Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:42:51 -0600, you wrote: I am sorry you feel I was being judgemental... she is talking about a path that is not very far as being the only difficult part for her horse... I don't understand putting shoes on for that amount of riding... I was trying to be encouraging, not judgemental... I was trying to be helpful... I was not saying that particular bit is the only difficult bit - just that that is the bit where there is no way any sort of boots will stay on. And it's all very well to say oh well just get off and replace the boots after, but if you're a disabled rider like me, who mostly rides alone, then that's easier said than done. Plus - 75% of our rides are on tarmac roads, many of them with big hills. We live in an area which is a glacial morraine - ie lots of boulders and rocks everywhere including in the fields. We get an awful lot of rain each year. Our horses live out in large pastures 24/7. I recognise the anatomy of the foot, can trim well, but do not as I am not physically capable of it. My farrier advises me to shoe my riding horses (and he's done courses with Gene Ovnick and Pete Ramey). I have thoroughly researched barefoot trimming and keeping horses barefoot for riding. I've tried a lot of different boots. I have spent an awful lot of time and money trying to keep my ridden horses barefoot over a period of FIVE years. Then I gave up. I have owned, ridden, and bred horses for over 30 years. You do not know me, my horses, or the environment we live in, so please don't preach at me. Yep, the valium has definitely worn off. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:58:12 -0500, you wrote: I know plenty of people whose horses mostly go barefoot, but who put shoes on them for trail riding/show season Doesn't everybody do that? Even here, it's very, very unusual for any horse of any breed to need shoes when it's not being ridden, unless it has a specific medical problem. The other thing that bugs me - the idea that a barefoot trim and a pasture trim are two different things. A good, balanced trim is a good, balanced trim. Period. Barefoot Nazis. I like that - very apt. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Oh sheesh! Hope none of those people ever hear about Hunter, the Tennessee Trotting Horse, who does a mean stepping pace and has RW'd about twice in two years. Gotta love him, though, he'll go anywhere! Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
There are very few things about any aspect of horse-ownership that don't have pro's and con's associated. It's the day-to-day struggle we face as horse-owners - always having to pick the lesser of the evils. Never truer words were spoken -- Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 11/28/07, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, the valium has definitely worn off. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Mic i dont even know why you are even explaining yourself, you shouldnt have to. If you think your horses need shoes they must need shoes. Shrug. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? / Tradeoffs
at the barn we were at for years, i swear there was more lameness from pulling shoes from AQHA western pleasure show horses than any walking horse barn! I would say it was 100% of the time! some NEVER got over it and had to be re-shod. Its almost like those ancient chinese women whose feet are bound. They would have these little teeny tiny feet held in for years by shoes and then when the shoes were pulled they would go lame. I of course dont know why or the bio physical mechanics of it... i just saw the results over and over. and some horses you wouldnt have a CLUE what they were on, but when they would go to the new owner and the shoes pulled, put on normal feed and hay and no supplements they would go into a physiological crash that was at times spectacular. I remember one that was a huge bulked up halter horse, glossy, just gorgeous, had no winter coat, sleek and shiney from being stalled under lights 24/7... his name was buddy. shoes were pulled and he went lame, couldnt even walk. Then, a mystery, ALL his hair fell out in handfuls. so there was some physical meltdown going on there. Then it turns out he was HYPP positive. Then he stopped eating and lost about 400 pounds and nearly died. The woman had paid 1800 for him at auction and thought she had such a bargain. I was absolutely horrified when the barn owner told her take him back to auction this friday nite and dump him on someone else and she did... she got three hundred bucks for him and gave no disclosure of any of his problems! Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
The other thing that bugs me - the idea that a barefoot trim and a pasture trim are two different things. A good, balanced trim is a good, balanced trim. Period. mic...i am not a trimmer nor do i trim my own ponies. but there is a difference between the two trims. in the past...my FARRIER would trim my ponies in the winter and take off a ton of sole/live tissue. and would not put a mustange roll on the hoof edges. my natural barefoot TRIMMER..does trim my ponies different. scott does not take any live sole off and he rolles the hoof edges, so that they do not chip. sorry i can't explain it better. raven
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
again, i think we are confusing barefoot with barefoot as in pasture barefoot to trimming for barefoot as in wild horse? to me there is a difference. In pasture barefoot to trimming for wild horse barefoot. like my farrier says, how you gonna trim a horse in florida like a horse should be trimmed in a place where they walk on rocks all day. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
for me, going barefoot is a personal choice... I think more horses can go barefoot then are at the moment. I think it is easier done then one thinks is is going to be, I totally agree...many of our horse we shoe, we feel could go barefoot...in our farrier business we have turned many many horse owners into having a barefoot horse. We only try it if the whole picture matches up, ie. horse, feet, owners, pasture, type of riding, health of the horse...and I am sure other factors as well (its late so I might be missing something) it is not really cheaper, Very true...for a lot of horse owners it is not really cheaper...we charge $40-$50 for a barefoot trim, and sometimes they might need to be done more regular depending on many factors. I think where people really need to start is when the foal is born... lots of exercise, lots of movement, start from the get go with foals, and yes better breeding and I think barefoot will be easier from the beginning... Totally agree. Thats why we have our babies in the most natural setting we can give them, 2000 acres of pasture with hills (4000 foot elevation up to 7000 foot elevation), with a lot of room, they must move to water, they run, play, have their own social network, have older mares to give them boundaries...they have GREAT FEET! They are full bodied, strong andf have a good sense of themselves. They get a visit each week, and love humans, but are very respectful, not pushy, curious and friendly, but yet independent... The stallion we imported has GREAT feet and bone... the barefoot trim is different then a typical pasture trim... and I am not sure if people are aware of all of this, we are discussing this very subject on the barefoothorsecare list, there are many who are much better at explaining things then I am on that list... so, I welcome any of you to join it True.pasture trims are just for that , the pasture...they take much less time than a proper balanced trim...of course this varies widely from farrier to farrier and barefoot trimmer to barefoot trimmer. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? /Shoes?
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/27/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please believe me when I say...I have met Barefooting Fanatics and Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. no way! people like that exist?? janice-- Yes. Because of that freaking barefoot trimmer oath making people who use shoes look like we are cruel to our beloved horses. Just go to a Pete Ramey or Jackson site and read the certified trimmers oath...its like a cult. I swear. It did not use to have that extremism...its like a brand or a marketing thing...they must set themselves apart from farrier schools This is one of the reasons we like Genes stuff so much. He is reasonable and does what is best for each individual horse...no oath involved. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
For the record, I am slightly handicapped and my legs are very spastic. I need a very smooth horse. The trot and most canters don't work for me. I wish they did. I know this...and I do sincerly apprecite it. But, I also think that you need to keep your horse's welfare in mind. I'm sorry, I know this will upset you and hurt your feelings. But I can not support that fact that you want to change your horse's way of going.with shoes, so that your ride will be smoother. There are many smooth horses out there; smooth slow QH's with awesome ride all -day -jogs, smooth fast gaited horses and horses who have awesome smooth dog/flat walks. In the long run...what you do to your horse's hooves will affect thier bodies. It''s just not fair to your horses to try to make them ...into something that they are not built to do. Conformation is the huge important part in gaiting! Gaits are in the horses conformation...not in the hooves or shoes. I know that you love your mares, but maybejust maybe you need to try to find a smoother...naturally gaited horse. (??) It's like me wanting to run cans and win the purse. No way could I do that with Huginn, he is to bulky, stocky and just can spin those cans that way money-making can horse must do. If I wanted to run cans to win I would need a small fast QH. Or me bringing home those senior Ice Ponies and wanting to do endurance on them. Yea...may work. But,,, most likely...NOT. Huginn's tolt is not set ...nor is it the best/smoothest. I would never consider shoeing/trimming him to get smoother gaits out of him. He is what he is. HIs body is not built for tolt and as a repsonsible horse owner I need to accept that. If not, than I would sell him and get a smoother horse. Again...please beleive me...my intention is not to hurt you or upset you Raven
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? /Shoes?
