Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Eagle 1" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 May I add...
 Jesus was rejected by the Pharisees' temple cult of darkness.

True.  But that then does not translate into:


 Regardless
 of how many may try, no one will ever be able to apply this
identification
 of the overspreading of the abomination desolation over the Temple
and
 Jerusalem to anyone else. Jesus was crucified by these same ones who
took
 Him. (Luke 22:52-54)

Regardless of how you try to put the sole blame for Jesus' crucifixion
on the Pharisees, it doesn't change the FACT that crucifixion could
only be done by the Roman state.  The Pharisees themselves would have
been crucified for trying to crucify someone, because that would have
been seen as a treasonable usurption of Rome's authority.

If it was just a matter of wishing to be rid of Jesus, the Pharisees
could have easily had Him stoned to death.  Rome would have not
interfered.


 The Romans were trapped into this murder by
 the Sanhedrin and coercing Pilate with threats of reporting him to
Rome for
 allowing another man in the Roman Empire to be called a King.

It would have taken more than that.  There had previously been dozens
of Jewish prophets who claimed to be 'The Messiah' (and had hundreds of
followers who believed them), and had never caused Rome any worry.

You have to ask yourself WHY, if the Pharisees could have easily had
Jesus stoned to death without Rome ever blinking an eye, they needed to
'coerce' (to use your own terminology) Rome into condemning Jesus to a
manner of death solely reserved for those found guilty of high crimes
and misdemeanors against ROME.

You have to ask yourself WHY the Pharisees were suddenly able to
'coerce' Rome in this matter, when normally they had little say or sway
with or over Rome...


 The Romans
 were never blamed by the Apostles for the death of Jesus.

We have no idea what the apostles actually said in this matter, since
we have no direct writings from any of them, only what was written
decades later, after most of them were dead.  Add to that the FACT that
the western Christian church later became entrenched in Rome, and
styled itself on the old pagan Roman empire, complete with a 'senate'
(council of bishops) and a 'caesar' (the pope), and it isn't surprising
that its cronies who later sat and decided what should and shouldn't be
included in the Bible had a vested interest in removing as many
negative references to Rome as possible...and had a vested interest to
assign 'blame' solely to the Jews, and remove all blame from Rome...

But no one's yet answered my question:  what does it matter WHO is
responsible?  The whole reason for Jesus' existence was to be betrayed
and to die a horrible death as a sacrifice to atone for our collective
sins; in other words, He wasn't destined to live to a ripe old age and
die of natural causes, because such a life and death would have
rendered His existence meaningless.

Whomever is to be 'blamed' for condemning Jesus, they were just
enacting the plan already laid out by God.

So Judas, the Pharisees, and Rome itself were all integral actors in
God's grand theatrical event.

If you seek to assign 'blame' for Jesus' death, look to God Himself,
since it was His plan to begin with.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Aleisha's Rants, Illuminiati, Talmud, Marx,Jesuit trained Clinton ... et al

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Michael Pugliese" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just a hunch, but is Aleisha, really another one of Collen Jones,
 "virtual personalities."???

Could be.  Colleen was also known to utilize two or more IDs on a list
at one time, to give the allusion of having supporters   ;-)


 Same literary style, same
 allusions to a back channel to J. Edgar Hoover.

Yes, and if you notice there is at least one other member on the list
who prolifically posts messages with a grammatical style similar to
Aleisha's...


June

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[CTRL] Borden Murders (was: Talmud Exposed)

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Yardbird" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Lizzie was later seen, and attested to to, having burned a dress that
did
 have blood stains on it.

The dress didn't have blood on it, but brown paint.  Her sister, their
friend who saw the dress burning, and the dressmaker who had made the
dress the previous May all testified to that.  Lizzie never testified
during her trial, only at the initial inquest which was held a few days
after the murders and before the dress-burning incident had come to
light (hence it was never brought up in the inquest testimony).

The day before the dress burning the police thoroughly searched the
Borden premises looking for just that -- bloodstained clothing.  They
actually tore panels off walls and bricks from chimneys, but found
nothing.  So if the dress that was burned DID have blood on it (which
the prosecution tried to imply), no one has been able to explain where
Lizzie successfully hid it during the search.

BTW, Lizzie burned the dress because her sister Emma told her to; it
wasn't until their friend Alice Russell walked into the kitchen and saw
what Lizzie was doing did Alice mention that if it was found out, it
would 'look bad' for Lizzie; at which time Lizzie demanded of Emma "why
did you let me do it?".  So it would seem that if anything, it was EMMA
who had something to hide, or at least a desire to implicate Lizzie...

And also BTW, this dress-burning was done with a couple of Fall River's
finest standing right outside the kitchen door and by the window next
to the stove where the dress was burned...


 The implicit suggestion by the defense was that
 it was menstrual blood though why she didn't wash it and chose to
burn it
 was never satisfactorily explained by Lizzie.

The only garment of Lizzie's entered as evidence that contained any
sort of blood on it was one cotton petticoat.  The blood was the size
of a pinhead, and it was the prosecution's witness, on
cross-examination by the defense, who admitted that the blood had come
from the underside of the garment, and "was not inconsistent with
menstrual blood".

Lizzie WAS having her period at the time of the murders.

As to why "she didn't wash it", I suggest you tune into a series
currently on PBS called "1900 House" (about a modern family trying to
live as Victorians), and get an idea of what washing clothes back in
that time entailed.  No automatic washers.  No clorine bleach.
Everything had to be done by hand, and hard work it was.  It was
probably impossible to completely remove any bloodstain, and one the
size of a pinhead was probably left alone.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nurev Ind Research" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Which apostles are you talking about? The cowards who revised history
to please
 Rome? The ones who buddied up to the very people who killed Jesus.

Yes, they tend to forget that Paul considered himself a Roman citizen,
and had a vested interest in presenting Rome in the best light
possible...


June

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Re: [CTRL] Aleisha's Rants, Illuminiati, Talmud, Marx,Jesuit trained Clinton ... et al

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Some wrote me to say your were a lesbian, another said a man

Perhaps I'm both...   ;-)


 - I do not
 care who you are, except you have a very corrupted and evil manner
and
 to put it simply, you are a bore.

But not to you, it appears...

Seems I've pushed a few buttons, eh?


June

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Re: [CTRL] Aleisha's Rants, Illuminiati,Talmud,Marx,Jesuit trained Clinton ...

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "William Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

So if June says it, it's fact and if Bill says it, it's fact? But if
Aleisha says it, it's NOT fact? 

You're catchin' on...


Yes, and we suddenly find a brand new ID on the list suddenly coming to
"Aleisha's" defense, but utilizing a grammatical style remarkably similar to
"Aleisha's"   ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you seek to assign 'blame' for Jesus' death, look to God Himself,
  since it was His plan to begin with.

Why must you interpret it that way?  Is that the way you interpret the JFK
assassination?  That he had to die so our destiny, mucky and garbled as it
is, could be attained?

No, because as far as I know, no one has claimed that JFK is the Son of God,
who was sent here to die for our sins.  That IS the claim that Christianity
makes.

Therefore, it stands to reason that Jesus had to die a horrible death rather
than die of old age in his bed.  My Sunday school teachers confirmed this,
as this was one of the 'troublesome' questions I would raise back then...

If Jesus lived to old age and died of natural causes, his whole existence
would have been meaningless.  The whole reason for God to manifest His Son
in the flesh was for His Son to atone for our collective sins.  That's what
the Bible claims.


If Jesus was a true figure in history and if he did
indeed die on a cross, why take the current organized religion's view of it

I'm taking no view, only presenting what is stated in the Bible.


when you don't give much weight to the Bible

Who says I don't?  I've never said that.


and you probably don't have any respect for organized religion?

And I've never said that, either.

Any 'disrespect' I have for any flavor of organized religion lies not in
what any one religion claims as a matter of faith, but when certain
adherents take matters of faith and then try to present it as gospel
truth...  ;-)


I'm not even sure Jesus lived the way explained, let alone died the way
explained.  The virgin birth, the manger, the crucifxion, the betrayal -
are all echoes from the tales of other legendary figures.  But if he did
live and die that way, it sounds more like a political assassination than
some weird hocus pocus to take on the sins of other individuals.

Perhaps Jesus was nothing more than a mortal man, who was put to death
because he was perceived to be a threat to domestic tranquility and order
and maintainance of the status quo...

But that isn't what the Bible claims.  The Bible assigns a singular type of
metaphysicality to Jesus; indeed some Christians go beyond calling Jesus the
Son of God and claim He is God Himself.

And that casts everything in a totally different light...

Compare Christianity with any other religion...what other religion has its
god killed by mortals?  None.


How does one take on the wrongs of another?  Individuals have their own
acountability.  This "sacrifice for our sins" thinking is bizarre and
unnatural, IMO.

Hey, take it up with the Christians, not with me...

I presume you aren't one?  ;-)


June


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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reference Lizzie Borden - 20 whacks with an axe and from what I read
I
 would not have blamed here.   One recent TV movie hinted Lizzie's
sister
 did it.  Such a brutal crime for two sweet ladies hard to believe.

If your only information regarding the Borden murders is via movies,
your knowledge is sorely lacking.

By the way, it wasn't '40 Whacks', the children's ditty not
withstanding...

Emma, Lizzie's older sister, wasn't home that day...she had left to
stay with friends at the shore a week before...so how could she have
been in two places at once?

Lizzie was seen shortly before the murders outside in the yard (she
testified she'd been out in the barn when the murders occurred), just
minutes after her father came home from work; it was only minutes after
her father had been murdered when she called the maid downstairs to
tell her of her (Lizzie's) father being murdered...Lizzie was composed,
wearing the same dress she had worn all morning, and didn't have any
blood on her self or her clothes...

The murder weapon was never found (altho the Fall River police did
finally take one broken ax from the house that was later claimed by the
prosecution to have been the murder weapon even though there were no
traces of blood on it and the broken handle had obviously been broken
for some time because it wasn't a new break)...

So how could Lizzie have given her father 11 whacks with an ax, causing
blood to splatter on the wall behind the father and not get any blood
on herself, and be able to successfully hide the murder weapon in a
very tiny house?  There was only a 20 minute time frame for Andrew
Borden to have been murdered in, which makes it almost impossible for
Lizzie to have killed her father...


 The mob cried Give us Barabas..while Judas gave the kiss of
death -
 the informer?   It was that Italian mob all the time?

"Give us Barrabas" is a legend, nothing more.  There is no evidence
that Barrabas even existed.  And the Roman authorities would never have
given up a prisoner condemned to be crucified because the residents of
Jerusalem asked them to.  Those condemned to be crucified were
condemned of high crimes and misdemeanors against the Roman state, and
wouldn't have been pardoned because a rabble asked...

"The kiss of death"...?  Again, Jesus' whole reason for being was as a
sacrifice for our collective sins...in other words, God's plan would
have been meaningless if Jesus had lived to a ripe old age and died in
His sleep of natural causes

So everyone that factored in Jesus' 'betrayal' was part of God's
plan...and that includes Judas...

But there are some clues that the commonly accepted 'facts' of Judas
are skewed to present a picture that is not quite accurate...

In one part of the New Testament it's claimed Judas hanged himself...in
another part it mentions he was found with his throat cut...

Hard to cut one's throat and then hang oneself, eh?


 But in the bible too, they do say The Camels Are Coming.

What book and verse?


June

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Re: [CTRL] Aleisha's Rants, Illuminiati, Talmud, Marx, Jesuit trained Clinton ... et al

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "David Sutherland" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aleisha - You KNOW ALL THIS stuff below - REALLY!  (ggg)

  you wrote:

 "Screw them all...get that bible and find out who really wrote it
and
  whyeven Marx knew it was sheer opium and mind control"

 Marx in fact wrote that "religion" not the 'bible', was the "opiate"
not the
 'opium', of the "people" not of 'mind control'.

David, you're referring to KARL Marx, when it should be obvious Aleisha
gets her/his stuff from Groucho...   ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 This is self explanatry as to the silliness of it. You should mean
the
 Pharisees decided to get rid of Jesus and the Romans didn't stop
them.
 Pontius Pilate washed his hands and the crowd said let Barabbas go -
 "Crucify Him".

Crucifixion was solely the provence of the Roman State; the Pharisees
did not have the legal right to crucify anyone.

Crucifixion was only used for people convicted of high crimes and
misdemeanors against the Roman State.  Only a Roman official could
decree crucifixion.

The authorities of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem COULD condemn a
'heretic' to death, but the condemned was then stoned to death.

To repeat:  crucifixion was a manner of death reserved solely for the
Roman political state, and only used for prisoners convicted of major
crimes, including treason against the Roman state.  A Jewish prophet
claiming to be the Messiah would NOT have been crucified by the Roman
state unless that man represented a major threat somehow to the Roman
state.  The Romans would never have crucified someone just because the
Pharisees asked them to.

If it was just a matter of the Pharisees wishing to kill Jesus, they
could have easily condemned him in the Sanhedrin and then had him
stoned to death.

The fact that Jesus was crucified shows that the Romans considered him
a significant threat to Rome.


 Can we now blame them for Jesus' death then? Romans according to you
 tenebroust are white Europeans. ROMANS are the same race as ITALIAN
 CATHOLICS in the Vatican.

And yes, since it was the ROMANS who killed Jesus in a manner solely
reserved by ROME for people convicted of high crimes against ROME, then
yes, white Europeans are guilty for Jesus' death...

But what does it matter?  The whole "raison d'etre" for Jesus'
manifestation in the flesh was so that He would ultimately be condemned
to die a horrible death as a sacrifice to atone for our sins.  So it
doesn't matter WHO killed Him then, does it...since without being
condemned to die as a sacrifice, His life would have been meaningless.

In other words, God's plan did NOT call for Jesus living to a ripe old
age and dying in His own bed of old age...


 Maybe I should sit on the fence and just comment on the posts that
come by
 and tell people what the real truth is so they won't be deceived by
reading
 them and thinking they are true. After all now I have 5 predators
attacking
 my character. Not worth posting anything is it. Satisfied?

You obviously had a mistaken notion of this list, if you thought it
would be a forum where you could post your undocumented ramblings
without discussion and debate.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 What the problem is (possibly) : it could be that these people can't
grasp
 significent differences between the character of one person from
another and
 that they have not studied psychology.  Everyone is completely
different
 from everyone else.

Ah, but you and 'Aleisha' seem to be cut from the same cloth, eh?   ;-)


 Now its the Romans killed Jesus.

Thems the historical facts


 Nobody killed Jesus. He was dead from absorbing all the evil of the
human
 race as a ransom before they were going to spear His side.

No, He died from being crucified.  It causes suffocation.

And He was executed by the Romans, in a manner solely reserved by the
Romans for those found guilty of crimes against the Roman state.


 Jesus is God incarnate in human form.

There is no Biblical basis for that claim.  Jesus is purportedly the
SON of God, not God Himself.


 I'd like to see evidence that the Romans killed Him.

The evidence is in the manner he was executed.  If he was executed by
the Sanhedrin, he would have been stoned to death.

Since you seem to be deliberately dense, I will repeat:  crucifixion
could only be done by the Roman authorities, no one else.  It was
illegal for non-Roman authorities to impose crucifixion as a form of
death.

This is historical FACT...but you've never let facts bother you, eh?


 Pontius Pilate found nothing wrong with Jesus.

Yet he still condemned Jesus to be crucified, a manner of death
reserved only for those guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors against
the Roman state.  Rome would have never crucified someone because he
angered local religious authorities, they would have considered that a
local matter to be handled by the local authorities in what ever
manner, short of crucifixion.  Other types of death penalties were
allowed, but I repeat, crucifixion was reserved for Rome.


 I have a book called The Lost Books of the Bible in which letters
from Pontius
 Pilate are written to Herod etc

And I'm sure you can PROVE the historical veracity of these letters?

