[VIHUELA] Re: Mersenne reference

[Martyn Hodgson]

   [1]MERHU2_5_TEXT

MERHU2_5_TEXT

   On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:02:49 GMT, Monica Hall
wrote:
 I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with Mersenne's
 monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in
 Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears.
 "Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom
 des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur."
 Presumably there is a chapter about  genres somewhere in the book.
 I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really
   want
 to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference.
 Thank you
 Monica
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[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions

[Martyn Hodgson]

   And a surprise to me too - since this suggestion isn't supported by the
   evidence of Strad's stringing instructions!
   For example the violin stringing sizes of Tartini/Riccati (eighteenth
   century) applied to the guitar:
   - on the fourth course the instructions pretty clearly suggest a low
   bourdon on the 'treble' side which is thicker (0.95/0.89mm) than the
   third course (0.70/0.73mm) (the fourth high octave treble is 0.55mm);
   - on the fifth course the bourdon is even thicker at 1.13/1.06mm with a
   high octave treble of 0.66/0.69mm.
   Yes, as said, the analysis was a bit speculative - but not so much out
   as to result in stringing at the wrong octave!
   Further, is your proposer an advocate of tiny five course guitars? -
   for a string to reach d'' (ie an octave and a tone above middle C)
   without snapping would require a string length of only around
   35cm...  I know of one recent publication which
   promoted this diminutive sort of size for early four course guitars (in
   fact unlikely in my view), but not for the later five course instrument
   where we have so much iconographic and other evidence on size.
   regards
   Martyn

   On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 09:33:51 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
   Hi Martyn
   Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I
   have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am
   seriously challenged.
   What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to
   the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a
   "standard" 5-course  guitar without additional open basses?
   One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has
   suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons
   on the 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant
   with high octave strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a
   d" d'.
   This came as rather a surprise to me.
   As ever
   Monica
   > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
   >
   >
   >Dear Monica,
   >
   >Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in
   which I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters
   (Tartini's and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions
   for the  chitarra tiorbata.
   >
   >Here's the link
   >
   >[2]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf
   >
   >I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string
   sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more
   common  I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions
   which is generally in line with what you say below.
   >
   >I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average
   tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the
   chitarra tiorbata of around 34Kg.  But I thought it prudent to express
   some caution then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of
   some of the previous analysis means that few unequivocal  conclusions
   may be drawn"Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it
   gives a reasonable indication of the tensions employed.
   >
   >regards
   >
   >Martyn
   >
   >On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall
   <[3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >
   >
   >  I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing
   instructions for
   >  the chitarra ttiorbata again.
   >
   >  I have two queries.
   >
   >  Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth
   >  courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably)
   >  standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of
   a
   >  different thickness to the strings used on the guitar.
   >
   >  Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to
   e''
   >  whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave &
   a 6th
   >  lower. There is a considerable difference in string length
   between the
   >  violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the
   strings
   >  to completely different pitches.
   >
   >  Here are the instructions.
   >
   >  [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first
   strings
   >  (cantini)
   >  Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second
   strings
   >  (sotanelle)]
   >
   >  Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first
   >  strings (cantini) g
   >
   >  Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d
   >
   >  Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella)
   d'
 

[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I
   report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters
   (Tartini's and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions
   for the chitarra tiorbata.
   Here's the link
   [1]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf
   I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes
   since these were such a substantial part of his output and more
   common   I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions
   which is generally in line with what you say below.
   I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average
   tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra
   tiorbata of around 34Kg.  But I thought it prudent to express some
   caution then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some
   of the previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be
   drawn"Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a
   reasonable indication of the tensions employed.
   regards
   Martyn

   On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
 I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for
 the chitarra ttiorbata again.
 I have two queries.
 Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth
 courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably)
 standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a
 different thickness to the strings used on the guitar.
 Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e''
 whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th
 lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between
   the
 violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings
 to completely different pitches.
 Here are the instructions.
 [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings
 (cantini)
 Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings
 (sotanelle)]
 Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first
 strings (cantini) g
 Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d
 Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) d'
 Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a
 Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) a'
 They have never really seemed to make sense to me but perhaps I am
 missing something.
 As ever
 Monica
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References

   1. https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the
   lower octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous
   about this (I've not yet seen the EM article myself)?
   Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the
   range down to contrabass ,B  and the quality of sound, a practical
   problem with this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM
   article)  would seem to be the large gap below the third course (g) and
   the next stoppable course (c).  However, if the first five unstopped
   basses were at the upper octave they would then continue directly
   scalewise downwards from the third course: ie  g f e d c B.  with the
   last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g (because of string
   technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper indicates (or they
   could be an octave down thus simply extending the scalewise sequence
   down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or  archlute.).
   Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as
   open strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic .
   Or perhaps I've misunderstood ..
   Marty

   On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall
wrote:
   Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music
   for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor.
   Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is
   in Scottish Lute Ms. "Pamure 5" and is on your CD.
   The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others.
   In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a//  a/// 4  5  6  7 just to
   confuse.
   As ever
   Monica
   > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop <[1]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   >
   > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for
   accompaniment, with some solos being composed as well. The main keys
   for a baroque guitar include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason
   close to the fretboard would be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm.
   Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for accompaniment
   situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. But I
   don't know...
   >
   > Rob
   >
   > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:
   >
   > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are
   five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses.
   >
   > From 1st course down the tuning is
   >
   > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C
   B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped.
   >
   > There is a gap  between the courses on the fingerboard and the open
   basses.
   >
   > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument
   which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the
   outside position.
   >
   > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this.
   >
   > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the
   courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th
   courses.
   >
   > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th
   courses in the upper octave.
   >
   > As ever.
   >
   > Monica
   >
   >
   > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   > >
   > >Monica,
   > >
   > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing
   courses: the first string is always the first course.
   > >
   > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning
   you describe appears to be:
   > >
   > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g
   > >
   > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please
   correct me if I'm wrong.
   > >
   > >Rob MacKillop
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall <
   [4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[5]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
   > >
   > >?space?--  The latest issue of Early Music has a short
   article on the guitarre
   >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method
   different
   >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt -
   >
   >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B
   >
   >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B,
   >
   >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g
   >
   >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative)
   >
   >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the
   lowest
   >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this
   is
   >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct
   pitch but
   >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than
   re-entrant in
   >the strictest sense of the term.
   >
   >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it
   >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line.
   >
   >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the 

[VIHUELA] Re: Temperaments & Fretting on Early Guitars

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Edward,
   The problem with employing an unequal temperament on the five course
   guitar is the prevalence of sliding chord shapes employed on every fret
   in much of the extant repertoire - ie Alfabeto.  This has also been
   pointed out in previous communications and papers.
   M.H.

   On Sunday, 12 May 2019, 09:05:59 BST, Edward Yong
wrote:
   Hi everyone!
   I'm thinking about exploring meantone on my renaissance and baroque
   guitars. At the moment they are in equal temperament, but I usually
   have my renaissance lute in 1/4 comma meantone and my baroque archlute
   in 1/6 comma (unless I'm doing earlier music).
   I was wondering about meantone on the two guitars, but was wondering
   whether there was any historical evidence for the use of meantone on
   renaissance and baroque guitars. Also evidence for tastini on them
   would be helpful!
   I have that helpful calculator for frets in various temperaments, but
   can't find anything for early guitars. Should I simply place them by
   ear or use ClearTune for placing frets in the appropriate temperaments?
   Best,
   Edward C. Yong
   
   ÏοÏÏο ηλεκÏÏονικÏν 
ÏαÏÏδÏομείον εκ
   είΠαδοιο ÎµÎ¼ÎµÏ ÎµÏÎμÏθη.
   Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPadis missæ sunt.
   æ¤é»åéµä»¶ç¼éäºèªå¾iPadã
   This e-mail was sent from my iPad.
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References

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[VIHUELA] Re: London visit

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Jocelyn,
   Good that you're coming over next month. I don't usually attend Lute
   Soc meetings (too far from the Yorkshire Dales for a grand day out!)
   but I'll try to make that on 11th May.
   regards,
   Martyn

   On Tuesday, 2 April 2019, 02:34:22 BST, Nelson, Jocelyn
wrote:
   Hello Everyone,
   I just wanted to let you know I'm visiting London next month and plan
   to attend the 11 May Lute Society meeting. I've been in touch with
   several of you for many years, especially Monica, and if you'll be
   there too I'll finally get a chance to meet you. I'm looking forward to
   the meeting very much and hope to see some of you there!
   Best wishes,
   Jocelyn
   Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
   Teaching Assistant Professor
   Early Guitar, Music History
   506 School of Music
   East Carolina University
   252-328-1255 Office
   252-328-6258 Fax
   [1]nels...@ecu.edu
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References

   1. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Early six course Spanish guitaRe: fretting and stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I would be grateful for any information on two aspects of the Spanish
   six (double) course  guitar introduced there in the second half of the
   eighteenth century and which continued to be played into the
   nineteenth:
   Fretting: - as far as I'm aware all extant instruments of this type
   have fixed metal frets on the neck but, of course, some could be
   replacements for earlier tied frets especially for the earliest of
   these instruments. Is there any evidence for the use of tied frets on
   these guitars?;
   Stringing:- overwound strings were employed on early six single string
   guitars and there's some evidence to support the use of overwound on
   the lowest courses of the six course Spanish instrument. Is there any
   evidence for the use of just plain (perhaps loaded) gut strings on the
   fourth and fifth courses of these instruments?
   Martyn Hodgson

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[VIHUELA] Early six course Spanish guitaRe: fretting and stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I would be grateful for any information on two aspects of the Spanish
   six (double) course  guitar introduced there in the second half of the
   eighteenth century and which continued to be played into the
   nineteenth:
   Fretting: - as far as I'm aware all extant instruments of this type
   have fixed metal frets on the neck but, of course, some could be
   replacements for earlier tied frets especially for the earliest of
   these instruments. Is there any evidence for the use of tied frets on
   these guitars?;
   Stringing:- overwound strings were employed on early six single string
   guitars and there's some evidence to support the use of overwound on
   the lowest courses of the six course Spanish instrument. Is there any
   evidence for the use of just plain (perhaps loaded) gut strings on the
   fourth and fifth courses of these instruments?
   Martyn Hodgson

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[VIHUELA] Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - life after death....

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   Oh good -  I see it's open again for business as usual.
   So why on earth did you write in your last "As far I am
   concerned the matter is now closed."?
   Ah well - on with the motley. I'll reply and send you my
   further comments on this and your previous in due course.
   But, meanwhile, thank you for finally coming up with your
   latest revised views of what you think the instruments
   required by this MS actually were. Included in these is
   your continuing unexplained assertion that the twelve
   course instrument with seven added basses was a
   mandora which, since there's no historical evidence
   whatsoever that such an instrument ever existed, is
   particularly strange - especially whilst the known
   arch/theorboed guitar is denied any place in your
   considerations! Is this because you cannot bring yourself
   to finally accept a more obvious and rational explanation:
   that the gytarra may have been nothing more than - gulp -
   a guitar and not a lute ?...
   regards
   Martyn
   PS To  what specifically unfair comment do you refer when
   you tell of the "600 words of unpleasant personal comments
   which have nothing to do with the mandora or gallicon"? Have
   you never actually read your own postings objectively?
   But, as said before, perhaps it's all in the eye of the beholder -
   others can be our judges.
   MH
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Monday, 12 February 2018, 21:44
   Subject: MS CZ- Bm D 189 - the Last Post
   Dear Martyn
   I am sorry to have denied you the opportunity to fully reply to my
   message of 31 Jan and its various inconsistencies and
   'misrepresentations'.
   I prefer to consider my inconsistencies and "misrepresentation"s as an
   attempt to keep an open mind and examine different ideas about what we
   find in this manuscript before arriving at any tentative conclusions.
   (Incidentally the correct RISM siglum for the manuscript is CZ-Bm D
   189).
   In my final message I clearly stated â
   1. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that the "Gytarra" is a 6-course
   instrument. It may be synonymous with the 6-course mandora which Martyn
   says was common at the time. It is also clear that the section between
   the first two double bar lines on f.48v is a tuning check for the 6-
   course "Gytarra" on f.48r; the last bar shows that the open bass is
   tuned to the same note as the third course.
   2. The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass
   courses of the "Mandora" numbered 6-12 starting with G.
   3. It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very broad
   genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise
   identity is uncertain.
   4. The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the "Gytarra"; those from f.60r-
   f. 76r are for a 5-course "Mandora"; and those from f.76v-f.95r
   numbered 1-56 are probably for 5-course guitar.
   Your suggestion that we should now agree to disagree simply indicates
   that you are not willing to admit that anything you say is wrong.  A
   number of things you have said are nonsensical.
   1. The fact that the manuscript includes a piece by Losy does not
   indicate that it was copied during his life time. It could have been
   copied anytime in the 18th century, at least as late as the 1760s.
   2. Your comment -  "A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve
   courses never existed in the period covered by the dating of D- 189."
   You may not have come across another reference to such an instrument
   referred to as a "mandora" in another 18th century source but this does
   not prove that such an instrument didn't exist in Rajhrad at the time
   the manuscript was copied. It may have been quite rare.
   3. Your comment- "Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable,
   identification of the couple of works for an instrument with seven
   extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar".
   It certainly is  not a likely and reasonable identification  â there
   are all sorts of other instruments which it might have been. It
   certainly doesn't prove that it was figure-of-eight shaped.
   4. Your comment - "Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f.
   69v) for Mandora 1 and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the
   composer preferred this particular piece with these instruments this
   way or maybe they didn't have two guitars available? "
   No, you obviously don't know - The parts are labelled in that way to
   indicate that the two pieces are to be played as a duet rather than as
   separate pieces for a single mandora. Your suggestion that they didn't
   have two guita

[VIHUELA] Re: Regarding: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - weathering the storm!

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   That's a shame since, due to all these baroque
   manoeuvrings around the mandora and gytarra, we've
   never actually got round to properly considering the
   original issue I raised!  This, you may recall, was
   whether the widespread use in the seventeenth century
   of the high octave on the bass (thumb) side of a guitar
   octave pair actually continued to be the general practice
   in the eighteenth century - especially in German
   speaking and Nordic lands (for example, in works by
   Diesel, say, as well as pieces contained in D-189).
   Your earlier postings have been carefully perused but,
   unfortunately, are sometimes contradictory over the
   particular central matter of what instruments you now
   believe are required for the pieces in this MS.
   Accordingly I had thought that, because of these
   previous inconsistencies, you'd welcome an opportunity
   to make a final and unequivocal statement as to your
   latest position. Clearly, without knowing precisely what
   this now is, it's simply not possible to make further
   headway. So, perhaps, drawing a line may be
   appropriate - though I do feel rather denied the
   opportunity to fully reply to yours of 31 Jan and its
   various inconsistencies and 'misrepresentations'.
   Nevertheless, as I first suggested quite a few postings
   ago, let's therefore now agree to disagree...
   Finally, I'm a bit taken aback about 'bullying' since, to
   be quite frank, I felt very much the one on the receiving
   end!  Indeed, I've generally aimed to maintain polite
   exchanges where possible.  Ah well, perhaps it's all in
   the eye of the beholder - others can be our judges.
   regards,
   Martyn
   PS. Sorry - but, to quickly pre-empt another red herring in
   the offing, I'm obliged to mention that the mandore and
   the mandora are actually two entirely different instruments...
   
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   To: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 11:34
   Subject: Re: MS CZ- Bm D 189
   Dear Martyn
   If you had taken the trouble to read the message that I sent to the
   Vihuela
   list on 31st January you would know what my conclusions about this
   manuscript were. There is no need for me to clarify my position
   further
   and I do not believe you are interested in composing a constructive
   reply.
   It seems that all you are interested in is bullying someone who
   disagrees with you by misrepresenting what they have said and by
   posting offensive personal comments about them to as many people as
   you
   can.
   As far I am concerned the matter is now closed.
   Monica
   

   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 10/02/2018 10:07
   To: "[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Baroque Lute
   List"
   <[4]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
- a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica,
   Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply
   scroll down to find it..
   Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would
   you now please  simply and, is it too much to hope, politely
   answer the direct question put to you.  As carefully explained,
   this will provide you with the opportunity to properly clarify
   your precise position over the instruments required for the
   pieces in this MS and will then enable a constructive reply to
   be composed.
Here's the relevant question again:
'- as I understand it from what you have earlier written, your
   position is that the vast majority (about 98%) of  the some 124
   works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six course
   gytarra and that just three are for a mandora (according to
   you a twelve course instrument with five fingered courses and
   seven free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven
   unstopped basses" )'
Is this still a correct statement of your position?
regards
Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
   lute family instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such
   messages are therefore entirely relevant on that list.  If the
   mandora were a guitar I wouldn't.

   =
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ.
   Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Martyn
   The message which you have attached below is

[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 10:07
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica,
   Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down
   to find it..
   Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now
   please
   simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct question
   put to you.
   As carefully explained, this will provide you with the opportunity to
   properly
   clarify your precise position over the instruments required for the
   pieces in this
   MS and will then enable a constructive reply to be composed.
   Here's the relevant question again:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position
   is that the vast
   majority (about 98%) of  the some 124 works for plucked instruments in
   this MS
   are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora
   (according to
   you a twelve course instrument with  five fingered courses and
   seven free
   basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
   Is this still a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   family
   instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such messages are
   therefore
   entirely relevant on that list.  If the mandora were a guitar I
   wouldn't.
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Martyn
   The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
   sent to the Vihuela List  on the 31st January.
   I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT
   CAREFULLY.  It is the second down below your latest message.
   Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say
   about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking
   about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.
   Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I
   received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't
   think that anyone on that list  interested in anything you have to
   say.  I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit
   to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.
   As ever
   Monica
   ==
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 09/02/2018 16:43
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a
   fresh tack! 2
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
   VihuelaList
 <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[8]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
 Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack!
   2
Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to
   enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now
   confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required
   for the pieces in this MS.
   In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
 '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
 Is this a correct statement of your position?
 regards
 Martyn
 PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
   lute   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!

   =
 - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[9]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[12]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 S

[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
   Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to enable
   me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm
   precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for the
   pieces in this MS.  In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that
   the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" )'
   Is this a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!
   ===
   ==
   ----- Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by
   saying that you 'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore took
   this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner,
I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
   However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of
   Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora
   stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not
   a fiendish plot of any kind!  But on
with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases
 and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required:
   one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder
   requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I
   was at pains to point out earlier,
any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a
   low sixth where suitable in the
guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able
   to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional
free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in the
   usual register and, whilst we've
not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course
   numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces
   (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way
through the piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no
evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you
   favour such a  wide range of dates
   since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, o

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,
   I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at
   your wild reaction (below) to my  calm email yesterday in which I had
   carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present a
   different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational manner
   - 'a fresh tack'..
   I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately sent
   to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of
   yesterday.  As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else
   that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this email
   "As you now know" 
   I have already explained that reading our previous communications has
   so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I
   disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them!  In fact yesterday
   I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below)  "Our
   exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each
   other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any  progress,
   another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and  closer
   related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence."
   All the quotations I used from you are from your open public mailings
   to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps you
   changed your mind subsequently.
   Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these exchanges
   and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal abuse"
   directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in
   part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.
   It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any
   of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I
   have said in them.
   I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his
   messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he
   is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.
   Watch this space!
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 29/01/2018 17:16
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!
   - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going
   to   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might
   soon
 expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
 piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
 awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.

   ---

 Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
 generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
 there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can  find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not
   a   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..

   ---

 Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
 each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
 progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps
   and   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and
   source   evidence.
Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
   - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
 that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
 instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument
   with
 five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
 mandora has seven unstopped basses" );

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

[Martyn Hodgson]

   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   ---
   --
   2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
   Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified
   made between 1688 and 1780 (most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La
   mandora au XVIII siecle): the vast majority (97%) of these are six
   course instruments but a couple have more courses - one is 8 course and
   one 9 course . These two are both later eighteenth century and thus too
   late to be the sort of instruments originally employed for D-189.
   Extant instruments also well reflect contemporary iconography showing
   the overwhelming predominance of the six course mandora; and similarly
   with extant tablatures - though a very few do contain some pieces for 8
   or 9 course mandora (such as Univerzitna Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092
   which contains galant/classical music c.17

[VIHUELA] Re: Even more to yet moRe: re. Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Sunday, 14 January 2018, 16:35
   Subject: Even more to yet more: re. Moravsky Manuscript AND five course
   guitar stringing
   Dear Monica,
   =
   I've thought long and hard over whether to reply to yours below - my
   initial reaction was to leave it since life's really too short to spend
   much time trying to inform when a mind is effectively closed -correctly
   or not.  However, on reflection, and with the benefit of a few private
   communications, it's now thought best to politely, but firmly, respond
   and, yet again, point out the various inaccuracies, misreadings,
   misunderstandings and bias presented by your earlier partial responses
   and to politely point out that a careful reading of the evidence leads
   to different conclusions from those you have decided to prejudicially
   adopt.
   =
   In fact, I would normally respond by firstly thanking the sender for
   their contribution but, sadly, this cannot be the case with yours of 7
   Jan since you seem determined to avoid examining, and thus properly
   responding to, the detailed evidence I put before you about this MS,
   and simply continue to maintain some predetermined and procrustean
   position, which you've previously settled on, and to refuse any
   meaningful discussion of the historical evidence. Perhaps, dear Monica,
   you might also consider reading the threads with rather more care and
   less hurry, rather than impulsively dashing off hasty, partial and
   curtailed Trumpesque responses. This may also be linked to some sort of
   self-elected role as arbiter of political correctness in the early
   guitar field which, as with all such personalised promotions, can
   unwittingly result in an unwillingness to properly address contrary
   views and to crudely disparage any which are not entirely the same as
   your own  (. 'You seem to be so muddled that it is difficult to
   grasp what you actually mean'..).
   =
   But, as you will recall, we've been here before (and only a year ago -
   though in a different forum) so I suppose this strange method of
   conducting, what should normally surely be, a reasonably scholarly
   debate ought to come as no surprise to us.  What is more worrying,
   however, is that the experience of the earlier sorry exchange does not
   seem to have resulted in any modification subsequently. In particular,
   dear Monica, the use of these online fora as a sort of early guitar
   'Twittersphere'  (complete with bizarre Trump-like pronouncements,
   including: similar failures to properly consider evidence presented by
   others ('fake news'); similar tendencies to abruptly curtail debate;
   and even unexpected personal disparagement) really does make it
   extraordinarily difficult to engage in much rational discourse. You
   will no doubt be aware that some scholars and players are no longer
   willing to freely express their considered and thoughtful views in
   these online fora because of concern at being subject to what they
   consider as biased, partial and ill-founded representations of their
   opinions.
   =
   As expressed before, I have much admiration for some of the work you've
   done on the early guitar (especially the five course instrument) over
   the years  and the generosity with which you dispense advice to
   novices. Further as you know, our views do, amazingly enough, coincide
   in a number of important areas (for example, over the stringing of the
   seventeenth century instrument) but all this should not deflect any of
   us from politely questioning any mistaken conclusions you, me, or any
   other, put forward from time to time - provided this is based on a
   careful consideration of the evidence and what is actually being said.
   =
   Accordingly, I shall now once again revisit the earlier exchanges and
   try to briefly summarise the principal issues  (covered in fuller, if
   tedious, detail in my earlier emails and yours which are also copied
   below for convenience of all) which still require proper consideration
   rather than a brusque you are 'simply wrong' - but with no proper
   explanation!:
   =
   1. Tuning chart on f.48v: The basic tuning checks ('Accordo Gytarra et
   Mandora') given between the first double bar lines are for a five
   course guitar and for a six course mandora (the sixth course being but
   a tone below the fifth as here was quite common on the mandora in this
   period). This is all explained in more detail in my mailings below.
   =
   2. The tuning for an extended bass 12 course instrument refers to a
   guitar, which, of course, is known in an extended bass configuration
   from the seventeenth century - the rare multi-course mandora is only
   f