Yes. Because of that freaking barefoot trimmer oath making people who use shoes look like we are cruel to our beloved horses. Just go to a Pete Ramey or Jackson site and read the certified trimmers oath...its like a cult. I swear. gosh my farrier is so good, has always done such a good job with my horses. he is the best around and i live in fear something will happen to him. And he's a nobody! he got colon cancer one year and we had to get someone else and i went thru three farriers that seemed so horrible. One got out of his truck with a twitch in his hand and started walking to where I had my old steady deadbroke jaspar tied and waiting and i said whoah ho where you going with that?!? and he said oh i twitch them all, saves a lot of trouble that way. he argued and argued but finally did it without the twitch and with no incident btw, then a month later I heard he was doing a yearling QH at a big fancy breeding farm owned by rich people and got kicked in the face and had to have like 3 surgeries to repair his face. so i was thinking hmm, he kinda has a weird method of determining whether a horse needs twitching or not based on owner income?? I was perplexed by that. I would twitch in an emergency but my Jaspar is phobic of them and I would honestly rather have him sedated than twitched, he might throw himself over backwards. last time the vet gave him his strangles intranasal stuff he sat down like Francis the mule while three people wrestled him and one had a lip twitch on him. I told the vet next time I just want him sedated. my vet is just baffled by jaspar, he shakes his head and says he is such a mild mannered good ol horse but he DOES have that nose issue and I think its from being TWITCHED in the past~!! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:37:58 -0600, you wrote: my natural barefoot TRIMMER..does trim my ponies different. scott does not take any live sole off and he rolles the hoof edges, so that they do not chip. That's what my farrier does to anything he trims. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
it is not really cheaper Hum..let's see what my cost is. Here is my projected hoof costs for 2008, this is trimming every seven (7) weeks. With Scott my natural trimmer, I will have a total of eight (8) trims each for Huginn and Dixie. Each trim is $40.00. So 16 trims = $640.00. Now...if I were to return to shoeing Huginn my projected hoof costs for 2008: With farrier David, I would have three (3) trims for Huginn, eight (8) trims for Dixie and five (5) shoeing for Huginn. Trims are $27.00 and shoeing is $140.00. Plus a $15.00 barn call fee. My 2008 total = $1,117.00. More shoeing ...if I wear the shoes down to thin metal and I have been known to do this, so then it's shoeing every 4 -5 weeks. Now...is barefooting cheaper? Hum..maybe in the long run. But this was my first year and I had to buy so many Easy Boot setst that it was driving me CRAZY. I think I must have 4 compete sets; 00, 0 and 1's. And let me tell you those are NOT cheap. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Skye, thanks for quoting me and agreeing with everything I said...
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? / Tradeoffs
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: at the barn we were at for years, i swear there was more lameness from pulling shoes from AQHA western pleasure show horses than any walking horse barn! I would say it was 100% of the time! some NEVER got over it and had to be re-shod. Its almost like those ancient chinese women whose feet are bound. They would have these little teeny tiny feet held in for years by shoes and then when the shoes were pulled they would go lame. Those horses begin to get shod shortly after they turn 1 year oldwe have several we shoe, they keep getting bigger and their feet are small. We talked one of the barn into switching over to the poly steel ground controll shoes and were able to get the foot to go up 1 size in the 2 QH in less than a year, pretty remarkable...their feet were finally able to grow and move, and they did that and were still rideable and never took a lame step. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
in the past...my FARRIER would trim my ponies in the winter and take off a ton of sole/live tissue. and would not put a mustange roll on the hoof edges. Just to let some of you know that not all farriers cut into live solesome farriers do a balanced job looking at the horses needs and conformation of the foot and looking at the weather condition (wet/dry) and the type of work. Otherwise there would be a lot of really lame horse these past hundreds of years.. We talked to a farrier from back east one day...he happens to hate Gene O.. Anyway he was describing to Sally how he trimmed a horse before he put on the shoes. I cut into live sole until I can see and feel the pulse beating...thats how I know I cut deep enough. SCARY Skye Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
--- Debbie K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skye, thanks for quoting me and agreeing with everything I said... Hey nop problem... I think better breeding is important on many levels...but we really want the feet to be greatno foot no horse. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 26/11/2007, Pam Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't have the strength or the stomach for that anymore. MY GOD, I am putting a pair of shoes on my horses. Now it is manipulating the gait and it is gonna cause spavin. A pair of shoes. Unreal. I apologize Pam. Apparently we've deeply offended each other when it comes to shoeing for gait manipulation. Boots are an excellent option. Plus they can come off at the end of a ride. Regards Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
--- Debbie K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, if they need protection I put on boa's, very rarely does this happen.. Thats wonderful for you. However some people need the protection because of their home pastureyou can not wear boas 24-7. Skye, this is beginning to sound like an arguement... I have no intention of being part of an arguement with you.. Not trying to make one...just got went a little too quick on that email and came across a little short , sorry. I now believe that your comment is the Exception rather then the rule... and if I had that problem, I would be composting every pile of poop, every wasted morsal of food, every leaf, every blade of grass, every weed I found to give my horses a safe place to walk and stand... kind of the opposite of what I did with all my gravel... Its just that some owners do not have that as a choice in their life, or because their horse has flat soles or bad breeding where breeding for feet did not matter...I could keep going. And some people do not want to make the transition and see their horse hobbling around in pain...yes Dr. Strausser has made quite an impression in the barefoot world. I am glad, and happy that more people are coming around to barefoot, we promote it as Farriers actually. But not everyone can do it for many reasons. And it would be good for the barefoot movement if the promoters had a little more compassion and a little less judgment for those of us who do need to put shoes on for protection. I believe it was Karen who brought up that some breeds do better barefoot and other breeds do not...of course there are always exceptions to that. We find that Arabs and Icelandic are usually a good bet, better feet... We have yet to shoe a TB with Good feet...and we shoe quite a few of them here, and some with what a TB person would call Exceptional breeding (Daughters of Kentucky Derby winners, and retired past winners that are here in their retirement homes) None of them would be a candidate, their soles are flat, walls are thin and shelly, they chip, crack, split...but boy can they gallop! At a race track they might get shod 4-5 times per week...insane I know, but that is the industry, and the industry of breeding many horses that eventually become trail or dressage horses. We shoe QH with such small feet, and flat, I wonder what has happened to that breed where you have this enormous horse on tiny little feet. Since its our business and we would rather see a barefoot horse..we really try, and we have learned that not every horse in every situation can do it..the horses that people keep are not wild and are not living in a wild situation and a lot of the ones we see probably could not make it with the feet that they have been breed with. Another human error. Lets hope Icelandics do not come to the same place Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 06:43:41AM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: I apologize Pam. Apparently we've deeply offended each other when it comes to shoeing for gait manipulation. it occurs to me (as i put on my own shoes for the day -- reebok hi-tops) that there are no shoes, and no barefoot trims (including those provided by nature) that do not affect gait one way or another. i think the word manipulation (which means something like, done with the hands) is properly reserved for those which are done on purpose by people to horses. in which case certainly what i have my barefoot farrier do is certainly manipulative, since it is quite unlike what happens to stjarni if his feet are just left alone (which i regard as not dissimilar to just leaving a horse alone in terms of feed, and i do not discount that # of wild horses who starve to death). and of course it affects his gait; he is five-gaited again (that is, he can comfortably trot). i think that scorn and derision should be reserved for hoof manipulation (whether barefoot or with shoes) that results in pain or long-term unsoundness for the horse. and i would call that something like bad farriery or bad trimming rather than manipulation for gait. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:37:27 -0800 (PST), you wrote: And it would be good for the barefoot movement if the promoters had a little more compassion and a little less judgment for those of us who do need to put shoes on for protection. YES! I think people also forget that the climate the horse lives in also makes a big difference. For instance in the UK where it's often wet, followed by very dry, all year round, so the feet dry out then get soaked every five minutes, combined with mud/hard ground etc etc, many horses just cannot cope with barefoot, no matter how willing the owner. And that's the view of the Farrier's Registration Council and people like laminitis expert vet Robert Eustace, not just my personal view. I get SOO fed up with barefoot evangelists in other countries telling me that all my riding horses would be fine without shoes if only I would persevere with them and so on, when I have spent literally years attempting to convert several different horses, and had no luck whatsoever, at least with front feet. I think the valium's worn off, BTW. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
While I was out shopping for Icelandics, I rode a horse at a large farm (lots of imports). In order to get him to tolt, I was told to pull back and up on the reins - hard. After some time doing that I told the owner that if it took that much effort to get a horse to tolt, then I wasn't ever going to ask it to tolt. She got very, very angry and said that if I wan't going to tolt, then I should not be allowed to buy an Icelandic. I also watched the horses tolting on their own in the field and thought that if they can do it without their heads cranked up out there, then they probably didn't need to have their heads cranked up under saddle, either. you seem to me a great gaited horse owner :) Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