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you June for clearly illustrating this distinction.
Roam rulers are to blame, and the silliness is that anyone
would think it was the Jews.

And since crucifixion was the reserved punishment for high crimes and
misdemeanors against the Roman state, Roman authorities would not
release anyone just because the residents of Jerusalem asked them to
(the Barrabbas myth).

And Rome was constantly dealing with the "Judea problem" of any number
of men claiming to be the true Messiah who would lead the Judeans to
freedom...rarely were those other messianic claimants crucified, and if
they were it was due to definite treasonable activities against the
power of Rome, not because of the claim to be 'the Messiah'.

Rome was actually very tolerant of the various religions under its
scope of rule...problems only arose with the Jews -- and later the
Christians -- when periodically Rome would require residents in its
various colonies to make sacrifices to the various Roman gods.  Pagans
in other lands easily complied, and Rome could never understand why the
Jews put up such a fuss...

So Rome viewed the periodic appearances of messiahs in Judea to be a
local problem, to be handled by the Judean authorities.  If the temple
authorities wished to make an example of a heretic, Rome would gladly
allow them to whip the man, torture him, put his eyes out, even kill
him via stoning, if at least the semblance of a trial was held
beforehand.

For Jesus to have been condemned to crucifixion, he had to have done
something that really shook Rome up...they had to have considered him a
danger and a threat to the order and the power of the Roman state, else
they would have let the Sanhedrin handle the matter.

Not only is crucifixion a slow and grisly form of death, the Romans
made sure it was very public...the crosses were always placed where the
condemned could clearly be seen by those passing by on the most
well-traveled roads...it was Rome's way of saying "See...here is what
we do to those who try to oppose us!"  It definitely was used in a
manner to terrorize those who lived there and passed by...one could not
avoid seeing the condemned, and hearing those who had not yet died...


June

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 There used to be a song The Camels (or was it Campbells) Are Coming -
my
 Uncle who was high Mason had this beep stuff put on his
Chryslerfor
 he loved to hear The Camels Are Coming..

It is "Campbells", not "Camels"...it is a ditty about a Scots clan...

 Now Judges in the bible is a horrible book but then aren't they all
in
 the Old Testment - murder of the sons of Saul, David harping away
with
 music soothing souls of savage beasts

I believe it is "savage breast", not beasts...


 The Irish however love sad songs and somehow, when I read this Song
of
 Deborah in the Bible, this butcher - she probably today would have
one
 of those big nail staplers - but boy she was deadlyand like
Lizzie
 Bordon, did they write a song about her

Lizzie Borden was acquitted...it has never been proven who killed her
father and stepmother (and talk about conspiracy, anyone who's
interested in discussing all the possible culprits in that case, I'd
love to have a go at it since it's a hobby of mine)...Lizzie lived to a
ripe old age, lived a genteel life (although she scandalized the
neighbors and her sister Emma by entertaining actors and actresses in
her home), was fond of animals and left most of her fortune to an
animal welfare society.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Talmud Exposed/Lost Books of the Bible

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
a book called The Lost Books of the Bible

  That book is a known fake.
  Do not believe everything you read.

   Is it really?  I recently bought it myself and read through some
parts, ie,
 that Jesus used his "powers" to harm other children who annoyed him
when he
 was very young - he even killed one or two.  One chapter says he
formed birds
 from clay then made them fly - it was all quite bizarre to me.  It
didn't
 even have the quality of a well-written fairy tale.

Yeah, I remember when I first read it a decade and a half ago...Jesus
came off sounding very much like Sissy Spacek in "Carrie"   ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Fonda sorry for taking pic in Vietnam

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "William Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Yeah, she apologized a decade ago for this and the
"patriots" called it too little too late...

Why couldn't she have a change of heart?  I personally know untold
numbers of people who during the 60s were radically opposed to the war,
who called for 'sharing the wealth' and promoted collectivism...

By the 1980s they were all yuppies, and voted for Reagan.  Many are now
officers of banks.


now that she's a born-again Xian will it make a difference???

Probably not.  What would all those rednecks with "I'm not Fonda Hanoi
Jane" bumperstickers do?


Should it

No.  Her religious beliefs are her own, and shouldn't have any bearing
one way or another on what she did a generation ago.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Barbara Marx Hubbard - Plus Ascension articles

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Scientific Proof for the Reality of Ascension

"Pseudo-scientific" would be a better description...


 Subject: Will 'Ascension' occur June 22?

Anyone want to place any bets on this?  Should we hold a Going Away
Party for Nicky today?  ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Tarot Card Assassins

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Has anyone ever heard of the Tarot Card Assassins.now Tarot Cards
 are very sinister ancient Egyptian Cards.

Bull.  Tarot is totally a European invention, relying on
pseudo-Egyptian imagery to lend them an air of authenticity.  During
the late Middle Ages when these cards were developed, and early
Renaissance when they were 'perfected', Europeans felt that anything
Egyptian lent an air of mystery and occult authority.

That is how the traveling people of Romany who utilized these cards
came to be called 'gypsies', since legend had it that they originally
came from Egypt, when in reality their ancestors came from India...

And tarot are just cards, neither 'sinister' nor benevolent


 Cup signifies an award I think,

No, it doesn't.  At least not in tarot.


 So does anyone, maybe Nicky - undertand waht I am saying.

I'm sure Nicky does.  I'm sure that most of the rest of us just find it
incoherent babble as I do...


 Falling Towers (commu;nication breakdown),

I suggest you get a good book on tarot and read up on EXACTLY what the
images stand for and mean.

The card referred to as The Tower, showing a lightening bolt destroying
a tower, does NOT represent 'communication breakdown'...


 CUPS may stand
 for Ryder Cup Stewart and his strange death and little JonBenet

When you get that good tarot reference book, read up on the meaning of
the suit of cups, too...

It sounds like you've been basing your 'research' on bad B-grade
Hollywood movies in which tarot has been an integral part.  I'm sure
you feel the Death card represents actual physical death, too


June

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Re: [CTRL] Tarot Card Assassins

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Well June the books from which you quote here are but a few who claim
to
 know origin of Tarot Cardsin fact you quote so precisely from the
 one that one would think it all true.

I quoted no one in my post, except for what you yourself had posted.


 Some of the books I have with regard to these cards were writte
nearly
 200 years ago

Just because the books are supposedly 2 centuries old does not mean
that what is printed in them is true.


 Nicky is an astrologer and I imagen knows a lot about these cards.

Not necessarily.  Tarot is a totally separate category than astrology,
and most astrologers are not tarot experts.


June

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Re: [CTRL] ELIAN VISITED BY ONE OF HIS RESCUERS

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

 The visit marked the second time Ciancio has met with Juan
 Miguel.  At the first encounter in early April while Elian was
 still in Miami, Ciancio, the father of two, changed his mind
 about keeping Elian in the United States and publicly broke with
 Dalrymple and the Miami relatives.

From what I've read, Ciancio never aligned himself with his cousin and
the Miami Gang, but always believed that Elian should be returned to
Cuba to the custody of his father.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Exclusive: Photos Reveal Elian's Day Out

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

 Elian is, no doubt, a trophy for the Democratic Party and for
 Castro.

Just as he was a trophy for the Miami Gang of fanatical
anti-Castro-ites...


 Apparently, the Cuban government wants to pay homage to its pagan
 gods for its custody of little Elian.

 Yesterday Elian, his family and an entourage of Cuban officials
 were escorted to the Silver Spring, Md., home of a
 Cuban-American.

 The next-door neighbor forwarded NewsMax.com pictures of the
 event. The neighbor insists the Gonzalez party was participating
 in Santeria activities.

When Elian was in the clutches of the Miami Gang, news reports showed
many supporters also worshipping Santerian 'gods'and showed them
claiming that Elian represented one of their gods...

So it seems that no one camp has a monopoly on the practicing of this
religion...


 Santeria is an Afro-Cuban religion in which animal sacrifices are
 performed regularly to help the practitioner succeed in his
 endeavors.

The same thing can be said of Voodoun, Yoruba, and many other pagan
religions with African roots...

So what's the point?


 It has long being rumored that Castro and his thugs are involved
 in these practices that some refer to as voodoo.

Santeria is not 'voodoo'.  The word 'voodoo' is a corruption of the
word 'Voodoun', a separate religion.

The writer has obviously watched too many Hollywood movies, which
mistakenly combine practices of Voodoun, Santeria, Yoruba, and the
other Caribbean and South American pagan religions, in a
melodramatic -- and factually inaccurate -- depiction designed to sell
tickets.


 Another NewsMax.com reader also witnessed the Santeria conclave
 yesterday and reported, "Based on what I saw and heard, I believe
 the information provided by the next-door neighbor with respect
 to Santeria activity is reliable."

Interesting that they also don't mention the neighbor across the street
from the Miami Gonzalez's -- one of their supporters -- who turned her
front porch into a Santerian alter, which many of the thousands of
loiterers on the street outside dutifully made offerings to...

No animal sacrifices were SHOWN, but since, as has been pointed out
above, it IS an integral part of the religion, one would expect the
supporters of the Miami Gang also made such sacrifices.

Again, what's the point the writer is trying to make?


 He continued: "I can tell you that the sound of the drums was
 deafening at times, and that Juan Miguel was drinking heavily.

Gee...this 'neighbor' seems to have a strange ability to see into
someone else's house.


 The neighbor also pointed out a Santeria relic visible through
 the window of the house. All this activity took place under the
 noses of the U.S. Marshals Service and INS agents.

And why not?  Why do you imply the U.S. Marshall (learn to spell it
correctly) Service has a right to interfere with the LEGAL practice of
this religion?


 Perhaps it’s time to call an exorcist.

Why?  Do you feel that all non-Christian religions worship the
Christian devil?


 A NewsMax.com reader lives next door and took photos

Why?  To sell to the highest bidder?


 While most of the kids played in the backyard of the house, Elian
 was not allowed to be in the backyard for anymore than a few
 minutes at a time.

How does the neighbor, admittedly peeking thru his bedroom curtains
nextdoor, 'know' that Elian 'was not allowed' to be in the backyard
'for anymore [sic] than a few minutes at a time'...?

Was this Peeping Tom able to see ALL of the backyard?  Was he able to
see inside?  Perhaps there was a Sega game Elian didn't want to
leave

The picture shows absolutely nothing.  Elian is not in this picture.
We don't know if he is to the right, behind the bushes in the far
corner of the yard.  We don't know if perhaps he is behind the bushes
in the center of the picture, between the bushes and the shed.  Perhaps
he is playing with some other children in the shed.  Perhaps he is
behind the group of people under the tent.  Perhaps he is in the
sideyard on the other side of the house.  Perhaps he is in the sideyard
to the left of the photographer.

And yes, perhaps he IS in the house.  But the picture doesn't prove he
was 'kept' in the house.  He may have been inside momentarily to use
the bathroom.  Or to get a glass of lemonade.  Perhaps he got dirty and
needed to have his clothes changed.

Perhaps the day was very hot, and he preferred to stay in the
presumably air-conditioned house and watch cartoons.

And perhaps it was noticed the nextdoor neighbor was taking pictures,
so Elian was brought back inside.


"Even though he tried to get out several times, he was prevented
from so doing.

The picture doesn't show this.  It shows a little boy running.  Little
boys do this all the time.

It doesn't show anyone chasing him.  It doesn't show anyone restraining
him.

It looks very much like Elian is doing exactly what Elian wishes to do.


 It is a Santeria Deity, plain and simple. It used to be located
 by the main 

Re: [CTRL] The War Against Boys

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

Before WWI, it was the norm in western culture to give little boys
dolls to play with, the same sort of dolls which their sisters played
with.  Indeed, the Victorian custom was to dress little boys in dresses
until they were 5 or 6 years old.

With the first World War, the idea changed that now little boys had to
be conditioned and taught to be cannon fodder, hence the change to
emphasize 'masculine' toys for boys, and the denigrating of the idea of
boys' nurturing nature being encouraged via doll play...

It is purely a 20th century construct, a myth like that of the 'nuclear
family', that boys prefer one type of toy over another; boys will play
with the toys they are given, and if a male infant or toddler is given
a doll, he will play with it.


June

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CTRL
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nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] 86% believe aliens friendly

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
No need for a "War of the Worlds" attempt to take over the Earth, the
public is prepared to roll out the red carpet and hand over the key
to
the city...

Probably give them a ticker tape parade, too...

 Why does reading this make me remember a photo I saw once of
Austrians
 cheering Hitler as he paraded into Vienna at the beginning of the
 Anschluss?

Indeed.  Just as back then, we now have the 'alien' version of Fifth
Columnists


June

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Re: [CTRL] Underground tunnels gif

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 well nessie, you've shot yourself in the foot.

 You just said nobody can substantiate these underground sites and
then said
 does it make a difference if you are a man or not.If so why?

  Put it this way -

The rest of the drivel's been snipped.

It had nothing to do with the fact that it's true that this map's been
making the rounds for years, and that no one has been able to
substantiate sites.

When it comes to 'confuse just for the sake of it', no one holds a
light to "Nicky Molloy".


June

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[CTRL] Fw: The Abduction Enigma by Randle, Estes and Cone

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

[NOTE:  I don't believe #2 below, I believe most people who believe
they've been abducted are no more or less emotionally stable as society
at large; there DOES seem to be a focus on sexuality, and an interest
in homosexuality in some abductees.  But I object to the grouping of
homosexuality with 'other serious problems causing emotional
instability'...]


- Original Message -

 http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v47/ss000315.htm

Amazingly, CSICOP reviewed "The Abduction Enigma" favorably, and was so
taken by the anti-abduction theme that they were apparently willing to
overlook the fact that these guys are Believers!

 Enigma" makes so many important points that we can only summarize a
few of them here:

 1. About half of all abduction experiences are merely sleep paralysis.
(Your editor had a mild experience with this as a teenager.)

 2. A disproportional number of abductees are homosexual, hypersexual,
sexually disfunctional, or have other serious problems causing
emotional instability.

3. "The abduction phenomenon is an outgrowth of what the researcher
expects, rather than what the abductee
experienced." (Page 171) Abductees don't lie; they are honestly
mistaken, and the researchers often just make their delusions worse.

4. Hypnosis, improperly used, reveals false memories rather than real
ones. This has occurred not only in abduction research but more
tragically in regard to tales of sexual and Satanic abuse.

5. "It has become painfully clear that sexuality is a major part of
abduction." (Page 91) But because of our prudish society, most
abduction researchers have deliberately played down the sex angle.
However, after reading this book, we realize that the interdimensional
adventures of David Huggins are not at all unusual. On Page 97 the
authors tell of a female abductee called Leeza who was lying on a metal
table surrounded by
aliens, one of whom mounted her and was heard to say, "What you need is
a good fuck."

6. Chapters are devoted to each of the leading abduction researchers,
the worst of whom, in regard to leading his patients and sexual
overtones, must be Dr. Richard Boylan.  His "hot tub" episode with a
female abductee was one of the reasons his license in California was
recently revoked. It is not well known that Boylan himself is an
abductee and also a former Catholic priest. (No, we won't say anything
bad about Budd Hopkins this time - nor will we say anything good.)

7. Scars, implants, and missing fetuses are irrelevant or unproven.
Indeed, there is no scientific proof that any abduction has ever taken
place. The only exception would be if these events are "4-D" in nature,
i.e., extrasensory. We agree.

 This is an exceptional book. We have actually read (almost) all of it.
Whatever your ufological views may be, there is a lot to learn here.
The publisher is Tom Doherty Associates, and the price to those
who have to pay for it is $25.95.


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Re: [CTRL] 86% believe aliens friendly

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

 By a margin of 86 to 14, people said they thought galactic neighbors
are
 friendly rather than hostile.

This is pretty scary, considering there is no logical basis for this
opinion.

IF -- and I stress IF -- there are beings living elsewhere in the
universe, we have no basis to judge what their opinion and attitude
towards us -- IF they are even aware of us -- actually is.

