CS: Target-prize money
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] I'm not too sure about this. Yes, bigger prize funds will probably see more People shooting but is this the way we want to see the sport going? I don't think I want to see this happening. I want shooting to be about shooting *not* simply about making money. -snip- Amateur Footballers never get to play with or against the likes of Beckham or Shearer and amateur Tennis player don't get a Game against Samprass or Becker, the gap created by the Money is just too great. -snip- Shooting, Rifle shooting in particular, is a sport which requires a lot of space and there simply is not the money availible to acquire suitable pieces of land. This I presume has all been brought about by charitable status in the past, which restricted clubs from making a profit. [...] Jonathan, I do not believe that your nation or any other's for that matter, will ever suffer the quandary of a super paid team of competition shooters - any century soon. Look at Switzerland: do they have such a 'problem'? Shooting, as you already know, requires much practice, dedication, and solemn self control. Other sports aren't much like that. Shooting is not a team sport. There are shooting teams, but their competitive events are solo. By bringing a greater amount of money or other prize that provides incentive to compete, the average person who might not otherwise be interested, will become attracted to shooting, in the hope of perhaps wining a share of the prize. And, as you are already aware, in order for the competitors to remain interested in shooting, there must be many levels of prize. If there is only one prize, not many people will ever show interest beyond the superficial, as they will consider it much beyond their ability of attainment. And that would serve to kill the sport faster than anything, as it will be viewed largely as an elitist event. The trick here is in the undertaking of attracting greater numbers of people to shooting, because if you do not attract more people, your sport will die, and sooner than you'd like. The biggest problem of introducing new shooters to shooting is the trepidation that invariably one encounters, both in the idea (in the modern sense) of pursuing a politically incorrect art form, and the inertia of overcoming the newcomer syndrome that is felt, especially by the newbie who gets from the old timers, the distinct impression that he or she is intruding on sacred turf. There is nothing worse than getting a cold shoulder from someone who could well be a learned mentor. Yes, you will be inundated with new shooters from all walks of life, and the range fees will increase, and the times that the lanes are open will be a challenge for you to arrange, but it's all in a day's restoration of a sacred right. As to the availability of shooting ranges, some enterprising group of people could well design an underground shooting range deep in the heart of an city, town, or other place to accomodate the needs of the growing number of shooter. ET -- All you've got to do is compare the number of shooters in places where there are big prizes to the places where there aren't. I remember the Southern Classic in Florida, the biggest entry we ever had was in 1993 when there were the most prizes. This isn't rocket science. Who cares if it is "bribery", it's not exactly a criminal offence, does it matter how we get more people shooting? Speaking for myself I would enter more comps if the prize table was bigger. It's great having your name engraved on a trophy but at the end of the day you if you can't get a return on the money you're putting into it you're going to compete less. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Anglers call for protection as protests mount
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] We're laughing at these nutters now, but will we be in 20 years time I wonder? [...] Only if you let them get away with what they are getting away with now: telling crass lies, and not being held to strict account for their crimes. And, if the mass media takes sympathy upon them and provide a measure of free advertisement to their cause by reporting in a positive way, all of their negative acts, then you can rest assured that in 20 years time, you won't recognize your nation. Those people must at every turn be challenged, not only as to their acts against others, but also as to their philosophy, which if evaluated correctly is nothing other than outright oppression of all thought that runs in opposition to their own. Remember: if they cannot have their way, they will have your life. If that isn't the epitome of the hypocrite, I don't know what is. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.308/7.62
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your comment: [...] I've always wondered why cases from different makers have different case capacities, in fact Winchester Match brass (rare stuff) has a higher case capacity than their regular brass. Surely if they're all following the SAAMI or NATO specification the case capacities should all be the same? [...] I agree. I have also wondered to several of those cartridge makers why they don't just renumber their products not unlike metric tire (tyre, to you Brits) designations. That is, a cartridge would have an both internal and external dimension configuration figures, and that would equate to capacity and profile. Thereafter, the powder/propellant manufacturers would publish figures for both energy in ergs and flash times to allow shooters to determine the types and amounts of those propellants to use for any specific application. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-FHM Magazine
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote in-part - [...] Writing brainless articles about equally brainless half naked totty, rather than slagging off the most Law abiding section of the community. [...] Having been assessed before hand about the 'other' aspects of having my surname chuckle, allow me to say that I am more than willing to provide a picture of a "half naked totty" to anyone who cares to see one! Heck, I'll even pose with a .50 cal! When I read that, I about fell out of my chair laughing!! I must comment, however, that I am not brainless . . . I needed a good laugh. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-SA80s
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The question is who cares whether a rifle can withstand having a 4 tonne truck driven over it. Does it matter? Steve. Hmmm, I'd like to see what kind of tyres that truck had on it. I mean, if they were the large tundra stompers like we stuff under some of our play toys here in the US, well, that's not a whole lot of weight per unit area. I have a really good idea: Why not convince Jack Straw that it would be a really good deal to force all you gunnies (who were deprived of a good firearms) to buy at least one, and maybe three each of those SA 80's, and that way he could save face by getting back all that money he paid you for your prior arms, and he'd get rid of all those rifles too . . . no? Just a thought. ET -- Actually the SA80 isn't bad for target shooting. Unfortunately Section 7 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 means it would be illegal to sell them to us, even converted to straight-pull operation, though Parliament could make an exemption. The serial numbered part of the SA80 is the trigger mech housing, so when they are eventually sold off as surplus and appear in the US and Canada as parts kits, you will be able to buy a virtually complete rifle. The bolt, recoil spring and barrel are all attached to the upper receiver. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Speed Cameras.
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wait a minute here. Why should the police benefit from any activity in which they are *required* to participate? I mean, they were hired to enforce the law, were they not? It seems that a very important aspect is being ignored: When you benefit from an activity, you are more prone to emphasize interest in that activity, than say, one you are not benefiting from. If the police need more funding, it is the proper place for them to seek it from the source from which it emanates: the people. Let them appeal to Parliament. But for them to benefit from enforcement activities, that in itself is asking for a perversion of law. ET -- It's nowhere near as bad in the US, though, I have to say. There are loads of small towns in places like South Carolina and Louisiana where you have to slow down to 25mph to even hope not to get a ticket. As soon as they see out-of-state plates they are on you. You can challenge speed limits in the US though, under Federal law there has to be an highway safety survey done to justify the speed limit, if that is not done the speed limit is invalid. I'm wondering if that could be used as a defence here. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Air? rifle
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've seen a .22 blank-firing revolver which had been converted to fire live ammunition by boring out the chambers and using part of an air rifle barrel for the barrel. The problem with these conversions is you may also be the last person to see it, as evidenced by the kid in Manchester who fatally shot himself through the head while trying to make one. Steve. Steve, Ron, And that is what becomes of people -- most especially enquiring minds -- who in their rather innocent, somewhat benighted ventures, when they are deprived of knowledge. Who can say with a certainty, that with the ready knowledge, proper stewardship of a trained mentor, and less onerous laws, that the young man in question might not still be alive and well this day? Why is the price of ignorance so easy to pay, and the advantage of knowledge so hard to understand? ET -- The one I saw had been seized in Handsworth. The police apparently think there are illicit factories churning out these things, although the case with the derringers is the only one I recall on a major scale. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Expanding bullets UK police
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's no doubt about it - if the Home Office claims to comply with the Hague Accords, but then sanctions JSP ammo for police which is designed to expand (even if in practice it doesn't), then it is in breach. It would be much better advised to state that the Hague accords have no relevance to police equipment and were never meant to. They only apply to warfare. Nick Steadman Steve, Nick, I have an interesting question - hypothetical as it is: Knowing the particular laws about using certain ammunition types, suppose nation 'A' and nation 'B' go to war -- against each other. Both are signatories to the Geneva convention on war. As country 'A' is overtaken, the police who were issued ammunition that was banned from the theater of war, now are required to take an active role in the defence of their nation, because the clods of country 'B' are engaged in heinous acts against the citizens, the police make no distinction between the criminals and the invaders. Because the police ammunition has caused such a high fatality rate among the invaders, they withdraw and subsequently loose the conflict. Country 'B' sues country 'A' in the world court for violation of the Geneva convention. What is the outcome? ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The speed camera decision is being appealed apparently. Rememeber this case is not necessarily about speed cameras it is about the wording of the 'Notice of Intended Prosecution'. This means that the police may have to persue the vehicle and detain the driver to gain a prosecution or conviction for any road traffic offence. Who's up for more police chases through urban areas at stupid speeds? Dukes of Hazard style police chases where you can't prosecute them unless you catch them? --snip-- -- No-one says the police have to pursue the speeder. What annoys me about the whole thing is this obsession with speeding. There are a million other unsafe things that can be done with a vehicle that are just as big a threat to public safety but I don't see national campaigns to do with them. Steve, and Jeremy, I think it interesting that the police (politicians) haven't pursued the more classic English method of getting at the problem English style. I presume that you are all aware of 'civil forfeiture'? That unique little machination of law was invented by the English Admiralty as a means of restitution to the state where vessels were found with contraband, and no one claimed responsibility for said cargo. Prior to the implementation of said law, the owner would get his ship returned minus the cargo. Thereafter the law, the ship was held guilty of the offense, and held forfeit. How unique. Here in the jolly US, that aspect of law has been abused so mightily, that the US Congress yearly has had various bills placed before it to rehabilitate the law and severely restrict the application of it until after a finding of guilt. Pray that that aspect of your law isn't reinvented in the case of speed. And, you are 'spot on', Steve, about the offences committed with vehicles. It really devolves to the easiest thing that they can catch you doing, because it is the thing done most. The cops around here (Washington) have taken lately to a bit of a relaxed attitude in the matter of speeders, and instead ticket the really obvious ones, and those who move in traffic like a bloody idiot. As an example, on the highway, above 50 mph, 5 over is nothing, 10 over is usual, 15 over will usually get you pulled over if the traffic or the conditions warrant it. And, you know? Once the speed limits were upped from 55 to 70 mph, the accident rate dropped accordingly. Interesting, isn't it? The nay sayers were predicting 'blood running in streets'. Where have we heard that before? ET -- In many countries they have cameras at traffic lights to catch people going on red, not in the UK though. Most accidents I have seen have been a result of people jumping the lights or not giving way. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The problem with the argument on retrospective legislation is that even if we successfully argued it in court, the outcome would be meaningless. The guns have been destroyed, so the court would order proper compensation be paid. But we already have compensation for the guns (various spare parts not included) so it wouldn't help. You might be able to argue some sort of punitive damages I suppose but that is a really long shot. Steve. Steve, Okay, so you won't get your arms back, but at least you'll get your sport back. That alone would be worth it, would it not? If the essence of the argument that you applied in a court of law was that you were seeking vindication, then to hell with the remuneration, get the right back first, then go for broke. One thing at a time. ET -- But we wouldn't get hardly anything back, because the Act using this argument is only illegal insofar as it applies retrospectively. Which means the only people who could get their guns back would be those people who moved them abroad or had open authorities to acquire before the ban. Which is perhaps 20,000 guns tops. And I still need some clarification on what exactly is being argued. Are there some specific precedents? John quoted the one about the house being taken during World War 1, but that sounded more like a compensation issue than a retrospective Act issue. There were laws past after WW2 that were retrospective and they were held to be legal. I've always been of the opinion we should have been compensated for our licensing fees. I had a variation for three pistols granted about six months before the ban, but I never got any money back even though I was barred from using those authorities. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-US told its gun culture is based on myth
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tsk, tsk, tsk. There is an old Chinese saying: "Lies travel around the world many times before truth has a chance to put her sandles on." According to William Weir, in his fine book, "A Well Regulated Militia, The Battle Over Gun Control," there is this representitive passage: Page 14 -- The Militia -- What's That? "The earliest English colonies were almost military outposts. In 1623, Virginia law required "that men shall not go to work in the ground without their arms and a centinell upon them." The "centinell," under the Martial Laws of Virginia, "shall shoulder his piece, both ends of his match being alight, and his piece charged and primed, and bullets in his mouth, the to stand with careful and waking eye until such time as his Corporall shall relieve him." Further on, on the same page: "Gun ownership was not limited to the members of the militia. A Connecticut law, for example, required that all citizens, not just "listed" soldiers of the militia, "always be provided with and have in continual readiness, a well-fixed firelock . . . or other good fire-arms . . . a good sword, or cutlass . . . one pound of powder, four pounds of bullets fit for his gun, and twelve flints." Page 15 -- The Militia -- What's That? "One visitor wrote, "There is not a Man born in America that does not understand the Use of firearms and that well . . . . It is almost the First thing they Purchase and take to all the New Settlements and in the Cities you can scarcely find a Lad of 12 years That [does not] go a Gunning." Another said that when a boy became 12, "he then became a fort soldier, and had his port-hole assigned to him. Hunting squirrels, turkeys, and raccoons, soon made him an expert in the use of the gun." Page 20 -- The Militia -- What's that? "It wasn't particularly good shooting. The militia knew that what they were doing was treason, and they were nervous. The shooting was good enough to panic the British convoy, including 13 men under an officer. The rebels were all men on the "alarm list," those so old they were asked to fight as a last resort, led by a black man by the name of David Lamson. The teamsters whipped their horses to break through. The ancient warriors killed the lead horses in their traces to stop the wagons, and shot the officer and both sergeants. The rest of the British ran for their lives, threw away their muskets, and surrendered to an old woman, asking her to take them to where they would be safe. She took them to a local militia commander." But enough of this. Next, there is "The Complete Jefferson," a compendium of sorts, that pretty much sums up the final 'nail in the coffin' for what passes as 'bovine excrement,' from the likes of Michael Bellesiles of Emory university in Atlanta, Georgia. "The Complete Jefferson," page 445: "Considering the extraordinary character of the times in which we live, our attention should unremittingly be fixed on the safety of our country. For a people who are free, and mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. It is, therefore, incumbent upon us, at every meeting, to revise the condition of the militia, and to ask ourselves if it is prepared to repel a powerful enemy at every point of our territories exposed to invasion. Some of the States have paid a laudable attention to this subject; but every degree of neglect is to be found among the others. Congress alone have power to produce a uniform state of preparation in this great organ of defence; the interests which they so deeply feel in their own and their country's security will present this as among the most important objects of their deliberation." "The Complete Jefferson," page 112: "All free male citizens, of full age, and sane mind, who for one year before shall have been resident in the country, or shall through the whole of that time have possessed therein real property of the value of ---; or shall for the same time have been enrolled in the militia, and no others, shall have a right to vote for the delegates for the said county, and for senatorial electors for the district." "The Complete Jefferson," page 312: "But the true barriers of our liberty in this country are our state governments; and the conservative power ever contrived by man, is that of which our Revolution and present government found us possessed. Seventeen distinct states, amalgamated into one as their as to their foreign concerns, but single and independent as to their internal administration, regularly organized with a legislature and governor resting on the choice of the people, and enlightene
CS: Pol-US told its gun culture is based on myth
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here is the Jefferson quote, I was seeking and it is from "The Life and Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson." Page 205: Notes on Virginia "Every able-bodies freeman, between the ages of sixteen and fifty, is enrolled in the militia è "The law requires every militia-man to provide himself with the arms usual in the regular service. But this injunction was always indifferently complied with, and the arms they had, have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars, that in the lower parts of the country they are entirely disarmed. In the middle of the country a forth or fifth part of them may have such firelocks as they had provided to destroy the noxious animals which infest their farms; and on the western side of the Blue Ridge that are generally armed with rifles. " ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-US told its gun culture is based on myth
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: George Steffner, INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- Even I did not realize that, until I read Federalist Paper No. 29. I, like everyone else, had assumed the "right of the people to keep and bear arms" was to facilitate that "well regulated militia." Only after I studied that Paper did I understand what was really intended by the Second Amendment. It actually means that, since a "well regulated [select corps]" is being accepted, the "right of the people to keep and bear arms [for defense against it] shall not be infringed." --snip-- Steve, and George, A rather interesting observation, to say the least. I have several websites bookmarked, and I shall make it a point to revisit ye old number 29, thusly. That said, and not calling into question the verity of George's assertions, allow me this one observation on the part of William Weir, author of "A Well Regulated Militia, The Battle Over Gun Control" on pages 31 32 of that book: "Both houses made a number of changes in Madison's original text, which read: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person." Now, if I recall correctly, it was 'Publius' who penned #29, and again, if I recall correctly, that was a one Alexander Hamilton (not of Cybershooters fame), and if that is so, and if Hamilton wrote as George states, then it would appear that Hamilton showed his hand. Interesting. Very interesting. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-US secretly pushed for EU
