Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
Michael, I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my comment. > Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems nature is trying. Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can we know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it? Yes. Perfection is a goal, even in nature. Einstein rejected Bohr's thoughts on Quanta, saying God doesn't play dice. (the quote may be aprochryphal). Bringing it back to the lute, your ear is the best tuning device. Even the paired courses have a diffence in tonality. Nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to perfection. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
I'm not sure to whom to reply, so I pick on the good Dr. of Chemistry. It comes down to the question of what is perfection. Is a straight line straight, or is a mess of fractals (don't pick on me for the joking reference, I realize that there is more to fractals). Are we really going to go to this level? If I shave my lute soundboard to a fraction of my goals, but one small segment is a ten thousandth of a millimeter off will it affect the sound (Answer, it will, but will I hear it? Every tiny difference effects a totality, but the effect isn't necessarily noticeable - or predictable). Chemistry isn't Physics, and Physics isn't Chemistry - and Quantum Mechanics (my day, fifty years ago - now should we say Quantum Theory) would suggest that everything is random and undefined, but statistically comes to a form when treated as a whole. (Sorry love, I'm trying to be careful to put this general terms). I know that I've sent you a private message on the topic regarding my father at Bell Labs, but your rather detailed comments here require me to comment. Symmetry and crystaline structure are both synonymous, and also a matter of degree, in fact everything is a matter of degree. My father sent an internal memo to his colleagues at the Labs in about 1047, it had to do with his theoretical speculation on what might happen at the P/N junction of a doped crystal, a crystal whose structure was compromised by impurities. He was working with quartz, a very stable crystalline structure. Schockley's crew was working in Germanium, less strict in structure. It didn't work with quartz, but Germanium was flexible and we got the transistor (and Schockley the Nobel, although it was the crew that did it). Silicon based transitor crystals came in later, with developement. Where is the point? Not in the perfection of structure or symmetry. Those don't exist if you go deep enough. Even though I'm a political conservative I'll support relativism when it comes to the perfection of sound, or the symmetry of the scale. And I'll not email our good Dr. of Chemistry to argue the left and right hand symmetry, we all know that the well made lute will have a difference of bracing and soundboard shaving to accomodate the bass versus the treble. That isn't symmetry, that is good design and making. I repeat, nothing is symmetrical if you go to the right level. The String Theorists are proposing 13 levels, and 13 can never be symmetrical. But that isn't important, what is important to the musician is the symmetry of sound - and that isn't really a symmetry. We all know that the natural overtone scale of the tensioned string has faults in it when compared to our chosen even temperament scale. Perfection is the exact form (frequencies) of the overtones on the single string, but that isn't perfection when wanting more notes, or different keys. How many times must I punctuate with the Pythagorean comma? And does my cat hear the tones as in the Oriental natural scale, or hear the nuances of the middle eastern quarter tones (and they are a bit smaller than that - my personal ear distinguishes about 5 cents, or less, on the cent scale where a half tone is 100 cents). What is a pleasant and harmonic sound? It isn't defined by the physics of sound vibrations, else we would have none. It is the compromise of our scales, and the training of our ears. Luckily my mind is asymmetrical, so I've no horse in this race (or dog in this fight). I shall retire to bed and contemplate my navel (were I able to see it). But I shall do so with well made popcorn (as I will make it) and a good book. It is a matter of level when one discusses symmetry. And it is a matter of level when one accepts or denies it. I'm not sure if I accept fractals as geometry, but the advocates have a point (no pun intended, they do have points on a straight line). Best, Jon > The term "perfect symmetry" does not exist in chemistry. The branch of mathematics that deals with the > characterization and categorization of symmetry is called "group theory." Molecules and crystals are > categorized according to the degree and type of symmetry into groups. Depending on the temperature and > pressure of the ice, the crystals will belong to one "point group" or another. If one were to apply the > principles of group theory to lutes, most lutes would belong to the C1 point group. That means that the > lute is not superimposible on its mirror image. This is why we need right-hand and left-hand lutes. If anyone > does not believe me he or she is welcome to email me off list and we can debate it. > > -Original Message- > From: guy_and_liz Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: May 23, 2005 6:44 PM > To: LUTELIST , > Manolo Laguillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > Crystals are only symmetrical to a point. It's a convenient and reasonably good approximation, but perfect symmetry runs afoul of the second law of thermodynam
Re: Gone 'the whole hog'!
>What would you > expect from Budweiser? I would hope they could make something good, they make a very bad beer. (Not a fair comment, they make Michelob which may not be great, but it is drinkable - Bud itself, however, is so thin that I won't drink beer if it is the only offering, as it will be at my 48th college reunion next weekend as Bud has the franchise). Do you know how much Clydesdales eat? and eliminate? Years ago the annual Reunions P-Rade at Princeton was led by the Budweiser wagon with the eight Clydesdales, before political correctness made them stop the "advertising of drinking". The parade is led by the 25th year reunion class, and at mine the Bud wagon was still in front. Try keeping your shoes clean when walking two miles in a group behind eight Clydedales. We never noticed it before as we were at the back of the parade and the mess was already mushed into the ground. And now it is gone, sadly, as the administrators prefer to pretend that the lads aren't back there to share a few beers with old buddies - but to attend University lectures on the humanities and politics. What a canard, politics and humanities are important on a day to day basis - but should go out the window when old friends meet from far flung places and only once a year (and most only every five years). Ed Nell is a devout Socialist professor at The New School, I am a somewhat devout capitalist and conservative. We both wrestled, he at the college level and me at prep school. Should we wrestle with our political differences at our Reunion, or should we share our friendship of many years. Sorry, I digressed. I beg your indulgence, but this might apply to the thread "the list" which I also replied to. I could just not send this, but I think I will send it (as I'm full of good beer, Molson's - call me a chauvanist Yankee on politics, but a chauvanist Canadian as to taste in beer). There is a time and a place for everything, and all discussions. And sometimes it is of value to bring up a topic that is not generally appropriate. Do it with manners and it will be either followed up or gently put off. Do it harshly and you will raise the hackles of the assembled multitude. The sun is rising, and I am the fool for staying up all night. But not that much the fool, the forecast is rain and I've nothing to do tomorrow (oops, this morning). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gone 'the whole hog'!
OK Marion, I'll give it a try. As a guitarist I find all "dedicated" electric "guitars" to be unworthy of the name guitar. The solid bodies, the various other electronic instruments of varying shapes, all those that use the electronic amplification of the direct sound of the strings instead of the combination of strings and body (so this doesn't include electronic pickups on a basic instrument). But, unlike many on this list, I'm not going to make a semantic issue of the name of the instrument - the Bud guitar is an electronic guitar with an irrelevant, but very ugly, shape. If there is no resonance in the body of the instrument (as is the case with many other "guitar shaped" electronic instruments) I could take a hickory board and get the same sound from the electronics. But the Weiss guitar is another matter. The waisting of the guitar shaped body must steal from the sound of the unbalanced bass strings (the bridge stretching across the parallel of the waist). But that isn't what I most noticed. My MusicMaker's "flat back lute" has been denigrated by a very few on this list, but it was a cheap kit at $350 and let me find out if I really wanted to play the lute (and learn it). The Weiss guitar has the same failings of my "flat back", and not the advantage of economy. It isn't the flat back that is the only problem with mine (although the sound is pretty good - it is said that the body of the lute contributes only about 10% of the resonance, the soundboard is the main contributor). It is also the peg board (note that it is peg board, not peg box). Like my MusicMakers the Weiss uses vertical pegs through a board. That works on a modern steel strung guitar with "tuning machines", but not with friction pegs. There was a reason for the peg box with the strings pulling between the two supported ends of the friction peg, the tuning holds better with friction at both ends - and a pull that isn't a cantelever. So, given the practicality of both instruments (the Bud and the Weiss guitar), my deep consideration has decided that the Weiss is uglier. Both are physically ugly, but given that the Bud guitar is electronic there can be no increase in ugliness in the sound compared to other electronic guitars. But the Weiss looks as if it would have a musical ugliness also. It wins the contest. Best, Jon > OK, lutelisters, lutenists, luthiers and Duluth residents, > which instrument looks more horrid, the Bud guitar > or this gem? > > http://www.weissguitar.com/ > > Cheers, > Marion To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Nonskid lute pad
Ed, As a beginner, and a long time guitarist, I first fixed a strap to my lute (and, like you, fixed it to both ends of the bowl). I took my only lesson, from a nearby lutenist, and noticed that he had his strap "hooked" around a peg on the pegboard. I found that to be better support. But in both cases there was a feel that the strap controlled the position of the lute. Finally I reread the opening passages of my copy of Damiano's "Method for the Renaissance Lute" and noted that he put the strap under his leg/butt (which obviously won't work standing up). I am no great source for virtuoso lute performance, but I do find the freedom of the neck when the lute is anchored to one's lap to be helpful for me. I confess not to taking the recommended sitting stance on a proper chair with a left foot stool and legs not crossed - I like my arm chair in front of the TV. I sit up and cross my left leg over my right, contrary to Damiano's instructions - put the chamois in my lap and pull the strap from the base under my right cheek and leg, and over my left leg. It fixes the instrument at the body and supports the neck without argument with the strap about position. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 1:54 AM Subject: Re: Nonskid lute pad > I don't use any non skid surface. I always perform standing with a > strap. When I practice I sit and use the strap. My strap connects on > both ends of the bowl, not to the neck, rather like a guitar strap. > The few times I play without a strap, I often just brace the lute > against the edge of my desk just like so many paintings show. Anyone > else do this? I often pull the mouse pad over the edge of the desk so > I don't scratch the instrument. > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: The List!
Arto, I didn't read your comment as one having to do with the "non-skid", which is clearly lute related. I read it as a comment on the general manners of the list. I started on lists before the web (developed by Tim Berners-Lee in 1989) and the general public use of the internet. I was a co-manager of a technical advice list on Delphi. We had a few with bad manners, but they didn't last long. We didn't ban them, we isolated them. But in those days the list, and the internet, were a small community. My old "site" (it became a web site) is now a haven for flamers on the "idiocy" of those who disagree as to what is the latest and best video card, or audio card, or whatever card. For all I know I may still be listed as co-manager, I still was only a few years ago when I hadn't visited for years. We each offend the rules at times. You have done it with political commentary - but passed in passing rather than meant as pontifical. I have done it by sometimes speaking too soon before I know enough - but with the urge to contribute. RT has done it by denigrating views other than his own, although I'm sure that is his style rather than his substance - no one who can research and offer such enjoyable music as the Sarmanticas can be all bad . So it comes down to this, manners are a matter of style (in a sense). Most of you are from Europe and aren't exposed to the daily "in your face" commercials on US TV - where the values of the hoodlum are used to promote sneakers (plimsols for the English, basketball shoes as a generic). Confrontation is counter productive, it merely provokes more confrontation. It isn't the matter of the specific relevance to lutes, a few side issues are fun now and then, it is the presentation. Arto, you may be getting old - but imagine how I feel! I met my first computer in 1961 after graduating from college and spending three years as a Naval officer. In those days one still used the title Mr. to anyone you didn't know well. And I've watched the evolution of the internet since its inception (in 1969). But I will say that there is little "screaming" on this list (that defined as SAYING IT ALL IN CAPS). Very bad manners in the early times, but often used by the "kiddies". This list is pretty balanced and well run. I get to run through the postings quickly with my "delete" key, but most of those I delete aren't irrelevant - they are just too advanced (and on topic) for my beginner status. I'm not yet into discussing the relative merits of Weiss and Dowland, not until I can play them. But those discussions belong here, and it is easy for me to bypass them until I'm ready for them. But so do those about the technical aspects of the instrument, and the strings - and the players with no interest can bypass them as easily as I can bypass the deeper matters of composers and styles (until I reach that level). Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 3:30 AM Subject: Re: The List! > > Dear Marion and others, > > sorry, I did not mean to insult you, and not even RT! > I understand the paper bag's linking to lutensts problems. > And I understand also how the (in)famous "S" actually has > something to do with lutes. > > "In the good old days" "all was better"... ;-) > > So perhaps my main message was only the last sentence: > > Perhaps I am getting old? ;-) > > All the best > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Gone 'the whole hog'!
Bill, Given that some old lutes were made of materials like ivory I can see no reason that a graphite resin couldn't make a lute bowl that would sound quite well - but somehow the aesthetics don't appeal to me. Yet given the abilities of the space age types to concoct almost any internal structure even the soundboard might be possible with synthetics - but I'm not ready for it. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Gone 'the whole hog'! > check out www.rainsong.com in hawaii. they make 100% > graphite resin guitars with the "classic" graphite > sound. it's a beautiful building material - a solid > graphite lute of one-piece construction can't be far > off. i have a crafter mandolin with a polyresin bowl > (similar in principle to an ovation guitar) and it > sounds fabulous. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Ed Martin injured
> If I recall it's also the highest latitude in the Lower 48. > > Craig The town of Angle Inlet, Minn. has that title. It is on a peninsula in Lake of the Woods that is north of the Canadian border and can only be reached by land by going through Canada. Being a bit of a geography buff I'll give you a good "bar bet" to pick up a couple of bucks. Ask them to name the northernmost, easternmost, southernmost and westernmost states of the 50. The southernmost is Hawaii, and the other three are all Alaska. The Alaskan Aleutian chain crosses the 180th meridian so the last couple of islands of the state are in East longitude. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Nonskid lute pad
> Disadvantage is that rubber goes dry and loses its adhesive > power after some time so that it has to be replaced. And you can't blow your nose or wipe your fingers on rubber. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thanks!
A small addendum to Sean's comment on round grooves. A hobby shop or a hardware store should have sets of the small "Swedish pattern" files. One of those is a tapered round (or rat tail), and the end of that is quite small and good for rounding grooves. You don't need an expensive set as the nut isn't that hard, many sets of three (triangle, round and flat) cost only about five bucks US. But be careful if you do it, you don't want to go too far. Work a bit, try the string, then work a bit more. You don't have to unstring, just slacken the one you are working on and move it over it's neighbor on the nut and retighten - that way you can maintain the tension so the string doesn't relax. Best, Jon > > Just before you try everything at once :^) I prefer beeswax to graphite > since it doesn't leave black marks on your nut. But definitely make > sure your grooves are round (and a slightly greater radius than the > string) first. > > Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: interesting lute trivia
> Etymology of FLUTE: > First recorded in Provençal, as FLAUT, And in English the flute player is yet called a flautist. >Engl. flute > Provenc. fleute > Lat. flatus > flare (blow, breathe). And I do hope there is no reflection on the sound of the flute - flatus being the medical term for an expulsion of sometimes noxious gasses from one's nether region. > No Arabic needed (would have been al-oud, btw). One does hope that all instruments are played aloud (although sometimes I wonder about some players). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute string?
Marion, I do like the color coding aspect of the graphite, it appeals to my love of multiple function . As to the methods I'd add a bit to number 3. I've made relatively wide and shallow channels at the peg end of my nut ( that avoids a sharp edge as the string goes to the peg - important on my flat back as the pegs are vertical so the string winding on the peg can't be adjusted to make the pull direct). That means that the "catch" is likely to be in the "up-tuning" of the string, so as I tune above pitch I press on the segment of the string between the nut and the peg - it often pops up a few cents as the "catch" releases. Then the slackening down to pitch is rather accurate as the wider end of the groove doesn't catch. I haven't found that I need a lubricant, but if I did I might try the silicon stick I use on the joints of my flute and whistles. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Nonskid lute pad
Not knowing that there were specific cloths for lutenists, and as a beginner, I noticed lutenists using the friction of a cloth. I went to an auto parts supplier and bought a chamois leather for about ten bucks. There is both synthetic and real "chammy" cloths, they are used to dry a car after washing. Either has a nice friction to avoid the skid. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Politics
I just deleted the last several days of messages after glancing at a few. This is not to say that politics and opinions shouldn't be shared among us. Arto and I have been in an off list conversation in which we disagree, but respect each other's opinions. Once the "non lute" topic has been opened it should be then closed by responding directly to the sender. That way a dialogue can be started, but not a diatribe. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: medieval lutes? and Maalouf
Matt, You have hit the nail on the head. There has been a rewriting of history in recent decades by the pan-Arabists and the Islamists. And there was a rewriting of history many years ago by the Western historians. And there are those who would demonize a culture and a people for the devastation wreaked on their own ancestors. It is just that history "as written by the winners" that negates the valid statement "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it". I haven't seen the film, but I understand that it shows Salidin in a favorable light. That matches all the various contemporary accounts I have in my bookshelves (it is a period I like to read of). But the Crusaders themselves were of good will and good heart - when they started. But I'm afraid that "good will and good heart" is something defined by the writer, and the writer's viewpoint. I understand that Ridley Scott tried to make a movie about a period (which did exist) of relaxation of fundamental views. In history that period was brief, and atrocities on both sides ended it. As has often happened, the escalation of an incident into a crusade. We don't need to go to history for that, just go to a bar on Saturday night. I'll not see the film, I haven't been to a movie theater since 1976 (no beer and no smoking, and uncomfortable seats ). And I'll not rent a video of a film with known actors standing tall as historical characters, and leaping high into the air in fantastic scenes. Yet I enjoy re-running the video I bought of Master and Commander, a compendium of several Patrick O'Brien novels. The music is quiet, the protagonists (as in the book) play a violin and a cello - and the actors play in a way I'd never thought of. I don't know where the director found it, but it sounds authentic. They go from bowing to switching one or the other instrument to a lute/guitar position, and plucking to accompany the other. I don't know if it was ever done, but it sure sounds like something a couple of guys at sea, who loved the music, might do for a variation on a theme. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Posts which are off-topic.
