Re: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/05/02 Tue PM 11:58:07 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? I kind of like microwave ovens too. And I doubt I could live happily without my DVD player now (once my VCR, which I still have, of course). I like my compound mitre saw and air nailer... William Robb Must remember not to get on your bad side - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Of course my impact wrench is 35 years old, so maybe that doesn't count. Never mind:-). That's ok cause you used it on a 51 year old car! Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Air nailers are awesome. I rotated the tires on my 55 Chevy last weekend, and was thinking how I wouldn't do it without an impact wrench. Of course my impact wrench is 35 years old, so maybe that doesn't count. Never mind:-). Paul On May 2, 2006, at 7:58 PM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? I kind of like microwave ovens too. And I doubt I could live happily without my DVD player now (once my VCR, which I still have, of course). I like my compound mitre saw and air nailer... William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
I'm not as old as I thought, I learned to program on a CRT, (My last assignment, for extra credit, had to be submitted on *Hollerith Cards, ages more advanced than paper tape.* Tom C wrote: Just need to ask... how many indoor bathrooms were in the world when you were born? Inquiring minds want to know! We saved our programs in high school on paper tape and entered them at the teletype. DEC10. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:06:07 -0400 Hey, Shel, would you copy my 8 floppies to DVD for me? And I've got a half dozen 1/4 512mb SCSI tape cartridges that I would like to have copied too... Oh, yes, about 150 3.5 inch floppies as well; my floppy drive died last year and I do not feel it is worth $5 to replace it although I may get around to pulling it out of the machine sometime real soon now. PS: Anybody got a paper tape reader I could borrow, and a PDP7 to hook it up to? Anyone else out there realize that in 30 years we have gone from teletype machines and paper type to 30 LCD's and 500gb hard drives on personal computers? When I was born there was one one* electronic computer in the world. * Just googled it, apparently I was wrong, there were two working non-programmable EC's, and one programmable EC under construction. Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Shel Belinkoff wrote: A more powerful machine doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
It might not be your age but the budget of the varying school districts at the time. At my first real corporate mainframe programmer job in 1981, my first few programs were written out on coding forms and keypunched. That made me feel important! :-) When it became too much of a pain in the neck to wait for keypunched modifications I started using the CRT and a line-editor. I could see the entire program line after line, but needed to enter a command to pick the line of code I wanted to modify or delete, or to add a new line. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 16:36:39 -0400 I'm not as old as I thought, I learned to program on a CRT, (My last assignment, for extra credit, had to be submitted on *Hollerith Cards, ages more advanced than paper tape.* Tom C wrote: Just need to ask... how many indoor bathrooms were in the world when you were born? Inquiring minds want to know! We saved our programs in high school on paper tape and entered them at the teletype. DEC10. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:06:07 -0400 Hey, Shel, would you copy my 8 floppies to DVD for me? And I've got a half dozen 1/4 512mb SCSI tape cartridges that I would like to have copied too... Oh, yes, about 150 3.5 inch floppies as well; my floppy drive died last year and I do not feel it is worth $5 to replace it although I may get around to pulling it out of the machine sometime real soon now. PS: Anybody got a paper tape reader I could borrow, and a PDP7 to hook it up to? Anyone else out there realize that in 30 years we have gone from teletype machines and paper type to 30 LCD's and 500gb hard drives on personal computers? When I was born there was one one* electronic computer in the world. * Just googled it, apparently I was wrong, there were two working non-programmable EC's, and one programmable EC under construction. Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Shel Belinkoff wrote: A more powerful machine doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try. -- When you're worried or in doubt,Run in circles, (scream and shout).
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
William Robb wrote: For the great unwashed, it is also a matter of complacency and lack of interest. I predict that an entire generation of pictures will mostly be lost because the computer is not archiving friendly. For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try. Malcolm
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, William Robb wrote: I predict that an entire generation of pictures will mostly be lost because the computer is not archiving friendly. I'll predict the same thing because most writable CD/DVD media is cheap crap. Regardless of the future readability of physical and data formats, I don't think many of those discs would survive 20 years in a box in the attic. - Dave
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
A more powerful machine doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 1, 2006, at 11:29 AM, John Forbes wrote: Using a computer and programming a computer are two very different things, as you well know. Writing scripts is programming, and to somebody who has never done it, it represents a major obstacle. Who said anything about writing a script? You don't need to write a script. The backup utilities I use (Econ Technologies' ChronoSync and Apple's Backup, at present) do not require any scripting at all. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Boris Liberman Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Godfrey, you're being slightly wrong here... Consider this. Find a task which you cannot possibly do. For me it would be fixing my own car on my own. Find another person who can do it easily. For me it would be one of my best friends who is car mechanic by profession. Consider now that him and someone else is talking about fixing cars and you're watching... Shall I go on? Like Tim keeps saying in his signature (with slight modification of my own) - Never underestimate the power of stupidity. In my line of work I've found that great many people that say that they know how to operate a (Windows based) computer cannot understand the concept of unzipping a zip file content to a given directory. They are still very competent otherwise. For the great unwashed, it is also a matter of complacency and lack of interest. I predict that an entire generation of pictures will mostly be lost because the computer is not archiving friendly. William Robb Just like the entire generation that was lost because people stuffed them under the bed in shoe boxes. -Adam
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
A more powerful doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hey, Shel, would you copy my 8 floppies to DVD for me? And I've got a half dozen 1/4 512mb SCSI tape cartridges that I would like to have copied too... Oh, yes, about 150 3.5 inch floppies as well; my floppy drive died last year and I do not feel it is worth $5 to replace it although I may get around to pulling it out of the machine sometime real soon now. PS: Anybody got a paper tape reader I could borrow, and a PDP7 to hook it up to? Anyone else out there realize that in 30 years we have gone from teletype machines and paper type to 30 LCD's and 500gb hard drives on personal computers? When I was born there was one one* electronic computer in the world. * Just googled it, apparently I was wrong, there were two working non-programmable EC's, and one programmable EC under construction. Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Shel Belinkoff wrote: A more powerful machine doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Just need to ask... how many indoor bathrooms were in the world when you were born? Inquiring minds want to know! We saved our programs in high school on paper tape and entered them at the teletype. DEC10. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:06:07 -0400 Hey, Shel, would you copy my 8 floppies to DVD for me? And I've got a half dozen 1/4 512mb SCSI tape cartridges that I would like to have copied too... Oh, yes, about 150 3.5 inch floppies as well; my floppy drive died last year and I do not feel it is worth $5 to replace it although I may get around to pulling it out of the machine sometime real soon now. PS: Anybody got a paper tape reader I could borrow, and a PDP7 to hook it up to? Anyone else out there realize that in 30 years we have gone from teletype machines and paper type to 30 LCD's and 500gb hard drives on personal computers? When I was born there was one one* electronic computer in the world. * Just googled it, apparently I was wrong, there were two working non-programmable EC's, and one programmable EC under construction. Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Shel Belinkoff wrote: A more powerful machine doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 2, 2006, at 9:06 AM, graywolf wrote: Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. Reminds me of a family get together years ago when my great great grandmother was still alive. There were four generations of mothers cooking in the kitchen. The youngest was going on and on about how it was inconceivable to have a kitchen without a microwave ... she had two. Her mother shook her head and said it was the dishwasher that made all the difference, she hated the time it took to clean up after dinner and the dishwasher made her feel like she wasn't some kind of hired help. Her mother snorted and said the two youngsters were just spoiled: in her youth, you had to fuss and fiddle with the gas stove and gas oven, cook things from scratch rather than from packaged mixes... My great great grandmother was a grand old lady, very quiet but very smart. She was born on a village farm in 1880 and emigrated to the US in 1903. Her comment, after hearing all the discussion by the other three, was that she though electricity was a wonderful idea ... it was a lot easier to see than it used to be. I'm sure she would agree with your honoring the indoor bathroom. She didn't live long enough to see the first personal computer. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Quoting graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. graywolf I'd have to say the pants zipper vbg and computer would be mine. Things i can live with out would be local politicians and light beer. :-) Dave Equine Photography in York Region
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Shel Belinkoff wrote: A more powerful machine doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. I think we're at cross purposes; the more powerful the computer and operating system by and large reduces the amount of computer knowledge the user needs. Now it's certainly not an issue with people on this list, but a growing number of people want a computer they bring home, plug in and with basic typing and mouse skills, it does everything they want without finding out (which they have no interest in) in anyway how it does it. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Ah! But you know what you're doing. I know people who have the shiny new machine who realise months later that the computer that went for recycling/sold/given away can only access old data. Often, sadly, they don't care and this is where images will be lost forever. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. And no different is the buying public in wanting the latest, that does more and more but is slowly becoming remote from any ability to use computers as they were a few years ago. Manufacturers need to create a market to sell more and more..and most of the public read the computer jargon in adverts or listen to salespeople (often agreeing with things they have zero understanding of) and are no wiser at the end. Malcolm
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
