RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Well your not the norm then Andy, most developers do not have that setup. Snake -Original Message- From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 09 May 2006 00:11 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. Andy ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239880 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Really? I presume you are not using Windows then? Or do you not use shares? -Original Message- From: Andy Allan Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. Andy ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239913 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Windows on desktop only. Shares? For what? Andy On 09/05/06, Plunkett, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really? I presume you are not using Windows then? Or do you not use shares? -Original Message- From: Andy Allan Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. Andy ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239921 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
For deployment of code. A big difference between production and development servers is whether developers (or anyone else, on a hardened DMZ server) are allowed access to the website files. On Windows you might use shares for this. -Original Message- From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Windows on desktop only. Shares? For what? Andy On 09/05/06, Plunkett, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really? I presume you are not using Windows then? Or do you not use shares? -Original Message- From: Andy Allan Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. Andy ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239923 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
We deploy code to our different enviornments directly out of Subversion. Andy On 09/05/06, Plunkett, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For deployment of code. A big difference between production and development servers is whether developers (or anyone else, on a hardened DMZ server) are allowed access to the website files. On Windows you might use shares for this. -Original Message- From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Windows on desktop only. Shares? For what? Andy On 09/05/06, Plunkett, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really? I presume you are not using Windows then? Or do you not use shares? -Original Message- From: Andy Allan Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. Andy ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239928 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
!RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Hey jeff, Think databaseBlocks.cfc could be tied into Flex? Good morning to you! Mark Fuqua -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going to develop Flex apps for a living then FlexBuilder is a must. Other wise, you can use another editor. I use PrimalScript routinely, and they will be providing full support for Flex2/AS3. I see Flex more as a way to build backend systems that would traditionally mirror the functionality of a tradtional client/server system. At least that is how I would use it. Administrative backends, private subscription areas, etc, places where the search engine is not going to tread anyway. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest concern with FLEX would be two-fold: 1) Cost of setting up the environment, including the cost of FLEX server and FLEX Builder (which, incidentally, isn't spelled out at all on the Adobe site...it just says contact us. Why can't they just post the price?!?!...) From what I was able to google...about $12,000+ ?!?! 2) Search Engine Marketing using Flash...most of my clients have realized a great site does nothing for them if it can't rank highly in the search engines. Unless things have changed, Flash can't be read by search engine spiders, and therefore, causes sites to rank poorly or not at all. Until spidering by search engines is solved, all-flash user interfaces are totally unacceptable for sites, not matter how Rich the interactivity... Thoughts on this, anyone? Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer OpenLaszlo has an IDE for visual editing. It looks interesting, haven't played with it much. Flex has a well integrated visual editor as well. They're both sorta left of the HTML experience though... I'm guessing VWD stands for Visual Web Design, and thus this comment. :)enny On 5/4/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be able to use VWD to develop pages visually, but not use the components...I can code the formfields, etc., manually. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239973 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Andy Allan wrote: Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Indeed. Production is boring (or at least it should be). You get a working setup from development and you don't touch it. It just runs. And if it doesn't, you go back to development, reproduce the issue, fix it, run a patch or configuration change through Test and QA and when it is good you run the deployment script again on production or swap the EAR files if that is your thing. Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. I run 4 webservers (1 IIS, 3 Apache) and 11 websites on 4 IP addresses on my laptop. I currently have 7 CF instances and 4 different versions of CF in EAR/WAR format so that I can swap any instance to any CF version with Ant while my own CFML source stays in place. My development workstation is far more complicated then any production I have ever seen. Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239986 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: !RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Hi Mark, Good afternoon to you. I don't know how to answer that at this point, as I have only run a couple samples waiting for F2B3 to be released before delving into Flex seriously. However, I think I would opt for writing different data access components for Flex connectivity. On 5/9/06, mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey jeff, Think databaseBlocks.cfc could be tied into Flex? Good morning to you! Mark Fuqua -- v/r, Jeff Fleitz ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239996 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I have to agree - I still think CF5 was more stable that MX. Java certainly did add a few more oddities in terms of stability which needs far more tweaking of the JVM. -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 May 2006 00:29 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Altho, all things considered with the improvements CFMX brings, I still find CF5 more stable than CFMX. The inclusion of JAVA to the equation increased the number of things that can go wrong on your server. Instead of just CF being the problem, you now have CF, JRUN and the JVM. An error on CF5 was a lot easier to diagnose too, whereas you have to know somehting about JAVA to decipher a JVM stacktrace. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 22:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the perspective, Denny. I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Of course, I'm speaking out of inexperience in actually using any of the later versions, especially the current one, but what would you say are the basic functionality advances in CF (or asp, jsp, or whatever) in the last decade? Sure, faster, more efficient ways of using code, faster execution, and... (I'm sure there are many other efficiencies I'm not aware of), but what basic purposes of CF have changed. One of the biggest changes I have been intrigued by is Flash remoting, and now Flex, but as one who builds sites that have to have search engine optimization as a major concern, Flash is totally disfunctional from that perspective compared with plain ole HTML. I guess I'm just looking at the very broad picture of dynamic data use, and not even just CF. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do about as much work as I do in a day that whole year. I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as I'd like to be. I agree, value is a concept like relation and plurals/singular(s), somewhat gray by nature. But Dave hit it on the head, your time is the factor you should consider above initial cost. Of course, your time is relative, so, it is a complicated formula (or is that equation? bah ;). Who knows what the future holds. Educated guesses are the best we can get. cfdump has saved me hours alone tho, seconded. Or thirded. :-) Good luck making up your mind, this is a decision that will continue to effect (or affect?) you for years to come, it looks like. :denny ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239799 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
You develop directly on your live server !! :-O !!! Do I really need to say anything? Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 00:48 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Sounds like you got things set up well for your development without risk to your production setup. I used to develop locally, but now, since I'm developing for CF 4.5 which is all that's on the server, I just develop right on the server. I set up development sites for clients under my domain so they can view design work and test functions as I development. That way they can see progress, provide feedback on design, test functionality, and get their training on the app as I go. By the time I'm finished, they're already familiar with the app. If I setup a new version of CF, however, it definitely wouldn't be on the production server. Testing and development would be on a different server, hardware and software. I try to be as cautious as resources will allow... Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer You gotta swim at some point. Agreed...I'm just trying to decide what pool to swim in this time. I hear you. In a changing world, assessing what the future will bring is not as straight forward as one would wish. =-] I think it would be wise to add ASP.NET to my repertoire. Especially if something should happen with CF, which I don't think it will. But if it should, I could use ASP.NET for business continuity.. The only real gripe I have about ASP is it's dependence on MS. With mono you can get around that, sorta, I hear, so it's probably not too big a deal, but it bugs me how MS always has to have some standard that is standard only to their products. =-/ I wouldn't say I was living in fear of change, I've just gone through enough upgrades with various products to know there are always issues. But now that I have several server that I can test new products on without having to touch my production server, testing becomes less risky. For sure. A good development environment is essential to any endeavour of this nature. Really essential. That is one nice facet to the multiple instances of CF idea, you could have one server instance that is for development and one for production, so if you crash and burn the dev instance you don't get the production one (theoretically, and not always true). As for the mirroring of dev and server, for years I've been able to have a pretty close setup to what's on the production server, including a VMware install for added testing, on my laptop. Now that I've got gigs of data to copy back and forth tho, it's getting a little tedious, and I can see a future where it's impossible to have the same setup as on the server, locally. Thus, a real interest in test cases and small amounts of data. Still just getting my bearings, but I can see the usefulness. So far what's working good is a production server, a dev server, and my local workstation (running more servers than the servers are ;-). So long as the dev server is real real similar to the production one, the transitions aren't too bad. Main campus adds a 4th step, a QA server, that is exactly the same as the production one, but called quality assurance instead. That's a smart setup. Cuts down on the need to deploy your apps in the dead of night. I gotta ask... 'leetness? What in the world does that mean? Heh. Sorry, it's sorta shorthand for elite. And where in this world is home for you? I hail from Albuquerque, New Mexico. The Land of Enchantment. [-= It's a swell town, give a shout if you're ever in the hood. :den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239800 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yep...no problem... Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer You develop directly on your live server !! :-O !!! Do I really need to say anything? Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 00:48 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Sounds like you got things set up well for your development without risk to your production setup. I used to develop locally, but now, since I'm developing for CF 4.5 which is all that's on the server, I just develop right on the server. I set up development sites for clients under my domain so they can view design work and test functions as I development. That way they can see progress, provide feedback on design, test functionality, and get their training on the app as I go. By the time I'm finished, they're already familiar with the app. If I setup a new version of CF, however, it definitely wouldn't be on the production server. Testing and development would be on a different server, hardware and software. I try to be as cautious as resources will allow... Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer You gotta swim at some point. Agreed...I'm just trying to decide what pool to swim in this time. I hear you. In a changing world, assessing what the future will bring is not as straight forward as one would wish. =-] I think it would be wise to add ASP.NET to my repertoire. Especially if something should happen with CF, which I don't think it will. But if it should, I could use ASP.NET for business continuity.. The only real gripe I have about ASP is it's dependence on MS. With mono you can get around that, sorta, I hear, so it's probably not too big a deal, but it bugs me how MS always has to have some standard that is standard only to their products. =-/ I wouldn't say I was living in fear of change, I've just gone through enough upgrades with various products to know there are always issues. But now that I have several server that I can test new products on without having to touch my production server, testing becomes less risky. For sure. A good development environment is essential to any endeavour of this nature. Really essential. That is one nice facet to the multiple instances of CF idea, you could have one server instance that is for development and one for production, so if you crash and burn the dev instance you don't get the production one (theoretically, and not always true). As for the mirroring of dev and server, for years I've been able to have a pretty close setup to what's on the production server, including a VMware install for added testing, on my laptop. Now that I've got gigs of data to copy back and forth tho, it's getting a little tedious, and I can see a future where it's impossible to have the same setup as on the server, locally. Thus, a real interest in test cases and small amounts of data. Still just getting my bearings, but I can see the usefulness. So far what's working good is a production server, a dev server, and my local workstation (running more servers than the servers are ;-). So long as the dev server is real real similar to the production one, the transitions aren't too bad. Main campus adds a 4th step, a QA server, that is exactly the same as the production one, but called quality assurance instead. That's a smart setup. Cuts down on the need to deploy your apps in the dead of night. I gotta ask... 'leetness? What in the world does that mean? Heh. Sorry, it's sorta shorthand for elite. And where in this world is home for you? I hail from Albuquerque, New Mexico. The Land of Enchantment. [-= It's a swell town, give a shout if you're ever in the hood. :den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239801 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Ok, well I assume your customers are all smallfry and wouldn't actually notice/care if u killed the server running some untested code that caused an infinite loop or somehting then. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 10:00 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Yep...no problem... Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer You develop directly on your live server !! :-O !!! Do I really need to say anything? Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 00:48 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Sounds like you got things set up well for your development without risk to your production setup. I used to develop locally, but now, since I'm developing for CF 4.5 which is all that's on the server, I just develop right on the server. I set up development sites for clients under my domain so they can view design work and test functions as I development. That way they can see progress, provide feedback on design, test functionality, and get their training on the app as I go. By the time I'm finished, they're already familiar with the app. If I setup a new version of CF, however, it definitely wouldn't be on the production server. Testing and development would be on a different server, hardware and software. I try to be as cautious as resources will allow... Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer You gotta swim at some point. Agreed...I'm just trying to decide what pool to swim in this time. I hear you. In a changing world, assessing what the future will bring is not as straight forward as one would wish. =-] I think it would be wise to add ASP.NET to my repertoire. Especially if something should happen with CF, which I don't think it will. But if it should, I could use ASP.NET for business continuity.. The only real gripe I have about ASP is it's dependence on MS. With mono you can get around that, sorta, I hear, so it's probably not too big a deal, but it bugs me how MS always has to have some standard that is standard only to their products. =-/ I wouldn't say I was living in fear of change, I've just gone through enough upgrades with various products to know there are always issues. But now that I have several server that I can test new products on without having to touch my production server, testing becomes less risky. For sure. A good development environment is essential to any endeavour of this nature. Really essential. That is one nice facet to the multiple instances of CF idea, you could have one server instance that is for development and one for production, so if you crash and burn the dev instance you don't get the production one (theoretically, and not always true). As for the mirroring of dev and server, for years I've been able to have a pretty close setup to what's on the production server, including a VMware install for added testing, on my laptop. Now that I've got gigs of data to copy back and forth tho, it's getting a little tedious, and I can see a future where it's impossible to have the same setup as on the server, locally. Thus, a real interest in test cases and small amounts of data. Still just getting my bearings, but I can see the usefulness. So far what's working good is a production server, a dev server, and my local workstation (running more servers than the servers are ;-). So long as the dev server is real real similar to the production one, the transitions aren't too bad. Main campus adds a 4th step, a QA server, that is exactly the same as the production one, but called quality assurance instead. That's a smart setup. Cuts down on the need to deploy your apps in the dead of night. I gotta ask... 'leetness? What in the world does that mean? Heh. Sorry, it's sorta shorthand for elite. And where in this world is home for you? I hail from Albuquerque, New Mexico. The Land of Enchantment. [-= It's a swell town, give a shout if you're ever in the hood. :den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239802 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