I agree with you all, and I take a positive stand on both sides of the issue. I'm quite comfortable singing (and playing) the bawdy ballads of the lusty Scots of the age parallel to the European Renaissance, but I don't think I'd be likely to sing a lewd song. Is there a fine line, of course there is. The line between the suggestion and double entendre and the specific. The specific is more a creature of our modern day. As to topic, and I run into this on other music lists, it isn't so much the actual message as the flow from the thread. Wayne, quite rightly, has suggested that several of us on this list who are interested in making lutes join the lute-builder's list for our discussions of the fine points of turning tuning pegs. And we have done so. And by doing so have a better resource on that topic. But at the same time Herbert is right. Why limit the natural flow of thoughts that may come when playing a lute. The real problem with off topic threads on any dedicated list isn't the initial thread, or the intitial answer. It is the follow up additions. The simple answer to that is for the participants to take the thread "off list" as they get wound up in their puns and examples. I speak as a guilty man, it is our own self discipline that makes a list relevant, not rules from the adminstrator (although he has that right I'm sure he'd rather not have to take the time to police it. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ...
Without knowledge of the composer (Bruger) I can't decide whether Judenkoenig would apply to Jesus, Herod or the future Messiah. Or just perhaps to a local mythology. Die Erlenkoenig was real to some, myth to others. Words can be loaded with unintentional meaning - and the Nazis were specialists in exploiting that. I am reminded that Deutchland Uber Alles was a patriotic anthem reflecting a sense of personal love of nation that was corrupted into an expression of international conquest. One of the skills of the tyrant is to pervert innocent words into tirades of nationalism and predjudice. Best, Jon > > In the mid-1930es, Hans Dagobert Bruger, in the historical preface to his > "Lautenschule", has a hard time explaining the name "Judenkuenig". > > AK To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stability of tuning.
Herbert, I can't answer your question with regard to lute experience, but I think you would find that once the strings were stable in a range of pitch you could up-tune or down-tune 100 cents and have the string remain stable. Whether the lute tuning would remain stable is another question, what sets the soundboard might take that would change the overall tune is beyond my experience. But I play double strung harp (which means that, like the lute, I want my paired courses to be exactly the same), and I am regularly changing the string length with levers for the half tones on key changes. And some of those in my ensemble don't have levers and regularly change the string tension to switch key signatures. Admittedly the harp is a different instrument, but as the pull on the soundboard is direct rather than transmitted downward across a bridge I'd think the deformation of the soundboard would be greater in the harp for the change of tension. So my best guess is that once the string is "seasoned" to a general pitch it will retain any pitch within a half tone or so. The exception might be the chaterelle as it is normally tuned very near its breaking point. If this is contrary to lute experience then I'd guess that factors other than string stability would be involved. A harp may not be a lute, but a string is a string (if it is the same material, and harpists use gut, wire and nylon with similar retuning experience). Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Stability of tuning. > > > Suppose you took a lute and turned half the pegs up 5-15 cents, > and half the pegs down 5-15 cents, so that its tuning was com- > pletely clobbered. > > Now suppose you handed the lute to a person who was very good > at tuning lutes, and knew all the tricks. Could he tune the lute > so that it would still be in tune 24-48 hours later? Or is there > something fundamentally unstable about such a freshly-tuned lute > which defies any level of tuning know-how? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Lute repair
.> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:28:14 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > Luthiers avoid working on other luthiers' instruments, as a rule. > > Really ? :) > > Marcello Absolutely Marcello, any luthier asked to repair a Venere would tell the customer to take it to Venere, although I think I'd avoid that trip myself as I don't think there are round trip tickets to that place (not sure how he lived his life so I'm not sure what place - but either way it is a one-way trip). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: country dances
If I may I'll drop in on the country dances (normally considered the English ones in general and the Morris dancers in particular). Dana mentions dancing them, and so have I (but not since about 1950). I know the tunes well and am sure a lute would fit quite nicely as accompanyment, but not really as a lead instrument. As Dana says, let the dancers have a beat and they'll take over. This is a lead in to a personal remembrance. My late mother was English, and went to boarding school in Scotland in 1910 at age eight. The young ladies were taught all the dances of the Isles (including the Highland dances that were only danced by the men). And she turned out to be a champion. Many years later, about 198x, we were guests at her best friend's estate in Rensaelerville NY - which had been turned into a cultural foundation. They always invited various of their friends of differing backgrounds. On this weekend another guest was Agnes de Mille, the choreographer. The family house was at the top of the hill, the foundation had various buildings below - including a French restaurant to spoil the faculty. It was a steep hill, in the sense of a rolling meadow. As we passed through the hedge gate to walk the 500 yards down the hill for dinner Ms. de Mille and my mother were talking of Morris dancing. The two old broads (both in their eighties) grabbed sticks from under the hedge and skipped their way down the hill to the steps of a Morris dance. Their only musical accompanyment was the clapping of their sticks and the rythym in their heads. Yes Dana, the dancers can take over. Pardon the reminiscence, but it is yet vivid. A blue sky, a rolling meadow - and two old ladies who had dance in their souls and rythym in their heads. No musician necessary. Perhaps it is so that some play notes and some dance steps, but others play songs and step to the dance. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: anti spam on the list
Craig, You aren't over your head here, what you say is correct (I was building computers long before most of you were playing lutes). But this particular "bounce" message doesn't look good. You are right that we on the list often send duplicate messages by using "reply all" - one through the lute list and others to those copied on the "To" line (or the CC: line), but I think the originator is always the sender (Wayne might comment on that, but I think the lute list is a forwarding function that doesn't change the header). Either way the key phrase is: > > We do not have your email address in our database > > as a human verified sender. I have seen similar blocking messages often, but they would normally say that you aren't on the recipient's authorized list. One can block spam by making one's own local list of authorized senders (or perhaps do that at the higher level at your ISP) - but that is self defeating as one loses any "surprise mail" from legitimate senders. I know of no legitimate Spam blocking service that would be able to intercede in email (other than the receiver's ISP). > > > > Your email was not delivered to the recipient. Please verify > > that you are a human by clicking below. This is the only time > > you will be asked to perform this. Yeah man , I be human. Text taken from the legitimate spam blocking forms, but not when used in this way. Murphy's Law #33, if the signature contains the word "team" it is probably illegitimate (unless a direct response from your question to a vendor's customer support). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Blind players and memory
I can't speak of the old lutenists, but there were many harpers of medieval and renaissance times who were blind. Although it is well past the renaissance era the Belfast Harp Festival of 1792 listed 10 harpers (nine men and one woman). Six of them are listed as blind. The prolific composer for the Celtic harp, Turlogh O'Carolan (1670-1738) was blind, but most of his pieces have been written down. Consider the position of the musician, before the complexities of our more modern orchestral compositions (and the specific composed pieces of those such as Weiss). Or consider the position of the blind son of a decent family - and what proper occupation he could choose. O'Carolan was such - he couldn't work the farm, nor could he work in business - but he was supported in an apprenticeship on the harp, and he had the talent to succeed. Could there not have been lutenists of the period who learned the basic tunes, and the harmonic structures, and who could play the instrument in combination with others - adding divisions and variations that fit the piece? Is the instrument limited only to the specific composers that we seem to worship (because their works are written down), or could there have been a great deal more? I speak with no knowledge (as I'm sure some of you may point out), but given the general history of music I think a lot of it was unwritten, and often improvised for the ocassion - somewhat like a modern jam session (or Irish "session"). When one takes any history entirely from the written record one can miss some nuance, and will miss the ambience of much of the era. Try it, play a random set of notes (within a framework of a scale), then embellish it. You may come up with a fine piece (now try to remember how you did it). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strap Buttons
Dana says it well, there are many old pictures of lutenists with straps, but I'd be careful to ensure the bridge end of the body can handle it. This is gratuitous, I admit, but there is another purpose. I've been playing my "flat back", which is a thicker body, with a strap for some time - in my one lesson the teacher did so, and had the neck end tied in his peg block. Then I went back to working from the beginning of my copy of Damiano's "Method for the Renaissance Lute" and noted that he suggested attaching a strip of leather to the butt end of the lute and passing it under one's own butt. I tried it, took the guitar strap I was using and shortened it (no, I didn't destroy it, just used the slide buckle to minimize it). Wow, a revelation. by holding the butt end of the lute down to my thigh (with a bit of chamois cloth from an auto parts store to provide friction) I got a much better balance of the instrument and a freer left hand. So this doesn't speak to strap buttons, but it does speak to straps. Best, Jon - To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Wow, motion and motor - and time and space - and memory. How basic can you get. Both of you spend a lot of words and speculation on the forms of memory and analysis. But the process is not one or another, it is a combination. Do I memorize which finger goes to which fret, or do I memorize the tones and my "muscle memory" interprets the interval? No, it is the same processes as are involved in sports. There is an innate skill for spatial relations, better in some and worse in others. But that applies to fighter pilots and sailors. And there is an analysis of the piece and the directions of the patterns - but that again means a memorization specific to the piece. (And as to the leading directions I recommend Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, still available as a paperback although it has been off the best seller list for 500 years - only to suggest a basis, not to define the entirety of the spectrum). But then I may be being too strict on the terms, one of you refers to Paul Odette moving from one lute to another with a few chords. That isn't spatial memory, it is a very good (and quick) adjustment of psychokinetics - the sense of where you, and your body parts, are. It is that sense that the cops test when they think you are driving drunk and ask you to touch your nose (or bring your index fingers together) with your eyes closed. This isn't memory, it is a sense. What Odette has is the ability to quickly change the length of the nose he is trying to touch. (Yes, it is a form of memory in that it is an adjustment in the "where" - but it isn't a memory in the sense of memorization). Muscle memory is more the which muscle and how much, and is more related to the sequencing than the spacing. I play tin/penny whistles of varying lengths (and therefore spacing). The muscle memory is the finger movement, the spacing is a mental adjustment (which for me takes hours when going from a D to a low F). But that is a parallel to Odette's shift of lutes. Aural memory is more complex, it involves not only the memorization of the melody but also the chording. And, as you both say, the chording can be an analysis in order to predict it. But what about different modes? The patterns vary. I have a guitar, I have played it as a folk/traditional guitarist for over fifty years. Sometimes when I'm arranging a piece for harp and can't hear the progression I just pick up the guitar and sing the melody - my fingers seem to play the right chord automatically. That is a combination of the aural memory of the overall sound that should go with the melody, the muscle memory of my fingers in chording, and a subconscious analysis. I can do the same on the harp, but I have to think whether this should be the 4th, the 5th, the relative minor - or any of the related chords. A lot quicker to use the old git-fiddle that has the fingering in muscle memory. As to the lute, there is one place where motor memory may be needed. In my limited experience I've found the divisions to be something I'd like to put into muscle memory if I want to play the same piece in the same way. But after all, aren't the divisions merely variations on the main theme that lead into the next key note? So combining the aural memory of the piece, and its musical surroundings, with the muscle memory of the intervals involved (and therefore fingers and courses) and adding the psychokinetic sense of the particular instrument should make the play of the instrument. Not to leave out analysis, but that is predictive rather than reactive. The pattern of the piece is set in your head by your analysis before you play the first note (and hopefully your memory is such that you don't have to go through the whole piece in your head first, although at my age I'm getting to that point - but it does make for some interesting segues into new pieces - I discovered during the Carter Presidency that Hail to the Chief slides right into Marching Through Georgia (( for the foreign among you, that song is anathema to southerners being a celebration of Sherman's destruction))). OK, in summary the memorization of music is a matter of feel - where feel is a combination of a number of senses and memories. Memories of music in general, and this piece in particular. The sense of the instrument, and the memory of the instrument. It helps if the piece has meaningful words, then you can play the song. But it isn't necessary. Make a song without words of it in your head. I have harpist friends who can only play from written music (we call them paper trained), but others can play a melody, and the basic harmony, just on hearing it - the intervals are in their minds and their fingers go to them. I'm not at all sure if memorizing the details of the divisions is aural or "spatial". Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 3:18 AM Subject: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... > Dea
Re: mesmerization
Howard, I don't know whether to agree or disagree, it is a matter of interpretation. > > Duke Ellington once said, "There are two kinds of music - good music and bad > > music." > > Ellington, who died in 1974, is indeed universally credited with that > remark, proving that inane comments about music predate internet discussion > groups. If the good Duke meant that certain music is good and other music is bad, then I would agree with you that the comment is inane. But if he meant, as I think more likely, that any style or form of music is good as long as it is true to its form then I'd disagree. I've not yet seen American Idol on the TV (and don't intend to) but I've seen and heard some clips. There is such a thing as bad music. I'm not a rock fan, but I can accept that it can be good music. And I've heard rap (as long as I can't understand the words) that has musical value (remembering that polyrythms are a form of music - Oh to find that Gum Boots video that played on PBS). Music has many souls, it may be in many forms. But in every form there are things that are lacking the soul of the form. And that is bad music. And I'd be pleased to be locked in a room with RT if he were playing some of the music he has posted on his site (although I might agree that I wouldn't want to be there to argue the relative values of different music). I like Mondrian, Picasso, Rembrandt, Degas, Monet and even Pollack. But some blots of color on canvas are just bad art made by someone with no sense of art or design. A clash of harmony, or color, doesn't make for bad music or art (witness the conversations on this list about a year ago about the "world's ugliest chord" as found in McFalane's Scots Lute Book in Gypsie's Lilt - I tried the chord in context on both lute and harp and found it to fit the context). OK, enough. I'll say that the Duke's statement was correct as I interpret it - and inane as you interpret it. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
As one who has experienced all sorts of memory over 70 years I'll say that Ed's analysis is technically correct (although I'd disagree with the muscle memory being the most dangerous, it has saved my butt a number of times on the ski slope - but an aerial recovery from an unseen bump isn't the same as playing a fixed piece of music - so regarding music he is accurate). But, as I'm still a newbie, I wonder about the nature of the pieces (and this is a question, not a statement). I've not yet branched out into Baroque lute - and I gather from the messages on the list that they are more of a "set piece" style with several instruments playing. But regarding the renaissance lute it was on this list that I learned that "divisions" are actually almost a form of ornamentation - at least that is the way I'm looking at them for the moment. The pieces in my limited collection (from McFarlane's Scots Lute, Damiano's Method, and the kindness of many of you who have posted pieces on the web which now fill a notebook of printouts) all seem to have the characteristic of divisions as variations. A repeated theme, sometimes quite short, with variations. Perhaps my analysis of that era is wrong, but if right it would seem that the memorization need only be the theme and that the variations could vary, and yet fit with the continuo or the other instruments. It raises the question as to whether the written music of those days really reflects the play, or merely the composer's guides to his piece that he might have varied himself. Unlike the full orchestral scores of a bit later the instruments might have been played more freely. This is speculation, and I bow to the more knowlegeable. But I wonder if the aural memory, combined with a good feeling for the scales and harmonys, might be the best memorization for the lute. The sense of the song may be just the way the old boys played. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Woodworking question.