You don't need to have been born in 1880 to have experienced life without modern conveniences. In my young day in East Africa we had a wood fire and a paraffin (kerosene) fridge. Telephones and televisions were unknown. I went to the cinema only twice before I was thirteen (the coronation of Queen Elizabeth, and The Living Desert). Lighting was by pressure lamp, and the bathwater was heated by firewood in an old 44 gallon drum just outside the bathroom. Water came from the roof into a large tank. Milk came in a churn on the back of a bicycle. You probably don't want to hear about the thunderbox. This was the situation up until about 1965, when telephones, power, and the 20th Century arrived. Good times, though. John On Tue, 02 May 2006 17:41:22 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 2, 2006, at 9:06 AM, graywolf wrote: Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. Reminds me of a family get together years ago when my great great grandmother was still alive. There were four generations of mothers cooking in the kitchen. The youngest was going on and on about how it was inconceivable to have a kitchen without a microwave ... she had two. Her mother shook her head and said it was the dishwasher that made all the difference, she hated the time it took to clean up after dinner and the dishwasher made her feel like she wasn't some kind of hired help. Her mother snorted and said the two youngsters were just spoiled: in her youth, you had to fuss and fiddle with the gas stove and gas oven, cook things from scratch rather than from packaged mixes... My great great grandmother was a grand old lady, very quiet but very smart. She was born on a village farm in 1880 and emigrated to the US in 1903. Her comment, after hearing all the discussion by the other three, was that she though electricity was a wonderful idea ... it was a lot easier to see than it used to be. I'm sure she would agree with your honoring the indoor bathroom. She didn't live long enough to see the first personal computer. Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
- Original Message - From: Malcolm Smith Subject: RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? And no different is the buying public in wanting the latest, that does more and more but is slowly becoming remote from any ability to use computers as they were a few years ago. Manufacturers need to create a market to sell more and more..and most of the public read the computer jargon in adverts or listen to salespeople (often agreeing with things they have zero understanding of) and are no wiser at the end. What I am running into daily is people who have decided that they should join the 21st century, and have gone out to buy a digital camera. The sales people don't know the product, but they know if you buy this one, they make a commission, so that is what they flog. The consumer has been taught two things over the past 25 years: 1) Photography is as easy as point and click. Film cameras taught them that. 2) If it is Digital, it is better. Legions of self interested people people have taught them that. So, the go off to Best Buy or similar and pick up a camera, and expect it to be easy. When they blow it, they might make another attempt at the owners manual, but they are often written by and for geeks, which leaves about 95% of the buying public standing on the platform wondering where the train is. Sure, the resources to learn are out there, if one knows where to look, and more importantly, knows what to look for, and has time to make the search. Big iffs. BTW, my clientele is primarily professionals: doctors, lawyers, teachers, and university students, I am not dealing with mopes and fools for the most part in my day to day work life. What I am dealing with is people who have enough to do already in their lives without learning an entire new technology. They use computers at work, but when something goes wrong, they call up tech support and it gets looked after. They know how to run the software they need to run for their work if they use a computer, and don't know or care to know, or have time to learn, a bunch of new technology. They are expecting that the technology they have been sold will work the way it is advertised to work, and that it will work reliably. This is the real world outside of some jet propulsion lab or techno geek email list that bears little resemblance to the way most people live. I wonder if Shel, had he not discovered the PDML, or any other mail list devoted to technology, would be as well versed and as confident. He professes to be a jamoke about this stuff, but the reality is quite different. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hi Bill, I may be different from some people in that I spend a lot of time researching whatever interests me or what I need. I'm kind of hard wired that way, perhaps something I picked up from my parents or grand parents. Funny thing is, my brother and sister are that way as well. I've seen my brother spend twenty minutes at a market reading all the information of packages of light bulbs before deciding which would be best suited to his needs. But - and maybe they are different from most people - my friends spend a fair amount of time researching their major purchases as well, reading magazines, asking friends and associates about this brand or product or another, and so on. I suppose there are those who just walk into a Best Buy and ask for a computer and take home what the droid sells 'em, but I know very few people like that. As for my being a jamoke, well, I don't know if that's really the right word to describe my level of competence, but I do feel very much the dunce in many respects when it comes to certain areas of computer savvy. For example, I've never formatted my hard drive and reinstalled the operating system, and am uncertain as to how that's done. I don't understand flash photography, and there are features on my DSLR that I've never used and probably will never use. I use the darned thing like an old manual film camera. I can go on and on about what I ~don't~ know or understand. When Godders or John Francis describe things, I'm often lost. Others here seem to get what they're talking about. Maybe I'm a little above average in some areas, but compared to others on this list I feel very much like the kid in the back row struggling with the Dick and Jane readers (See Dick run. Run Dick, run. See Jane. She is watching Dick run. Watch out Dick. Oh! Too late. Poor Dick. Poor, poor Dick.) Shel [Original Message] From: William Robb I wonder if Shel, had he not discovered the PDML, or any other mail list devoted to technology, would be as well versed and as confident. He professes to be a jamoke about this stuff, but the reality is quite different.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Shel, just so you know some, of us are getting your posts on the first try. I received this twice, the first one time marked an hour later. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? A more powerful doesn't necessarily mean a machine that's more complicated to operate. While it's true that new programs may require a bit of time to learn, it seems that many, especially those designed for the average user, aren't that difficult to figure out, especially if you've used earlier versions of the same or similar programs. Granted, for some programs and for some people, taking a class or reading a well written book may be helpful. As for compatibility, I've solved that problem. I keep an older machine in running condition, plus, when I get a new machine, I add slots or older media. The latest machine here takes the old 3.5 floppy disks, but also has a CD player and burner and a DVD player and burner, as well as USB and Firewire ports. I'm still using WordPerfect 6.1 and Lotus 2.01 as well as the latest version of Photoshop. Compatibility is available for those who seek it. However, one cannot blindly go into CompUSA or some such and buy a computer off the shelf without doing their homework. People go to Consumer's Reports and read about refrigerators and toasters, buy car magazines to learn about the new cars they are considering, and in general do their homework to some degree. Buying a computer is no different in that regard. Shel [Original Message] From: Malcolm Smith For once, my sympathies lie with the public. Operating systems over the years have made it become simpler and simpler to operate computers and yet to keep up with technology, you need a more powerful machine, which folk know less and less about. As folk update hardware, their need to 'know how' to work it becomes more unnecessary, along with the fact that the storage methods used on previous machines aren't brought forward or are superseded on the new. I know lots of people with floppy discs, zip discs or CDs with their pictures stored on them, which their new machines can't access. How do you expect the non-technical average user to buy into a new system and method of storage, when every few years it's been superseded and been made obsolete? You used to take film pictures and put the results in the drawer. Now you have much more convenience on taking and sharing those images, but for most people long term storage is an unknown - even when they try.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
The short of the matter is that the average everyday person stored their photos either in albums or in boxes. There was no redundant backup of images. The negatives, if kept, were the means of reproducing the print. If they thought about it any further than that, they put their really important photos in a safe deposit box at the bank. With digital, they will have the prints and either no backup, or if they receive a CD-R, they will assume that is a permanent archive. It will be stored in a similar fashion as the negatives. In a box somewhere. I'm serious about photography, have worked in the IT industry, am very well aware of the need for backups, and *I* don't have what I would consider sufficient redundancy, and go weeks or months before backing up. In reality I don't think there has been that much of a paradigm shift for the average snapshooter consumer. They did little to safeguard their images in the analog world, seldom had more than one print made, and often the images were lost or destroyed through accident or just plain thrown away. In the digital world, little has changed, IMO. The fact is, most people don't care about their photographs until it's too late. Tom C. From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:20:01 -0600 - Original Message - From: Malcolm Smith Subject: RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? And no different is the buying public in wanting the latest, that does more and more but is slowly becoming remote from any ability to use computers as they were a few years ago. Manufacturers need to create a market to sell more and more..and most of the public read the computer jargon in adverts or listen to salespeople (often agreeing with things they have zero understanding of) and are no wiser at the end. What I am running into daily is people who have decided that they should join the 21st century, and have gone out to buy a digital camera. The sales people don't know the product, but they know if you buy this one, they make a commission, so that is what they flog. The consumer has been taught two things over the past 25 years: 1) Photography is as easy as point and click. Film cameras taught them that. 2) If it is Digital, it is better. Legions of self interested people people have taught them that. So, the go off to Best Buy or similar and pick up a camera, and expect it to be easy. When they blow it, they might make another attempt at the owners manual, but they are often written by and for geeks, which leaves about 95% of the buying public standing on the platform wondering where the train is. Sure, the resources to learn are out there, if one knows where to look, and more importantly, knows what to look for, and has time to make the search. Big iffs. BTW, my clientele is primarily professionals: doctors, lawyers, teachers, and university students, I am not dealing with mopes and fools for the most part in my day to day work life. What I am dealing with is people who have enough to do already in their lives without learning an entire new technology. They use computers at work, but when something goes wrong, they call up tech support and it gets looked after. They know how to run the software they need to run for their work if they use a computer, and don't know or care to know, or have time to learn, a bunch of new technology. They are expecting that the technology they have been sold will work the way it is advertised to work, and that it will work reliably. This is the real world outside of some jet propulsion lab or techno geek email list that bears little resemblance to the way most people live. I wonder if Shel, had he not discovered the PDML, or any other mail list devoted to technology, would be as well versed and as confident. He professes to be a jamoke about this stuff, but the reality is quite different. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
In a message dated 5/2/2006 9:08:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Humm...? That makes me think. The two modern conveniences I would not want to give up are the indoor bathroom, and the personal computer. graywolf I kind of like microwave ovens too. And I doubt I could live happily without my DVD player now (once my VCR, which I still have, of course). Cell phone -- it's sometimes a toss up whether it's more of a convenience or an annoyance. Marnie aka Doe ;-)
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? I kind of like microwave ovens too. And I doubt I could live happily without my DVD player now (once my VCR, which I still have, of course). I like my compound mitre saw and air nailer... William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
