same words would do. Nor do pop singers, or jazz singers. Again, it is beside the point. And, it all seems to me to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. That would make it no different from most pop music, if that were true. There is good rap and bad rap, along with rap that panders and rap that attempts to make a social statement. But still, that doesn't define it as music or not. I admit it: I don't like rap. I don't understand it. It is irritating to me. And I admit I don't like Mozart particularly. I think I DO understand it (after years of studying it school, performing it and having it shoved down my throat in every second concert I attend I had better have an understanding of it) but once again, that is beside the point of whether music that one doesn't like, doesn't understand, or has no reference for is still music. I prefer real music. Hmm. So do I, though not exclusively. Mozart is not "real" music to me, though I still admit it is music. Why can't you do the same for rap? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 4, 2006, at 4:32 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Apr 4, 2006, at 12:58 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. I love assonance. One of the reasons I have such affection for today's rap is that it has made the way for creative use of assonance, so long neglected as a result of formal rules of rhyme which you so Beckmesserishly allude to. More generally, what I love about rap is how it explores the beauty of the spoken language, in a way that one can't achieve with poetry or music alone. I am with you here. There are many more ways to create unity and show affinity between words than a strict rhyme (in which English is notoriously poor, compared with other languages.) Too much rhyming sounds hokey to a modern ear, IMHO, and use of assonance is most definitely not a symptom of illiteracy (though I admit is is possible that some rappers ARE illiterate.) Christopher "There was a young woman named Bea Who was stung on the arm by a wasp. When asked, "Does it hurt?" She replied, "Yes, it does. I'm just glad it wasn't a hornet!" ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
> Do you really mean to assert that Shakespeare or Swinburne never stretch-ed [2 syllables] words to make them fit? 'twas once upon a time actually pronounced that way. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy O T
Please tell us which rappers "fit any word and words desired into 4/4 time" without regard to rhythmic placement. Be specific. It would take up too much bandwidth to list them all ... :-) Besides which, this discussion is so far off topic. I'm done. No more. We all have our tastes and interests. My use of Finale is for my own purposes and for a few of my works that have been published. I don't write rap, and wouldn't need a program such as Finale to notate it if I did. 'Nuff said! -Rob ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Robert C L Watson wrote: They may have come before the genre we call rap, but I fail to see any difference whatsoever in the musical content involved, except for the underlying musical style. They are both words spoken rhythmically to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch contours at times and less definite at others. Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. (Back to the topic of literacy.) Hardly comparable to sophisticated works from musical theatre. That sort of rhyme is used throughout literary history -- to denigrate rap artists for using the same sorts of "almost rhyme" that major poets and songwriters of the "great American songbook" have used to great success tells me there's more to this dismissal of rap music than real artistic judgement, and that bothers me most of all in this whole discussion. The idea that rap doesn't involve pitch baffles me. There's a helluva lot of subtlety to the vocal delivery that is not just in the incredibly complex rhythms -- there is shape to the vocal lines as well. The rhythms are complex because there is no discipline. It is a case of fitting any word and words desired into 4/4 time. It's a long way down from Shakespeare or Swinburne. Do you really mean to assert that Shakespeare or Swinburne never stretch-ed [2 syllables] words to make them fit? Nor ever contracted them just to squeeze them in? When did "ever" become one syllable "e'er" I would like to know? Yet great verbal artists have used that contraction for centuries -- shall we call every one of them who made such a "fitting of any word" non-artistic? I guess you must have a different edition than I've ever seen, then, because my Shakespeare has lots of apostrophes in words which should have had more letters. Maybe I just bought the cheap edition so they omitted letters to save money? The rhythms of many folk songs from many different countries are complex for the very same reason you are putting down rap -- are you really asserting that any music which utilizes complex nested tuplet-type rhythms isn't very good? I must admit I am really surprised by the assertions being made in this discussion -- if Schoenberg had written those same rhythms (Pierrot Lunaire is full of complex rhythms, fitting speech to song and removing the clearly delineated pitch of a fixed-pitch scale in order to get subtle nuances of speech) we wouldn't be having this discussion. But because it's music made up by people who don't have the same high degree of musical education we do, for some reason a lot of people seem to feel it's alright to disparage it? I just don't get it. Verbal artists (poets, dramatists, novelists) have always played around with language, it's their primary tool, yet because rap artists do the same thing, suddenly it's not art? Let's toss eecummings out of the literary canon, then, too, since he didn't follow the accepted rules of punctuation and capitalization! Sonny Rollins? Throw him outof all the music history books because he'll walk out on stage and simply improvise for 30 minutes, using rhythms which some might look on as having no discipline. Maybe it's jealousy we're really reading here -- jealousy that these rap artists with their minimal music education are making lots of money and their music is far more popular than any of our music is, with our collegiate and post-graduate degrees. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
