jeffluckett;142481 Wrote:
Well, really it is part art, and part science.
Nope, still don't agree. It's part science and part economics. It's a
cost compromise and therefore you design a speaker or other component
based on your own personal set of distortion preferences. You audition
it at home
CardinalFang;142489 Wrote:
Nope, still don't agree. It's part science and part economics. It's a
cost compromise and therefore you design a speaker or other component
based on your own personal set of distortion preferences. You audition
it at home to see if those compromises will work in
rajacat;142485 Wrote:
Do you consider yourself an engineer or a scientist?
If it can't be measured with state of the art equipment, does it exist?
We shouldn't ignore history and how most breakthroughs were by people
that were pushing the limits and ignoring contemporary biases. Who
knows,
rajacat;142490 Wrote:
Spoken like a true engineer!
So pick apart my argument. Argue reasonably, unemotionally and
coherently on the fallacies in my statements.
And please not the all things haven't been invented yet argument - it
is specious and distracting from a resonable debate on what
jeffluckett;142452 Wrote:
This reminds me of when Bose sued Consumer Reports ...
As I recall, the court case came down to Consumer Reports having said
that the sound wandered around the room, while Bose claimed they
should have said the sound wandered along the wall. The case was
decided in
CardinalFang;142497 Wrote:
So pick apart my argument. Argue reasonably, unemotionally and
coherently on the fallacies in my statements.
And please not the all things haven't been invented yet argument - it
is specious and distracting from a resonable debate on what compromises
audio
P Floding;142507 Wrote:
We don't need mumbo-jumbo scientific explanations to explain the
differences we hear, but we do need even scientific people to
acknowledge that we are far from done when it comes to sound
reproduction.
But we do have the means to do it, it would just be
CardinalFang;142516 Wrote:
But we do have the means to do it, it would just be prohibitively
expensive! Think of the measuring gear used in military listening
devices or all manner of scientific measuring equipment in physics labs
that require incredible fidelity. They cost billions to
P Floding;142522 Wrote:
I actually think we are pretty far from there, even if money is no
object. Transducers aren't good enough.
ok, if money no object inludes the end user's listening environment i
suppose we can get pretty close. But to manage it in a typical home
setting, i don't
CardinalFang;142524 Wrote:
And then we'd have to modify all recording techniques so no compression
or other studio trickery was used as well.
We'll never get real because we're trying to faithfully reproduce a
recording, not a live experience.
I'm not saying that we can create perfect
rajacat;142485 Wrote:
We shouldn't ignore history and how most breakthroughs were by people
that were pushing the limits and ignoring contemporary biases. Raja
This is the hollywood version of how things get invented. The reality
is that invention almost always comes as small changes to
If the subjectivity in audio systems design results exclusively from
economic choices, why hasn't someone invented the cost-no-object
perfect audio reproduction system?
I don't believe that we understand everything we will one day
understand about acoustical / audio science theory or
joncourage wrote:
If the subjectivity in audio systems design results exclusively from
economic choices, why hasn't someone invented the cost-no-object
perfect audio reproduction system?
No one, not even Bill Gates or Warren Buffet has that much money.
Plus, you'd have to design the room
joncourage;142618 Wrote:
If the subjectivity in audio systems design results exclusively from
economic choices, why hasn't someone invented the cost-no-object
perfect audio reproduction system?
Probably because the weak spots in the reproduction chain are based on
deeply flawed designs, like
CardinalFang;142636 Wrote:
The problem is trying to come up with new designs to correct the
imperfections and my suggestion is that measuring what happens every
time you make a change is pretty darn useful rather than relying on
perception which varies depending on your mood or caffeine
P Floding;142640 Wrote:
I agree, but most people do not have access to equipment to do this. Or
the knowledge to use such equipment. There is even a lack of
established methods to do this, apart from at the various electrical
interfaces.