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "dshos...@mac.com"
   <dshos...@mac.com>
   Cc: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 11:33
   Subject: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
   Dear Monica,
   Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum
   We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly
   in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth
   (and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting
   something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early
   guitar.ning?) around this time.  I was especially interested in the
   stated link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and
   possible implications for placement of the high octave strings on the
   fourth (and fifth?) course.
   This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and
   the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course
   instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba
   pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five
   course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'.
   Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora'
   which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical
   tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e.   Especially note
   that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the
   extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing
   indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can
   be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what
   arrangement for bass stringing..
   This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course
   (presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not
   entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated
   by numbers 6 through to 12):  g,  f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or
   b(Bb), a.  However only the first musical example employs these
   additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to
   fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to
   illustrate the practice.
   Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in
   texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works
   attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel.
   It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as
   general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the
   music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass
   side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I
   wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie
   early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the
   5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side.
   This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works
   [1]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicology_Toda
   y-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s
   77-95.pdf
   Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course
   guitar
   The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side
   of the five course are all eighteenth century:  principally
   Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed
   guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic
   sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into
   the eighteenth century ..
   The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka
   Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some
   circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc -
   conversely it can also do exactly the opposite!  My view is that for
   much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from
   a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the
   instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and
   bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass
   string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the
   'bass' side of the guitar
   This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy'
   guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the
   mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this
   arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style
   and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a
   subjective judgement...
   Martyn
 

[VIHUELA] Re: Notation software recommendations

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Jocelyn,
   One of the difficulties I personally find with these typesetting
   softwares is the length of time it takes to actually input the music
   (either staff notation or tablature), and I generally simply write out
   (staff notation) parts for the ensemble - often full/short scores or
   individual parts where necessary.
   So, as a relative newcomer to these, I'd be grateful for your personal
   feedback on how you find the time compares between inputting (via
   PC/laptop keyboard) and writing out the part(s) by hand?
   regards
   MH
 __

   From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" 
   To: Ralf Mattes 
   Cc: Vihuelalist 
   Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 1:57
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Notation software recommendations
   Thanks again, Ralf!
   I hope you don't mind if I forwarded your tablature tuning answer to
   John Griffiths, who is also working on the same sort of project with a
   singer. He downloaded MuseScore and had the same question. I think he
   is also happy to find out about this software.
   Jocelyn
   
   From: Ralf Mattes <[1]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
   Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 12:36 PM
   To: Nelson, Jocelyn
   Cc: Vihuelalist
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Re=3A?=_=5BVIHUELA=5D?=_Re=3A?=
   _Re=3D3A=3F=3D=5F=3D5BVIHUELA=3D5D=3F=3D?= Notation software
   recommendations=3D3F=3F=3D?=
   Am Dienstag, 25. Juli 2017 17:04 CEST, "Nelson, Jocelyn"
   <[2]nels...@ecu.edu> schrieb:
   > Thanks so much, Ralf. I tried your advice and the tablature is just
   the way I want it now.
   > I'm sticking with this program because it's free and relatively easy;
   And it's actually Oen Source and Free Software. Even better.
   > at least I've figured it out and I'm almost done transcribing the
   first song. I just ordered a numeric
   > keypad for my laptop to make the tab entry faster.
   Depending on how your brain is wired, you might not even need the
   numeric keypad - even with italian tab
   MuseScore accepts letters to enter tab.
   Another secret speed entry trick of mine: get a cheap midi keyboard,
   preferably with a few buttons (often
   called "drum pads") and assign note value selection to those buttons.
   Together with a cheap (~ 15$) food pedal
   attached to the midi keyboard (I use this to advance to the next chord
   in "manual real time input mode") this
   makes for super-fast tab writing. Just one hint: the note->tab
   postition algorythm seems to work best when you
   enter the notes of a chord from top to bottom (that's something I had
   to get usesd to).
   It's also a good idea to read the printed manual "Mastering MuseScore",
   it's writen by one of the main
   developers and that way you can support further develop,ment. Or even
   better: get your library to by
   copy. Even so a lot of the Tab features are newer than the printed book
   (the curse of fast open source
   development) there are a lot of great time savers to be found.
   > Your many details below are greatly appreciated.
   You're wellcome.
   > And many thanks to everyone else on this list. Some of these
   recommended programs are beautiful and I would like to explore them in
   the future.
   >
   > Best wishes and happy transcribing to all,
   > Jocelyn
   Thanks, same to you,
   Ralf Mattes
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   Visible links
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   2. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu
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[VIHUELA] Re: Vihuela technique: dos dedos and dedillo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you Matthew,
   Yes, I'd seen Robert Barto's exploration of the technique and also the
   video close up he posted in 2016 using dedillo. In fact, it was this
   single course finger 'strummimng' sort of technique which I'd also,
   with mixed success, been trying to use and which led me to consider
   other ways of index finger only plucking.
   The use of the index finger, steadied by the thumb, also seems to me to
   be, perhaps, related to the earlier plectrum technique where the
   movement is principally from the wrist rather than the finger alone
   (and indeed close to thumb-under play). Further, dedillo only seems to
   be used with single line running passages where thumb use is not
   required. Accordingly I thought that using a wrist action (and
   index/thumb plectrum) might have rather firmer historical roots - but,
   of course, all mere speculation since, as far as I can see, the Old
   Ones tell us little of the minutae of the dedillo stroke.
   MH
 __

   From: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
   To: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Cc: Lute List <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Vihuela Dmth
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 10 July 2017, 9:45
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Vihuela technique: dos dedos and dedillo
   You might want to check Robert Barto's articles in the LSA Quarterly
   and his recent workshops on dedillo.
   Best,
   Matthew
   > On Jul 9, 2017, at 17:04, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   >
   >  Reading the English language summary (in Lute News 117) of the early
   >  journals of the Sociedad de la Vihuela 'Hispanica Lyra',  I was
   >  again struck by the different right hand plucking techniques
   evidently
   >  reasonably common and widespread in sixteenth century Spain.
   >  Principally the use of two right hand digits (either the first and
   >  second fingers or the thumb and first finger) ie dos dedos; or the
   use
   >  of just the index finger to strike the string ie dedillo.
   >  Over the years I have, unsucessfully, tried to use a sort of free
   >  stroke dedillo  (similar the index finger strumming but just on one
   >  course) but find it very tricky to control the stroke especially on
   >  runs across different courses. I recently tried steadying the index
   >  with the thumb and this seems to work a lot better  - much increased
   >  control and accuracy. Indeed, the position is not dissimilar to
   holding
   >  a plectrum between the thumb and first finger - but without actually
   >  having a plectrum which place is taken by the index finger.
   >  I seem to recall that this technique of steadfying the index with
   the
   >  thumb when playing dedillo was mentioned in some other modern
   journal
   >  and would be grateful for a reference - or my memory may be playing
   me
   >  false!
   >  Martyn
   >
   >  --
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Vihuela technique: dos dedos and dedillo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Reading the English language summary (in Lute News 117) of the early
   journals of the Sociedad de la Vihuela 'Hispanica Lyra',  I was
   again struck by the different right hand plucking techniques evidently
   reasonably common and widespread in sixteenth century Spain.
   Principally the use of two right hand digits (either the first and
   second fingers or the thumb and first finger) ie dos dedos; or the use
   of just the index finger to strike the string ie dedillo.
   Over the years I have, unsucessfully, tried to use a sort of free
   stroke dedillo  (similar the index finger strumming but just on one
   course) but find it very tricky to control the stroke especially on
   runs across different courses. I recently tried steadying the index
   with the thumb and this seems to work a lot better  - much increased
   control and accuracy. Indeed, the position is not dissimilar to holding
   a plectrum between the thumb and first finger - but without actually
   having a plectrum which place is taken by the index finger.
   I seem to recall that this technique of steadfying the index with the
   thumb when playing dedillo was mentioned in some other modern journal
   and would be grateful for a reference - or my memory may be playing me
   false!
   Martyn

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[VIHUELA] Re: Diesel

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Stuart,
   There appears to be no contemporaneous evidence of precisely how Diesel
   strung his guitar. From consideration of the music, voice leading,
   period of composition etc, I believe Diesel used a mandora like
   stringing -  ie octaves on the fourth and fifths but with the low bass
   on the thumb side (ie not as earlier forms of 5 course guitar where the
   lowest string of the fourth (and sometimes fifth) course is the upper
   octave.).
   Some further justification for this arrangement of basses is given by a
   slightly earlier MS CZ -Brn MsD189 (c. 1730)  which gives the tuning
   for the Callezono (gallichon aka mandora) and contains music for viola
   da gamba (I think) in staff notation and later (f.48) a page headed
   'Fundamenta Chytarra' and on its reverse a tuning table headed '
   Accordo Chytarra et Mandora'. Much of the music is for 5 course with
   just the occasional sixth course tuned just a tone lower than the fifth
   (ie as also used by Scheidler for his guitar sonatas at the end of the
   century and for much mandora music)
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: WALSH STUART 
   To: Eduard Agullo ; Vihuela List
   
   Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2016, 11:46
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Diesel
   >The Royal Library of Copenhagen has made available finally this
   little
   >known repertoire:
   >
   >
   [1][1]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.h
   tml
   >
   >[2]En Samling Tabulaturer for Guitar, mest af Nathanael ...
   >www.kb.dk
   >En Samling Tabulaturer for Guitar, mest af Nathanael Diesel (GKS
   377
   >folio)
   >
   >Let us hope that Diesel will be more appreciated and performed now
   !
   >
   >Eduard V. Agullà ³
   Lots of music! (But not guitar music in 5 and 6).
   What is the most likely stringing arrangement for this guitar music?
   Low A?
   Stuart
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1.
   [2]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   >2.
   [3]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [5]https://www.avast.com/antivirus

   --

References

   1. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   2. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   3. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[VIHUELA] Re: Diesel

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Sorry, I sent you the full search link - here is the direct link
   [1]Prinsesse Charlotte Amalies nodesamling

Prinsesse Charlotte Amalies nodesamling

   Martyn
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Eduard Agullo <eduagu...@hotmail.com>; Vihuela List
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2016, 10:00
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Diesel
   Dear Eduard,
   Thanks for this: my ancient photocopies (half size!) have become
   increasingly difficult to read so this is welcome. A useful summary of
   these books was presented by David Lyons' paper in the 1975 JLSA  '
   Nathanael Diesel, guitar tutor to a royal lady'. The lady being his
   pupil Princess Charlotte Amalie of Denmark.
   There are duplicates of some pieces in the various books but I'm
   unaware of a complete list of concordances etc. Lyons did helpfully
   summarise the contents of each book - GKS 377 (20 books) and NKS 110
   (14 books). But he seemed unaware of GKS 1879 - the paper by Kristian
   Buhl-Mortensen 'Princess Charlotte Amalie's Music Collection' describes
   some of this as well as the other MSs.  Link here
   [2]https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte
   =1C1AOHY_enGB708GB708=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte=chr
   ome..69i57.28642j0j7=chrome=UTF-8#q=Kristian+Buhl-Mortensen
   +Princess+Charlotte+Amalie%27s+Music+Collection+
   Martyn.
 __

   From: Eduard Agullo <eduagu...@hotmail.com>
   To: Vihuela List <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2016, 19:06
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Diesel
 The Royal Library of Copenhagen has made available finally this
   little
 known repertoire:

   [1][3]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.h
   tml
 [2]En Samling Tabulaturer for Guitar, mest af Nathanael ...
 www.kb.dk
 En Samling Tabulaturer for Guitar, mest af Nathanael Diesel (GKS 377
 folio)
 Let us hope that Diesel will be more appreciated and performed now !
 Eduard V. Agulló
 --
   References
 1.
   [4]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
 2.
   [5]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   Visible links
   1. http://buhl-mortensen.dk/fibiger.html
   2. 
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte=1C1AOHY_enGB708GB708=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte=chrome..69i57.28642j0j7=chrome=UTF-8#q=Kristian+Buhl-Mortensen+Princess+Charlotte+Amalie's+Music+Collection+
   3. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   4. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   5. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Hidden links:
   8. http://buhl-mortensen.dk/fibiger.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Diesel

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Eduard,
   Thanks for this: my ancient photocopies (half size!) have become
   increasingly difficult to read so this is welcome. A useful summary of
   these books was presented by David Lyons' paper in the 1975 JLSA  '
   Nathanael Diesel, guitar tutor to a royal lady'. The lady being his
   pupil Princess Charlotte Amalie of Denmark.
   There are duplicates of some pieces in the various books but I'm
   unaware of a complete list of concordances etc. Lyons did helpfully
   summarise the contents of each book - GKS 377 (20 books) and NKS 110
   (14 books). But he seemed unaware of GKS 1879 - the paper by Kristian
   Buhl-Mortensen 'Princess Charlotte Amalie's Music Collection' describes
   some of this as well as the other MSs.  Link here
   [1]https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte
   =1C1AOHY_enGB708GB708=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte=chr
   ome..69i57.28642j0j7=chrome=UTF-8#q=Kristian+Buhl-Mortensen
   +Princess+Charlotte+Amalie%27s+Music+Collection+
   Martyn.
 __

   From: Eduard Agullo 
   To: Vihuela List 
   Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2016, 19:06
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Diesel
 The Royal Library of Copenhagen has made available finally this
   little
 known repertoire:

   [1][2]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.h
   tml
 [2]En Samling Tabulaturer for Guitar, mest af Nathanael ...
 www.kb.dk
 En Samling Tabulaturer for Guitar, mest af Nathanael Diesel (GKS 377
 folio)
 Let us hope that Diesel will be more appreciated and performed now !
 Eduard V. Agulló
 --
   References
 1.
   [3]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
 2.
   [4]http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. 
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte=1C1AOHY_enGB708GB708=Buhl-Moprtensen+Princess+Charlotte=chrome..69i57.28642j0j7=chrome=UTF-8#q=Kristian+Buhl-Mortensen+Princess+Charlotte+Amalie's+Music+Collection+
   2. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   3. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   4. http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/gks377.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Donald Gill's arrangements for 4-course guitaRe: Corrente by Foscarini

[Martyn Hodgson]

   There are more of such in Donald's recent kind donation to the Lute
   Soc. He was v keen on transcribing stuff for small guitars and
   mandores. Jil Segerman has just completed an inventory
   rgds
   M
 __

   From: WALSH STUART 
   To: Vihuelalist 
   Sent: Friday, 13 May 2016, 10:53
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Donald Gill's arrangements for 4-course guitaRe:
   Corrente by Foscarini
   Ages ago, when the Lute Society published sheets of music because lute
   music was not easily available, Donald Gill made some arrangements for
   4-course guitar from 5-course music of the 17th century.
   Here is a little Corrente. As it is from a Foscarini tab, it's not just
   an arrangement but a(n)  hermeneutic reconstruction!
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYvZ25nyCw
   Stuart
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYvZ25nyCw
   2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Indeed . But I'm referring to the many other papers presented at the
   'Summits'  which, I'm told, are not usually published or otherwise made
   generally available.
 __

   From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2014, 14:01
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
   As I understand it, the (9!) guitar related articles in Early Music
   41/4 and
   42/1 were all reviewed by outside readers.
   -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
   Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Namens
   Martyn Hodgson
   Verzonden: woensdag 25 juni 2014 10:59
   Aan: Monica Hall; Braig, Eugene
   CC: Vihuelalist
   Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
 Well yes... though if papers are presented, but not disseminated
   by
 the 'Summit' and/or are not peer reviewed is there not the problem
 (alas too common) of mere speculation being transformed into
   generally
 accepted fact?
 Martyn
   __
 From: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 To: Braig, Eugene [4]brai...@osu.edu
 Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2014, 7:08
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
 That sums it up very nicely.  Both the list and the Lake Konstanz
 meeting
 were opportunities for guitar enthusiasts to get together to discuss
 their
 interests.  No need for any peer reviewing or the like.
 Monica
 - Original Message -
 From: Braig, Eugene [1][6]brai...@osu.edu
 To: Vihuela Dmth [2][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:01 PM
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
  The word  s u b s c r i b e r  ended up robot flagging my last
   note
 for
  redirection.  Here it is again with the offending word deleted.
 
  E
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Braig, Eugene
  Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 4:59 PM
  To: Vihuela Dmth
  Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
 
  I think more people are reading more into this thing than they
 should.
  While many contributors coincide, the Lake Konstanz Guitar Research
  Meeting operated independently of the Topica Guitar Summit.  You
   can
 see a
  concise summary of what the Lake Konstanz/Constance meeting is at
   the
  bottom this GFA page:
   [3][8]http://www.guitarfoundation.org/?ArchForums
 . . . as
  well as the organizers' own Facebook group:
  [4][9]https://www.facebook.com/groups/131072740286508/. I've never
 managed to
  attend the Lake Konstanz meeting in person.
 
  The Guitar Summit was a discussion forum (not unlike the present
 suite
  of Dartmouth lute lists) that was hosted by Topica beginning in
   2007.
  However, it went through earlier incarnations hosted by a couple
 different
  online services (most notably as the Classical Guitar History
   List)
 that
  slightly predate the first Lake Konstanz meeting.  I have been a
 spotty
  contributor to each iteration of the discussion fora/listservs
   since
 2005.
  When I was active there, there was a great deal of discussion
 centered on
  transitional periods at either end of the 19th c.  Yes, Matanya
   Ophee
  served as an organizing hub for these listservs; his contributions
   to
 and
  prominent voice in this particular arena are hard to deny, whatever
 your
  opinion of them are.  Still, at its core, the summit was really
 only a
  listserv of guitar geeks (like me), scholars, and professional
 performers
  who liked to ask interesting questions of a collective body of
 knowledge
  (I tended to do more asking than ans!
  wering).
 
  Best,
  Eugene
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [5][10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [mailto:[6][11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
  Behalf Of jelmaa
  Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:43 PM
  To: Martyn Hodgson
  Cc: Vihuela Dmth
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
 
  Hi Martin and others,
 
  No, the papers are not peer reviewed and not published by the
 organizers,
  but I know many of them end up in journals later through the
   efforts
 of
  the individual researchers. A list of speakers and subjects is
 published
  though (I believe). You should really contact Andreas about that if
 you
  want to know more.
 
  Best, Jelma
 
 
  On Jun 24, 2014, at 17:26 , Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 
   Thank you Jelma.
   Do you know if this 'Summit' ever publish any of these papers or
 are
   they available as downloads? Were they peer reviewed?
   regards
   Martyn

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you Jelma.
   Do you know if this 'Summit' ever publish any of these papers or are
   they available as downloads? Were they peer reviewed?
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Jelma van Amersfoort jel...@gmail.com
   To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   Cc: Vihuela Dmth vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 24 June 2014, 11:31
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
 Dear all,
 A
 Lake Konstanz is a bi-annual international conference on
 guitar-related research, historical and otherwise. It was established
 in 2007 by Gerhard Penn and Andreas Stevens.A The next meeting is in
 2015.
 A
 I was there last year and presented a paper on guitar songs by the
 composer Pauline Duchambge (1776-1858). There were speakers from many
 different countries and backgrounds, it was quite interesting and
   fun.
 As Lex Eisenhardt mentioned, four or five of the people who recently
 published in Early Music were there as well, and Matanya Ophee too.
 A
 If any of you want to present or just listen it is best to approach
 Andreas or Gerhard with a proposal. They are quite keen to involve
   more
 researchers. I believe there is no website, but there is a rather
 active facebook page.
 ([1][1]https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/131072740286508/)
 A
 Best, Jelma van Amersfoort
 A
 A
 On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Lex Eisenhardt
 [2][2]eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
   Some of you may have seen the 'guitar issues' of Early Music (41/4
   A and
   42/1). Some of the authors lectured at the 'Lake Konstanz' (Summit)
   meetings.
   -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
   Van: [3][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[4][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens
   WALSH STUART
   Verzonden: dinsdag 24 juni 2014 11:54
   Aan: Martyn Hodgson; Vihuela Dmth
   Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
 On 24/06/2014 09:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
  A  A  - Forwarded Message -
  A  A  From: Martyn Hodgson [5][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  A  A  To: Monica Hall [6][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  A  A  Sent: Tuesday, 24 June 2014, 7:26
  A  A  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
  A  A  Thanks for this.
  A  A  I was intrigued by the use of the word 'summit' which implied
 some
 sort
  A  A  of self-proclaimed central authority!
 I think that would be about right. Surrounded by worshippers.
  But from what you write, it seems
  A  A  to be/have been more of a social event
  A  A  Martyn
  A  A  A
 __
 
  A  A  From: Monica Hall [7][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  A  A  To: Martyn Hodgson [8][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  A  A  Cc: Vihuelalist [9][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  A  A  Sent: Monday, 23 June 2014, 19:29
  A  A  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
  A  A  Well it was started a few years ago under the auspices of
 Matanya
  A  A  Ophee.
  A  A  Most of the people on it were continental - i.e. from
   Germany,
 and
 such
  A  A  like
  A  A  places. A They hold/held a summit meeting in Switzerland
   every
 two
  A  A  years.
  A  A  The last one was in 2012 I think.
  A  A  There used to be a discussion list but messages I have sent
 have not
  A  A  got
  A  A  through and I haven't received any for ages.
  A  A  Monica
  A  A  - Original Message -
  A  A  From: Martyn Hodgson [1][10][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  A  A  To: Monica Hall [2][11][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk;
   Vihuelalist
  A  A  [3][12][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  A  A  Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 6:37 PM
  A  A  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar Summit
  A  A   A To be frank Monica, I've never heard of it! A What is/was
 it
 supposed
  A  A  to
  A  A   A do?
  A  A   A Martyn
  A  A  
 __
  A  A  
  A  A   A From: Monica Hall [4][13][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  A  A   A To: Vihuelalist [5][14][14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  A  A   A Sent: Monday, 23 June 2014, 15:30
  A  A   A Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar Summit
  A  A   A  A I just wondered whether anyone else on this list is on
 the Guitar
  A  A   A  A Summit list and if so whether they ever get any
 messages. A I
  A  A  haven't
  A  A   A  A had any for months and was wondering whether it is
 defunct or
  A  A  whether
  A  A   A I
  A  A   A  A have been struck off!
  A  A   A  A Thanks to all
  A  A   A  A Monica
  A  A   A  A --
  A  A   A To get on or off this list see list information at
  A  A  
 A
   [1][6][15][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin

[VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Yes it is interesting. But it's surely not a 'very large' instrument:
   in fact, it looks relatively smaller than the picture of a vihuela
   played by Orpheus in Milan's collection.  Perhaps you mean it's bigger
   than most vihuelas played nowadays - but isn't that perhaps because of
   a modern belief that the instrument was generally in G at A440!...
   regards,
   Martyn
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 9:41
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   Wow!  If you go on YouTube and put in Julian Bream + Santiago de Murcia
   you
   will find a video of him playing the Preludio and allegro from
   Passacalles y
   obras!  It is a very large instrument strung with octaves on the 4th
   and
   5th courses.with a very imposing sound.
   Interesting indeed.
   It seems that Segovia included this piece too in vol. 3 of his Obras de
   guitarra series.
   Amazing what you can find on the internet.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 4:56 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
Bream's de Murcia was recorded on a 1983 baroque guitar by Jose
Romanillos.
   
Best,
Eugene
   

From: Monica Hall [[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 4:20 PM
To: Braig, Eugene
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN
   0-9618527-1-2
   
Please do - that would be helpful!
Monica
   
- Original Message -
From: Braig, Eugene [5]brai...@osu.edu
To: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 9:16 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   
   
Bream's recording actually did use a 5-course guitar (I can check
   the
exact phrasing in the liner notes when home from the office), but he
certainly favored a modern functionality when dabbling in early
instruments.
   
Best,
Eugene
   
   
-Original Message-
From: Monica Hall [mailto:[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 4:08 PM
To: Braig, Eugene
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN
   0-9618527-1-2
   
That's helpful.  I have just realized that Harvey Hope recorded 4
   pieces
by
Murcia in 1979to .  He and James Tyler play baroque instruments
   but
Segovia and Bream presumably clasical guitar.  I am sure there must
   be
more.
   
Monica
   
- Original Message -
From: Braig, Eugene [8]brai...@osu.edu
To: Vihuelalist [9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:33 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   
   
   I used to be on the guitar summit list, but I haven't looked in on
   their
   activity for years.  I'm not certain where to find them any longer .
   . .
   or, as you've alluded, if they even still exist.
   
Regarding pre-1987 recordings of de Murcia's music, I am aware of:
- Andres Segovia on modern guitar (Prelude and Allegro: 1977);
- James Tyler on 5-course guitar (Preludio, Gabota, and La
   Burlesca:
1978); and
- Julian Bream on 5-course guitar (Prelude and Allegro: 1985).
   
I would expect there are more, but these are the ones I have
   immediately
on hand in the day-job office.
   
Some modern-guitar characters with related interests and whom you
   might
want to try contacting directly (several of whom were active on the
summit
list): Matanya Ophee, Stanley Yates, Carlos Perez (and his teacher,
Ernesto Quezada), and maybe Oleg Timofeyev.
   
