subject:"\"Samiya proved right\""

On 3 June 2015 at 15:44, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 6/2/2015 8:35 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:
>
> Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just
> happened on its own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe
> that there must be a creator, then try praying to your creator and implore
> faith and guidance.
>
> There are a lot of other possibilities besides "just happened" and "a
> creator to whom it would make sense to pray".
>

Indeed. And if there is a creator, that just leaves the origin question
open - where did the creator come from?

To the best of my knowledge this question isn't tackled in the Bible,
Quran, etc. But you'd think that God would know his own origins, and if
he's keen for us to believe in him, he'd tell us what they are, so that
once wev'e advanced enough in scientific knowledge we'd be able to verify
what the holy writ told us (Samiya has suggested that this is the case for
some bits of physics and biology - but I don't know of any holy text that
tells us that God evolved through natural selection before he created our
universe, I'd feel more inclined to believe it if it did).

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Kim Jones

> On 3 Jun 2015, at 1:44 pm, meekerdb  wrote:
> 
>> On 6/2/2015 8:35 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:
>> Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just 
>> happened on its own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe 
>> that there must be a creator, then try praying to your creator and implore 
>> faith and guidance. 
> 
> There are a lot of other possibilities besides "just happened" and "a creator 
> to whom it would make sense to pray".
> 
> Brent

In what sense does it ever "make sense" to pray to anything? The trouble with 
this thing called praying is that it is only ever done by those who have a 
penchant for the supernatural and probably love to imagine that someone is 
actually listening to their prayer. In this way, such an individual will tend 
to believe whatever appears to be the first kind of valid "response" from God. 
It's not like you enter into an argument or anything with God. If God tells you 
after listening to your prayers that it is OK to hump a goat, then you will 
tend to feel OK about it when doing it. Real thinking involves the ability to 
dispute your perceptions and beliefs and to be able to withhold judgement. It's 
interesting to note that God never argues with Man about what he wants either, 
but merely assists Man in all ways. Paul Davies could therefore be right: an 
unknown entity capable of energy manipulation might be authoring the whole 
charade. How the fuck would anyone know? To us, such an impious demonic entity 
(if that's what they are) would be deemed to be God. 

God has this tendency, as someone once observed, to align his/her/its wishes 
"for us"exactly on the same tram-lines of our already preset desires. God only 
ever wants for Man what Man already wants for himself anyway, so God is then a 
patsy for the Mafia or the Vatican or the Taliban or whoever has the guns to 
insist on getting their own way.

If God exists, I want this being to know that I will never pray to them, 
however powerful. This is because I could be mad or at the very least 
schizophrenic and possibly even homicidal and I probably don't need any further 
high-level authorization to go out and garrott somebody. As Bruno mentioned, 
this is what Ghengis-Kahn didn't do.

Kim

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread meekerdb


On 6/2/2015 8:35 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:
Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just happened on its 
own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe that there must be a creator, 
then try praying to your creator and implore faith and guidance. 


There are a lot of other possibilities besides "just happened" and "a creator to whom it 
would make sense to pray".


Brent

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Samiya Illias

That's okay John, I understand! No single one of us really knows how much
time we have left -- nobody is promised a long life, but death is a
certainty we are bound to meet sooner or later.
I share the verses of the Quran as I believe it to be divine guidance. Why
my heart believes in the existence of God or why my heart is convinced that
the Quran is from God, I suppose I can not really translate in words just
the same as you cannot express in words why your heart refuses to believe.
I find the Quran to be a luminous book full of knowledge and wisdom beyond
what any human can author -- you consider it a human work. I try to share
verses which mention nature to help realise that a human could not have
authored such knowledge. I really don't know what would comprise evidence
for you.
Let's try a different approach. Do you really think that everything just
happened on its own and there is no creator behind it? If you do believe
that there must be a creator, then try praying to your creator and implore
faith and guidance.
If you have any specific questions, I'll try answering them, and I pray
that God helps you find faith. Amen.

Samiya

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:28 AM, John Mikes  wrote:

> Samiya, let me be rude, for an exchange:
> do you really think (and believe!) that you are a trustable advocate os
> God's will and wisdom?
> You never even justified your God's existence and activity (plans?) except
> for some threats against not believeing what you said. And I repeat:
> WHAT YOU SAID  (mostly hiding behind YOUR words) assigned to God - or the
> Script, (which is no better than your word as long as you did not justify
> the origin of it).
> And many of this "think-tank" flock of mostly believers goes for it
> endlessly.
>
> I believe I have little time left yet cannot force myself NOT to go
> through your escapades about YOUR OWN belief system without believable
> justification.
> Sorry for my outburst
> John M
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Samiya Illias 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <
>>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,
>>> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study
>>> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by
>>> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from.
>>> The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to
>>> know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!
>>>
>>>
>>> And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to
>>> the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use
>>> intelligence.
>>>
>>> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran,
>> so also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha
>> Allah' [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to
>> keep us mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only
>> to the quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah'
>> and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do
>> something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this
>> temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something,
>> however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our
>> efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This helps to keep us going even
>> when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are assured that all
>> efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the Hereafter. I
>> suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose designer
>> codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, are
>> already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control
>> and the decision is always as the designer designed it.
>> I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal
>> level, God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to
>> me, yet stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the
>> matter easy and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God]
>>
>> Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)
>>
>> In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24
>>
&

Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 14:56, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> So if contact is made to the godlikes, assuming that he, she, it, they,
> should they be worshipped? No? What if these imaginary guys did something
> really nice for us?
>
> I think we should react to them as seems appropriate under the
circumstances (like most things, really).

PS See early "Star Trek" for more details on how to react to godlike beings.

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Re: Samiya proved right

So if contact is made to the godlikes, assuming that he, she, it, they, should 
they be worshipped? No? What if these imaginary guys did something really nice 
for us?  

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 09:32 PM
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 13:28, spudboy100 via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com";>everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 wrote:

Any-vay, Dawkins, himself, conjectured that there could be god-like 
intelligences in the universe. This is a thought that is quite spooky enough, 
for my primate brain. I wonder, what would you define as a qualification for 
being a "god-like intelligence?" Aside from being well-versed in MS Excel 
spreadsheets, and being an Oracle developer?  

Being a Dungeon Master (or Mistress).

Or a 
 http://channelcrossword.wordpress.com";>setter of 
cryptic crosswords :-) 

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 13:28, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Any-vay, Dawkins, himself, conjectured that there could be god-like
> intelligences in the universe. This is a thought that is quite spooky
> enough, for my primate brain. I wonder, what would you define as a
> qualification for being a "god-like intelligence?" Aside from being
> well-versed in MS Excel spreadsheets, and being an Oracle developer?
>
> Being a Dungeon Master (or Mistress).

Or a setter of cryptic crosswords 
:-)

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Re: Samiya proved right

Any-vay, Dawkins, himself, conjectured that there could be god-like 
intelligences in the universe. This is a thought that is quite spooky enough, 
for my primate brain. I wonder, what would you define as a qualification for 
being a "god-like intelligence?" Aside from being well-versed in MS Excel 
spreadsheets, and being an Oracle developer?  

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 07:57 PM
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right





 
  
   
On 3 June 2015 at 11:51, spudboy100 via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com";>everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 wrote:



 Well, I don't guarantee you that 
it is a simulation, but I will say that its a computation, one that may or may 
not generate the matter we see and feel. Energy is movement at some point which 
makes it energetic. Davies was us a wild example of the power of things not yet 
known or under appreciated. If you can manipulate blocks of electrons,you can 
creatematter that we have never seen before. First, whomever does this has 
overcome electrical resistance tween each electron from another, then doing 
this en masse, means a world that transcends Harry Potter or LOTR, because we 
are dealing then. with a Dungeons and Dragons world of wands, and armor, and 
magic swords that cut through dragon skin. As for me, I am a 7th level magic 
user with an armor class of +6, and the ability to frost and fireballs with a 
hitpoint of 27, in full armor. 




 




That would explain a lot. Personally I'm an Elven illusionist (but that is IRL, 
rather than in D&D)

   
  
  
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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 11:51, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Well, I don't guarantee you that it is a simulation, but I will say that
> its a computation, one that may or may not generate the matter we see and
> feel. Energy is movement at some point which makes it energetic. Davies was
> us a wild example of the power of things not yet known or under
> appreciated. If you can manipulate blocks of electrons,you can creatematter
> that we have never seen before. First, whomever does this has overcome
> electrical resistance tween each electron from another, then doing this en
> masse, means a world that transcends Harry Potter or LOTR, because we are
> dealing then. with a Dungeons and Dragons world of wands, and armor, and
> magic swords that cut through dragon skin. As for me, I am a 7th level
> magic user with an armor class of +6, and the ability to frost and
> fireballs with a hitpoint of 27, in full armor.
>

That would explain a lot. Personally I'm an Elven illusionist (but that is
IRL, rather than in D&D)

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Re: Samiya proved right

Well, I don't guarantee you that it is a simulation, but I will say that its a 
computation, one that may or may not generate the matter we see and feel. 
Energy is movement at some point which makes it energetic. Davies was us a wild 
example of the power of things not yet known or under appreciated. If you can 
manipulate blocks of electrons,you can creatematter that we have never seen 
before. First, whomever does this has overcome electrical resistance tween each 
electron from another, then doing this en masse, means a world that transcends 
Harry Potter or LOTR, because we are dealing then. with a Dungeons and Dragons 
world of wands, and armor, and magic swords that cut through dragon skin. As 
for me, I am a 7th level magic user with an armor class of +6, and the ability 
to frost and fireballs with a hitpoint of 27, in full armor. 



-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Tue, Jun 2, 2015 6:23 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
   
On 3 June 2015 at 07:05, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 wrote:

   
As far as controlling things here is a short paul davies speculation on the 
universe, reality, mind.  
   


http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/06/todays-galaxy-insight-an-et-technology-beyond-matter.html
   
  


 


I'm reliably informed that we can't do anything without matter, so that is 
clearly nonsense. 

   




 Here is another guy's but be careful, he might be a shia!   

http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Simulation/Universe/   


   
  


Interesting summary. Did they mention the breakdown of Lorentz invariance? I 
guess the cosmoc ray business would cover that. I would say that there isnt' a 
huge difference between a numerically simulated universe and Max Tegmark's 
mathematical universe hypothesis (except in the simulation we assume an 
underlying computer made of ... well, something that isn't just software. But 
suppose the nesting goes on forever - turtles all the way down, as the writer 
of LOGO might have put it?)
   
  
 
  
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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 07:05, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> As far as controlling things here is a short paul davies speculation on
> the universe, reality, mind.
>
> http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/06/todays-galaxy-insight-an-et-technology-beyond-matter.html
>

I'm reliably informed that we can't do anything without matter, so that is
clearly nonsense.

