[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[dougP]

"Performance" is in the mind of rider.  For me, my way-over-30 lb
Atlantis (I'd weigh it but I'm too lazy to drag the scale downstairs)
performs just fine for what I'm doing.

Funny story:  did a "tour" recently (totally cush affair: lodging,
luggage transported, etc) where riders on typical MCRBs complained
about poor road surfaces, steep hills, sore hands, stiff necks, etc.
Most of the group was "of a certain age (or older)" with the
disposable income to buy whatever bike they desire.  My trusty
Atlantis with 40 mm tires dealt nicely with the conditions, and I even
bagged a few bonus hills that stumped the compact double crew.  They
teased me about my rack but were looking at my reflector disappear up
the hill.

Never forget:  The older you get, the faster you were...

dougP

On Jun 28, 8:18 am, RJM  wrote:
> Ah, performance, such a weird thing to call a bicycle, especially when any
> performance is directly attributed to the person and not the equipment.
>
> I know when I ride my bike I have a fun time and come away without needing
> to take the next couple of days off due to back, neck, wrist ache, that is
> about all the performance I can handle.
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:07:23 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:
> >  Grant writes a book to promote something to counteract a prevailing
> > mentality. The reviewer's review itself has one sentence that shows how
> > pervasive that mentality is. The reviewer generally responds positively to
> > Grant's book and offers the following as constructive criticism: mentioning
> > a couple of Grant's points with which he disagrees, the reviewer writes, "I
> > also think the notion of a 31-pound “performance” road bike (that’s how
> > much his personal bike weighs) is ridiculous."
>
> > This tells me that the reviewer has not really gotten the point. I know
> > the word "performance" is in quotes, so I'm not sure how he is defining
> > performance. But the phrase "road bike" is not in quotes. The reviewer
> > adheres to the idea that one's road ride can be only be high-performance
> > when lightness and acceleration are the highest goals. Elsewhere in the
> > article, the reviewer says that cycling should be much more. But he himself
> > can't allow the thing called "road riding" to incorporate cycling's other
> > joys. That's a bummer.
>
> > -Jim W.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steven Frederick
> > Sent: Jun 28, 2012 4:38 AM
> > To: "rbw-owners-bun."
> > Subject: [RBW] Review of "Just Ride."
>
> > From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>
> >http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
>
> > Steve
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[dougP]

"This is not a book written by a timid man."

Love it!  Overall, nice review.  The reviewer likes GP's writing and
urges his audience to read the book.  Those are two points of high
praise right there.

dougP

On Jun 28, 4:38 am, Steven Frederick  wrote:
> From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>
> http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
>
> Steve

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

Something Grant said in his talk in Portland recently... I paraphrase... If 
mid-ride you wish you were at the end of the ride, it's not a fun ride. 

I get passed all the time on my bike. Are those folks having more fun than 
me? Maybe. Are those folks enjoying more road-side berries than me? 
Definitely not.  

--Andy


On Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:38:15 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote:
>
> From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>
> http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
>
> Steve
>

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[dougP]

"I referred to it as my road bike on a recent group ride, and one of
my more category-oriented companions incredulously asked, "you call
THAT a road bike?"

Yea, to a lot of the biking world, we pose a dilemma by not fitting
neatly into a box.  More than once I've encountered MTBers on simple
jeep or hiking trails, nothing particularly technical or challenging,
and they ask "what are you doing out here on THAT?"  Heck, these are
just roads that aren't paved, not ski runs or goat tracks; the
Atlantis is perfectly happy.

We are apparently mis-understood.  I for one can live with that.

dougP

On Jun 28, 10:41 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
 wrote:
> This is why using a handful of narrowly defined marketing categories to
> describe bikes is preposterous. Among a lot of cyclists, it's either
> "mountain" or "road" (insert the word "performance" anywhere you like),
> unless it's a "hybrid" or a "cruiser" that only a nerdy old lady would
> ride. My fastest bike is a Cross-check that has drop bars and 40 mm tires
> and weighs at least 30 lbs. I referred to it as my road bike on a recent
> group ride, and one of my more category-oriented companions incredulously
> asked, "you call THAT a road bike?" I asked him what else he'd call it, but
> he was at a loss to find the appropriate pigeonhole. Country Bike is a neat
> concept, and one with which most of my bikes closely identify, but nobody
> outside the Riv Bubble knows the term.
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:07:23 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:
>
> >  Grant writes a book to promote something to counteract a prevailing
> > mentality. The reviewer's review itself has one sentence that shows how
> > pervasive that mentality is. The reviewer generally responds positively to
> > Grant's book and offers the following as constructive criticism: mentioning
> > a couple of Grant's points with which he disagrees, the reviewer writes, "I
> > also think the notion of a 31-pound “performance” road bike (that’s how
> > much his personal bike weighs) is ridiculous."
>
> > This tells me that the reviewer has not really gotten the point. I know
> > the word "performance" is in quotes, so I'm not sure how he is defining
> > performance. But the phrase "road bike" is not in quotes. The reviewer
> > adheres to the idea that one's road ride can be only be high-performance
> > when lightness and acceleration are the highest goals. Elsewhere in the
> > article, the reviewer says that cycling should be much more. But he himself
> > can't allow the thing called "road riding" to incorporate cycling's other
> > joys. That's a bummer.
>
> > -Jim W.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steven Frederick
> > Sent: Jun 28, 2012 4:38 AM
> > To: "rbw-owners-bun."
> > Subject: [RBW] Review of "Just Ride."
>
> > From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>
> >http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
>
> > Steve
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Interestingly, the guy I mentioned who expressed surprise that I'd call my 
Cross-check a road bike actually owns a Riv custom.

On Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:23:56 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> "I referred to it as my road bike on a recent group ride, and one of 
> my more category-oriented companions incredulously asked, "you call 
> THAT a road bike?" 
>
> Yea, to a lot of the biking world, we pose a dilemma by not fitting 
> neatly into a box.  More than once I've encountered MTBers on simple 
> jeep or hiking trails, nothing particularly technical or challenging, 
> and they ask "what are you doing out here on THAT?"  Heck, these are 
> just roads that aren't paved, not ski runs or goat tracks; the 
> Atlantis is perfectly happy. 
>
> We are apparently mis-understood.  I for one can live with that. 
>
> dougP 
>
> On Jun 28, 10:41 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
>  wrote: 
> > This is why using a handful of narrowly defined marketing categories to 
> > describe bikes is preposterous. Among a lot of cyclists, it's either 
> > "mountain" or "road" (insert the word "performance" anywhere you like), 
> > unless it's a "hybrid" or a "cruiser" that only a nerdy old lady would 
> > ride. My fastest bike is a Cross-check that has drop bars and 40 mm 
> tires 
> > and weighs at least 30 lbs. I referred to it as my road bike on a recent 
> > group ride, and one of my more category-oriented companions 
> incredulously 
> > asked, "you call THAT a road bike?" I asked him what else he'd call it, 
> but 
> > he was at a loss to find the appropriate pigeonhole. Country Bike is a 
> neat 
> > concept, and one with which most of my bikes closely identify, but 
> nobody 
> > outside the Riv Bubble knows the term. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:07:23 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote: 
> > 
> > >  Grant writes a book to promote something to counteract a prevailing 
> > > mentality. The reviewer's review itself has one sentence that shows 
> how 
> > > pervasive that mentality is. The reviewer generally responds 
> positively to 
> > > Grant's book and offers the following as constructive criticism: 
> mentioning 
> > > a couple of Grant's points with which he disagrees, the reviewer 
> writes, "I 
> > > also think the notion of a 31-pound “performance” road bike (that’s 
> how 
> > > much his personal bike weighs) is ridiculous." 
> > 
> > > This tells me that the reviewer has not really gotten the point. I 
> know 
> > > the word "performance" is in quotes, so I'm not sure how he is 
> defining 
> > > performance. But the phrase "road bike" is not in quotes. The reviewer 
> > > adheres to the idea that one's road ride can be only be 
> high-performance 
> > > when lightness and acceleration are the highest goals. Elsewhere in 
> the 
> > > article, the reviewer says that cycling should be much more. But he 
> himself 
> > > can't allow the thing called "road riding" to incorporate cycling's 
> other 
> > > joys. That's a bummer. 
> > 
> > > -Jim W. 
> > 
> > > -Original Message- 
> > > From: Steven Frederick 
> > > Sent: Jun 28, 2012 4:38 AM 
> > > To: "rbw-owners-bun." 
> > > Subject: [RBW] Review of "Just Ride." 
> > 
> > > From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out 
> there... 
> > 
> > >http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/ 
> > 
> > > Steve 
> > 
> > > -- 
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups 
> > > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
> > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. 
>
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> > > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 
> > > For more options, visit this group at 
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted 
> text - 
> > 
> > - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[grant]

I am generally relieved that the book hasn't been panned more and worse. An 
old friend didn't like it on Amazon, and that hurt me deeply, but I'm 
trying to get over that, and that hurt has been more than all balmed-up by 
the generally positive response here and other places. 
I'm always described as polarizing or divisive, which is a funny thing to 
read. In print, even here, I tend to not dance around  points I'm trying to 
make, and I don't qualify things with IMHO or whatever. But most of the 
book IS opinion, and I hope nobody thinks it's all-or-nothing. I DO believe 
it all, but I don't expect 100 percent compliance or agreement or anything. 
Some of my best friends ride clipless and dress in spandex and grind away 
long long miles, and they're no fools. I do fear for the ones who ride 
carbon forks, though---and maybe carbon has gotten better, but snapping is 
still common, and the nature of the failures has not changed.
Anyway...I really hope I don't offend anybody with my opinions. I think 
there has been and is an unhelpful emphasis on racer-like riding as a goal 
for us all---the idea that we suffer and get stronger and leaner in payment 
for the the suffering, and that we have so much to learn from racers. I 
really do think all that is bs. But anywaythere's no Kool-Aid to drink 
here. Just stuff to consider, whatever, and reject whenever rejection seems 
the way to go. Over and out on that, but thank you all for however much 
you've liked the book.

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[RJM]

I bought the book at the Nashville book signing, sat for your talk, 
listened to the questions and answers and waited in line to get it signed 
and meet you. I have finished the book since then and have to say I very 
much enjoyed it; I enjoyed it enough to tell my wife that she needs to read 
it and that right there means something. That just doesn't always happen. I 
can't say I agree with everything, but I certainly agree with about 65% of 
what you wrote, probably more. I really wish I didn't have an allergy to 
wool.
 
I am glad you wrote it and I am glad I had the opportunity to read it; the 
book made me happy, it was a fun read and had solid points throughout. So, 
thank you for that. 
 
- Ryan
 

> I am generally relieved that the book hasn't been panned more and worse. 
> An old friend didn't like it on Amazon, and that hurt me deeply, but I'm 
> trying to get over that, and that hurt has been more than all balmed-up by 
> the generally positive response here and other places. 
> I'm always described as polarizing or divisive, which is a funny thing to 
> read. In print, even here, I tend to not dance around  points I'm trying to 
> make, and I don't qualify things with IMHO or whatever. But most of the 
> book IS opinion, and I hope nobody thinks it's all-or-nothing. I DO believe 
> it all, but I don't expect 100 percent compliance or agreement or anything. 
> Some of my best friends ride clipless and dress in spandex and grind away 
> long long miles, and they're no fools. I do fear for the ones who ride 
> carbon forks, though---and maybe carbon has gotten better, but snapping is 
> still common, and the nature of the failures has not changed.
> Anyway...I really hope I don't offend anybody with my opinions. I 
> think there has been and is an unhelpful emphasis on racer-like riding as a 
> goal for us all---the idea that we suffer and get stronger and leaner in 
> payment for the the suffering, and that we have so much to learn from 
> racers. I really do think all that is bs. But anywaythere's no Kool-Aid 
> to drink here. Just stuff to consider, whatever, and reject whenever 
> rejection seems the way to go. Over and out on that, but thank you all for 
> however much you've liked the book.
>

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[charlie]

Thanks Grant for signing my copy in Portland and the one for my pal Craig 
(49'ners) He is reading it and learning and hopefully will be getting his 
new knees soon and will be on his bicycle again. I've been following your 
writing over the years and so wasn't too surprised when I read the book. 
You certainly have done something good with your book and I believe more 
will start realizing your points are true and we'll continue to see changes 
in the general mindset of many bicyclists.old and new ones.

On Friday, June 29, 2012 8:01:11 PM UTC-7, grant wrote:
>
> I am generally relieved that the book hasn't been panned more and worse. 
> An old friend didn't like it on Amazon, and that hurt me deeply, but I'm 
> trying to get over that, and that hurt has been more than all balmed-up by 
> the generally positive response here and other places. 
> I'm always described as polarizing or divisive, which is a funny thing to 
> read. In print, even here, I tend to not dance around  points I'm trying to 
> make, and I don't qualify things with IMHO or whatever. But most of the 
> book IS opinion, and I hope nobody thinks it's all-or-nothing. I DO believe 
> it all, but I don't expect 100 percent compliance or agreement or anything. 
> Some of my best friends ride clipless and dress in spandex and grind away 
> long long miles, and they're no fools. I do fear for the ones who ride 
> carbon forks, though---and maybe carbon has gotten better, but snapping is 
> still common, and the nature of the failures has not changed.
> Anyway...I really hope I don't offend anybody with my opinions. I 
> think there has been and is an unhelpful emphasis on racer-like riding as a 
> goal for us all---the idea that we suffer and get stronger and leaner in 
> payment for the the suffering, and that we have so much to learn from 
> racers. I really do think all that is bs. But anywaythere's no Kool-Aid 
> to drink here. Just stuff to consider, whatever, and reject whenever 
> rejection seems the way to go. Over and out on that, but thank you all for 
> however much you've liked the book.
>

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Zack]

I just happened to be re-reading JR today, and noticed the piece that 
people have mentioned here, where the author of the review scoffs at 
Grant's "performance" bike that weighs 31 pounds.

The weird thing is, that is not at all what Grant says.  He says that's how 
much his bike weighs with two racks, fenders, bags, and that "it's no 
clunker."  

Kind of a stretch to say that is Grant calling it a performance bike.

Also, i would again suggest that anyone that reads and loves the book write 
a quick review on Amazon.  Goes for any book you like.  Those ratings are 
important and help with sales, and it's like voting for that type of 
content that you like in the future.  Just takes a sec.  

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[charlie]

Was just thinking about the whole concept of the 'performance bicycle' and 
it really makes me laugh since the rider is the most important part of that 
equation. The point I'm trying to make is its all about the engine probably 
95% of it. There is simply no way a top level pro riding a 30+ touring 
bicycle is going to get beat by your average guy on a high tech uber 
lightweight road machine. It just doesn't make that much difference until 
you level the playing field with both the rider and the machine (then its 
all rider) plus support crew these days not to mention how much cheating 
you do or don't do to win. Lightweight bicycles are nifty and fun and the 
'Rando style' (Hilsen, Hillborne,Roadeo) mid weight is probably your best 
all around swift road machine. I still don't get the point of a 16 pound 
bicycle and why many think them to be significantly 'faster'.. without 
a rider pedaling them they just sit there leaning against a wall going 
nowhere fast.

On Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:38:15 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote:
>
> From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>
> http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
>
> Steve
>

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Pesce]

I thought the same thing. Nowhere in JR does Grant say "performance road bikes" 
should be heavy. He says that most people should not care about riding 
performed roads bikes nor care that much about weight.. In that statement, the 
reviewer is actually providing the perfect example of what Grant is on about in 
the book. Why can there be only one way of thinking about cycling?
That said, I do think it's fine if people want to geek out on bike tech. If 
they have the money and really enjoy the tech part of it fine. Patrick starts 
another thread about the cost of the new camy electric group. I too think its a 
bit much, but mocking someone for liking that makes us no better than those who 
mock us for liking wool. It's a big tent. Plenty of room inside. But to the 
point of Just Ride, too many people get sold the idea that its NOT a big tent, 
and your only options are carbon roadie or MTB. That's not right either. 
As for the matter of the motor, that phenomenon exists everywhere in some form. 
The golfer who cant break 100 despite his $300 putter, the fisherman who can't 
catch a thing on his $1000 fly rod. The morgue is full of kids who thought 
their race replica motorcycle would make them Valentino Rossi, and YouTube is 
full of Ferraris and Lambos being driven by morons. 
A bike or a Bentley will both get you to work.  
OK, rant off.  