Luck,
Eugene
   
   
   
   
-Original Message-
From: [10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 3:06 PM
To: Azalais
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   
I have Lorimer's facsimile.  What I am really trying to find out is
whether
there were any recordings of Murcia's music made before 1987 and
   also
whether any arrangements of it for classical guitar were published
before
that date.  The date 1987 is crucial because that is when Lorimer's
facsimile of the Saldivar ms. was published and Murcia suddenly
   became
flavour of the month big time.Several people including myself
   did
dissertations on him in the late 70s-early 80s and Robert Strizich
refers
to him in his article on ornamentation in the LSA journal of 1974.
   

[VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Indeed Eugene. But aren't we looking at early vihuelas here rather than
   later 5 course guitars. Hence my reference to the Milan engraving which
   shows a 'large' sized instrument (tho' to be fair, some other
   iconography - all pretty crude stuff - does show smaller instruments
   which _may_ be vihuelas too).
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall
   mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 12:59
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   Ah, yes.  I believe that video is excerpted from Bream's little BBC
   series Guitarra!
   The size of the instrument also looks in line to me with that of other
   18th-c. Spanish guitars.  I've personally inspected this fine piece by
   Jose Massague, e.g.
   [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/503390?r
   pp pg=1rndkey 140513ao=onft=*what=Musical+instruments|Guitarspos
   Best,
   Eugene
   
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on
   behalf of Martyn Hodgson [[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 7:30 AM
   To: Monica Hall; Braig, Eugene
   Cc: Vihuelalist
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
 Yes it is interesting. But it's surely not a 'very large' instrument:
 in fact, it looks relatively smaller than the picture of a vihuela
 played by Orpheus in Milan's collection.  Perhaps you mean it's
   bigger
 than most vihuelas played nowadays - but isn't that perhaps because
   of
 a modern belief that the instrument was generally in G at A440!...
 regards,
 Martyn
   __
 From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 To: Braig, Eugene [6]brai...@osu.edu
 Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 9:41
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
 Wow!  If you go on YouTube and put in Julian Bream + Santiago de
   Murcia
 you
 will find a video of him playing the Preludio and allegro from
 Passacalles y
 obras!  It is a very large instrument strung with octaves on the 4th
 and
 5th courses.with a very imposing sound.
 Interesting indeed.
 It seems that Segovia included this piece too in vol. 3 of his Obras
   de
 guitarra series.
 Amazing what you can find on the internet.
 Monica
 - Original Message -
 From: Braig, Eugene [1][8]brai...@osu.edu
 To: Monica Hall [2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist [3][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 4:56 AM
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
  Bream's de Murcia was recorded on a 1983 baroque guitar by Jose
  Romanillos.
 
  Best,
  Eugene
 
  
  From: Monica Hall [[4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 4:20 PM
  To: Braig, Eugene
  Cc: Vihuelalist
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN
 0-9618527-1-2
 
  Please do - that would be helpful!
  Monica
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Braig, Eugene [5][12]brai...@osu.edu
  To: Vihuelalist [6][13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 9:16 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
 
 
  Bream's recording actually did use a 5-course guitar (I can check
 the
  exact phrasing in the liner notes when home from the office), but
   he
  certainly favored a modern functionality when dabbling in early
  instruments.
 
  Best,
  Eugene
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Monica Hall [mailto:[7][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 4:08 PM
  To: Braig, Eugene
  Cc: Vihuelalist
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN
 0-9618527-1-2
 
  That's helpful.  I have just realized that Harvey Hope recorded 4
 pieces
  by
  Murcia in 1979to .  He and James Tyler play baroque instruments
 but
  Segovia and Bream presumably clasical guitar.  I am sure there
   must
 be
  more.
 
  Monica
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Braig, Eugene [8][15]brai...@osu.edu
  To: Vihuelalist [9][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:33 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
 
 
 I used to be on the guitar summit list, but I haven't looked in on
 their
 activity for years.  I'm not certain where to find them any longer
   .
 . .
 or, as you've alluded

[VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Lex,
   By and large I agree!  It was simply that you seemed pretty certain
   that de Murcia expected bourdons on both fourth and fifth courses for
   his solo music that I thought you might have some evidence.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 13:39
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   It would be difficult to argue about your personal preferences, Martyn.
   And 'more common solo repertoire tunings of the period'? How about
   Guerau or
   Ribayaz, and Castillion? Better to admit that we cannot be sure about
   those
   things.
   Lex
   -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
   Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Namens
   Martyn Hodgson
   Verzonden: dinsdag 13 mei 2014 14:27
   Aan: Lex Eisenhardt; 'Vihuelalist'
   Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
 I agree with you about sizes of 5 course guitars but not about your
 preferred tuning for de Murcia's solo music: in my view it works best
 with the 'French' ('Corbetta') tuning with a bourdon only on the
   fourth
 course. By best I mean that tuning in which the various parts are
 clearest with minimal breaks in tessitura. Of course, no historic
 guitar tuning is perfect for everything and whatever tuning is
   employed
 there are going to be some such breaks but I think this is merely the
 idiosyncratic charm of the instrument.
 I think it a mistake to presume he would use the same tuning he
 employed for basso continuo for his solo music. In my view it's more
 likely he employed one of the more common solo repertoire tunings of
 the period: ie either the 'French' tuning or possibly that with just
 high octaves on the fourth and fifth courses
 Martyn
   __
 From: Lex Eisenhardt [3]eisenha...@planet.nl
 To: 'Vihuelalist' [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 12:46
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
 The corpus of original guitars (not vihuelas) is often 'very large'.
 And low
 octaves A and d seem to be an educated choice for Murcia, taking into
 account the composers' work (1714) on basso continuo.
 -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
 Van: [1][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
 Namens
 Martyn Hodgson
 Verzonden: dinsdag 13 mei 2014 13:30
 Aan: Monica Hall; Braig, Eugene
 CC: Vihuelalist
 Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   Yes it is interesting. But it's surely not a 'very large'
   instrument:
   in fact, it looks relatively smaller than the picture of a vihuela
   played by Orpheus in Milan's collection.  Perhaps you mean it's
 bigger
   than most vihuelas played nowadays - but isn't that perhaps because
 of
   a modern belief that the instrument was generally in G at A440!...
   regards,
   Martyn

   __
   From: Monica Hall [3][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Braig, Eugene [4][8]brai...@osu.edu
   Cc: Vihuelalist [5][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 9:41
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
   Wow!  If you go on YouTube and put in Julian Bream + Santiago de
 Murcia
   you
   will find a video of him playing the Preludio and allegro from
   Passacalles y
   obras!  It is a very large instrument strung with octaves on the
   4th
   and
   5th courses.with a very imposing sound.
   Interesting indeed.
   It seems that Segovia included this piece too in vol. 3 of his
   Obras
 de
   guitarra series.
   Amazing what you can find on the internet.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Braig, Eugene [1][6][10]brai...@osu.edu
   To: Monica Hall [2][7][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3][8][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 4:56 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN 0-9618527-1-2
Bream's de Murcia was recorded on a 1983 baroque guitar by Jose
Romanillos.
   
Best,
Eugene
   

From: Monica Hall [[4][9][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 4:20 PM
To: Braig, Eugene
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Lorimer's bibliography? (ISBN
   0-9618527-1-2
   
Please do - that would be helpful!
Monica
   
- Original Message -
From: Braig, Eugene [5

[VIHUELA] Re: Matteis

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you for this Lex.
   Of course here Jackson is speaking about continuo practice where the
   harmonic clash is already there in other vocal and/or instrumental
   lines.  But in the Matteis example this is a guitar solo.
   Incidentally I'm not entirely convinced by Jackson's paper (and the
   slightly selective examples) that the practice of never doubling
   dissonances in the context was generally universally applied
   historically.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   To: 'Martyn Hodgson' hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; 'Monica Hall'
   mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; 'WALSH STUART' s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 19 November 2013, 16:51
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
   For an on-line article by Roland Jackson, about all sorts of harmonic
   clashes, follow the download link
   [1]http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol11/iss1/2/
   Lex
   -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
   Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Namens
   Martyn Hodgson
   Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 10:26
   Aan: Monica Hall; WALSH STUART
   CC: Vihuelalist
   Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
 Dear Monica,
 This is all a question of context; mostly to do with expected
   cadential
 effects and the prevailing tonality of the melodic line.
 1. For example a dissonance of seconds at a cadence was a common
 practice at the time; both in orchestral writing as well as on the
 guitar etc. The effect even has a modern name: the 'Corelli clash'
 after his frequent use of it.  Typically this occurs at a cadence
   where
 the (sharp) third of the dominant (the sharpened leading note) is
 sounded concurrently with an anticipated tonic (so for a cadence
   ending
 with a G major chord an F# is sounded together with a G).  It is, in
   my
 view, important to play this effect with 'boldness and conviction'
   to
 ensure auditors don't think it's a mistake! In short, it is by no
   means
 too exotic for the period as you suppose below  ('Just talking about
 the last two bars of line three: playing the top and  bottom courses
 open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too rich for its
 surroundings').
 So the B to Em cadence at the end of the third line on page 2 of the
 1682 publication with a D# and E sounding concurrently is perfectly
 correct. I suppose you could throw in the open fifth course too (to
 give a 7th A)  but this is not really in line with general practice
   at
 that time (use of sevenths at cadences became much more common in the
 18th century).
 2. However where there is no such cadential (or similar effect)
 context, contemporary auditors would not have expected such rude
 clashes interfering with the melodic line. So, for example on the
   same
 line and 4 bars from the end, the D chord on the second beat would
   not
 have the first course added (an open e' according to Matteis' guitar
 tuning) - Matteis either overlooked this or took it as read that a
 player would not need to be told. Similarly in the 'Aria' at the
 beginning of page 4 the player should not include non-melodic notes
 (such as an open e' on the first beat of the first full bar or the
   open
 b and e' on the first beat of the next bar).  It simply requires
 careful control of the strum - perhaps some guitarists basing their
 early strumming technique on modern flamenco rasgueado may find this
 more difficult but, of course, it's no reason to believe the Old Ones
 were not technically capable/accomplished to achieve such refined
 playing.
 There's also a parallel with unwritten practice in continuo playing:-
 here sometimes a sixth cord is not figured at all - it being assumed
 that the player has sufficient knowledge of basic rules of harmony
   that
 in a particular key sequence such bass notes will generally need
   first
 inversion chords (unless otherwise indicated).
 regards,
 Martyn
 PS Incidentally, I find it easier to follow a discussion if the
 responder does not interweave their reply with the sender's text -
   but
 perhaps that's just me
   __
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol11/iss1/2/
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Matteis

[Martyn Hodgson]

Matteis intended to suggest that they represent the unusual
   dissonance
associated with Italian monody.
   
In the 'extraordinary' alternative cadence on B (on page 12)
   the
   suspended
4th is doubled on the 5th course but with the French tuning
   it
will
   be in
unison with the B on the 3rd course. The A# is given as a
   single
   note.
The chord is not to be repeated. Corbetta does this a lot.
   
In the examples in the initial section - from p8-13 he
   doesn't
seem
   to put
any dots in. On p12 - the second of the exmples labeled
Otherwise
   the 4th
and 5th courses can't possibly be included in the 1st chord
   which
is
   G# C#
F# resolving to E# although he has indicated that it should
   be
   strummed.
   
You could go on .listing all the discrepancies. I must have a
look at
Valdambrini.. How literally do you take the notation?
   
As ever
Monica
   
   
- Original Message -
From: Natasha Miles [14]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuela List [16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
   
   
 Hi Monica,
 I've been tackling similar passages for transcription
   recently.
As
   the
 printed notations offer no guarantee of being error free
   and as
   such
 inconsistencies in notation are common (see Matteis p. 29
   2nd
bar,
 where the same chord has a muted 5th course but no dot on
   the
1st
 course) I look for evidence of the fully strummed voicing
   in
use
 elsewhere and also take into account my own preferences.
   Valdambrini
 notates the clashing D sharp and open E on a number of
occasions. I
 don't have my sources to hand at the moment but I wouldn't
   be
   surprised
 to find it in Corbetta/Bartolotti/Foscarini too. A 4/3
   clash in
the
 context of a cadence is quite a common (see also the
   grating
   dissonance
 in Matteis's 'extraordinary' alternative cadence on B on
   page
12).
   All
 in all I don't find the inclusion of the open courses too
   offensive.
 Then again, I'd probably play the chord differently as it
   re-occurred.
 Maybe including the open 1st course on one occasion and
sounding
   just
 the inner courses on another depending on how dissonant I
wanted
   the
 chord to sound.
  Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:12:40 +
  To: [17]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  CC: [18]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  From: [19]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
 
  It is on p.2 at the end of the third stave.
 
  Whilst you are looking at the book could you also look at
   the
 following
  piece on p.3, the last stave. You will see that the same
phrase
 occurs
  twice. Matteis has indicated that the 4th and 5th courses
   are
to
   be
  omitted the first time (in the first full bar) with dots,
   but
the
  second time (bar 5) there are no dots!
 
 
 
  Monica
 
 
 
 
 
  - Original Message -
 
  From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
 
  To: [2]Monica Hall
 
  Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:08 PM
 
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Matteis
 
  Page no in 1682 original plse
  M
 
__
 
  From: Monica Hall [3][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  To: Vihuelalist [4][21]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2013, 15:34
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Matteis
  On p.260 of his dissertation Alex Dean has reproduced two
   passages
  from
  Matteis's False consonances.
  In his transcription of the excerpt at the top of the
   page
Dean
  proposes that the open 1st and 5th courses should be
   included
in
  all the chords in the 2nd and 3rd bars.
  Although Matteis does put dots on the lines very
   frequently
to
  indicate
  that courses should be omitted he has not done so here.
However
   he
  does not seem to me to be wholly consistent about putting
   in
the
  dots,
  about putting inas for open courses - or for that
   matter in
  indicating whether 4 part chords should be strummed.
  I wonder how many people on the list - who can be
   bothered to
   look at
  it - would include

[VIHUELA] Re: Matheo Bezon

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Monica,

   Interesting - but even more so if I could open the 'pictures' which
   give the various illustrations and examples. I've left clicked on the
   boxes and clicked 'open picture' but nothing.  Any thoughts

   regards

   Martyn

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013, 20:42
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Matheo Bezon
 I don't know if anyone is interested but there is an article about
   the
 Cancionero de Matheo Bezon in Resonance - this is the link

   [1][1]http://www.resonancejournal.org/current-issue/spr-2013/spanish-so
   ng-

   chitarra-alla-spagnola-and-the-a-bi-ci-matheo-bezon-and-his-1599-alfabe
 to-songbook/#n84
 Monica
 --
   References
 1.
   [2]http://www.resonancejournal.org/current-issue/spr-2013/spanish-song-
   chitarra-alla-spagnola-and-the-a-bi-ci-matheo-bezon-and-his-1599-alfabe
   to-songbook/#n84
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.resonancejournal.org/current-issue/spr-2013/spanish-song-
   2. 
http://www.resonancejournal.org/current-issue/spr-2013/spanish-song-chitarra-alla-spagnola-and-the-a-bi-ci-matheo-bezon-and-his-1599-alfabeto-songbook/#n84
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Pepys manuscripts

[Martyn Hodgson]

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Dear Monica,
 
Somwhere I have a photocopy of the Morelli songs from  the Cambridge Ms. 
(Magdalen College, Pepys Library (Cmc) MS 2803 - Songs, arranged for bass 
voice, guitar (in tablature), and figured bass, by Cesare Morelli for Samuel 
Pepys; ca. 1680. Bound with an edition of Pietro Reggio’s Songs (1680).)  I 
can't recall who gave it to me - it may have been you!

 
But, alas, I've spent a couple of hours looking and can't find it. I do have 
one piece from it which I did in a show ' To be or not to b'  and I've now 
scanned this and it's attached.  If the rest turns up I'll send you a copy.
 
rgds
 
Martyn


From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:39
Subject: [VIHUELA] Pepys manuscripts


  Dear Collective Wisdom



  I think there are four manuscripts of songs which have guitar
  accompaniments in tablature which belonged to Samuel Pepys.



  Has anyone ever made modern editions of any or all of these either
  published or otherwise.



  Monica

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



---1019788788-1762414116-1369227185=:13167
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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htmlbodydiv style=color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, 
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10ptdiv style=RIGHT: autoSPAN 
style=RIGHT: autoBR style=RIGHT: auto class=yui-cursor/SPAN/div
div style=RIGHT: autoSPAN style=RIGHT: autoDear Monica,/SPAN/div
div style=RIGHT: autoSPAN style=RIGHT: auto/SPANnbsp;/div
div style=BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px; RIGHT: 
autoSPAN style=RIGHT: autoSomwhere I have a photocopy of the Morelli 
songs fromnbsp;/SPANnbsp;the SPAN style=RIGHT: autoSPAN style=RIGHT: 
autoCambridge Ms.nbsp;(Magdalen College, Pepys Library (I style=RIGHT: 
autoCmc/I) /SPANMS 2803 - Songs, arranged for bass voice, guitar (in 
tablature), and figured bass, by Cesare Morelli for Samuel Pepys; Ica. 
/I1680. Bound with an edition of Pietro Reggio’s ISongs 
/I(1680).)nbsp; I can't recall who gave it to me - it may have been 
you!/div
div style=RIGHT: autonbsp;/div
div style=RIGHT: autoBut, alas, I've spent a couple of hours looking and 
can't find it. I do have one piece from it which I did in a show ' To be or not 
to b'nbsp; and I've now scanned this and it's attached.nbsp; If the rest 
turns up I'll send you a VAR id=yui-ie-cursor/VARcopy./div
div style=RIGHT: autonbsp;/div
div style=RIGHT: autorgds/div
div style=RIGHT: autonbsp;/div
div style=RIGHT: autoMartyn/div
div style=RIGHT: auto/SPANBR
BLOCKQUOTE style=BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-TOP: 5px; 
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px
DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt
DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 
12pt
DIV dir=ltr
DIV style=BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; 
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; 
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BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px class=hr contentEditable=false 
readonly=true/DIVFONT size=2 face=ArialBSPAN style=FONT-WEIGHT: 
boldFrom:/SPAN/B Monica Hall lt;mjlh...@tiscali.co.ukgt;BRBSPAN 
style=FONT-WEIGHT: boldTo:/SPAN/B Vihuelalist 
lt;vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edugt; BRBSPAN style=FONT-WEIGHT: 
boldSent:/SPAN/B Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 20:39BRBSPAN 
style=FONT-WEIGHT: boldSubject:/SPAN/B [VIHUELA] Pepys 
manuscriptsBR/FONT/DIV
DIV class=y_msg_containerBRnbsp; Dear Collective 
WisdomBRBRBRBRnbsp; I think there are four manuscripts of songs which 
have guitarBRnbsp; accompaniments in tablature which belonged to Samuel 
Pepys.BRBRBRBRnbsp; Has anyone ever made modern editions of any or all 
of these eitherBRnbsp; published or otherwise.BRBRBRBRnbsp; 
MonicaBRBRnbsp; --BRBRBRTo get on or off this list see list 
information atBRA 
href=http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html; 
target=_blankhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html/ABRBRBR/DIV/DIV/DIV/BLOCKQUOTE/div/div/body/html
---1019788788-1762414116-1369227185=:13167--
--

[VIHUELA] Re: Instrumental music with alfabeto

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Sonata di Chittarra, e Violino, con il suo Basso Continuo (from Granata
   Soavi Concenti... 1659) - mixed tablature guitar ie with alfabeto as
   well as 'Italian' tablature notation

   And, of course, the numerous books of alfabeto settings of known tunes
   (eg Ricci Scuola d'intavolatura,  etc)  which, I presume, may have
   been sung to and/or the melody played by another instrument as
   fancy took them.

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 30/4/13, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Instrumental music with alfabeto
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 30 April, 2013, 21:53

  I am sure we have discussed this before but are there any other
   sources
  of purely instrumental music besides Marini  with alfabeto?
  Monica
  --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Early romantic guitaRe: string height

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you. I was specifically asking about the string height on the 6
   string guitar c 1800-1830 with fixed metal frets - not lutes or other
   guitars.  If you have any experience of this particular instrument I'd
   be grateful for your views.

   MH
   --- On Sat, 20/4/13, Azalais azal...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Azalais azal...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Early romantic guitaRe: string height
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Saturday, 20 April, 2013, 19:46

   It varies by instrument.  On some I have gut frets and on some metal,
   and the lengths vary from 480mm to an archlute!   One of the lowest is
   a lightly tensioned vihuela, and on that one there is about 3mm
   clearance between the top of the gut fret and the bottom of the string.
   (I have more trouble with double courses hitting each other and have
   had to re-drill bridges to increase string to string widths, when I
   wanted to use low tension twisted basses.)
   I have several mid-length vihuelas and baroque guitars  (shorter than
   650mm) that can be tuned to E or G...  At E (aA5) a few of them do
   rattle occasionally  but that vanishes when I have them tuned to G with
   a bit more tension.
   On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

   Thank you.  Out of interest, what depression distance (or 'action' if
   you prefer this measurement) have you got on the first string at 12
   fret?

   MH
   --- On Sat, 20/4/13, Azalais [2]azal...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Azalais [3]azal...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Early romantic guitaRe: string height
 To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Saturday, 20 April, 2013, 17:09

   Before physically modifying the guitar, you might want to experiment
   with using slightly higher tension strings.  I've had very good luck
   with Seaguar fluorocarbon fishing line, which has the same mass as gut
   (similar tension at a given diameter), and it comes in many diameters.
   (Use the gut setting in the string calculator to find the right
   diameter)
   You could also experiment by adding one or more thin strips of white
   index card material under the nut.
   Az
   On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
   
   
   
   I'd be grateful if players of the early six string guitar (say,
   1800 -
   1830) could let me know what string height they find best on the
   instrument. To be specific: by string height I mean the distance
   required to depress the string to the fingerboard (not to the top
   of
   the fret - the usual 'action' measurement) at the 12th fret,  for
   both
   the first and sixth string.
   
   I've fairly recently dug out my Grobert copy for a few shows and,
   as I
   start to pluck harder, I find I'm getting some string rattles
   (possibly
   on adjacent frets) in the lower positions (ie on frets 1 to 5) on
   the
   first and second strings.  Whether or not the belly has sunk I
   don't
   know (it doesn't seem to have done) but the depressing distance
   (as
   described above) of the first string at the 12th fret is only
   3.0mm
   which seems low by modern guitar standards. The frets are about
   0.9mm
   high so the 12th fret 'action', if you prefer that measure, is
   only
   some 2.1mm.  Clearly this all makes for ease of playing in the
   higher
   positions - but at the expense of some string rattles.
   
   So in making the necessary adjustments it would be interesting to
   know
   what others use on similar instruments. My first thoughts are to
   heighten the bridge saddle to increase the depression distance of
   the
   first string at the 12th fret to between 3.5 and 4.0mm (ie an
   'action'
   of between 2.6 and 3.1mm).
   
   MH
   
   --
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=azal...@gmail.com
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=azal...@gmail.com
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Early romantic guitaRe: string height

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you. I was specifically asking about the string height on the 6
   string guitar c 1800-1830 with fixed metal frets - not lutes or other
   guitars.  If you have any experience of this particular instrument I'd
   be grateful for your views.

   MH
   --- On Sat, 20/4/13, Azalais azal...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Azalais azal...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Early romantic guitaRe: string height
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Saturday, 20 April, 2013, 19:46

   It varies by instrument.  On some I have gut frets and on some metal,
   and the lengths vary from 480mm to an archlute!   One of the lowest is
   a lightly tensioned vihuela, and on that one there is about 3mm
   clearance between the top of the gut fret and the bottom of the string.
   (I have more trouble with double courses hitting each other and have
   had to re-drill bridges to increase string to string widths, when I
   wanted to use low tension twisted basses.)
   I have several mid-length vihuelas and baroque guitars  (shorter than
   650mm) that can be tuned to E or G...  At E (aA5) a few of them do
   rattle occasionally  but that vanishes when I have them tuned to G with
   a bit more tension.
   On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

   Thank you.  Out of interest, what depression distance (or 'action' if
   you prefer this measurement) have you got on the first string at 12
   fret?

   MH
   --- On Sat, 20/4/13, Azalais [2]azal...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Azalais [3]azal...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Early romantic guitaRe: string height
 To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Saturday, 20 April, 2013, 17:09

   Before physically modifying the guitar, you might want to experiment
   with using slightly higher tension strings.  I've had very good luck
   with Seaguar fluorocarbon fishing line, which has the same mass as gut
   (similar tension at a given diameter), and it comes in many diameters.
   (Use the gut setting in the string calculator to find the right
   diameter)
   You could also experiment by adding one or more thin strips of white
   index card material under the nut.
   Az
   On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
   
   
   
   I'd be grateful if players of the early six string guitar (say,
   1800 -
   1830) could let me know what string height they find best on the
   instrument. To be specific: by string height I mean the distance
   required to depress the string to the fingerboard (not to the top
   of
   the fret - the usual 'action' measurement) at the 12th fret,  for
   both
   the first and sixth string.
   