What sort of nails do you use to nail air? Dave S. On 5/3/06, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like my compound mitre saw and air nailer... William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Air nailers are awesome. I rotated the tires on my 55 Chevy last weekend, and was thinking how I wouldn't do it without an impact wrench. Of course my impact wrench is 35 years old, so maybe that doesn't count. Never mind:-). Paul On May 2, 2006, at 7:58 PM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? I kind of like microwave ovens too. And I doubt I could live happily without my DVD player now (once my VCR, which I still have, of course). I like my compound mitre saw and air nailer... William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Mon, 01 May 2006 05:37:42 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once you put all your files into a repository as large and as fast as a hard drive based backup system, making conversions en masse is simply not an issue. - Move the data to a new archive? Plug in the new drive, plug in the original, tell the OS to copy it. Have lunch or go to bed. It will be done by the time you get back. - Convert the data to a new format? Plug in the original archive, write a short script to do whatever conversion is necessary, go away and let the computer work. It's not that difficult, once you pass a certain threshold of resources and understanding. They say that tight-rope walking over Niagara isn't that difficult - once you pass a certain threshold of resources and understanding. John Godfrey On Apr 30, 2006, at 9:05 AM, George Sinos wrote: Bob - I don't see the time or cost of format conversion as different than the investment I'm making in scanning slides and prints into digital formats. And digital files are much easier and cheaper to convert to new formats than film and paper. Usually these conversions can be performed over a relatively long period of time. It's rare that everything must be converted on short notice. I see the situation as better than that of film conversion. As far as cheap on-line storage is concerned, I mentioned one current partial solution for photos earlier in the this thread. Others cannot be far behind. But US$ 40 per year for unlimited storage of jpg files is extremely cheap. Given that four copies of the files are stored in three locations in different regions of the country I feel pretty secure in using this as one part of my backup strategy. See you later, gs http://georgesphotos.net On 4/30/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip the problem is, though, that you will probably have to maintain an unbroken chain of conversions for however long you want to keep the files. This involves cost, either as work or as money, for each conversion. snip The only other possibility that might have a viable future is online storage similar to that that Google offer (or may offer soon). If storage online is cheap enough and secure enough, some company will offer it as a long-term archive for things like photos. They will take care of conversions transparently to the user, and economies of scale will make it profitable. Bob -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 1, 2006, at 2:45 AM, John Forbes wrote: They say that tight-rope walking over Niagara isn't that difficult - once you pass a certain threshold of resources and understanding. Tightrope walking over Niagra Falls is just as difficult as tightrope walking anywhere else. Once you have the skill to walk a tightrope high up in open air, you can do it anywhere. All it takes beyond that is courage, insanity or stupidity, depending upon the perspective of the person judging you. Few can develop the skill. It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
- Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. The very vast majority of people are not interested in this subject. They want technology that works, is simple, and doesn't require much thought or maintenance. Up intil recently, the vadt majority of pictures were stored on a hard copy, and were easily accessed, all one had to do was take the negative or print to the lab and place an order. Now that the computer industry has taken over the job of image storage, it has a defacto responsibility to the consumer to emulate the simplicity of film based image storage. This means a responsible approach to long term standards of file storage, and a long term approach to file retrieval. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 1, 2006, at 6:47 AM, William Robb wrote: The very vast majority of people are not interested in this subject. They want technology that works, is simple, and doesn't require much thought or maintenance. Up intil recently, the vadt majority of pictures were stored on a hard copy, and were easily accessed, all one had to do was take the negative or print to the lab and place an order. Now that the computer industry has taken over the job of image storage, it has a defacto responsibility to the consumer to emulate the simplicity of film based image storage. This means a responsible approach to long term standards of file storage, and a long term approach to file retrieval. To quote your expression on previous occasions, Bill: that's a load of bullshit. The very vast majority of people never thought about archiving and never will. Most of those people's photographs are damaged or lost over time. Are you saying that these kinds of people are representative of the PDML community of subscribers? There seems to be quite a bit of interest in the subject in this community of subscribers, given how many posts have been made on this thread. To say that someone else has the responsibility to do the work for you indicates that you personally just don't want be bothered taking care of what you ought to. For that 'vast majority of people' you allude to, I think the industry is busy delivering various kinds of solutions for them already. Not because of any high-falutin' de facto responsibility but because there's money to be made in providing storage solutions that are easy to use. Regards the standards, well, the only thing for certain is that they're a great idea. That's why there are so many of them. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
In a message dated 5/1/2006 6:49:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now that the computer industry has taken over the job of image storage, it has a defacto responsibility to the consumer to emulate the simplicity of film based image storage. This means a responsible approach to long term standards of file storage, and a long term approach to file retrieval. William Robb === Ahem. Computers are still not THAT easy to use. (I believe in computers adapting more to people than the other way around.) And there are still tons of people who use computers who don't know how to do more than the basic stuff (email, word processing, browsing). I am a geek, but I don't think everyone should have to be a geek just to use a computer. Marnie aka Doe
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Mon, 01 May 2006 14:38:45 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 1, 2006, at 2:45 AM, John Forbes wrote: They say that tight-rope walking over Niagara isn't that difficult - once you pass a certain threshold of resources and understanding. Tightrope walking over Niagra Falls is just as difficult as tightrope walking anywhere else. Once you have the skill to walk a tightrope high up in open air, you can do it anywhere. All it takes beyond that is courage, insanity or stupidity, depending upon the perspective of the person judging you. Few can develop the skill. It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. And the very busy, who don't have time to learn computer programming from scratch just in order to keep their images updated. Developing your argument, we should all go off like Linus Torvalds and create our own operating systems. And grow our own vegetables, bake our own bread, drill for our own oil. That's fine for geeks, market gardners, bakers and wild-catters. But not for the rest of us. John Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 1, 2006, at 7:22 AM, John Forbes wrote: It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. And the very busy, who don't have time to learn computer programming from scratch just in order to keep their images updated. Developing your argument, we should all go off like Linus Torvalds and create our own operating systems. And grow our own vegetables, bake our own bread, drill for our own oil. Learning how to operate a computer has virtually nothing to do with learning how to build and/or program one. Do you, John, know how to drive an automobile or choose a television broadcast? You must also, then, have mastered the art of designing and manufacturing these devices. Oh yes: You took/take pictures on film with a camera. Therefore, you know how to design and manufacture a camera, film, chemicals, enlarger, printing paper, etc etc. That is what the hyperbole in your logic is saying. That logic is flawed, and is not a development of my argument. Godfrey
Re: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am a geek Mark! 8-) - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hey, I'm probably at the low end of the technology oriented. Not a complete dunce, but nowhere near as knowledgeable as many people on the list. However, I can burn a CD or DVD, or copy my files to a second hard drive easily enough. I may not always know the fastest way to do things, and I don't know squat about writing scripts or such things, but it's far from rocket science. Copying all my files to a USB hard drive takes all of a minute of my time. While the machine churns away, I'm having a nice hot cup of tea, playing with my cats, photographing, or doing something else. Operating a computer is, for many tasks, no more difficult than operating a dishwasher. Shel [Original Message] From: John Forbes And the very busy, who don't have time to learn computer programming from scratch just in order to keep their images updated. Developing your argument, we should all go off like Linus Torvalds and create our own operating systems. And grow our own vegetables, bake our own bread, drill for our own oil. That's fine for geeks, market gardners, bakers and wild-catters. But not for the rest of us.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 1, 2006, at 7:22 AM, John Forbes wrote: It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. And the very busy, who don't have time to learn computer programming from scratch just in order to keep their images updated. Developing your argument, we should all go off like Linus Torvalds and create our own operating systems. And grow our own vegetables, bake our own bread, drill for our own oil. Learning how to operate a computer has virtually nothing to do with learning how to build and/or program one. Do you, John, know how to drive an automobile or choose a television broadcast? You must also, then, have mastered the art of designing and manufacturing these devices. Oh yes: You took/take pictures on film with a camera. Therefore, you know how to design and manufacture a camera, film, chemicals, enlarger, printing paper, etc etc. That is what the hyperbole in your logic is saying. That logic is flawed, and is not a development of my argument. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
I imagine the vast majority of photographs were stored like my parents' were when I was a kid. The had a big cardboard box in the attic about 25 inches on a side. In it were a half dozen albums, and half filling it were snapshot prints and negatives just tossed in loose. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- William Robb wrote: Up intil recently, the vadt majority of pictures were stored on a hard copy, and were easily accessed, all one had to do was take the negative or print to the lab and place an order.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Mon, 01 May 2006 16:50:36 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 1, 2006, at 7:22 AM, John Forbes wrote: It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. And the very busy, who don't have time to learn computer programming from scratch just in order to keep their images updated. Developing your argument, we should all go off like Linus Torvalds and create our own operating systems. And grow our own vegetables, bake our own bread, drill for our own oil. Learning how to operate a computer has virtually nothing to do with learning how to build and/or program one. Do you, John, know how to drive an automobile or choose a television broadcast? You must also, then, have mastered the art of designing and manufacturing these devices. Oh yes: You took/take pictures on film with a camera. Therefore, you know how to design and manufacture a camera, film, chemicals, enlarger, printing paper, etc etc. That is what the hyperbole in your logic is saying. That logic is flawed, and is not a development of my argument. Using a computer and programming a computer are two very different things, as you well know. Writing scripts is programming, and to somebody who has never done it, it represents a major obstacle. Saying that somebody who can't write a script is very incompetent is both arrogant and absurd. Of course nearly everybody COULD do it, but just because people have the capacity to do something doesn't mean that they MUST do it just in order to convince the geeky few that they are not very incompetent. John Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
- Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Hey, I'm probably at the low end of the technology oriented. Not a complete dunce, but nowhere near as knowledgeable as many people on the list. However, I can burn a CD or DVD, or copy my files to a second hard drive easily enough. I may not always know the fastest way to do things, and I don't know squat about writing scripts or such things, but it's far from rocket science. Copying all my files to a USB hard drive takes all of a minute of my time. While the machine churns away, I'm having a nice hot cup of tea, playing with my cats, photographing, or doing something else. Operating a computer is, for many tasks, no more difficult than operating a dishwasher. One of the things that sets you apart from the majority is that you are on a techno weenie mailing list, and hence have been made aware of the failings of the technology that you are using. This puts you light years ahead of most people. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi Regards the standards, well, the only thing for certain is that they're a great idea. That's why there are so many of them. The concept of a lot of standards as being a good thing is moronic. William Robb I think you missed the sarcasm there. Godders is quoting a famous joke in the IT world. -Adam
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
WooHoo (is that the correct PDML techno-term?) ... I'm ahead of some people ;-)) Seriously, Bill, there are a lot of folks who are not on this or other lists, who rarely surf the web for computer info, or participate in any technical forums, yet they seem to be able to make backups and burn DVD's with the best of 'em. I suppose in some respects I may know more than some people (I've recently taught a couple of people how to better use their computer), but even those who are supremely ignorant, like my recent clients, could make backups and archive their work. Shel [Original Message] From: William Robb One of the things that sets you apart from the majority is that you are on a techno weenie mailing list, and hence have been made aware of the failings of the technology that you are using. This puts you light years ahead of most people. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
MOST do not. Tom C. From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 12:45:42 -0700 WooHoo (is that the correct PDML techno-term?) ... I'm ahead of some people ;-)) Seriously, Bill, there are a lot of folks who are not on this or other lists, who rarely surf the web for computer info, or participate in any technical forums, yet they seem to be able to make backups and burn DVD's with the best of 'em. I suppose in some respects I may know more than some people (I've recently taught a couple of people how to better use their computer), but even those who are supremely ignorant, like my recent clients, could make backups and archive their work. Shel [Original Message] From: William Robb One of the things that sets you apart from the majority is that you are on a techno weenie mailing list, and hence have been made aware of the failings of the technology that you are using. This puts you light years ahead of most people. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On May 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Bob W wrote: Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on. You'll be needing Steve Swing Low Cotterell for that... The horse I rode in on isn't interested in Bill, sorry. Cotty? Godfrey
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
it's not just a matter of general ignorance (not meant pejoratively), but of people's priorities, and the arrogance of the IT industry as a whole, which seems to delight in inflicting unnecessary complexity and work on people. This was exemplified for me at work recently. One of the project managers complained to me that a new spreadsheet they were forced to use (unnecessarily, in my opinion) was not working properly. I went to see the team who wrote it, and they basically took the attitude that the project manager was blaming the technology and should learn to use it. This kind of thing makes my blood boil - the attitude that people should be grateful for the gifts the dweebs deign to hand down to them. If I was in control of that team I would immediately send them all on a user-centred design course and make sure they learn to listen to people's needs, and understand the context in which their crap software is to be used. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: Shel Belinkoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 May 2006 20:46 To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? WooHoo (is that the correct PDML techno-term?) ... I'm ahead of some people ;-)) Seriously, Bill, there are a lot of folks who are not on this or other lists, who rarely surf the web for computer info, or participate in any technical forums, yet they seem to be able to make backups and burn DVD's with the best of 'em. I suppose in some respects I may know more than some people (I've recently taught a couple of people how to better use their computer), but even those who are supremely ignorant, like my recent clients, could make backups and archive their work. Shel [Original Message] From: William Robb One of the things that sets you apart from the majority is that you are on a techno weenie mailing list, and hence have been made aware of the failings of the technology that you are using. This puts you light years ahead of most people. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
In a message dated 5/1/2006 1:11:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I was in control of that team I would immediately send them all on a user-centred design course and make sure they learn to listen to people's needs, and understand the context in which their crap software is to be used. -- Cheers, Bob Dream on. Marnie aka Doe ;-)
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hi! Tightrope walking over Niagra Falls is just as difficult as tightrope walking anywhere else. Once you have the skill to walk a tightrope high up in open air, you can do it anywhere. All it takes beyond that is courage, insanity or stupidity, depending upon the perspective of the person judging you. Few can develop the skill. It is not comparable to learning how to operate a computer and knowing what to do to move data, which simply takes storage devices, a little time with a book, and a plan to do what is required. Nearly anyone can do it, except for the very incompetent. Godfrey, you're being slightly wrong here... Consider this. Find a task which you cannot possibly do. For me it would be fixing my own car on my own. Find another person who can do it easily. For me it would be one of my best friends who is car mechanic by profession. Consider now that him and someone else is talking about fixing cars and you're watching... Shall I go on? Like Tim keeps saying in his signature (with slight modification of my own) - Never underestimate the power of stupidity. In my line of work I've found that great many people that say that they know how to operate a (Windows based) computer cannot understand the concept of unzipping a zip file content to a given directory. They are still very competent otherwise. Boris
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
- Original Message - From: Boris Liberman Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Godfrey, you're being slightly wrong here... Consider this. Find a task which you cannot possibly do. For me it would be fixing my own car on my own. Find another person who can do it easily. For me it would be one of my best friends who is car mechanic by profession. Consider now that him and someone else is talking about fixing cars and you're watching... Shall I go on? Like Tim keeps saying in his signature (with slight modification of my own) - Never underestimate the power of stupidity. In my line of work I've found that great many people that say that they know how to operate a (Windows based) computer cannot understand the concept of unzipping a zip file content to a given directory. They are still very competent otherwise. For the great unwashed, it is also a matter of complacency and lack of interest. I predict that an entire generation of pictures will mostly be lost because the computer is not archiving friendly. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
- Original Message - From: Boris Liberman Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Will there be a program, a software piece able to read the PEFs or DNGs or JPGs or TIFFs in 25 years? We are having a similar problem with defunct film formats. We haven't supported 126 for many years, and dropped support for 110 a year or so ago. Nor do we have access to a lab that prints odd sized black and white negs. I suspect there is a better chance of being able to read a legacy jpeg in 40 years than there will be in printing an Ektachrome slide. William Robb
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:00:37 +0100, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade-off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Jostein, here is my very simple solution which is probably not that good too. 1. I have two hard drives on my PC... I have a free-ware piece that copies/deletes everything that was changed-added/deleted on one drive to the other drive. So I have about 120 GB of logically mirrored storage. My computer is protected by UPS in case of power surge. Few times already it managed to survive. 2. Since I am approaching the moment where my capacity will be exceeded I've started the process of organizing my PEFs and index JPGs and transferring them to DVDs. I routinely use CDs and DVDs only by Verbatim. Verbatim CDs seem to hold for 3-4 years easily. I can say nothing about Verbatim DVDs because enough time hasn't passed yet. 3. My first backup solution was two CD copies of everything. Now I can consolidate in roughly 6:1 proportion so that my CD wallets will be useful for some time longer. And just in case I have two more backup copies of some of my files. The main question I keep asking myself is this however. Suppose now that I manage to keep my files (both from scanned film and digital) for, say, 25 years. So, suppose today I am 60 (I am gonna be 35 soon) and I want to review some of my Norwegian travel memories ;-)... Will there be a program, a software piece able to read the PEFs or DNGs or JPGs or TIFFs in 25 years? Boris, you are not going to go to sleep like Rip Van Winkle, and wake up in 30 years to find that JPEGS are history. You'll see a new format introduced (if it is), and make new copies of your CDs in the new format. It is inconceivable that a new format would be introduced without a way to convert existing formats to it. When PNG came out, all regular imaging software embraced it. John Boris -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
CD's are already being replaced by flash memory. DVD's are being replaced by DL DVD's, and eventually will probably be replace by flash memory too. What will replace flash memory, who knows? You can bet that no media will ever have a useful life expectancy of more than 10 years before it is superseded. Just plan on it. Actually prints in albums are the only thing I know of that have out lasted that 10 year figure, but the albums sure have changed over the years. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- John Forbes wrote: On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:00:37 +0100, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade-off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Jostein, here is my very simple solution which is probably not that good too. 1. I have two hard drives on my PC... I have a free-ware piece that copies/deletes everything that was changed-added/deleted on one drive to the other drive. So I have about 120 GB of logically mirrored storage. My computer is protected by UPS in case of power surge. Few times already it managed to survive. 2. Since I am approaching the moment where my capacity will be exceeded I've started the process of organizing my PEFs and index JPGs and transferring them to DVDs. I routinely use CDs and DVDs only by Verbatim. Verbatim CDs seem to hold for 3-4 years easily. I can say nothing about Verbatim DVDs because enough time hasn't passed yet. 3. My first backup solution was two CD copies of everything. Now I can consolidate in roughly 6:1 proportion so that my CD wallets will be useful for some time longer. And just in case I have two more backup copies of some of my files. The main question I keep asking myself is this however. Suppose now that I manage to keep my files (both from scanned film and digital) for, say, 25 years. So, suppose today I am 60 (I am gonna be 35 soon) and I want to review some of my Norwegian travel memories ;-)... Will there be a program, a software piece able to read the PEFs or DNGs or JPGs or TIFFs in 25 years? Boris, you are not going to go to sleep like Rip Van Winkle, and wake up in 30 years to find that JPEGS are history. You'll see a new format introduced (if it is), and make new copies of your CDs in the new format. It is inconceivable that a new format would be introduced without a way to convert existing formats to it. When PNG came out, all regular imaging software embraced it. John Boris --Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ --No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/327 - Release Date: 4/28/2006
