[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
OK Guys! Having caused such a stir with the 63 tweak, a good friend on another Forum (Thanks D) suggested another, and after two nights with it, I subjectively sense a lower noise floor. Although this new tweak is not nearly as beneficial as the fixed S/PDIF level and 63 Tweak (which took the SB3 from downright unlistenable to enjoyable in my system - though not yet equal to my DVD Transport/DIP) this one certainly can't hurt, and is very logical. The display LCD adds additional load to the Power Supply and when the circuit to drive it is active, as well as the LCD itself, there is more electrical noise and activity within the SB3 when playing music than necessary. So - this is the tweak: Set the Display option in Player settings for Idle to Zero, so that when music is playing, the LCD display is automatically turned COMPLETELY off, and only comes back on temporarily when the Remote is used. Let me know what you find... Robert. -- Robbymagman Robbymagman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6926 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
CFP Wrote: You're right. Perhaps one day science can tell us how computers work. Well that's kind of the whole issue in a nutshell. Computers are deterministic systems; for a given set of inputs a set of outputs can be accurately predicted, measured and confirmed as factual/correct. An audio system of any kind unfortunately displays a different kind of behaviour... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Phil Leigh Wrote: Computers are deterministic systems; for a given set of inputs a set of outputs can be accurately predicted... I'm sitting here in front of a Microsoft-based computer, and I just can't follow the logic of your statement :-) -- cliveb Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Then I don't believe the effect is real! We're not talking about an objective measurement with an indisputable value. I wouldn't have any argument if you told me the tweak lowered jitter, for example. How can I argue with that? With a subjective measurement alone, though, it is very surprising in a statistical sense to have universal agreement that a difference is positive. For example, with the NOS vs. OS debate, there are plenty of people on either side who claim their way sounds better. As I said before, so far, I've only heard that this tweak improves sound or makes no difference whatsoever, but none have said it makes the sound worse. Isn't that fishy? FWIW, I do believe that opinions can be universal. But in the case of this tweak, I would not pass judgement on it simply based on the absence of a negative review. From what I can gather regarding what this tweak does, the effect should be measureable (lower noise floor is an easy trait to measure)...so hopefully someone with good testing equipment will take a measurement and see... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Would you believe I actually find the attenuation on 0 preferable to 63... Oh yes. Yes, I do find things sound more real with the 63 att especially with regards to voices which is rather good. However, things seem generally quiter and more distant (even when turned up), but more Real:-D I've switched back to 0 att as I find the mucic has a little more forwardness to it (foot taps on auto) things seem clearer and voices are pushed right out front which I love, bass seems heaver and deeper and more promanant, and things seem more separate to hear.. However back on 0 I don't listen to all of certian tracks as I find the voices too harsh in particular parts - when on 63 easily listen all the way through. What I want to know is how do I get the realness when on 63 and keep my forwardness/footappingness? Please, any one know ?? :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Deaf Cat Wrote: What I want to know is how do I get the realness when on 63 and keep my forwardness/footappingness? Please, any one know ?? :) Set it to 31.5? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Deaf Cat Wrote: Would you believe I actually find the attenuation on 0 preferable to 63... Oh yes. So now ezkcdude is a believer in this tweak... ;-) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Skunk Wrote: Set it to 31.5? That is absolutely hilarious! :D But who knows, it might actually work! I must say that I have been following this thread and am quite amazed that my simple mute suggestion (and I have to side with those that have found a noticable improvement) has generated such a stir. Robert. -- Robbymagman Robbymagman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6926 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: So now ezkcdude is a believer in this tweak... ;-) Well, let's say it's a step in the right direction. At the very least, it's nice to see someone actually characterizing what they hear, and not just saying it's better. -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I would set it at 63 and try a good quality EQ device or a software. Hiroyuki On Aug 20, 2006, at 10:10 AM, Deaf Cat wrote: Would you believe I actually find the attenuation on 0 preferable to 63... Oh yes. Yes, I do find things sound more real with the 63 att especially with regards to voices which is rather good. However, things seem generally quiter and more distant (even when turned up), but more Real:-D I've switched back to 0 att as I find the mucic has a little more forwardness to it (foot taps on auto) things seem clearer and voices are pushed right out front which I love, bass seems heaver and deeper and more promanant, and things seem more separate to hear.. However back on 0 I don't listen to all of certian tracks as I find the voices too harsh in particular parts - when on 63 easily listen all the way through. What I want to know is how do I get the realness when on 63 and keep my forwardness/footappingness? Please, any one know ?? :) -- Deaf Cat -- -- Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php? userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
CFP Wrote: You're right. Perhaps one day science can tell us how computers work. Science can explain how a computer works because it's relatively easy to figure out. The problem comes when some scientists become arrogant, probably as a result of fear or insecurity, and claim that something is impossible because they themselves cannot explain it. These scientists are more interested in holding onto their own views rather than learning about subtle and difficult-to-measure phenomena such as acoustics and the way audio data is affected by its travel from source to speaker. So we have claims such as, cables/speakers can never 'break in', cables cannot sound different when oriented in one direction rather than the other, a good MP3 cannot be distinguished from a CD because the frequencies removed from the CD to make the MP3 are not audible, and many more that slip my mind right now. I'm not saying any of these statements aren't true, rather that the notion that they *cannot* be true simply because current science (or a given scientist) cannot explain them is ridiculous. Furthermore, scientists who are not audiophiles and refuse to expand their views to include disciplines they are not familiar with, often do not recognize subtle aspects of sound that almost every audiophile can hear easily. They are scientists-in-name-only, because they're afraid to admit that the current state of science can't measure or explain something. -- JohnnyLightOn JohnnyLightOn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=28 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: Actually, Kurt was quoting me in the referenced article, using quotation marks instead of the QUOTE tags. Certainly, this change can do no harm and costs nothing. However, claiming something makes a big difference in sound, and saying it does no harm are two different things. What I was satirizing was the audiophile bandwagon effect. That is, someone draws a conclusion based on an uncontrolled experiment. Then others, not wishing to be called tin-eared by saying they hear no difference, also chime in with their agreement, again based on uncontrolled experiments. If you go back to the beginning of the thread, the original claim of an improvement was based on changing two things at once - setting both the digital and analog attenuations. One change affects the digital output data directly, and the other does not. The claims of improvement will cause an expectation bias in the experiment, so to get an unbiased picture requires a test method that removes expectation bias. I have no issue with people going with what works for them, based on uncontrolled subjective experiments. I do this myself with my own system all the time. But there is a difference between saying X works for me and saying X is true. The difference is that people will claim these results to be some kind of indisputable fact when no controlled experiments have ever established that. The idea is that once an assertion has been repeated often enough, it is considered to be true, regardless of the facts of the matter. This phenomenon is known rather harshly as the big lie theory. Since the above is a general discussion there really is no need to spam every single thread about a possible improvement with this kind of stuff. And, no, I don't think many here claim any kind of indesputable facts. I reassess my system and its various chosen solutions all the time. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: This isn't true. There are plenty of tweaks that I've tried that have made things sound worse in my system. Well, I'm still waiting for the first person who says this 63 tweak (thank god it's not 69) sounds worse. -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Well, I'm still waiting for the first person who says this 63 tweak (thank god it's not 69) sounds worse. What if it doesn't? -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: What if it doesn't? Then I don't believe the effect is real! We're not talking about an objective measurement with an indisputable value. I wouldn't have any argument if you told me the tweak lowered jitter, for example. How can I argue with that? With a subjective measurement alone, though, it is very surprising in a statistical sense to have universal agreement that a difference is positive. For example, with the NOS vs. OS debate, there are plenty of people on either side who claim their way sounds better. As I said before, so far, I've only heard that this tweak improves sound or makes no difference whatsoever, but none have said it makes the sound worse. Isn't that fishy? -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Then I don't believe the effect is real! We're not talking about an objective measurement with an indisputable value. I wouldn't have any argument if you told me the tweak lowered jitter, for example. How can I argue with that? With a subjective measurement alone, though, it is very surprising in a statistical sense to have universal agreement that a difference is positive. For example, with the NOS vs. OS debate, there are plenty of people on either side who claim their way sounds better. As I said before, so far, I've only heard that this tweak improves sound or makes no difference whatsoever, but none have said it makes the sound worse. Isn't that fishy? Less jitter will always sound better if you have a good enough system to hear the difference. If you don't, then you won't hear any difference. You can't really prove anything by guessing, so you might as well stop trying. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
P Floding Wrote: Less jitter will always sound better if you have a good enough system to hear the difference. Really? I didn't know this was a proven fact. My bad. -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Really? I didn't know this was a proven fact. My bad. Actually, audio reproduction is not an exact science. There is no ultimate sound system on this planet that sounds perfect to all ears. Perhaps I overstated the case, but the fact remains that it is hard to believe that more jitter will sound better. Especially since we know that one of the reasons digital sounded so awful in its ugly childhood was that the engineers had overlooked the effects of jitter. I have played a bit more with 0.0 vs. 63.0 and the effect is even more dramatic than I thought. Especially CDs that were crowded and noisy (in the instrumental sense), such as Primal Screams Vanishing Point, open up a whole soundscape when the analogue output is muted. Anyones milage may vary depending on DAC used, which i the unfortunate result of the way SPDIF works. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
P Floding wrote: ezkcdude Wrote: Really? I didn't know this was a proven fact. My bad. Perhaps I overstated the case, but the fact remains that it is hard to believe that more jitter will sound better. Just a little, perhaps. There are thresholds of inaudibility for any of a number of criteria. The question is neither 'is less jitter better?' nor 'Systems have to be X good to see the obvious difference, is your that good?'. The question is engineering. What level is bad? or perhaps what level is bad enough to be important and audible and in need of correction, in an otherwise well matched system of price about X? If you are playing on a boombox, a lot of jitter can be hidden (along with THD, and other evils) without being important. Played on a $5K system, what is important changes. And it changes a little more on a $10K system and probably on a $50K system. (I don't have much experience on the latter). It is very easy to believe that numerically different amounts of jitter are irrelevant in listening to music. It is not easy to know what levels are relevant in the real world. Its about the music. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Then I don't believe the effect is real! We're not talking about an objective measurement with an indisputable value. I wouldn't have any argument if you told me the tweak lowered jitter, for example. How can I argue with that? With a subjective measurement alone, though, it is very surprising in a statistical sense to have universal agreement that a difference is positive. For example, with the NOS vs. OS debate, there are plenty of people on either side who claim their way sounds better. As I said before, so far, I've only heard that this tweak improves sound or makes no difference whatsoever, but none have said it makes the sound worse. Isn't that fishy? I'm not sure that the fact that no one has thought this sounded bad is fishy. One can imagine lots of possible effects which would sound good to almost everyone - like making the volume slightly higher, for example. On the other hand there's pretty much zero evidence that this is a real effect, as (IMHO) the sort of anecdotal evidence we've seen here so far is totally useless, and there has been no plausible explanation advanced for why muting the volume would change anything. Add to that the fact that the believers seem to be unwilling or unable to perform a proper test, and we're left with zero. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
opaqueice Wrote: One can imagine lots of possible effects which would sound good to almost everyone - like making the volume slightly higher, for example. Yes, but in that case most people would also hear the change. We're talking about a tweak in which half of us don't hear anything, and half think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Let's get to the root of the problem. I believe it's psychology, but for a different reason. I think that people say they hear a change, because it says how great their system is. And if you don't hear a difference, it's because your setup is not as good as theirs. Moreover, the smaller the tweak, the better their system is. Heck, that argument was used just a few posts ago. In my opinion, it's more about bragging rights than about sound. -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
pfarrell Wrote: P Floding wrote: ezkcdude Wrote: Really? I didn't know this was a proven fact. My bad. Perhaps I overstated the case, but the fact remains that it is hard to believe that more jitter will sound better. Just a little, perhaps. There are thresholds of inaudibility for any of a number of criteria. The question is neither 'is less jitter better?' nor 'Systems have to be X good to see the obvious difference, is your that good?'. The question is engineering. What level is bad? or perhaps what level is bad enough to be important and audible and in need of correction, in an otherwise well matched system of price about X? If you are playing on a boombox, a lot of jitter can be hidden (along with THD, and other evils) without being important. Played on a $5K system, what is important changes. And it changes a little more on a $10K system and probably on a $50K system. (I don't have much experience on the latter). It is very easy to believe that numerically different amounts of jitter are irrelevant in listening to music. It is not easy to know what levels are relevant in the real world. Its about the music. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html Good post. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
P Floding Wrote: Actually, audio reproduction is not an exact science. There is no ultimate sound system on this planet that sounds perfect to all ears. Perhaps I overstated the case, but the fact remains that it is hard to believe that more jitter will sound better. Especially since we know that one of the reasons digital sounded so awful in its ugly childhood was that the engineers had overlooked the effects of jitter. I thought it was because they were still trying to compensate for certain deficiencies of analog recording when it was unneeded for digital. P Floding Wrote: We here have been over this before, and unless you simply search the archives, I suggest we start a new thread if you'd like to discuss it. (Short answer: FLAC needs more processing in the SB, so no-one can claim the situations are fully equivalent.) So how is this different than any other piece of computer hardware? Minus of course, the dedicated FLAC Machine with gate logic solely optimized for FLAC algorithm decoding :P -- CFP CFP's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude wrote: opaqueice Wrote: One can imagine lots of possible effects which would sound good to almost everyone - like making the volume slightly higher, for example. Yes, but in that case most people would also hear the change. We're talking about a tweak in which half of us don't hear anything, and half think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Let's get to the root of the problem. I believe it's psychology, but for a different reason. I think that people say they hear a change, because it says how great their system is. And if you don't hear a difference, it's because your setup is not as good as theirs. Moreover, the smaller the tweak, the better their system is. Heck, that argument was used just a few posts ago. In my opinion, it's more about bragging rights than about sound. Here's an analogy: I've noticed that putting sugar in my coffee makes it taste sweeter. Does anyone else find that? I suggest that most people will also find this; some may not be able to taste the difference, but I'll bet that no-one will say that adding sugar made the coffee less sweet. Using your logic, that fact that there were no negative reports makes you suspicious! R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