It is a lot easier than you think. A decent FFT
seanadams;142642 Wrote:
It is a lot easier than you think. A decent FFT program and a quality
PC sound card will give you nearly everything you need to test
incremental improvements to audio circuits.
If you have some clue how the circuit works, then you should know how
to use those
P Floding;142644 Wrote:
Seems I forgot to write the most important part: Measurements at the
listening position.
OK I'm with you there.
I'm not quite sure who you accuse of being a fool for soldering in your
design? Sounds pretty weird to accuse anyone who have bought your stuff
for
seanadams;142647 Wrote:
OK I'm with you there.
Maybe that was a bit harsh. I didn't mean to diminish anyone's fun in
doing whatever they please with their equipment, and to be clear, I was
referring to ANY design, not specifically mine.
The point is, if you have no idea how the
seanadams;142647 Wrote:
OK I'm with you there.
Maybe that was a bit harsh. I didn't mean to diminish anyone's fun in
doing whatever they please with their equipment, and to be clear, I was
referring to ANY design, not specifically mine.
The point is, if you have no idea how the
jhm731 wrote:
On another forum, there's a post by someone who ordered two
Transporters and had them shipped directly to his favorite
modifier.
I'm sure this modifier will take time to listen to the stock units,
take measurements and understand how the circuit works before making
any changes.
There's something that often seems to get lost in these discussions of
perfect audio reproduction - namely what exactly is meant by that in
the first place. If the musicians came into your listening room and
performed, what you would hear would not be the same as what the sound
engineer in the
Well, here we go...
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=SDTransporterCategory_Code=MODSProduct_Count=44
Interesting that in LESS THAN ONE WEEK, these gurus have already
out-engineered Sean et al!
--
sleepysurf
squeezebox2 (with elpac linear psu)
Is it even worth saying that this was probably mapped out before the
Transporter even shipped? Nifty order page, pictures, and all? Like,
they had time to completely dissect and understand the unit, come up
with packages (that, of course, cost nearly as much as the unit itself)
in high price
highdudgeon;142674 Wrote:
Is it even worth saying that this was probably mapped out before the
Transporter even shipped? Nifty order page, pictures, and all? Like,
they had time to completely dissect and understand the unit, come up
with packages (that, of course, cost nearly as much as
Why complain, you are not required to buy the mod? This is a
capitalistic country and there will always be someone looking to make a
honest buck or find a sucker.
--
rajacat
rajacat's Profile:
rajacat;142681 Wrote:
Why complain, you are not required to buy the mod? This is a
capitalistic country and there will always be someone looking to make a
honest buck or find a sucker.
Honest buck? I don't think so. And if you think that's OK, I
suggest you read The Jungle by Upton
highdudgeon;142674 Wrote:
Is it even worth saying that this was probably mapped out before the
Transporter even shipped? Nifty order page, pictures, and all? Like,
they had time to completely dissect and understand the unit, come up
with packages (that, of course, cost nearly as much as
what a fascinating thread. The only problem is the time it it takes away
from listening to music.or
practicing. :-)
--
tomjtx
tomjtx's Profile:
tomjtx;142696 Wrote:
what a fascinating thread. The only problem is the time it it takes away
from listening to music.or
practicing. :-)
A pointless thread, all begins with people thrashing things that they
have never listened to, imposing their own
95bcwh;142702 Wrote:
A pointless thread, all begins with people thrashing things that they
have never listened to, imposing their own egoistic viewpoint, their
self-perceived sense of superiority and expect the rest of the world to
follow.
just a for-instance now, upon reading the
joncourage;142709 Wrote:
And, it'll make your wife's boobies look like they did when she was 19.
Who needs a wife when you've got X-Fi?
--
opaqueice
opaqueice's Profile:
95bcwh;142702 Wrote:
...why are we still using tubes today?
Tonto had a really great answer to that one.
--
andy_c
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread:
Look how one bullheaded person can get us all riled up. Seems my
original impression of Mr. High was correct. I couldnt believe he is
actually saying that the current suite of measures measures everything
there is to measure? How irrational can you get, especially for one
always grasping for
95bcwh;141895 Wrote:
rajacat,
I was not quoting you.. look at my message again, I was quoting him.
peace.
