Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Phil Leigh;234523 Wrote: I'm tired of pointing out that 30 years ago we measured different things and thought that we knew what we were doing - and now we all know that was simply wrong! And I'm tired of pointing out that it doesn't matter how our brain works. If you take the human brain into this equation you can't measure anything at all, because we all have different experience. It's just an excuse for 'audiophiles' to be able to doubt any scientific approach of qualifying their Furthermore: the functioning of human hearing is pretty well known, how we test human hearing is nowadays no different than how we did it 30 years ago. -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
tomjtx;234582 Wrote: servies, I think you might be missing the point. We are listening to music, not test tones. The point is that he's not listening to you guys either. He may be reading the posts and typing a reply, but is it really going in? One problem with internet fora is that people often join them to talk, not to listen. Stop feeding the troll. Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Heybrook Sextets plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
I'm curious as to exactly what tests an engineer would enact to compare two cables. What specific measurements would be taken? Are these tests complete enough to truly be able to replicate all of the elements involved in our hearing? I'm reminded of the many debates that have been posted on this forum about jitter. If I remember correctly, someone posted that the ability to test for jitter and in fact even the comprehension of the possibility of such a phenomenon did not occur until sometime after digital audio was created. During this time period did people argue about the sound of one converter vs another? If jitter was introduced into the signal path (let's assume there was some sort of cause without getting caught up in this detail) and was more prevalent in one design than another, it would not have shown up in any tests during that time period. Without a test or a term for the difference in sound quality between the two units, an argument could be made in a forum that if they had similar measurements there should be no sonic difference between the two units. Again, I'm not saying anything about the 7k cable. I have no idea of it's value or sonic impact. But with regard to the ability to measure the impact of one cable versus another, is it possible that we have not yet identified the qualifying variable and as a result have not come up with an appropriate test? Food for thought? Maybe I'm way off base. It's late this evening... __ Transporter = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT Ayre C5XE = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
pablolie;234563 Wrote: Heisenberg paradigm: measuring something sometimes interferes with the result... You've heard of Godwin's Law (that sooner or later in any heated online discussion, someone brings up the Nazis)? There seems to be a specialised version used in audiophile forums: sooner or later someone brings up quantum mechanics. Does this mean this thread is now finished? (I sincerely hope so!) -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Let's try to explain it: we have cable A and cable B. They both have different physical characteristics, so they could sound different, that's what we want to proof. We hook 'm up between an amplifier and some speakers. We put a microphone somewhere in front of the speakers. This microphone registers everything which is coming out of the speakers. We compare the signals produced with cable A with the signals produced with cable B. As the cables are the only changing part, if there is a difference, the cables will be the source of the difference. In this case they match completely. Now tell me: where does the brain have any influence on the signal of the cables other than the placebo effect? You're not hooked up to the cable (at least I haven't seen anyone yet with plugs in his head...) Another way to test it would be to check the signal right after it enters the speakers, if the signals are the same, the speakers won't sound different... Or do you guys have intelligent speakers that think: Wow, I now have superduper expensive cables, I'm getting the same signal but let's start dancing so that the 'audiophile' in front of us gets a reason to rectify his/her purchase... @CliveB, by mentioning Godwin's law you automatically fulfill it ;) -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234628 Wrote: Geez... still living in the 1940's? @adamSlim, maybe, the microphones aren't perfect, but that's the case for both tests (cable A and B) and that also would be eliminated if you go for option B (comparing the signal at the entrance of the speakers), but ofcourse there will be some invisible elves who enhance your hearing when you use the superduper expensive cables... whatever, if it gives you a comfortable feeling... You are still missing the point. If I have two identical cardboard boxes, one filled with gold and the other with lead, and the measuring device available to me is a camera, the boxes measure equally. Obviously, they are not equal in a relevant way, but my measurement system is not sophisticated enough to detect it. It is certainly likely that there are limits to our current measurements for audio, so some relevant difference could be undetectable by those measurements. In practical terms, you may be correct. Perhaps there are no limitations in our measurement technology that can account for meaningful, audible differences. However, the possibility clearly exists. Intellectually, I do favor double-blind testing. If someone can tell the difference in a well-constructed, double-blind test, then it exists (statistically speaking). If your instruments cannot measure a difference, then it is a limitation of your instruments. If they can, then perhaps that difference explains the difference in human perception, but perhaps it is something else that your instruments cannot detect. In no one can tell the difference in a well-constructed, double-blind test, then for all practical purposes the difference does not exist. If your instruments can measure a difference, then it must be a difference that is not audible. If they cannot, fine, but they still may be limited in detecting factors that are not audible. Finally, I am very skeptical regarding mega-expensive cables, and I can think of virtually no circumstance under which I would value them given their cost. -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;234617 Wrote: Or are you now telling me that we can produce microphones that can perform as well as the human ear? Geez... still living in the 1940's? Microphones are tone controls. The most lust object micros are Neumanns from the 50s and RCA ribbons from the 30s. Many modern clones are on the market. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
jeffmeh;234644 Wrote: An elephant just quantum tunnelled to appear intact in my living room. Should I reconsider buying the expensive cables? Is the elephant wearing headphones? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;234617 Wrote: Or are you now telling me that we can produce microphones that can perform as well as the human ear? adamslim;234626 Wrote: snip Your test is pointless. Actually it's not a bad idea. What you both seem to be missing is that everything we listen to over an audio system has already passed through a microphone at some point (except some electronic music). If mics have major imperfections that distort sound those imperfections are already present in the recording. Of course what's more direct is simply to do cable a listening test. But wait - that's been done many times, and no one can distinguish reasonably decent cables from each other unless they can see them! What a shock - extremely sensitive measurements indicate that cables are nearly identical, hearing tests indicate that they are identical, physics theory tells us they should be very very similar... and the only argument on the other side is the opinions of some cable manufacturers and a few neurotic audiophiles? Why are we still discussing this? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234613 Wrote: This microphone registers everything which is coming out of the speakers. It's quite a good one then. Transducers are not perfect. Ears have flaws and tolerances, microphones have flaws and tolerances. Your argument has flaws. Difference testing on interconnects where the electronic signal can be digitised at 24/96 (or greater) and compared has a lot more mileage than using a microphone, but I am still not convinced by its applicability to music. Your test is pointless. (Why am I feeding the troll?) Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Heybrook Sextets plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;234617 Wrote: Or are you now telling me that we can produce microphones that can perform as well as the human ear? R. Geez... still living in the 1940's? -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
cliveb;234593 Wrote: You've heard of Godwin's Law (that sooner or later in any heated online discussion, someone brings up the Nazis)? There seems to be a specialised version used in audiophile forums: sooner or later someone brings up quantum mechanics. Does this mean this thread is now finished? (I sincerely hope so!) Haha, that's funny... I thought exactly the same thing when I read that post! I had a little of that sinking feeling I get at cocktail parties when someone finds out I'm a physicist and brings up QM - that how-can-I-explain-politely-that-you-have-absolutely-no-idea-what-you're -talking-about feeling... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Let me see if I got this right. If it measures great but sounds like crap you'd go for the measurements? You got to be kidding right? At the end of the day forget the objective/subjective debate we ALL use our ears to listen. And isn't the point of all of this, to acheive good, great, amazing, moving, goosebump, bring a tear to the eye music? Or maybe I'm missing the point of listening to music. Maybe it's true engineers really ain't got no soul.. just a bunch of ones and zeros [I'm a software engineer that's why I want proof and don't believe in things people hear but can't measure... especially knowing that human ears are extremely limited... -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
The problem lays in common misbelief that the best thing for audio is zero-distorted signal. This is correct for mastering, but clearly contradicts psychoacoustics when taken in context of end-user listening, aimed for enjoyment rather then evaluation. There are certain types of distortion that must be there for music to be listenable and enjoyable. They are not well researched though, but many audio gear makers achieve that in purely empirical ways. So many audiophiles suffer from trying to achieve two contradictive and somewhat elusive goals: to have reproduction as close to the original as possible in a way of using least-distorting gear, and at the same time to have enjoyable sound. It will be a problem for as long as there's no scientific clarification on the positive impact of certain types of distortion on listening experience. -- 325xi sb3 || simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 on *skylan* stands via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori sb3 audioengine 5 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