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you read this yet? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000114832908976rtmo=V6sqDfJKatmo=gg ggg3JKpg=/et/00/9/19/wspy19.html -- Mmm, it is quite interesting. Just wondering if the CIA would agree with the aims now! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Land Warrior
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm What happens when an enemy sniper or FOO captures one of these headsets that so nicely show you where all your own troops are? Tim : ) Steve, Tim, What's even so much more important, is that old saying about radio and radar: if it radiates, it's a beacon. The U.S. Military seems to think that it has the lock on technology, when it comes to fielded communications. But, when push comes to shove, and if the wrong adversary is chosen, what seems to be such a nice little toy right now will very possibly rend itself useless in short order. Either the emitter will become a good locator of the tactical center, and become its own Judas, or it will draw attention to itself by easily being detected, and then jammed. Along with jamming is spoofing, that art of sending out more powerful signals that confuse the intended recipient. Spread spectrum (or secure communication) is just as easily detected as either CW (continuous wave) or SSB (single side band). It matters only in the detection and processing of the signal. Much of this stuff is so cheap that a third world country outfitting a small force with it would pose a serious problem for any NATO unit deploying it. The hitch is in training those troops to be effective detectors, something that takes a bit of time, and well as having technology that mimics the stuff that you might be up against. If it can be done, it can also be undone. ET -- The main problem with all these electronic gizmos is the effect of EMP. Unless technology has come a long way lately you can't build a Faraday cage around all these battery operated rifles and helmets and so on. But on the other hand, there are a lot of people out there designing gizmos that generate EMP. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Wal-Mart Mk2
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] That bit about the 1000 foot limit has been essentially null since that law was challenged. Congress had the temerity to reinstate it, but it hasn't been enforced with application by any fed that I am aware of -- seeing as how it is 'settled law', and will be moot from the moment it is filed in federal court. The fed has no authority to enforce its edicts that are invasive of State's prerogatives. ET -- But no store is going to violate the law that blatantly, regardless of whether it is enforced or not. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-land warrior
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] Still, what happens if one of these headsets is captured? Then the enemy knows where the whole unit is in great detail. Even if the rest of the unit disengages the captured headset as soon as they find out, even a brief glimpse will tell the enemy where the whole unit is located. [...] Absolutely not to mention soldiers that desert, or just plain go over to the other side. Chances are that this equipment will find a 'better' application in law enforcement. In addition, such equipment will just have to be made just that more complicated by virtue of what it entails: every unit will have to be assigned a daily code that corresponds to the likes of IFF (Identification - Friend or Foe), so that if one of those units is captured, it will be of time limited use. Very possibly, this equipment will be used for those special missions (SAS, SEALS, SF, etc.) where you will want to know all those things that such equipment will provide. But in the big war scenario, it would add so much noise to the already noisy radio environment as to make it a liability. ET -- I don't think radio noise would be a problem, even when I was in the Signals we had that problem licked, with the advances in technology, burst transmission and so on I can't see how it would be a problem. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-No bangs, no smoking guns
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Times 17.10.00 No bangs, no smoking guns: victims just fell and bled SAM KILEY IN RAMALLAH ISRAELI snipers using specialised rifles fitted with silencers yesterday picked off high-profile Palestinian rioters in Ramallah in an apparent bid to "take out" --snip-- By sunset, the toll across the West Bank was two dead - a boy of 13 and a policeman - a 14-year old boy described as clinically dead, and 69 wounded. _ Subsonic/heavy bullet fullbore or .22 rimfire? Rusty -- Dunno. A suppressed .223 seems the most likely, 22mm would be huge, although having said that it could be suppressed more easily as you could still have something very lethal that is subsonic. Steve. Steve, If the rounds they are using have been worked up to make them subsonic after a certain distance, yet have a suppressor to muffle the muzzle discharge, then they could well be farther away than some think. However, to be working up close and personal, that would seem to make the rounds subsonic with a good noise suppressor. If, as J.S. Hatcher noted (Hatcher's Notebook) that noise suppressors use with supersonic rounds are essentially a waste of time -- since the bullet will defeat that, then there is another set of factors here to be considered. ET -- It does depend on how far away they were, the sound of the gun going off might not carry that far. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-SAGBNI comments on HAC report
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quote in-part by - "SA Mail", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] (The point that Lord Cullen was addressing in his report was to get the police to identify those shooters who showed no real interest in the sport but who just 'wanted to own firearms' and who may be potential Hamiltons in their own right. The police have discovered a way to make life harder for the legitimate shooter, and, perhaps as a byproduct, to 'reduce to a minimum the number of firearms in private hands' without having any impact on the criminals. Our view is that a person is either a fit person to possess firearms or he is not. There are no half measures on this. If a person is fit to possess firearms, it doesn't matter how many he has or how often he uses them. If he is not a fit person, he shouldn't have any at all.) [...] Anyone not fit to possess arms should also not be allowed to roam free either. Either you are dangerous, or you aren't; but then what is the criteria for being labeled 'dangerous'? The whole matter of firearms possession is one of parsing: how finely can you shave an already diminished right, until it is plainly a transparent act of assault upon the people themselves? Can you shave air? If this matter is allowed to continue unabated, unfettered, and uncorrected, then there will come a time when merely discussing firearms in your Isles will become a crime in itself. But then, you won't have to hear about it from the likes of myself. Pity. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-William Wallace
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I found an interesting page on William Wallace: http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/wallace/index.html Some synopsized history that seems to neatly encapsulate that episode in history. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-threat to shoots
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anthony, You're right about the getting involved bit. Our Parish has had a number of vacancies over the last 6 years and I have written in on 3 occasions responding to Notice Boards requests from the PC for replacement PCouncillors. Well strange thing is they ignored my letter on 2 occasions and appointed others. On 3rd I rolled up to the Meeting and they (embarrassed) announced that again they selected another. This time I got a letter saying "sorry". Seems that they tend to elect their own like minded souls, don't want someone who will rock the boat, or know more about what they blather on about for 4 hours every 4 weeks!! I even thought of starting my own "Alternative" P/Council Still, will keep on trying Tom C Tom, Perhaps you should pull-off a walk-in. Find out where they are holding their meetings, and arrive unannounced to attend one, or several of them. Thing is, if they are holding a 'star chamber' sort of meeting, and demand that you leave, then you have the ammunition with which to take them all to task. Should not all of their meetings be open and attended by all who wish to know what they are discussing? And what excuse could they use to exclude their fellow citizens from meetings that will affect them? Who - on that board of individuals - could possibly connive to deprive the citizens of the information that is conducted in the normal course of business? ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal Rights protesters
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Small protest at first hunt of season A small group of saboteurs has descended on a hunt meeting in West Kent and tried to disrupt it. Its always been a source of wonder to me as to why the hunts never picket the ALF homes or meeting places. It would be absolutely lawful provided the tresspass laws were adhered to, and no public order offences were committed. Field sports participants seem content to sit back and take it, or pontificate about how aggrieved they are by the actions of the saboteurs, etc. Could it be that the antis are better organised than us? Or are they more passionate? Imagine the publicity if even a small band of field sports persons were to demonstrate at the home of a saboteur? IG (or could it be that being unemployed and living off state benefits gives them the time and means to go all over the place causing bother..) Steve, IG, Sorry if this comment seems a bit dated, considering the date it was sent out. But I wanted to remark on it with all the thoughts that it deserves. The people who engage in anti-activities, are usually those who have not given much thought to what it is that they are against. It matters little -- to them -- that what they don't like and agitate against, has been engaged in from time immemorial. It matters only that they be 'seen' as adamantly against the thing which currently occupies their nascent conscience of yet another moral dilemma in their desire to 'god-like'. These people are so easily lead down the primrose path, that the description 'running like a lemming to the cliff of death' is an appropriate description of their condition. Most of them, 20 years from now, will blush in embarrassment at the mention of having engaged in such activities, as were described by IG above. These are people who lack a proper moral or intellectual compass, and are drifting. They latch onto the easiest and most negative message, as it easily matches their preconceived notions about what it is that humans are here for, what it is that humans have done to poor Mother Earth (or in newspeak: Ghia, or however it is that you which to spell that), and what the true roll is for humans. These people say they love the earth, but hate humans. If they had their way, all humans but the approved ones would be 'eliminated'. Some writers have described them as fostering a polity otherwise known as 'watermelon politics', or green on the outside, and red on the inside: green to reflect their most vociferous concerns for the environment, and red to reveal their truer nature as concerns what it is they are really after: total control over humanity. They might get it, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, if enough people are gullable enough to believe the message of hate. And hate is the message. You just don't control the things that you love, but it is very human to control the things that you hate and cannot eliminate. See: http://www.wnd.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=digital+angelconfig=restrict=exclude= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Armistice Day
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] My uncle was involved as a Lieutenant in the Great War and told me that after the war it was suggested that a statue of a giant rat should be erected in Whitehall instead of the Cenotaph, since that was how so many soldiers ended up - blown to pieces and the pieces eaten by rats. It was suggested that the idea might not be popular because of the proximity of the Prime Minister's residence and an association that might be formed in the public's mind between the two. ---snip-- The creation of a shiny new graveyard with ten thousand bodies in it every year for a few decades might achieve rather a lot more than the present arrangements. Any comments from anyone? Regards Norman Bassett Steve, Norm, So long as government sees the children of its citizens as nothing more than battle fodder, then good men and women will ever become as salt to the earth with their spilt blood. You can bury a thousand men, and more than a few will doff their hats; in but a century's time, they will be but a faint memory. Today's woes overshadow yesterday's remorse, and history is yet again repeated; it is all in the name of 'expedience', and the false prophets. That the leadership of a nation would willingly spill the blood of its youth in a spree of exuberance speaks of its essence: evil incarnate. If you send one man to his untimely death, it is spoken of as murder. But if you send thousands to their untimely deaths, it is glory. Where is the justice in that? ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-Calibres for Fallow
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am no expert on stalking, but my instinctive advice is yes, go for premium bullets - a very minor part of your total expenditure, and how many deer are you likely to shoot anyway? Nosler Partitions or Speer Grand Slams, and as a cheaper alternative try Nosler Ballistic Tips. I only ever shot one fallow deer, a young buck; from 100 yards max I hit it square behind the shoulder with a 150gr softpoint (Winchester factory ammo) out of a 30-06, and it barely twitched, just stood there for half a minute before falling over, wriggling a bit, then expiring. Rather disconcerting! The bullet exited, as I would have expected. Anthony Harrison Steve, Anthony, The story around where I live in Washington (the real Washington, as opposed to where all the BS originates), is that if you manage to properly hit a deer, or elk in the heart (locally referred to as the 'boiler room') without spooking the animal just prior to, then the likely response is as you have described. On the other hand, if the animal is spooked, or has its attention gotten by a noise, it has enough adrenalin in its system to take it quite a distance, even after being shot in the heart with the best accuracy. Experienced hunters -- bow, black powder, and rifle -- have related this time and again. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-The Day we shut down the City
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] A friend who is interested in the possible effects of the renewal of the fuel protests, and political libertarianism (we need a shorter and more aesthetically pleasing word for that, apart from anarchism) sent me the full text of the article to be found at: http://www.zolatimes.com/V4.36/the_day.html all from the Laisser Faire City Times. I do not vouch for all the "facts" offered. Extracts for the flavour of the thing include: "In 1971, during the anti-Franco student riots in Barcelona, a city if not the cradle then the trainer of the Old Libertarianism, I and the nascent New Libertarian group there, armed with Murray Rothbard and using the Spanish Army Manual on tactics, brought the city to a standstill for three days by having 5,000 students flush their toilets on the half hour while turning on their home lights and calling government services." --snip-- Plenty more in the piece. Any interlectual out there who can explain to me the reference to this Murray Rothbard? Aristotle, by the way, was tutor to the young Alexander, later the Great, while his dad Philip was King of Macedon. Accordingly, Aristotle knew his hard men. Yours sincerely Jeff Wood Steve, Jeff, From the overleaf of one of his books: Murray N. Rothbard (1926-1995), the author of 25 books and thousands of articles, was dean of the Austrian School of economics, restorer of the Old Right, and founder of modern libertarianism. The S.J. Hall Distinguished Professor of Economics as the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, he was also Academic Vice President of the Ludwig Von Mises Institute. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty = 1/government (Liberty is inversely proportional to the size of government) "Steve A." [EMAIL PROTECTED] =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-threat to shoots
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- Treason, BTW, includes impairing the defence of the Realm so persecuting rifle clubs would be covered. And Church of England clergy, who have an input in Parish Councils, are required to swear the Oath of Allegiance. The Articles of religion in the Book of Common Prayer include one which states "Christian men may carry swords..". Regards, John Hurst. Steve, John, Okay, let's see a modern carry a 'sword' and not get tossed into the clink. If, as you state above, that the COE Clergy are required to swear an oath, then if that oath is still a functional and enforceable adjunct to public office, then so is every latent clerical ministration in the form of the prayer. If the former has not been dismissed as irrelevant, and if no law or official decree to the otherwise has been enacted to demur the intent of the prayer, then it stands legally as it states. It is obvious that the past is irrelevant to the futurists. To stand on the past as predicate to the present, then it stands that no public official can possibly preclude the exercise of a right by merely stating that they possess the power of office to do as they darned well please. If the past is to lend credence to the present, then the present must reflect the valid decisions of the past, and not the corrupt, and irresolute distinctions which have lead to the morass of your current predicament. But I digress, your current predicament is lamentable primarily because -- not unlike my own nation -- people think that by simply voting on an issue, that they can change what it is that they currently find objectionable. One wonders what other ludicrous distinction will find itself up for a vote in some future citizens forum . . . -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-armed robbers
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] Looking at the police helicopter video of the Rochdale car-chase shooting case, doubtless everyone said "bad guns!" and nobody said "bad cars!". Logically, they should have been saying "bad men!", shouldn't they? [...] Well, if the gist of the reported news is such that firearms are being made out to be the premise for the crime, then how many people called into the TV station/s and gave the station manager a considered piece of mind? Sometimes it takes a coordinated effort of many people calling in to make a complaint, especially if you can get your spouse (or whomever) to call in right after you do. If everybody did that, there would automatically be twice as many calls. And, if you encourage the rest of the family to follow suit, well, it's going to appear that the station rolled over to the wrong side of the bed! The antis play this game all the time, and its about time that you used fire to fight fire. But whatever you do, don't threaten to quit watching their shows or their station, because they realize that better than 99 percent of those who say such things won't carry through with that threat. Better to call the companies that pay for the adverts for the shows, and tell them direct about how you feel about their unmitigated effrontery to front for such trip. Cut loose and tell them that you are going to mount a serious boycott of their goods. That usually gets them. The great object in all of this is to first stifle the bad news, and then work on getting the good news to see the light of day. If the antis made it work for them, so can you. We do it here in the US all the time. It does work. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Televised target shooting
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] I don't think they need to be in the hundreds of thousands to encourage competitions, I think a few hundred quid would be more than enough, as opposed to the usual cheap plastic trophyG. The question is, where is the money going to come from? [...] It might take priming the pump, as it were. If the money collected from the participants of a shooting event is used to form the basis for the prizes, and if you can convince those businesses that are uniquely shooting related to kick-in matching funds, then the prize package can amount to a significant value. Quite frankly, I don't understand why companies in your nation aren't self-starting competitive events, as a means of inducing more business. And if they are, obviously it's not enough in scope (otherwise it would not be the object of such discussion). It doesn't take an MBA to figure out that to increase the market share, one of your options is to increase the market size. You apparently have a vast and untapped market. This is a lot of words, and in your current predicament things are going to move slowly, because people will probably be cautious about buying into something that is facing a big threat of being acted against. But, as I see it, you really have no other choice than to turn your ship into the wind and ride the waves. If you can get more people than you have now into your shooting events, well that's just that many more voices come election time and at other times as well. Someone who buys an expensive firearm isn't going to take lightly to another law that screws him or her out of the money and investment of time that would have well produced winning results. So, if that means paying a premium to join a shoot, as part of upping the ante for the public attention it might garner, then the sacrifice is well worth it. Not doing anything is not a viable option, unless your crystal ball says otherwise. What you people need over there is firebrand agitator to stir things up mightily. Mind if I volunteer? ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-toddlers find sawn-off shotgun