   I've fairly recently dug out my Grobert copy for a few shows and,
   as I
   start to pluck harder, I find I'm getting some string rattles
   (possibly
   on adjacent frets) in the lower positions (ie on frets 1 to 5) on
   the
   first and second strings.  Whether or not the belly has sunk I
   don't
   know (it doesn't seem to have done) but the depressing distance
   (as
   described above) of the first string at the 12th fret is only
   3.0mm
   which seems low by modern guitar standards. The frets are about
   0.9mm
   high so the 12th fret 'action', if you prefer that measure, is
   only
   some 2.1mm.  Clearly this all makes for ease of playing in the
   higher
   positions - but at the expense of some string rattles.
   
   So in making the necessary adjustments it would be interesting to
   know
   what others use on similar instruments. My first thoughts are to
   heighten the bridge saddle to increase the depression distance of
   the
   first string at the 12th fret to between 3.5 and 4.0mm (ie an
   'action'
   of between 2.6 and 3.1mm).
   
   MH
   
   --
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=azal...@gmail.com
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=azal...@gmail.com
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Early romantic guitaRe: string height

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I'd be grateful if players of the early six string guitar (say, 1800 -
   1830) could let me know what string height they find best on the
   instrument. To be specific: by string height I mean the distance
   required to depress the string to the fingerboard (not to the top of
   the fret - the usual 'action' measurement) at the 12th fret,  for both
   the first and sixth string.

   I've fairly recently dug out my Grobert copy for a few shows and, as I
   start to pluck harder, I find I'm getting some string rattles (possibly
   on adjacent frets) in the lower positions (ie on frets 1 to 5) on the
   first and second strings.  Whether or not the belly has sunk I don't
   know (it doesn't seem to have done) but the depressing distance (as
   described above) of the first string at the 12th fret is only 3.0mm
   which seems low by modern guitar standards. The frets are about 0.9mm
   high so the 12th fret 'action', if you prefer that measure, is only
   some 2.1mm.  Clearly this all makes for ease of playing in the higher
   positions - but at the expense of some string rattles.

   So in making the necessary adjustments it would be interesting to know
   what others use on similar instruments. My first thoughts are to
   heighten the bridge saddle to increase the depression distance of the
   first string at the 12th fret to between 3.5 and 4.0mm (ie an 'action'
   of between 2.6 and 3.1mm).

   MH

   --


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[VIHUELA] Re: Fuenllana

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well, Orphenica Lyra is 1554 and I'd not think he'd be much younger
   than around 30 for such a prestigious (and large - ie expensive)
   publication.

   So I'd put his date of birth around 1520. I suspect the c 1500 - 1579
   means that 1500 is a guess but 1579 is evidenced. 1579 also fits with
   average adult lifespan of the period of around 60 (ie excluding
   children with their extremely high early mortality rate).

   Is there nothing in the extensive prologue, dedication, notes which
   give some idea of his history?

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 2/1/13, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Fuenllana
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 2 January, 2013, 14:33

  Does anyone have any dates for Fuenllana.  I have just come across a
  source which gives them as c.1500-1579.   It seems unlikely to me
   that
  he would have lived to be 79... Groves gives fl. 1553-1578.
  Monica
  --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I'm not aware of any detailed work dedicated to the output of this
   maker - in fact, few lute or guitar makers (other than 19th century
   ones like Torres) have attracted research comparable to that of the
   famous violin makers.

   MH
   --- On Mon, 3/12/12, Simen Omang donoma...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Simen Omang donoma...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: EugeneBraig brai...@osu.edu, Vihuela Dmth
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 3 December, 2012, 10:38

   Hello,
   I'm looking for literature on the biography and the work of Mateo
   Sellas.
   Anybody that can point me to articles written particularly on him? or
   that deal more generally with the luthiers of 17th century Venice and
   FAA(c)ssen?
   In Italian, German, Spanish and French as well!
   Thanks :)
   SImen Omang
   On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Dear Eugene,
I also find Strizich more complicated than necessary and really
 only
useful for academics interested in the period guitar who don't
 actually
play the instrument - are there any?
And I agree with what you're saying below: ie to transcribe the
tablature into staff notation by pretending that the 4th and 5th
courses have both strings at the lower octave. This way there's
 much
less room for ambiguity and the music will sound different
 depending on
which particular tuning arrangement an individual player chooses
 to
employ -   in fact, a sort of staff notation tablature
regards,
Martyn
--- On Wed, 21/11/12, Braig, Eugene [2]brai...@osu.edu wrote:
  From: Braig, Eugene [3]brai...@osu.edu
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?
  To: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 21 November, 2012, 21:18
Indeed.  I'm in the day job office and can't refer directly, but
 I seem
to remember spots/chords where it's not clear to which
 course/string
the symbol applied.  Feel free to correct me if this is not the
 case.
Strizich is a somewhat useful...but also a somewhat odd effort.
Personally, I feel de Visee is one of those few 5-course
 characters who
loses almost nothing in use of the low A throughout.  If
 transcribing
de Visee to modern notation, I'd almost rather assume a typical
 modern
instrument, with notes along the fifth notated as though they are
 along
an A, as Grimes did in his guitar transcriptions for good ol' Mel
 Bay,
de Visee included.
Best,
Eugene
-Original Message-
From: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:39 PM
To: Braig, Eugene
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?
Well - Strizich does indicate which course the notes are on with
 a
little figure in a circle below the stave but you need a
 magnifying
glass to read them.  e.g. in the first bar the c is played on the
 5th
course and the a on
the 3rd.   He also puts in zeros to indicate open courses e.g. on
 line
3 in
the third bar the zeros over the a and b natural indicate that
 they are
played on the open 5th and 2nd courses.
It does highlight how difficult it is to transcribe baroque
 guitar
music coherantly.
Monica
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Braig, Eugene [3][8]brai...@osu.edu
To: Vihuelalist [4][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:41 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?
A little late to this chat, but I find the Strizich
 transcription a
bit
unwieldy in notating notes along the reentrant a at pitch.  It's
 just
hard
to know whether notes in the relevant range belong along the a,
 g, or
b
string.

 Best,
 Eugene


 -Original Message-
 From: [5][10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[6][11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Monica Hall
 Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 2:33 PM
 To: [7][12]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
 Cc: Vihuelalist
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?

 A transcription of it is also included in Robert Strizich's
 edition
of De

[VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Eugene,

   I also find Strizich more complicated than necessary and really only
   useful for academics interested in the period guitar who don't actually
   play the instrument - are there any?

   And I agree with what you're saying below: ie to transcribe the
   tablature into staff notation by pretending that the 4th and 5th
   courses have both strings at the lower octave. This way there's much
   less room for ambiguity and the music will sound different depending on
   which particular tuning arrangement an individual player chooses to
   employ -   in fact, a sort of staff notation tablature

   regards,

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 21/11/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 21 November, 2012, 21:18

   Indeed.  I'm in the day job office and can't refer directly, but I seem
   to remember spots/chords where it's not clear to which course/string
   the symbol applied.  Feel free to correct me if this is not the case.
   Strizich is a somewhat useful...but also a somewhat odd effort.
   Personally, I feel de Visee is one of those few 5-course characters who
   loses almost nothing in use of the low A throughout.  If transcribing
   de Visee to modern notation, I'd almost rather assume a typical modern
   instrument, with notes along the fifth notated as though they are along
   an A, as Grimes did in his guitar transcriptions for good ol' Mel Bay,
   de Visee included.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall
   Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:39 PM
   To: Braig, Eugene
   Cc: Vihuelalist
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
   Well - Strizich does indicate which course the notes are on with a
   little figure in a circle below the stave but you need a magnifying
   glass to read them.  e.g. in the first bar the c is played on the 5th
   course and the a on
   the 3rd.   He also puts in zeros to indicate open courses e.g. on line
   3 in
   the third bar the zeros over the a and b natural indicate that they are
   played on the open 5th and 2nd courses.
   It does highlight how difficult it is to transcribe baroque guitar
   music coherantly.
   Monica
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Braig, Eugene [3]brai...@osu.edu
   To: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:41 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
   A little late to this chat, but I find the Strizich transcription a
   bit
   unwieldy in notating notes along the reentrant a at pitch.  It's just
   hard
   to know whether notes in the relevant range belong along the a, g, or
   b
   string.
   
Best,
Eugene
   
   
-Original Message-
From: [5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 2:33 PM
To: [7]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
   
A transcription of it is also included in Robert Strizich's edition
   of De
Visee's complete works published by Heugel in1969.
   
Monica
   
- Original Message -
From: [8]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
To: Monica Hall [9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Arto Wikla [10]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; Vihuelalist
[11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
   guitar?
   
   
It has also been recorded by Rafael Andia. But I don't really like
   the
recording...
   
mvh
Are
   
Dear Arto
   
There is a guitar version of this chaconne - in D minor - in the
   huge
manuscript F.Pn Res. F. 844.   It is on p.237.
   
Someone - Stuart I think - pointed out that you can download an
   image of
the
whole of this ms. from the Bib. Nat. site.
   
Regards
   
Monica
   
   
- Original Message -
From: Arto Wikla [12]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
To: Vihuelalist [13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:22 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
   
   
Dear flat back lutenists,
   
My try on de Visee's Chaconne in A minor is - as I told - is in
   
[14]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be
   [15]http://vimeo.com/53172045
   
As I said, there is the original(?) theorbo version of this
   d-minor
lute
version, but I have a strong memory image that there is also a
   version
to the 5 course guitar of this Chaconne. Is it there? Monica?
   Other
specialists?
   
best,

[VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Date: Thursday, 22 November, 2012, 15:17

   Dear Monica,

   I think you've misunderstood my point about fellow academics! - sorry I
   wasn't clearer.

   In writing this: ' I also find Strizich more complicated than necessary
   and really only useful for academics interested in the period guitar
   who don't actually play the instrument - are there any?'  I was _not_
   making the point that academics should not take an interest in the 5
   course guitar,  but that I couldn't conceive of them doing very much
   unless they played the instrument - at least at a basic level.  Your
   thirdly comment below ('Their re-action was The music is rubbish
   isn't it?   Fortunately the third examiner was a
   guitarist'.) reinforces my point.  Moreover, what would the first
   two examiners have said if presented them with a Strizich style
   transcription? probaby passed out I shouldn't wonder.

   Though on reflection, you may be right about not using a low bass 4th
   and 5th course as a sort of substitute tablature as I suggested
   earlier: not so much from the point of notational precision,  but
   because it muddies the waters of different possible interpretations
   depending on whether the thumb or finger is plucking, the angle of
   pluck employed (ie to emphasise a particular string within a course),
   etc.  But Heaven alone  knows how we should notate this subjective and
   interpretative matter: perhaps Strizich was on the right lines in using
   small notes (maybe making them faint too might help) but I think he
   over-eggs the pudding by trying to make his transcriptions served
   different purposes: to both represent the sounds and to show where to
   finger notes. For non-guitar players a transcription is probably best
   just left as a staff notation showing pitches (with small notes) and no
   playing markings.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 22/11/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
 guitar?
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 22 November, 2012, 14:01

   First of all - don't you think that some academics at least ought to be
   interested in the 5-course guitar repertoire?   Frankly I think they
   should be and indeed some of them are.   After all it has some bearing
   on other aspects of 17th century music e.g. music for lute and keyboard
   and continuo playing.   I don't think a ghetto mentality does us any
   favours.
   Secondly - I think that it is unhelpful and misleading to transcribe
   5-course guitar music as if the 4th and 5th courses were always in the
   lower octave.   It gives completely the wrong idea about how the music
   really sounds and is one reason why even people who play the 5-course
   guitar don't appreciate the significance of re-entrant tunings and the
   re-entrant effect.
   Thirdly - when I did my dissertation on Murcia I did my transcriptions
   just as you suggest and two of my examiners - both eminent professors
   of music just couldn't get their heads around the idea that a lot of
   the notes really sounded an octave higher.  Their re-action was The
   music is rubbish isn't it?   Fortunately the third examiner was a
   guitarist...
   I have been doing a lot of transcriptions for a project recently and
   what I find helpful is to use different shaped note heads for notes on
   the 4th and 5th courses or do them a different colour when it is
   necessary to highlight them.   Strizich may  not have had that option
   but I still think his original transcription is very useful.
   As ever
   Monica
   - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: EugeneBraig [2]brai...@osu.edu
   Cc: Vihuela Dmth [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:40 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
   
  Dear Eugene,
   
  I also find Strizich more complicated than necessary and really
   only
  useful for academics interested in the period guitar who don't
   actually
  play the instrument - are there any?
   
  And I agree with what you're saying below: ie to transcribe the
  tablature into staff notation by pretending that the 4th and 5th
  courses have both strings at the lower octave. This way there's
   much
  less room for ambiguity and the music will sound different
   depending on
  which particular tuning arrangement an individual player chooses to
  employ -   in fact, a sort of staff notation tablature
   
  regards,
   
  Martyn
  --- On Wed, 21/11/12, Braig, Eugene [4]brai...@osu.edu wrote

[VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Stuart,

   As mentioned in our recent exchange on a Losy sarabande: these French
   chaconnes are good examples of the sort of idiomatic arrangement to be
   expected from a decent professional musician at the time. Judging
   from 5 course guitar music in some (amateur?) compiled MSs (such as the
   execrable Goess Vogl - even after inserting the 'right' flags etc)
   there was an oceanic gulf between many amateur players and paid
   performers - not, it has to be said, so much apparent nowadays.

   I guess an interesting, if academic, question is which version came
   first

   regards

   Martyn.
   --- On Sun, 11/11/12, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: ar...@student.matnat.uio.no, Vihuelalist
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 11 November, 2012, 20:24

  I couldn't resist a quick try at it:
  [1][1]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav
  The fifth and sixth couplets (?) seem quite different from the
  lute/theorbo. I wonder if the scribe was arranging it as s/he wrote
   it
  out?
  Listening to the massive, booming performances of this piece on
  youtube, on monster lute/theorbo makes the little guitar seem a bit
  feeble. Maybe it need a very extravert performance on a loud guitar.
  Stuart
  On 11 November 2012 19:33, Monica Hall [2][2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  wrote:
A transcription of it is also included in Robert Strizich's
   edition
of De
Visee's complete works published by Heugel in1969.
Monica
- Original Message - From:
   [3][3]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
To: Monica Hall [4][4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Arto Wikla [5][5]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; Vihuelalist
[6][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
guitar?
It has also been recorded by Rafael Andia. But I don't really like
the
recording...
mvh
Are
Dear Arto
There is a guitar version of this chaconne - in D minor - in the
huge
manuscript F.Pn Res. F. 844.   It is on p.237.
Someone - Stuart I think - pointed out that you can download an
image of
the
whole of this ms. from the Bib. Nat. site.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Arto Wikla [7][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
To: Vihuelalist [8][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:22 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
Dear flat back lutenists,
My try on de Visee's Chaconne in A minor is - as I told - is in
[9][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be
   [10][10]http://vimeo.com/53172045
As I said, there is the original(?) theorbo version of this
   d-minor
lute
version, but I have a strong memory image that there is also a
version
to the 5 course guitar of this Chaconne. Is it there? Monica?
   Other
specialists?
best,
Arto
To get on or off this list see list information at
[11][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. [12]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav
  2. mailto:[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  3. mailto:[14]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
  4. mailto:[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  5. mailto:[16]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
  6. mailto:[17]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  7. mailto:[18]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
  8. mailto:[19]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  9. [20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be
 10. [21]http://vimeo.com/53172045
 11. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be
  10. http://vimeo.com/53172045
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  12. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav
  13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  14. 

[VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Date: Wednesday, 7 November, 2012, 8:51

   Dear Stuart,

   I'm not suggesting that these Losy guitar pieces were originally
   composed for mandora rather than guitar (or for Dm lute):  merely
   suggesting it as a practical possibility - at least for some pieces.

   Regarding strummed chords and the like: I would expect any competant
   arranger to transcribe a piece in a way which is idiomatically suited
   to the particular instrument. See, for example, the pieces extant for
   lute and theorbo with De Visee named as composer (whether he himself
   actually played the lute) - the versions are arranged idiomatically for
   both instruments.

   Re the sarabande: I'm not quite sure the point you're making - sorry
   Stuart. Surely not that sarabandes weren't composed well into the 18th
   century (look at JS Bach for one). The very slow mannered dance (as
   found in some JSB's works) seems to have been increasingly developed
   from the early 18th century onwards but I would have expected Losy to
   still be writing in the earlier not so laboured style (tho' not as fast
   at Matt. Locke who tells us they are the fastest of all dances..).

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 6/11/12, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 20:18

  But how do you think the Tombeau, Sarabande and Minuet would  work
   on a
  mandora? There are a lot of strummed chords in the Sarabande. Very
  untypical for a mandora?
  And the stringing arrangement is probably a high fifth course and
  octave on fourth - quite different from low basses of a mandora.
  Isn't the Sarabande looking back to the 17th century, rather than to
  galant style?
  Stuart
  On 6 November 2012 15:18, Martyn Hodgson
   [1][1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  wrote:
   Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering
the
   date.   Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see,
   for
   example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk
   77
but
   you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly
   transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers
(down,
   up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two
semi-quavers (u
   d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.
   This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such
scattered
   errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is
   No
33
   'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over
   which
   I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively
(shades of
   William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a
copy of
   the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and,
although
   some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it
   plays
as a
   triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a
5/4
   guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a
'Menuet'
   which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a
   menuet
can be
   easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors exclude it
   altogether, perhaps for such bamng reasons - so No 32 isn't in
the
   publication...).  But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such
   a
work
   at that date - so the  'communist' state at the time was not
   all
   bad..
   You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include
another
   one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Mopravian Museum A
   3329
   The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is
   on
page
   31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau  /
C
   Loeschi'  which the editors thought, I think correctly, is
   Losy.
This
   particular piece does, in fact, appear as a Dm lute piece
   (can't
find
   it off-hand but I have it somewhere) as well as in  D189 for a
   6
string
   instrument in a known mandora tuning.   We've discussed D189
before -
   it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f.
   3
   'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa
   Chytarra')
and,
   interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et

[VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Chris and Stuart,

   I've only ever seen a very few places in mandora/gallichon tablatures
   where a strummed chord might possibly be expected - but even here it is
   more likely that just a plucked full chord was played.  As said in my
   earlier note to Stuart, I'd expect any competant arranger to transcribe
   pieces idiomatically, so the absence or presence of strums in a
   particular source really tells us very little.

   Also bear in mind that most solo mandora/gallichon music was composed
   after the 5 course guitar largely went out of fashion and that by the
   1740s onwards the prevailing style was 'pre-classical' with clean
   lines, arpeggios, and the like. Also by the 1770/80s more sources
   indicate a 7, 8 or 9 course mandora (eg the interesting trembula,
   mandora and strings concertos by Beethoven's teacher Albrechtsberger)
   and this also makes cross string band strumming trickier and unlikely.

   Much m/g music is very light weight (to put it kindly) and the bass
   note often just hints at the underlying harmony rather than being
   contrapuntal (a bit like early 19th century guitar music by such as
   Carulli).  I suspect rythmic strumming would have been found
   disagreeable (outside the Spanish empire!) by people 'of taste'  in
   this period - until the very end of the century when the 6
   course/string guitar entered the fray..

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 6/11/12, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall
 mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 21:20

   No, not to be confused with a tiny mandore. Of  course it's possible to
   strum a mandora (big lute!) but I don't think it was ever typically
   played liked that. So the Sarabande, as it exists, wouldn't work as a
   typical piece for mandora. Or so, I think, but Martyn knows much more
   about mandoras and mandora music.
   Is this a reasonable generalisation?... Baroque guitar music often has
   full chords and sometimes very rich chords. But Baroque lute and
   mandora music is typically bass and treble parts with hints of
   harmonies here and there.
   Stuart
   On 6 November 2012 20:40, Chris Despopoulos
   [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote:

   Out of curiosity, how is a mandora to be played such that strumming
   would not work? (Not to be confused with a mandore, right?)
   cud
 __

   From: WALSH STUART [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist
   [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:18 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 But how do you think the Tombeau, Sarabande and Minuet would  work on
   a
 mandora? There are a lot of strummed chords in the Sarabande. Very
 untypical for a mandora?
 And the stringing arrangement is probably a high fifth course and
 octave on fourth - quite different from low basses of a mandora.
 Isn't the Sarabande looking back to the 17th century, rather than to
 galant style?
 Stuart
 On 6 November 2012 15:18, Martyn Hodgson
   [1][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 wrote:
   Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering
   the
   date.  Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see, for
   example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk
   77
   but
   you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly
   transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers
   (down,
   up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two
   semi-quavers (u
   d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.
   This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such
   scattered
   errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is
   No
   33
   'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over
   which
   I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively
   (shades of
   William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a
   copy of
   the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and,
   although
   some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it
   plays
   as a
   triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a
   5/4
   guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a
   'Menuet'
   which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a
   menuet
   can be
   easily rebarred

[VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Ah no!

   The interval of the third lies between the third and second course on
   bot mandora/gallichon and guitar. This is precisely why I suggested
   earlier a possible degree of overlap between some of the tablatures -
   as most clearly seen in Brno D189 (eg on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et
   Mandora' ) indicating either instrument is possible.

   regards

   Martyn

   --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 22:16

   I assume that the mandora is tuned like the lute with the 3rd between
   the
   3rd and 4th courses rather than the 2nd and 3rd.   This would make it
   more
   difficult to play all the standard guitar chords.   They would all have
   to
   be re-fingered.  Also at least some of the dissonance is perhaps more
   practical on the guitar than the mandora.
   Just a thought.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: WALSH STUART [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall
   [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 9:20 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
  No, not to be confused with a tiny mandore. Of  course it's
   possible to
  strum a mandora (big lute!) but I don't think it was ever typically
  played liked that. So the Sarabande, as it exists, wouldn't work as
   a
  typical piece for mandora. Or so, I think, but Martyn knows much
   more
  about mandoras and mandora music.
  Is this a reasonable generalisation?... Baroque guitar music often
   has
  full chords and sometimes very rich chords. But Baroque lute and
  mandora music is typically bass and treble parts with hints of
  harmonies here and there.
  Stuart
   
  On 6 November 2012 20:40, Chris Despopoulos
  [1][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote:
   
  Out of curiosity, how is a mandora to be played such that strumming
  would not work? (Not to be confused with a mandore, right?)
  cud
   
   __
   
  From: WALSH STUART [2][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  To: Martyn Hodgson [3][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: Monica Hall [4][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist
  [5][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:18 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
But how do you think the Tombeau, Sarabande and Minuet would
   work on
  a
mandora? There are a lot of strummed chords in the Sarabande.
   Very
untypical for a mandora?
And the stringing arrangement is probably a high fifth course and
octave on fourth - quite different from low basses of a mandora.
Isn't the Sarabande looking back to the 17th century, rather than
   to
galant style?
Stuart
On 6 November 2012 15:18, Martyn Hodgson
  [1][6][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:
  Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad
   considering
  the
  date.  Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see,
   for
  example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in
   MsKk
  77
  but
  you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are
   incorrectly
  transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three
   quavers
  (down,
  up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two
  semi-quavers (u
  d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly
   transcribed.
  This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of
   such
  scattered
  errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best
   is
  No
  33
  'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over
  which
  I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively
  (shades of
  William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I
   saw a
  copy of
  the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time
   and,
  although
  some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it
  plays
  as a
  triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea
   of a
  5/4
  guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has
   a
  'Menuet'
  which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a
  menuet
  can be
  easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors
   exclude it
  altogether, perhaps for such bamng

[VIHUELA] Losy Rondeau

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   I mentioned below that the Losy rondeau in Brno D189 for a 6 course
   mandora (or guitar?) is also known in a Dm lute version but at the time
   I couldn't lay my hands on the source.
   I have now:  Besancon Ms 279152, Cod. Saizenay.

   It's in the same key (C) for both instruments. The lute has a few extra
   low basses but both versions are fairly close. It fits on both
   instruments very well ('tho it's an easy piece technically anyway) so
   no conclusion about which version came first are obvious..