That's a terrible analogy. Sure, people will tell you it's sweeter. Will they universally tell you it's better and the other ones it's no different? So, what, everybody either loves sweet coffee or doesn't know the difference? You should think carefully before employing analogies. What exactly about the 63 tweak sounds different to you? Besides the fact that it is better? -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Yes, but in that case most people would also hear the change. We're talking about a tweak in which half of us don't hear anything, and half think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Not necessarily. Small differences in volume are quite difficult to judge by ear, but can nonetheless make the music sound better. Let's get to the root of the problem. I believe it's psychology, but for a different reason. I think that people say they hear a change, because it says how great their system is. And if you don't hear a difference, it's because your setup is not as good as theirs. Moreover, the smaller the tweak, the better their system is. Heck, that argument was used just a few posts ago. In my opinion, it's more about bragging rights than about sound. I think you're being overly harsh here. While some might be motivated this way, I think most others are quite sincere, and simply hear something because they are expecting to. Since (at least in this case) they are strongly biased towards hearing something good, that's what happens. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude wrote: That's a terrible analogy. Sure, people will tell you it's sweeter. Will they universally tell you it's better and the other ones it's no different? So, what, everybody either loves sweet coffee or doesn't know the difference? You should think carefully before employing analogies. What exactly about the 63 tweak sounds different to you? Besides the fact that it is better? I haven't A/B'd the 63 tweak. I didn't hear any immediate difference when I applied it. My point was rather aimed at your logic that *some* people must report the tweak as making it sound worse for it to be valid. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
CFP Wrote: I thought it was because they were still trying to compensate for certain deficiencies of analog recording when it was unneeded for digital. So how is this different than any other piece of computer hardware? Minus of course, the dedicated FLAC Machine with gate logic solely optimized for FLAC algorithm decoding :P edit: Going through the hardware specs I see the SB3 has a 250mhz processor. I'm pretty sure that's enough to decode FLAC - one of the fastest decoding formats - without straining too much under the labor. If you are going to be a sceptic, then at the very least learn to read carefully and apply logic. no-one can claim the situations are fully equivalent is all I said. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
P Floding Wrote: If you are going to be a sceptic, then at the very least learn to read carefully and apply logic. no-one can claim the situations are fully equivalent is all I said. Nice backpedal. Of course situations cannot be fully equivalent - but that's a meaningless statement it is tantamount to saying, they are not the same because they are different. Wow, such a philosophical breakthough! Do I smell a Nobel Prize? Well duh, of course the situations are not full equivalent. On the most shallow level, one is named FLAC and the other WAV so right off you've violated mathematical laws of equivalence! I raised skepticism on the contention WAV sounds better than FLAC for the SB3. Your short answer: FLAC needs more processing in the SB, so no-one can claim the situations are fully equivalent Well this is processing difference is by no means unique to the SB3, FLAC is after all a compressed format. On any scientific site if someone contended WAV sounded better than FLAC on their computer due to the processing differences he/she'd be laughed out of the house. I don't know if you're aware but FLAC is one of the only lossless formats to have a myriad of test suites designed to PROVE output equivalence to the original signal. Come on now, if you are going to be a sceptic, then at the very least learn to read carefully and apply logic. -- CFP CFP's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
CFP Wrote: Nice backpedal. Of course situations cannot be fully equivalent - but that's a meaningless statement it is tantamount to saying, they are not the same because they are different. Wow, such a philosophical breakthough! Do I smell a Nobel Prize? Well duh, of course the situations are not full equivalent. On the most shallow level, one is named FLAC and the other WAV so right off you've violated mathematical laws of equivalence! I raised skepticism on the contention WAV sounds better than FLAC for the SB3. Your short answer: Well this processing difference is by no means unique to the SB3, FLAC is after all a compressed format. On any scientific site if someone contended WAV sounded better than FLAC on their computer due to the processing differences he/she'd be laughed out of the house. I don't know if you're aware but FLAC is one of the only lossless formats to have a myriad of test suites designed to PROVE output equivalence to the original signal. Come on now, if you are going to be a sceptic, then at the very least learn to read carefully and apply logic. I can't recall ever having said that it would be unique. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
CFP Wrote: On any scientific site if someone contended WAV sounded better than FLAC on their computer due to the processing differences he/she'd be laughed out of the house. These scientific sites are often populated by people who either don't have great ears or don't have great systems. I've read on Hydrogenaudio a dozen times that good MP3s and CDs are indistinguishable, which is clearly not the case. I'm not saying I think FLAC sounds worse than WAV. But just because FLAC is lossless doesn't mean we, as audiophiles, must categorically rule out any sound difference. This type of thinking - that bits are bits - is why we've been saddled with crappy CD sound up until a few years ago, even though the standard came out in 1982. Everything bears testing, comparison, and scruitiny, even those things that appear obvious. FLAC needs an extra decoding step, and in any setup, this step has the potential to degrade the sound. -- JohnnyLightOn JohnnyLightOn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=28 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
JohnnyLightOn Wrote: These scientific sites are often populated by people who either don't have great ears or don't have great systems. I've read on Hydrogenaudio a dozen times that good MP3s and CDs are indistinguishable, which is clearly not the case. I'm not saying I think FLAC sounds worse than WAV. But just because FLAC is lossless doesn't mean we, as audiophiles, must categorically rule out any sound difference. This type of thinking - that bits are bits - is why we've been saddled with crappy CD sound up until a few years ago, even though the standard came out in 1982. Everything bears testing, comparison, and scruitiny, even those things that appear obvious. FLAC needs an extra decoding step, and in any setup, this step has the potential to degrade the sound. You're right. Perhaps one day science can tell us how computers work. -- CFP Speakers: FLAC Squeezebox 3 Digital Out Panasonic SA-XR57 Energy Veritas 2.4i Headphones: EMU-0404 Digital Out Zhaolu 2.0C DAC PMS-04 Headphone Amplifier AKG K701, Grado HF-1 || iPod Shuffle Shure E500 CFP's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Phil Leigh Wrote: Well, according to my TACT measurements, there is no rolloff of HF with the SB (2 or 3). I think what you're hearing is correct - the SB has a smoother top end than many digital sources/CDP's. YMMV. Thanks Phil, switching to the Glass toslink instead of the coax, I got better results (initially, I could not tell much difference - listening at a lower volume during night time). I am now very close to the sound of my transport. I think stock the coax output has higher jitter than the toslink. Maybe changing to a linear power supply might have benefits even on the toslink. Whether coax or toslink, it seems to me that the SB has more detail than the bits out of a CD player/transport. Supposedly the SB3 has a jitter of 50ps which is very good (if I remember the MF A3.2 CD player has similar specs). -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
SoftwireEngineer Wrote: Thanks Phil, switching to the Glass toslink instead of the coax, I got better results (initially, I could not tell much difference - listening at a lower volume during night time). I am now very close to the sound of my transport. I think stock the coax output has higher jitter than the toslink. Maybe changing to a linear power supply might have benefits even on the toslink. Whether coax or toslink, it seems to me that the SB has more detail than the bits out of a CD player/transport. Supposedly the SB3 has a jitter of 50ps which is very good (if I remember the MF A3.2 CD player has similar specs). From the thread- SB1 digital out compared to SB2 and SB3 “I just purchased a brand new SB3, and a colleague subjected the digital outputs to a quick jitter measurement using Audio Precision equipment. Results: SB3 digital coax out jitter: ~99ps, SB3 digital optical out jitter: ~892ps” -- mauidan mauidan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1679 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