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] Manchester Evening News, 13 July 2000 Toddlers' game with a loaded gun by Neal Keeling Two toddlers wer discovered playing a deadly game after they found a loaded sawn-off shotgun dumped by criminals. --snip-- The mother has now started a petition to get the bushes, which have been in the street for more than 20 years, removed. [...] Concerning that last statement, removing the bushes is supposed to accomplish . . . what? Well, heck, why not remove every last bush, tree, and level every knoll in sight in order to have a clear view of the whole darned countryside! And while she's at it, lets make every house (and clothes too) transparent. Seems to me that the kid's mother is trying to cover for the lack of her own attentiveness. "Go play outside, kiddies!" Yup, and don't overlook what mummy should have seen by a careful observation of just where she was sending those kids to play. Why is it that logic is sorely lacking in modern man? ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] I just wish I could have seen the look on Charles Clarke's face when the Crown Court in Birmingham handed down the judgement that speed camera offences violate the right to remain silent. [...] Was that court judgement the final word, or is there still another review and appeal? Here in my own state of Washington, traffic cameras are not allowed as evidence for the sole purpose of issuing a traffic citation, but can otherwise be entered into court record as evidence. To be cited for a traffic infraction (usually called a moving violation), the officer issuing the citation (or his partner, if working traffic in a team) must have visually witnessed the infraction, or unless the officer is at the scene of an accident and issues as a result of a finding. That one of your courts has disallowed such video evidence in the way of prosecution, I would not find too much comfort in. That a 'lawbreaker' was allowed to skip is perhaps a celebratory thing in the consideration of all other things traffic. I would however consider the 'fuller' implications if in the same vein, a violent felon is allowed to skip using the traffic camera precedent. Else, what is the difference between a camera and an eye witness (neglecting to address the implications of tampered evidence)? And before there is any such challenge in the way of firearms, may I express the necessity to establish other supporting structures in the law, that will serve to bolster your positions when you decide to act in that regard, not unlike paving the way, as it were. A good cake deserves the right amount of baking! ET -- There are all sorts of appeals they can make but I don't think it would be wise politically because the Government would in essence be attacking the Human Rights Act, an Act they pushed through Parliament. Also I think they would have a very hard time overturning that decision so it would be unwise legally, because the last thing they want is the High Court or the House of Lords agreeing as then it really will be chiselled in stone. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-checks and balances
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] Is the firearms legislation the single most important factor in casting your vote? [...] Interesting that you ask, Paul. It is *the* issue by which I judge any candidate to public office. They can mouth any platitude they desire on any issue they'd care to, but as soon as they reveal any distrust - in the slightest way - of the private citizen possessing and bearing arms, then in my mind it is they who need to be watched more than the common criminal, because once your arms are taken away, so is your effective means to resist being carried off to a gulag. How many lessons in recent history will you need to review before it it hits home that what happened in NAZI Germany can also happen in dear old Great Britain? Firearms laws should be the bellwether issue for any thinking man or woman, who values their liberty. Remember: If they don't want *any* of your arms, chances are they don't want much else either. ET -- Actually the gun laws in Germany were enacted in 1929, before the Nazis came to power and the Nazis actually loosened them in 1938 to enable easier rifle practice. They did however use the registration records to disarm Jews and so forth. Historically the reasons for the 1929 law are almost identical to the reasons for the 1920 law here, i.e. the Government feared a communist overthrow, in fact they were bulldozed by the Nazis who also crushed the communist movement. I got an interesting email a while ago from someone whose father held a gun license in Nazi Germany, and was a hunter. The SS repeatedly pestered her father to turn in his guns, but he refused. In the end he was drafted and killed at the Eastern front. The reality is that the police in this country actually have greater powers under our Firearms Act than the SS did under the Nazi law. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-checks and balances
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] I don't know about others, but I can't walk through a town without reflecting gloomily that the shaven-headed tattooed thug swigging lager across the street has a vote worth just as much as mine - and there are an awful lot of people who share his mindless, kneejerk, fascist view of society. Somebody once said that while the majority is always wrong, the minority is often right - anathema to many liberal types, but it's the reason why too much government, whether of the plebiscite or Parliamentary variety, is a bad thing. [...] Anthony, I agree and disagree for the following reasons: a) A democracy is, by definition, a plebiscite driven culture; b) A republic has (or should have) laws that limit the acts of the government, as well as those of the ability of the people to act without restraint toward the minority members of that community; c) A true republic will have very few instances where a plebiscite is really necessary, since the number of issues that are of any substance will of necessity be small in number, and the acts of the legislature will be (or should be) consonantly small in number. If the government isn't busy trying to buy votes with largesse from the government coffers, then the "shaven-headed tattooed thug swigging lager across the street" won't have much of an effect in your own life, as s/he won't have a reason to vote, as there won't be an issue to garner their attention. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-checks and balances
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] Why not? This is the electronic/ digital/wired age.What is the internet for? [...] I certainly sounds okay on first look. But then, you neglect to consider the implications of decisions made in the heat of any particular moment. Very often, one or another of the media outlets will conduct a straw poll, asking loaded questions of people who very likely have preconceived notions about something, but have very little real knowledge about it. It is those people that have had their opinions 'given to them' by the very media that is polling them. You see it all the time with 'news stories' about 'x' percent of a certain population wants 'y' to happen. Those very unscientific polls are used by the most corrupt of people to make decisions, especially decisions that were also based on their preconceived notions. The possibilities for abuse here are virtually limitless, in just this aspect alone. Better I think it is to limit the medium to its present uses and abuses, than to open a Pandora's box of irresponsible decision making. If a person can't take the time to get up off their duff and traipse to a genuine polling center, then how do you think they will make a good decision sitting down? And while it is true that we can make inroads in the fight to expose the truth about the antis' real agendas, we should not use it in the sense of the ultimate decision making tool. If, everybody in the world were as contemplative as the many members of this and other discussion lists, then perhaps the medium would serve well as a means of exchanging ideas as a precursor to its use as a polling device. But not until then. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Anonymity
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- I also lost my pistols after the '97 fiasco. I fully agree that the police are useless at licensing, and that the attitudes of some in the ranks are hostile towards shooters. I personally will stick up for any legitimate shooter except someone who wants a gun for self defence. --snip-- I dont feel the need to have a firearm for protection at home. I dont know or associate with anyone who does. If anyone feels that strongly about it, then I feel very sorry for them. Their lives must be hell, and I mean that sincerely. --snip-- :-) IG PS Just 'cos your paranoid doesn't mean they arent after you. PPS The proponents of the right to bear arms for self defence will presumably be able to distinguish a replica or an air weapon in a burglar or muggers hands in the dark. [...] Steve, and IG, IG: Well, I can certainly sympathize with your ill feelings, being put upon by your detractors. They do have well placed arguments that you have not adequately addressed, especially the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense. I see that you rather disagree with that position, but you do not -- in any way -- effectively counter their proposition that they have the right to defend their lives and their property -- with deadly force, if necessary. If, as you pronounce, you are a member of the Law Enforcement Establishment, you should very well know that no cop is omniscient or omnipotent: You cannot be everywhere at the same time, nor render aid at the time of gravest need. If that is the case, and if cops have the right to employ deadly force in their own defense, how is it then, that non-police -- in your world view -- must be deprived of the same force that the citizens gave them the authority to employ? If the citizens have the authority to authorize a power, do they not also possess that power themselves? You cannot give what you do not possess the original authority for, to begin with. The Crown in your land is by citizen assent, not by edict. The crown cannot take what it does not compensate for by direct action. Neither the Crown nor the Parliament has in any way managed to compensate the loss of viable and affirmative defensive abilities on the part of the citizen, in the name of personal arms. So, you don't feel the need? And, what of those others who do? Am I to suppose that because you feel a certain way, that all others must kowtow to that special feeling of yours? In what way are you special enough to warrant that all others must somehow just keep a stiff upper lip whilst they are delivered a beating without any recourse to effective measures? That, I'd really like to know the answer to. ET -- Time for another classic quote: "It is the role of the police to maintain public safety and protect the individual in the community." - Home Office minister Earl Ferrers, 27 October 1993. ARVs outside every house in Handsworth then! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Straw may permit pistol shooting at Manchester games
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] How the hell this woman get so much space in newspapers is beyond me. Rusty [...] Or, perhaps more to the point is, how is it that she can make so many off-the-wall statements without a wit's worth of factual substantiation concerning her comments about firearms, and their misuse? That, more than anything else, is what you should be asking. If that woman can be so assertive about a position on something she has no direct knowledge of, has no first hand experience in, cannot certifiably prove one iota of her contentions on, then maybe you people need to take her to a court of law, and sue the pants off her butt in a civil case that would prove once and for all that her position is built upon quicksand. She has built an empire of lies, and she is gradually going to bury in them if you don't take her to court and make her prove that the law abiding firearms owners are not a problem that she says YOU are. You can just sit there and fry in your own fat, or you can jump out of that pan, and proceed to give her a taste of her own medicine. What does it take, anymore, to get make Brits to stand up and kick butt? Your choice. ET -- What would be the basis for a civil case? The only one I can think of is that she may cause a bad effect on the revenue from ticket sales to the Games by spreading lies, but that would be a tough one to prove in court. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] "No retrospective legislation" does that mean that those in possesion of handguns at the time of the ban could keep them and that the ban only applied to future aquisitions? I believe this is the way it works in the States, if youve got one when they ban it, you keep it but cannot sell it or buy another one. Could this be the basis for an appeal? We would be in a better position to argue the point if our firearms were returned and the crime rate did not increase. We could reasonably say that when the ban was total the incidence of shootings with handguns went up, and having been given back our guns it had stayed the same. -- Dave Reay -- I did argue this point with the Home Office at the time but with no effect. Their argument was that it wasn't retrospective legislation and compensation was being paid anyway. Steve. Steve, Yes, but, you now have the necessary proof that the suppositions of the GCN and the others who were agitating against you were -- and are -- wrong. You were not the problem, and never were. Certainly if you must make that salient point to them and additionally point out that your group of citizens were never a statistical problem for either the police or the other areas of law enforcement and administration, then your 'privileges' should be fully restored. If none of the prior firearms owners has since been accosted for illegal possession of outlawed arms, then it points statistically significant that you were not ever the problem. And if you were not the problem, then the law must be changed to reflect to truth of the matter, not a political assumption that lacks every essence of proof. ET -- The problem with the argument on retrospective legislation is that even if we successfully argued it in court, the outcome would be meaningless. The guns have been destroyed, so the court would order proper compensation be paid. But we already have compensation for the guns (various spare parts not included) so it wouldn't help. You might be able to argue some sort of punitive damages I suppose but that is a really long shot. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know in Canada they always allow people to keep things when they ban them, but they didn't in Australia, the argument being the same as here - compensation was paid. Steve. Steve, Yeah, they do the same thing in the US too, except that we have a 14th Amendment that essentially shuts that down: equal protection under the law. Which is to say that grandfathering is a divide and conquer scheme, as it set the current haves apart from the want to have. ET -- But no gun law has ever been struck down on that basis, has it? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah, they do the same thing in the US too, except that we have a 14th Amendment that essentially shuts that down: equal protection under the law. Which is to say that grandfathering is a divide and conquer scheme, as it set the current haves apart from the want to have. ET -- But no gun law has ever been struck down on that basis, has it? Steve. Steve, No, but only because noone has challenged it on the 14th Amendment grounds. The court can only hear what has been challenged. ET -- I know the AW ban was challenged on 14th Amendment grounds because it specifies certain makes of guns that are banned, but that argument was ruled inadmissable. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-book advert glamorises violence
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] Police chief in gang murder inquiry says book advert glamorises violence By Jason Bennetto, Crime Correspondent Independent, 11 September 2000 A Police commander investigating a spate of gang murders has lodged a complaint with the Advertising Standards Authority about a publicity campaign for Penguin books, which he says glamorises gun violence. --snip-- The nationwide campaign, which included posters and press advertisements, featured two American teenagers. --snip-- The campaign has been attacked by a leading Scotland Yard detective, who said it was irresponsible and that it was helping to spread the "American gangster ethos" and promote the idea of guns as "fashion accessories". Commander Mike Fuller, the head of Operation Trident, the 160-strong squad set up to investigate black-on-black Yardie-influenced shootings in London, yesterday wrote to the ASA to complain about the use of the gun image. --snip-- Since 1999 there have been 29 drug-related murders in the capital, six this year. [...] Memo to the Police chief: Yeah, damnit! We Americans are really to blame for all of this. If it weren't for all of those evil looking black guns, well hey, we' be just as civil as say, London -- right? It seems just too darned convenient to blame a community that is way across the ocean for all that has gone wrong with your own community. But, wait a bloody minute here! We don't make your laws, we don't bloody enforce your laws either! So, bucko, where do you get off blaming us Americans for YOUR failings? If you have a community problem, it is YOU that has the community problem. Sort of like a family problem, where you don't blame the bloke up the street, or the one over in Wales for your own kid's behavioral problems. As we say here in America, responsibility -- as with charity -- begins in the home. If you are gonna make excuses for your own failings, then you will never find out the real reason for those failings. And making excuses is the first step in the process to making bad laws, for like excuses, bad laws allow you to continue making excuses: there is never any accountability. Pardon the pun, but it's a 'cop-out' for the Chief of Police to blame another community for his community's shortcomings. ET -- Why don't you write direct to the Commander?G Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Who to vote for
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] In view of this we all decided to stay at home next polling day like last time. He must have been joking wasn't he? We never found out since he sloped off muttering something about us seeming naive. Well, are any of them worth voting for? What about the UK Independance Party? [...] I agree with Steve: [...] Forget totally about parties, when it comes to shooting at any rate. Most people (or politicians at any rate) seem to base their opinion on guns with a healthy dose of bigotry, so it doesn't matter what party they represent. --snip-- In my experience support for shooting is more readily identified by the location of the candidate, most representing urban areas are anti and most representing rural areas are pro. That's why we're in such big trouble in this country, because we have one of the most urban societies in the world. [...] Bingo! The same situation exists here as well. The more developed - real estate wise - the more inclined toward restrictions on firearms, although I will say the initiative 676 back in 1996 in Washington did surprise HCI, in that 70 percent of the voters were against the proposed law. It must be a matter of perception, because the antis were flooding the media every day with their message. In the last month of that ordeal, the SAF and the NRA went maximum with their messages of doom. The effect worked, but not in the way they think. Most people here own one of more arms, and it really is a way of life for a lot of people. All it takes is the understanding that the police are not going to be anywhere near you when the next violent criminal decides to strike, and the idea of not being able to offer any credible resistance is enough for most women to understand that they are essentially 'meat', and the idea of being disarmed is not very appealing at all. I don't know of any woman who is willing to just 'lay there' while some pervert has his way, and then confront themselves with the idea that not only might the rapist be an AIDS carrier, but that he might dispatcher her permanently as well when he is done with her. That idea does not sit well with women. Better to be armed than to be dying or dead. ET -- I haven't had a look at the new census, but the 1990 census said that 50% of Americans lived in towns with a population of 20,000 or less, so it is not surprising that Americans have fared better than us on the gun issue. I've been to places in the US (like the whole entire State of West Virginia!) where the only plausible recreation is hunting or fishing. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-FMJ v. HPBT
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- I don't think that propellant gasses actually melt bullets, if they did I think it would be a problem with military guns that do use boat tails with exposed cores. Jonathan Laws. -- But not with the flatbase bullets that Berger makes, as Andrew pointed out already. Those would be easier as FMJ. Steve. Steve, Jonathan, Allow me this one hypothesis. I have a SW 686S that also experiences leading, depending on what type of bullet I shoot. My thoughts are that in unjacketed bullets, the propensity for lead deposits is a matter of fact because of the way lead behaves under pressure, and due to the fact of its softness. Since metal in gun barrels -- especially rifled barrels is not anywhere near a glassy smooth surface, and because lead acts as its own lubricant (much as a brass bushing will act as a lubricant to a steel shaft in slow rpm devices), then lead will deposit to the companion surface it finds itself against - even hard alloy lead. The matter of soft lead is not so much the problem as the state that lead will find itself in the presence of heat. The softer the lead I believe, the greater the propensity for it to turn plastic on its outer molecular surface. If this is the case, then is would seem an easy matter to solve for by merely treating it with a conversion coating for its outer layer. I have no chemical in mind, but there possibly is something 'out there' that might work well. Lead doesn't have to melt to become a problem, merely soft enough to leave traces of it on the companion surfaces of the cylinder bore, and barrel, respectively. ET -- I'm not sure what causes it, but I'm convinced it happens. Perhaps the friction of the bullet against the barrel generates enough heat in the projectile that some of the lead at the base of the bullet vapourises, or perhaps it is as simple as the pressure built up pressing on the base of the bullet and knocking it out of shape. 9x25 Dillon was notorious for having problems with FMJ bullets. I can't believe it was simply the shooters imaginations. One of the main reasons 9x25 Dillon is so rarely used is because people can't afford to buy JHP bullets to load it with. I have heard some say this is all to do with the OAL length of cartridge, but Rob Leatham and Willy Peache both told me that FMJ bullets simply melted at the base. These guys between them probably shoot more ammo than everyone on this list put together, so I'm not going to simply ignore what they have told me. Who knows, maybe some idiot told them this and they believed it and simply repeated it! I will look into it a bit further as it was several years ago that I had these conversations. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-neighbours protest Olympic medal winners range