On 5/8/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to agree - I still think CF5 was more stable that MX. Java certainly did add a few more oddities in terms of stability which needs far more tweaking of the JVM. Oddly, 6.1 did much better for us, and 7 has been even better then 6.1. Didn't have to mess with the JVM much over here. A couple of things, like session timeouts for jrun or mailspool/thread settings came up eventually, but the solutions were all over the place, and editing the config wasn't too... ** Stability-wise. 4.5 was pretty solid, from what I remember. That's what I started on. *sniff* with my bud that's now gone. Alas. Eh, look at majordomo. That sucker lasted ferever. Solid. Solid as a rock. We built this city... Um... never mind. Got a little carried away. =-] Generally: Guess a lot depends on what you're trying to do, etc.., as to what problems you run into, etc.. Hmmm... well, that's all for me. ** Cheers Lev, wherever you may be. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239803 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I think it is also dependant on what your doing on the server. Single site, prob no issues. Multiple sites (i.e. shared hosting), that's when u have more problems. -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 12:34 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer On 5/8/06, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to agree - I still think CF5 was more stable that MX. Java certainly did add a few more oddities in terms of stability which needs far more tweaking of the JVM. Oddly, 6.1 did much better for us, and 7 has been even better then 6.1. Didn't have to mess with the JVM much over here. A couple of things, like session timeouts for jrun or mailspool/thread settings came up eventually, but the solutions were all over the place, and editing the config wasn't too... ** Stability-wise. 4.5 was pretty solid, from what I remember. That's what I started on. *sniff* with my bud that's now gone. Alas. Eh, look at majordomo. That sucker lasted ferever. Solid. Solid as a rock. We built this city... Um... never mind. Got a little carried away. =-] Generally: Guess a lot depends on what you're trying to do, etc.., as to what problems you run into, etc.. Hmmm... well, that's all for me. ** Cheers Lev, wherever you may be. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239804 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Snake wrote: Like everything. There is a big difference to hosting a production server with hundreds of sites on it and millions of hits per day and running a development server with 1 developer on it and no traffic. There is indeed a big difference in what you must do (like make backups) and especially in what you must not do (like run ET). But you said there was a lot more to *learn* to run a server. Isn't your development environment a close approximation of your production environment? So what do you need to learn to run a server in production that you do not need to learn in a development environment? Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239845 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
To tune the server and CF for high usage, multiple sites, large amounts of traffic, lots of memory usage, security etc. A development server will happily run with CF installed with the default settings as you will not be running hundreds of sites with millions of visitors, nor will you be generating thousands of sessions or client variables, or cached queries, nor will you be sharing the server with other customer and have to restrict certain things. Aside from CF there are of course the windows/IIS configuration differences, the security policies... The difference is night and day Russ -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 19:14 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Snake wrote: Like everything. There is a big difference to hosting a production server with hundreds of sites on it and millions of hits per day and running a development server with 1 developer on it and no traffic. There is indeed a big difference in what you must do (like make backups) and especially in what you must not do (like run ET). But you said there was a lot more to *learn* to run a server. Isn't your development environment a close approximation of your production environment? So what do you need to learn to run a server in production that you do not need to learn in a development environment? Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239866 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Our Development/Staging/QA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it mirrors Production exactly. CF settings, JVM settings, OS settings, Apache settings. It has to. (OK you can get away with the odd discrepency). Now true, we won't have external users hitting this environment, but we still have to load test it by simulating X number of users, etc so we are still creating the millions of visitors and thousands of sessions etc that you're on about. And I'm assuming this is what Jochem is on about??? Of course, if we're all on about the workstation I develop on before it goes to Dev/Staging/whatever then fair enough, it is night and day. Andy On 08/05/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To tune the server and CF for high usage, multiple sites, large amounts of traffic, lots of memory usage, security etc. A development server will happily run with CF installed with the default settings as you will not be running hundreds of sites with millions of visitors, nor will you be generating thousands of sessions or client variables, or cached queries, nor will you be sharing the server with other customer and have to restrict certain things. Aside from CF there are of course the windows/IIS configuration differences, the security policies... The difference is night and day Russ -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 May 2006 19:14 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Snake wrote: Like everything. There is a big difference to hosting a production server with hundreds of sites on it and millions of hits per day and running a development server with 1 developer on it and no traffic. There is indeed a big difference in what you must do (like make backups) and especially in what you must not do (like run ET). But you said there was a lot more to *learn* to run a server. Isn't your development environment a close approximation of your production environment? So what do you need to learn to run a server in production that you do not need to learn in a development environment? Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239870 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Well I guess for most CFML developers in a full-time job, the server side of things is not their problem, they just do the code. But if your self employed/freelance, and have to look after your own server and maybe even do the hosting as well, there is certainly a shedload more you need to learn to maintain a stable server. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 May 2006 00:49 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer And that's one of the major concerns I had about upgrading. After CF became JAVA based (if that's accurate), I started seeing things on this list I couldn't begin to comprehend, having had no experience with JAVA whatsoever. I felt like I'd really be getting in over my head trying to deal with issues of CF and, as you stated, JRUN, and the JVM. I finally had a stable CF system and was really afraid to touch it, being a one server business. I didn't have multiple servers as I do now, and couldn't afford for something to go wrong. The water got a little too deep for comfort. Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Altho, all things considered with the improvements CFMX brings, I still find CF5 more stable than CFMX. The inclusion of JAVA to the equation increased the number of things that can go wrong on your server. Instead of just CF being the problem, you now have CF, JRUN and the JVM. An error on CF5 was a lot easier to diagnose too, whereas you have to know somehting about JAVA to decipher a JVM stacktrace. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 22:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the perspective, Denny. I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Of course, I'm speaking out of inexperience in actually using any of the later versions, especially the current one, but what would you say are the basic functionality advances in CF (or asp, jsp, or whatever) in the last decade? Sure, faster, more efficient ways of using code, faster execution, and... (I'm sure there are many other efficiencies I'm not aware of), but what basic purposes of CF have changed. One of the biggest changes I have been intrigued by is Flash remoting, and now Flex, but as one who builds sites that have to have search engine optimization as a major concern, Flash is totally disfunctional from that perspective compared with plain ole HTML. I guess I'm just looking at the very broad picture of dynamic data use, and not even just CF. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do about as much work as I do in a day that whole year. I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as I'd like to be. I agree, value is a concept like relation and plurals/singular(s), somewhat gray by nature. But Dave hit it on the head, your time is the factor you should consider above initial cost. Of course, your time is relative, so, it is a complicated formula (or is that equation? bah ;). Who knows what the future holds. Educated
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
What's the criteria for being a loyal customer? Buying something every time they have something to sell whether it benefits me or not? Every time, which has been once, that I needed a means to produce dynamic websites and applications, I turned to Allaire Macromedia Adobe for that solution. I've never gone anywhere else. If a customer hires me to design a website and then it's 10 years before they want a re-design, but they come back to me for that re-design, I consider that loyalty. They don't have to get a re-design every year to be considered a loyal customer. Loyalty requires a pattern of behavior. Doing something once does not make a pattern. In your example, you consider your customer to be loyal when they return ten years later for a redesign. But until they return, it makes no sense to talk about their loyalty. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239789 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
there is certainly a shedload more you need to learn to maintain a stable server. I would have to agree with that...doing this all without any guidance or training (except from a little tech support and a lot of CF-Talk guidance!) has been a challenge at times. Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:01 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Well I guess for most CFML developers in a full-time job, the server side of things is not their problem, they just do the code. But if your self employed/freelance, and have to look after your own server and maybe even do the hosting as well, there is certainly a shedload more you need to learn to maintain a stable server. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 May 2006 00:49 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer And that's one of the major concerns I had about upgrading. After CF became JAVA based (if that's accurate), I started seeing things on this list I couldn't begin to comprehend, having had no experience with JAVA whatsoever. I felt like I'd really be getting in over my head trying to deal with issues of CF and, as you stated, JRUN, and the JVM. I finally had a stable CF system and was really afraid to touch it, being a one server business. I didn't have multiple servers as I do now, and couldn't afford for something to go wrong. The water got a little too deep for comfort. Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Altho, all things considered with the improvements CFMX brings, I still find CF5 more stable than CFMX. The inclusion of JAVA to the equation increased the number of things that can go wrong on your server. Instead of just CF being the problem, you now have CF, JRUN and the JVM. An error on CF5 was a lot easier to diagnose too, whereas you have to know somehting about JAVA to decipher a JVM stacktrace. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 22:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the perspective, Denny. I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Of course, I'm speaking out of inexperience in actually using any of the later versions, especially the current one, but what would you say are the basic functionality advances in CF (or asp, jsp, or whatever) in the last decade? Sure, faster, more efficient ways of using code, faster execution, and... (I'm sure there are many other efficiencies I'm not aware of), but what basic purposes of CF have changed. One of the biggest changes I have been intrigued by is Flash remoting, and now Flex, but as one who builds sites that have to have search engine optimization as a major concern, Flash is totally disfunctional from that perspective compared with plain ole HTML. I guess I'm just looking at the very broad picture of dynamic data use, and not even just CF. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
On 5/7/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would have to agree with that...doing this all without any guidance or training (except from a little tech support and a lot of CF-Talk guidance!) has been a challenge at times. No doubt. Customer support, sales, doing the whole thing yourself can take a chunk of time. Then there's tuning... have we even gotten to the coding yet? ;-) I take solace in the fact that at least I don't have to ask some administrator to do something for me. Of course, if there was an administrator, someone would be doing something for me, at least... Heh. I don't really have time to be breathing, much less yapp'n on cf-talk, but I guess you make time for the stuff you enjoy... maybe. Not too sure about that theory... seems a bit incomplete. I hope to god I'm not avoiding something I need to do. Eh. Probably some of both. Life is too short. I need to remember that, as I get carried away sometimes. Wow. Yeah, smell the flowers... :den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239792 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Snake wrote: Well I guess for most CFML developers in a full-time job, the server side of things is not their problem, they just do the code. But if your self employed/freelance, and have to look after your own server and maybe even do the hosting as well, there is certainly a shedload more you need to learn to maintain a stable server. Like what? I think my development environment is significantly more complicated then anything I have ever ran in production. Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239793 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Like everything. There is a big difference to hosting a production server with hundreds of sites on it and millions of hits per day and running a development server with 1 developer on it and no traffic. -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 May 2006 20:06 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Snake wrote: Well I guess for most CFML developers in a full-time job, the server side of things is not their problem, they just do the code. But if your self employed/freelance, and have to look after your own server and maybe even do the hosting as well, there is certainly a shedload more you need to learn to maintain a stable server. Like what? I think my development environment is significantly more complicated then anything I have ever ran in production. Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239794 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
You gotta swim at some point. Agreed...I'm just trying to decide what pool to swim in this time. I hear you. In a changing world, assessing what the future will bring is not as straight forward as one would wish. =-] I think it would be wise to add ASP.NET to my repertoire. Especially if something should happen with CF, which I don't think it will. But if it should, I could use ASP.NET for business continuity.. The only real gripe I have about ASP is it's dependence on MS. With mono you can get around that, sorta, I hear, so it's probably not too big a deal, but it bugs me how MS always has to have some standard that is standard only to their products. =-/ I wouldn't say I was living in fear of change, I've just gone through enough upgrades with various products to know there are always issues. But now that I have several server that I can test new products on without having to touch my production server, testing becomes less risky. For sure. A good development environment is essential to any endeavour of this nature. Really essential. That is one nice facet to the multiple instances of CF idea, you could have one server instance that is for development and one for production, so if you crash and burn the dev instance you don't get the production one (theoretically, and not always true). As for the mirroring of dev and server, for years I've been able to have a pretty close setup to what's on the production server, including a VMware install for added testing, on my laptop. Now that I've got gigs of data to copy back and forth tho, it's getting a little tedious, and I can see a future where it's impossible to have the same setup as on the server, locally. Thus, a real interest in test cases and small amounts of data. Still just getting my bearings, but I can see the usefulness. So far what's working good is a production server, a dev server, and my local workstation (running more servers than the servers are ;-). So long as the dev server is real real similar to the production one, the transitions aren't too bad. Main campus adds a 4th step, a QA server, that is exactly the same as the production one, but called quality assurance instead. That's a smart setup. Cuts down on the need to deploy your apps in the dead of night. I gotta ask... 'leetness? What in the world does that mean? Heh. Sorry, it's sorta shorthand for elite. And where in this world is home for you? I hail from Albuquerque, New Mexico. The Land of Enchantment. [-= It's a swell town, give a shout if you're ever in the hood. :den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239795 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Life is too short. Without a doubt... -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 2:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239796 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Sounds like you got things set up well for your development without risk to your production setup. I used to develop locally, but now, since I'm developing for CF 4.5 which is all that's on the server, I just develop right on the server. I set up development sites for clients under my domain so they can view design work and test functions as I development. That way they can see progress, provide feedback on design, test functionality, and get their training on the app as I go. By the time I'm finished, they're already familiar with the app. If I setup a new version of CF, however, it definitely wouldn't be on the production server. Testing and development would be on a different server, hardware and software. I try to be as cautious as resources will allow... Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer You gotta swim at some point. Agreed...I'm just trying to decide what pool to swim in this time. I hear you. In a changing world, assessing what the future will bring is not as straight forward as one would wish. =-] I think it would be wise to add ASP.NET to my repertoire. Especially if something should happen with CF, which I don't think it will. But if it should, I could use ASP.NET for business continuity.. The only real gripe I have about ASP is it's dependence on MS. With mono you can get around that, sorta, I hear, so it's probably not too big a deal, but it bugs me how MS always has to have some standard that is standard only to their products. =-/ I wouldn't say I was living in fear of change, I've just gone through enough upgrades with various products to know there are always issues. But now that I have several server that I can test new products on without having to touch my production server, testing becomes less risky. For sure. A good development environment is essential to any endeavour of this nature. Really essential. That is one nice facet to the multiple instances of CF idea, you could have one server instance that is for development and one for production, so if you crash and burn the dev instance you don't get the production one (theoretically, and not always true). As for the mirroring of dev and server, for years I've been able to have a pretty close setup to what's on the production server, including a VMware install for added testing, on my laptop. Now that I've got gigs of data to copy back and forth tho, it's getting a little tedious, and I can see a future where it's impossible to have the same setup as on the server, locally. Thus, a real interest in test cases and small amounts of data. Still just getting my bearings, but I can see the usefulness. So far what's working good is a production server, a dev server, and my local workstation (running more servers than the servers are ;-). So long as the dev server is real real similar to the production one, the transitions aren't too bad. Main campus adds a 4th step, a QA server, that is exactly the same as the production one, but called quality assurance instead. That's a smart setup. Cuts down on the need to deploy your apps in the dead of night. I gotta ask... 'leetness? What in the world does that mean? Heh. Sorry, it's sorta shorthand for elite. And where in this world is home for you? I hail from Albuquerque, New Mexico. The Land of Enchantment. [-= It's a swell town, give a shout if you're ever in the hood. :den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239798 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