>
>   Here is another guy's but be careful, he might be a shia!
> http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Simulation/Universe/
>
> Interesting summary. Did they mention the breakdown of Lorentz invariance?
I guess the cosmoc ray business would cover that. I would say that there
isnt' a huge difference between a numerically simulated universe and Max
Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis (except in the simulation we
assume an underlying computer made of ... well, something that isn't just
software. But suppose the nesting goes on forever - turtles all the way
down, as the writer of LOGO might have put it?)

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou



> On 3 Jun 2015, at 3:47 am, Samiya Illias  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 02-Jun-2015, at 10:23 pm, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:18, Samiya Illias wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias  
 wrote:
 
 
> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by 
> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made 
> from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we 
> need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!
 And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to 
 the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use 
 intelligence. 
>>> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so 
>>> also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah' 
>>> [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us 
>>> mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the 
>>> quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma 
>>> Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do 
>>> something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this 
>>> temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something, 
>>> however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our 
>>> efforts, is determined and decreed by God.
>> 
>> Imagine you convince everybody of this. Then you will convince also the 
>> percentage of human having sadical pulse (for a reason or another). So there 
>> is a risk that those people believing everything is decreed by God will 
>> interpret their sadical pulse as God anger and willingfulness to punish. 
> 
> Regarding the terrible trial of the bani Israel (children of Prophet Jacob), 
> it is mentioned in the Quran: 
> Holy Quran 7:141
> --
> وَإِذْ أَنْجَيْنَاكُمْ مِنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ ۖ 
> يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ ۚ وَفِي ذَٰلِكُمْ 
> بَلَاءٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَظِيمٌ
> 
> And [recall, O Children of Israel], when We saved you from the people of 
> Pharaoh, [who were] afflicting you with the worst torment - killing your sons 
> and keeping your women alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord. 

You decide what you think are good and just acts, and then try to find evidence 
that God measures up to your moral standards. But if you were consistent you 
would just say that no matter who God causes to suffer through action or 
omission, that's fine because he's God

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Kim Jones



> On 2 Jun 2015, at 12:18 pm, Samiya Illias  wrote:
> 
> Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how 
> earnestly we resolve to do something or how hard we tried, the decision is 
> always with Allah. In this temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do 
> or not do something, however whether we are able to do it or not, and the 
> outcome of our efforts, is determined and decreed by God.


So this must be what those Afghani tribesmen were muttering to each other about 
as they took turns at humping a goat in the desert in that clip I saw on You 
Tube the other day

Kim

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 3 June 2015 at 05:23, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

>
> If not you will get a God capable of making 2 odd, and that's too odd!
>
> That's rather good. It made me laugh!

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread John Mikes

Samiya, let me be rude, for an exchange:
do you really think (and believe!) that you are a trustable advocate os
God's will and wisdom?
You never even justified your God's existence and activity (plans?) except
for some threats against not believeing what you said. And I repeat:
WHAT YOU SAID  (mostly hiding behind YOUR words) assigned to God - or the
Script, (which is no better than your word as long as you did not justify
the origin of it).
And many of this "think-tank" flock of mostly believers goes for it
endlessly.

I believe I have little time left yet cannot force myself NOT to go through
your escapades about YOUR OWN belief system without believable
justification.
Sorry for my outburst
John M

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Samiya Illias 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <
>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,
>> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study
>> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by
>> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from.
>> The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to
>> know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!
>>
>>
>> And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to
>> the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use
>> intelligence.
>>
>> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so
> also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah'
> [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us
> mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the
> quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma
> Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do
> something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this
> temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something,
> however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our
> efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This helps to keep us going even
> when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are assured that all
> efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the Hereafter. I
> suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose designer
> codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, are
> already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control
> and the decision is always as the designer designed it.
> I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal
> level, God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to
> me, yet stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the
> matter easy and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God]
>
> Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)
> In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24
>
> Samiya
>
>
>> Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that
>> matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged
>> individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.
>>
>> Samiya
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -Original Message-
>> From: Samiya Illias 
>> To: everything-list 
>> Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
>> Subject: Re: Samiya proved right
>>
>>   God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm
>> sure there will be no injustice done to anybody.
>>  The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own
>> selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
>> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
>> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
>> throughout the heavens and earth.
>>  Samiya
>>
>> On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on
>> the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in
>> a non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going
>> to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and
>> then I erased his mem

Re: Samiya proved right

Well, it halted intellectual progress (and governmental) progress, by 
submitting to god's will and shrugging one's shoulders. Mind you, everyone in 
the past and today does this because we cannot rule reality. The American 
phrase, "it is what it is," we can all hear every day. Now why we may ask 
ourselves, did Muslim civilization slide, while Europe, rose and China, after 
sending its ships round the world achieved, and then declined? The best guess 
is that although piety may keep a person humble, it may also make someone, 
incurious. "Why ask? It's God's will! What can we do?" The Greeks also rose and 
fell. China under the Ming, I believe, turned inward after the Emperors 
command, and nobody could rise out of what their fathers did to earn a living. 
This killed China's rise to power, even after success with technology. 


As far as controlling things here is a short paul davies speculation on the 
universe, reality, mind.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/06/todays-galaxy-insight-an-et-technology-beyond-matter.html


 Here is another guy's but be careful, he might be a shia!
http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Simulation/Universe/
 




-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Mon, Jun 1, 2015 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
  
   
   
On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias  
wrote:

 
 

   
   

On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

   
   

 Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. 
So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon 
is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is 
in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! 
 
 

   
And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. 
  
   
  
 


Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so also 
is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah' [if God 
wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us mindful of 
the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the quantum level, 
but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds 
us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do something or how hard we 
tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this temporal realm, we can only 
'choose' to try to do or not do something, however whether we are able to do it 
or not, and the outcome of our efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This 
helps to keep us going even when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are 
assured that all efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the 
Hereafter. I suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose 
designer codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, 
are already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control 
and the decision is always as the designer designed it. 

I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal level, 
God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to me, yet 
stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the matter easy and 
manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God] 

 


Ma Sha Allah:  http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)  



In Sha Allah:  http://quran.com/18/23-24  


 


Samiya 

 

 
  
  
Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.   
  
 

  
   Samiya

 
 
  
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
-Original Message- 
 From: Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com>         
 To: everything-list < everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am 
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right 
  
  
   

 God created humans and knows everything ab

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Samiya Illias



> On 02-Jun-2015, at 10:23 pm, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:18, Samiya Illias wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
>>>> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
>>>> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by 
>>>> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made 
>>>> from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we 
>>>> need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!
>>> And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
>>> repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. 
>> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so 
>> also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah' 
>> [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us 
>> mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the 
>> quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma 
>> Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do 
>> something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this 
>> temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something, 
>> however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our efforts, 
>> is determined and decreed by God.
> 
> Imagine you convince everybody of this. Then you will convince also the 
> percentage of human having sadical pulse (for a reason or another). So there 
> is a risk that those people believing everything is decreed by God will 
> interpret their sadical pulse as God anger and willingfulness to punish. 

Regarding the terrible trial of the bani Israel (children of Prophet Jacob), it 
is mentioned in the Quran: 
Holy Quran 7:141
--
وَإِذْ أَنْجَيْنَاكُمْ مِنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ ۖ 
يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ ۚ وَفِي ذَٰلِكُمْ 
بَلَاءٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَظِيمٌ

And [recall, O Children of Israel], when We saved you from the people of 
Pharaoh, [who were] afflicting you with the worst torment - killing your sons 
and keeping your women alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord. 

Samiya 

> 
> You get the Ghengis Khan phenomena, who would have said, after having been 
> asked why he raped, tortured and burned a whole land, "---I don't know what 
> those people committed, but I am sure they committed a very great sin for God 
> sending me as a punishment.
> 
> What you say is again of the type G* \ G. I think. It is true, but once said: 
> it becomes false, and that is a break where the devil can play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> This helps to keep us going even when things don't seem to turn out right, 
>> as we are assured that all efforts are being recorded and will be 
>> compensated in the Hereafter. I suppose one way to understand it is in terms 
>> of a software whose designer codes in all outcomes, and the results, though 
>> based on user-choices, are already coded in by the designer. The designer is 
>> always in full control and the decision is always as the designer designed 
>> it. 
> 
> To make sense of God, you need to be careful as omniscience is by itself 
> already contradictory (I can give references). 
> If not you will get a God capable of making 2 odd, and that's too odd!
> 
> 
>> I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal level, 
>> God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to me, yet 
>> stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the matter easy 
>> and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God] 
> 
> Good.
> 
> God is good for personal use only. 
> 
> Only those who lack faith try to convince or eliminate the others. 
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
>> 
>> Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31) 
>> In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24 
>> 
>> Samiya 
>>  
>>> Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
>>> matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
&

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-02 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 02 Jun 2015, at 04:18, Samiya Illias wrote:




On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias > wrote:



On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List > wrote:


Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,  
Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why  
study things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is  
me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or  
what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone and created  
by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands,  
and He is the best judge to know!



And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding  
to the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use  
intelligence.


Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the  
Quran, so also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the  
'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as  
a reminder to keep us mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that  
it applies not only to the quantum level, but cascades on to  
everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma Sha Allah' reminds us that  
no matter how earnestly we resolve to do something or how hard we  
tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this temporal realm, we  
can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something, however whether  
we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our efforts, is  
determined and decreed by God.


Imagine you convince everybody of this. Then you will convince also  
the percentage of human having sadical pulse (for a reason or  
another). So there is a risk that those people believing everything is  
decreed by God will interpret their sadical pulse as God anger and  
willingfulness to punish.


You get the Ghengis Khan phenomena, who would have said, after having  
been asked why he raped, tortured and burned a whole land, "---I don't  
know what those people committed, but I am sure they committed a very  
great sin for God sending me as a punishment.


What you say is again of the type G* \ G. I think. It is true, but  
once said: it becomes false, and that is a break where the devil can  
play.








This helps to keep us going even when things don't seem to turn out  
right, as we are assured that all efforts are being recorded and  
will be compensated in the Hereafter. I suppose one way to  
understand it is in terms of a software whose designer codes in all  
outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, are already  
coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control and  
the decision is always as the designer designed it.


To make sense of God, you need to be careful as omniscience is by  
itself already contradictory (I can give references).

If not you will get a God capable of making 2 odd, and that's too odd!


I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal  
level, God's help and facilitation of matters that seem  
insurmountable to me, yet stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in  
earnestness makes the matter easy and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All  
Praise and Thanks to God]


Good.

God is good for personal use only.

Only those who lack faith try to convince or eliminate the others.

Bruno




Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q= 
$yA#(5:48:31)

In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24

Samiya

Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for  
that matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all  
be judged individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.


Samiya





-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm  
sure there will be no injustice done to anybody.
The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own  
selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. ,  
let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that  
reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of  
everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth.

Samiya

On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:

"No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on  
the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try  
that in a non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim  
that I was going to murder him if he went through with his planned  
visit to Midsomer - and then I erased his memory of our meeting. So  
clearly his murder is all his fault, and not mine." I'm not sure  
the defence would get very far on that basis.


If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven an

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-01 Thread LizR

On 2 June 2015 at 14:18, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so
> also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah'
> [if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us
> mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the
> quantum level, but cascades on to everything.
>

The Quran mentions the Uncertainty Principle???

(If that is really so, then I may be forced to revise my agnosticism...)

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-06-01 Thread Samiya Illias

On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Samiya Illias 
wrote:

>
>
> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <
> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah,
> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study
> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by
> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from.
> The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to
> know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know!
>
>
> And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to
> the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use
> intelligence.
>
> Just as contemplation and use of intelligence is advised in the Quran, so
also is it advised to say 'In Sha Allah'. I understand the 'In Sha Allah'
[if God wills] and 'Ma Sha Allah' [as God willed] as a reminder to keep us
mindful of the Uncertainty Principle, in that it applies not only to the
quantum level, but cascades on to everything. Saying 'In Sha Allah' and 'Ma
Sha Allah' reminds us that no matter how earnestly we resolve to do
something or how hard we tried, the decision is always with Allah. In this
temporal realm, we can only 'choose' to try to do or not do something,
however whether we are able to do it or not, and the outcome of our
efforts, is determined and decreed by God. This helps to keep us going even
when things don't seem to turn out right, as we are assured that all
efforts are being recorded and will be compensated in the Hereafter. I
suppose one way to understand it is in terms of a software whose designer
codes in all outcomes, and the results, though based on user-choices, are
already coded in by the designer. The designer is always in full control
and the decision is always as the designer designed it.
I suppose I should acknowledge here that, I do find, on the personal level,
God's help and facilitation of matters that seem insurmountable to me, yet
stating 'In Sha Allah' [if God wills] in earnestness makes the matter easy
and manageable. Alhamdolillah [All Praise and Thanks to God]

Ma Sha Allah: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$yA#(5:48:31)
In Sha Allah: http://quran.com/18/23-24

Samiya


> Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that
> matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged
> individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.
>
> Samiya
>
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
> From: Samiya Illias 
> To: everything-list 
> Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
> Subject: Re: Samiya proved right
>
>   God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm
> sure there will be no injustice done to anybody.
>  The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves:
> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
> throughout the heavens and earth.
>  Samiya
>
> On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on
> the basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in
> a non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going
> to murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and
> then I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his
> fault, and not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that
> basis.
>
>  If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell
> really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as
> Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge
> on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he
> fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made
> me do!" he says as he tortures you.
>
>
>  On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou < stath...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
>>>
>>>>   On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>

Re: Samiya proved right

On 1 June 2015 at 14:12, Samiya Illias  wrote:

> On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 4:01 AM, LizR  wrote:
>
>> On 31 May 2015 at 03:42, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate
>>> the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he
>>> is talking about.
>>>
>>> Obviously for this to be a meaningful exercise it should be a
>> double-blind test in which various sacred texts which give similar
>> statements that could be seen as scientific are compared. One would need
>> Biblical scholars, experts in the Norse Eddas, Buddhists and so on to take
>> what they consider meaningful statements, suitably agnostic scholars to
>> translate them if necessary, historians to give suitable interpretations to
>> place them into context, and then a group of people with scientific
>> knowledge, and no knowledge of their origin, to assign a score for how well
>> them measure up. Plus some made up / contemporary statements should be
>> thrown in for comparison.
>>
>
> It doesn't have to be that complicated, though it would be wonderful if
> such a task is undertaken. The Quran, scientific research and other
> relevant material is easily accessible to all over the Internet now. Each
> literate individual with access to these resources can initiate their own
> personal study. All it really requires is an earnest desire to comprehend
> what might be a message from God.
>
> If it isn't that complicated, the results will be meaningless. That is the
point of double blind tests - to avoid preconception and bias on the part
of the experimenters and the experimental subjects.

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-31 Thread Kim Jones

> On 31 May 2015, at 9:03 am, LizR  wrote:
> 
>> On 31 May 2015 at 03:24, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> 
>> God created humans

How do you know FFS? There are by now a few credible alternative scenarios. 
Why does G have to be the grandmother of every bloody thing? Can't someone or 
something else be responsible for humans other than God? Personally, I think G 
would be embarrassed to be associated with the likes of humans. 

If God created humans then he/she/it is certainly something of an 
underachiever. Just look at the world.

>> and knows everything about us and within us.

You are starting to make God sound almost as big as the NSA and Google. You 
have to come up to speed on this issue. God doesn't know as much as the NSA 
about you, Samiya. 

>> I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. 

Ha hahaaa,, splutter, gurgle, cough, gasp

>> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
>> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming 
>> to know another human.

So what is it, HUMAN, that you know about the doings and otherwise of those who 
are not, like yourself, human? You give yourself airs and graces. You are 
making all of this up as you go along. 

>> We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is 
>> aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. 

You are starting to sound like His Eminence The Very Reverend Cardinal George 
Pell The Smell From Hell who finally has Pope Bergoglio cornered on the Horns 
of the Devil. You religious people have all had your brains hijacked by 
something truly evil that makes you think you know something about what no 
human can possibly know. You talk as though you have God in your hip pocket and 
you can pull him/her/it out and like a ventriloquist, put words in the mouth of 
the God sock puppet.

But they are your words, you mental midget. Nobody on this list gives a flying 
fuck about any Holy Book, their own or anyone else's. We eat Holy books on our 
cornflakes for breakfast. You can get at least ten minute's warmth out of a 
Qu'ran or a St James in the dead of winter.

>  
> You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to 
> demonstrate. 
> 

To say the bloody least

Kim

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-31 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Monday, June 1, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Stathis Papaioannou  > wrote:
>
>> On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes > > wrote:
>> > LizR:
>> > I find it "funny" if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the
>> > world?) take your
>> >
>> > "...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
>> > demonstrate."
>> >
>> > seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview
>> > debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well.
>> > So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings',
>> > 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval
>> inhumanities, as
>> > pertaining to the "goodness" of the God believed by such perpetrators.
>> They
>> > believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal
>> bliss in
>> > Heaven.
>> > Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship
>> etc.
>> > JM
>>
>> I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and
>> stonings are good, then they are good, by definition.
>>
>
> I hope that was a question.
> The issues that J Mikes has raised are of an organisational nature, to be
> implemented by governments after legal evaluation for the maintenance of
> justice in society. I've gone into the details and shared my understanding
> of the Quranic injunctions earlier, hence I will not go into those details
> again.
> However, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the actions
> which are required of individuals seeking 'eternal bliss in Heaven', some
> of which are: respecting and honouring parents; being kind and caring to
> family, relatives, friends, neighbours, travellers, etc.; being
> compassionate towards the poor: feeding the hungry, helping people pay off
> their debts, freeing the slaves; taking care of orphans and so on.
> Only recently I was studying some verses and researching the Internet for
> relevant data, and I was surprised to learn that though slavery was
> abolished years ago, yet 21-36 million people are still enslaved in various
> forms and guises. This might be of interest:
>
> World Hunger & Slavery
> *Population Growth & Food Resources*
> *Morality & Homicide*
>
> *Abstract*
> Quran (6:151, 17:30-31) identifies poverty as the reason for hunger, and
> dismisses the notion that population growth leads to hunger, explicitly
> prohibiting the killing of children due to or out of fear of poverty. At
> another place, the Quran (Chapter 90) exhorts the free citizens to reduce
> inequality by freeing slaves and feeding the hungry, stating that these are
> the difficult yet required things to do. Quran (2:177) lists giving of
> wealth to the needy and freeing of slaves among the righteous deeds.
>
> According to the statistics, the agricultural yields are more than enough
> for the current and forecasted world population, yet one in every nine
> people on our planet suffers hunger every day! Though decrease in
> population growth is promoted as a remedy to the problem, yet no direct
> correlation has been found between population density and hunger. Unjust
> economic systems lead to Poverty and Inequality,  which in turn cause
> Hunger, Indebtedness and Enslavement!
>
> An estimated 21 - 36 million people are enslaved today. Though legal
> slavery was finally banished from all countries in the world by 1981, yet
> its only changed in title and form - humans continue to be enslaved by
> fellow human beings.
>
> This article explores the meaning of the divine instruction and guidance
> in terms of the relevant information available.
> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/05/world-hunger-slavery.html
>

What you're doing is deciding (using your own mind) what is right, then
searching in the Quran to see if it agrees with you. But that is not how it
works if the Quran is God's word and God is always right. Instead, if you
find something in the Quran that contradicts you, you should admit that you
were wrong. For example, if you think slavery is wrong but it can be shown
to you that the Quran says slavery is right, then you should either change
your view of the morality of slavery or admit that you are against God.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-31 Thread Samiya Illias

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Stathis Papaioannou 
wrote:

> On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes  wrote:
> > LizR:
> > I find it "funny" if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the
> > world?) take your
> >
> > "...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
> > demonstrate."
> >
> > seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview
> > debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well.
> > So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings',
> > 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval
> inhumanities, as
> > pertaining to the "goodness" of the God believed by such perpetrators.
> They
> > believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal
> bliss in
> > Heaven.
> > Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship
> etc.
> > JM
>
> I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and
> stonings are good, then they are good, by definition.
>

I hope that was a question.
The issues that J Mikes has raised are of an organisational nature, to be
implemented by governments after legal evaluation for the maintenance of
justice in society. I've gone into the details and shared my understanding
of the Quranic injunctions earlier, hence I will not go into those details
again.
However, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the actions
which are required of individuals seeking 'eternal bliss in Heaven', some
of which are: respecting and honouring parents; being kind and caring to
family, relatives, friends, neighbours, travellers, etc.; being
compassionate towards the poor: feeding the hungry, helping people pay off
their debts, freeing the slaves; taking care of orphans and so on.
Only recently I was studying some verses and researching the Internet for
relevant data, and I was surprised to learn that though slavery was
abolished years ago, yet 21-36 million people are still enslaved in various
forms and guises. This might be of interest:

World Hunger & Slavery
*Population Growth & Food Resources*
*Morality & Homicide*

*Abstract*
Quran (6:151, 17:30-31) identifies poverty as the reason for hunger, and
dismisses the notion that population growth leads to hunger, explicitly
prohibiting the killing of children due to or out of fear of poverty. At
another place, the Quran (Chapter 90) exhorts the free citizens to reduce
inequality by freeing slaves and feeding the hungry, stating that these are
the difficult yet required things to do. Quran (2:177) lists giving of
wealth to the needy and freeing of slaves among the righteous deeds.

According to the statistics, the agricultural yields are more than enough
for the current and forecasted world population, yet one in every nine
people on our planet suffers hunger every day! Though decrease in
population growth is promoted as a remedy to the problem, yet no direct
correlation has been found between population density and hunger. Unjust
economic systems lead to Poverty and Inequality,  which in turn cause
Hunger, Indebtedness and Enslavement!

An estimated 21 - 36 million people are enslaved today. Though legal
slavery was finally banished from all countries in the world by 1981, yet
its only changed in title and form - humans continue to be enslaved by
fellow human beings.

This article explores the meaning of the divine instruction and guidance in
terms of the relevant information available.
http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/05/world-hunger-slavery.html

Samiya

>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> --
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-31 Thread Samiya Illias

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 4:01 AM, LizR  wrote:

> On 31 May 2015 at 03:42, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>>
>> Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate
>> the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he
>> is talking about.
>>
>> Obviously for this to be a meaningful exercise it should be a
> double-blind test in which various sacred texts which give similar
> statements that could be seen as scientific are compared. One would need
> Biblical scholars, experts in the Norse Eddas, Buddhists and so on to take
> what they consider meaningful statements, suitably agnostic scholars to
> translate them if necessary, historians to give suitable interpretations to
> place them into context, and then a group of people with scientific
> knowledge, and no knowledge of their origin, to assign a score for how well
> them measure up. Plus some made up / contemporary statements should be
> thrown in for comparison.
>

It doesn't have to be that complicated, though it would be wonderful if
such a task is undertaken. The Quran, scientific research and other
relevant material is easily accessible to all over the Internet now. Each
literate individual with access to these resources can initiate their own
personal study. All it really requires is an earnest desire to comprehend
what might be a message from God.

Samiya


>
> Taking the word of people who already believe a particular result that the
> statements from their preferred sacred texts have been correctly
> translated, interpreted and historically contextualised will not produce
> any meaningful data.
>
>  --
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Re: Samiya proved right

On 1 June 2015 at 12:32, Stathis Papaioannou  wrote:

> On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes  wrote:
> > LizR:
> > I find it "funny" if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the
> > world?) take your
> >
> > "...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
> > demonstrate."
> >
> > seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview
> > debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well.
> > So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings',
> > 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval
> inhumanities, as
> > pertaining to the "goodness" of the God believed by such perpetrators.
> They
> > believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal
> bliss in
> > Heaven.
> > Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship
> etc.
> > JM
>
> I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and
> stonings are good, then they are good, by definition.
>
> I suppose if there really is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell (though I find
the idea abhorent and illogical that any loving God would allow Hell to
exist) then it's possible to come up with a rational explanation for why
they might be good. As Larry Niven had a character suggest in a short
story, a rational reason for suicide would be that there really is a Hell,
and it gets worst the longer you put off going there,

"Abolish all doubt and what's left is not faith, but absolute heartless
conviction."
 -- Lesley Hazleton, author of 'The First Muslim,' a new look at the life
of Muhammad.

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-31 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes  wrote:
> LizR:
> I find it "funny" if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the
> world?) take your
>
> "...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
> demonstrate."
>
> seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview
> debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well.
> So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings',
> 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as
> pertaining to the "goodness" of the God believed by such perpetrators. They
> believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in
> Heaven.
> Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc.
> JM

I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and
stonings are good, then they are good, by definition.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: Samiya proved right

Well, Sean Pertwee, in this prequel to Batman, called Gotham, envisages the 
Batman character, Alfred the butler, taking on the role of raising an orphaned 
Bruce Wayne. The series, Gotham is a fully realized world, as they say, where  
the earth of Gotham City is not the earth that we inhabit in this list. No NYC, 
but instead, a larger, richer, and far, more, corrupt, Gotham. Think Gotham as 
a mix of the modern era, with the criminal activities, of Chicago during 
Prohibition, and the drug cartel wars we see in Mexico today. Instead of 
costumed villains and heroes, crime bosses are mafia Dons, who own and 
blackmail the local mayor, city council, and giant corporations. In this 
rendition, Alfred, is not only the butler, but really was the personal security 
guy, of Bruce's parents (billionaires) with a military SAS background. The bad 
guys like Penguin, Riddler, and Joker, have very modest starts on their climb 
to power. The Penguin, as a waiter who becomes a snitch, playing one mafia don, 
against another, in his ascent in Gotham. You might like it, depending on mood, 
time, interests, etc. More complex characterization and story arc, including 
detective Gordon, destined to rise to be police commissioner. High quality 
acting and cinematics, too.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sun, May 31, 2015 06:27 PM
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right





 
  
   
On 1 June 2015 at 02:36, spudboy100 via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com";>everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 wrote:



 John Pertwee or 
Tom Baker to the rescue! Behold, The Master has initiated Time Ram! Roger 
Delgado at the charge. Did you know Pertwee's son play's Alfred the Butler on 
Gotham? SPECTRE has activated Project Flemming to extort the world-and cause 
true global warming :-)



 




In the story I'm thinking of it was Patrick Troughton. No I didn't know about 
that particular role, but I have come across Sean in various parts including 
Lestrade in "Elementary"
 




   
  
  
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 https://groups.google.com/d/optout";>https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 
 



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Re: Samiya proved right

On 1 June 2015 at 02:36, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> John Pertwee or Tom Baker to the rescue! Behold, The Master has initiated
> Time Ram! Roger Delgado at the charge. Did you know Pertwee's son play's
> Alfred the Butler on Gotham? SPECTRE has activated Project Flemming to
> extort the world-and cause true global warming :-)


In the story I'm thinking of it was Patrick Troughton. No I didn't know
about that particular role, but I have come across Sean in various parts
including Lestrade in "Elementary"

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 1 June 2015 at 08:37, John Mikes  wrote:

> LizR:
> I find it "funny" if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the
> world?) take your
>
> *"...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
> demonstrate." *
>
> seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview
> debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well.
>

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you talking about some
of the things that have been labelled religions at times on this list (like
Materialism, comp etc) or are we still on the more traditional religions?


> So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings',
> 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities,
> as pertaining to the "goodness" of the God believed by such perpetrators.
> They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal
> bliss in Heaven.
> Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship
> etc.
>
> I agree - there is no justification for such activities, carried out in
the name of religion, ideology or anything else.

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-31 Thread John Mikes

LizR:
I find it "funny" if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the
world?) take your

*"...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
demonstrate." *

seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview
debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well.
So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings',
'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities,
as pertaining to the "goodness" of the God believed by such perpetrators.
They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal
bliss in Heaven.
Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc.
JM



On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 7:03 PM, LizR  wrote:

> On 31 May 2015 at 03:24, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>>
>> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure
>> there will be no injustice done to anybody.
>> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves:
>> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
>> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
>> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
>> throughout the heavens and earth.
>>
>
> You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
> demonstrate.
>
>  --
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Re: Samiya proved right

John Pertwee or Tom Baker to the rescue! Behold, The Master has initiated Time 
Ram! Roger Delgado at the charge. Did you know Pertwee's son play's Alfred the 
Butler on Gotham? SPECTRE has activated Project Flemming to extort the 
world-and cause true global warming :-)
 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sun, May 31, 2015 12:18 am
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
PS That "set off volcanoes from a distance as a weapon" idea was used in a Dr 
Who story in the 1960s. (Not sure if any of Bond's enemies ever got around to 
that one...)  
  
  
   
  
 
  
 --  
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 For more options, visit  https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
 

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Re: Samiya proved right

No No No!
You've all got it wrong again! It's not the Trump of Doom, you sillies. It's 
the Doom of Trump! See?

 

 
http://nypost.com/2015/05/30/stop-pretending-donald-trump-is-not-running-for-president/

 

-Original Message-
From: Kim Jones 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:47 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


Anyway, look - screw all this tedious God stuff already.  Meanwhile back on 
topic about The Trump of Doom: 
  
 
 
  http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
Kim 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
  
   

On 31 May 2015, at 11:56 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
  
   
On 31 May 2015 at 11:14, Stathis Papaioannou  
wrote:

 On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
  
   

God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody. 

The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to 
know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, 
sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
heavens and earth. 

Samiya 
   
  
  
   
  
 
Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone 
for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine.
 


If a human demands worship and claims to love everyone while punishing them for 
going against his laws, we call him a narcissistic psychopath. But when God 
does it, that's fine. 
 

   
  
 
 
  
 
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 For more options, visit  https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
 
   
  
  
  


 
  
   

 
  
   Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL  
  
   

   
   
Email:  kimjo...@ozemail.com.au   
   
Mobile:0450 963 719   
   
Landline: 02 9389 4239   
   
Web:http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com   
   

   
   
“I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of dangerous people out there. I 
am saying a lot of them are in government" - Russell Brand

 


 
 
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

   
   
   
 
  
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 For more options, visit  https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
 

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Re: Samiya proved right

Agreed. Philosopher, John Leslie, uses the terms "ethical requiredness," when 
applying this to "God." It's somehow easier for most, emotionally, simply to 
drop the God thing, as an expectation in their lives. High expectations can 
mean high disappointments. Physicist, Guilio Prisco suggests that humanities 
descendents take up the burden of "God" as an idea, on making things better in 
life. 
 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Stathis Papaioannou 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
 
On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: 
 
  
   
God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody.
   
The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to 
know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, 
sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
heavens and earth.
   
Samiya
  
 
 
  
 
 
Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone 
for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine.
 
 
--  
Stathis Papaioannou 
  
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Re: Samiya proved right

Its probably just the way I remembered it.
 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
   
On 31 May 2015 at 03:32, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 wrote:

 Twas brillig
 as slithey toves
 did gyre and gimble in the wabe
 all mimsy
 were the borogroves
 as the ramprats
 outgrabe
 


I'm not sure why you (mis)quoted this, but from memory the correct version is 
more like this: 
 


Twas brillig, and the slithy toves 


Did gyre and gimbal in the wabe 


All mimsey were the borogroves 


And the mome raths outgrabe 
 


The rest I'm less certain about. (Something about "Beware the Bandersnatch my 
son - the claws that catch, the jaws that bite...") 
 

   
But anyway, I'd like to enter it into my "scientific meaning found in sacred 
texts" experiment.   
  
 
  
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Re: Samiya proved right

Well, I am not supporting that "life is an illusion," sort of thing, because 
simply put, if one drops a hammer on one's toes, the pain is still there, 
whether the "world" is real or not. What I suggest is that it's a great 
computation, maybe a simulation, maybe the "real" combined with a sim, maybe 
something we do not have a term for as yet?* Certainly, if you gather ideas 
from physicists and philosophers over at the FQXI website (Funded by the 
Templeton Foundation) who come up with very esoteric ideas that somehow sound 
convincing, to me.  

The old religious guys of centuries ago did their best. However, their beliefs 
that they met with angels in caves or God on a mountain top, seem less likely 
to me. In fact, for me, the more plausible God and angels now seem, the less 
likely the old guys actually met with somebody real. Instead of God I could say 
Mind, and instead of angels, I could say AI's/software personalities, the soul 
becomes a mind clone, etc. 

*The universe looks more like a great thought then a great machine." 
-Physicist, James Jeans. 

