Just received an event announcement from the SUNYBuffalo-based
"poetics list"; thought the description of one of the readers might
tickle and intrigue P2ers (well, except perhaps the Objectivists)...
* * *
Beth Murray began writing poetry after receiving
couple of questions:
RELS: The Ex and Tortoise,...
You mean together?
RELS: Hattifatteners (Syd Straw and Cat Power's Chan Marshall)
I thought the Hattifatteners were a God Is My Co-Pilot sideproject?
carl w.
hipsters
slackers
scenesters
bohos
playas
post-grads
middle-managers
... in the 90s there are no beatniks.
... in the 90s, everyone's a beatnik.
carl w.
Geez, why is this so difficult to get across?
As Dave wrote:
But given most people's busy schedules and abundant entertainment
choices, there's a good chance a lousy band (and it's not solely a
matter of chops or a lack thereof) *would* turn them off to roots
music for good. How many
As a footnote to our discussion, see the new issue of the Atlantic,
including an article arguing that Dylan changed pop music more than
any other single figure, "including Sinatra, Elvis or the Beatles."
(No mention of Der Bingle.)
Read and discuss (I haven't,
Tony - who once upon a time lived on a steady diet of the Germs,
Void, Discharge, Venom, Throbbing Gristle, SPK, James Chance and
the Contortions, Half Japanese, and a boatload of other noise.
Hurrah!
Oops, I meant to say: Tony, you male chauvinist pig you.
A little take on Rolling Stone's parlour game, for the Globe and Mail
in Toronto.
* * *
THE ESSENTIAL RECORDINGS OF THE '90s
by Greil Marcus et al
Rolling Stone, May 13
Reviewed by Carl Wilson
... In which Rolling Stone rushes to
The discussion here breaks down along the atomization of markets since
the mid80s, so it makes sense to say that Gill, Dre, Malkmus (Pavement
does make sense as the key 90s indie band, though only because they
democratized Sonic Youth's late-80s innovations) and the
Lance wrote:
I guess one of the inherent problems with discussing the Beasties as rap
artists is the amount of essentialism that must be chopped away before you
can discuss the music they create.
Indeed, which is why I wish they qualified as AOTDs to more than a
small
er, no comment except to say that the phrase "with Beck, Joe Henry and
Wilco doing what they're doing..." begs the Sesame Street response:
which of these things is not like the others? I would actually choose
Beck as one of the artists who's not been too "chickenshit" (to
more recently, they've morphed into "Bob Log III", where bob does a one
man show-playing slide guitar and kick drum with some drum loops here and
there. still sounds like doo rag. the motorcycle helment with the built
in telephone receiver/microphone has go to be seen to be believed.
I
Not to displace anything in David's definitive Top 4 -
(sideline: except that I'm not quite convinced we've covered soul
properly in the person of James Brown, whose influence vocally and
rhythmically is definitive for funk-disco-rap but not so much in the
more
A review of last night's show - with a tip o' the Hee-Haw straw hat to
David Cantwell for the illumination of the ELO emulations on Summer
Teeth.
Carl W.
* * *
WILCO WITH VIC CHESNUTT
at The Guvernment on Saturday
by CARL
this is appearing in greatly truncated form (cut in half, actually) in
tomorrow's paper; the director's cut to follow is a P2 exclusive... By
the way, Neal baby, none of the following is directed at you - your
take has seemed much more on-target than many I've read. CW
Neal wrote re: his attempt to explain "the Sparkle Boys":
The moral of this story: I forget that my circle of friends --
physical ones or those in e-mail form -- are a smidgen of a smidgen
of the population. The real world doesn't think the way we do.
Mm-hmm. This
Since we somehow have looped out into early80s land the past couple
days, I have a terminology question for the P2 Braintrust, re: a story
I'm editing: Who and what were the British "New Romantics" (which I've
sometimes seen spelled "Neuromantics")? I'm sort of vague on
... um, I meant what did Japan count *as*, not on. I assume, like all
of us, they counted on the kindness of strangers.
Carl W.
Someone's gonna have to say it, and better not-Jon than Jon:
JP, you completely misconstrued Weisberger's meaning here - it was an
inside-joking reference to Jon's long, untiring **defence** of the importance of
chops in country (and other) music. In other words, he agrees with you
completely.
(fluff/nitpickery warning)
Dave P: As a fan of Ms. Hockeysticks's coinage, Steve Earle is her
"future former husband," not former future husband (which would
signify a waning interest or a broken engagement...)
btw, when I mentioned this to a friend, she
Jeff Wallbanger wrote:
"If I am reviewing a disc, and I can find absolutely no redeeming
value, and I say that it sucks, is that not just my humble, or in my
case, not so fucking humble opinion?"