And, frankly, I don't care if the software is 7 years old. They got $1300 7 years ago or so, and that's a lot more than they've gotten from someone who hasn't bought anything before. I just feel there should be some consideration for any previous customer's investment. Even if on a sliding scale based on years of age of product. They're basically saying CF 4.5 is worth nothing now...I don't agree. Strictly speaking, it is worth nothing now, in the sense that you should have fully amortized any software costs over less than seven years. But more importantly, Macromedia is not Microsoft, and Adobe is not Microsoft. Microsoft can afford to do what it does because every product they give away encourages the use of the two products from which they actually make their money - Windows and Office. The free software you're talking about isn't free at all - the costs are simply distributed across everybody who buys those two products. Other companies simply don't have that massive revenue stream that they can use to subsidize everything else - their products have to stand or fall on their own merits, and they have to pay for themselves. So, I think your expectations are pretty far out of line with reality. It seems that just sticking with one server on CF 4.5 will continue for as long as it's of value...but the second server will be ASP.NET 2.0...from there I can go into Flex 2.0, also. Wouldn't be surprised if MS didn't develop a Flex Builder tool that they give away for ASP.NET developers while Adobe wants $1000 for theirs... I kind of doubt that you'll ever be able to build Flex applications with Microsoft tools. I also kind of doubt that it'll be as easy to develop Flex apps that use ASP.NET server-side components as it will with CF. I don't mind companies making money. I'm in business for that. But I do reward long-time customer loyalty. Buying something once, a long time ago, and using it for many years, is not what most companies consider long-time customer loyalty. As far as they're concerned, you might as well have disappeared into a black hole in 1999. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239736 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
No, free isn't the main consideration, but it certainly helps. Not just the cost to me, but also to clients who want to deploy my apps in-house...I can save them $1300 everytime they want to buy an app. If I replicate the app completely and don't have to change it at all for each customer and allow them to customize it at will, and they have a basic server, hardware and software from MS, which they must have to get any use from the server anyway, then they only have to pay for my app to use it. No extra $1300 investment. I can sell a replicated app for $50 a pop, and still make money with ASP.NET. With CF, I've got to charge $1350 to make $50 and watch sales dry up because the cost is too high. That's the biggest concern. If you're really selling applications for $50 apiece, then yes, you're probably right. This is certainly not the norm for web development, though. For the vast majority of web applications, the cost of development and maintenance dwarfs the cost of software licenses. And the jump from static sites to dynamic sites, automated use of email, etc, that I went to when I first got into CF 4.5 was a FAR greater jump than from CF 4.5 to CFMX 7. As far as I can tell, it's just more efficient ways to do the same things that I do now. Well, sure! Before, you weren't writing programs. Now you are! Any improvement to programming languages/environments/etc will be incremental, compared to that! But more efficient is the name of the game in programming, which is why we're not all using C or assembler. Many, many times on this list, you've mentioned that you haven't time to learn various things, if I recall correctly. It appears that time is your most precious asset. I know that this is the case for me, as well. Only you can effectively measure the value of your time, and see whether doing things more efficiently is worth your while. As far as trusting software, cost doesn't determine value. When I moved from Access, which did cost me money, to MySQL a few years ago, which is completely free, I made a good investment in software...and it cost me less to do so. So just because something costs more doesn't make it better. No, but in general, in the world of commercial software (or commercial anything), expensive products tend to provide more utility than cheaper products. Comparing commercial software to open-source software isn't really a useful analogy to comparing commercial software with other commercial software. No, I don't want to learn ASP.NET 2.0 and C#, but it seems that for the future, for the reasons I've stated above, it will provide greater ROI...and that's what we're all after. Well then, good luck! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239737 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Rick Faircloth wrote: ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... All in one hand, from one vendor, vertically integrated from OS up to the browser was the great advantage of ASP too. Until that vendor discontinued ASP ... Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239738 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Buying something once, a long time ago, and using it for many years, is not what most companies consider long-time customer loyalty. As far as they're concerned, you might as well have disappeared into a black hole in 1999. I don't define customer loyalty as the customer buying something every time I have something to sell. I define it as a customer who buys something from me instead of my competition when *they* need something. That's loyalty... From your view, good business is the customer doing what's best for the company. From my view, good business is the company doing what's best for the customer. With that practice I win loyal cutomers, who I value, no matter how long between purchases it is. And, concerning amortization, the value of anything has nothing really to do with whether or not I've earned enough with a product to pay for it. The current value of a product is strictly defined by the customer using it. CF 4.5 still has plenty of value to me. It's paid for itself many times over...but that doesn't mean that Adobe now *deserves* more money from me. Cutting off the upgrade price at 4.5 just seems arbitrary. I'm sure they have reasons for the cut-off being there...notice I didn't say good ones. But they have to decide how to run their business, as do I. And, if so few people are using 4.5, what would it hurt to extend the upgrade price to that version or even earlier versions? Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 2:32 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer And, frankly, I don't care if the software is 7 years old. They got $1300 7 years ago or so, and that's a lot more than they've gotten from someone who hasn't bought anything before. I just feel there should be some consideration for any previous customer's investment. Even if on a sliding scale based on years of age of product. They're basically saying CF 4.5 is worth nothing now...I don't agree. Strictly speaking, it is worth nothing now, in the sense that you should have fully amortized any software costs over less than seven years. But more importantly, Macromedia is not Microsoft, and Adobe is not Microsoft. Microsoft can afford to do what it does because every product they give away encourages the use of the two products from which they actually make their money - Windows and Office. The free software you're talking about isn't free at all - the costs are simply distributed across everybody who buys those two products. Other companies simply don't have that massive revenue stream that they can use to subsidize everything else - their products have to stand or fall on their own merits, and they have to pay for themselves. So, I think your expectations are pretty far out of line with reality. It seems that just sticking with one server on CF 4.5 will continue for as long as it's of value...but the second server will be ASP.NET 2.0...from there I can go into Flex 2.0, also. Wouldn't be surprised if MS didn't develop a Flex Builder tool that they give away for ASP.NET developers while Adobe wants $1000 for theirs... I kind of doubt that you'll ever be able to build Flex applications with Microsoft tools. I also kind of doubt that it'll be as easy to develop Flex apps that use ASP.NET server-side components as it will with CF. I don't mind companies making money. I'm in business for that. But I do reward long-time customer loyalty. Buying something once, a long time ago, and using it for many years, is not what most companies consider long-time customer loyalty. As far as they're concerned, you might as well have disappeared into a black hole in 1999. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239739 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Longevity is certainly a concern for any product line. MS can afford a lot more loss leader products than can other companies. I would hope MS would continue along the path they're on, but there are no guarantees...as there are no guarantees that Adobe will continue with CF...that was a big concern for a lot of people when the buyout first occurred... Rick -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 5:39 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Rick Faircloth wrote: ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... All in one hand, from one vendor, vertically integrated from OS up to the browser was the great advantage of ASP too. Until that vendor discontinued ASP ... Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239740 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
From your view, good business is the customer doing what's best for the company. From my view, good business is the company doing what's best for the customer. That's not my view at all. However, you mentioned that you were a loyal customer; I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. As for your view, if you carry that to its extreme, you would go out of business pretty quickly. After all, it would be best for your customers if you worked for free. CF 4.5 still has plenty of value to me. It's paid for itself many times over...but that doesn't mean that Adobe now *deserves* more money from me. Who said anything about deserving? If their product is worth its cost, buy it. If it's not, don't buy it. You know how much it will cost, so you should be able to figure this out for yourself (and you may have already). But there's absolutely no point in going on about how you deserve to pay less than they're willing to sell for, because that's not going to happen. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239747 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. What's the criteria for being a loyal customer? Buying something every time they have something to sell whether it benefits me or not? Every time, which has been once, that I needed a means to produce dynamic websites and applications, I turned to Allaire Macromedia Adobe for that solution. I've never gone anywhere else. If a customer hires me to design a website and then it's 10 years before they want a re-design, but they come back to me for that re-design, I consider that loyalty. They don't have to get a re-design every year to be considered a loyal customer. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 1:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer From your view, good business is the customer doing what's best for the company. From my view, good business is the company doing what's best for the customer. That's not my view at all. However, you mentioned that you were a loyal customer; I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. As for your view, if you carry that to its extreme, you would go out of business pretty quickly. After all, it would be best for your customers if you worked for free. CF 4.5 still has plenty of value to me. It's paid for itself many times over...but that doesn't mean that Adobe now *deserves* more money from me. Who said anything about deserving? If their product is worth its cost, buy it. If it's not, don't buy it. You know how much it will cost, so you should be able to figure this out for yourself (and you may have already). But there's absolutely no point in going on about how you deserve to pay less than they're willing to sell for, because that's not going to happen. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239749 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Interesting concept, but you would have to wait 10 years to find out they are a loyal customer though. In the case of big corporates like Adobe, a loyal and worthy customer is someone who spends shedloads of money not just someone who uses their product and sticks with it. I know Macromedia didn't have time for anyone spending less than $50k, so I would imagine Adobe are probably the same. The criteria will always be different depending on the company and its size. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 18:50 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. What's the criteria for being a loyal customer? Buying something every time they have something to sell whether it benefits me or not? Every time, which has been once, that I needed a means to produce dynamic websites and applications, I turned to Allaire Macromedia Adobe for that solution. I've never gone anywhere else. If a customer hires me to design a website and then it's 10 years before they want a re-design, but they come back to me for that re-design, I consider that loyalty. They don't have to get a re-design every year to be considered a loyal customer. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 1:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer From your view, good business is the customer doing what's best for the company. From my view, good business is the company doing what's best for the customer. That's not my view at all. However, you mentioned that you were a loyal customer; I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. As for your view, if you carry that to its extreme, you would go out of business pretty quickly. After all, it would be best for your customers if you worked for free. CF 4.5 still has plenty of value to me. It's paid for itself many times over...but that doesn't mean that Adobe now *deserves* more money from me. Who said anything about deserving? If their product is worth its cost, buy it. If it's not, don't buy it. You know how much it will cost, so you should be able to figure this out for yourself (and you may have already). But there's absolutely no point in going on about how you deserve to pay less than they're willing to sell for, because that's not going to happen. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239753 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do about as much work as I do in a day that whole year. I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as I'd like to be. I agree, value is a concept like relation and plurals/singular(s), somewhat gray by nature. But Dave hit it on the head, your time is the factor you should consider above initial cost. Of course, your time is relative, so, it is a complicated formula (or is that equation? bah ;). Who knows what the future holds. Educated guesses are the best we can get. cfdump has saved me hours alone tho, seconded. Or thirded. :-) Good luck making up your mind, this is a decision that will continue to effect (or affect?) you for years to come, it looks like. :denny ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239758 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yeah, I realize that a one-man operation like mine doesn't mean peanuts to Adobe, but that kinda supports my theory of why not offer the upgrade price to everyone, if the small-time spenders like myself are usually the ones hanging on to old technology...the extra $650 or sol dollars makes a lot more of a difference to me than to them. But each company, including my own, gets to conduct business however they please. So, as I enjoy my freedom, they should, too. Have a good evening, everyone! Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Interesting concept, but you would have to wait 10 years to find out they are a loyal customer though. In the case of big corporates like Adobe, a loyal and worthy customer is someone who spends shedloads of money not just someone who uses their product and sticks with it. I know Macromedia didn't have time for anyone spending less than $50k, so I would imagine Adobe are probably the same. The criteria will always be different depending on the company and its size. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 18:50 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. What's the criteria for being a loyal customer? Buying something every time they have something to sell whether it benefits me or not? Every time, which has been once, that I needed a means to produce dynamic websites and applications, I turned to Allaire Macromedia Adobe for that solution. I've never gone anywhere else. If a customer hires me to design a website and then it's 10 years before they want a re-design, but they come back to me for that re-design, I consider that loyalty. They don't have to get a re-design every year to be considered a loyal customer. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 1:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer From your view, good business is the customer doing what's best for the company. From my view, good business is the company doing what's best for the customer. That's not my view at all. However, you mentioned that you were a loyal customer; I simply pointed out that most companies don't consider someone who buys one product, once, to be a loyal customer. As for your view, if you carry that to its extreme, you would go out of business pretty quickly. After all, it would be best for your customers if you worked for free. CF 4.5 still has plenty of value to me. It's paid for itself many times over...but that doesn't mean that Adobe now *deserves* more money from me. Who said anything about deserving? If their product is worth its cost, buy it. If it's not, don't buy it. You know how much it will cost, so you should be able to figure this out for yourself (and you may have already). But there's absolutely no point in going on about how you deserve to pay less than they're willing to sell for, because that's not going to happen. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239765 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks for the perspective, Denny. I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Of course, I'm speaking out of inexperience in actually using any of the later versions, especially the current one, but what would you say are the basic functionality advances in CF (or asp, jsp, or whatever) in the last decade? Sure, faster, more efficient ways of using code, faster execution, and... (I'm sure there are many other efficiencies I'm not aware of), but what basic purposes of CF have changed. One of the biggest changes I have been intrigued by is Flash remoting, and now Flex, but as one who builds sites that have to have search engine optimization as a major concern, Flash is totally disfunctional from that perspective compared with plain ole HTML. I guess I'm just looking at the very broad picture of dynamic data use, and not even just CF. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do about as much work as I do in a day that whole year. I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as I'd like to be. I agree, value is a concept like relation and plurals/singular(s), somewhat gray by nature. But Dave hit it on the head, your time is the factor you should consider above initial cost. Of course, your time is relative, so, it is a complicated formula (or is that equation? bah ;). Who knows what the future holds. Educated guesses are the best we can get. cfdump has saved me hours alone tho, seconded. Or thirded. :-) Good luck making up your mind, this is a decision that will continue to effect (or affect?) you for years to come, it looks like. :denny ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239766 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Altho, all things considered with the improvements CFMX brings, I still find CF5 more stable than CFMX. The inclusion of JAVA to the equation increased the number of things that can go wrong on your server. Instead of just CF being the problem, you now have CF, JRUN and the JVM. An error on CF5 was a lot easier to diagnose too, whereas you have to know somehting about JAVA to decipher a JVM stacktrace. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 22:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the perspective, Denny. I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Of course, I'm speaking out of inexperience in actually using any of the later versions, especially the current one, but what would you say are the basic functionality advances in CF (or asp, jsp, or whatever) in the last decade? Sure, faster, more efficient ways of using code, faster execution, and... (I'm sure there are many other efficiencies I'm not aware of), but what basic purposes of CF have changed. One of the biggest changes I have been intrigued by is Flash remoting, and now Flex, but as one who builds sites that have to have search engine optimization as a major concern, Flash is totally disfunctional from that perspective compared with plain ole HTML. I guess I'm just looking at the very broad picture of dynamic data use, and not even just CF. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do about as much work as I do in a day that whole year. I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as I'd like to be. I agree, value is a concept like relation and plurals/singular(s), somewhat gray by nature. But Dave hit it on the head, your time is the factor you should consider above initial cost. Of course, your time is relative, so, it is a complicated formula (or is that equation? bah ;). Who knows what the future holds. Educated guesses are the best we can get. cfdump has saved me hours alone tho, seconded. Or thirded. :-) Good luck making up your mind, this is a decision that will continue to effect (or affect?) you for years to come, it looks like. :denny ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239769 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