hello Mark, Thanks for addressing the argument, instead of smart alec comments like a few others. I too enjoy assonance. I happen to feel that a lot of the rhymes in rap are not assonance, but merely "close enough". One time there is a perfect rhymne, another time you dignify it with the term "assonance". To put it simply, it's like the composer who fully intends the consecutive fifths and the third-rater who just happens to write that way. ... I love assonance. One of the reasons I have such affection for today's rap is that it has made the way for creative use of assonance, so long neglected as a result of formal rules of rhyme which you so Beckmesserishly allude to. Yes, Meistersinger is a great comic opera. I understand your "dig" at me. More generally, what I love about rap is how it explores the beauty of the spoken language, in a way that one can't achieve with poetry or music alone. Frankly, I have difficulty understanding what they are trying to say. They don't enunciate. And, it all seems to me to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Just as one list member recalled of the Pop Idol reality show: you've had musical training - we don't want your talent. I make no apologies: I am not generally a fan of pop music. Sorry. The rhythms are complex because there is no discipline. It is a case of fitting any word and words desired into 4/4 time. It's a long way down from Shakespeare or Swinburne. But that's exactly the art. A good performance is about fitting and coloring the syllables with just the right rhythm to best bring out the beatiful patterns of sounds that don't come through with simple tetrametric delivery. (And I might add that a great many Shakespearean actors could learn a lot from quality rap.) Twenty-some years ago it was said that many "classical" performers could learn how to perform Bach from the The Swingle Singers. I think we have got beyond that. An actor might learn something from a rapper, but I think study of the libretto of a play would teach more. Funny how your attempt to denigrate rap reminds me of exactly what it is I like so much about it. I am happy that you and others enjoy it. I have musical interests that some would probably scoff at. Taste is hard to argue about. I admit it: I don't like rap. I don't understand it. It is irritating to me. I prefer real music. So there we are back at what is music. -rob mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 31/03/2006 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 04 Apr 2006, at 4:38 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: What a breathtakingly ignorant statement. OOh! rap is great high art eh? Well, that's a separate question (several questions, actually) that's got nothing to do with what you actually wrote, nor my response. But enlighten us. Please tell us which rappers "fit any word and words desired into 4/4 time" without regard to rhythmic placement. Be specific. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
What a breathtakingly ignorant statement. OOh! rap is great high art eh? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 4, 2006, at 12:58 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. I love assonance. One of the reasons I have such affection for today's rap is that it has made the way for creative use of assonance, so long neglected as a result of formal rules of rhyme which you so Beckmesserishly allude to. More generally, what I love about rap is how it explores the beauty of the spoken language, in a way that one can't achieve with poetry or music alone. The rhythms are complex because there is no discipline. It is a case of fitting any word and words desired into 4/4 time. It's a long way down from Shakespeare or Swinburne. But that's exactly the art. A good performance is about fitting and coloring the syllables with just the right rhythm to best bring out the beatiful patterns of sounds that don't come through with simple tetrametric delivery. (And I might add that a great many Shakespearean actors could learn a lot from quality rap.) Funny how your attempt to denigrate rap reminds me of exactly what it is I like so much about it. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
- "Rap" and "hip hop" aren't quite the same thing, ... Thus, one might reasonably say that the parlato songs in The Music Man are a form of rap (but not hip hop); while on the other hand a certain style of clothing might be described as hip hop (but not rap). Ah ha! So, there you make a distinction. I see. BTW, it is "parlando". -Rob ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 04 Apr 2006, at 3:58 AM, Robert C L Watson wrote: The rhythms are complex because there is no discipline. What a breathtakingly ignorant statement. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