Herbert, As an inveterate "jig" builder I agree with the other answers. But will add my own. If you are dealing with plain old pine stud you don't need a sharp draw knife (which costs money), a good sharp hunting knife or such will allow you to whittle it to a gross size (the wood isn't hard). Then the broken glass suggestion as a scraper can take over. I would gather that part of the idea of a bus transportable "dummy" lute is the size. Marion and Vance are right about the weight balance, but you could drill a hole in the end of the dummy neck and insert a length of pipe (removable to put the pieces back in the carry bag) to counter balance, it won't give you right hand coordination, but it will make a balance for the left hand. The suggestions for stringing it seem to go beyond what you are looking for, but they have a point. How do you know if you are in the right place. And you do need to feel the fret distances as well. But it seems you want a silent "instrument". And it would be nice if there was an appropriate resistance similar to the lute strings. How about this. The "zither pins" used on small harps are cheap, and are easy to install, but you need a nut to bring the strings to level. You don't want to spend the time of making a peg head at an angle for this silent instrument. So take the straight board, a bit over length, and drill for the strings and set grommets in the holes, Now set zither pins on the reverse side to anchor the strings (and adjust the tension). Run them over a nut and to a saddle bridge (you can make that like the nut. Drill behind the bridge and anchor the strings underneath (you could rabbet the end of the "fingerboard" to make an anchor point. It is doable, I'm not sure if it is useful - you would have to eyeball your accuracy of left hand fingering if the instrument is silent (and fishing line would do for the strings). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie In defence of the EMS lute
OK all, I'm going to make a defense of another "lute". I considered the EMS lute kit, which I think at the time would have cost me about $800 (more now with the exchange rates), and asked some advice. The EMS kit was well recommended, but involved a lot of work. I chose to buy the Musikits "flat back", which some purists on the list have said isn't a lute. The kit cost me $350, and the finished instrument is about $800. What are the criteria of the choice. My flat back has been played by three professionals (one being Ronn McFarlane, and I had to point out to him that the frets were fixed wooden frets instead of gut - as he just played without looking). All three had the same reaction, a bit bright, but playable as a lute. I've been playing that instrument for a year now, and as many of you know from my questions I'm in the process of building a true lute from scratch. But I never would have done that, or learned what I've learned about the music and the instrument, had I had to pay a lot of money to get started. The earlier versions (one and two, I have two) of the Musicmakers (Musikits.com) flat back were too long(25", 63.5cm) for a G tuning, except with nylon. The version being sold now is a bit shorter (not sure how much, but when you see in the catalog that it is now a fit length for G that is from my suggestion, I do wish Jerry would buy me a beer for pointing out the failings of his design). From the box it might be a bit high in the action, I haven't convinced him on that yet. But you can get a playable lute for $800, or if you have minimal skills with hand tools and a bit of time, for $350. It is not a concert instrument, but you can learn the fingering and play a rather nice sound on it. In fact if I didn't like the challenge of making a "full bellied" lute, and the idea of having a classic renaissance lute, I'd just stay with the Musicmaker's flat back. Full disclosure, Jerry Brown pays me nothing for this endorsement - and I'm still waiting for that beer for teaching him things I learned about the lute from this list and my own experimentation. But one can learn if one likes guitar with a decent classical instrument of about $200 (or an electric for a similar price). One can get a used flute for about $150, and a new penny whistle for $6. Even violins cost less than lutes at a beginner's level. And no beginner should be asked to commit to a fully priced instrument, no matter the instrument, in order to find out if this is the one he/she wants to play. I think that flat back has a place there, when I make my true lute I'll sell the flat back to someone interested in the instrument for the price they can afford (and if it is $5, so be it - I've gotten my worth from it in learning to love the instrument - but I do hope they will be willing to pay a bit more ). I'd rather sell it to someone who would learn from it for $100 than to someone who would hang it on the wall for $1000 - which wouldn't happen anyway, but the point is made). Best, Jon PS, I thought about buying a Paki lute on eBay and using just the belly. It is generally agreed among luthiers with whom I've spoken that the body of the lute contributes a lot less to the sound than the soundboard and the rest of the instrument. But I chose to bite the bullet and make the belly on my own. (And the ability to tear apart a Paki lute to use the parts would depend on the glue they use - a good hide glue will come apart with a reasonable level of heating, whereas a modern glue might need enough heat to really do some tearing). > If you have the money to spend on a more expensive lute, go ahead. As I > said, I wasn't in a position to do that, and I do think people can be over > quick to criticise cheaper instruments. There are lutes made by different > workshops also available from the Early Music Shop. You can visit their > lute catalogue on line at > http://www.e-m-s.com/cat/stringinstruments/lutes/lute.htm And therein lies the point. Do you want to start with a mediocre or "good" lute before you know if you can play. Or do you want to find out whether you like playing the music first. I see that the lutes from Mitre on the site you link are in a range, my mental calculations aren't perfect but they seem to have student lutes at about $900. But I'd like to see one first. A general observation from an ancient warrior. Use cheap stuff to practice skills, then discard them for the better equipment. If you make a compromise in the middle you will never feel you can dispose of it, and you won't have the money for the best as you will already have spent much of it. jwm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: LUTE-etymology
> beginning of a word. In txt-format, Greek characters are not possible, > so the spiritus has to be transcribed, and there you are: halieutika, > fishing tools. Well said Mathias, Thank you. I confess that my studies of the Greek language were many years ago, so I didn't have the word for that "spiritus". A bit of college Greek in the fifties, then the more modern Greek in the late fifties in the Navy. But there are the questions as to the romanization when we spell it our way. Ena poteiri beera parakalo is the same as ena poteiri Fix parakalo, at least in my time. Fix (phi, iota, xi) had a monopoly on soft drinks and beers at the time I was in Greece - and where you were would define whether it was a Coke or a beer. But it comes back to the point of homophones, and the transcriptions of languages. I posit the Hawaiian fish, which I learned to pronounce with rhythm when I founded a Hawaiian trio in New Jersey in 1950. The Humuhumunukunukuapua. A small fish with a big name. I'm sure that there was meaning in each of the syllables that we see as redundant, but it wasn't a written language so I'm sure there were abbreviations. And that was my entire point, don't trust derivations, but don't ignore them either. When I type the "e" is it eta or epsilon? In transliteration it makes a difference. Sou ha anthrop. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Botanica
> Yes as a matter of fact Weiss wrote a rather unknown suite Dresden # 69 > otherwise known as " Tip Toe Threw The Tulips" in D minor. Michael, is this real or a play on "Tiny Tim" and his ukelele? And if it is real is the melody similar? Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mar'jana Sadovska in NYC
Alain, Of course the MIDI doesn't duplicate the exact sound of the strings, but is that Ronde playable on a large lute (a theorbo or whatever). It sounds as if the range would require a harpsichord. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Alain Veylit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:47 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mar'jana Sadovska in NYC > Just so that Roman does not feel lonely, you can find some imaginary > music of my own at : > http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Concerto/Spagnuola.html > Warning: Lots of strumming, syncopation and noise... (i.e. dance music) > Alain > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: LUTE-etymology
With many of you I have difficulty finding the "familiar Greek" LEUTIKA as my Greek dictionary uses Greek characters. Is this lambda-epsilon (eta)-upsilon-tau-iota-kappa-alpha?. And what is the HA, there is no "h" as a character. Is a form I don't know of the English article "the" (Gr. "o", "oi", etc.). My computer font isn't set up to make the left versus right curved apostrophe that sets the "h" sound before the vowel, so I leave it out. But if the tail points at the vowel you put in the "h", and if the tail points away you don't. Etymology is fun, and often informative, but also can be counter productive. Similar sounds as pronounced, or spelled, today may have been quite different. Michael has made a bit of a treatise on the Chinese lute - but at the same time many on this list have said my "flat back" isn't a lute. No problem there, just approaching etymology from the front end. There is a river in Connecticutt called the Thames (and pronounced that way), and one in London called the "Tems" and spelled Thames (the Norman French couldn't pronounce the "th", and neither can my Norman French wife). There are a myriad of sounds in language, and only a few basic forms of musical instrument (when you go back to the origins). Although we trace the progress of the Indo-European peoples linguistically by the similarities in the words for native animals, etc. (if there is no relative word in an earlier related language we assume a migration) - that doesn't account for slang. The hammered dulcimer is of the zither family, and the Appalachian dulcimer is of the lute family. (And don't quarrel with me on Kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species - I picked the word family out of the air). Just as our taxonomy of biology is a bit confused as we learn more about the mixes and matches, so our taxonomy of musical instruments. The same thing can evolve, or be developed, in different places in different ways. External similarities don't imply a common origin. The Skene Mandora Book (c.1615) has tabulation for a small instrument of five strings tuned in fifths, but the historical mandora is a different instrument. A borrowed word? Many words are borrowed, or misapplied. Etymology is fun, I repeat. but one has to watch out for the urban legends such as "for unlawful carnal knowledge". Parallel development is probably the origin of most musical instruments - then after the original parallel development the merging of styles and forms as the known world expanded. Words apply only to a period, the word "ass" meaning one's rear end was originally a euphemism for "arse" in polite company, and now is not proper in polite company unless in the context of a donkey. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology > >> There is a fascinating discussion on the etymology of LUTE on the French > >> lute-list. In a nutshell: not only the Greek provenance of the word is no > >> longer discountable, but limiting oneself to Arabic provenance is beginning > >> to look ludicrous. The messages can be found on Yahoo-Groups. > > > > Unfortunately, I do not speak French. Would you mind to keep us > > informed? > Not at all, happy to oblige: > In many European languages there are LUTE-like words that describe MARINE > VESSELS of obvious derivation from the familiar Greek (HA)LEUTIKA, in > Italian, Spanish, Catalan, French, AND last but not least- Slavonic > languages. > This certainly is corroborated by the iconographic evidence of lutes > predating Muslims' spewing out of Hijaz. > RT > > -- > http://polyhymnion.org/torban > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Greensleeves
Mat, I must both agree and disagree. > > Who cares as to the origins of such a melody, it can stand on its own. > well, I was under the impression it was clear that it cannot. Those two > Green Sleeves :) I named are trebles to certain grounds. Neither stands > on its own. I'm afraid I know only one Greensleeves melody (although it has a slight variant in an English carol called "What Child is This". But when you refer to the two as trebles to a certain ground then it tells me you are looking specifically at lute music, and the interplay of treble and ground. But there is melody, the single voice a cappella - the small medieval harp - the psaltery. My aged voice is long gone, but I might still be able to hold an audience with a melody line - even without words. Some lines need the ground (or the harmony, depending on the combination of instruments) - and some can stand on their own. And the classic Greensleeves is one of the latter, along with a number of others I could mention. One of my great enjoyments is to pick out a melody on the harp, a melody of my own invention, but started by random notes that set the mode, then try to improvise a contination in that mode. It can be very pretty (and the audience doesn't know the difference). Actually, well played, a lot of melodies can stand on their own. Perhaps I'm a rebel in a fixed community, but more likely Your description of perception (the Vermeer vs. whoever) is quite correct. Assignment does matter, but they may yet be apochryphal. None of us ever heard Dowland play Lacrimae. Hoagie Carmichael wrote a song in ragtime, up tempo, that never made it. It was called Stardust. A producer suggested he slow it down into a ballad, and we have a classic (no, not renaissance - but a pop classic). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Hear, hear Dr. Marion, > In my opinion how it could be used is more important than what you call it. Depending on how you tune a six-course instrument, it could function as a guitar, requinto (actually a "requinto" lute in this case), renaissance lute, a laud, or a mandolino lombardo ottavo. > I think I've been trying to say that for a while, the "mix and match" of shapes and string tuning is so complicated that we neglect the basic question of the music played when we name the instrument. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Greensleeves
Who cares as to the origins of such a melody, it can stand on its own. (And can be smaltzy on its own, it has had that same fate as the melody of Danny Boy/Londonderry Air in that it can be played with intrinsic melodic beauty, or can be played to the groundlings). Who cares is too strong, one should always care about finding a source if it is available. But when something becomes generally known there is always a tendency to assign it to some source, and most of those assignments are apochyphal. Personally I think it was a Ukranian folk tune, as brought from the far east by Tamurlane and built upon, that was stolen by the pervidious Britons (whom we all know never could make original music). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Non equal contra equal temperament
> Even more. I think ET is a musical embodiment of same egalitarian/republican > idea that was perpetrated on the civilization by the secret cabal of > Rosicrucians and Illuminati, and MT embodies submission to despotism and > status quo. All of this fits nicely into Platonic connection between > political systems and musical styles. (I hope DAS would assay this > someday) Do I detect a certain elitist erudition embodying an energetic effort to effect an effective exit? Rosicrucians and Illuminati as egalitarians - oh well, they might just as well have been as the former exists as a Society that advertises the "truth" in the tabloid pages (along with the phone sex ads), and the latter is an apocryphal elite. As a past master of the meaningless statement I am jealous. To combine such concepts is worthy of a novel, shall we call it The Da Vinci Code. (Not to knock that book, I enjoyed it thoroughly as a novel - but Eco's Foucault's Pendulum might be more to the point. There the fiction is the internal theme of the fiction). And I do believe that "assess" would be a better word than "assay", although both have a similar dictionary meaning. Assay is more normally used for physical qualities of substances, assess for the evaluation of ideas or argument. Isn't this silly? Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs -bone, CAVEAT
> Or walrus-tusk, referred in medieval Russian as "fish-tooth", a luxury > cabinetmaking material of the era. > RT The question was on bone, walrus tusk is an ivory - just as elephant tusk. The scrimshaw artists of the whaling ships used mainly whale bones and many were quite large, but sometimes the ivory of walrus tusks when they had taken them for food. And the occasional tusk of the narwhal ( a cetacian, not a fish). But I can't fault the medieval Russians for not knowing, everyone then thought anything that lived in the water was a fish. Mammal bone, ivory tusks, and antlers are all different materials. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Plumwood
Eugene, > A minor clarification: Prunus is the generic name of cherries and plums, > e.g., Prunus serotina (the only North American species of importance as a > timber producer) is the wild black cherry, Prunus being the genus and > serotina the specific epithet. I believe a number of European Prunus spp. > are marketed as "plumwood." These are all members of the rose family. So are you telling me that there is a "family" of woods called rose, and that within that are the genus Prunus and the genus Dalbergia which we call Rosewoods. This isn't a trivial question for one who is interested in wood. Although the characteristics of wood don't always match their taxonomic groupings it is nice to know the relationships. The biggest distinction in the growing trees is deciduous versus evergreen - is that at the family level, or a higher one. And some of each of those are soft, and some hard. Do you have a good source on the families and genii. My books are limited to the genus level. Best, Jon (and I know that local names often don't match the taxonomic name, a cedar isn't necessarily a cedar). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Non equal contra equal temperament
Arto, I should stay out of this, but I'll stick my neck out having only seen your message and the quote from RT (those included below). To me there is only one reason for ET, and that is the chromatic instruments with fixed strings (piano, harp, etc.), and the need to play them in different keys. Even meantone is a corruption of the perfection of the intervals as defined by the overtone scale. We all know the Pythagorean comma, and that all of the temperaments are compromises to handle it. (Don't pick on me, I'm trying to write briefly). The only instruments that don't need a compromise are those with continual pitch ability - like the voice and the unfretted violin. I would have said that ET was "painting by numbers", and meantone was "painting with a lot more numbers" (or shades of tone and interval). But despite that I'm an advocate of ET, it allows us ensemble play (and that is another reason for it) on instruments not set to the same base scale. What we lose in that pure, or near pure, third we gain in the flexibility of ensemble play. There is a place for each in the spectrum of musical performance. As string players we sometimes forget the need to work with instruments not easily retuned (or impossible, in the case some of the winds). ET is a "lingua franca" of tuning. Not the best for everything, but one that will work for all. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 5:40 PM Subject: Non equal contra equal temperament > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: > > > So, to drive the point as far as humanly possible: > > Meantone is painting-by-numbers, while ET permits one to say something > > meaningful and original, musically speaking. > > It is really confusing to find a "militant" or "fundamantalistic" > fighter for equal temperament in the Lute List! To this guy the ET seems > to be kind of religion? Or perhaps and likely it is just his wish to be > the troll of the List. (The word "troll" is a modern web-equivalent for > "provocator".) But if you have ever heard a pure or near pure third in > your final cadence of a lute piece of let us say 1500-1690 (or more), you > will never accept an ET 3rd there! And if you do, either your hearing or > your aesthetics has something very wrong in it... ;-) > > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Plumwood
A number of replies on this thread, and I thank you gentlemen. I'll try to come back to all in this one message. Yup, it is prunus - I goofed. And I used the plural "genera" instead of "genus". I still don't remember the classifications of taxonomy, but when one comes to wood one needs only genus and species, which leads me to believe that trees/woods are an Order (I always remember that order is subordinate to class by the phrase "order in the class" that I heard so often in elementary school). I bought the Luthier's Guild book on Lutherie Woods and Steel String Guitars (they combine the topics in one book, although I have no interest in the latter). It doesn't mention Plumwood. The only Prunus mentioned is Cherry, Prunus serotina in the US - and P. avium and P. padus in Europe - all are P. spp. I have to assume that one of them is locally called plumwood. Peaches, plums and apricots are mentioned in the category, but without the Latin species name. I may have been unclear as to my use of the cherry, I'm not using it for the pegs - I mentioned that D. vanE. had suggested it as a peg wood. And for someone who recommended against exotic woods for a first try at making a lute, he is right - I'm using the cherry for the ribs. It is just that the supplier from which I got it has the name Exotic Woods. Being in New Jersey he wants to distinguish himself from Home Depot or scrub pine. For those with comments on cherry for pegs, I wouldn't consider it - I'm making mine of cocobolo just because I have it. The question yet to be answered is what should I use for the peg box, given the cocobolo pegs. I'm looking at quartersawn hard maple for the neck, my local (70 miles away) supplier makes blanks for guitars in Eastern Flamed Maple, Hard Maple, Mahogony, Hard Curly Maple and East Indian Rosewood. And the HM and Mah can be quartersawn. The blanks can be of a thickness and width for a lute neck (they aren't strictly guitar blank. So what I have planned is to use cherry for the ribs, walnut for the spacers and mahogany for the neck block. Those woods I already have, I drove the three hour round trip to the vendor to get them. Not so much to get the woods as to meet the warehouseman/woodcutter. I now know Bill, and if I call the store and ask for him all I have to do is say "remember that guy with the lute". Bill is a south Jersey woodsman, and they are a special breed. They are a bit like the old down easterners - they will help if you ask them just right. I got the walnut for the spacers as it was ready, and easier to bend than the ebony, and Bill agreed that with a bit of stain it would make a nice contrast to the cherry. Politics are not evil when making a friend of the guy that is going to cut your wood. The rest of the plan is Englemann spruce for the soundboard, I could get the Swiss/German that is better, but why risk the more expensive wood on a first try. So the remaining decision is the wood for the pegbox (nut, fingerboard and bridge I have covered). I'd guess that the hard maple would match with the cocobolo pegs, and then I wouldn't have to do a veneer to match the neck to the pegbox. I'm not looking to make a beautiful instrument, in the sense of a museum piece, just one that plays well. Any comments will be appreciated. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Somehow in the raucous banter on the thread my original question got lost, except for Tony as quoted below. > As Jon said, the modern choice of the harder material for the disposable bit > does seem odd. It also seems odd that the efforts made at the time being > directed towards lightness in the fingerboard and tailpiece a heavy wood > would be added for the pegs. Is there a logical reason, aside from the pure question of the strength of the peg, to make the replaceable peg of a harder substance than the peg box - which is a part of the lute/violin whatever. I'll give a possible answer to my question, playing off Tony's comments. (Noting on the side that weight isn't always definer of wear hardness in woods, one can have more cellular cohesion in a slightly less dense wood, but tha is the exception). The strength/density of the peg wood is a required value, it must be enough to hold the tension of the strings (at the extreme, balsa wood would be light, but would break at the first sign of tension). So perhaps the old boys chose their peg woods for the strength of the peg, and their peg box woods for the lightness (within reason) of the weight at the head end of the instrument. After all, the volume of the pegs is far less than the volume of the pegbox, so the density of the pegbox would contribute more total weight than the density of the pegs. OOPS, just to show I'm always learning. I always figured that the back angled pegbox of the lute was to keep the lutenist from knocking the flute players instrument by sticking out too far . Of course, it reduces the mechanical moment, and therefore the effective weight of the head. I'm sure you all knew that, but the best way for me to learn is to figure it out for myself. So the question remains, other than that a lighter wood for the pegbox would reduce the headweight (as I suggest above) is there any other logical reason to use a "softer wood" for the pegbox than the peg. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: historical pinky off ??
