Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Omega -- Ejorne Ejorne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Enough with this. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;251502 Wrote: Hi! The 21 of january -08 we gonna meet Hammers friend at the Royal Institute of Technology to see if we can track this thing down. regards /mats :-) Well... this topic still is in the air it seems. I thought id died a while ago. I will put 21 januari (or better 22 or 23 januari) in my agenda to take a look at this topic. I am aroused curiosity... -- Ejorne Ejorne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hi! The 21 of january -08 we gonna meet Hammers friend at the Royal Institute of Technology to see if we can track this thing down. regards /mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225772 Wrote: Your best course of action is, obviously, to tell the customer off for being an idiot, and that you have better things to do than listening to BS like that. That's part one of course 101 in Customer Relations. This is at least the second time you've declared in a huff you were leaving the forum permanently and then come back a little later. I see the time off hasn't improved your personality. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Robin Bowes;225780 Wrote: P Floding wrote: seanadams;225730 Wrote: Yes. I have presented a plausible explanation which is supported by 100% of the evidence at hand, and I have explained why it is so. I have also explained why other mysterious phenomena, such as jitter, would not cause the reported symptoms. Do I think I'm right? Yes. Do I mind if I'm wrong? No. As I said earlier, I would welcome evidence to the contrary, but given my level of certainty and all the other circumstances surrounding this issue, I have better things to do than to go looking for new evidence myself. Is that really what you expect me to do here? If so, how would you suggest I go about it even if I wanted to? Your best course of action is, obviously, to tell the customer off for being an idiot, and that you have better things to do than listening to BS like that. That's part one in 101 in customer relations. Of course, Sean can't do that. I, however, can. Stop being an idiot - Sean is being entirely reasonable in his approach and has got better things to do that listen to your BS. R. Mr. Bowes, He already has. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
opaqueice;225827 Wrote: This is at least the second time you've declared in a huff you were leaving the forum permanently and then come back a little later. I see the time off hasn't improved your personality. Is it? Nice to see you too! And you haven't changed a bit. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225807 Wrote: Mr. Bowes, He already has. No, he hasn't. Although you certainly deserve it. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding wrote: seanadams;225730 Wrote: Yes. I have presented a plausible explanation which is supported by 100% of the evidence at hand, and I have explained why it is so. I have also explained why other mysterious phenomena, such as jitter, would not cause the reported symptoms. Do I think I'm right? Yes. Do I mind if I'm wrong? No. As I said earlier, I would welcome evidence to the contrary, but given my level of certainty and all the other circumstances surrounding this issue, I have better things to do than to go looking for new evidence myself. Is that really what you expect me to do here? If so, how would you suggest I go about it even if I wanted to? Your best course of action is, obviously, to tell the customer off for being an idiot, and that you have better things to do than listening to BS like that. That's part one in 101 in customer relations. Of course, Sean can't do that. I, however, can. Stop being an idiot - Sean is being entirely reasonable in his approach and has got better things to do that listen to your BS. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
seanadams;225730 Wrote: Yes. I have presented a plausible explanation which is supported by 100% of the evidence at hand, and I have explained why it is so. I have also explained why other mysterious phenomena, such as jitter, would not cause the reported symptoms. Do I think I'm right? Yes. Do I mind if I'm wrong? No. As I said earlier, I would welcome evidence to the contrary, but given my level of certainty and all the other circumstances surrounding this issue, I have better things to do than to go looking for new evidence myself. Is that really what you expect me to do here? If so, how would you suggest I go about it even if I wanted to? Your best course of action is, obviously, to tell the customer off for being an idiot, and that you have better things to do than listening to BS like that. That's part one in 101 in customer relations. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
One question P Floding besides this smalltalk here atm. You, your Tact and your SB3 seem to have gone thru lots of evolution regarding your many improving reports all the time... Do you hear the defect that is described in this thread? -- Wombat Transporter - monoblocks - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Like 'truckfighters' and 'SoftWireEngineer', I too once recently had a problem with my SB3 that was fixed by unplugging/replugging the power source. When turning on the stereo system, a low-level but mid-to-high tone whining sound was coming through the speakers. I didn't know at first what component it was coming from, and at that time I was using the analog-outs of the SB3. During my troubleshooting steps, I noticed that when I unplugged the network cable from the SB3, the sound stopped after about 5-10 seconds (as the SB3 ultimately reacted to losing the network connection). Since the sound did persist for that 5-10 second period after unplugging the network cable, and since no other cable but the power was connected to the SB3 at the time, the sound was clearly coming from the SB3 itself and through its analog-outs. Finally, unplugging/replugging the power connection at the SB3 got rid of the whine sound - and fortunately it hasn't returned (although I am running digital-out to a DAC now, so even if the issue did occur again, it might not be as noticeable again). -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
I'm not sure why Logitech seem to base all responses on the assumption that their product is flawless? I have never heard of a body of code that is bug-free. Also, end-users can't be expected to roll out a full-fledged digital and EE test environment. Not even if they are positive they can hear a problem. I agree that placebo is the most likely casuse here, but the initial discovery is less likely to be a placebo effect since it seems like one of those unexpected findings. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
seanadams;225665 Wrote: I don't. I base them on extensive knowledge of digital audio, how the product is designed, what has been tested already, what kinds of phenomena people often hear or think they are hearing, and what are the most plausible explanations for them. I employ the scientific method to determine the facts of the situation using careful observation and simple controls, because I understand the fallibility of our senses. I believe it is perfectly sensible to assume that the device is operating correctly until observation shows otherwise. Nobody is saying that the product is flawless. It's just a process of eliminating the most likely explanations first. The SB3 must be a pretty advanced device -a small computer in fact. As a user I have no real insight into what is going on in there. Are there not possibilities of processes misbehaving -CPU hogging, for example, screwing up (to some degree) real-time demands? Perhaps looking into the more advanced debugging options could be a possibility to see if things are problematic? Can Slimserver alter play back quality on the fly (or after pause) if bandwidth is decided to be too low? Or is the transcoding option a static function only? (I haven't used this feature much.) Just a couple of thoughts while we wait for the results of that double blind test. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
The DT-Passthrough ability pretty well removes oddities like that from the digital outputs. If there was such a problem, encoded material would sound not just subtly off, but like noise. (The SB and Transporter are both dumb: they just decode flac and put it on the output... they don't bother with transforming it in any way...) No one has complained that playing DTS encoded flacs makes the second track go to white noise until you pause/play it. That would be a glaring error in the firmware... and it is exactly what would show up if the OP's observations were real and not imagined. Again, the SB/Transporter doesn't know if something is encoded or not: it just sends the uncompressed stream on. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
snarlydwarf;225685 Wrote: The DT-Passthrough ability pretty well removes oddities like that from the digital outputs. If there was such a problem, encoded material would sound not just subtly off, but like noise. (The SB and Transporter are both dumb: they just decode flac and put it on the output... they don't bother with transforming it in any way...) No one has complained that playing DTS encoded flacs makes the second track go to white noise until you pause/play it. That would be a glaring error in the firmware... and it is exactly what would show up if the OP's observations were real and not imagined. Again, the SB/Transporter doesn't know if something is encoded or not: it just sends the uncompressed stream on. You can never dismiss reported bugs/problems on the basis that others would have seen this or that. Bugs are sometimes triggered by circumstances that may be particular to just a few users. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225689 Wrote: You can never dismiss reported bugs/problems on the basis that others would have seen this or that. Bugs are sometimes triggered by circumstances that may be particular to just a few users. Bugs that are not reproducible are impossible to diagnose. This is true of computers as well as cars. My car makes a funny noise, but stops when I take it to the shop problems go back 100 years. It is actually more true of computers than cars: the nature of digital computers makes their behavior predictable excepting for very very few environmental factors (compared to a car, which has thousands of moving parts, tons of vibrations, etc). Can you provide a test case where this can be seen/heard/diagnosed is essential to fixing bugs... It is hardly a sin to ask for a demonstration. If a bug can not be reproduced or demonstrated, then how on earth is it to be fixed? -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
snarlydwarf;225692 Wrote: Can you provide a test case where this can be seen/heard/diagnosed is essential to fixing bugs... It is hardly a sin to ask for a demonstration. If a bug can not be reproduced or demonstrated, then how on earth is it to be fixed? This actually warrants a separate reply! I don't know if you have noticed, but today Windows gathers local information about the problem on the actual computer where the problem occurs. Recreating the massive amount of possible permutations of end user configurations in the lab is too time consuming just to see if there actually is a bug. And asking end users to provide proof, or else tell them there is no problem, is bound to piss users off. (Not to mention let loads of bugs linger.) -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
snarlydwarf;225718 Wrote: I did no such thing. I said it was perfectly valid to ask for information in order to reproduce the report. Well you seemed very impressed by it. As I said, it was irrelevant to the discussion. And in the case in question, the dependencies consist of the files in question and the firmware version. It is just like a PC in the same way that a bacteria is just like a human. Windows bug reporting mechanism has nothing to do with it. Please file an enhancement request for Automatic Bug Reporting addition where anyone can send in an automatic bug report with their entire system configuration, the tags from their library, etc, and have the same swift response to their bug reports that Microsoft provides. I am sure you have used that Send Bug thing and have heard back from MS about how useful the information you provided was in making the Windows Experience what it is. They certainly wouldn't silently discard all those reports, would they. Jeee... I think I'll leave it at that. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
snarlydwarf;225707 Wrote: It does? Why? Wow, Windows innovated ' reportbug' (http://packages.debian.org/etch/reportbug)! Debian has done that since at least 1999. BFD. I don't see any relevance to the rest of the post either: wtf does have the right DLL's on your Windows box have to do with the firmware in a Squeezebox? You implied that it was the end user's responsibilty to hand info on a plate to the manufacturer in order to be able to reproduce bugs. I can't remember saying anything at all about who invented automatic system status reporting? The SB is a complex multitasking device, just like a PC. It can have hard-to-diagnose issues just like a PC. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
seanadams;225708 Wrote: You're confusing the issue by conflating not reproducible with caused by placebo effect. I don't think that the placebo effect would be likely to convince you that your brakes are failing even though they're working correctly. So you have indeed already decided what is the issue here? Placebo, user error, what's the difference? They at least didn't tell me that I must have pressed the accellerator instead of the brake pedal.. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225697 Wrote: My swedish made car from some years ago, who's brand shall remain name-less, but starts with an S, had a scary brake problem that only I experienced, and I was unable to reproduce at will. You're confusing the issue by conflating not reproducible with caused by placebo effect. I don't think that the placebo effect would be likely to convince you that your brakes are failing even though they're working correctly. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
snarlydwarf;225692 Wrote: Bugs that are not reproducible are impossible to diagnose. This is true of computers as well as cars. My car makes a funny noise, but stops when I take it to the shop problems go back 100 years. It is actually more true of computers than cars: the nature of digital computers makes their behavior predictable excepting for very very few environmental factors (compared to a car, which has thousands of moving parts, tons of vibrations, etc). Can you provide a test case where this can be seen/heard/diagnosed is essential to fixing bugs... It is hardly a sin to ask for a demonstration. If a bug can not be reproduced or demonstrated, then how on earth is it to be fixed? Not reproducible off-site, given known data, and not reproducible at all are two different things. Funny you should mention cars! My swedish made car from some years ago, who's brand shall remain name-less, but starts with an S, had a scary brake problem that only I experienced, and I was unable to reproduce at will. S**B tested the car and replaced various parts. The never found any problem, but they never hinted that I might be imagining things. Later the MOT (annual test) guys discovered that a brake hose had a flaw in the wall that allowed a rubber balloon to form outside the hose at certain pressures -thus instantly reducing hydralic pressure to zero. Scary stuff! So just because sometimes things seem impossible, it ain't always necessarily so. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225711 Wrote: So you have indeed already decided what is the issue here? Yes. I have presented a plausible explanation which is supported by 100% of the evidence at hand, and I have explained why it is so. I have also explained why other mysterious phenomena, such as jitter, would not cause the reported symptoms. Do I think I'm right? Yes. Do I mind if I'm wrong? No. As I said earlier, I would welcome evidence to the contrary, but given my level of certainty and all the other circumstances surrounding this issue, I have better things to do than to go looking for new evidence myself. Is that really what you expect me to do here? If so, how would you suggest I go about it even if I wanted to? -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225715 Wrote: You implied that it was the end user's responsibilty to hand info on a plate to the manufacturer in order to be able to reproduce bugs. I did no such thing. I said it was perfectly valid to ask for information in order to reproduce the report. I can't remember saying anything at all about who invented automatic system status reporting? Well you seemed very impressed by it. As I said, it was irrelevant to the discussion. The SB is a complex multitasking device, just like a PC. It can have hard-to-diagnose issues just like a PC. And in the case in question, the dependencies consist of the files in question and the firmware version. It is just like a PC in the same way that a bacteria is just like a human. Windows bug reporting mechanism has nothing to do with it. Please file an enhancement request for Automatic Bug Reporting addition where anyone can send in an automatic bug report with their entire system configuration, the tags from their library, etc, and have the same swift response to their bug reports that Microsoft provides. I am sure you have used that Send Bug thing and have heard back from MS about how useful the information you provided was in making the Windows Experience what it is. They certainly wouldn't silently discard all those reports, would they. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
P Floding;225699 Wrote: This actually warrants a separate reply! It does? Why? I don't know if you have noticed, but today Windows gathers local information about the problem on the actual computer where the problem occurs. Wow, Windows innovated ' reportbug' (http://packages.debian.org/etch/reportbug)! Debian has done that since at least 1999. BFD. I don't see any relevance to the rest of the post either: wtf does have the right DLL's on your Windows box have to do with the firmware in a Squeezebox? -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hi Again! Both me and Hammer are back from Holiday. We are waiting to get some help from Hammers friend at the Royal Institute of Technology. He is a researcher and has very limited time. Things may take a while, But please be patient. We realy like to track this thing down. I have tried Audiodiffmaker but i got strange results, Both With my CD and the SB3. After reading this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=37352 I will not continue with Audiodiffmaker And Johann You are welcome to listen at my home here in Stockholm to this Thing maybe you don´t have to feel ashame to be Swedish... Send me a private message, how to contact you etc. If you are interested. Regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
They're BCK I am so excited to see that this important issue will be resolved :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
topic-kick: omega;218198 Wrote: Anyway both me and hammer are soon leaving sweden for a couple of weeks during vacation. So all this measuring and testing is put on hold for a while. Back from vacation meanwhile? I am curious about the continuation of your findings/testings... -- Ejorne Ejorne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Phil Leigh;224202 Wrote: They went to Greece... That explains a lot... considering how inflamatory their remarks were over here... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
schatzy;218599 Wrote: If Omega thinks there is a difference between the first track played and the second played and that it makes a difference turning if off and then back on that is his opinion and no one should or has the right to tell him he is wrong. That is how his ears hear it. Maybe mine do not but that does not make omega wrong. Your atomized world of universal relativity is all fine and dandy. We each hear with our own ears, in our own rooms, though our own minds etc. Unfortunately that sort of philosophy doesn't help us all get together to fix something, because if there is a fault to fix it must be reproducible and observable by more than Omega. The reason why he is taking some flack is because - read the title - he claimed this second playing effect was a DESIGN MISS (implied = FAULT) in the slim devices product. It might be, but if it is a design fault, then it is *repeatable for different observers*. Different observers were unable to repeat it. Omega might still have a sample fault, in which case it will be repeatable - but for him. It will be independently observable, hopefully on test gear, but for his particular box only. Or, perhaps, because his buddy observed it too, for the Swedish version of slimserver, or the SB running on Swedish mains, whatever. It the very least it must be independently observable outside his subjective perception. That means other people must observe it in a controlled setting (= not warmed up by Omega as in here, this thing sounds much better the second time than the first, don'tcha agree?), or measurement should indicate a difference. The particular program advocated for measurement is junk IMO - the Audio Critic guy seems to be just as bad as the hard nut subjectivists, just in the other way IMO - but I can only