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Will there be a program, a software piece able to read the PEFs or DNGs or JPGs or TIFFs in 25 years? Boris, you are not going to go to sleep like Rip Van Winkle, and wake up in 30 years to find that JPEGS are history. You'll see a new format introduced (if it is), and make new copies of your CDs in the new format. It is inconceivable that a new format would be introduced without a way to convert existing formats to it. When PNG came out, all regular imaging software embraced it. the problem is, though, that you will probably have to maintain an unbroken chain of conversions for however long you want to keep the files. This involves cost, either as work or as money, for each conversion. For large collections of photographs the cost may be quite significant. Since none of us can read the future we are betting that at the time when the next conversion becomes due we will be able to afford to convert a growing collection. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that decent prints are likely to be the best way to ensure the long(-ish) term survival of photographs, although I haven't actually done much about it since prints of that quality and longevity also involves a lot of cost. The only other possibility that might have a viable future is online storage similar to that that Google offer (or may offer soon). If storage online is cheap enough and secure enough, some company will offer it as a long-term archive for things like photos. They will take care of conversions transparently to the user, and economies of scale will make it profitable. Bob
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 14:26:06 +0100, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will there be a program, a software piece able to read the PEFs or DNGs or JPGs or TIFFs in 25 years? Boris, you are not going to go to sleep like Rip Van Winkle, and wake up in 30 years to find that JPEGS are history. You'll see a new format introduced (if it is), and make new copies of your CDs in the new format. It is inconceivable that a new format would be introduced without a way to convert existing formats to it. When PNG came out, all regular imaging software embraced it. the problem is, though, that you will probably have to maintain an unbroken chain of conversions for however long you want to keep the files. This involves cost, either as work or as money, for each conversion. For large collections of photographs the cost may be quite significant. Since none of us can read the future we are betting that at the time when the next conversion becomes due we will be able to afford to convert a growing collection. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that decent prints are likely to be the best way to ensure the long(-ish) term survival of photographs, although I haven't actually done much about it since prints of that quality and longevity also involves a lot of cost. The only other possibility that might have a viable future is online storage similar to that that Google offer (or may offer soon). If storage online is cheap enough and secure enough, some company will offer it as a long-term archive for things like photos. They will take care of conversions transparently to the user, and economies of scale will make it profitable. I think you're overstating the problem. JPEGs have been around for longer than most people have owned a computer, and TIFFs for longer still (PEFs may disappear, so saving them as TIFFs is good for the long term). It's quite likely that JPEGs and TIFFs will still be going strong for the next thirty years, if not longer, and even if they aren't, more than one change in that time seems highly improbable. Think of the resistance from people with an investment in existing file formats. Personally, I use the hard disks in my computer for storage, plus a copy on a large portable hard-drive which can be taken off-site. I just don't have time for CDs and DVDs; retrieval is a nightmare. Cheap off-line back-up is a nice idea, though. The problem with image storage is not the technology or the formats, but devising a good indexing system, and sticking to it. If you can't find a particular image out of the 100s of 1,000s you have stored, what's the point of storing them? John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Bob - I don't see the time or cost of format conversion as different than the investment I'm making in scanning slides and prints into digital formats. And digital files are much easier and cheaper to convert to new formats than film and paper. Usually these conversions can be performed over a relatively long period of time. It's rare that everything must be converted on short notice. I see the situation as better than that of film conversion. As far as cheap on-line storage is concerned, I mentioned one current partial solution for photos earlier in the this thread. Others cannot be far behind. But US$ 40 per year for unlimited storage of jpg files is extremely cheap. Given that four copies of the files are stored in three locations in different regions of the country I feel pretty secure in using this as one part of my backup strategy. See you later, gs http://georgesphotos.net On 4/30/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip the problem is, though, that you will probably have to maintain an unbroken chain of conversions for however long you want to keep the files. This involves cost, either as work or as money, for each conversion. snip The only other possibility that might have a viable future is online storage similar to that that Google offer (or may offer soon). If storage online is cheap enough and secure enough, some company will offer it as a long-term archive for things like photos. They will take care of conversions transparently to the user, and economies of scale will make it profitable. Bob
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Once you put all your files into a repository as large and as fast as a hard drive based backup system, making conversions en masse is simply not an issue. - Move the data to a new archive? Plug in the new drive, plug in the original, tell the OS to copy it. Have lunch or go to bed. It will be done by the time you get back. - Convert the data to a new format? Plug in the original archive, write a short script to do whatever conversion is necessary, go away and let the computer work. It's not that difficult, once you pass a certain threshold of resources and understanding. Godfrey On Apr 30, 2006, at 9:05 AM, George Sinos wrote: Bob - I don't see the time or cost of format conversion as different than the investment I'm making in scanning slides and prints into digital formats. And digital files are much easier and cheaper to convert to new formats than film and paper. Usually these conversions can be performed over a relatively long period of time. It's rare that everything must be converted on short notice. I see the situation as better than that of film conversion. As far as cheap on-line storage is concerned, I mentioned one current partial solution for photos earlier in the this thread. Others cannot be far behind. But US$ 40 per year for unlimited storage of jpg files is extremely cheap. Given that four copies of the files are stored in three locations in different regions of the country I feel pretty secure in using this as one part of my backup strategy. See you later, gs http://georgesphotos.net On 4/30/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip the problem is, though, that you will probably have to maintain an unbroken chain of conversions for however long you want to keep the files. This involves cost, either as work or as money, for each conversion. snip The only other possibility that might have a viable future is online storage similar to that that Google offer (or may offer soon). If storage online is cheap enough and secure enough, some company will offer it as a long-term archive for things like photos. They will take care of conversions transparently to the user, and economies of scale will make it profitable. Bob
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hi! I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade-off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Jostein, here is my very simple solution which is probably not that good too. 1. I have two hard drives on my PC... I have a free-ware piece that copies/deletes everything that was changed-added/deleted on one drive to the other drive. So I have about 120 GB of logically mirrored storage. My computer is protected by UPS in case of power surge. Few times already it managed to survive. 2. Since I am approaching the moment where my capacity will be exceeded I've started the process of organizing my PEFs and index JPGs and transferring them to DVDs. I routinely use CDs and DVDs only by Verbatim. Verbatim CDs seem to hold for 3-4 years easily. I can say nothing about Verbatim DVDs because enough time hasn't passed yet. 3. My first backup solution was two CD copies of everything. Now I can consolidate in roughly 6:1 proportion so that my CD wallets will be useful for some time longer. And just in case I have two more backup copies of some of my files. The main question I keep asking myself is this however. Suppose now that I manage to keep my files (both from scanned film and digital) for, say, 25 years. So, suppose today I am 60 (I am gonna be 35 soon) and I want to review some of my Norwegian travel memories ;-)... Will there be a program, a software piece able to read the PEFs or DNGs or JPGs or TIFFs in 25 years? Boris
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On 4/28/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The keeping quality of inkjet prints depends upon both the ink type and the mating of paper and ink, as well as the archival qualities of the paper itself. I'm not sure what you mean by reticulation ... What I see in my older dye-based inkjet prints that have faded is oxidation of the dyes, due to the dye as well as the fact that it didn't mate well with the paper. Reticulation, like on film, the surface looks like a cracked dried lake bed. I've seen it on some of my old inkjet prints too. Dave S On Apr 27, 2006, at 4:37 PM, graywolf wrote: I make prints of selected images. I guess I feel those are the ones worth keeping. Physical copies of everything would just be too expensive. BTW, unlike others I am not too enthused with the keeping quality of ink jet prints, especially since I noticed some reticulation in some not so old prints.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 27, 2006, at 11:08 PM, David Savage wrote: Reticulation, like on film, the surface looks like a cracked dried lake bed. I've seen it on some of my old inkjet prints too. Ah, ok. Sounds like a poor mating of ink and paper surface. I haven't seen that particular deterioration on any of my prints. I have seen chipping, though. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hi Jostein, To help out with your statistics (and to pass some time) I thought I'd take a shot at a response. I've recently reevaluated my storage situation after deciding I'd like to switch to shooting RAW primarily, and realising my 80gb notebook had run out of space. I've had one 40gb notebook harddisk fail on me once- started clicking and not long after I had to come to terms with losing more than a few shots. I purchased an 80gb 2.5 with external enclosure (usb 2.0 + firewire), and not long after a 80gb Vosonic X'S drive. I now also have a Zoomextreme ZX8 3.5 enclosure (love this thing.. it's aluminium, got it's own large fan and runs fast and quietly) with a 300gb drive inside, firewire and usb2.0, can also be daisychained to other drives- I occasionally link the 2.5 enclosure too. With the firewire, the 300gb drive feels nearly as fast as a 'local' drive, so storage and editing is pretty straightforward. I keep all originals (RAW + small jpg). I'm also going about backing up all photos to CD-Rs.. conventional ones, and I'm about halfway through. I still don't trust DVD-Rs because of a few bad experiences, mainly concerning minor looking scratches (judging by how you'd expect it to affect a CD-R) causing read problems. The 80gb X'S drive I use for extra storage in the field, I'd feel more at ease knowing my files are stored in a medium which doesn't bump in my bag around too often. I haven't really thought about the longevity of the access technology, but as long as there are a couple of options to choose from at any time, e.g. firewire or USB2.0, which are sufficiently fast for my purposes, I'm not too worried. Hmm.. software support for RAW.. quite happy with it at the moment. ACDSee Pro doesn't seem to be as accurate or flexible with my RAW files, but, it's still somewhat new in their software, so I trust they'll try to improve it. PSCS2 does me alright- if anything, my computer's does things a bit too slowly. I think if anything's going to be outdated soon, given me starting to be a bit more demanding towards my resources- it's probably going to be my computer's ability to cope with it all. I'd recommend a good 3.5 drive or two- if you can afford it, why not have a little farm of them. They're bang for buck, convenient, quick, and probably will be relevant for a while. I suppose if you were really bored, you could make a cd collection of it all too, just in case.. maybe even store it somewhere else. CDs are cheap, and I'm pretty sure that if you really wanted.. in 300 years you or someone like you could find some antique cd reader on eBay.. Probably nothing new here, but hope it's useful somehow. Cheers, Ryan - Original Message - From: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:09 PM Subject: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Dear gang, I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade-off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 28, 2006, at 5:22 AM, graywolf wrote: And then, the house I had the negatives and prints from my serious photography period stored at burned down. With digital media it is easy to have copies in two or more locations. Yes, one set of my DVD backups is stored offsite for this very reason. I was originally planning to rely on the DVDs as my hard drive maxed out, but when the time came I just couldn't bear the thought of deleting the files so I bought a big external FireWire drive. So far I'm only about 25% of the way through scanning my slides so if the house burns down I'll still be SOL, but there's far worse that can happen to me than the loss of a few pictures. - Dave