Pete in CT

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Kelly]

Well same engine and my experience .. AHH vs Giant Tcr advanced.  .. Riding 
position about 2mph difference in cruising speed... Wheels and tires and 
generator hub another mph or even 2 ... So instead of cruising along at 25mph 
it's around 20 21.   There is a cost for that comfort.   I can't quantify  
aceleration other than to say in a sprint no comparison...combination weight 
wheels shifters everything.   

It's not apples to apples and if you are trying to hang on to fast group rides 
where your engine is barely enough to hang on every mile per hour is huge.   I 
don't want my carbon race bike back.. I do know that bikes/components make a 
big difference when it comes to speed as much as it does with comfort.  

Now at that 15 to 18 mph on flats casual ride there is no difference to me.   
Guess that's why i love my riv's ... I'm riding more for fun and less for speed.

Kelly

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Pesce]

If "fast group rides" are part of your regular riding portfolio then I'd 
absolutley agree that a bike made for fast group rides should be part of your 
stable. And I think it's masochistic to believe that an Atlantis could be that 
bike. Ride what everyone else is riding.  Group road rides are about nothing if 
not conformity to the group, whatever that may be. 
But if your weekend rides are solo rambles, the idea that a Specialized Roubaix 
is the "best" alternative to a Madone is insane.

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Brevivelo]

Hey Grant, bring the cool aid Riv flavour down under. Will buy the book and 
share it with my mates. Perhaps a 50th birthday gift. Re above though, I must 
agree, group rides, work better for me on similar equipment. Though I think you 
can put your own slant on it. A classic road sport bike , or the lines of a 
Roadeo, or Ramb , or Romulus with lightish wheels and tires, would be fast 
enough and close enough in weight to not matter, if there's issues about real 
road bike. Ride with another group. 

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Garth]

I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame *with 
the exact same dimensions*, *in both steel and CF* for about the same price 
 which would you choose ? 

For myself, I simply do not have the option of riding a CF frame as the 
size and dimensions I prefer do not exist in CF .  BUT  if I had a 
choice of the same frame in either or  I might have a hard time 
deciding ... lol .  Imagine a 3 or 4 lb. frame/fork vs. a 8-10 that a 
Bombadil or Hunq. weigh .. it would certainly make me think about it .

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Pesce]

Steel for me. I chuckle every time I read an ad or review about some carbon 
bike that has "achieved" a comfortable ride.
I love the way steel bikes look, and feel. I even love the little "ping" 
they make when something taps a tube.

If I had all the money in the world to spend on one bike it would be steel.

On Monday, July 2, 2012 3:59:15 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
>
> I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame *with 
> the exact same dimensions*, *in both steel and CF* for about the same 
> price  which would you choose ? 
>
> For myself, I simply do not have the option of riding a CF frame as the 
> size and dimensions I prefer do not exist in CF .  BUT  if I had a 
> choice of the same frame in either or  I might have a hard time 
> deciding ... lol .  Imagine a 3 or 4 lb. frame/fork vs. a 8-10 that a 
> Bombadil or Hunq. weigh .. it would certainly make me think about it .
>

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[RJM]

I have ridden enough CF bikes to know that I prefer steel bikes. With the 
size bike I need, I can get a steel bike to under 20 lbs pretty easily and 
that isn't even going completely weight weenie. Getting a bike down to 15 
lbs won't make me like biking anymore than I already do, it won't make the 
ride any more enjoyable, and it won't suddenly make me want to be lance 
armstrong and use every ride as a race. That kind of weight difference just 
doesn't matter to me at all. What does matter is that the bike looks nice, 
will last for years, and I don't have to worry about dropping it.
 
Is anybody making a carbon fiber touring bike yet?

On Monday, July 2, 2012 2:59:15 PM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

>
> I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame *with 
> the exact same dimensions*, *in both steel and CF* for about the same 
> price  which would you choose ? 
>
> For myself, I simply do not have the option of riding a CF frame as the 
> size and dimensions I prefer do not exist in CF .  BUT  if I had a 
> choice of the same frame in either or  I might have a hard time 
> deciding ... lol .  Imagine a 3 or 4 lb. frame/fork vs. a 8-10 that a 
> Bombadil or Hunq. weigh .. it would certainly make me think about it .
>

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Beth H]

I read it and liked most of it. I think Grant goes to some places I 
wouldn't, especially in the areas of food and helmets.
But I found it mostly informative and entertaining.

Reading it, I was reminded of how blessed I am to live in a city where 
living car-free and relying on a bicycle for primary transportation is 
actually possible -- and how far behind Portland so many cities remain in 
developing human-scale infrstraucture.

I've tried nearly everything -- from Randonneuring to racing -- and these 
days I find I am mostly content to ride my bike for transportation and 
pleasure at slower speeds. Much of what's in the book applies to folks who 
want to Just Ride. In the landscape of too many books and magazines 
exhorting us to pour ourselves into lycra, strap on the heart-rate monitors 
and emulate elite racers at every opportunity (so that bike shops can sell 
more carbon-fiber racing bikes and recoup their investments on all that R & 
D -- sorry, that's my bike industry cynicism at work), *Just Ride* is a 
breath of fresh air.

Beth in PDX

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Mojo]

>From Bicycle Times
 
http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/book-review-just-ride-grant-petersen

 

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[hobie]

Havn't read the book yet. Though I really appreciate what Rivendell is 
about. All of us on this list are big fans correct? Mark at Riv rides fast 
lightweight Rivs for racing as does Kris Kostman,don't know if he races 
anymore but he rides a Rodeo. I have defintly noticed a difference in my 
overall performance by shaving some weight off of my bike, Saluki 650b, 
plus me actually riding more. I raced in the early 90's on a carbon fiber 
Kestral and it was a very fast bike but not very versatile. Versatility was 
not my concern then,attitude was! Fastest bike I ever owned and raced was a 
Yamaguchi track bike made of steel.  Most people don't race,lets face 
it. Would they be more comfortable on a Riv? The answer is yes. The Bleriot 
was an attempt to get people back on lugged. I think Grant was just a bit 
early on that one. It might have caught on now though. RIDE ON FELLOW 
RIVS 
On Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:38:15 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote: 
>
> From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>
> http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ri

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Joe Bernard]

I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
stupid. 

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[William]

I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in particular.  I 
appreciate it because of my perception of the motive.  In my opinion, those 
who rail hard against carbon forks believe strongly that if 100% of carbon 
forks were replaced today by steel forks, that the number of skulls that 
hit the pavement will drop.  Wanting fewer skulls on the pavement is a 
noble motive.  Grant has taken that to the American conclusion of 
commitment, putting his money where his mouth is, and losing money on 
selling steel forks to those that will take their carbon forks out of 
circulation forever.  

When I hear somebody like Joe or Grant say "carbon forks are stupid", I 
take it the same way as I do when my wife says "riding a motorcycle on 880 
is stupid".  She's making a blunt statement borne from the feeling that 
there's a good person that will be injured (or worse), and she just wishes 
that person would be content *not* riding that motorcycle on 880.  

On Friday, July 13, 2012 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
> stupid. 

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:03:39 AM UTC-7, William wrote:
>
> I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in particular.  I 
> appreciate it because of my perception of the motive.  In my opinion, those 
> who rail hard against carbon forks believe strongly that if 100% of carbon 
> forks were replaced today by steel forks, that the number of skulls that 
> hit the pavement will drop.  Wanting fewer skulls on the pavement is a 
> noble motive.  


Oh boy, the paranoid are out today!  Its interesting that with the Internet 
and *World Wide Web,* we really don't hear that much about all the "number 
of skulls that hit the pavement." As Andy Muzi of Yellow Jersey.org and as 
a bike owner not only sells, but sees tons of CF forks, stated:

"I was among the wailing fork Cassandras ten+ years ago but 
you'll have to admit that 'failed cheap carbon fork' doesn't 
happen with statistically significant frequency nowadays. By 
that I mean you, as a service tech, may or may not have seen 
one. One! And surely not a few every week. The first 
high-volume runs of them are now well beyond warranty and 
we'll assume the usual clumsy abusive riders own these as 
own everything else."

Bottom line - there are tens of thousand, no strike that, hundred of 
thousands or more CF forks on the road. Guess what, very few reported 
problemsHowever, if you're paranoid about CF, then stay away; far far 
away!  

Grant has taken that to the American conclusion of commitment, putting his 
> money where his mouth is, and losing money on selling steel forks to those 
> that will take their carbon forks out of circulation forever.  


Really, Grant is losing money selling his steel forks:
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/carbonomas.htm

At $200, I seriously doubt Grant/Riv is losing any money?!  In fact, his 
fork sure looks alot like the Surly Steamroller fork here:
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6990 


When somebody like Joe or Grant say "carbon forks are stupid", I take it 
> the same way as I do when my wife says "riding a motorcycle on 880 is 
> stupid".  She's making a blunt statement borne from the feeling that 
> there's a good person that will be injured (or worse), and she just wishes 
> that person would be content *not* riding that motorcycle on 880.  
>

Yes, something we agree on: stay off of 880, whether you're on a bike, 
motorcycle or car! Good luck!

>
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
>> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
>> stupid. 
>
>
On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:03:39 AM UTC-7, William wrote:
>
> I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in particular.  I 
> appreciate it because of my perception of the motive.  In my opinion, those 
> who rail hard against carbon forks believe strongly that if 100% of carbon 
> forks were replaced today by steel forks, that the number of skulls that 
> hit the pavement will drop.  Wanting fewer skulls on the pavement is a 
> noble motive.  Grant has taken that to the American conclusion of 
> commitment, putting his money where his mouth is, and losing money on 
> selling steel forks to those that will take their carbon forks out of 
> circulation forever.  
>
> When I hear somebody like Joe or Grant say "carbon forks are stupid", I 
> take it the same way as I do when my wife says "riding a motorcycle on 880 
> is stupid".  She's making a blunt statement borne from the feeling that 
> there's a good person that will be injured (or worse), and she just wishes 
> that person would be content *not* riding that motorcycle on 880.  
>
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
>> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
>> stupid. 
>
>
On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:03:39 AM UTC-7, William wrote:
>
> I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in particular.  I 
> appreciate it because of my perception of the motive.  In my opinion, those 
> who rail hard against carbon forks believe strongly that if 100% of carbon 
> forks were replaced today by steel forks, that the number of skulls that 
> hit the pavement will drop.  Wanting fewer skulls on the pavement is a 
> noble motive.  Grant has taken that to the American conclusion of 
> commitment, putting his money where his mouth is, and losing money on 
> selling steel forks to those that will take their carbon forks out of 
> circulation forever.  
>
> When I hear somebody like Joe or Grant say "carbon forks are stupid", I 
> take it the same way as I do when my wife says "riding a motorcycle on 880 
> is stupid".  She's making a blunt statement borne from the feeling that 
> there's a good person that will be injured (or worse), and she just wishes 
> that person would be content *not* 

[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[William]

Brewster Fong

Seriously?  I didn't say I'm afraid of Carbon Forks.  I didn't say anything 
bad about carbon.  Did you even read what I posted?  I said that when 
people gripe against carbon, I take it as concern for the well being of 
cyclists.  

I've ridden a carbon frame and a few carbon forks, and have never had a 
problem.  I'm explaining how I don't take it personal when somebody talks 
bad about carbon.  Apparently you do take it personal, because you insult 
me as a paranoiac for something that I did not write.  

Regarding the finances of designing and developing three models of custom 
forks all made in low volume, I am merely guessing that Rivendell has not 
recouped its investment.  

Good Luck!

On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:51:54 AM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:03:39 AM UTC-7, William wrote:
>>
>> I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in particular.  I 
>> appreciate it because of my perception of the motive.  In my opinion, those 
>> who rail hard against carbon forks believe strongly that if 100% of carbon 
>> forks were replaced today by steel forks, that the number of skulls that 
>> hit the pavement will drop.  Wanting fewer skulls on the pavement is a 
>> noble motive.  
>
>
> Oh boy, the paranoid are out today!  Its interesting that with the 
> Internet and *World Wide Web,* we really don't hear that much about all the 
> "number of skulls that hit the pavement." As Andy Muzi of Yellow Jersey.org 
> and as a bike owner not only sells, but sees tons of CF forks, stated:
>
> "I was among the wailing fork Cassandras ten+ years ago but 
> you'll have to admit that 'failed cheap carbon fork' doesn't 
> happen with statistically significant frequency nowadays. By 
> that I mean you, as a service tech, may or may not have seen 
> one. One! And surely not a few every week. The first 
> high-volume runs of them are now well beyond warranty and 
> we'll assume the usual clumsy abusive riders own these as 
> own everything else."
>
> Bottom line - there are tens of thousand, no strike that, hundred of 
> thousands or more CF forks on the road. Guess what, very few reported 
> problemsHowever, if you're paranoid about CF, then stay away; far far 
> away!  
>
> Grant has taken that to the American conclusion of commitment, putting his 
>> money where his mouth is, and losing money on selling steel forks to those 
>> that will take their carbon forks out of circulation forever.  
>
>
> Really, Grant is losing money selling his steel forks:
>  http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/carbonomas.htm
>
> At $200, I seriously doubt Grant/Riv is losing any money?!  In fact, his 
> fork sure looks alot like the Surly Steamroller fork here:
> http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6990 
>
>
> When somebody like Joe or Grant say "carbon forks are stupid", I take it 
>> the same way as I do when my wife says "riding a motorcycle on 880 is 
>> stupid".  She's making a blunt statement borne from the feeling that 
>> there's a good person that will be injured (or worse), and she just wishes 
>> that person would be content *not* riding that motorcycle on 880.  
>>
>
> Yes, something we agree on: stay off of 880, whether you're on a bike, 
> motorcycle or car! Good luck!
>
>>
>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
>>> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
>>> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
>>> stupid. 
>>
>>
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:03:39 AM UTC-7, William wrote:
>>
>> I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in particular.  I 
>> appreciate it because of my perception of the motive.  In my opinion, those 
>> who rail hard against carbon forks believe strongly that if 100% of carbon 
>> forks were replaced today by steel forks, that the number of skulls that 
>> hit the pavement will drop.  Wanting fewer skulls on the pavement is a 
>> noble motive.  Grant has taken that to the American conclusion of 
>> commitment, putting his money where his mouth is, and losing money on 
>> selling steel forks to those that will take their carbon forks out of 
>> circulation forever.  
>>
>> When I hear somebody like Joe or Grant say "carbon forks are stupid", I 
>> take it the same way as I do when my wife says "riding a motorcycle on 880 
>> is stupid".  She's making a blunt statement borne from the feeling that 
>> there's a good person that will be injured (or worse), and she just wishes 
>> that person would be content *not* riding that motorcycle on 880.  
>>
>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
>>> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
>>> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
>>> stupid. 
>>
>>
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:03:39 AM UTC-7, William wrote:
>>
>> I appreciate Joe and Grant's passion about carbon forks in part

[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Mike]

Well put Erik. Are you going to grace us with a report about your
tour? Pictures? I see there are some on your blog, I hope you post
more.

Bummed we couldn't have met up when you were in my neck of the woods.
>From looking at your blog it looks like you made it into Gifford
Pinchot NF. Lots of great roads there, paved and dirt. I've done a
couple of rides through there but still feel like there's way more to
explore. Hopefully next summer.

I'm in the process or rereading Just Ride and enjoying it all over
again. Perfect reading before bed. Due to a new puppy, no long rides
but some really nice Rivish rambles through Forest Park here in
Portland. I've been watching our new puppy on my day's off while my
wife has been out of town. She returns next week so I'm looking
forward to some longer rides--Larch Mtn, Lolo Pass (Mt Hood National
Forest), Eagle Fern Park/Community of George. I'm tentatively planning
on doing these longish rides (80 to 100 miles) at a casual pace, no
stretchy bike clothes, and platform pedals. I don't drive and the bus
doesn't go to any of these places so the only way I'm gonna see them
is if I throw a leg over my bike and make a day of it.