They may have come before the genre we call rap, but I fail to see any difference whatsoever in the musical content involved, except for the underlying musical style. They are both words spoken rhythmically to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch contours at times and less definite at others. Current commercial (c)rap - not that I can bear to listen to it for long - is sloppy and irregular in metre, and has either non-rhymes such as "time" and "fine", or other symptoms of illiteracy. (Back to the topic of literacy.) Hardly comparable to sophisticated works from musical theatre. The idea that rap doesn't involve pitch baffles me. There's a helluva lot of subtlety to the vocal delivery that is not just in the incredibly complex rhythms -- there is shape to the vocal lines as well. The rhythms are complex because there is no discipline. It is a case of fitting any word and words desired into 4/4 time. It's a long way down from Shakespeare or Swinburne. -Rob ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I never meant to imply that one thread is influenced by the other. I'm just saying that if rap is broadly defined as the general art of rhythmic recitation of verse -- which I think is a reasonable definition -- then there has been plenty of rap throughout history besides the current movement. Who has broadly defined it that way? It is still a different genre. Rap is what it is. It is anachronistic to apply the term to parts of _The Music Man_, let alone _Facade_ by Sitwell and Walton. I don't think Schubert was influenced by Irish bards either, but I think it's reasonable to label either of them as "song". But I would not call an instrumental composition a song, and yet many young people use that term in that way when they mean a tune or melody. I know a man who talks about playing the piano. It doesn't matter if it is the pipe organ at the church he really is referring to. All the same to him. Keyboard instrument. Those black and white key thingies. I absolutely believe we who know better need to make distinctions. "No, no, not intelligent." - W S Gilbert: _Princess Ida_. -Rob ___ Robert C L Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] organ tuner.organist/choir director composer.baritone.piper gardener.beekeeper home winemaker photographer homebrewer G&S nut _ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 3 Apr 2006 at 14:06, Phil Daley wrote: > At 4/3/2006 01:55 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > > >> >> I agree that improvisation is not notatable. > > > >Somehow this false assumption got into the thread, and needs to be > >expunged. > >While it is *arguable* that jazz improvisation cannot be notated (I > >don't, myself, agree), it is unquestionable that products of the > >organ improvisation tradition, in the style of Bach, > >Vierne, etc. are as perfectly notatable as their models, since they > >obey the exact same rhythmic and pitch constraints. > > > >There are > >quite a few pieces of keyboard music, violin solos, etc. in the > >literature that started out as improvisations, but which the > >creators then thought so much of that they wrote them down as fixed > >compositions--so, clearly, they must have been notatable in the > >first place! > > I was agreeing with David, I thought, to jazz improvisation. You're perhaps agreeing with something I didn't say. I never said jazz improvisation couldn't be notated. I just said it was very *difficult* to do it accurately. > But, I think you have made a good point. It seems to me that you start with an a priori judgment, that you don't like rap, and then, presuming that you don't like it because it's not music, you then twist the definitions of music to fit your conclusion. The result is a very tortured definition of music, one that breaks down over and over again. That this is the case might cause you to question your a priori judgment that rap is not music. Once you've recognized that by all reasonable definitions rap is still music, you are still completely free to dislike rap. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 3 Apr 2006 at 7:29, dhbailey wrote: > I'm not sure what your point is in insisting that something isn't > music if it can't be written down. I'm not even sure what Phil hopes to accomplish by even making the assertion, since it doesn't even apply to rap, which can certainly be written down as accurately as a lot of pieces of music that I'm certain Phil wouldn't dispute as being music. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
John Bell wrote: On Apr 3, 2006, at 6:29 AM, Phil Daley wrote: How about art? Is the an art masterpiece that is not on canvas? It's an entirely false analogy. But since you ask: Leonardo's Last Supper, Michelangelo's David... Not to mention the Mona Lisa. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 16:53 03.04.2006, I wrote:
Invalid comparison. Literature and painting are creative arts.
Once completed, they are what they are. Music (and dance and
theater) are both creative and recreative arts. It is in the
recreation that each such work of art is different, by a little or
by a lot, every time it is recreated. Notation is not performance.
At 6:32 PM +0200 4/3/06, Kurt Gnos wrote:
I think we must discern between notation, interpretation and recorded music.
Of course. I thought that was my point, although recordings have not
been introduced into the discussion until this moment.
While interpretation may be comparable with painting a painting,
No, my point was that composition is the creative art comparable to
painting a painting; recreation (my term) or performance has no
analog in painting.
interpretation would be following close directions and adding some
personal touch, recorded music may be compared to a painting, as
long as we still agree the painter is following directions as "now
paint, just at the top left, a small red (blood-red, shade 30%)
line, 3 mm (or inches, whatever), slightly whiggly (trill), and then
switch to blue (aquamarin) and ...)
Some people paint smaller dots, or take a different (wrong?) red
shade, or paint "to thick"... See what I mean?