sleepysurf Wrote: Well, I spent a couple hours investigating this further tonight. In a nutshell... RANDOM result. Thanks for the update, sleepysurf! It did seem a bit hard to believe that the difference could be so big. As you point out it's also a good lesson in statistics - two positive trials really aren't enough, but when we're expecting to find something we tend to seize on positive evidence immediately (whereas faced with negative evidence we might just re-do the test). This is exactly why blind tests, with enough trials, are the only way to decide if this effect is audible to anyone. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Hey opaqueice...I sent you a private message...let me know if you received it... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Kurt Wrote: I predict that within a week's time, almost everyone on the audiophile message boards will be insisting that this is an essential change that must be made to realize the full potential of the Squeezebox with an external DAC :) Ya think?! ;-) Let me ask this then. Why not? Is there any reason to leave the internal dac on if you are using an external dac? Whether or not someone hears a difference, this is totally costless (should even be insignificantly cheaper). So why not? Why ridicule the idea? -- samplesj Jeremy '2 Channel system' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=619) / 'HT system' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=620) / 'Den' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=636) samplesj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3342 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Actually, Kurt was quoting me in the referenced article, using quotation marks instead of the QUOTE tags. Certainly, this change can do no harm and costs nothing. However, claiming something makes a big difference in sound, and saying it does no harm are two different things. What I was satirizing was the audiophile bandwagon effect. That is, someone draws a conclusion based on an uncontrolled experiment. Then others, not wishing to be called tin-eared by saying they hear no difference, also chime in with their agreement, again based on uncontrolled experiments. If you go back to the beginning of the thread, the original claim of an improvement was based on changing two things at once - setting both the digital and analog attenuations. One change affects the digital output data directly, and the other does not. The claims of improvement will cause an expectation bias in the experiment, so to get an unbiased picture requires a test method that removes expectation bias. I have no issue with people going with what works for them, based on uncontrolled subjective experiments. I do this myself with my own system all the time. But there is a difference between saying X works for me and saying X is true. The difference is that people will claim these results to be some kind of indisputable fact when no controlled experiments have ever established that. The idea is that once an assertion has been repeated often enough, it is considered to be true, regardless of the facts of the matter. This phenomenon is known rather harshly as the big lie theory. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
mauidan Wrote: From the thread- SB1 digital out compared to SB2 and SB3 “I just purchased a brand new SB3, and a colleague subjected the digital outputs to a quick jitter measurement using Audio Precision equipment. Results: SB3 digital coax out jitter: ~99ps, SB3 digital optical out jitter: ~892ps” hmm..I feel my Sound Professionals Glass Toslink is better than my Zu Ash (tested earlier on my Philips 963SA). Even JA of Stereophile used a toslink ( a $400 Audioquest optilink 5) and found that the sound is very close or could not tell the difference between the SB and a Ayre player. Dont know how the measurements were made. It must they used a probe or interconnecting digital cable/toslink, that influenced the jitter badly. -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: I have no issue with people going with what works for them, based on uncontrolled subjective experiments. I do this myself with my own system all the time. But there is a difference between saying X works for me and saying X is true. The difference is that people will claim these results to be some kind of indisputable fact when no controlled experiments have ever established that. The idea is that once an assertion has been repeated often enough, it is considered to be true, regardless of the facts of the matter. This phenomenon is known rather harshly as the big lie theory. Andy - Perfectly summed up. We measure what we can up to a point, and beyond that we just believe. -- Kurt Main Entry: au·dio·phile Pronunciation: 'o-dE-O-fI(-)l Function: noun : a person who takes the pursuit of high-fidelity sound reproduction so seriously that they don't have to listen to music anymore. Kurt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2153 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Kurt Wrote: Andy - Perfectly summed up. We measure what we can up to a point, and beyond that we just believe. Hopefully we hear (and then believe)... -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I am one of those who agreed muting the analog volume control made a difference. I am willing to admit, however, that when I made the change, the difference I heard could have been caused purely by something akin to auto suggestion. I was told there was a difference, so I heard one, or thought I did. I have to keep an open mind when it comes to hi-fi, otherwise it is very easy to begin suffering from audiophilia nervosa. Colin -- Colin Reilly Colin Reilly's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1089 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Hi Colin, I actually have my attenuation set to 63, even though I didn't hear a difference. I figure, why not just attenuate the signal since I'm not using it anyway? Works for me :-). -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Did you hear the tweak about the black SqueezeBox sounding better than the white one? It's true. -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Did you hear the tweak about the black SqueezeBox sounding better than the white one? It's true. That's hilarious! Good thing I wan't drinking a beverage when I read this :-). -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Andy, here's a message I posted on the Sterophile forum about this subject, you may like it, It is always interesting to me that when a tweak like this comes along, there are always exactly two camps. A) Those who think the tweak improves the sound or B) those who can't hear any change. Ask yourself this, why is it that nobody every reports the tweak makes it sound worse? If there is actually an audible difference, given the subjective nature of audiophile preferences, don't you think at least one person would find the change negative? -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
ezkcdude Wrote: Ask yourself this, why is it that nobody every reports the tweak makes it sound worse? This isn't true. There are plenty of tweaks that I've tried that have made things sound worse in my system. -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
CFP Wrote: This thread took a dive into incredulity a few pages back. when it was proposed WAV sounded better than FLAC :P We here have been over this before, and unless you simply search the archives, I suggest we start a new thread if you'd like to discuss it. (Short answer: FLAC needs more processing in the SB, so no-one can claim the situations are fully equivalent.) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I ordered the SB3 on Monday and received the package on Wednesday itself (as I live in the Bay Area). I had earlier installed the Slim Server and Softsqueeze and had the setup ready with some 10 or 15 CDs worth of music on the harddrive. Thanks to this thread, I had disabled digital and the secondary analog volume control. The tiny switching power supply is plugged into a balanced power conditioner (BC MR1200) The SB3 setup was a breeze (only doubt was whether the WEP key as case-sensitive, looks like it is not). With the SB3 in the middle rack, I was getting drops. Then I put it on the topmost, next to my MMF5 turntable. Initial impression was lack of HF extension - on further listening I found I was getting more resolution, different drums sound differently, there was more texture in the sound of flutes, guitar/piano has more body. I switched between the glass toslink and the Zu Ash and could not tell much difference. Like any self-doubting audiophile worth his salt, I now doubt whether the HF extension is really missing or I am just used tothe 'digital edge' of a CD player (my Philips 963sa is supposed to have a 'clinical' sound according to Steve at Empirical audio). If I have to put it positively, the sound is non-edgy and almost reminds me of my turntable sound. I also enjoy the convenience of flipping thru my itunes playlist and listening to whatever I like, whereas otherwise I would be lazy to get up go and find a CD and play it. Still I can't seem to help doubt the SB3. Can somebody help me with some impressions/descriptions of the sound of the SB3 ? -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I also have a HTPC running RME9632. Comparing the HTPC setup with the SB2/3 (Both with digital out to DAC) I have also noticed that SB2/3 does not have the HF extension that I can get with the RME. Now, whethere this is digital glare, I don't know. But I like the sound of RME better. Waiting for the Transporter now. -- ackcheng ackcheng's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=133 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Well, according to my TACT measurements, there is no rolloff of HF with the SB (2 or 3). I think what you're hearing is correct - the SB has a smoother top end than many digital sources/CDP's. YMMV. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