They may be friendly.

They may be hostile.

They may be totally unconcerned, not giving a damn one way or the other
about us.

But IF they are as intelligent as the general public feels they are,
then if they are hostile they are intelligent enough to present
themselves as 'friendly', since that is what the majority of the public
believes them to be...

No need for a "War of the Worlds" attempt to take over the Earth, the
public is prepared to roll out the red carpet and hand over the key to
the city...

Probably give them a ticker tape parade, too...


June

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Re: [CTRL] Navy Sonar May Have Killed Whales

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Prudence L. Kuhn" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 The Navy says it needs the system to detect ``quiet,
  diesel-electric submarines operated by unfriendly nations and
  competitors.'' 

 Competitors???  Our navy is becoming a very interesting
organization.

Yeah, they have to watch out for all those private navies proliferating
out there...  :-7


June

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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Bible, King James Version

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "blue honey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Revelation 20:

 7
 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of
his
 prison,
 8
 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four
quarters of
 the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the
number of
 whom is as the sand of the sea.

If you read the whole chapter in context, Satan has not been bound for
the thousand years yet...


June

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[CTRL] Fw: Major CSETI Announcement

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

- Original Message -
From: "Wes Thomas" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 7:21 PM

 Steven Greer announced the following on Coast To Coast last night. On
 the show, Dr. Greer alleged the U.S. military has been using advanced
 military craft to simulate hostile UFOs to justify militarization of
 space and said he has a top aerospace executive and "200 top-secret
 witnesses" lined up to blow the whistle.

 That raises some interesting questions:

 1. If the military has been simulating "aliens" and "UFOs," doesn't
that
 make Greer (and the "ET" community) complicit (consciously or not) in
 this continued disformation scheme?

 2. How do these alleged "top secret" witnesses plan to evade national
 security regulations without imprisonment? This sounds totally
 unrealistic.


 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:48:03 -0700
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 From: "A.J. Craddock" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Major CSETI Announcement

 DISCLOSURE NEWS PROGRAMMING

 ANNOUNCEMENT
 12 June 2000

 Dr. Steven M. Greer announced today that the long-awaited process to
disclose
 definitive evidence and proof regarding extraterrestrial
intelligence, UFOs
 and covert government projects related to the subject has been funded
and
 launched.

 Disclosure News Programming (DNP), an investigative reporting news
 organization, has been formed to spearhead and coordinate this
disclosure
 over the next year. Key features of the project include:

 A prolonged, sustained and coordinated multimedia global release of
 definitive evidence and the testimony of top secret witnesses about
 extraterrestrial intelligence, secret and compartmented government
programs
 and advanced technologies related to energy and propulsion systems;

 An integrated strategy which includes a multi-part investigative news
 special, compendia books and transcripts of government witness
testimony, an
 Internet site dedicated to the disclosure evidence and on-going
executive
 briefings for government, military, scientific, congressional,
international,
 and corporate leaders;

 A de facto international government disclosure by virtue of the large
 numbers of military, intelligence, government, corporate, scientific
and
 government-related institute witnesses now ready to come forward
during this
 integrated and sustained program;

 A news conference during which top-secret witnesses disclose the full
 nature of their direct knowledge concerning the subject.

 Currently, over 200 top-secret witnesses have been identified in the
US,
 Brazil, United Kingdom, Denmark, Germany, Norway, Belgium, Russia,
Italy and
 other countries. It is important to note that during briefings at the
 Pentagon and with senior congressional leaders and Executive Branch
staff
 that this civilian effort to disclose this matter has been repeatedly
 green-lighted and even encouraged.

 Disclosure News Programming and its related strategies are supported
by a
 team of senior researchers and consultants with substantial expertise
in
 military affairs, international affairs, national security, science,
 technology and related areas.

 This international team working intensely on the disclosure process
has been
 recently joined by one of the most senior aerospace executives in
American
 history - a person who has specific knowledge since the 1970s of the
planned
 use of Ballistic Missile Defense (the Star Wars program) to target
 extraterrestrial objects in space - even though there is no evidence
of any
 credible threat from these craft.

 It has been determined that the combination of accelerating global
 environmental degradation and the dangers associated with the
weaponization
 of space necessitates a near-term disclosure process. The risks of
doing
 nothing and the benefits to humanity resulting from disclosure make
it clear
 that such an effort - long overdue by most accounts - is now a global
 imperative.

 The public is invited to assist in this project by referring credible
 government and corporate witnesses who have first-hand knowledge of
these
 covert programs, as well as other evidence and materials, to
Disclosure News
 Programming (DNP).


 Contact: Disclosure News Programming (DNP)
 Steven M. Greer, MD
 540 456 8302 (Telephone)
 540 456 8303 (Fax)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Email)

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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat 

Re: [CTRL] JFK Silenced Over UFO's?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

Does "Dark Skies" ring any bells?  ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Since we are speculating we might try to address some of these issues.

Yes, as long as we're clear that this is SPECULATION, and that we are
not presenting our musings as 'the real truth'...   ;-)


What if the so-called abductions of today, since I'm sure most would
agree that abductions (as opposed to interaction and weird events not
involving actual abduction-and possibly experimentation) are a
relatively new phenomenon,

Well, we could make an argument over that presumption.  As has been
pointed out, the modern-day 'abduction by outerspace aliens' phenomenon
has much in common with 'abduction by the wee folk' myths of centuries
past, not to mention similarities to incubi/succubi attacks, and also
very similar to ancient vampire legends (as opposed to Bram Stoker's
relatively modern take on the same)...


are merely a mental scenario and do not take place at all.

Indeed.  That's what I've been suggesting.  But there also could be
made an argument that altho something happens on the mential realm,
it does not necessarily mean that it does 'not take place at all'...
it only means that it is not happening within our physical realm of
reference...


There certainly does seem to be an inordinate interest in sex and
sexuality that's for sure, but could that not aso be a byproduct
of mental tampering, especially if the ental contact is such that
it invokes profound physical symptoms, which may involve orgasm,
as well as pleasure (this may be a way they control the people they
interact with, or make them more "relaxed", etc.).

But this raises the question as to WHY they are doing this.
There are any number of other scenarios that one could mentally
project to relax one's subjects, especially female subjects who
usually will NOT find an experience akin to rape either pleasurable
or relaxing.  Indeed, most of the abduction accounts I've read that
have involved a sexual element, the abductee rarely if ever found
the experience either relaxing or pleasurable, and that includes
males abductees, too.

Perhaps these beings are like the aliens in the movie "Liquid Sky",
and 'get off' on the energy that is released when humans experience
orgasm...

Or maybe Earth is the institution where the sexual perverts of the
universe are sent   :-7


Perhaps they use us for pleasure, whether "toying" with us for
amusement, or satisfying their own prurient interests.

Indeed.

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Today we are told the 21st century will be horrifichot, drought,
 which is about the biggest line of crap this country was ever sold.
 We have our Russian friends into MIR and weather control, and we are
 told a lot of rain for the south west, which means Mexica.

Not just the Russians.  Remember, 'we' have HAARP.

And 'southwest' also means Arizona, New Mexico, southern Texas and
southern California...


 Idea to get to the moon?   Colonization and new frontiersfuture
Adam
 and Eves venturing into places where nobody has gone before, only
this
 time maybe not as well equipped.

The whole idea of sending a man to the moon was fueled by the Cold
War...
as soon as we knew the Russians had space capability, it became a
prestige
thing that the U.S. get to the moon before the Russians...it was bad
enough
that the Russkies beat us to the upper limits of Earth's atmosphere
with
their satellites, and beat us by launching the first successful
astronaut,
we weren't about to let them plant the red hammer-and-sickle flag on
the
moon before we could plant the stars-and-stripes...

But by the early 1970s, times -- and the economy -- had changed
drastically.
The ultra-patriotism of the early 1960s was replaced with verulant
anti-
government protests from one side, and total apathy from the other.  As
you
pointed out, the slump in the economy led to drastic layoffs in the
aerospace
industries.  The price of oil skyrocketed.  Wages were frozen.

It was very hard for NASA and Congress to justify the expenditures
necessary
to continue the lunar space program; the focus changed to building a
permanent orbiting space station (which ended up not very permanent)
and a
reusable spacecraft.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Robert F. Tatman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Two possibilities occur to me off the top of my head: first, the
 ultraterrestrials are constantly need fresh genetic material.  Folklore is
 consistent around the globe that they are extremely long-lived, and
 long-lived species usually have low rates of reproduction--hence the need
 for "breeders.".  The second notion, which just occurred to me, is that the
 ultraterrestrials might actually be symbiotic with humans...that is, human
 genetic material, sperm, ova, what-have-you, is a physical requirement for
 them to reproduce.  Think of the legends of incubi and succubi, who "ravish"
 unwary humans in their sleep...

Or perhaps it's not so much a need for fresh genetic material, but a desire,
for whatever reason, to introduce their own genetic material into human DNA...


June

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Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 If there are these creatures as you posit, then why is it that they
have to have an agenda?  It may be that there interaction with us is
coincidental, or accidental, or that the times that they actually DO
things to us or with us it is the action of BAD members of that race
who are trying to get ahead in the world, much like humans exploit
other humans.  It could be cultural, or ritual as well.  Maybe we are
the subject of mythology in their culture, and they are merely trying
to study us?

That doesn't explain why for at least decades -- and possibly much
longer -- they've been abducting human beings, and especially their
inordinate interest in our genitalia and reproductive systems.

One would think that they would have found out whatever they needed to
long ago -- especially since they DO display seemingly advanced
technology.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Oh, so using that logic, western society is more moral than South
  Pacific tribes, because western society developed the A-bomb and the
  Pacific islanders did not...therefore, we were morally justified in
  forceably evicting the residents of the Bikini atolls from their
  centuries-old home so that we could use it for our nuclear tests...

  Were the developers of Iron Age tools morally superior to their Stone
  Age ancestors?  Were their Bronze Age decendents then morally superior
  to themselves?

   It was terribly obvious what I meant about technology.

Yes, 'terribly' is the key word here.

You stated that only beings that had attained a certain high calibre of
morality would be 'allowed' ('allowed' by whom, I wonder) to attain
higher levels of technology.

Basically saying that if residents of another planet have attained the
technological means to travel here, then for some reason they must be of
a higher moral calibre than we are...

Using that logic then implies that western culture is more 'moral' than
cultures which haven't attained the level of technology that we have,
that we have been 'allowed' to attain more technology than them because
God is on our side

That was the argument the European explorers used to conquer and enslave
native peoples around the worldand was the justification Europe and
the U.S. used in the last century to justify their colonial policies.
After all, white culture was "Christian" culture, giving whites the moral
justification to subjugate other races who just happen to worship another
way.  Christian missionaries argued that they brought about a 'spiritual
awakening' in all the people they converted, too...


 Either you're not wired-up to understand plain English

Oh, I understand the implied racism in your statement very well...


 or you're deliberately saying
 off-the-wall things for whatever reasons of your own (hey, I'm quick).

No, I'm just explaining what your philosophy really means, because it's
obvious you have never thought out the full implications of it.  Or perhaps
you have...


   I'm sure that you'll retort that I never shared anything of substance to
 begin with, so let me just save you one of your 7 per day posts/email address
 and let the insult just hang there for you.

We've already covered this.  You admitted that this is your personal opinion,
which is fine.  I have no problem with personal opinion presented as such.  My
objection is with people like Nicky Molloy presenting personal opinion and
claiming it is FACT.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Naval Reserve Comm Willard H.Miller on UFO Situation

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Given Miller's various pursuits and his military carrer, as well as his affiliations 
it is reasonable to
presume that he is an "intelligence agent" of one kind or another.  Given his remarks 
and clear willingness
to be associated with UFO groups it stands to reason that what he says is highly 
suspect, and could be
disinformation.  Also setting up meetings at the Pentagon is NOT a big deal, just as 
the one editor said.
And the fact that many people in government "are interested in the subject" has 
nothing to do with what
level that interest is at and what they are doing (or have the power to do) to get it 
resolved.  Remember
Clinton supposedly wanted a closer look at the UFO situation, the Kennedy 
assassination and Area-51.  Well
he didn't do anything to enlighten anybody, if he found out anything at all.

And hey, remember Jimmy Carter before he was elected,
admitted to having seen at least one UFO, and promised
to get to 'the truth' of UFOs once elected to office...

We're still waiting...  ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Clearly the most sensible approach. Just because somebody is different,
 that doesn't make them better or worse. Just because somebody has a power
 we don't have, that doesn't make them our superiors.

The problem is, nowadays we have a movement afoot where these beings -- no
better or worse than ourselves -- are now presented as being somehow morally
and spiritually superior to ourselves solely because of their difference
from us...and therefore warrant us giving up our individuality and sovereignty
to these beings, because 'they know better'...


June

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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
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effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: 'Slavemaster' murder case widens

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Intent of sending this is beware of Predators on the Web who would talk
pillow talk.

Don't worry...the LAST person from the Internet I'd consider meeting in
person is someone into SM who goes by the moniker 'slavemaster'...

As much as I hate when people blame the victims, I really have to wonder
what was going through the minds of all these women when they agreed to
meet this guy, especially to travel to another state to meet him...


It will be interesting to see who and what in particular, this Robinson
is.  Did he prey upon women who had money?   Beware of any discussions
where information is gleaned from little clues - for instance, a widow
might have her own home, or a young divorcee might have her own home and
out there are predators ready to pounce.

My guess is that it will be found that most of the women had no family,
or little contact with their family.  In other words, they were basically
on their own.  That explains why all these women could go missing, and
no one seems to have noticed.  Or if it WAS noticed, anyone back home who
cared enough to file a missing persons report had no idea their relative
or friend had travelled out of state to meet someone they'd met in a
SM chatroom...


The worst conspiracy of all now going on in this country according to a
close friend, is predators pouncing on the elderly with funds in banks
and property.   A frog he would a wooing go.

This doesn't sound like that sort of case, altho it probably wouldn't
have hurt (no pun intended) if his intended victims had some discretionary
funds they could be convinced to bring with them to the intended
rendezvous site.

Sounds like these were younger women, and that this guy was more a sexual
predator than a con artist after their money...


I carefully avoid anything that asks about income, for this is now how
these people work collecting financial intelligence first.

Same here.  In fact, anything on the net that asks for age, education,
income, I deliberately lie...to present myself as the least desirable
'demographic' possible...


June

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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Robert F. Tatman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Now, next question: WHY do they want to attract and capture us, and why does
 time seem altered for those they have captured?

Perhaps the time alteration is due to their interdimensionality...the 'space'
they inhabit is doesn't intersect, or only intersects at one finite point, with
our 'time-space continuum'...

As to WHY they wish to attract and capture us...well, humanity has basically
debated that question for millenia (if we accept that what humanity has in the
past labeled 'angels', 'demons', 'faieries', 'devas', 'wee folk', etc. are now
called 'aliens')...

Why did faieries abduct humans in the past (if there is any basis to old folk
tales?)?  Why are angels and demons concerned with us?


June

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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Naval Reserve Comm Willard H.Miller on UFO Situation

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 In the recent May 21, 2000 Boston Globe newspaper article "UFO
 Theorists Gain Support Abroad, But Repression At Home" see:

 http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/may/m21-011.shtml

 authored by Leslie Kean, three paragraphs are devoted to the
 mention of a U.S. Naval Reserve Commander by the name of Willard
 H. Miller.

I suppose this is your attempt at presenting evidence, but it
contains none, only personal opinion.

Nowhere in the article does it say that Miller believes ETs are
piloting UFOs.

There is also the possibility that that Miller is a disinformationalist,
either knowing or unknowing (he may be manipulated by others).


 Leslie Kean was interviewed by Whitley Strieber on the Dreamland
 radio program [Sunday, May 28, 2000] regarding her article which
 appeared in The Boston Globe. During the interview, Kean told of
 a 'reluctance' by newspaper editors to print her article, and
 spoke of several publications, including The Washington Times,
 which rejected her material outright.