Sure, except painters don't paint that way (excluding the
paint-by-numbers crowd, of course!). I have come to realize that
recording is a separate and distinct art form, similar in some ways
to live performance but not at all identical to it, in the same way
that painting and photography are different art forms. And a
recording is a freezing in time of a particular interpretation which
may have existed at only that one moment in time, so yes, in that it
is like a painting freezing in time a scene that may never again
exist.
There is a wonderful passage in "Stranger in a Strange Land," where
they are discussing, I think, Rodin. (I paraphrase from memory.)
"Any decent artist can show you an old woman. A really good artist
can show you the old woman and the young girl she once was. Only a
genius can show you the old woman and the young girl she still is,
inside."
A live recording of an improvisation may be the best musical analog
to a painting.
Sure. A freezing in time. And the artist may later come to hate
that recording when her ideas have matured and changed, or simply
because everybody wants to hear it "just like the recording."
And when you say now: Hey, but the painter knows (to a certain
degree) what to paint before he starts - Hey, so does the
("good") improviser...
Of course!!
John
--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/3/2006 01:55 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >> >> I agree that improvisation is not notatable. > >Somehow this false assumption got into the thread, and needs to be >expunged. > >While it is *arguable* that jazz improvisation cannot be notated (I >don't, myself, agree), it is unquestionable that products of the organ >improvisation tradition, in the style of Bach, Vierne, etc. are as >perfectly notatable as their models, since they obey the exact same >rhythmic and pitch constraints. > >There are quite a few pieces of keyboard music, violin solos, etc. in >the literature that started out as improvisations, but which the >creators then thought so much of that they wrote them down as fixed >compositions--so, clearly, they must have been notatable in the first >place! I was agreeing with David, I thought, to jazz improvisation. But, I think you have made a good point. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
>> I agree that improvisation is not notatable. Somehow this false assumption got into the thread, and needs to be expunged. While it is *arguable* that jazz improvisation cannot be notated (I don't, myself, agree), it is unquestionable that products of the organ improvisation tradition, in the style of Bach, Vierne, etc. are as perfectly notatable as their models, since they obey the exact same rhythmic and pitch constraints. There are quite a few pieces of keyboard music, violin solos, etc. in the literature that started out as improvisations, but which the creators then thought so much of that they wrote them down as fixed compositions--so, clearly, they must have been notatable in the first place! Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
I think we must discern between notation, interpretation and recorded music.
While interpretation may be comparable with painting a painting,
interpretation would be following close directions and adding some
personal touch, recorded music may be compared to a painting, as
long as we still agree the painter is following directions as "now
paint, just at the top left, a small red (blood-red, shade 30%) line,
3 mm (or inches, whatever), slightly whiggly (trill), and then switch
to blue (aquamarin) and ...)
Some people paint smaller dots, or take a different (wrong?) red
shade, or paint "to thick"... See what I mean?
Slightly more complicated than baking a cake.
A live recording of an improvisation may be the best musical analog
to a painting.
And when you say now: Hey, but the painter knows (to a certain
degree) what to paint before he starts - Hey, so does the
("good") improviser...
Kurt
At 16:53 03.04.2006, you wrote:
Invalid comparison. Literature and painting are creative
arts. Once completed, they are what they are. Music (and dance and
theater) are both creative and recreative arts. It is in the
recreation that each such work of art is different, by a little or
by a lot, every time it is recreated. Notation is not performance.