And, philosophers of science like John Leslie, many great thoughts, many great 
machines, maybe at some point these become the same, depending on who is 
thinking, such...thoughts. 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
That is the analogy I also used to understand and explain with some years ago. 
It helps to make sense of it.  
 
However, the Quran states that it has been created in Truth / Reality, hence I 
hesitate to use that analogy.  
 
  
 
 
Samiya  
 
  
On 31-May-2015, at 1:13 am, spudboy100 via Everything List <  
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:  
  
 
 
  
   Well, it sort of sabotaged technological progress for what was then 
excellent, progress. It's a reasonable thing to say, the we need God and He 
doesn't need us. However, just by the way the world works, the lack of cause 
and effect in personal lives, disease, earthquakes, etc. I make no claims about 
God. It might be a better neutral way to describe God as a Mind, and worry 
about how we think about it later. This is probably trivial and shallow, but I 
try to look at things from the purely human point of view-however miserable and 
flawed humans are. Moreover, I see the universe as increasingly looking like a 
great program, or a simulation. Thus, the actually cosmology of the astronomers 
becomes a secondary thing, because no matter what it's shape or age, it all 
functions like a computation.  
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
-Original Message- 
 From: Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> 
 To: everything-list < everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 1:05 pm 
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right 
  
  
   

 


 
 On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List < 
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: 
 


 
  Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. 
So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon 
is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is 
in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! 
 
 
  

And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. 

 


 Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. 

 


 Samiya  
 
  

 


 


 


 -Original Message- 
 From: Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> 
 To: everything-list <     everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am 
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right 
 
 
  
   
 God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody.
   
 The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to 
know anothe

Re: Samiya proved right

PS That "set off volcanoes from a distance as a weapon" idea was used in a
Dr Who story in the 1960s. (Not sure if any of Bond's enemies ever got
around to that one...)

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 31 May 2015 at 15:47, Kim Jones  wrote:

> Anyway, look - screw all this tedious God stuff already.  Meanwhile back
> on topic about The Trump of Doom:
>
> http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html
>
> Wow. Mind you, I suspect that America has been manipulating the climate
for decades (as has everyone else).

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-30 Thread Kim Jones

Anyway, look - screw all this tedious God stuff already.  Meanwhile back on 
topic about The Trump of Doom:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html 



Kim




> On 31 May 2015, at 11:56 am, LizR  wrote:
> 
> On 31 May 2015 at 11:14, Stathis Papaioannou  > wrote:
> On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias  > wrote:
> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure 
> there will be no injustice done to anybody. 
> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming 
> to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created 
> us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
> heavens and earth. 
> Samiya 
> 
> Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone 
> for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine. 
> 
> If a human demands worship and claims to love everyone while punishing them 
> for going against his laws, we call him a narcissistic psychopath. But when 
> God does it, that's fine.
> 
> 
> -- 
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> .

Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL

Email:  kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
Mobile:0450 963 719
Landline: 02 9389 4239
Web:http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com

“I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of dangerous people out there. I am saying a 
lot of them are in government" - Russell Brand





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Re: Samiya proved right

On 31 May 2015 at 11:14, Stathis Papaioannou  wrote:

> On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure
>> there will be no injustice done to anybody.
>> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves:
>> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
>> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
>> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
>> throughout the heavens and earth.
>> Samiya
>>
>
> Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures
> someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine.
>
> If a human demands worship and claims to love everyone while punishing
them for going against his laws, we call him a narcissistic psychopath. But
when God does it, that's fine.

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:

> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure
> there will be no injustice done to anybody.
> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves:
> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
> throughout the heavens and earth.
> Samiya
>

Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures
someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 31 May 2015 at 03:32, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Twas brillig
> as slithey toves
> did gyre and gimble in the wabe
> all mimsy
> were the borogroves
> as the ramprats
> outgrabe
>
> I'm not sure why you (mis)quoted this, but from memory the correct version
is more like this:

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimbal in the wabe
All mimsey were the borogroves
And the mome raths outgrabe

The rest I'm less certain about. (Something about "Beware the Bandersnatch
my son - the claws that catch, the jaws that bite...")

But anyway, I'd like to enter it into my "scientific meaning found in
sacred texts" experiment.

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 31 May 2015 at 03:24, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure
> there will be no injustice done to anybody.
> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves:
> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone
> claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One
> who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden
> throughout the heavens and earth.
>

You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to
demonstrate.

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 31 May 2015 at 03:42, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
> Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate
> the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he
> is talking about.
>
> Obviously for this to be a meaningful exercise it should be a double-blind
test in which various sacred texts which give similar statements that could
be seen as scientific are compared. One would need Biblical scholars,
experts in the Norse Eddas, Buddhists and so on to take what they consider
meaningful statements, suitably agnostic scholars to translate them if
necessary, historians to give suitable interpretations to place them into
context, and then a group of people with scientific knowledge, and no
knowledge of their origin, to assign a score for how well them measure up.
Plus some made up / contemporary statements should be thrown in for
comparison.

Taking the word of people who already believe a particular result that the
statements from their preferred sacred texts have been correctly
translated, interpreted and historically contextualised will not produce
any meaningful data.

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Re: Samiya proved right

That is the analogy I also used to understand and explain with some years ago. 
It helps to make sense of it. 
However, the Quran states that it has been created in Truth / Reality, hence I 
hesitate to use that analogy. 

Samiya 

> On 31-May-2015, at 1:13 am, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well, it sort of sabotaged technological progress for what was then 
> excellent, progress. It's a reasonable thing to say, the we need God and He 
> doesn't need us. However, just by the way the world works, the lack of cause 
> and effect in personal lives, disease, earthquakes, etc. I make no claims 
> about God. It might be a better neutral way to describe God as a Mind, and 
> worry about how we think about it later. This is probably trivial and 
> shallow, but I try to look at things from the purely human point of 
> view-however miserable and flawed humans are. Moreover, I see the universe as 
> increasingly looking like a great program, or a simulation. Thus, the 
> actually cosmology of the astronomers becomes a secondary thing, because no 
> matter what it's shape or age, it all functions like a computation. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Samiya Illias 
> To: everything-list 
> Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 1:05 pm
> Subject: Re: Samiya proved right
> 
> 
> 
> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List < 
> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: 
> 
> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by 
> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. 
> The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to 
> know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! 
> 
> 
> And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
> repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. 
> 
> Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
> matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
> individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. 
> 
> Samiya  
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message- 
> From: Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> 
> To: everything-list < everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
> Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am 
> Subject: Re: Samiya proved right 
> 
> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure 
> there will be no injustice done to anybody. 
> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming 
> to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created 
> us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
> heavens and earth. 
> Samiya 
> 
> On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> "No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis 
> of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a 
> non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to 
> murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I 
> erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and 
> not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. 
> 
> If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really 
> do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal 
> pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which 
> to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to 
> avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made me do!" he 
> says as he tortures you. 
> 
> 
>> On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias  wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou < stath...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote: 
>>>>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>>>>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to 
>>>>> our own negligence.
>>>> 
>>>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the 
>&g

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-30 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Well, it sort of sabotaged technological progress for what was then excellent, 
progress. It's a reasonable thing to say, the we need God and He doesn't need 
us. However, just by the way the world works, the lack of cause and effect in 
personal lives, disease, earthquakes, etc. I make no claims about God. It might 
be a better neutral way to describe God as a Mind, and worry about how we think 
about it later. This is probably trivial and shallow, but I try to look at 
things from the purely human point of view-however miserable and flawed humans 
are. Moreover, I see the universe as increasingly looking like a great program, 
or a simulation. Thus, the actually cosmology of the astronomers becomes a 
secondary thing, because no matter what it's shape or age, it all functions 
like a computation. 
 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
 
 
  
On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <  
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:  
  
 
 
  
   Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. 
So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon 
is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is 
in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! 
 
 
  
 
And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence.  
  
 
 
Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
individually. God doesn't need us, we need God.  
 
  
 
 
Samiya   
  
   
   
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
-Original Message-  
 From: Samiya Illias <  samiyaill...@gmail.com>  
 To: everything-list <  everything-list@googlegroups.com>  
 Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am  
 Subject: Re: Samiya proved right  
   
   

 
 God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody.  
 
 The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to 
know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, 
sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
heavens and earth.  
 
 Samiya  
 
  
 On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR <  lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:  
  
 
 
  
   

 "No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis 
of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a 
non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to 
murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I 
erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and 
not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis.   
  
 

 If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really 
do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal 
pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to 
base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid 
Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made me do!" he says as 
he tortures you.

   
   


 On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias  
wrote: 
 
  
   
 


 
 On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou < 
stath...@gmail.com> wrote: 
 


 
  
  
 On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias <  
samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote:  
  
   


 
 
 On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR   
wrote:

Re: Samiya proved right



> On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, 
> Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study 
> things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by 
> Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. 
> The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to 
> know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! 
> 
> 
And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the 
repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. 

Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that 
matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged 
individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. 

Samiya 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Samiya Illias 
> To: everything-list 
> Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
> Subject: Re: Samiya proved right
> 
> God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure 
> there will be no injustice done to anybody. 
> The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
> subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming 
> to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created 
> us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
> heavens and earth. 
> Samiya 
> 
> On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR < lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> "No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis 
> of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a 
> non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to 
> murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I 
> erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and 
> not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. 
> 
> If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really 
> do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal 
> pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which 
> to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to 
> avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made me do!" he 
> says as he tortures you. 
> 
> 
>> On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias  wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou < stath...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias < samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote: 
>>>>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>>>>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to 
>>>>> our own negligence.
>>>> 
>>>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the 
>>>> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it". 
>>> 
>>> That's a horrible analogy! 
>>> Consider the following verses: 
>>> 
>>> http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you 
>>> messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears 
>>> Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they 
>>> grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - 
>>> those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
>> 
>> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may 
>> be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, 
>> God's morals seem inferior to humans'. 
>> 
>> If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it 
>> states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can 
>> probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has 
>> been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however 
>> according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before 
>> being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He 
>> has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only 
>> to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another pl

Re: Samiya proved right



> On 30-May-2015, at 5:41 am, Stathis Papaioannou  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
 
 
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due 
>> to our own negligence.
> 
> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the 
> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it". 
 
 That's a horrible analogy! 
 Consider the following verses: 
 
 http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you 
 messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears 
 Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they 
 grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - 
 those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
>>> 
>>> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may 
>>> be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, 
>>> God's morals seem inferior to humans'. 
>> 
>> If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it 
>> states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can 
>> probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has 
>> been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however 
>> according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before 
>> being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He 
>> has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only 
>> to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, 
>> it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can 
>> strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life 
>> in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the 
>> Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. 
> 
> The point is, if there's not enough evidence for a rational, impartial person 
> to believe something, it is morally wrong to punish them for not believing 
> it. For example, if the government passes a law and keeps it secret, allowing 
> only easily dismissed rumours of it to get out, it is morally wrong to then 
> reveal the law and punish people who didn't obey it. Note that this has 
> nothing to do with whether the belief is good or bad - only if it is true. I 
> could say that the Quran is a wonderful document, but unfortunately there is 
> insufficient evidence that it is true; or alternatively, that it is an evil 
> document, but unfortunately the evidence suggests that it is true.
> 

Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate the 
Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he is 
talking about. 
As per my understanding, nobody is being asked for irrational belief. There is 
enough evidence in nature for any keen mind to know that their must be a 
creator behind all this, enough evidence from history to know that there cannot 
be more than one master-king, otherwise everything would be in chaos, and 
multiple messengers, prophets and scriptures have been sent for guidance. 
Irrespective of the behaviour and actions of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, 
people of any faith or the lack of it, we must remember that each one of us 
will be judged individually and rewarded according to our beliefs and actions, 
taking into account all our limitations and all our efforts. There will be no 
injustice! 

Samiya 

> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-30 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, Ma'shallah! 
God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study things further. 
Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how 
photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone 
and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands, 
and He is the best judge to know! 



 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody.  
 
The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to 
know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, 
sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
heavens and earth.  
 
Samiya  
 
  
On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR <  lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:  
  
 
 
  
   

"No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis 
of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a 
non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to 
murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I 
erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and 
not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis. 
 

If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do 
exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal 
pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to 
base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid 
Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made me do!" he says as 
he tortures you.

   
   


On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias   wrote: 
 
  
   
 


 
On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou < stath...@gmail.com> 
wrote: 
 


 
  
  
On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias <  samiyaill...@gmail.com> 
wrote:  
  
   


 
 
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizRwrote:  

  
   

 
  On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias 
 wrote:
   

 
  
   If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up 
in the Fire due to our own negligence.  
 

   
   

   
  
That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the same 
as the rapist's "she was asking for it".
  
 

   
  
  
   
  
  
That's a horrible analogy!   
  
Consider the following verses:   
  
   
  
  
   http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to 
you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears 
Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they 
grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those 
are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.  
 

   
  
  
   
  
  
Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be 
foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's 
morals seem inferior to humans'.   
 


 

If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states 
that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be 
understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in 
other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these 
verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this 
world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 
'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing 
else, that we serve Him alone. And at another pla

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-30 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Twas brillig
as slithey toves
did gyre and gimble in the wabe
all mimsy
were the borogroves
as the ramprats
outgrabe







 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Fri, May 29, 2015 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right


 
  
"No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis 
of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a 
non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to 
murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I 
erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and 
not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis.   
   
  
If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really do 
exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal 
pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which to 
base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to avoid 
Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made me do!" he says as 
he tortures you.  
  
 
 
  
  
On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias wrote:   
   

   
   
  
  
   
On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou <   stath...@gmail.com> 
wrote:   
   
  
  
   


On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

 
  
  
   
   
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:


 
  
   
On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  
wrote:
 
  
   

 If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in 
the Fire due to our own negligence.
   
  
 
 
  
 

That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the same 
as the rapist's "she was asking for it".  

   
  
 


 


That's a horrible analogy! 

Consider the following verses: 

 


 http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you 
messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah 
and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But 
the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the 
companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
   
  
 


 


Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may be 
foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, God's 
morals seem inferior to humans'. 
   
  
  
   
  
If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states 
that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be 
understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in 
other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these 
verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this 
world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 
'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing 
else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no 
compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, 
and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a 
quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our 
reality. 

   
   
Samiya
 
  
   


 
  
 
  
   
  
   

 
  
   http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took 
from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them 
testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, 
we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, 
"Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our 
fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but 
d

Re: Samiya proved right

God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there 
will be no injustice done to anybody. 
The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: 
subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to 
know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, 
sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the 
heavens and earth. 
Samiya 

> On 30-May-2015, at 4:42 am, LizR  wrote:
> 
> "No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the basis 
> of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a 
> non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to 
> murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then I 
> erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault, and 
> not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis.
> 
> If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell really 
> do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as Pascal 
> pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge on which 
> to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he fails to 
> avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made me do!" he 
> says as he tortures you.
> 
> 
>> On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
 
 
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due 
>> to our own negligence.
> 
> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the 
> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it". 
 
 That's a horrible analogy! 
 Consider the following verses: 
 
 http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you 
 messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears 
 Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they 
 grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - 
 those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
>>> 
>>> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may 
>>> be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, 
>>> God's morals seem inferior to humans'. 
>> 
>> If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it 
>> states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can 
>> probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has 
>> been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however 
>> according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before 
>> being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He 
>> has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only 
>> to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, 
>> it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can 
>> strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life 
>> in this world some thing like a quality control, of being plugged into the 
>> Matrix, and striving to improve our reality. 
>> 
>> Samiya 
>> 
>>>  
 http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the 
 children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them 
 testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, 
 "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of 
 Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It 
 was only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah 
 before, and we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us 
 for what the falsifiers have done?" And thus do We [explain in] detail the 
 verses, and perhaps they will return. 
 
 http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in 
 death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age 
 so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, 
 Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over 
 others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their 
 provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal 
 to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has 
 made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates 
 sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then 
 in falsehood do they believe and in the f

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
>
> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou  > wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>>>
 If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due
 to our own negligence.

>>>
>>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the
>>> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it".
>>>
>>
>> That's a horrible analogy!
>> Consider the following verses:
>>
>> http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you
>> messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears
>> Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they
>> grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them -
>> those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
>>
>
> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You
> may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this
> respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'.
>
>
> If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it
> states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can
> probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has
> been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however
> according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before
> being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He
> has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit
> only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another
> place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever
> wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is
> forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of
> being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality.
>

The point is, if there's not enough evidence for a rational, impartial
person to believe something, it is morally wrong to punish them for not
believing it. For example, if the government passes a law and keeps it
secret, allowing only easily dismissed rumours of it to get out, it is
morally wrong to then reveal the law and punish people who didn't obey it.
Note that this has nothing to do with whether the belief is good or bad -
only if it is true. I could say that the Quran is a wonderful document, but
unfortunately there is insufficient evidence that it is true; or
alternatively, that it is an evil document, but unfortunately the evidence
suggests that it is true.

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

-- 
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread LizR

"No compulsion" when the choice is between Heaven and Hell - and on the
basis of something we can't remember having done...? Let's try that in a
non-religious context. "But, m'lud, I warned the victim that I was going to
murder him if he went through with his planned visit to Midsomer - and then
I erased his memory of our meeting. So clearly his murder is all his fault,
and not mine." I'm not sure the defence would get very far on that basis.

If it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that God and Heaven and Hell
really do exist, then no rational agent would choose NOT to worship God, as
Pascal pointed out. But the idea that despite having no sensible knowledge
on which to base his or her decisions, it's still the victim's fault if he
fails to avoid Hell, is the logic of a psychopath. "Now look what you made
me do!" he says as he tortures you.


On 30 May 2015 at 13:11, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
>
> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>>>
 If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due
 to our own negligence.

>>>
>>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the
>>> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it".
>>>
>>
>> That's a horrible analogy!
>> Consider the following verses:
>>
>> http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you
>> messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears
>> Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they
>> grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them -
>> those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
>>
>
> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You
> may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this
> respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'.
>
>
> If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it
> states that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can
> probably be understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has
> been going on in other threads. Though we do not remember this, however
> according to these verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before
> being sent to this world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He
> has created us as His 'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit
> only to God and to nothing else, that we serve Him alone. And at another
> place, it states that there is no compulsion in religion, hence whoever
> wishes can strive for a beautiful future, and whoever rejects is
> forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a quality control, of
> being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our reality.
>
> Samiya
>
>
>
>> http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the
>> children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them
>> testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said,
>> "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of
>> Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was
>> only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and
>> we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the
>> falsifiers have done?" And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and
>> perhaps they will return.
>>
>> http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you
>> in death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old]
>> age so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing.
>> Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you
>> over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over
>> their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be
>> equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah
>> has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates
>> sons and grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then
>> in falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And
>> they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power
>> of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they
>> are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows
>> and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and
>> unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good
>> provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal?
>> Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an
>> example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is
>> a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread Samiya Illias



> On 29-May-2015, at 5:41 pm, Stathis Papaioannou  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
 On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
 If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to 
 our own negligence.
>>> 
>>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the 
>>> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it". 
>> 
>> That's a horrible analogy! 
>> Consider the following verses: 
>> 
>> http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers 
>> from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and 
>> reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. But 
>> the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - those are the 
>> companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
> 
> Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You may 
> be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this respect, 
> God's morals seem inferior to humans'. 

If you read the verses 7/172-174 quoted below in my previous email, it states 
that God made us testify that He is our Lord. I think this can probably be 
understood in terms of the consciousness discussion that has been going on in 
other threads. Though we do not remember this, however according to these 
verses, we did at one time testify to it -- much before being sent to this 
world. At another place in the Quran, God states that He has created us as His 
'ibaad' meaning slaves. That means that we submit only to God and to nothing 
else, that we serve Him alone. And at another place, it states that there is no 
compulsion in religion, hence whoever wishes can strive for a beautiful future, 
and whoever rejects is forewarned. I see life in this world some thing like a 
quality control, of being plugged into the Matrix, and striving to improve our 
reality. 

Samiya 

>  
>> http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the 
>> children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them 
>> testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, 
>> "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of 
>> Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was 
>> only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and 
>> we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the 
>> falsifiers have done?" And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and 
>> perhaps they will return. 
>> 
>> http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in 
>> death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age so 
>> that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed, Allah 
>> is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over others in 
>> provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to 
>> those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. 
>> Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made for you from 
>> yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandchildren 
>> and has provided for you from the good things. Then in falsehood do they 
>> believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And they worship besides 
>> Allah that which does not possess for them [the power of] provision from the 
>> heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they are unable. So do not 
>> assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows and you do not know. 
>> Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and unable to do a thing 
>> and he to whom We have provided from Us good provision, so he spends from it 
>> secretly and publicly. Can they be equal? Praise to Allah ! But most of them 
>> do not know. And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them dumb and 
>> unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he 
>> directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who commands justice, 
>> while he is on a straight path? And to Allah belongs the unseen [aspects] of 
>> the heavens and the earth. And the command for the Hour is not but as a 
>> glance of the eye or even nearer. Indeed, Allah is over all things 
>> competent. 
>> 
>> Samiya 
>>> 
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Saturday, May 30, 2015, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  > wrote:
>
>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias > > wrote:
>>
>>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due
>>> to our own negligence.
>>>
>>
>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the
>> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it".
>>
>
> That's a horrible analogy!
> Consider the following verses:
>
> http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you
> messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears
> Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they
> grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them -
> those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
>

Morally, how do you justify punishment for not believing something? You
may be foolish if you believe the wrong thing, but not bad. In this
respect, God's morals seem inferior to humans'.


> http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the
> children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them
> testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said,
> "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of
> Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was
> only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and
> we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the
> falsifiers have done?" And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and
> perhaps they will return.
>
> http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in
> death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age
> so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed,
> Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over
> others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their
> provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to
> them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made
> for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and
> grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in
> falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And
> they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power
> of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they
> are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows
> and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and
> unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good
> provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal?
> Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an
> example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is
> a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he
> equal to one who commands justice, while he is on a straight path? And to
> Allah belongs the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And the
> command for the Hour is not but as a glance of the eye or even nearer.
> Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.
>
> Samiya
>
>>
>>  --
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>> "Everything List" group.
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>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
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>>
>
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread LizR

On 30 May 2015 at 07:01, Samiya Illias  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:
>
>> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>>
>>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due
>>> to our own negligence.
>>>
>>
>> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the
>> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it".
>>
>
> That's a horrible analogy!
>

It isn't an analogy, it's a fact of human psychology. Clearly people have
projected their own nature onto a supposed supreme being, making the
supreme being out to be some sort of emotionally crippled sadist. I refuse
to give credence to a God that intends to torture anyone who doesn't
believe in it for eternity, and I suggest you consider that with an open
mind yourself. Clearly *people* wrote those particular lines from your
allegedly divine text in order to control other people, and the same is
true of the Bible and any other holy writ that uses crude threats to force
other people to obey an elite group (such as priests).

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread Samiya Illias

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 7:33 AM, LizR  wrote:

> On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to
>> our own negligence.
>>
>
> That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the
> same as the rapist's "she was asking for it".
>

That's a horrible analogy!
Consider the following verses:

http://quran.com/7/35-36 O children of Adam, if there come to you
messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears
Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they
grieve. But the ones who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them -
those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

http://quran.com/7/172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the
children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them
testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said,
"Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of
Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was
only that our fathers associated [others in worship] with Allah before, and
we were but descendants after them. Then would You destroy us for what the
falsifiers have done?" And thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and
perhaps they will return.

http://quran.com/16/70-77 And Allah created you; then He will take you in
death. And among you is he who is reversed to the most decrepit [old] age
so that he will not know, after [having had] knowledge, a thing. Indeed,
Allah is Knowing and Competent. And Allah has favored some of you over
others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their
provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to
them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? And Allah has made
for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and
grandchildren and has provided for you from the good things. Then in
falsehood do they believe and in the favor of Allah they disbelieve? And
they worship besides Allah that which does not possess for them [the power
of] provision from the heavens and the earth at all, and [in fact], they
are unable. So do not assert similarities to Allah . Indeed, Allah knows
and you do not know. Allah presents an example: a slave [who is] owned and
unable to do a thing and he to whom We have provided from Us good
provision, so he spends from it secretly and publicly. Can they be equal?
Praise to Allah ! But most of them do not know. And Allah presents an
example of two men, one of them dumb and unable to do a thing, while he is
a burden to his guardian. Wherever he directs him, he brings no good. Is he
equal to one who commands justice, while he is on a straight path? And to
Allah belongs the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And the
command for the Hour is not but as a glance of the eye or even nearer.
Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Samiya

>
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-29 Thread LizR

On 29 May 2015 at 16:34, Samiya Illias  wrote:

> If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the Fire due to
> our own negligence.
>

That is known as "victim blaming". It's the psychology of a sadist - the
same as the rapist's "she was asking for it".

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Samiya Illias

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:38 PM, LizR  wrote:

> On 29 May 2015 at 07:26, Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>> The Quran speaks of one single blast which will kill and destroy
>> everything, and another which will cause resurrection. When that is to
>> occur, only God has knowledge of it. However, we have been informed that it
>> is approaching closer and closer.
>>
>
> That is of course true of all future events (but I expect mean the date is
> being moved forward?)
>

No, I don't think the date is being moved - it will happen at its
designated time. I think it means that we humans are running out of time.
We are here to work for a beautiful eternal future in the Gardens of the
Hereafter. If we do not make the necessary effort, we will end up in the
Fire due to our own negligence. http://quran.com/21 and http://quran.com/103
may be of interest.

>
>> The article you quoted has Biblical quotes. That all scriptures are sent
>> from God is an article of faith for us. However, its better that I leave it
>> to someone else who has studied the Bible in depth to comment upon the
>> end-of-times signs in it.
>> As regards HAARP, etc, my understanding is that humans will transgress
>> all reasonable bounds to toy with Creation, and try to corrupt the planet
>> and bring harm to it and all who dwell upon it. In the past, many mighty
>> yet criminal nations were warned: when they refused to heed the warnings of
>> the messengers, even though the signs became clear to them, they were then
>> destroyed for their crimes. Scriptures and mythology have many references
>> and legends, and there are many ruins to wonder at what might have been.
>>
>
> To be fair most of those collapses are now well explained by
> archaeologists, generally in terms of what today seem relatively minor
> ecological catastrophes but at the time were sufficiently devastating that
> they brought down entire city-states. Of course in those days it was
> possible to move to a new spot and start again, hence the idea that
> civilisation is cyclic ... but I think to blame these events on divine
> intervention would require something other than the currently available
> evidence, which all seems to point to natural causes (at least if Ronald
> Wright is to be believed). Obviously these things get mythologised and
> turned into the wrath of God in retrospect, but that is just normal human
> nature at work - *schadenfreude* and all that.
>

History is mostly 'intelligent' 'educated' guesses at what may have been.
The archaeologists may be right or they may be wrong. As I believe the
scripture is from God, and as I take it literally, I believe that the
ancient civilisations were far mightier and very advanced, perhaps even
travelling to space or doing genetic experimentation. I know it sounds like
sci-fi and I need to put together some research to back it up, but the more
I study the Quran and look at world history and mythology, the more I'm
convinced of it. The civilisations which were destroyed must have been
transgressing, and corrupting and upsetting the balance in some terrible
way to have earned such annihilation. I think that had God not destroyed
them, they would have destroyed the planet and perhaps we would not be here
today.
Also note that according to the Quran, whenever such punishments were
executed, entire nations were obliterated from the face of the Earth --
only the few who had believed the Messengers survived with him.
Why would you expect the Divine intervention to appear through non-natural
causes, when all nature is at God's command?

>
>> I'm posting below some relevant verses/links for your perusal:
>>
>> http://quran.com/21/1 Their reckoning draweth nigh for mankind, while
>> they turn away in heedlessness.
>>
>> http://quran.com/7/187 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when
>> is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal
>> its time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It
>> will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are
>> familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the
>> people do not know."
>>
>> http://quran.com/39/68 And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the
>> heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah
>> willeth. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting!
>>
>> http://quran.com/36/48-52  And they say, "When is this promise, if you
>> should be truthful?" They do not await except one blast which will seize
>> them while they are disputing. And they will not be able [to give] any
>> instruction, nor to their people can they return. And the Horn will be
>> blown; and at once from the graves to their Lord they will hasten. They
>> will say, "O woe to us! Who has raised us up from our sleeping place?" [The
>> reply will be], "This is what the Most Merciful had promised, and the
>> messengers told the truth."
>>
>> http://quran.com/101/1-5 The Calamity! What

Re: Samiya proved right

You mean the "yes boss" ? TEFL I think. They were getting far less readable
after SIASL (TMIAHM was OK I seem to remember, but by the 60s he was
getting away from those short snappy stories I grew up on).

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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Was it Time Enough for Love, Friday, or The Number of the Beast?

-Original Message-
From: LizR 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2015 7:40 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

On 29 May 2015 at 09:59, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 wrote:

 A blast from the past. Wasn't it Robert Heinlein who wrote, "one man's 
theology is another man's belly laugh?"   

It sounds like him, although I seem to recall he got more religious in his old 
age. Or maybe his religion was based more on himself? (Dead woman after brain 
transplant still calls him "boss" etc) I think he was probably reincarnated as 
David Bowie.

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 29 May 2015 at 09:59, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> A blast from the past. Wasn't it Robert Heinlein who wrote, "one man's
> theology is another man's belly laugh?"
>
> It sounds like him, although I seem to recall he got more religious in his
old age. Or maybe his religion was based more on himself? (Dead woman after
brain transplant still calls him "boss" etc) I think he was probably
reincarnated as David Bowie.

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Re: Samiya proved right

On 29 May 2015 at 07:26, Samiya Illias  wrote:

> Liz,
> The Quran speaks of one single blast which will kill and destroy
> everything, and another which will cause resurrection. When that is to
> occur, only God has knowledge of it. However, we have been informed that it
> is approaching closer and closer.
>

That is of course true of all future events (but I expect mean the date is
being moved forward?)


> The article you quoted has Biblical quotes. That all scriptures are sent
> from God is an article of faith for us. However, its better that I leave it
> to someone else who has studied the Bible in depth to comment upon the
> end-of-times signs in it.
> As regards HAARP, etc, my understanding is that humans will transgress all
> reasonable bounds to toy with Creation, and try to corrupt the planet and
> bring harm to it and all who dwell upon it. In the past, many mighty yet
> criminal nations were warned: when they refused to heed the warnings of the
> messengers, even though the signs became clear to them, they were then
> destroyed for their crimes. Scriptures and mythology have many references
> and legends, and there are many ruins to wonder at what might have been.
>

To be fair most of those collapses are now well explained by
archaeologists, generally in terms of what today seem relatively minor
ecological catastrophes but at the time were sufficiently devastating that
they brought down entire city-states. Of course in those days it was
possible to move to a new spot and start again, hence the idea that
civilisation is cyclic ... but I think to blame these events on divine
intervention would require something other than the currently available
evidence, which all seems to point to natural causes (at least if Ronald
Wright is to be believed). Obviously these things get mythologised and
turned into the wrath of God in retrospect, but that is just normal human
nature at work - *schadenfreude* and all that.