325xi;234370 Wrote: The problem lays in common misbelief that the best thing for audio is zero-distorted signal. This is correct for mastering, but clearly contradicts psychoacoustics when taken in context of end-user listening, aimed for enjoyment rather then evaluation. There are certain types of distortion that must be there for music to be listenable and enjoyable. They are not well researched though, but many audio gear makers achieve that in purely empirical ways. So many audiophiles suffer from trying to achieve two contradictive and somewhat elusive goals: to have reproduction as close to the original as possible in a way of using least-distorting gear, and at the same time to have enjoyable sound. It will be a problem for as long as there's no scientific clarification on the positive impact of certain types of distortion on listening experience. This is a very interesting observation. It leads me to several follow-on thoughts: 1. If the goal of gear is psychoacoutics, it is clear that gear makers can (and dare I say do) use this to their advantage - paying outrageous sums has to have a positive psychoacoustic affect! (at least in the volumes required to make very tidy profits) 2. I have a small problem with the concept that psychoacoustic affects are the goal of the gear. Shouldn't psychoacoustic affects be captured in the signal in the recording and mastering, and therefore be perfectly reproducible on a reference system (for example, the studio monitors?) Until somebody figures out how to make a recording and playback system that is the equivalent of having the musicians in the room with you, I personally would prefer to be hearing exactly what the recording engineer intended - no extra psychoacoustics added. -- nicketynick Wireless SB3, Denon DRA-F101, Mission M31 loudspeakers WinXP SP2 Slimserver, SMC WBR14g router http://www.last.fm/user/nicketynick/ nicketynick's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1511 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Wow 325xi I think I agree with you! After many years of audiophileness I've come to the simple conclusion that ALL audio equipment is flawed. One will never be able to recreate the live or recorded performance in ones room, simply because it's your room, it's not the concert hall, stadium or that smokey jazz club. We can get close but it'll never be real, because it's not real it's reproduced. So go with the flavor that floats your boat, cause you, and you alone, are the captain of your audiophile ship :-) -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
325xi;234370 Wrote: The problem lays in common misbelief that the best thing for audio is zero-distorted signal. This is correct for mastering, but clearly contradicts psychoacoustics when taken in context of end-user listening, aimed for enjoyment rather then evaluation. Your definition of high fidelity is interesting. I wonder how people enjoy live music without these added distortions. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
325xi;234370 Wrote: The problem lays in common misbelief that the best thing for audio is zero-distorted signal. This is correct for mastering, but clearly contradicts psychoacoustics when taken in context of end-user listening, aimed for enjoyment rather then evaluation. There are certain types of distortion that must be there for music to be listenable and enjoyable. They are not well researched though, but many audio gear makers achieve that in purely empirical ways. So many audiophiles suffer from trying to achieve two contradictive and somewhat elusive goals: to have reproduction as close to the original as possible in a way of using least-distorting gear, and at the same time to have enjoyable sound. It will be a problem for as long as there's no scientific clarification on the positive impact of certain types of distortion on listening experience. This is a very interesting idea indeed and would tend to explain why there are so many contradictions in this field. For example, tubes always measure poorly when compared with SS amps, yet many prefer the sound. Some speculate the reason behind this is harmonic distortion which is pleasing to many. The famous T-amp can also measure poorly, yet it has a cult following. Guitar amps distort pretty horribly, yet electric guitars have been popular for many years. Extremely flat FR speakers are described as being unlistenable. As a counterpoint to darrenyeats' observation, even live music has distortion of some kind. Room echoes, other people in the crowd, constructive/destructive interference from speakers, even the musicians bodies' blocking and interfering with the sound. I suppose the purest sound would be an instrument played by a minimalist machine in an anechoic chamber, and without even hearing it I bet most of us would think it would sound awful. Now I still say cables are the worst parts of the system to induce distortion. There's plenty of opportunities for distortion in other components. Cables should not be filters. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
ErikM;234366 Wrote: Let me see if I got this right. If it measures great but sounds like crap you'd go for the measurements? You got to be kidding right? At the end of the day forget the objective/subjective debate we ALL use our ears to listen. And isn't the point of all of this, to acheive good, great, amazing, moving, goosebump, bring a tear to the eye music? Or maybe I'm missing the point of listening to music. Maybe it's true engineers really ain't got no soul.. just a bunch of ones and zeros Nope, you misunderstood. If it measures the same, it can't sound different. -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: ErikM;234366 Wrote: Let me see if I got this right. If it measures great but sounds like crap you'd go for the measurements? You got to be kidding right? At the end of the day forget the objective/subjective debate we ALL use our ears to listen. And isn't the point of all of this, to acheive good, great, amazing, moving, goosebump, bring a tear to the eye music? Or maybe I'm missing the point of listening to music. Maybe it's true engineers really ain't got no soul.. just a bunch of ones and zeros Nope, you misunderstood. If it measures the same, it can't sound different. Unless you're not measuring the right thing. I have two cables. They both measure exactly the same (90 cm), yet one clearly sounds different than the other. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;234428 Wrote: Unless you're not measuring the right thing. Exactly. The available means for measurements, especially if we take complexity of human perception into the picture, can only be compared to an attempt of describing an elephant by its mere length from it's tale to the snout. The distortion are necessary not to enhance the sound, but to help brain to build the audio image closer to the real thing. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
325xi;234244 Wrote: Ok, as a physicist, do you believe that cable geometry and material (particularly isolation) properties don't make any difference in audible spectrum? That would be strange because at least geometry directly affects RLC numbers... But then cables made from perfectly identical Belden wire may differ drastically? I'm not sure I understand the question. Certainly different cables can have measurably different performance in the audible range. The question is whether those differences are large enough under reasonable circumstances to make an audible difference. 325xi;234370 Wrote: The problem lays in common misbelief that the best thing for audio is zero-distorted signal. This is correct for mastering, but clearly contradicts psychoacoustics when taken in context of end-user listening, aimed for enjoyment rather then evaluation. There are certain types of distortion that must be there for music to be listenable and enjoyable. They are not well researched though, but many audio gear makers achieve that in purely empirical ways. I totally disagree. When we talk about distortion in an audio system, we mean that the digital or analogue recording is not being translated into sound waves perfectly. That means you're not hearing what the engineer heard when she made the mix. Furthermore you have no control over that distortion - you can't change it (at least not easily). So EVERY recording you listen to differs from what the engineer intended in some specific ways. If you have tastes which differ from every mixing engineer in some particular way, then fine - choose a system that adds that particular coloration. But it's hard to imagine how that's even possible - not all mixing engineers have the same taste, and they all have systems with their own differing distortions, etc. So the safest option for the end listener is just to minimize distortion. ...tubes always measure poorly when compared with SS amps, yet many prefer the sound. Some speculate the reason behind this is harmonic distortion which is pleasing to many. That level of distortion has, so far as I know, never been shown to be audible except when the amp clips. Tubes clip much more gracefully than SS amps, but under normal circumstances that's not an issue. IMO the real reason is that tubes are pretty (I know, I have a tubed preamp) and that many audiophiles are nostalgic Luddites. Mark Lanctot;234392 Wrote: Guitar amps distort pretty horribly, yet electric guitars have been popular for many years. That's because distorted electric guitar sounds good. But why would you want your audio system to distort a recording of an already distorted electric guitar yet again, in a different way? Extremely flat FR speakers are described as being unlistenable. Nonsense. A study was done recently which found an extremely robust correlation between listener satisfaction (to a specific system in a controlled environment) and flat frequency response. A non-flat response is again a type of distortion; it means you're not hearing what the engineer heard. If you want that, buy an equalizer. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;234428 Wrote: Unless you're not measuring the right thing. I have two cables. They both measure exactly the same (90 cm), yet one clearly sounds different than the other. R. Apparently you have such excellent hearing that you can hear the difference between a cable with a length of 90.001 cm and a cable with a length of 90.002 cm, you must be a true 'audiophile' then... Yawn... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234469 Wrote: Apparently you have such excellent hearing that you can hear the difference between a cable with a length of 90.001 cm and a cable with a length of 90.002 cm, you must be a true 'audiophile' then... Yawn... I believe Robin's point is that there may be factors that we cannot yet measure, and that these factors may turn out to have audible consequences. Reductio ad absurdum: If the only measurement we had available were length, the measurement could not distinguish between two 90cm cables, even if one were severed. -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;234428 Wrote: Unless you're not measuring the right thing. I have two cables. They both measure exactly the same (90 cm), yet one clearly sounds different than the other. R. Apparently you have such excellent hearing that you can hear the difference between a cable with a length of 90.001 cm and a cable with a length of 90.002 cm, you must be a true 'audiophile' then... Yawn... What I didn't tell you was that one cable was 30SWG zip cord and the other was one of Belden's finest. In actual fact, I made it all up. I was being facetious, to reinforce my point that one has to measure the right things to be able to say that two cables that measure the same will sound the same. Do you get it now? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