   Martyn

   --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 15:18

  Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering the
  date.   Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see, for
  example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk 77 but
  you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly
  transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers
   (down,
  up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two semi-quavers
   (u
  d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.
  This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such
   scattered
  errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is No 33
  'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over which
  I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively (shades
   of
  William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a copy
   of
  the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and,
   although
  some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it plays as
   a
  triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a 5/4
  guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a
   'Menuet'
  which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a menuet can
   be
  easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors exclude it
  altogether, perhaps for such bamng reasons - so No 32 isn't in the
  publication...).  But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such a
   work
  at that date - so the  'communist' state at the time was not all
  bad..
  You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include
   another
  one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Mopravian Museum A 3329
  The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is on
   page
  31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau  /   C
  Loeschi'  which the editors thought, I think correctly, is Losy.
   This
  particular piece does, in fact, appear as a Dm lute piece (can't
   find
  it off-hand but I have it somewhere) as well as in  D189 for a 6
   string
  instrument in a known mandora tuning.   We've discussed D189 before
   -
  it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f. 3
  'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa Chytarra')
   and,
  interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et Mandora indicating
  either instrument is possible. And from f. 48v it has pieces for an
  instrument with six courses in a known mandora tuning with the sixth
  course just a tone below the fifth - presumably a guitarist would
  simply play the open third course. On 51v is our rondeau showing
   quite
  clearly 6 courses - and in this piece putting the sixth course up an
  octave would spoil the melodic effect (see last system bars 3
   through
  to 6). Odd that the editors make no mention of a sixth course being
  required. The piece also fits very easily on the mandora so perhaps,
   as
  suggested earlier, it was conceived for the mandora by Losy rather
   than
  guitar or Dm lute. And so, in an indirect way, perhaps Losy was able
   to
  play the guitar - but in mandora form.
  I also find Deisel works better on the mandora than guitar ( to do
   with
  having low basses and on the outside) as also discussed before.
  rgds
  Martyn
  --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 13:19
  Well - I hadn't thought about the mandora or indeed what kind of
   lute
  the
  music might originally have been for.
  In fact there is a rather better edition of all of Losy's guitar
  music
  originally edited by Jan Racek, revised by Jaroslav Pohanka and
  published by
  Supraphon in 1979

[VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering the
   date.   Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see, for
   example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk 77 but
   you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly
   transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers (down,
   up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two semi-quavers (u
   d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.

   This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such scattered
   errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is No 33
   'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over which
   I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively (shades of
   William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a copy of
   the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and, although
   some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it plays as a
   triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a 5/4
   guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a 'Menuet'
   which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a menuet can be
   easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors exclude it
   altogether, perhaps for such bamng reasons - so No 32 isn't in the
   publication...).  But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such a work
   at that date - so the  'communist' state at the time was not all
   bad..

   You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include another
   one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Mopravian Museum A 3329

   The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is on page
   31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau  /   C
   Loeschi'  which the editors thought, I think correctly, is Losy. This
   particular piece does, in fact, appear as a Dm lute piece (can't find
   it off-hand but I have it somewhere) as well as in  D189 for a 6 string
   instrument in a known mandora tuning.   We've discussed D189 before -
   it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f. 3
   'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa Chytarra') and,
   interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et Mandora indicating
   either instrument is possible. And from f. 48v it has pieces for an
   instrument with six courses in a known mandora tuning with the sixth
   course just a tone below the fifth - presumably a guitarist would
   simply play the open third course. On 51v is our rondeau showing quite
   clearly 6 courses - and in this piece putting the sixth course up an
   octave would spoil the melodic effect (see last system bars 3 through
   to 6). Odd that the editors make no mention of a sixth course being
   required. The piece also fits very easily on the mandora so perhaps, as
   suggested earlier, it was conceived for the mandora by Losy rather than
   guitar or Dm lute. And so, in an indirect way, perhaps Losy was able to
   play the guitar - but in mandora form.

   I also find Deisel works better on the mandora than guitar ( to do with
   having low basses and on the outside) as also discussed before.

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 13:19

   Well - I hadn't thought about the mandora or indeed what kind of lute
   the
   music might originally have been for.
   In fact there is a rather better edition of all of Losy's guitar
   music
   originally edited by Jan Racek, revised by Jaroslav Pohanka and
   published by
   Supraphon in 1979 in the series Musica Antiqua Bohemica.
   It includes both the Tombeau and the Sarabande.   They seem to me to be
   very
   idiomatically conceived for the guitar.   The chord shapes are  typical
   alfabeto.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 9:18 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
   
  When you say 'arrangements of lute music' do you include mandora as
   a
  lute or have you just the 11 course Dm instrument in mind (as most
  people still do)?  One of Losy's guitar pieces (rondeau in Brno
  D189) is extant in a mandora tablature (usually mistaken for guitar
  tablature!).  Maybe this tombeau was conceived for
   mandora..
   
  The Karl Scheidt publication was, I recall, aimed at beginners,
  and contains mostly facile Losy works - some from the first Ms in
   the
  Lobkowicz Ms volume (OLIM Prague II Ms Kk 77) in which Losy is
  identified as the composer

[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar

[Martyn Hodgson]

Eh!
   --- On Thu, 13/9/12, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 13 September, 2012, 16:15

   On 13 September 2012 17:04, Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
   To reduce to absurdity: if we
   eliminate, say, all thirds from a chord
   'Absurdity' another word for 'power chords' or for the music in which
   these chords commonly are used? ;-)
   David - not waiting for an answer to a hypothetical question.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well.  I really can't see that the technical difficulty of
   fingering 20003 is really much greater than 20033;  and the suggestion
   that using the 3rd fret to act as a pivot (for example to play 00232),
   whilst certainly true, is a bit desperate: we're really not looking at
   any very difficult chord shapes or chord changes here.  I still prefer
   my explanation for 20033: including that it results in a reasonably
   equal mix of thirds and fifths in the harmony (especially if the
   French/Corbetta tuning is employed) - see earlier.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 12/9/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
 To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 12 September, 2012, 20:36

  I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to
  finger the chord in the way you suggest.   It is quite awkward as
   both
  2nd and 4th fingers are in the way.  I do wonder whether you have
  actually tried it in conjunction with other chords.   Some of
  the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of
   them
  in quick succession does require a lot of practice.   The fingering
   of
  them is given in many of the sources and is the optimum method.
  Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and I think it would
  not be wise to get involved with that.
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: [1]RALPH MAIER
  To: [2]Monica Hall
  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
The chord I'm referring to - the  g chord with a doubled 3rd
   (20003)
-  can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow.
  As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for
  example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his
  recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to
  passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise
  interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when
   working
  under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes
  regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the
  contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple
   as
  personal preferences.
  RM
  - Original Message -
  From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
  To: RALPH MAIER [2]rkcma...@shaw.ca
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using
   the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this
   topic.   Whichever of the two chord fingerings you
   chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the
   4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it.
  
   Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for
   passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords.
  
   Monica
  
  
 - Original Message -
 From: RALPH MAIER
 To: Monica Hall
 Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist
 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
  
  
 Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously
   spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be
   gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the
   fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that
   might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious.
  
 - Original Message -
 From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
 To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  
  Well - I pointed out in my original message  that
   the
  earliest sources of
  alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon -
   actually
  give the
  20003 version.  I think that the reason for this
   is that on
  the 4-course
  guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most
   convenient
  note on the
  5th course was just added.
 
  So the real question is why did they
   change?   This
  morning when I was
  practicing I tried playing Chord A with an unstopped
   2nd course
  in all the
  relevant places and it just is less
   convenient.   The
  3rd finger is floating
  above the fingerboard with nothing to do

[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar

[Martyn Hodgson]

   This is also a very good and practical point.

   M
   --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Natasha Miles natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

 From: Natasha Miles natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
 Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 17:47

   Just a thought,
   Possibly it has something to do with smooth transition from the chord
   most likely to precede G major (chord V, D major).
   If you play a D on the second course you have a finger already prepared
   for the final G chord.
   Natasha
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:13:01 +0100
To: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
CC: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
   
   
Dear Monica,
   
When you write 'The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other
chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on
   to
the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are
doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone
may have learnt in their harmony course.' your second sentence about
the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony seems to me to accurately
reflect how these chords probably became established.
   
However the first sentence begs the original question: viz. why show
as 20033 rather than 20003? Here, as others have already pointed
out, I really do think there was some conscious decision made (by
strummers before the days of recorded alfabeto) - in my view probably
to duplicate the fifth rather than the third because the latter was
already strong being the first course struck in a downwards strum.
   
Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course (ie the Corbetta/
French tuning which might reflect an earlier practice than generally
recorded - certainly the four course guitar had an octave on the
   fourth
course) if the 2nd course were taken open you would only have one
string (the higher of the fifth course) for the upper octave fifth
   but
four strings for the thirds; in this case fingering the 2nd
course gives more equality between the thirds and fifths
   
rgds
   
Martyn
   
--- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32
   
Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here.
The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged
in the way that most
conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the
notes
and which ones are doubled is determined by
practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their
harmony
course.
Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the
context in
which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what
circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than
another?
The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in
different positions on the fingerboard. They are not revoiced or
re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in mind is plaing different
harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords
themselves.
I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of getting you to
play the guitar or some sort of stepping stone to doing something
superior. It is a perfectly valid tradition in its own right. After
all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for years before
alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things like
   inserting
4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding ornamentation and
   of
course you can write out completely different chords in tablature.
Improvisation doesn't mean doing something completely out of
   character.
Monica
- Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos
[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen
[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
 I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some
 clarification, which is why I'm giving it. In other words, if
I'm
 wrong about this, please let me know!
 When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd
 course (from high to low) or not, at will. Considerations include
 practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or
 general emphasis within the musical context. Everybody learns the
G
 chord

[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   When you write   'The  point is that the alfabeto chords (and other
   chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to
   the guitar fingerboard.  The order of the notes and which ones are
   doubled is determined  by practical considerations not by what anyone
   may have learnt in their harmony course.'   your second sentence about
   the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony seems to me to accurately
   reflect how these chords probably became established.

   However the first sentence begs the original question: viz. why show
   as  20033 rather than 20003?  Here, as others have already pointed
   out, I really do think there was some conscious decision made (by
   strummers before the days of recorded alfabeto)  - in my view probably
   to duplicate the fifth rather than the third because the latter was
   already strong being the first course struck in a downwards strum.

   Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course (ie the Corbetta/
   French tuning which might reflect an earlier practice than generally
   recorded - certainly the four course guitar had an octave on the fourth
   course)  if the 2nd course were taken open you would only have one
   string (the higher of the fifth course) for the upper octave fifth but
   four strings for the thirds; in this case fingering the 2nd
   course gives more equality between the thirds and fifths

   rgds

   Martyn

   --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
 To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32

   Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here.
   The  point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged
   in the way that most
   conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard.  The order of the
   notes
   and which ones are doubled is determined  by
   practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their
   harmony
   course.
   Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the
   context in
   which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so.  In what
   circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than
   another?
   The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in
   different positions on the fingerboard.  They are not revoiced or
   re-arranged in any way.   What Sanz has in mind is plaing different
   harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords
   themselves.
   I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of getting you to
   play the guitar or some sort of stepping stone to doing something
   superior.   It is a perfectly valid tradition in its own right.   After
   all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for years before
   alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things like inserting
   4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding ornamentation and of
   course you can write out completely different chords in tablature.
   Improvisation doesn't mean doing something completely out of character.
   Monica
   - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos
   [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen
   [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
  I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some
  clarification, which is why I'm giving it.  In other words, if
   I'm
  wrong about this, please let me know!
  When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd
  course (from high to low) or not, at will.  Considerations include
  practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or
  general emphasis within the musical context.  Everybody learns the
   G
  chord (modern) in various ways, and then later sees other people
  playing it with variations.  At some point, one tries all the
  variations at least once.
  My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there to get you playing the
  guitar...  Same as rudimentary chord books today.  See your
   typical
  Ukulele book, for example.  Sanz expanded on the Alfabeto with his
  Labarinto, and makes the claim that with all these chords you can
   now
  compose whatever variations you want (roughly paraphrased from
  memory).  But (again, my opinion) this is still a guideline meant
   to
  illustrate the wonderful quality of the guitar, the displacement of
  chord forms to other positions, yielding other chords.  I believe
  chords, as a concept, were fairly new at the time, and this
   Labarinto
  was quite the innovation.
  Further, my opinion is that you will 

[VIHUELA] Recording wizardry and Re: Schickhardt and Fibiger arrangements

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Stuart,

   Well, I have Kristian Buhl-Mortensen's recent CD of these suites and
   very tasteful they are too. But I'm a wee bit bothered that the balance
   between guitar, bass viol and hapsichord is only possible through the
   wizardry of modern recording technology!  In practice I can't quite see
   that the guitar could compete with these other instruments as heard on
   the recording.

   I always thought the pieces would be mostly played on two guitars. And.
   indeed, I've just dug out the MSs which have these suites and most have
   second parts for a guitar. There is, exceptionally,one suite which
   calls for a harpsichord ( staff notation in F4 clef marked 'Basso.
   Cembalo' - no figureing) in Ny Kgl. Saml. 110 (Book 2a) but the very
   fact that this is so exceptional throws doubt that the others maked for
   two guitars would have been performed with hapsichord and other
   instruments in a concerted asrrangement.  And also note that this suite
   also has a writtten out part for a second guitar (like the other
   suites) marked 'No 2 Accompagnement de la Guitarre D moll/par Diesel' .
   The hand of the staff notation bass also doesn't look the same as that
   generally in the MS - maybe a later addition.

   I would like to see, or rather hear, what auditors on the spot actually
   hear, rather than what a sound engineer (perhaps also with the
   agreement of the flattered artist) thinks I ought to hear  But this
   seems a common problem with many recordings these days so I'm not
   particularly singling out this one and generally I like
   Buhl-Mortensen's stylish and tasteful playing.

   regards,

   Martyn

   PS re your actaul query: I think bourdons on both bass courses for
   these works - but I've also speculated that for such works they were
   possibly placed on the outside (ie struck by the thumb first) as with
   the contemporary mandora ..  The disposition of the parts
   looks very similar. M



   --- On Mon, 16/7/12, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Schickhardt and Fibiger arrangements posted
 To: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net
 Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 16 July, 2012, 11:10

  Very interesting.
  I suppose the guitar most probably would have low fourths and fifth
  courses for this music?
  Stuart
  On 16 July 2012 04:24, Rockford Mjos [1][1]rm...@comcast.net
   wrote:
I have long enjoyed Kristian Buhl-Mortensen's recording of early
music connected to Denmark, so was very pleased to come across
   this
generous posting of music for 5-course guitar:
[2][2]http://buhl-mortensen.dk/musik.html
The music (in modern notation, not tab) includes music for guitar
and continuo, as well as guitar duets.
I also found his introduction of music from Frederik IV  very
interesting. Be sure to scroll up to see all the images in the
Danish version.
[3][3]http://buhl-mortensen.dk/fibiger.html#English
-- R
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. mailto:[5]rm...@comcast.net
  2. [6]http://buhl-mortensen.dk/musik.html
  3. [7]http://buhl-mortensen.dk/fibiger.html#English
  4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm...@comcast.net
   2. http://buhl-mortensen.dk/musik.html
   3. http://buhl-mortensen.dk/fibiger.html#English
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm...@comcast.net
   6. http://buhl-mortensen.dk/musik.html
   7. http://buhl-mortensen.dk/fibiger.html#English
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 8:08


   Dear Monica,

   Just to test the envelope a little, a couple of observations arising
   from this:

   1. The high octave on the 4th may, as you say, be a problem (for us)
   where a higher course note is indicated as not to be played in a chord
   (eg e' on the first course).  Perhaps it tells us something about the
   tension of the high octave on the 4th - maybe significantly lower than
   the majority of other strings so as not to be too obtrusive when
   strummed?

   2. And whilst we all(?), me included, generally place our high octaves
   where the thumb (and downwards index finger) strum touches the high
   octave first, as you have pointed out explicit primary evidence for
   this disposition is pretty skimpy (only Ribayez 1677 and the later
   Strad theorboed guitar stringing instructions).  If the disposition is
   reversed so that the low bass is struck first, the high octave is again
   less obtrusive.

   Martyn



   --- On Thu, 31/5/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 31 May, 2012, 15:16

   Yes - indeed.   This is the age old question - Open courses - to
   include or not to include?  For example - Bartolotti with his wonderful
   system has still not made it clear whether the 1st or 2nd courses
   should be included in chords which start on the 4th and 5th courses.
   In some cases it is obvious(?) because the note(s) are dissonant but
   there are a lot of ambiguities.   It may have been left to the player
   to use their discretion.

   There is another ambiguity - and that is De Visee sometimes indicates
   that the 1st course should be omitted from a chord.   But the note will
   still sound on the 4th course in the upper octave.  E.g. in the
   Courante on p. 16 in Book 1, the 3rd stave down - in the two chords in
   the first bar which are E major and A major chords he has indicated
   that the 1st course should be omitted but the E will sound on the 4th
   course anyway.   It is suggested in the introduction to the Eds.
   Transatlantique ed. that the high octave string should be suppressed
   there which seems a bit ott to me.

   Monica


   - Original Message -

   From: [1]Martyn Hodgson

   To: [2]Monica Hall

   Cc: [3]Vihuelalist

   Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:04 PM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums


   Indeed, I only mentioned this particular chord as an example: the
   source I mentioned also has many other partially strummed chords with
   other courses not to be struck. I wonder how much this was an unwritten
   practice which we ought to apply more widely in other tablature sources
   which are not so precise in marking unstrummed strings...

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 31/5/12, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 31 May, 2012, 13:39

   To my knowledge none of the sources go into such detail about R-hand
   technique.   De Visee is one of the people who does put dots on the 1st
   course but as far as I can see all he says is..
   When there are dots on some of the lines as you may see here (ex.) you
   should not strike the strings which they indicate so as to avoid
   dissonances
   and to render the melody more distinct.
   I would imagine it was more a matter of precision and practice.   It is
   not
   only a problem when you have to leave out the first course.   There are
   sometimes 3-part passages on the lowest three courses or on the middle
   3
   courses which are just as difficult to play cleanly.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Vihuela Dmth [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:57 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums
   
   
  Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in
  which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed
  courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of
   course,
   be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with
   these
  dots).
   
  A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th
  courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of
   the
  lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz
   Ms
  OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77  fol 82v - Minuet).  Is there any evidence

[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Ed,

   You'll have seen by now Monica Hall's response and our subsequent
   discussion. Unless there's any other input, it seems there is no
   evidence to suggest this sort of string damping  - it's probably just a
   question of employing great precision in strumming; but I'll keep an
   open mind.

   Your point about the 5th course is certainly well made, however,
   missing this course is not so tricky as avoiding playing the first
   course when using a downwards index strum. Indeed, I raised the matter
   since I'd heard quite a few players accidentally (I presume) strum a
   dissonance by catching the first course especially (tho', of course,
   the occasional unexpected dissonance might be thought to be part of the
   idiosyncratic charm of the instrument...).

   MH

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp wrote:

 From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
 To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 12:30

   I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I
   have a theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th
   course, that they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would
   make a dissonance, they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the
   strum.
   On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in
  which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed
  courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of
   course,
   be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with
   these
  dots).
   
  A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th
  courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of
   the
  lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz
   Ms
  OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77  fol 82v - Minuet).  Is there any evidence
   that
  these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the
   right
  hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course
   or
  is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with
   the
  index finger?
   
  MH
   
   
   
   
   
  --
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums

[Martyn Hodgson]

   To be pedantic,  the Ms with dots I mentioned (a Lobkowicz Ms - OLIM
   Prague II Ms Kk77) is probably Austrian or Bohemian in origin. In fact
   the title page of the first part has ' Pieces Composee Par le Comte
   Logis' - though perhaps arrangements (if that) rather than original
   guitar compositions by Losy.

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
 To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 1 June, 2012, 17:01

   It is only in French sources that they put in dots at all.  They are
   not
   used in Italian sources.
   The idea seems to be prevalent that they included open courses rather
   indiscriminately but I don't think this is so.   The sources which
   mention
   that you should include the open courses - Colonna, Foscarini, Pesori
   are
   referring
   to the standard alfabeto chords.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Ed Durbrow [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
   To: vl [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 12:30 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 5 course guitar - partial strums
   I am curious if there is an answer to your question. Tangentally, I
   have a
   theory that so many strummed chords didn't include the 5th course,
   that
   they didn't even bother to put a dot there if it would make a
   dissonance,
   they just assumed you wouldn't include it in the strum.
   
On May 31, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in
  which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed
  courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of
   course,
   be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with
   these
  dots).
   
  A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th
  courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of
   the
  lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg
   Lobkowicz Ms
  OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77  fol 82v - Minuet).  Is there any evidence
   that
  these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the
   right
  hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed
   course or
  is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with
   the
  index finger?
   
  MH
   
   
   
   
   
  --
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
   
   

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%adurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] 5 course guitar - partial strums

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Various 5 course guitar tablature sources ask for partial strums in
   which only some of the courses are to be strummed; unstrummed
   courses being indicated by dots (although the practice may, of course,
be more widespread than suggested only by the tablatures with these
   dots).

   A typical example is a G major chord (stopped on the 2nd and 5th
   courses) but with a dot on the first course indicating a strum of the
   lower 4 courses but without the first course strummed (eg Lobkowicz Ms
   OLIM Prague II Ms Kk77  fol 82v - Minuet).  Is there any evidence that
   these were ever performed by using, say, the middle finger of the right
   hand (or even a spare left hand finger) to damp the unplayed course or
   is it simply a matter of precision in execution of the strum with the
   index finger?

   MH





   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Monica's Webpage

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well, I did Rob - but I sent my thanks and congrats just to her!

   But so the web knows - thanks again Monica. and thanks
   Rob fr yr time too

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 5/4/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Monica's Webpage
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Rob MacKillop
 robmackil...@gmail.com
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 5 April, 2012, 15:19

   Alas, no holiday for me.  Still, your site is a tremendous resource,
   and I at least thank you for it.
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall
   Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 8:53 AM
   To: Rob MacKillop
   Cc: Vihuelalist
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Monica's Webpage
  Thank-you Rob.   I expect everyone is on their Easter Holidays.
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: [1]Rob MacKillop
  To: [2]Monica Hall
  Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 8:45 AM
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Monica's Webpage
No responses to this? I think Monica deserves all our praise for
   the
incredible amount of work she has put in, and for which we have
   free
access to. Thank You, Monica!
  Rob
  On 3 April 2012 21:26, Monica Hall [4][3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
I am pleased to announce that thanks to Rob's good offices my
webpage has been re-done and improved.   It is now at
[5][4]http://monicahall.co.uk/  although the
   [6]www.monicahall.co.uk
version still works.
In particular I have completely revised and updated my paper on
baroque guitar stringing.  Originally this was published by the
   Lute
Society as a booklet in their series of booklets on various lute
related topics.  When Rob offered me some space on his own web
   page
I did a much abridged version of it with just the texts from the
original sources with brief comments.
However the booklet is something that people have to order and pay
for and I get the impression that nobody bothers to do that.  They
just refer to the online version.
So the new version is much longer and more detailed.   It includes
   a
lot more illustrations from the original sources and the tuning
examples are in staff notation rather than Helmholz notation.   It
also includes the tables and list of sources from the booklet
(updated).   I have also been able to add a few more sources which
   I
have got hold of in the meantime.
It is now I think the most detailed survey of information about
   this
topic.
Comments and suggestions are always welcome.  In theory I can make
changes myself although I haven't risked doing that yet.
Best wishes for Easter, the Spring Festival or whatever you may be
minded to celebrate at the present time.   It isn't actually
   snowing
here but sleet is threatened.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
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  --
   References
  1. mailto:[6]robmackil...@gmail.com
  2. mailto:[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  3. mailto:[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  5. [10]http://monicahall.co.uk/
  6. [11]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
  7. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   4. http://monicahall.co.uk/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robmackil...@gmail.com
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  10. http://monicahall.co.uk/
  11. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Hello Martin,

   Yes, you'll see that the extract I quoted does indeed refer to the
   chitarrone. But by c 1600 (ie by1602/1614) the  'tiorba' was considered
   synonymous with the 'chitarrone' suggesting that at this time Caccini
   really did mean the instrument with extended basses (various sources).
   Before this, as I mentioned earlier (and as Bob Spencer's excellent
   paper makes clear) chitarrone may well have meant just a restrung bass
   lute. Though, of course, we know that Caccini himself sang his songs in
   the 1580/90s (possibly some of them date from the 1570s), well before
   1602, so an ordinary restrung 6 or 7 course bass (or great bass) lute
   may have been employed at that time (incidentally,  I don't think we
   have much if any evidence that 10 course lutes were used in the
   1570/80s - the  painting to which you refer dates from 1610/20 and
   similar representations by Molenaer to c. 1630). The context is: what
   instrument would purchasers of his 1602 and 1614 collections used and,
   bearing in mind the continued influence and popularity of these works,
   also what later players and might have used.