>
> I'm posting below some relevant verses/links for your perusal:
>
> http://quran.com/21/1 Their reckoning draweth nigh for mankind, while
> they turn away in heedlessness.
>
> http://quran.com/7/187 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when
> is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal
> its time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It
> will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are
> familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the
> people do not know."
>
> http://quran.com/39/68 And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the
> heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah
> willeth. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting!
>
> http://quran.com/36/48-52  And they say, "When is this promise, if you
> should be truthful?" They do not await except one blast which will seize
> them while they are disputing. And they will not be able [to give] any
> instruction, nor to their people can they return. And the Horn will be
> blown; and at once from the graves to their Lord they will hasten. They
> will say, "O woe to us! Who has raised us up from our sleeping place?" [The
> reply will be], "This is what the Most Merciful had promised, and the
> messengers told the truth."
>
> http://quran.com/101/1-5 The Calamity! What is the Calamity? Ah, what
> will convey unto thee what the Calamity is! A day wherein mankind will be
> as thickly-scattered moths And the mountains will become as carded wool.
>
> http://quran.com/99 When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake And
> Earth yieldeth up her burdens, And man saith: What aileth her? That day she
> will relate her chronicles, Because thy Lord inspireth her. That day
> mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds. And
> whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then, And whoso doeth ill an
> atom's weight will see it then.
>
> http://quran.com/30/30 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining
> to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all]
> people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the
> correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
>
> http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=trumpet
>
> Those mostly sound very similar to the Christian version ("the Last Trump"
- in this case meaning trumpet, or a similar instrument). The ultimate
wake-up call, which even returns the dead to life. Actually I'm surprised
that the Quran's version IS so similar, although I suppose I shouldn't be -
we now know that the Middle Eastern religions all have fairly similar
origins, I think? Plus links to the Egyptian religion (Jesus=Osiris etc,
IIRC) The Christian version involves the dead being resurrected physically,
reagrdless of the manner of their death or whether they were buried,
cremated, etc. This would cause the appearance of around 100 billion people
(if the introduction to "2001" is to be believed). Approximate

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

A blast from the past. Wasn't it Robert Heinlein who wrote, "one man's theology 
is another man's belly laugh?" 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Thu, May 28, 2015 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: Samiya proved right

Liz,   
The Quran speaks of one single blast which will kill and destroy everything, 
and another which will cause resurrection. When that is to occur, only God has 
knowledge of it. However, we have been informed that it is approaching closer 
and closer.   

The article you quoted has Biblical quotes. That all scriptures are sent from 
God is an article of faith for us. However, its better that I leave it to 
someone else who has studied the Bible in depth to comment upon the 
end-of-times signs in it.

As regards HAARP, etc, my understanding is that humans will transgress all 
reasonable bounds to toy with Creation, and try to corrupt the planet and bring 
harm to it and all who dwell upon it. In the past, many mighty yet criminal 
nations were warned: when they refused to heed the warnings of the messengers, 
even though the signs became clear to them, they were then destroyed for their 
crimes. Scriptures and mythology have many references and legends, and there 
are many ruins to wonder at what might have been.   

I'm posting below some relevant verses/links for your perusal:

   http://quran.com/21/1 Their reckoning draweth nigh for mankind, while they 
turn away in heedlessness.

   http://quran.com/7/187 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is 
its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its 
time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will not 
come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar with 
it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not 
know."

   http://quran.com/39/68 And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the 
heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah willeth. 
Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting!

   http://quran.com/36/48-52  And they say, "When is this promise, if you 
should be truthful?" They do not await except one blast which will seize them 
while they are disputing. And they will not be able [to give] any instruction, 
nor to their people can they return. And the Horn will be blown; and at once 
from the graves to their Lord they will hasten. They will say, "O woe to us! 
Who has raised us up from our sleeping place?" [The reply will be], "This is 
what the Most Merciful had promised, and the messengers told the truth."   

   http://quran.com/101/1-5 The Calamity! What is the Calamity? Ah, what will 
convey unto thee what the Calamity is! A day wherein mankind will be as 
thickly-scattered moths And the mountains will become as carded wool.

   http://quran.com/99 When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake And 
Earth yieldeth up her burdens, And man saith: What aileth her? That day she 
will relate her chronicles, Because thy Lord inspireth her. That day mankind 
will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds. And whoso doeth 
good an atom's weight will see it then, And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight 
will see it then. 

   http://quran.com/30/30 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to 
truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. 
No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct 
religion, but most of the people do not know.

   http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=trumpet

Samiya   

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 8:57 AM, LizR wrote:   

Wow!  

I'm impressed by the speed of the response and the response itself. Thanks! 

On 28 May 2015 at 23:53, Kim Jones  wrote: 

http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/04/13/aquiess-international-inc-electromagnetic-rainmaking-technology/

On 28 May 2015, at 9:47 pm, Kim Jones < kimjo...@ozemail.com.au> 
wrote: 

   https://www.facebook.com/MrDiscontinuity/posts/978314172187161   

On 28 May 2015, at 9:44 pm, Kim Jones <   kimjo...@ozemail.com.au> 
wrote:

Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Seems to be Gaia flatulences

2015-05-28 11:22 GMT+02:00 LizR :

> Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...
>
>
> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world
>
> --
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Samiya Illias

Liz,
The Quran speaks of one single blast which will kill and destroy
everything, and another which will cause resurrection. When that is to
occur, only God has knowledge of it. However, we have been informed that it
is approaching closer and closer.
The article you quoted has Biblical quotes. That all scriptures are sent
from God is an article of faith for us. However, its better that I leave it
to someone else who has studied the Bible in depth to comment upon the
end-of-times signs in it.
As regards HAARP, etc, my understanding is that humans will transgress all
reasonable bounds to toy with Creation, and try to corrupt the planet and
bring harm to it and all who dwell upon it. In the past, many mighty yet
criminal nations were warned: when they refused to heed the warnings of the
messengers, even though the signs became clear to them, they were then
destroyed for their crimes. Scriptures and mythology have many references
and legends, and there are many ruins to wonder at what might have been.

I'm posting below some relevant verses/links for your perusal:

http://quran.com/21/1 Their reckoning draweth nigh for mankind, while they
turn away in heedlessness.

http://quran.com/7/187 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is
its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its
time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will
not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar
with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do
not know."

http://quran.com/39/68 And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the
heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah
willeth. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting!

http://quran.com/36/48-52  And they say, "When is this promise, if you
should be truthful?" They do not await except one blast which will seize
them while they are disputing. And they will not be able [to give] any
instruction, nor to their people can they return. And the Horn will be
blown; and at once from the graves to their Lord they will hasten. They
will say, "O woe to us! Who has raised us up from our sleeping place?" [The
reply will be], "This is what the Most Merciful had promised, and the
messengers told the truth."

http://quran.com/101/1-5 The Calamity! What is the Calamity? Ah, what will
convey unto thee what the Calamity is! A day wherein mankind will be as
thickly-scattered moths And the mountains will become as carded wool.

http://quran.com/99 When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake And
Earth yieldeth up her burdens, And man saith: What aileth her? That day she
will relate her chronicles, Because thy Lord inspireth her. That day
mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds. And
whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then, And whoso doeth ill an
atom's weight will see it then.

http://quran.com/30/30 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining
to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all]
people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the
correct religion, but most of the people do not know.

http://corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=trumpet

Samiya

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 8:57 AM, LizR  wrote:

> Wow!
>
> I'm impressed by the speed of the response and the response itself. Thanks!
>
> On 28 May 2015 at 23:53, Kim Jones  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/04/13/aquiess-international-inc-electromagnetic-rainmaking-technology/
>>
>>
>> On 28 May 2015, at 9:47 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/MrDiscontinuity/posts/978314172187161
>>
>>
>> On 28 May 2015, at 9:44 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> It's the sound made by geoengineering - firing electromagnetic pulse
>> waves into the atmosphere to affect weather change. HAARP. And other things
>> they don't ring you up to tell you they are doing. No, they don't announce
>> on the evening news that mankind has figured out how to toy with the
>> world's weather. Some of it might even be for your good.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28 May 2015, at 7:22 pm, LizR  wrote:
>>
>> Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...
>>
>>
>> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>  --
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Bruno Marchal

On 28 May 2015, at 13:53, Kim Jones wrote:

http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/04/13/aquiess-international-inc-electromagnetic-rainmaking-technology/

To make rain!?

At least this would explain why we don't hear those trumpet sounds in
Belgium ...

Bruno

On 28 May 2015, at 9:47 pm, Kim Jones wrote:

https://www.facebook.com/MrDiscontinuity/posts/978314172187161

On 28 May 2015, at 9:44 pm, Kim Jones
wrote:

It's the sound made by geoengineering - firing electromagnetic
pulse waves into the atmosphere to affect weather change. HAARP.
And other things they don't ring you up to tell you they are
doing. No, they don't announce on the evening news that mankind
has figured out how to toy with the world's weather. Some of it
might even be for your good.

Kim

On 28 May 2015, at 7:22 pm, LizR wrote:

Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: Samiya proved right

Wow!

I'm impressed by the speed of the response and the response itself. Thanks!

On 28 May 2015 at 23:53, Kim Jones  wrote:

>
>
>
> http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/04/13/aquiess-international-inc-electromagnetic-rainmaking-technology/
>
>
> On 28 May 2015, at 9:47 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/MrDiscontinuity/posts/978314172187161
>
>
> On 28 May 2015, at 9:44 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
>
>
>
> It's the sound made by geoengineering - firing electromagnetic pulse waves
> into the atmosphere to affect weather change. HAARP. And other things they
> don't ring you up to tell you they are doing. No, they don't announce on
> the evening news that mankind has figured out how to toy with the world's
> weather. Some of it might even be for your good.
>
> Kim
>
>
>
> On 28 May 2015, at 7:22 pm, LizR  wrote:
>
> Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...
>
>
> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Kim Jones



http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/04/13/aquiess-international-inc-electromagnetic-rainmaking-technology/
 

> On 28 May 2015, at 9:47 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/MrDiscontinuity/posts/978314172187161
> 
> 
>> On 28 May 2015, at 9:44 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It's the sound made by geoengineering - firing electromagnetic pulse waves 
>> into the atmosphere to affect weather change. HAARP. And other things they 
>> don't ring you up to tell you they are doing. No, they don't announce on the 
>> evening news that mankind has figured out how to toy with the world's 
>> weather. Some of it might even be for your good. 
>> 
>> Kim
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>> On 28 May 2015, at 7:22 pm, LizR  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...
>>> 
>>> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>> -- 
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Kim Jones

https://www.facebook.com/MrDiscontinuity/posts/978314172187161


> On 28 May 2015, at 9:44 pm, Kim Jones  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It's the sound made by geoengineering - firing electromagnetic pulse waves 
> into the atmosphere to affect weather change. HAARP. And other things they 
> don't ring you up to tell you they are doing. No, they don't announce on the 
> evening news that mankind has figured out how to toy with the world's 
> weather. Some of it might even be for your good. 
> 
> Kim
>  
>  
> 
>> On 28 May 2015, at 7:22 pm, LizR  wrote:
>> 
>> Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...
>> 
>> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world
>> -- 
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Re: Samiya proved right

2015-05-28 Thread Kim Jones



It's the sound made by geoengineering - firing electromagnetic pulse waves into 
the atmosphere to affect weather change. HAARP. And other things they don't 
ring you up to tell you they are doing. No, they don't announce on the evening 
news that mankind has figured out how to toy with the world's weather. Some of 
it might even be for your good. 

Kim
 
 

> On 28 May 2015, at 7:22 pm, LizR  wrote:
> 
> Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...
> 
> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world
> -- 
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Samiya proved right

Apparently the Last Trump is being heard around the world...

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/what-is-causing-the-strange-trumpet-sounds-in-the-sky-all-over-the-world

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Samiya proved right