My mistake,
peace
--
rajacat
rajacat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4156
View
highdudgeon wrote:
Correction: physics and engineering can explain the whole lot. If you
don't understand that, the the problem is with you.
Correction: there are many, many phenomena in this world that science
does not understand. Please don't suggest I have a problem for holding
an opinion
highdudgeon wrote:
Third, the burden IS -- really IS -- on the modder to provide technical
and scientific evidence. Sorry, but numbers don't lie. Some people do
have bad ears, though, and prefer equipment that is euphonic, not
neutral, or whatever.
*penny drops*
Ah, I get it now.
Hey this thread got fun all of a sudden :)
Robin Bowes;141920 Wrote:
highdudgeon wrote:
Correction: physics and engineering can explain the whole lot. If
you
don't understand that, the the problem is with you.
Correction: there are many, many phenomena in this world that science
does
In the field of particle physics there are many indeterminates.
Quarks, leptons, mesons and other subatomic particles influence our
lives but measuring them or even determining where they are at a given
moment is very difficult if not impossible. Most likely these minute
pieces of matter have an
That should drive the final nail in this coffin!
Any time someone posts something about quantum mechanics or sub atomic
particles and relates it to audio you know the thread has come to an
end. What else can anyone say when the irrationality has climbed to
such an extraordinary level?
Thank
tyler_durden wrote:
That should drive the final nail in this coffin!
Any time someone posts something about quantum mechanics or sub atomic
particles and relates it to audio you know the thread has come to an
end. What else can anyone say when the irrationality has climbed to
such an
I had to chime in. This is because I actually studied physics in
graduate school.
This is one of the worst mistatements and misunderstandings of
scientific anything that I have ever read.
Sure, neutrinos bomb us all the time. By the billions. However, the
measurements we take in everyday
tyler_durden;142063 Wrote:
That should drive the final nail in this coffin!
Any time someone posts something about quantum mechanics or sub atomic
particles and relates it to audio you know the thread has come to an
end. What else can anyone say when the irrationality has climbed to
such
I read this thread with eyes wide open - not sure what the big fuss is
about.
I dont make sell or mod equipment - but i do buy lots of it.
I have owned an SB1, SB2 ,SB3, Bolder modded SB2 with seperate power
supply, a extrnal cow dac for the SB1, and finally a TRANSPORTER
I run these all with
Everything we know is only some kind of approximation, because we know
that we do not know all the laws as yet. Therefore, things must be
learned only to be unlearned again or, more likely, to be corrected.
--from Six Easy Pieces
Richard P. Feynman
--
joncourage
joncourage;142217 Wrote:
Everything we know is only some kind of approximation, because we know
that we do not know all the laws as yet. Therefore, things must be
learned only to be unlearned again or, more likely, to be corrected.
--from Six Easy Pieces
Richard P. Feynman
Your quote of
It is so hard -- so hard -- for an actual scientist to read this.
Regarding the quotation above: of course, it is a good, if in some
points debatable, take on the history of science. However, some things
are simply true: the Moon goes around the Earth, the Earth goes around
the Sun, 2+2=four,
highdudgeon;142235 Wrote:
As a poster in another thread pointed out, perhaps you might be
interested in this product:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=NOB_C37_CCategory_Code=VOLUMEProduct_Count=2
It is expensive, how it works is a mystery,
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of
in your philosophy.
- Billy S. c 1601
--
joncourage
joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837
View this thread:
joncourage;142244 Wrote:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of
in your philosophy.
- Billy S. c 1601
A witty saying proves nothing.
- Voltaire
;-)
--
jacobdp
jacobdp's Profile:
Far from the modding crowd's ignoble strife
Their sober wishes never learn'd to stray;
Along the cool sequester'd vale of life
They kept the noiseless tenor of their way.
Thomas Grey 1751
--
konut
konut's Profile:
beautiful...
And, I think, this is where this thread will taper off...
jacobdp;142248 Wrote:
A witty saying proves nothing.
- Voltaire
;-)
--
highdudgeon
highdudgeon's Profile:
To attempt to measure bliss is to dip a rose in resin.
Rajacat
October 2006
--
rajacat
rajacat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4156
View this thread:
rajacat;142056 Wrote:
In the field of particle physics there are many indeterminates.
Quarks, leptons, mesons and other subatomic particles influence our
lives but measuring them or even determining where they are at a given
moment is very difficult if not impossible. Most likely these
highdudgeon;142235 Wrote:
=As a poster in another thread pointed out, perhaps you might be
interested in this product:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=NOB_C37_CCategory_Code=VOLUMEProduct_Count=2
It is expensive, how it works is a mystery,
The kitty growled when he spied the sourpusses.
Rajacat
October 2006
--
rajacat
rajacat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4156
View this thread:
First off, let me apologize for using the words sad and whatever in
refering to HighD's original post. It was a reaction to tone. And as
I read your following posts, High, I found much that I agreed with
(someone else said the same thing). That got me re-thinking a scheme I
posted on a few
Those that separate the world into two kinds of people; and those that
don't.
My favorite, I couldn't resist.
--
atkinsonrr
atkinsonrr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7214
View this thread:
highdudgeon;141550 Wrote:
Oy indeed! Numbers don't lie.
... they just don't always tell the whole truth.
FWIW, I and a number of my customers have been running SBs directly
into power amplifiers for over a year now, without a single failure of
Speaker, Amp or SB.
--
Patrick Dixon
andy_c;141548 Wrote:
One does not need to -believe- in measurable improvements. One only
needs to present the data. I haven't seen one piece of data, not one
shred of evidence, to support any of the claims for the Bybee devices.
Ok, I wrote it wrong. He claims there are measureable
Precisely.
And, there's the tricky things about mods: a lot of brainpower,
collective effort, and resources goes into planning these products.
Concessions are made to cost, naturally, but collective planning and
experience go a long way toward the final product. Do you really
suppose that one
Right. And precisely against Sean's advice. Sean has no vested
interest here. He could hype the SB and tell you that you no longer
need outside analog attenuation. But he doesn't do that. Why?
Because there are technical reasons why: 1) you could have a failure
and that would be a problem.
Sean's an engineer, I'm an engineer (degree-qualified, Chartered,
time-served etc, etc). If that is what he said then I think we're
allowed to disagree without it being a big deal.
So what am I not being objective about here? I'm simply posting a fact
about my real experience in using the
Amusing thread. Just thought I'd post this so that dudge would have to
reply again just to have the last word. :-) - Pat
--
tubesguy
tubesguy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1703
View this
highdudgeon;141669 Wrote:
Do you really suppose that one guy in a shed is going to improve it in a
significant way? Iguess that depends on the guy. A lot of great things
started in sheds
I think you'll find.
highdudgeon;141669 Wrote:
In the post I referred to, one of my
highdudgeon wrote:
2) they've been using considerable DIGITAL attenuation with an older
version of the software (the newer, as in this month version improves
things), which means they have been degrading their signal. Great.
Do you actually know what the issue was post-firmware 15? No? I
tubesguy;141711 Wrote:
Amusing thread. Just thought I'd post this so that dudge would have to
reply again just to have the last word. :-) - Pat
Great post!
--
jhm731
jhm731's Profile:
I guess that depends on the guy. A lot of great things started in sheds
I think you'll find.
Like Hewlett-Packard to name one high profile example. Naim audio
started similarly, Ivor Tiefenbrun's LP12 turntable started life in his
father's engineering company, as a one-off project.
In fact
I guess that depends on the guy. A lot of great things started in sheds
I think you'll find.
Like Hewlett-Packard to name one high profile example.