-- which generates a whole new internet catchphrase: IMNSFHO.
wanted briefly to respond to a few of Barry's comments:
I seemed to be the only one I could find anywhere who'd actually seen him
perform before--on the Penn campus in Philadelphia some 25 years ago,
Really? Nobody saw the Big Time tour? The Waits show was the first memorable
event
Mitch, just to keep things straight: if that was tonight (Saturday),
it was almost certainly RadioSonic, which (tho it can be ok) is a much
inferior program to the mighty Waves, whose reservoir of mandatory
cool is far too deep (nay, even obsessive) for parade-style
Slim wrote Wooohooo
Ok, just for that, smart guy - please do post extensive descriptions. The Waits
show the Flatlanders hook-up I'd really like to hear details on.
merci,
Carl, bereft in Toronto
PaulAmeritwang asks after Brent Bambury and Mitch remarks on "early-morning
news coverage" -- well, I don't know what time you get up, Mitch, but I don't
usually consider noon "early morning." Brent is the co-host of Midday, a
mostly inane CBC-TV chat and news lunchtime show; he
Evan's point is well-taken.
Mind you, these days I don't spend much time listening to the local
college stations, largely because too often I tune in to find people
rambling incoherently about politics or -- much worse -- a dj
"interviewing" a local musician
I simply have to apologize for writing a post that contains two
separate paragraphs beginning "Mind you..." Not enough coffee today,
perhaps. I'm not even shure what "mind you" means, come to think of
it...
Mind me,
Carl W.
Bob re: V-Roys in Toronto:
it has to meet the needs of a crowd that gets very little of that kind
of music. Maybe they batted .500 because they had to bend a little to
satisfy that crowd. And maybe the crowd wanted their roots loud,
straight-up, and danceable because few bands like that come
Tom wrote:
this Iggy thing has me all worked up. I've been listening to "The
Idiot" and "Lust for Life" since Sunday night...
One highlight from last night's V-Roys entertainment (pardon me but
I'm not going to know titles) - one song launched with a rousing
I have a mixed reaction to this - clearly the current backlash (which
I think has been accelerated by PazznJop and a couple of other
instances of high-profile folk like Christgau calling alt-country
"confining") is largely crap, and another case of Moronic Media Meme
I said of the V-Roys audience
the crowd was a really roadhouse-country-rock-lovin'
bunch, who wanted their roots as loud and straight-up and danceable as
possible.
And Dave P retorted:
Is that any different from people at a Metallica show not wanting to
hear Lars co sound like
Jon sez:
"even leaving aside the question of whether it's really a criticism to say
that a stylistic change includes a commercial motivation (in my book, it
ain't), from my perspective there's a healthy-sized difference between the
two characterizations."
I agree, Jon, but in the
Slonedog:
While a handful (and it is just a handful folks) of the songs on
"Summerteeth" (which I think is brilliant) do owe a debt to "Pet Sounds", I
don't think either "Sound of Lies" or Joe Henry's new one have much to do
with Brian Wilson.
Right on. The Jayhawks' pop turn was pretty
Jr. goes:
Popular taste is not formed before industry dreck gets heard, it's
formed *in and by* industry dreck.
And then Todd goes:
When did T.W. Adorno sneak on to the list?
And so I goes:
Like, too long ago? Jr. is using a real overpure Frankfurt-school reading
of popular
No, no, I know that, Mr.Junior. (I mean, really, with a name like
"Junior", you'd have been drummed out of the Teddy-and-Walt Noble
Frankfurters Clubhouse at the first meeting...) But I was somewhat,
somehow serious that the management-and-creation-of-taste line, while
geez, Junior, don't go gettin' all apologetic on me, ya wuss. for the
record, there are many Escovedo moments i find unconvincing too. much
less so in a live setting, and i think the live record is a lot more
listenable than his studio albums, but, yeah, a lot of the time
Junior wrote:
np: Lyle Lovett "Sold American" (from Pearls in the Snow)
uh, what is Pearls in the Snow? (nice title when you stop to think
about it).
carl w.
I've been following this thread and trying to keep a lid on my temper,
since I know that Richard was addressing career strategy and didn't
mean his comments to sound the way they did - personally, when I hear
someone say "flaunting it" and "shoving it in people's faces,"
Jake, as expected, has delivered yet another lengthy and worthwhile
set of points here. Especially useful was the reference to the
Althusser etc. idea about the different layers of
culture/socioeconomy/demographics responding at different rates to
different forces but
Calexico.
Stevie wrote:
If you're wondering why all this is, it's worth bearing in mind that we had
19 years of an unbelievably repressive Tory government that even managed to
outlaw the "promotion" of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle in
education and cultural contexts.
"This song
Carl Z.:
Perhaps in two years, we'll see math-country (alt.country fused with
the very Frippian loud indie rock known as math-rock).
hoorah! ... actually, Carl, weren't those Terry-irking stop-start
(Minutemen-influenced) Uncle Tupelo songs math country,
Wow, talk about a big tent - it was kind of hilarious to see this clip
pop up in the middle of the oh-so-serious deliberations on No
Depression vs. Alt-Country and the sources and tributaries of each.
But since there seems to be some interest...
FROM INSURRECTION
Tera wrote:
- alt.country seems to be music for we aging baby boomers as opposed to
alt.rock or new country which seems to target the teen to twenties crowd.