   The reason why all this is on the Vihuela list is that the thread is to
   do with guitars and in this case the similarity between guitar tunings
   and theorbo/chitarrone tuning in that there are places where the
   accompanying bass may be above the voice. But as others have already
   pointed out the theorbo bass line is still very evident even where this
   does occur.

   regards

   Martyn

   --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:

 From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
 To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 16:57

   Dear All,
   Yes, as far as I remember Caccini only talks about chitarrone, not
   tiorba.  It may well be that the two names become synonymous later
   on, and when we talk of a theorbo we mean a long-necked instrument with
   the top two courses at the lower octave.  If we believe Piccinini, the
   long neck first appeared in 1595, and in any case we seem to believe
   him when he tells us that bass lutes could have just the first string
   re-entrant as long as they weren't too big.  It seems the best guess we
   can make is that, at least in the early days, Caccini's chitarrone
   was in fact a short-necked bass lute (with 8-10 courses?) with
   re-entrant tuning of one or both of the top two courses.  This would
   solve most of the problems of chromatic bass notes, 11-10 progressions,
   etc.  I think also of Victoria (whatshername - Archilei?) singing in
   the Florentine Intermedii of 1589 to her own accompaniment on a liuto
   grande, and Saraceni's St.Cecilia painting showing a large 8c(?) lute
   with 8 frets on the neck and the bottom two courses on a short
   extension.
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   P.S. We seem to have migrated to lutes and theorboes - should all this
   be on the vihuela list?!
   On 19/12/2011 16:05, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stewart
   
I agree with almost everything you write (especially about RD's
Musicall Banquet!) - I noticed it after sending and wondered who,
   if
any, would spot it first.. But I can't claim is what a
   deliberate
error.
   
Caccini doesn't say one has to only perform his songs to the
   theorbo -
but rather that it is the best accompanying instrument for the
   voice
(particularly the tenor). And I do agree that the composer would
   have
written his music to be performed by a wide variety of
   instruments.
   
However the question I was originally asked was whether Caccini
   would
have sang to the theorbo since Striggio had reported him singing
   to the
lute. The answer is yes.
   
The use of compound figures has been discussed before I recall.
   One
must bear in mind that the theorbo isn't always the large
   instrument
requiring both top courses the octave down so higher notes are
   more
practicable than might suppose. I suspect an instrument in
   nominal A or
G with just the first course an octave down was much more common
throughout the 17th century than is the practice nowadays. I have
   such
an instrument (fingered string length 76cm with double
   fingerboard
courses) and find it a real joy to play this instrument when
accompanying such things as English continuo songs by Lanier,
   Lawes and
the like and contemporary French songs by Lambert and LeCamus.
   
regards
   
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Stewart McCoy[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
   
  From: Stewart McCoy[2]lu...@tiscali.co.uk
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument
  To: Vihuela List[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 11

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Eloy,

   I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
   as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
   way the music will be  rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography (
   not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing in
   quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.

   I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style was
   generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the exciting
   cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
   wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
   breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
   not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.

   Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
   often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
   must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
   infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
   employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
   at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
   disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
   with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
   performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument just
   plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
 To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44

   You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
   Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
   much
   away..
   These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of
   the
   right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the
   strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck;  in this
   way
   the music will be  rendered more sweetly.
   As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
   number of
   sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments.   There are  two
   printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
   collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
   manuscript
   sources - notably  I-Fc Ms. B 2556.   All of these indicate that the
   strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.   There
   are
   also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
   seem to
   be song accompaniments although they don't include the words.  These
   also
   have strumming patterns based on note values.
   Not much to go on.
   I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
   century
   would have gone in for flamenco style strumming.   They were not
   peasants or
   little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
   dignity to
   imitate what the lower orders did.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Eloy Cruz [1]eloyc...@gmail.com
   To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
   
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how
   to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are
   on
one
hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions-
   and an
apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more
characteristically, strumming.
   
When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of
harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If
   the
player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use
alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz's Laberintos, for
   example).
   
But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation
   gives
not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't
   even
find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set
   of
original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know
something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and
   little
more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely,
   strumming.
The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hagase cuenta que la mano
   derecha
que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compas, y
   los
dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y 

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks for this Chris,

   I'd not noticed it before but see that it's very recent so maybe I've
   not checked for a bit. Neither do I know of Natasha Miles who wrote it
   as her M. Phil dissertation (University of Birmingham).

   I wish she hadn't used the word 'rasguedo' (in the opening abstract) as
   I think it assumes some sort of direct historical link between modern
   flamenco practice and earlier modes of strumming.  However I'll read
   the full thing in due course.  Let us know if you come accross anything
   new and directly relevant to the performance of alfabeto strumming
   c.1600.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 20/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   wrote:

 From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 20 December, 2011, 14:17

  I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to
   the
  University of Birmingham.  Time permitting, I intend to give it a
  read.  I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
  qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts
   in
  court would have been able to resist...  Calls for order, sweetness,
  and dignity notwithstanding.  This paper might touch on that.
  The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
  for Song, Dance and Theatre
  [1]http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
  cud
__
  From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
  Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have
   (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in
   this
way the music will be  rendered more sweetly.). And the
   iconography
  (
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people
   playing
  in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later
   style
  was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
  exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with
   their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a
   fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') -
   but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar
   is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But
   we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a
   Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court.
   Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in
   Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he
   expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century
   guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
  just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
  From: Monica Hall [2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
  To: Eloy Cruz [3][7]eloyc...@gmail.com
  Cc: Vihuelalist [4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually
   strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not
   giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four
   fingers
  of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
  the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck;  in
   this
way
the music will be  rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments.  There are
   two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book
   and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably  I-Fc Ms. B 2556.  All of these indicate that
   the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
  There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna

[VIHUELA] PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I much prefer to have a sequential record of a discussion/thread rather
   than having to go back to laboriously search for the relevant email to
   see precisely what was said umpteen emails ago. As it is, the
   well-recognised problem with this particular mode of communication is
   that many/most people often only skim a message (I count myself guilty
   sometimes) and if, by deleting earlier messages, we loose what was
   actually said (short of an even more time consuming search of archives)
   then any check on accuracy is also lost.

   I also prefer to have the most recent message at the top rather than
   mixed in with the previous one (which can lead to selective quotes) or
   at the bottom which, clearly, if a long thread also involves much
   scrolling down and time wasting.

   Surely if a consistent system is followed whereby messages are always
   replied at the top with the previous ones below in date order then
   nothing is lost. If someone doesn't want to scroll down then they don't
   have to.

   One other thing: I think it important to change the subject heading
   when there's a significant change in content. Some interesting threads
   have subject titles which end up bearing little if any relation to the
   most recent discussion.

   Martyn



   --- On Sat, 17/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
 to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 15:35

 Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of
   the
  stick:
   I am glad you know what is happening.   It all depends on which end of
   the
   stick one has got hold of.
   I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an
  alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie
   the
  lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line -
   even
  if we knew it) but the converse:  that a bass line enables one to
  'realise' a chordal accompaniment (eg alfabeto) on the guitar - not
   the
  same thing at all.
   I'll take your word for it - there isn't time to go back all over it.
  And, of course, songs with nothing other than alfabeto can't and
  therefore don't show single notes. It's only when mixed tablature
  becomes common that we could expect to start to
  see such realisations.  That's quite different to say it's 'wrong'
   to
  consider the practice of inserting some bass notes if one has the
   bass
  and not just the alfabeto. It's almost as if
  one only saw the alfabeto dances in Calvi (1646) without noticing
   his
  intabulated dances later in the same book and concluded he never
   wrote
  in two parts.
   He didn't write either of them actually.  He copied them from
   elsewhere. The
   alfabeto pieces are copied from Corbetta's 1639 book and the other
   pieces
   from an unidentified source probably not   originally for
   guitar.   They
   belong to two different traditions.
  And I haven't even got round to Valdambrini yet - he seems to
   exhibit a
  fine disregard for the precise octave of the bass in his cadential
  examples.
   But that is not relevant to earlier alfabeto accompaniments.
   
  And, no, I don't anywhere suggest that if one has a bass line AND
   the
  alfabeto one should always seek to amalgamate the two. But I
   certainly
  don't think the practice is prohibited by any early contemporary
  sources - hence my suggestion about the performance of the
  Grandi song which has both the alfabeto and the bass line...
   It is not a question of whether it is prohibited or not since we do not
   have
   any surviving  instructions.  It is a question of what  was customary
   at the
   time the Grandi song appeared in print and earlier -  as far as we can
   tell
   from surviving sources which include written out  alfabeto
   accompaniments.
   These do not give any suggestion at all that any attempt was made to
   include
   the bass part.
   Monica
   With reference to Lex ps could you please stop sending the whole
   thread of the discussion together
   with your newest posts?   I have deleted an endless stream of junk
   from the end of this message.
   I suppose we are all such incurable individualists on this list that we
   will never agree as to how we should reply to messages.
   But I wish that people would delete everything except the points they
   are responding to.   Whatever may have been netiquette in the dim
   distant past seems to me irrelevant today.   Remember that these
   messages are archived and if they are just a mess it is difficult to
   refer back to them for useful information.

   --


To get on or off this list see list

[VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Lex,

   Caccini can speak for himself:  'the chitarrone is better suited to
   accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
   instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
   'Ai Lettori  ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
   ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
   qualunque altro.')

   Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone  to
   accompany himself before 1594.

   The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
   basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
   pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
   sung d and f# in the bass.

   I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense:  it is
   certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
   perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
   Ms 704  Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
   by Caccini and his contemporaries.

   regards

   Martyn

   PS Also see my recent message about email protocol, with which you may
   not agree...

   --- On Sun, 18/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
 earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 11:11

   Dear Martyn,
   I understand that there is a problem with the theorbo in A, in
   Caccini's 'Reggami.'
   According to Alessandro Striggio the elder Caccini could accompany from
   a bass on the lute and harpsichord. So, what would be the right
   instrument/tuning for this song?
   Lex
  Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
   pieta'
  where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
  octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
   the
  piece.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Monica,

   But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes (such
   as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
   substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar

   As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 16/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
 earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Chris Despopoulos
 despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 18:05

   - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 2:17 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
   earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
  Thanks Chris.
   
   Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
  it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
  (stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my
   view on
  guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
  Marini's position too.
   Sorry - but I think that you are both mistaken.   You seem to be trying
   to argue that any form of accompaniment can be regarded as realizing a
   bass line.   Interpreting terminology and practice in this way is
   meaningless.
   A basso continuo is what is says it is - a continuous, clearly
   identifiable bass line from which the accompaning intervals (rather
   than triads) are calculated.  Occasionally, as you say the notes, which
   appear in the bass part may not always be reproduced exactly for
   practical reasons, but there is always a clear bass part - not one
   concealed or implied incidentally in a series of major and minor
   triads.
   It is probably true that because the baroque guitarists did think
   solely in terms of basis triadic harmony that it had some influence in
   the way that understanding of harmony developed in the early 17th
   century.But that is a different matter.
   Regards
   Monica
  --- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos
   [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
  wrote:
   
From: Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
   Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica
   Hall
[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08
   
  I thought one of the significant points of the period was a
   transition
  to harmonic vs voice thinking.  And that the guitar was well
  positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition.  So
   whether we
  call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to
   consider
  alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
  Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization.  I
  look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
  with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic
   progressions.
  The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
  different from what I would choose to do.
  One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
  published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
  Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering,
   addition
  or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation.  The Sanz book
   is
  viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
  exactly as written, for example.  With Roncali I was chastised for
   not
  improvising.  So why would alfabetos be any different?But does
   that
  make them any less realizations of the bass?  If we're talking
   about
  pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
  cud
   
   __
   
  From: Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Monica Hall [10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
  earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the
   requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
  lowest
note on the guitar:  I guess we'll just have to agree

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Lex,

   A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to be
   realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where the
   tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
   but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
   line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural is
   also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
   a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
   there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an octave
   higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
   singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a d
   and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
   Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per pieta'
   where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
   octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in the
   piece.

   Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
   even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
   apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives examples
   in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
   transposition for chromatic notes.

   rgds

   Martyn


   --- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
 to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58

   Dear Martyn,
   Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
   the
   other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
   problem, but do we know how they solved that?
   Lex
   ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
   together
   with your newest posts?
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
   earlier
   question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   
  Thanks Monica,
   
  But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes
   (such
  as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
  substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
   
  As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..
   
  rgds
   
  Martyn

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you for this Eloy.

   But, of course, it might be said that 6 guitars, percussion and conch
   shell is already excessive. The question is: what evidence do we have
   that such instruments, and in such numbers, were expected by JG de
   Padilla and his auditors in contemporary performances of his setting of
   Missa Ego flos campi.

   Perhaps they were commonly employed, but are there any early records of
   this?

   Martyn


--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
 earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 19:35

  Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected
   a
  strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
   there
  even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
  fashionable performances of  South American sacred settings?
   
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
   perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
   Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable
   performances
   of  South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my
   mind
   is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa
   Ego
   flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes  6 guitar
   players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
   think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
   movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal
   version
   of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
   The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
   instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6
   matched
   Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway,
   I
   can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
   Cheers
   eloy
   
  We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
  found in some modern performances of solo songs.
   
Yes indeed!
   
Monica
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Monica,

   It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
   of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the lowest
   note on the guitar:  I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
   this.

   Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also applies
   to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
 to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17

   Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
   earlier
   question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
  Hmmm...  Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
  exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line?  Of
  course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
   theorbo
  continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
  because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
   register
  (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
   some
  of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
  anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
   Eb
  will have to be taken at the octave higher (and  above the second
   and
  third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
   elswhere
  in the work.
   I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
   early
   17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto accompaniments.
   
  A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
   bass
  note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar
   has
  bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if
   not
  then elsewhere in the full chord.
   The point is that it that it may not do.   The bass is the lowest
   part.
   We, and others, have often pointed
  out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
  outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than
   a
  contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this
   isn't a
  realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
  harmonies implied/required by the bass.
   That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I
   don't
   think that it is anyone elses.
   Of course, a melodic bass
  instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the
   discussion
  sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass
   with
  the guitar...
   I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do
   not
   think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with the
   alfabeto - indead if it were in some instances it would create
   problems.
   Here is his observation  Note that  in some places
  you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line.
   This
  is because it is the wish of the author to  accompany the voice in
   as
  many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
  requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of  the
  other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances.
  I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
   It may be a valid realization depending on the way you chose to define
   realization but it is not a realization of the bass line.
   Regards
   Monica
  .
  --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
   to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
   
  - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
  [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Monica Hall [2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex
   Eisenhardt
  [4][8]eisenha...@planet.nl
  Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
  earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and
   for
  three
 voices along with  an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the
   guitar
 alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Chris.

Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
   it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
   (stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my view on
   guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
   Marini's position too.

   regards
   martyn
   --- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   wrote:

 From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
 to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall
 mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08

   I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
   to harmonic vs voice thinking.  And that the guitar was well
   positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition.  So whether we
   call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
   alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
   Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization.  I
   look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
   with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
   The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
   different from what I would choose to do.
   One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
   published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
   Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
   or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation.  The Sanz book is
   viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
   exactly as written, for example.  With Roncali I was chastised for not
   improvising.  So why would alfabetos be any different?But does that
   make them any less realizations of the bass?  If we're talking about
   pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
   cud
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
   earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 Thanks Monica,
 It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
 of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
   lowest
 note on the guitar:  I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
 this.
 Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
   applies
 to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
 regards
 Martyn
 --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
   to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
 Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
 earlier
 question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   Hmmm...  Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
   exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line?  Of
   course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
 theorbo
   continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
   because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
 register
   (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
 some
   of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
   anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
 Eb
   will have to be taken at the octave higher (and  above the second
 and
   third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
 elswhere
   in the work.
 I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
 early
 17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto
   accompaniments.
 
   A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
 bass
   note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the
   guitar
 has
   bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but
   if
 not
   then elsewhere in the full chord.
 The point is that it that it may not do.  The bass is the lowest
 part.
 We, and others, have often pointed
   out that the peculiar stringing

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for three
   voices along with  an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
   alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel Clavicembalo, et
   altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied by a
   solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found for
   just  basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
   think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso continuo
   part in this case.

   Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
   strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
   even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
   fashionable performances of  South American sacred settings?

   We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
   found in some modern performances of solo songs.

   Martyn

   --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
 earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
 eisenha...@planet.nl
 Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44

   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
   question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
   purposes.   I
   don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
   collection of
   solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part.
   What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music
   in
   several parts - (which in the  context I think it is appropriate to
   refer to
   as polyphony).
   The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
   Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli.   Surely the Pope would have had a
   fit if
   the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously
   throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!).   This
   is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only
   likely
   accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or
   other
   bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
   The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
   accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in
   the
   Intermedii.
   In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with
   elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today.
   Monica
  Dear Lex,
   
  Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
  produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no
   reason to
  suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems
   unlikely
  however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of
   the
  instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
  Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations
   on
  the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
   
  rgds
   
  Martyn
   
  --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
   wrote:
   
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
   
   Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the
   chitarra
  spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
   But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about
   figured
  bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
  'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
  guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have
   considered
  the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
  even performed on the guitar.
  
   I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
  Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
  Cetera and the Pandora.   These are all instruments which are
   capable
  of filling in the harmony to some extent.   There is no reason to
  suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
  point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina.   It could be
  strumming away

[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Hmmm...  Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
   exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line?  Of
   course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many theorbo
   continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
   because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower register
   (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than some
   of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
   anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low Eb
   will have to be taken at the octave higher (and  above the second and
   third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E elswhere
   in the work.

   A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the bass
   note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the guitar has
   bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but if not
   then elsewhere in the full chord.  We, and others, have often pointed
   out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
   outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather than a
   contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this isn't a
   realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
   harmonies implied/required by the bass.  Of course, a melodic bass
   instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the discussion
   sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass with
   the guitar... Here is his observation  Note that  in some places
   you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This
   is because it is the wish of the author to  accompany the voice in as
   many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
   requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of  the
   other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances.
   I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.

   regards

   Martyn



   .
   --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
 earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37

   - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
   [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
   Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
   earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
  The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and for
   three
  voices along with  an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the guitar
  alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
   Clavicembalo, et
  altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs accompanied
   by a
  solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options found
   for
  just  basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I do
  think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso
   continuo
  part in this case.
   Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the
   Kapsberger villanelle. However  I don't think that it is correct to
   call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it is
   clearly not a realization of  the bass part.   Even if the alfabeto
   actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the bass
   part or the harmony in the correct inversions.  It won't usually even
   reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3 suspension.   And as
   far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think these
   are alternatives rather than intended all to play together.
  Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
  strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
   there
  even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
  fashionable performances of  South American sacred settings?
   Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps
   could tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
  We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
  found in some modern performances of solo songs.
   Yes indeed!
   Monica
   
  --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
   to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex

[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Lex,

   Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
   produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no reason to
   suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems unlikely
   however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
   instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
   Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations on
   the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.

   rgds

   Martyn

   --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51

Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra
   spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured
   bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
   'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
   guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered
   the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
   even performed on the guitar.
   
I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
   Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
   Cetera and the Pandora.   These are all instruments which are capable
   of filling in the harmony to some extent.   There is no reason to
   suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
   point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina.   It could be
   strumming away in there!
   Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a
   playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and
   sonorous.'
   The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the
   cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than
   one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered
   possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this
   was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and
   chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely
   however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
   instrument, was intended
   Lex
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you - you are either incorrect, mistaken or have misread what I
   wrote

   MH
   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:

 From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 15:31

   On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:49:05 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Indeed - this supplements what I wrote below - thank you.
   Sorry, but I'm utterly impressed by your fallacious reasoning :-/ Can
   we please stick to the sources? So, in 1589 they had to send for
   musicians from Naples to get guitar players. A true sign of the
   guitar's popularity in central Italy arround that time ... These
   inermedii can't be taken as typical performance situations at all,
   the try to present the most exotic range of art available (or
   affordable)

   Presumably after 1589 the guitar (5 course alla spagnola) became
   better
   known in the North.
   Yes, for any definition of after 1589  ...
The point is that plucking and strumming play was known throughout
the early (Foscarini) and later 17th century so it is not possible
on the available evidence to state that Aggazzari expected strumming
alone - even if he allowed the guitar in basso continuo...
   No, the _available_ evidence doesn't allow such a conclusion. That
   would
   be more of wishful thinking or fancy. When talking about Aggazzari,
   why not, for a change, actually use Aggazzari as a source of
   information?
   (gosh!). His statement is actually pretty clear:
   [P.3 ] two kinds of instruments: fundament and ornament. 'chitarrina'
   is in the second group. Instuments of the fundament (attempt to) play
   the voices of the composition. They _lead_ and _support_ (nota bene:
   Aggazzari, like his contemporaries, does not talk of chords at all.
   Contino playing is an abreviated kind of colla-parte playing).
   [P.4] Some string instruments can play perfetta (full) harmony,
   others
   (like the chitarrina) can't. This most likely refers to the range of
   the
   instruments mentioned.
   [P.8] about the instruments that don't play fundament: their purpose
   is purely decorative (per ornar). The decorate the melody and mix
   with the voices (of the written composition):  ... has to compose new
   upper voices upon the bass and new an varied passagi and
   counterpoints There's no doubt whatsoever that Aggazzari is _not_
   talking about strumming _or_ plucking a baroque guitar.
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

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[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Monica,

   I'm really not saying these things are guitars - simply that the
   possibility exists that they are - or are not!
   And, yes, I don't rely on Tyler's opinions and have read Meucci's
   article and agree with much of what he says.

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 16:02

   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
   guitar
   [was Re: Capona?]}
  a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
   Neapolitan
  publication).
   The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
   according to
   Meucci.   Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della Chitarra
   a
   sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana.   It is a 4-course
   instrument
   with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che
   in
   esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
   Liuto. He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
   Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
   describing
   was probably the same as the Chitarrina  alla Napoletana called for in
   the
   Intermedia i.e. a small lute.   The chitarrina alla spagnola was
   probably the 5-course Spanish guitar.   In 1689 these instruments had
   to be imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
   in common use in northern Italy.
   Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
   Quintern;
   the quintern is a small lute.
   Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for  a 4-course
   instrument
   are also probably for a Chitarrina  alla Napoletana - they are
   notated in Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
   You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called
   Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars.   Unfortunately James Tyler
   hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
   4-course guitar isn't very helpful.
   Monica
  --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
[5]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
   
  We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
  Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware.   Only
   one
  year
  after Montesardo.   Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
  about
  1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions
   was
  printed
  in 1640.
  I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was  familiar with the
  chitarra
  spagnuola and had it in mind
  when he wrote his book.   And he includes the chitarrina amongst
   the
  instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line.   I
  can't
  see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all.   It was surely
   a
  small
  lute?
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: Martyn Hodgson [1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Vihuelalist [2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu;
  [3][9]eisen...@planet.nl; R.
  Mattes [4][10]r...@mh-freiburg.de
  Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
  guitar
  [was Re: Capona?]}
  
  
 Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
  'albeit
 later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources
   are
  not
 contemporary with Agazzari.  And of course you're quite right
   they
  do
 not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware.  The point
   is
  that
 plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
  (Foscarini)
 and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
  evidence
 to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he
  allowed
 the guitar in basso continuo...
  
 MH
  
 --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes [5][11]r...@mh-freiburg.de
   wrote:
  
   From: R. Mattes [6][12]r...@mh-freiburg.de
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
  Agazzari
   guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   To: Martyn Hodgson [7][13]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
  Vihuelalist
   [8][14]vihuela

[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Monica,

   Yes, we both seem to agree that the chitarra italiana was probably a
   small instrument.

   But why you suppose that  Millioni  himself thought the
   4-course  instrument  referred to as il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
   Italiana was a  small lute rather than  a small guitar is not clear.
   I'm aware of the Vocabolario della Crusca reference. But the parallel
   in uncertainty may be likened to how the English called the small
   guitar a gittern,  which for many years contributed to a mistaken
   identification. Perhaps 'chitarrino' could mean a small lute or a small
   guitar in Italy?