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got to strongly disagree with you Alex, if he took notice of his neighbours he wouldn't have that Gold medal. This is an urbanised country, the fact that the rest of the village are blaming it on "townies" indicates that it is not a universal view among the villagers. Where are we supposed to put ranges? There is nowhere else. People always moan about the noise, there's not that much that can be done about it. Steve. Steve, The same issue resides in here in the US as well. There are several places in the last 20 years that I know of, which have been put out of business because of noise by certain elements of the area population. Case in point: there was an open range for both pistol and shot/skeet, nearby where I live -- about a mile and a half as the crow flies. It happens to be on county airport property. It also happens to be next to an 'up-scale' subdivision, that complains every chance it gets about the noise that the airplanes make - big and small. The airport has been at that location since WWII. Now you tell me: if who was there first was already engaged in their activity, and does it only in the normal working hours of the day, then who the heck is a newcomer to complain when they should have assessed themselves of where they were moving? To be fair with Alex, there should be some consideration as to what the conditions are, and a constant din would be a difficult thing to abide. A well designed pistol range can reduce the noise considerably. With shot/skeet I'm not so sure. But all in all, by the description of the operating hours -- mighty darned minimal if you ask me -- then the complaints are a bit on the whiner side of things: sounds like complainers want their way the whole way. What's next -- are the cattle farmers to move off-shore so as not to offend the finer, more sophisticated proboscises? They tried that here too, the farmers won. They tried it with the growers because of the dust that was kicked up during tilling. The farmers won. And always, it is the city transplants doing the moaning, complaining, suing, and pouting. My suggestion: Make it an ordinance that before you can change the character of a place, you must have lived there as a resident for not less than 10 months every year, for at least 20 full years. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-NIMBY, Olympic medals, town v country
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As the townies are in the majority and growing, nothing will be achieved by puffing our chests and claiming rights to continue with a tradition. No one has the right to disturb others and we must accept some gradual erosion of the freedom of choice due to the spread of population. Claiming that "we were there first" affords no protection in law. I think that the only way to save shooting in the villages is to make an effort to integrate these newcomers with the locals as soon as they arrive. Turn them into adopted countrymen if you can. Invite them to your house for "drinks before lunch" and try to promote community spirit. --snip-- Our biggest problem is that our sport needs space which is at a premium and diminishing. Alex Steve, Alex, Alex, there has been way too much force used by transplants (pick a country -- any country) to change what they happen not to like, merely because they can get away with it. If all you ever need to effect a change is a simple majority, then nobody is safe. And, if the courts can be made to bend to that simple majority, then the communists have won. Call them what you will, but in your statement above, you are emphatically stating that nobody's way of life is safe from the will of a simple majority. That isn't what your laws state, nor what those historical documents that predate and give your current laws validity. Allowing this matter to come down on the side of the complainers is setting one heck of a precedent. All you need do is extrapolate their win to just anything: if it offends, it ends. I don't need to tell you this, but the antis are setting the stage for a protracted war, and the winners aren't going to have much to look forward to when it is over. Better to nip this kind of crap in the bud before it really gets out of hand. If in the appeals of the decision, it is brought forth that the complainers just jumped in without looking, then it is they who should be made to either put up, or move. If you don't like the character of a neighborhood after you have been there a while, its not up to everyone else to change so as to meet your whims; you either adapt, or pickup and leave. To expect otherwise and employ the power of government to wipe your behind and wipe-out the neighbors that offend you, is beyond the pale of reason. It should be remembered here, that all law is a twin edged sword that cuts just as finely in what ever direction it happens to swing. ET -- The main problem is not the availability of ranges, (although it is a problem in some areas), the main problems are the hostile legal environment and the small number of shooters! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Small but perfectly formed
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eight-year-old suspended over key-ring An eight-year-old schoolboy in the US has been suspended for taking a gun-shaped key-ring into class. Education chiefs in Green Bay, Wisconsin said the student was suspended for a day because he breached their ban on carrying replica firearms. The key-ring is about an inch-and-a-half in length. Steve, The same exact thing happened here in Seattle, last year I do believe. This is all predicated on the thought of 'Zero Tolerance', or the theme of absolute conformance. It is the mindset that is being used by the federal government to ultimately fix in the minds of children that firearms are 'bad', and therefore must be shunned whenever, and wherever they are seen. It is tantamount to changing the culture, and the antis pursue this policy whenever they get the chance. In the above, the federal government gets to make this call, even though it should be a state's call, because the states are taking money from the fed, and the fed gets to call the shots or the state loses the money. ET -- I have some Glock keyrings which have a tiny replica Glock 17 on them, I'll remember not to carry one in a US school! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Bear Knuckle Fighting?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Man fights bear with bare fists A 64-year-old man punched a bear in the face after it attacked him, causing the animal to run off. Steve, Kenneth, That is highly unusual! Most black bear attacks that are known, usually resulted in the death of the person. Brown bears, for all their ferocity, can be persuaded to depart the scene in several ways, whereas black bears will tend to stick around to maul the hell out of you -- usually ending in death. The standing advice to visitors at Northwest Trek in Seattle, is that if attacked by a black bear, fight like there's no tomorrow -- or their might not be one. In the woods I take no chance: I pack a .50 AE. If that doesn't convince them . . . Of course, a well placed sock to the nose might do it too, it would seem. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Anne Pearston
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've spoken to several journalists over the years, from all the major papers and Channel 4 and the BBC, and as soon as you tell them what the truth actually is they fall into a coma and at best you stop them from running the story. Steve. Steve, Maybe you need to ignite their imagination? If the liars who are the fronts for the legislation that has been passed were made to actually stand up and defend their words with actual facts that can be applied to each and every shooter who has done no harm to anyone . . . It seems to me that if you were to be invited to a program which was sponsored by one of the news media that was constantly in support of the antis view, and if you could manage to expose the fact that none of the laws had accomplished any of the supposed benefits promised beforehand, But to get there from where you are now is going to be a challenge, simply because the ones with the agenda don't want a different perception getting out. So far, it is only the GCN et. al., perceptions that are being heard; and as you stated previously, Pearston is seemingly always at hand with a ready remark or comment - ever incendiary. Okay, then that means you need at least two other pro-freedom people who are equally as ready and just as versed in Pearston's arguments so as to effectively disarm her position, and be just as incendiary. And, BTW, if you shooters want to be seen as a balanced lot, it behooves you to have as many women as speakers as you can muster. Pearston would be just flabbergasted to have to come up against another woman who was a more than her match. Chances are she would avoid every open debate in order to forestall her loss in a public forum. But that only means that your women shooters must be making press releases on a daily basis, going to the various media outlets and hounding them in the same fashion as Pearston, since she has set the tone, let here live with the results of it. If it takes just getting motivated, I have a feeling that there are some really well qualified speakers who shoot, and who are of the fairer sex over yonder in Britain. If the media is hounded on a daily basis by the rest of you in support of your women spokespeople, who are making every attempt to get an open debate on the issue going between them and Pearston, and if Pearston isn't talking, then you raise the level of the anti a whole measure higher by making it one of the daily things you do: call/write/e-mail the media and demand a showdown - since it is the media that made Pearston their bloody hero. Sooner or later their house of cards is going to collapse -- please try to make it happen sooner. ET -- I don't think you realise the situation here, who is that idiot who presents for Channel 4 news? John Simpson? He is as anti-gun as they come. I had a real fight on my hands to stop them from running some idiotic story a few years back. Journalism isn't about reporting the news, it's about increasing ratings or selling more newspapers. They're not vaguely interested in "fair" or the "truth", IMO. At best they are crusaders for what they think is "right", just like politicians really, so maintaining the status quo is the furthest thing from their minds. You can succeed with local papers and local TV but our TV is not like in the US where you have lots of local stations, they're nearly all national. They do have local news so it is possible to get something pro-gun on if you try hard enough, but expecting the BBC to give a semblance of fairness to this issue is a joke. I mean I was only just watching Jack Straw attempting to explain why 5,000 extra police officers actually means 2,500 less. I sit and watch breathlessly for the questioner to point out L100 million was spent on banning handguns and at least four times as many people have been murdered with them since the ban as were murdered at Dunblane. But they don't ask the question because the journalists are just as anti as everyone else. However, having said all that, we do need some spokespeople on call. You need to be listed in Who's who and have some decent PR done to get in the journalist's filofaxes, at least then you get to have a soundbite in the middle of a pile of anti-gun dross. Michael Yardley seemed to be the man of choice but he seems to have fallen off the radar scope of late. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Reuters on proposals
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Britain Beefs Up Controls on Firearms LONDON (Reuters) - Britain said Wednesday it was tightening up firearms controls, including new restrictions on shotguns and raising the minimum age for owning a gun to 18. --snip-- ``Our firearms controls are already among the strongest in the world, and these new proposals will increase their effectiveness,'' Clarke said in a statement. Police swiftly hailed the move, as ministers vowed to help them beat gun-related crime. Chief Superintendent Peter Gammon, president of the Police Superintendents Association, said: ``The number of offences involving firearms has increased. Drugs play a part. But what we've seen is a propensity to use more weapons. rest deleted (gag!) Steve, So, like, if you are being strangled to death, and the strangler decides to squeeze even harder, does that mean that you might live a bit longer? Famous quote: "Our firearms controls are already among the strongest in the world, and these new proposals will increase the effectiveness." So, if they are among the 'strongest in the world', but you are still having a problem, what (hint! hint!) should that tell you? If, by instituting those controls, you have increased the criminality and the criminal behavior of the population, does it necessarily follow that a 'magic' break-over point will happen and criminal behavior will also 'magically' disappear? Or, will the realists please stand up and proclaim to the dunce at the head of the class that what the Brits are experiencing is a classic display of linear behavior: The cause of the effect is the effect itself -- the law created the problem, therefor the law _is_ the problem. By criminalizing a previously legal behavior, the government have created a whole new class of criminal. Additionally, having managed to elevate the possession of firearms from a normal behavior to that of a glamorous affect among those who would seek to elevate their status among their peers by possession of them, they have -- in one fell swoop -- increased the number of unknown arms of all types beyond imagination of those who would control them. If the intent of the law was to minimize the quantity of a thing, it has failed miserably. I can't quite fathom the mind of the politician in denial, as it seems that no amount of truth will effect a corrective course in the pattern of thinking. For some reason the term 'lemming' comes neatly to mind. Now, if they would just as neatly go jump off a cliff . . . ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-how to deal with roadkill
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you hit something, game or not, you must leave it (having dispatched it to prevent un-nessasary suffering of course), the guy behind may pick it up though as he didn't hit it. Its all to do with stopping people deliberately swerving to kill something (poaching in effect), accident or not if you hit it you must not take it. Niel, trying to catch-up with two weeks worth of back-log. Steve, Niel, Interesting, that. Now, suppose there were two vehicles travelling a roadway, and they were acting in concert: one to hit the beasties, the other to collect them. Kind of points out the uselessness of the law, eh? I would have thought that merely reporting the event -- in the case of a managed game animal -- would be all that is necessary. If someone is intent on hitting his next meal, there's no law that will stop him from doing just that. On the other hand, allowing the hitter to collect the kill and simply report it, would in my estimation help in determining the population density of that particular species, and where their greatest concentrations are, and help in managing them better. It would also help in determining if someone is actually engaged in the act of poaching. Methinks that the act of poaching conducted as road killing is probably largely over estimated (read: way out of proportion to the actual event). ET -- I've seen bicycle tyre pumps converted to fire .410 shot shells, never quite sure how well poachers did with them though! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Police close bad apple website
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] In today's Nov 2, 2000, "Times" there is following by Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent ""A police force took legal action to close down a website on police corruption run by one of its own officers. Inspector Andrew Catlin, former head of Surrey Police's Firearms Unit, started the site to publicise his concerns about senior officers and complaints from colleagues and the public. The force was given the court injunction at the weekend to close the site because its address is too close to that of the force's web site. Mr Catlin was due to begin operation on www.surreypolice.com yesterday; the official Surrey Police site is www.surrey.police.uk Steve, Tom, I tried to access the http://www.surreypolice.com web site, and this: http://uk2.net/ turned up instead. The other http://www.surrey.police.uk takes you to what looks to be the bona fide police web site. Anybody know what happened to the 'corruption' site? ET ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As there has been so much venom vented on this topic, I would love to know what views the contributors hold on the subject of who should not be allowed to hold a firearm or shotgun certificate. I take it that it is the general consensus that there should be at least some restriction somewhere along the line? I would find it most illuminating to know whether the classes of people I categorise as dodgy are different to anyone else. --snip-- I will not change my opinions on this one. I see them all. You only see some. IG -- The only gun law I have ever really felt is worthwhile is a background check before a person takes possession. Licensing, registration, all the rest of it is largely worthless because once a person has a gun, they can misuse it if they choose. I did submit a very comprehensive paper to the HO outlining a new licensing system, although that was based largely with an eye on the political realities of the situation. --snip If it was intended to protect public safety it would have long since been centralised under a central administration, like virtually everything to do with cars, planes and most other things has. Steve. Steve, IG, Having been here before, I will only say that I agree with Steve. And, IG? You have the laws that you must contend with, as a sworn member of your force. I would not have your job for any amount of money. My personal philosophy on liberty would prevent any such happenstance. If ordered to perform it, I would refuse. It is one of the prime reasons that I would not accept a job in any police force: I could not find myself enforcing laws antithetical to my beliefs. If the laws were simple in the tenets of liberty, then I would have no compunctions. Whatever you do is your own business, but if enough men and women in the police forces were to object to such duties on the grounds that they were objectionable, and accomplished little in the way of reducing crime and added safety, then things might change. And, as Steve commented in an earlier post, by what measure of the law is a man or woman considered 'dodgy'? And, I'd like to ask one simple question: what is so wrong with just wanting something? Is that such a crime? When people are reduced to begging to be able to do something that would otherwise not harm anyone, you really have to wonder just what is next. Know what I mean? As for myself, I intend to be a large roadblock on the way to hell: If I can convince enough people to march in the other direction that the rest start to follow, I won't mind at all that hell is on my heels! -- Let's make one thing clear here, even if I was a member of mom and a clone of Sarah Brady I still wouldn't be advocating the British system of control. If I worshipped at the alter of licensing and registration I still wouldn't advocate the British method because it is sheer nonsense. Virtually every British colony or possession had this system imposed on them, from New Zealand to Canada, and nearly all of them have scrapped it. Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan, New Zealand, even the Falkland Islands all have licensing and registration to one degree or another, but their systems of control are substantially different. The only place I have found of any size that still uses the British system is good old Lesotho! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve: it's simpler than even that. A scanner used with a CAD program, will produce almost anything within reason, depending upon the capabilities of the machinery (tolerances). Peter: Your first comment above is legion; that is why it is ignored by even the most assessed of the facts. What would the people say if the truth of the matter were finally told? What would they say if finally assessed of the fact that only total, uncompromising and brutal subjugation of the 'masses' was the only way to effect a complete and utterly disarmed population? It will happen, and soon, if your fellows don't manage to shake a leg sooner that later. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny reality for financial reasons and so do the police. --snip-- Steve, Norman, Neglecting Steve's remarks: Come now, Norman, you are comparing apples and clams. In IG's defence (as if he needed that), the tobacco companies and the tobacco users deserve each other. Anybody who consumes that stuff (and I did for 15 years), in the face of all of the press and evidence which pretty much covered all the ground that needed to be covered regarding health hazards, in quantities that are surely to be deleterious to one's health, deserves to be ignored, and disregarded as a fool. I smoked for 15 years, from the time I was 15 until the age of 30. Amazing (isn't it?) how long it takes one to learn a lesson? Smoking by itself, once or twice a day (which was the usual back a long time ago) isn't considered deleterious to the healthy person. The Ad men did us in by inducing the young and impressionable to go 'whole hog' and do it all the time. Maybe we should sue the ad agencies? I'll let IG answer the other stuff. In all due respect to yourself, the matter is that as Steve has stated. There are some things which are quite beyond one's control. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR ruling
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- The claim for loss of profits pursued in the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) by MPC on behalf of the firerarms retailers and dealers had been declared inadmissible on the grounds that there was not a reasonable expectation that the firearms in question (pistols) would remain permitted to be legally owned by private individuals indefinitely. --snip-- Alex Hamilton -- I don't know but I always thought a suit in the ECJ stood more chance of success than the ECHR anyway. However, I don't understand this ruling because there was more to the suit than just loss of future business. There were gun clubs that were not compensated for the loss of their property for one thing. I have to say this is the most bizarre ruling I have seen, of course there was a reasonable expectation they would stay legal, on that basis no-one would ever start a business if there was an expectation it could be illegal tomorrow. Steve. Steve, Alex, Bizarre ruling? That's an understatement! From the 'sounds' of it, the court seems to be saying it is a foregone conclusion that the private possession of firearms it the EU is slated for elimination. Other than that, the courts ruling is extremely faulted by the mere presence of those same 'pistols' elsewhere' in other EU nations. You guys had better start asking some serious questions in the nations where your pistols are being kept. That ruling stinks to high blue heaven. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- The ECHR is not a creature of the EU, non-EU states have signed the ECHR and the ECHR has ruled on cases that originate in non-EU states. However signing up to the ECHR is a pre-condition of entry to the EU. I thought the argument Guy came up with about the Treaty of Rome being violated made more sense to me. That argument is that Section 5 dealers (of which there are 500) can legally sell (and do, Weller Duftys do it all the time) handguns to other parts of the EU but dealers in the other states cannot sell them here. Thus there is not free movement of goods as required by the Treaty. The problem I see with that argument is that dealers do import handguns for sale deactivated and also to people in Northern Ireland and people who have authority under one of the exemptions in the 1997 Act, but I think it would be interesting to see what the ECJ had to say about the disparate levels of regulation among EU states, they might rule that regulation could only be established with a clear showing that it would enhance public safety or a maximum or minimum standard that gun laws can be in terms of restrictiveness. They might even rule the EU must establish an EU-wide system of regulation that is wholly consistent. The Government would surely argue that the ban on handguns was for public safety reasons that override any trade concern, the problem they would have is that there is no indication of an impact on handgun-related crime so the argument of public safety lacks evidence. However, the reality with all these court challenges is that judges dislike guns just as much as your average MP, so you end up with daft rulings like the one made by the ECHR. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society. I would like to thank you though for starting this discussion, whatever your motives or whether officially sanctioned or not. Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here. IG -- What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least. Statistics for London are reasonably comprehensive. Steve. Steve, IG, S, you guys really did have lots of fun, back in Merry ol' England, didn't ya? grin It was never that way here in the US, even when we wuz a pack of recalcitrant colonies! We were too sexually represses for that kind of fun. Of course, that was back when you guys REALLY knew how to let your hair down chuckle, snort! guffaw!. Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-drugs
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] ""Are you implying that we have a law regulating the MISUSE of drugs? --snip-- I've had friends use recreational drugs in the past, and I can tell you that this is a prime example of prohibition causing more problems than it ever solves. --snip-- -- I totally agree with you John, there are so many people in Walsall who have gotten onto heroin the way you describe that it is exceptionally hard for anyone to convince me that marijuana and ecstacy should remain illegal. --snip-- Also clearing out the jails of people convicted of growing marijuana would make space to keep the smack dealers in for much longer periods of time. Steve. Steve, John, Well, if you were to go the complete run and re-legalize the whole group of drugs that are currently outlawed, and merely make them obtainable by signature at a local apothecary/pharmacy or what have you, then the government would have a real idea as to the dimensions of drug use within the community -- something they have no idea of now. And, if every item were packaged with a description of the actual effects upon the body that the substance will have, as well as the long term effects, that could serve as a restraint. And, instead of playing the current lock'em up game, it would be a much better use of funds to simply have treatment centers for those who wanted to kick the addiction. As for the illegal market? If the price is so low that even the most poor could well purchase whatever, then there is no black market. To be sure, there would always be the abusers, but the glamor aspect has been removed. And the caveat of illegal usage: no concurrent activities that would cause others harm. If the price for breaking that law is stiff enough, it would deter the greater number. As you know, there will always be the hard cases. Allow me this: those who become addicted to any substance are pretty much of the same psychology: the aren't sick people, they are looking for an out from something that is bothering them. I you can get them into counseling, you can get to root causes of their dilemma. The general idea of getting young people to stay away from abusive drug use, isn't well thought out. Nobody I know of simply tells them the real story: "Your bodies are still growing, and everything you put into them will have an effect later on in life. When you abuse a substance, you are essentially weakening the building blocks of your life, creating possible havoc later on down the line. Everything in life is momentary except life itself. "Act in haste, regret in leisure". And regret lasts a lot longer than haste." Young people aren't taught to think in terms longer than the shortest spans of time, thus deriving the shortsighted mental attitudes that prevails in almost every culture. But that's another story. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- My personal view based on far too much sorry experience with young people in the local area is that any drug that has seriously harmful effects and is addictive should be banned. But also things like ecstacy and marijuana which at best are only mildly addictive and have mild health effects should be legal. My theory being the one of the lesser of several evils. Driving through some of the council estates in Walsall is an enlightening experience. There are people who live in Blakenhall who have sold the glass and doors out of their council house to buy heroin. People who advocate total legalisation do so on a flawed assumption of economics. I've always said that the problem with libertarianism is that it works great on civil rights, not so well with economics. If a substance is highly addictive, then demand is perfectly inelastic, regardless of price. The higher the price becomes the more crime you have as people attempt to obtain money to buy it. The only way to stop this is to stop people using it in the first place, and that means in part stopping the supply. The other half is to cut down on demand but I don't care how much money they pump into drug treatment, I have seen too many people on methadone one day and smack the next. The problem in many areas is that people simply won't admit they have a drug problem, because everyone around them uses drugs. If you can't get them to admit they have a problem, you can't treat them. So logically the finite resources of the police and Customs should be focused on the most damaging drugs, and the only way to do that is to legalise those drugs which don't do the damage. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-law-abiding?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whatever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? Puzzled a bit by this one. Who said anything about innocent or gulity? Semantics is not a favourite subject, but here we go. --snip-- IG, Go back and read your original comment. It was to the effect that there were no innocent people, only those who were not yet found out. The gist is that the world is full of criminals just waiting to happen. My terrier would rather chase rats than come to me. So I agree, they are good judges. Hope these drugs dogs didn't cock their legs on you tho! Well, all that proves is that your dog sees you as a lesser rat not worth chasing snicker. And, no, those dogs never cocked a leg in my direction. Dogs show respect by deferring to those whom they see as either equals or betters. Dogs don't pee on their friends. In my book, if you ain't under arrest, or being pursued, they you is as legal as legal can be. And no man has any authority to cast doubt upon you without reason. Hold on. In the states, does every arrest lead to a conviction Yippee. I'm on the way!! IG There you go again. Where did I infer that every arrest lead to a conviction? All I said was that if one not under arrest, or under suspicion for an illegal act, that one is free. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-schizophrenia
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's another good read. It might explain more than just a few things. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a1ccaff6e8f.htm -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-drugs
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Many addicts with access to legal diamorphine (or morphine, or cocaine, or whatever) have lived useful, productive, happy lives without a great deal of damage to themselves and with absolutely none to society. My guess is that history will judge the proscription of (some) drugs that we have now in much the same way that we think about the witchcraft laws. jd -- Oh, it's the way it's marketed for sure, what annoys me is when people think that it is the user's own stupid fault etc. Drug dealers are con artists. They pick on young people because they know they are naive, and the increase in heroin use among young people is staggering. In Walsall ten years ago it was virtually unknown in my experience, but go into town during lunch time now and it's "spot the smackhead". --snip-- The solution as far as I'm concerned is legalise all the Class B drugs and slap a life sentence on anyone caught dealing Class A drugs on the second offence. Steve. Steve, John, In either case of the above, there is that element of the citizen accepting, or being made to accept self-responsibility, and accountability. Children can be somewhat excepted from this rule, but it still begs the question of control. Presuming for a moment that if there were almost complete legalization, with access only through pharmaceutical outlets, and with a price structure that would effectively compete the black market out of existence, then the criminal element is forced to move on to greener pastures. If a junkie knows that a fix costs less, has guaranteed quality, and can access clean medical supplies without the hassle of arrest, then guess where he will go? No threats, no hassles, no need to be part of a crime scene, no fear of compromise, no aspect of blackmail, no furtive forays to seek drugs. In short: no criminality. It also effectively guarantees the 'authorities' of an accurate assessment of drug use in the nation, and even where it might be centered. It doesn't take much to extrapolate the US experience with alcohol prohibition to what all of us are now experiencing in our respective nations with psychoactive substances. If it can be accomplished with alcohol, it can certainly be done with other drugs. To blanket prohibit anything literally invites it to be a subject of black market interests. I agree that addiction is a vile and cruel malady, but it is better to have -- in my mind -- someone who is an addict who obtained the substance from a source of known accountability, and be able to say with a certainty that that person exists in the community, than to have any substance awash in that same community having no standards or controls for purity, and not be able to quantify usage, and identify the addicts much beyond when they become incapacitated or victims in the sense of the several aspects that result of the addiction, the most prominent of which is crime. It used to work at one time. One wonders what the real motive was that created the morass we experience. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Sorry ET, but I'm convinced the libertarian view is this instance is complete nonsense, because of what I said previously about economics. Heroin is already inexpensive so it hardly matters about where the supply comes from, the only way to stop the supply is stop the dealers (same theory as gun crime really, get the criminals rather than the guns). If you have inelastic demand, then the price will be whatever it is, and you will still have addicts, you will still have addicts committing burglaries to feed their habit, you will still have monumental health costs associated with treating them all. You only have to look at what has happened in Switzerland, they took a laid back view and now they have the highest proportion of heroin addicts in Europe, 5% of the population and their health care costs because of it have skyrocketed. Finally they have decided to crack down on it. There is a reason the Chinese went to war to stop the English from shipping the stuff in to China. Heroin and crack cocaine (or rather amphetamines cooked up like cocaine) are extremely addictive and cause serious health problems, vastly worse than alcohol or tobacco. I've seen it happen with too many people. For example, a lot of girls take heroin to lose weight. Not only that, but Walsall has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the EU, and a lot of girls in the area binge on heroin to cause miscarriages. And so it goes. We've had burglaries at our premises by heroin addicts who are so desperate that they cut themselves getting over the spikes on the gates, and then literally punch through the glass and grab whatever they can steal, blood everywhere. Rational people, even criminals don't do that. Steve. Cybersh
CS: Legal-United Airline employee convicted of gun thefts
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] United Airlines Employee Sentenced for Theft of U.S. Mail And Sale Of Stolen Guns, Reports U.S. Attorney --snip-- Let me get this straight, some poor guy in Tallahassee gets five years for buying a gun he thought he could legally own, submitting himself to a background check, and they get every Fed in Massachusetts on this guy who steals eight guns and he gets two years and three months? Steve. Steve, N.L., Nobody said that there was any 'proportionality' in the law, they only said that there was a law. All this, you understand, in the name of 'getting tough' on 'gun crime'. As if there was any difference in stealing a firearm as opposed to something else from the mails. This is what happens when the law is perverted to serve a vile purpose. Not unlike 'hate crimes' legislation. I wonder what it feels like to hit the bottom of the politics barrel? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-.458
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's a gunsmith in Austria who makes revolvers in .458 Winchester Magnum, there was a review in Internationales Waffen Magazin. Presumably he makes them for novelty value. I personally wouldn't fancy shooting top loaded .458's out of a revolver! (Wouldnt mind watching someone else do it tho) I bet he doesnt sell many! Can anyone think of a use for a .458 win mag revolver? IG -- Well, it would seem a good candidate for a slightly longer barrel, going by the picturesG. Steve. Steve, IG, Oh man, I can't believe this! Heck, there's a company that makes a pistol that shoots .50 BMG. They -- until recently had a picture of a gal shooting it. And you chaps are complaining about a .458? Geez, really! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- But that's a single shot isn't it? This is a revolver. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Stop or I'll chant!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you lawfully hold a firearm for, say, shooting deer, there is absolutely nothing wrong in using it for self defence in the home PROVIDED that: It is the minimum force required in the circumstances. It is proportional to the perception of the threat at the time. The full circumstances are such that it is reasonable. Let me state an example... You come face to face with an intruder, who is armed with a knife and threatens you with it. You are able to reach your firearm, and in turn, threaten the intruder with it, who surrenders and is arrested by the police. (yes, your initial actions are an arrest, I know.) No problem. Lets examine this scenario, under the presumption that if my firearms are kept to the conditions on my firearm certificate, which states on the certificate, in Para. 4(a) ; --snip-- Steve, Tim, Loved it Tim! Here's my choice scenario: Burglar breaks in making a considerable bit of noise. Home owner awakens and shouts: "Ho! I have firearms securely locked away, and I am about to look for the keys! You are forewarned to depart the premises!" The burglar, thusly warned, shouts back: Ha! Looser! While you are rummaging around for those keys, I shall make myself at home with some tea and crumpets!" Home owner fumbles interminably with the keys, cussing loudly all the while, and finally manages to get one in the first lock. He shouts "Yo! Scumbag, your time is short! I have but one key to insert and twelve combination locks to twist, and your butt will thence be mine!" The burglar, having feasted upon several tasty crumpets, a few pots of tea, a leg of lamb, and some whiskey, manages the following, with a half full mouth: " Yeah, sure, Ya Betcha!" The home owner is now in the home stretch, working on the last combination, and yells out: "Time is short, scumbag! I'm a-coming real soon!" The burglar, now fully sated upon food and drink, and works rummaging through the house, yells: "That's what you said an hour ago, turkey!" The home owner, finally manages to liberate a single shot (only one legal now) shotgun, and runs down stairs to accost the burglar only to find him in the arms of his wife, both of whom seem totally oblivious to his presence. The home owner calls 999 (911 if you are in the US) and is promptly arrested for employing intimidating tactics with a firearm (we'll get around to quoting the appropriate law later). -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Tea and crumpets? Don't take up script writing! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Stop or I'll chant!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] :::Fair enough but would you apply this logic to other objects that, if misused, could severly endanger the public. For instance motor vehicles or matches? Yes, certainly. There are some people that shouldnt be allowed anywhere near either of the above. My wife being one of them, in the case of cars anyway. Probably matches, too, if she reads this. IG Steve, IG, Quick, IG, what's her e-mail address? smirk -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Bill of Rights
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "John Hurst", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- Page 75 quotes the case of Bowles v. Bank of England confirms that the Bill of Rights remains an operative statute BTW. Page 10 contains the following passage; "The underlying purpose of firearms legislation in the UK is to control the supply and possession of all rifles, guns and pistols which could be used for criminal or subversive purposes while recognising that individuals may own and use firearms for legitimate purposes...". --snip-- Steve, John, Please -- once again -- forgive my apparent ignorance in the matter of how your Parliament makes law, but it seems rather absurd that a piece of legislation quotes a case of what we refer to here on this side of the big pond as 'settled law', and then proceeds to embark on a course of retrograde action. To wit: if the purpose of said legislation is what is stated, then what is the intent of implying that it is no longer a valid position? If the law worked before the fact such that the case law supported the contentions of the law prior, then what has changed? What I am asking is, if the law as initially enacted, was thought proper in all of its range of restraints, and has in its history of enforcement not produced a conflict with the court as regards the abilities of the citizens, then can not the current restrictions be challenged as to validity due to the merely spurious infractions of but a few actors? Is there not a premise in law that allows you to challenge a law that acts against the citizen without reason? And, cannot the 1920's set of restraints be challenged as well on the grounds that the inferred threat is no longer present? It seems to me that if the purpose of the 20's enactments were valid for that period, and since that threat is no longer valid, then the purpose for retaining the law is no longer valid either. It has merely served as a heinous foundation upon which to enact yet more prevarication denying the citizen a protected right. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Driving on the PROPER side...