>The fellow I got it from Sterling Price claims if you rest your LF there > you become possessed. > Michael Thames Possessed by what. I don't mind if I'm possessed by the instrument, I'm already that. And I'm possessed by my cat, as is anyone with a cat. But I'm not sure if I'd want to play it were the possession to involve demons and exorcism. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Continuo - bass lute
David, We've had honey and tar, and thoughts from afar, We've had staff, tabulation and forms of notation, The R&B bass hasn't yet shown its face, And thats well as it has no relation. Hell's bells, the specific continuo for a specific piece, to be performed HIP might require a specific instrument. But the sense of the continuo should more probably be the sense of the music. I suggest that any instrument that either matches, or compliments, the lute part could be used as continuo. My complaint with the specifics (call it the HIP if you want) is that it denigrates those old musicians whom we so worship. It suggests that they wouldn't have liked to experiment with their own sound, and ensemble. It is we moderns who have fixed the music to a period, the players of the time didn't know they were in a period - they just played music as they heard it - and some of them innovated within the structure, and some made major innovations. That is called the evolution of music, but like the evolution of species there is a lot of overlap. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
OK, I've read all the messages in the thread and yet have a confusion. A confusion about what is desirable. (Note my earlier comment on the intentionally wearable nylon gear in the speedometer). Why would a luthier want to have the inevitable wear between peg and peg holes be either random or in the peg box? I note the comments on violin bushings inserted to repair the peg head. I would think that the design would be for the peg to wear out rather than the hole enlarge. Admittedly, in the short term, if the hole wears the peg can be inserted deeper, but in the long term the peg box, peg head, is more difficult to fix than making a new peg. This isn't a critical comment, it is a real question. The old masters of violin and lute construction must have had a reason to make the pegs as hard as the peg box, or harder. But I don't see the logic. Remember the 1890s poem about the One Horse Shay - it was built so no part was weaker than any other part, and it lasted and lasted with no repairs, until one day they all failed at once and it fell into dust. I would think that the peg should be just a bit softer than the peg hole - hard enough to not break, but soft enough so the wear would be on the easily replaceable part. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Peter, With David I point out that silica (SiO2) is the oxide of the element silicon, and add that the silicon chips of Silicon Valley aren't actually pure silicon (in the late '40s my father, a researcher in solid state physics at Bell Labs, sent out an internal memo speculating on the possibilities of a P/N junction in doped crystals. He was working with quartz which was too stable, but Schockley's team was working with germanium. Nine months after his memo they came up with the germanium transistor. He couldn't prove that the idea came from his memo - but that is the way the Labs worked). OK, done my little paean to my late father, back to silicon. You wonder where the high silica ebony might come from. How about anywhere near a beach. Beach sand is basically silica. But it could also come from a higher area under a geological upthrust. Sandstone is also heavily silica, and some things that were beaches in geological history are now mountains overlying forests. The leeching of the silica into the water supply would bring it up into the wood. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Plumwood
Michael, You mention Plum for pegs, I bit the bullet before starting my "from scratch" lute and spent the money for David van Edwards CD course. He has a rather good discussion of the various woods, and nicely adds the North American available equivalents as well as he can assess them. He suggested Plum as an alternative for ribs for the first timer, but we don't have much Plum here. Cherry was his suggested N.A. substitute (and I'm using that). It seems they are the same (Plumus s.p.p.) genera (is that the level, I always forget the levels of taxonomy). Would cherry have the same characteristics for pegs as the plum you are using? Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Continuo
Thomas, Thanks for the answer. I had read of those numerics for the intervals, but had forgotten (a function of being aged). So it seems you are saying that the continuo is a bass line with indications of the intervals one may add on top of that line. That sounds like an early form of a "fake book" (oh, will I get nailed on that one). A main line against the melody, and a chord structure to complement it as desired (the interval figures) - whereas the "fake book" gives the chords to be played, with no indication of the appropriate inversions. So the continuo has more information, as it shows a line. But a good ear should be able to work that out from the chording and make the appropriate inversions. Am I close? Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:05 AM Subject: Re: Continuo I haven't seen somebody's answering your email. Continuo is the abbreviation for basso continuo which means figured bass. It actually is exactly this, a base part with additional numbers telling you the intervals which you should play in addition to the bass note (and usually there is always a 3 to add - that makes the fun out of it: some numbers you need to add others are better to omit because they don't go well along with the lute part). Continuo can be plyed on any instrument. If there is a group of instruments sharing the continuo then it could be possible for higehr pitched instruments to play just the figures and omit the bass. But in any case the bass part has to be played within the group by somebody. Best wishes Thomas Am Sonntag, 6. März 2005 04:55 schrieb Jon Murphy: > Alright, I confess again to a lack of knowledge. Can someone define > continuo? My musical dictionary defines it as an abbreviation for basso > continuo (see figured bass). I don't go by dictionarys, but it would seem > that the term means the playing of a polyphonic line to complement the > melody, perhaps as a rhythmic base, as well as bass, in concert. It would > seem that any instrument that fits would fit. In my harp ensemble I often > play a steady bass when I'm not familiar enough with the piece. Is that > continuo? Must it be in a lower register, or could it be just a steady form > to carry the melody, and divisions. I ask. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Taggerts Delight
Goran, What happened to Afternoon Delight? . Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
Dana, Very informative Dana, thank you. BTW, I'm not sure why I said that the pegbox and the peg wouldn't grab if they were the same material. I was thinking of wood, and as that is (more or less, depending on the wood) hygroscopic then both pegbox and peg will swell and and shrink under the same circumstances. It must have been late when I typed that. I concur as to the different materials for smooth bearings (and have no intent of using anything but wood for my pegbox and pegs). One doesn't want to wear both materials, one wants to wear the easier replaced part. I first met that issue when I bought one of the first Toyotas (car) imported here ( an el cheapo then, but well engineered - they were opening the market). The speedometer broke after only a couple of years. I popped the drive cable and found a nylon gear that was completely worn out. I went to the dealer and complained, he sold me a new gear for a few bucks and explained that it was designed to wear out. After all, if the other gear wore out (the one attached to the drive shaft) one would have to pull the transmission apart to replace it. Better to make the easily accessible gear of wearable material so the internal one would be "forever". I think I'd rather need to make a new peg than replace the pegbox. I haven't chosen the wood for my pegbox yet, but I'll keep that in mind when I do. Your comments solicited. As to the guitar tuning machines, I still don't think they would affect the sound. I can't see the weight of the head having an effect on the resonance. A way to test would be to play an example of each on one's lap like a mountain dulcimer - but where would one find two equal lutes, one with machines and one with pegs. It is irrelevant to me as I'm not considering it - but I might get a chance to experiment. My little charango that I bought from Bolivia for a price I couldn't equal just in buying the wood has guitar machines. The weight in the head is so awful for the balance that I use a saxaphone neck strap to hold up the head. Someday I may try to convert it to pegs, hadn't thought of that before, but it could be fun. It only cost me $60, and the carved body is the beautiful part so fussing with the pegbox wouldn't ruin it. Good point on the kinks at the bend points, but I think it is usually gradual enough in retuning that it is a small factor. But I note you mention "gently stroking the strings" to equalize tension along the string. I wonder if we are thinking of the same thing. Years ago, when I was playing guitar nightly in saloons, I would break a string at the most inconvenient time. Nothing will make a new string hold pitch as it stretches and settles, but my technique to speed the process was to take my thumb and forefinger and make "micro stretches" of the new string by running them up and down the string with rapid squeezes, perhaps a half inch of string stretch between the two fingers. Admittedly I was making local stretches, which should make the string inconsistant over the length - but as I was doing it quickly I was hitting random points and probably made a relatively uniform stretch. Whatever, it worked. I could stretch the string about a half tone with a couple of passes, then tune up. Then repeat as necessary. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
Tim, By now you know that I'm an inveterate tinkerer, and have made some on the list think I'm a bit off base. But I agree with the comments on friction and Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, and shouldn't affect the sound. But I don't think I'll use them. I may not be HIP, but I think I'd like to make good pegs that work. And the peg box will be affected by the weather anyway, even if the Delrin isn't. Smooth tuning is a combination of the pegs and the nut (the wound courses may catch a bit). But as the only one here who is playing that "lute" from Musikits (the flatback so denigrated, even though the cittern is flatbacked) I'll add a point. My friend Jerry who designed it didn't know much about pegged strings under tension. The flat back is almost impossible to tune as it has a "peg board" instead of a "peg box". I've learned that in making pegs, and tuning that beast (but it is yet probably the best way for a beginner to decide if they want a real lute). With a single friction hole in the peg board (@ 3/4" thick) the "grab" versus the easy tuning is a matter of pulling the peg out a bit, tuning, then shoving it in - then trying to see if you got it right, and likely doing it again. The peg box of the traditional lute gives friction on both ends of the peg (and preferably a bit more at the wide end to avoid peg breakage). I suggest that there is no material that will give the "right amount of grab" unless the peg box is made of the same material. The Delrin peg won't swell with humidity, but the wooden peg box will. I am too new to this to make a definitive opinon, but my initial reaction would be toward a similar wood, and a careful tapering, for peg and peg box. And with that 3/4" pegboard, and commercial ebony violin pegs, I know from "grab" and "slip". Friction is necessary, and smooth friction is desirable. I hope my pegs will be that. But I wouldn't use to totally different materials to gain that. Delrin is great for saddles and nuts, but I'd question it for pegs. After all, the lute would sound no different if you put guitar mechanisms on it. That which is behind the nut stays there. And what is wrong with a bit of a guess on tuning, it is our ears rather than the exact frequencies recorded by the electronic tuner that hear the sound. I use my tuner for my harp as I need to tune 52 strings, but I use the tuning fork and my ears for the lute. Nothing is perfect, particularly music. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:49 PM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > >David, > What I'm curious about is the smoothness of the tuning action. Even > with a peg turned, shaved, and polished at the right taper and the > peg-holes reamed properly, there is still an issue sometimes with > pegs that don't turn smoothly. That can make tuning more of a guess > than a precise action, especially if the weather isn't cooperating. > If you compare a wooden peg to a good guitar tuning machine, it is > both the mechanical advantage of the gears and the greater precision > of the action that make the guitar easier to tune (relatively > speaking). > > Musicians playing instruments with wooden pegs use a variety of > materials like wax and peg dope to get just the right degree of > friction while maintaining smoothness. I'm just curious whether > there is a material that would always give the right amount of grab > but still allow for a smooth tuning action, no matter what the > weather. A very fine instrument built by a real craftsman probably > has fewer problems with tuning than the ones I've built for myself. > I'm not likely to be able to afford a fine instrument, though, and I > still would like one with smooth tuning action. But maybe it's like > that joke about how to get to Carnegie Hall -- practice. > > I understand what you're saying, though. Even short of splitting the > cheeks of the pegbox, you can get a jammed peg. > > As I said, I just like to tinker with things. > > Tim > > > > > > > Original Message > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Cameron) > >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > >Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:58:48 -0500 > > > >>Timothy Motz wrote: > >> > >>"Craig, > >>You and Steve are probably right about both the friction and > >>flexibility. My next thought would be to insert Delrin bushings in > >>the peg head. I'll probably never do it, but I can't resist > >>tinkering with things" > >> > >> > >>I don't understand why the lower friction of the Delrin would be a > >benefit. > >>If you lower the friction, you just have to push the pegs in harder > >to get > >>them to hold the string tension. Too little friction leads to too > >much push, > >>and the cheeks of the pegbox split. > >> > >>David Cameron > >> > >> > >> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-ad
Re: Continuo
Alright, I confess again to a lack of knowledge. Can someone define continuo? My musical dictionary defines it as an abbreviation for basso continuo (see figured bass). I don't go by dictionarys, but it would seem that the term means the playing of a polyphonic line to complement the melody, perhaps as a rhythmic base, as well as bass, in concert. It would seem that any instrument that fits would fit. In my harp ensemble I often play a steady bass when I'm not familiar enough with the piece. Is that continuo? Must it be in a lower register, or could it be just a steady form to carry the melody, and divisions. I ask. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Pegs, revisited
Just to pass on a moment of joy. Tonight I turned a short (6cm shaft) test peg from cocobolo. (The blocks I was able to get are 15" long, so there is a 3" wastage that I'm using for practice). I opened a beer, turned on the TV, and sat with my home made shaper grinding away. As I got the rough peg deeper and deeper into the shaper I noted that at all times I was getting shavings off the full length, right down to the last turn. Never believed it would happen first try. And the peg worked well in a set of test blocks reamed to different widths. Now to see if I can shape the head nicely. The correlary joy came from finding I can get four pegs out of each length of the 1 5/16 square block by halving it then cutting the halves at a mild diagonal. It leaves a flat at the head, but I haven't had a problem with break out. So the three blocks I bought, expecting six pegs per block, will make me 36 pegs - and a number of end pegs. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: humidity
Ed, I'll leave the humidity for instruments to others, but will comment on the electronics (as an old hardware designer). Almost everything electronic nowadays is made with integrated circuits in sealed chips mounted on circuit board with connecting lands that are also sealed. The solder points are the only thing exposed to moisture. That doesn't mean you can dunk them in the bathtub, but atmospheric moisture should have no effect. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: humidity > What is the ideal humidity for lutes & instruments? (How about > electronics?) I recently bought a cheap hygrometer and it is > fluctuating between 30 and 40%. > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Period typesetting
Craig, Although this book doesn't deal with typesetting specifically you might want to look at it. It has a large number of facsimiles of both type set and hand written music from the 15th and 16th centuries. The book is titled Composers at work, The Craft of Musical Composition 1450-1600. The author is Jesse Ann Owens, a Professor of Music at Brandeis University and a specialist in Renaissance music. The book wasn't expensive, although I can't find a price on my copy. It is published by Oxford University Press and the ISBN is 0-19-512904-0. The topic is the process of composition of that time, but the correlary is the ways of writing it down. There is very little on tabulature documents, it is mainly involved with staff notation as it tracks the development from vocal written music to instrumental in that period. I think it might be of interest to many on this list who enjoy the history of our music. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Period typesetting Greetings All, I sent this last night but for some reason it hasn't appeared on the list by now so I'll try again. Apologies if the first one does show up and you get this twice. I have been researching typesetting of the 16th century as it pertains to the publication of music and lute manuscripts in particular. In speaking with some typesetters that I know they tell me there are no extant examples of music specific type, even from the 20th century much less earlier. For as much music as came out of period I am hoping this is wrong and that there are some extant examples of music type tucked away in museums somewhere. To that end I am hoping some of you may know of these or, at the very least, can point me to some iconography or texts on the subject. I have seen one late 17th c. French book on the subject of the type foundry, but anything earlier would be greatly appreciated. My thanks in advance for your assistance. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Off-center pegs
> interesting, I am griinding away my patrience making one from 3/16 in flat- > ground tool steel stock. you even get mounting holes your way, perhaps even > slotted holes, I have to file those (yet). Yup, three "in/out" slots and two "left/right slots. > difference in lathes, mine is an engine lathe, intended for working metal. I dont > have the usual wood-turning centers for it, only the three and four-jaw chucks, so > I do what I can with those. Understood, I have an old Austrian made "mini lathe/multi tool" (forgotten the name) that is basically for metal, but it is torn apart and soaking in oil as I neglected it for years). My wood lathe is a Delta Midi that I got on sale for about $250 a few years back (before I thought of pegs). It has a 10" turning diameter and a 16" spindle length, and fits in the converted closet in my apartment that I use for a workshop. > Look for scraps at a cabinetmaker. Consider using thin plastic 'glass', scraps of > which should be available at many hardware stores. Some hardware stores sell > styrene to hobbyists for projects, this is also suitable and easily worked (being > a hobbyist I have some of course). No problem, the tile works quite well. But may I point out a source of the "unfindable". David van E.'s instructions suggest using poly carb templates for the ribs so that one can work the mold and the ribs with a bendable template. Yellow pages, Home Depot, Lowes, hardware stores, plastic specialists - no luck. Then I was in the city to see my dentist, and I use the Holland Tunnel as he is in the Village (where I lived for years). As I left I planned a side trip to a plastics place in Somerset, NJ. Then I had a "sartori" - Canal Street! You can get the hydraulic motivators for aircraft landing gear (if you are into that), or almost anything else. But you can't park. Not only did I see two "Plastics stores" in my first pass, but as I made the one way street circle to come back to the half hour parking lot I'd seen I came upon an open metered space a block from the stores. Somebody up there likes me. Fifty cents for the meter, and the first store had vinly, poly carbonate, styrene and everything else in sheets of various dimensions and thickness. And in clear, translucent, and multi colors. Canal Street is the home craftsman's heaven. > Perhaps I work at a slower speed, I find it necessary to have full diameter to > avoid chip-out on the finished surface and to keep control of files when shaping > the profile. I can't quarrel there, I haven't fully finished a peg head using David's process. The cocobolo blanks I bought are of a length such that I've got a three inch segment after I cut the three full length segments, so I'm testing on those short segments. I have the feeling that I may have the chip out on the head, but I might as well try to get four pegs instead of two out of the segments. My blocks are 1 3/8 square by 16" long. If I can turn the head with the flat I can get four pegs per segment, else only two. I have broken the head on one, but I blamed it on a badly sharpened tool (which I'm reshaping). > > I'm using cocobolo for the pegs, and I bought some "eye wash" that is needed > > after turning that. > > I hope you also work with a vacuum claener sucking up the dust, wear a suitable > dust mask, and keep pets and humans out of the room while are working that stuff. We don't need no stinkin' vacuums , we are tough. Actually I'm awaiting a new Sears item, a portable dust collector for about $120 that is back ordered. It looks like a barfly from the saloon in Star Wars, but it should work without scaring the cat (the vacuum noise sends her into a closet for hours). Being 70 (approximately) I'm not worried about long term effects of cocobolo dust (and I don't buy green bananas). Lastly, where do you buy your wood? I found a place in south Jersey in David van E.'s vendor list - Exotic Woods in Sicklerville. Their prices are commensurate with the various internet shops I've seen. And they have most of what I want. I'll order my soundboard wood from them, probably. They have the Englemannii, and the Swiss/German (I'll go for the Englemann, grade 3 of 5, this is a first try and I'm not looking for perfection until my skills are up. But I'd like to know if you have a local supplier on L.I. or in the general area. I do order things on the internet, but only things I've seen or have a trust in. I visited Exotic, and they are my kind of shop - an Indian owner who isn't that involved, and an old south Jersey piney in the warehouse who knows what he is doing. Now I can order the rest of my wood from them by calling Bill (the woodsman) and telling him what I want, then actually order it from the office. Always make friends with the guy who does the cutting and selection. BTW, you Longislanders may not know it, but south Jersey is below the Mason Dixon line, and has more of the manners of the old south (and the same rednecks) than the rest of the st
Re: Off-center pegs
Tim, I concur your solution, you may remember that I said you might be "pressing too hard" in the shaver. The "too much wood" is the correlary of the pressing too hard. Come to think of it, I've had the same problem with an electric pencil sharpener - do it too fast and the pencil comes out uneven. I know the Vega duplicator, and was thinking of getting one. But I blew my budget on the Luthier's Friend and the commercial bending iron (and I mentioned that I bought the latter in self defense as I didn't want to use a home made bending iron, involving fire or electricity, in a condo apartment where I would be sued should anything happen and I were using an "unapproved" device). So I'm stuck with the hand turning, and I must admit I quite enjoy it (except I had to buy a bottle of eyewash as I'm using cocobolo and the dust is a bit annoying to the eyes). I am unable to resist this, even though I'm a Republican. > And thank God (and Chad) Was this a quote from GWB in 2000? Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Off-center pegs
Dana and Timothy, I haven't gotten my lute to the point of needing pegs, but being one who likes to change gears I've gotten into the peg making while I'm still finishing the mold. Tim, you know I bought David v.E's course on your advice. I've made myself a shaver, partly because they are so damned expensive and partly because I didn't see one I wanted. I have a rule for the house, if it involves heat or electricity I pay the price (I live in a condo apartment, and were I to make a fire with a tool I'd made I'd be in trouble with the insurance, and suits from the neighbors). So I spent the money for a commercial bending iron, even though I could have made one. As to the shaver, one can get two double sided planer blades at Sears for about $11 (no way to get one, they are in two packs). That solves the tempering and whatever that involves fire. I can only think that Tim is either a bit out of alignment with the shaver, or pressing too hard. (I've been making good pegs, even though I haven't a real peg box for the lute yet I've made a "dummy one" to test the pegs). The final cuts by the shaver should shave the entire peg, the shaper should be set up so all the uneven points are taken out before fully inserting the peg. As to the turning, I've been following Davids plan. I can't see the rechucking that Dana is doing. I was turning wood before doing this, so have a number of tools. But David does his with only a roughing guouge and a 3mm cut off tool. He makes a template of formica (couldn't find a piece cheap enough, so I bought a stick on floor tile for about 89 cents. He over lengths the blank and uses a three blade pin drive, I have a nice two blade of just the right diameter to avoid chipping the tool on the drive, and a live center at the other end. I don't have to rechuck. So let me suggest the process. First round the blank (not necessarily fully, as one can make the blank thinner on one axis where the head is flattened to save wood). Turn a deep groove into the head end (drive end) with the cut off tool to leave a piece that will later be cut off, but is the drive vehicle. Then do it again, the head length below the first cut. Now you have a set point that will be the wide point of the taper (use the template to test). Then do the same at the far end, with the template for the desired small end (but leave a bit for the cut off). Now shape the taper from the already cut depth of the top and the small end. David does this with what looks in his photos to be a large roughing gouge (I think he has only two turning tools, the 3mm cut off and the roughing gouge, but it works for him). I tried a skew chisel on my first try at making a taper, but I happen to own a Sorby Spindlemeister which is perfect for that cut. A spindle gouge would do also. Once the taper is made, using the template at both ends (and I added a middle, and one should mark the template in distance from the top of the peg head. And the taper should be a hair oversized. Then on can rough out the profile of the head, and any ridges between the head and the taper. At this point we still are chucked as the blank was originally chucked (wrong word, I don't use my jawed chucks - I punch set the two ends of the blank and press in the two blade drive). What we have is a false head, then a deep cut, then the part that will be the real peg head, then a small space for decorative ridges, or whatever. Then the taper, a hair oversized. And at the tail a bit extra where the live center has driven in. Now, still "chucked" between centers, shape the profile of the peg head. Once that is done one can remove the peg an cut it off at head and tail, or just cut them on the lathe (being careful to catch the flying peg). Now to the scraper (pencil sharpener), and the band saw or belt sander, or both to cut the sides of the peg head. The key to all this talk is a basic. No turner can ever exactly duplicate a rechucking without luck. Never rechuck unless really necessary. I'm using cocobolo for the pegs, and I bought some "eye wash" that is needed after turning that. Tim, I made a thickness guage, not from your suggestion, nor from anyone else's drawings. I'll send a picture on day. One Sear's gauge at $35, plus about $5 worth of scrap. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Mutations. Does it matter?