Just a quick note as I gather breath to respond to Jake's epic
call'n'response from yesterday -
I think if you look at the P2 Survey
Tara, to clarify, it seems to me you're shouldering that "boomer"
mantle/stigma in vain, if I'm reading you right. Amerians born after
1960 are not really baby-boom material, for myriad reasons
social-and-economic chronology. For instance, if Watergate is one of
the
Noted I'd spelt Tera's name wrong. Mea culpa.
Cheryl Cline wrote:
What DO we call this stuff?
I know you're being semi-sarcastic but: Having a country influence and
not being on country radio doesn't seem to me to make this stuff all
of a genre, even though the same people will often like most of it.
Lance says:
If there was one thing that I do see a bit differently is the idea of irony
as a '90's development (of course, if you weren't suggesting that, Carl,
please call me out). In point of fact, irony seemed to be a fundamental
part of punk the moment rock came down with its case of
I thought it interesting that Jake preceded his piece by saying that he
thought Fulks's "Jet" cover was what put the "alt" in his alt-country, as
well as Dina's comment about how covers are received from alt-country
artists as compared to those of New Country singers.
It resonated, of course,
...covers of godawful cheesy rock songs? Why do people respond to these
more than they do to the, OK, I'm going to say it, "real" songs?
The obvious answer here is that people like to have fun (and
unfortunately sometimes people like to have fun much more than they
like
I'm off to a company-awards dinner with an open bar, so I can't linger
at the moment. But I'd like to urge everybody who might have balked at
the length to read Jake's piece right now (tho he shouldn't have sent
it as an attachment - you should repost it as mail for those
Re bluegrass 'n' the purists: I think it's right to be skeptical about the
extent of genre-purity policing and how much it's directly kept away potential
fans; *but* - consider the secondary possible effect, that purist attitudes are
part of the reason that bluegrassers have perhaps
Me-toos: Celine (nationalism be damned), Alanis for confusing a
generation about the meaning of the word irony (nationalism ditto),
Phish (look, turning people onto bluegrass is still no excuse for
turning much larger numbers of people on to hackysack) (no offense,
Terry wrote:
To me, production is like makeup on women; when it draws attention to
itself,
then it's not working.
Nice phrasing, but I don't buy it: I know what makeup is, but what
exactly is "production" in this sentence? Isn't it pretty much
everything on the recording?
Contributing just cuz -
I'm not 100 p.cent sure that one "has to" pick a Tupelo on such a list - sure,
there's a wide-ranging infl. on the subgenres we discuss here, but much of the
rest of that list was justified by the waves sent out that reached a broader
mass than that. And some
David's point about context sounds fuckin' cool: I heard a panel
discussion on record production on the radio this weekend that
included Niles Rogers, the fuckin'-cool-sounding producer-guitar
player from Chic and, of course, of David Bowie's least-twee, funniest
Just a correction of the record here, Jon. I didn't argue that the
views in the survey and intreviews were a step backward from anything.
(And I also didn't say suburban/female - I said average middle-class -
which was the focus of the survey and the related book (whose
Jon J wrote about cueers in quountry music:
A lot of the old taboos have fallen in the last ten years or so, but
that's still the Big One. The eventual emergence of the first openly
gay country music star is going to be one of the more fascinating
milestones in
Thanks don for recycling yer hard-country history lesson. Nice to
precisisize one's terminology, and I must have been off-list when you
first posted it a year ago...
carl w.
Lance wrote:
Well, I've heard the Kinks, the Beach Boys, and the ubiquitous Beatles referred
to, but does anyone else think of the Flaming Lips when they listen to this new
album? Or maybe Neutral Milk Hotel? I'm not necessarily suggesting an influence
here, but in their space-age orchestration
Evan mentioned his annual anti-valentine show, 'n (if this doesn't
qualify as fluff) prompted me to tell him that the last anti-valentine
broadcast he sent on tape has become my road-trip standby, so if the
offer's good a second time around... and I dunno if Carl tapes his
A few thoughts vaguely related to some current threads...
So the great mystery of the O97s is now cleared up -- after hearing
only a couple of tracks on comps here and there, I now actually know
what they truly sound and look like and what the hype is about, after
Swore to myself I'd do this properly this time - I don't know if this
is supposed to be Tfest material, but frankly I suspect lots of the
northerners don't bother with you southerners' social palaver. (I'm
beginning to agree with Barry M that the division is slightly
I'm counting on everyone to stop wishing alt-country will "blow open,"
since the continual frustration of that hope seems to me to be causing
some of the genre's stalwarts to falter a bit. There'll be events like
Lucinda's much-hyped (but not so much bought) 1998, but I
..Anyway, the idea is to grow a "scene" the way we grew up those many
years ago. And if i have to put on my own barn dances and publish my own
little fanzine or ezine or whatever to help it grow, I'll do it.
I have to say I agree. We have a little bluegrass fanzine called The Burr
here
JP writes:
2) I'm not talking about Son Volt et al. I'm talking about
converting teenagers already into country from crapola to good
country etc Kind of like Dwight, Clint, Randy and Steve saved
country from Kenny Rogers in 1986 (of course Garth ruined all that.)
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