This shows that what we are reading is actually secondhand hearsay...
this article is about an article that contains 3 paragraphs supposedly
quoting Miller.  We are not reading Miller's words directly, but as
they are filtered through 2 sets of reporters.


 About 1-hour and 26-minutes into the radio program, Leslie Kean
 said that newspaper editors were uncomfortable to her reference
 of Willard H. Miller and his Pentagon briefings.

We only have Kean's word for this.  No EVIDENCE is given to support
this claim.


 In an announcement to promote the lecture, Pensacola/Gulf Breeze
 MUFON stated: "Commander Miller's accomplishments are varied and
 worldwide. He has been a public school English teacher, a
 decorated Vietnam War veteran, and worked for Honeywell, Inc.
 and SAIC (Science Applications International Corporation). In
 1989, he was voluntarily recalled to active duty to help the
 Department of Defense (DoD) stand up its "War on Drugs." He has
 served as a DoD Civil Service Program Analyst/Technology Support
 Specialist, and has worked with U.S. Atlantic Command, U.S.
 Space Command, and many other military agencies and companies on
 projects including nuclear, natural,  technological disaster
 mitigation, WW-III contingencies, and Space Warfare. He has held
 clearances for Top Secret (TS) and Sensitive Compartmented
 Information (SCI).  Commander Miller is knighted in the
 Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (Knights
 Templars), the oldest military knighthood (1118 AD).

Let's see...as anyone who has been on this list for any amount of time
will know, there are many intriguing connections listed above that
could bolster the suspicion that this guy is a disinformationalist...  ;-)

Honeywell.

SAIC.

"...volunarily recalled to active duty to help the Department of
Defense...stand up its 'War on Drugs.'..."

"...worked with...many other military agencies and companies on
projects including nuclear, natural,  technological disaster
mitigation, WW-III contingencies, and Space Warfare..."

"...knighted in the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem (Knights Templars)..."

These connections go further to bolstering the theory that the
supposed ET invasion is a totally concocted fantasy to further the
agenda of the New World Order, as an excuse acceptable by the public
to voluntarily give up what little rights the public still has,
rather than to bolster the theory that UFOs exist and are piloted
by beings from outer space...


 Greer, whose state of mind has openly been questioned on the
 internet in a March 4, 1998 report by Charles T. Oliphant III
 - see UFO Updates:

 http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/mar/d20-001.shtml

 is said to have remote-viewed extraterrestrials inside Mt.
 Blanca during a night training session in The San Luis Valley
 [Colorado].

THIS is your 'evidence'?

How do you know this guy doesn't have an overactive imagination,
or was outright hallucinating?  Or is a con artist, spinning an
elaborate lie to convince people to by his $125 UFO kit?  And if
he is legit, if he sincerely is psychically communing with other
beings, what PROOF is there that these other beings aren't lying?
What EVIDENCE is there that these supposed beings come from outer
space, other than their supposed claim?

I can say that I remote-view Elvis every night.  We have long
conversations, including him telling me how he faked his death and
flew to Alpha Centauri in a Super Top Secret space program that
was never made public.  Elvis contacted me because he wants me to
let the public know that he and his comrades are now under attack
by ET rap artists, and he wants our help.

Would you believe me?


 Had the reporter that prepared the May 21, 2000 Boston Globe
 article, Leslie Kean [who also told Whitley Strieber of her
 suspicions of being held 'under surveillance' and also dealing
 with computer problems while preparing her UFO report],

Again, reporter 

Re: [CTRL] UNDERGROUND TUNNELS__GIF image 679x480 pixels

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

Nickey:

Presumably you posted this in a pathetic attempt at presenting
'evidence'...

But there isn't a shred of it...


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or
 without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so
 many are having.  As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil
 intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths.

But that has no bearing on whether these entities are physical beings from
another planet.

Why do you presume that physical beings from another planet would be 'good' in
the moral sense?  Why would ETs magically be able to 'awaken deep spiritual
truths'?  Does coming from another planet magically bestow divinity?

If 'contact' is occurring, it could just as likely be with extra-dimensional
beings that have been here all along, and aren't from outerspace.  And these
beings could just as easily be 'evil', and conning the easily duped into
believing that they are 'good'


   There is a difference in depth between an mc experience and a spiritual one
 - the flavors and tones are distinct - though sometimes off only by a few
 degrees.

This is a subjective analysis, and is not evidence.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I could tell you that I and untold others have been repeatedly
abducted by motorcycle gangsor Arab terrorists...or Satanists...
or leprechauns...

 Which brings up an interesting question. centuries old stories of being
 "Taken" by "Faeries" bear a startling resemblance to modern abduction
 stories, even missing time.

Yes, which was one of the reasons I chose the 'leprechaun' comparison.

That is something the Jacques Vallee also points out...but I'm sure Mr.
Webre will also take credit for that...   ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] UNDERGROUND TUNNELS__GIF image 679x480 pixels

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Dale Stonehouse" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Presumably you posted this in a pathetic attempt at presenting
 'evidence'...

 But there isn't a shred of it...

 Using June's own logic, there is no "evidence" that she exists.

You're right...I'm a figment of your imagination.  ;-)


 And if she does, I suggest the list owner ban her from the list. Who needs
 to read vile bile like this day after day after day? Not me.

Well, I've been here from almost Day One of the list's creation, so I
suspect I'll be here long after you're gone.

If you feel a call for scholarly research and the end of posting wild
speculation as 'fact' represents 'vile bile', then I suggest this is NOT
the list for you.


June

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[CTRL] Another take on UFOs, as 'valid' as some others....

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

...at least as valid an opinion, with as valid (or invalid) 'documentation'
as Nickey Molloy provides

June
---

UFOs, ANGELS AND DEMONS, OH MY!
http://www.briefme.com/a/article.cgi?id=23297uid=148141
UFOs, Aliens, Antichrist  Bible Prophecy gives a comprehensive and
citation-heavy view of the theory that UFOs and other extraterrestrial
phenomenon are actually the actions of assorted legions of fallen
angels. While I'm not sure whether the argument is particularly
compelling, I can tell you that it is exhaustively researched. The site
is filled with obscure scripture, heavily annotated with literal
translations of some of the more loosely interpreted words and phrases.
The sources of many of these theories are often cross-referenced with
their availablity on Amazon.com for those who might be interested in
obtaining the primary sources. I should, however, commend the
webmasters for keeping the site itself focused on the information at
hand rather than the pitching of related products. Ultimately, the site
paints an interesting picture, presenting us with a strange mix of the
theological, the metaphysical, and the scientific.
Eric Stoveken, http://www.briefme.com/e/eric3056.html

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 It is good to see someone using their sharp powers of analysis and knowledge
 gathered on this subject..

Then why don't we ever see YOU ever using 'sharp powers of analysis', instead
of posting the personal opinions and wild speculations you try to pass off as
'evidence'?


 Paul Williams Interviews Betty Hill

Interviews aren't evidence.


 This is an interview with Ms. Betty Hill. Ms. Hill and her husband Barney
 had an extraordinary experience in 1961.

Mrs. Hill and her husband had what they later came to believe was an alien
abduction.  There is no EVIDENCE of this.  All there is are their recounting
of events, recorded on tape, while under hypnotic regression.

If Betty and Barney Hill WERE abducted, they could as easily been abducted
as part of a military mind control experiment, run solely by homo sapiens,
with no outer space beings involved at all, except as the cover story.


 Here's a great story. Michelle believes that when she was a teen, she was
 kidnapped by people in military uniform, raped by an reptilian being, and
 then examined.

"...believes that when she was a teen..." is not evidence...it is her admitted
BELIEF of what happened.


 Ms. Cuccia believes she's experienced contact with extra-terrestrials.

Again, we have a 'believer'.  And again, no evidence.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I personally believe that yes, beings from elsewhere in the universe
visiting here would be, by definition, moral and enlightened beings - that
there is a fail-safe-clause in the ordered universe that allows only beings
of a certain spiritual level to achieve certain technologies.

Oh, so using that logic, western society is more moral than South
Pacific tribes, because western society developed the A-bomb and the
Pacific islanders did not...therefore, we were morally justified in
forceably evicting the residents of the Bikini atolls from their
centuries-old home so that we could use it for our nuclear tests...

Were the developers of Iron Age tools morally superior to their Stone
Age ancestors?  Were their Bronze Age decendents then morally superior
to themselves?

What evidence do you have for this universal 'fail-safe-clause'?


If one thinks
of imagination as having a direct correlation to
inventiveness, then this is not so far-fetched.

Imagination does not need a moral compass.  Some of the most inventive
people were social and moral bastards.


I postulate that this is indeed an organized universe with
rules, regulations and heirarchies, and no, I have no evidence for
such..

Fine, as long as it is clear that what you post is your own belief, and
that you aren't trying to present it as 'the real truth'...

And as you probably have figured out, I disagree with your assessment.


So it wouldn't be that divinity is magically bestowed, but that to be free
to roam the universe, a civilization would have to achieve a certain level
of enlightenment first in order that harm might not spread.

I don't particularly believe it.  I feel that if there are beings on
other planets, they are no better or no worse, in a moral sense, than
we ourselves are.  And just as Europeans spread untold disease and
misery into the other continents they 'discovered' and conquered for
their rulers -- sometimes wittingly, sometimes unwittingly -- so too I
feel that if beings from other planets come here, they will be just as
likely to do so for the same reasons human beings have gone exploring
--whether for patriotism, to seek riches, or to spread 'the true
religion'...


If they are extra-dimensional, how logical is it to postulate that they may
have been here all along, when we don't even understand the nature of
extra-dimensions?  Where is the "here" in the "extra-
dimensional beings that have been here all along?  Cleveland?  They could
be evil, duping people into believing in their goodness.  They could be
evil and accidentally causing spiritual awakening.

You presume that what a person is undergoing is an 'awakening', when in
fact they may be being conned...led to believe it is an 'awakening'
when it is really nothing but psychic manipulation.

Why do you think run-of-the-mill con artists are so successful?  Because
they don't go around advertising their ill-intent, rather they are quite
skillful in making their mark believe they have the mark's best interest at
heart.

What we may have here is a psychic con game...


I don't think it's very likely.  Is there some evidence
for the presumption that if extra-dimensional beings exist that they are
all evil?

"By their fruits you shall know them".  What GOOD are these beings
really accomplishing?  Seems to me the message the 'good' ones always
impart have to do with humanity giving up its individuality, and
forming some variation of a 'new world order'.  Sounds very fascist to
me...and I use that term deliberately.


June




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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de
 plumes is because are in danger of their lives.

And you have EVIDENCE to support this claim?   ;-)


 They were intelligence officers and we don't
 really need to know their personal details.

Yes we do, if we are to adequately and accurately assess their credibility.


 Other intelligence officers can
 know if they are speaking the truth or not and then it spreads from
 there.

By that argument, you destroy any credibility these supposed 'ex-intelligence
officers' may have...because one would presume that if they were indeed
going public with such secret and shocking news, that if there old comrade
in arms didn't 'off' them, all those aliens under all those military bases
WOULD

If we HAVE been invaded by aliens who are being held under military bases,
I for one am not going to lose sleep at night if they are so ineffectual as
to not be able to silence all these supposed 'ex-intelligence officers' from
revealing all these supposed secrets


 The information they present us with is generally self evident,
 because of a consistancy that others keep verifying,

The same statement can be made of disinformation and propaganda.  Disinfo and
propaganda only work if they have 'consistancy that others keep verifying'...
because the very 'facts' that are used to 'verify' is itself disiniformation...


 that they do have experience in inside covert operations.

So they CLAIM, but what EVIDENCE is there that their claims are valid?


There are photos and documents in these books.

Photos and documents can easily be faked.


 You are looking for proof
 of someone's rank and their name before you believe them. Yet you are doing
 the same thing by hiding under a false name.

The difference is that Tenebroust isn't making any wild claims about being
an ex-CIA agent, to having inside knowledge of Top Secret information regarding
space aliens, etc.

If someone is going to make extraordinary claims, they better be prepared to
provide background information on themselves, and documentation to support
their claims.  If they don't, then anything they claim should be taken with a
grain of salt...


 Please - you don't even sign your posts!!

And how do we know that "Nicky Molloy" isn't a pseudonym?

And yes, I use a 'fake ID' as part of my email address, and only sign with
my first name...but again, it is not _I_ who is making extraordinary claims
regarding my background, nor claiming to have 'The Truth' regarding space
aliens.


 OK but let me say you did get warned, but took too long looking for
 verifiable factual evidence to your satisfaction.

Because YOU present it as 'fact'.  No one would object if what you post
you clearly labeled as SPECULATION, what we object to is you posting it
as if there were hard EVIDENCE to support your speculation.  So far you
have not provided one iota of evidence.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I'm sorry to have to tell you this

No you're not...


 but really this is tiring and its a darn
 less boring than reading you saying the same confudsed comments every post.

"Confudsed"?


 If you can't/won't grasp the situation and get your own information which is
 readily available on the net, I can't help you.

You are the one who is presumably 'confused'

Sure, there is loads of 'information' on the Internet.  But information is
not necessarily EVIDENCE.  And very often it is disinformation.


 Provide evidence that there
 aren't aliens here because if you investigate, there is more evidence that
 there is company down in underground bases than not.

You are asking us to prove a negative.

Prove that I did NOT shoot JFK.

Prove that I did NOT have a torrid affair with Jacques Vallee, whose
whispered pillowtalk to me revealed all the secrets of UFOs that he knew...
not to mention some interesting gossip regarding Mr. Webre...

Prove that I was NOT at Woodstock in August of 1969...

Prove that I did NOT walk on the moon with Neil Armstrong that same month...

There is absolutely NO 'evidence' supporting what you purport to be FACT...
there IS information, of various degrees of credibility.  But again,
information is not necessarily EVIDENCE.


 I"ve been studying the
 situation for at least 10 years, and have personal experiences

Can you prove that they were NOT hallucinations?

Can you prove that they were NOT the effects of mind control?


 and know UNTOLD others who have had dealings with Ets.

The same questions apply to these 'untold others'.  And unless you're
claiming to have had dealings with these same ETs, all you have is
hearsay.

I could tell you that I and untold others have been repeatedly
abducted by motorcycle gangsor Arab terrorists...or Satanists...
or leprechauns...

How would you know that our claims were NOT true?


 If there are 6 billion people on this planet, untold thousands of UFOs
 flying about and still we stubbornly believe we are the only planet
 inhabited in this solar system,

No one has said that.

What we are saying is that you and the other 'true believers' have yet
to present any HARD EVIDENCE to support the claim that UFOs are powered
by ETs...

And tell me...of all the "billions and billions" (to borrow Carl Sagan's
famous phrase) of planets not only in our own solar system, but throughout
the universe...why have your supposed ETs chosen this measly planet?
What is it about Earth and/or homo sapiens that intrigues them so much
that they ignore all the other planets and concentrate on this one?


 and any of these UFOs out there could have
 colonized the whole solar system by now,

"Could have" isn't the same as "did".


 CASE CLOSED

You failed to even successfully open it.


 Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de
 plumes is because are in danger of their lives.

 And you have EVIDENCE to support this claim?   ;-)

I notice you failed to respond to this.  What's the matter...ET got your
tongue?

Or is it because you DON'T have any evidence to back up this claim?


 They were intelligence officers and we don't
 really need to know their personal details.

 Yes we do, if we are to adequately and accurately assess their credibility.

Again, no answer.  You take the coward's way out by responding by attacking
those who question you, because you know you can't back up any of your claims.

You also failed to address my question as to why these supposed ex-intelligence
officers aren't being silenced by either their ex-comrades-in-arms, or by the
ETs themselves.  Are your ETs that ineffectual?  Or is it because these supposed
ex-intelligence officers are really LYING...


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 It isn't the intellect alone that is equips us with discernment.  The
 personal accounts of such people as Whitley Strieber, Betty Andreasson Lucas
 and others, including those accounts outlined in John Mack, M.D.'s books are
 quite moving and compelling.

Agreed.  Their various accounts perhaps do point to contact with extraterrestial
beings.

But there could be other explanations as well, and we would be well served to
constantly keep that in mind.  What Strieber, Lucas, et al have experienced
could perhaps be what manipulators behind the scenes WISH them to believe they
experienced.

Smoke and mirrors.  Don't concentrate on the magic trick on stage, look for
who's pulling the strings and pushing the buttons behind the curtain...

As a side note:  Betty Andreasson Lucas now lives in my homestate of
Connecticut, and has written about strange occurances happening around where
she lives.

I TOO have had strange occurances happen in the same neck of the woods.  But
in my case, while the events/sensations were strange, I never attributed
what I saw or heard to beings from outer space, but suspect the occurances
originated from the military -- there IS an Air National Guard station in
the area...


June

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Re: [CTRL] stray kittens puppies fatal victims of L.A.'s DNC Convention of Pinkos

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

The subject line of this post is inflammatory and misleading.

Strays are routinely euthanized in every city in the nation.
If it bothers you so much, I suggest you would be better
served expending your energies in activities to help reduce
the exploding population of unwanted dogs and cats in this
nation.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
English people seldom
get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag.

 Maybe they taste bad.

Remember the old Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"?

Perhaps the space aliens know UK cuisine sucks...   ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Carl Amedio" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve
 One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World
 Order?
 Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender
 our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to
 combat the ET Menace.  Watch and wait ET one day will manifest themselves by
 the thousands in our skies.

Didn't our ol' prez Ronnie Reagan babble about something similar during his
reign?  Something to the effect that if the Earth was threatened from outer
space, we'd all forget our differences and become one?


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO should not necessarily imply ET ?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, it certainly is good to have Alfred here.  Since he has read and knows about 
every aspect of
UFOlogy, I strongly encourage all people who doubt the ET hypothesis of UFO origins 
to just hang up your
hats and drop it in the face of his insurmountable knowledge on the matter.  I know 
that I am intimidated
by his "I know more than you, so you should just shut up" attitude.  If we were smart 
maybe we should just
declare him the winner.

Not only does he know all, but he's instructed all the well-known
authors in the field, who presumably would be still hotwiring
computers for a living if they hadn't availed themselves of his
unending fount of knowledge...

Strange that none of them mention him in their acknowledgements
prefacing their well-known works   ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] Physical evidence of Alien Abduction.

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Do I have "glassy spheres" in my dust?  I don't remember being abducted, but then 
again
maybe they just made me forget.  I better get my dust checked, and if it has got 
these spheres then I'm
running right to a certified regression hypnotist to force my self to remember the 
hideous abduction that I
didn't have, BECAUSE if the dust is there I MUST HAVE been abducted.  Right?

I think dust bunnies are ETs...

They're abducting humans because they really want our socks...

That's why we all have at least one orphaned sock in our drawers...
the extraterrestial dust bunnies have kidnapped the other sock.


June  (who knows orphaned socks are EVIDENCE of extraterrestial dust bunnies)

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Re: [CTRL] UFO should not necessarily imply ET ?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   It is perfectly appropriate for someone to bring their qualifications and
 experience to the table during a discussion.  June and Mr. Webre interpret
 Vallee differently.  That Mr. Webre knew him and worked with him adds weight
 to his interpretation.

Mr. Webre CLAIMS to have known and 'worked' with Jacques Vallee.

I don't hear Monsieur Vallee weighing in here with his agreement.

I'd like Mr. Webre to tell us which of Monsieur Vallee' books we should look
in to find Monsieur Vallee acknowledging Mr. Webre's vast contributions.

I suggest everyone read Jaques Vallee's books for themselves, especially
"Messengers of Deception", and come to their OWN conclusions as to what
Monsieur Vallee's conclusions are...


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA
 agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject
 instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems..

But how would you know whether I am or am not a CIA agent?  And that perhaps
I'm an agent with an agenda?

Or just a regular Jane Doe with an agenda, which I help further by CLAIMING
I am a CIA agent, when in fact I am not?

You don't.  You just accept at face value, with no research or critical
analysis, anybody's claim that parallels your own entrenched belief system.

And THAT, dear lady, is dogma...


 As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I'm a Christian and
 nothing else, the rest is your 'belief system' you so gladly promote.

Dogma comes in many flavors.  Some of it comes dressed as traditional,
mainstream religiosity.  Still other comes cloaked as a belief in ETs,
when there is no EVIDENCE for the existence of ETs.


 Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than
 those who have personally experienced Ets? Why trust anybody who is sitting
 reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an
 induced one. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality'
 of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this.

Bulloney.  I have 4 decades of reading on the subject.  Readings encompassing
ALL theories, unlike you who put on blinders and refuse to consider anything
except your own dogma.

There is not one obstensible 'abductee' who has ever provided hard evidence
that what they experienced was due to the actions of beings who flew to Earth
in a spaceship from some other physical place in the universe.

That is not to say that those who claim to have been abducted are lying, or
are hallucinating.  I'm prepared to accept that the majority had SOMETHING
happen to them.  But there is no EVIDENCE that it was ET instigated...only
that what they remember afterwards includes a supposed ET scenario.

Memories can be implanted.  There could be a very mundane, earthly agency
afoot with these abductions, and agency that is utilizing false ET scenarios
to cover their tracks, and perhaps achieve their own agenda.

Again, testimony by any number of people claiming to have been abducted by
space beings is not EVIDENCE that ETs exist.



 But we do 'believe'
 from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are
 faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. But there are geniune
 abductions because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other
 planets and brought back souvenirs.

No, certain people have thoughts, which they interpret as memories, that
seemed to encompass travel in a spaceship, when in fact it could be mind
control and/or implanted false memory.

Two cases in point:

The first entails what was one of the first cases of 'alien encounter' and
possible abduction, which occurred somewhere in South America in the late
1950s or early 1960s (it's been over 2 decades since I read about this, so
I don't remember the exact country -- it may have been Brazil, or perhaps
Venezuela)...

A man was traveling from a distant town to his home town at night (this
now is such a common scenario it seems cliche'd, but at the time this was
a new phenomenom)...saw a strange light in the sky, next thing he knew he
was farther down the road than where he remembered, had an hour or so of
missing time, etc. etc.

He had no memory of what happened during the missing time, but was very
nervous, to the point that he became ill.  When he finally sought medical
help (his ailment was psychologically based, not due to any 'implant'),
he began to 'spontaneously remember' what had happened to him during that
missing time

It was the typical scenario...the light came down, of course it was a
spaceship...his car engine 'mysteriously' died, he got out of the car
to see better, got met by space aliens and brought on board their ship
where they did any number of terrible experiments on him, only relieved
by a sexy, buxom blonde coming in at the end and having sex with him (he
claimed they forced him to have an erection)...

This was roundly reported in all the UFO and 'strange events' publications
of the day...probably even got printed up in a book or two as 'proof' that
ETs were coming here and doing things to us...

But then another gentleman came forward...

Seems he was an acquaintance of the first gentleman...not close acquaintances,
but they knew each other in passing, and more importantly the 2nd guy knew
the vehicle the 1st guy drove...

And seems the 2nd guy was driving that same road that same night...remembered
the 1st guy passing him on the road...the 2nd guy was driving somewhat slower,
plus had to stop for gas...so he was a couple of miles behind the 1st guy...

The 2nd guy never saw any strange light in the sky...he DID see a strange
glow of lights ahead 

[CTRL] Evidence that ETs really ARE here!

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

Boy, talk about synchronicity!  Just got the following post today...

June

- Original Message -
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 1:05 PM
Subject: "The Alien Dance!"


 http://funnyemailcards.com/alien_dance.htm

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Re: [CTRL] Why are people being abducted and bred from?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 This should shed a bit of light on who is abducting people.N

It sheds nothing.  There is not one iota of EVIDENCE to support
his claims, only his supposed memory.

We've covered this territory before.  People's minds can be
manipulated so that they seemingly 'remember' events which in
fact never happened.

He may or may not have actually experienced what he describes.
But there is no EVIDENCE to support what he describes.


June

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Physical evidence of Alien Abduction.

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Physical evidence of Alien Abduction. Photos on url. Thanks Eagle.

No evidence of 'Alien Abduction' [sic] at all.

Evidence perhaps of some sort of phenomenon which fuses common silicates
commonly found in household dust into glassy bulbs.  But it tells us
nothing about what CAUSED it.

We are not told of any CONTROL group included in the study.  Presumably
only the housedust of people claiming to have been abducted by aliens
has been studied, which renders the 'study' meaningless.

How many people who DON'T claim to have been abducted have had their
housedust similarly analyzed?  How do we know that everyone of us doesn't
have similarly fused glass amongst our own housedust?  We don't...

And even if it turned out that only those who claim abduction have the
strange housedust, it doesn't 'prove' space aliens are behind the event.
No element unknown on Earth is claimed to have been found, only common
silicate fused into glass, which could be done by any number of earthly
entities.  Microwaves could explain both induced hallucinations of a
supposed space alien abduction, AND the resulting fused glass in the
housedust.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Elian: Wye the Move?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

 DURING MY LUNCH BREAK
 ON THE RADIO 610 WIOD AM (NEWS STATION), THEY STATED THAT THE
 PRESS WERE WITNESS TO ABUSE FROM JUAN MIGUEL.  WHILE AWAITING A
 PRESS CONFERENCE, REPORTERS HEARD ARGUING IN A CLOSED DOOR ROOM
 WHERE JUAN MIGUEL AND HIS FAMILY WERE.  PER THE REPORTERS, JUAN
 MIGUEL WAS HEARD DISPUTING W/ ELIAN BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT PUT ON
 HIS "YOUNG PIONEER" COMMUNIST UNIFORM. DURING THE ARGUMENT, JUAN
 MIGUELS WIFE (ELIANS STEPMOM) WAS HEARD TRYING TO GET IN THE
 MIDDLE IN DEFENSE OF ELIAN.  SHE NOW SPORTS A BRUISE ACROSS HER
 FACE."

If this report is true as stated, then the press were NOT witnesses
to 'abuse from Juan Miguel'...they supposedly overheard a family
argument, and supposedly noticed a supposed bruise on the current
Senora Gonzalez afterwards.

The writer of the article (and if the report is true, the news
department of radio station WIOD) then makes a leap of logic that
Senora Gonzalez's bruise was due to spousal abuse.  But the report
admits that no one SAW her receive a blow from her husband, in fact
it doesn't even mention that the reporters HEARD her getting hit.

"A bruise across her face" is not the usual bruise one sees in a
case of spousal abuse, where the blow is usually from a closed fist
to a specific area of the face -- an eye, the nose, mouth, etc.
One bruise which crosses the face (if the report is accurate) suggests
either a fall, or being hit with a long object, such as a stick or bat.
As such, if she was hit by anybody, I'd suspect a misbehaving Elian...


 THEY DON'T SAY WHY THEY WANT TO MOVE.  THE NEIGHBORS ARE
 COMPLAINING OF TOO MUCH FIGHTING GOING ON (JUAN MIGUEL  WIFE)

There ARE no neighbors to the Wye estate, at least none close enough
to hear any supposed arguing going on between Senor and Senora
Gonzalez.  The whole reason the Wye estate was chosen was due to its
remoteness...

I hear my neighbors arguing all the time (I live in an apartment
complex)...no one's ever said that because these people argue, they
don't deserve custody of their own kids...


 Hi!  I interviewed a man that lived in Cardenas and was very
 close to J Miguel and his family.  He confirmed that J Miguel
 hates the system and wanted badly to leave the island.

Hearsay.  Inadmissable in a court as 'evidence'...


 When I
 questioned him about the abuse he stated he did not know about
 the abuse.  I can assure you that he was lying.

Oh, now we have supposed reports from psychics, who can read the
minds of people and fathom when they are lying and when they are
not.

We are not given the Cuban's exact words, nor by what manner this
psychic was able to fathom the Cuban was lying...


 You have to understand that Cubans that have lived under a
 communist system are not like u or I.  They live in constant fear
 and think twice before they speak.

Again, we have a psychic able to read minds.  This person 'knows'
exactly how a couple of million Cubans think and feel.

I wouldn't even make the claim that "Germans that [sic] lived under
the Nazi regime were not like u [sic] and I.  They lived in constant
fear and thought twice before they spoke..."

That statement would be true of SOME Germans living in Nazi Germany,
but not all.  Simularly, the statement of the psychic is true of
SOME Cubans, but not all of them...some Cubans are quite satisfied
with the status quo, much to the chagrin of the fanatical anti-
Castro-ites


 One thing is true my dear Joan.  Fidel's hands are long, very
 long.  If the man that I interviewed states that the abuse is
 true even in the US his life could be in danger.

Or maybe there is no abuse.

The fanatics know that the only legal leg they now have is to
'prove' Juan Miguel Gonzalez is an unfit father...

Interesting that nothing was said about supposed abuse all the
months the fanatical supporters of the Miami gang called for
Juan Miguel to come to the U.S. to see his son in person...

Only when Elian's father DID come, and express a desire to return
to Cuba with Elian, did this claim of supposed abuse arise...


 Obviously there is something to this.  Obviously Juan Miguel is
 an unhappy man and has taken it out on those closest to him.

Sorry, but this is NOT 'obvious' to those of us who utilize critical
thinking and analysis.  It is only 'obvious' to the Miami gang and
its fanatical supporters who are grasping at any straw in their
attempt to 'legally' kidnap Elian...


 Until and unless he can ever speak freely we will never know the
 truth.

The problem with the above statement is that it presupposes that when
Elian says he wants to stay in the U.S., he is speaking 'freely', and
when he says he wants to return to Cuba, he is not

Yet the fanatical anti-Castro-ites can't change the fact that when
Elian was first rescued, on the VERY DAY he was rescued, he was shown
on TV saying he wanted to return to Cuba...and therefore shows the
REAL feelings of this child, before any faction has 'gotten' to him...


 But one thing is certain: neither the Clinton 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: [RMNEWS] HANTA VIRUS AND NEW MEXICO FIRES

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

Rodents are the vector that spreads Hanta virus.  Any rodents
that don't die in the fires will 'spread' the virus into the
areas they escape to, if the virus doesn't already reside in
those areas.

I suggest everyone look up 'virus' in a good encyclopedia, to
educate themselves on what a virus IS, and how it 'lives' and
spreads...instead of wasting time sending posts to email lists
musing about 'does fire kill viruses?' and such...


June

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 There is absolutely NOTHING within any of the information posted as "evidence" for 
aliens that proves that
there are aliens.  The best it does is give good evidence for the existence of UFO's 
and the fact that they
are damned mysterious and MIGHT have an extraterrestrial origin.  There is NOTHING, 
not one JOT of evidence
for the existence of aliens.  I don't think anyone is denying the reality of UFO's 
themselves, and that is
all that this information provides evidence for.

Exactly.

There's something damned strange going on in our skies
(and often beneath our seas and lakes), which seemingly
has been going on for decades, if not centuries

But what the EXACT NATURE of such phenomenon IS, remains
to be proveneverything else is just speculation


June

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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
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Re: [CTRL] the problem with aliens

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   I believe strongly based on what I've read, learned, experienced and seen
 in conjunction with  my intuition after years of seeking such information.
 What is the EVIDENCE to the contrary?

First off, I must again point out that it is YOU who espouse an extraterrestial
basis for UFOs, and as such it is YOUR job to present such evidence to US, not
vice versa.

Secondly, you ask us to prove a negative, e.g. "What is the evidence to the
contrary?".

I could claim that UFOs are 'manned' by the Keebler elves, and that they use
chocolate chip cookies rejected in the QA process as their fuel source.

Can YOU present evidence to the contrary?  Evidence, remember, not personal
opinion...