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Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 6:29 AM -0400 4/3/06, Phil Daley wrote: Compare it to literature. Is there a great piece of literature that hasn't been written down? How about art? Is the an art masterpiece that is not on canvas? Invalid comparison. Literature and painting are creative arts. Once completed, they are what they are. Music (and dance and theater) are both creative and recreative arts. It is in the recreation that each such work of art is different, by a little or by a lot, every time it is recreated. Notation is not performance. But yes, an enormous amount of great literature, including various epics and the entire Old Testament, was passed down as stories from memory for centuries before being written down. The writing down is not the creation of literature, merely its preservation in one artificial form. Notation is not performance. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
Phil Daley wrote: At 4/2/2006 10:34 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: > >On Apr 2, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Phil Daley wrote: > >> At 4/1/2006 08:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >> >> >But the requirement Phil is placing on these pieces is completely >> >arbitrary and if applied honestly would eliminate a lot of the works >> >he considers to be music. >> >> I agree that improvisation is not notatable. >> >> But, if an entire piece is improvisation, it is not music, it is >> performance art. >> > >Well, that's just plain wrong. > >What kind of extremely narrow definition of music do you have that >excludes improvisation from music? Or non-pitched elements? Or >difficult-to-notate elements? Or >inconsistently-reproducible-in-performance elements? Compare it to literature. Is there a great piece of literature that hasn't been written down? How about art? Is the an art masterpiece that is not on canvas? Since the root of "literature" refers to reading, your question is very disingenuous. By definition, literature has to be written down. By definition, music has to be heard. There's nothing in a definition of music that I've ever read or heard that states that it has to be written down. I'm not sure what your point is in insisting that something isn't music if it can't be written down. Can you cite ANY of the great reference works on music which supports your definition? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/3/2006 06:47 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: >Didn't we have this argument a year or so ago, and finally settle that >the written sheet music was just the recipe for the actual sound, and >NOT the actual music? Like confusing a recipe for cake with the actual >cake itself. Opps, sorry, I must have missed the discussion. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 3, 2006, at 6:29 AM, Phil Daley wrote: How about art? Is the an art masterpiece that is not on canvas? It's an entirely false analogy. But since you ask: Leonardo's Last Supper, Michelangelo's David... John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 3, 2006, at 6:29 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 4/2/2006 10:34 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: >What kind of extremely narrow definition of music do you have that >excludes improvisation from music? Or non-pitched elements? Or >difficult-to-notate elements? Or >inconsistently-reproducible-in-performance elements? Compare it to literature. Is there a great piece of literature that hasn't been written down? How about art? Is the an art masterpiece that is not on canvas? Who said anything about masterpieces (though yes, there ARE fine pieces of poetry, stories, etc., that haven't been written down; I don't know how to define masterpiece so I couldn't venture there) I thought we were talking about just music? In any case, your analogy is flawed; literature is communicated by writing it (or by saying it, but if it isn't written down you won't receive it unless you are there) and painting is communicated by paint (notice I redefined art to make your argument stronger, as sculpture is not on canvas, and watercolours are not on canvas). Music, however, is defined by sound, NOT by its written expression, so yes, there IS music that is not written down, even great music. Didn't we have this argument a year or so ago, and finally settle that the written sheet music was just the recipe for the actual sound, and NOT the actual music? Like confusing a recipe for cake with the actual cake itself. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/2/2006 12:49 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >On Apr 1, 2006, at 7:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > >> I thought he asked if different ensembles would sound the same >> playing from the score. Given that no two identical percussion >> instruments sound precisely the same, I'd say that it's unlikely that >> any two performances of Ionisation would sound identical. >> > >By that standard no two performances of Beethoven's 5th (by different >ensembles, wh. is what I think you are implying) would sound identical. >I don't think that's what Phil meant--at least, I hope not. That's what Cage thought, and I disagree with that. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/2/2006 10:34 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: > >On Apr 2, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Phil Daley wrote: > >> At 4/1/2006 08:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >> >> >But the requirement Phil is placing on these pieces is completely >> >arbitrary and if applied honestly would eliminate a lot of the works >> >he considers to be music. >> >> I agree that improvisation is not notatable. >> >> But, if an entire piece is improvisation, it is not music, it is >> performance art. >> > >Well, that's just plain wrong. > >What kind of extremely narrow definition of music do you have that >excludes improvisation from music? Or non-pitched elements? Or >difficult-to-notate elements? Or >inconsistently-reproducible-in-performance elements? Compare it to literature. Is there a great piece of literature that hasn't been written down? How about art? Is the an art masterpiece that is not on canvas? Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