--Mike

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[RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Joe Bernard]

I agree..we should get back on topic. Just Ride is great, Rivendells are 
great, I love everbody.
 
Joe "carbon forks are stupid" Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:10:45 AM UTC-7, Mike wrote:

> Well put Erik. Are you going to grace us with a report about your 
> tour? Pictures? I see there are some on your blog, I hope you post 
> more. 
>
> Bummed we couldn't have met up when you were in my neck of the woods. 
> From looking at your blog it looks like you made it into Gifford 
> Pinchot NF. Lots of great roads there, paved and dirt. I've done a 
> couple of rides through there but still feel like there's way more to 
> explore. Hopefully next summer. 
>
> I'm in the process or rereading Just Ride and enjoying it all over 
> again. Perfect reading before bed. Due to a new puppy, no long rides 
> but some really nice Rivish rambles through Forest Park here in 
> Portland. I've been watching our new puppy on my day's off while my 
> wife has been out of town. She returns next week so I'm looking 
> forward to some longer rides--Larch Mtn, Lolo Pass (Mt Hood National 
> Forest), Eagle Fern Park/Community of George. I'm tentatively planning 
> on doing these longish rides (80 to 100 miles) at a casual pace, no 
> stretchy bike clothes, and platform pedals. I don't drive and the bus 
> doesn't go to any of these places so the only way I'm gonna see them 
> is if I throw a leg over my bike and make a day of it. 
>
> --Mike

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[James Warren]

Right. This illustrates my point. The reviewer of the article seems to 
visualize cycling as this great multi-faceted thing, but the subset of it 
called "road-riding" is not allowed to have a 31-pound bike. That's where I 
disagree. Doug's fully satisfying ride (described below) should be called a 
"road ride."

The reviewer doesn't say, "for me, road-riding performance means lighter 
weight..." He says, "the notion of a 31-pound 'performance' road bike is 
ridiculous." Given his position as reviewer, that assertion is presumptuous, 
trying to tell me, the reader, what road bike performance really means. He even 
says that it is worthy of ridicule to attempt to define road-riding differently 
with an over-30-pound bike. I'm guessing that this presumption and the 
commonality of it is at least part of what lead to "Just Ride."

-Jim W.


-Original Message-----
>From: dougP 
>Sent: Jun 28, 2012 9:04 AM
>To: RBW Owners Bunch 
>Subject: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."
>
>"Performance" is in the mind of rider.  For me, my way-over-30 lb
>Atlantis (I'd weigh it but I'm too lazy to drag the scale downstairs)
>performs just fine for what I'm doing.
>
>Funny story:  did a "tour" recently (totally cush affair: lodging,
>luggage transported, etc) where riders on typical MCRBs complained
>about poor road surfaces, steep hills, sore hands, stiff necks, etc.
>Most of the group was "of a certain age (or older)" with the
>disposable income to buy whatever bike they desire.  My trusty
>Atlantis with 40 mm tires dealt nicely with the conditions, and I even
>bagged a few bonus hills that stumped the compact double crew.  They
>teased me about my rack but were looking at my reflector disappear up
>the hill.
>
>Never forget:  The older you get, the faster you were...
>
>dougP
>
>On Jun 28, 8:18 am, RJM  wrote:
>> Ah, performance, such a weird thing to call a bicycle, especially when any
>> performance is directly attributed to the person and not the equipment.
>>
>> I know when I ride my bike I have a fun time and come away without needing
>> to take the next couple of days off due to back, neck, wrist ache, that is
>> about all the performance I can handle.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:07:23 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:
>> >  Grant writes a book to promote something to counteract a prevailing
>> > mentality. The reviewer's review itself has one sentence that shows how
>> > pervasive that mentality is. The reviewer generally responds positively to
>> > Grant's book and offers the following as constructive criticism: mentioning
>> > a couple of Grant's points with which he disagrees, the reviewer writes, "I
>> > also think the notion of a 31-pound “performance” road bike (that’s how
>> > much his personal bike weighs) is ridiculous."
>>
>> > This tells me that the reviewer has not really gotten the point. I know
>> > the word "performance" is in quotes, so I'm not sure how he is defining
>> > performance. But the phrase "road bike" is not in quotes. The reviewer
>> > adheres to the idea that one's road ride can be only be high-performance
>> > when lightness and acceleration are the highest goals. Elsewhere in the
>> > article, the reviewer says that cycling should be much more. But he himself
>> > can't allow the thing called "road riding" to incorporate cycling's other
>> > joys. That's a bummer.
>>
>> > -Jim W.
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Steven Frederick
>> > Sent: Jun 28, 2012 4:38 AM
>> > To: "rbw-owners-bun."
>> > Subject: [RBW] Review of "Just Ride."
>>
>> > From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out there...
>>
>> >http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
>>
>> > Steve
>>
>> > --
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>>
>> - Show quoted text -
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[RJM]

I agree with you and it is an attitude that becomes very apparent when you 
show up to a group road ride on a steel framed/racked and bagged/fat tired 
bike.  "You think you are riding with us on that??"
 

On Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:33:26 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:

>
> Right. This illustrates my point. The reviewer of the article seems to 
> visualize cycling as this great multi-faceted thing, but the subset of it 
> called "road-riding" is not allowed to have a 31-pound bike. That's where I 
> disagree. Doug's fully satisfying ride (described below) should be called a 
> "road ride." 
>
> The reviewer doesn't say, "for me, road-riding performance means lighter 
> weight..." He says, "the notion of a 31-pound 'performance' road bike is 
> ridiculous." Given his position as reviewer, that assertion is 
> presumptuous, trying to tell me, the reader, what road bike performance 
> really means. He even says that it is worthy of ridicule to attempt to 
> define road-riding differently with an over-30-pound bike. I'm guessing 
> that this presumption and the commonality of it is at least part of what 
> lead to "Just Ride." 
>
> -Jim W. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[clyde canter]

"Never forget:  The older you get, the faster you were.."

AND..You're older now than you've ever been.
.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, dougP  wrote:

> "Performance" is in the mind of rider.  For me, my way-over-30 lb
> Atlantis (I'd weigh it but I'm too lazy to drag the scale downstairs)
> performs just fine for what I'm doing.
>
> Funny story:  did a "tour" recently (totally cush affair: lodging,
> luggage transported, etc) where riders on typical MCRBs complained
> about poor road surfaces, steep hills, sore hands, stiff necks, etc.
> Most of the group was "of a certain age (or older)" with the
> disposable income to buy whatever bike they desire.  My trusty
> Atlantis with 40 mm tires dealt nicely with the conditions, and I even
> bagged a few bonus hills that stumped the compact double crew.  They
> teased me about my rack but were looking at my reflector disappear up
> the hill.
>
> Never forget:  The older you get, the faster you were...
>
> dougP
>
> On Jun 28, 8:18 am, RJM  wrote:
> > Ah, performance, such a weird thing to call a bicycle, especially when
> any
> > performance is directly attributed to the person and not the equipment.
> >
> > I know when I ride my bike I have a fun time and come away without
> needing
> > to take the next couple of days off due to back, neck, wrist ache, that
> is
> > about all the performance I can handle.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:07:23 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:
> > >  Grant writes a book to promote something to counteract a prevailing
> > > mentality. The reviewer's review itself has one sentence that shows how
> > > pervasive that mentality is. The reviewer generally responds
> positively to
> > > Grant's book and offers the following as constructive criticism:
> mentioning
> > > a couple of Grant's points with which he disagrees, the reviewer
> writes, "I
> > > also think the notion of a 31-pound “performance” road bike (that’s how
> > > much his personal bike weighs) is ridiculous."
> >
> > > This tells me that the reviewer has not really gotten the point. I know
> > > the word "performance" is in quotes, so I'm not sure how he is defining
> > > performance. But the phrase "road bike" is not in quotes. The reviewer
> > > adheres to the idea that one's road ride can be only be
> high-performance
> > > when lightness and acceleration are the highest goals. Elsewhere in the
> > > article, the reviewer says that cycling should be much more. But he
> himself
> > > can't allow the thing called "road riding" to incorporate cycling's
> other
> > > joys. That's a bummer.
> >
> > > -Jim W.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Steven Frederick
> > > Sent: Jun 28, 2012 4:38 AM
> > > To: "rbw-owners-bun."
> > > Subject: [RBW] Review of "Just Ride."
> >
> > > From none other than BIKE magazine, one of the best mtb mags. out
> there...
> >
> > >http://www.bikemag.com/news/reviewed-just-ride/
> >
> > > Steve
> >
> > > --
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> text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Kenneth Stagg]

I don't think I've ever had that response, but last weekend supplied a
pair of interesting comments on the Mariposa.

I did a century out of Newburg, WI and on the first leg a much
stronger rider on a rather pretty piece of plastic commented on how
nice my bike looked as he went by me.  I caught up with him at a rest
stop and got a chance to look at his bike a bit more - the N logo was
very discrete and I'm still trying to remember what brand he said it
was (I don't think it was spelled out anywhere on the bike.)

At a later stop an older guy who had been chasing me for a while
commented that I was getting along pretty good on that old bike.  He
was riding what looked to be an early 90's Trek - probably close to
ten years older than my bike :)

Fun ride and I never noticed the weight of my bike (unlike the weight
of my person.)  Mostly the stronger riders on organized rides seem to
like the look of my bike even if they think of it as a bit of an
anachronism.

-Ken

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:43 AM, RJM  wrote:
> I agree with you and it is an attitude that becomes very apparent when you
> show up to a group road ride on a steel framed/racked and bagged/fat tired
> bike.  "You think you are riding with us on that??"
>
>
> On Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:33:26 AM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:
>>
>>
>> Right. This illustrates my point. The reviewer of the article seems to
>> visualize cycling as this great multi-faceted thing, but the subset of it
>> called "road-riding" is not allowed to have a 31-pound bike. That's where I
>> disagree. Doug's fully satisfying ride (described below) should be called a
>> "road ride."
>>
>> The reviewer doesn't say, "for me, road-riding performance means lighter
>> weight..." He says, "the notion of a 31-pound 'performance' road bike is
>> ridiculous." Given his position as reviewer, that assertion is presumptuous,
>> trying to tell me, the reader, what road bike performance really means. He
>> even says that it is worthy of ridicule to attempt to define road-riding
>> differently with an over-30-pound bike. I'm guessing that this presumption
>> and the commonality of it is at least part of what lead to "Just Ride."
>>
>> -Jim W.
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[René Sterental]

IMO, one of the hardest things to do is acknowledge that you've fallen prey
to the marketing claims floating around so pervasively and realize you've
been spending your money on the wrong items. Or just that your frame of
reference has been built on invalid premises. Especially when you are
confronted head-on by someone saying so...

You somehow need to get to ride one of these "alternative" machines to
discover wordlessly how wrong you've been...

In this case, riding is believing... :-)

Then again, as we use to say in Venezuela, (loosely translated from
Spanish) "Likes and colors know no authors".

René

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Funny, just had a discussion with a roadie friend here at work who insisted
he could not get a Rodeo over a CAAD 10 because he would feel the extra
2-3lbs going up a hill.  I have argued with him for years about this stuff
but he has drank the kool aid on the need for lightweight, CF components to
improve his "performance."  He does do some amatuer races so I tried to
convince him to get a SH then to be comfortable the rest of the time but my
words are lost, unfortunately.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 1:33 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> IMO, one of the hardest things to do is acknowledge that you've fallen
> prey to the marketing claims floating around so pervasively and realize
> you've been spending your money on the wrong items. Or just that your frame
> of reference has been built on invalid premises. Especially when you are
> confronted head-on by someone saying so...
>
> You somehow need to get to ride one of these "alternative" machines to
> discover wordlessly how wrong you've been...
>
> In this case, riding is believing... :-)
>
> Then again, as we use to say in Venezuela, (loosely translated from
> Spanish) "Likes and colors know no authors".
>
> René
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Believe me, an old, tired, discouraged rider climbing a steepish,
longish hill on an 18 lb bike with light wheels is going to feel that
things are very different compared to when said old, tired,
discouraged rider grinds up the same hill (in the heat, against the
wind) on a 37 lb bike with wheels made from 800 gram rims and 800 gram
tires!

Hell, even Jan Heine looks for ways to save weight.

Patrick "it's not (all) about the rider" Moore who would love a 16 lb
fixie gofast. (Only 2 lb away !!)

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 1:48 PM, charlie  wrote:
> I still don't get the point of a 16 pound bicycle and why many think them to 
> be
> significantly 'faster'.. without a rider pedaling them they just sit 
> there leaning  > against a wall going nowhere fast.



-- 
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Flannery O'Connor

-
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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[charlie]

I hear ya Patrick and don't disagree to a point although the reality is 
that on a steep hill an old, discouraged rider is going to shift down a cog 
or two on his 23-28 pound Rando style bike because he has a triple up front 
and sensibly light wheels and tires for his weight and smoothly pedal right 
up. Gearing trumps weight any dayIMHO.  I'm talking about a much 
narrower range and comparing low 20's to low 30 pound bicycles which is 
where most comparisons are common. I'm also assuming the same position on 
the bike and I think a newer lightweight carbon or aluminum race bike is 
about 21+ pounds loaded up with water etc. and a similar Rivendell might 
weigh around 26+ pounds. I just don't think six pounds is a make it or 
break it deal on a casual club ride. For actual racing where milliseconds 
count you could certainly argue the weight issue.
As for hanging onto a fast group that won't wait for meI'd rather ride 
alone or with folks who will slow the pace than change my ride to one that 
is less durable or comfortable.or maybe just get an electric motor and 
smoke them all but then I guess that's using high tech in the other 
direction to gain an advantage. ; )


On Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:06:05 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Believe me, an old, tired, discouraged rider climbing a steepish, 
> longish hill on an 18 lb bike with light wheels is going to feel that 
> things are very different compared to when said old, tired, 
> discouraged rider grinds up the same hill (in the heat, against the 
> wind) on a 37 lb bike with wheels made from 800 gram rims and 800 gram 
> tires!
>
> Hell, even Jan Heine looks for ways to save weight. 
>
> Patrick "it's not (all) about the rider" Moore who would love a 16 lb 
> fixie gofast. (Only 2 lb away !!) 
>
> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 1:48 PM, charlie wrote: 
> > I still don't get the point of a 16 pound bicycle and why many think 
> them to be 
> > significantly 'faster'.. without a rider pedaling them they just sit 
> there leaning  > against a wall going nowhere fast. 
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you." 
>
> Flannery O'Connor 
>
> - 
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA 
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW 
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html 
> - 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 12:59 -0700, Garth wrote:
> 
> I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame
> with the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the
> same price  which would you choose ?

Steel, without question.  I have no interest whatever in carbon fiber.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Having owned both I would never go back to CF, sold my look KG96 a while
ago to someone who really really wanted it and was glad to see it go.

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 12:59 -0700, Garth wrote:
> >
> > I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame
> > with the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the
> > same price  which would you choose ?
>
> Steel, without question.  I have no interest whatever in carbon fiber.
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Garth: So, you are in the relatively small camp who are willing to
consider that five or six lbs removed might make a bike more pleasant.
Me, too, but I think I'd opt (given money, time, etc etc) for titanium
rather than CF simply because ti's durability is a given while at
least many question the durability of CF. If I knew for certain that
CF could last a lifetime of normal wear and tear, I'd certainly be
open to it. I know nothing about it except that some claim it can be
very strong, others that if feels rather dead. But it would be
interesting to see monocoque CF used for integrating what are usually
bolt on pieces -- fenders, storage, lighting, wiring, racks.

(The good news is that y'all's Bombas or Hunqas are probably lighter
than my Fargo. Now a Ti Fargo would be nice -- I know, they have one,
but I can't afford it and it would be foolish for me, even if I could,
to drop the $ just to save what, a couple of lbs?)

Steve: why do you have no interest at all in CF?