jeffmeh wrote: servies;234469 Wrote: Apparently you have such excellent hearing that you can hear the difference between a cable with a length of 90.001 cm and a cable with a length of 90.002 cm, you must be a true 'audiophile' then... Yawn... I believe Robin's point is that there may be factors that we cannot yet measure, and that these factors may turn out to have audible consequences. Reductio ad absurdum: If the only measurement we had available were length, the measurement could not distinguish between two 90cm cables, even if one were severed. Jeff puts it so much better than I did! :) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234394 Wrote: Nope, you misunderstood. If it measures the same, it can't sound different. No no no - you just are unable to understand that we may not be measuring the right things yet. Why can't you accept that we may not know exactly what to measure at this time? Because we do not understand the way that our brains work, we do not know what is important and what isn't... YAWN! I'm tired of pointing out that 30 years ago we measured differentthings and thought that we knew what we were doing - and now we all know that was simply wrong! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;233938 Wrote: I think this illustrates perfectly the concept of measuring the right thing. The power of the human auditory system is not defined by its frequency response, dynamic range, or directional capabilities. The brain overcomes all these supposed flaws to produce a marvellous piece of equipment. R. Et voilà, you answered your own question... The brain is interpolating/upsampling the data it gets, coloring it with all the past experience it has... To get to that redbook story: The frequency response of audio CD is from 20 Hz to 20 kHz I believe the average human doesn't even hear above 18 kHz, youngsters still get the 20 kHz signal, but older people don't... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234002 Wrote: Et voilà, you answered your own question... The brain is interpolating/upsampling the data it gets, coloring it with all the past experience it has... Is this bad? I've never had a problem with it, but I'm not going to say that we humans have hearing capabilities we can't measure... To get to that redbook story: The frequency response of audio CD is from 20 Hz to 20 kHz I believe the average human doesn't even hear above 18 kHz, youngsters still get the 20 kHz signal, but older people don't... But surely that's the whole point? - I agree we can probably determine what the ear itself is doing, but we have no great method of dtermining what the brain is doing with whatever limited information it IS getting from the ear (and we mustn't forget about bone conduction by the way). Therefore, it doesn't make sense to limit the engineering to only produce what we believe our ears to be capable of when we don't know what the brain is doing and exactly how it combines data from the ears with other stuff. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Phil Leigh wrote: servies;234002 Wrote: Et voilà, you answered your own question... The brain is interpolating/upsampling the data it gets, coloring it with all the past experience it has... Is this bad? I've never had a problem with it, but I'm not going to say that we humans have hearing capabilities we can't measure... To get to that redbook story: The frequency response of audio CD is from 20 Hz to 20 kHz I believe the average human doesn't even hear above 18 kHz, youngsters still get the 20 kHz signal, but older people don't... But surely that's the whole point? - I agree we can probably determine what the ear itself is doing, but we have no great method of dtermining what the brain is doing with whatever limited information it IS getting from the ear (and we mustn't forget about bone conduction by the way). Therefore, it doesn't make sense to limit the engineering to only produce what we believe our ears to be capable of when we don't know what the brain is doing and exactly how it combines data from the ears with other stuff. Exactly. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Phil Leigh;234027 Wrote: But surely that's the whole point? - I agree we can probably determine what the ear itself is doing, but we have no great method of dtermining what the brain is doing with whatever limited information it IS getting from the ear (and we mustn't forget about bone conduction by the way). Where is that info your ears and bones are sending to your brains coming from? From your speakers. If there is no difference in that signal between the different cables then there is no difference whatever your brain may think. That's what this whole test is about: eliminating the influence of the human brain on the testresults. -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234070 Wrote: Where is that info your ears and bones are sending to your brains coming from? From your speakers. If there is no difference in that signal between the different cables then there is no difference whatever your brain may think. That's what this whole test is about: eliminating the influence of the human brain on the testresults. Different strokes for different folks. There is a messing element there: passion. And to a large degree that is why the science is called *psycho*acoustics. We are more than sensory machines. When we taste a wine we have the irrational need to hear about its region, history and what not. When we buy a car a large number of very irrational factors have a huge influence over our decision. When we buy a music reproduction chain, we want to instill some of the passion we feel for the music into parts of it to humanize it, to turn transistors into our own Stradivarius. If someone *thinks* they can hear a difference, and it makes them close their eyes, chill and enjoy their music collection more - more power to them. That's my attitude, at least. And I am interested to hear about their story behind their particular approach to their passion - that's the fun thing between audiophiles. It's a tad of a ritual, it's not all linear considerations. I enjoy lsitening to good music on many systems, I would never pay several thousand dollars for a cable... but if someone else has one, wow, I like to hear the story and take a look at the craftmanship. Does anyone *need* a Patek Philipe Perpetual calendar that costs half a million dollars to keep time? Of course not. But it's a wonderful thing we can be so irrational and passion driven that such things exist. The pursuit of the utterly superfluous is what art and culture is all about, some would say... :-) -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
IMO, it is all really in the ears of the beholder, i.e., if someone feels that an expensive cable makes his system sound better, that is great. For my money, I want to know that the difference is perceivable. 1) Demonstrate that someone, somewhere, on some system can reliably tell the difference, and then I am more than willing to discuss 2) whether that difference constitutes an improvement, and 3) whether that improvement is worth the cost. Does that make me an objectivist/subjectivist/subjectivist? :) I also note that beyond a certain price point, I am predisposed to answer 3) negatively. -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Quote from the article: Dave Clark, Editor of audio review publication Positive Feedback Online describes the ANJOU performance as being ... way better than anything I have heard... He goes on to say, Simply put these are very danceable cables. Music playing through them results in the proverbial foot-tapping scene with the need or desire to get up and move. Great swing and pace--these cables smack that right on the nose big time. The ANJOU Speaker Cable represents the introduction of a completely new hybrid cable geometry developed by Pear Cable. Drawing upon the best characteristics of several more common cable geometries, the resulting hybrid design minimizes the sonic impact of the cable. Annica Kjellberg, President of Pear Cable said, We are extremely pleased that the unique geometry we developed for this cable is getting the attention we think it deserves. The numbers say that it is better, but it is critical to validate numbers with the human ear. This review further solidifies the ANJOU Speaker Cable as a class leading design. I don't mind people saying: In our opinion this cable is better, but when they say the above, then I want prove, and if you can't prove it, you're a fraud. That's how simple it is! -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
There is really only one way to do the following two things simultaneously: 1. Fully include a human's ears *and* brain in a test. 2. Filter out all psychological factors not related to the sound itself. Love it or loathe it, the blind test. This is how things are PROVED. Or - if you prefer - we could spend the next hundred years cataloging our 'impressions', 'indications', 'opinions', 'theories' or 'beliefs' about whether a measurement is relevant to audible quality ;-) Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;234114 Wrote: Quote from the article: ... In our opinion this cable is better, but when they say the above, then I want ... I think when people say in my opinion .., they admit to possibly flawed subjectivity. It's not a categoric statement. At that level people can agree to disagree, and often enrich each other if the discussion is constructive. It's when people try to tell me what is best for me that I raise an eyebrow. If someone came to my home, looked at my stereo, andwhistled through his teeth going wow, I am surprised you have not spent more on cables, really, your system will sound much better, *then* I'd tell them of my conviction they are utterly wrong. Other than that, different strokes for different folks, and it's all cool, because we all have our silos of irrationally passion-driven decisions somewhere...! -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Whats interesting to me is that wars are fought and mega $ spent over marginal differences introduced by well understood and low tech devices that have reached engineering maturity: cables, power supplies, CD players, DAC, op AMPs, For these kinds of devices once you spend 3 times more than the cheapo version you are 99% there. As you know the additional .9% (or whatever) requires an additional x100 cost multiplier. I submit that, unless you take pleasure in departing from your hard earned income, it is not worthed. Note that I am not condemning the pursuit of Audio Nirvana (or any other dream you may have). What I am condemning is that lack of creativity and innovation takes away resources that would provide real, unquestionable leap forwards in the music enjoyment area . The innovative Slimbox is unquestionable better than any CD player: no CDs to juggle. Try to change CDs when blindfolded exactly, cannot beat that! Let see what I would do with $7000: $3000 DEQX PDC - 2.6P $2000 on additional amps for the tri-amp $500 Network Attached Storage RAID server (with slimserver) $500 Room acoustic improvements $500 Wifi PDA as a remote $500 to the wife (helps the sound. Trust me) I submit that digital active crossover, room correction, and a dedicated amp per driver will be easily recognized by the most blind of tester: flatter and wider (more natural) frequency response, much higher dampening (clean sound), much higher dynamic (realistic: 1812 Telarc cannons). With all the big ticket items to explore out there why do we still talk about cables and power supplies? -- arge arge's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6155 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
opaqueice;233551 Wrote: The problem is that the signal is _not_ exactly the same. It's pretty easy to measure the differences between cables. What's much harder is to hear them... Then the conclusion is simple: the cables are not equal. Which one is better is a different question and IMHO very personal. And now the 1 million dollar question: does the difference have any effect and how to measure the difference after the speakers: that shouldn't be to difficult. The funny thing is that most 'audiophiles' are of an age where the hearing has already deteriorated a lot... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Pat Farrell;233614 Wrote: Robin Bowes wrote: Of course 1 + 1 = 2 - that's been mathematically proven. Actually, its usually defined as being true. One of my favorite courses (I've got a Mathematics BS) was looking at the minimal number of hypothesis that you can have, and proving arithmetic as we know it. The minimum is generally called Peano's Postulates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms And there we have the exact problem with 'audiophiles'. You need a minimum number of hypothesis to get going. We need 1 + 1 = 2 to be true to do our mathematics. But when the 'audiophiles' are proven incorrect they want to throw away the 1 + 1 = 2 definition... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
... What has happened in the last few years is that good enough audio gear is available at reasonable prices .. Very true. I just moved to a small apartment temporarily, and no way could I take my audiophile shrine with me. Way too big, too demanding. So I bought some AudioEngine 5s based on positive opinions in this very forum, and I am blown away by how darn satisfying this $1k setup is, compared to by ~$20k home reference system'. It sounds awesome, and its simplicity is so elegant... It is a pretty awesome time to listen to music and be able to really enjoy it without spending a fortune. When I was a struggling student I would have given my left nut for a setup like this, but of course, back then PCs where $10k+... ... The mining process is actually one of the main A Audiophiles sources of delight: the result of that romantic tension towards the unrealized Audio Nirvana dream. There are very rational drivers behind that, though. There are very simple and cost effective measures that provide gains. It does not have to be the esoteric stuff. However, the pursuit of diminshing results with unrelenting passion is at the core of eveery enthusiast hobby if you think about it. Once you buy it the post-purchase guilt is likely to sneak in and spoil the fun (definitely true for expensive audio cables). I have never had that happen to me. I believe good quality cables make a difference. My cutoff for cables is at a few hundred $, though. For my main home system. I would not spend more. But even now with my budget setup, I have every cable replaced, albeit of course not with a single cable that is over $75, it would not make any sesnse... and this setup only needs a couple of cables, of course. The SB3 also has a (moderately priced) linear power supply. And I do not regret any of the moderate things I go for. Do I always hear a measurable difference? No. But I like the peace of mind of knowing the cut corner components that vendors package in as a secondary product are eliminated in my system. It looks better, and honestly it feels that little bit more musical that makes a difference. It's easy, and doesn't hurt. Most cars/hifi gear selection choices can be directly linked to those compulsions that we acquire as child and never leave us: peer pressure, seeking the alpha male status or compensating for some perceived deficiencies Aw come on. *Some* may do it. Some just have a lot of money to spend on a hobby, no questions asked, bless them. And some allocate some of their disposable income to pursue whatever results (diminshing as they get with every $ spent) they like, no harm done. And say nothing to anyone - I do not know a single audiophile that brags, by the way. The ones I have come across are quiet about it, just play the music for some social event, and you nod your head in appreciation, and most people never notice or know. I do believe in moderation and balance. But that is a very relative metric, and I don't expect everybody to live by it. I know genuine audiophiles that came to real money - one of them got the usual BW Nautilus and spent $100k around it... with questionable results, and he knows it. Another one kept the system he'd had all the time and carefully put together, and which is one of the sweetest sounding systems ever, put together for about $10k over many years. It's impossible to paint all audiophiles with generic statements. What I know is that someone that can not tell me much about music they are playing for me to supposedly appreciate their system are questionable music lovers - they are the ones you talk about with the insecurities, and I would not call them audiophiles... -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: Pat Farrell;233614 Wrote: Robin Bowes wrote: Of course 1 + 1 = 2 - that's been mathematically proven. Actually, its usually defined as being true. One of my favorite courses (I've got a Mathematics BS) was looking at the minimal number of hypothesis that you can have, and proving arithmetic as we know it. The minimum is generally called Peano's Postulates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms And there we have the exact problem with 'audiophiles'. You need a minimum number of hypothesis to get going. We need 1 + 1 = 2 to be true to do our mathematics. But when the 'audiophiles' are proven incorrect they want to throw away the 1 + 1 = 2 definition... Pat is not an audiophile. I am not an audiophile. I can't speak for Pat, but I'm a music enthusiast with a background in audio engineering (I have a degree in Electracoustics, worked in recording studios, worked on live sound, etc). I believe Pat has a similar background in audio. The two polar extremes in this field are: 1. Engineer - I don't care what my ears tell me - if you can't measure it, it's not real. We know what we're doing. 2. Audiophile - I swear it sounds better if I write my name on page 42 of a book and put it in the freezer. Really, it does. As always, the reality lies somewhere between the two extremes. Now, I'm not sure what your agenda is, but you appear to be a certified, card-carrying Engineer - and a particularly vociferous example at that. The DBT chestnut is often rolled out on these forums because it is proven that sighted testing is flawed because of the powerful suggestive effect of external influences. This is all very well, but it struck me today that this can work both ways. The whole listening experience is a psychological thing - without your brain processing the information received by your ears you wouldn't hear anything. So, it seems eminently reasonable to me that one way to improve your listening experience is to influence your brain. The ultimate goal here is to enjoy the music; and if performing bizarre rituals enhances your listening experience then so what? Food for thought. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Yes, any thing or any ritual might make you happier about the sound. IME a blind test can make you happier about the sound too (when you discover something you thought you liked makes no difference or makes it worse). Whatever floats your boat mentally. The crucial difference is that blind tests are free. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;233781 Wrote: servies wrote:[color=blue] Pat is not an audiophile. I am not an audiophile. I can't speak for Pat, but I'm a music enthusiast with a background in audio engineering (I have a degree in Electracoustics, worked in recording studios, worked on live sound, etc). I believe Pat has a similar background in audio. The two polar extremes in this field are: 1. Engineer - I don't care what my ears tell me - if you can't measure it, it's not real. We know what we're doing. 2. Audiophile - I swear it sounds better if I write my name on page 42 of a book and put it in the freezer. Really, it does. As always, the reality lies somewhere between the two extremes. Now, I'm not sure what your agenda is, but you appear to be a certified, card-carrying Engineer - and a particularly vociferous example at that. The DBT chestnut is often rolled out on these forums because it is proven that sighted testing is flawed because of the powerful suggestive effect of external influences. This is all very well, but it struck me today that this can work both ways. The whole listening experience is a psychological thing - without your brain processing the information received by your ears you wouldn't hear anything. So, it seems eminently reasonable to me that one way to improve your listening experience is to influence your brain. The ultimate goal here is to enjoy the music; and if performing bizarre rituals enhances your listening experience then so what? R. In that case: why does it seem like you have a problem with debunking a possible fraud? If they claim that their cable is superb compared to others, why can't I ask them to proof it with a valid test. I'm a software engineer that's why I want proof and don't believe in things people hear but can't measure... especially knowing that human ears are extremely limited... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: In that case: why does it seem like you have a problem with debunking a possible fraud? I don't. That's not what this is about. If they claim that their cable is superb compared to others, why can't I ask them to proof it with a valid test. The key word here is valid. What exactly is a valid test? I'm a software engineer that's why I want proof and don't believe in things people hear but can't measure... especially knowing that human ears are extremely limited... The real world is not quite so nice and ordered as software tends to be and therefore is not only harder to measure and quantify, but it is also not easy to know what to measure. Human ears, or more accurately, the human hearing system is an amazing piece of kit and is capable of doing things computers can only dream of. That is why I am sceptical about the we can measure more than we can hear approach. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a card-carrying audiophile nut who believes in snake-oil, but I don't think the reality of the matter is as clear-cut as engineers like yourself seem to think. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin, That was a very balanced and well reasoned post. I suspect many people agree with that middle of the road opinion. I certainly do. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Seconded. I am willing to accept there are things out there we can't measure but we can nonetheless perceive. Cables don't appear to be one of them, they are very well understood...if there were any small-scale variations that had large-scale effects electrical delivery systems would be impossible. Speakers on the other hand, are much more mystical/magical IMHO. They are mechanically and electrically very simple but you can't just bash one together and expect good sound. There is really an art to speakers, even though we've been building them for about 100 years now. Volumes and volumes have been written about them and basic designs really haven't changed but that still doesn't mean a company can manufacture a speaker that people universally like. There are things going on we just can't measure yet, and our brains and how they interpret sound are the limiting factor. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
I like apples better than pears (excuse the pun) but that doesn't make one BETTER than the other, just DIFFERENT. As a fan of Randi, I find it impossible to validate a claim that one thing is better than another. It's all subjective, like most things in life. So not only is this a stupid proposition, but it will never be proven. Maybe for a test, one could go rockclimbing using the cables as ropes. Whichever doesn't send you plunging to your death can be considered the BETTER cable. -- drewe181 http://www.last.fm/user/drewe181/ drewe181's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8129 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm way out to lunch here. Look, we're talking about interconnects here, right? So wouldn't the 'benchmark' be no interconnect at all? - that is, the signal at the output of the amp is the signal at the speaker post - no interconnect. Hmmm... so how do we put this into a test rig? Why not start with an active system where the amp is in the speaker, and then tear it apart and stick 'interconnects' between the amp section and the speaker? One should then be able to argue that if there is any perceivable difference at all, it _must_ be a degradation (I defy anybody to try to tell me that a difference in sound _due_ to an interconnect is an improvement!) Say, can I get a million bucks for proving the cables are a waste of money? -- nicketynick Wireless SB3, Denon DRA-F101, Mission M31 loudspeakers WinXP SP2 Slimserver, SMC WBR14g router http://www.last.fm/user/nicketynick/ nicketynick's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1511 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Yes, absolutely, the best a cable can do is nothing whatsoever. The perfect cable is not danceable, does not have a cavernous soundstage or possess bottomless bass. It just passes the signal through, whatever it may contain - and that might be rubbish - unchanged. We all know the truth about what is important, even if only subconsciously. I am sure we've all walked into a room at hi-fi show and been impressed with a new system we've never heard before. I bet none of us, on such an occasion, thought first this must be incredible speaker cable! Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;233798 Wrote: Human ears, or more accurately, the human hearing system is an amazing piece of kit and is capable of doing things computers can only dream of. That is why I am sceptical about the we can measure more than we can hear approach. R. I think you're giving the human hearing system to much credit. It's extremely limited and it's very limited in it's capabilities of accurately processing sound. The dynamic range is pretty small as is its frequencyrange or directional capabilities. Compared to the system of a lot of other creatures this planet inhabits, it's a piece of crap... Thankfully we learned to circumvent it's limitations otherwise we probably would have been extinct... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;233853 Wrote: I think you're giving the human hearing system to much credit. It's extremely limited and it's very limited in it's capabilities of accurately processing sound. The dynamic range is pretty small as is its frequencyrange or directional capabilities. Compared to the system of a lot of other creatures this planet inhabits, it's a piece of crap... Thankfully we learned to circumvent it's limitations otherwise we probably would have been extinct... Sorry but IMHO this is nonsense. I suppose you'd apply this same philosophy to all of our senses?. And why stop there? After all, the secret of our success as a species is our brain, which is the key to making sense of our senses. You're a software engineer right? - Do you know how the brain works or how to make a computer even approximate the sophistication of the human brain? - no, thought not. Neither does anyone else at this time. You just need to face the fact that there are still more things in heaven and earth than we have dreamed about...and each day we uncover a few more. I fail to understand why you would even bother to listen to music, realising as you do that what you are hearing is so far removed from what it would sound like if only we had decent auditory systemssheesh, that must be frustrating. D'ya think those musicians thought oh well, it's the best we could do with our limited ability to hear the true majesty of what we are trying to create. Makes Beethoven look like a real loser... I am not an audiophile - My background is similar to Pat's and Robin's. I know what I like and I know what I think is better or worse. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I don't believe that $7k cables make any sense at all - as Nick said, the best cable is NO cable!. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;233798 Wrote: Human ears, or more accurately, the human hearing system is an amazing piece of kit and is capable of doing things computers can only dream of. That is why I am sceptical about the we can measure more than we can hear approach. R. I think you're giving the human hearing system to much credit. It's extremely limited and it's very limited in it's capabilities of accurately processing sound. The dynamic range is pretty small as is its frequencyrange or directional capabilities. Compared to the system of a lot of other creatures this planet inhabits, it's a piece of crap... Thankfully we learned to circumvent it's limitations otherwise we probably would have been extinct... I think this illustrates perfectly the concept of measuring the right thing. The power of the human auditory system is not defined by its frequency response, dynamic range, or directional capabilities. The brain overcomes all these supposed flaws to produce a marvellous piece of equipment. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
I think servies has a point, actually. What's really amazing about human hearing is our ability to process the data and extract useful information from it, not the ears themselves. One interesting thing is to estimate (using Shannon) the maximum information capacity of a human ear/brain conduit. You just need to know the bandwidth of nerve impulses and the number of nerves. I'm willing to bet the answer is far below redbook - anyone know? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
opaqueice wrote: I think servies has a point, actually. What's really amazing about human hearing is our ability to process the data and extract useful information from it, not the ears themselves. One interesting thing is to estimate (using Shannon) the maximum information capacity of a human ear/brain conduit. You just need to know the bandwidth of nerve impulses and the number of nerves. I'm willing to bet the answer is far below redbook - anyone know? I don't know the answer, but I'll take that bet. Beer? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Such a fascinating debate. Engineers that need a visual representation, a test, to determine a difference, and audiophiles who supposedly can hear things that can't be tested by manufactured equipment. I guess that last sentence sounds a bit tilted and maybe that gives away my perspective. To stick my neck out, I'll share my story. I purchased a pair of ATC SCM 100 ASLT speakers and took the recommendation of a recording engineer friend that basic balanced interconnect cables were all that I needed given that the speakers are active. I purchased some Whirlwind and Monster xlr cable because they were readily available at a local store. After complaining to other recording engineer friends, it was suggested that I try Belden 1800f cable. I thought balanced interconnects are just balanced interconnects, but sure, I'll try it. To my ear it was a huge improvement. Perhaps this was moving up from inferior cable to acceptable cable or good to great. It probably depends on who you ask. Eventually I purchased an Ayre C5xe cd player and had an audio engineer friend accept receipt of it for me as he and the seller were in the same state on the East Coast. The seller mentioned a high priced pair of interconnects that he was willing to sell me for half price. I had my friend, who after thirty years in the audio engineering business, did not believe in expensive cables and felt they were snake oil compare them to his standard Belden 1800f. To my surprise and his, he preferred the expensive cable. What is even more surprising is that while I like the expensive cable between the cd player and the preamp, I prefer the Belden cable between the preamp and the speakers. So did my friend. Both cable runs are interconnects and the length to the speakers is twenty-five feet compared to three. If anything, I would think that the expensive cable should make a difference in the longer run. In addition, I eventually received a different type of Belden interconnect directly from ATC. It may be solid core as it is so stiff, or it may just be a plenum style of shielding. I can't tell and can't find it on Belden's website. To my ear it sounds different than the 1800f cable. The soundstage is slightly wider but not as tall. There is less high frequency emphasis which I believe is why it sounds shorter for lack of a better term. However, it has a weightier mid-bass that sometimes I prefer to the 1800f. On other tracks, the 1800f seems more natural. I have tried to use piano recordings as a comparison as I grew up playing on a Steinway and have some idea of what I think a piano should sound like. Then again, with all of the different microphone techniques and microphones, not to mention piano timbres and room interactions, I don't know how I could ever tell how perfect a piano reproduction is unless I had access to the recorded piano. Regardless, it is different. I spent quite a bit of time researching cable before I purchased the speakers and came to the conclusion that with so many intelligent, sophisticated, engineering types dismissing the effect of expensive cable, that it must not make any difference. I came up with my own term for snake oil, describing it to friends as audiophile pixie dust and imagined a salesperson sprinkling something over speakers and proclaiming it to make the sound better, while an unsuspecting, gullible, rich enough to not care buyer would struggle to hear a difference and in the end fall victim to the scam for whatever psychological reason. I now fall into a new category. The I have to hear it myself category. This is frustrating because it means that I can't rely on the experience of others in the way that I would like. If someone else can't tell the difference between cables, is it because there is no difference or because the resolution of their system, ears, or ability to critically listen does not allow them to hear the difference. There's no way to know. I do not mean this as an insult to anyone who has auditioned two cables and reports that they are the same. And I certainly do not mean to imply that my capability to critically listen is better than that of anyone else. Furthermore, I have never heard a $7k speaker cable. It better be amazing at that price-point. I really don't see how it is possible. But then again, with an extremely precise system and room, I can't rule out the possibility that it might make a difference. I'd have to hear it myself to make that determination. The reason I have shared my story is to help anyone out there who is struggling to determine whether there is a difference between cables. I hope that you will at least try a comparison yourself, on an accurate system, in a somewhat acoustically sound room. Listen to how many instruments you can hear on a track, how lifelike they each are, what happens to the soundstage, if anything. And I think you have to listen at louder levels, at least 85db so that you can hear the detail