   Do you think the name 'chitarra' always needs the qualifier 'spagnola'
   before we can think an instrument is the larger 5 course guitar?

   But before getting too bogged down, the earlier question was whether
   the chitarra spagnola might be included as a continuo instrument, even
   by Agazzari.  You'll know 'Le stravaganze d'amore' of Corradi (Venice
   1616). This is an early 17thcentury source from a Northern Italian
   source and comprises songs for 'uni, due et tre voci' with alfabeto for
   the 'Chitarra alla Spagnola' as well as tablature for 'Chitarrone'.
   This source shows that this chitarra spagnola was tuned in a nominal e'
   top course ie the larger instrument. Since it is only a few years after
   Agazzari it certainly suggests that the instrument was at least a
   possibility to be included in his 'etcetera'  of basso continuo
   instruments even at such a relatively early date.

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 17:24

  Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
  things which I think need to  be clarified.
  The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
  instrument is referred to as   il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
   Italiana which suggests that it was a  small lute rather than  a
   4-course guitar.
  Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
  dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
  Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano.
  He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
  Italiana was a small lute.
  Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola
   and
  the chitarra napolitana.
  Stuart mentioned Calvi's book.   The pieces in tablature are
   preceded
  by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia,
   ma
  sono veramente per la Chitarra.   Although Meucci doesn't mention
   this
  instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small
  lute.   The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
  instrument.   No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
  You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course
  guitar.

  As ever
  Monica
  Original Message -
  From: Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  To: Martyn Hodgson [2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3][3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
  guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
  
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
  guitar
   [was Re: Capona?]}
  
 a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
  Neapolitan
 publication).
  
   The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
  according to
   Meucci.   Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
  Chitarra a
   sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana.   It is a 4-course
  instrument
   with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
  che in
   esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento
   del
  Liuto.
   He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
  
   Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
  describing
   was probably the same as the Chitarrina  alla Napoletana called
   for
  in the
   Intermedia i.e. a small lute.   The chitarrina alla spagnola was
   probably the 5-course Spanish guitar.   In 1689 these instruments
   had
  to be
   imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
   in
  common
   use in northern Italy.
  
   Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
   Quintern;
   the quintern is a small lute.
  
   Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for  a 4-course
  instrument

[VIHUELA] Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Lex.

   Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
   terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
   unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
   had Millioni's  four-course guitar, 'chitarrino'  in mind or the
   instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.

   But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit
   the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for
   basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that
   since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for
   embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than
   the instruments he did singled out).  However, I'm certainly not
   advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst
   some modern continuo groupings..

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 16:54

   In the anonymous collection Conserto vago (published in Rome in 1645)
   there is a part for a chitarrino a quatro corde alla napolitana, here
   probably used for lute type, in plucked textures. Its tuning, with a
   fifth between the third and fourth courses, is essentially different
   from that of the chitarra spagnuola. On the other hand, in Pietro
   Millioni's Corona del primo, secondo e terzo libro d'intavolatura di
   chitarra spagnola (1631) a four-course guitar is mentioned, the
   chitarrino, overo chitarra italiana, tuned like the first four courses
   of the common chitarra spagnuola. To be able to play the chords of
   alfabeto (from the tablature examples at the alfabeto chart) on this
   four-course instrument, one has to leave out the figures of the fifth
   course.
   By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not
   link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni's chitarrino
   Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mindaEURhand
   plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose
   that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the
   violin and pandora, which are mentioned in the same breath.
   best wishes, Lex
   - Original Message - From: wikla [1]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
   [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
   Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
   
Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know,
   chitarrino, 4
course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times
   of
Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course
   that
does not exclude its existence... ;-)
   
best regards,
   
Arto
   
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
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   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Lex

   Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was not
   unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not convinced we
   can interpret his description as excluding BC using full chords only -
   eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, allbeit later, sources
   (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing guitar BC
   employing only the plucking (lute) style. Corbetta in his intabulated
   vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly restrained: using plucking
   play with the occasional strummed chord.

   Martyn





   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: eisen...@planet.nl eisen...@planet.nl
 Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
 Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55

   Hi,
   I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
   It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the way
   the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the end,
   there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the guitar
   (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina could
   be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
   Lex
 __

   Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
   Aan: Vihuelalist; eisen...@planet.nl
   Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari
   guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   Thanks Lex.

   Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
   terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
   unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
   had Millioni's  four-course guitar, 'chitarrino'  in mind or the
   instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.

   But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully omit
   the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable for
   basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I suggested that
   since he does not list the instrument amongst those suitable for
   embellishment then he did think it suitable for continuo (if rarer than
   the instruments he did singled out).  However, I'm certainly not
   advocating even more banging and thrashing about as fashionable amongst
   some modern continuo groupings..

   regards

   Martyn

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: 'albeit
   later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are not
   contemporary with Agazzari.  And of course you're quite right they do
   not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware.  The point is that
   plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early (Foscarini)
   and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available evidence
   to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he allowed
   the guitar in basso continuo...

   MH

   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:

 From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, eisen...@planet.nl
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44

   On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Thanks Lex
   
   Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar was
not   unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
convinced we   can interpret his description as excluding BC using
full chords only -   eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
 allbeit later, sources
   (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
guitar BC   employing only the plucking (lute) style.
   Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
   for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
   using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
   Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
   Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early baroque
   continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more careful
   in what sources we draw our information from.
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
Corbetta in
his intabulated   vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
restrained: using plucking   play with the occasional strummed chord.
   
   Martyn
   
   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1]eisen...@planet.nl
   [2]eisen...@planet.nl wrote:
   
 From: [3]eisen...@planet.nl [4]eisen...@planet.nl
 Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
 Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
   Vihuelalist
 [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
   
   Hi,
   I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
   It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, the
way   the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In the
end,   there were more composers who were criticizing the use of the
guitar
   (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked chitarrina
   could
   be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
   Lex
   
   __
   
   Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
   Aan: Vihuelalist; [8]eisen...@planet.nl
   Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
   Agazzari
   guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
   Thanks Lex.
   
   Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
   terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
   unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether Agazzari
   had Millioni's  four-course guitar, 'chitarrino'  in mind or the
   instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
   
   But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi purposefully
   omit
   the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as suitable
for   basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
suggested that   since he does not list the instrument amongst those
suitable for   embellishment then he did think it suitable for
continuo (if rarer than   the instruments he did singled out).
 However, I'm certainly not  advocating even more banging and
thrashing about as fashionable amongst   some modern continuo
   groupings..
   
   regards
   
   Martyn
   
   --
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   R. Mattes -
   Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
   [10]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar

[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree that
   nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in mind
   and whether he might have come accross the  chitarra spagnuola (and
   implied it in his 'etcetera').

   Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after
   Agazzari's writings
   but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or very similar term) seems to
   have been known even before then.  Christofano Malvezzi, in his
   publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes performers
   and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589.
   Cavalieri's acclaimed  ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria del
   Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita' and
   even lists the instruments they played:
'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla
   Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '.

   Does 'Chitarrina'  here really mean a not-guitar shaped instrument? I
   suggest we need
   to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of such
   terms at this time.  And does 'Chitarrina'  also necessarily imply a
   small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola'  or 'alla Napolettana') or is
   it a reference to a guitar generally in this source?
I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara Spagnuola (5
   course) and
   a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan
   publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the two
   ('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')?

   I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has
   also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list) sometime
   ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment - can
   you?

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex Eisenhardt
 eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49

   We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
   Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware.   Only one
   year
   after Montesardo.   Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
   about
   1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was
   printed
   in 1640.
   I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was  familiar with the
   chitarra
   spagnuola and had it in mind
   when he wrote his book.   And he includes the chitarrina amongst the
   instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line.   I
   can't
   see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all.   It was surely a
   small
   lute?
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu;
   [3]eisen...@planet.nl; R.
   Mattes [4]r...@mh-freiburg.de
   Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
   guitar
   [was Re: Capona?]}
   
   
  Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
   'albeit
  later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are
   not
  contemporary with Agazzari.  And of course you're quite right they
   do
  not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware.  The point is
   that
  plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
   (Foscarini)
  and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
   evidence
  to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he
   allowed
  the guitar in basso continuo...
   
  MH
   
  --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes [5]r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:
   
From: R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk,
   Vihuelalist
[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, [9]eisen...@planet.nl
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
   
  On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
   Thanks Lex
  
  Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar
   was
   not   unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
   convinced we   can interpret his description as excluding BC
   using
   full chords only -   eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
allbeit later, sources
  (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
   guitar BC   employing only the plucking (lute) style.
  Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
  for Agazzari-time

[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Indeed - this supplements what I wrote below - thank you.

   Presumably after 1589 the guitar (5 course alla spagnola) became better
   known in the North.

   MH

 From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 14:27

   Dear List
   I think the chitarra was unknown in Northern Italy, but not so much so
   in
   Naples. From Nina Treadwell's The chitarra spagnola and Italian
   monody,
   1589 to c. 1650:
   On March 18, 1589 three guitars arrived in Florence from the
   Spanish-ruled
   city of Naples, ordered by Emililo de' Cavalieri, overseer of artistic
   activities at the court of Ferdinand I de' Medici.  Cavalieri had a
   specific
   purpose for these instruments: to accompany the solo sections in the
   closing
   ballo of the sixth and last intermedio, composed as part of the wedding
   celebrations of Ferdinand and the granddaughter of Catharine de'
   Medici,
   Christine of Lorraine. The performance of a set of intermedi between
   the
   acts of a play was a characteristic part of such important
   celebrations.
   -Those of 1589 were originally performed in conjunction with Girolamo
   Bargagli^1s comedy La Pellegrina and were among the most magnificent of
   their
   kind. This reference to the guitar in the 1589 intermedi is the first
   extant
   record we have of the guitar's use in northern Italy.
   Cheers
   eloy
   
   Dear Monica,
   
   I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree
   that
   nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in
   mind
   and whether he might have come accross the  chitarra spagnuola
   (and
   implied it in his 'etcetera').
   
   Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after
   Agazzari's writings  but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or
   very similarterm) seems to

   have been known even before then.  Christofano Malvezzi, in his
   publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes
   performers
   and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589.
   Cavalieri's acclaimed  ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria
   del
   Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita'
   and
   even lists the instruments they played:
'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla
   Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '.
   
   Does 'Chitarrina'  here really mean a not-guitar shaped
   instrument? I
   suggest we need
   to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of
   such
   terms at this time.  And does 'Chitarrina'  also necessarily imply
   a
   small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola'  or 'alla Napolettana')
   or is
   it a reference to a guitar generally in this source?
I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara
   Spagnuola (5
   course) and
   a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
   Neapolitan
   publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the
   two
   ('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')?
   
   I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has
   also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list)
   sometime
   ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment
   - can
   you?
   
   Martyn







   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
   
 From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
 guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
 To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lex
   Eisenhardt
 [5]eisenha...@planet.nl, R. Mattes [6]r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
   
   We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
   have.
   Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware.   Only
   one
   year
   after Montesardo.   Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
   about
   1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions
   was
   printed
   in 1640.
   I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was  familiar with the
   chitarra
   spagnuola and had it in mind
   when he wrote his book.   And he includes the chitarrina amongst
   the
   instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass
   line.   I
   can't
   see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all.   It was
   surely a
   small
   lute?
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Vihuelalist [2][8]vihuela

[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?

[Martyn Hodgson]

I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his
   etc...

   Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course
   instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits
   the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies  that the guitar
   does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments covered
   by the etc

   But I do agree that the modern practice of some groups involving much
   banging and thrashing about is probably misplaced:  just because
   Agazzari  lists a number of instruments doesn't mean they all play at
   the same time!

   MH
   --- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 9:24

I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into
   the
sensibilities of 17th century players.
   
Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il
   basso',
published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very
   clear
that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't
   be
too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the
   sensibilities
of 17th century players as you wrote!
   
I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see
 [1]http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html
   
   No chitarra spagnuola (or darbuka) on his list
   rgds, Lex
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Lex

   Well, I don't have a facsimile of Agazzari to hand so took the
   (translated) text from this recommended ('excellent') translation (see
   below) which gives 'chitarrino' .  Does Agazzari write 'chitarrina' in
   the original source?  And what is a 'chitarrina' rather than, say, a
   'chitarra'  if not a smaller instrument?

   regards

   Martyn


   ...an excellent [sic] version of Agazzari's article
   by [1]Bernhard Lang in the Werner Icking Music Archive! All the text is
   in Italian, English and German!

   ... I must first ... classify them [instruments] ... into instruments
   like a foundation and instruments like ornaments. Like foundation are
   those which guide and support the whole body of of the voices and
   instruments of the consort; such are the the organ, harpsichord, etc.,
   and similarly when there are few voices, the lute, theorbo, harp, etc.
   Like ornaments are those which, in playful and conrapuntal fashion,
   make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous, namely the lute, theorbo,
   harp, lirone, cithern, spinet, chitarrino, violin, pandora, and the
   like.

   --- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 10:03

   
   I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his
  etc...
   
  Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course
  instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits
  the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies  that the
   guitar
  does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments
   covered
  by the etc
   Agazzari says: 'chitarrina', not 'chitarrino'.
   What is a chitarrina? Was it strummed, like the chitarra spagnola?
   Lex
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/Agazzari.html
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Lex,

   I agree with Chris:  thumb-out does not inhibite playing through both
   strings of a double course.

   Neither need (or should)  the thumb and finger ends meet using
   thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the fingers.
   Probably the best historic representation of this from around the time
   (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute) in
   the well known painting and engraving.

   Martyn
   --- On Sat, 3/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   wrote:

 From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
 To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl, vl
 vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
 Date: Saturday, 3 December, 2011, 15:28

  I have to take issue with the idea that thumb-out will tend toward
   an
  upward stroke (if I understand what you mean by thumb-out).  Indeed,
  I've always played thumb-out, coming to Baroque guitar from the
   modern
  guitar.  One thing I have always trained my hand to do (thumb
   included)
  is to push down through the string.  I find that I can do this on a
  double course as well with decent results (well, one needs other
  judges, doesn't one).  I find that I have to modulate that a bit,
   and
  reduce the downward stroke.  But the point is, with thumb-out I have
   to
  cultivate a tendency for an upward stroke, not try to overcome it.
  Anecdotal, but that's my experience...  Thumb-out puts me in the
  opposite situation from what you describe.
  cud
__
  From: Lex Eisenhardt [1]eisenha...@planet.nl
  To: vl [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow
  [3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
  Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 6:12 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
  Given that the bourdon in any case will
  be slightly higher the the treble string as it is thicker it is
  not
  difficult to give it prominence where necessary.  A plain gut
  bourdon on the
  fifth is so thick that it is hard to miss!
  
Ed Durbrow
  That may seem so, but making use of the thumb outside
   technique--which
  I suppose was always done by part of the population, also on the
  lute--the fingers and the thumb sometimes will come very close to
   each
  other. In that situation it will be more difficult to avoid the
   thumb
  to strike in a somewhat upward direction (to avoid hitting the next
  course), and mainly touch the high octave. To play a real bass,
   which
  needs a good control of how we balance the two strings of a course,
   we
  better make sure to catch the low octave string, and make it sound
   loud
  enough.
  For the same reason it may be easier to play campanelas with thumb
   out.
  At least if you would like to single out the high octave strings.
  Lex
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Ta Lex,

   I'm not sure I'm getting this business of the thumb plucking up - I've
   presumed you mean away from the belly - but have I got this wrong?  If
   it is as I've been thinking you meant (ie plucking the string upwards -
   away from the belly) doesn't this lead to much slapping of strings onto
   the fingerboard/belly if plucked with any great vigour?

   Regarding what Mouton would do when plucking adjacent courses with
   thumb and fingers: I see no reason to suppose he'd not keep thumb out
   (as I do).

   rgds

   Martyn

   --- On Sun, 4/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
 To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Sunday, 4 December, 2011, 9:34

   Hi Martyn,
  I agree with Chris:  thumb-out does not inhibite playing through
   both
  strings of a double course.
   It makes it more difficult to go deeper into the low octave string than
   the high octave. What I said is that if thumb and fingers are close (at
   adjacent courses) there is the difficulty of both going deep into the
   course. If the thumb should go deep, to play a good bass, the fingers
   can easily miss the second string of the course. That is something
   Chris also seemed to conclude. In this respect thumb-in is is
   different.
  Neither need (or should)  the thumb and finger ends meet using
  thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the
   fingers.
  Probably the best historic representation of this from around the
   time
  (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute)
   in
  the well known painting and engraving.
   You mean the de Troy painting? What would Mouton have done when the
   thumb and fingers had to play adjacent courses?
   Lex
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks again Lex.

But if we pluck THROUGH the course, (ie parallel to the plane of the
   belly) one can achieve a much greater amplitude without the string
   slapping rattleing on the fingerboard/belly and thus will have a strong
   bass (as well as its octave) - as I think, the Old Ones  would have
   generally expected.

   Martyn
   --- On Sun, 4/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar
 bridges)
 To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Sunday, 4 December, 2011, 9:58

  I'm not sure I'm getting this business of the thumb plucking up -
   I've
  presumed you mean away from the belly - but have I got this wrong?
   If
  it is as I've been thinking you meant (ie plucking the string
   upwards -
  away from the belly) doesn't this lead to much slapping of strings
   onto
  the fingerboard/belly if plucked with any great vigour?
   Indeed in a slight angle away from the corpus (a guitar has a slender
   waist). I think I have seen many lutenists and guitarists doing that.
   This is probably one reason why most baroque guitarists have no clear
   bass when playing the (octave strung) fourth course.
   best, Lex

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re: Guitar bridges

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re:
 Guitar bridges
 To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 13:53

   Thanks for this Lex.

   One of my guitars does have bourdons on both the 5th and 4th course -
   but I mostly use this instrument for continuo and do, indeed, find the
   basses are pretty strong ('booming') - as I would wish in this context.

   In my view, campanella play is not as effective with this disposition
   as with an instrument without bourdons or just a bourdon on the 4th -
   but I guess you think differently.

   rgds
   Martyn

   --- On Wed, 30/11/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing (again - sigh) was Re:
 Guitar bridges
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Wednesday, 30 November, 2011, 12:18

   Dear Martyn,
  Hmm again  how can lowering the position of the high octave
   string
  of an octave pair (so that it lies significantly below the general
  string datum) not have an influence on the ease of playing just
   this
  string?
   Of course this requires to play a little more precise with the thumb.
   Which would need some exercice.
   But it makes it much easier to touch the couse so that it sounds like a
   bass. Which would mean that the balance of the high and low strings is
   optimal to make the high octave enhance the effect of the bass. Also
   when the strings are fixed in the 'normal' way it needs a really good
   control of the thumb stroke, to prevent the sound of high octave string
   from dominating over the bourdon.
  I'm also not sure about always having a booming lower bourdon
   randomly
  interspersed in a campanella scalic passage - but perhaps the Old
   Ones
  didn't mind - tho' I doubt it...
   Booming bourdons seems an exageration here. Hence my advice to try it
   for some time
  tho' again I did think your
  position was that you generally liked to have a low bass because of
  your belief in the necessity of complete melodic bass lines - ie
   basses
  that didn't jump the octave due to exigencies of the stringing.
   Have I
  mistook your position? - in which case I'm sorry for it.
   No problem.
   My ideas are a bit different from that. I would argue that if we use
   bourdons--because we think that a certain composer had them--we should
   better make them heard. This doesn't mean that we should just stop
   thinking of the musical function that the notes on these courses would
   have, high or low, in a specific situation.
   best wishes,
   Lex

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[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thank you - very clear.

   Of course, it'll make plucking just the high octave a bit trickier if
   playing close(ish) to the bridge but, conversely, will make playing
   just the bass of the pair a bit easier...

 Martyn
   --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
 To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 9:41

   Eh, I'll try.
   If you make a normal loop and keep some 10 cms extra string length
   'behind the bridge' you can pull it again through the slot (in the
   direction of the neck). Then make a loop _over_ the string and pull
   back through the slot again. Fix it on the bridge in the 'normal' way,
   coming from the back of the bridge. This can of course only be done
   with slots. May even be a reason why they are there.
   - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
   [3]eisenha...@planet.nl
   Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:00 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
   
  Thank you Lex:  It seems an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I
   follow
  how you actually do this ie tie the second loop/knot. Could you
   please
  explain further?
   
  rgds
   
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References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges

[Martyn Hodgson]

 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
 To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 14:10


   Hmmm  .. we agree that it makes plucking just the lower of the octave
   pair easier if one wishes to do this (eg possibly in scalic passages
   from the third to the 4th course), But it makes things like campanella
   play trickier - where one wishes much of the sound to be in the same
   register as the upper course notes of the passage.  So I'm really not
   so sure about the general desirability of what you suggest below - this
   seems to me to be advocating the dubious position of always requiring a
   low 'bass' line rather than simply accepting the unique idiomatic sound
   of the period instrument.

   regards

   Martyn


   --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
 To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
 hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 13:40

  Of course, it'll make plucking just the high octave a bit trickier
   if
  playing close(ish) to the bridge but, conversely, will make playing
  just the bass of the pair a bit easier...
   or actually not 'just' the bass, but it will be really easier to give
   more emphasis on the lower string of the pair, to make it sound like a
   bass.
   Lex

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[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be
   that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century,
   especially by French makers;  Italian makers seemingly preferring a
   bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good
   extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a
   highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other
   decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal.  Various
   Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are
   orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all
   bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from
   clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges.

   One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of
   string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very
   significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot
   since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string
   passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom.  A
   more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the
   bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all
   round

   Martyn




   --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29

  This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar
   -
  about bridges.
  Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when
  they are tied to the bridge.
  Is this usual on baroque guitars.   Is there any standard
  arrangement.
  Monica
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[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Hello you two,

   I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the
   principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you
   aim to base an entire case on Carre's book

   rgds

   Martyn

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book
   was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or
   added between September 1670 and October 1671.
   I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after
   being granted the licences because publications were subject to
   censorship.  This was certainly the case in Spain  I am not sure of the
   details in France.
   Like for example the preface.
Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If
   Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed
   the advice on the stringing of the fourth course.
   Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial.  It doesn't prove
   that Corbetta disagreed with Carre.
Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato.
   Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed
   - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing..  But quite a
   few of them could be strummed.  A lot of the chords are in the wrong
   inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd
   course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them.  The
   first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where
   it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and
   so on.  I can't list them all.  Yes - he does seem to be confused as to
   which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his
   common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them.
   Very
different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and
   Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book.
   Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta.
   Monica
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[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........

[Martyn Hodgson]

   . I'm still holding mine for the revelation of the principal
   issue..

   MH

   From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
   To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall
   mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 17:02
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.
   I knew I shouldn't have held my breath
   RT
   From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
One other small point - I said
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References

   1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   Well - two extracts from what you have just written:

   - If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass
   line
   without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there
   is no
   indication either that this is what Marini intended.

   - .but as I have said already there is no reason to think that
   just playing the
   bass line is an option.

   These sum up the problem: in that you move directly from their being
   'no prohibition' to saying 'that just playing the bass line' is not an
   option by way of an assumption this was not allowed by Marini.   As
   already said, I beg to differ with you on this - as I do with your wish
   to avoid perfectly acceptable passing dissonance (one of the joys in
   music of this period)

   regards

   Martyn

   PS You write What you need to consider is how you would realize the
   bassline if the
   alfabeto were not there.

   But -  I addressed this very issue -perhaps you missed where I
   mentioned the intrusive Eb (in the Cb/6 chord] if the bass was realised
   and the alfabeto also played.   This is precisely why I very clearly
   stated that I should not expect a realised bass if the guitar played
   the alfabeto, since a continuo player (theorbo/keyboard) would normally
   play C b/6 rather than Dmaj over the C (- as I said).  But by asking
   for a Dmaj chord here (with a 7th in the bass) Marini (or whoever)
   certainly provides a good alternative. The chord (Alfabeto .C.)
   combined with the bass line (alone) is then D7/4 - perfectly
   acceptable  and then cadencing through D to the tonic G.