Chris, I think you have the problem nailed, polyphony had a great influence in the development of the scale. I realize that I neglected the hexachord scale in my previous message, as I neglected the tetrachord scale. But my statement of the "octave" was correct. The doubling or halving of a frequency will result in a perfect harmony as all the overtones will be the same (just higher or lower). But I don't understand your saying that gamut is a contrivance. As I understand it gamut is just the name for the lowest note in the medieval hexachord scales which ran from G to e''. That low G was designated by the capital Greek gamma, and therefore was the gamma ut. The next ut was the "la" of that scale (c), and so forth. Ah so, now I think I see where Mathias hears the ascending and descending (I am looking at a layout of a seven hexachord scale that is reputed to be the real thing). The "fa" in the 3rd hexachord and the 6th hexachord is a Bb, whereas the "mi" in the 4th and 7th is a B #. So my question to Mathias was wrong. I was assuming the change was a matter of the notorious comma and temperament. But it still comes to the matter of where the mutation is made. It would seem that the forms were in transition as polyphony came into fashion, and that there may have been some contrivances in wording, but not in the music. This is of interest, and I have to go to my book on early composition and follow up. In the meantime I beg the list to accept these first views with an open mind. I have a lot of facsimiles of early vocal staff notation - as vocal is where I started. Most of these seem to be in octave format, and some are quite early. I'd be curious to know why the hexachord scale ever existed. The Greek tetrachord was a perfect fourth (with the intervening second and third a bit undefined as to exact pitch. Understandable, the string range wouldn't have been great and the instruments were basically a "chorus" behind the story teller. But once an instrument could have a greater range (and the voi ce always had that) why would one stop the scale on the sixth (la) when Pythagorous had investigated string vibrations and sound over a millenium before. My best guess is that because the music was sacred the church set traditions, and then musicians bent the traditions to the church. I doubt that the harpists and pipers of the towns had such theoretical scales, note the unique scale of the Scots pipes (not unique, just limited). With the indulgence of you all I'd like to continue in this thread, you have forced me to my bookshelves and have made this senior citizen's mind have to work a bit (and learn a lot). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Lute game for MS Windows.
Mathias, > well, yes, it does. I, for one, when I play renaissance music, enjoy > listening to ascending and descending lines that follow the habits of > their respective modes. It's fun and it makes that music so much more > interesting to me. You have lost me here, perhaps it is my lack of formal early music education. This is a question, not a quarrel. I don't see how the ascending and descending lines can differ on a fretted instrument. I'm interpreting your meaning as being that the intervals subtly vary (as they can on a violin type instrument) depending on the direction. One has to eat the Pythagorean comma somewhere. But it was my understanding that the several forms of tempering on fixed pitch/note instruments (fretted, harp, piano, etc) were a way solve the comma by averaging. Not because it wanted solution, but because it needed it when the note pitches were fixed by the frets whatever the direction of flow. I'm sure you are right, but please help me in understanding it. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Lute game for MS Windows.
I'm with Chris on this one. Give Herb a break, if he tried to make the first pass all things to all musicians he'd never finish it (no reflection on your programming skills Herb, I quote what we used to call Von Neumann's Law in the early computer business - any system, no matter its percent completion, is always two years from fruition). "What is in a name?". An octave is an octave, no matter the scale pattern or nomenclature. (Yes, I know that if we divided the scale into a different number of notes the term "octave" might be nonade or pentade, but then in our western twelve note scale it really should be called a duodecade, and a minor third a fourth). The matter of temperament is irrelevant as it is taken care of in the tuning of the frets (or in the fingering on unfretted instruments). As to other scales, again I go with Chris - for most of us it is enough to deal with our own scale without getting into oriental or other scales. And, neglecting temperament, our scale is the same as the medieval and renaissance in the number of intervals. I'm not sure when the division of the natural octave (or whatever you want to call it - the doubling of frequency) into 12 half tones came about, but it has been consistant in western music for a long time - just the details of the intervals have changed with changes in temperament. BTW Chris, what is the "common-practice theory system". My formal training stopped over fifty years ago (my last text book was Roger Sessions' Harmonic Practice (1951). But I still refer to it (and to Fux, which is a bit older). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: urinals and synchronicity on the A-flat/G sharp dilemma
Alain, I'll have to look through my files for the listings of my late father's articles at Bell Labs and then The Rockefeller Institute (it was that before it became University). Your comments on the musical brain are well taken, and of interest, but I have a bit of a quarrel with the question of the funding of science. One doesn't have to be a Bible Belching Fundamentalist to have a problem with massive funding of every scientific inquiry - one can be an atheistic conservative of scientific background (and the Fundies are also looking for funding to prove their views - it isn't left or right). Let's pick embryonic stem cell research as an example (as it is a bugaboo for the Christian right and a shibboleth for the secular left). California has passed a bond issue to provide 10 billion for it, I'm not sure of the time frame or details. This is silly, in the 1968 Presidential campaign one candidate said "you don't cure a problem by throwing money at it". Humphrey said that, not Nixon. In this day of immediate gratification we seem to think that anything can be cured by funding it. (And this relates to your comments on science education). But basic research can't be done that way. Basic research must be funded, the deep understanding of the principles of biology and the physical universe (including Arthropod's familial relationships ) are the groundwork for future practical cures. But the idea that massive funding will produce results is merely a "job program" for mediocre scientists. We did massively fund the Kennedy challenge (a political one) for a "man on the moon" - but that wasn't basic science, it was engineering. The principles were already known and the massive effort provided a solution (but not necessarily the best one). If I want a grant for research I should have to show some theory, and some intended method. The NSF shouldn't be funding a thousand monkeys on typwriters trying to write Shakespeare's works. But the advocates of clinical cures, as well intentioned as they may be, corrupt the progress by demanding instant funding. (The AIDS activists are an example). The lack of future American scientists is a serious problem, I agree with you there. But so is the lack of knowledge in general. (A poll the other day on our "greatest Presidents" had side questions, a minority knew that Geo. Washington had be the commanding general in the Revolution). This is not the fault of the narrow minded Christian right in the Bible Belt (who deny Evolution, even though I can justify it with their scripture with a single question - "how long is a day to a universal god?"), nor is it the fault of the "politically correct" left who won't treat historical issues if they "might reduce the self esteem" of a student. It is the fault of a culture that has lost the value of learning and become one where everything is taught. (And nothing is taught). We have calls for more money for higher education, the colleges. Everyone should have the right to go to college. Bull! Everyone should have the right to a primary education, and a good one. We have continually bumped the responsibility for education to higher levels over the years. When I entered college in 1953 I had to have a reading knowledge of two modern languages (other than English) and one ancient one - and my public high school offered that. I had to have a grounding in physics and chemistry - and my public high school offered that. And an ability to write the English language, and a modicum of history, and whatever. The SATs tested all that. But now I see college graduates who know less of the learning outside their speciality than I needed to get in. Funding isn't the answer, if it is blind funding. The NEA was rightly de-funded (no pun intended) when it supported such arts as chocolate painting (not sure if they did that, but the "experts" did fund a number of rather off the wall artists). I come back to my comment in a previous message. I'm sure Duchamp is laughing "his wings off" at his urinal being pronounced the seminal art work of the century. Even artists get to make a joke at times, particularly when it is at the expense of the critics. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: universal music data exchange format
Marion, I'll make one last try at what I was saying. I was not speaking of eliminating tabulature or staff notation - or any other way of passing music from one person to another. I'll have to be more boring than usual and mention that I spent a long time in data communication - and still have an original copy of the Proposed Standards from mid seventies somewhere in my bookshelves. That standard, which was basically implemented as proposed, had seven levels of activity - the seventh Hell being the raw transmission and machine level handshaking. It is the sixth level I'm thinking of - the assembly of the message into a standard format. Using a parallel standard the various music software programs could be transmitted between the different programs. A header to define the notation, the key, the voices and other relevant things. Then a message body to send the "music". That way any receiving program with the capability of that notation could recreate it. And in fact the header wouldn't need to define the notation, if the standard were done well. The receiving program could be asked to print it in any notation. Notations are a readable representation of music, and each has its value for particular instruments. I read tab for my lute and staff for my harp - and they are convertible from one to the other, we all do that by hand (and some with a computer program). So my suggestion was only that there be a uniform notation for transmission that all music software vendors would agree to so they could accept any other software's transmission. Much music is sent in a graphic format, that is "in effect" a pixel equivalent. Then there is the protocol for "audio transmission". My suggestion is merely that there be a lower level protocol that then can be translated by the receiving program into the desired format. This is only for the data transmission. It would be a difficult task, as all subtleties of notation would have to be covered (like the possible different frets for the same note), but if done it would ease the task of all programmers in the future. BTW, one can reflect pronunciation in print - consider G.B.Shaw's spelling of "fish" - "ghoti" (gh as in enough, o as in the plural of woman, and ti as in motion). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: maiden flight
Congratulations Stephan, I haven't yet enjoyed that experience on the lute, but have used other instruments (and voice) in concert in a similar role as the continuo. Another message mentions responsibility and self suffiency. I agree, but interpret them differently. I often claim that music is a song, and as such should be played freely. But that doesn't apply in concert to all lines. Someone must take the responsibility to play strictly, and that takes a self sufficiency of control. I may be wrong about lute music, you all know I'm new to it. But it seems that the continuo has a parallel in all forms of unconducted small group music, the bass that sets the background and the overall pace that the moving parts can play off of. So I concur in your pleasure. My small harp ensemble plays a number of two and three line medieval pieces and I often find myself alone on the "continuo" as my harp is double strung so by playing both hands in unison I can make a solid grounding. It is fun, and challenging, to repeat the same thing in the same way and maintain the tempo against the distraction of the "runs" and syncopations. A different fun than playing with freedom, but fun nonetheless. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: maiden flight Dear all, I just returned from my first real continuo gig ever (in an all Monteverdi programme and still on my 8-course) and I must say, I began to feel what people like about playing continuo. It was such a great joy and it gave me the creeps for the first time in a concert I was involved myself. :-) Very happy (and a bit drunk), Stephan -- Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/m2/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: composers style, analysing for
Alain, Well said, I think (?). You say that the receivers of "Art" aren't just the judges (most of them self proclaimed), but despite that it is too often that they are the definers of "Art". W.S. Gilbert based his operetta Patience on that. (If this young man can think such thoughts that are far too deep for me, then what a very singularly deep young man this deep young man must be.) Rousseau and the Enlightenment had a desire to make an absolute of human experience, sort of like the quantifiers of the Twentieth C., but in another way. I can't fault Duchamp for his urinal, in fact I love it. I'm sure he would be laughing hard if he could know it was just voted the most significant "Art" expression of the 20th C. Art isn't a thing to be defined. Art should involve a certain amount of craft, or imagination that strikes the observer. The beauty of a sunset isn't art as it isn't made by a craft, but it is a transient beauty that will strike the observer in a similar way as a work of art - and note that the phrase is "work" of art. A drinking glass is a practical object that can be an ordinary tumbler or a finely shaped and etched piece of crystal. But it isn't the crystal alone, it is the shape and carving. Then there are the Christos of the world, I wonder if he intentionally undresses the judges of the "Art World" or if he is with them in parading the "Emperor's New Clothes" (I've seen Central Park). I could go on forever (and you probably think I have), but I'd like to address the machines. A late friend of mine was a fine jazz pianist (and pianist in general), but had to make a living as a piano tuner for much of his life (luck of the draw). He denigrated the electronic music and keyboards - and I pointed out to him that the machines allowed a musician without the craft to make musical art, what of the person with the music in his head but no ability to use his hands. As Frank aged he tried the electronic keyboard as he was in a small NYC apartment, and came around to my view. Yet I feel there is a requirement for craft. I enjoy Mondrian's constructions on canvas of geometric shapes and sharp colors, but find Picasso more the artist as his early drawings show a basis in representative art that he expanded on. So I am confused in my view. A computer might be programmed to play "in the style of", but what about P.D.Q. Bach? Peter Schickle can play in the style of anyone from the top of his head - and Victor Borge was no slouch at that either. Turing defined the intelligent computer back in the late thirties, and I never agreed it could be done. The Swingle Singers put Bach into skat, and I think old Johannes would have loved it. So I will come to an absolute conclusion - I am absolutely sure that I don't know how to define art - but I can define "Art", it is what the self appointed judges get paid a lot of money to define for you. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Alain Veylit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:08 PM Subject: Re: composers style, analysing for > Arto, > Da Vinci argued that painting was superior to sculpture on the grounds > that sculpture was messy and dirty and involved generally more muscle > effort than painting. > I have always had a problem with the holy sanctity of human imagination > and the composer's all-important intention - these are myths that come > down to us from Rousseau and 19th century music publishers who could > claim that they are selling you the "real" thing. > Lutes are little machines, technologically very advanced devices that > involved precise scientific knowledge on the part of their makers. In a > very real way, musicians are dependent on the current state of > technology and their imagination can be both constrained and liberated > by "machines". > Finally, the "receivers" of a work of art are not just judges: they are > active participants who can profoundly alter the function and purpose of > an object. Art is not just in the eye of the beholder, it is the eye of > the beholder. That's why I guess Duchamp presented his public with a > urinal: so they could transform it into art, without any intervention on > his part. > Picasso transformed the wannabe-art of Africa into a valuable commodity > in the West. Africans just kept on doing what they had being doing all > along - at least for a while. Lots of people get paid a lot of money to > let you know what you should see and think about when you see a "real" > work of art. Some people get paid even more to let you know how much > that is worth exactly. Obviously, it is in those people's interest to > have you think that this had really nothing to do with the dirt, dust, > and excremental fluids generally witnessed in the real world, or the > laws of the market. > Yet, increasingly, art is made with machines: microphones, digital > media, software, TV, etc. Without those machines, you would not be > enjoying the latest Hop
Re: composers style, analysing for
Arto, I'll be on the topic in another letter, this is just to answer your parenthetical question about your use of the phrase "red herring". You used it correctly, it implies a distraction. But you might be interested in the origin of the phrase, a phrase now considered to be standard. It was an old trick used by those escaping from something to drag a smelly object across their trail to distract the dogs from their scent. So the old phrase was "drag a herring across the trail". The color of the herring is relatively new. There is a fish called a red herring, but this use of red implies Communist. It was during the Senate hearings by Sen. Joe McCarthy in the fifties, that were accusing the US State Department of harboring Communists, that some Senator or attorney with a sense of humor accused "Tailgunner Joe" of "dragging a red herring across the trail" - nicely playing on the name of the fish and McCarthy's obsession with Communists. The colorless herring has disappeared from the vernacular and now the phrase "red herring" has become a compound noun for a distraction from the main issue. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "James A Stimson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "carlos flores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:05 PM Subject: RE: composers style, analysing for > > Dear all, > > James A Stimson wrote: > > > These composing machines and programs seem able to copy lots of things > > about a composer's work, except those things that make the work worthwhile > > -- inspiration, individuality, diversity, unexpected charms, grace, > > elegance, spirit, etc. > > Are you really sure? I do not say I disagree, but in communication there > is the sender and there is the reciever. This question is philosophically > very interesting! And I would certainly not underestimate the reciever - > in our case the listener! Who is the one who really makes the art? Is > the message really sent by the artist? Or is it produced while reciving > by the reciever? > > To take an analogy from visual arts: If a painting is defined to be > painted by Rembrandt, many can see the artistic values. If after a couple > of years it is proofed that the painting was not by Rembrandt, the > artistic value diminishes - not to speak about the economical value... > > To me - in music - the claim that some piece is "composed by J.S. Bach" is > a kind of red herring (was this the saying?). Every spot of ink by him > should be a gem - and to me every spot certainly is not. Well, many are... > > But at the end, I totally agree with James: The only importantant art is > made by men/women! And the reciever is the judge! There just is, and has > been, that much of "wannabe-art" that could easily been produced by > machines, too. The "real thing" - whatever it is or could be? - cannot > be achieved without human makers! > > All the best > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Double strings