I could claim that space aliens assassinated JFK

Can YOU present evidence to the contrary?


What is there besides possible alternative explanations?

Depends on what you define as 'alternative'.

Within the 'alternative' umbrella, we have the possibility that UFOs are
flown by extra-dimensional beings who have co-existed with us for
millenia...beings who are NOT from other planets, but from another
dimension here on Earth.

Outside of the 'alternative' catch-all, we have the possibility that it
is a mind-control experiment by solely Earth-based agencies.  There are
more than a few cases which point to this possibility...


   To support your assertions, you are not required to prove a negative, you
 are only required to prove that the unidentified flying objects are of human,
 terrestrial origin.  Since this seems to be your belief akin to religiosity,
 I ask you to provide evidence for it.

No, what you miss is that we don't 'believe' any one thing...we entertain any
number of possibilities.  It is YOU who push only one answer, but provide
nothing but the dogma of your new religion in an inadequate attempt to
substantiate your claims.


   There is no proof that all are flying objects of terrestrial origin just as
 there is no proof (that I know of) that all are of extra-terrestrial origin.

Eureka!  You ADMIT that there is no proof of the extraterrestial claim.  It is
only one of many possible answers.


 There is EVIDENCE sufficient to support the theory that they ARE of
 extra-terrestrial origin.

No, there is NO evidence of an ET origin, and you and the other ET-true-
believers have presented none.  You have presented OPINION, and called it 'fact'.


June

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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I don't know about the research on the Betty Hill star maps. Tell the
 story. I'll listen.

From what I've read (and I suspect I have many more decades of reading
on the matter than Samantha), for years the 'star map' that Betty Hill
drew was touted as 'proof' of her encounter.

But after about 20 years, someone finally got the bright idea to present
the 'map' to a group of astronomers, astrophysicists, etc.  They to a
person pronounced the map as 'worthless' if it was meant as a 'road map'
by which to steer a space vehicle (which is what Betty Hill claimed she
was told by the aliens)...

The map is 2-dimensional -- and more importantly, Betty described the
'chart' from which she drew her 'map' as also being 2-dimensional.  This
makes it totally worthless for its claimed use, as someone actually
'driving' a space vehicle would need a 3D guide to the universe...

That's not to say I think the Hills were con artists who created a
deliberate hoax.  I believe that they sincerely believed what they said
happened to them indeed happened.  But that does not mean that what they
BELIEVED happened indeed actually happened, in an objective sense.  Only
that SOMETHING happened to them, which afterwards they remembered as an
'alien abduction' scenario.

Clues to what perhaps the real nature of their abduction may have been
are hidden in their own descriptions of what they remembered...


June

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   This is like trying to spar with a shapeshifter.  I claim there is evidence
 to support this theory and am told I haven't provided any.  I provide some
 and am told I haven't PROVEN anything.  I don't have PROOF, only evidence!

You don't even have evidence.  You have OPINION, sifted through your own opinion,
which you then present to us with the label of 'evidence'...when in fact it is
nothing except subjective opinion.


   I say there is evidence that points to the theory of the ET origin of UFOs
 and I am told "NO, 'The best it does is give good evidence for the existence
 of UFO's and the fact that they are damned mysterious and MIGHT have an
 extraterrestrial origin'" - which is ALL I HAVE BEEN SAYING IN THE FIRST
 PLACE.

No you haven't.  You have been arguing that UFOs are nothing BUT ET in origin.
What the rest of us have been pointing out is that there is no EVIDENCE for an
ET claim, and that other explanations may be at the root of the phenomenon...


   I BELIEVE, in my personal OPINION that the evidence does more than suggest
 UFOs MIGHT have an ET origin.  I BELIEVE the evidence suggests UFOs DO have
 an ET origin.

And we are pointing out that your BELIEF SYSTEM is coloring your judgement,
because in fact nothing you have presented leads to an ET-as-the-sole-
cause answer


   I can't prove to anyone via the internet that I even exist.  I can't PROVE
 here that I am real or human.  I MIGHT be a computer software program
 designed to mimic a human.  I KNOW I cannot prove the ET origin of UFOs.  I
 can provide evidence to suggest it and use my logic and information to argue
 in support of my THEORIES but that is all I can do.

And that is fine, as long as you keep it constantly in mind that what you are
arguing for is only a THEORY, and not necessarily the one-and-only 'answer'...


   Quit putting words in my mouth.  I am very clear on this, and have been.

The words of a 'true believer'...and your previous words to the contrary, show
that you in fact BELIEVE in your THEORY as FACT, and anyone who disagrees with
your dogma is a heretic...


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "MICHAEL SPITZER" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 First of all the Dogon Tribe's star origin and stellar
 mythology may, indeed, have been faked.

 That's crap.

And your EVIDENCE that it's 'crap'?


 beyond Earth?  Even if the Dogon record actual alien
 visitation, which I doubt, it does nothing to support the
 same today.

 

 It does a lot to say that "they" HAVE been here, no?

Possibly.  But the point being made is that just because 'they'
MAY have been here in the past does not give a sufficient basis
to presume that 'they' are still here today...


June

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think what you are expecting for a fact here June is for someone to hand
you personally a souvenir from one of the space aliens and for you to get
it analysed in a lab.

No, what I am expecting is for you and the other 'true believers' to drop
your dogma, and realize that without such a 'souvenir' other explanations
are just as plausible, or implausible, as the ET hypothesis...


We who post Et info here are not trying to convert you, I
think it is for the benefit of those who already know what is going on with
Ets and wish to further their knowledge.

The problem is, you have already decided ETs are the one and only answer,
and refuse to consider other possibilities...


If you can't include it in a
conspiracy theory, then you need to look further yourself. There is said to
be about 13,000 Ets just under Dulce alone.

Said by whom?

And how do you know that whomever is providing you this information isn't in
fact part of a disinformation campaign?  Have you actually SEEN these
supposed 13 thousand ETs under Dulce?


military insiders and there is more than enough of that about. Try putting
Branton through search and getting your own information. He was a CIA agent
and liason officer to the Ets. He knows Dulce very well.

Have you seen this guy's credentials, to verify that he indeed worked for
the CIA (may be hard, because those guys don't usually go around advertising
their association)...and even if his claims of being a CIA agent are legit,
why do you take what he claims at face value?  There is just as much
probability that he is part of some disinformation campaign...

I could tell you that I am also a CIA agent and liason officer who knows
Dulce very well, and can tell you that there are absolutely NO ETs at Dulce.

Would my claim be 'true'?  How would you know?


It would be pretty tiring if everyone who didn't understand something had
to have to more proof presented each time someone didn't get it.. I can
just suggest keep reading what does get posted and learn, just like
everyone else does. See how it fits into the bigger picture. There is more
than enough evidence of people being implanted - there are X rays and
implants have been removed and analyzed. One dosen't need to think
believing in Ets is a religion just to learn implants are being put into a
large per cent of the population and that they couldn't be from this earth.

But what EVIDENCE is there that the supposed implants are ET in origin?
None.

Any number of more earthly agencies could just as well be involved...and
seem the more likely answer


This is a very generalised evaluation of Ets coming here.

That very statement proves my point.  You have not one shred of EVIDENCE to
support an ET claim as the basis for any of the phenomenon, and yet you
believe that ETs are in fact 'coming here'...


I guess you want proof of underground Et bases too?

Yes.  Anything less is just opinion and belief, a subjective interpretation
of limited data.  ETs are only one of many possibilities, not the only one.


I have sent plenty of that
already. If you have deleted them without reading thinking they are
protelytizing a new religion, then you can't complain that factual evidence
has been presented. You missed it.

No, I didn't.  What I read was subjective opinion of opinion, and not one
iota of objective evidence...


June





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[CTRL] Re; [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I agree that the exact nature remains to be proven.  I disagree that
everything else is speculation.

The exact nature of a lot of things remains to be proven - in medicine,
biology, botany, archeology, politics, law, etc etc ad infinitum

Yes, and until something in medicine, biology, botany, archeology, politics,
law, etc etc [sic] is proven, it is purely THEORETICAL.


June

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nurev Ind Research" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm not weird. I'm just drawn that way.

Pretty obscure, but I get it.
Does anyone else?

Yep.  It's a twist on the famous line Jessica Rabbit says in the "Roger
Rabbit" movie...

"I'm not bad...I'm just drawn that way..."


June (also 'just drawn that way'...)  ;-)

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Re: [CTRL] JFK, Marilyn and UFOs

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

This sounds like a synopsis of the late, lamented "Dark Skies"...


June

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[CTRL] Re; [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Andrew Hennessey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From what I've read (and I suspect I have many more decades of reading
on the matter than Samantha), for years the 'star map' that Betty Hill
drew was touted as 'proof' of her encounter.

er, no, june, you don't appear to have read enough.

A lady has recently completed a 3 dimensional model of the betty hill star
map  and it shows that the map is a valid star map with all the
relationships between the various stars converting more accurately from the
original 2D sketch.

Bulloney

Not only have I 'read enough', I'm obviously more well-read than you.

As I previously stated, Betty Hill's 2D map was brought to astronomers,
astrophysicists, etc., who failed to come up with a meaningful 3D version,
even utilizing the best computer hardware and software available.

If people who have degrees and years of experience in the field fail to come
up with a valid and meaningful 3D map, I don't have much faith in something
'a lady' who doesn't have a name, let alone a mention of her qualifications,
comes up with.

Betty Hill's 'map' is an inkblot test...one can come up with any sort of
permutations one wishes when attempting to translate it from 2D to 3D, it
still boils down to the fact that learned astronomers and astrophysicists
consider it bunk.

And perhaps you would like to tell us why the learned Space Brothers were
utilizing the map in 2D?


anyway I thought that the CHINA argument would have made you pause

No, because it's idiotic.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO should not necessarily imply ET ?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "DIG alfred webre" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oh June - you know about Vallee.  Well, what does the eminent Jacques
Vallee have to say about UFOs? What do you think Jacque thinks about UFOs.
Please enlighten us.  Jacques says in interview UFOs might be the
manifestation of Universe mega-intelligence (Gods). That's
extraterrestrial, June.

No it's not.  "Universe mega-intelligence (Gods)" [sic] could as easily be
extra-dimensional as extra-terrestial...and 'might be' is not the same as
'is'...

I suggest you read Vallee's "Messengers of Deception"...


And guess what -
YOU will never get to see a God like that up close and personal.

I personally believe there is only one God, and that God is NOT an ET, as
you define the term.


So why not be like Nessie, and disclose to us where you are coming from.
Do you agree with Jacques Vallee?

I agree with Vallee's conclusions in "Messengers of Deception".


June




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Re: [CTRL] the problem with aliens

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Andrew Hennessey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 yes we have the right to wallow in mud and blud - we can go on taking for
 as long as the reptoids want to hand it out - AUTONOMY is SLAVERY

It's nice to see that Orwell's "1984" is alive and thriving in your cosmology.

For the rest of us, "AUTONOMY is SLAVERY" makes our skin crawl.

A perfect slogan to convince the masses to give up their own power to a few
elites...whether the elites be terrestial, extraterrestial, or pseudo-
extraterrestial...


 I have been trying to contribute to the global freedom effort all my life -
 no-one on this list could want peace on earth and autonomy for mankind more
 - but we have to get real here - we're up against telepathic talents of
 considerable magnitude. How is it you think that with millions of secret
 societies

I might be willing to concede a few, perhaps even dozens, of 'secret
societies', but not 'millions'...

Sort of gives lie to the term 'secret', if there are 'millions' of them...


 I'll bet that you couldn't Vote a Human Politician into power that would be
 of any use at all to the Human Race - pro-human politics are a contradiction.

Not as things stand now, with the 'big two' party system...and the recently
usurped "Reform" Party.

But I DO believe we can take the power back, starting on a local and state level
and then moving on to national and international.

I prefer we homo sapiens decide our own destiny, rather than some beings from
another planet or dimensions.  What you argue for is nothing but colonialism
on a quite literally universal scale...we homo sapiens are apparantly considered
savages who need to be introduced to 'civilization' and 'the one true God' that
these supposed aliens offer.


 The reptoids have AUTONOMY - the autonomy of a stable state of MASTERY over
 their HUMAN SLAVES.

And so you argue for homo sapiens to forego gaining their OWN autonomy, in lieu
of trading one slave state (supposedly being controlled by 'reptoids') for another
slave state (being controlled by supposed 'aliens' of another flavor)...

Slavery is slavery.  "House slaves" in the south prior to the Civil War had much
better living conditions than field slaves...but they were slaves, nonetheless...


June (who doesn't want to trade being a field slave to be a house slave, but
  rather seeks to be a free and autonomous human being)

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That ET-skeptical
conspiracy buffs feel they have the right to call others "kooks" "nuts"
 "whiners" on Internet lists because they espouse the ET hypothesis.

 Which of us said those things? Not me.

Nor I.  What I HAVE said is that I demand EVIDENCE for the allegations that
have been espoused.

So far, we've only been given articles espousing someone's opinion, no
evidence...


 Evidence from metallic parts left by a UFO, whose crystalline structure
 has been shown to be different from any substance on Earth.

 Let's see some. Let's also see some proof it's different from any
 substance known on earth. Let's also see an explanation of why being
 different from any substance on earth makes it ET and not simply a newly
 invented substance.

Let's see evidence of the supposed EXISTENCE of 'metallic parts left by a
UFO', and let us also see evidence of the actual study, including the
written report resulting from the study.  Evidence of the evidence, as it
were...

I could make the following statement:  "Evidence that an extraterrestial
sat down with President Eisenhower and discussed golf while eating donuts,
drinking coffee, and smoking a cigar, shows that extraterrestials have
physiologies similar to humans..."

I could MAKE that statement...but in fact, no such EVIDENCE exists


 Speaking of evidence, there is also LEGAL EVIDENCE.  Citizen's Against
 UFO Secrecy is pursuing a very suggestive legal case in US Federal court
 re: UFOs. They have won some legal victories.

 Indeed. But they have not proved that UFOs are of ET origin.

Yes, all the court case perhaps shows is that there MAY have been a coverup.
It doesn't tell us the exact nature of what may have been covered up...


 Bottom line: Where's the ET? I want to meet him. I want to buy the guy a
 drink and see if I can hire on to his crew. I want off this rock. I'm
 perfectly willing to  swab decks  if it means they'll take me along. I
 could cook Earth food for them.

Watch out, Nessie...you may BE 'Earth food' for them...sort of a 'Chinese
take-out' on a global scale...

Remember the Twilight Zone episode, "How to Serve Man"?  ;-)


June

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Why do you bother being on a list where, by definition, nothing but
 the written word can be exchanged?

I, unlike you, have been on this list for years.

Almost from its very inception.

I joined, and remained, because until recently the majority of
postings adhered to rules of evidence, and personal opinion given
forth as 'fact' was not allowed.  When someone offered an opinion,
it was labeled as such.

Now we have people like you offering unsubstantiated articles written
by others as your claim of 'evidence', when all they are are hearsay,
filtered through subjective opinion.


June

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Re: [CTRL] #1 - WHAT ARE UFOs?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   I don't recall list rules mentioning that we are obliged to track down
 original sources of information and their physical location in order to enjoy
 the privilege of posting articles here.  The standards expected of list
 members who DARE post articles about unidentified flying objects or their
 possible origins exceeds the standards required of list members who post
 anything else on this list.  Why is that?

There is no double standard.  We would expect the same standard of evidence
from someone making a post claiming to know 'for a fact' that the U.N. is
behind the mysterious contrail spraying.  Or that Arab terrorists are
involved.  Or space aliens from Alpha Centauri.

Originally the moderators were more strick in what was allowed on this list.
Unfortunately the calibre has slipped quite a bit in recent years.

It's still better than lists like SNET, which really slid into the toilet.


   However, Bruce Cornet does have an email address.  If you ask nicely, I
 might provide it.  I think you can figure out for yourself how to travel to
 Belgium to view their radar tapes, or to go to France to read a hard copy of
 the COMETA report.

That's not OUR job, but yours.  YOU are the one offering an opinion, for which
you aren't willing to do the necessary work to back up.

You have a perfect right to accept any manner of extraordinary claims at face
value.  The rest of us don't.

I am perfectly willing to accept any manner of extraordinary claims...but not
at face value.  Give me hard evidence and documentation.

You ET-true-believers are doing nothing but proselytizing a new religion...
expecting us to go on nothing but faith, and labeling all who question your
dogma as heretics.


June

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Re: [CTRL] the problem with aliens

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Andrew Hennessey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Powerful Dark beings have been in charge for a long time - and they plan
 for it to stay that way.

I actually tend to agree with you on that.  But that is my OPINION, based on
my various readings over the years...


 They have access to a larger resource base than the people on this world
 wishing autonomy and freedom.

This I DISAGREE with...again, my OPINION, based on various readings I've
done over the years

They would like us to BELIEVE they are stronger than we are, but that is
wrong...very wrong...which is why they fear us...   ;-)


 because you are of the mindset that there are no ET's or infraterrestrials
 here

I never said that.  What I, and others on this list, HAVE said is that there
is no EVIDENCE that UFOs are anything but terrestial in nature.  They may be
extraterrestial, or 'infraterrestestial', but there is no objective PROOF of
this.

And one SHOULD keep an open mind to all possibilities, including the
possibility that UFOs are part of a terrestial disinformation campaign.


 then it would follow logically that the only solution to this tyranny is
 armed conflict.

It may be the only solution if they turn out to be extraterrestial or
'infraterrestial', too...


 Your problem with aliens is that you believe that there are none about

Again, I've never said that.  Actually, I tend to believe some sort of non-
homo sapien DOES also inhabit this sphere...but I readily admit it as a
BELIEF, and OPINION as it were.  I'm not going about saying that it's the
God-given-gospel-word on the matter.


 My problem with aliens is to motivate the good ones that are about to help

My problem with 'aliens' is that I've never read about a one that makes me
feel as warm and fuzzy about them as you seem to feel.  Even the supposedly
'good' ones seem to treat us paternalistically, and offer a philosophy down-
playing what homo sapiens have, and can, accomplish solely on our own.

How do you know that this planet isn't being used as an insane asylum for
the universe, that this isn't the place where the criminally insane of
outer space get sent to?  That your dear aliens are not in fact intergalatic
Ted Bundys, Charlie Mansons, Jeffrey Dahmers, etc.?  That the aliens you deem
'good' are only consummate con artists, as adept at manipulating victims as
Bundy or Manson was?

You don't.  You only have their supposed WORD for what they supposedly ARE.


June

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Re: [CTRL] the problem with aliens

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Andrew Hennessey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 If we had choices as a global population - say we could choose inner earth,
 deep bases, moon, mars, europa, local or distant dimensions, beings of pure
 energy etc etc variously allied interstellar civilisations - if we had
 choices, then lets choose beings who have been called the BIG ANGELS, or,
 me, I would settle for the species of aliens known in third world countries
 as the LITTLE ANGELS - known for their curative and healing powers ie. [the
 GREYS sp]

 The X-files Xplanations are racist propaganda - smoke and mirrors and ink,
 for the masses of the globe have frightened the Octopus before its time.

Are you saying that the supposed aliens behind the supposed abductions are
friendly and beneficial towards homo sapiens?

If so, you and they have a very strange conception of 'beneficial'.

And perhaps you can explain to us dumb homo sapiens just why 'aliens', no
matter where they originate from, are so interested in us, and why people
like you seem to think we have to give up our autonomy to these aliens in
the name of 'saving ourselves'?


June

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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 You don't speak for all the Celts. You are still trying to figure out if
 there are even aliens, yet you are inplying you are above average
 intelliegence. On the other hand Andrew and I have both had extensive
 personal dealings with Ets and written books on this. We are termed 'Celt'.
 In my case I have had personal daily communications with local ETs
 (Venusians etc) for years but stopped in 1984.

Just about the time the Russian released their pictures of Venus, taken by
their space probes, showing that it would be impossible for higher life forms
to exist there?

What PROOF do you have that you weren't hallucinating?  What PROOF do you
have that you weren't being manipulated by some earthly power who implanted
you with false memories?  What PROOF do you have that if these communications
DID occur with non-homo sapiens, that these 'aliens' weren't LYING to you?

You don't.  You just have a belief system, as dogmatic as any conventional
religion.

And as a 'true believer', you can't be objective.


June

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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] INS Investigating Beating of Elian Camera Crew

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Joe McQuaid" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 one thing about this post seems very suspicious. since when do the networks
 let anyone --- such as the Miami gang, as you call the Gonzalez family and
 the Cuban Exiles/Families supporting them --- decide how they will cover a
 story and who they will use to cover it?

Happens all the time.  If it's a choice between not having ANYONE inside to
tape what happens, or having someone that the family and lawyers have approved
of, the media will jump at the chance to get someone in.  It's called 'pool
coverage', one crew does the taping and provides the tape to the media pool.


 also, why did NBC issue a letter protesting the treatment of their camera man?

They only issued the letter after he changed his story.  His original version of
events, given live on TV, never mentioned any of the things he now claims happened.
I saw this guy both times he was put live on MSNBC just after the raid, and he
gave the same story both times -- a story that never had the INS beating him or his
soundman up, never mentioned waking up outside, just saying that the front door
flying open had knocked him out, so that he couldn't comment on what happened inside
the house from the time the INS entered until he supposedly regained conscousness
shortly after the INS.  A very convenient time frame to be unconscious.


June

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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence/Covert Mimic

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   It clearly doesn't matter what I come up with or what anyone else comes up
 with.  Period.  You're intractable, which is fine.

Actually, it is you and Andrew who are intractable.  Most of the rest of us
are prepared to accept your 'true belief' if you would only provide some
FACTS.  All you've come up with is your own subjective interpretation to
events which may or may not have happened to you.

You are asking us to accept all of this on nothing but blind faith.  This is
the wrong list for that.  If you expected to find mindless adherents here,
you were very mistaken.  This is a list where RESEARCH is part of the title...


June

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Re: [CTRL] Come on Folks - let us please be somehat resembling . . .

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Kris Millegan" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 So Edward, please do not use strong profanities in Headlines.
 Tis not needed or wanted. Please do not attack people. Yes, Jean can get
 testy about her issues but that does still not give license to offend and
 attack.

"Jean"?  Who's she?

She must be the 'testy' one Kris is talking about, because I've rarely felt
'testy' about anything I've posted here...

Adamant in what I believe, yes.  'Testy', no


June  ;-)

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Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'Simultaneous' means that they all saw it at the same time, during the
same event.  Tell us more about this ONE event where 'thousands' at that one
time saw the same thing...

 There are many, many such events.

I'm looking to have just ONE such event named, where 'thousands' of people saw
something at the same time.  The closest I can come up with are the Mexican and
Phoenix sightings a few years ago, but in reality only a few hundred at most
actually saw anything AT THE SAME TIME as others reported seeing something.

There's a big difference in saying 'thousands in the Phoenix area saw strange
lights on the night of...', and when investigating, find that maybe a few
dozen saw something around 8pm, maybe a few hundred sighted something around
10pm, and perhaps a few hundred more saw something in the wee hours of the
morning...perhaps in total a thousand or more people saw something strange
that night, but never 'simultaneously'...

It could be said that 'thousands' witnessed the 'Westchester Wing' which was
seen in my area back in the early to mid 1980s...but in fact, at most it could
only be a thousand or so IN TOTAL...and never at the same time...



 They do not, however, prove an ET origin
 for what these people saw. There are a number of equally plausible
 alternative explanations.

Or equally implausible.  All we know is that relatively reliable people report
seeing -- and in some cases, experiencing -- strange things.  But we have no
way of knowing the true nature of these events, and one should take what the
supposed instigators of such events (e.g., 'aliens') claim to be 'the truth'
with a grain of salt.


June

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Re: [CTRL] UFO should not necessarily imply ET ?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "DIG alfred webre" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 June, please read the evidence summarized in May 27, 2000 article:
 http://www.alienzoo.com/news/u/25280005.cfm

 The hard evidence in these French reports now is formally stated to most
 strongly support an extraterrestrial hypothesis.  ETs are here and have been
 proven so, despite the best efforts of the USA military.

The link you point to is on a site devoted to a belief in an ET-basis for the
UFO phenomenon...hardly a subjective site.

Secondly, the article in question is one written by a Leslie Kean of The
Commercial Appeal of Memphis, Tennessee.  As such, it is only this reporter's
INTERPRETATION of the French report.  It is not the report itself.

Unless Leslie Kean is an expert French linguist, then he or she would have had
to rely on someone else's interpretation...which can lead to errors.

The quote we are given has these officials supposedly stating:   '"numerous
manifestations observed by reliable witnesses could be the work of craft of
extraterrestrial origin" and that, in fact, the best explanation is "the
extraterrestrial hypothesis." Although not categorically proven, "strong
presumptions exist in its favor and if it is correct, it is loaded with
significant consequences." '

"Could be the work of...", is hardly a statement of uncategorical belief.  Even
"...and that, in fact, the best expalantion..." does not mean that it is the ONLY
explanation.  "Although not categorically proven, 'strong presumptions exist'..."
again is hardly a statement of uncategorical belief.

Quite frankly, I see little difference between this article, and what one can
find any week in The Star, The Weekly World News, The Globe, or any other
supermarket tabloid.  The reporter never mentions his or her source for this,
and since I doubt the reporter is fluent in French, the reporter would need to
have someone else's translation of this report.  We aren't shown that Reporter
Kean even tried to do the modicum of work a reporter worth the name should have
done.  Did Kean try to reach any of these French officials for a direct quote?
Or did Reporter Kean unthinkingly accept something off of the wire service, a
report that could be a deliberate planting of disinformation?

We don't know, because Reporter Kean obviously did nothing more that put his or
her name on a 'canned' report off of a wire service, else there would be a mention
of Kean's actually conversing with anyone who is quoted in the article.

Sorry, this is NOT 'evidence'.  It is a report CLAIMING that there is evidence,
but it presents none.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Posting limits and comments thereon

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Tenorlove" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I see and concede your point, Nessie, but this has been going on for
 days now, and it's one of those problems which has a simple solution:
 the DELETE key.

The delete key is NOT the solution if there is a 100-post per day list
limit, and one person gets to send 20 percent or more of the daily posts.
It's not fair to the rest of us if that person's excessive posts end up
shutting down the list for the rest of us.


June

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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] UFO should not necessarily imply ET ?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Andrew Hennessey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Um... I think some of them are flown by extra-dimensional or
  extra-terrestrial life, yes.  There is evidence for it.
 
 What 'evidence'?

 The best evidence I have ever seen for the existence of non-human life
 is the agenda of denial currently being deployed on this list.
 people should be taking notes -

No denial going on here.  Just a request for the 'evidence' that is
claimed to exist, and which I notice YOU fail to provide, resorting instead
to personal attack.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes, from what I remember in "Above Top Secret", they just repeat these 19th
century stories, they do not 'document' them by doing research and gain any
corraborating evidence.

   As I recall, it named the papers, dates and authors as well as the
 accounts.  If witness accounts are not meaningful to you, so be it.  Good has
 the newspaper accounts.  I'm not quite sure how he would corroborate the
 stories with DEAD PEOPLE.

By research.  All the book does is recount old news articles, most of which it
got from other UFO books, and does not list direct reference.  IOW, it does
NOT give the page numbers the articles are found on, because the writer never
read the article directly in the paper, but depends on what other publications
have said about the articles.

And even then, all you have is an old newspaper article about what certain
people CLAIM to have seen.  This is no 'proof' of anything, except that some
people claim to have seen something strange.  We have no way of 'proving'
whether the article is a hoax of the newspaper (not unknown back in those days),
a hoax of the supposed witnesses, and if the witnesses ARE reliable, we have no
way of knowing whether someone was playing a hoax on them...

I can show you a newspaper article from a reliable newspaper back in 1892, that
names witnesses and gives their addresses, who all claimed to have witnessed
Lizzie Borden arguing with her father shortly before the infamous ax murders;
some witnesses even claimed to have seen one of the murders committed in an
upstairs room while the witness was on the street below.

As it turned out, not only would it have been impossible to have seen anything
from that angle (perhaps the ceiling), within a few days it was found that the
reporter had made up all the names and addresses, that none of the supposed
witnesses even existed.

So just because we today can lay our hands on a Victorian-era newspaper article,
there is not one reason why what is stated in the article should be taken at
face value without other corraborating evidence.


 It is, perhaps, 'documentation' of what a number of eye-witnesses claim to
 have seen.  It tells us nothing regarding the real nature of what was seen.
 Eye-witness testimony is highly subjective, colored by the intellect and
 emotions of the observer.

   Standard assertion.

Standard TRUTH.  Ask any policeman who has to deal with eyewitness testimony
to a crime.  It's actually pretty unreliable, and gets more unreliable the
more emotional the event.


 Thousands of people have been simulatenous witnesses
 to unidentified flying objects.

'Simultaneous' means that they all saw it at the same time, during the same
event.  Tell us more about this ONE event where 'thousands' at that one time
saw the same thing...


   I hope you don't believe anything you've ever read about history, since it
 all comes ultimately from witness accounts which are apparently "highly
 subjective, colored by the intellect and emotions of the observer."

But also subject to research, comparing multiple accounts of the same events.

Actually I DON'T believe everything I read regarding history.  History is
written by the victors, and so, yes, tends to be highly subjective, colored
by not only the intellect and emotions of the writer, but his prejudices, too...


June

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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Belgian Air Force doesn't think they could be man-made.

 The Belgian Air Force SAYS it doesn't THINK they could be man-made.

To be even more precise, a television program supposedly alleged that the
Belgian air force supposedly thinks that what was seen could not have been
formed by earthly technology.

No names of anyone in the Belgian air force are being put forth as a source
for this supposed allegation.


News reports in the 19th century, documented in "Above Top Secret?"

 News reports in the 19th century, are REPEATED in "Above Top Secret"

 By definition, this is hearsay. It's pretty interesting hearsay and worth
 considering. But it's NOT evidence.

Yes, from what I remember in "Above Top Secret", they just repeat these 19th
century stories, they do not 'document' them by doing research and gain any
corraborating evidence.


Do multiple sightings documented in newspapers before the invention of
 airplanes mean nothing to you?

 When something is reported in the newspaper it is REPORTED in the
 newspaper. A REPORT is not documentation.

It is, perhaps, 'documentation' of what a number of eye-witnesses claim to
have seen.  It tells us nothing regarding the real nature of what was seen.
Eye-witness testimony is highly subjective, colored by the intellect and
emotions of the observer.


June

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Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   I'd never dream that my ideas are above criticism, and never once implied
 otherwise.  I think the screech level that arises on this list when anyone
 brings up the subject of UFOs is quite telling.  There's plenty of evidence,
 anecdotal and otherwise, that unidentified objects have been flying in our
 skies for a century or more.  There's evidence, not proof.  But what do any
 of us have that is proof of anything?  Have you ever met Clinton?  Are you
 sure he exists?  Could he be a digital image?  If you met him, can you prove
 he wasn't a cyborg?  I mean, get real.

I think the 'screech level' as you deem it is due to the fact that when it
comes to UFOs, there are way too many 'true believers' of whatever 'truth' the
believers choose regarding the nature and origin of UFOs.  Too many of these
'true believers' treat it as if it were a religion, with a set of rules and
dogmas...

Yes, 'something' is going on in regards to what is popularly known as
Unidentified Flying Objects.  I am prepared to believe that the majority of
people who have claimed to witness, and perhaps even had direct contact with,
these objects and perhaps occupants within the objects, are telling the truth
AS THEY PERCEIVE IT.  Which perhaps is not the same as objective reality.

I am not prepared to believe that these objects are extraterrestial; on the
other hand, I don't necessarily DIS-believe it, either.  I try to keep an open
mind.

June

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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] UFO should not necessarily imply ET ?

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Um... I think some of them are flown by extra-dimensional or
 extra-terrestrial life, yes.  There is evidence for it.

What 'evidence'?


June

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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
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effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] [RMNEWS] WAS ELIAN'S FREEDOM FLIGHT STAGED? PART 2

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

 On January 7th, 2000, a Rumor Mill News Source stated "that a joint operation
 between Cuba and the United States arranged for the small group of Cuban
 refugees to make an attempt to reach the United States in a small boat.

For what purpose?


 "Once the boat was near shipping and fishing areas, it was sabotaged. Elian
 was the only survivor.

 "The anonymous source stated that Elian had NOT been in the water for two
 days. "

I always found the claim that he was floating around for two days suspicious.
He wasn't even tanned, let alone sunburned, which would have been expected
after being exposed not only to the direct rays of the sun, but its reflected
rays off of the water.

He wasn't dehydrated, either...an almost impossible condition for a small child
deprived of food and water for 2 days...

And he was dressed very strangely, in dayglo orange shirt and pants, as if
someone specifically chose the color that would be most visible from a distance
at sea...assuring that he would be easily found in a timely manner...

But we are told that Elian SAYS he was floating out there for 2 days...this
leaves us with a quandry.  Either he really was out there for 2 days, and his
not being sunburned or dehydrated IS a sign of some divine intervention.  Or
he never really said he was out there for 2 days, and that story was fed to
the media for some hidden reason.  Or the child sincerely BELIEVES he was out
there that long, perhaps due to some sort of mind control or use of drugs, or
a combination of both.


 +  Where is Elian's mother and her boyfriend?

 +  Are they dead -- i.e. were they murdered to create "The Elian Crisis"?

 +  Are they in prison in Cuba? Was Elian's father right when he told Elian
 that his mother was alive and back in Cuba?

Or, as Elian believes, wandering around Miami somewhere?


 A man listed in the documents as a witness told The Herald on Tuesday
 that he found Arianne Horta and Nivaldo Fernandez several miles out to
 sea and brought them to Crandon Park Marina so they would not be
 returned to Cuba.

 The two survivors have insisted that they swam to shore by themselves, a
 story Horta repeated again this week.

The discrepancy can perhaps be explained by the fact that according to law,
if refugess managed to make it to shore and stand upon U.S. soil under their
own volition, that they have the right to claim sanctuary.  But if someone
finds them out at sea and brings them to these shores, they are subject to
immediate deportation.

It is therefore no wonder Horta and Fernandez would claim to have swum to
shore themselves, rather than admit to having been rescued while still out
at sea.


 There is little doubt that the boat left Cuba Nov. 22. Cuban authorities
 telexed the U.S. Coast Guard that day reporting that a badly overloaded
 boat had left for the United States. And a phone bill shows that Elian's
 grandfather, Juan Gonzalez Hernandez, placed a collect call to his
 sister in Miami, Georgina Cid, at 9:01 p.m. that day to report that
 Elian and his mother were on their way to Miami.

This is very different than the claim the supporters of the Miami gang
make that Elian's FATHER called the Lazaro Gonzalez family regarding his
ex-wife bringing Elian to the U.S., a claim the Miami-gang is using to
claim that Elian's father wanted them to have Elian.


 The coordinator obtained the information from a U.S. Border Patrol
 officer who -- in turn -- was relaying the gist of a conversation with
 one of the doctors who treated Elian at Joe DiMaggio Children's Hospital
 in Hollywood.

 The Coast Guard said this week that it did not have the name of the
 doctor. A spokeswoman for the hospital, Lauri Brunelli, declined to
 comment, citing patient confidentiality.

One really doesn't need the doctor's name...basic knowledge of pediatrics
would tell anyone that a small child floating on a raft or inner tube for
2 or more days out at sea would be in much worse shape than Elian was in
when he was found.

A child's small body mass dehydrates sooner than an adult's under the
same condition.  Even if Elian was kept in a cool, dark room for 2 days,
he would have been severely dehydrated after 2 days if he was given
nothing to eat or drink.

The dehydration is intensified when such a small body mass in placed in
salt water under the direct rays of the sun.

And has been mentioned, he should have been sunburned after just a few
hours out in the sun under those conditions...he wasn't even tanned.


 Horta, in a story The Herald published Nov. 28, was quoted as saying she
 and Fernandez were rescued by a passing boat. But in a later story
 published Dec. 13, Horta left the impression she and Fernandez swam to
 shore -- a version Horta repeated Tuesday, saying that she and Fernandez
 made the swim after seeing the lights of Key Biscayne.

Yes, after they'd been here awhile and had been made aware of what the law
was, they would have every reason to modify their version from being rescued
by a passing 

Re: [CTRL] INS Investigating Beating of Elian Camera Crew

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

 The Immigration and Naturalization Service is actively
 investigating allegations that a federal SWAT team beat up an NBC
 camera crew as it was preparing to film last month's raid on the
 home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, NewsMax.com has
 learned.

 "That issue is now being taken up by our Internal Audit Office,"
 INS spokeswoman Maria Cardona told NewsMax.com in an exclusive
 interview Tuesday. "They're looking into it more closely."

  Last month, Cardona told Accuracy In Media's Reed Irvine that
 the machine-gun-toting agents denied having "any physical
 contact" with freelance NBC camerman Tony Zumbado and his
 soundman Gustavo Moeller. The two had been designated as the sole
 source to provide network "pool" video coverage from inside the
 house.

I've posted about this subject here before, but it bears repeating...

What isn't mentioned above is that the designation of 'sole source
to provide network 'pool' video coverage' came from the Miami gang,
not from any 'network pool', because Zumbado, a Cuban-American
himself, was openly supportive of the Miami gang...

And Zumbado was interviewed live on MSNBC shortly after 7am the day
of the raid...barely two hours after the event.

He not only showed no signs of being 'roughed up', he told a very
different story than the one he seems to be saying now.  He repeated
this early version of events later that same day, in yet another
live MSNBC interview, done about midday...

In his early version he claimed that he was immediately knocked
unconscious by the front door, because that was where he was sleeping.
No mention of being 'roughed up'.  No mention of waking up outside.
No mention of his soundman buddy. No claim of equipment or tape being
destroyed.  Zumbado had to keep reiterating to the anchor interviewing
him that the reason he didn't get any tape footage was due to being
knocked unconscious when the INS first entered, he made it a point to
claim of being taken so much by surprise before losing consciousness
that he never had time to even lift his camera, let alone get it ready...


 Cardona's denial came after Zumbado told MSNBC, "We got maced.
 ... We were told to lay on the floor. ... I was kicked in the
 stomach and pushed down and they kind of like put their foot on
 my back and told me not to move or else they were going to
 shoot."

Again, as I mentioned above, this is at odds with Zumbado's original
description of events made just a few hours afterwards...in his first
interviews, he never mentions mace (indeed, we now know that mace wasn't
used, but pepper spray...perhaps a minor point, but it shows that
whomever is writing this article isn't doing research).

Zumbado's original interviews had him claiming of being immediately
knocked out, and knowing nothing of what happened afterwards until he
conveniently regained consciousness just moments after the INS left.  No
kicking in the stomach, no pushing him down (because he was already on
the floor, supposedly sleeping, when the INS came in).  No jackboots on
his back.  No agents telling him not to move or else they'd shoot.  No,
in his original description he repeatedly stated he was knocked out cold
by the door when the INS first entered, and that he had no knowledge of
what happened thereafter, until he came to just after the INS left.


  While the NBC cameraman was being attacked inside the house, his
 soundman, who was still outside, was hit on the head with the
 butt of a shotgun, then held at gunpoint for the duration of the
 raid.

This perhaps is true.  But it would have to be the soundman who would
have to verify what in fact happened to himself.  What we have here is
hearsay, inadmissable in a court of law.  Anything that Zumbado claims
happened to the soundman is NOT due to his direct observation, but what
he would have been told by the soundman and others afterwards...


  NBC reporter Kerry Sanders, who was also assigned by the network
 to cover the raid, told NewsMax.com that Zumbado and Moeller gave
 him identical versions of the assault minutes after INS agents
 sped away with Elian.

Perhaps.  But all this statement tells us is that a colleague of theirs
claims they described the same thing...not WHAT they described.

Sanders should be aware of Zumbado's original interviews, which describe
a totally different event than what is now being described...


Zumbado was later hospitalized for back trouble, Sanders said.

Again, Zumbado was interviewed within two hours of the raid, and a
second time about 5 to 6 hours later.  Not only did he not look 'roughed
up' (neat clothes, no bruises or abrasions), he looked very hail and
hearty, and indeed stressed to the anchors interviewing him, when they
asked if he was okay, that he indeed was fine and felt fine and wasn't hurt.


  When Irvine asked Cardona why the NBC crew would simply make up
 such a story, the INS spokeswoman told him, "It could be because
 they needed an excuse for not doing their jobs."

Based solely on 

[CTRL] I TOO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW...

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

...why Michael Spitzer gets to send 20+ posts in one day to this
list, while I and the rest of the list are restricted to only 7
per day...


June

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] I TOO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW...

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "William Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  So yes, Michael can posts more. If he oversteps his "power", this is an
  electronic jungle and the "club: will come out 'da sky. 

 I'd suggest that this power is being abused then...granted his posts are
 informative but c'mon!!!

I second Bill's opinion.  I feel Michael's been abusing the privilege.  There
are others on this list, myself included, who would like to send more than 7
'informative' posts a day, but are not allowed to do so.  If Michael was only
sending 8 to 12 posts, it wouldn't be so bad, but this 20+ a day has got to
stop, or else grant the same privilege to all of us.


June

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==
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] ANOTHER REASON MICHAEL SPITZER'S POSTS SHOULD BE LIMITED

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

This is the 2nd time in as many days that I've gotten the following message
back when trying to post to CTRL

Maybe if Michael didn't overwhelm the list with 20+ posts a day, some of the
rest of us could have a chance to get our rationed 7-a-day in..

Either restrict him to 7 posts a day like the rest of us, or increase the
daily post total from 100 to at least 150 or 200...or don't even have a
daily list total at all.  Why is this in place, when the rest of us are
limited to only 7 posts?


June

- Original Message -
From: "L-Soft list server at America Online (1.8d)" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:50 PM
Subject: Message ("The distribution of your message dated Wed, 24...")


 The distribution of your message dated Wed, 24 May 2000 20:44:10 -0400 with
 subject "Re:  I TOO WOULD LIKE  TO KNOW..." has been  postponed because the
 daily message limit for the CTRL list (100) has been exceeded. No action is
 required from you; your message  will be reprocessed automatically once the
 list owner releases the list.


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Re: [CTRL] [MC] FW: Third Secret-Message of Fatima Press Release

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On that final day of October 13th, all 70,000 winesses watched in shocked
amazement a spectacle in the sky: rainbow spirals sweeping the clouds, large
images of historical religious figures, and what seemed to them to be the
Sun falling towards them, only to suddenly retreat back up to the sky.
This in 1908 or so.

 When was the movie projector invented?

 1890's.

 But it doesn't sound like a MOVIE projector would have necessarily been used...
we aren't told that these images MOVED, only that the crowd saw a panorama of
them

This was a common con of Spiritualists, going well back into the mid-19th
century...project images into a smoke- or fog-filled room via a 'magic lantern',
which was an early slide device which first utilized kerosene, and later
electricity, as a light source to project images onto a screen.  Magic Lantern
shows were a very popular form of entertainment throughout the latter-half of
the nineteenth century, and unscrupulous mediums used these to project images of
religious figures and the recently deceased onto smoke or fog in lieu of a
screen, as 'proof' of the presence of the spirits of great guides and dearly
departed loved ones...

 Remember, by all accounts it had been raining that morning at Fatima, just
stopping shortly before the supposedly miraculous images were seen...so it is
NOT beyond the realm of possibility that there were sufficient low-lying
clouds and perhaps even fog, onto which to project the images...if indeed that
is what it was.  I remain open-minded on the subject.


 June

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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
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effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: [The Grip] Fwd: Homosexuals commit 55% of child molestations.]

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 First off, I am not gay,

It's a shame you feel you have to preface your comments with that
revelation...


and I don't particularly like the lifestyle that some in the gay community live,

Neither do I.  I also don't particularly like the the lifestyle that some in the
straight community live.

The key word in both phrases is SOME.  One cannot make blanket comments about
a "gay community" anymore than one can make blanket comments about a "straight
community"...


or the radical message that some gay people have, ie; "You MUST accept us, and
we will get in your face until you do".

Well, one can reasonably argue that no social change would have occured without
radicals getting in one's face.  Women would have never gotten the right to vote,
blacks wouldn't have gained civil rights, without 'in-your-face' tactics...

The only reason SOME gays utilize 'in-your-face' tactics is solely due to the
fact that 'asking nicely' for their civil rights hasn't worked up till now...


June

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: [The Grip] Fwd: Homosexuals commit 55% of child molestations.

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 How other people choose to live their lives is nobody's business but their
 own.

Yes, whatever consenting adults choose to do in or with their lives is no
one's business...definitely not the government's...

After all, there is nothing that consenting adult homosexuals do that
consenting adult heterosexuals don't also indulge in...


 or the radical message that some gay people have, ie; "You MUST accept
 us, and we will get in your face until you do".

 If you were gay, what strategy would you pursue to gain acceptance?

This "well, I'd support their cause if they weren't so rude" argument has
been used against every group over the decades that has sought to gain their
civil rights.  Unfortunately, polite requests always results in maintainance
of the status quo...

And that goes back to the days of the American Revolution...the American
Colonists time and again politely petitioned the Crown to address and redress
their grievances...but it wasn't until certain colonists utilized "in your
face" tactics that the Crown took notice...   ;-)


June

A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: [The Grip] Fwd: Homosexuals commit 55% of child molestations.

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How about keeping one's mouth shut and acting like everyone else

 If everyone kept their mouth shut and everyone acted alike, what kind of a
 world would we have?

Yes, it's interesting that the same people who complain about "the sheeple"
then turn around and argue for certain groups remaining silent and not
rocking the boat...


June

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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
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and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: [The Grip] Fwd: Homosexuals commit 55% of child molestations.

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
but it wasn't until certain colonists utilized "in your face" tactics
 that the Crown took notice...

 They physically assaulted the king's tax collectors, tarring and
 feathering some, whipping some, pouring hot tea down the throats of
 others. They wantonly destroyed private property, most notably (but not
 only) the tea in Boston Harbor.

Not to mention sacking, looting, and burning down the mansion of the king's
appointed governor of the Massachusetts colony, who narrowly escaped with
his life...


 There is an active war going on against homosexuals in this country.

Yes, and who is orchestrating this war behind the scenes?

Cui bono?

Who has the most to benefit by stirring up the masses to bicker about
petty differences?

Divide and conquer...

Get a certain segment of society worked up into a lather over 'the
queer problem', and in turn get a certain segment of the gay community
worked up to counter in kind...

While we're fighting amongst ourselves, we can't become an effect force
to fight the REAL problem people...


 Yet homophobes complain because they have to look at rainbow flags and
 purple triangles!?!

No homophobe here...but I was sort of surprised to see the 'rainbow trout'
windsock I've had for years recently on sale at Ebay, described as a
'symbol of gay pride'...

Not that it will stop me from using it as line candy on my kites, but now
I'll know I'm flying a gay fish...   ;-)


 But there they were, doing it. Homosexuality is part of nature's way.

I feel that it's nature's way of controlling population growth...a certain
percentage of the population is attracted to the same sex as a way of
keeping procreation within certain limits.


June

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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths,
misdirections
and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and
minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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