   M

   --- On Wed, 11/5/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 14:49

   Well - I'm not sure that there is any point in reviving this discussion
   -
   especially as I disagree with most of what you say.   But for what it
   is
   worth...
  1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the
  bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto.
   If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass
   line
   without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there
   is no
   indication either that this is what Marini intended.
  Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly
   allow
  such a possibility However, I think you believe this note means
   that no
other instrument
  should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ.
   What it suggests to me is that he has provided alternative
   accompaniments.  Otherwise in order to accommodate the different
   instruments he would have had to provided a simpler bass line.  The
   idea was that the singer accompanied themselves in this repertoire -
   not that there was a group of continuo players.   Here is the quote
   again - for reference.
   Note that  in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit
   with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author  to
   accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while  by
   paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is
   constrained   by
   those of  the other, since the guitar lacks manyproper
   consonances.
  2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il
   verno
  where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different
  terminology and call it the first inversion of a  minor 7th chord
   on
  the 2nd degree of the scale  - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong'
   with
  just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the
   voice
  to give the overall 6/5 chord
   Nor do I if the guitar is the only accompanying instrument.
whereas, if I understand you correctly,
  you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a
   Dm
  chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such).
   No - I don't think that.  What I disagree with is the idea that the
   guitar
   should play an F major chord against the G in the bass.   I think it is
   essential to include a D in the chord over the G bass because this
   defines
   it as a dominant chord.  And probably omit the A which is the dominant
   9th.
   (I'll send you my transcription separately).
  Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of Desio di
  sguardi on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in
   the
  guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of
   the
  chord.'  This is just a similar situation as in Il verno -
   It isn't the same. In Il verno the bass line
   arrives at the root of the dominant before the 4-3 suspension in the
   guitar
   part.  In Desio si guardi

[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar culture and habits?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   But my dear Arto

   - there really is no problem between debating conflicting views and
   'friendship' - you can have both.  It's only when personal abuse
   appears (as it did in some Lute list exchanges a number of years ago)
   that we ought to throw in the towel.
   However, I do agree that the medium of email is not the best to conduct
   these discussions - but what do you suggest - not raising any such
   issues at all?

   regards

   M
   --- On Wed, 11/5/11, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:

 From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar culture and habits?
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 22:10

   Dear flat back lutenists,
   I just read:
I did :-) And I don't understand your edition.
Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more
   counterpoint.
   Here we go again! Dear baroque guitarists, why cannot you be friends
   supporting and adding up each others' brilliant ideas - as we lutenists
   do
   (or are we really?) - instead of fighting of every 7th and its
   resolution,
   and every borduna/ocave in stringing? Is this actually a phenomenon of
   (modern) classical guitar culture brought to b-guitar world, too? I
   still
   remember my old guitarring times, when I was very Yepesian and was
   fighting against the Segovians, who were fighting against us.
   Something
   similiar here?
   To me we round back lutenists are much more liberal (well, at least
   relatively, compared to b-guitarists) in accepting different ways of
   making
   our music and stringing our instruments, etc. What could be the
   explanation? Is the 5 course guitar really so critical a vehicle, or
   does
   the Segovian - not Segovian (or Sor-Guiliani?) contradiction affect
   still
   the guitarists converted from modern guitar to baroque guitar?
   Positively,
   Arto
   PS I suppose the 5 course guitar was actually an extremely free and
   wild
   instrument - used as is and as wished here and there by good and
   bad
   players. I would recommend anything goes. Don't be too clever, play and
   strum interestingly... I guess that is most authentic... ;-)
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[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   On going through my backlog of messages, I see you sent a couple
   further to our discussion Marini's Scherzi 1622 whilst I was away.

   In general I think we seem to agree on many points, except:

   1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the
   bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto.
   Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow
   such a possibility by remarking that the restrictions imposed by the
   stock alfabeto may not always allow the realised bass and guitar chords
   to be identical (the common 6/5 chords are a particular problem).
   However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument
   should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ.

   Note that  in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit
   with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author
   to   accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while
   by   paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is
   constrained   by those of  the other, since the guitar lacks many
   proper consonances.

   2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno
   where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different
   terminology and call it the first inversion of a  minor 7th chord on
   the 2nd degree of the scale  - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with
   just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice
   to give the overall 6/5 chord whereas, if I understand you correctly,
   you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm
   chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such).

   Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of Desio di
   sguardi on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the
   guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the
   chord.'  This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - M (or the
   jobbing guitarist) simply didn't have the alfabeto available (as he
   tells us). But please note that if the guitar played alfabeto I would
   not expect the bass to be realised (ie harmony filled out) so the
   intrusive Eb (I presume this is what you particularly object to) would
   not appear...

   regards as ever

   Martyn



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[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Hello Monica,

   I've just returned from an extended Easter break and am catching up
   with emails, but this is more interesting than most

   Pitch standards come first to mind when thinking of any reason why the
   guitar part
   and the keyboard part should be a tone higher than the others. In
   short, if the chitarra.
   and the spinetta were generally kept at a tone below other instruments
   they would need such a part to enable them to play with the other
   instruments. Perhaps being more for domestic use than for formal
   concerts and thus not requiring so much 'brightness' might explain this
   practice.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 9/5/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
 To: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 9 May, 2011, 17:49

  Yes - that seems very likely.   Singers/players would be listed in
  payrolls under just one heading.   Multi tasking.   Out of 16 people
  listed 13 are singers.
  Having looked more closely at the guitar part - it doesn't look very
  suitable for guitar - it goes down to E below the bass stave in
   places
  although these could be played an octave higher.   The guitar part
  seems to be also for the spinetta - either/or perhaps.
  Has anyone tried to fit the parts together?   Can anyone think of
   any
  reason why the guitar part and the keyboard part should be a tone
  higher than the others?
  Interesting.
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: [1]Rockford Mjos
  To: [2]Monica Hall
  Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
  Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 5:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitar continuo example
  If we are looking for possible guitarists to take that second
  hand-plucked part, Reggio comes to mind, though listed in the court
  payroll as a bass (singer) [See STMF 1961, p. 308]
  Kenneth Sparr had this comment:
  During the period 1652-1654 Queen Christine of Sweden had a company
   of
  Italian musicians and actors employed. Among these musicians you
   find
  the theorbist and guitarist Angiol Michele Bartolotti as well as the
  singer, lutenist and guitarist Pietro Francesco Reggio. 
  [4][1]http://www.tabulatura.com/SWEGUIT.htm
  -- R
  On May 9, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
  Thanks for sharing the info with us.   Your delving into this
  collection is enormously useful.
  It does look as if the guitar is supposed to be playing along with
  everyone else.  But  the list of artists in Albrici's ensemble paid
   in
  1653
  includes Bartolotti as the only theorbo player,  one
   violinist/violist
  and one keyboard player.   All of the rest of the artists seem to be
  singers. Perhaps they also played various instruments.
  Monica
  - Original Message - From: Rockford Mjos
  [5][2]rm...@comcast.net
  To: [6][3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Cc: Lex Eisenhardt [7][4]eisenha...@planet.nl
  Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 5:38 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar continuo example
  While browsing the online Duben collection I stumbled upon a
   Sinfonia
  by Albrici with a part listed for Chitarra.
  It brought to mind Lex's inquiries about specific mention/uses of
   the
  guitar as a continuo instrument.
  Sinfonia a 6./Primo Tono./di/Sig:r Vincenzo Albrici./1654.
  You can have a look here:
  [8][5]http://www2.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource.php?Select_Dn
   r 66
  On part 08 click on Browse Part. It's standard bass clef notation
  with figures.
  -- R
  --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
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   References
  1. mailto:[7]rm...@comcast.net
  2. mailto:[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  3. mailto:[9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. [10]http://www.tabulatura.com/SWEGUIT.htm
  5. mailto:[11]rm...@comcast.net
  6. mailto:[12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
  7. mailto:[13]eisenha...@planet.nl
  8.
   [14]http://www2.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource.php?Select_Dnr
  9. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. http://www.tabulatura.com/SWEGUIT.htm
   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm...@comcast.net
   3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   5. http://www2.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource.php?Select_Dnr
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm...@comcast.net
   8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   9. 

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Ralf,

   Prima la musica is a very reputable small publishing firm (one man I
   think - Brian Clark) producing limited runs of specialist early music
   editions.  I'd guess the ARR tag is used, as by other commercial
   publishers, to try and ensure they are paid a royalty when anyone uses
   their edition for public performance or commercial recording.  This
   practice has, I think,  become even more widespread since the court
   case a few years ago involving Hyperion records.

   I'm not taking sides - merely giving what may be the reason for the
   practice.

   MH

   --- On Mon, 9/5/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:

 From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
 To: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net, Monica Hall
 mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 9 May, 2011, 19:53

   On Mon, 9 May 2011 12:56:20 -0500, Rockford Mjos wrote
Kremberg and others assume a guitar tuned in D so, of course, a
transposing part would mean thinking E-tuned guitar shapes on a D
instrument (for example).
   And the spinetta is also a transposing instrument?
   Might well be parts written for instruments at different pitch levels
   (not unheard of even in Bach's time).
When I play continuo on guitar I transpose out of range bass lines
(in my head) as needed.
   Looking at the parts, I think there's plenty of bass already.
I also wonder about the Tacet instructions. On some parts I see
Spinetta tacet, but not chitarra tacet. In the shared chitarra/
spinetta part Spinetta tacet appears to be crossed out.
   
I came across the beginning here, though it does not show the
Spinetta to be a transposing part, nor that Chitarra is also listed
(first!) on that part. (Perhaps preface material or edition notes
address these oversights.)
[1]http://www.primalamusica.com/PDFs/APR09/ALB001.pdf
[2]http://www.primalamusica.com/albrici-3030-0.html  [chitarra not
mentioned here, either]
   What an obnoxious edition! All rights reserved - yeah, right!
   They probably bought the performance rights from Signore Albrici
   himself.
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.primalamusica.com/PDFs/APR09/ALB001.pdf
   2. http://www.primalamusica.com/albrici-3030-0.html
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Ralf,

   I recall that the heart of the Hyperion case was that the editor had
   introduced new material into the edition by virtue of the
   new typesetting and perhaps there were also corrections/performance
   practice notes and the like - I can't recall the exact details.

   Many of us were, and remain, puzzled at the ruling and for a short time
   it seemed that Hyperion (a fairly small specialist label) might have to
   close (its costs were quite significant). Happily that proved not to be
   the case.

   Finally,  'All rights reserved' refers to rights assigned to such a
   publication by the law: it is by virtue of such legal rulings that
   publishers hold these rights.  If you're interested in the bacground
   and legal arguments, there are summaries of the case, known as Sawkins
   v Hyperion Records Ltd 2005, on various sites such as
[1]www.4-5graysinnsquare.co.uk/news/index.cfm?id=1391

regards

   Martyn




   --- On Tue, 10/5/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:

 From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Rockford Mjos
 rm...@comcast.net, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 10 May, 2011, 10:27

   On Tue, 10 May 2011 09:35:05 +0100 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote
Dear Ralf,
   
   Prima la musica is a very reputable small publishing firm (one
man I   think - Brian Clark) producing limited runs of specialist
early music   editions.
   This might well be - looking at their website gives that impreession.
   But ...
I'd guess the ARR tag is used, as by other commercial
   publishers, to try and ensure they are paid a royalty when anyone
uses   their edition for public performance or commercial recording.
 This   practice has, I think,  become even more widespread since
the court   case a few years ago involving Hyperion records.
   ... I still fail to see what gives them the right to do so.
   All rights reserved means what it says: _All rights_, not
   just you can't legaly photocopy this music.
   Royalties? A _composer_ (and a performer, in case of recordings)
   gets royalties, _not_ a publisher (note: in the US a composer might
   sell/sign over these rights to a publisher, but I doubt Sign. Albrici
   did this). They simply claim rights they do not hold.
   Does it matter? Unfortunately yes. Next time I perform this little gem
   in a public performance I have to prove to some dork from german
   GEMA that noone holds performance right on the piece. An a quick google
   will lead him to this edition (unfortunately, in Germany, thank's to
   the GEMA Vermutung one has to prove that some music is free, not
   the other way round, as it should be). If 'Prima la musica' is a member
   of some copyright association then GEMA might sue me (on behalf of
   Prima la Musica). Which might result in me having to counter-sue Prima
   la
   musica for unjustly claiming performance right - probably _not_ what
   they intended 

   I'm not taking sides - merely giving what may be the reason for
the   practice.
   I might sound grumpy but this seems to become a unhealthy habbit
   recently.
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
   MH
   
   --- On Mon, 9/5/11, R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:
   
 From: R. Mattes [3]r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
 To: Rockford Mjos [4]rm...@comcast.net, Monica Hall
 [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 9 May, 2011, 19:53
   
   On Mon, 9 May 2011 12:56:20 -0500, Rockford Mjos wrote
Kremberg and others assume a guitar tuned in D so, of course, a
transposing part would mean thinking E-tuned guitar shapes on a
Dinstrument (for example).   And the spinetta is also a
transposing instrument?   Might well be parts written for
instruments at different pitch levels
   (not unheard of even in Bach's time).When I play continuo on
guitar I transpose out of range bass lines(in my head) as
needed.   Looking at the parts, I think there's plenty of bass
   already.
I also wonder about the Tacet instructions. On some parts I
seeSpinetta tacet, but not chitarra tacet. In the shared
   chitarra/
spinetta part Spinetta tacet appears to be crossed out.
   
I came across the beginning here, though it does not show the
Spinetta to be a transposing part, nor that Chitarra is also
   listed
(first!) on that part. (Perhaps preface material or edition
notesaddress these oversights.)   
   [1][7]http://www.primalamusica.com/PDFs/APR09/ALB001.pdf
[2][8]http://www.primalamusica.com/albrici-3030-0.html
   [chitarra not
mentioned here, either]
   What an obnoxious edition! All rights reserved - yeah

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example

[Martyn Hodgson]

I believe they (Ex-Cathedra dir. Jeff Skidmore) did use the edition not, of 
course, expecting all the subsequent trouble.

Mh

--- On Tue, 10/5/11, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote:

 From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 10 May, 2011, 15:03
 On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:37:10 +0100
 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote 
 
  If you're interested in the bacground and legal
 arguments, there are
  summaries of the case, known as Sawkins v Hyperion
 Records Ltd 2005,
  on various sites such as  
 
   www.4-5graysinnsquare.co.uk/news/index.cfm?id=1391 
 
 Thanks for the link. One intersting question: did the
 performers of
 the hyperion record actually _use_ the edition?
 
 Sacry quote: The response of the claimant, which the judge
 accepted,
  was that none of the music could have been played or
 performed by
  using any of the earlier extant Lalande scores.
 
 Poor old french musicians from the baroque - living in a
 time with
 such wonderfull music that they could not perform :-/
 
  Cheers, Ralf Mattes
 





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Oh dear me no - can't agree here either. He's simply leaving as many
   options open as possible. What he avoids saying (except by implication
   on the title page), is his preferred method of performance; mine, as
   already said, is with theorbo with voice for songs and theorbo with
   violin for ritornelli which I believe was probably his too.

   Where doesn't the bass fit the alfabeto? Are you sure it's not just the
   same sort of situation we don't agree in Il Verno (ie uses an Fmaj
   chord to accompant an apparent Dm harmony but in figured bass speak is
   simply the v common 65 chord)

   yrs ttcod

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 17:53

  I just don't agree with you that the bass part
  in Marini 1622 is never to be played when the guitar strums
   alfabeto -
   P.S.   What Marini himself says is
   Note that  in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit
   with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to
   accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while  by
   paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is  constrained
   by those of  the other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances.
   Which to me at least suggest that he didn't expect the guitar to play
   with the bass line.   And there are places where the alfabeto doesn't
   fit the bass.
   Monica in haste
   
  Ditto to you about not reading emails - see what I wrote about
   using a
  tiorba. You are also wrong in not considering the tiorba a 'bass
  instrument'; - by bass instrument I don't think the Old Ones
  automatically thought - aha! - this means a bowed bass!
   
  Pip! pip!
   
  Martyn
  --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata
   etc)
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 12:41
   
  Hello Martyn
 Well -  I prefer an F maj chord here not only because it is
   what M
  (or
 whoever) plainly indicates in the alfabeto but also because it
  provides
 a more effective combination with the upper vocal D to give a
   65
  chord
 without weakening the effect by unecessarily doubling the
   harmony
  on
 the guitar - I think this is what the 'arranger' had in mind.
  I think you are guilty of not reading what I have said!   Which is
   that
  - I
  do not think that the guitar alfabeto is to be played with the bass
  part in
  the Marini songs.  The alfabeto is irrelevant.   The voice part and
  bass
  part together imply - in modern academic speak - the 1st inversion
   of
  the
  minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale.   That is what I
   would
  play
  (and repeat if pressed) if accompanying the piece on the keyboard
   or on
  the
  theorbo if I had one and knew how to play it.
  Imposing a the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale onto
   the
  root
  of the dominant creates an even better dissonance than an F major
  chord.   A
  chord of the dominant 9th with a 4-3 suspension to be precise
   rather
  than a
  measly dominant 7th.
  
 Since the F chord is either played with a vocal D or a
   transient
  bass G
 I can't agree the music is poorer because it 'moves into the
   major
  mode
 sooner'  (in any case, to be fair to the numerous composers who
  used
 the unadorned sequence Subdom, Dom, Tonic there's nothing
   'wrong'
  with
 this simple cadential formula).
  In a minor key - this piece is in C minor  - the triad on the
  subdominant
  has a minor 3rd.   The guitar chord is not going to be imposed on
   the
  not
  so transient G in the bass (it lasts thoughout the whole bar!) -
   if I
  am playing it because I wont be including a G in the chord or
   employing
  a
  bass player of any sort!
 There's no general(NB) prohibition against employing a bass
  instrument
 (tiorba, bowed bass, etc) with a strummed guitar to play an
  independent
 melodic bass line if one is written (especially if it has some
  interest
 as in Il Verno).
  Again you haven't read what I  have been saying.   I don't think
   that
  it is
  in keeping with what was considered to be
  stylistically appropriate when accompanying these songs.   I don't
   know
  about general

[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   Well, here I can certainly agree with you: Gmin with Gmaj seems
   crackers.

   But out of interest could you give me the specific example quoted? Are
   we sure it's not S Stubbs thinking it ought to be Gm?

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 28/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
 To: Dominic Robillard ubaldrosa...@hotmail.de
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 28 April, 2011, 10:46

   Stephen Stubbs, while we were playing through some Kapsberger songs,
   suggested that these dissonances were meant to be.  The one I recall
   the
   most was a G major in the alfabeto against a g minor in the written
   continuo.
   Well - I think he is wrong!!!  Simply - whoever added the alfabeto did
   so just adding whatever chord fitted the bass note without taking into
   account the voice parts.   As I said in an earlier message..
   I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's  article about Dalza in
   Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that
   there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book.   It is not
   enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old
   source.
   In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about
   how
   music was printed etc...
   There are songs with only text and alfabeto, no bass, no melody...can't
   quite remember just now who it was.
   There are lots of sources which include the lyrics only of the songs,
   some of which have alfabeto - but this doesn't indicate that they are
   specifically to be accompanied on the guitar.
   Monica
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F
   (as I mentioned earlier in this thread): this chord is extremely common
   at the time (and indeed many other times) as leading up to a cadential
   43 chord.  It is the body of contextural experience (and the estimable
   rule of the octave)  which allows us to realise the bass without
   figures. And yes - certainly I would (and do) automatically think of
   playing 65 chords in such contexts. However on the guitar, where common
   alfabeto has no discrete symbols for  such chords, the arranger is
   obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the
   upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an
   F major chord).

   As an added bonus, as we have been discussing ad naseum in this thread,
   in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony
   over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more
   harmonic frisson.

   As said previously, we ought not to think such passing dissonances are
   so very unusual and there are, of course, numerous other short harmonic
   sequences which provide similar effects which the Old Ones (especially
   in this period) seemed to like. So coming full circle to our original
   discussion, I  point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection:
   page 10 second half of bar 13: note the nice chord tablature 022 (ie D
   with sharp 7th). The vital C# (sharp 7th) is neither  in the violin
   part nor, of course, in the very basic figures of the basso part.

   Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was
   accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces
   for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in
   this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't
   therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622
   collection is beyond me - except to say that he only mentions theorbo
   (not a bowed bass) as an option and perhaps he felt too much plucking
   (ie guitar as well as theorbo) was excessive in the context of a simple
   ritornello (as also suggested earlier in this thread).

   Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more
   convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho'
   might have been played as such): there's just to many places where the
   upper melodic line vanishes or goes down an octave. For example page 6,
   end of bar 6 and first beat of bar 7 ( - I suggest the octave shift
   here was to be able to play the E maj chord in the root position rather
   than playing M2 shape after the preceding two notes if at the upper
   octave - as Vn part).

   regards

   Martyn






   --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
 century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18

   Dear Martyn
  It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a
   G
  which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing
  dissonance which is then resolved.
   But why would you play an F major chord there at all?   The note in the
   voice part
   is D -  a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor
   chord -
   F A D.If you are going to play F  A  C, the voice part is still
   singing
   D.   Therefore the complete  chord is  a minor 7th
   chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D  F  A   C.
   The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in
   fact
   it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather
   than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony
   with the voice part.   If there was no alfabeto would you even think of
   playing an F major chord there?
   The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can
   also belong to
   the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me
   inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which
   conforms to all the rules of counterpoint.  Marini's basses are
   completely un-figured so how do you decide?   This is part of the
   problem.
  I'm slowly losing the will to live ...
   It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example
   and an instrument to hand.
   Regards
   Monica
  --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early
   17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date

[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Lex,

   My observations were withing the context of songs with an independent
   basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini 1622
   collection.  Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd
   generally expect only the guitar.  I'd be very grateful if you'd read
   my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time!

   And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present and
   the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by
   another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other. The
   alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense with
   the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords.  Are you
   really sure this is what the various other people you mention really
   believe? - I very much doubt it. And. more to the point - is it really
   what you believe?
   regards

   Martyn


   --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
 century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 11:23

  Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the
 theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo.
 And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need
 only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid
 too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass
 if the guitar was present
   It seems you prefer ensemble performance with a separate bass, if a
   guitar would be involved. There is a wealth of information from pre
   1600 to c 1650 time testifying of singing to the guitar. And where can
   we read (see) about singing to the guitar + bowed bass or guitar +
   theorbo? (Please note that I don't say 'never' or 'impossible'.)
   As I understand from reading what others have said about the use of
   bowed string in basso continuo, for example Borgir, O'Dette + Ashworth,
   Sayce, I have the impression that they have not found much either,
   regarding combinations with the guitar. It seems bowed bass was mainly
   used in certain other genres.
   best, Lex
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Monica,

   O death, where is thy sting?

   These emails, between Lex, you and me are increasingly suffering from
   failure to read (or to digest) exactly what is being said: I don't
   blame anyone of us in particular.

   Most recently you have written that I said something when I thought I'd
   gone out of the way to say quite the opposite!  I precisely did not
   say, vis a vis the example of Granata's harmony, that it was the same
   as Marini's (as you've now taken it!): merely that it was a similar
   type of passing dissonance that was used at the time. Indeed, I
   particularly wanted to give a similar but not identical example of such
   harmony to illustrate the more widespread use of such. This is what I
   actually  wrote: 'we ought not to think such passing dissonances are so
   very unusual and there are, of course, numerous other short
   harmonic sequences which provide similar effects which the Old Ones
   (especially in this period) seemed to like' - I then went on to give
   this new example.

   And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj chord
   over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through the 43
   cadence.

   Sigh..

   nevertheless, kind regards

   yrs thfo

   Martyn



   --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
 century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17

   Dear Martyn,
   
  The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass
   F
   That is exactly what I said.   It is the first inversion of a minor 7th
   chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common
   in this
   repertoire.   The notes which the chord includes are D   F   A   C.   C
   is
   the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass.  What you call it is
   immaterial.  The voice part is D  E   F   C.  The E is a passing note
   (and
   it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural).   The other
   three
   notes define the chord.
  However on the guitar, where common
  alfabeto has no discrete symbols for  such chords, the arranger is
  obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in
   the
  upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar
   (ie an
  F major chord).
   Again this is exactly what I said.   There is no problem as far
   as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here.
  in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the
   harmony
  over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit
   more
  harmonic frisson.
   I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part.
   Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You
   seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord  - omitting
   the D - which is no longer present in the voice part.   What I would do
   is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to
   omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no
   problem.   It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th.
  So coming full circle to our original
  discussion, I  point you in the direction of Granata's 1674
   collection:
  page 10 second half of bar 13:
   But this is a different progression altogether.  It's a major 7th chord
   on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with
   combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass.
  Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was
  accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very
   pieces
  for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier
   in
  this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever)
   didn't
  therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622
  collection is beyond me
   I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played
   alfabeto.   Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional
   alfabeto chords.
  Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather
   more
  convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols
   (tho'
  might have been played as such):
   Well - yes I agree with that.
   Rgds
   Monica
  --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early
   17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18
   
  Dear Martyn
 It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor