Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
I wrote: So, essentially, the position of Baha'u'llah's followers is the same as Abel's: If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. We practice non-resistance in the face of religious persecution because we fear Allah... And, Dear Gilberto, you responded: The point I was making with the Cain and Abel story is that Muslims didn'thave to wait for the Bahahi faith to come allow non-resistance. This message is already contained within the Quran from a certain point of view. I'm sorry if it seemed I missed your point... I completely understood that Muhammed reinterated that story of Cain and Abel to emphasize the value in non-resistance as exemplified by Abel. And, yes, it has been there for all to see and follow. And, before Him, Christ: Matthew 5:17-22 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. We have this from - God Passes By - written by the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi: The ascendancy achieved by Bahá'u'lláh was nowhere better demonstrated than in His ability to broaden the outlook and transform the character of the community to which He belonged. Though Himself nominally a Bábí, though the provisions of the Bayan were still regarded as binding and inviolable, He was able to inculcate a standard which, while not incompatible with its tenets, was ethically superior to the loftiest principles which the Bábí Dispensation had established. The salutary and fundamental truths advocated by the Báb, that had either been obscured, neglected or misrepresented, were moreover elucidated by Bahá'u'lláh, reaffirmed and instilled afresh into the corporate life of the community, and into the souls of the individuals who comprised it. The dissociation of the Bábí Faith from every form of political activity and from all secret associations and factions; the emphasis placed on the principle of non-violence; the necessity of strict obedience to established authority; the ban imposed on all forms of sedition, on back-biting, retaliation, and dispute; the stress laid on godliness, kindliness, humility and piety, on honesty and truthfulness, chastity and fidelity, on justice, toleration, sociability, amity and concord, on the acquisition of arts and sciences, on self-sacrifice and detachment, on patience, steadfastness and resignation to the will of God -- all these constitute the salient features of a code of ethical conduct to which the books, treatises and epistles, revealed during those years, by the indefatigable pen of Bahá'u'lláh, unmistakably bear witness. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 132-33) My point was that the story also clearly demonstrates the Baha'i position on non-resistance in the presence of religious persecution. That would be retaliation and would serve no purpose.Through non-resistance we become an instrument of God's Justice - even if it means sacrificing our life, as Abel did. And, also this, from Baha'u'llah. O friends! Help ye the one true God, exalted be His glory, by your goodly deeds, by such conduct and character as shall be acceptable in His sight. He that seeketh to be a helper of God in this Day, let him close his eyes to whatever he may possess, and open them to the things of God. Let him cease to occupy himself with that which profiteth him, and concern himself with that which shall exalt the all-compelling name of the Almighty. He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for THE FEAR OF GOD IS THE WEAPON THAT CAN RENDER HIM VICTORIOUS, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The FEAR OF GOD IS THE SHIELD THAT DEFENDETH HIS CAUSE, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:23:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/23/2004 6:56:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The human condition, spiritual realities are more fundamental than technology or changes in social organization. Scott: Again, I agree. However, I would point out that IF the purpose of the covenant of God is to create an ever advancing civilization (the Kingdom of God on Earth) then the essence of the individual quandry can find expression in no other venue than how he relates to the rest of humanity - and that is society. Remember Baha`u'llah forbids forswearing the world and leading a hermetic life. We are born of mankind and cannot withdraw from the society of mankind. Gilberto: I'm not sure how your comments fit in. I don't think I've ever claimed one should withdraw from mankind. I think the problem of how an individual relates to the people around them is a fairly constant feature. Human beings live in groups and have to learn how to play well with others --- I meant that mankind is not a series of solitary souls. We are linked by our humanity and that link is society. Allindividual moral choices have to be seen as social choices as well. John Donne said No man is an island, complete unto himself . . . That's my point. Oh ok. I would agree with that. Peace __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:15:56 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, Responding to your comment: So already the Quranic dispensation has examples of resistance and non-resistance. Already there are forms of guidance which help deal with vastly changing circumstances. Understand? Sandra: You've no doubt heard already Abdu'l-Baha's analogy of education so I won't include that. Essentially, with each successive Divine Revelation humankind is further educated. Advances in understanding and implementation of their exhortations are made in the course of each Dispensation preparing us for the next revelation. Baha'u'llah encourages His followers to read and become familiar with all the Scriptures. I appreciate that you've shared the Quran passage concerning Cain and Abel. This illustrates clearly how the Revelations evolve as does human understanding. I don't see the revelations particularly evolving. The point I was making with the Cain and Abel story is that Muslims didn'thave to wait for the Bahahi faith to come allow dazxfsad bndxb h b I'll share with you Baha'u'llah's commentary on this Old Testament and Quranic story: O my friend, were the bird of thy mind to explore the heavens of the Revelation of the Qur'án, were it to contemplate the realm of divine knowledge unfolded therein, thou wouldst assuredly find unnumbered doors of knowledge set open before thee. Thou wouldst certainly recognize that all these things which have in this day hindered this people from attaining the shores of the ocean of eternal grace, the same things in the Muhammadan Dispensation prevented the people of that age from recognizing that divine Luminary, and from testifying to His truth. Thou wilt also apprehend the mysteries of return and revelation, and wilt securely abide within the loftiest chambers of certitude and assurance. And it came to pass that on a certain day a number of the opponents of that peerless Beauty, those that had strayed far from God's imperishable Sanctuary, scornfully spoke these words unto Muhammad: Verily, God hath entered into a covenant with us that we are not to credit an apostle until he present us a sacrifice which fire out of heaven shall devour. [1] The purport of this verse is that God hath covenanted with them that they should not believe in any messenger unless he work the miracle of Abel and Cain, that is, offer a sacrifice, and the fire from heaven consume it; even as they had heard it recounted in the story of Abel, which story is recorded in the scriptures. To this, Muhammad, answering, said: Already have Apostles before me come to you with sure testimonies, and with that of which ye speak. Wherefore slew ye them? Tell me, if ye are men of truth. [2] And now, be fair; How could those people living in the days of Muhammad have existed, thousands of years before, in the age of Adam or other Prophets? Why should Muhammad, that Essence of truthfulness, have charged the people of His day with the murder of Abel or other Prophets? Thou hast none other alternative except to regard Muhammad as an impostor or a fool -- which God forbid! -- or to maintain that those people of wickedness were the self-same people who in every age opposed and caviled at the Prophets and Messengers of God, till they finally caused them all to suffer martyrdom. [1 Qur'án 3:183.] [2 Qur'án 3:182.] Ponder this in thine heart, that the sweet gales of divine knowledge, blowing from the meads of mercy, may waft upon thee the fragrance of the Beloved's utterance, and cause thy soul to attain the Ridvan of understanding. As the wayward of every age have failed to fathom the deeper import of these weighty and pregnant utterances, and imagined the answer of the Prophets of God to be irrelevant to the questions they asked them, they therefore have attributed ignorance and folly to those Essences of knowledge and understanding. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 147) So, essentially, the position of Baha'u'llah's followers is the same as Abel's: If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. We practice non-resistance in the face of religious persecution because we fear Allah... lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public -
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:43:39 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, you wrote: Some situations now are like situations then, and if we understand the connection properly one can act accordingly. Sandra: Undoubtedly, a Muslim will follow the teachings of Muhammed; a Christian the teaching of Christ; a Jew the teachings of Moses; likewise, a Baha'i will follow the teachings of Baha'u'llah. The response each one makes to a given situation is contingent upon their personal religious convinctions and moral code of honor. Sure, but at the same time, just speaking for Muslims, I would say that the teachings of Islam cover a wide range of varied situations, both typical situations and atypical ones or even extremes. For example, the Quran gives guidelines in terms resisting an oppressor or an aggressor, but there are also examples of non-resistance. I don't know how familiar you are with the stories of Cain and Abel in the Bible and the Quran. I Think the Bible says something along the lines of And Cain rose up and slew Abel and growing up with that story I'd always had the impression that Cain surprised Abel, that he snuck up on him and beat him upside his head with a rock or something. In the Quranic version it is interesting that Cain doesn't sneak up on Abel. He actually announces his intentions quite clearly. [5.27] And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil). [5.28] If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds: [5.29] Surely I wish that you should bear the sin committed against me and your own sin, and so you would be of the inmates of the fire, and this is the recompense of the unjust. [5.30] Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers So already the Quranic dispensation has examples of resistance and non-resistance. Already there are forms of guidance which help deal with vastly changing circumstances. Understand? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/22/2004 9:46:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors. Doesn't collective security include fighting against aggressors? Are you saying the in the battles of Muhammad or Hussein that they fought against people who weren't aggressors? I mean, it seems to me that all major religions value human life. The Quran says whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men (5:32) So for the most part, fighting and killing is something done reluctantly. Individuals are fought against when they pose a threat to the larger group. That seems like a general principle. Peace Gilberto I think the battle of Muhammed and the Meccans have nothing to do with modern warfare. Why? Because modern warfare occurs between nations. The war in Iraq isn't exactly between nations. And even the Bush administration is talking about how with the war on terror the old models don't apply. Al-Qaeedah isn't a nation. In any case, I'm not totally convinced that nation is a morally significant category. In violent conflicts you generally have different sides with varying interests. If a loved one of mine dies violently I don't think I would feel better about it if it were done by a soldier in a spiffy uniform instead of a mafia hitman or some terrorist in a beard, turban and baggy pants.Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are largely the same. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations arelargely the same. Not so sure. There are many types of killing. 1. Human killing humanfor revenge. 2. Human killing animal for food. 3. Human killing human to prevent him from suffering (crushed under a bolder and will die anyway). 4. Human killing human for defend one's country. 5. Human killing human to expand one's national boarders. 6. Human killing human to defend one's religion (this is what Baha'is call Jihad). 7. Human killing human to spread one's religion (this is what Baha'is call also call Jihad (i think). 8. Human killing human for fun. 9. Human killing human in thought. 10. Human killing human for justice (murderer death penalty). 11. Human killing human to protect global welfare (war on terror, UN attacking an aggressor) 12. etc.etc. Baha'u'llah forbid, among others, #6 and #7 above. It appears to be that #6 and #7 are allowed in Islam. Correct me if I am wrong. Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are largely the same. Not so sure. There are many types of killing. I agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I certainly agree that some kinds of killing are unethical and some are ethical. I'm not a pacifist. But what I'm suggesting to you is that the ethical considerations which made different kinds of killing ok or not ok in the time of the prophet or the time of imam hussein are essentially the same as the ethical considerations which make different kinds of killing ok or not ok today. You had said that now, warfare is basically between nations and that this was a significant difference. I'm not convinced that this is a significant difference. In ethical terms I'm not sure why a nation should be any different from a very big tribe. Tribes have natural citizens, they adopted citizens, they looked out for one another, some probably dwelt in a particular area. That's what I'm trying to get across. Makes sense? Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are largely the same. Not so sure. There are many types of killing. 6. Human killing human to defend one's religion (this is what Baha'is call Jihad). 7. Human killing human to spread one's religion (this is what Baha'is call also call Jihad (i think). Baha'u'llah forbid, among others, #6 and #7 above. It appears to be that #6 and #7 are allowed in Islam. Correct me if I am wrong. The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stop persecution. This would have saved lives. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stoppersecution. This would have saved lives. J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious persecution?Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that all wars were committed by bad Muslims? Baha'u'llah distanced war from religion to the extend that it is not even allowed as a means to stop persecution and save lives.Better to die than to smearBaha'i withanother man's blood. This to me is a mark of true sovereignty and true power. Powerful too is the statement Baha'u'llah made about the persecution he suffered (Voice of God speaking to Baha'u'llah): "Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds... Be patient, O Thou Exile of the worlds... We have made abasement the garment of glory, and affliction the adornment of Thy temple, O Pride of the worlds. ... to overlook is Thine, O Thou Concealer of the sins of the worlds." (Fire Tablet) (Voice of Baha'u'llah to Christian monks) "if ye transgress against Me, I will, in My long-suffering, endure it patiently, and I, verily, am the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful." (Tablet to Christians) Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Hi, Scott, At 12:11 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote: Civil war is a phenomenon pretty much unknown in tribes. Tribes make warfare within anathema. Blood-feud is tightly controlled with the tribe. In other words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are exogamous. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:24:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In other words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are exogamous. I knew we could rely on you for the proper sociological term. I studied the phenomena from the historical point of view - as a military historian - the university I was at had just started specializing in the field within the history department back in my early days. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto, At 12:51 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote: But is this a morally significant difference? The Hutu and Tutsi were brought up elsewhere. I mean, randomly cutting up the non-combatants on other side with machetes is going to be wrong whether the other side is a tribe or a nation I don't know if it is morally significant or not. I also don't know if changes in certain laws have anything to do with the differences between tribes and nations. Obviously, there are still many parts of the world (parts of African, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, etc.) where one's tribe is more significant than one's nation. If laws change from one Prophet to the next, it is because God has that prerogative. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:01:26 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:46:54 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, what exactly is the difference in your definitions of tribe and nation and more importantly why is it a morally significant difference? Maybe I'd have to think to find an exception. But basically I would tend to think that whether you are talking about a nation, a tribe or the mafia, the same basic moral rules would tend to apply to all of them. I was not speaking of moral differences. But the tribe and the nation are different things. Different things deal with the question of morality in different ways. When the alphabet is different, and the language is different and the reality of the phenomena are different, how can moral standards be the same? One answer would be that any religion worth its salt will tap into something deep and long-lasting about the human condition and won't be just subject to moral fads which go up and down like hemlines. The human condition, spiritual realities are more fundamental than technology or changes in social organization. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:09 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stop persecution. This would have saved lives. J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious persecution? Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that all wars were committed by bad Muslims? I think I've been refering to more than once who Muhammad and Hussein participated in fighting. I didn't say or mean to imply that all fighting was wrong. What I think you had mentioned was about Muslims *starting* wars. I think in the above examples, the pre-existing situation of persecution and violence *started* the wars. The Muslims were just trying to address the situation. Baha'u'llah distanced war from religion to the extend that it is not even allowed as a means to stop persecution and save lives. Better to die than to smear Baha'i with another man's blood. This to me is a mark of true sovereignty and true power. But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or down like hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain act of killing was wrong after 1844 it would have been wrong before too, no? Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or downlike hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain actof killingwas wrong after 1844 it wouldhave been wrong before too,no? J: One wayI wouldrespond is to say that morality and sense of human value change from time to time: These changes emanate from God. Before 1863 (or whenever Bahaullah outlawed it - can someone help? - ), it was a-okay to kill to defend one's religion or ward off persecution. After the pronouncement, with the Command of His Pen, the rules were changed. This change may also occur within a particular Dispensation. Since I know Baha'u'llah's writings better than I know the Qur'an, I can point to an example - In the Surih of Hajj 1, Baha'u'llah commands the shaving of one's head. In the Surih of Hajj 2 and the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah reverses the command and forbids the shaving of one's headin any circumstance. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:28:02 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One answer would be that any religion worth its salt will tap intosomething deep and long-lasting about the human condition and won't bejust subject to moral fads which go up and down like hemlines.The human condition, spiritual realities are more fundamental thantechnology or changes in social organization. Again, I agree. However, I would point out that IF the purpose of the covenant of God is to create an ever advancing civilization (the Kingdom of God on Earth) then the essence of the individual quandry can find _expression_ in no other venue than how he relates to the rest of humanity - and that is society. Remember Baha`u'llah forbids forswearing the world and leading a hermetic life. We are born of mankind and cannot withdraw from the society of mankind. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace [and NOT TO RELY UNDULY]
This is what we have in his own handwriting *** **I urge them to study profoundly the revealed utterances of Baha'u'llah and the discourses of Abdu'l-Baha and not to rely unduly on the representation and interpretation of the Teachings given by Baha'i speakers and teachers. May the Almighty sustain you and guide you in your work. (In the handwriting of Shoghi Effendi, appended to a letter dated 20 March 1929 (Shoghi Effendi: The Importance of Deepening, Page: 206) your brother sending his warmest regards and desperately praying for peace [the true salaam] khazeh The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, UNLESS AND UNTIL HE CEASES TO REGARD THE WORDS and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to proselytization (conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on compulsion in religion. In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use threats or pressure to entice someone to convert. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto, At 07:06 AM 12/22/2004, you wrote: Fair enough. I'm not taking an issue with the policy as practiced but how it is described. If Bahais, in principle, have essentially the same policy as Muslims. What does it mean that Bahais say We don't prosyletize but Muslims don't make the same denial? It is the fallacy of naming. Many people assume that if someone else is using the same word, she or he means the same thing by it. To my knowledge, Shoghi Effendi never said that proselytizing was taught in the Qur'an. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto: Yes, exactly. Many religions prosyletize. But the Bahais give the impression of prosyletizing, but not admitting that they are prosyletizing. . . . And looking at the Bahais by themselves it might be possible to say that there is just some isolated misunderstanding. But then when I think of other communities which try to spread their message, they certainly admit candidly to trying to spread their message. It's the Bahahis which stand out as doing something which they say they don't do. Maybe it is a word issue. When I first got on this group, it was interesting to read that in the Ruhi classes people were discouraged from using dictionaries. But it still gives an impression of dishonesty. I agree that it gives the impression of dishonesty; however, as I stated I think that the problem is the lack of volcabulary understanding among some of the Baha'is. I think someone just made the statement that Baha'is don't prostelytize I got repeated over and over, without somone stopping to look up the dictionary meaning. I think that Mark's analogy with the idea of compulsion in religion is a good one. I, like our dear brother Kazeh, urge you to judge the Faith on the authoratative statements of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, the House of Justice rather than on the words and interpretations of individual Baha'is. This includes a statement I remember you quoting in a previous post from Promulgation of Universal Peace. Please note that the statement you quoted is not necessarily authoratative because that book is not written or reviewed by Abdu'l-Baha, but rather it was notes that individual people took of the talks and may have been shaded by their understandings of what was said. Also, touching on another aspect of this thread, please note that (at least) from a Baha'i viewpoint it's a totally different thing for a Manifestation of God (i.e. Mohammad, the Bab, or Baha'u'llah) to threaten hellfire than it is for a human. But I think that most religions would make the same distinction. e.g. I'm not telling you you are goin' to hell. God is telling you your're goin' to hell. Unless you change your ways. It says right here in the Bible. Yes, most religions would probably make the same distinction. But, in my opinion a Baha'i who is being true to Baha'ullah's teachings would never say that, because in effect by saying God is telling you you're goin' to hell one is making a judgment that no individual human has the right to make. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/22/2004 7:07:07 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:39:01 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to proselytization (conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on "compulsion in religion." In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use threats or pressure to entice someone to convert.Fair enough. I'm not taking an issue with the policy as practiced buthow it is described. If Bahais, in principle, have essentially thesame policy as Muslims. What does it mean that Bahais say "We don'tprosyletize" but Muslims don't make the same denial? Would it not be better to say it in Baha`i terms for understanding: Baha`is say: Don't compell people to accept a particular religion, but muslims don't make the same denial? Well, of course muslims make the same denial. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:48:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/22/2004 7:07:07 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:39:01 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to proselytization (conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on compulsion in religion. In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use threats or pressure to entice someone to convert. Fair enough. I'm not taking an issue with the policy as practiced but how it is described. If Bahais, in principle, have essentially the same policy as Muslims. What does it mean that Bahais say We don't prosyletize but Muslims don't make the same denial? Would it not be better to say it in Baha`i terms for understanding: Baha`is say: Don't compell people to accept a particular religion, but muslims don't make the same denial? Well, of course muslims make the same denial. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say we don't proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the Bahai faith are opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahais say We don't proselytize it certainly gives the impression of an absolute statement,. that they are claiming not to proselytize at all while other religions do. If Bahais said We actually do proselytize but we are really really nice about it I think that's actually true and would be more honest, even if it doesn't sound as impressive as the idea of not proselytizing at all. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:31:01 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say "we don'tproselytize" they mean the same thing which is in the Quran "there isno compulsion in religion" then they should say "Both Islam and theBahai faith are opposed to proselytizing". But when Bahais say "Wedon't proselytize" it certainly gives the impression of an absolutestatement,. that they are claiming not to proselytize at all whileother religions do. When I say "Baha`i's believe . . . " I am not making an absolute statement, because Baha`i's may disagree with me. Why when I say "Baha`i's do not condone proselytizing.", should it be construed to make ANY statement about Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism. Sabaeanism, Sikhism, Confucionsism, Taoism, Shintoism, Paganism, Animism, Satanism, or any other "ism"? Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:52:20 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If that's the case, then the Bahais should say "We believe in certaindistinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe thatwisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in thedistant future.". To just say "we believe in absolute gender equality"and leave it at that seems dishonest. You know Gilberto, I cannot think of a single place that promotes absolute gender equality in the writings. The writings affirm that both man and woman are equal in the sight of God. The writings say over and over that genders have different capacities and different responsibilities. No matter how much one speaks of gender equality a man cannot bear a child. Baha`u'llah says that if a father has money ONLY to educate ONE of his two children he should educate the female,because she will be the first educator of her own children. is this absolute gender equality? No. It is recognition of the special capacities and responsibilities of the female. yet even with these disparate capacities God views both the man and the woman as equal in His sight. So the term "absolute gender equality" is contrary to the Baha`i Writings. If individuals try to use that term in teaching it is their own error and not the error of Baha`u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the institutions of the faith. One should not blame Muhammed because some of His followers propose that one should go against Muhammed's clear intent in the name of Muhammed's religion. neither should one blame the faith for the mistakes of SOME of its followers. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Peace Gilberto I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahá'ís say we don't proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the Bahai Faith is opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahá'ís say We don't proselytize it certainly gives the impression of an absolute statement, that they are claiming not to proselytize at all while other religions do. If Bahá'ís said We actually do proselytize but we are really really nice about it I think that's actually true and would be more honest, even if it doesn't sound as impressive as the idea of not proselytizing at all. Peace Gilberto On this matter of proselytizing dear dear Gilberto you have made some cogent points some lucid and coherent points and again because of fairness I would agree with you. Some of what you say is true but again as I mentioned before we must direct our eyes on that which has been written by Baha'u'llah, by 'Abdu'l-Baha, the Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice: Care, however, should, at all times, be exercised, lest in their eagerness to further the international interests of the Faith they frustrate their purpose, and turn away, through any ACT THAT MIGHT BE MISCONSTRUED AS AN ATTEMPT TO PROSELYTIZE AND BRING UNDUE PRESSURE UPON THEM, THOSE WHOM THEY WISH TO WIN OVER TO THEIR CAUSE. (Shoghi Effendi: The Advent of Divine Justice, Page: 66)*** Notice there is no doubt that we do wish to win over humanity to the Cause of God. All the Manifestations were commanded to TEACH **Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations** Mark 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things. Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. And in the Holy Qur'an 005.067 YUSUFALI: O Messenger! PROCLAIM [BALLIGH]the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And God will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For God guideth not those who reject Faith. PICKTHAL: O Messenger! MAKE KNOWN [BALLIGH] that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. God will protect thee from mankind. Lo! God guideth not the disbelieving folk. SHAKIR: O Messenger! DELIVER [BALLIGH]what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and God will protect you from the people; surely God will not guide the unbelieving people. From the singular imperative BALLIGH you get TABLEEGH [which is the word used in all the Baha'I Writings and which is most commonly translated as TEACHING] But guidance ultimately is empowered enabled by God 030.053 YUSUFALI: Nor canst thou lead back the blind from their straying: only those wilt thou make to hear, who believe in Our signs and submit (their wills in Islam). PICKTHAL: Nor canst thou guide the blind out of their error. Thou canst make none to hear save those who believe in Our revelations so that they surrender (unto Him). SHAKIR: Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in Our communications so they shall submit. 028.056 YUSUFALI: IT IS TRUE THOU WILT NOT BE ABLE TO GUIDE EVERY ONE, WHOM THOU LOVEST; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance. PICKTHAL: LO! THOU (O MUHAMMAD) GUIDEST NOT WHOM THOU LOVEST, BUT GOD GUIDETH WHOM HE WILL. And He is Best Aware of those who walk aright. SHAKIR: Surely YOU CANNOT GUIDE WHOM YOU LOVE, but God guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way. And as we read Today the greatest of all divine bestowals is teaching the Cause of God for it is fraught with confirmations. Every teacher is confirmed and is favoured at the Divine Threshold (`Abdu'l-Baha) But Teaching is seen within the overall picture of TRANSFORMATION ** Today it behoveth one and all to forgo the mention of all else, and to disregard all things. Let their speaking, let their inner state be summed up thus: `Keep all my words of prayer and praise confined to one refrain; make all my life but servitude to Thee.' That is, let them concentrate all their thoughts, all their words, on teaching the Cause of God and spreading the Faith of God, and inspiring all to characterize themselves with the characteristics of God; on loving mankind; on being pure and holy in all things, and spotless in their public and private life; on being upright and detached, and fervent, and afire. All is to be yielded up, save only the remembrance of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise. Today, to this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance: `Glory be to my Lord, the
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Wouldn't the behaviours of Muhammad or even Hussein have also been permitted under righteous warfare? Peace Gilberto In relation to Muhammad: *** The military expeditions of Muhammad, on the contrary, were always defensive actions: a proof of this is that during thirteen years, in Mecca, He and His followers endured the most violent persecutions. At this period they were the target for the arrows of hatred: some of His companions were killed and their property confiscated; others fled to foreign lands. Muhammad Himself, after the most extreme persecutions by the Qurayshites, who finally resolved to kill Him, fled to Medina in the middle of the night. Yet even then His enemies did not cease their persecutions, but pursued Him to Medina, and His disciples even to Abyssinia. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Pages: 18-19)*** In relation to the Imam Husayn Please Please see http://bahai-library.com/theses/dying/dying5.shiism.html#RTFToC13 The Martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali The principal events surrounding the death of Imam Husayn, the Prince of Martyrs (sayyed al-shuhada') are clear and fairly well documented, though their interpretation may not always be. However, this event soon became the event of central significance to the entire Shii history--indeed, it became seen as a central event in the entire history of humankind, one towards which previous history was teleologically drawn and from which subsequent history charted its course[52]--and its details became highly elaborated upon and surrounded with numerous non-historical embellishments. While any academic history of Shiism will present the details of this history, it is only the event as seen through the eye of the believer that concerns this project.[53] As this event is foundational for Shiism and Babism and its details and characters will be referred to and cited frequently in this study, a summary of the incident is necessary here. The following account, which is representative of what has become a distinct genre of narrations of Husayn's death, will be telescoped from an apologetic (and, incidentally, Bahai) source: Abu'l-Qasim Faizi's The Prince of Martyrs: a brief account of the Imam Husayn.[54] http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/ziyarat.imam.husayn.kf.html Lawh-i-Zíyárat-Namih-i-Imám Husayn[1] Tablet of Visitation for Imám Husayn A PhD thesis http://bahai-library.com/theses/religious.unity/religious.unity.01.html another Ph D thesis http://bahai-library.com/?file=lawson_quran_commentary_bab.html The Ra'fati thesis http://bahaistudies.net/td/DevelopmentofShaykhiThought-pp1-48(Rafati).pdf __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/22/2004 12:35:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bahai studies list is different from soc.religion.bahai.That would be a fair distinction. The News groups are ZOOS. The worst of them is alt.revisionism. I have chosen to no longer participate on them because they are zoos. No one can read them and see anynope to communicate. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:23:35 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wouldn't the behaviours of Muhammad or even Hussein have also been permitted under righteous warfare? Peace Gilberto Thank you for the references. Maybe I should spell out more. I wasn't really so much asking for the information. (I've seen the first passage before and the second is a little new to me, but isn't surprising) What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or unnecessary in it. And for Bahais to say that holy war has been blotted out, but righteous warfare is A-ok, is like saying 6 is bigger than half-a-dozen. PEace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:40:03 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:31:01 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say we don't proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the Bahai faith are opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahais say We don't proselytize it certainly gives the impression of an absolute statement,. that they are claiming not to proselytize at all while other religions do. When I say Baha`i's believe . . . I am not making an absolute statement, because Baha`i's may disagree with me. Why when I say Baha`i's do not condone proselytizing., should it be construed to make ANY statement about Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism. Sabaeanism, Sikhism, Confucionsism, Taoism, Shintoism, Paganism, Animism, Satanism, or any other ism? I think very often a comparison is intended. Bahais certainly do claim that the Bahai faith is more complete, deeper, more progressed, etc. than other religions. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:31:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I'm not being clear and not including all the background or context for my comments. In another context, a Bahai claimed that the Bahai faith is the *first* religion to teach gender equality. If that is true, then the corollary is that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. do NOT teach gender equality. So in some sense that is the original claim in the background, okay? In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:52:20 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the Bahais should say We believe in certain distinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe that wisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in the distant future.. To just say we believe in absolute gender equality and leave it at that seems dishonest. Scott: You know Gilberto, I cannot think of a single place that promotes absolute gender equality in the writings. The writings affirm that both man and woman are equal in the sight of God. The writings say over and over that genders have different capacities and different responsibilities. Gilberto: Okay. And I would say that the Quran also afirms that men and women are equal in the sight of God. While at the same time acknowledging different responsibilities. So to me it would make sense to look at both religions and say Islam and the Bahahi faith both teach gender equality Or it would be consistent to say Both Islam and the Bahai faith make certain reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women. But to say that the Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam does not, seems rather selective and self-serving. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Hi, Gilberto, At 12:35 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote: No. You are right. It's not automatic. It can vary with context. But in order to survive in the world, on a regular basis we have to able to reliably perform this correspondence task over and over again. And we do pretty okay most of the time. Or we *assume* that we do okay. Harold Garfinkel, the developer of ethnomethodology, a methodological approach within sociology, demonstrated repeatedly the manner in which people assume that the rules they follow are rational, and that, therefore, anyone who does not follow them is, at the least, irrational and, at the most, insane. These rule-making (heuristic or normative) processes include a frequent presumption of universality regarding one's own word definitions. Frequently, one may believe that the other person has understood one's points, because she used familiar taxonomies, but her intentionalities, her meanings, were actually thoroughly different from one's own. Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off a piece, put it between two pieces of bread with lettuce and tomato, and start to eat it. I would be both surprised and moved by your faith in my integrity if you thought to yourself Maybe when he says 'pork' he doesn't mean what I mean when I say 'pork' The more concrete one's references, the less likely confusion may result. However, what if one person is a Presbyterian, and the other is a Muslim or an Orthodox Jew. Perhaps the Muslim or Orthodox Jew assumes that the Presbyterian was intending, by consuming pork in front of the Muslim or Orthodox Jew, to cause offense. However, the dietary preferences of the Muslim or Orthodox Jew never crossed the Presbyterian's mind. She was simply hungry. They can look up words in the dictionary just as easily as you can. And fairly consistently they seem to be mischaracterizing their own religion and casting aspersions on yours. At some point, trust gets more and more stretched. And then broken. No? I would ask for further clarifications. However, in some cases, it may be valid for that trust to be broken. Perhaps the Bahai studies list is different from soc.religion.bahai. That would be a fair distinction. I don't know. It has been a long time since I have read the postings on that (or any) Usenet newsgroup. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:53:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think very often a comparison is intended. Bahais certainly do claimthat the Bahai faith is more complete, deeper, more progressed, etc.than other religions. A comparison may be PERCEIVED whether it is intended or not. If one SEEKS fault, one will find it, whether it was there or not. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto: ** What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or unnecessary in it. And for Bahais to say that holy war has been blotted out, but righteous warfare is A-ok, is like saying 6 is bigger than half-a-dozen. Peace Gilberto My dear Gilberto I appreciate truly your patience with me [and indeed with all of us] and I hope you see that our understanding is growing apace. I hope so earnestly. You write: ***And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or unnecessary in it.*** It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command [S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence. Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law was explicit: We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these Commandments. The Writings of the Bahai Faith explicit disallow such a belittling Nor does the Baha'i Revelation, claiming as it does to be the culmination of a prophetic cycle and the fulfilment of the promise of all ages, attempt, under any circumstances, to invalidate those first and everlasting principles that animate and underlie the religions that have preceded it. The God-given authority, vested in each one of them, it admits and establishes as its firmest and ultimate basis. It regards them in no other light except as different stages in the eternal history and constant evolution of one religion, Divine and indivisible, of which it itself forms but an integral part. It neither seeks to obscure their Divine origin, NOR TO DWARF THE ADMITTED MAGNITUDE OF THEIR COLOSSAL ACHIEVEMENTS. It can countenance no attempt that seeks to distort their features or to stultify the truths which they instill. Its teachings do not deviate a hairbreadth from the VERITIES THEY ENSHRINE, nor does the weight of its message detract one jot or one tittle from the influence they exert or the loyalty they inspire. Far from aiming at the overthrow of the spiritual foundation of the world's religious systems, its avowed, its unalterable purpose is to widen their basis, to restate their fundamentals, to reconcile their aims, to reinvigorate their life, to demonstrate their oneness, to restore the pristine purity of their teachings, to coordinate their functions and to assist in the realization of their highest aspirations. (Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 114) So of course of course we do not stultify. The Law of Qitaal [Religious Fighting was there *** 008.065 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! ROUSE THE BELIEVERS TO THE FIGHT. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. PICKTHAL: O Prophet! EXHORT THE BELIEVERS TO FIGHT. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. SHAKIR: O Prophet! URGE THE BELIEVERS TO WAR; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.*** 2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena So right up till the Dawn of this Dispensation Jihad was initiated, warfare was instituted at the Command and Fatwa of a Mujtahid. But in this Dispensation Baha'u'llah wrote: *** In former religions such ordinances as holy war...had been laid down and AFFIRMED ACCORDING TO THE EXIGENCIES OF THE TIME; however, in this mighty Revelation, in this momentous Announcement, the manifold bestowals and favours of God have overshadowed all men, and from the horizon of the Will of the Ever-Abiding Lord, His infallible decree hath prescribed that which We have set forth above. (Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 28)*** So all I am begging you to consider dear Gilberto is that yes the EXIGENCIES OF the Time of Islam are not the exigencies of today. This is not the case of six or half a dozen The more coherent analogy is this perhaps. All infections in the human organism result in illness. SOME result in fever. BUT some overwhelming infections result in SEPTIC SHOCK and NO FEVER. As a doctor for 32 years I cannot say the EXIGENCIES of ALL
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:59:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Or it would be consistent to say "Both Islam and the Bahai faith makecertain reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women." But to saythat the Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam does not,seems rather selective and self-serving. Islam was a huge break through in gender equality for the people of the time. If Baha`u'llah does not create an equally large breakthrough, then how can His be a distinct revelation. Both Baha`i and Islam provided such a breakthrough, but Baha`i came second and that breakthrough is more appropriate to this day and age. I think the gender equality practiced in the Baha`i Faith is indeedprogress. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:51:47 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:59:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Or it would be consistent to say Both Islam and the Bahai faith make certain reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women. But to say that the Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam does not, seems rather selective and self-serving. Islam was a huge break through in gender equality for the people of the time. If Baha`u'llah does not create an equally large breakthrough, then how can His be a distinct revelation. To be honest, I'm not sure if that is particularly persuasive as an argument. The women's movement had already gotten started before 1844. Perhaps Bahais can say that they oppose sexism and aren't sexist. And the Bahais along with many other groups and movements are working to improve the condition of women in the world. But I'm not sure they can say that they are so radically progressive that this constitutes proof of a miraculous origin. Both Baha`i and Islam provided such a breakthrough, but Baha`i came second and that breakthrough is more appropriate to this day and age. I think the gender equality practiced in the Baha`i Faith is indeed progress. I think Muslims and Bahais and all people of faith and conscience can work to improve the position of women in their societies. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:30:42 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 12:35 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote: No. You are right. It's not automatic. It can vary with context. But in order to survive in the world, on a regular basis we have to able to reliably perform this correspondence task over and over again. And we do pretty okay most of the time. Or we *assume* that we do okay. [...] Frequently, one may believe that the other person has understood one's points, because she used familiar taxonomies, but her intentionalities, her meanings, were actually thoroughly different from one's own. Gilberto: You just reminded me of a joke I heard once. I'll include it at the bottom. Gilberto: Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off a piece, put it between two pieces of bread with lettuce and tomato, and start to eat it. I would be both surprised and moved by your faith in my integrity if you thought to yourself Maybe when he says 'pork' he doesn't mean what I mean when I say 'pork' Mark: The more concrete one's references, the less likely confusion may result. Gilberto: They can look up words in the dictionary just as easily as you can. And fairly consistently they seem to be mischaracterizing their own religion and casting aspersions on yours. At some point, trust gets more and more stretched. And then broken. No? Mark: I would ask for further clarifications. However, in some cases, it may be valid for that trust to be broken. Peace Gilberto The Pope and Moishe About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Jews had to leave the Vatican. Naturally there was a big uproar from the Jewish community. So the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Jewish community. If the Jew won, they could stay. If the Pope won, the Jews would leave. The Jews realized that they had no choice. So they picked a middle aged man named Moishe to represent them. Moishe asked for one addition to the debate. To make it more interesting, neither side would be allowed to talk. The pope agreed. The day of the great debate came. Moishe and the Pope sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. Moishe looked back at him and raised one finger. The Pope waved his fingers in a circle around his head. Moishe pointed to the ground where he sat. The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine. Moishe pulled out an apple. The Pope stood up and said, I give up. This man is too good. The Jews can stay. An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope asking him what happened. The Pope said, First I held up three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our religions. Then I waved my finger around me to show him that God was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground and showing that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine and the wafer to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an answer for everything. What could I do? Meanwhile, the Jewish community had crowded around Moishe. What happened? they asked. Well, said Moishe, First he said to me that the Jews had three days to get out of here. I told him that not one of us was leaving. Then he told me that this whole city would be cleared of Jews. I let him know that we were staying right here. And then? asked a woman. I don't know, said Moishe. He took out his lunch and I took out mine. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Dear Khazeh, I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting at and are trying to avoid it. Perhaps first and foremost the Bahahi faith is a certain way of thinking and a certain approach to religion more than a specific set of propositions and doctrines? Is that what you are trying to say? On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:51:14 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: ** What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or unnecessary in it. And for Bahais to say that holy war has been blotted out, but righteous warfare is A-ok, is like saying 6 is bigger than half-a-dozen. Khazeh: It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command [S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence. Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law was explicit: We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these Commandments. Gilberto: I'm not saying you are insulting or belittling those commandments. I understand that you think very highly of Allah, Muhammad, the Quran and the Imams. But let's look again at the ayat of Quran which you mentioned: 2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena So the Quran permits fighting against people who are persecuting, who are oppressing. And not against those who are not oppressing. Can we agree to that? Now, when I read the passage in the Bahai writings, the section on righteous warfare or read about collective security, this also gives permission to fight against those who are aggressors but not against those who are peaceful, correct? So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are the same? Or are they different? In a sense if Moses or Jesus lived in the Days of Muhammad in Arabia He would give the same Teachings and mutatis mutandis. Okay. That is a good statement. But it is not just a matter of the calendar. It is a matter of the specific situation. But that can all be taken care of within the Quran and sunnah. Some situations now are like situations then, and if we understand the connection properly one can act accordingly. . Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto wrote: I think Muslims and Bahais and all people of faith and conscience can work to improve the position of women in their societies. Yes, Gilberto, you are correct in what you have written. This we must do. We, whatever religion we espouse, must work for the betterment of humankind. All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization.(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto wrote: So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are the same? Or are they different? Dear Gilberto, The situations are entirely different. During the time of Muhammad the religion of God itself was to be protected through jihad against those who attacked Muslims after having made a covenant not to; and against those who drive the muslims from their homes without provocation. In this time, force is used by the world against an oppressor for the protection of mankind as a whole; and apparently without regard to whether or not the world is a Baha'i world. In like manner, the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure. Abdu'l-Baha quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 37) Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Hi, Gilberto, At 07:13 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote: You just reminded me of a joke I heard once. I'll include it at the bottom. I have actually told that one myself. ;-) Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off a piece, put it between two pieces of bread with lettuce and tomato, and start to eat it. I would be both surprised and moved by your faith in my integrity if you thought to yourself Maybe when he says 'pork' he doesn't mean what I mean when I say 'pork' The closer one gets to something concrete, to signs (like eating pork) rather than symbols (like the significance of pork in particular religious contexts), the less likely there will be significant confusion. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto:In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.J:imo, the Baha'i view is that the aggressor's intentions are important. If the purpose of theaggression is religiously based (i.e. you are a Baha'i and I hate your prophet so I want tokill you), we are not allowed to fight back (and of course not allowed to initiate a religiouslybased war either). Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto, At 09:45 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote: In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors. If I may, it seems to me as though you are making at least two assumptions which I would not make: 1. God's Will does not change. 2. Logic can be considered apart from the assumptions of a particular revelational paradigm. Baha'u'llah wrote: And likewise, reflect upon the revealed verse concerning the 'Qiblih.' ... when the Prophet, together with His companions, was offering the noontide prayer, and had already performed two of the prescribed Rik'ats, the Voice of Gabriel was heard again: 'Turn Thou Thy face towards the sacred Mosque.' In the midst of that same prayer, Muhammad suddenly turned His face away from Jerusalem and faced the Ka'bih. Whereupon, a profound dismay seized suddenly the companions of the Prophet. Their faith was shaken severely. So great was their alarm, that many of them, discontinuing their prayer, apostatized their faith. Verily, God caused not this turmoil but to test and prove His servants. Otherwise, He, the ideal King, could easily have left the Qiblih unchanged, and could have caused Jerusalem to remain the Point of Adoration unto His Dispensation, thereby withholding not from that holy city the distinction of acceptance which had been conferred upon it. -- The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp.49-51 The fact that Baha'u'llah changed the law regarding jihad, but that `Abdu'l-Baha permitted just wars in other contexts, is the prerogative of God. In other words, the divine Will for the Baha'i Dispensation is dependent only on its revelation in Baha'u'llah, not on how it was revealed through Muhammad, Christ, or any other Messenger. Logic cannot be divorced from the presumptions of the paradigm. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Dear Khazeh, I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting at and are trying to avoid it. Perhaps first and foremost the Bahahi faith is a certain way of thinking and a certain approach to religion more than a specific set of propositions and doctrines? Is that what you are trying to say? Khazeh: It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command [S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence. Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law was explicit: We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these Commandments. Gilberto: I'm not saying you are insulting or belittling those commandments. I understand that you think very highly of Allah, Muhammad, the Quran and the Imams. But let's look again at the ayat of Quran which you mentioned: 2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena So the Quran permits fighting against people who are persecuting, who are oppressing. And not against those who are not oppressing. Can we agree to that? Now, when I read the passage in the Bahai writings, the section on righteous warfare or read about collective security, this also gives permission to fight against those who are aggressors but not against those who are peaceful, correct? So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are the same? Or are they different? In a sense if Moses or Jesus lived in the Days of Muhammad in Arabia He would give the same Teachings and mutatis mutandis. Okay. That is a good statement. But it is not just a matter of the calendar. It is a matter of the specific situation. But that can all be taken care of within the Quran and sunnah. Some situations now are like situations then, and if we understand the connection properly one can act accordingly. . Peace Gilberto Dear Gilberto ** Dear Khazeh, I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with a lot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting at and are trying to avoid it.** Dear Gilberto I try to understand. Believe me I try to understand. I am not avoiding answering. These are the points I am making. 1] The Source the Ultimate Source of the Commandments of God is the Divine Will [the Mashiyyat al-aAwwaliyyah] in Every Age and Aeon. The Source is One. The One Who said Observe the Ten Commandments, the One Who said : If they smite you on the right cheek turn the left The One Who said : Qur'an 008.065 PICKTHAL: O Prophet! EXHORT THE BELIEVERS TO FIGHT. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. SHAKIR: O Prophet! URGE THE BELIEVERS TO WAR; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.*** All the above the Source is One. That Source's Intentions are to transform, guide, rectify, chasten, regenerate humanity in every age. [I hope you are following me so far :)] BUT clearly these teachings from the Primal Source [from that Mashiyyat al-awwaliyyah ] which Mark Foster also made reference too are not empirically or literally the same. Why do I say they are not EMPIRICALLY THE SAME? Because clearly observe the SPREAD OF ISLAM It reached Damascus, Byzantium Persia Egypt within a few decades with armies and swords and the Book [or that which was recited of the Book] because the Uthman Recension of the Holy Qur'an took place after some time LONG AFTER THESE battles were fought and won. Now is this empirically the same as the spread of Christianity in its first three hundred years or the spread of the Bahai Faith? There was something different. Now I would say it was the Will of God [more or less] that the spread of Islam be in that way. Why the more or less? Because I do believe the Primacy of the Imam 'Ali was not recognized universally and remained unimplemented [the Imam 'Ali was chosen as the Fourth Caliph]...and that had enormous consequences in its own right dearest Gilberto.
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Now I would say it was the Will of God [more or less] that the spread of Islam be in that way. Why the more or less? Because I do believe the Primacy of the Imam 'Ali was not recognized universally and remained unimplemented [the Imam 'Ali was chosen as the Fourth Caliph]...and that had enormous consequences in its own right Interestingly the texts of the most relied upon Hadiths testify to this loss http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html#0 01.003.114 Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114: of Hadith BUKHARI Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got God's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me. Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that God's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. *** Reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Kitabul-Wasiyyah in section Babut- Tarkil-Wasiyyah, 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3, P1259, Tradition (#1637/21). The other version is given by al-Bukhari and Muslim which indicates the role of Umar in that catastrophe: Sahih al-Bukhari Hadiths: 9.468 and 7.573 Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khatttab, the Prophet said: Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray. 'Umar said: The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us. The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray, while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, Go away and leave me. Ibn 'Abbas used to say, It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:03 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people as described? Dear Gilberto I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which you post on these important themes. I just wish to say that I appreciate your time and effort in sorting out these questions, and in many ways, I'm learning from you. Gilberto: Thank you. That is very kind of you to say. Khazeh: In going back to your substantive question above, of course such divines exist otherwise the Pen of Baha'u'llah would not have described them. Gilberto: But do they exist among non-Bahais in the present day? Do they exist among Bahais in the present day? Khazeh: Those divines, Baha'u'llah has affirmed, ...who are truly adorned with the ornament of knowledge and of a goodly character are, verily, as a head to the body of the world, and as eyes to the nations. The guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls. (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 110-111) Gilberto: When I read that passage I wasn't sure if current religious leaders were included or was it just limited to those prophets of the past. 2) Dear Gilberto, you wrote [Also, I just looked at some other sections of the Promised Day has Come and I think it is better to be candid about what is in your books. Especially now with the internet being what it is, it doesn't make any sense to hide what is in them. In the section entitled Words to Muslim Ecclesiastics it says: In that same Book the Bb thus addresses the Sh'ihs, as well as the entire body of the followers of the Prophet: O concourse of Sh'ihs! Fear ye God, and Our Cause, which concerneth Him Who is the Most Great Remembrance of God. For great is its fire, as decreed in the Mother-Book. O people of the Qur'n! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date stone. Khazeh: Once again, I appreciate your effort in trying to clarify different aspects of the utterances in Baha'i books. I must say in all sincerity and humility that there is no question of hiding any references. Gilberto: But sometimes certain Bahais make statements which construct a very specific image of the Bahai faith. And it certainly gives the impression that certain kinds of phrases or statements are not in the Bahai scriptures at all. And so multiple occasions I've read things in the writings which give a very very different impression from previous statements, and which, to be honest, makes me feel like someone is trying to trick people. And in alot of ways the statements are tied up with the doctrine of progressive revelation and are particularly directed at Islam. For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel lied to. The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai concept of righteous warfare. Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly what is found in the writings of the Bab. It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what they say they believe. But in the case of the Bahai faith there are things in the writings which at the very least give a very STRONG contrast to the general image which the Bahai faith puts out. In the case of Islam, growing up in the West, I started off with many different stereotypes. But the more I read the Quran, or other books about Islam, the more I realized that the stereotypes were misrepresentations, and that in reality true Islam is very different from the images which are put out there in the media. In the Bahai faith I almost have the opposite experience. My initial impressions are of the Bahai faith being this nice liberal progressive religion with good ideals. And I think on an individual level, many of the Bahais I've met (in person and virtually) exemplify that. But then I read the writings in more detail or read more about certain actions and policies of the institutions, and it seems to give a very
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith isgender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that theBahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feellied to. Scott I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. They also decided to exclude themselves from service on the House of Justice. They were the Hands of the Cause who administered the faith after the passing of the Guardian. So I see no conflict of interest there. Do I understand WHY there is that distinction? No. But I am told that in the fullness of time the reason will become apparent. On the other hand we are told that peace is impossible until women take their full place in the governance of nations. Gilberto: "The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted fromthe book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahaiconcept of "righteous warfare"." Scott A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. When one nation is invaded ALL nations should come to the aid of the nation attacked. In this frame of reference, I think the original Gulf War was justifiable - in that Kuwait was invaded and the nations of the world united behind protecting the invaded nation. The Second World War was a justifiable war - both Poland and China were invaded and other nations came to their defense. Gilberto: "Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into anexplanation I've been told that it means that they don't threatennon-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactlywhat is found in the writings of the Bab." Scott: Baha`i's do not "proselytize" in the normal sense. We do not present information or material without a willing ear. That seems to be the key difference. As to the Writings of the Bab, the Writings of baha`u'llah abrogate several of those ordinances. Even in the day of the Bab hardly any Babis ever read the Bayan. They were far more familiar with the Qayyum'l Asma. So if you want to understand the Revelation of the Bab that is the place to concentrate. Gilberto: "It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalistwho was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or theconcept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I wouldstill probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagreewith me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe whatthey say they believe." Scott I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be different than another's. Gilberto: "For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about Allah,and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's verynice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about Muslims.Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you justfocus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you justfocus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing." Scott Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become very hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from accepting the new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led the fight against Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent that they misled the people they are responsible for their own actions. In the light of what they did do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that harsh? Truth is truth. If one accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are speaking truth then why do they speak harshly? To prevent others from committing the errors of the past. That is a good reason, not a harsh reason. In my opinion, of course. Gilberto: "Gilberto:I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make apolologiesfor that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse written inneon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, but Idon't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful thingsto say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to sayabout Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about Arabsand hypocritical "Muslims" too. And for me personally, what makes the"harshness" okay is that it is all has a context. Everything isbalanced. And to be honest, I find the tone really refreshingsometimes." Scott: Yet you condemn the figures of the Baha`i Revelation from speaking in the same tone for the same purpose? I find that inconsistent.