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Garth  wrote:
>
> I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame with
> the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the same price
>  which would you choose ?
>
> For myself, I simply do not have the option of riding a CF frame as the size
> and dimensions I prefer do not exist in CF .  BUT  if I had a choice of
> the same frame in either or  I might have a hard time deciding ... lol .
> Imagine a 3 or 4 lb. frame/fork vs. a 8-10 that a Bombadil or Hunq. weigh
> .. it would certainly make me think about it .
>
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Flannery O'Connor

-
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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Hey now, if they had a exact geometry and clearance Titanium AHH it would
be a tempting proposition, not sure it would ever make cost sense though.

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:09 PM, PATRICK MOORE  wrote:

> Garth: So, you are in the relatively small camp who are willing to
> consider that five or six lbs removed might make a bike more pleasant.
> Me, too, but I think I'd opt (given money, time, etc etc) for titanium
> rather than CF simply because ti's durability is a given while at
> least many question the durability of CF. If I knew for certain that
> CF could last a lifetime of normal wear and tear, I'd certainly be
> open to it. I know nothing about it except that some claim it can be
> very strong, others that if feels rather dead. But it would be
> interesting to see monocoque CF used for integrating what are usually
> bolt on pieces -- fenders, storage, lighting, wiring, racks.
>
> (The good news is that y'all's Bombas or Hunqas are probably lighter
> than my Fargo. Now a Ti Fargo would be nice -- I know, they have one,
> but I can't afford it and it would be foolish for me, even if I could,
> to drop the $ just to save what, a couple of lbs?)
>
> Steve: why do you have no interest at all in CF?
>
> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Garth  wrote:
> >
> > I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame with
> > the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the same price
> >  which would you choose ?
> >
> > For myself, I simply do not have the option of riding a CF frame as the
> size
> > and dimensions I prefer do not exist in CF .  BUT  if I had a choice
> of
> > the same frame in either or  I might have a hard time deciding ...
> lol .
> > Imagine a 3 or 4 lb. frame/fork vs. a 8-10 that a Bombadil or Hunq. weigh
> > .. it would certainly make me think about it .
> >
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>
> --
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>
> Flannery O'Connor
>
> -
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> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 14:09 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> Garth: So, you are in the relatively small camp who are willing to
> consider that five or six lbs removed might make a bike more pleasant.
> Me, too, but I think I'd opt (given money, time, etc etc) for titanium
> rather than CF simply because ti's durability is a given while at
> least many question the durability of CF. If I knew for certain that
> CF could last a lifetime of normal wear and tear, I'd certainly be
> open to it. I know nothing about it except that some claim it can be
> very strong, others that if feels rather dead. But it would be
> interesting to see monocoque CF used for integrating what are usually
> bolt on pieces -- fenders, storage, lighting, wiring, racks.
> 
> (The good news is that y'all's Bombas or Hunqas are probably lighter
> than my Fargo. Now a Ti Fargo would be nice -- I know, they have one,
> but I can't afford it and it would be foolish for me, even if I could,
> to drop the $ just to save what, a couple of lbs?)
> 
> Steve: why do you have no interest at all in CF?

I have always liked the way Ti looks, from the first moment I saw the
prototype Merlin MTB tandem they were testing while I was at Amherst at
the Eastern Tandem Rally back in the late 80s.  I went up to it and said
"You are beautiful, what are you!"  

I bought a Spectrum custom Ti in 1991, which I still ride.  It still
looks good.  I also have a Ti Santana tandem, this one polished rather
than clear-coated satin finish.  They look beautiful, they feel great,
and as evidenced by 21 years of regular use, they stand up to it.

I rode a carbon Trek once.  I went to a bike rally in 2000 or 2001 and
Trek was out in force, twisting people's arms to get them to take test
rides.  I rode about 1/4 mi on a Postal Service OCLV and thought it felt
like I was riding a plywood bike, totally dead-feeling, not at all
metallic.

I know two people who have had to have CF frames replaced because they
propped their bikes up against trees w/2 full water bottles, and when
the bikes fell over the frames split where the water bottle cage joins
the frame.  How many times I've had a steel or Ti bike fall over!  Worst
that ever happened was once I had to replace the handle bar.

And then, there's the small matter of what bikes look like.  Today's CF
road bikes look to me like children of the Bowen Spacelander.  None of
them look like what I think a bike should look like.  Some are downright
disgustingly ugly, some just laughable (like that Pinarello that
obviously was left in somebody's car trunk on a 104 degree day).  None
are appealing to me.  ("Yeah, but you're a cranky old man, set in your
ways!"  OK, so?)

Ah, but what of the CF virtues?  Look at that low weight, and that aero
slickness!  Yeah, but when you weigh 0.1 tons and everybody loves to
draft off of you because of what a huge wind shadow you make, a few
pounds off the frame and a few less grams of frame wind resistance don't
mean diddly.  

And besides, the whole question is moot.  You simply can't get a CF
equivalent of the sort of bikes I've bought lately.  Sure, if you want a
700x23 road racer, take your pick, the marketplace is chock full of
them.  But I don't want one.  

I already own the Spectrum, although I use 25mm tires with it, and with
a rack on the back and bar end shifters and a 20/32/44 MTB crank it's
pretty far from the road racers people are making today; and if for some
reason that bike went away I would not replace it.

My two most recent bikes are both randonneurs, one 700x32, one 650Bx42.
Both are low trail, both use a large size Berthoud handlebar bag.  
Both have fittings for 3 water bottle cages, both have fenders.  Not
Rivs, perhaps, but anyone here looking at them would undoubtedly say
they are both "all Rivved out."  You aren't going to find anything like
that in carbon.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 16:28 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Hey now, if they had a exact geometry and clearance Titanium AHH it
> would be a tempting proposition, not sure it would ever make cost
> sense though. 

And there aren't any suitable carbon forks for a bike like that, are
there?



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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Not with the clearance for 42s, that is a pipe dream for sure

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 16:28 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> > Hey now, if they had a exact geometry and clearance Titanium AHH it
> > would be a tempting proposition, not sure it would ever make cost
> > sense though.
>
> And there aren't any suitable carbon forks for a bike like that, are
> there?
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Garth]

On Monday, July 2, 2012 4:35:10 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> And there aren't any suitable carbon forks for a bike like that, are 
> there? 
>
>
> My proposition was a hypothetical Steve . the dimensions of the bikes 
> "could" be identical ... no matter if it's a Bomba, Atlantis, AHH or 
> whatever .  Every dimension "could" be duplicated... meaning the choice 
> would not come down to geometry, or tire size etc purely on material. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Garth]

Yeah Patrick , I've never ridden or owned a CF frame so any information is 
"second hand" ... lol.  The "feel" of a CF may have a lot to do with the 
geometry used also  and you don't really know where a person is coming 
from in saying it feels "dead".  You really can't compare steel and CF 
directly spec for spec because the simply are made differently today . 
Maybe if they still made lugged CF like when they originated in the 80's 
you could compare them ... and I bet they rode quite similar .  

  I guess my main concern though, like yours would be longevity and 
durability in the long run.  And yes ... Titanium would be an interesting 
option too !   

I'm not weight weenie either  but yeah  if the exact same frame 
would weigh 5 lbs. less ?   Heck yes I'd consider it !  I ride hills every 
day too. While yes ... it is all about the experience and less weight may 
not matter in some ways ... it does matter in others.  It depends on how 
you want your experience to be . . .  and we each inherently get to choose 
that experience .  What anyone else thinks  *So What* !  Who ya' riding 
for ?   lol :)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 13:47 -0700, Garth wrote:
> 
> 
> On Monday, July 2, 2012 4:35:10 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> 
> 
> And there aren't any suitable carbon forks for a bike like
> that, are 
> there? 
> 
> 
> My proposition was a hypothetical Steve . the dimensions
> of the bikes "could" be identical ... no matter if it's a
> Bomba, Atlantis, AHH or whatever .  Every dimension "could" be
> duplicated... meaning the choice would not come down to
> geometry, or tire size etc purely on material. 

Too hypothetical and theoretical for me, I'm afraid.  

"Modern" CF -- molded CF, not tube-and-lug construction -- is a mass
production medium.  The mold costs the earth, the first one off costs a
million bucks, and every one after costs two bucks to make.  In order to
pay off the cost of the mold, you need a big production run.  Contrast
that with steel or Ti, where you literally can make any dimension you
want, subject to the availability of the tubing (my Ti Spectrum has
constant diameter chain stays, for example, because back in 1991 there
was no titanium bike tubing, my bike's made of tubing meant to be used
in a nuclear reactor or an airplane) as a one-off and it won't cost any
more than any other bike, one-off or stock.

And the mass market for a bike that would interest me simply does not
exist... even though in my opinion, they make a lot more sense for most
people who are riding CF road racers than those CF road racers.  

Ever see a six foot six guy weighing 230 lb riding a CF road racer with
23mm tires because he can't even fit 25mm tires due to narrow frame
clearances?  (Actually, that friend of mine has hung his Cervelo up on a
hook, and is now riding a custom Ti Seven, and thinks it's a hundred
times nicer bike than the CF Cervelo.)

As long as what sells is faux-Tour-de-France let's all make believe we
are PRO road racers, and everyone riding one wants to be into the
shaved-leg-roadie culture, the market for anything /we/ would be
interested in is going to be pretty small.  And those small production
runs make sense for certain materials... and not for others.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 14:04 -0700, RJM wrote:
> I have ridden enough CF bikes to know that I prefer steel bikes. With
> the size bike I need, I can get a steel bike to under 20 lbs pretty
> easily and that isn't even going completely weight weenie. Getting a
> bike down to 15 lbs won't make me like biking anymore than I already
> do, it won't make the ride any more enjoyable, and it won't suddenly
> make me want to be lance armstrong and use every ride as a race. That
> kind of weight difference just doesn't matter to me at all. What does
> matter is that the bike looks nice, will last for years, and I don't
> have to worry about dropping it.
>  
> Is anybody making a carbon fiber touring bike yet?

No, and not likely anyone ever will.  Not only is touring a very tiny
niche and so not economical for the molded CF method of production,
there's also the matter of rack attachment that Calfee or Crumpton (I
can never keep them straight) mentioned in a sidebar to the BQ review.
He prefers P clamps because then if you drop the bike with a loaded
rack, the rack will slip rather than put a sideways stress on the stays
which would split the stay and would be entirely unrepairable in the
field (me paraphrasing the builder).  

I believe it; as I said, I know two people who had to replace CF frames
because the weight of a water bottle split the downtube when the bike
fell over.  Imagine how much more stress a rack w/two loaded panniers
would create compared to the tiny weight of a water bottle!



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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Garth]

Steve, My hypothesis is for each of us, if we wish, to look at our own 
prejudices towards a material we may actually know nothing about ! Just 
becasue so and so says it was this or that .  It may be true for them... 
but is it true for me ?  And if your favourite frame *could be* 5 pounds 
lighter for the same price  would you still choose your heavier one ? 
.. after all ... weight doesn't matter... right ?  lol :)  

For myself ... it doesn't matter up to point !  I don't want another 10 
lbs. added to my Bombadil for sure !  Nor do I want to ride 1000 gram 
rims.  There IS a difference in feel  and we need not "put up with" 
more weight of the bike than we choose to .  It's all about our individual 
choice.  That's why we even exist ... to *choose *:)

Would I like a F150 that weighed 3000-3500 lbs and had 500 HP and got 50 
MPG ?   Ummm if I could  I just might want it !   We're all kinda 
snobbish in our own ways  and it's okay to admit it ... or not .. lol :)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Pesce]

Garth-
I think the point to be gleaned from the responses to your hypothetical is 
that many people feel that duplicating the geometry of a given bike in a 
different material does *not* make it the same bike, only lighter. A bike 
is more than the sum of the geometry angles plus weight. For many people 
specific kinds of  strength, durability, ineffable ride "qualities", looks, 
and appreciation for a particular craft of construction ALL contribute to 
making it your favorite bike. 
You can't conclude that people irrationally hate carbon just because you've 
asked them a question where you think the only variable is carbon or steel. 

I'm all for well-constructed mental exercises, and I appreciate your 
question if for no other reason than it lit up the forum during a boring 
afternoon at work! 


Pete in CT

On Monday, July 2, 2012 5:23:01 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
>
> Steve, My hypothesis is for each of us, if we wish, to look at our own 
> prejudices towards a material we may actually know nothing about ! Just 
> becasue so and so says it was this or that .  It may be true for them... 
> but is it true for me ?  And if your favourite frame *could be* 5 pounds 
> lighter for the same price  would you still choose your heavier one ? 
> .. after all ... weight doesn't matter... right ?  lol :)  
>
> For myself ... it doesn't matter up to point !  I don't want another 10 
> lbs. added to my Bombadil for sure !  Nor do I want to ride 1000 gram 
> rims.  There IS a difference in feel  and we need not "put up with" 
> more weight of the bike than we choose to .  It's all about our individual 
> choice.  That's why we even exist ... to *choose *:)
>
> Would I like a F150 that weighed 3000-3500 lbs and had 500 HP and got 50 
> MPG ?   Ummm if I could  I just might want it !   We're all kinda 
> snobbish in our own ways  and it's okay to admit it ... or not .. lol :)
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 14:23 -0700, Garth wrote:
> 
> Steve, My hypothesis is for each of us, if we wish, to look at our own
> prejudices towards a material we may actually know nothing about !
> Just becasue so and so says it was this or that .  It may be true for
> them... but is it true for me ?  And if your favourite frame could be
> 5 pounds lighter for the same price  would you still choose your
> heavier one ? .. after all ... weight doesn't matter... right ?
> lol :)  

And I think I explained why that can never be.  Wishing never makes a
bike, production processes do.  And some materials are more amenable to
a custom, one-off, limited production for a niche market than others.  

If I want to lose 5 lb, it makes more sense to lose it off me than off
the frame.  And if I pursued losing those 5 pounds maybe six times, then
by gar, I could lose a few spokes off my wheels, too.

> For myself ... it doesn't matter up to point !  I don't want another
> 10 lbs. added to my Bombadil for sure !  Nor do I want to ride 1000
> gram rims.  There IS a difference in feel  and we need not "put up
> with" more weight of the bike than we choose to .  It's all about our
> individual choice.  That's why we even exist ... to choose :)

Yes, "Step away from that ice cream bar!"

> Would I like a F150 that weighed 3000-3500 lbs and had 500 HP and got
> 50 MPG ?   Ummm if I could  I just might want it !   We're all
> kinda snobbish in our own ways  and it's okay to admit it ... or
> not .. lol :)

No, that's just plain silly, not snobbish.  500 hp, 50 mpg, pick one.
It's like the holy trinity, "Good, fast, cheap: pick any 2."  Some
things you simply cannot have, and wishing for them is futile.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Interesting discussion -- the RBWlist equivalent of discussing angels
dancing on the points of pins, but interesting. (Actually, the
possibly legendary discussion of angels on pins is interesting to in
that it really bears on the different meanings -- and modes -- of
"presence:" presence of location, presence of causality, etc which, if
y'all were 13th century scholastics-in-training, would be quotidian
--yes!! -- distinctions.)

Interesting nonetheless to hear more people say that CF feels dead. My
brother has a couple of 20 year old Merlins and he likes the ride, but
his few and brief experiences with CF also indicated dead.

FWIW, my heavy-framed-'n'-forked '03 Curt weighed 7 lb for frame, fork
and headset, yet I built it up as a 1X10 to come in at just under 19
lb with the only silly light articles being a ti stem binder bolt;
unless you consider a Phil ti 113 silly light: Phil said that trackies
use them, so I'm not worried.

I myself believe that there is a point at which weight does matter,
but that, also, this point can shift considerably depending on (1) the
subjective propensities of the rider and (2) other qualities of the
bike in question. My erstwhile, fully loaded Herse randonneur was a
true tank: memory has it feeling in heft like the Fargo with the
lighter wheelset; yet it had me pushing a higher gear quite happily.
Magic pixie dust? Hallowed name resonance? Who knows, but it was a
"fast feeling" bike. (I sold it because it did not carry heavy loads
as well as I like and because I have other "fast feeling" bikes, to
wit my Rivs.