At 5:38 PM -0700 4/2/06, Chuck Israels wrote: Ernst Toch wrote a choral piece I "sang" as a teenager that had no pitches. Some of the words were (please excuse my ignorance of German spelling, Johannes and others): Popocatepetl ist nicht in Canada, zunder in Mexico, Mexico, Mexico. That would be the "Geographical Fugue," entirely spoken, no instruments, no melody, and yes, it has to fit any reasonable definition of music. As far as I'm concerned , "performance art" is like "post-modern"--meaningless syllables. opinion> I later discovered that theater people know it as well, and use it for warmups. They do it monophonically rather than canonically, or at least the ones I heard did, and it's great for working on vocal inflections. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
Ernst Toch wrote a choral piece I "sang" as a teenager that had no pitches. Some of the words were (please excuse my ignorance of German spelling, Johannes and others): Popocatepetl ist nicht in Canada, zunder in Mexico, Mexico, Mexico. Whatever else it was, I remain under the impression that it was music we were "singing". It was interesting rhythm, texture, and timbral nuance, that's for sure. Maybe not enough for some, but at the level of variety and form I remember, it was music to me. Chuck On Apr 2, 2006, at 5:23 PM, dhbailey wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/2/06 1:02:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Stephen Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). Thanks, I should have remembered that one! Yes, the orchestra plays a chord after the last word (a kind of musical "Ta-da!"). All that happens during the number is rhythm (simulating the train sound) in the background. So while it's part of the show, with just those elements (speech and rhythm) to me it is more like performance-art (without the covering-oneself-with-mud someone else cited). Nothing wrong with it, it has it's attraction, value, worth, etc, but I just don't think of it as "music". (I'd say the same for percussion pieces that did not include any modulated tones.) Interesting -- I'm not sure Meredith Willson would agree with you, though. But of course, he wouldn't be any sort of expert on what music is, I'm sure. Not like the mavens on this list are, anyway. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/2/06 1:02:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Stephen Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). Thanks, I should have remembered that one! Yes, the orchestra plays a chord after the last word (a kind of musical "Ta-da!"). All that happens during the number is rhythm (simulating the train sound) in the background. So while it's part of the show, with just those elements (speech and rhythm) to me it is more like performance-art (without the covering-oneself-with-mud someone else cited). Nothing wrong with it, it has it's attraction, value, worth, etc, but I just don't think of it as "music". (I'd say the same for percussion pieces that did not include any modulated tones.) Interesting -- I'm not sure Meredith Willson would agree with you, though. But of course, he wouldn't be any sort of expert on what music is, I'm sure. Not like the mavens on this list are, anyway. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
And there go all classical improvisations from Bach over Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, even E. T. A. Hoffmann, and of course myself improvising...;-) Oh my god! I played a t the church today and did four improvisations. And I thought it was music...? This is ridiculous! Improvisation (in a good sence) is instant-composing, and many good pieces of classical music, jazz, rock and folklore are improvisations or at least based on improvisations. Good improvisation has still got a random quality (as the word says, un-pre-viewed), but is based on a sound knowledge of style, phrases, chords and form. As is good composition... All (or at least most) of the great composers throughout all styles of music have been great improvisers, and they improvised their music... Kurt At 19:37 02.04.2006, you wrote: At 8:37 AM -0400 4/2/06, Phil Daley wrote: But, if an entire piece is improvisation, it is not music, it is performance art. Oh darn, there goes Cage and everything aleatoric. And all good dixieland bands. And here they thought they were playing music! (Who knows what Cage thought!) I thought performance art was getting naked and covering yourself with chocolate. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 2, 2006, at 7:34 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: I must confess that Mark's earlier observation – saying "this is not music" is really saying "I don't like this music" – is starting to sound more and more true. Actually I observed only that that's the case for some people. My larger point was that rap is what it is regardless of how you choose to label it. If I might break the pattern whereby those who appreciate rap call it music and those who don't appreciate it say it isn't, I personally happen to think that Phil's formula of thinking of rap as a form of "performance art" rather than "music" is more conducive to appreciating rap for what it is. My own love for (some) rap came out of an interest in creative live poetry reading. My favorite style of rap is still the unaccompanied improvised street rap and the professional works that harken to that tradition. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy 2