And that's one of the major concerns I had about upgrading. After CF became JAVA based (if that's accurate), I started seeing things on this list I couldn't begin to comprehend, having had no experience with JAVA whatsoever. I felt like I'd really be getting in over my head trying to deal with issues of CF and, as you stated, JRUN, and the JVM. I finally had a stable CF system and was really afraid to touch it, being a one server business. I didn't have multiple servers as I do now, and couldn't afford for something to go wrong. The water got a little too deep for comfort. Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Altho, all things considered with the improvements CFMX brings, I still find CF5 more stable than CFMX. The inclusion of JAVA to the equation increased the number of things that can go wrong on your server. Instead of just CF being the problem, you now have CF, JRUN and the JVM. An error on CF5 was a lot easier to diagnose too, whereas you have to know somehting about JAVA to decipher a JVM stacktrace. Snake -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2006 22:26 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the perspective, Denny. I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Of course, I'm speaking out of inexperience in actually using any of the later versions, especially the current one, but what would you say are the basic functionality advances in CF (or asp, jsp, or whatever) in the last decade? Sure, faster, more efficient ways of using code, faster execution, and... (I'm sure there are many other efficiencies I'm not aware of), but what basic purposes of CF have changed. One of the biggest changes I have been intrigued by is Flash remoting, and now Flex, but as one who builds sites that have to have search engine optimization as a major concern, Flash is totally disfunctional from that perspective compared with plain ole HTML. I guess I'm just looking at the very broad picture of dynamic data use, and not even just CF. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Out of curiosity, has anyone called adobe and tried the old human element? I only dealt with MM via email, but they were pretty helpful. Some companies give their employees (i.e. sales department folks) more power than others, allowing them to make exceptions based on their judgement. It doesn't hurt to mention that you have several sites running 4.5, so they'd be getting more than a one time purchase. Sometimes future money is worth something, probably more than old money, but... I dunno. Depends on who you get, and how you handle it, etc.. Worth a try tho if you're serious about it. I know I mentioned this earlier, but I don't know if it happened, and if it did, I'd be interested in how helpful (or non-helpful) the sales reps are/were. Maybe Snake is correct, and they are only looking out for the big spenders, I haven't dealt with anyone personally in quite a while, so... Well, the human element is sooo hit and miss tho, I guess one's experience wouldn't reflect/help too much with an other's. Eh, worth a shot at least. I think Dave W. has the right idea, there has been a lot of work put into CF, and I disagree with the idea that not much has changed since 4.5. There are tons of areas with slick stuff that was never available before, clustering is easier than ever, etc.. For contrast, where I work we use an app that costs us $7000 a year, and they do about as much work as I do in a day that whole year. I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as I'd like to be. I agree, value is a concept like relation and plurals/singular(s), somewhat gray by nature. But Dave hit it on the head, your time is the factor you should consider above initial cost. Of course, your time is relative, so, it is a complicated formula (or is that equation? bah ;). Who knows what the future holds. Educated guesses are the best we can get. cfdump has saved me hours alone tho, seconded. Or thirded. :-) Good luck making up your mind, this is a decision that will continue to effect (or affect?) you for years to come, it looks like. :denny ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239770 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
On 5/6/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the perspective, Denny. Hey, anytime. It's about all I got, so... [-= I've haven't tried talking with Adobe about it, but should I decide to upgrade, I'll certainly talk to them. As far as the changes from 4.5 to the current version, I wasn't saying not much has changed, except from the standpoint of all the changes still end up performing add, update, delete, report as the basics of CF functionality. Here you've got the basic wheel theory. The wheel has been around for a long time. It does today what it did several thousand years ago, gets you from point A to point B a little easier than big, flat feet. So from one standpoint, nothing at all has really changed, we still use a circle for something a circle is good for: rolling. (The Hudsucker Proxy(? a movie about a circle sorta) comes to mind...) Yet I bet the modern additions of stuff like rubber and traction control(the formulas!) and such would wig a cave man out. you mean this one can go through MUD!?! Wow! etc. So not much has changed, but MAN has a lot changed. No hard examples from me, I'm too close to see what's different, but the various changelogs are a good place to start. If you are interested in the long, winding, uncut version of this response, I'll send it privately. I totally wandered off tho... Started talking about how HTML isn't the best of mediums, (and never has been) and my dad's old dual motorbike and Boyd/airplanes and random OT stuff like that. Nothing more useful than the above, presumably. The first couple paragraphs were about all that actually addressed the new question (if any). Take THAT, chaos! :-Den ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239772 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I finally had a stable CF system and was really afraid to touch it, being a one server business. I didn't have multiple servers as I do now, and couldn't afford for something to go wrong. The water got a little too deep for comfort. You gotta swim at some point. And you also need to get into The Cycle, as it were. IF you want to. Stone/wooden wheels are still in use to this day, so of course it isn't really needed. I'm fascinated with the whole process, how things evolve and whatnot. It's cool that there are developer versions of things, so you can test them out, if you can find the time. I've been running MySQL 5 for a week or so now on my dev box, so I'll already have patched the leaks, so to speak, when I decide to upgrade the production server (or have to, roughly 5 years from now, give or take. ;). One disadvantage of being 'leet 'n having stuff still running (and believe me, there is a 'leetness to it) is the limited interaction with new products, or plain non-usability of new products, do to requirement changes. A quote from a movie I really liked, but didn't think I would: Don't live your life in FEAR! - Ballroom Dancing Heh. Well, enogh of my blather, I could stay on topic* and still have people wanting me to shut up, so I'll get to focusing on what is at hand, here in front of me. *theoretically Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts, as it were, and again, may The Force be with you and your decisions. :denny ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239774 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
My biggest concern with FLEX would be two-fold: 1) Cost of setting up the environment, including the cost of FLEX server and FLEX Builder (which, incidentally, isn't spelled out at all on the Adobe site...it just says contact us. Why can't they just post the price?!?!...) From what I was able to google...about $12,000+ ?!?! 2) Search Engine Marketing using Flash...most of my clients have realized a great site does nothing for them if it can't rank highly in the search engines. Unless things have changed, Flash can't be read by search engine spiders, and therefore, causes sites to rank poorly or not at all. Until spidering by search engines is solved, all-flash user interfaces are totally unacceptable for sites, not matter how Rich the interactivity... Thoughts on this, anyone? Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer OpenLaszlo has an IDE for visual editing. It looks interesting, haven't played with it much. Flex has a well integrated visual editor as well. They're both sorta left of the HTML experience though... I'm guessing VWD stands for Visual Web Design, and thus this comment. :)enny On 5/4/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be able to use VWD to develop pages visually, but not use the components...I can code the formfields, etc., manually. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239594 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Rich Interface Accessibility Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I did a google a while back when I took a look at the Flex2 builder plugin for Eclipse (Or more the videos demonstrating it.) for Flash accessibility issues. There were some caveats, but I don't remember any real show stoppers. I think the spidering is handleable as well. The price issue is a consideration... I am intrigued by openlaszlo because it looks like they are about to release a DHTML engine in addition to the current flash one. Nifty. But they're both pretty far removed from the HTML Tao. That's what I've been thinking about this lately... :Denny On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest concern with FLEX would be two-fold: 1) Cost of setting up the environment, including the cost of FLEX server and FLEX Builder (which, incidentally, isn't spelled out at all on the Adobe site...it just says contact us. Why can't they just post the price?!?!...) From what I was able to google...about $12,000+ ?!?! 2) Search Engine Marketing using Flash...most of my clients have realized a great site does nothing for them if it can't rank highly in the search engines. Unless things have changed, Flash can't be read by search engine spiders, and therefore, causes sites to rank poorly or not at all. Until spidering by search engines is solved, all-flash user interfaces are totally unacceptable for sites, not matter how Rich the interactivity... Thoughts on this, anyone? Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239596 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going to develop Flex apps for a living then FlexBuilder is a must. Other wise, you can use another editor. I use PrimalScript routinely, and they will be providing full support for Flex2/AS3. I see Flex more as a way to build backend systems that would traditionally mirror the functionality of a tradtional client/server system. At least that is how I would use it. Administrative backends, private subscription areas, etc, places where the search engine is not going to tread anyway. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest concern with FLEX would be two-fold: 1) Cost of setting up the environment, including the cost of FLEX server and FLEX Builder (which, incidentally, isn't spelled out at all on the Adobe site...it just says contact us. Why can't they just post the price?!?!...) From what I was able to google...about $12,000+ ?!?! 2) Search Engine Marketing using Flash...most of my clients have realized a great site does nothing for them if it can't rank highly in the search engines. Unless things have changed, Flash can't be read by search engine spiders, and therefore, causes sites to rank poorly or not at all. Until spidering by search engines is solved, all-flash user interfaces are totally unacceptable for sites, not matter how Rich the interactivity... Thoughts on this, anyone? Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer OpenLaszlo has an IDE for visual editing. It looks interesting, haven't played with it much. Flex has a well integrated visual editor as well. They're both sorta left of the HTML experience though... I'm guessing VWD stands for Visual Web Design, and thus this comment. :)enny On 5/4/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be able to use VWD to develop pages visually, but not use the components...I can code the formfields, etc., manually. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239601 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll. Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going to develop Flex apps for a living then FlexBuilder is a must. Other wise, you can use another editor. I use PrimalScript routinely, and they will be providing full support for Flex2/AS3. I see Flex more as a way to build backend systems that would traditionally mirror the functionality of a tradtional client/server system. At least that is how I would use it. Administrative backends, private subscription areas, etc, places where the search engine is not going to tread anyway. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest concern with FLEX would be two-fold: 1) Cost of setting up the environment, including the cost of FLEX server and FLEX Builder (which, incidentally, isn't spelled out at all on the Adobe site...it just says contact us. Why can't they just post the price?!?!...) From what I was able to google...about $12,000+ ?!?! 2) Search Engine Marketing using Flash...most of my clients have realized a great site does nothing for them if it can't rank highly in the search engines. Unless things have changed, Flash can't be read by search engine spiders, and therefore, causes sites to rank poorly or not at all. Until spidering by search engines is solved, all-flash user interfaces are totally unacceptable for sites, not matter how Rich the interactivity... Thoughts on this, anyone? Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer OpenLaszlo has an IDE for visual editing. It looks interesting, haven't played with it much. Flex has a well integrated visual editor as well. They're both sorta left of the HTML experience though... I'm guessing VWD stands for Visual Web Design, and thus this comment. :)enny On 5/4/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be able to use VWD to develop pages visually, but not use the components...I can code the formfields, etc., manually. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239604 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple projects. CFEclipse is really coming along (nice job guys). On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll. Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going to develop Flex apps for a living then FlexBuilder is a must. Other wise, you can use another editor. I use PrimalScript routinely, and they will be providing full support for Flex2/AS3. I see Flex more as a way to build backend systems that would traditionally mirror the functionality of a tradtional client/server system. At least that is how I would use it. Administrative backends, private subscription areas, etc, places where the search engine is not going to tread anyway. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest concern with FLEX would be two-fold: 1) Cost of setting up the environment, including the cost of FLEX server and FLEX Builder (which, incidentally, isn't spelled out at all on the Adobe site...it just says contact us. Why can't they just post the price?!?!...) From what I was able to google...about $12,000+ ?!?! 2) Search Engine Marketing using Flash...most of my clients have realized a great site does nothing for them if it can't rank highly in the search engines. Unless things have changed, Flash can't be read by search engine spiders, and therefore, causes sites to rank poorly or not at all. Until spidering by search engines is solved, all-flash user interfaces are totally unacceptable for sites, not matter how Rich the interactivity... Thoughts on this, anyone? Rick -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer OpenLaszlo has an IDE for visual editing. It looks interesting, haven't played with it much. Flex has a well integrated visual editor as well. They're both sorta left of the HTML experience though... I'm guessing VWD stands for Visual Web Design, and thus this comment. :)enny On 5/4/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be able to use VWD to develop pages visually, but not use the components...I can code the formfields, etc., manually. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239630 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple projects. CFEclipse is really coming along (nice job guys). On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll. Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going to develop Flex apps for a living then FlexBuilder is a must. Other wise, you can use another editor. I use PrimalScript routinely, and they will be providing full support for Flex2/AS3. I see Flex more as a way to build backend systems that would traditionally mirror the functionality of a tradtional client/server system. At least that is how I would use it. Administrative backends, private subscription areas, etc, places where the search engine is not going to tread anyway
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Cfeclipse doesn't require any version of CF to run, it is an IDE. It does support writing code for both CF5 and CFMX though. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 May 2006 17:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple projects. CFEclipse is really coming along (nice job guys). On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll. Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going to develop Flex apps for a living then FlexBuilder is a must. Other wise, you can use another editor. I use PrimalScript routinely, and they will be providing full support for Flex2/AS3. I see Flex more as a way
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Does the use of Flex require the use of CFEclipse or Eclipse at all? Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Cfeclipse doesn't require any version of CF to run, it is an IDE. It does support writing code for both CF5 and CFMX though. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 May 2006 17:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple projects. CFEclipse is really coming along (nice job guys). On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll. Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free'. Adobe is releasing the SDK for free, which means that you could build Flex apps with notepad if you were daring enough. FlexBuilder, which is built on top of Eclipse, will cost somewhere under $1000 ($999 probably ;). The apps you build (swfs) can be distributed royalty free, kinda like deploying a Visual Basic 6/FoxPro app. If you need advanced data services then you buy FDS. It appears that CFMX folks are going to have a distinct advantage with the data tier, as least intially. I think if you are going
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Flex has no specific IDE requirements. Flex Builder is an Eclipse based IDE (which works really nicely alongside CFEclipse). There are lots of good reasons to use Flex Builder to build your Flex 2 apps, but no, Flex Builder is not required. You can also compile Flex apps using Flex Data Services on the server, or just using the free Flex SDK. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Does the use of Flex require the use of CFEclipse or Eclipse at all? Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Cfeclipse doesn't require any version of CF to run, it is an IDE. It does support writing code for both CF5 and CFMX though. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 May 2006 17:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple projects. CFEclipse is really coming along (nice job guys). On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll. Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer The info you are looking at regarding Flex pricing appears to be for the 1.5version. Unless you buy into Flex Data Services, Flex 2 is essentially 'free
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yeah, you could use Flex 2 standard for free if you wanted. Use notepad (or whatever) to code your tags and then compile it with the free Flex SDK like Ben said. I've gotta say, some of the features of cfeclipse that Forta showed our local users group looked pretty handy though. ~Brad -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Flex has no specific IDE requirements. Flex Builder is an Eclipse based IDE (which works really nicely alongside CFEclipse). There are lots of good reasons to use Flex Builder to build your Flex 2 apps, but no, Flex Builder is not required. You can also compile Flex apps using Flex Data Services on the server, or just using the free Flex SDK. --- Ben ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239659 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
So, to clarify...if I *want* to use Flex Builder, then I have to use Eclipse and/or CFEclipse? I guess I'm trying to completely understand what is meant by Eclipsed based IDE... -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Flex has no specific IDE requirements. Flex Builder is an Eclipse based IDE (which works really nicely alongside CFEclipse). There are lots of good reasons to use Flex Builder to build your Flex 2 apps, but no, Flex Builder is not required. You can also compile Flex apps using Flex Data Services on the server, or just using the free Flex SDK. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Does the use of Flex require the use of CFEclipse or Eclipse at all? Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Cfeclipse doesn't require any version of CF to run, it is an IDE. It does support writing code for both CF5 and CFMX though. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 May 2006 17:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple projects. CFEclipse is really coming along (nice job guys). On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jeff, for the info and the updates! It's good to know that I won't have to sacrifice two legs and an arm to get into Flex...just an arm. :o) When you say that Flex Builder is built on top of Eclipse, do you mean Eclipse will be needed separately, or is it just the coding and style that is similar to Eclipse? And I think you're right, although it's a shame, that Flex will have to be relegated to the backroom of app development and not be used for the showrooom until search engine spider compatibility can somehow be addressed. It would be a shame to use such a powerful tool in such a limited roll
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
So, to clarify...if I *want* to use Flex Builder, then I have to use Eclipse and/or CFEclipse? I guess I'm trying to completely understand what is meant by Eclipsed based IDE... Eclipse is an IDE. FlexBuilder is a plugin for Eclipse. When you install FlexBuilder, you have the choice to install Eclipse as well, or just FlexBuilder if you already have Eclipse installed. So, yes, if you want to use FlexBuilder, you have to use Eclipse, since FlexBuilder is just a plugin for Eclipse. You may also install CFEclipse presumably, which is also an Eclipse plugin if I understand correctly. Of course, you can have as many IDEs installed on your computer as your disk can hold, so you might use FlexBuilder for Flex development, whatever you're currently using for CF development, Visual Studio for .NET development, etc. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239663 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
FlexBuilder is built on top of Eclipse. It can be used in two ways: 1) If you have Eclipse 3.1 already (perhaps for use for Java development, or CFEclipse, or whatever) then you can install FlexBuilder as a plug-in for that existing Eclipse. 2) If you don't already have Eclipse (or want a standalone FlexBuilder) then you can install FlexBuilder as a standalone application. This installs Eclipse 3.1 with all of the FlexBuilder stuff ready to use. Regardless of what option you select, you can also install CFEclipse so as to use Eclipse for CF development. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer So, to clarify...if I *want* to use Flex Builder, then I have to use Eclipse and/or CFEclipse? I guess I'm trying to completely understand what is meant by Eclipsed based IDE... -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Flex has no specific IDE requirements. Flex Builder is an Eclipse based IDE (which works really nicely alongside CFEclipse). There are lots of good reasons to use Flex Builder to build your Flex 2 apps, but no, Flex Builder is not required. You can also compile Flex apps using Flex Data Services on the server, or just using the free Flex SDK. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Does the use of Flex require the use of CFEclipse or Eclipse at all? Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Cfeclipse doesn't require any version of CF to run, it is an IDE. It does support writing code for both CF5 and CFMX though. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 May 2006 17:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find some time to download Eclipse and start learning how to configure it, etc. It's really pretty slick and there is a lot of stuff out there for it. I am a newbie myself, coming up to speed, using it for a couple
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
If you buy FlexBuilder 2 when it is released and install the standalone version, you won't have to know anything about Eclipse. You are isolated from Eclipse for the most part. As Ben stated, the IDE runs on top of Eclipse. If you are using Eclipse as your primary IDE, then you can opt to install FlexBuilder as a 'plugin'. If you take this route, you already know how Eclipse works, so it is a non-issue. You just download and install the plugin. Eclipse is the Java worlds answer to MS Visual Studio, except that it is free. People build plugins (or apps) that extend the functionality of the IDE. If you are developing Java apps, then the MyEclipse plugin is probably for you. Using CF? CFEclipse is the plugin you want. Need source control? You download Subversion and the Subclipse plugin so you can maintain version control. Want to check out Ruby on Rails, download the plugin for that. You integrate all of these plugins to customize your workspace to the way you work. VS2005 has the same idea, except in most case you are paying a lot of money for the tools. They do have open source initialtives, but you won't see nearly as many. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, to clarify...if I *want* to use Flex Builder, then I have to use Eclipse and/or CFEclipse? I guess I'm trying to completely understand what is meant by Eclipsed based IDE... ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239670 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks for the clarification, Dave... Boy...life after CF 4.5 is going to get *much* more complicated... ;o) And just think...I've never even written a query of a query! Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer So, to clarify...if I *want* to use Flex Builder, then I have to use Eclipse and/or CFEclipse? I guess I'm trying to completely understand what is meant by Eclipsed based IDE... Eclipse is an IDE. FlexBuilder is a plugin for Eclipse. When you install FlexBuilder, you have the choice to install Eclipse as well, or just FlexBuilder if you already have Eclipse installed. So, yes, if you want to use FlexBuilder, you have to use Eclipse, since FlexBuilder is just a plugin for Eclipse. You may also install CFEclipse presumably, which is also an Eclipse plugin if I understand correctly. Of course, you can have as many IDEs installed on your computer as your disk can hold, so you might use FlexBuilder for Flex development, whatever you're currently using for CF development, Visual Studio for .NET development, etc. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239676 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks for the clarification, Ben...got it! Rick -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder is built on top of Eclipse. It can be used in two ways: 1) If you have Eclipse 3.1 already (perhaps for use for Java development, or CFEclipse, or whatever) then you can install FlexBuilder as a plug-in for that existing Eclipse. 2) If you don't already have Eclipse (or want a standalone FlexBuilder) then you can install FlexBuilder as a standalone application. This installs Eclipse 3.1 with all of the FlexBuilder stuff ready to use. Regardless of what option you select, you can also install CFEclipse so as to use Eclipse for CF development. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer So, to clarify...if I *want* to use Flex Builder, then I have to use Eclipse and/or CFEclipse? I guess I'm trying to completely understand what is meant by Eclipsed based IDE... -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Flex has no specific IDE requirements. Flex Builder is an Eclipse based IDE (which works really nicely alongside CFEclipse). There are lots of good reasons to use Flex Builder to build your Flex 2 apps, but no, Flex Builder is not required. You can also compile Flex apps using Flex Data Services on the server, or just using the free Flex SDK. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Does the use of Flex require the use of CFEclipse or Eclipse at all? Rick -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Cfeclipse doesn't require any version of CF to run, it is an IDE. It does support writing code for both CF5 and CFMX though. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 May 2006 17:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer What is the minimum CF version required for CFEclipse? It's probably one of the latest versions, which brings me full circle in this discussion. I run my own CF server, and I'm still using the first version I ever bought...4.5. I've been considering upgrading, but spending the $600 (I thought) was a little much to simply upgrade to the latest version with no pressing project requirements for the capabilities...not to mention the headaches that always accompany an upgrade. Now I find out that to go from 4.5 to 7 will require a full purchase... $1300...so I'm starting to think that my time (without spending any additional money) might be better spent moving to ASP.NET 2.0, where the IDE (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express) is free and SQL Server Express is free (although I currently use MySQL, which is free, so no change monetarily there...and the biggest part is that I don't have to have anything but IIS 6.0 (also free) to run ASP.NET 2.0. So it's a question of whether to stick with CF, which I love, but is costly, especially when developing web apps for offices to use which require the office to purchase a copy of CF and makes my prices have to include the copy of CF and training in admin for them. It's simply a matter of money at this point. I'd much rather code CF, but I can learn aspx / C# if I have to. I learned CF, I can learn ASP... Once I learn it, coding it won't be a big deal. Sure CF is faster, but with good code reuse, it'll be minimum, I think. And, it's not like I'm in a horse race. I'm an independent developer, so I don't have corporate bosses breathing down my neck to finish something in two hours. And for that matter, Flex works with ASP.NET, also, so it's not like I'd be cutting Flex out of my future... I know this will be a blasphemous question for some on this list, but is there a good asp.net mailing list I can join to get some insight into what people are facing using asp.net? I don't like forums... This list has been one of the big reasons I've been able to be successful as a CF developer without any classroom training. I just read, work example apps, and ask a *lot* of questions...and people here have always been helpful. Just wish I knew enough to help answer questions... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer FlexBuilder comes packaged with Eclipse to run as a standalone app, but you can also choose to install the plugin, if you are already using Eclipse for CF/Java work, for instance. Then you just change 'perspectives'. You ought to find
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks for the explanation and info, Jeff. If you are developing Java apps, then the MyEclipse plugin is probably for you. No...I don't do anything with Java... VS2005 has the same idea, except in most case you are paying a lot of money for the tools. Although I'm most interested in Visual Web Designer 2005 Express, since it's designed for newbie's to that type of programming, I am getting a free copy of Visual Studio Standard for attending 3 online seminars about using ASP.NET for Cold Fusion Programmers... That, and IIS 6.0, seems to be all I'd need to work in the ASP.NET 2.0 world... I'm not too happy about that prospect, however... I've come far enough with CF to be useful in the world and make a good living. I'm not too thrilled with starting over with another language. Know of any ASP.Net Lists that I can lurk on? That's were I find out what it's really like to work with something...by listening to what the actual users are going through, not by reading promo materials. I did that with a css lists and quickly found out that I'm not touching total CSS design anytime soon...they take up all their time troubleshooting and how to make everything work with every browser out there...I'm really not interested in whether or not an Opera user can view my sites...until it becomes a dominant browser...talk about religious fanaticism... sheesh... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer If you buy FlexBuilder 2 when it is released and install the standalone version, you won't have to know anything about Eclipse. You are isolated from Eclipse for the most part. As Ben stated, the IDE runs on top of Eclipse. If you are using Eclipse as your primary IDE, then you can opt to install FlexBuilder as a 'plugin'. If you take this route, you already know how Eclipse works, so it is a non-issue. You just download and install the plugin. Eclipse is the Java worlds answer to MS Visual Studio, except that it is free. People build plugins (or apps) that extend the functionality of the IDE. If you are developing Java apps, then the MyEclipse plugin is probably for you. Using CF? CFEclipse is the plugin you want. Need source control? You download Subversion and the Subclipse plugin so you can maintain version control. Want to check out Ruby on Rails, download the plugin for that. You integrate all of these plugins to customize your workspace to the way you work. VS2005 has the same idea, except in most case you are paying a lot of money for the tools. They do have open source initialtives, but you won't see nearly as many. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239684 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? The development difference between CF 4 and CFMX6/7 is night and day IMHO. It's well worth the $1300 upgrade. In my opinion, even CF5 was a huge leap from 4 in terms of additional things that you can do. With 5, came the introduction of query of queries and udfs along with stability improvements. With CFMX and beyond, we're talking about flash remoting, pdf generation, access to additional java libraries that we've never had before without having to jump through hoops to get them. CFCs? A huge part of my development these days and I can't imagine having to go back to CF4/5 anymore. We still have a CF5 box here at work, I pretend it doesn't exist. Tho, sometimes for chuckles, I'll go surf some old projects of mine and groan about the old days. The company I currently work for has already moved on and we've already mentioned to the clients that we're recommending code upgrades if they want to move forward with us. We're 100% more than willing to work with them, it's up to them if they want to make the leap or not. Otherwise, we'll still continue to host/support the CF5 box until they're done clinging. If all you care about is the development process and you're not involved in hosting, why is this even a discussion? The trial edition of CFMX Server (Enterprise) is available for download and has a 2 IP restriction. That's more than enough to do development on a local box. That's free. The only thing that isn't free is the IDE that you're planning on using and as has been pointed out, there's plenty of them out there (including free ones). Do you actually do hosting? Is this the biggest concern you have? There's plenty of cheap hosting out there. Yeah, it's nice running your own box but man, don't tell me that it's not a bugger of a chore sometimes. I guess I just find it weird that it's so hard to justify an upgrade from CF4 to CFMX7, because in my opinion... there's no comparison and the new technology in CFMX is justified and easily sell-able to any client out there and will pay for itself if you knuckle down and get yourself familiar with the new stuff. You can even start learning now with the trial edition of CFMX and then decide for yourself if it's worth it. Anyway, you're so torn on this subject, yet there's a lot of answers out there if you look for them. Just offering a different, probably unwelcomed response. ~Todd -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the explanation and info, Jeff. If you are developing Java apps, then the MyEclipse plugin is probably for you. No...I don't do anything with Java... VS2005 has the same idea, except in most case you are paying a lot of money for the tools. Although I'm most interested in Visual Web Designer 2005 Express, since it's designed for newbie's to that type of programming, I am getting a free copy of Visual Studio Standard for attending 3 online seminars about using ASP.NET for Cold Fusion Programmers... That, and IIS 6.0, seems to be all I'd need to work in the ASP.NET 2.0 world... I'm not too happy about that prospect, however... I've come far enough with CF to be useful in the world and make a good living. I'm not too thrilled with starting over with another language. Know of any ASP.Net Lists that I can lurk on? That's were I find out what it's really like to work with something...by listening to what the actual users are going through, not by reading promo materials. I did that with a css lists and quickly found out that I'm not touching total CSS design anytime soon...they take up all their time troubleshooting and how to make everything work with every browser out there...I'm really not interested in whether or not an Opera user can view my sites...until it becomes a dominant browser...talk about religious fanaticism... sheesh... Rick -Original Message- From: Jeff Fleitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer If you buy FlexBuilder 2 when it is released and install the standalone version, you won't have to know anything about Eclipse. You are isolated from Eclipse for the most part. As Ben stated, the IDE runs on top of Eclipse. If you are using Eclipse as your primary IDE, then you can opt to install FlexBuilder as a 'plugin'. If you take this route, you already know how Eclipse works, so it is a non-issue. You just download and install the plugin. Eclipse is the Java worlds answer to MS Visual Studio, except that it is free. People build plugins (or apps) that extend the functionality of the IDE. If you are developing Java apps, then the MyEclipse
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? The development difference between CF 4 and CFMX6/7 is night and day IMHO. It's well worth the $1300 upgrade. In my opinion, even CF5 was a huge leap from 4 in terms of additional things that you can do. With 5, came the introduction of query of queries and udfs along with stability improvements. With CFMX and beyond, we're talking about flash remoting, pdf generation, the new cfforms and access to additional java libraries that we've never had before without having to jump through hoops to get them. CFCs? A huge part of my development these days and I can't imagine having to go back to CF4/5 anymore. We still have a CF5 box here at work, I pretend it doesn't exist. Tho, sometimes for chuckles, I'll go surf some old projects of mine and groan about the old days. The company I currently work for has already moved on and we've already mentioned to the clients that we're recommending code upgrades if they want to move forward with us. We're 100% more than willing to work with them, it's up to them if they want to make the leap or not. Otherwise, we'll still continue to host/support the CF5 box until they're done clinging. If all you care about is the development process and you're not involved in hosting, why is this even a discussion? The trial edition of CFMX Server (Enterprise) is available for download and has a 2 IP restriction. That's more than enough to do development on a local box. That's free. The only thing that isn't free is the IDE that you're planning on using and as has been pointed out, there's plenty of them out there (including free ones). Do you actually do hosting? Is this the biggest concern you have? There's plenty of cheap hosting out there. Yeah, it's nice running your own box but man, don't tell me that it's not a bugger of a chore sometimes. I guess I just find it weird that it's so hard to justify an upgrade from CF4 to CFMX7, because in my opinion... there's no comparison and the new technology in CFMX is justified and easily sell-able to any client out there and will pay for itself if you knuckle down and get yourself familiar with the new stuff. You can even start learning now with the trial edition of CFMX and then decide for yourself if it's worth it. Anyway, you're so torn on this subject, yet there's a lot of answers out there if you look for them. Just offering a different, probably unwelcomed response. ~Todd ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239693 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) On 5/5/06, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? The development difference between CF 4 and CFMX6/7 is night and day IMHO. It's well worth the $1300 upgrade. In my opinion, even CF5 was a huge leap from 4 in terms of additional things that you can do. With 5, came the introduction of query of queries and udfs along with stability improvements. With CFMX and beyond, we're talking about flash remoting, pdf generation, access to additional java libraries that we've never had before without having to jump through hoops to get them. CFCs? A huge part of my development these days and I can't imagine having to go back to CF4/5 anymore. (Isnip) -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239694 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Amen! ;) -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239696 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
There were a few custom tags for this that worked in CF4 and above. We use a in house built framework at one of the places I work and it was built on CF4. We use it on CF4 to CF6.1 boxes and honestly it does most everything any of our clients need done there. So I could see how someone could still be on 4.5.2 and getting by just fine although I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. On 5/5/06, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amen! ;) -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239709 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
cfdump Never used it...I'll have to look into that, Charlie...maybe that'll give me a push back toward CF! ;o) -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) On 5/5/06, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239713 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks for the feedback, Todd... I'm a little confuzzled about all this, too. ;o) I know there's a lot of functionality in the later versions after 4.5, but I'm not sure how many of them I really need. Mostly what I've read about on this list over the years since 4.5 has been new ways to do old things. No so much new functionality that is new in and of itself. I was drooling for Query of Query, but by the time it got here, I had learned to deal with queries in other ways. 4.5's stable...no problems there...fast enough for my small sites. And yes, I run my own servers for hosting, so I need to get the full server...I used to farm out my hosting, but got tired of dealing with unresponsive hosts that kept most of the money themselves, while I had to deal with the clients. I've begun to sell more office web apps, which, unless they host it here with me, require they purchase server hardware, OS, and, on top of that $1300 for CF...for the smaller offices I work with, that's a hard sell. It's a very small market here. I had about convinced myself to make the leap from 4.5, then Adobe decided that I had to pay $1300 while everyone else has to pay only about $600...just a little annoyed about that. The upgrade price and knowing that using asp.net I can build apps that can most likely run on clients' existing servers is a big push toward asp.net, not to mention all the free software they're giving away... Visual Web Developer Express 2005, Visual Studio Standard, Sql Server Express... Upgrade price and client cost to use my apps in-house...there's the two friction points. Rick -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? The development difference between CF 4 and CFMX6/7 is night and day IMHO. It's well worth the $1300 upgrade. In my opinion, even CF5 was a huge leap from 4 in terms of additional things that you can do. With 5, came the introduction of query of queries and udfs along with stability improvements. With CFMX and beyond, we're talking about flash remoting, pdf generation, access to additional java libraries that we've never had before without having to jump through hoops to get them. CFCs? A huge part of my development these days and I can't imagine having to go back to CF4/5 anymore. We still have a CF5 box here at work, I pretend it doesn't exist. Tho, sometimes for chuckles, I'll go surf some old projects of mine and groan about the old days. The company I currently work for has already moved on and we've already mentioned to the clients that we're recommending code upgrades if they want to move forward with us. We're 100% more than willing to work with them, it's up to them if they want to make the leap or not. Otherwise, we'll still continue to host/support the CF5 box until they're done clinging. If all you care about is the development process and you're not involved in hosting, why is this even a discussion? The trial edition of CFMX Server (Enterprise) is available for download and has a 2 IP restriction. That's more than enough to do development on a local box. That's free. The only thing that isn't free is the IDE that you're planning on using and as has been pointed out, there's plenty of them out there (including free ones). Do you actually do hosting? Is this the biggest concern you have? There's plenty of cheap hosting out there. Yeah, it's nice running your own box but man, don't tell me that it's not a bugger of a chore sometimes. I guess I just find it weird that it's so hard to justify an upgrade from CF4 to CFMX7, because in my opinion... there's no comparison and the new technology in CFMX is justified and easily sell-able to any client out there and will pay for itself if you knuckle down and get yourself familiar with the new stuff. You can even start learning now with the trial edition of CFMX and then decide for yourself if it's worth it. Anyway, you're so torn on this subject, yet there's a lot of answers out there if you look for them. Just offering a different, probably unwelcomed response. ~Todd -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 2:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the explanation and info, Jeff. If you are developing Java apps, then the MyEclipse plugin is probably for you. No...I don't do anything with Java... VS2005 has the same idea, except in most case you are paying a lot of money for the tools. Although I'm most interested in Visual Web Designer 2005 Express, since it's designed for newbie's to that type of programming, I am getting a free copy of Visual Studio
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. I definitely agree, which is why I'm confuzzled (to quote Todd) about which direction to go...CF or ASP.NET...both are strong, it seems. ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons...Not looking for a free ride by any means, but also don't like being stiffed by Adobe on the upgrade price after previously owning a full edition of CF. I had to sacrifice to get that first $1300 edition of CF and don't like being told I have to pay full price again, even now when I can afford it much more easily. Adobe's never had a policy like that on any full version software that I know of...and I've used a lot of theirs for years... MS is willing to give me a lot of software to get me in the fold... Rick -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer There were a few custom tags for this that worked in CF4 and above. We use a in house built framework at one of the places I work and it was built on CF4. We use it on CF4 to CF6.1 boxes and honestly it does most everything any of our clients need done there. So I could see how someone could still be on 4.5.2 and getting by just fine although I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. On 5/5/06, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amen! ;) -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239720 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I had about convinced myself to make the leap from 4.5, then Adobe decided that I had to pay $1300 while everyone else has to pay only about $600...just a little annoyed about that. Just to be this in perspective, had you had upgraded some of the versions in between it would have been simpler to upgrade now. Most companies have upgrade policies and prices for a limited list of prior versions (usually just a few prior and a few years). CF4.5 (which came out in 1999 I believe) is 4 or 5 versions back, and even more years back. Most companies do not provide upgrade plans for software that far back (and software that is so old that it is no longer supported), that really is the norm. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the feedback, Todd... I'm a little confuzzled about all this, too. ;o) I know there's a lot of functionality in the later versions after 4.5, but I'm not sure how many of them I really need. Mostly what I've read about on this list over the years since 4.5 has been new ways to do old things. No so much new functionality that is new in and of itself. I was drooling for Query of Query, but by the time it got here, I had learned to deal with queries in other ways. 4.5's stable...no problems there...fast enough for my small sites. And yes, I run my own servers for hosting, so I need to get the full server...I used to farm out my hosting, but got tired of dealing with unresponsive hosts that kept most of the money themselves, while I had to deal with the clients. I've begun to sell more office web apps, which, unless they host it here with me, require they purchase server hardware, OS, and, on top of that $1300 for CF...for the smaller offices I work with, that's a hard sell. It's a very small market here. I had about convinced myself to make the leap from 4.5, then Adobe decided that I had to pay $1300 while everyone else has to pay only about $600...just a little annoyed about that. The upgrade price and knowing that using asp.net I can build apps that can most likely run on clients' existing servers is a big push toward asp.net, not to mention all the free software they're giving away... Visual Web Developer Express 2005, Visual Studio Standard, Sql Server Express... Upgrade price and client cost to use my apps in-house...there's the two friction points. Rick -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? The development difference between CF 4 and CFMX6/7 is night and day IMHO. It's well worth the $1300 upgrade. In my opinion, even CF5 was a huge leap from 4 in terms of additional things that you can do. With 5, came the introduction of query of queries and udfs along with stability improvements. With CFMX and beyond, we're talking about flash remoting, pdf generation, access to additional java libraries that we've never had before without having to jump through hoops to get them. CFCs? A huge part of my development these days and I can't imagine having to go back to CF4/5 anymore. We still have a CF5 box here at work, I pretend it doesn't exist. Tho, sometimes for chuckles, I'll go surf some old projects of mine and groan about the old days. The company I currently work for has already moved on and we've already mentioned to the clients that we're recommending code upgrades if they want to move forward with us. We're 100% more than willing to work with them, it's up to them if they want to make the leap or not. Otherwise, we'll still continue to host/support the CF5 box until they're done clinging. If all you care about is the development process and you're not involved in hosting, why is this even a discussion? The trial edition of CFMX Server (Enterprise) is available for download and has a 2 IP restriction. That's more than enough to do development on a local box. That's free. The only thing that isn't free is the IDE that you're planning on using and as has been pointed out, there's plenty of them out there (including free ones). Do you actually do hosting? Is this the biggest concern you have? There's plenty of cheap hosting out there. Yeah, it's nice running your own box but man, don't tell me that it's not a bugger of a chore sometimes. I guess I just find it weird that it's so hard to justify an upgrade from CF4 to CFMX7, because in my opinion... there's no comparison and the new technology in CFMX is justified and easily sell-able to any client out there and will pay for itself if you knuckle down and get yourself familiar with the new stuff. You
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
We should just call this the Rick agonizes over the decision to move away from the chisel and stone series. Brought to you monthly by HoF. And Adobe CFMX7. Just kidding, Rick! :) Rick Faircloth wrote: I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. I definitely agree, which is why I'm confuzzled (to quote Todd) about which direction to go...CF or ASP.NET...both are strong, it seems. ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons...Not looking for a free ride by any means, but also don't like being stiffed by Adobe on the upgrade price after previously owning a full edition of CF. I had to sacrifice to get that first $1300 edition of CF and don't like being told I have to pay full price again, even now when I can afford it much more easily. Adobe's never had a policy like that on any full version software that I know of...and I've used a lot of theirs for years... MS is willing to give me a lot of software to get me in the fold... Rick -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer There were a few custom tags for this that worked in CF4 and above. We use a in house built framework at one of the places I work and it was built on CF4. We use it on CF4 to CF6.1 boxes and honestly it does most everything any of our clients need done there. So I could see how someone could still be on 4.5.2 and getting by just fine although I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. On 5/5/06, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amen! ;) -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239722 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I know it may be the norm, but I still don't have to like it...it's not like it was a $75 piece of software. And I've learned from multiple upgrades in prior years of other software and systems that there're always problems with upgrading. I've witnessed them on this list. I just haven't had a compelling reason to upgrade...I've learned to live without new bells and whistles when I have a stable, productive, money-making setup. If it ain't broke, don't upgrade... Rick -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 5:12 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I had about convinced myself to make the leap from 4.5, then Adobe decided that I had to pay $1300 while everyone else has to pay only about $600...just a little annoyed about that. Just to be this in perspective, had you had upgraded some of the versions in between it would have been simpler to upgrade now. Most companies have upgrade policies and prices for a limited list of prior versions (usually just a few prior and a few years). CF4.5 (which came out in 1999 I believe) is 4 or 5 versions back, and even more years back. Most companies do not provide upgrade plans for software that far back (and software that is so old that it is no longer supported), that really is the norm. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Thanks for the feedback, Todd... I'm a little confuzzled about all this, too. ;o) I know there's a lot of functionality in the later versions after 4.5, but I'm not sure how many of them I really need. Mostly what I've read about on this list over the years since 4.5 has been new ways to do old things. No so much new functionality that is new in and of itself. I was drooling for Query of Query, but by the time it got here, I had learned to deal with queries in other ways. 4.5's stable...no problems there...fast enough for my small sites. And yes, I run my own servers for hosting, so I need to get the full server...I used to farm out my hosting, but got tired of dealing with unresponsive hosts that kept most of the money themselves, while I had to deal with the clients. I've begun to sell more office web apps, which, unless they host it here with me, require they purchase server hardware, OS, and, on top of that $1300 for CF...for the smaller offices I work with, that's a hard sell. It's a very small market here. I had about convinced myself to make the leap from 4.5, then Adobe decided that I had to pay $1300 while everyone else has to pay only about $600...just a little annoyed about that. The upgrade price and knowing that using asp.net I can build apps that can most likely run on clients' existing servers is a big push toward asp.net, not to mention all the free software they're giving away... Visual Web Developer Express 2005, Visual Studio Standard, Sql Server Express... Upgrade price and client cost to use my apps in-house...there's the two friction points. Rick -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Rick, I have to say I'm a little confuzzled about all this. I mean, you're in CF4.5 now and ... you're claiming that $1300 is a lot to cough up for the CFMX server and that you've made plenty of money with CF4.5, etc. What happened? The development difference between CF 4 and CFMX6/7 is night and day IMHO. It's well worth the $1300 upgrade. In my opinion, even CF5 was a huge leap from 4 in terms of additional things that you can do. With 5, came the introduction of query of queries and udfs along with stability improvements. With CFMX and beyond, we're talking about flash remoting, pdf generation, access to additional java libraries that we've never had before without having to jump through hoops to get them. CFCs? A huge part of my development these days and I can't imagine having to go back to CF4/5 anymore. We still have a CF5 box here at work, I pretend it doesn't exist. Tho, sometimes for chuckles, I'll go surf some old projects of mine and groan about the old days. The company I currently work for has already moved on and we've already mentioned to the clients that we're recommending code upgrades if they want to move forward with us. We're 100% more than willing to work with them, it's up to them if they want to make the leap or not. Otherwise, we'll still continue to host/support the CF5 box until they're done clinging. If all you care about is the development process and you're not involved in hosting, why is this even a discussion? The trial edition of CFMX Server (Enterprise) is available for download and has a 2 IP restriction. That's more than enough to do development on a local box. That's free. The only thing that isn't free is the IDE that you're