OK, I'll answer (all included to keep it together). > > Find me the lutenist, or the double strung harpist, who > > can tune all his strings absolutely to the same frequency > > I dunno about that, but, there are these people one hires to tune ones piano, they > seem able to do a pretty good job, and with lots more strings... And they have very good ears, and are working with a large instrument that holds its tune so they can take a lot of time (for which they get paid). I speak of the tuners of my day who worked without electronics. > > > The only pure sound I know of (correct me if I'm wrong all you > > experts) is a tuning fork. > > mmm, the human voice is pretty good too, and it was considered the model of choice > historically. There I disagree in part. My old choirmaster and vocal trainer said that all instruments ever invented where an attempt to imitate the versatility and sound of the human voice. I will suggest that some might not have been, but his point was to influence young choirboys to respect the music and their vocal contribution. But the human voice yet has overtones, if it didn't each singer singing the same note would have the same timbre. A tuning fork is designed (not always successfully) to have a single "pure" frequency with no overtones, perhaps we have a different use of the word "pure". The boy soprano is considered to have an artistically "pure" tone, but I'm using the word to mean a single frequency. > > some organ pipes, the lower pitched ones with simple sounds might be a close > second. > > Yes, there is a problem when the instrument is built lightly, harpsicord, harp, > lute, gamba all will have the problem of the instrument flexing as string tensinos > are changed. A good tuner anticipates some of that. Even organ pipes, no matter how low, carry some overtones. But then there are elephants - they apparently can make a sound so low that it isn't audible, only sensed through the vibration in the ground - guess they have no high overtones. The flexing of lightly built instruments is another question - I am referring to the absolute tuning, at the moment, of a pair of open strings. The old boys (and a contemporary friend, sadly now dead, was a piano tuner - as well as a fine pianist) would use the "beats", just as we do. But a perfection of tuning that elimates any "beat" takes some of the life out of the sound. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Fw: Nylgut
I forward this as it seems to have been sent just to me, but intended for the list. JWM - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Nylgut > Bruno, > > I have found that Nygut has a very close sound to that of gut but > it also has the durability of nylon. Gut strings wear out faster > and are more fragile. At this point, I am not ordering any new > nylon or gut strings for my lutes and Lombard mandolins. It > is all Nygut from now on (with the lower strings metal wound of course). > > Best regards, > Marion > > -Original Message- > From: Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Feb 16, 2005 11:10 PM > To: "'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'" , > Bruno Correia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Nylgut > > Bruno, > > I can't speak to the nuances of sound between the several materials - I'll > leave that to those who have tried them all. > > But physically nylgut is closer to gut than to nylon in the selection of the > guage. Oliver Wadsworth's StringCalc32 (which I downloaded as freeware, but > I don't remember where from) uses a density of 1.36 for gut, 1.30 for > Nylgut, and 1.12 for nylon. Putting that to an actual example - a 60cm. lute > with a desired tension of 35 Newtons, at a pitch of g' would use 0.39mm gut, > 0.40mm Nylgut, and 0.43 nylon. Taking it down an octave to g it would be > 0.78mm, 0.79mm, and 0.86mm (in the same sequence, and the same tension). > That isn't meant to be a practical example, merely an indication of the > pitch characteristics of the guages. You'll notice that the Nygut and gut > have similar differences, but the difference for nylon expands. Taking it to > the ridiculous (another octave down to G) it becomes 1.55, 1.59, 1.71. > > Of course this reflects only the pitch at the specific 35 Newton tension I > picked, not the tonal quality (or if you would use such thick strings at G). > > > Could anybody tell me how close to gut is nylgut? > > So the answer to this question seems to be that nylgut is far closer to gut > than it is to nylon in the choice of guage. But there are other issues that > I'm sure many list members will address. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Nylgut
Bruno, I can't speak to the nuances of sound between the several materials - I'll leave that to those who have tried them all. But physically nylgut is closer to gut than to nylon in the selection of the guage. Oliver Wadsworth's StringCalc32 (which I downloaded as freeware, but I don't remember where from) uses a density of 1.36 for gut, 1.30 for Nylgut, and 1.12 for nylon. Putting that to an actual example - a 60cm. lute with a desired tension of 35 Newtons, at a pitch of g' would use 0.39mm gut, 0.40mm Nylgut, and 0.43 nylon. Taking it down an octave to g it would be 0.78mm, 0.79mm, and 0.86mm (in the same sequence, and the same tension). That isn't meant to be a practical example, merely an indication of the pitch characteristics of the guages. You'll notice that the Nygut and gut have similar differences, but the difference for nylon expands. Taking it to the ridiculous (another octave down to G) it becomes 1.55, 1.59, 1.71. Of course this reflects only the pitch at the specific 35 Newton tension I picked, not the tonal quality (or if you would use such thick strings at G). > Could anybody tell me how close to gut is nylgut? So the answer to this question seems to be that nylgut is far closer to gut than it is to nylon in the choice of guage. But there are other issues that I'm sure many list members will address. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: horizontal spacing in tablature
Daniel and Alain, I confess my ignorance as to music printing and exchange software, and it had been a long day and a longer evening. As usual, when late at night, I tried to draw the general to the specific. You accurately "read between the lines" that my thrust was for data exchange. And that my long example of the attempts by some companies to monopolize the internet (considered a "free resource", although it is actually supported by the owners of the various main frames that do the routing in the network) was meant to speak to that issue. I'm glad to hear that there was an attempt at a universal data exchange format (NIF), and sad that it hasn't been used (although that might be an inadequacy on its part). And pleased to hear that there is another attempt (Music XML). The point is not that there should be free access to a programmer's product, that would be counter productive to innovation. It is that there should be a basic protocol agreed to by all involved for data exchange, rather than a proprietary protocol that limits it. If any programmer wants to provide bells and whistles within his work piece that is fine, and each user will have a preferred program for creating and printing music (or anything else in some other protocol). Speaking specifically of music the ideal would be a protocol that could transmit without regard to notation. The absolute notes themselves. Whether that was done as serial notes with individual time signatures, then the next line (with voids for open chords, etc) so that there would be ten or twenty series for a full score with a header to define them - or a parallel set of notes (again with the rests and the voids) is irrelevant. But that is what I would see as an ideal data exchange protocol. One that is converted from notation to notes for transmission, and back to notation for reception. Then the individual programs can treat them as they choose. Perhaps a modification, and expansion, of the MIDI protocol. The notation should be the result of the local program, the transmission should be the absolute notes. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
Yup, completely different wrist position. I can't speak to the lute, as I'm too new (but I'm not sure I could find a use for a thumb stop except for an unusual "open" chord, or sequence. But the painting you direct us to could also be a "soft thumb" as the player turns to his fingers on the first course. Proper technique (as I understand it) would have him with his thumb under the neck - but I spent fifty odd (no wisecracks please) years playing guitar with my thumb wrapped around the neck rather than under it. Perhaps he is thumb stopping, and perhaps just a lazy hand. But directly on thumb stopping, on the folk guitar which was my area (real traditional, not hippie folk), one used it for a transitional note to fill out a chord. (And when one was to young to make the full chord). Take a guitar G chord, first course/fret 3 - sixth course/fret 3 - fifth course/fret 2. A bit tough for young hands, or perhaps not needed. But the thumb stop for a full chord must also damp the fifth course. I don't know the full uses of the thumb stop, I haven't used it in years. But it seems to me it was usually matched with a thumb damping of the fifth course. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: left hand thumb to stop bass notes This is a lute-related question. But first: I asked a question recently on the Google classical guitar message board about the use of the left hand thumb to fret bass strings in 19th Century Russian guitar music. I got some very interesting responses but not a definitive answer. What puzzles me about this Russian guitar music is that sometimes the LH thumb frets the bass notes (clearly marked with a special sign) and sometimes the LH fingers fret the bass notes (indicated indirectly). Often it's not made clear whether it is thumb or fingers. Sometimes, in the same passage of bass notes, one bass note is to be played with the LH thumb and the very next with an LH finger. Playing with the LH thumb requires a completely different LH wrist position from 'normal' - like you are strangling the neck of the instrument. Before I started trying to play this music I just assumed that playing with LH thumb on some bass notes would allow the bass note to be sustained below the melody. But very often this just isn't the case. So I'm pondering the musical or technical purpose of LH thumb technique. Now I think I very dimly remember some discussion of LH thumb technique (for stopping bass notes) in some lute music - presumably early lute music: lutes without the extra bass strings that would preclude this technique. And then today I was killing some time in Cambridge at the Fitzwilliam and came across this painting by Titian: http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/pharos/collection_pages/italy_pages/109/TXT_SE-109.html (the first pic) Evidently it's an earlier version of a painting that is now in the Met in New York.(Google: Titian, Venus, Lute player, Cupid) Either version will do. The lutenist clearly has the thumb in the 'strangling the neck' position and nowhere near the 'normal' position that both guitarists and lutenists adopt today. (My wife was a bit baffled by my focus of interest in the lutenist's thumb in this painting but bought me the postcard nonetheless.) So: is there any evidence of using the thumb to fret bass notes in lute music? If so, do any lutenists today use this technique? And then, what is the musical or technical reason for it? - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com - virus-checked by McAfee - visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: horizontal spacing in tablature
Alain and Thomas, I promised to read Alain's long message, it is printed but I spent all of today driving to a speciality wood supplier to get what I needed for the proper lute I'm making (to replace the flat back I've learned on). And I've only scanned Thomas' message. There is a history, going back into the fifties and the earliest general purpose computers, of different protocols. There are many weaknesses in the TCP/IP standard that we use for the internet, it is rather elderly. But it is a standard. There are varying standards for photo reproduction in digital format, but they are shared. The point of a protocol is that it should be available to all programmers, even if it isn't perfect, in order to share formats among the users of different software. As I'm sure you know the early public use of the internet was provided by several competing services, each with their own internal format - and each requiring some effort to get out into the general internet. Compuserve, Genie, Prodigy (I was almost hired to develop the communications interface, I'd already done that for Citicorp's connection from their dedicated network to the internet, but the other guy won out). A few others, including the Delphi that was my first home computer internet connection (they, like the others, were an enclosed network - but they had the easiest access out to the internet). Compuserve was still using full numeric internet addresses for their clients in the early nineties (my murphsays.com, a few years ago, was 209.235.215.243 - but Compuserve required that within their system). OK, I'm really aiming somewhere. Indulge me with a couple more comments before coming back to the music. Two firms decided to monopolize the internet when it became a commodity. The internet came to life in the early nineties after Tim Berners-Lee designed the World Wide Web in 1989, setting up the combination of text addresses and HTML links (URLs and all that). The old "on line services" dropped back a bit and went "web side". But AOL came in, then M$ with MSN (Gates thought he could kill the internet with his own network - didn't work). But both of them made proprietary changes in standards of protocol to enhance their product (but also to deny access from the internet). Again it didn't work and we have moved away from "on line services" to ISPs - but AOL, and to some extent, MSN still carry breaks in the protocol standard. Note that if you aren't AOL you won't see the "embedded" photos in the email. Nice idea, embed them, but if you don't publish the standard then you can't get general acceptance - and general agreement is the goal of a communications protocol. OK, did it again. Now let's apply the lessons of thirty years of internet to music printing software. It is not a topic of great interest to governments, communications companies, or even the general public. What is needed is a protocol for printing staff or tabulation, and subsets that print Italian or French tabulation - or full score or normal staff or C staff or whatever. Finale and the rest should get together and agree on one - at the print end. Then they can concentrate their bells and whistles into the input and playback end. No real conversion is required, a simple program to turn each firm's output into a standard print format would suffice, and that should be written by a consortium and offered free. No loss to the software companies, the ease of use and switching should increase the sales base for all. Sounds idyllic, but not really. I can't count how many times I saw such things happen in my years in the software industry. In fact it is usually those who don't cooperate at the "transport level" who fail. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Music Stands
Concur your last (showing I still speak Navy talk), but my point is still valid. The ability to print more copies, even if they were in part form, allowed a larger ensemble. And I concur on the difficulty of working with a table book, but I do think that was the earlier version of the music - I've looked at vocal scores from before the Renaissance. All I can say is they must have had damned fine eyesight, a hell of a director, or didn't care who came in when. More likely the music part, or score, was a reminder of what they had already been taught. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: Music Stands > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > But I'm sure that I've seen in a scholarly account that point made. The > > ability for the musicians to have their own copy of the music allowed a > > larger group. I'll look for the reference. > > I know from personal experience that it is a good thing to put paper in the hands > of each singer in modern groups; but, when printing of music became technically > feasible during the 1500's, books were not cheap, not as they are now; it has been > the modern copy machine that makes that truely affordable. Many more renaissance > editions were published in parts than in score, the table book was a fairly late > concept, and (haveing experimented with them), not the easiest thing to play from > especially when one is myopic. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Double strings
Brlute, Vance and demery have almost said it all. Demery speaks of two things, the imperfections of the strings and the lighter string tension. They are two sides of the same question. Early strings didn't have the strength of modern ones (in part due to the imperfections - the weakest link in the chain), nor the ability to build mass by windings or loadings. So the lower strings had less volume projection than today. One solution was to double them with the octave, and the octaves resonate together bringing out the bass sound by having true string at the first overtone. There are competent authorities (that is a "weasel phrase" meaning that I don't want to "go to the books") who say that once the ability to put mass into the strings came the lutenists tuned the doubles together, as in the modern 12 string guitar. OK, that's done, now to the sound. Not only is no string perfect, no tuning is perfect either. Find me the lutenist, or the double strung harpist, who can tune all his strings absolutely to the same frequency (the process of tuning interupts the tuning) and I'll find you someone who has no time to play. But even if everything were perfect it still isn't - as the very overtone series isn't perfect. (OK guys, Pythagorean comma without detailing it). So the little variations can enhance the sound without handicapping the harmony. The only pure sound I know of (correct me if I'm wrong all you experts) is a tuning fork. And even that isn't perfectly without overtones. but the still metal does reduce the nodal vibrations to an almost imperceptible level. I tune my guitar and lute with my ear and a tuning fork - but I tune my 52 strings on the harp with an electronic tuner, then adjust - else I'd be days tuning it. Best, Jon BTW demery, my old traditional hammered dulcimer has four courses parallel tuned for the treble, and three for the bass, all wire strung. The object is to retain the slight "throb" of the almost perfect rather than the slower "throb" of the tones 5 cents off. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gut strings
Tim, Very nicely said, and I couldn't agree with you more in principle. There will always be details where there may be legitimate disagreement among us, but they shouldn't separate the members of the craft. And note that I use "craft" for the musician as well as the luthier. Music is within the musician, the expression of the music on an instrument is a combination of craft and art. I'm sure we've all heard musicians playing a piece with virtuoso "chops", then heard another do the same piece with less velocity yet more sense. You speak of the beauty of striking a single string (gut in your case) just for the sound. But I can do the same on my "flat back" with Nylgut - it is just a different sound. (And a slow progression of random notes on a good harp can imitate music to almost anyone, and in fact it is music). I believe it was yourself who advocated the David van Edwards course on lute making (wishing he'd looked at it before his first try). I bit the bullet and got the course, my mold is almost complete. But that comes to your point on "power tool craftsmen". I have a small shop with power tools (a former 5x5 walk in closet). A small lathe (on which I'll make my pegs), a table top band saw, drill press, belt/disk sander, scroll saw and router table. But 90% of the work on my instruments is done with hand tools in my armchair in the living room in front of the TV and with a bottle of beer. The sander is faster, but the hand chisel is both better and more fun. The home handyman should use the hand tools first to learn the process, then buy his power tools for convenience for rough work. I haven't heard Renbourne's Renaissance on steel guitar, but I love the Swingle Singers skat on Bach. That doesn't mean I find it equivalent to Bach on the original instruments, I find them both to be enjoyable in a different way. Sometimes my fingers dance, and sometimes they just plod through the notes. And that applies to lute, harp, ducimer and psaltery. But with over fifty years on guitar they always dance there. The difference is a certain confidence, and autopilot. If you can think the music without having to think of the notes then the fingers dance. But that will happen some days and not others. You are right, you can make scales and exercises into fun. Think if the scale as a song and play it as one. Gut chanterelles, impossible on my current instrument. The design was bad for a g' lute. The VL is too long (and the designer has shortened it on my advice). It is not for me, a beginner, to inform the historically informed. But I have to assume that nothink remains the same - and that gut strings were made differently then versus now. So it would seem that we attempt to approximate a sound that we have never heard, but have a good guess at from the materials and the surviving instruments. But it isn't proper to assume that the composers and musicians of those days wouldn't have liked to make a different sound if the facility was available to them. The new lute I'm making will have a VL that can handle a g' gut chanterelle, and I may try it. Until then I'll not comment on the sound. Your final paragraph is significant, the art historian has to be interested not only in the art but also the process. And I totally agree. And the artisan with no knowledge of his tools is not complete, and I submit that the musician is an artisan as well as an artist. Each instrument, even if nominally the same, is different. The shape and thicknesses of the soundboard will each militate to a different stringing. I can hit a tennis ball a lot further with a tennis racket than I can hit a baseball with that racket, and I can hit a baseball a lot further with a wooden bat than I can a tennis ball. It is all a matter of balancing the effects and vibrations. As to cooking, there I'm not in the loop. At my advanced age I'm more interested in texture than taste. But even in my youth I'd have known that a "good meal" was a matter of taste and taste buds. I grew up with an English mother, no sauces, but a bit of onion and mushroom in the meat loaf. Catsup is a hot sauce to me, and when Monique is back in the city during the week I enjoy my nightly hamburger - with some fresh red onion slices. I don't appreciate "good food", it is a waste on me. But that comes back to your point, and mine. That which is good to your ear, or to your taste buds, is yet a matter of taste and also breadth. I'm happy that my musical taste is wider than my gastronomic. (But I do love a good veal scallopini picata). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: horizontal spacing in tablature
Donatella and Alain, I have a small nit to pick, as a former programmer who is an Ivy League graduate - and hopefully not dull. The Ivy League isn't the genesis of programmers who don't know the application (Gates dropped out). Nor is it really the home of techies. It is more likely that the simple and amateurish program that works will come from the Ivy Leaguer who is following his interests. The complex program from the massed team is likely from a squad of techies hired by an entrepreneur. But I'm probably wrong, I'm out of date. And programming was far from my first occupation after graduation, there were no computers then. It was a late life occupation for survival. In my day a college degree wasn't like a trade school certificate, as it seems to be today. We had to know more to get into college than most need to graduate these days. OK, so I'm an unrepentant old snob and curmudgeon. But this is one area where I'm more attuned to Europe than to the US. The emphasis on almost universal college/university attendance in the US has merely made the secondary schools less responsible. Most current college graduates in the US would be hard pressed to match the education of a secondary school graduate in Europe or England (unless they have changed also). A fault in a system that has come to regard a college degree as a ticket to a job rather than a recognition of learning. And I mean learning rather than being taught. Learn how to learn, and to enjoy it, and to think critically about your reading, and you will learn for the rest of your life. Take your ticket and go, expecting admission to the world of the mind, and you will fall behind. Best, Jon (Former Investment Banker, Commercial Banker, Management Consultant, Ski Instructor, Furniture Mover, IBM Executive, Carpenter, Computer Programmer (at machine level), Folk Singer (before Dylan and Baez), Naval Officer (seagoing) and General All Around Sportsman - also Princeton A.B. 1957 in Psychology, which I never practiced as it was B.S.). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: new pieces for lute - Zamboni
I show my plebian side, as an ex-hockey player from the days before Zamboni I find a Zamboni to be a modern invention that saves the players having to come out and shovel the ice between periods. Wish we had one in my day. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Music Stands
In answer to Steve's question, somewhere in my bookshelves there is a book that states almost that. > Just me with my highly imperfect knowledge of music and history, but is it possible the use of music stands has something to do with the rise of ensembles larger than those that could comfortably gather around a table? > > Best, > Steve I'm not sure if it the one on the Craft of Composition (1450-1600), or somewhere else. I can't find in the index of Composers at Work (the main title of the above mentioned), but my vague memory says that the scores were separated with the advent of being able to print the separate copies so everyone didn't have to look at one. This, of course, applies more the the choral singing that was more commonly written out than the instrumental in the earlier days. Whether it was the stand, or the ability to produce extra copies at a reasonable price, I can't say (more likely the latter). But I'm sure that I've seen in a scholarly account that point made. The ability for the musicians to have their own copy of the music allowed a larger group. I'll look for the reference. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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Re: Gut strings
James, > It seems ironic for people who think gut has the best sound, to sacrifice > that sound on the chanterelle, where it probably has the most noticeable > effect... It almost makes more sense (unless you can afford to buy all gut strings) > to have nylgut or nylon (which can literally last years) on every course but > the 1st and 2nd; and to use gut on those strings, where the melody is most > often found. Just an idea... A good idea, but I think an impractical one for some lutes. And I confess that I've not tested gut yet for breaking pitch. With all due respect for the empiricals, I believe that gut and nylgut - having a very similar density - use the same tension for the pitch. But that gut has less "tensile strength" so can't maintain the same pitch without breaking as can nylgut. And I know, from experience, that nylon will give you about a half to full tone higher on the chanterelle without breaking. So the problem of the lute is the chanterelle (there is a 16th C. manuscript that tells of the tuning, tune the chanterelle until it breaks, then tune a bit lower - an expensive approach as one has to replace the broken chanterelle). The range of the lute is defined by the vibrating length, and the material of the chanterelle. But as it has a fixed length across the nut it is also defined by the lower courses. I'll give up for the night here, leaving the question open on purpose. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gut strings
Ed and Ed, I concur. I don't have the "time in grade" on the lute to speak of string life, but I do have other instruments. My 26 string double strung harp (52 strings in toto) was first tuned up about three years ago with nylon strings. I've had to change some strings one or more times (I keep a record of the when so as to know what is happening), and others retain pitch, and life, perfectly after the three years. I think Ed Durbrow got it right "when they go bad". A gigantic steel I-beam for heavy construction may have a few weak points, and a few strong points (but obviously the weak link is the failure point). The engineers design for the average strength, with a bit of over design for safety. Strings are rather thin things, It would be an ideal world in which the string were perfectly consistant - whether gut or synthetic - from string to string, or more importantly within the length of the string segment. A string can be false "out of the box" if there is a difference of density within the length. Face it, it's going to happen. Your job is to recognize it and change the string. It is not the fault of the string maker, or supplier, unless you consistantly get bad strings from them. Even diamonds have flaws. Ed D., intonation problems at the several frets? Can happen. One or more weak points in the string can allow a bit more stretch at those points, which automatically changes the mass of that segment, and when you fret you take out some part of the overall mass of the string. Theoretically a string with a number of weak points could stretch over time to make it a bit flat at the middle frets and a bit sharp at the higher ones. But that would be a "perfect storm" of a bad string. No string is perfect as made, any more than any steel sword has perfection through its length. The classic American poem (19th C. I think, can't remember the author) about the One Horse Shay that was made perfectly. Every piece of wood was perfectly matched, so no part could wear out before another. It went on forever, until all the perfect parts failed at once and it fell into a pile of dust. Strings under tension will show their weak points sooner or later. For a musician it is better that they show it sooner and break early, or go "sour" early - then one can change it immediately. It's that sneaky string that seems ok, but not quite, that causes a problem. And I confess this comes from my harp experience rather than the lute. Changing 52 strings costs a bit of money. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "uqcmeach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 5:49 AM Subject: Re: Gut strings > >How often should one change synthetic strings? > > When they go bad. > > I was having the strangest intonation problems with a Nylgut octave > the other day. Certain frets would be in tune and others would be way > out. Usually out of tune-ness progresses up the fretboard. How long > are you people able to use Nylguts before they go false? I forget how > long that one was on there. > > cheers, > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Gut strings
Caroline, and Timothy, I wonder at the concern for strings from rank beginners (as I am also). The lute is a subtle instrument, and I'm learning that in my play. But I have a very good ear for tone and pitch and have had to use nylon fishing line for my chanterelle to tune it up to g' without breaking as the lute is a bit long for that tuning (63.5). Since then I've found a nylon guage of musical string that holds the pitch. The rest of my instrument is nylgut. But here is my point, you are learning to play, and what you play should approximate the sound of the lute as it was (which no one, even on this list, is quite sure of - unless they are either immortal or attuned to the music sent out into space 400 years ago - at very low volume). Any instrument needs two things, the instrument itself and the player. I have an expensive penny whistle I bought a few years ago, but I can't match the sound of a real player using a $5 store bought whistle. It is a compromise. A bad instrument will turn you off, but one that is too good will not help you, it will just cost you money. My "flat back", denigrated by some here, has the right string spacing and a sound that is "lutelike". So I'm now in the process of making a real one, but only as I've "found the joy of the lute". The difference between nylon, nylgut and gut is a matter of detail. Until you get the "attack" on the strings you probably won't notice it. Learn your tool before you spend too much on the details. Drummers often practice on a "dead" piece of board. And for the purists, this is no suggestion that there isn't a difference, even for the beginner. It is just a matter of priorities. Where do you spend the money and time? To me it is learning the music. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: RE: Gutsy stories
Thomas, For once I was too brief - I thought I'd mentioned the surviving fixed pitch instruments, but I see I didn't (oops, that was what I meant by "comparative working"). As to the "carry" I'd say it was based less on hearing habits than actual auditory phenomena. We know that low frequencies carry, in the ocean they carry thousands of miles in whale songs and elephants use low frequencies that we can't hear to communicate over distance. In fact those low frequencies have more power. But I did use quote signs, the higher frequencies are more audible where there is background noise - as there is likely to have been. But I was speaking of a lower tension, not a lower pitch. Given the guage (and that was a given in the original thread as it spoke of the size of the holes in the bridge) a lower pitch requires a lower tension. And there is a range of tension for all strings that is between the breaking pitch and the lack of sound that has the most power. That said I realize that it is irrelevant to the size of the bridge holes in old instruments, I fell into a standard trap of my own making. The pitch is yet defined by the vibrating length and the tension, and the breaking pitch is the same no matter the guage (within reason). I quit for the night with this thought - perhaps the string holes in the bridges of old instruments, long unused, aren't the same as they were originally. Even seasoned wood will reabsorb moisture if not protected by a varnish, and I doubt that they varnished the inside of the bridge holes. So perhaps the holes have shrunk as the wood swelled over time. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Gutsy stories
Dear Martin, Like you I don't knot the strings at the peg, but in 55 years of stringing guitars I've found that "back looping" the string around the peg puts a bit of friction on it without having a full tension crossover that can cut a string. By "back looping" I mean bringing the bitter end (seaman's term, the loose end) in the reverse direction of the "wind" and making a few turns around the standing end where it comes out of the peg, Holding that tight while winding on the first couple of turns on the peg makes a friction that isn't directly in the pull of the string tension (as a knot would be). Then once one has the string up to pitch one can clip the loose end close. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: RE: Gutsy stories
Thomas, As David said, high tension = thick string, given a pitch. But I yet question the pitches involved. We are all aware of the rather large differences between the a's in different systems - but somehow we have an actual frequency for them. I'm sure there is good evidence for the actual pitch frequencies, perhaps comparative working of the instruments that can be "pitch evaluated". But they didn't have "sillyscopes" to measure the absolute frequency back then, although they could hear the relative differences. Perhaps the whole musical world was pitched lower in the old days. David's point is valid, the guage of the string doesn't influence the "breaking pitch" (which he details) - the string material does that. So if the holes are smaller it just means that they were using lower tension for the same pitch (on the assumption that they had no space age materials). The lower tension adds some overtones (within limits), but reduces the "carry" of the sound. There are a lot of trade offs, but I suspect that the overall perception of pitch was different. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 3:26 AM Subject: Antwort: RE: Gutsy stories > > > > > > Dear Rob > > the implication of smaller holes in the bridge would be either the old > lutenists used a higher tension than we do or the strings they used would > be made of a different material. I've read somewhere in an article guessing > the gut strings would be different from our modern times gut strings > (assuming environmental influences). I think this is somehow plausible but > still guesswork. Or is there evidence for this? > So I would think they used higher tension. > > Best wishes > Thomas > > > > > > "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 30.01.2005 09:20:54 > > An:"'Lute net'" > Kopie: > > Thema: RE: Gutsy stories > > A luthier once told me that many of the original bridge string holes are > too > small for the diameters we choose for 'modern' gut. Is this true, and if so > what are the implications? > > Also, many luthiers drill bridge holes on their instruments for wound > synthetic strings, and when you decide to experiment with gut, you too will > find that the holes are too narrow. On two occasions I have had to have the > holes widened. > > There is some connection between these two paragraphs... > > Rob > > > > -Original Message- > From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 29 January 2005 20:20 > To: Michael Thames; LGS-Europe; Lute net; Edward Martin > Subject: Re: Gutsy stories > > No argument here. The extended bass length is precisely for that > purpose...with the longer basses, the required strings will necessarily > > require a smaller string diameter. I am uncertain if it gives more volume > and sustain, but for sure, a better clarity of pitch and sound. These > instruments were designed for gut strings. > > ed > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and > may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the > sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use > it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. > > > > > > >
Re: Gutsy stories
Rob, Widening a hole is easy, narrowing it is tough. I note that your email domain is rmguitar. If your background is guitar you should realize that the strings pass over a saddle on your guitar, but go directly from the bridge hole on your lute. The pull on the lute string (with the normal knot) is up, the loop of the string makes its own "mini saddle" (just went through this in a conversion). So be careful about widening the hole in the bridge, you don't want to change the height over the frets. I recommend a fine drill bit worked by hand, and pressed toward the bottom and sides of the string hole (assuming the normal knot). Or if you can fit a section of old wound string through it use the string itself to widen it. Be careful, but if you work slowly you won't hurt it. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Lute net'" Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:20 AM Subject: RE: Gutsy stories > A luthier once told me that many of the original bridge string holes are too > small for the diameters we choose for 'modern' gut. Is this true, and if so > what are the implications? > > Also, many luthiers drill bridge holes on their instruments for wound > synthetic strings, and when you decide to experiment with gut, you too will > find that the holes are too narrow. On two occasions I have had to have the > holes widened. > > There is some connection between these two paragraphs... > > Rob > > > > -Original Message- > From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 29 January 2005 20:20 > To: Michael Thames; LGS-Europe; Lute net; Edward Martin > Subject: Re: Gutsy stories > > No argument here. The extended bass length is precisely for that > purpose...with the longer basses, the required strings will necessarily > require a smaller string diameter. I am uncertain if it gives more volume > and sustain, but for sure, a better clarity of pitch and sound. These > instruments were designed for gut strings. > > ed > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Bob Jordan
Alain, I agree with you entirely, although I always have to go back to my music dictionary to look up continuo (abbeviation for basso continuo, a notation of numbers for the intervals above the bass for accompanyment). It may not be of help to your project but may I suggest a book that shows a great deal of the process. "Composers at Work, the Craft of Musical Composition 1450 - 1600", by Jesse Ann Owens. Lots of facsimiles of original notations, and their translation into modern notation. I think I paid about $10 US for it, if you are interested I'll look up the web site of the seller, but it is Oxford University Press as publisher. Coming back to the continuo, in the sense of figured bass, I am being quite honest with you when I say that I can play continuo on the guitar without a "fake book" (yeah, sometimes it takes a few passes). And I guess the chording "fake book" would be the modern equivalent of the figured bass. But even so the setting and interpretation can be different. I'll use a trivial example, as it is a familiar modern "traditional piece". The song "Scarborough Fair" by Simon and Garfunkel is a variation on a traditional song - whether they wrote the variation or picked it up from someone else I don't know. The traditional is in a major key (and not as interesting, or as saccharine). Their varation on the melody can be played in the relative minor (Aolian) quite reasonably, but it sounds a lot better in the Dorian. Were one to cast the old melody in C major their melody would play off it in either Aolian or Dorian, and either would stay on the "white keys". And that is where you are right, the "continuo by ear" may be satisfactory (and usually perfect if the melody is simple) but not always best. And there I see a problem for your proposed software. My harp ensemble sometimes uses music from "fake books", and the chording is often less than optimal for the sense of the piece. But then I may be misreading your intent - as you do speak of the original continuo figures. As you say, the number of interpretations is staggering. More power to you, and I'd love to see your progress. Best, Jon > Jon, > Thank you for your comments - I agree with them on the whole. Your > remark on the C# in particular is interesting. Still, even if the > transcription was done for keyboard or a more modern harp than Carolan > would have used, the arrangements are interesting for what they are: > late 18th century Irish harmonizations of tunes familiar to those people > at that time. I am sure that there is much more to the engraved music > than I can actually personally dig with my meager musical education, > hence my interest in sharing them with potentially more knowledgeable > people. > I should say that I am primarily concerned in this work as a software > developer who is trying to build tools to make it easier for people to > make their own arrangements, rather than provide final documents. From > that point of view, the applications are rather wider than just a > transcription of a couple of pieces of Irish music. Anyone dealing with > music from the 17th century all the way to the classical era will know > what I am talking about. Even when you are given the continuo figures, > the range of possible interpretations is truly staggering. One way of > resolving that problem is to actually use an actual realization from the > period, even though it may be for another instrument. In that type of > situations, I see three phases of work: the plain transcription of the > realised continuo, a quick and dirty adaptation for your instrument done > by the software, and the final and most important phase, the reworking > of that adaptation done by the player on the instrument to fit the > natural qualities of his instrument and own personal skills. My goal is > to minimize the time and effort needed for the first 2 phases, so that > musicians can go as directly as possible to the third phase. > Of course, real continuo players don't need software - or pen and paper > - to play their part, or at least that is what they will claim if they > are not very honest with you. .. But there is much to be learned from > that exercise anyways. Even if O'Carolan never played a gig with a luter. > Alain > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Carbon fiber strings
Craig, > Martin, > PVF stands for "polyvinyl fluoride". I seem to remember that it is actually "polyvinyl carbon floride" but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused myself, but let me quote from Mimmo Peruffo's U.S Patent for "Nylgut" (not named as such in the patent, it is Polybutylene Terephthalat as used for musical strings). " Recently PVF (Polyvinyldenchoride), also improperly known as "carbon", has also been used to make musical strings". I haven't the vaguest idea what denchoride is, perhaps a form of flouride, but I have to assume the word is correct as it is in the patent as issued. Organic chemistry was too complicated for me fifty years ago when there were a lot less compounds. But I believe all the thermoplastics are compounds of hydrocarbons, so they all have carbon. Perhaps the denchoride is a "salt" of carbon and flouride (my old chemistry book is a bit short on that stuff, but it does show how to make the silicon floride "salt"). Whatever, some call 'em "carbon" and some call 'em PVF - but they seem to be the same thing. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bob Jordan
Alain, Thank you, although I'll have to drop the 10 course back to the 7 course. But I have the harp to try the "originals". And I'm sure you are aware that there is no original of O'Carolan - he was blind and didn't write down any of his music. I've seen a number of versions of the same song, as transcribed by a listener - but all have that flavor of the composer - and I'm sure he never played any of them exactly the same way twice. Not only that, but the staff transcription is a variation, in that one could play the F natural in a G tuning on his wire strung harp by a very skilled finger, the hooks weren't used yet. A modern harpist (whose name I've forgotten) does that. But the C # in the 7th measure would be difficult (except on a double strung, which existed but wasn't in O'Carolan's hands). On the whole, the melody and the open chords of the bass would appear to be the song, the rest being an interpretation by the transcriber. Printed them all, looking forward to playing them. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Alain Veylit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Bob Jordan > Tired of the political banter? Eager to dust off the old lute from its > case? In love with the noble Celtic music of Ireland? Unwilling to do > your own transcriptions from barely legible old documents in grand old > fart staff notation? If the answer to all the above is yes, you may be > interested in checking out my absolutely magnificent transcription of > O'Carolan's tune "Bob Jordan" for baroque lute right off the ELf page at > http://www.cbsr.ucr.edu//wlkfiles/ELF.html > Those of you with sufficient attention span and the latest Adobe Acrobat > Reader will note that the pdf includes the original 18th century > publication, because not unlike sex and/or politics, musical adaptations > are very much a matter of personal taste and you should have the God > given right to redo it the way you please, 'cause this is a democracy > after all. > Note: All transcriptions for lute are in freedom tablature, and yes, > free of charge! (Guiness not included) > Alain > PS: Mary do you fancy me also works fairly well in G tuning, but Bob > Jordan looks better in Baroque garb. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: sarmaticae antiquae coactae
> I suppose some will want to check the sarmaticae with a Geiger counter. > RT No, geiger counters only check the random, but very regular, emissions from radioactively decaying material. One would hope that the wonderful rhythms of music won't decay in our lifetimes. Radioactive decay is an aspect of the increase of entropy that is endemic to the universe, the active decays toward the inactive. It is speculated that the total entropy in the universe is tending to a constant - but with local resistance (such as the ordering of a local society by mankind). To that concept I contratulate the lutenist. As modern music approaches the disorganization of an entropic state (the rock group that knows three chords, but keeps it simple by only playing two) the lutenists hold the line against the trend, and maintain that resistance, by playing music. Let us be happy to be a major force reacting against the massive trend of the universe. (Wow, I almost sound new age, but that is actually real physics, with a bit of tongue in cheek). We don't need no stinking metronomes! But I still have trouble with 5/4. Easier to play it from the sound than the count. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Not getting it
Oh Caroline, how can you deny the title. I love it. But in order to bestow it I need more facts. A dowager is an inhertor, so the widow of the Emporor is the Dowager Empress. Although that is unusual, as another line normally takes over and denies the heiress. Now then, dowager duchess would work - as that is a continuing title, the son of the late Duke is the Duke, his wife is the Duchess, and his mother the Dowager Duchess. But I'll not be strict with you as to the legitimacy of your title. It is not required that it be correct, just enjoyable. But to me it does imply that you gained the title by the death of the Emporor, and I'm sure you were bestowed by longevity and activity. It is appropriate that we use Royal rather than republican titles on a list devoted to the Renaissance lute, and its ancestors and heirs. And as long as we are doing so I can thing of a way to justify your chosen title. In the Empire of the lute, long gone, there has become a revival of Royalists who love the music. So the Empire is dead, and those of us who preserve it are the heirs of the music. Therefore as senior lady among the pretenders to the throne, you are the Dowager Empress. Best, Jon > My title is a SPOOF, Roman. A joke. A running gag. > > And unlike others who got titles by inheriting them, I EARNED my status. Though I chose my title myself, the LSA Board was pleased to confirm it. > > As for people having the freedom to talk about whatever they want, sure, go down to the park and stand on a soapbox. This forum exists for discussing the lute. > > Caroline > *** > Caroline Usher > Dowager Empress, Lute Society of America > Please refer all queries to the current President, Dick Hoban [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
Arto, and all, I think we have been conned, as I mentioned in my message to Gernot. And I am embarrassed that I answered. But I confess to playing a number of instruments and being open to others. What the hell is a "LONG VIBRATING TONE". To my mind it is a very large bell in a steeple! Not exactly a musical instrument for melody and harmony. But a good way to set a pitch for the tone deaf. As I understand it, as a new lutenist, one would like the bass tones to last for a measure in order to maintain the polyphony in contrapuntal arrangements. But one doesn't want the bass to overpower the treble, they should be balanced as on performs the divisions on the upper (and conversely the lower) line. I open myself to correction from you all, the experienced lutenists. But I hope those of you who at an earlier stage in my learning thought I knew nothing will accept the question as well intended. BTW, for those who deplored my "flat back" I'm about a week from finishing the mold for the traditional Renaissance lute I'm making. Then I figure about three months to finish it to the point of stringing - but then there are the adjustments. I commend Music Makers for that cheap "flat back" kit - without it I would never have come to this magnificent instrument as the "entry price" would have been too high. When I finish my new lute I'll use the "flat back" to introduce others to the lute, it should be revived. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings > > Dear lutenists > > > i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass" (whatever that means),=20 > > what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer > > a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. > > I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago > the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very > long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long > vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand > piano played with pedal down... > > Gut and its modern imitators behave much better. > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
I answer Gernot, and write to all. Two posters? Conveniently as the "non lute" topic was so long I reset my email list to "subject" so I could read the entire thread in sequence. Wow, there next to each other were exact duplicate messages from Rosinfiorino and Carlos Flores. The last time I connected those names was in long messages on some kind of "internal imperative", or some such thing resembling the "Force" from Star Wars. I believe, I believe in that force now. Else how could both Rosin and Carlos have written the exact same words? I'm not much in favor of blocking on a list - I like being told I'm wrong so I can prove I'm right or change my opinion. But I've got to block at least one of these doppelgangers. Best, Jon > Hi, > you wouldn't believe how low my lutenet traffic is since I recently blocked two > posters :-) > Email filters are wonderful > Best wishes > g > > >rosinfiorini wrote: > > > >Jon wrote: > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: non-lute messages
If I might may I make a suggestion. Detailed political messages on this list, or any other devoted to music (or woodworking, or whatever) are not only inappropriate but also clutter the mail. But everytime this comes up someone objects that they are losing their "freedom of expression". This is an international forum, and some may want to express views on topics of current interest among those they speak with from differing backgrounds. How about each time you get tempted to write "off topic" you just send a brief message to the list saying "I think about , anyone who wants to discuss it please email me directly". A compromise, we'll never avoid the off topic messages - better to control them by guiding them off list. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
I can agree with the beauty of the bass, and I'm not sure how R. got the impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and I'm not sure what that means). One can go as long as one wants on fretted courses, just make a longer neck and more frets - and if your arm is too short get an assistant to do the fretting . My point was that any instrument with a fixed vibrating length has a limit on the range of pitches, and therefore courses, using string guages within reason. A bass too tight has a tight sound, a bass too loose has no sound. I have listened to the singing of strings a half inch thick and sixty feet long, strummed by the wind. The true logic is that each "guage" has a length and tension combination that will produce a musical sound. And that musical sound is affected by where in the range the combination is. At the lower end of the range the sound will be fuller, with more overtones, and at the upper end a bit brighter. Theer is a music in many things, the "thrumming" of the standing rigging in a high wind playing off the almost random percussion of the loose halyards snapping against the mast makes music to a sailor's ears. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings > Jon wrote: > >But it is only important on a lute as > > to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for many > > coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without the > > extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos). > > for many lute players the extension of the vibrating lenght (VL) is not a simple dry, technical means to provide certain pitch for certain gauge, etc. It is the means to have a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. You can't go too long on fretted courses but why not on the basses--this is the true logic behind very long basses. Longer vibrating bass is sweet and dull, drum-like, quickly dying bass string of short lenght is better for "marimba" loving sound(lol) > > > > > > Craig, > > > > Arto has given you a number I can't quarrel with for the carbon fibers for > > mass, but tensile strength is another matter (and for those who have > > corrected me for using that term, it may be inexact as one is dealing with > > stress, but it is a usable term). > > > > The mass is a cubic measure (as Arto gave it), after all there can be no > > mass in a pure plane any more than there is length in a point or width in a > > line. In our three dimensional world one needs all three dimensions to make > > up mass (I won't speak for the "Flatlanders", nor for extradimensional > > beings - just for our particular space). > > > > But the strength, in the sense of breaking stress, is a square measure. > > Within limits the length makes no difference, only the stress resistance of > > the material (in bridge cables one has to add the weight of the cable itself > > to the load it bears, and other such confusions - and with strings one has > > to consider the imperfections that multiply the longer the string). > > > > Tensile strength is of interest to lutenists (and other string players) > > because of the question of "breaking pitch", which tends to be the same no > > matter the gauge of the string for a given length. The string of greater > > mass needs a higher tension (stress) to reach a pitch, but it also has > > greater strength due to the thicker cross section. It is not intuitive that > > the "breaking pitch" should always be the same for a given material - the > > relationships might not be linear - but it seems they are. Experimentation > > seems to have shown that. > > > > I hope to soon be able to have some empirical data on the topic, but the > > strings I've got tensile strength figures for seem to react as predicted for > > breaking pitch when put to the test. But it is only important on a lute as > > to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for many > > coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without the > > extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos). > > > > Best, Jon > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Craig Robert Pierpont" > > To: "Lute List" > > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:27 PM > > Subject: Carbon fiber strings > > > > > > > Does anybody have the mass and tensile strength values for carbon fiber > > strings. (Saverez strings claim not to be carbon fiber so those numbers > > won't necessarily work.) > > > Thanks, > > > Craig > > > > > > __ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Faites un
Re: [SFV] Message from Petr Tuma
Tony, >"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: connect to ms.stapro.cz[62.77.77.9]: server dropped >connection without sending the initial SMTP greeting" > Otherwise, does anyone else underatnd this error message? SMTP is the initials of Simple Mail Transport Protocol. The internet runs on a thing called TCP/IP (Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol). Notice that they all use the word Protocol ( I think the inventors has diplomatic aspirations ). Despite the word "simple" in SMTP there is a rather formal "handshake" involved in passing a message ( I used to design these systems for dedicated applications, before the general use of the internet). OK, before the World Wide Web (as designed by Tim Berners-Lee) internet addresses were 4 sets of up to three numbers (as in the 62.77.77.9 above). A few years ago mine was 209.235.215.243. So that is a guess as to the numbers in the error message (but I don't like the guess, as that would have had to be a very early address as the numbers are two digit). The WWW set up "nodes" which translate the verbal address to the numbers in the protocol - and as the internet is routed through these several nodes (many now), that always provides a routing. Sort of like telling your modern phone "call mother" and it comes up with the number. Sounds as if his ISP (Internet Service Provider) is out of business. The "server" is the physical machine on which his ISP is (or was) resident. (The server dropped the connection - which means the server was there - without the SMTP greeting - which means the server didn't feel a need to confirm the connection to the ISP). A connection is dropped when there is no "handshake", but the handshake can be at different levels. SMTP is the "sending" protocol for the sender, and if there is no receiver for the "sent address" then the server won't respond, but this isn't your friend dropping out, it is the higher level in that the server doesn't even recognize any email. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Carbon fiber strings
Craig, Arto has given you a number I can't quarrel with for the carbon fibers for mass, but tensile strength is another matter (and for those who have corrected me for using that term, it may be inexact as one is dealing with stress, but it is a usable term). The mass is a cubic measure (as Arto gave it), after all there can be no mass in a pure plane any more than there is length in a point or width in a line. In our three dimensional world one needs all three dimensions to make up mass (I won't speak for the "Flatlanders", nor for extradimensional beings - just for our particular space). But the strength, in the sense of breaking stress, is a square measure. Within limits the length makes no difference, only the stress resistance of the material (in bridge cables one has to add the weight of the cable itself to the load it bears, and other such confusions - and with strings one has to consider the imperfections that multiply the longer the string). Tensile strength is of interest to lutenists (and other string players) because of the question of "breaking pitch", which tends to be the same no matter the gauge of the string for a given length. The string of greater mass needs a higher tension (stress) to reach a pitch, but it also has greater strength due to the thicker cross section. It is not intuitive that the "breaking pitch" should always be the same for a given material - the relationships might not be linear - but it seems they are. Experimentation seems to have shown that. I hope to soon be able to have some empirical data on the topic, but the strings I've got tensile strength figures for seem to react as predicted for breaking pitch when put to the test. But it is only important on a lute as to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for many coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without the extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos). Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Craig Robert Pierpont" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute List" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: Carbon fiber strings > Does anybody have the mass and tensile strength values for carbon fiber strings. (Saverez strings claim not to be carbon fiber so those numbers won't necessarily work.) > Thanks, >Craig > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: shipping a lute
Among other occupations I was once a furniture mover. I'd say to stablize the lute within its case (you need'nt wrap it, just enough padding to keep it from moving within the case). Then make a crate (as Gary says), but make it of wood. Get scrap wood (discarded shipping pallets are good) and bang together a sort of an "orange crate" - it doesn't have to be solid, just enoungh to protect the case. As to the lining of the crate, a few judiciously placed pieces of "seat cushion" foam cut to shape will stabilize the case within the crate without having to make the crate too carefully. A hammer and nails, a saw and scrap wood, and a bunch of "sponge rubber" (and glue it in place). No detailed plans necessary. A "throwaway crate". Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Introduce your lutes to the list!
Taco, I read Alfonso's message differently than you did. And seeing your message I can understand why. Alfonso didn't make it clear as to whether he was asking for list members to evaluate their lutes (as you read it), or to introduce themselves by introducing which of the various instrument types and music that fall into the category of lute which they play (which is the way I read it). I agree that the list shouldn't be a place that defines which luthier makes the best, or to spout off about a problem with a lute maker. As you say, that should be done off list by asking the specific experience of those who have dealt with them. But to inventory by type could be a way to direct questions, and to express interests. I have no opinion on the topic, aside from the suggestions above. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: weiss for ukulele
Robert, and all, Point made, sometimes strange things can work. I always loved the Swingle Singers doing Bach's Brandenburgs. And I think Bach would rather have liked it himself. A slightly jazzed scat version that maintained the structure of the pieces (if not the stricter aspects). But I don't think Handel would have enjoyed the perversion of the Halleliuah Chorus done by a bunch of drunken Tigertones cadging drinks at Harvard in the fifties. The words weren't exactly sacred (How's your mother, how's your father, how's your sister Sue - and while I'm asking, 'bout your family, how's your old Wazoo), and the repetitions were ad nauseum - but as the parts weren't strictly defined the members could drop out to drink at leisure while the rest maintained the continuum of Groundhog Day music. There is a value to playing with the play. I'll take a segment of a piece (or the entirety of a song) and play it on the whistle, then the bowed psaltery, then the psaltery, then the harp (I'm not yet to improvising the lute into the sequence). Within the orchestration of the grandest symphony there is yet a theme, and a counter theme, that can be extracted and make a chamber piece out of it. I repeat my feeling that music is a sense of the song, and the setting. And if the setting is smaller than the original the result can yet have the sense of both the setting and the song. Seager and I were playing at the same time, our politics weren't the same. But the man had a wonderful feeling for making his banjo do anything. Best, Jon > As strange as Rites of Spring on guitar might sound, a few weeks back I heard a recording from the 60s of Pete Seager doing the slow movement of Beethhoven's 7th on banjo, and it was quite intriguing! From a recording apparently entitled "just fooling around." This was heard on WFMT in Chicago. Robert To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Nylgut
Oh my, Daniel, I love it. A brief lesson in thermoplastics, a description of "carbon" strings which I knew little of, and of the PBT (nylgut), as well as the contrast to gut. Thanks for the posting. Best, Jon > For the general edification, I have posted Mimmo's US patent for the > manufacture of musical instrument strings on the "Downloads" page of the > LSA website: > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html#patent To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