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Negs in binders. Digital camera originals on two separate hard drives and DVD. I'm leaning towards hard drive storage in the future. I increasingly find DVDs are antiquated and cumbersome technology. I print about 1 % of my work for reasons of cost and space. I shoot about 6000 frames a year. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hi Ryan I agree after seeing that you backup to other media too. sorry for the misunderstanding. greetings Markus -Original Message- From: Ryan Brooks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:45 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Markus Maurer wrote: Hi Ryan this is a real and dangerous misunderstanding of the purpose of Raid technology IMHO. Raid keeps your system running if one drive fails at a time but would not help against software corruption, (user) deletion of files, fire, theft and many more. greetings Markus That's why the backup copy is on non-spinning spindles off-site. See my original message. -Original Message- From: Ryan K. Brooks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:38 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? I store all my photos and scans on a dedicated RAID 5 setup.In my case, I built one using a 3ware card, my old PC, a gig-e card and FreeBSD. Today, I'd probably buy something like the ReadyNAS NV. I make backups to firewire disks and store those off-site. To me, this is the only way to make sure my files survive. -Ryan
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 28, 2006, at 2:12 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Ah, ok. Sounds like a poor mating of ink and paper surface. That, or the base shrunk and the top coating cracked and bubbled and came off. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
It's only happened to prints made on cheap Kodak paper, which in my experience didn't get along too well with Epson's inks. Dave S. On 4/28/06, Aaron Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 28, 2006, at 2:12 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Ah, ok. Sounds like a poor mating of ink and paper surface. That, or the base shrunk and the top coating cracked and bubbled and came off. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
This is one of the arguments for using the manufacturers' recommended OEM papers, of course. Godfrey On Apr 28, 2006, at 7:31 AM, David Savage wrote: It's only happened to prints made on cheap Kodak paper, which in my experience didn't get along too well with Epson's inks. Dave S. On 4/28/06, Aaron Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 28, 2006, at 2:12 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Ah, ok. Sounds like a poor mating of ink and paper surface. That, or the base shrunk and the top coating cracked and bubbled and came off. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Yep. My experience convinced me to stick with Epson's paper. I have had good results with Ilford's paper though. Dave S. On 4/28/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is one of the arguments for using the manufacturers' recommended OEM papers, of course. Godfrey On Apr 28, 2006, at 7:31 AM, David Savage wrote: It's only happened to prints made on cheap Kodak paper, which in my experience didn't get along too well with Epson's inks. Dave S.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 28, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: This is one of the arguments for using the manufacturers' recommended OEM papers, of course. Except my base shrinkage and cracking problem occurred with a supposedly archival Epson paper (since discontinued), using an archival Epson printer. LOL ... I didn't say that it was a *valid* argument... ;-) Godfrey ... this is an expired parrot, an ex-squawker, a parrot which has seen more lively days ...
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 28, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: This is one of the arguments for using the manufacturers' recommended OEM papers, of course. Except my base shrinkage and cracking problem occurred with a supposedly archival Epson paper (since discontinued), using an archival Epson printer. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Well you are taking about theory and I am talking about observed prints. Those prints I were made about 6 months ago on a current model Epson with Epson ink and Epson paper. However it is a low end model printer as I can not afford anything else. I was showing them outdoors to a friend and noticed that in the sunlight they looked rather grainy. Upon closer examination I say that the ink had apparently dried and shrunk a bit leaving a network of tiny cracks in the image. It is not noticeable to my old eyes in normal room light where the prints look good, but in the the relentless light of the sun, it is. One of the things about Epson printers that I have noticed over the years is that the archival qualities of their prints seems to be more in they advertising than in the prints themselves. The other brands seem to be more conservative with their claims. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: The keeping quality of inkjet prints depends upon both the ink type and the mating of paper and ink, as well as the archival qualities of the paper itself. I'm not sure what you mean by reticulation ... What I see in my older dye-based inkjet prints that have faded is oxidation of the dyes, due to the dye as well as the fact that it didn't mate well with the paper. A lot has happened in inkjet technology over the past several years. Today's better printers use either very carefully formulated dyes and paper that allow the paper to trap and encapsulate the dyes, protect them from oxidation, or pigment based inks that are much more resistant to fading than the older dye based inks. Epson's been the pioneer in this latter technology. Stress-aged pigment-ink prints on archival papers now show projected longevity in the hundreds of years. Certainly long enough for me. :-) Godfrey On Apr 27, 2006, at 4:37 PM, graywolf wrote: I make prints of selected images. I guess I feel those are the ones worth keeping. Physical copies of everything would just be too expensive. BTW, unlike others I am not too enthused with the keeping quality of ink jet prints, especially since I noticed some reticulation in some not so old prints. --No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 4/27/2006
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
So it turns out quite a few people feel the way I do. I would print my most important images and try to store them archivally. Print and transparency are, after all, the only storage media that don't require readers (apart from human vision, and I don't know when that will be antiquated). I don't think posterity will care about my photography (but then that's what some Indian cave-painters might have thought too!). At any rate I'd like my great-grandchildren to know I fooled around with cameras for a while. Badri On 4/28/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well you are taking about theory and I am talking about observed prints. Those prints I were made about 6 months ago on a current model Epson with Epson ink and Epson paper. However it is a low end model printer as
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
35mm slides do require readers, but they're very simple readers ... magnifying glasses or projectors. This became painfully apparent at the course I'm taking last evening when one person who brought in her art work as slides but didn't bring a light box or projector: it made it impossible to get a sense of what she was working on. (Next week, I'll carry my small portable light box and 8x loupe just in case..) gw: Prints showing reticulation after six months? Which printer model and paper did you use? and how were they stored? I have prints made on relatively cheap inkjet printers that have survived nicely for a decade and more already, stored in archival sleeves and not exposed to light too often, it's surprising to hear that but then the bottom- end printers are not really a standard against which to measure archival qualities. They're built to sell ink ... Epson doesn't even make print longevity claims for that grade of printer, far as I'm aware. Godfrey On Apr 28, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Badri A wrote: So it turns out quite a few people feel the way I do. I would print my most important images and try to store them archivally. Print and transparency are, after all, the only storage media that don't require readers (apart from human vision, and I don't know when that will be antiquated). I don't think posterity will care about my photography (but then that's what some Indian cave-painters might have thought too!). At any rate I'd like my great-grandchildren to know I fooled around with cameras for a while. Badri On 4/28/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well you are taking about theory and I am talking about observed prints. Those prints I were made about 6 months ago on a current model Epson with Epson ink and Epson paper. However it is a low end model printer as
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
So far, a back up onto a 120 gig Maxtor as well as a CD or DVD burn.For small files a CD burn and for larger files a DVD burn, so i have them backed up twice. With shooting Pef's and Nef's it does not take long to get a large folder, so its mostly Maxtor and DVD now. I'm thinking now that i have Apple and isync, i might just put my really good favorites there to. Dave So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Thanks Dave, How long do you expect your backup copies to last? Jostein Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So far, a back up onto a 120 gig Maxtor as well as a CD or DVD burn.For small files a CD burn and for larger files a DVD burn, so i have them backed up twice. With shooting Pef's and Nef's it does not take long to get a large folder, so its mostly Maxtor and DVD now. I'm thinking now that i have Apple and isync, i might just put my really good favorites there to. Dave So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Very interesting indeed. Long-life media is a good start. If even the minimum estimate of 80 years holds, media lifetime will not be the limiting factor. Second question: Will there be any CD-R readers to go round in 80 years from now? Personal computers have been with us for 25 years, and we've already passed through several generations of storage media that can no longer be read by mainstream computers. Jostein Quoting Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641 This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On 4/27/06, Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Second question: Will there be any CD-R readers to go round in 80 years from now? Probably only in museums landfill. Personal computers have been with us for 25 years, and we've already passed through several generations of storage media that can no longer be read by mainstream computers. Jostein True. But there is usually a transition period where you can copy your data to whatever new storage medium is coming through. Dave S