seanadams Wrote: I assumed the transmitter was hard wired. Now we learn that it probably has a microphone pickup. I bet it's a fluke. Oh dear, I'll have to read these threads more carefully :). If that doorbell circuit uses a microphone, well, that's a recipe for all kinds of false alarms. Seems like it would be more expensive to make it with a microphone than a wired connection. Weird. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Well, I spent a couple hours investigating this further tonight. In a nutshell... RANDOM result. First off, I had pulled the transmitter off the top of my permanent doorbell chime, trying to determine how it works, what frequency, etc. When I put it back tonight, I couldn't (initially) get it to to trigger at all with my In Trutina test track. After replacing the batteries, and adjusting it's exact positioning a bit, finally got it working. I tried five repetitions of the test, using coax out to my Benchmark DAC, with mute off, then on. This time, I got random results, with the chime ringing once (sometimes even twice), or occasionally not at all, even before changing the mute setting. Having the analog RCA cables attached or not did not matter. However, I found that if I adjusted the Benchmark volume attenuator ONE click up or down, I could turn on or turn off the effect pretty consistently, regardless of whether the mute was invoked. When I posted my initial chime observation a couple days ago, I had only done two repetitions of the test, and quit, since I had 100% consistency on my findings. In retrospect, I should have done a few more repetitions to be sure. I think what happened is the Benchmark Volume setting was straddling the range that can trigger zero, one, or two, rings, possibly depending upon where I was standing during the test. I still think the analog muting DOES have audible improvement (in my setup), but can no longer offer my chime extender as objective proof. Hopefully somebody with an oscilloscope, or some other more objective measure, can definitively prove whether or not the mute tweak is real, or just a ding-dong theory. :) -- sleepysurf squeezebox2 (with elpac linear psu) to benchmark dac1, direct to sunfire cinema grand 200 ~five (vertically bi-amped) driving ml aerius i's, blue jeans cables. 'click to see my system' (http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=732) sleepysurf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I predict that within a week's time, almost everyone on the audiophile message boards will be insisting that this is an essential change that must be made to realize the full potential of the Squeezebox with an external DAC :) Ya think?! ;-) -- Kurt Main Entry: au·dio·phile Pronunciation: 'o-dE-O-fI(-)l Function: noun : a person who takes the pursuit of high-fidelity sound reproduction so seriously that they don't have to listen to music anymore. Kurt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2153 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
seanadams Wrote: I think you misunderstood me - neither has problems but when we are talking about picoseconds of jitter there will certainly be differences from one interface design to the next. The transformers we use are Vitec 1:1 made for s/pdif. They are used for both the input and the output ports for both BNC and XLR connections (four altogether). I also experimented with a few other makes and these were chosen for having the cleanest waveform - symmmetrical and fast, but with no under/overshoot. When I get a minute I will post some scope screenshots so you can see exactly what it looks like. Are you using the Vitec 16Z5752? If so, it appears to be exactly the same as the PE65612 made in Mexico 15 years ago. Look forward to your screen shots. -- mauidan mauidan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1679 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
sleepysurf Wrote: Now, this begs the question (for Sean I suppose), WHY does this work??? It certainly sounds like there could be a permanent software fix for this issue. So let me make sure I understand - this chime extender thing is a microphone that sits by the doorbell and listens for the doorbell chime, and when it hears it sends a signal to the remote unit (which makes a sound). You're saying if your music is playing certain notes loudly enough, the chime extender thinks it's heard the doorbell and goes off. Is that right? Now, the interesting part is that you say the difference between analogue muted and un-muted is so big the extender triggers in one case and not in the other. But that means a really big difference, not subtle at all - this doorbell extender is certainly a cheap microphone, possibly in another room (?) from the speakers - if it can consistently tell the difference I think SB has got a problem! I suppose one hypothesis would be that the analogue un-muted introduces lots of correlated jitter - so much that it amplifies those high notes and triggers the doorbell. Can you tell us approximately how many dB of volume increase you need to set off the doorbell even with the analogue volume muted? Unfortunately I no longer have an external DAC, so I can't test this. One check would be to record a sweep through a good measurement microphone with analogue muted versus unmuted and look for differences. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
opaqueice Wrote: So let me make sure I understand - this chime extender thing is a microphone that sits by the doorbell and listens for the doorbell chime, and when it hears it sends a signal to the remote unit (which makes a sound). You're saying if your music is playing certain notes loudly enough, the chime extender thinks it's heard the doorbell and goes off. Is that right? We must keep in mind the possibility that we're being reeled in by a prankster over this (in which case I applaud sleepysurf's mischief - we can all do with some light relief around here). But if we are to take what he says at face value, my reading is that the extender is NOT a microphone-based device. He says it's wireless, and I'd expect it to be RF rather than infrared (otherwise it would only work in line-of-sight). If that is the case, then the implication is that when the analogue output is not muted, the SB generates some amount of RFI that triggers the extender, and this interference goes away when the analogue output is muted. That suggests to me that the SB's internal DAC is the source of the RFI. Perhaps if the DAC receives just a stream of zeros, it doesn't bother to do anything. Or maybe even the Squeezebox firmware switches off the internal DAC when the analogue output is muted. Maybe Sean can comment on this. As for getting the extender triggered by turning up the level on the Benchmark DAC1, then we can conclude that even this exalted device can generate the necessary RFI if pushed far enough, so it's not as if the SB's DAC is somehow deficient in this respect. -- cliveb cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Q for sleepysurf: Is there a cable connecting the analog out of the SB to your preamp? If so, try the experiment with this cable disconnected. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
opaqueice Wrote: There's a gadget that sits on the doorbell, and is activated when it rings and sends the wireless signal. ok, I see! I didn't see that link to the actual extender! Quite a novel product! Then it seems almost certain that it is the audio itself that triggers the doorbell. If so, I'm glad a device can actually pick up a qualitative difference that can be heard -for a change! To verify this I suggest playing at a level that consistently triggers the extender, and then muffling the speakers using a rug or similar (rather than turning down the volume). Then the first and obvious thing to check must be if the digital level somehow changes when the DAC is muted. According to Sean it really should not. If it doesn't, what remains is the possibility that distortion sets off the extender. I can say that my ears can easily take about 6 dB louder volume, and still enjoy the music, than with the analog out active. So I would not be at all surprised if a whole lot of treble noise has been lowered. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Thank you for the wonderful tweak. I'm not sure why it matters, but yes setting that preamp mute made a difference in my system too. Its much cleaner sounding now so I'm sure I could crank it louder without problems too. Here is an interesting question. Of the people that can hear an improvement who is also running a Benchmark DAC1? Is it something specific to the DAC1 or more of a global improvement? -- samplesj Jeremy '2 Channel system' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=619) / 'HT system' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=620) / 'Den' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=636) samplesj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3342 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
samplesj Wrote: Thank you for the wonderful tweak. I'm not sure why it matters, but yes setting that preamp mute made a difference in my system too. Its much cleaner sounding now so I'm sure I could crank it louder without problems too. Here is an interesting question. Of the people that can hear an improvement who is also running a Benchmark DAC1? Is it something specific to the DAC1 or more of a global improvement? Oo sorry I just posted a new thread because I could not remember were I had read about the 63.0 mute thing, an interesting experiment a! Errr, not too sure what to do now with the different thread. errrmm... -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I tried this and noticed no change whatsoever. My system uses a stock SB2 going into a Berhinger DEQ2496, then a Benchmark DAC1 using TosLink for both digital connections. I have a laptop on a table right next to my listening chair, so I can change the setting of the analog attenuation without moving from my listening position, and without even moving my head. Just enter the new value, listen for a while with my hand on the mouse, then click the mouse to update the setting. I predict that within a week's time, almost everyone on the audiophile message boards will be insisting that this is an essential change that must be made to realize the full potential of the Squeezebox with an external DAC :). -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