In fact many engineering companies start in very humble and low-profile
ways, whether they survive and grow is a good way top tell whether the
Here's my thoughts on mods...I think that pretty much any piece of gear
can be modded to deliver better performance than the stock unit,
because there is always a better part out there, or a better way of
designing something if you take away the constraint of a pricepoint (or
a safety constraint,
I understand the whole system design and integration thing to some
degree, but in a product design environment at least partly motivated
by economic considerations, I'm not sure why you'd (HD) think that
improvements couldn't be achieved by replacing components with higher
grade substitutes?
joncourage;141553 Wrote:
I still am not entirely sure what side of the if it isn't measurable it
can't make a difference debate I'm on
I don't think it is a question of being measurable in an absolute
sense. The thing is, equipment behaves quite differently depending on
what you hook up
P Floding;141792 Wrote:
I believe the industry needs to concentrate more on measuring equipment
in realistic settings.
Well, a measurement in realistic settings is measuring the setting,
not the equipment, no? Mark Levensin (the company) used to post
frequency response measurements from
PhilNYC;141803 Wrote:
Well, a measurement in realistic settings is measuring the setting,
not the equipment, no? Mark Levensin (the company) used to post
frequency response measurements from 1st refection points, and my dad
(a scientist) couldn't stop laughing, because there was no
P Floding;141808 Wrote:
I didn't mean measuring audio from loudspeakers. That is way to
complicated to get anything reproducable and comparable. Just the
normal electrically measurable parameters, but when everything is
hooked up and running.
I just disconnected my A/V section from my
jhm731;141822 Wrote:
Now try disconnecting the SB from your TacT 2.2x, and the CD sound will
improved massively.
Perhaps my analogue LP sound will improve, but I haven't bothered to
find out. My A/V cabling is about 4 meters long, so may well pick up
stuff. The TacT seems very sensitive to
highdudgeon;141235 Wrote:
Oh, I'm just not going to bother. I came across a hilarious post by a
modder -- one who sells these things -- informing the public about
the superiority of his SB2 with Bybee this and that to the Transport.
Heck, he even uses server v. 6.2.1 and firmware 13,
rajacat;141841 Wrote:
A Bolder modded SB3 was chosen to be one of the best source components
of 2006 by ENJOY THE MUSIC.
Maybe you should actually listen to Wayne's mods before you dis him!
'nuf said
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1006/bestof2006.htm
I'll say
PhilNYC;141844 Wrote:
I'll say this...I've got great respect for Wayne and his work, and he
seems like a terrific guy. However, I think his comparison of his SB3
mods vs. the Transporter would have had a little more credibility if he
had given his Transporter some time to break-in rather
highdudgeon wrote:
Patrick,
Let's see...you have a product to sell, right? So you're objective
about this?
Patrick is very objective. He doesn't sell or even particularly promote
his products on these forums.
You have a product that is, well, eclipsed by the
transporter?
Says who? The
13, 15, whatever. The point is, the current firmware is what works.
I wasn't going to post...but I got sort of pulled back in. Thanks for
the rude comment. We all like that.
Robin Bowes;141718 Wrote:
highdudgeon wrote:
2) they've been using considerable DIGITAL attenuation with an older
Yes, and, like I said, Wayne also sells $700 power cords. The Bay Area
Audiophile Society did a double-blind test of power cords -- it's on
the web -- and the group of audiophiles couldn't get more than a 50%
hit rate in determing expensive power cords from stanard IEC. Which,
by the way, is
Correction: physics and engineering can explain the whole lot. If you
don't understand that, the the problem is with you. Moreover, is
someone is making claims about his equipment, he should 1) provide
scientific test data or 2) send the gear to a serious reviewer who WILL
subject it to, and
highdudgeon;141868 Wrote:
Correction: physics and engineering can explain the whole lot. If you
don't understand that, the the problem is with you. Moreover, is
someone is making claims about his equipment, he should 1) provide
scientific test data or 2) send the gear to a serious reviewer
highdudgeon;141868 Wrote:
PS, I am really tired of the rudeness on this thread. Enough already.