i think that scorn and derision should be reserved for hoof manipulation (whether barefoot or with shoes) that results in pain or long-term unsoundness for the horse. and i would call that something like bad farriery or bad trimming rather than manipulation for gait. --vicka i agree with that, but also believe that you can't take the gait out of a sound naturally gaited horse even if you try, it will always return. I have said it many times before, but my Fox is so naturally gaited that when he had thrush and his feet were cut down to almost nubs he gaited smooth, has gaited smooth no matter what length his feet, shod or not shod, no matter the bit, the saddle, none of it. I believe he would gait if he was walking on his coffin bones... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Skye and Sally ~Fire Island [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We shoe QH with such small feet, and flat, I wonder what has happened to that breed where you have this enormous horse on tiny little feet. i know exactly what happened--- western pleasure showing. and when you pull the shoes they are lame as ducks. often irrecoverably so. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I get SOO fed up with barefoot evangelists in other countries telling me that all my riding horses would be fine without shoes if only I would persevere with them and so on, when I have spent literally years attempting to convert several different horses, and had no luck whatsoever, at least with front feet. I think the valium's worn off, BTW. Mic i agree! same here the opposite way! I get sick of hearing my horses should have special trims, shoes to gait, boots etc. My horses are trimmed to natural angles and barefooted and walk in sand 24/7. they dont need no shoes! it gets ridiculous when people in other areas try to tell people things sometimes. I have had people tell me our coastal bermuda hay is inferior.?? maybe it is where they are. But here its the best there is! I could feed alfalfa but it cost four times as much and i would have to ship it in from far away. And feed, oh lord dont go there. My horses do so well on purina strategy, and people say oh thats terrible, you should use blah blah, and I am thinking hmm, and pay shipping for fifty pound sacks of feed to be air mailed to me from hundreds of miles away?? people are nutty sometimes. I have had people tell me i shouldnt feed my horses at all. ?? every week this summer people with nicer pastures than mine were arrested for starving their horses, mine stand ankle deep in sand all day, umn, what are they supposed to live on?? air?? i think i need a valium too. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Shoeing to 'balance' a gait is another thing entirely. If you're shoeing for gait, it's probably better described as shoeing to *unbalance*, because you would be unbalancing the horse's natural way of going. More *negative* shoeing, than positive shoeing. Judy
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:35:56 -0600, you wrote: i think i need a valium too. I'll send you one if you like, I have some left (can't say they really made any difference whatsoever at the dentist, I was still shaking like a bloody leaf ; ( ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 27/11/2007, Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i agree with that, but also believe that you can't take the gait out of a sound naturally gaited horse even if you try, it will always return. True. I feel there is a difference between shoeing for gait enhancement and shoeing for protection. Two completely different things in my view. I have absolutely no problem when an owner shoes for protection because circumstances warrant it. Shoeing to 'balance' a gait is another thing entirely. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 12:39:34PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: I feel there is a difference between shoeing for gait enhancement and shoeing for protection. Two completely different things in my view. I have absolutely no problem when an owner shoes for protection because circumstances warrant it. Shoeing to 'balance' a gait is another thing entirely. what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I'll send you one if you like, I have some left (can't say they really made any difference whatsoever at the dentist, I was still shaking like a bloody leaf ; ( ) you should have asked for laughing gas. I had that one time and I kept telling them it had no affect on me, then they started drilling a little kid in the next room and he started screaming and I started laughing and couldnt stop, I was holding my belly and weeping it was so funny. sorta embarrassing later actually... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 27/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? --vicka How would that be done? Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? How would that be done? walking horse people who alter gait say to cure pace you weight the frint, to cure trot you weight the back. I bet starnji's change had something to do with the rear feet. or would that be the opposite... maybe the rear feet were cut too short or too long? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:06:24PM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? How would that be done? mostly it seemed to involve giving him a beveled edge, rather than leaving the hoof wall long where it developed many chips and seemed painful and sensitive. but i am not a farrier; this is just an uninformed observation. walking horse people who alter gait say to cure pace you weight the frint, to cure trot you weight the back. I bet starnji's change had something to do with the rear feet. or would that be the opposite... maybe the rear feet were cut too short or too long? his rear feet had been bare for almost a year, and aside from some what my farrier called slight flaring near the heels were in good shape. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?/Post from Sally and Skye
--- Debbie K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will restate though that if I had to put shoes on, for what ever reason, maybe transition to barefoot if I bought a new horse, I would use the natural balance shoes that Gene O has, however, you really need to get them on correctly and change them out every 4 weeks `Well I will have to disagree with this partially, Debbie. The tendency to generalize (and then set yourself up to feel judgmental about other people's practices) regarding care is something that I have noticed with people who have learned to successfully trim their own horse's feet in their own particular environment.For your horses in your environment something might be absolutely valid, and I respect your discovery, but it will not always necessarily work for every horse. The use of Natural Balance shoes really depends on the horse, their individual issue and the environment, just like any other thing. Sally studied with Gene Ovnick for 2 full days one-on-one here, in Hawaii. We took him to all of our difficult cases and our clients paid him for a consult and to work on their horse's feet. We even paid him to work on 2 of our horses feet with us...1 rescue foundered TWH mare, and Sally's ranch horse who was given to her partially due to his bad feet. Just to say that all shoes should be changed out every 4 weeks is not correct, Gene himself had us leave some horse's shoes on for up to 3 months, depending on the environment, (wet or dry, mainly) the hoof growth and the issue at hand with that horse. For example, to pull the shoes off a very slow growing hoof just because 'its time' and renail it with minimal trimming just causes concussion and swiss cheese nail holes. I do agree that they (NB shoes) need to be put on correctly. The trim is a natural balance trim, which really is just plain good trimming, even Gene says that, and the shoe must be placed properly (ie set back to the sole callus) in order to get the proper breakover and the benefit for the horse. We see a lot of them put on just like a keg shoeno benefit for the horse that way really, and then they do not work and then people think its a bunch of crap, so they won't try it when its needed for their horses when someone comes along that has studied with Gene and knows what they are doing(a little rant, yes). If my horse needs shoes/protection, I figure out WHY they are NOT SOUND, cause to me that is what I believe, if they are not sound, then there is an underlying reason that they are not sound on any terrain I ride on... This is where some people who put shoes on their horse begin to feel a little judged, as many people have gone through that process as well, and the horse, terrain and environment and style of riding just do not allow for barefoot. For example, I challenge anyone to ride their barefoot horse all day with me on crushed lava in the wet jungle, and then turn them out in any pasture in this area. I would really, honestly love to see this, I'm not being sarcastic. To keep a horse barefoot here I would have to stall or small paddock my horse on ($$$)imported dirt and ride with 4 hoof boots. I choose not to stall or intensively confine my horses, I have tried this and they HATE it, so I decided to let them live 'naturally' in my rocky abrasive pasture, rather than artificially confine them in order to have them 'naturally' barefoot. Gets confusing, doesn't it?:) Here is my question to those of you who feel shoes are important... Do you know what a sound foot looks like, how many of you can pick up a foot and say, this is the live sole, this is the white line, this is a round foot with a tight white line, this is a foot with a stretched white line, I think shoes are important if the horse needs them to be comfortable in his own environment, but I agree every horse lover needs to know what a really healthy foot looks like, and they are relatively rare. well shoes can cause that to happen, the mechanics of it, pulls the Hoof wall away from the Coffin bone,,the white line pulls away, the greeblies get in there, and cause the white line to stretch more.. if the hoof wall is to long, the mechanics of it, causes the white line to stretch, It is kind of a mechanical founder, it is painful.. so most people just throw a shoe on... if your horses foot has a DIP or curve, flare, then that area is not connected correctly to the coffin bone, the coffin bone can drop, the foot becomes flat, a sound foot is NOT FLAT... a Metal shoe does not correct that, it can cover up the pain, but it can not correct it... Sally responds: Well, where do I start? It is interesting that we agree on many points, but come at this from different perspectives. . . Shoes in and of themselves do not cause white line to stretch and the toe to dip and flare. Period. Lack of trimming, (toes too long) poor metabolism, and lack of movement and traditional shoeing styles that set the shoe out in front of the toe
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:51:47PM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: his rear feet had been bare for almost a year, and aside from some what my farrier called slight flaring near the heels were in good shape. could the farrier be doing them a little long? i wouldn't honestly know how to tell. but they look quite round to me. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