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If my information is right the first 'real' aircraft carrier was HMS Furious (15th Aug 1916) a converted cruiser. According to a photo I have the 'island' was forward and in the center. You took off over the bows and landed over the stern. The other contender is HMS Ark Royal (1914)with aft superstructure you took off over the bows and landed in the sea to be taken on board by crane. regards Alex Steve, Alex, Well, Alex, I am not an accredited historian -- yet. However, the source I am about to quote is, as they say, unimpeachable: http://www.history.navy.mil/download/car-1.pdf It seems that the first carrier 'launch' was from USS Birmingham, and the first 'recovery' was on USS Pennsylvania. However, in the name of 'aircraft carrier' the Brits (damnit) seem to have had the upper hand in the innovation. So, okay, Alex, you get a free 1/4 keg of Hale's ales, or an equivalent amount in bottled brew whenever you happen to visit this part of the 'former colonies'. Go ahead, look for me, I dare ya! chuckle If you happen to be in this part of the US, drop me a line, and I'll fill that stein of yours for as long as you can down'em -- guaranteed!. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-statutory right of entry
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The VAT men (Customs and Excise) have always had awesome powers. Who would cheat the Queens revenue men? I wish the police had their powers. IG (only kidding) Steve , IG, Considering the implications of 'heritage' in law, this is one American who wonders how it came to be that the tax man managed to acquire such powers as to by-pass the local Sheriff in the area of enforcement. It would have been 'nice' had your henchmen of yore been completely dependant upon the local constabulary to assist them. Local police tend to have a more domestic outlook, because they do have to live in the area of their jurisdiction -- usually. Having to contend with the locals would, I think, impart a sense of humility -- no? In my opinion, however irrelevant it might be, all law enforcement should be local, and extend no further that the county. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- ". . . I now realise the amount of unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that own firearms certificates." Steve, IG, Well, IG, I guess that qualifies you as some kind of psychiatry professional, eh? Just what, I'd like to ask, is your unique qualification to denounce another citizen as being unfit to possess firearms, other than the stated disabilities under your law? And perhaps even more importantly, what are the scientific criteria that you apply? Should make interesting discussions for whatever legislative body is involved to remove ever more citizens from the rolls of 'firearms owner', by employing 'IG's Fiat'. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I have to say if IG is a licensing officer the police need very little in the way of evidence to revoke a certificate, so I find his statement a bit odd. The Acts state that the Chief Officer of Police must be satisfied: "that in all the circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace." Which is pretty broad. If IG is aware of dodgy people with certificates then it is fair to say the police haven't done their job properly. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Useful Quote
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The real cause of the American Revolution: "All persons in whose possession any firearms may hereafter be found, will be deemed enemies to his majesty's government." --Gen. Gage Steve, John, For the list, would you mind giving the attribute to that quote, and perhaps a researchable reference? Of late, because many quotes are turning out to be of questionable authenticity, it helps to have a solid source to point others to, and sustain our position. Would do wonders for us here in the 'colonies'. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-armed police raid wrong house
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] at least you Brits are civil about such errors. here in the colonies, they just leave. No notes, no flowers, nothing. kinda like a real cheap date. Steve, Paul, Paul, you forgot to mention that they might even shoot one of the residents in the process, and then be found entirely innocent of any crime. Like here in Washington a few years ago, where a house was hit with a 'dynamic entry', i.e., a no-knock, rush-in and play cops'n robbers. A woman was bending over an open oven pulling out a hot pan with oven mitts on. The cop said something to the effect (I faintly recall) that it looked like she was reaching for a weapon. Yeah, an assault baking tin. She later died from her wounds. Turns out, they had the wrong residence too. It's rather interesting that when one of theirs is killed in the line of work, they have all kinds of ceremonial hoopla; yet not a thing for the victims, not one bloody thing - not even a recompense to settle the burial affairs. If it _does_ happen, it is because the lawyers were getting paid. I have a very difficult time of keeping a stiff upper lip, when crap like that happens. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- But the best one was in New Hampshire I think, where a cop decided the safest place to keep his Glock was in the oven. So one day he forgot the gun was there and turned the oven on. Talk about cook-offs! The other one that was hysterical was the guy in Newark who could not get his car to start because the fuel line was frozen. So genius gets a can of gasoline and puts it on the stove to warm it up and melt the fuel line. Suffice to say that was the last mistake he ever made! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-police show weapons seized from yardies
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This has come out on the same day as a report that racial complaints against the police are at an all time high. If this release was put out to counteract this bit of bad publicity it seems to have worked as it has had far more coverage (at least on radio). Brian T -- I'm convinced the police can't crack the problems in Handsworth because they don't have enough black undercover officers. Steve. Steve, Brian, Without getting into much of a philosophical discussion, allow me this: If the number of things that people normally do were not declared malum prohibitum, then the number of things that cause crime would be of necessity be nonexistent. Ergo, the more 'things' one inveighs against, the more effort that must be expended to counter not only the inveighed against, but also the tactics which are employed: setting traps, making contacts, paying stoolies. doing wiretaps, doing stakeouts, prosecuting the suspects, dealing with delaying tactics, etc. If the government were made to quantify in time and money, the efforts that they expend in pursuing an essentially victimless pastime, and if the number of criminals and criminal substances were totalled as to real value in an otherwise non-criminal venue, I wonder just what the real costs (time, money, and lives) would factor out to be in the artificial (read: Malum Prohibitum) environment of the present? Not having enough members of the darker persuasion, is not a problem in itself, and merely one of perception. From my own experiences here in the US, one is considered to be a turncoat to one's own race when one does work for the establishment that tends to establish one's race as a 'problem'. The are many exceptions, but when the cards fall in the wrong places, those racially identical to the criminals tend to be targets of revenge. Ultimately, false crime produces false criminals, and invites the members of the law enforcement community to become major players, not only for the money but also for the ability to incriminate those whom are seen as adversaries, by using the laws as leverage to inflict pain, instead of mere justice. Corollary: your firearms laws. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws." --Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged" =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Legal-Murderer Used Former Police Firearm
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Picked this up in my local paper, it may have a bearing on the reasons why the police are now destroying surplus firearms. --snip-- It was revealed that the weapon was a Smith and Wesson which had once been used as a policeman's gun. Strathclyde police had sold it on to a registered gun dealer and records show it was later destroyed. However, it found its way into the underworld and was wrapped in a towel and used to shoot Wilson at close range. --snip rest-- Steve, DMB, Interesting here, that the firearm that was used in the crime is pointedly referred to as having been a privately held arm, and note too that the element of police/government involvement is minimized. The sixty four thousand dollar questions are: Is it really worth a rat's arse to know who owned the firearm priorly? What particular piece of forensic evidence can be gleaned from this? Would it have saved anyone's life to know? And, if not that particular pistol, then why not another from elsewhere? Maybe the UK government ought outlaw towels? Now there is an idea which time has come! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." --William Pitt to the House of Commons, 18 November 1783 =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I find it rather ironic that Strathclyde Police licensed the RFD they sold their own gun to, now ACPO are saying that RFDs are not to be trusted, apparently. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The Gun Control Network
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The most recent e-mail on Shooters' Rights which has just hit my screen (very good way of disseminating info. and motivating shooters, the Internet) refers to the 6 members of the Gun Control Network whose submission on banning weapons was accepted whereas any opinions the Shooting Community had were ignored. --snip-- Targetting these MPs (no pun intended) with overwhelming support for their opponents would help clarify other MPs' attitudes about gun control. The prospect of losing their nice, comfy sinecures should crystallise their thoughts nicely. Chris Paul Stock Exchange Rifle Club -- The six members are not MPs, although Gill's husband (I think or is it her brother) is. I think their members are stated on their website, but anyway it's Gill, that nutty professor, and four family members of people killed at Dunblane or Hungerford, although I think Tony Hill has packed it in now because the GCN did have seven members at one point. Obviously you're not going to have much luck flooding the MP for Dunblane with information. Steve. Steve, Chris, Steve: Flooding the Dunblane MP might not, but if several hundred protestors were to gather outside his residence a few times a week, between now and election time, and shout slogans protesting the unfair treatment of innocent men and women, then it would be one hell of a wake-up call! When the locals get to understand the ire of people who were targeted for the acts of one man, and get to know just how it feels to be made a scapegoat, then maybe they will wake up to the fact of just what the lies are that are about the land! I say give that filthy little bastard hell! And pardon my lingo, but that's just how I feel! -- We have at least two subscribers who are in that constituency, either of you been to see your MP about the ban, chaps? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Web Site of interest
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take a look at http://www.kleasen.org.uk Now, I see that a gun club eventually shopped this guy. Good for them. Yes, it was outrageous that the Police gave him a certificate. No excuses there at all. Total incompetence. However, some of the contributors here would consider that it was quite OK for him to have firearms. In particular, Peter Jackson seems to advocate freely available firearms, which would mean that Monsieur Kleasen would be entitled to possess anything he wants. I would be interested in the views of the panel on this charmer. He has, I believe, now been deported back to the country of his birth. I wonder if he is entitled to possess firearms back there? Anyone enlighten me on that one? So many people like to use the American comparison, it would be interesting to know how they would treat this socially inadequate perverted murderer. IG Steve, IG, Minus Steve's remarks, allow me the following. The website ref'd above has some interesting things to say. From what I can determine -- through the 'journalistic fog' that passes as press, it seems that Kleason is some kind of psychotic personality. Okay, you scored one, IG. But I'll tell you this: I have to wonder why it took so bloody long for the various clubs to oust him. Here in the US, in the several loose associations that refer to themselves as 'clubs', all it would have taken is one such threat, and the man would have been history to the group. We don't take threats lightly -- especially where firearms are concerned. And -- a very BIG 'and' at that -- how did that one manage to get any kind of license under your fool proof system? I mean, if as you say that _you_ can detect the bad apples, what was the excuse that time? Sloppy research? Do you guy's let just any moron into your nation? And then have the unmitigated temerity to complain about it?!! Now, in the matter Barton MP Shona McIsaac, I have to say that she is an alarmist, mentioning as she does "Dunblane and Hungerford" as reasons to act like some fluttering ninny when one loose marble is found rolling around. Seems to me that she's a likely a case for a close look. Mind if I ask why a crime camera hasn't been placed appropriately close to her residence? Let's look carefully at your proposition that an armed society would be a dangerous society. I recall that the US was just that at one time, and it was even safer then, than now with the multiple layers of cop, super-cop, ultra-cop, mega-cop (and god knows what other kind of hyphen cop). Imagine that! A country without any firearms laws, and no cops but the county sheriff and his entourage. The US was a pretty peaceful place, until the dullards back east decided it would be a good idea to imitate the Europeans and the Hessian ideal. Why is it, do you suppose, that bad ideas catch on faster than really good ideas? It wasn't until the early 1900's that firearms laws started to cause all manner of problems. Well, actually, as I think about it, it was in the mid to late 1800's with all manner of 'Black Laws' abounding to oppress the slaves and freed slaves. But that's another story, although it is most definitely corollary, since the only people who had trouble with those laws were the one's who were HIGHLY REGULATED under them. Sound familiar? Without the law, there was no problem; whereas with the laws there arose a problem. An armed society is most definitely a polite society. And, a community of few laws is one where there are the least number of law breakers. I wonder why that is? -- Pointing out nutcases who have gotten licenses just underlines what a fallacy the licensing system is, IMO. Doesn't support the argument of regulation one jot. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The Gun Control Network
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have at least two subscribers who are in that constituency, either of you been to see your MP about the ban, chaps? Steve. I can see this as not being a particularly good idea. We may have all the best argumants, but after a community has had something like this happen to it (and I know that sounds very TV "sound bite'ish") you can't expect people from it to judge things in an unbiased way. It's exactly the problem we had in the first instance in that you just can't argue against someone who has had their child murdered by a deramged gunman, it dosen't matter how good your argumants are they just aren't going to accept it and to be honest it perfectly understandable given the circumstances. Jonathan Laws -- I'm not suggesting that they do organise a protest, I just wondered whether their MP was responsive to the argument (which I seriously doubt). Steve. Steve, Jonathan, Let me say this just once, and I won't bother you with it ever again. Your course of action is yours to take in this affair. The frame of mind that you express above is just the one that the GCN is wanting you to take: you have been effectively cowed. They have succeeded in their quest to silence you -- forever. They want you afraid to face the angry parent. That is what their fondest wish is. That is their secret weapon: emotionalism. If you are to win, you need to be an Admiral Nelson in the face of the Armada of lies and half-truths. If you want to overcome this madness, you have to take on this trial of fire and face those parents head-on, in whatever confrontation that may happen. It won't be a pretty sight, but if you can show those people that their children were in effect murdered by the laws of your nation and by the attitudes of the people running the likes of the GCN, then you will have shown them what the real problem is: incompetence on the part of people who were supposed to administer a government program with integrity, and they muffed it supremely, blaming all the innocent firearms owners in the process, and by people who have illogical and whimsical goals. If you can show them that up until the first laws which governed the possession of firearms in your nation that firearms related crime was extremely low, and essentially non-existent, that it is the morass of regulations which have allowed such events to transpire, then you will have opened their eyes to the truth. But you have first to challenge them to know the truth. Hiding inside your house and pretending that it will all go away is not the answer. Confrontation, and exposure of the truth will upend this GCN apple cart. The sooner you get the facts straight, the better. Of course, before you go, it would pay to have all of your facts in order on a pamphlet, and know your arguments by heart. You can expect that the opposition WILL be as well prepared with a pack of lies. To the victor goes the spoils, and the victor does not back down at all. The ball is in your court. Don't let it gather too much moss. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] . I ask on the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police ranks? From the limited reporting of this I have seen one would have to say yes. I think that theft is one of the crimes that the met will accept you after having comitted an offence that could potentially debar you from holding an FAC for life. So theoretically you could be arrested by an armed Met cop who could never legally hold an FAC. Jonathan Laws. Steve, Jonathan, A critique of our times? When the of citizens in a nation are so scandalized by crime, that the remaining number of those qualified to serve in an office of public trust is reduced such that the 'criminal class' must be appealed to in order to sustain the requisite numbers of the 'enforcement class'. How interesting. -- Who wants to be a copper, all those nasty shooters criticising you etc.G Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-law-abiding?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] What constitutes law abiding? Someone never convicted or someone never caught? Steve, IG, Whatever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? Your comment above, IG, either demonstrates your mind set, or the manner in which UK cops think of their fellow citizens. In my little stint working as Security Police in the US Navy, at Whidbey Isl. Naval Air Station, I came across that same kind of mind set, several times, both with the Security Police and the local cops and Sheriff Deputies. It was a kind of 'me against them' thing that operated in those minds 24/7. Nobody was innocent, period. I was the outsider, and even more suspect than most, because I refused to play that game. But then, I also ran the Drug Detection unit . . . They had to pee for me. Not necessarily on command, you understand grin. Hell, even the drug detection dogs were my buddies, and their trainers played hell trying to make them mind. They would come to me before they went to their trainer! Dogs are a good judge of character. In my book, if you ain't under arrest, or being pursued, they you is as legal as legal can be. And no man has any authority to cast doubt upon you without reason. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . Whats a ho-down? Do we need banjo players? IG Steve, IG, Well, actually, it is spelled 'hoedown'. It is a party for square dancing, and other more earthy pursuits. And, yes, the banjo is definitely an instrument that is found at one, including an empty earthen ware jug (the moonshine kind), a scrubbing rack, a fiddle -- or violin, a guitar, one or another of percussion instruments, a really good sense of humor, and most definitely some corn squeez'ins (white lightening). Yeee Haw! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Stop or I'll chant!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The point I have tried to make, with a severe lack of success, is that some restrictions are necessary, unless you want the likes of Mr Kleasen and every other psycopathic criminal on the country wandering around tooled up to the eyeballs. Who would you rather make the decision on suitability? Are you in favour of a total lack of control? --snip-- Steve, IG, Butting in here (something I'm good at), allow me to state that at the other end of the spectrum, some of us have tried -- unsuccessfully -- to convince you of the fruitlessness of most controls. Control works, when it is applied in the manner it was intended to operate at: the citizen level. If the laws of carriage possession are such that the only persons deprived of a right are those who are under a legal disability, then it is only them who are subject to the law, and not everybody else. Therefore, if one is deprived by law from possession and/or use, then it is only they whom the police and the forces of government have the rightful authority to assess of a breach of the law. What has been hinted at, plainly stated, over-stated, and run into the ground, is that the laws as they currently stand affect only those citizens (you know, the famous law abiding ones?), who are willing to undergo the rigors of proving one as being suitable. The criminal will never obey the law. But you know that. So, what good is a law that oppresses the lawful citizens, makes them jump through hoops and endless waits, while the criminal merely thumbs his nose at the law, and takes advantage of the disarmed, lawful citizen? Where in heaven, or on earth, is the logic in that? You people already KNOW who the criminals are, so why the heck are you torturing the law abiding citizens with the mindless, and worthless nonsense that is your law? Every time you run a citizen through that wringer, you already know what their status is. They have not broken any law of consequence. So what is the real essence of what you do? How much clearer can this get? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-'National maturity'