aberdeencomponents Wrote: Phil Not as good as your refrence transport? You need to go to the Tacthackerforum, and tell them how it is! I got something that might give yout tport a run, hint..? O I stopped arguing with Tact owners long ago... ;-) Sure, what's the hint? My reference transport is pretty darn good... :-p -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: I tried this and noticed no change whatsoever. My system uses a stock SB2 going into a Berhinger DEQ2496, then a Benchmark DAC1 using TosLink for both digital connections. I have a laptop on a table right next to my listening chair, so I can change the setting of the analog attenuation without moving from my listening position, and without even moving my head. Just enter the new value, listen for a while with my hand on the mouse, then click the mouse to update the setting. Andy, when you changed the setting to 63, did you stop the music and then re-start it? As mentioned previously, you might have to stop streaming to the SB in order for the setting to take effect. (and fwiw, I used track 2 (Georgia) from Willie Nelson's Stardust album as my first listening test to try this tweak...it's a quiet track that makes noise-floor very noticeable, and a very well-recorded vocal track that is easy to hear differences) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: Andy, when you changed the setting to 63, did you stop the music and then re-start it? As mentioned previously, you might have to stop streaming to the SB in order for the setting to take effect. It would be great if those who hear a difference would try it blind. Just have a friend sit by the server, flip a coin - heads change the setting, tails keep it, then restart the track - and see how many times out of ten you get it right. That's simply the only way (not counting doorbells) to determine if this really makes a difference. I don't have an opinion one way or the other on if it's real (not having an external DAC anymore I can't test it myself), but on the other hand many other times - on this board and others - people (including me) who were quite certain they could hear a difference like this couldn't do so blind. Personally I'm always eager to try it blind, because I think it's amazing how easily our minds can trick us... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I've got NO idea what is going on here, but the difference is clear - my hand was resting on my subwoofer (where my mouse lives) when I changed the settings and restarted the track and I could easily feel increased vibration in the top of the sub cabinet...something is definitely different. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: Andy, when you changed the setting to 63, did you stop the music and then re-start it? As mentioned previously, you might have to stop streaming to the SB in order for the setting to take effect. Ahh, you're right. I hooked it up through the analog output of the SB and verified that the analog level stays the same until the streaming is stopped (not just paused) and re-started. This makes the test harder to perform. After changing the technique to re-start the stream, I still couldn't tell the difference though. Music used was the solo piano version of Malachi from Andrew Hill's latest album Time Lines. Great recording. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: Ahh, you're right. I hooked it up through the analog output of the SB and verified that the analog level stays the same until the streaming is stopped (not just paused) and re-started. This makes the test harder to perform. After changing the technique to re-start the stream, I still couldn't tell the difference though. Music used was the solo piano version of Malachi from Andrew Hill's latest album Time Lines. Great recording. Try taking the Berhinger out of the loop. If this tweak is reducing the noise floor of the sb digital out, maybe it is already lower than the noise floor of that piece of gear. Maybe try a coax connection instead too. Weren't the jitter specs of the optical out from the sb abysmal compared to the coax? I know the DAC1 is supposed to be immune, but still. -- samplesj Jeremy '2 Channel system' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=619) / 'HT system' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=620) / 'Den' (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/member_systems.php?sysid=636) samplesj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3342 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
samplesj Wrote: Thank you for the wonderful tweak. I'm not sure why it matters, but yes setting that preamp mute made a difference in my system too. Its much cleaner sounding now so I'm sure I could crank it louder without problems too. Here is an interesting question. Of the people that can hear an improvement who is also running a Benchmark DAC1? Is it something specific to the DAC1 or more of a global improvement? I have a TacT RCS 2.2x with a Aberdeen power supply upgrade (and various minor tweaks of my own). It would probably rate pretty highly against dedicated DACs. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
samplesj Wrote: Maybe try a coax connection instead too. I didn't notice that he was using the TosLink. Pure speculation here, but I would have guessed that muting the analog out would likely not have as much (at all?) of an effect on the Toslink out. Muting the analog out is essentially lowing the power demands of the power supply and reducing any EMI being generated by the analog circuitry...but since Toslink is optical, perhaps its not affected by these things? -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: I didn't notice that he was using the TosLink. Pure speculation here, but I would have guessed that muting the analog out would likely not have as much (at all?) of an effect on the Toslink out. Muting the analog out is essentially lowing the power demands of the power supply and reducing any EMI being generated by the analog circuitry...but since Toslink is optical, perhaps its not affected by these things? I hear a difference with TosLINK, but a larger difference with coax. I used to only listen via TosLINK before this tweak because I found that coax sounded too harsh. Now coax sounds better than TosLINK, which now sounds more closed in and imprecise in comparison. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: I am not using a Benchmark DAC, but the difference is very noticeable to me. Phil would you mind telling us what you are using? Larry -- LHawes LHawes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6244 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: I use a Dodson Audio DA-218 DAC (Note: I'm also a Dodson dealer) I hate to spoil the party (not sure for whom, however) but from dodsonaudio.com: Input signal jitter is eliminated by first clocking the input signal into a storage memory, then re-clocking the stored input signal out of the memory using a master clock with an unprecedented +/-2 picoseconds of phase jitter. After re-clocking, balanced differential drivers send the low-to-no-jitter re-clocked signal to the 24-bit/96kHz DAC chips. http://www.dodsonaudio.com/UltimateAudio_DA218_Review.htm Maybe he uses a sample rate converter before the buffer that turns the jitter into an integral part of the datastream, but that would sort of defeat the purpose of the buffering. BTW, have you tried various low cost SPDIF sources with the Dodson to verify the effectiveness of the buffering? (I.e: They should all sound the same!) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I've had long conversations with Ralph Dodson about whether a transport should make a difference or not with the DA-218...and the bottom line is that even with all the high-tech buffering and reclocking he does, the transport still does make a difference. Talking to other engineers in the industry, the consensus seems to be that jitter will always be a factor unless you use a master/slave word-clock architecture. I've tried a ton of SPDIF sources with the DA-218, ranging from the infamous $50 Toshiba 3950 univeral player to the $14000 Weiss Jason transport. No question that they all sound different (and yes, the Weiss transport was without a doubt the best, although you won't catch me spending that kind of money on a transport!). Off the top of my head, here's what I've tried: Toshiba 3950 Pioneer 593A Panasonic DV56 Sony S7700 stock Sony S7700 (basic mod by Empirical Audio) Sony S7700 (turbo mod by Emperical Audio) Arcam FMJ-CD23 DIY Pro2M transport kit (stock and with mods) Weiss Jason transport 47 Labs Shigaraki transport SqueezeBox 2 (w/stock and Elpac power supply) Olive Opus Oracle CD1000 transport (my current reference) There have been others, but I can't remember exactly. Btw - I wouldn't discount the Bybee stuff. For 30+ years, Ralph was head of General Dynamics' Black box division, designing military systems (missle guidance, etc). Quantum purifiers were originally developed for military systems purposes, so Ralph has a long history with them. I don't believe he would have used them in his designs if they didn't have real effect... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: Btw - I wouldn't discount the Bybee stuff. For 30+ years, Ralph was head of General Dynamics' Black box division, designing military systems (missle guidance, etc). Quantum purifiers were originally developed for military systems purposes, so Ralph has a long history with them. I don't believe he would have used them in his designs if they didn't have real effect... I don't know what's in them and I've never listened to one, but the description on the Bybee website of the way they work is utter nonsense. It's very hard to see why anyone would write something like that if they weren't selling snake oil. Here's part of it: Bybee Quantum Purifiers operate on the quantum mechanical level to regulate the flow of electrons that make up the signal (picture a metering light regulating freeway traffic flow). Current flow within the Quantum Purifier is unimpeded and ideal (think of the unencumbered flow of traffic on a lightly traveled expressway). During transit through the Quantum Purifier, quantum noise energy is stripped off the electrons, streamlining their flow through ensuing conductors. Unwanted quantum noise energy dissipates as heat within the Quantum Purifier rather than emerging as a layer of contamination residue over the audio/video information. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Yep, it certainly sounds like nonsense...no question about that. And I have never tried any of the Bybee products separate from my Dodson DAC, so I couldn't tell you any A/B-comparison-type experiences. But Ralph's engineering resume speaks for itself, and there's all sorts of published research on quantum voltage. Here's one publication by the National Institute for Standards and Technology with specific reference to D-to-A converters (albeit not for audio D-to-A converters): http://emtech.boulder.nist.gov/div817b/whatwedo/volt/volt.htm -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Has anybody done comparisons between the Coax and Toslink ? I have found that my Sound Professionals Glass Toslink beats my Zu Ash coax on my Philips 963SA DVD player into my Panasonic XR55. My Squeezebox has arrived today and I think I will either conneting the Zu Ash or switching the glass toslink to it, this evening. I am favoring the toslink, because JA of Stereophile used a Audioquest Optilink 5 ($400 !!!) with the sb and found it was hard to tell the difference between it and an Ayre player. -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
This thread took a dive into incredulity a few pages back. when it was proposed WAV sounded better than FLAC :P -- CFP CFP's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I've tried the Wireworld SuperNova 5 glass toslink cable and found it to be very good. Still prefer my coax, but the SuperNova is 1/2 the price of my coax cable and is 95% of the performance... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Dan Banquer found an EMI problem with the Squeezebox in this thread http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=30075.0, using an AM radio tuned in between stations to pick up the noise. In this thread http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=30207.0, he did more experiments and found that by breaking the galvanic connection between Squeezebox and DAC using a TosLink cable, he was able to eliminate the problem. If you have a high quality TosLink cable that you like, it sounds like it would be a safe bet. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: Yep, it certainly sounds like nonsense...no question about that. And I have never tried any of the Bybee products separate from my Dodson DAC, so I couldn't tell you any A/B-comparison-type experiences. But Ralph's engineering resume speaks for itself, and there's all sorts of published research on quantum voltage. Here's one publication by the National Institute for Standards and Technology with specific reference to D-to-A converters (albeit not for audio D-to-A converters): http://emtech.boulder.nist.gov/div817b/whatwedo/volt/volt.htm Well, there's nothing wrong with talking about quantum voltages, quantum currents, etc. - that just means the number of electrons involved is small, so quantization effects come into play. However the number of electrons flowing through an audio circuit is of the order of 10^18 (1 with 18 zeros after it). Furthermore there's no such thing as quantum noise energy, except maybe as a strange way to refer to quantum contributions to the energy of vacuum (and please don't anyone tell me the cosmological constant matters to audiophiles!). Anyway, we're at risk of falling very far off topic... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
opaqueice Wrote: Anyway, we're at risk of falling very far off topic... Yep...and despite taking an interest in learning how things work (or don't work), the ultimate test is whether you like the sound or not... :-) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: Here's a good article describing why you should use a 1.5m digital cable http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm Yikes. Any RF engineer that knows his transmission line theory and has experience with transmission line measurements knows that the information in that linked article is completely false. It can be verified to be false by using a SPICE simulator and the LTRA transmission line model. This model is a true distributed parameter model that takes into account reflections, delays, etc. For an alternative view on this from DAC designer Dan Lavry, see this thread http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/11678/0/0/0/ -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: Yikes. Any RF engineer that knows his transmission line theory and has experience with transmission line measurements knows that the information in that linked article is completely false. FWIW, the author of the article (Steve Nugent) was a transmission line engineer for Intel for 20+ years... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
A transmission line engineer for Intel? That's too funny. There really is no such thing as a transmission line engineer per se. That's like being the proverbial Maytag repairman. People that work on things like radar systems or wireless products that work in the GHz range must know their transmission line theory very well, but it's really a small part of what they do. People that work at digital companies like Intel in general don't have to know their transmission line theory at all. I worked for an RF/Microwave design and simulation software company that sold its softare to Intel for use in designing their wireless products (Centrino chipset). The RF/microwave area was new to them until they came out with those products. They had many early failures due to lack of RF/microwave design experience. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Well, I may have called it the wrong name, but I do know he's worked on some stuff for Intel involving long distance data transmission systems (or something like that). Perhaps the fact that Intel was never really successful in that market says something...? I'll tell you that having met Steve a couple of times in person, I'm not going to say he is the most humble person to talk with. But I've been a customer of his mod work, which I have found to be excellent. I've never tried any of his cables, but I've found that I do hear a difference using a 1.5m digital cable, an improvement over the same cable at 1m... Ralph Dodson, on the other hand, is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. :-) Anyways, I'm going to step back and stop defending these people's work...going to go listen to some music... :-) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c wrote: PhilNYC Wrote: Here's a good article describing why you should use a 1.5m digital cable http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm Yikes. ... [snip] .. engineer knows that the information in that linked article is completely false. The referenced article smells like snake oil to me, as well. No reason to degenerate into dualing experts. S/PDIF is a consumer mass market spec. It was designed to be everywhere and to be 'good enough'. It was primarily designed to be cheap. The idea that magic metals in the cable makes a cable 'digital' is simply marketing spin. All cables are analog. You put a voltage on a wire, and it flows (or the electronics flow, or the electron holes flow the other way, depending on your point of view.). The only thing digital is the signaling, which is the interpretation of the analog signal. With proper engineering, you can meet specs. By most standards, the SPDIF signal is just barely in the RF world, or at least not in serious RF mode. There are only 1.5 mega bits per second, just above the AM radio band. There is also the minor detail that no wire with RCA connectors on it can be 75 ohm, which is the spec for S/PDIF. RCA connectors have advantages (which is why the WW2 signal corp veterans who created 'hi fi' used them, but they can't be 75 ohm impedance, the size is wrong. So no matter what the conductors are made out of, or what magic super insulator covers it, there are impedance mismatches. Its a feature. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