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Storage is not just for computers any more. When CD's came out the vinyl record disappeared, you can still get record players. Computers have become so tied up with the whole multi-media thing that they NEED to maintain compatibility with people's CD and DVD collections. My DVD collection is only about 100 or so, but I know people with over 500 DVD's and countless CDs. The cost of conversion is prohibitive and unless compatibility is maintained then take up of any new technology will be slow. Manufacturers don't want this so for a minor increase in cost they will build in the compatibility - until the content suppliers come up with a new way of licensing the content (and that is happening as we speak too). For the record I back up to CD, DVD and keep a hard drive copy. Every 12 months or so I go back and randomly check the CD's and DVD's to make sure that they are still readable. My early digital stuff is on 2 CD's rather than a CD and DVD, but it is on one gold CD and one silver CD, because no one could tell me what the difference between them was. Leon http://www.bluering.org.au http://www.bluering.org.au/leon Jostein wrote: Very interesting indeed. Long-life media is a good start. If even the minimum estimate of 80 years holds, media lifetime will not be the limiting factor. Second question: Will there be any CD-R readers to go round in 80 years from now? Personal computers have been with us for 25 years, and we've already passed through several generations of storage media that can no longer be read by mainstream computers. Jostein Quoting Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641 This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
This one time, at band camp, Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. I keep all my negatives in nice safe box. Kevin -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
That's ducky, but who will have equipment to read a DVD in 300 years??? Rick --- Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641 http://www.photo.net/photos/RickW __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
From: Leon Altoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/04/27 Thu PM 12:59:58 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Storage is not just for computers any more. When CD's came out the vinyl record disappeared, you can still get record players. Computers have become so tied up with the whole multi-media thing that they NEED to maintain compatibility with people's CD and DVD collections. My DVD collection is only about 100 or so, but I know people with over 500 DVD's and countless CDs. The cost of conversion is prohibitive and unless compatibility is maintained then take up of any new technology will be slow. Manufacturers don't want this so for a minor increase in cost they will build in the compatibility - until the content suppliers come up with a new way of licensing the content (and that is happening as we speak too). That's not necessarily true. Collectors are a minority - most people treated records as a disposable artefact. The way similar people treat CDs and DVDs _because they can_ makes me cringe. They are a manufacturer's joy because they will buy new media (often with the same entertainment as the previous media) and the methodology of utilising it without a second's thought. I have a friend who is a refuse disposal operative. Until company regulations forbade it, he collected his household appliances from work. His music system and other AV was _way_ better than I could afford. People had thrown it out because they didn't like the colour. With that kind of market, there is little incentive for manufacturers to implement compatibility - as we have discovered here. For the record I back up to CD, DVD and keep a hard drive copy. Every 12 months or so I go back and randomly check the CD's and DVD's to make sure that they are still readable. My early digital stuff is on 2 CD's rather than a CD and DVD, but it is on one gold CD and one silver CD, because no one could tell me what the difference between them was. Leon http://www.bluering.org.au http://www.bluering.org.au/leon Jostein wrote: Very interesting indeed. Long-life media is a good start. If even the minimum estimate of 80 years holds, media lifetime will not be the limiting factor. Second question: Will there be any CD-R readers to go round in 80 years from now? Personal computers have been with us for 25 years, and we've already passed through several generations of storage media that can no longer be read by mainstream computers. Jostein Quoting Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641 This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: True. But there is usually a transition period where you can copy your data to whatever new storage medium is coming through. Exactly. Whatever media one choose, it has to be renewed regularly. Question is how often. Every five years seems to be a good number to me. I gravitate towards this because it's a number that has been mentioned for life-time expectancy of both CD/DVDs and for harddrives, and also because I tend to change computers about every five years. When changing computers, chances are that one would hit the transition period as well, I hope. However, from a consumer perspective I think it sucks big time that you have to migrate your archive every five years to maintain your memories. With film, memories could pass down through generations without much maintenance. I can't imagine anyone wanting to propagate my archive every five years when I'm no longer around. But then again, that could say more about the quality of my photos than anything else...:-) Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
RE: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Jostein wrote: Very interesting indeed. Long-life media is a good start. If even the minimum estimate of 80 years holds, media lifetime will not be the limiting factor. Second question: Will there be any CD-R readers to go round in 80 years from now? Personal computers have been with us for 25 years, and we've already passed through several generations of storage media that can no longer be read by mainstream computers. This sort of question frightens me, as I have stuff I don't want to lose. The more I think about it, the answer was/is to take it on film to begin with. I've got negatives and slides going back many decades and they can't be wiped out by any computer error. We've gone through this many times and a generations films will be lost by mistake in some way or compatibility issue and film etc is more likely to survive at the back of a drawer. Grim. Malcolm
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On 27 Apr 2006 at 23:41, Kevin Waterson wrote: This one time, at band camp, Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. I keep all my negatives in nice safe box. Is it hermetically sealed and what's the fire rating? Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:/home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Mark Roberts wrote: This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641 - Some time ago when I was backing up to CDs I researched this on the web. The consensus for archival quality seemed to point to the gold CDs made by Mam-a -- a Japanese company, but some of their CDs and DVDs are made in Colorado. I believe they also manufacture in France and Japan. Then last spring when I got a DVD writer, I bought a supply of Mam-a DVDs. These are silver. Mam-a didn't yet produce gold ones. Perhaps they do now. Kodak doesn't manufacture these. They buy them from elsewhere -- probably from Mam-a. Anyway, that's how my photos are currently being archived. Joe
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On 27 Apr 2006 at 22:59, Leon Altoff wrote: Computers have become so tied up with the whole multi-media thing that they NEED to maintain compatibility with people's CD and DVD collections. My DVD collection is only about 100 or so, but I know people with over 500 DVD's and countless CDs. The cost of conversion is prohibitive and unless compatibility is maintained then take up of any new technology will be slow. Manufacturers don't want this so for a minor increase in cost they will build in the compatibility - until the content suppliers come up with a new way of licensing the content (and that is happening as we speak too). I too think that CD and at the least DVD media will remain readily readable for some time, I guess at least 25 years and they will be commonplace in computers for the next 10-15 years even if just as a legacy media function of a new multi- disc drive. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:/home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
General interest photos are stored on a hard drive and backed up to DVD. Important photos are stored on two hard drives and backed up to two DVDs. It's convenient and adequate for my needs. I burn DVDs on a regular basis while doing something else. That way it doesn't become a burden. Paul -- Original message -- From: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear gang, I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade-off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 27, 2006, at 9:14 AM, Jostein wrote: Whatever media one choose, it has to be renewed regularly. Question is how often. Every five years seems to be a good number to me. I gravitate towards this because it's a number that has been mentioned for life-time expectancy of both CD/DVDs and for harddrives, and also because I tend to change computers about every five years. When changing computers, chances are that one would hit the transition period as well, I hope. In five years at Photographic Solutions, we watched four storage formats arrive, gain popularity and vanish. I still get calls from people who've heard I have a cartridge DVD-RAM drive who want all their data copied. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
It does..look interesting. My skipping style of reading may have missed the method of 'pressing' vs 'burning'. I store all CD's in individual styrene (?) cases, some clear, some colored. I wonder if the colored cases would provide a further light inhibiting advantage. Seems possible. Interesting thread. Jack --- Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This looks interesting: http://www.imaginginfo.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=3id=1641 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
The size of files created by PEFs (and I suppose some other raw formats) doesn't seem particularly large or cumbersome, considering that a scanned color 35mm file is about 140mb or so (Nikon Coolscan, 4000ppi), while a PEF (from the DS) is only about 10mb, and as little as about 1/2 that if converted to DNG. I don't recall people complaining, or commenting, g about large-sized scanned files as much as they do the smaller RAW files. Shel [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] With shooting Pef's and Nef's it does not take long to get a large folder, so its mostly Maxtor and DVD now. I'm thinking now that i have Apple and isync, i might just put my really good favorites there to.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 27, 2006, at 10:08 AM, Shel Belinkoff wrote: I don't recall people complaining, or commenting, g about large-sized scanned files as much as they do the smaller RAW files. Think of me -- the 4000 dpi scans from 6x7 clock in at well over 500mb apiece. What knocks me out is how my couple of years old computer handles these gigantic files with no trouble but runs like a slug if I hand it a 10mb RAW file. Yeah, I know, the RAW file takes a lot more work to display. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Hi Jostein, To help out with your statistics (and to pass some time) I thought I'd take a shot at a response. I've recently reevaluated my storage situation after deciding I'd like to switch to shooting RAW primarily, and realising my 80gb notebook had run out of space. I've had one 40gb notebook harddisk fail on me once- started clicking and not long after I had to come to terms with losing more than a few shots. I purchased an 80gb 2.5 with external enclosure (usb 2.0 + firewire), and not long after a 80gb Vosonic X'S drive. I now also have a Zoomextreme ZX8 3.5 enclosure (love this thing.. it's aluminium, got it's own large fan and runs fast and quietly) with a 300gb drive inside, firewire and usb2.0, can also be daisychained to other drives- I occasionally link the 2.5 enclosure too. With the firewire, the 300gb drive feels nearly as fast as a 'local' drive, so storage and editing is pretty straightforward. I keep all originals (RAW + small jpg). I'm also going about backing up all photos to CD-Rs.. conventional ones, and I'm about halfway through. I still don't trust DVD-Rs because of a few bad experiences, mainly concerning minor looking scratches (judging by how you'd expect it to affect a CD-R) causing read problems. The 80gb X'S drive I use for extra storage in the field, I'd feel more at ease knowing my files are stored in a medium which doesn't bump in my bag around too often. I haven't really thought about the longevity of the access technology, but as long as there are a couple of options to choose from at any time, e.g. firewire or USB2.0, which are sufficiently fast for my purposes, I'm not too worried. Hmm.. software support for RAW.. quite happy with it at the moment. ACDSee Pro doesn't seem to be as accurate or flexible with my RAW files, but, it's still somewhat new in their software, so I trust they'll try to improve it. PSCS2 does me alright- if anything, my computer's does things a bit too slowly. I think if anything's going to be outdated soon, given me starting to be a bit more demanding towards my resources- it's probably going to be my computer's ability to cope with it all. I'd recommend a good 3.5 drive or two- if you can afford it, why not have a little farm of them. They're bang for buck, convenient, quick, and probably will be relevant for a while. I suppose if you were really bored, you could make a cd collection of it all too, just in case.. maybe even store it somewhere else. CDs are cheap, and I'm pretty sure that if you really wanted.. in 300 years you or someone like you could find some antique cd reader on eBay.. Probably nothing new here, but hope it's useful somehow. Cheers, Ryan - Original Message - From: Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:09 PM Subject: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity? Dear gang, I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade-off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