On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 14:23 -0700, Garth wrote:
>>
>> Steve, My hypothesis is for each of us, if we wish, to look at our own
>> prejudices towards a material we may actually know nothing about !
>> Just becasue so and so says it was this or that .  It may be true for
>> them... but is it true for me ?  And if your favourite frame could be
>> 5 pounds lighter for the same price  would you still choose your
>> heavier one ? .. after all ... weight doesn't matter... right ?
>> lol :)
>
> And I think I explained why that can never be.  Wishing never makes a
> bike, production processes do.  And some materials are more amenable to
> a custom, one-off, limited production for a niche market than others.
>
> If I want to lose 5 lb, it makes more sense to lose it off me than off
> the frame.  And if I pursued losing those 5 pounds maybe six times, then
> by gar, I could lose a few spokes off my wheels, too.
>
>> For myself ... it doesn't matter up to point !  I don't want another
>> 10 lbs. added to my Bombadil for sure !  Nor do I want to ride 1000
>> gram rims.  There IS a difference in feel  and we need not "put up
>> with" more weight of the bike than we choose to .  It's all about our
>> individual choice.  That's why we even exist ... to choose :)
>
> Yes, "Step away from that ice cream bar!"
>
>> Would I like a F150 that weighed 3000-3500 lbs and had 500 HP and got
>> 50 MPG ?   Ummm if I could  I just might want it !   We're all
>> kinda snobbish in our own ways  and it's okay to admit it ... or
>> not .. lol :)
>
> No, that's just plain silly, not snobbish.  500 hp, 50 mpg, pick one.
> It's like the holy trinity, "Good, fast, cheap: pick any 2."  Some
> things you simply cannot have, and wishing for them is futile.
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Garth]

Steve  If everyone on earth stopped using their imagination  there 
would be no more life.  Life IS imagination . 

Where does anything come from ?  Bicycles? Cars ? Buildings? etc. etc.
Someone had to imagine them into being .   They were not dropped off to us 
by a band of cycling aliens , were they ? ; 

Our Imagination creates  our creations do not imagine themselves into 
being. 

As I said ... it's all our choice of beliefs ... everything.  The only 
thing that stops us from creating a 50 mpg 50 hp truck, a 3lb. Bomabadil 
frame,  or *whatever we imagine* Is not allowing our imagination to 
imagine the possibility.   Ask any inventor of anything  everything 
starts of imagination.  Look at electricity  it couldn't be done 
because all there was was lamps. Impossible most said here's your 
choice of lamps ... live with them lol.  Well, someone imagined  
someone played and worked with that imagination ... and the "impossible" 
became reality .   Rivendell Bicycles did not come to be because someone 
told Grant it could not be done because it did not exist ! It existed in 
his imagination first ... and here it is. 

And that's the beauty of life  you make your choices ... I make mine 
... everyone makes their own. Life rocks !!! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 15:59 -0700, Garth wrote:
> As I said ... it's all our choice of beliefs ... everything.  The only
> thing that stops us from creating a 50 mpg 50 hp truck, a 3lb.
> Bomabadil frame,  or whatever we imagine Is not allowing our
> imagination to imagine the possibility.  

Sorry, but I think the laws of physics have something to do with it as
well.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[René Sterental]

FWIW, I still remember how in my pre-Rivendell life I had a steel Gunnar
cyclocross bike that naturally came with a steel fork. Since at the time I
believed carbon was better (but somehow loved how the Gunnar rode more than
my high-end Specialized Roubaix), I ordered a carbon fork right away (and
removed one pound off the weight of the bike) which I proceeded to use on
the bike with 23mm tires.

Then one day, the top cap of the fork separated (it was glued to prevent
the tip of the carbon steerer from being crushed by the stem) and I took it
back to my LBS to have it reglued. For reasons I cannot recall now, I had
to leave the fork at the LBS for about a week or so, which left me no
option but to re-install the original steel fork.

I did that, and on my next morning commute to work, when I reached a
stretch of road that had several large ruts in the pavement that always
made me nervous because I felt they wanted to catch my tire and throw me
off the bike, I braced myself as usual to ride over them. To my greatest
amazement, I rode over them and didn't feel a thing. I mean, all of a
sudden it was as if I had suspension on my bike. No sense that the ruts
were trying to throw me off the bike, no jarring as I rode over them. I
couldn't believe it.

Needless to say, I left the steel fork on the bike and rode it like that
until I sold it when I bought my first Rivendell bike. The fit and position
of the Gunnar were just wrong for me, but I loved how it rode with its
steel fork better than my way more expensive Specialized Roubaix. That one
I sold after I fully understood that there was no way I was going to ever
be able to ride it with any semblance of comfort after I had switched to
the Rivendell fit.

So, if I was able to get an identical carbon frame to any of my Rivendells,
I'd still prefer the steel ride. If I was going to go custom, however, I'd
consider a Ti frame. I don't know if there are Ti forks or how they ride,
but most likely I'd put a steel fork. On the other hand, between a custom
lugged steel frame and a regular welded Ti frame, I'd think I'd end up
going for the steel lugged frame. That is, assuming I found a custom
builder that gave me the option... :-)

The same experience happened to me years ago when living in Venezuela. I
had an aluminum Titus dual suspension frame that rode wonderfully, but fear
of riding it on the street made me get a cheaper hard tail. Unknowingly to
me at the time, I found a great deal on a Jamis Dragon hardtail steel frame
and proceeded to build it. In case you haven't guessed it, the bike I ended
loving more for its ride was the steel hardtail (with tubeless tires)
instead of the fancier dual suspension bike (also with tubeless tires).

So I learned my lesson twice: steel bikes ride like no other bikes for me.

René

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I agree with Steve, and share his wholehearted disinterest in CF. 

Riding a bike, for me, has nothing to do with eking out every milligram of 
performance. A customer lady asked me last week if I was a "racer". My 
response was an entirely unplanned and unrehearsed: "Nope, I ride my bike 
for transportation, recreation, and adventure." I think that about sums it 
up. Because these endeavors usually don't benefit much, if any, from a 
couple pounds either way, CF holds no appeal for me. If it happens someday 
that CF frames become as tough and versatile and inexpensive as a Surly 
Cross-Check, I might reconsider, but then again, why bother? 



On Monday, July 2, 2012 3:02:53 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 12:59 -0700, Garth wrote: 
> > 
> > I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame 
> > with the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the 
> > same price  which would you choose ? 
>
> Steel, without question.  I have no interest whatever in carbon fiber. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Joe Bernard]

I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet. Lugs. You can try to spec a 
CF frame to duplicate a Rivendell all you want, but you're still not gonna 
get pretty lugs and contrasting creme panels. No CF for me..I'd miss the 
lugs, and I don't trust that thin plastic. I watch a lot of Formula One 
auto racing, and I've seen a lot of CF cars wreck: that stuff snaps into 
lethal shards. Nuh uh.
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA. 

On Monday, July 2, 2012 9:07:45 PM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
wrote:

> I agree with Steve, and share his wholehearted disinterest in CF. 
>
> Riding a bike, for me, has nothing to do with eking out every milligram of 
> performance. A customer lady asked me last week if I was a "racer". My 
> response was an entirely unplanned and unrehearsed: "Nope, I ride my bike 
> for transportation, recreation, and adventure." I think that about sums it 
> up. Because these endeavors usually don't benefit much, if any, from a 
> couple pounds either way, CF holds no appeal for me. If it happens someday 
> that CF frames become as tough and versatile and inexpensive as a Surly 
> Cross-Check, I might reconsider, but then again, why bother? 
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 2, 2012 3:02:53 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 12:59 -0700, Garth wrote: 
>> > 
>> > I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame 
>> > with the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the 
>> > same price  which would you choose ? 
>>
>> Steel, without question.  I have no interest whatever in carbon fiber. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Garth]

"If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it." 
-- Albert Einstein

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[blueride2]

I think CF bikes have their place in the world of cycling, and I certainly 
subscribe to "live and let live" as it applies to cycling. It should be 
"ride and let ride". The point is ride what you have, and try to have a 
good time doing it.Who can deny that riding in a pace-line at 20+ mph isn't 
a hoot? Not me, that's for sure. A good lightweight CF bike makes this a 
lot easier, than say a 26 pound steel bike.No, what is upsetting is the 
near total dominance of CF bikes in the market today. If riders could own 
just one bike, most of us, would be better served on a steel bike. More 
versatile for sure.

I'm in the middle of "Just Ride" and find it a very enjoyable and 
interesting read. I do think Grant's off-base somewhat on the durability of 
CF frames. Having owned several CF bikes over a 10 year span, I haven't had 
a lick of trouble with any of them. No exploding or cracked frames, I even 
crashed one of them. Look at the millions of CF forks out there. If there 
was an issue with these forks self-destructing, the liability issue would 
quickly drive manufacturers out-of-business. Face it, CF bikes are here to 
stay.
A well designed CF frame will last a long time. Hell, at times, I even ride 
CF wheels. Oh, the horror of it all!

Having said that, I love steel bikes too. The ride quality just can't be 
beat, except maybe for Ti bikes, but I've never ridden nor owned one so I 
can't comment.

Richard



On Monday, July 2, 2012 4:02:53 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 12:59 -0700, Garth wrote: 
> > 
> > I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame 
> > with the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the 
> > same price  which would you choose ? 
>
> Steel, without question.  I have no interest whatever in carbon fiber. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

I have read the book too and dont take it as describing that CF fails more
often, its just that when it does it is catastrophic and sometimes deadly.
Steel, Aluminum and Titanium all fail too but its just that when they do it
is somewhat predicatable and less sudden, giving the rider time to
compensate or dismount the bike before something dangerous happens.  Also
to Grant's point steel can be fixed if it fails while CF cannot. As i
mentioned earlier I rode a "vintage" LOOK KG96 for a long time and had no
issues but if there was an issue I would not have seen it until the bike
collapsed under me, different from my old Peugot which developed a small
then increasingly larger crack around the BB to let me know it was time to
hang it up.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:47 AM, blueride2  wrote:

> I think CF bikes have their place in the world of cycling, and I certainly
> subscribe to "live and let live" as it applies to cycling. It should be
> "ride and let ride". The point is ride what you have, and try to have a
> good time doing it.Who can deny that riding in a pace-line at 20+ mph isn't
> a hoot? Not me, that's for sure. A good lightweight CF bike makes this a
> lot easier, than say a 26 pound steel bike.No, what is upsetting is the
> near total dominance of CF bikes in the market today. If riders could own
> just one bike, most of us, would be better served on a steel bike. More
> versatile for sure.
>
> I'm in the middle of "Just Ride" and find it a very enjoyable and
> interesting read. I do think Grant's off-base somewhat on the durability of
> CF frames. Having owned several CF bikes over a 10 year span, I haven't had
> a lick of trouble with any of them. No exploding or cracked frames, I even
> crashed one of them. Look at the millions of CF forks out there. If there
> was an issue with these forks self-destructing, the liability issue would
> quickly drive manufacturers out-of-business. Face it, CF bikes are here to
> stay.
> A well designed CF frame will last a long time. Hell, at times, I even
> ride CF wheels. Oh, the horror of it all!
>
> Having said that, I love steel bikes too. The ride quality just can't be
> beat, except maybe for Ti bikes, but I've never ridden nor owned one so I
> can't comment.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 2, 2012 4:02:53 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 12:59 -0700, Garth wrote:
>> >
>> > I wonder  if everyone had the choice of their favorite Riv frame
>> > with the exact same dimensions, in both steel and CF for about the
>> > same price  which would you choose ?
>>
>> Steel, without question.  I have no interest whatever in carbon fiber.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Cyclofiend]

On Jul 2, 2012, at 2:23 PM, Garth wrote:
Steve, My hypothesis is for each of us, if we wish, to look at our  
own prejudices towards a material we may actually know nothing  
about ! Just becasue so and so says it was this or that .  It may be  
true for them... but is it true for me ?  And if your favourite  
frame could be 5 pounds lighter for the same price  would you  
still choose your heavier one ? .. after all ... weight doesn't  
matter... right ?  lol :)



There are a couple of things to consider.

First, if you make the frame and fork out of CF, I think you would be  
hard pressed to remove 5 pounds vs a modern steel frame.  There just  
isn't that much difference.  To remove 5 or 10 pounds from a bicycle  
setup means you have to pursue minimizing weight in componentry as well.


Second, from working in the bicycle industry and the fishing/outdoor  
industry for a while, I've seen many, many, many Carbon Fiber failures  
- a number of which I've experienced firsthand.  The issue is - and  
always will be - the nature of the way CF fails.  In my direct  
experience, it fails catastrophically and with no warning.   It  
folds.  It splits. It severs. It cracks.(And Aluminum tends to  
fail in a similar fashion, though in my experience it at least gives  
more warning if you actively look for surface cracks.)  Once it takes  
a direct impact, you no longer trust it.


Way back in pre-history.  A Person Who Knows told me that the best  
bike is the one that gets you home. (It wasn't GP, by the way). I've  
kept that nugget in the back of my brain since then.  Even when I was  
getting transfixed by lighter and lighter bits, that kept getting more  
and more fiddly and idiosyncratic.  When I realized I was spending  
more time coaxing my bikes to work than riding them, I started to  
reassess the idea of weight meaning everything.


My bikes (well, all but my old soft-nose mtb which I don't really ride  
that much) are steel because it is the best material for me, the way I  
ride and my piece of mind when I'm rolling down the mountain at  
speed.Yeah, there are places you can focus on to sensibly remove  
excess weight, but the times that really matters (as has been pretty  
well documented) are pretty much when the road points upward.


- Jim / Cyclofiend.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Video of Ur-Rivendell (look at the saddle and post!) beating CF.
No-retention pedals 'n' all! Whoo hoo!

http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2009/10/video-100yearold-bike-vs-tour-de-france-bike.html

The hefty blondes must be the control group. Dunno about the loudmouth
in the suit.

They are speaking Welsh.

-- 
"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Brewster Fong]

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:03:55 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote: 
>
> Also to Grant's point steel can be fixed if it fails while CF cannot. 

 
Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON FIBER 
FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be 
fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading 
the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can 
actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon! 
 
Btw, for those of you who don't believe it, CF can easily be repaired and 
there are several builders who do it. Here's one of the best:
 
http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/
 
For photos go here:
 
http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/repair-examples-photos/
 
Good Luck!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

I have seen calfees work and it is top notch but I would never ride a
repaired cf frame.
On Jul 3, 2012 4:26 PM, "Brewster Fong"  wrote:

>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:03:55 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>>
>> Also to Grant's point steel can be fixed if it fails while CF cannot.
>
>
> Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON
> FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be
> fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading
> the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can
> actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon!
>
> Btw, for those of you who don't believe it, CF can easily be repaired and
> there are several builders who do it. Here's one of the best:
>
> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/
>
> For photos go here:
>
> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/repair-examples-photos/
>
> Good Luck!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[René Sterental]

Can we drop the carbon vs. steel discussion? Unless discuss carbon vs steel
helmets... :-D

There doesn't seem to be much enlightment in this topic...

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

> I have seen calfees work and it is top notch but I would never ride a
> repaired cf frame.
>  On Jul 3, 2012 4:26 PM, "Brewster Fong"  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:03:55 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>>>
>>> Also to Grant's point steel can be fixed if it fails while CF cannot.
>>
>>
>> Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON
>> FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be
>> fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading
>> the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can
>> actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon!
>>
>> Btw, for those of you who don't believe it, CF can easily be repaired and
>> there are several builders who do it. Here's one of the best:
>>
>> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/
>>
>> For photos go here:
>>
>> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/repair-examples-photos/
>>
>> Good Luck!
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Poor aluminum doesn't even get to be part of the feud, haha.
On Jul 3, 2012 11:29 PM, "René Sterental"  wrote:

> Can we drop the carbon vs. steel discussion? Unless discuss carbon vs
> steel helmets... :-D
>
> There doesn't seem to be much enlightment in this topic...
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:
>
>> I have seen calfees work and it is top notch but I would never ride a
>> repaired cf frame.
>>  On Jul 3, 2012 4:26 PM, "Brewster Fong"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:03:55 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

 Also to Grant's point steel can be fixed if it fails while CF cannot.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON
>>> FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be
>>> fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading
>>> the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can
>>> actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon!
>>>
>>> Btw, for those of you who don't believe it, CF can easily be repaired
>>> and there are several builders who do it. Here's one of the best:
>>>
>>> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/
>>>
>>> For photos go here:
>>>
>>> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/repair-examples-photos/
>>>
>>> Good Luck!
>>>
>>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[charlie]

I'm not sure if he said CF can't be repaired..but it is definitely 
easier to find someone to repair a steel frame in nearly every major city 
and probably many rural areas too. Brazing or silver soldering it a fairly 
common skill among many rural dwellers..I even learned it in shop class 
in high school. CF wasn't invented then and without specific knowledge and 
specialized materials you are kind of left with a broken bicycle until you 
can get your frame to a CF repair place. I think this might be Grants 
perspective more or less and that does make a case for steel over most 
other materials.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 1:26:08 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:03:55 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote: 
>>
>> Also to Grant's point steel can be fixed if it fails while CF cannot. 
>
>  
> Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON 
> FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be 
> fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading 
> the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can 
> actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon! 
>  
> Btw, for those of you who don't believe it, CF can easily be repaired and 
> there are several builders who do it. Here's one of the best:
>  
> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/
>  
> For photos go here:
>  
> http://www.calfeedesign.com/repair/repair-examples-photos/
>  
> Good Luck!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Repairability is usually irrelevant. Often when a steel frame breaks or gets 
crashed, the repair/repaint bill rivals the cost of a new frame. Most people 
don't go through with it, in my experience.

In any case, the percentage of broken frames of any material that get repaired 
is tiny.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[charlie]

True but I suppose I'm talking about a tourist in a foreign country or even 
in America with perhaps a busted dropout or something of that nature...even 
a cobbled repair on a tube using a 1/2 or full tube sleeve is possible in 
an emergency that would allow one to finish a tour with perhaps a rattle 
can paint job on the road until the frame can be properly worked on if one 
so chooses. I wouldn't pay to have someone else repair a $1000 dollar frame 
but I would repair a $2000 Atlantis or a custom for sure. The point I'm 
making is that it can more easily be done by more people across the country.

On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:32:29 PM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
wrote:
>
> Repairability is usually irrelevant. Often when a steel frame breaks or 
> gets crashed, the repair/repaint bill rivals the cost of a new frame. Most 
> people don't go through with it, in my experience.
>
> In any case, the percentage of broken frames of any material that get 
> repaired is tiny.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steven Frederick]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:47 AM, blueride2  wrote:

> Who can deny that riding in a pace-line at 20+ mph isn't a hoot? Not me,
> that's for sure.
>


I certainly can-I find pacelining in turn tense and tedious.  Not unlike
driving now that I think of it.

SteveF, East Lansing, MI

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[RJM]

This year I have been doing quite a bit of club riding, which seems to be 
just paceline riding. I have to say I don't prefer it and agree with Steve 
F that it is tense and tedious. It is also the reason why most clubs that I 
have tried to participate in lose beginning members or people who don't 
want to ride like they are preparing for a race. It is a shame that most of 
the club rides are geared towards pacelining. 
 
Paceline riding is a race technique and good for getting more speed out of 
a group of riders, but why it has to be what "road biking" is all about is 
beyond me.
 

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 10:11:32 AM UTC-5, stevef wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:47 AM, blueride2  wrote:
>
>> Who can deny that riding in a pace-line at 20+ mph isn't a hoot? Not me, 
>> that's for sure.
>>
>
>
> I certainly can-I find pacelining in turn tense and tedious.  Not unlike 
> driving now that I think of it. 
>
> SteveF, East Lansing, MI
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Addison Wilhite]

The flip side for me is the local club (with a bunch of great people mind
you) that go out for 20 - 50 mile rides depending on the weekly/monthly
schedule on their website and proceed to stop, regroup, stop regroup, stop
and eat, regroup, eat some more, etc.   It's not that that isn't an
enjoyable thing at times.  But if I have a free weekend morning to put in
30-40 miles I typically don't have 4 hours that I'm willing to spend on it.
 I don't need to paceline ride but the slow meanders can drive me nuts as
well.

Regards,

-- 
Addison
http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Will]

Several years ago I snagged a small tree clipping which got sucked into my 
front fender. The fender (plastic) collapsed into the fork crown and I went 
over the bars. Knocked my head, helmets are helpful, but relevant to this, 
I bent both fork blades and deformed the top and down tubes slightly. Took 
the bike over to Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI. They fixed it. Realigned the 
frame, rebuilt the headset (had to be removed to facilitate the cold 
bending). Cost: $112. 

Bike rides true. I can no-hand it. 

So I dunno. I think if folks find the right shop (must have table jig) they 
can restore moderate damage a lot more cheaply than going new. 

Grant is right about steel.  



On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 8:32:29 PM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
wrote:
>
> Repairability is usually irrelevant. Often when a steel frame breaks or 
> gets crashed, the repair/repaint bill rivals the cost of a new frame. Most 
> people don't go through with it, in my experience.
>
> In any case, the percentage of broken frames of any material that get 
> repaired is tiny.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[pb]

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 1:26:08 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>  
> Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON 
> FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be 
> fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading 
> the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can 
> actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon!  
>
 
I appreciated Brewster's comments.  When I was a Reader subscriber, I was 
always saddened and alienated when Grant would assert that certain things 
were stupid, inferior, a fraud, a lie, a hoax, blah, blah, blah.  I always 
wished that he would figure out that it's sufficient to be different and to 
promote an alternative.  It's not necessary to make derogatory comments -- 
facts, as one sees them, are more persuasive.  I think that "Xxx may 
be popular, but we feel that yyy is a desireable alternative -- or more 
desireable -- for the following reasons" is much more more appealing to me 
than "Xxx is a big fat lie".  
 
I've got bikes hanging in the garage that range from full-race (no more 
carbon frames, as it happens, titanium instead, but certainly carbon forks) 
to classic and neo-classic steel, to a rather tasty classic townie 
conversion with rubber pedals.  I enjoy and appreciate all of them.
 
Shrug.
 
pb, who thoroughly enjoys riding in fast pacelines, and who also thoroughly 
enjoys relaxed and aimless solo cruises
 
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

While I dont agree with Grant on some stuff (see helmets) I admire his
passion. All too often those who run a business can be worn down over time
by the tide of criticism and in an attempt to appeal to the biggest
audience possible and wind up sounding like some politician who cant just
take a stand on something.  I would rather have someone I vehemently
disagree with than some syncophant who doesnt want to step on anyone's
toes.  And as for the hating on CF I do remember reading that GP knew
someone who lost thier life due to a snapped CF fork so maybe it is a bit
more personal to him than just cost and other superficial concerns.  Again,
I rode CF, and a SS conversion at that but as a bigger guy I was glad was
glad to see it go rather than worrying if that next pothole was going to be
my doom or not.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:26 PM, pb  wrote:

>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 1:26:08 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>>
>> Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON
>> FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't be
>> fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of degrading
>> the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can
>> actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon!
>>
>
> I appreciated Brewster's comments.  When I was a Reader subscriber, I was
> always saddened and alienated when Grant would assert that certain things
> were stupid, inferior, a fraud, a lie, a hoax, blah, blah, blah.  I always
> wished that he would figure out that it's sufficient to be different and to
> promote an alternative.  It's not necessary to make derogatory comments --
> facts, as one sees them, are more persuasive.  I think that "Xxx may
> be popular, but we feel that yyy is a desireable alternative -- or more
> desireable -- for the following reasons" is much more more appealing to me
> than "Xxx is a big fat lie".
>
> I've got bikes hanging in the garage that range from full-race (no more
> carbon frames, as it happens, titanium instead, but certainly carbon forks)
> to classic and neo-classic steel, to a rather tasty classic townie
> conversion with rubber pedals.  I enjoy and appreciate all of them.
>
> Shrug.
>
> pb, who thoroughly enjoys riding in fast pacelines, and who also
> thoroughly enjoys relaxed and aimless solo cruises
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Mike]

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 12:40:50 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>
> While I dont agree with Grant on some stuff (see helmets) I admire his 
> passion. 
>

Agreed. 

I loved Just Ride. And yeah, I didn't agree with all of it but there's an 
energy and enthusiasm to it that is infectious. I'm really grateful I fell 
under the Riv spell as it got me out of a rut with cycling. At the same 
time that I was discovering Riv I was also discovering randonneuring which 
also helped save cycling for me. I feel I've found a middle ground between 
wannabe racer and unracer. To be honest, there are plenty of days where I'm 
kitted up and hammering but there are also days when I'm on platform pedals 
and noodling around on mixed terrain. I don't have to choose one over the 
other, I can maneuver between the two. 

Cycling is huge and there are all kinds of people out there enjoying it on 
their own and basically living the Just Ride ethos who have probably never 
heard of Grant or Rivendell. There's others like myself who found stuff 
like that to be refreshing and revitalizing in spite of initial skepticism. 

When I was finishing the Cascade 1200k last week I was riding with guys on 
contemporary road bikes. Nice CF ones. Part of me started thinking, maybe I 
need to approach CF with a more open mind, maybe there's a place for one of 
those bikes in my stable since I'm riding strong and feeling enthusiastic 
about cycling. Today when I was finishing up a short fast(ish) ride I went 
by two bike shops and was looking at CF bikes--"endurance" and "distance" 
models with lower BB heights and longer stays. No way. Or at least not 
today. No way would I choose a bike that wouldn't fit at least a 28 and a 
fender and there's no way I'm riding wheels with less than 32 spokes. Maybe 
I'm missing out but it's just not for me. My CC with Jack Browns, a WTB 
saddle, bars a few CM below the saddle and indexed BE shifters are go fast 
enough for me. I may consider STI shifters later in the year but certainly 
not now. 

Tomorrow I'm looking forward to getting back on my Hilsen which is 
currently set up with platform pedals and racks and doing a mixed terrain 
ride through Forest Park. Maybe I'll bring along Just Ride and read it at a 
cafe mid-ride. 

--mike

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Joe Bernard]

I post frequently on a cable news blog, and every few weeks someone will 
respond to my statement about this or that with "That's just your opinion!" 
Uh, yeah..most people don't need to be reminded that I'm voicing my opinion 
when I say something on a blog. As Grant has stated many times - including 
this week - he writes about things from his POV. He's not pretending that 
everything he says is an irrefutable fact, or devoid of all hyperbole. If 
his Blug turns into and endless series of IMOs and YRMVs, I'll stop 
reading. I don't need caution stickers all over the opinions I read.
 
Joe "carbon fiber forks are stupid" Bernard
Vallejo, CA. 
 

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 7:27:52 PM UTC-7, Mike wrote:

> On Thursday, July 5, 2012 12:40:50 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>>
>> While I dont agree with Grant on some stuff (see helmets) I admire his 
>> passion. 
>>
>
> Agreed. 
>
> I loved Just Ride. And yeah, I didn't agree with all of it but there's an 
> energy and enthusiasm to it that is infectious. I'm really grateful I fell 
> under the Riv spell as it got me out of a rut with cycling. At the same 
> time that I was discovering Riv I was also discovering randonneuring which 
> also helped save cycling for me. I feel I've found a middle ground between 
> wannabe racer and unracer. To be honest, there are plenty of days where I'm 
> kitted up and hammering but there are also days when I'm on platform pedals 
> and noodling around on mixed terrain. I don't have to choose one over the 
> other, I can maneuver between the two. 
>
> Cycling is huge and there are all kinds of people out there enjoying it on 
> their own and basically living the Just Ride ethos who have probably never 
> heard of Grant or Rivendell. There's others like myself who found stuff 
> like that to be refreshing and revitalizing in spite of initial skepticism. 
>
> When I was finishing the Cascade 1200k last week I was riding with guys on 
> contemporary road bikes. Nice CF ones. Part of me started thinking, maybe I 
> need to approach CF with a more open mind, maybe there's a place for one of 
> those bikes in my stable since I'm riding strong and feeling enthusiastic 
> about cycling. Today when I was finishing up a short fast(ish) ride I went 
> by two bike shops and was looking at CF bikes--"endurance" and "distance" 
> models with lower BB heights and longer stays. No way. Or at least not 
> today. No way would I choose a bike that wouldn't fit at least a 28 and a 
> fender and there's no way I'm riding wheels with less than 32 spokes. Maybe 
> I'm missing out but it's just not for me. My CC with Jack Browns, a WTB 
> saddle, bars a few CM below the saddle and indexed BE shifters are go fast 
> enough for me. I may consider STI shifters later in the year but certainly 
> not now. 
>
> Tomorrow I'm looking forward to getting back on my Hilsen which is 
> currently set up with platform pedals and racks and doing a mixed terrain 
> ride through Forest Park. Maybe I'll bring along Just Ride and read it at a 
> cafe mid-ride. 
>
> --mike
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Pesce]

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 10:27:52 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
>
> "...Today when I was finishing up a short fast(ish) ride I went by two 
> bike shops and was looking at CF bikes--"endurance" and "distance" models 
> with lower BB heights and longer stays. No way. Or at least not today. No 
> way would I choose a bike that wouldn't fit at least a 28 and a fender and 
> there's no way I'm riding wheels with less than 32 spokes"



Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't a CF 'cross bike work in this case?  

-Pete in CT

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Mike]

On Friday, July 6, 2012 6:58:22 AM UTC-7, Peter Pesce wrote:
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't a CF 'cross bike work in this case?  
>
> -Pete in CT
>

Yeah, that would be an option but most of them seem to have fairly short 
HTs making it hard to get the bars where I'd want them although most of 
them tend to have fender eyelets. The idea of a CF bike was just a passing 
interest. It's not something I'm gonna get. Just not impressed. 

One thing that is nice is that there are so many options for inexpensive 
all-road steel bikes with nice clearance. The fit on my CC isn't ideal but 
it works. All-City, Salsa, & Surly are all offering good all-road bikes. 
Salsa has some new bikes coming out including a "gravel grinder." All-City 
has some nice bikes. Surly is great and I'm curious if this will be the 
year they release a disc brake cross bike although disc brakes aren't 
something that really interest me.

I'm watching the tour as I respond to this and there was a pretty big 
pile-up of riders. Lots of them standing around waiting for new bikes and 
wheels. You gotta wonder, if they were on steel bikes more traditional 
wheels (28s as opposed to CF deep dish) would they weather cashes better? 
Would they be that much slower? I sorta doubt it. I think Grant has talked 
about it how it would be neat if the riders didn't have support cars easily 
available to them and had to fix their own flats. You'd see different 
equipment for sure.

--mike 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[pb]

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 9:09:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
 
"carbon fiber forks are stupid"
 
Your approach and your passion, as someone else called it, fit well in the 
contemporary landscape of confrontational divisiveness, and are effective 
not in furthering the conversation, but in terminating it.
 
Peter Bridge
(Who believes that most facts are subjective, and who misses the courtesy, 
good humour, and wit of William F. Buckley Jr.)
 
 
 
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[rlh3...@gmail.com]

Perhaps it's personal with him, I don't know. I also admire the passion, and  
strong opinions, based on facts, can be refreshing. I know Rivendell sells  
some fine bicycles at reasonable prices. I just picked up a Homer and spent  
about a half-hour just looking at it. It's really quite stunning. The lug  
work, headbadge, and paint all work together to produce one fine piece of  
eye candy. I'm almost too scared to ride the damn thing! I said almost. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

-Original message-
From: Peter Morgano 
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Jul 5, 2012 15:40:50 EDT
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

While I dont agree with Grant on some stuff (see helmets) I admire his
passion. All too often those who run a business can be worn down over time
by the tide of criticism and in an attempt to appeal to the biggest
audience possible and wind up sounding like some politician who cant just
take a stand on something.  I would rather have someone I vehemently
disagree with than some syncophant who doesnt want to step on anyone's
toes.  And as for the hating on CF I do remember reading that GP knew
someone who lost thier life due to a snapped CF fork so maybe it is a bit
more personal to him than just cost and other superficial concerns.  Again,
I rode CF, and a SS conversion at that but as a bigger guy I was glad was
glad to see it go rather than worrying if that next pothole was going to be
my doom or not.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:26 PM, pb  wrote:



On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 1:26:08 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:



Why does Grant continue to propagate such falsehood. Of course CARBON
FIBER FRAMES CAN BE REPAIRED. Grants continued insistance that it "can't  

be
fixed" makes him look petty and shows that he has no other way of  

degrading

the material to sell his supposedly *superior* steel frames. Note, it can
actually be easier and cheaper to repair carbon!