could the farrier be doing them a little long? i wouldn't honestly know how to tell. but they look quite round to me. well my horses feet are so horrible right now I'm afraid for even the farrier to see them. but last time he came he said all the horses feet around here are real bad because we are in an extreme drought. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Nov 26, 2007 11:16 AM, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The three miles of tarmac roads, half a mile gravel and rock driveway and stone path to get to it (it´s part of a bridleway leading to the beach). We are not all lucky enough to ride on nice paths, or keep our horses in areas where there´s a dry season for hooves to get hard. Mic Debbie wrote Well, I am sure if you wanted to figure out a way to go barefoot, that with some brainstorming we could figure out a way for you to do it...my horses could ride this with no problem I am sure, and if they had a problem, I would put boots on for that part then take them off when I got to the beach... with the goal that they would eventually be sound for the entire ride... You see this is what I have been talking about Debbie...this judgment of others for not being able to go barefootyou have no idea how your horses would do in the environment that Mic or others live in. Sally and I have what I call a unique experience as our island has 11 out of 13 climate zones and more varied terrain in a small area that I have ever seen on the mainland. Because of this we shoe and trim horses in more climate zones than any other farrier or barefoot trimmers that we are aware of. I have a feeling that Mics environment can be as troublesome for horses as the environment at 2000-4000 feet elevation towards the volcano, wet and boggyyet the roads are gravelled and very rocky so that cars can travel on themthe wet environment is very difficult as the feet never really have a chance to really be dry and get rock hard. Most wild horses that the studies are done on do not live in environments like these. We have a small herd of wild ponies here on island, they are Waipio ponies...they are amazing, small and hardy, and some have a soft gait. They have GREAT Feet, but move miles in a day, in varied terrain and have dry areas150 years of them living wild has given them this...Sally and I love going down to the valley and looking at the wild horses and donkeys...but they are not asked to do what a horse owner would want them to do. We have one client who has 2 of these ponies...both are just 6 miles from where they were born in the valley, but they have moved up the mountain to a rainy location in deep pasture with a pond and hillsin order to ride on the gravel and rocky roads they must have front shoes or be booted. PERIOD. They live in a cush pasture and are asked to carry weight on a rocky roadwild horses do not have to do that. What we ask of our horses is not natural it is hard, but please know that some of us have gone through great expense and time to try to transition...for some it just can not be done. We have flown Sabine Kells over , Gene Ovnick...studied everything that Pete Ramey and Jaimie Jackson has ever written...Sally is a Physician so endless reading comes easy and is enjoyable for her as she absorbs and can really understand the vet studies. And some of us want to keep our horses in a more natural setting in a large pasture with their herd yet still ride them out. Our mare and babies are pastured out on a 2000 acre pasture...they are not shod there, we can ride them there in their pasture, but certainly can not take them out on the gravel/lava roads that surrounds it. At our home, they must have shoes or they will be in pain on the pasture that they love and feeds them well. Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, just trying to get across that some of us have tried, real hard, yet it does not work for us or our horses. So please have some understanding and know you and your horses are lucky to have the good feet and an environment that works well for both of you. And the fact the you have become competent in trimming your own horses feet. Most owners can not really do it...we even shoe and trim for a guy who is a retired farrierhe would rather pay us than do it himself...he is tired..its a hard job. We would be happy if we could get all the owners just to treat their feet once a week in the wetter areas for thrush.but the fact is most owners do not want to really learn how to trim their horses feet themselves and it takes time, patience and the physical and mental ability. My hats off to you! Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
For the Record, I personally am trying Not to judge, I did state that putting shoes on a horse to make it gait, when it is perfectly sound on the trails ridden means to me that the horse is not naturally gaited... I was reminded that it might also not be trimmed correctly, which I should have added... I know that going barefoot is a huge commitment and not everyone has the ability to do it... for me, going barefoot is a personal choice... I think more horses can go barefoot then are at the moment. I think it is easier done then one thinks is is going to be, it is not really cheaper, I feel I represent the barefoot world in pretty normal, to extreme trail riders on many terrains... and if I can go barefoot in this area on the trails I ride on, then I think many more people can go barefoot then are... I don't mean to come across judgemental at all.. if I am, I am sorry I try to stay calm, cool and collected now when discussing it... I think where people really need to start is when the foal is born... lots of exercise, lots of movement, start from the get go with foals, and yes better breeding and I think barefoot will be easier from the beginning... the barefoot trim is different then a typical pasture trim... and I am not sure if people are aware of all of this, we are discussing this very subject on the barefoothorsecare list, there are many who are much better at explaining things then I am on that list... so, I welcome any of you to join it -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?/Post from Sally and Skye
Skye and Sally, I don't have time to reply to all... I did want to say, that for me, I would have to change them out every 4 weeks, Sometimes I type to fast, Thanks for catching me... I was trying to be careful with my words and state what I would do, I think you have said a lot of great things in your post, Metabolically, trim style, what we all need to be aware of when we trim or someone else trims our horses, I watch mine like a hawk... and keep after the break over as needed, Dan is home, time to do chores... -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
The three miles of tarmac roads, half a mile gravel and rock driveway and stone path to get to it (it´s part of a bridleway leading to the beach). We are not all lucky enough to ride on nice paths, or keep our horses in areas where there´s a dry season for hooves to get hard. Well, I am sure if you wanted to figure out a way to go barefoot, that with some brainstorming we could figure out a way for you to do it...my horses could ride this with no problem I am sure, and if they had a problem, I would put boots on for that part then take them off when I got to the beach... with the goal that they would eventually be sound for the entire ride... You see this is what I have been talking about Debbie...this judgment of others for not being able to go barefootyou have no idea how your horses would do in the environment that Mic or others live in. Well, this is where we disagree, I was NOT TRYING TO be judgmental, I was trying to HELP... I am sorry you feel I was being judgemental... she is talking about a path that is not very far as being the only difficult part for her horse... I don't understand putting shoes on for that amount of riding... I was trying to be encouraging, not judgemental... I was trying to be helpful... Debbie in SE MN -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I know that going barefoot is a huge commitment and not everyone has the ability to do it... Why is it a huge commitment? If the horses are suitable for barefoot, they can do it. If it's THAT hard to transition to, maybe it's not being done correctly, or maybe the circumstances aren't right for that horse to go without shoes. I know plenty of people whose horses mostly go barefoot, but who put shoes on them for trail riding/show season, or for some other specific, finite reason. I know people who pull their horse's shoes for the winter and put the shoes back when they need them. That's basically the attitude we had when we pulled our horse's shoes 17-18 years ago - we knew we weren't going to be riding hard for a while, so we pulled them, bought EZ boots, and found we never needed them again. It was easy. I never really heard this attitude about barefoot being a huge commitment until the nouveau Barefoot Nazis hit the scene about 8-10 years ago. Up until then, barefoot was an easy choice for some of us, one that didn't have to be all or nothing. I DO believe barefoot is better, when it works, and I do believe that more horses could be barefoot than are. But when I hear people talk about how hard it is to transition to barefoot...well, let's just say that I suspect they are setting me to so they can sell me something. Sheesh, why did it suddenly become difficult when a few people started selling books and clinics on the subject? Barefoot CAN be easy, and it should be. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? A horse's feet should be trimmed such that his feet are in balance with his conformation, so that his joints aren't stressed. When that happens, and all else is well (no tight saddles, no back pain, no harsh bits or harsh riding, etc.) then the horse will do the gaits he was built to do. Gait originates in the horse's back and rear-end, not in his feet. Some horses will be nicely gaited when trimmed/shod in balance, some will be three-gaited, and some will be pacey. While trot CAN be a good gait to build strength in a horses back, not all horses are built to trot. Personally, I think it's just as cruel to try to force a pacey horse to trot as it is to force a three-gaited horse to gait. Trot can be good for a horse, but only if it's a gait within the horse's natural range of gaits. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I AM DONE FOR NOW... I feel picked on with every dam word I say, I AM DONE... if you want to KNOW about barefooting, fine, write me privately, if you want to pick apart every dam word I say, then think twice about emailing me, cause I will not reply... sorry to you who have been polite and want to know, but dam it, I am tired of looking at every email and feeling like I am being targeted for riding barefoot and talking about it... I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
I feel there is a difference between shoeing for gait enhancement and shoeing for protection. Two completely different things in my view. I have absolutely no problem when an owner shoes for protection because circumstances warrant it. Shoeing to 'balance' a gait is another thing entirely. A couple of years ago at the local annual farrier's education clinic, a few of our farriers did a segment called Trade-offs in hoof care. Basically, one farrier would point out the advantages to one aspect of shoeing/trimming, and then the next one would give the counterpoints to the same aspect. There are very few things about any aspect of horse-ownership that don't have pro's and con's associated. It's the day-to-day struggle we face as horse-owners - always having to pick the lesser of the evils. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 05:14:28PM -0600, Debbie K. wrote: I know that going barefoot is a huge commitment and not everyone has the ability to do it... for me, going barefoot is a personal choice... i happen to know two people who go barefoot (except when in places that require shoes, such as restaurants) pretty much all the time, by choice. i gather it does require quite the commitment, at least to begin with, but after awhile it is not esp. uncomfortable. i was just wondering if any of the barefoot-horse advocates here had made such choices for themselves. (neither of my barefoot-people friends keeps horses.) --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? --vicka If he naturally trots and didn't after a trim, I would think the trim was done incorrectly. I think some people encourage high heels and long toes for gait which would likely mess up the trot. A barefoot trim should be done according to the individual horse's hoof topography, not to any standardized angles. When his feet are trimmed to his individual needs he should be able to do all his normal gaits. If he had been shod for a long time, it would take time for the sole callus to thicken (assuming he lives on the type of terrain he will be riding on) and during that time a horse might need to wear boots to be comfortable ridden. Cherie Western North Carolina Lilja, Roka (Icelandics)and Tyra (Fjord)
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
If he naturally trots and didn't after a trim, I would think the trim was done incorrectly. Or, it can be the opposite, and with many gaited horses, I think the opposite is more often true. Many horses are bred pacey, but are squared up with shoes. If you take their shoes away, the natural lateralness returns. Mac always had some natural gait, but after we removed his big shoes, he went pacey - not 100% a hard pacer, but certainly a horse that wasn't meant to trot. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
again, i think we are confusing barefoot with barefoot... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 11/27/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: walking horse people who alter gait say to cure pace you weight the frint, to cure trot you weight the back. But we know better than that, right? Gait doesn't originate in the feet. yeah but it works right? I dont know how but it does, people put weighted shoes on the front and it makes a pacey horse square up right? all that weighted shoe stuff does have an effect. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 11/27/07, Cherie Mascis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? If he naturally trots and didn't after a trim, I would think the trim was done incorrectly. I think some people encourage high heels and long toes for gait which would likely mess up the trot. A barefoot trim should be done according to the individual horse's hoof topography, not to any standardized angles. When his feet are trimmed to his individual needs he should be able to do all his normal gaits. If he had been shod for a long time, it would take time for the sole callus to thicken (assuming he lives on the type of terrain he will be riding on) and during that time a horse might need to wear boots to be comfortable ridden. yeah, that makes sense... janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Geez..you guys. I don't know why some of you are picking on Debbie. I feel that way, so I wonder how she must be feeling. I have know Debbier ...for many, many years...seems like forever. And the whole time I have known Debbie...she has been a barefooter. Sure, off and on over they years, she has mentioned barefooting to me, but NOT ONCE...did she shove it down my throat or tell me that I was a bad horse owner for shoeing my horses. In fact...Debbie has always supported my decision to shoe my horses, knowing that I was making the best decision that I could make...for MY HORSES. During this past year...as I was transitioning Huginn from shoes to barefooting, she supported me and gave me a ton of help. Sure...I don't do it the way she does it..but she still supports me. And I know that if I decide to show Huginn, she would give me the look ...but she would support my decision. Please believe me when I say...I have met Barefooting Fanatics and Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. Geez...guys...let's be nice to each other. Please. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
what has happened is that the horse has reverted to the gaits that God equipped him to have. It may not be the gaits you want, but it's what he's got YES!! Anyone who knows Hugie Bear.. knows that he is not the best tolter. He is what he is! I love him just that way he is. He may not give me the best tolt, but thanks to the goddess, he gives me a great partnership and we have a blast together. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? / Tradeoffs
Trade-offs in hoof care. Basically, one farrier would point out the advantages to one aspect of shoeing/trimming, and then the next one would give the counterpoints to the same aspect. Yes, I think there are always tradeoffs. For instance, say you have a horse that needs some weight to be able to do a particular gait better than what he was conformed to do, or what he can do naturally. That weight is fine and dandy and makes him gait perfectly. Until ...that weight has negatively affected, over the years, some tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc. and then the horse starts having some problems either with pain or gait or whatever. Would these resultant problems be connected to the years of carrying shoes? Maybe not. Maybe they should be. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Raven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geez..you guys. I don't know why some of you are picking on Debbie. I feel that way, so I wonder how she must be feeling. i just feel like there is some confusion, some misunderstanding... i personally am confused. I feel like she is talking about one thing and people are disagreeing talking about another thing. I like debbie too. Debbie is cool, and I like her track system altho I would never put down gravel for my horses to walk across on purpose since I have a sorta fear and loathing of gravel since it gave jas a lethal stone bruise one time. but I get it that you should try and toughen their feet :) maybe everyone should just chill until we get over our thanksgiving sugar withdrawals. Everyone on the gaited list is maddern the dickens at me for saying the running walk is nearly extinct in the waliking horse breed and heck even Lee Z said that many times and Liz says it all the time but I say it and everyone acts like 1. they never heard it before and 2. I must be from a part of the country where walking horses are mutated or something because gee, ALL their foxtrotters just runningwalk everywhere they go! all of them! and when i said you should love your poor ol stepping pacing walker like Jas for what he is they came swarming out like fireants and one person said she's personally cured many many horses of the stepping pace. ! amazing. it has to be the pumpkin pie syndrome. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
all that weighted shoe stuff does have an effect. Janice Maybe a better way to say it, instead of have an effect would be to say that it has a cost. I don't care about short-term fixes as much as I do the long-term effects. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
Please believe me when I say...I have met Barefooting Fanatics and Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. Barefoot fanatics won't ride with you...? That's past fanatic and into what I call the Barefoot Nazis. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
On 11/27/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please believe me when I say...I have met Barefooting Fanatics and Debbie is not one of them!! She will still ride with you...even when you shoe your horse! Barefoot fanatics will not. no way! people like that exist?? janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
YES!! Anyone who knows Hugie Bear.. knows that he is not the best tolter. He is what he is! I love him just that way he is. He may not give me the best tolt, but thanks to the goddess, he gives me a great partnership and we have a blast together. Yes, that's the attitude I think we SHOULD have. There are lots of nice soft gaits, and many Icelandic's can do many of them...and step pace and trot may be all that some can easily do. Who cares? When I breed (bred?) I wanted to breed for nicely gaited horses, but for my personal pleasure, I can enjoy a horse with about ANY gait, including trot. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1153 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? / Tradeoffs
That weight is fine and dandy and makes him gait perfectly. ... Until ...that weight has negatively affected, over the years, some tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc. and then the horse starts having some problems either with pain or gait or whatever. I got that lecture with my very first equine vet farm call, before I literally owned a horse. I called the vet out to do a pre-purchase on Mac, who was still in his Big Lick shoes and pads. The vet asked me what I planned to do with him, and I told him I wanted to take the pads off and make him a pleasure/trail horse. He looked relieved, and told me I was darned lucky that Mac didn't appear to be lame from the years of abuse, but warned me that some could still show up.(I put it in quotes, because I don't think Mac was ever sored or beaten, or literally mistreated, but just wearing those shoes/pads and staying in a stall most of the time was enough abuse for me.) He then said he probably wasn't a prime candidate for jumping, endurance, or anything extreme, since there was no doubt that his joints had had plenty of strain already - but that he appeared fine for a pleasure horse prospect. He also told me that we'd need to take our time in bringing his feet back to normal length and angles, so that the tendons and ligaments could re-adjust gradually. I've never had a problem with pulling any horse's shoes making them sore or tender, but correcting Mac's angles and balance back to normal took ages. Mac wasn't quite five when we started taking his feet back to normal. Sure his feet were rather extreme, but I know that lesser extremes could have similar effects, if left for longer periods, or if the horses are ridden harder than Mac was ridden. It took over a year to get Mac's feet under control. About a year after that, he started letting him be barefoot...and that part was a piece of cake. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1155 - Release Date: 11/27/2007 8:30 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I haven't put shoes on any of my horses for 20+ years and they did just fine. It wasn't a barefoot trim it was just a good trim. For the record, I am slightly handicapped and my legs are very spastic. I need a very smooth horse. The trot and most canters don't work for me. I wish they did.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 09:24:41PM -0500, Cherie Mascis wrote: what do you think of changing stjarni's barefoot trim so he can trot? If he naturally trots and didn't after a trim, I would think the trim was done incorrectly. i guess the question is, how do we know what's natural? few of us have the opportunity to turn our horses out in the wild for a few years, and i'm not sure stjarni, with his fetish for tuna salad, would even enjoy that. (the actual history: stjarni had shoes. stjarni trotted (and tolted). farrier did not show up for the nth time. stjarni threw a shoe. vicka got peeved and said just trim him barefoot. stjarni lost his trot. vicka got more peeved. vicka hired barefoot trimmer. vicka put stjarni on hoof supplement and topical hoof hardener. stjarni's trot returned.) (now vicka worries about oncoming ice and lack of borium, but holds grudges against nastybad farriers and so far merely continues to worry :/ ) i practice aikido (and have for many many years) and the more i work with beginners these days, the more i find myself saying things like just stand there, like a normal person and don't PUSH, just let your hands fall to your sides, where they usually go. it's incredible just how hard it is to act natural, let alone move correctly. i suspect that hoof-trimming, which comes even less naturally to most people than standing or having their hands by their sides, must be even harder to learn to somehow get right. my hat's off to whomever can do it. i did buy stjarni a pair of boots, but aside from a few times in the ring to get him used to them, we haven't actually used them -- the assorted other adjustments over the last three months seem to have taken care of most of his pain issues (and we have rocky, gravelly trails around here). it's nice to be comfortable galloping over those trails again, though; i like ring riding as much as the next person, but it is lovely to be out and about again :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
again, i think we are confusing barefoot with barefoot as in pasture barefoot to trimming for barefoot as in wild horse? Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes? ---Debbie
I like debbie too. Debbie is cool Debbie is very cool! I like her track system Huginn and Dixie LOVE the track that Debbie has in Huginn's Pasture (at Debbie's house). it has to be the pumpkin pie syndrome. Or way too much shopping! Let's remember what this season is all about, it ain;t shopping, it's Peace on Mother Earth. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