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Thanks! I'll finally have something named after me! Little ole me! I want to thank all my fans, friends, etc... ;o) -Original Message- From: Crow T. Robot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 5:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer We should just call this the Rick agonizes over the decision to move away from the chisel and stone series. Brought to you monthly by HoF. And Adobe CFMX7. Just kidding, Rick! :) Rick Faircloth wrote: I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. I definitely agree, which is why I'm confuzzled (to quote Todd) about which direction to go...CF or ASP.NET...both are strong, it seems. ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons...Not looking for a free ride by any means, but also don't like being stiffed by Adobe on the upgrade price after previously owning a full edition of CF. I had to sacrifice to get that first $1300 edition of CF and don't like being told I have to pay full price again, even now when I can afford it much more easily. Adobe's never had a policy like that on any full version software that I know of...and I've used a lot of theirs for years... MS is willing to give me a lot of software to get me in the fold... Rick -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer There were a few custom tags for this that worked in CF4 and above. We use a in house built framework at one of the places I work and it was built on CF4. We use it on CF4 to CF6.1 boxes and honestly it does most everything any of our clients need done there. So I could see how someone could still be on 4.5.2 and getting by just fine although I think that not learning newer versions or other technologies is just going to end up hurting someone in the long run even if they are self-employed. On 5/5/06, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amen! ;) -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer cfdump alone is worth $1300 :) ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239724 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I'd learn something other than CF, knowing 4.5.2 well enough to me would be good enough knowledge to pick up a later version of CFM but it helps none or very little to learn some other language. The more tools in your box, the better off you are. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239726 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yep, learn ASP.net 2.0, php, python, or ruby. Learning any of these will help expand your ideas on how to approach different problems. CF is great, but it's not always the best solution. On 5/5/06, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd learn something other than CF, knowing 4.5.2 well enough to me would be good enough knowledge to pick up a later version of CFM but it helps none or very little to learn some other language. The more tools in your box, the better off you are. On 5/5/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239730 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I know it may be the norm, but I still don't have to like it...it's not like it was a $75 piece of software. And I've learned from multiple upgrades in prior years of other software and systems that there're always problems with upgrading. I've witnessed them on this list. I just haven't had a compelling reason to upgrade...I've learned to live without new bells and whistles when I have a stable, productive, money-making setup. If it ain't broke, don't upgrade... I really don't know what you expect (or want) to hear. If CF 4.5.1 SP2 does everything you need it to do, and you can't imagine why you'd want to upgrade, don't upgrade. If you really can't justify paying for CFMX 7, don't buy it. Sure, upgrades can cause problems. In exchange, they provide new functionality. You have to decide whether the new functionality is something you want bad enough to be willing to work through upgrade hiccups. As for the price, would you really trust your business to a $75 piece of software? You've presumably been using CF 4.5.1 since it came out, which is about seven years ago. Do you think that was a worthwhile investment? Did it pay for itself? If so, why wouldn't you expect CFMX 7 to do likewise? Because, that's all that really matters. It doesn't matter whether Adobe offers an upgrade price for a seven-year-old product, it doesn't matter whether it's $75 or $7500 or whatever - the only thing that matters is return on investment. You're asking about ASP.NET because it's free. Is your time free? Because it's almost certainly going to cost you more to learn another environment than it will to buy CFMX 7 and learn its new features. If you want to learn ASP.NET and C#, more power to you. It's good to learn new things, and there are lots of things that you can do with .NET. But if your justification for doing so is because it's free and CF isn't, you're devaluing the most important asset you have - your time. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239732 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... And, likewise, CFMX 7 has lots of functionality that ASP.NET doesn't have. For the life of me, I can't find the print to PDF option in ASP.NET. I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons...Not looking for a free ride by any means, but also don't like being stiffed by Adobe on the upgrade price after previously owning a full edition of CF. I had to sacrifice to get that first $1300 edition of CF and don't like being told I have to pay full price again, even now when I can afford it much more easily. Adobe's never had a policy like that on any full version software that I know of...and I've used a lot of theirs for years... It's SEVEN YEARS OLD! Most software companies aren't even in business that long! You know, I can't get upgrade pricing from Microsoft Word for Windows 2.0 to the latest version either! Damn the injustice! Look, either it's worth your money or it isn't. You really need to get over the idea that you're being stiffed. If it's not worth buying, don't buy it. If it is - if you will make money as a result - then it makes sense to buy it. I don't think you're going to get any more resolution from this thread, though, because you're essentially just saying the same thing over and over again. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but if you do so you should expect to hear the same answers each time. MS is willing to give me a lot of software to get me in the fold... Why do you think they're so willing to do this? Why do they need to do this to succeed? Why can't every software vendor take that approach? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239733 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
No, free isn't the main consideration, but it certainly helps. Not just the cost to me, but also to clients who want to deploy my apps in-house...I can save them $1300 everytime they want to buy an app. If I replicate the app completely and don't have to change it at all for each customer and allow them to customize it at will, and they have a basic server, hardware and software from MS, which they must have to get any use from the server anyway, then they only have to pay for my app to use it. No extra $1300 investment. I can sell a replicated app for $50 a pop, and still make money with ASP.NET. With CF, I've got to charge $1350 to make $50 and watch sales dry up because the cost is too high. That's the biggest concern. And the jump from static sites to dynamic sites, automated use of email, etc, that I went to when I first got into CF 4.5 was a FAR greater jump than from CF 4.5 to CFMX 7. As far as I can tell, it's just more efficient ways to do the same things that I do now. The basics, create dynamic apps that users can can deploy to add, update, delete, and report information is still the same basic functionality. I can create dynamic email newsletter systems, and many other things that I've dreamed up, but not yet had time to work on. No, I don't see any reason to upgrade to simply better ways to accomplish the same functionality. As far as trusting software, cost doesn't determine value. When I moved from Access, which did cost me money, to MySQL a few years ago, which is completely free, I made a good investment in software...and it cost me less to do so. So just because something costs more doesn't make it better. No, I don't want to learn ASP.NET 2.0 and C#, but it seems that for the future, for the reasons I've stated above, it will provide greater ROI...and that's what we're all after. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 11:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I know it may be the norm, but I still don't have to like it...it's not like it was a $75 piece of software. And I've learned from multiple upgrades in prior years of other software and systems that there're always problems with upgrading. I've witnessed them on this list. I just haven't had a compelling reason to upgrade...I've learned to live without new bells and whistles when I have a stable, productive, money-making setup. If it ain't broke, don't upgrade... I really don't know what you expect (or want) to hear. If CF 4.5.1 SP2 does everything you need it to do, and you can't imagine why you'd want to upgrade, don't upgrade. If you really can't justify paying for CFMX 7, don't buy it. Sure, upgrades can cause problems. In exchange, they provide new functionality. You have to decide whether the new functionality is something you want bad enough to be willing to work through upgrade hiccups. As for the price, would you really trust your business to a $75 piece of software? You've presumably been using CF 4.5.1 since it came out, which is about seven years ago. Do you think that was a worthwhile investment? Did it pay for itself? If so, why wouldn't you expect CFMX 7 to do likewise? Because, that's all that really matters. It doesn't matter whether Adobe offers an upgrade price for a seven-year-old product, it doesn't matter whether it's $75 or $7500 or whatever - the only thing that matters is return on investment. You're asking about ASP.NET because it's free. Is your time free? Because it's almost certainly going to cost you more to learn another environment than it will to buy CFMX 7 and learn its new features. If you want to learn ASP.NET and C#, more power to you. It's good to learn new things, and there are lots of things that you can do with .NET. But if your justification for doing so is because it's free and CF isn't, you're devaluing the most important asset you have - your time. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239734 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
The main reason that I can see that they give away software is for the same reason that I give away some of my services... to expose people to them and gain paying customers. I've considered giving away websites, just to gain the hosting. They did the same thing with IE...give it away and it becomes dominant...provided it's good enough to do the job. And, frankly, I don't care if the software is 7 years old. They got $1300 7 years ago or so, and that's a lot more than they've gotten from someone who hasn't bought anything before. I just feel there should be some consideration for any previous customer's investment. Even if on a sliding scale based on years of age of product. They're basically saying CF 4.5 is worth nothing now...I don't agree. It seems that just sticking with one server on CF 4.5 will continue for as long as it's of value...but the second server will be ASP.NET 2.0...from there I can go into Flex 2.0, also. Wouldn't be surprised if MS didn't develop a Flex Builder tool that they give away for ASP.NET developers while Adobe wants $1000 for theirs... I don't mind companies making money. I'm in business for that. But I do reward long-time customer loyalty. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 11:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer ASP.NET 2.0...harder to code, I think, but seems to have functions that CF 7 doesn't. All the software from OS, server (IIS 6), Visual Web Developer, all from the same company and integrated in approach... And, likewise, CFMX 7 has lots of functionality that ASP.NET doesn't have. For the life of me, I can't find the print to PDF option in ASP.NET. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239735 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Adrian...(or others who know) Can you use Visual Web Developer 2005 Express to develop pages other than .aspx? Can .cfm pages be created using it doing hand coding? Rick -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 2:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I've been using Visual Web Dev(2005 Express, is there another version?) lately. One thing to keep in mind is that it's for .Net 2.0 and from the info I've found on the web, you can't make it only play with 1.0 or 1.1. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239502 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
OpenLaszlo has an IDE for visual editing. It looks interesting, haven't played with it much. Flex has a well integrated visual editor as well. They're both sorta left of the HTML experience though... I'm guessing VWD stands for Visual Web Design, and thus this comment. :)enny On 5/4/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to be able to use VWD to develop pages visually, but not use the components...I can code the formfields, etc., manually. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239585 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I've been using Visual Web Dev(2005 Express, is there another version?) lately. One thing to keep in mind is that it's for .Net 2.0 and from the info I've found on the web, you can't make it only play with 1.0 or 1.1. Not a big deal but worth noting if you're building something for a 1.0/1.1 environment. As for your CF problem, give MM/Adobe a call or drop them an email, I'm sure they'll work out a deal to get you up to 7. Heck, what have they got to lose?! There's also BlueDragon, I'm suprised no one has mentioned that so far in the thread. Adrian -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 23:35 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? That's pretty much what I've done...4.5 is the first and only version of CF I've ever owned and it's done everything I've needed, and more than most clients could even fathom it could be used for. However, I do know that things, they are a changin' and I don't want to get too far behind technologically. Besides, I do get bored and like to get into new stuff. :o) Visual Web Developer seems to be a nice tool (I say that only after using a trial version) if someone is using ASP.NET...it integrates nicely. I may change that tune after using it more, however. I tried (the 4th time) to use Dreamweaver, but it was lacking as a visual design tool. I didn't like the price...too high for what I got out of it, and didn't like working with CF components, anyway. But if I migrate to coding ASP.NET, I'll need to start with components, then move on into more hand coding as I did when starting with CF. I let the components do the work at first, then study what they've done, then write it myself so I can get finer control and more functionality from the code. CF has been good to me and I'll keep using it, at least for awhile. But in the meantime, I'll be giving ASP.NET, Visual Web Developer, and probably SQL Server Express and thorough shakedown. Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239359 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Nevermind Dave, go back to sleep. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 21:20 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Now that is not what I said is it. That is certainly the implication of your statement. I am simply saying, some people will do and do do it anyway. You can say it's wrong till the cows come come, but that wont stop people doing it. So why did you mention it in the first place? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239362 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I'd only be interested in working with 2.0 anyway. I'd want to start with the latest version of everything. There is Visual Web Dev 2005 Standard and Pro...no...wait... that Visual Studio...you're right. The Web Dev version is only Express, it seems. Can Visual Web Dev Express 2005 be used to create anything but asp.net pages? Can it be used to create cfm pages? Rick -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 2:56 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I've been using Visual Web Dev(2005 Express, is there another version?) lately. One thing to keep in mind is that it's for .Net 2.0 and from the info I've found on the web, you can't make it only play with 1.0 or 1.1. Not a big deal but worth noting if you're building something for a 1.0/1.1 environment. As for your CF problem, give MM/Adobe a call or drop them an email, I'm sure they'll work out a deal to get you up to 7. Heck, what have they got to lose?! There's also BlueDragon, I'm suprised no one has mentioned that so far in the thread. Adrian -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 23:35 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? That's pretty much what I've done...4.5 is the first and only version of CF I've ever owned and it's done everything I've needed, and more than most clients could even fathom it could be used for. However, I do know that things, they are a changin' and I don't want to get too far behind technologically. Besides, I do get bored and like to get into new stuff. :o) Visual Web Developer seems to be a nice tool (I say that only after using a trial version) if someone is using ASP.NET...it integrates nicely. I may change that tune after using it more, however. I tried (the 4th time) to use Dreamweaver, but it was lacking as a visual design tool. I didn't like the price...too high for what I got out of it, and didn't like working with CF components, anyway. But if I migrate to coding ASP.NET, I'll need to start with components, then move on into more hand coding as I did when starting with CF. I let the components do the work at first, then study what they've done, then write it myself so I can get finer control and more functionality from the code. CF has been good to me and I'll keep using it, at least for awhile. But in the meantime, I'll be giving ASP.NET, Visual Web Developer, and probably SQL Server Express and thorough shakedown. Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239364 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
From an administration standpoint, 4.5.1 is a nightmare compared to MX. Sandboxes are a good thing. You can secure MX much better than 4.5. -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:35 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer That's pretty much what I've done...4.5 is the first and only version of CF I've ever owned and it's done everything I've needed, and more than most clients could even fathom it could be used for. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239391 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Nevermind Dave, go back to sleep. That's a great idea! And while I'm asleep, I'll dream of a world where everyone understands English. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239395 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Go for it. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 May 2006 17:18 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Nevermind Dave, go back to sleep. That's a great idea! And while I'm asleep, I'll dream of a world where everyone understands English. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239396 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
But you've still got to have those servers (hardware and software) if you're Cold Fusion application becomes wildly successful, on top of the money you have to spend on an MS solution. Yes, but hardware and free software is cheaper than hardware and non-free software. In addition, you can scale up in the Unix world (especially with Solaris), while in Windows you can't as much (although this is changing somewhat). Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239279 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Hi, Dave... Not quite sure I understand your response...it seems like we're saying the same thing... Scenario 1: Server Hardware Windows Server OS Cold Fusion Server Build app...wildly successful...setup more servers as above, paying for server hardware, server OS, and CF Server. i.e., server hardware, server OS, + $1300 Scenario 2: Server Hardware Windows Server OS ASP.NET 2.0 (Free) Build app...wildly successful...setup more servers as above, paying for server hardware, server OS, ASP.Net 2.0 is still free, so I've saved $1300 per server... Is that whay you're saying? And...does my perspective seem accurate? One reason the cost of CF is of concern is that I'm building more web software applications. And if each client has to add $1300 to the cost of my app to run it in-house, then that hurts my ability to sell the app. With ASP.NET, I don't have that cost...right? Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer But you've still got to have those servers (hardware and software) if you're Cold Fusion application becomes wildly successful, on top of the money you have to spend on an MS solution. Yes, but hardware and free software is cheaper than hardware and non-free software. In addition, you can scale up in the Unix world (especially with Solaris), while in Windows you can't as much (although this is changing somewhat). ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239281 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
An SPLA make sMicrosoft products more affordable. And for local office/dev environment, the microsoft action pack is unbeatable. All the software u need for only £299 yearly Russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 17:16 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer But you've still got to have those servers (hardware and software) if you're Cold Fusion application becomes wildly successful, on top of the money you have to spend on an MS solution. Yes, but hardware and free software is cheaper than hardware and non-free software. In addition, you can scale up in the Unix world (especially with Solaris), while in Windows you can't as much (although this is changing somewhat). Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239282 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