Don't forget, you are the one that started this thread and thrashing
Wayne's product without even listening to it first.
Measurement doesn't tell the whole picture, I have done a test with two
I find this amazing. First of all, audio shows are NOT the place to do
comparisons. Hardly ideal situations. This is to the poster above.
Second, yes, I'm afraid, the burden IS on the modder to prove WHY
something is superior. Sorry, but anyone selling $700 power cords and
Bybee filters
highdudgeon;141880 Wrote:
I find this amazing. First of all, audio shows are NOT the place to do
comparisons. Hardly ideal situations. This is to the poster above.
Second, yes, I'm afraid, the burden IS on the modder to prove WHY
something is superior. Sorry, but anyone selling $700
You probably have bad ears too and need to have numbers to tell you if
it sounds good.
--
rajacat
rajacat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4156
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highdudgeon;141880 Wrote:
Some people do have bad ears, though, and prefer equipment that is
euphonic, not neutral, or whatever.
See? Another cheap shot.. some people do have bad ears.
WHO ARE YOU to make such a statement? Do you think you're GOD, that you
can tell if other people has
95bcwh;141888 Wrote:
See? Another cheap shot.. some people do have bad ears.
WHO ARE YOU to make such a statement? Do you think you're GOD, that you
can tell if other people has bad ears, and you have the perfect ears?
You have no moral high ground, next time, try harder.
Why don't you
Actually that modder is a very good guy with a good reputation. He has
done some work for me in the past on a different device and the
improvement was substantial. Now of course he may have a vested
interest in claiming his modded SB2 is superior, but that doesn't make
him wrong. He is a pretty
Is Mr. High saying that mods never work? That if it comes out of the
box that way it has to stay that way? Or that a lot of people dont
have alot of fun improving things with a bit of solder and capacitors,
op amps, wire, and their own creativity? Seems kinda uptight and
sad...
--
I'm not saying they never work -- of course not. I am saying that there
is a lot of hype and that many people get a case of audiophilia
nervosa and feel this need to attempt to squeeze every last bit of
performance out of their rig...regardless of price or reasonability.
Said modder goes on
highdudgeon;141235 Wrote:
Oh, I'm just not going to bother. I came across a hilarious post by a
modder -- one who sells these things -- informing the public about
the superiority of his SB2 with Bybee this and that to the Transport.
Heck, he even uses server v. 6.2.1 and firmware 13,
Ahem. I didn't flame anyone and did not, in turn, deserve rude
treatment.
If you buy and like the stuff, well, that's fine. I'm not stopping
you. People and like all kinds of things. In studies, half of
chronically depressed patients respond to placebos equally well as
those treated with
highdudgeon;141368 Wrote:
However, I have enough years of audio and physics experience to remain
fairly objective about these things.You come across as far from objective and
certainly not very open
minded. You also appear to have some kind of agenda ...
Why don't you just listen to some
Patrick,
Let's see...you have a product to sell, right? So you're objective
about this? You have a product that is, well, eclipsed by the
transporter? I think the burden is on you to prove, with numbers and
reasons, why your product is superior. Ditto for Bolder and the Bybee
stuff. I
FWIW Patrick has been on the forums for ages and has been consistantly
polite, wise and helpful. I am always astonished how little he makes of
his product - he usually just responds if asked for details. To portray
him merely as some kind of self interested salesman is ludicrous and
tends to
I read this same post comparing the Transporter to the modded SB2 and
PART of my reaction was suspicion. Because of course the modders have
a vested interest in saying their expensive mods make a marked
improvement.
But modders get a reputation over time, and this modder certainly has a
good
highdudgeon;141381 Wrote:
Is there any reason why you are on this forum other than to sell your
device?Err, yes - I was on this forum before I even developed the SB+, and my
point in being here is to contribute what and where I can to the
community here. I have also been helped and educated
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