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to earlier comments, I have indeed lived abroad, I travel very widely and have by now made more trips to the US than I can accurately count. Nor are these thoughts anything very new. Fact is, they're Americans and we ain't, and that's all there is to it. The respective attitudes are not remotely interchangeable. If there's any more travelling to be done, it's most likely our US cousins who need to be doing it, in order to check out the cultural environment this side of the water. The long-suffering 'IG' is right - at present, US considerations are largely irrelevant to the firearms issue over here, though if the 'Americanisation' of society being so enthusiastically pursued by New Labour continues indefinitely, this could conceivably change. Nick Steadman Steve, Nick, Culture is culture. It remains that no matter where you may find yourself, the safest modus operandi is to always presume that danger lurks. In my travels about the European continent, I was careful to note that there are places which are safe in one part of the day, and of great danger in the darker hours. It was usually in places where the police presence was greatest that criminal element was of the greatest concern. And, additionally, there is safety in numbers. I seldom ventured out after dark in any city, without a local companion, or a travelling companion. What happens, and happens frequently to those who are not 'locals' and who venture by themselves in the cities, after dark is notable. True, in most places of most countries, you are very safe, and the need of an arm with which to offer defence to an attack is statistically small. The same goes for just about anywhere in the USA. But, I hasten to add, that merely because one is safe in most places, it does not effectively extrapolate that carriage of an arm is a waste of time. I will avail myself to an equally valid and justifiable analog: the automotive seat belt. I might neglect -- on a frequent basis -- to strap myself in. But what of that freak accident? What if I had strapped my butt to the seat? Would I still be unhurt? Not unlike helmets for motorcycle drivers and riders. I decry the law mandating the wearing of something, in the same way that I would decry the law mandating the carriage of a firearm. But if you get tossed off the bike -- as I did in March of this year -- and land smack on your head, as I did, after being struck by an automobile that was accelerating past 25 mph, you have no one to blame for the attendant head injuries. I luckily survived rather unscathed, save for massive bruising in various places as a result of practicing the art of flying without wings. My stout stature must be the combination of British Isle genes and some unique Amerindian ones as well. I was told that I flew, and bounced, rather neatly. As usual, I had on my full-face helmet, and was wearing leather, as I always do, even in the oppressive heat of summer. One never knows, if you get my drift? Now, Nick? That yours and the other cultures of the Euro land mass are suffering a sort of cultural dilution, isn't to be blamed upon anyone. People imitate for various reasons. If the strength of the upbringing of some people's children isn't sufficient enough to counter bad -- or other influences, then who's to blame? If it is merely some kids suffering the affectations of a rather faddish and passing subculture, imagine how we feel when we see teenagers with those outlandish punk styles that originated 'over there' grin. Americans are not a uniquely violent sort. It just seems that way because of the mass media, and the movie industry. Need I remind you of the 'cowboy westerns'? I guarantee you that traffic assaults and tempers are just as bad in some places in Italy and France, as any as you might witness in the US. That they seem to be worse and more frequent, is -- I remind you -- purely a result of the massive and repetitive reporting that is done. That there are the dolts, soft headed, and lame brained who brandish firearms in the incidents of such fracas', is to be expected with the understanding that we are a freer nation in most instances. Yes, that kind of display is despicable, and it a rather rare event. I can virtually _guarantee_ you, that if your nation were as free -- in the regards to the possession of firearms as is mine, that your nation (never mind Italy or France) would experience the same thing, in perhaps the same ratio of per capita. You neglect to also consider that the US -- as no doubt the UK of late -- has a very much greater dispersion of other cultures, and the attitudes that are common to those cultures. There will inevitably be the conflicts and clashes that produce the results that you hear about. The only thing mi
CS: Misc-Columbine
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is an interesting series of articles on Columbine. http://www.usatoday.com/hphoto.htm --snip-- Kenneth Pantling Steve, Kenneth, I went looking, and came up with this gem: http://www.usatoday.com/news/digest/nd1.htm Check it out. Okay, class, listen up, I really hate repeating myself. I love the figure bandied about: Quote - "One in four youths has used a gun or knife or has been in a situation where someone was injured by a weapon in the past year, according to a large national study of adolescents." Unquote. First, and absolutely foremost, is that the rabidly anti everything -- but mostly anti firearms -- CDC was responsible for that load of crap. Please c-r-i-t-i-c-a-l-l-y evaluate that quote above, and understand that it is so loaded as to be worthless. It virtually gives the impression -- by the mentioning those dread 'guns' as the FIRST item in the list of very bad things -- that GUNZ are a big problem. This American culture has been so traumatized by the sensitivity awareness over this issue of firearms, that the mere mention of firearms in any but the most positive context is sure to raise eyebrows. Totally unstated, and left to your imagination is the following: Of the 25 percent, what indeed was the reason and context for using a firearm or a knife? Was it in a positive experience? Was it lawful? What indeed was the connection? Just because 25 percent of those polled answered in the affirmative doesn't mean a damned thing, unless the connection to what it was used for is also stated. Merely allowing a tagalong comment in what appears to be an adjunct statement, is the most deceptive way of coloring intent. What weapon was used in the past year? Nothing is stated in terms of a breakdown by what the 'weapons' were. It could well have been fists and feet for all we know. "One in four youths has used a gun or knife OR has been in a situation . . ." They either used a gun or a knife, OR -- NOT AND -- they were in some kind of situation. Well, the IF the purpose was violence, why the OR comment, and not an AND statement? What a load of crap. So, let's play their stinking game. Let's suppose the guns and the knives were part of the violence mix. What part of the 25 percent were actually the gun and/or knife crowd? Maybe 2 percent? Maybe .5 percent? Maybe something so damned statistically insignificant that it isn't worth actually mentioning for fear that the real problem will expose itself: ersatz truth. Lumping statistics is a favorite tactic of the anti crowds. Your homework: Go read the full article, and pick it apart. Bring the real meat back to class to morrow, leave what's left in the trash. I don't expect to see much -- if any -- meat. Class dismissed. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Illegal for Children to Play with Toy Guns
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The beginning of this story is bad enough - but read it to the end to find out just how ludicrous these anti-gunners can be. Mike P Steve, Mike, And, this was my input: Dear Editor, Re.: http://www.post-trib.com/news/story4/index.html Well, I'm flabbergasted! And that's putting it mildly. Of course, I'm from the state of Washington, and that might explain a something to some people. While 'surfing' the Internet a bit ago, I came across the story referenced above. After reading it, I sat back a moment and considered the impact of the decisions made by the elected officials of that town. Imagine, I thought to myself, that a town was about to tell the parents of children just how to raise them. No toys of a certain sort, no play of a certain type, no thinking in a certain way. Just do as we say, or else. It's the 'or else' part I don't like. I thought this was America, where you had freedom of choice, where you were free to choose, and if 'YOU' made the wrong choice, then the courts were made to be availed to, in order to set wrongs right. How dare they? How dare parks officials decide to set the limits of citizen acts merely because they _think_ they have the power to? Where do they get their power from? The citizens, of course. So, how can they tell the citizen what to do? From whence do they proscribe the limits of freedom? There are two distinct Constitutions which the citizens of Indiana may appeal: that of their state, and the US Constitution. The latter being the law of the land -- Art. VI, º2. At least one guarantees that all the citizens have certain rights that cannot be run roughshod over, merely because some highfalutin power besotted majority in city hall feels the need to pass a bit of 'feel good' legislation in order to give their supporters the idea that they did 'something' to address a certain 'problem'. If there is a problem, it is that certain people want to control the acts of everybody else -- regardless. That is the real problem. If there is a solution to be had, it is that government is the supposed to 'educate' the people as to what their rights are, and what the responsibilities are in that regard. Making laws isn't the solution. Informing the citizen of responsibilities is the real solution. But placing limits on everybody's liberties because of the acts of a few less responsible citizens is heinous, because it says in effect that no citizen is responsible enough to decide for himself what is right. If that indeed the case, then the citizens in city hall, and the parks commission are declaring themselves to be gods. So, who is really right here? E.J. Totty Everett, Washington -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Knives
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary a penknife is "A small folding knife, especially for carrying in the pocket." --snip-- And it would not be unreasonable for the man in the street to turn to dictionary for information to help him understand the meaning of things - would it? --snip-- Pete -- I don't make this crap up, I just report it. The Isle of Man actually has a statute differentiating lock knives and penknives. Steve. Steve, Pete, So, one wonders how long it will be before a knife must have a certain amount of some part of metal. I say that in the consideration that materials tech will surely produce a substance just as hard, and as tough as steel, yet have no metallic signature. Then what? I wonder just what it was the induced this particular set of statutes, such that a knife may not have a locking blade. Is not a blade a blade? Who the blazes cares whether it locks in place? What is the point in that? Hell, why not dictate that all blades must be pink? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- This coming from a guy who lives in a country that banned plastic guns and requires toy guns to have red plugs in the barrel. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Illegal for Children to Play with Toy Guns
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The beginning of this story is bad enough - but read it to the end to find out just how ludicrous these anti-gunners can be. Mike P Steve, Mike, And, this was my input: Dear Editor, Re.: http://www.post-trib.com/news/story4/index.html Well, I'm flabbergasted! --snip-- Well, how about that? They called to verify my data prior to consideration for publishing it. Now, maybe if some of you Brit folks were to send them a letter as well on the same subject, just think what impact that might have, coming as it would, from across the other side of the great pond. Just a thought here. Every little drop helps fill the bucket . . . -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.50s
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The problem with Section 1(4) is that it says available in significant numbers. Well no firearm is available in significant numbers except maybe .22s and 12 Gauge shotguns. What is a "significant number"? I suspect we will know shortly. Steve. Steve, So, you want a definition of "significant numbers"? Well, that's easy: Everything that wasn't banned the last time, and will be the next time. Only the next time there won't be any money to give out, or the powers that be will just give you a rain check that will be conveniently ignored. Of course then there will be a significant number of irate prior firearms owners. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Well if the judge uses logic, then I would say only firearms that have been available in single digits could be not "significant numbers" because there are so few legally possessed centrefire rifles in this country that any particular subset of them would be a very small number indeed. There are some 350,000 Section 1 firearms held on FACs, the overwhelming bulk of which are .22 rifles. Exclude them and you're down to around 150,000 already. If you say 0.1% of that is a "significant number" that's only 150 guns. If you exclude .22, .38/357, .44, .223, 7.62mm and 12 Gauge shotguns from the 350,000 total I reckon it would be a pretty small number of guns, nearly all of which would be calibres like .270, .243 and 7mm-08. The thing with .50s is that your average .50 Sharps is an antique, and antiques don't require licenses. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Molebdenum
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm no metallurgist, but how it was explained to me is something like this - moisture ( from the chemical reaction of burning powder ) plus molybdenum ( a sulphide ) plus stainless steel can set up an electro-chemical reaction path which causes "crevice erosion" in the stainless steel - this is very noticeable where angular machining has been done ( rifling ) - this was the basic explanation given to me by a surveyor colleague to explain the virtual total destruction of threading and of more than half its 1 3/4 inch thickness, on a six month old marine grade stainless steel bolt - for some reason the nut was not affected. I am now very wary of moly anywhere near stainless. Over to the more scientifically inclined :-) David M ( Sussex ) Steve, David, Rather interesting, that. If the bolt and the nut were of the same alloy composition, then there should not have been significant differences in the corrosion rates, simply because the corrosion cell would have been common to both components. A corrosion cell is set up on a metallic surface where there is sufficient moisture able to linger, and oxygen. The moisture will after a fashion begin to obtain sufficient components to make up an electrolyte. If both components were at the same potential electrically, then it is possible that the nut may have had more nickel than the bolt, or as the last article below infers, the nut was passivated. The is also the aspect of thermo-galvanic corrosion, as it might be applied to firearms, under that heading below. Galvanic corrosion is the most common type of corrosion where metals are concerned. Some reading here is in order. Check these out. http://www.corrosionsource.com/learningcenter/galvanic.htm http://www.diveweb.com/maritech/features/uw-su99.01.htm http://www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/masnotes/corrosion.html http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Aircraft/galvdefi.htm http://www.caloritech.com/catalog/page202.htm http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/html/galcorr.htm http://www.kelleytech.com/bulletins.html?article=2912 Thermo-galvanic corrosion: http://www.alu-info.dk/Html/alulib/modul/A00109.htm http://webmall.ucbiz.com/power/contents/dictionary/dictionary.htm -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-antiques
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The thing with .50s is that your average .50 Sharps is an antique, and antiques don't require licenses. Steve. Steve, In relation to that, is it legal to re-barrel one of those? Further, may you remanufacture a receiver or other part that is worn? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Erm, that's a good question. You can legally restore antiques but I'm not sure at what point they would cease to be an antique and require a license. I think it unlikely you could rebarrel it and replace the receiver and still call it an antique. It depends on how the court sees it. I suspect the police would consider replacement of any major component as reason for it not to be an antique. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Molebdenum
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not convinced moly coating does enhance barrel life, perhaps in certain situations but in my limited experience the only reason for barrel life being increased is because moly coating seems to reduce muzzle velocity, which must mean less pressure inside the barrel. Steve. Problem is, you have to burn more powder to recover that 'lost' muzzle velocity so greater throat erosion. VinceB -- Good point. Steve. Steve, Vince, Reduced muzzle velocity? I'm attempting to analyze the physics of the moment here. If, by lubricating the surfaces of two objects, you achieve a lesser of a velocity of a projectile -- than without the lubricant, and assuming the same charge and projectile weights, then it equates to one of the following: a) you have a greater by-pass of gas around the projectile, b) the friction has somehow actually increased, causing the projectile to really slow down in the barrel, and lessen the total propulsive force along the entire length of the barrel, c) the Molly compound somehow 'moderates' the temperature of the propellent burn, reducing it, and lowering the pressure as result. If as Vince says, that increasing the charge weight would cause an attendant erosion problem, that makes sense, since the initial movement of the projectile would be greater. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- It's a common misconception that moly-coating increases MV. With moly-coating you have less inertia so the pressure build up is less as it takes less effort to get the bullet moving. You end up with a lower peak pressure as a result and therefore you obviously end up with lower MV. I can only speak to .223 which is a high velocity round as that is the only calibre I've chronoed with and without moly coating but it did seem that the moly-coated load was slower. With less inertia you obviously have less throat erosion, but if you then increase the charge you may end up with more! I suspect it is difficult to say for sure, it depends on so many factors, calibre, barrel, bullet and so forth but I doubt moly-coating significantly increases barrel life, or maybe it does but not in the chamber if you want to keep your MV. But then I have read reports in some calibres there is no detectable difference. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Mercy for boy who cut bullies
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The present problem in the UK is that the establishment is getting away with exceeding their authority. For example, IG is happy to state that in his official capacity he does not recognise the RKBA and he gets away with it, except in this discussion group g. Regards, John Hurst. Steve, John, Allow me this: My perception from the past discussions is that IG understands that the current law is indeed in violation of the top law, but because he has sworn an oath to uphold 'the' law, that he is not at liberty to either ignore or condemn 'the' law. And, as he has 'the' law and its unique vagaries to contend with -- as a matter of course because of his oath, that he quite content to do just that, because for him to do otherwise would be to disobey his oath. We've been here before. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Police state marches on
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I do not know what all the fuss is about roadside DNA Tests. Only those who have something to hide have anything to fear. Let me tell you all that the police do not just stop innocent people in this country. Nor do they ever arrest people unless they are quite obviously criminals. You people that criticise the brave and dedicated officers of the law who keep this country safe should be ashamed. -- I assume you're being sarcastic. Steve. Steve, Richard, Yeah, Richard, just how much tongue can you plant into the side of one of your cheeks? chuckle -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Naval Gun Fun
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi! Some interesting things about big naval guns have come to my attention recently. For example: They didn't all elevate up to 45 degrees, thus denying them maximum range. They weren't all capable of firing flat, thus denying them the ability to sink ships at point-blank range. --snip-- Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Steve, Norm, Oh, Norm . . . That is what ballast is for. Chief Engineer: "So, do you really want 45 degrees, Captain? Is your coffee mug safely placed?" Chuckle En route to my last duty station, USS Enterprise, I was surprised to hear that it had run across Bishop Shoals, somewhere off the southern California coast. Seems that there was an A-7E in final approach, and the captain decided to maintain course -- despite the Navigators admonition that dead ahead of the ship was the shoals. Rather than have the A-7 waved-off and do another approach after course change, the old man opted to instead take a chance that the tide was sufficient to allow over-passage. The consideration was that the alternative would have been to launch the tanker A-6, give the A-7 sufficient latitude for more than one pass, upon course set. The bottom edges of the outboard portions of the keel just below the stabilizers (those blade-like structures that run fore to aft at midships to dampen the rocking of a ship) were torn through sufficiently as to cause the ship to momentarily lose stability and immediately slip to one side, in a rather severe list, on the side that had the worst damage. There was an immediate call to all available hands to report to the flight deck, on the opposite side. A friend who was aboard at the time told me that he was in a shower stall at the moment when he was flung towards one side of the enclosure and almost got knocked off of his feet. He said he was thinking that the ship had either hit a lump of hard water, or a sub. (heh, heh. fat chance) He said that it wasn't a moment later that the ship took on a rather steep list, such that he had a terrible time just getting out of the shower. In the consideration that there were two gashes, one on each side of the ship, and that the voids that were breached were meant to be flooded anyway, the voids in adjacent areas were stabilized with flooding to compensate, and the ship returned to Alameda. It subsequently spent the next month and a half in Hunter's Point NSY, at SF, across the bay. Shipyard life is so damned nice . . . not. The Captain lost his command, but was an Admiral a year later. Go figure. Ruin a ship, get advanced. At a future date a few years later, the ship was out doing sea trials for evaluations, and the Captain was advising the crew that everything loose was to be tied down for sure. The ship was push to max (flank) speed. The under water log (device used to measure speed) was only made to measure 40 knots. The indicator (according to the Captain) was bouncing on the peg after less than a minute. It was then that the ship was immediately (as fast as the helmsman can turn that darned brass monster of a wheel) put into a full left turn, and that was followed later by a full right turn. I had my doubts about surviving that day. Ever been side-hill with an off-road vehicle? Severely side-hill? I have a photo that shows the ship at that 40 plus knots, and there is a solid wave of water rushing up the bow three quarters (45 feet). Quite literally plowing water. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-deadly doctors