In a message dated 4/2/06 1:02:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << From: Stephen Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got > Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). Thanks, I should have remembered that one! Yes, the orchestra plays a chord after the last word (a kind of musical "Ta-da!"). All that happens during the number is rhythm (simulating the train sound) in the background. So while it's part of the show, with just those elements (speech and rhythm) to me it is more like performance-art (without the covering-oneself-with-mud someone else cited). Nothing wrong with it, it has it's attraction, value, worth, etc, but I just don't think of it as "music". (I'd say the same for percussion pieces that did not include any modulated tones.) -Steve ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 1, 2006, at 7:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I thought he asked if different ensembles would sound the same playing from the score. Given that no two identical percussion instruments sound precisely the same, I'd say that it's unlikely that any two performances of Ionisation would sound identical. By that standard no two performances of Beethoven's 5th (by different ensembles, wh. is what I think you are implying) would sound identical. I don't think that's what Phil meant--at least, I hope not. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 8:37 AM -0400 4/2/06, Phil Daley wrote: But, if an entire piece is improvisation, it is not music, it is performance art. Oh darn, there goes Cage and everything aleatoric. And all good dixieland bands. And here they thought they were playing music! (Who knows what Cage thought!) I thought performance art was getting naked and covering yourself with chocolate. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 5:54 PM -0500 4/1/06, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 01 Apr 2006, at 5:40 PM, Peter Taylor wrote: But isn't that the point? They decided to promote their music themselves on MySpace Music presumably because the record companies couldn't recognise they had any prospect as moneyspinners (but I don't have any knowledge of that). I think the point is that they didn't *need* record company backing to succeed (at least not initially -- once they had generated some momentum on their own, their label certainly helped them get to the next level). But clearly, the days of record companies as exclusive gatekeepers are rapidly waning. And good riddance! Let's not forget that for the last--what? 20 years?--record companies have been functioning as promoters and distributors, NOT as producers. In fact today they EXPECT artists to produce their own masters and turn them over to the companies. When I was recording back in the '60s, there were still A & R people who actively tried to match up artists and songs, and who took responsibility for producing the actual recordings. No more. Of course the corollary is inescapable. With no gatekeepers, the market will be (is?) flooded with crap, and the artists who do have some talent will still have to cater to the fickle taste of their public. For every group that manages to have the kind of success Darcy describes, how many groups will go absolutely nowhere? John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 2, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 4/1/2006 08:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >But the requirement Phil is placing on these pieces is completely >arbitrary and if applied honestly would eliminate a lot of the works >he considers to be music. I agree that improvisation is not notatable. But, if an entire piece is improvisation, it is not music, it is performance art. Well, that's just plain wrong. What kind of extremely narrow definition of music do you have that excludes improvisation from music? Or non-pitched elements? Or difficult-to-notate elements? Or inconsistently-reproducible-in-performance elements? I must confess that Mark's earlier observation – saying "this is not music" is really saying "I don't like this music" – is starting to sound more and more true. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
At 4/1/2006 08:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >But the requirement Phil is placing on these pieces is completely >arbitrary and if applied honestly would eliminate a lot of the works >he considers to be music. I agree that improvisation is not notatable. But, if an entire piece is improvisation, it is not music, it is performance art. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The Music Man had "rap-like" passages (i.e. parts of "You've Got > Trouble") which led to fully pitched-tone cadences as the climax... Not all. "Rock Island", the opening number, is entirely spoken in rhythm (although I think the orchestra does play a chord after the last word). -- Stephen L. Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG fingerprint: A1BF 5A81 03E7 47CE 71E0 3BD4 8DA6 9268 5BB6 4BBE "Love your neighbor, forgive, keep your vows. And a mountain's no place to raise cows." -- Bat Boy: The Musical ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On Apr 1, 2006, at 5:21 AM, Peter Taylor wrote: With no disrespect to them, can you imagine Ringo Starr or Charlie Watts being given today's hyped-up promotion? Like the man said, theirs is not the sort of talent they're looking for. Not disputing your general point, but just to be clear: The young woman I was discussing in an earlier post did have the look of a TV starlet. She didn't act like one, but the raw material to (un)dress her up for sex appeal was certainly there. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 1 Apr 2006 at 13:51, Andrew Stiller wrote: > On Apr 1, 2006, at 1:04 PM, Phil Daley wrote: > > > Could you make a score of a "rap piece" so that another group could > > perform it and it would be identical to the original performance? > > (By which I mean, the same pitches.) > > Of course one could. Probably has. Which is not to say that there is > not a great deal of non-rap music that cannot be so notated. (Too many > negatives there! What I'm saying is that there is a lot of music other > than rap that cannot be notated clearly enough to allow perfect > duplication of a given performance. "Being for the Benefit of Mr. > Kite" comes to mind.) The part of Phil's stance about this that bothers me is the privilege it gives to notation. The fact that something is hard to notate precisely does not mean that it's not music. There's quite a lot of jazz that would be extremely difficult to notate because of the rhythmic complexity. There's lots of music that utilizes bent tones that don't fit very well onto our diatonic notation system. Both of these would make notating rap precisely quite difficult. But the issue that really bothers me is the idea that something has to be notatable in a fixed form that allows the work to be recreated in precisely the same form in order for it to be music. That would eliminate the greater bulk of all repertories based on improvisation (of which rap is one). > And I note that you've ignored my percussion-ensemble examples. I thought he asked if different ensembles would sound the same playing from the score. Given that no two identical percussion instruments sound precisely the same, I'd say that it's unlikely that any two performances of Ionisation would sound identical. But the requirement Phil is placing on these pieces is completely arbitrary and if applied honestly would eliminate a lot of the works he considers to be music. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 1 Apr 2006 at 6:19, Robert C L Watson wrote: > >> Nope. They came long before rap. And their origins are G&S patter > >> songs and Noel Coward. > > And they too are rap. > > Rap is not new. It is ancient. > > One of many online sources tells us: > "Rap's origins stretch far back to African oral tradition; it has a > more immediate predecessor in the spoken-word expressionism of 60s > activists like the Last Poets, or LeRoi Jones (later known as Amiri > Baraka), who performed activist poetry over the New York Art > Ensemble's free jazz. But it was in the early 70s, in New York's > inner-city neighborhoods in the Bronx and Brooklyn, that mcs began > rapping spoken rhymes about street life to the beat of dj-manipulated > drum machines and turntables. Break dancers and graffiti artists > provided a dramatic and colorful visual style to accompany the beats > and narratives, and a subculture was born. In 1979, rap had its first > hit single in Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight,"..." > > > And WS Gilbert and Noel Coward were influenced by that? It is your imagination that is putting this assertion into the discussion. No one has ever claimed any such thing. The only claim is that patter songs and rap are essentially the same from a musical point of view, and I agree with that completely. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 1 Apr 2006 at 0:05, Robert C L Watson wrote: > > ...Thus, one might reasonably say that the parlato songs > > in The Music Man are a form of rap ... < > > Nope. They came long before rap. And their origins are G&S patter > songs and Noel Coward. They may have come before the genre we call rap, but I fail to see any difference whatsoever in the musical content involved, except for the underlying musical style. They are both words spoken rhythmically to musical accompaniment, where the delivery may have definite pitch contours at times and less definite at others. The idea that rap doesn't involve pitch baffles me. There's a helluva lot of subtlety to the vocal delivery that is not just in the incredibly complex rhythms -- there is shape to the vocal lines as well. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] music literacy
> > > On 01 Apr 2006, at 8:21 AM, Peter Taylor wrote: > > > >> Gone are the days when a few ordinary-looking local lads > in Liverpool > >> could form their own little group, write their own music, > practice at > >> each other's houses, play at local dance halls and get > discovered by > >> talent scouts. > > > > Replace "Liverpool" with "Sheffield" and "talent scouts" with "the > > internet (especially MySpace)" and that's exactly the story > of the Arctic > > Monkeys, one of the most talked-about rock bands on the > scene right now. > > > > - Darcy > > But isn't that the point? They decided to promote their > music themselves on > MySpace Music presumably because the record companies > couldn't recognise > they had any prospect as moneyspinners (but I don't have any > knowledge of > that). > > Peter > Hardly. For a long time, they banned A&R scouts from their gigs. Darcy is spot on, that they're a self-made band in the traditional form, just using the tools they're familiar with. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
On 01 Apr 2006, at 5:40 PM, Peter Taylor wrote: On 01 Apr 2006, at 8:21 AM, Peter Taylor wrote: Gone are the days when a few ordinary-looking local lads in Liverpool could form their own little group, write their own music, practice at each other's houses, play at local dance halls and get discovered by talent scouts. Replace "Liverpool" with "Sheffield" and "talent scouts" with "the internet (especially MySpace)" and that's exactly the story of the Arctic Monkeys, one of the most talked-about rock bands on the scene right now. - Darcy But isn't that the point? They decided to promote their music themselves on MySpace Music presumably because the record companies couldn't recognise they had any prospect as moneyspinners (but I don't have any knowledge of that). I think the point is that they didn't *need* record company backing to succeed (at least not initially -- once they had generated some momentum on their own, their label certainly helped them get to the next level). But clearly, the days of record companies as exclusive gatekeepers are rapidly waning. And good riddance! - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] music literacy
- Original Message - From: "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] music literacy On 01 Apr 2006, at 8:21 AM, Peter Taylor wrote: Gone are the days when a few ordinary-looking local lads in Liverpool could form their own little group, write their own music, practice at each other's houses, play at local dance halls and get discovered by talent scouts. Replace "Liverpool" with "Sheffield" and "talent scouts" with "the internet (especially MySpace)" and that's exactly the story of the Arctic Monkeys, one of the most talked-about rock bands on the scene right now. - Darcy But isn't that the point? They decided to promote their music themselves on MySpace Music presumably because the record companies couldn't recognise they had any prospect as moneyspinners (but I don't have any knowledge of that). Peter ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