I appreciated Brewster's comments.  When I was a Reader subscriber, I was
always saddened and alienated when Grant would assert that certain things
were stupid, inferior, a fraud, a lie


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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

I've been riding the '99 gofast which of all my three bikes probably
gets the least use (since most of my riding is "get-to-there" riding),
and I find every time that any thoughts of converting it into a more
utilitarian steed vanish when I find myself climbing hills that I
usually walk (72" '03 fixed) or gear down to ~30" (Fargo) to climb
(and this with the 75" fixed!) and find myself pushing the higher gear
as fast as lower ones against winds and inclines.

My legs are sore today from the last few days' of pushing that 75"
gear, uphill and against wind, harder than I had anticipated doing.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:26 AM, hobie  wrote:
> Havn't read the book yet. Though I really appreciate what Rivendell is
> about. All of us on this list are big fans correct? Mark at Riv rides fast
> lightweight Rivs for racing as does Kris Kostman,don't know if he races
> anymore but he rides a Rodeo. I have defintly noticed a difference in my
> overall performance by shaving some weight off of my bike,


-- 
"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Scott Henry]

Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that
work 100% perfectly.

I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the
early 90s.

Guess how stupid that is.

I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.

Scott





On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
> stupid.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the
koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
Scott


Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so condescending.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:

> Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
> bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
> I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that
> work 100% perfectly.
>
> I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the
> early 90s.
>
> Guess how stupid that is.
>
> I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
>> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
>> stupid.
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Scott Henry]

Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have only
met a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people
here post.

I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but
,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just
weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who only
consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old serrota
list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to
appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards the
faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, heavy,
comfort bicycles.

As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon frame/fork
break, fail or bend?
OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail?

As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of one
small type.

Scott Henry
Dayton, OH
come see me



On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

>  I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the
> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>  Scott
>
>
> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so
> condescending.
>
>  On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>
>>  Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
>> bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
>> I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that
>> work 100% perfectly.
>>
>> I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the
>> early 90s.
>>
>> Guess how stupid that is.
>>
>> I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
>>> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
>>> stupid.
>>>
>>>
>> --
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>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Well I dont want to call this a troll post like they would at BikeForums
but come on this is the Rivendell owners bunch so I would say they are
focused on one type of bike, mainly Rivendells. While most of us own other
bikes coming to this list and expecting people to rave about thier CAAD10
would be pretty silly.  Oh and my bike is neither slow nor heavy, I am slow
and heavy, but it sure is comfortable.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:

> Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have only
> met a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people
> here post.
>
> I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but
> ,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just
> weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who only
> consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old serrota
> list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to
> appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards the
> faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, heavy,
> comfort bicycles.
>
> As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon frame/fork
> break, fail or bend?
> OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail?
>
> As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of one
> small type.
>
> Scott Henry
> Dayton, OH
> come see me
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:
>
>>  I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>  Scott
>>
>>
>> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so
>> condescending.
>>
>>  On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>>
>>>  Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
>>> bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
>>> I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that
>>> work 100% perfectly.
>>>
>>> I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the
>>> early 90s.
>>>
>>> Guess how stupid that is.
>>>
>>> I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
 supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
 stupid.


>>> --
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>>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Kelly]

Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.

As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you complain 
on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)

Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.

I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one seat 
post break.

Haven't broke the others yet

I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.

I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general.. What's 
your excuse.

Kelly

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Scott Henry]

Absolutely this is a Rivendell list.  And I own a Quickbeam and I bought
the book (and give it a moderate review).   But I also have a Cannondale
CAAD 6 too.  And a Trek OCLV and a Kogswell P and a Schwinn unicycle and
tandem and many more, my favorite is my Handsome Speedy.  They are all
bikes and and I enjoy riding them all.  Not one of them is bad, even though
quite a few aren't steel.

None of them have even exploded underneath me will I was riding.  Not even
the race bikes which have been crashed numerous times.

We are forgetting the title of the book.  "Just Ride"He didnt title it
"Just Ride : only if your bike looks like one that I sell"
Scott




On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

> Well I dont want to call this a troll post like they would at BikeForums
> but come on this is the Rivendell owners bunch so I would say they are
> focused on one type of bike, mainly Rivendells. While most of us own other
> bikes coming to this list and expecting people to rave about thier CAAD10
> would be pretty silly.  Oh and my bike is neither slow nor heavy, I am slow
> and heavy, but it sure is comfortable.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>
>> Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have only
>> met a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people
>> here post.
>>
>> I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but
>> ,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just
>> weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who only
>> consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old serrota
>> list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to
>> appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards the
>> faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, heavy,
>> comfort bicycles.
>>
>> As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon frame/fork
>> break, fail or bend?
>> OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail?
>>
>> As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of one
>> small type.
>>
>> Scott Henry
>> Dayton, OH
>> come see me
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>>  Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so
>>> condescending.
>>>
>>>  On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>>>
  Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
 bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
 I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other
 that work 100% perfectly.

 I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in
 the early 90s.

 Guess how stupid that is.

 I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
 koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.

 Scott





 On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
> stupid.
>
>
 --
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 Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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 .
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>>>
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>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Scott Henry]

I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.
I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not to
like it.

A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding
anything.

And personally, I like obnoxious women.
Scott





On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:

> Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.
>
> As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you
> complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)
>
> Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.
>
> I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one
> seat post break.
>
> Haven't broke the others yet
>
> I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.
>
> I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general..
> What's your excuse.
>
> Kelly
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Joe Bernard]

Uh, I have a problem with the CF fork because it's a shock-absorbing device 
attached to the front wheel that snaps if something goes wrong with it. It 
seems like a ridiculous application of the material to me. I'm less 
concerned about CF for the frame..the loads are spread out more, and a 
broken tube somewhere on it is less likely to put you on the ground. It's 
that long, thin lever on the front that worries me, and I'm more than 
entitled to worry about it. 
 
As for types of bikes, I have an aluminum modern go-fast, an aluminum MTB, 
and several steel Bridgestones in various stages of Rivendell-ism. They all 
have steel forks. You wanna hear about my Motobecane disk-brake road bike? 
Meet me at The Paceline. Talking about it here is off-topic.

On Friday, July 13, 2012 1:04:02 PM UTC-7, Skenry wrote:

> I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.  
> I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not to 
> like it.
>  
> A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding 
> anything.
>  
> And personally, I like obnoxious women.  
> Scott
>  
>  
>
>
>  
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:
>
>> Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.
>>
>> As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you 
>> complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)
>>
>> Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.
>>
>> I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one 
>> seat post break.
>>
>> Haven't broke the others yet
>>
>> I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.
>>
>> I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general.. 
>> What's your excuse.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>> --
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>>
>
On Friday, July 13, 2012 1:04:02 PM UTC-7, Skenry wrote:
>
> I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.  
> I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not to 
> like it.
>  
> A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding 
> anything.
>  
> And personally, I like obnoxious women.  
> Scott
>  
>  
>
>
>  
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:
>
>> Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.
>>
>> As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you 
>> complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)
>>
>> Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.
>>
>> I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one 
>> seat post break.
>>
>> Haven't broke the others yet
>>
>> I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.
>>
>> I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general.. 
>> What's your excuse.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Well we are all adults here and people can talk all the shit they want
about anything, CF, ALU, steel and yes even Rivendells and I doubt anyone
needs a shepherd so they don't start believing the "wrong" thing.  Unless
you make or sell CF rigs not sure why this is getting so personal.   I
doubt anyone is going to convert anyone else over to thier camp here
anyway.
On Jul 13, 2012 4:04 PM, "Scott Henry"  wrote:

> I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.
> I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not to
> like it.
>
> A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding
> anything.
>
> And personally, I like obnoxious women.
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:
>
>> Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.
>>
>> As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you
>> complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)
>>
>> Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.
>>
>> I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one
>> seat post break.
>>
>> Haven't broke the others yet
>>
>> I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.
>>
>> I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general..
>> What's your excuse.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[RJM]

I have a friend who had a carbon frame break (madone right at the bottom 
bracket, bike was unrideable, he was bummed), have witnessed a carbon fork 
break at speed (dude went away in an ambulance; frame and fork was toast. A 
stick in the road came up and took out both fork arms. The accident 
happened really fast and the rider had no time to stop the bike) and I have 
had a steel fork bend when I was trying to hop over a curb but didn't get 
it up enough.  I bent the fork back with my hands, rode the bike home that 
day and replaced the fork; Jamis Aurora.  
 
I have also had dented steel tubes, broken tubes, bent chainstays and 
broken crankarms. The only thing that put me on the ground from breaking 
was the crankarm, and that crash hurt and I had to get someone to pick me 
up.  The other stuff happened over time while riding, hitting trees while 
singletracking, crashing the bike and realizing the bike broke ect...  I 
can't remember a time where the bike did not get me home after that damage 
though.
 
On Friday, July 13, 2012 2:33:15 PM UTC-5, Skenry wrote:

> Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have only 
> met a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people 
> here post.   
>  
> I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but 
> ,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just 
> weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who only 
> consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old serrota 
> list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to 
> appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards the 
> faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, heavy, 
> comfort bicycles.
>  
> As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon frame/fork 
> break, fail or bend? 
> OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail?
>  
> As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of one 
> small type.
>  
> Scott Henry
> Dayton, OH
> come see me
>
>
>  
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:
>
>>  I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the 
>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>  Scott
>>  
>>  
>> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so 
>> condescending. 
>>
>>  On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>>
>>>  Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks 
>>> bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
>>> I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that 
>>> work 100% perfectly.
>>>  
>>> I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the 
>>> early 90s.
>>>  
>>> Guess how stupid that is.
>>>  
>>> I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the 
>>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>>  
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product 
 supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is 
 stupid.
  

>>> -- 
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>>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Scott: Here's some solidarity for you. I have owned four Rivs (3
customs, one Sam Hill) and still have the two later customs, both
fixed gears, one with fat (32 mm) tires, dynolight and rack, t'other a
stripper gofast (just did a brief hilly ride and it is FUN!). I do
agree with the other poster that, after all, this is a Riv list and so
a sort of focus is to be expected; but OTOH, there is more to Rivs
than high bars, shellac and fancy luggage: for me, the essence of
Rivendellianishness is not lugs, fancy paint or pretty luggage, but
**fit** and **handling** -- every time (and I've bleated about this
for, what, 15 years now -- I get back onto a Riv after riding some
other bike that I've decided is very, very nice, I re-experience
fit/handling Nirvana. All the better, sez I, if one of those Rivs is a
low (ish -- I'm 57) bar'd, skinny tired, stripped down gofast that,
dammit, climbs like nothing else!

Every group focused on a more or less common goal, theory or value
tends to become somewhat insular and exclusive and to "corral the
wagons" against outside opinions. That is true of this list; OTOH,
this list is, IMO, pretty mellow overall despite the occasional snark.

Patrick "my next quasi Rivendellianish bike is to be a carbon fibre ss
29er with 500 gram crabon fiber fork" Moore -- if only I had the
money!


On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
> Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have only met
> a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people here
> post.
>
> I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but
> ,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just
> weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who only
> consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old serrota
> list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to
> appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards the
> faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, heavy,
> comfort bicycles.
>
> As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon frame/fork
> break, fail or bend?
> OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail?
>
> As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of one
> small type.
>
> Scott Henry
> Dayton, OH
> come see me
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano 
> wrote:
>>
>> I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so
>> condescending.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
>>> bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
>>> I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that
>>> work 100% perfectly.
>>>
>>> I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the
>>> early 90s.
>>>
>>> Guess how stupid that is.
>>>
>>> I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard 
>>> wrote:

 I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
 supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
 stupid.

>>>
>>> --
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>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>>
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>
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-
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Forgot to add that I *have*& broken a steel fork but it let me down
gently, I have never ridden crabon fibre.


On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:49 PM, PATRICK MOORE  wrote:
> Scott: Here's some solidarity for you. I have owned four Rivs (3
> customs, one Sam Hill) and still have the two later customs, both
> fixed gears, one with fat (32 mm) tires, dynolight and rack, t'other a
> stripper gofast (just did a brief hilly ride and it is FUN!). I do
> agree with the other poster that, after all, this is a Riv list and so
> a sort of focus is to be expected; but OTOH, there is more to Rivs
> than high bars, shellac and fancy luggage: for me, the essence of
> Rivendellianishness is not lugs, fancy paint or pretty luggage, but
> **fit** and **handling** -- every time (and I've bleated about this
> for, what, 15 years now -- I get back onto a Riv after riding some
> other bike that I've decided is very, very nice, I re-experience
> fit/handling Nirvana. All the better, sez I, if one of those Rivs is a
> low (ish -- I'm 57) bar'd, skinny tired, stripped down gofast that,
> dammit, climbs like nothing else!
>
> Every group focused on a more or less common goal, theory or value
> tends to become somewhat insular and exclusive and to "corral the
> wagons" against outside opinions. That is true of this list; OTOH,
> this list is, IMO, pretty mellow overall despite the occasional snark.
>
> Patrick "my next quasi Rivendellianish bike is to be a carbon fibre ss
> 29er with 500 gram crabon fiber fork" Moore -- if only I had the
> money!
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>> Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have only met
>> a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people here
>> post.
>>
>> I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but
>> ,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just
>> weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who only
>> consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old serrota
>> list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to
>> appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards the
>> faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, heavy,
>> comfort bicycles.
>>
>> As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon frame/fork
>> break, fail or bend?
>> OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail?
>>
>> As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of one
>> small type.
>>
>> Scott Henry
>> Dayton, OH
>> come see me
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the
>>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so
>>> condescending.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:

 Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks
 bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued.
 I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other that
 work 100% perfectly.

 I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in the
 early 90s.

 Guess how stupid that is.

 I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink the
 koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both.

 Scott





 On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard 
 wrote:
>
> I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any product
> supporting the front wheel of a bicycle which snaps instead of bending is
> stupid.
>

 --
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Mojo]

I have friend that had her carbon fork collapse on a long steady descent. She 
augered her face into the pavement. Her hands were completely uninjured, that's 
how fast it happened. She has partial use of her hands now but not enough to 
roll her wheel chair. Small probability, huge consequences. Everyone makes 
their choices & lives with the decisions. I will never ride a carbon fork.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Every type of part or frame that can be used to make or accessorize a 
bicycle can break. As my mechanic Mongo says, bikes are a wear item. Even 
things made of lugged steel break more often than some here might believe. 
I have never been impressed by CF, mostly because it doesn't fit my 
personality on various levels. But I don't believe that riding a bike with 
a carbon fork is statistically more stupid/dangerous than riding a bike in 
general. If I crash hard or get hit by a car, the material that comprises 
my frame and fork is likely the least of my concerns. Of all the risk of 
riding a bike, having my fork snap off is pretty far down the list.

Ride whatever type of bike you like, and be sensible about basic safety, 
and you will probably be ok. The types of bikes I like are steel and have 
fat tires and lots of threaded holes in various handy locations.