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:stats/gun control Number of physicians in the US = 700,000 Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year = 120,000 Accidental deaths per physician = 0.17 (U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services) Number of gun owners in the US = 80,000,000 Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) = 1,500 Accidental deaths per gun owner = 0.188 (U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms) Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Taken from the Benton County News Tribune on the seventeenth of November, 1999. Please pass this on - you may surprise a lot of your friends! So if gun owners kill doctors will lives be saved??? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Gun Powder
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There was an article in Gun Digest a few years ago about how the guerillas in Afghanistan were making primers out of nitrocellulose film that was a pretty interesting read. Steve. I remember reading a Guns Review article some years ago about people in an arms dealing town in Pakistan scraping off match heads to fill cartridge cases with. Always meant to try it but never got round to it, perhaps one day. Jonathan Laws. Steve, Jonathan, Well, whatever you do, be careful. I have a friend who is missing some fingers as a result of such an 'adventure' from his youth. It seems -- as he relates it -- that he was studiously pulverizing some match heads, in quantities greater than I had ever attempted myself in this endeavor, and the quantity decided to 'go off' at a most inopportune time. When I did these things, for some strange reason I had the presence of mind to do it in 'manageable' quantities, and not in the super amount that he did it. I would guess that it depends on the chemistry of the match. Most experiments I did as a stupid youth, were on the order of nothing more than the size of a firecracker, and the results were no more interesting than a really inferior Roman candle. In other words: a glorified smoke bomb. But, what can you expect from a regular book of paper matches? If I were to make a primer, I'd use the strike head of a safety match, where the greatest amount of phosphorus exits, combined with nitrocellulose. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention USA
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Effective political action also needs to be addressed.( Remember the local campaign that ousted David Mellor ? ) Above all, such a convention would build bridges between individuals and organisations with a view to more united, and effective, action in the future. Comments please. Stuart. -- We did try to have a convention in 1996 as I recall but it went down the pan - --snip-- That doesn't necessarily matter, to be frank, but getting people to lecture on the rights of self-defence and so on I suspect would go down like a lead balloon. Steve. Steve, Stuart, With regards to the last comment, maybe not a talk with that in mind. But, the subject could well be the main topic of a brochure. Reasonably broaching the topic by comparisons to the past of your land and its history, and by logical dissertation, even the guys and gals on the 'other side of the fence' might well be induced to at least sit on the fence, and the fence sitters might well climb down for a closer look. Heck, I see it like this: if all those firearms in the form of shotguns are seen as part of your historic past, and with them is the connection to its honorable and pleasurable pastimes, then the connection holds as well for all those other firearms. If one appeals to the intellect through logic and reason, and reveals that not just one essential part has been trashed in the name of a political theme, then it is a simple matter to make the mental connection that if you can divide the shooting community, you can as well conquer it -- as is the case presently. The case MUST be made that there are only so many positions upon which to fall back upon. If shotgunners see themselves as the only honorable section of the shooter community, they will soon find themselves backed into a corner so confining as to be the last stand -- period. If the last position upon which to fall back is shotgunnery, then it will be attacked and attacked until there are so few of you as to make your pastime a history in the very real sense. If this 'All for me, and to hell with thee' attitude persists, then it could well be the defining mental genre that virtually assures the demise of all shooting -- and a whole slew of other things -- in your nation. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- What we need is a convention where we come up with a single message of "Go out and do this!" Which is what the NRA does in the US, but there is still such a large gulf between field shooters and target shooters I think it will be difficult. Getting everyone who holds a SGC to write to their MP to call for the handgun ban to be repealed is what needs to happen, but I'll be amazed if it ever does. Plus you still (sadly) have people who cling to this sad belief that the Government really isn't after our guns, and if we do nothing everything will be okay, as aptly demonstrated by IG and previously Paul McDermott. However, I'm all for trying. Beats sitting here muttering among ourselves. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-Gun Powder - Rook Rifles
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This from my memory: Rook rifle cartridges were reloaded for economy. --snip-- The primer went in last so you didn't have accidents. --snip-- This is cartridge reloading - for Rook Rifles - as it used to be before and after the Great War. Anyone got any memories to match or complement these? Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Steve, Norm, Norm, I take it by your description above, that the particular cases you employed had their own anvil? Recently, I saw a picture (can't remember where) of a case that had its own projection in the center of the primer well. The reason I ask is that in your discussion you don't mention placing one into the primer or the well. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Primers
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] NO WAY WOULD I ANNEAL USED PRIMERS, YOUR APPLICATION THE USE THEREOF IS OK, BUT REMEMBER PRIMERS ARE SUBJECT TO CONSIDERABLY MORE PRESSURE. IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN SOFT BRASS FLOW UNDER PRESSURE, YOU WON'T DO IT TWICE. PRIMER CUPS NEED TO HAVE A CERTAIN HARDNESS, JUST AS THE CASE HEAD DOES. DON'T EVEN THINK OF IT. Walter. Steve, Walter, Walter, I appreciate your concern -- especially as it is directed at the safety end of the matter. Allow me to assuage some of your fears in the regard as you express them. First the lead-in: In most modern semiautomatic firearms (notice I didn't say all), the firing pin indents the primer for just long enough to set in motion the event, and retracts to a recessed position. In all the bolt action rifles that I have, the pin stays put in the fired position until the bolt is retracted. That being the case, in most rimless cartridges, once the primer has set-off the propellant, the casing actually reacts slightly along with the primer, with the primer reacting first. The primer will, in some cases slightly slip out of the well, but as the case presses up against the bolt, the primer is pressed flush with the case. This is normal, because of the mechanical interference fit the primer is designed for. Indenting the periphery of the case around the primer well in some military ammunition is just a safeguard to prevent the possible expulsion of a primer as the case is ejected. In the more severe cases of a hot load, the primer will exhibit a 'flattened' appearance, along with correspondent damage to the case head, in bolt action rifles. I have not witnessed a case overload in semiautomatic rifle -- yet, and hope never to, since from what I've read tells me that it is a much more 'interesting' event. That said, it is important to understand that point pressure of a firing pin has more pressure exerted per unit area than the pressure of the propellant, because if the propellant did exert a greater pressure, then the primer indent would be very much less evident upon observation. Even in cases where the primer perimeter was flattened by over pressure, as well as with the head of the casing, the primers that I have seen still had a significant indent -- even with a floating firing pin. I suppose it might be considered academic to discuss what the energy levels might be to distort a metal structure in one direction, and then what the necessary energy levels would be to distort it back in the opposite direction. And there is that matter of fatigue to contend with . . . It would make for an interesting experiment to take a fired primer -- still retained in the casing -- and install the case into a modified camber made for this experiment, and then gradually exert a hydraulic pressure to observe when the primer begins to revert in the opposite direction in the area of the pin indent, and continue until the indent was almost nil. One could use drift pin flattened appropriately, attached to a spring tester, as a cheap test, although it would not have the same accuracy as the hydraulic test, it would get one a ballpark figure as to what pressures are involved. Now, I would not consider reusing primer cups on an everyday basis since, as Steve was kind enough to note previously, that their relative abundance at shooter's stores makes the proposition of reusing them less than economic. It is, however, of interest to know that it can be done effectively -- and safely -- if it has to be. Analog: We all know about rubbing two stick together to make fire. But do we do it at all today? If push comes to shove, it pays not to toss out all this knowledge merely because it is deemed iffy at best. Certainly don't tell that to the gun makers in Afghanistan. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whilst we are on this subject may I say that I believe that the GCN have the right to be anti-gun, but we have the equal right to be pro-gun AND TO SAY WHAT WE BELIVEVE AND WANT TO THEIR FACES! --snip-- Alex -- I suggested the motorcycle museum, not the NEC! The GCN is not Government sponsored. They do seem to have reasonably competent PR though. Steve. Steve, Alex, Well, do be sure to have people who can represent your cause who won't wilt under fire. I've seen enough of that from men and women here who just are not prepared to face the inevitable trained and hostile proponent of hate. To be able to calmly, cooly, and efficiently tackle every argument with great aplomb is a characteristic that is sorely lacking in all but a few speakers on our side of the argument, because most speakers on the local scene are not practiced enough. The antis almost always employ the emotion card, and they do it very effectively, especially when the debaters are a woman on the antis side, and a man on the pro side. Invariably, they try to make the man appear to look like a some kind of pervert, who could care less about the welfare of the children who are sometimes the targets. In cases like these, where a good woman speaker cannot be availed to, it helps beyond words for a progun speaker to have his own children with him, and maybe a few of their friends whom are shooters as well. You can't believe the effect that having a young person speak lucidly for the cause can have. There are so many times where their welfare is discussed, but their input is not addressed. The antis dare not attack the young person, for fear that it will detract from their position, especially when the young person can out-talk them on the issue. It helps immeasurably for those young people to be well versed to begin with, especially with the facts, and how those facts are misused, and twisted to mean what they are not. When the debaters are women only, then the debate can proceed from the standpoint of real facts. The antis don't talk facts unless it appears to help their side. It helps as well to have a woman who is comely, and whose elocution is a cut above the average. Having the whole family can even do the wonders that the antis will only stutter along trying to effuse their thoughts in a less effective way. The great object here is get this to become a family sport -- as it used to be, and the more family members that get involved the better. This is why you absolutely must endeavor to fill your ranks with women who can speak the issues, clearly, calmly, and be able to take on the hype by exposing it for the crass lie it is. And the more woman the better. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- My suggestion is Prince William, I cannot believe the amount of criticism he has gotten from these anti-hunting nutters. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-more Jack Levin
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Levin says, "If we really wanted to stop this violence, we'd have to make armed camps out of our offices." --snip-- Chris Ferris Christopher C. Ferris Nashua NH USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, Chris, "If we REALLY wanted to stop this violence . . ." That pretty much says it all. Too bad that the last word in most cases is always the last thing tried. Of course, Chris, you also realize that the control freaks would never allow such a thing, certainly not in that teaming socialist enclave south of your border, as that would invalidate every one of their contentions since the signing of the Constitution. But that's another matter. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-weak rifle loads
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have always used some form of "wadding" (usually polyester dressmaking stuff) on top of light loads in large cartridges. My use of wadding goes back a long way and was centered around preventing the detonation of small charges of very fast burning powders. After reading an article last year that suggested the dangers of detonation were remote to say the least I decided to experiment. --snip-- John (on borrowed email address - please believe me!) Steve, John, That's an interesting thought you have there about detonation. I have always considered that the charge in a cartridge acted pretty much as that in the confined cylinder of an internal combustion engine, and that if the relative physics are the same, then their characteristics should also be the same. In the petrol engine (gasoline), if the spark is too hot, or it the conditions are just so, the whole air/fuel charge will detonate rather that burn from the spark downward, i.e., propagate as a flame front. So, in that regard, if wonder if having the loose propellent ignites somewhere in the middle, or more to the bullet, that it would have the same effect. I hasten to point out, however, that in some ammo made for the SKS, Chinese of origin as I recall, the propellent was in the form of what resembled a twisted double 'pipe cleaner'. Presumably, the end nearest the flash hole started the ball rolling -- literally. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-weak rifle loads
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have always used some form of "wadding" (usually polyester dressmaking stuff) on top of light loads in large cartridges. My use of wadding goes back a long way and was centered around preventing the detonation of small charges of very fast burning powders. After reading an article last year that suggested the dangers of detonation were remote to say the least I decided to experiment. --snip-- John (on borrowed email address - please believe me!) Steve, John, That's an interesting thought you have there about detonation. I have always considered that the charge in a cartridge acted pretty much as that in the confined cylinder of an internal combustion engine, and that if the relative physics are the same, then their characteristics should also be the same. In the petrol engine (gasoline), if the spark is too hot, or it the conditions are just so, the whole air/fuel charge will detonate rather that burn from the spark downward, i.e., propagate as a flame front. So, in that regard, if wonder if having the loose propellent ignites somewhere in the middle, or more to the bullet, that it would have the same effect. I hasten to point out, however, that in some ammo made for the SKS, Chinese of origin as I recall, the propellent was in the form of what resembled a twisted double 'pipe cleaner'. Presumably, the end nearest the flash hole started the ball rolling -- literally. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Charles Clark HAC report comments
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just recieved the following reply from Charles Clark MP regarding the HAC report. Anyone with any doubts that ACPO are behind proposals for restrictions need only read on. --snip-- Steve, Neil, Somebody, or some group, needs to sit down and rebut that load hog wash, point-by-point. Like for instance: [...] The Governments over-riding concern is to ensure pubic safety and we believe that strong controls on firearms are absolutely essential to achieve this. Our firearms controls are already among the strongest in the world, and these new proposals will increase their effectiveness. [...] Okay, the main thought is safety. So, where is all that time and money being spent on the awareness and safety training? How is depriving law abiding people, who by the way, have a safety record far and above the government's in this regard, going to improve safety? And why, above all else, is such an emphasis being placed on one singular item, which happens to have a better safety record than the ownership of other things that have a much greater impact on 'public safety'? If the community of law abiding citizens has proven to everyone their qualifications time and again, and it has been shown that it isn't them whom are the problem, but the miscreants who disregard the laws, then how in the name of the Queen, is depriving those law abiding citizens going to have an impact on the criminals? You cannot 'increase' the effectiveness of something which has been shown not to be effective: laws that prohibit only invite their own demise. [...] The Government recognizes that this is an emotive subject and sought to strike a balance and to target our controls fairly and proportionately. [...] By totally banning an object which you can't control? By treating the law abiding as criminals whenever they seek to comply with the laws? By application of the laws in such an unequal way as to make discovery of just what is and isn't acceptable, a veritable maze that varies from location to location? [...] It is right in principle that anyone who wants to own a shotgun should be able to do so provided that they can demonstrate that they have a good reason. It is not right that shotguns and other firearms should be treated differently, as at present, and the Government therefore proposes to rationalizes the situation, while rot restricting the present range of lawful shooting activities. [...] Yet another attempt at equivocation. One wonders just what deceptive intent was ever engendered by the phrase "good reason". The English Bill of Rights ought be good enough reason for any person who isn't a criminal, or decidedly insane. [...] The Government believes that the ages at which young people should be permitted to handle firearms under varying degrees of adult supervision should be reformed and simplified. However, we do not believe that a lower age limit for young people being taught to handle firearms responsibly under adult supervision would be appropriate or would benefit pubic safety. [...] Hearken! A ray of hope? Did a Cybershooter sneak that one in there somehow? [...] The Government or course is also aware that illegally held firearms and their use in crime is a significant threat to public safety The Government is currently examining a range of measures to support the police in dealing with this problem. [...] Hint: All men are armed with probes of conception. Some men misuse their probes by attacking others with them. Do we outlaw all men's probes because of the few who misuse them, or do we properly punish those whom misuse them? If the concept worked wonderfully before, in the British Isles, then why not now? [...] In seeking to amend our control on firearms, the Government will consult widely with all Interested parties- The Government is grateful for the view of your constituent and will wish to take these into account in deciding how to carry these proposals forward. [...] By all means, please do! However, it should be understood that a (6) person group headed by a person whose initials are 'GMA', should not have the power to trump the total power of all of the shooters whose lives were unfairly and cruelly affected by totally unnecessary and extremely misdirected disaffection, brought about by a self seeking political minority. [...] Te address the second of Mr. Robert's points, I can confirm that we have received representations from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) about long barrelled revolver guns and powerful long-range sniping rifles ACPO have expressed grave concerns about these weapons which we fully understand. We have sought the ad
CS: Pol-UN Antis bleat about civilian arms sales
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rights groups slam big powers over UN arms meeting By Irwin Arieff Steve, For those who are interested, this will put a face on your enemy: http://www.ryerson.ca/itm/wcukier.html -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