If he naturally trots and didn't after a trim, I would think the trim was done incorrectly. i guess the question is, how do we know what's natural? vicka hired barefoot trimmer. vicka put stjarni on hoof supplement and topical hoof hardener. stjarni's trot returned.) (now vicka worries about oncoming ice and lack of borium, but holds grudges against nastybad farriers and so far merely continues to worry :/ ) Ok, If he was trimmed correctly for being barefoot by a good trimmer and trotted after that then I guess he has the conformation to trot. They put the studs on shoes because metal shoes are really slippery on slick surfaces. Barefoot horses have better traction on slippery surfaces than shod horses, but you should still watch your speed in areas that might be icy. Cherie Western North Carolina Lilja, Roka (Icelandics)and Tyra (Fjord)
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:35:49 -0800 (PST), you wrote: No, if they need protection I put on boa's, very rarely does this happen.. You ride a lot through 12 inch deep clay mud? You know a boot that will stay on in that??? PLEASE, tell me!!! Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
how many of you are able to ride barefoot always and who feels they need to shoe? Huginn has been BAREFOOT for ONE YEAR NOW!!! YAHOO!! We have had NO problems with lameness, ouchiness, and he is gaitinig. I have only had to boot Huginn once, and that was in June when we rode at Forestville State Park. The trails there are gravel...heavy duty gravel. The first day, I did not boot Huginn cuz...we were setting up the mounted orienteering course and were reallyjust walking. BTW...I took Dixie on this day and she was also fine...barefoot. She also recieves a barefoot trim from my barefoot trimmer. The rest of the weekend, I did boot Huginn, cuz I would be moving out and I didn't know how his hooves will do, and I didn't want to take the risk...at the fast speed that I ride. But..since then...he has not been booted. It took me yearsyears to decide to try barefooting. Why...because I ride...hard and long, and I was concerned that I would hurt my horses by riding in that manner...barefoot. When Easy Care came out with the Barefoot Boot, I was very interested in trying this boot. And then...I got lucky...I found a AANHCP trimmer in my area. Granted...I feel that I am lucky to have a pony with great hooves! Actually, both Huginn and Dixie have great hooves. Remember...Dixie also trail rides, she is ponied off Huginn and her limit is about 5 miles. Them little legs just keep going, she is so darn cute...trotting down the trail next to Huginn. ;8] Will I ever go back to shoes...most likely not. But, should my pony ever have the need for shoes for whatever reason, I would shoe. I'm not anit-shoes. I am totally for doing what is best for my ponies. And if a horse can not go soundlybarefoot, than by all means shoe that horse. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Just wondering ...how much money to put in a system like that in your area? I will be putting (trying) a track system in my small pasture next year. Huginn and Dixie LOVELOVE Debbie's track that she has set up in the Huginn Pasture at her farm. They move...round and round on the track, Dixie LOVES the little hill that Debbie has set up in one corner of the Huginn Pasture. She will climb up and just stand there. :] HA! I will lay gravel down ...at the entrance into my barn and at the gate. This way, they will walk on gravel when going in and out of the paddock and into the barn for grain/water. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
There are three valid reasons that horses are shod: protection, traction, or to effect a therapeutic change necessary for the horse's health. All else is vanity Like I saidHuginn is barefoot and I WILL BOOT as needed. I am not anti-shoes...if a horses needs them..then use them. Traction...I have discovered that Huginn has much better traction ...barefoot. With shoes...there were many times, we were slipping and slidiing on wet grass and slick rocks. Not so...barefoot. Protection...I will use boots if my pony needs extra hoof protection. I am not one of those persons who feel that is a horse is barefootthen they must not use boot protection. Therapeutic...by all means, is a horse needs shoe for health reason...shoe the horse. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
No, if they need protection I put on boa's, very rarely does this happen.. You ride a lot through 12 inch deep clay mud? You know a boot that will stay on in that??? PLEASE, tell me!!! If I am riding in that kind of stuff, I don't need boots... Why would I need boots for that I take boa's on my horse, in a bag, on his saddle, and they usually stay there... my horses all have great feet NOW... it took time, patience and study, life style change for them and me, to get them all sound barefoot... it works for me... I do not see myself going back to shoes in the foreseeable future, I will restate though that if I had to put shoes on, for what ever reason, maybe transition to barefoot if I bought a new horse, I would use the natural balance shoes that Gene O has, however, you really need to get them on correctly and change them out every 4 weeks, If my horse needs shoes/protection, I figure out WHY they are NOT SOUND, cause to me that is what I believe, if they are not sound, then there is an underlying reason that they are not sound on any terrain I ride on... It can be Metabolic, trimming style, ground they live on 24/7... not enough movement, stall bound ETC, there are many possible reasons... I figure out why they are not sound and Change it... If I have to put on the boots, I question why too??? Cause as far as I am concerned, with the amount of riding I DO, they all should be sound barefoot... I try to ride 3-5 days a week 2-6 hours at a time on various terrain... This summer that did not happen, but most summers it does... So yes, to clarify, if you have to put shoes on, Then your horse is NOT SOUND for the environment you are riding on... I prefer to have very SOUND horses... who live on the environment I ride on... Here is my question to those of you who feel shoes are important... Do you know what a sound foot looks like, how many of you can pick up a foot and say, this is the live sole, this is the white line, this is a round foot with a tight white line, this is a foot with a stretched white line, which is like a finger nail on us that has PULLED away from the quick, DANG that hurts, well shoes can cause that to happen, the mechanics of it, pulls the Hoof wall away from the Coffin bone, the white line pulls away, the greeblies get in there, and cause the white line to stretch more.. if the hoof wall is to long, the mechanics of it, causes the white line to stretch, It is kind of a mechanical founder, it is painful.. so most people just throw a shoe on... if your horses foot has a DIP or curve, flare, then that area is not connected correctly to the coffin bone, the coffin bone can drop, the foot becomes flat, a sound foot is NOT FLAT... a Metal shoe does not correct that, it can cover up the pain, but it can not correct it... My husband always says, humm, why do you think a 1/4 inch piece of metal works??? what is it doing??? I also can not stand knowing that nails go up into the white line... bringing in bacteria and fungus, the round Robin continues... it weakens the white line, the very spot I am trying to heal and keep tight... it is like, putting the little shoes on the poor China girl babies, I just cringe when I see shoes on horses, at least with boots for protection... Do what feels right for you, I did the shoe thing.. for 25 years... or more...I know where you are coming from... I understand.. I once believed it too.. but then I changed... it was an easy change once I understood the hoof... Once I understood how a hoof is suppose to look, the light bulb went on... it simply made sense... There are many sights out there with pictures to show you if you want to learn... it really is amazingly interesting... I am not as fanatic about it as I first was, It has become simpler for me, easier, no nonsense.. it is a lifestyle for me... and it works... I am more then happy to help anyone take this journey... I have many people who have read my words.. then they have researched it for themselves and switched... I can guide you, any of you, I can not Explain it all, it would take PAGES, books, TONS... I can just tell you that it works for me, as well as MANY OTHERS all over the world... and send you to some of the MANY pages of info, books, video available today... oh, and for the barefoot is a fad, it will go away comment that Pam made, I have heard that before... the number of people on the barefoot lists has gone from just a handful to 1000's and the number of lists available has gone from 2 to many, many, many... over the past years.. the number of Guru's has gone from 2 - countless... the number of Dollars going into research has increased... I don't see riding barefoot going away oh and the NUMBER OF BOOTS, well, I have boa's because 5 years ago, they were one of the 3 types I had to choose from, they work.. but there are NEW BOOTS being designed yearly... Easy care has 5 different kinds available I think right now... maybe one of those will work in that deep
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
I am gonna put shoes on for their gait Pam..if your Ice Ponies...need shoes for gaiting, then they are not naturally gaited. Huginn is not the best tolter...but he does still gait and without shoes. Sure ...I guess if I wanted him to be a tolting machine, I could try shoes or heavy shoes, but why? Huginn is what he is. I think that using shoes for gait enhancement is a gimmick. And I would perfer to work in improving his gaits on the trail. The secone summer that I had Huginn...that is ALL I worked on...improving his gait, by riding him slow...improving his walk actually helped his gait ALOT. We did tons of hill work, slow and long rides, and when he asked to move out, I would only allow it ...if he presented me with tolt. If he offered trot, I would ask him to slow down again and then..he finally figured it out, hey, i can move out...fast...if i give raven...tolt. Some horses are not built for tolting, and I think that Huginn is built more for trot, but he does have tolt in him. He just needed to learn how to do it naturally, without a ill fitting saddle, heavy shoes and a tight noseband. One of the things that I love about Huginn is the fact that he can TROT and TOLT. I love his trot, it's smooth and easy to post. And riding him in trot...builds up his back. ;] I sure wish you were not thinking of using shoes for gait enhancment. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Ya know, Pam, then she must not be naturally gaited if she has to have shoes on to gait... that makes no sense to me, no shoes, no gait... There are other reasons she may not gait, have you thought of them??? shoes/no shoes/ all the things you mention, could disturb gait, throw the timing off, but in a naturally gaited horse it will return when the problem goes away. Or when shod or shoes or pulled, give it time and it will go away when they get their timing back. but a horse that has never gaited without some device and gaits with it and then when the device is pulled doesnt gait, that isnt a naturally gaited horse. but gaited horses, any of them, can have spells where the gait is off. like my Fix, he is awesome gaited at the runningwalk, but when nervous, tense, afraid, excited, he throws his head high and does a saddlerack, still a smooth gait and if I didnt know better I would accept and encourage that as his gait, but I know better. I am just glad I let him do his natural thing because its awesome and otherwise i would have gone for the saddlerack and missed it. My stonewall is a saddleracker but when he wore shoes for three months and I pulled them he couldnt gait for about three rides. Then it came back. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