1) make high quality prints of the stuff you want to keep around forever and put them into high quality storage binders. 2) digital images ... As has been said many times before, the key to storage and archiving of digital images is replication and maintenance, not permanence of the media. Build a good archive schema and maintain it, migrate it to new media as standards change. Godfrey On Apr 27, 2006, at 4:09 AM, Jostein wrote: Dear gang, I discovered the need more storage thread just now, by looking in the archives. Long term storage is a hot topic among my friends over here at the moment, but nobody seems to have any best practice to point to. Nobody includes me too :-) but I would very much like to establish a good practice for myself. So by googling, and some thinking, I've come down to a list of things to consider. I'm not sure if this is a good list to go by, and would very much like to hear some opinions: 1. Longevity of storage medium (Hard-drive, DVD, etc.) 2. Longevity of the technology used to access the medium (USB, SCSI, etc.) 3. Longevity of software support for the chosen file format (RAW, TIFF, etc.) Then there is: 4. Data safeguarding (backup routines etc.) 5. Data availability (access time to a file) 6. Production volume (number of exposures and edit-files) 7. Convenience 8. Cost (both time and money) By any measure, a solution to cover all this points will be a trade- off between several of them. Convenience and longevity pull in the same direction, for example, while cost pulls the other way. So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Id does? Why is that? I've not noticed any significant difference between large scanned file and raw files. Maybe it's the software you're computer is having trouble with, not specifically the files. Shel [Original Message] From: Aaron Reynolds Think of me -- the 4000 dpi scans from 6x7 clock in at well over 500mb apiece. What knocks me out is how my couple of years old computer handles these gigantic files with no trouble but runs like a slug if I hand it a 10mb RAW file. Yeah, I know, the RAW file takes a lot more work to display. -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
I store all my photos and scans on a dedicated RAID 5 setup.In my case, I built one using a 3ware card, my old PC, a gig-e card and FreeBSD. Today, I'd probably buy something like the ReadyNAS NV. I make backups to firewire disks and store those off-site. To me, this is the only way to make sure my files survive. Writable optical media cannot be trusted; especially since batches seem to go bad all at once. If one of my drives die, I just feed it another disk and the RAID rebuilds.When the whole thing gets too small (I'm at 1.2 TB), I'll just move it over to the next technology via the network as I did from my old 200GB setup. Great way to recycle your old gear too! This method keeps the bits alive and not on a non-accessible DVD somewhere with questionable status. I can also work with the files directly in PS or C1 and not have to screw around with burning another disk. I'm also then up for using the next-gen software; whether it be aperture or lightroom. -Ryan
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
I would hope as lomg as a negative would hold out. I know the longevity numbers thrown out are from lab tests, but i would hope as long as computers are made to read my formats, or atleast give me time to upgrade them to what ever format comes along in the future. 30-50 years would be nice as a start number.g Although i keep all my equine shots, and only a fraction are sold, it would not be a disaster for me if after 10 years i could not access them. If no one is interested in 2006, what makes me think they'll be in 2016.:-) However for my personal shots that are recording York Regions farm/barn/landscapes and stuff of my family and cats etc, i'm doing, i would hope the data can be kept forever, and the good ones get printed so that would help in longevity i suppose. Wow,,, what a ramble LOL Dave Dave Thanks Dave, How long do you expect your backup copies to last? Jostein Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So far, a back up onto a 120 gig Maxtor as well as a CD or DVD burn.For small files a CD burn and for larger files a DVD burn, so i have them backed up twice. With shooting Pef's and Nef's it does not take long to get a large folder, so its mostly Maxtor and DVD now. I'm thinking now that i have Apple and isync, i might just put my really good favorites there to. Dave So what do you think? And how do you store your precious moments? Thanks for your thoughts, Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Jostein wrote: Will there be any CD-R readers to go round in 80 years from now? That will probably be determined by things like these gold archival disks: If enough people and institutions use these disks or something like them for long-term storage, then there will be a market for equipment to read them.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
This one time, at band camp, Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it hermetically sealed and what's the fire rating? not sure if they are hermitically sealed, but they are sealed. and the fire rating is 2 hours. UL72 Class 350 / ECBS.S says the panel on the back. Kind regards Kevin -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
I have my pictures on my desktop hard drive. And since I have a laptop I am thinking of copying pictures I don't want to lose to it as well. I could easily lose 80-90% of my photos. :-) Only some do I really, really like. I make backups of various picture directories to DVDs periodically. I suggested once that hard drives were better for storage than DVDs and was jumped on. But from my experience with computers for 20+ years or so, I find fixed media more reliable than removable media. So I've been thinking of getting an external hard drive as well. I'm just lucky my hard drive hasn't crashed. Hard drives have crashed on me in the past. About two. But most can last a long time. Long enough, anyway, until I upgrade to a newer and bigger drive and then copy stuff to it from the existing hard drive. As a former computer consultant, I used to recommend to people that they do tape backups, because, believe it or not, tape can last a very long time. Then it became harder and harder to find tape drives and I stopped consulting pretty much some time ago. I keep thinking I'd prefer to do tape backups. Maybe I will see if there are some tape drives still around somewhere one of these days. When I am willing to spend more on my camera hobby again. Film, transparencies, tape can last longer than DVDs or hard drives. I ran across this article a while ago. IBM expert warns of short life span for CDs... http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/01/10/73755_HNcdlifespan_1.html He's talking about CDs, but I think it applies to DVDs too, to a degree. Probably a large degree. Analog storage will last longer than digital storage. Or something that has more durability, than is similar to other forms of analog storage, will last longer than things like drives that have moving parts, or CDs/DVDs that can degrade due to dye. That is just my opinion. A slightly informed one, but not a highly informed one. Marnie aka Doe :-)
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
Its mostly a jpeg or raw thing for me Shel. My equine work is 99.9% jpeg, so i can get a 3 day weekend on a CD assuming 700mb of data or less. However, if i do my personal shooting over a weekend, i might have enough pef's or nef's to fill 3-4 CD's, so i use dvd's to keep space in my Caselogic holders. Case in point, after GFM last year, it took 5 CD's to back up my pictures. If i had a DVD recorder at that time, i could have put them all on one DVD. It is slow to back up on my PC as its only USB 1 to the Maxtor. Dave The size of files created by PEFs (and I suppose some other raw formats) doesn't seem particularly large or cumbersome, considering that a scanned color 35mm file is about 140mb or so (Nikon Coolscan, 4000ppi), while a PEF (from the DS) is only about 10mb, and as little as about 1/2 that if converted to DNG. I don't recall people complaining, or commenting, g about large-sized scanned files as much as they do the smaller RAW files. Shel [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] With shooting Pef's and Nef's it does not take long to get a large folder, so its mostly Maxtor and DVD now. I'm thinking now that i have Apple and isync, i might just put my really good favorites there to.
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 27, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Shel Belinkoff wrote: Id does? Why is that? I've not noticed any significant difference between large scanned file and raw files. Maybe it's the software you're computer is having trouble with, not specifically the files. Could be -- but regardless, if the computer is too slow to run the software for the one file format and not the other, I'm going to prefer to work with the one that runs faster. Buying a new computer isn't a high priority for me because it would be solely to get more speed when using RAW -- a format that I don't use, because if I'm going for a high quality image I'll be shooting 6x7. The digital stuff is all about turnaround speed for me. (Yes, I realize that a lot of people like to shoot RAW and think my reasons for not shooting RAW are stupid. Hoo-ray. But I cannot wirelessly send off a RAW file between innings very easily -- now that the Rogers Centre has added WiFi for press, I can actually just pop the SD card out of my camera and into my Palm, attach the file to an e-mail and send it right from the camera bay. Progress! Who needs a laptop?) -Aaron
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
On Apr 27, 2006, at 6:14 AM, Jostein wrote: ... However, from a consumer perspective I think it sucks big time that you have to migrate your archive every five years to maintain your memories. With film, memories could pass down through generations without much maintenance. I can't imagine anyone wanting to propagate my archive every five years when I'm no longer around. ... I can re-copy my digital photo archives, losslessy, all 165,000 image files of it, in about an hour and a half easily, with no more effort than setting up the new media and telling the computer to copy it. My film negatives, carefully archival processed stored in archival sleeves, are deteriorating after 25-30 years. Not to unusable, but it would be difficult to make prints of the quality that could be made from them when they were fresh. Film is fragile and unique, not easily reproducible. I'll take the tradeoffs of digital media any time. And after I'm gone, well, I figure my interest in the work will likely diminish. It will be someone else's affair as to whether it is worth keeping around. Godfrey
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] And after I'm gone, well, I figure my interest in the work will likely diminish. It will be someone else's affair as to whether it is worth keeping around. I think private persons have higher stakes in this than do professionals; it's the the memories of previous generations. I've spent many hours this winter scanning old photos of near and distant relatives, to much appreciation by the rest of the family. It's one heck of a job, but the gratitude I get in return is certainly worth it. Most of the photographers have been six feet under for a long time already. Still, the legacy is there, and is important. I would like to do my best to propagate not only my own shots, but the legacy I have maintained as well. Jostein
Re: OT: How do you store your precious moments for posterity?
The option to propagate the original without quality loss is indeed one of the major advantages of digital over film. My point, though, was how to establish a good practice. :-) Jostein - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can re-copy my digital photo archives, losslessy, all 165,000 image files of it, in about an hour and a half easily, with no more effort than setting up the new media and telling the computer to copy it. My film negatives, carefully archival processed stored in archival sleeves, are deteriorating after 25-30 years. Not to unusable, but it would be difficult to make prints of the quality that could be made from them when they were fresh. Film is fragile and unique, not easily reproducible. I'll take the tradeoffs of digital media any time. And after I'm gone, well, I figure my interest in the work will likely diminish. It will be someone else's affair as to whether it is worth keeping around. Godfrey