u can install it all on your dev/testing servers and office workstations, presuming they are something to do with development. -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 17:46 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I thought the licensing for the action pack did not allow people to run the software beyond evaluation/demo use. On 5/2/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An SPLA make sMicrosoft products more affordable. And for local office/dev environment, the microsoft action pack is unbeatable. All the software u need for only £299 yearly Russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 17:16 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer But you've still got to have those servers (hardware and software) if you're Cold Fusion application becomes wildly successful, on top of the money you have to spend on an MS solution. Yes, but hardware and free software is cheaper than hardware and non-free software. In addition, you can scale up in the Unix world (especially with Solaris), while in Windows you can't as much (although this is changing somewhat). Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239291 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yes well at the end of the day, unless someone from MS visits every subscriber, they dunno what your using it for do they. And how many end users can't afford the software off the shelf anyway and use pirate copies. So paying for action pack is certainly better than doing that, at least you have legit software, and if youre a developer (which we are on this list) then your within the terms of licensing agremeent. Almost every MSDE/Action Pack subscriber I know uses their subscription to kit out their entire office with XP, office, etc etc. russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 17:50 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer An SPLA make sMicrosoft products more affordable. Free is cheaper than cheap. And for local office/dev environment, the microsoft action pack is unbeatable. All the software u need for only £299 yearly Yes, but most end users are not eligible for MS Action Pack. Sure, anyone can sign up for it, but the Action Pack licensing requirements are pretty clear. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239292 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yeah but that helps someone like Rick none who keeps mentioning the added cost of things for his clients. On 5/2/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: u can install it all on your dev/testing servers and office workstations, presuming they are something to do with development. -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 17:46 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I thought the licensing for the action pack did not allow people to run the software beyond evaluation/demo use. On 5/2/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An SPLA make sMicrosoft products more affordable. And for local office/dev environment, the microsoft action pack is unbeatable. All the software u need for only £299 yearly Russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 17:16 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer But you've still got to have those servers (hardware and software) if you're Cold Fusion application becomes wildly successful, on top of the money you have to spend on an MS solution. Yes, but hardware and free software is cheaper than hardware and non-free software. In addition, you can scale up in the Unix world (especially with Solaris), while in Windows you can't as much (although this is changing somewhat). Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239294 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Yes well at the end of the day, unless someone from MS visits every subscriber, they dunno what your using it for do they. And how many end users can't afford the software off the shelf anyway and use pirate copies. So paying for action pack is certainly better than doing that, at least you have legit software, and if you're a developer (which we are on this list) then your within the terms of licensing agremeent. Almost every MSDE/Action Pack subscriber I know uses their subscription to kit out their entire office with XP, office, etc etc. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this, but are you really advocating that everyone just go ahead and violate their software licenses? Because at the end of the day, if you're violating the license, you don't have legit software. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239298 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Was just about to sign up when I spotted: Offer good in the United States and Canada only through June 30, 2006, while supplies last. :O( -Original Message- From: Nathan Strutz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 May 2006 17:10 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Well, there's an express version of the IDE that's free, and there are ways to score the standard edition for free (*cough* www.learn2asp.net, sign up, click 3 download buttons *cough* don't have to actually download them *cough*). ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239317 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I agree with Matthew, it's nice to see the ASP.NET coding compared to CF...although it's still hard to grasp the ASP.NET coding because it takes a different approach to data interaction and, therefore, requires much more coding and understanding than a simple CF query. I'd probably understand it a lot better if I had used a CF framework and moved beyond CF 4.5.2... :oP Rick -Original Message- From: Plunkett, Matthew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Adam, I've been watching the recorded webcasts you did at: http://www.learn2asp.net/CF/Campaign.aspx They are amazing. Thanks very much for doing this for the community. I'm sure your training courses are also great, but they're not in the cards for me at the moment. -Original Message- From: Adam Churvis Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer snip Yes, there is (C# ASP.NET 2.0 for ColdFusion Developers): http://www.productivityenhancement.com/training/Itinerary.cfm?coursecode=CSH ARP It's an intensive training course, but it would give you *exactly* what you need. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX 7 Developer BlueDragon Alliance Founding Committee ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239321 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I hear what you're saying about the programming part...however, most of the sites I build are fairly simple...add, update, delete, report. Once I've grasped how to code that in ASP.NET, I can do 90% of the work I do. And according to the ASP.NET Programming for Cold Fusion Programmers, I can do all of that with Visual Web Designer or Visual Studio without *any* programming. Although, I prefer to not use components, but rather write my own code, I got started in CF by using components, then when the demands of the code went beyond what I could do in components, I learned to write everything myself. And...it seems, based on the description of ASP.Net 2.0, that it achieves interaction with data that's more like FLEX...but now I'm speaking way out of my comfort zone. I just saw a model of database interaction based on objects and methods and not form submission and page refreshing or action pages...seemed interesting. I haven't abandoned CF by any means, but with no upgrade price break, and all the free software, etc, from MS, Adobe's making it tough to stick with them... Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Not quite sure I understand your response...it seems like we're saying the same thing... Scenario 1: Server Hardware Windows Server OS Cold Fusion Server Build app...wildly successful...setup more servers as above, paying for server hardware, server OS, and CF Server. i.e., server hardware, server OS, + $1300 Scenario 2: Server Hardware Windows Server OS ASP.NET 2.0 (Free) Build app...wildly successful...setup more servers as above, paying for server hardware, server OS, ASP.Net 2.0 is still free, so I've saved $1300 per server... All I'm saying is, while ASP.NET itself is free, Windows is not. One way or the other, Bill gets paid. One reason the cost of CF is of concern is that I'm building more web software applications. And if each client has to add $1300 to the cost of my app to run it in-house, then that hurts my ability to sell the app. With ASP.NET, I don't have that cost...right? Sure, if your time is free. For most programming projects, labor costs are far more expensive than everything else. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239323 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Now that is not what I said is it. I am simply saying, some people will do and do do it anyway. You can say it's wrong till the cows come come, but that wont stop people doing it. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 May 2006 19:06 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer Yes well at the end of the day, unless someone from MS visits every subscriber, they dunno what your using it for do they. And how many end users can't afford the software off the shelf anyway and use pirate copies. So paying for action pack is certainly better than doing that, at least you have legit software, and if you're a developer (which we are on this list) then your within the terms of licensing agremeent. Almost every MSDE/Action Pack subscriber I know uses their subscription to kit out their entire office with XP, office, etc etc. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this, but are you really advocating that everyone just go ahead and violate their software licenses? Because at the end of the day, if you're violating the license, you don't have legit software. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239324 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Now that is not what I said is it. That is certainly the implication of your statement. I am simply saying, some people will do and do do it anyway. You can say it's wrong till the cows come come, but that wont stop people doing it. So why did you mention it in the first place? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239325 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
I hear what you're saying about the programming part...however, most of the sites I build are fairly simple...add, update, delete, report. Once I've grasped how to code that in ASP.NET, I can do 90% of the work I do. And according to the ASP.NET Programming for Cold Fusion Programmers, I can do all of that with Visual Web Designer or Visual Studio without *any* programming. Although, I prefer to not use components, but rather write my own code, I got started in CF by using components, then when the demands of the code went beyond what I could do in components, I learned to write everything myself. Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? And...it seems, based on the description of ASP.Net 2.0, that it achieves interaction with data that's more like FLEX...but now I'm speaking way out of my comfort zone. I just saw a model of database interaction based on objects and methods and not form submission and page refreshing or action pages...seemed interesting. Not quite. The interaction is still page-based, although the Visual Studio IDE provides the illusion that it isn't. Flex applications on the other hand, truly are event-driven and work like desktop applications. I haven't abandoned CF by any means, but with no upgrade price break, and all the free software, etc, from MS, Adobe's making it tough to stick with them... There's no such thing as a free lunch. Using ASP.NET locks you into the Windows world. This severely limits your deployment options. If that's not a problem for you, ASP.NET may be quite appealing, but you may end up paying a price down the road as a result. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239330 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? That's pretty much what I've done...4.5 is the first and only version of CF I've ever owned and it's done everything I've needed, and more than most clients could even fathom it could be used for. However, I do know that things, they are a changin' and I don't want to get too far behind technologically. Besides, I do get bored and like to get into new stuff. :o) Visual Web Developer seems to be a nice tool (I say that only after using a trial version) if someone is using ASP.NET...it integrates nicely. I may change that tune after using it more, however. I tried (the 4th time) to use Dreamweaver, but it was lacking as a visual design tool. I didn't like the price...too high for what I got out of it, and didn't like working with CF components, anyway. But if I migrate to coding ASP.NET, I'll need to start with components, then move on into more hand coding as I did when starting with CF. I let the components do the work at first, then study what they've done, then write it myself so I can get finer control and more functionality from the code. CF has been good to me and I'll keep using it, at least for awhile. But in the meantime, I'll be giving ASP.NET, Visual Web Developer, and probably SQL Server Express and thorough shakedown. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:35 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I hear what you're saying about the programming part...however, most of the sites I build are fairly simple...add, update, delete, report. Once I've grasped how to code that in ASP.NET, I can do 90% of the work I do. And according to the ASP.NET Programming for Cold Fusion Programmers, I can do all of that with Visual Web Designer or Visual Studio without *any* programming. Although, I prefer to not use components, but rather write my own code, I got started in CF by using components, then when the demands of the code went beyond what I could do in components, I learned to write everything myself. Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? And...it seems, based on the description of ASP.Net 2.0, that it achieves interaction with data that's more like FLEX...but now I'm speaking way out of my comfort zone. I just saw a model of database interaction based on objects and methods and not form submission and page refreshing or action pages...seemed interesting. Not quite. The interaction is still page-based, although the Visual Studio IDE provides the illusion that it isn't. Flex applications on the other hand, truly are event-driven and work like desktop applications. I haven't abandoned CF by any means, but with no upgrade price break, and all the free software, etc, from MS, Adobe's making it tough to stick with them... There's no such thing as a free lunch. Using ASP.NET locks you into the Windows world. This severely limits your deployment options. If that's not a problem for you, ASP.NET may be quite appealing, but you may end up paying a price down the road as a result. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239343 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
If I was in your shoes I would be learning something like Flex 2 and then figuring out what language you want to use to serve data to/from it could be CFM or whatever you pick. On 5/2/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? That's pretty much what I've done...4.5 is the first and only version of CF I've ever owned and it's done everything I've needed, and more than most clients could even fathom it could be used for. However, I do know that things, they are a changin' and I don't want to get too far behind technologically. Besides, I do get bored and like to get into new stuff. :o) Visual Web Developer seems to be a nice tool (I say that only after using a trial version) if someone is using ASP.NET...it integrates nicely. I may change that tune after using it more, however. I tried (the 4th time) to use Dreamweaver, but it was lacking as a visual design tool. I didn't like the price...too high for what I got out of it, and didn't like working with CF components, anyway. But if I migrate to coding ASP.NET, I'll need to start with components, then move on into more hand coding as I did when starting with CF. I let the components do the work at first, then study what they've done, then write it myself so I can get finer control and more functionality from the code. CF has been good to me and I'll keep using it, at least for awhile. But in the meantime, I'll be giving ASP.NET, Visual Web Developer, and probably SQL Server Express and thorough shakedown. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:35 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I hear what you're saying about the programming part...however, most of the sites I build are fairly simple...add, update, delete, report. Once I've grasped how to code that in ASP.NET, I can do 90% of the work I do. And according to the ASP.NET Programming for Cold Fusion Programmers, I can do all of that with Visual Web Designer or Visual Studio without *any* programming. Although, I prefer to not use components, but rather write my own code, I got started in CF by using components, then when the demands of the code went beyond what I could do in components, I learned to write everything myself. Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? And...it seems, based on the description of ASP.Net 2.0, that it achieves interaction with data that's more like FLEX...but now I'm speaking way out of my comfort zone. I just saw a model of database interaction based on objects and methods and not form submission and page refreshing or action pages...seemed interesting. Not quite. The interaction is still page-based, although the Visual Studio IDE provides the illusion that it isn't. Flex applications on the other hand, truly are event-driven and work like desktop applications. I haven't abandoned CF by any means, but with no upgrade price break, and all the free software, etc, from MS, Adobe's making it tough to stick with them... There's no such thing as a free lunch. Using ASP.NET locks you into the Windows world. This severely limits your deployment options. If that's not a problem for you, ASP.NET may be quite appealing, but you may end up paying a price down the road as a result. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239355 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer
From your perspective, and since I don't know a lot about Flex, what would you say are the reasons Flex 2 would be the future I should pursue? What will Flex 2 provide? Rich Internet Application development? Or something beyond that? I know I could read it on the Adobe/MM website, but I'd like to hear your perspective... And, too, since I gather that Flex 2 can be used in conjunction with other languages like ASP, etc., if I use CF with it, I still have to keep paying the *full* price now and upgrade prices in the future... Rick -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ASP.Net book for CF programmer If I was in your shoes I would be learning something like Flex 2 and then figuring out what language you want to use to serve data to/from it could be CFM or whatever you pick. On 5/2/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? That's pretty much what I've done...4.5 is the first and only version of CF I've ever owned and it's done everything I've needed, and more than most clients could even fathom it could be used for. However, I do know that things, they are a changin' and I don't want to get too far behind technologically. Besides, I do get bored and like to get into new stuff. :o) Visual Web Developer seems to be a nice tool (I say that only after using a trial version) if someone is using ASP.NET...it integrates nicely. I may change that tune after using it more, however. I tried (the 4th time) to use Dreamweaver, but it was lacking as a visual design tool. I didn't like the price...too high for what I got out of it, and didn't like working with CF components, anyway. But if I migrate to coding ASP.NET, I'll need to start with components, then move on into more hand coding as I did when starting with CF. I let the components do the work at first, then study what they've done, then write it myself so I can get finer control and more functionality from the code. CF has been good to me and I'll keep using it, at least for awhile. But in the meantime, I'll be giving ASP.NET, Visual Web Developer, and probably SQL Server Express and thorough shakedown. Rick -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:35 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ASP.Net book for CF programmer I hear what you're saying about the programming part...however, most of the sites I build are fairly simple...add, update, delete, report. Once I've grasped how to code that in ASP.NET, I can do 90% of the work I do. And according to the ASP.NET Programming for Cold Fusion Programmers, I can do all of that with Visual Web Designer or Visual Studio without *any* programming. Although, I prefer to not use components, but rather write my own code, I got started in CF by using components, then when the demands of the code went beyond what I could do in components, I learned to write everything myself. Well then, if you're not using new functionality, why move to anything else at all? Why not stick with CF 4.5.1 SP2? And...it seems, based on the description of ASP.Net 2.0, that it achieves interaction with data that's more like FLEX...but now I'm speaking way out of my comfort zone. I just saw a model of database interaction based on objects and methods and not form submission and page refreshing or action pages...seemed interesting. Not quite. The interaction is still page-based, although the Visual Studio IDE provides the illusion that it isn't. Flex applications on the other hand, truly are event-driven and work like desktop applications. I haven't abandoned CF by any means, but with no upgrade price break, and all the free software, etc, from MS, Adobe's making it tough to stick with them... There's no such thing as a free lunch. Using ASP.NET locks you into the Windows world. This severely limits your deployment options. If that's not a problem for you, ASP.NET may be quite appealing, but you may end up paying a price down the road as a result. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:239357 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