You ride a lot through 12 inch deep clay mud? You know a boot that will stay on in that??? PLEASE, tell me!!! HAHA!! I think in deep mud, Huginn would be bootless. Now..finding a boot that will stay on in deep mud and fast rushing rivers would be so nice! I lost a brand NEW boot in the Rush River..it was deep and running...fast. Darn...was I mad! . Remember Debbie? HAHA! Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 07:44:54PM -0600, Debbie K. wrote: Ya know, Pam, then she must not be naturally gaited if she has to have shoes on to gait... that makes no sense to me, no shoes, no gait... well, nor are all barefoot states created equal. when stjarni first was without shoes (not a decision based on moral issues, just that my farrier sucked) he quite completely lost his trot. would it be fair to then say that no shoes, no trot was true for my horse? esp. when, three months, some dietary supplements, some topical hoof support, and two decent barefoot trims later, he trots beautifully? and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
gaited horses, any of them, can have spells where the gait is off. like my Fix, he is awesome gaited at the runningwalk, but when nervous, tense, afraid, excited, he throws his head high and does a saddlerack, still a smooth gait Ya know what Huginn gaits the best? When he is mad at me!! HAHA!! Then...he's a tolting machine. Butthead pony!! Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
i think i have accidentally a natural track system in the front of my property. It is all natural woods with old paths cut thru by the former owner who had an atv and a child and they would atv the paths over and over. My horses are let out in the front regularly and when they are they go along these paths and will get playing etc. they seem to enjoy it. there is a fallen tree on one path and it is about three feet off the ground and you can always see the heavy dig marks on each side where they come around the corner and skid and then line up and jump it :) Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? well yes, it would to me, because personally I believe if you prefer a trot you should buy a trotting breed horse and not a gaited horse. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? Good point Vicka, however, you are also saying that with the right barefoot trim and some other changes he is trotting again... so, you farretted out the problem, made the necessary changes and found his trot again... Pam is saying that her farrier is excellent... and that the gait is gone... that she has to wear shoes to gait.. I am stating that if a horse has to wear shoes to gait.. then the gait is not natural... Personally I think if she used Raven's barefoot trimmer, she would find that her Icy would gait after a few trims, I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
well yes, it would to me, because personally I believe if you prefer a trot you should buy a trotting breed horse and not a gaited horse. Janice, that is a whole nother topic, Jewel is multigaited, I love the trot and the gaits he does, I did not teach him any of them either, he came with them, I got him as a very GREEN 4 year old... LOVE HIM, in fact, I never knew he was gaited when I bought him... Raven saw us, which is how I met her, and told me he was gaited.. he is a STUNNING horse to look at when I met her he was in his prime... I would be very disappointed and am bored now, when I ride a horse that is not multigaited... to me it is simply a PLUS to have both... But then, we have all decided I am a bit odd anyway, :) I grew up with Arabians, and we never allowed them to Gait, OH, but when dad was not watching, I DID... I really did not know what it was, just that it was FUN, FUN, FUN and FAST Now, I know we were Speed Racking, or Singlefooting or Racking... some form of a soft gait, I don't remember any foxtrots now that I think about it... In fact, if I could find a multigaited Arabian Mare, I would buy her... -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:02:31AM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? well yes, it would to me, because personally I believe if you prefer a trot you should buy a trotting breed horse and not a gaited horse. i bought a five-gaited horse. i love ALL his gaits. his trot is a wonder and a joy. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
I grew up with Arabians, and we never allowed them to Gait, OH, but when dad was not watching, I DID... I really did not know what it was, just that it was FUN, FUN, FUN and FAST Now, I know we were Speed Racking, or Singlefooting or Racking... some form of a soft gait, I don't remember any foxtrots now that I think about it... In fact, if I could find a multigaited Arabian Mare, I would buy her... -- where we used to live... they bred and sold these really expensive National Show Horses there and they were arabian and something else, an actual breed. Gosh they were beautiful. The breeder told me they racked I think, they ride them saddle seat. Which begs the question... how come you never see arabians or morgans or any of the more head high (for lack of a better word) breeds ridden in dressage... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:12:19AM -0600, Debbie K. wrote: and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? Good point Vicka, however, you are also saying that with the right barefoot trim and some other changes he is trotting again... so, you farretted out the problem, made the necessary changes and found his trot again... Pam is saying that her farrier is excellent... and that the gait is gone... that she has to wear shoes to gait.. i'm just wondering whether if she had a wonderful barefoot trimmer, her horse might not also gait barefoot. stjarni's trot is back and i am SO glad! Personally I think if she used Raven's barefoot trimmer, she would find that her Icy would gait after a few trims, or mine (barbara connors in southern ma :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
1. a barefoot horse which in my case, are horses trimmed to natural angles and are not shod. my trimmertrims my ponies accourding to their conformation. 2. The Barefoot method by strasser and others no way would i allow a strasser trimmer near my ponies. my trimmer used jamie jackson and pete remey methods. we have a barefoot method trimmer in our area and every horse he does goes lame and stays lame til the people finally catch on and go back to their normal farrier IMHO...a horse should NOT be lame or off or sore after a trimming or shoeing!! if that is happening...run away...fast from that trimmer/farrier. live in an area where you dont need shoes for any reason lucky duck! ;] Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Just for the record, I don't follow Strasser either, I did start down that trail, and I made things worse... I quickly switched back to a less radical trim I trim to the natural angles of the HOOF... not the shoulder, as the shoulder can change angles... as it is attched by muscle... like I have said many times, I have read, researched, expirimented and learned a great deal over the years, much more then I can type to any list, but, the info is available... I am off to work -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
personally I believe if you prefer a trot you should buy a trotting breed horse and not a gaited horse. IMHO...the best thing about riding an Icelandic is that they trot and also have smooth pleasure gaits (whatever they may be). :]Raven
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? well.it would depend on if you wanted trot in your gaited horse. sure ...it would be nice if all Huginn did was tolt, but i also enjoy his trot and i really do believe that it's good for his back to trot. ;] Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
In fact, if I could find a multigaited Arabian Mare, I would buy her... Actually, Janice, I think that's a little broad brushed. We had an Arab we showed in dressage and did quite well all the way through 4th level and there were several other Arabs I know that competed in dressage and did quite well. Also Morgans. -- Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:30:20AM -0600, Raven wrote: and does it make any difference that the gait he lost was his trot and not his tolt? well.it would depend on if you wanted trot in your gaited horse. sure ...it would be nice if all Huginn did was tolt, but i also enjoy his trot and i really do believe that it's good for his back to trot. ;] hm. i think it doesn't matter so much what i want, but what's healthiest for my horse. even if i didn't love his trot, it would worry me rather if his feet were in a state that disabled him from doing it. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 11/26/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hm. i think it doesn't matter so much what i want, but what's healthiest for my horse. even if i didn't love his trot, it would worry me rather if his feet were in a state that disabled him from doing it. --vicka yes i think if you know your horse and it suddenly switches to something else its a warning flag. Like recently my pacey jaspar started looking in pics more to the trotty side just around the time he started getting a hunters bump on his rump. but the vet says he is fine and he isnt lame but there was a change in him. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Pam is saying that her farrier is excellent... and that the gait is gone... that she has to wear shoes to gait. First off, both my girls tolt without shoes. Jolly did not lose her gait totally.I should have stated that. She has an awesome slow tolt but she had a super fast one before. Lukka has a great slow tolt and fast tolt. I am just curious to see what happens when I try shoes on both. It is my choice. I will stick with my farrier.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Nov 26, 2007 11:16 AM, Mic Rushen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:01:50 -0600, you wrote: If I am riding in that kind of stuff, I don't need boots... Why would I need boots for that The three miles of tarmac roads, half a mile gravel and rock driveway and stone path to get to it (it´s part of a bridleway leading to the beach). We are not all lucky enough to ride on nice paths, or keep our horses in areas where there´s a dry season for hooves to get hard. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen Well, I am sure if you wanted to figure out a way to go barefoot, that with some brainstorming we could figure out a way for you to do it... my horses could ride this with no problem I am sure, and if they had a problem, I would put boots on for that part then take them off when I got to the beach... with the goal that they would eventually be sound for the entire ride... -- I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On 26/11/2007, Pam Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: fast tolt. I am just curious to see what happens when I try shoes on both. It is my choice. I will stick with my farrier. Just be careful Pam, I've rehabbed a horse who had his gait manipulated. He always wore shoes before he arrived here and his feet were a mess. It took over a year before I could safely have a farrier work on him...he would bolt from the pain. Any good farrier will tell you that a horse requires at least three months without shoes during the course of the year. Gait manipulation with shoes is a mechanical fix that can threaten the long term soundness of your horse Those tender joints and tendons really take a beating at the best of times but if you add weight that affects the natural flight of the foot for an extended period of time all sorts of trouble can start.. And then there is spavin... I never had his joints x-rayed while he was here but I was told that there were 'shadows' on his previous x-rays that would indicate some trouble might be starting... AND he was sore, and had his off days. So if your girls are gaiting just fine now, why not leave things as they are. If you decide to mechanically manipulate their gaits, make sure you're in it for the long haul and can look after them when they start getting sore. I don't have the strength or the stomach for that anymore. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
I don't have the strength or the stomach for that anymore. MY GOD, I am putting a pair of shoes on my horses. Now it is manipulating the gait and it is gonna cause spavin. A pair of shoes. Unreal.