On Friday, July 13, 2012 4:51:46 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Forgot to add that I *have*& broken a steel fork but it let me down 
> gently, I have never ridden crabon fibre. 
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:49 PM, PATRICK MOORE  
> wrote: 
> > Scott: Here's some solidarity for you. I have owned four Rivs (3 
> > customs, one Sam Hill) and still have the two later customs, both 
> > fixed gears, one with fat (32 mm) tires, dynolight and rack, t'other a 
> > stripper gofast (just did a brief hilly ride and it is FUN!). I do 
> > agree with the other poster that, after all, this is a Riv list and so 
> > a sort of focus is to be expected; but OTOH, there is more to Rivs 
> > than high bars, shellac and fancy luggage: for me, the essence of 
> > Rivendellianishness is not lugs, fancy paint or pretty luggage, but 
> > **fit** and **handling** -- every time (and I've bleated about this 
> > for, what, 15 years now -- I get back onto a Riv after riding some 
> > other bike that I've decided is very, very nice, I re-experience 
> > fit/handling Nirvana. All the better, sez I, if one of those Rivs is a 
> > low (ish -- I'm 57) bar'd, skinny tired, stripped down gofast that, 
> > dammit, climbs like nothing else! 
> > 
> > Every group focused on a more or less common goal, theory or value 
> > tends to become somewhat insular and exclusive and to "corral the 
> > wagons" against outside opinions. That is true of this list; OTOH, 
> > this list is, IMO, pretty mellow overall despite the occasional snark. 
> > 
> > Patrick "my next quasi Rivendellianish bike is to be a carbon fibre ss 
> > 29er with 500 gram crabon fiber fork" Moore -- if only I had the 
> > money! 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Scott Henry  wrote: 
> >> Nope, I don't personally know too many people on this list.  I have 
> only met 
> >> a few so personally so I have to judge the group based upon what people 
> here 
> >> post. 
> >> 
> >> I'll say that without a doubt, there are many bicycling fans here but 
> >> ,OVERALL, the group is very focused only on one type of bike.  Its just 
> >> weird to me that here and on the iBob list there are many people who 
> only 
> >> consider bicycles that fit into the Riv stereotype.  Now on the old 
> serrota 
> >> list (now The Paceline Forum) and even on velocipede salon they tend to 
> >> appriciate all bikes.  Those two groups most definately cater towards 
> the 
> >> faster crowd but they also apreciate and enjoy the Riv type of slow, 
> heavy, 
> >> comfort bicycles. 
> >> 
> >> As for what started my intial post, who here has had a carbon 
> frame/fork 
> >> break, fail or bend? 
> >> OK, now who here has had a steel frame/fork break, bend or fail? 
> >> 
> >> As for me, I will keep riding all types of bicycles not just those of 
> one 
> >> small type. 
> >> 
> >> Scott Henry 
> >> Dayton, OH 
> >> come see me 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Peter Morgano  
>
> >> wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>> I like bikes. It just seems around here that you can either drink the 
> >>> koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both. 
> >>> Scott 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Its like you know us...oh wait, you don't.  So stop being so 
> >>> condescending. 
> >>> 
> >>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Scott Henry  
> wrote: 
>  
>  Well, If thats how you are measuring things, i've had two steel froks 
>  bend.  One aluminum fork come unglued. 
>  I've never had a carbon fork bend, break, snap or do anything other 
> that 
>  work 100% perfectly. 
>  
>  I've had plenty of all three type going back to my first EMS fork in 
> the 
>  early 90s. 
>  
>  Guess how stupid that is. 
>  
>  I like bikes.  It just seems around here that you can either drink 
> the 
>  koolaid or enjoy bikes, very few of you can seemingly do both. 
>  
>  Scott 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Joe Bernard  
>  wrote: 
> > 
> > I make no apologies for my "divisiveness" about CF forks. Any 
> product 
> > supporting t

Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[erik jensen]

this thread started before i left to ride my atlantis across the cascades
and elsewhere, and i return to see it continues. that's funny!

anyone who has read this list always knows that there are always going to
be people who pop in to troll or otherwise; posts of the sort "look at me,
i like ALL bikes why don't you you ignoramus."

But it doesn't really work that way, this is a place where people who want
to talk about lugged bikes will. Like every place on the internet, people
will always want to come in and yell about how that place doesn't really
get it, as we may be tempted to otherwise. I subscribe, as there are also
some really good ride reports that come up, but I bit my keyboarding tongue
a lot about a whole variety of things. I think people like to make up
stories about so and so having ideology x, y or z, because it's just easier
that way. It happens on this list, it happens to all sorts of people with
any sort of recognition, it's terribly easy and terribly boring--human, all
too human, right?

I really wish the biggest problem worth discussion was that us mean
rivendell list members were dissuading significant portions of the public
from riding bicycles made of carbon fiber, but I bet you can count the
number of times that happens every year without trying too hard. That said,
the rhetoric is really bias the other way. This isn't a debate between two
equal sides in other words, and so don't construe peoples energy and love
of a niche group to be conflated with koolaid or ideology as much as it is
with embracing and pursuing an approach they probably have very little of
in the place they live. I lived in Omaha, NE, for some time--how many
rivendells are there? I know of 2, maybe?

I recommend anyone engaged by a two week long argument on the internet step
outside and remember we live on a fragile rock hurtling through the
enormity of an infinite cosmos.

It's not what you have or say, but it's what you do.

What have all the posters in this thread been doing? I'd much rather hear
about that.

Ride on,

erik

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:

> I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.
> I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not to
> like it.
>
> A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding
> anything.
>
> And personally, I like obnoxious women.
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:
>
>> Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.
>>
>> As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you
>> complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)
>>
>> Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.
>>
>> I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one
>> seat post break.
>>
>> Haven't broke the others yet
>>
>> I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.
>>
>> I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general..
>> What's your excuse.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>> --
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-- 
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bikenoir.blogspot.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Peter Morgano]

Agreed, shame it is an Ozone alert and pea soup humidity in NYC which made
riding tonight crappy, wasnt worth taking pics since they would have been
hazed over anyway. I remembered Grant's advice to not beat  yourself up
about not riding as much as you might want and headed home halfway through
to sit inside and not sweat everywhere, haha. Here is hoping for some rain
to break this humidity!

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:28 AM, erik jensen  wrote:

> this thread started before i left to ride my atlantis across the cascades
> and elsewhere, and i return to see it continues. that's funny!
>
> anyone who has read this list always knows that there are always going to
> be people who pop in to troll or otherwise; posts of the sort "look at me,
> i like ALL bikes why don't you you ignoramus."
>
> But it doesn't really work that way, this is a place where people who want
> to talk about lugged bikes will. Like every place on the internet, people
> will always want to come in and yell about how that place doesn't really
> get it, as we may be tempted to otherwise. I subscribe, as there are also
> some really good ride reports that come up, but I bit my keyboarding tongue
> a lot about a whole variety of things. I think people like to make up
> stories about so and so having ideology x, y or z, because it's just easier
> that way. It happens on this list, it happens to all sorts of people with
> any sort of recognition, it's terribly easy and terribly boring--human, all
> too human, right?
>
> I really wish the biggest problem worth discussion was that us mean
> rivendell list members were dissuading significant portions of the public
> from riding bicycles made of carbon fiber, but I bet you can count the
> number of times that happens every year without trying too hard. That said,
> the rhetoric is really bias the other way. This isn't a debate between two
> equal sides in other words, and so don't construe peoples energy and love
> of a niche group to be conflated with koolaid or ideology as much as it is
> with embracing and pursuing an approach they probably have very little of
> in the place they live. I lived in Omaha, NE, for some time--how many
> rivendells are there? I know of 2, maybe?
>
> I recommend anyone engaged by a two week long argument on the internet
> step outside and remember we live on a fragile rock hurtling through the
> enormity of an infinite cosmos.
>
> It's not what you have or say, but it's what you do.
>
> What have all the posters in this thread been doing? I'd much rather hear
> about that.
>
> Ride on,
>
> erik
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>
>> I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.
>> I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not to
>> like it.
>>
>> A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding
>> anything.
>>
>> And personally, I like obnoxious women.
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.
>>>
>>> As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you
>>> complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)
>>>
>>> Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.
>>>
>>> I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems, one
>>> seat post break.
>>>
>>> Haven't broke the others yet
>>>
>>> I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.
>>>
>>> I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general..
>>> What's your excuse.
>>>
>>> Kelly
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/kqbSXfogzrsJ.
>>>
>>>  To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
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>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
> --
> oakland, ca
> bikenoir.blogspot.com
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[erik jensen]

i'm one of the lucky ones out west i think, but i gotta say it was pure
suffering making it across the valley between the cascades and the ocean
range in oregon. s hot, and even then just 95 degrees or so. i put my
head down and got through there in one day rather than stick around for
multiple days of that sickly too-hot feeling. i was wearing wool leggings
because i had gotten sunburned when i feel asleep on the rim of crater lake
the day before and wanted to cover up, one suffering for another!

e

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

> Agreed, shame it is an Ozone alert and pea soup humidity in NYC which made
> riding tonight crappy, wasnt worth taking pics since they would have been
> hazed over anyway. I remembered Grant's advice to not beat  yourself up
> about not riding as much as you might want and headed home halfway through
> to sit inside and not sweat everywhere, haha. Here is hoping for some rain
> to break this humidity!
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:28 AM, erik jensen wrote:
>
>> this thread started before i left to ride my atlantis across the cascades
>> and elsewhere, and i return to see it continues. that's funny!
>>
>> anyone who has read this list always knows that there are always going to
>> be people who pop in to troll or otherwise; posts of the sort "look at me,
>> i like ALL bikes why don't you you ignoramus."
>>
>> But it doesn't really work that way, this is a place where people who
>> want to talk about lugged bikes will. Like every place on the internet,
>> people will always want to come in and yell about how that place doesn't
>> really get it, as we may be tempted to otherwise. I subscribe, as there are
>> also some really good ride reports that come up, but I bit my keyboarding
>> tongue a lot about a whole variety of things. I think people like to make
>> up stories about so and so having ideology x, y or z, because it's just
>> easier that way. It happens on this list, it happens to all sorts of people
>> with any sort of recognition, it's terribly easy and terribly
>> boring--human, all too human, right?
>>
>> I really wish the biggest problem worth discussion was that us mean
>> rivendell list members were dissuading significant portions of the public
>> from riding bicycles made of carbon fiber, but I bet you can count the
>> number of times that happens every year without trying too hard. That said,
>> the rhetoric is really bias the other way. This isn't a debate between two
>> equal sides in other words, and so don't construe peoples energy and love
>> of a niche group to be conflated with koolaid or ideology as much as it is
>> with embracing and pursuing an approach they probably have very little of
>> in the place they live. I lived in Omaha, NE, for some time--how many
>> rivendells are there? I know of 2, maybe?
>>
>> I recommend anyone engaged by a two week long argument on the internet
>> step outside and remember we live on a fragile rock hurtling through the
>> enormity of an infinite cosmos.
>>
>> It's not what you have or say, but it's what you do.
>>
>> What have all the posters in this thread been doing? I'd much rather hear
>> about that.
>>
>> Ride on,
>>
>> erik
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Scott Henry  wrote:
>>
>>> I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.
>>> I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you not
>>> to like it.
>>>
>>> A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of riding
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> And personally, I like obnoxious women.
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly  wrote:
>>>
 Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.

 As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So do you
 complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.  Probably.. :)

 Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum, and carbon.

 I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon stems,
 one seat post break.

 Haven't broke the others yet

 I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it fails.

 I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in general..
 What's your excuse.

 Kelly

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[RJM]

Well, since you asked...
 
I spent last night replacing my 7cm Nitto Tech stem for a 9cm Nitto lugged 
stem, first ride with the new setup is this morning.  Yay!
 

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:28:04 AM UTC-5, bicyc...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
>  
> *What have all the posters in this thread been doing? I'd much rather 
> hear about that.*
>
> Ride on,
>
> erik
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Scott Henry]

>
> Just to keep every happy, I rode my quickbeam today.   Sitting at
> Starbucks right now and it's leaning against the window.


Scott

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Dave]

Thanks Eric!  I was tempted to write something similar, but you nailed 
it.  I really dislike seeing this sort of persistent digression over 
such a long time, but it think it is almost unavoidable.  I refer to 
this process as "Thread Entropy".  It starts with "OT drift", which 
opens the door to all manner of free association.  This group is better 
than most at remaining civil and on-topic, but it still happens.  In a 
perfect world, or at least a minimally moderated forum, everyone would 
actually read the subject line before writing.  This one has gotten away 
with major drift under the auspices of "Grant started it by writing a 
book", which is a pretty thin justification for the direction it's gone.


I'd recommend we put this horse back in the barn and start something else.

Dave

On 7/13/2012 10:28 PM, erik jensen wrote:
this thread started before i left to ride my atlantis across the 
cascades and elsewhere, and i return to see it continues. that's funny!


anyone who has read this list always knows that there are always going 
to be people who pop in to troll or otherwise; posts of the sort "look 
at me, i like ALL bikes why don't you you ignoramus."


But it doesn't really work that way, this is a place where people who 
want to talk about lugged bikes will. Like every place on the 
internet, people will always want to come in and yell about how that 
place doesn't really get it, as we may be tempted to otherwise. I 
subscribe, as there are also some really good ride reports that come 
up, but I bit my keyboarding tongue a lot about a whole variety of 
things. I think people like to make up stories about so and so having 
ideology x, y or z, because it's just easier that way. It happens on 
this list, it happens to all sorts of people with any sort of 
recognition, it's terribly easy and terribly boring--human, all too 
human, right?


I really wish the biggest problem worth discussion was that us mean 
rivendell list members were dissuading significant portions of the 
public from riding bicycles made of carbon fiber, but I bet you can 
count the number of times that happens every year without trying too 
hard. That said, the rhetoric is really bias the other way. This isn't 
a debate between two equal sides in other words, and so don't construe 
peoples energy and love of a niche group to be conflated with koolaid 
or ideology as much as it is with embracing and pursuing an approach 
they probably have very little of in the place they live. I lived in 
Omaha, NE, for some time--how many rivendells are there? I know of 2, 
maybe?


I recommend anyone engaged by a two week long argument on the internet 
step outside and remember we live on a fragile rock hurtling through 
the enormity of an infinite cosmos.


It's not what you have or say, but it's what you do.

What have all the posters in this thread been doing? I'd much rather 
hear about that.


Ride on,

erik

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Scott Henry > wrote:


I have no problems talking about Rivs, I do it routinely.
I have a problem talking bad about carbon because someone told you
not to like it.
A bike is a bike.  Ride them all.   Don't talk anyone out of
riding anything.
And personally, I like obnoxious women.
Scott


On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Kelly mailto:tkslee...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Not sure where you got slow comfort bikes from.

As for talking about rivs.. It is the Rivendell group ...  So
do you complain on the Ford group that they don't like Chevys.
 Probably.. :)

Actually I have many bikes in the garage... Steel aluminum,
and carbon.

I've had two carbon frames break, one carbon fork, two carbon
stems, one seat post break.

Haven't broke the others yet

I am not afraid to ride carbon , just not fond of the way it
fails.

I'm an obnoxious opinionated jerk.. And blame it on women in
general.. What's your excuse.

Kelly

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Re: [RBW] Re: Review of "Just Ride."

[Steven Frederick]

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:28 AM, erik jensen  wrote:

> this thread started before i left to ride my atlantis across the cascades
> and elsewhere, and i return to see it continues...
>
> ...What have all the posters in this thread been doing? I'd much rather
> hear about that.
>
> Ride on,
>
> erik
>


Well, since you asked, Erik, and since I started this thread (with the best
of intentions, too!) I'll offer that I've been riding, though not as much
or in the way I'd prefer.  I'm dealing with a herniated disc in my neck and
it put me off the bike for a while but now I'm okay to ride so long as I
"take it easy."  I bought a used recumbent to try.  It's actually kind of
fun, and I think I'll keep it for change of pace rides even after my neck
heals up!  I also re-riv'd the fit of a couple of my upright bikes, raising
the bars a couple of cm's above the saddle to ease strain on my shoulders
and neck and that's worked out well so far.

It's a gradual healing process--evidently, assuming I don't re-injure or
irritate it, it will take 4-6 months (first symptoms serious enough to seek
medical help were in early May though I think this has been coming on even
longer) for it to heal and it will leave me slightly more prone to such
injuries in the future.  Thrilled I ain't--heck, I'm just now drawing a
bead on 50 and I've got a lot more years and miles of riding I want to do!

So, no biking holidays or long trips for me this year--easy rides around
home and time to reflect on the fragility of life and health over a beer or
three instead...

Here's my 'bent if anyone is curious--on topic only because it let me keep
riding when even my Rambouillet was temporarily uncomfortable...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40738390@N08/7421489358/in/photostream

Steve

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