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Ok so I have some mixed feelings on this whole cable thing, I have decent cables under $100 per cable/pair or half that price. I have a lot of heartburn with all this smoke and mirrors routine for ultra expensive audio cables and now power cables are the flavor of the day. I have been to CES the last four years and have seen and listened to some amazing gear, and talked to the designers and owners of the companies. I get the The Absolute Sound, Stereo review and read like a fiend about audio on the internet. I have a decent audio system. I truly love high end audio. I write this to let everyone know I have some idea of the industry as a whole. Ok so when cables or equipment are reviewed, there are some prerequisites like you will advertise with the publication, as is seen with that companies who's equipment was just reviewed ad on the next page probably half the time. Coincedence? Things that make you go H?! Also the reviewer should have to state a few facts besides what is his test gear that he is employing this test component or cable into, like does he live in an apartment(almost always yes!).Which leads me to the next disclosure, size of room that gear is in. The enviroment of the review has a high possibility of being terrible. But I guess as long as he has a $1700 Shunyata power chord it will magically overcome all this. And finally one of the biggest disclosures these audio reviewers should have to disclose is a recent hearing test to show where their hearing is lacking, if it is. I mean Kal Ruben is how old? In your fifty's your upper frequency hearing loss can drop down to somewhere below 10,000 hz. If we knew the reviewer lived in a little crappy apartment with a tiny listening room with a flawed apartment wiring in San Francisco or L.A., and has flawed hearing(ie hearing test). How much weight would that review hold for the majority. No reviewer wants a blind a/b comparison there is nothing monitarily to gain for anyone except the buyer. I am saying maybe we should think for ourselves, and not be told what we should like from someone who might not have the creditionals -- AngorWatts AngorWatts's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Will your local dealers let you take home the power cables and test them yourself? If a dealer will let you take home a power conditioner and all the cables you need to power your system with a no questions asked return policy, why not take them home and try them. Personally, I'm very surprised at what a difference power conditioning and good power cables make. But I'm not sure how good my power is to begin with (if that makes a difference), and I couldn't begin to explain why a power cable would make a difference. Nor could I tell you what brand is the best. But it makes a difference in my system that I can hear and I really appreciate. I would never go back to regular power or cables. I wholeheartedly agree with your skepticism and belief that everyone should think for oneself, and again I would add to listen as well. My neck is starting to quiver. Will _ Transporter - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM 100 ASLT Ayre C5xe - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM 100 ASLT AngorWatts;233968 Wrote: Ok so I have some mixed feelings on this whole cable thing, I have decent cables under $100 per cable/pair or half that price. I have a lot of heartburn with all this smoke and mirrors routine for ultra expensive audio cables and now power cables are the flavor of the day. I have been to CES the last four years and have seen and listened to some amazing gear, and talked to the designers and owners of the companies. I get the The Absolute Sound, Stereo review and read like a fiend about audio on the internet. I have a decent audio system. I truly love high end audio. I write this to let everyone know I have some idea of the industry as a whole. Ok so when cables or equipment are reviewed, there are some prerequisites like you will advertise with the publication, as is seen with that companies who's equipment was just reviewed ad on the next page probably half the time. Coincedence? Things that make you go H?! Also the reviewer should have to state a few facts besides what is his test gear that he is employing this test component or cable into, like does he live in an apartment(almost always yes!).Which leads me to the next disclosure, size of room that gear is in. The enviroment of the review has a high possibility of being terrible. But I guess as long as he has a $1700 Shunyata power chord it will magically overcome all this. And finally one of the biggest disclosures these audio reviewers should have to disclose is a recent hearing test to show where their hearing is lacking, if it is. I mean Kal Ruben is how old? In your fifty's your upper frequency hearing loss can drop down to somewhere below 10,000 hz. If we knew the reviewer lived in a little crappy apartment with a tiny listening room with a flawed apartment wiring in San Francisco or L.A., and has flawed hearing(ie hearing test). How much weight would that review hold for the majority. No reviewer wants a blind a/b comparison there is nothing monitarily to gain for anyone except the buyer. I am saying maybe we should think for ourselves, and not be told what we should like from someone who might not have the creditionals. -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;233963 Wrote: I don't know the answer, but I'll take that bet. Beer? You're on. Being an ocean apart we're probably both pretty safe on this one :-). Actually I'm cheating a little because I once attended a seminar on human vision, and (while I don't recall the details) I do remember that even the optic nerve bundle didn't have that much capacity. The really fascinating thing was that while they hadn't managed to crack the compression scheme (which is crucial if you want to make artificial eyes and help the blind), they did find that whatever it is, it comes very close to saturating Shannon - i.e., it's the most efficient possible compression scheme. Evolution is amazing... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
musiklov3r;233966 Wrote: And I think you have to listen at louder levels, at least 85db so that you can hear the detail of the recording and experience any distortion or coloration that might mask detail. Sometimes just hitting a higher volume level will reveal a cable's harshness on transients. Do that for a couple of hours a day and you won't have to worry about detail any more. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Mark Lanctot;233987 Wrote: Do that for a couple of hours a day and you won't have to worry about detail any more. Unless of course one is already at that level, then I vote for 90db. Makes for a more revealing system and bankbook. . -- haunyack Transporter - BK R200.2 - Vandersteen 3A Signature. (Listening room) SB3 (RWA analog) - Rotel RB1070 - BW Matrix 805. (Bedroom) Fridgidare - Mirror Pond pale ale - easy chair w/remote - irritated neighbors. haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/13/132468.html please read this explains it far better than I can. As in all walks of life there are people who will try to make a fast buck. Look at all the so called hi end cables available for a few dollars on ebay. This is the opposite end of the market where extremely cheap cables are being passed off as good ones. If your uncertain about cables and are able to make four solder connections look up the recipies I've placed in the DIY section. These are cheap [for the most part] and easy to build. Once you have built your own cheap cable [that has a performance of a $100 cable] you can then decide if cables have any effectif not this only tells you that the cable your using has no effect in that system you can't hear the effect the cables having the systems resolution is to low to and therefore the system is masking any changes. this of course goes for any cable if you can't hear the effects the only thing it means is that you can't hear the effects. You can't extrapolate the results to all cables or make any other generalisations. Its easy to make two cables that are exactly the same and then make one sound different...all you do is add a capacitor and a resistor in series across the signal and ground of the cable...transparent do this if you have ever wondered whats inside the little box. Just because I'm writing this does not mean I'm trying to convince you either way nor am I bothered if you can or can't hear any differences...its no skin off my nose. I was also a none believer for the first ten years in the hobby, it was only after hearing the inclusion of a top audioquest cable against the freebies I was using that made me realise quite how much music they were emasculating. My problem was I could never afford the inflated prices ..even $100 was more than I could affordthat was when I decided to see if I could make a cable that was better than the freebie types the rest is history [25 years]. Its rare that I find a system that does not respond to a good cable [note not expensive]. There are components that are immune to the effect thought this is due more often to the connection regime [plug type]causesing rather more strangulation of the signal than any positive effect the cable can make. A recent example of this I was asked to fit a set of rca sockets to a naim cdx to allow the owner to run a set of rca-rca cables to his pre rather than using an adaptor to convert the din5 to rca. Once fitted the cable was swapped back to the din5 and then to rca socketsit was abundantly clear that the din5 and adaptor was taking away a huge chunk of the music information. As an experiment we used a very good ic cable and his stock cable, first both were listened to on the din5/adaptor...there was little to no difference. Then we did the same on the new rca sockets, it was obvious the two cables were very different,one being markedly superior. So much so he purchased my silver gold cable. If you want to check pm Artist on Zerogain.com -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: Phil Leigh;233244 Wrote: Of course, the flaw in this argument is that it assumes we know how to measure the things that make a difference. This is not yet proven. One thing is sure: Nowadays we can measure more precisely than we can hear. And how to measure sound is pretty well known. It's only 'audiophiles' who don't know how to or don't want to know how to... Measuring precisely is not the same thing at all as measuring the right thing. As Phil says, it is not yet proven that we are measuring the right things. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Yet proven is a _very_ strong word. Many, me included, would not accept anything except blind listening comments in determining whether a measurement correlates to a real aspect of perceived sound quality. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Sony DAS-703ES DAC - Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes;233477 Wrote: servies wrote: Phil Leigh;233244 Wrote: Of course, the flaw in this argument is that it assumes we know how to measure the things that make a difference. This is not yet proven. One thing is sure: Nowadays we can measure more precisely than we can hear. And how to measure sound is pretty well known. It's only 'audiophiles' who don't know how to or don't want to know how to... Measuring precisely is not the same thing at all as measuring the right thing. As Phil says, it is not yet proven that we are measuring the right things. R. -IT'S ONLY 'AUDIOPHILES' WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO OR DON'T WANT TO KNOW HOW TO...- Do I need to write anything more? By the same kind of reasoning: 1 + 1 = 2 or isn't it? -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Once upon a time nobody measured jitter or IMD - now everyone does. Tomorrow someone might uncover something else important to measure. QED. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;233504 Wrote: Yawn... If you test 2 cables for the signal they produce and the signal is exactly the same then they are exactly the same. Only the 'audiophiles' will still buy the $7000 version because these persons have such good ears that they hear the unmeasurable difference between them... That once upon a time is probably the era where we started using the telegraph... Actually it was the 70's (imd) and the early 90's (jitter). So how do you reconcile the fact that two amps that measure the same (or two dacs or two transports) can sound different? Are you saying that they don't? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Phil Leigh;233490 Wrote: Once upon a time nobody measured jitter or IMD - now everyone does. Tomorrow someone might uncover something else important to measure. QED. Yawn... If you test 2 cables for the signal they produce and the signal is exactly the same then they are exactly the same. Only the 'audiophiles' will still buy the $7000 version because these persons have such good ears that they hear the unmeasurable difference between them... That once upon a time is probably the era where we started using the telegraph... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