pfarrell Wrote: By most standards, the SPDIF signal is just barely in the RF world, or at least not in serious RF mode. There are only 1.5 mega bits per second, just above the AM radio band. There is also the minor detail that no wire with RCA connectors on it can be 75 ohm, which is the spec for S/PDIF. RCA connectors have advantages (which is why the WW2 signal corp veterans who created 'hi fi' used them, but they can't be 75 ohm impedance, the size is wrong. Just to nitpick a bit, the bandwidth in the analog domain is determined by the required rise time of the pulses, not by the number of pulses per unit time. As you go to very fast rise times, the equivalent bandwidth becomes much larger than the bits per second of the serial data stream. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: Just to nitpick a bit, the bandwidth in the analog domain is determined by the required rise/fall time of the pulses, not by the number of pulses per unit time. Since the rise/fall times must be short compared to the pulse width (time duration of a single bit), the equivalent bandwidth becomes much larger than the bits per second of the serial data stream. Precisely right... and maintaining the slope of those transitions matters a lot if you care about jitter. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c wrote: By most standards, the SPDIF signal is just barely in the RF world, or at least not in serious RF mode. There are only 1.5 mega bits per second, just above the AM radio band. Just to nitpick a bit, the bandwidth in the analog domain is determined by the required rise time of the pulses, not by the number of pulses per unit time. As you go to very fast rise times, the equivalent bandwidth becomes much larger than the bits per second of the serial data stream. Right And signaling rate is not the same as bandwidth or data rate when you get serious. But fast rise times allows more transitions, which usually means higher signaling rates, which allows more data per unit of time. The key point is that SPDIF is not at rates that cause RF engineers to lose much sleep. Deal with 2.4 gHz to pick a random number that I curse with every day, and it takes some engineering. The analog dudes, down in the 20-20kHz range have it so easy. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
seanadams wrote: Precisely right... and maintaining the slope of those transitions matters a lot if you care about jitter. What? You mean real world wiring doesn't instantantously keep the square wave, with infinite slope, moving down the wire? :-) Isn't the actual, delivered slope, or triggering voltage, constant with a connection that is made and left in place for a few million cycles? let alone the months that more real world users keep their gear connected? While the DAC may have to be designed to handle a wide variety of actual signals, I'd expect it to have only a few values in a real installation. Which would mean that theoretical tolerance is not as important as tolerating the variance that your setup actually delivers. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Whenever digital audio gets mentioned, it seems talk of jitter is not far behind. Can someone provide for my reading pleasure a reasonably scientific experiment or white paper that measures the audibility of jitter, especially pertaining to the ranges commonly associated with decent audio gear (i.e. no straw-men)? -- CFP CFP's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6915 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
pfarrell Wrote: Isn't the actual, delivered slope, or triggering voltage, constant with a connection that is made and left in place for a few million cycles? let alone the months that more real world users keep their gear connected? I'm not sure if I follow you. I was not suggesting that a cable's characteristics change over time. I meant maintain in the sense that the waveshape as transmitted is not beyond the bandwidth of the cable. Of course, I'm not the type to own a cable cooker: http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/audiodharmacablecooker.htm :) -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
andy_c Wrote: Q for sleepysurf: Is there a cable connecting the analog out of the SB to your preamp? If so, try the experiment with this cable disconnected. If there is no such cable, or the problem persists when the cable is removed, try using TosLink between the SB and Benchmark. That will prevent conducted EMI between the two boxes. Late day at work, no time for testing tonight. However, to answer the above question, YES, I actually have BOTH the RCA analog out and TosLink digital outs feeding my Yamaha RXV-1000 (which I alternately use). The Digital coax is going direct to the Benchmark DAC. Complicating things further, I am using a Niles AXP-1, to switch between the Yamaha and Benchmark, feeding my amp. Tomorrow night I'll have (a little) time to test the effect separately with isolated outputs. I've glanced over the various postings on this topic, and opinions seem to go both ways re: ? improved sound. I posted my doorbell chime extender observation solely because, IMHO, it offers *objective* proof that *something* has changed. BTW, I'm not entirely sure how the chime TRANSMITTER works. It has 4 AAA batteries, and physically sits on top of my main doorbell chime box. There is a small opening which might be a microphone or some other sensor, and when it hears the main doorbell chime, it sends a wireless signal to the RECEIVING unit, which is A/C powered, and located at the back of my house. The RECEIVING unit is the one that I hear ringing (or not) depending upon whether the mute trick is invoked. Perhaps a phone call to Heath-Zenith can answer some questions re: the technical aspects. Clearly, more testing is indicated. -- sleepysurf squeezebox2 (with elpac linear psu) to benchmark dac1, direct to sunfire cinema grand 200 ~five (vertically bi-amped) driving ml aerius i's, blue jeans cables. 'click to see my system' (http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=732) sleepysurf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
sleepysurf Wrote: I posted my doorbell chime extender observation solely because, IMHO, it offers *objective* proof that *something* has changed. Yep. To tell the truth, when I first read your post, I thought the whole situation was extremely bizarre. But after thinking about it for a while, I realized that there is physically verifiable evidence here. And physically verifiable evidence, no matter how bizarre the circumstances is to me worth more than audiophile hearsay. That's why this whole thing is worth investigating further. I did look up these remote doorbells, and it appears some work at 400 MHz or so, and some work at 2.4 GHz (which begins to make sense). So a hypothesis might be that conducted EMI at around 2.4 GHz is getting into the system and radiating (via speaker cables?) and getting picked up by the doorbell receiver. That was why I suspected there might be a cable from SB analog out to preamp. The 63 dB attenuation at audio won't attenuate 2.4 GHz by nearly that much, but maybe by a few dB. If it's a conducted EMI problem, there's really only two paths originating at the SB - the analog output cable and the S/PDIF. If it's not a conducted EMI problem, I must admit I'll be lost at that point. But disconnecting the analog cable and replacing the S/PDIF cable with TosLink (one at a time) will eliminate conducted EMI originating with the SB. One reminder, but I'm sure you already know this. Before changing anything, be sure to repeat the problem with the remote doorbell, just in case something else has happened in the meantime to change things. -- andy_c andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
I assumed the transmitter was hard wired. Now we learn that it probably has a microphone pickup. I bet it's a fluke. Just try the experiment a few more times and you will find that muting the DAC makes no difference at all. Ideally, have someone else change the setting on the flip of a coin so that you don't even know what to expect as you play the track. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
mauidan Wrote: What pulse transformer are you using? A properly designed pulse transformer should have no problems with rise time or bandwidth. Is there a pulse transformer on the AES/EBU output? I think you misunderstood me - neither has problems but when we are talking about picoseconds of jitter there will certainly be differences from one interface design to the next. The transformers we use are Vitec 1:1 made for s/pdif. They are used for both the input and the output ports for both BNC and XLR connections (four altogether). I also experimented with a few other makes and these were chosen for having the cleanest waveform - symmmetrical and fast, but with no under/overshoot. When I get a minute I will post some scope screenshots so you can see exactly what it looks like. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
PhilNYC Wrote: I just tried this...very cool. Lower noise floor, reduced harshness in the vocals and cymbals...still not where my reference transport is, but I'm pretty surprised that the gap closed as much as it did. Interesting... If you have a system good enough to hear the difference from muting analogue out, then it might be worth testing using WAV instead of FLAC (if indeed you are using FLAC at the moment). The good news is that FLAC can be converted to WAV on the server side (Server Settings, File Types). (Verify by checking that fast-forwarding stops working when conversion is being performed.) In theory FLAC should sound exactly the same as WAV, but I maintain that I hear an improvement listening to WAV. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
Yeah, I've been thinking about that recently (my music is ripped to Apple Lossless at the moment). Will certainly do the test at some point soon... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: S/PDIF sounds poor
sleepysurf Wrote: Now, this begs the question (for Sean I suppose), WHY does this work??? It certainly sounds like there could be a permanent software fix for this issue. That's astonishing. If it is really 100% reproducible then I would start by trying to pare down the system to a minimal set of equipment that can trigger this. First diconnect speakers, then the amp, etc. If you can narrow it down sufficiently then we could try to set it up here and look with a spectrum analyzer to find the source of whatever triggers the door bell. Anyway, you get the award for strangest post ever! -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=26332 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