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/21/2004 10:17:55 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott, What are you talking about? The Hands did not make any decision that women could not serve. That had already been determined by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. I agree to this extent: The Hands were in charge they chose to follow the guidance of Abdu'l Baha and the instructions of Baha`u'llah. The point remains that they CHOSE to do so. If they had opened the election of the UHJ to women and themselves, who would have said "NO!". The fact that they exercised their trust in such an exemplary fashion is testimony to their dedication to the cause. It does not alter the fact that they COULD have done differently and created, perhaps, scores of breaches within the Cause of God at the same time. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto: Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly what is found in the writings of the Bab. Patti: I agree that there is a problem here. I've always winced when I hear Baha'is say that we don't proselytise, because a dictionary description (that is the one associated in my mind with the word) is: proselytise v : convert to another faith or religion [syn: proselytise] When we carry out teaching campaigns to share the faith we are certainly hoping that people will convert; however, I think that the problem is mainly just that many Baha'is don't understand this definition of proselytize (which is my primary definition and the reason I wince when someone tells a seeker that Baha'is do not proselytise). It is clear in the guidance from Shoghi Effendi that we should not aggressively proselytize, i.e. put people under undue pressure or threaten them with eternal hellfire. There is a big distinction between this and simply sharing the Faith and explaining it to people who are interested. Also, touching on another aspect of this thread, please note that (at least) from a Baha'i viewpoint it's a totally different thing for a Manifestation of God (i.e. Mohammad, the Bab, or Baha'u'llah) to threaten hellfire than it is for a human. The Manifestations are the only ones with the authority to judge. I think that most religious leaders, and most people for that matter, have a mix of good qualities and bad qualities. And., im the praises or condemnations of the Manifestations for a class of religious leaders, I think most fall somewhere in the middle. I suspect that there are very few who deserve complete condemnation and few who are truly and unequivocally Holy, but that in some cases the passages or praise or condemnation are directed at those extremes. In sharing the faith with others we, as individuals, have no authority to judge or threaten another. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:17:09 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai concept of righteous warfare. Those aren't holy wars, Gilberto. A Holy War is waged in defense of religion, not ones country. I don't think the Bahai writings limit the application of righteous warfare to only fighting for a country. If we focus on one passage, we'd even read: A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. The text gives examples of what might constitute a righteous purpose but nothing here limits righteous purpose to only particicular kinds of activities. Also, why couldn't warfare in defense of religion be included under the principle of hikmat? PEace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
To just say we believe in absolute gender equality and leave it at that seems dishonest. Dear Gilberto, Somehow you have a knack for overstating the Baha'i position so that it no longers resembles anything we actually said. The term 'absolute' is yours, not ours. What we are arguing is that the Baha'i Faith teaches the equality of women and men in those areas which really matter. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism. We never claimed to be pacifists. And I'm still unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of jihad. A jihad in Muhammad's time signified warfare to defend ones religion. This is what is disallowed in this Dispensation. 've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive. That is true. But wars to defend our religion are forbidden. What did Muhammad or Hussein do in their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies were trying to kill them. We will die rather than kill in the name of religion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:33:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott. A lot of people.It was understood that the Hands were not infallible, nor was their authorityall that clear in terms of the Covenant.If they had attempted to do something which so clearlyflew in the face of the Guardian'sown authoritative interpretations there would have been a massive outcry. warmest, Susan And if they had done so, it would have been disastrous for the Cause. That the Hands behaved so impeccably is what I treasure. The Cause was in their hands, so to speak, and they protected it without advancing their own egos in the process. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilberto Simpson Sent: 22 December 2004 03:00 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:03 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:08:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel lied to. Scott I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. [...] Gilberto: There are other gender distinctions in the Bahai faith besides just the Universal House of Justice issue although that's obviously a contraversial one. But I'm not even brining up the question of whether the policy is justified. For the sake of argument, let's even assume that it is. If that's the case, then the Bahais should say We believe in certain distinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe that wisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in the distant future.. To just say we believe in absolute gender equality and leave it at that seems dishonest. Gilberto: The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai concept of righteous warfare. Scott A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. I'm not convinced that this is true. Under collective security all the nations attack the aggressor, whether they have been attacked individually or not. In some sense the bar for attacking an enemy has been lowered. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism. And I'm still unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of jihad. I've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive. What did Muhammad or Hussein do in their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies were trying to kill them. Gilberto: It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what they say they believe. Scott I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be different than another's. Gilberto: I think that's fair. And I've certainly started to realize that individual Bahais will have different takes on the Bahai writings. And some are better at articulating certain doctrines.And different Bahais put the emphasis on different aspects of the writings. But there are cases where the inconsistency I have in mind is a problem but we are talking about the same individual Gilberto: For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about Allah, and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's very nice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about Muslims. Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you just focus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you just focus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. Scott Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become very hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from accepting the new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led the fight against Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent that they misled the people they are responsible for their own actions. In the light of what they did do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that harsh? Truth is truth. If one accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are speaking truth then why do they speak harshly? To prevent others from committing the errors of the past. That is a good reason, not a harsh reason. In my opinion, of course. Gilberto: Gilberto: I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make apolologies for that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse written in neon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, but I don't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful things to say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to say about Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about Arabs and hypocritical Muslims too. And for me personally, what makes the harshness