opaqueice;233551 Wrote: The problem is that the signal is _not_ exactly the same. It's pretty easy to measure the differences between cables. What's much harder is to hear them... Interesting counter argument! So we may be able to hear things we can't yet measure...and we can measure things we may not be able to hear. Not sure where that leaves us, except that it probably annoys and delights everyone equally o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;233477 Wrote: Measuring precisely is not the same thing at all as measuring the right thing. As Phil says, it is not yet proven that we are measuring the right things. R. -IT'S ONLY 'AUDIOPHILES' WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO OR DON'T WANT TO KNOW HOW TO...- Do I need to write anything more? By the same kind of reasoning: 1 + 1 = 2 or isn't it? YOU CAN SHOUT AS LOUD AS YOU LIKE, IT WON'T MAKE YOU ANY MORE CORRECT. I'm not sure what the relevance of the 1 + 1 = 2 thing is. Of course 1 + 1 = 2 - that's been mathematically proven. However, it has *not* been proven that we know how to measure the things that make a difference. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Robin Bowes wrote: Of course 1 + 1 = 2 - that's been mathematically proven. Actually, its usually defined as being true. One of my favorite courses (I've got a Mathematics BS) was looking at the minimal number of hypothesis that you can have, and proving arithmetic as we know it. The minimum is generally called Peano's Postulates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms Plus there is a standard MBA joke about a CEO interviewing new CFOs, all of which have Harvard MBAs. The CEO interviews about inventory accounting theory, tax laws, etc. and then asks how much is 1+1? and when the interviewees say 2 the CEO says thank you very much over and over until one bright MBA responds with what do you want it to equal? ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Randi should expand this to include amps, cd players, phono cartridges, lossless formats, and much more. Of course someone will always find fault in the testing methods but in reality difference are far more subtle then similarities in much of audio. -- abelincoln abelincoln's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12875 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;233069 Wrote: Yes exactly what is better ? different is easy but one person better is anothers worse. Theres a thread on the audio asylum digital that puts this spurious challenge to bed with a spanked bottom. The problem will probably that the conclusions drawn there are incorrect. There is a simple rule: 99.9% of audiophile are actually audio-idiots who only need a reason for their huge investments. $7000 for a simple speakercable is nonsense, Just give them your money and then think: I gave them my money and now my system sounds superior That has about the same effect... It's simple: If you can't measure the difference, then there is no difference! -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
servies;233241 Wrote: It's simple: If you can't measure the difference, then there is no difference! Of course, the flaw in this argument is that it assumes we know how to measure the things that make a difference. This is not yet proven. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Phil Leigh;233244 Wrote: Of course, the flaw in this argument is that it assumes we know how to measure the things that make a difference. This is not yet proven. One thing is sure: Nowadays we can measure more precisely than we can hear. And how to measure sound is pretty well known. It's only 'audiophiles' who don't know how to or don't want to know how to... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;233069 Wrote: Theres a thread on the audio asylum digital that puts this spurious challenge to bed with a spanked bottom. I don't particularly care one way or another, but I couldn't find a thread that clearly dismissed the challenge. As far as I know, he has the money held by a 3rd party and the reason for requiring a media presence is that he wants the reviewers or manufacturers to come forwards, not crazies. It would seem to me that you for one have confidence in your abilities to tell the difference, so why not go for it? If the rules are unfair, then what should they be? If someone can prove these cables do deliver what they promise, I'm sure many people would be happy. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Yes exactly what is better ? different is easy but one person better is anothers worse. Theres a thread on the audio asylum digital that puts this spurious challenge to bed with a spanked bottom. -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
The fact is the Audiophiles gain as much enjoyment from tinkering with the gear, compare it, thinking about it, touch it and re-arrange it as a listening to room optimized sound. There is nothing wrong with that! What has happened in the last few years is that good enough audio gear is available at reasonable prices; you just have to mine it out from the ton of garbage mixed with it. The mining process is actually one of the main Audiophiles sources of delight: the result of that romantic tension towards the unrealized Audio Nirvana dream. Once you buy it the post-purchase guilt is likely to sneak in and spoil the fun (definitely true for expensive audio cables). Same is happening with most mainstream cars (finally!). The value-segment is now comfortable enough, powerful enough and with enough quality. BMW has to put a V10 -500hp in their M5 to rise above a Saturn V6 Aura. BTW modern 4 cylinders are arguably an even better value. Most cars/hifi gear selection choices can be directly linked to those compulsions that we acquire as child and never leave us: peer pressure, seeking the alpha male status or compensating for some perceived deficiencies Which is why my 5w stereo Just kidding. We (first world employed guys and girls), for the first time in history, live in the world of plenty. Spend your $ responsibly. On the other hand buy the $7000 cable and put your wealth back in the economy life cycle. But when you click the check-out button keep you hart rate low, you know, to reduce CO2 emissions. -- arge arge's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6155 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
arge;233139 Wrote: On the other hand buy the $7000 cable and put your wealth back in the economy life cycle. Hardly. All that benefits is the very small niche company that puts out such nonsense. I bet there's an astounding profit margin. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
The killer for me on this Randi application is the pretest. It states that JREF will run you through a pretest which is specifically stated NOT to be your protocol, and it doesn't sound like you have any say in the matter of the pretest. So lets say you come up with a protocol you like using your equiptment or whatever. They can have you go to their headquarters with the cable hooked up to a boom box and if you can't tell the difference in that situation they deny your application. Well with that sort of clause they can do whatever they want to throw out any applicant they want. The other one thats interesting is the media presence clause. In order to be an applicant you have to be a celebrity, or published, or have a recomendation from someone they will consider an expert that you have this ability. So not only do you have to prove it to Randi, you have to prove it to somebody on their expert list FIRST. This is fair? John S. PS I use 18 gauge long crystal magnet wire for my speaker cable, about $2 per foot. I usually CAN hear the difference with expensive cables, they almost always sound worse than the magnet wire. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Sure it's fair. If they didn't have any filters on this they would have every yahoo in north america trying to win their $1M. Imagine spending the rest of your life going through test after test with people who refuse to believe in the laws of nature. -- Bizarroterl Bizarroterl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13250 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Bizarroterl;233043 Wrote: with people who refuse to believe in the laws of nature. And messing up the restroom. . -- haunyack Transporter - BK R200.2 - Vandersteen 3A Signature. (Listening room) SB3 (RWA analog) - Rotel RB1070 - BW Matrix 805. (Bedroom) Fridgidare - Mirror Pond pale ale - easy chair w/remote - irritated neighbors. haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Have a look at the tests they've done in the past. If people could actually do what they claim they would have lost their $1M long ago. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
In his masterpiece, Leo Beranek came up with what is commonly referred to as Beranek's law. It is intended to warn loudpeaker designers from drinking their own Kool-Aid. It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion. L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208. Perhaps the situation also pertains to cables and cable designers? Perhaps some cables sound different than other. Do they sound better? Worse? Does it have to sound better in order to justify 7k or does sounds funny also warrants a high tag? What does better sound like? I don't know why the Pear manufacturer doesn't just do a blind AB-ing test and take the million. Results can't be contested, it is cheap and there are many AES researchers who can manage such a test. Should be the easiest thing to do... -al -- assafl assafl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
These overpriced Pear cables remind me of a review on Tara Lab's The Zero cables I read in Stereophile. A pair of interconnects for a paltry $15K USD! http://www.stereophile.com/cables/1206tara/index.html ' There are plenty of audiophiles out there who have what's technically referred to as F---you money. They can afford to blow $40,000 or $50,000 on cables for their audio systems. I don't think there's a one of them who would hear the TARA Labs Zero and not buy it without hesitation. I wonder if anyone's had them installed and then rejected them. I doubt it. ' :-\ -- USAudio SB3 - PS Audio Digital Link III - PS Audio Trio C-100 - Revel Concerta F12's + SVS SB12-Plus USAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8580 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Pat Farrell;232214 Wrote: So you really pushing 30 amps down your speaker wires? :-) Of course, I can't talk much, I've got some Cardas that are probably also 10 gauge. Came bundled with my amp and speakers. Lets see, 30 amps at 4 ohms 30*30*4 = 3600 watts. It's not the current, it's the resistance. One doesn't use large speaker wire because they are worried about overheating the wire due to total current. Rather one uses large wire so that it's total resistance is very low compared to the resistance of the wire in the speaker voice coil. One can get the same effective resistance with a shorter run of smaller wire. The best of both worlds is a short run of large wire. 30A through 10 AWG copper wire is based on not overheating in a 60C power raceway. Most likely the speaker voice coils would catch fire or, as usually happens, just burn through at a weak spot like a fuse element, well before 10 AWG, or even 18 AWG wire connecting them to the amp would overheat. I have heard some funny stories about so-called Flame Linear (Phase Linear brand) amps or the speakers they were attached to going up in flames after the transistors went into thermal runaway. Never saw it personnally; the wosrt that ever happened to the Phase Linears in my PA rig back in the day was that they overheated and blew the fuses. :) -- Timothy Stockman Timothy Stockman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8867 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;231990 Wrote: Now why would you want to believe some one who's business is to dupe you, ie an illusionist ? The last time I bothered to check ...the small print and exceptions would make it more than impossible to show sound changes between cable. Let alone things like amps or cdp. I can easily test two dissimilar cables [ic] in my own system an show to anyone who cares to pop in for a listen that they will sound different.My test method if you want to try something yourself. the cdp is quad99cdp2 with a fixed and variable output...the difference in sound between these two outputs is non existant using