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
well yes, it would to me, because personally I believe if you prefer a trot you should buy a trotting breed horse and not a gaited horse. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo While I was out shopping for Icelandics, I rode a horse at a large farm (lots of imports). In order to get him to tolt, I was told to pull back and up on the reins - hard. After some time doing that I told the owner that if it took that much effort to get a horse to tolt, then I wasn't ever going to ask it to tolt. She got very, very angry and said that if I wan't going to tolt, then I should not be allowed to buy an Icelandic. Just seems weird to me that anyone would think that the Icelandic's only good attribute would be that one gait. I also watched the horses tolting on their own in the field and thought that if they can do it without their heads cranked up out there, then they probably didn't need to have their heads cranked up under saddle, either. (But I kept my mouth shut). I bought Drifa, who is five gaited, and who tolts nicely on a loose rein, bit or no bit. I actually don't care that she tolts (I know that is sacriligious, no need to flame) because she is such a lovely horse in so many other ways. Penny
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:15:27 -0800, you wrote: . how many of you are able to ride barefoot always and who feels they need to shoe? We have to shoe our riding horses, at least in front and sometimes all the way round. We have to ride on stony paths, gravel and tarmac roads a lot, but also through mud a fair bit where boots just don't stay on. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
--- Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On another list I'm on, those are fighting words, but ... how many of you are able to ride barefoot always and who feels they need to shoe? Nancy Yes Nancy, those would be fighting words over there, as they do not want to talk about barefoot and its benefits vs. shoeing when needed . Anyway, if your horse can go barefoot, we believe its best. That does not mean it can go without quality hoof care..good trimming at the intervals that the individual horse needs are best. It depends on the home pasture terrain, where you want to ride and how often the horse is worked and if there are any hoof conditions that may call for shoes for the horse to be comfortable. We desperatley tried barefoot here on our pastures, but the horn wears faster than the growth, so they need shoes here, or otherwise we would use boots to ride them in rocky area, which is most of our area One thing I mention is this, sometimes in the past we have had clients who are on a 6 week schedule, call us at 5 1/2 weeks to want to push the shoeing appointment forward another week because the feet look so goodwell then at 6 1/2 weeks they see a flare, or its beginning to look too long, then they call us to try to get us to come over right away to shoe.Really its best to figure out what interval your horse needs and stick to that, that way they are comfy and there feet can always look good and you will have less feet issues in the long run. Better to have the farrier come out before than after a problem arises, shoes or no shoes. Skye
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
--- Debbie K. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a barefooter, which is why I have the Track system with rocks, most use river rock, I use gravel, cause I ride on gravel... I have boots that I put on if my horse is ouchy, I don't use them often.. Just wondering ...how much money to put in a system like that in your area? Here it is cost prohibited for us, plus we like them to be in the biggest pasture we can give them for a natural horse lifestyle. A 15' X 15' gravel area would cost us $600 (Not spread out...) not including the fencing, (each post on our land costs us about $60 to put in...we use trees whenever possible!) plus the full feeding every month at $30 a bale. We have 1 client who has a half acre completley dry lot, and 2 of hers still have fronts and one is barefoot. (1 is a 6 year foundered case who can not walk without shoes...all the vets told her to put her down, but she is rideable for light trails riding with special shoes) None of our other clients would go for anything that labor intensive and costly. Skye
RE: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
We desperatley tried barefoot here on our pastures, but the horn wears faster than the growth, so they need shoes here, or otherwise we would use boots to ride them in rocky area, which is most of our area Skye, for those who don't realize where you live, you should probably point out that you live on The Big Island, the island of Hawaii in the state of Hawaii. Hawaii is probably some of the newest geography within the borders of the USA. The island is still forming with active volcanoes. (As opposed to the Hawaiian island of Kauai or even Oahu, which I would say are more seismically settled.) I only visited the island once, but maybe some list members have never been there. When I arrived on the island of Hawaii, I was fascinated and amazed at the terrain. Much of the land around the airport - and much of the island - resembles a giant, old parking lot, where the asphalt has buckled and developed huge potholes from lack of care - very stark and rugged. However, the parking lots of Hawaii are natural, produced by lava flows. In a way, it was almost ugly, but so dramatic to me that it transcended my traditional ideas of beauty. Before I visited, I assumed I'd like the garden island of Kauai much better than Hawaii, but I left the state with a new definition of geographical beauty. Hawaii, the big island, is certainly a beautiful state, with small areas of rainforests, deserts, black sand beaches, in addition to the old lava flows. Not all of the island is like that old parking lot - I think you said you live on the Kilauea side? It is an island with active volcanic activity, an island still growing, with rocks and huge rough areas unlike what many/most of us encounter daily. As far as rules of thumb for leaving our horses barefoot or shoeing them, I think you are in such an extreme environment that is foreign to what much of us on the mainland live with. I think it's only fair that you qualify that when you talk about barefoot horses. Aren't you fairly near the area of the black sand beaches? Just more inland? Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.6/1150 - Release Date: 11/24/2007 5:58 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 10:37:08AM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: We desperatley tried barefoot here on our pastures, but the horn wears faster than the growth, so they need shoes here, or otherwise we would use boots to ride them in rocky area, which is most of our area Skye, for those who don't realize where you live, you should probably point out that you live on The Big Island, the island of Hawaii in the state of Hawaii. Hawaii is probably some of the newest geography within the borders of the USA. as another datapoint, here in new england (geologically antiquated and inactive, glacially formed) i am currently trying barefoot with my stjarni. (mostly b/c i have so far found a very skilled barefoot trimmer and only kinda lousy shoe farriers) his back feet, after a year, are just fine. his front feet, after about four months (supplemented with a hoof-specific dietary supplement from smartpak and a topical use of keratex) still tend to chip. i'm worrying about what i am going to do when the ice sets in (we're getting frosts now, i figure on ice in the next couple weeks) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Barefoot? Shoes?
Skye, To put in our track was not very expensive at all... I put in push in posts at less then 2 bucks a post and some yellow or white wire, I put in a T post on every side of the big East inner Oval the rest are just push in posts the gravel, well, that was there before I did the track, as we have TONS OF BOOT SUCKING OFF MUD, I got tired of walking in my socks I added a couple truck loads each year, unfortunately, it is getting a lot more expensive here... hay, well we feed 700 lb bales, they get on leafs 2-3 times a day spread out when the weather permits... today was to windy to spread out... along with letting them into the ovals once a day for grass... no added cost there, cause we could not feed full time on grass anyway, they got to fat and one mare we had, a Paso Fino Foundered... this way they are all looking good, cause they MOVE a lot searching for grass or hay... and just moving, running, plalying... Here is a picture of Joe Camps Track on 1.5 acres of land... I love his rocks and hillside... http://www.nakedhorsemanship.com/horseboarding.htm Oh by the way, I have been reading his New book... I LOVE IT so far... I and my horses love our track system, take a look~~~ http://picasaweb.google.com/dakota.charm/TrackForHorses