two identical cables. Fit cable A to the variable fit cable B to the fixed output [set the varriable to full output] these are then both taken to a quad 77pre using inputs 1 and 2 which are both electrically identical. Using the hand set to switch between the two, its possible to discriminate between dissimilar cable. Obviously the more different they are the bigger the perceived sound differences. Interestingly using this method with identical cables but different plugs you can hear the effect that various makes of rca connectors have on the signal passing through the cables. Its very clear that some of the more costly plugs don't sound as good as some of those with less base metal ie eichmann silver bullets are the best I've heard at any price but neutrik sy series at about 10% of the cost run them very close.The worse ones are those with two part earth returns that are crimped ie the cheap sort you'd get from maplin in the uk. Only slightly better are the big heavy wbt clones canare and audio note are particularly good but at a price. Remember Randi is an illusionist and therefore he's going to have any so called test weighted heavily in his favourhe's certainly not going to want to payout the illusionary million dollars. I'm happy to let people make there own minds up ...where as some people [randi ?] would like you to conform to there way of thinking. of course this is only my opinion and everyone is allowed to have ! Just don't believe things till you've heard it for yourselves i find his tests very fair and relied alot on statistical confidence levels (which is what scientific studies use). -- Konig Konig's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8490 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Mark Lanctot;232212 Wrote: If Proctor Gamble marketed laundry detergent like exotic cable manufacturers marketed cables, they would have been sued into the stone age... If it is night and day (like it ALWAYS is) then two words: PROVE IT. The onus of proof is on the one making the unverifiable claim. If the difference is that big you ought to be able to drag a crack-head in off the street and he'd be able to tell the difference. But it doesn't even have to go that far, you'd be the one doing the proving using your own test that you devise. What could be easier? Indeed. Bravo. -- totoro Perl is the Ron Jeremy of programming languages. totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Pat Farrell;231962 Wrote: I bet he wants DBT proof From Digg, this link: http://tinyurl.com/2ncuhd James Randi Offers $1 Million If Audiophiles Can Prove $7250 Speaker Cables Are Better. I saw a video talk by James Randi. He is amazingly cool. One of the situations he talked about was the affect that causes people to think they perceive a stimulus if they think they should. He put a large magnet on a wooden table and had a person wave the coat hanger wire over it, of course the magnet pulled at the wire. He then covered the magnet with a cardboard box while using simple magician slight of hand tricks removed the magnet and put it in his pocket. The person still thought they could feel the magnet pull on the wire even though there was no magnet. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Now why would you want to believe some one who's business is to dupe you, ie an illusionist ? The last time I bothered to check ...the small print and exceptions would make it more than impossible to show sound changes between cable. Let alone things like amps or cdp. I can easily test two dissimilar cables [ic] in my own system an show to anyone who cares to pop in for a listen that they will sound different.My test method if you want to try something yourself. the cdp is quad99cdp2 with a fixed and variable output...the difference in sound between these two outputs is non existant using two identical cables. Fit cable A to the variable fit cable B to the fixed output [set the varriable to full output] these are then both taken to a quad 77pre using inputs 1 and 2 which are both electrically identical. Using the hand set to switch between the two, its possible to discriminate between dissimilar cable. Obviously the more different they are the bigger the perceived sound differences. Interestingly using this method with identical cables but different plugs you can hear the effect that various makes of rca connectors have on the signal passing through the cables. Its very clear that some of the more costly plugs don't sound as good as some of those with less base metal ie eichmann silver bullets are the best I've heard at any price but neutrik sy series at about 10% of the cost run them very close.The worse ones are those with two part earth returns that are crimped ie the cheap sort you'd get from maplin in the uk. Only slightly better are the big heavy wbt clones canare and audio note are particularly good but at a price. Remember Randi is an illusionist and therefore he's going to have any so called test weighted heavily in his favourhe's certainly not going to want to payout the illusionary million dollars. I'm happy to let people make there own minds up ...where as some people [randi ?] would like you to conform to there way of thinking. of course this is only my opinion and everyone is allowed to have ! Just don't believe things till you've heard it for yourselves -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;231990 Wrote: Now why would you want to believe some one who's business is to dupe you, ie an illusionist ? Give me a break. The guy is probably the best known scientific skeptic in the USA as of the last 30 years, has written several books on the subject, was awarded a MacArthur grant for his work, and established an educational foundation (the one that would award the $1 million). The fact that he was once a stage magician hardly damages his credibility - on the contrary, it makes him an expert in misdirection, which is what you just rather clumsily attempted. Now why don't you go use your golden ears to become a millionaire? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
James Randi has offered million-dollar prizes in several other fields as well. To date he has never awarded any money, although he has had claimants. Gee, the test conditions don't seem to be that stringent: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html The money does indeed exist, held by a third party: 9. At the formal test, in advance, an independent person will be placed in charge of a personal check from James Randi for US$10,000. In the event that the claimant is successful under the agreed-upon terms and conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of US$1,000,000. One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail. James Randi, as a former professional illusionist, is intimately aware of the power of placebo, the power of suggestion and misdirection and it is precisely because he is such an expert in the field and sees it used so often in many areas to delude others that he does this. There is even a claim that audiophile nuts have actually killed the hobby, preventing it from ever going mainstream. http://www.randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 I would say there is some truth to that. People who don't believe cables make a difference or do not have 5 figures+ invested in their equipment are made to feel ashamed, ridiculed and belittled for their lack of resources to devote to the hobby, for their inferior hearing abilities or for their adherence to known scientific and engineering principles. It's very intimidating for a newbie and it turns off 99% of the public at large. Which is too bad, because the public at large now believes that good sound comes from 128 kbps MP3 on an iPod or from Bose cubes. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
his business is as an illusionist ..that says it all I don't consider myself to have golden ears...there the same fleshy colour as everyone elses. More to the point why don't you think cables can make a difference ? if you were to get a cable of a slightly higher resistance will that change the sound ? the answer is it has to to maintain ohms law, lowering the signal level and therefore its changed the sound. Cables have two other factors capacitance and inductance if you change one or other of these you change the efect the cable has on the sound. You can then talk about metallurgy of the conductors, there are so many factors at play it amazes me that some people think that this would have no effect on the signal passing through. The next question I always ask is what cables do you use ? its often a surprise to read the answers as almost nobody uses the freebies...but these should sound as good as $1000 set if all cables sound the same ? -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;232067 Wrote: More to the point why don't you think cables can make a difference ? Of course cables make a difference, but is there a difference between expensive cables and horribly expensive cables? And can those differences be measured or detected -- funkstar funkstar's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
funkstar;232069 Wrote: Of course cables make a difference, but is there a difference between expensive cables and horribly expensive cables? And can those differences be measured or detected I'm sure many think there are. Proving it though is the million dollar question. The standard audiophile response is to attack the credibility of the tester and the test itself. If they can't prove their point then the test is rigged. :rolleyes: Once one has faith, then their belief is always right, regardless of the facts. -- Bizarroterl Bizarroterl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13250 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Ah yes but does he have the golden ears all the audiophiles have? Probably not. He's getting on in years, his HF hearing probably isn't perfect. A million dollars does buy a lot of stuff, even Pear Anjou cables. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Everyone knows the Pear Bartlett, Comice and Bosc blow the Anjous out of the water! -- Videodrome Two-channel System: SB3 - Behringer SRC2496 - Musiland MD-10 DAC; Outlaw 970 Pre/Pro; McCormack DNA-125 amplifier; Quad 11L speakers; Sota Sapphire ttbl. w/ Grado Ref. Platinum Cartridge - Rolls Bellari VP-129 tube phono stage; Marantz 10b; Nakamichi RX505; Cables Used: DH Labs, Van den Hul, Distech, Monster, many more. Videodrome's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11727 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Now why would you want to believe some one who's business is to dupe you, ie an illusionist ? You mean like people that make $7250 speaker cables? ;-) -- Kurt Main Entry: au·dio·phile Pronunciation: 'o-dE-O-fI(-)l Function: noun : a person who takes the pursuit of high-fidelity sound reproduction so seriously that they don't have to listen to music anymore. Kurt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2153 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;232067 Wrote: his business is as an illusionist ..that says it all It does? What does it say? Can you give us an actual _logical_ argument why it follows from the fact that he worked as a magician that he is in some way duplicitous in his attack on this aspect of audiophilia? Please note that a further incantation of this mantra does _not_ constitute a logical argument. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
zanash;231990 Wrote: Now why would you want to believe some one who's business is to dupe you, ie an illusionist ? You mean like you , Zanash? After all, you are a cable maker. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
opaqueice;232195 Wrote: However the situations in which they are audible are typically very extreme (like 30 feet of 24 gauge zip cord compared to decent cables), and even in those extreme cases level matching makes it MUCH harder to hear the differences. OK... so which ones sound better? ;) -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