say that *after* I have tried the program and found the results non-reproducible, compared to the advertised operation. The only people who have been able to reproduce this 'design miss' are Omega and his buddies AFAICS - and there is enough unusual behaviour associated with one of those buddies that there is a strong suspicion they are one and the same person. Omega may have a point - perhaps there is something screwy about how his SB works on his server. But he hasn't gone about trying to get independent confirmation of his results, simply raised the stridency of his claims. Dragging in logically unrelated red herrings like how people failed to realise jitter was an issue in the early days of CD etc doesn't actually strengthen his case. How are Slim Devices meant to fix his problem if a) it hasn't been confirmed to be a problem outside his signal path, and b) neither test equipment nor other *independent* listeners can reproduce his results? He has not in any way *proven* that this is a problem for other SB users. And he hasn't gone about getting independent confirmation that it is a problem with his (or even th Swedish) SB in a particularly organized way that could be used to chase it down. The fault he claims to have clearly is not one that affects other SB users outside his circle of friends in a significant way. -- ermine ermine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
ermine, Now you made me feel ashame to be Swedish. ;) -- johann johann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10177 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
johann;219110 Wrote: ermine, Now you made me feel ashame to be Swedish. ;) What, is Sven-Goran Eriksson not enough? ;-) -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Patrick Dixon;219112 Wrote: What, is Sven-Goran Eriksson not enough? ;-) Think about this for a while: Which country was he coaching that was not forced to chose him. ;) -- johann johann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10177 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
johann;219110 Wrote: ermine, Now you made me feel ashame to be Swedish. ;) I don't know, you have beautiful girls and some decent mobile phones by S E- you guys don't have such a hard time. I didn't like the prices in your bars though :) Seriously, though, there is a precedent for the slimserver possibly having a problem with a Swedish configuration. We already know that some aspects of slimserver have problems with accented characters eg this thread. This is why Agnetha Faltskog needed editing from the EAC rip before the cue sheet would show up to let her appear. It's not totally crazy to wonder whether some key server variable is being missed by a similar parsing routine, which could mean an error peculiar to the Swedish version of Slimserver, which could be a reason why other observers cannot reproduce the 'fault' - because there's no fault to reproduce. Omega still needs to come up with independent corroboration of his observations though. F'rinstance if he can record losslessly the SPDIF out of his SB then audiodiffmaker should work 100% to confirm or repudiate whether the recovered bitstream is the same. He could sniff the network traffic with wireshark, though I would guess hooking the data off by following the stream would be harder. Some hard evidence would be good. Getting more mates or even the whole company he works for to come round and agree with his claim is less useful... -- ermine ermine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
ermine;219122 Wrote: I don't know, you have beautiful girls and some decent mobile phones by S E- you guys don't have such a hard time. Not really, except fot this: ermine;219122 Wrote: I didn't like the prices in your bars though :) ermine;219122 Wrote: Seriously, though, there is a precedent for the slimserver possibly having a problem with a Swedish configuration. We already know that some aspects of slimserver have problems with accented characters eg this thread. This is why Agnetha Faltskog needed editing from the EAC rip before the cue sheet would show up to let her appear. It's not totally crazy to wonder whether some key server variable is being missed by a similar parsing routine, which could mean an error peculiar to the Swedish version of Slimserver, which could be a reason why other observers cannot reproduce the 'fault' - because there's no fault to reproduce. Possible but I seriously doubt that. Personally, I run english versions of virtually all software including SlimServer and OS so I can't test for this. I find it weird that some SW still can't be 8-bit clean for characters, it used to be a problem back in the 80s and early 90s when you needed to use separate libs to use 8-bit char sets. That really should be a problems of the past. That said, it would of course be possible that some mismatch between characters could cause a pointer errror some where causing really weird errors but those kind of programming errors and/or bugs in libs, etc. almost never causes and reproducable misbehauvious, instead they cause the software to crash at random times and places in the SW. -- johann johann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10177 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
johann;219118 Wrote: Think about this for a while: Which country was he coaching that was not forced to chose him. ;) Yes you're quite right. It makes me ashamed to be English that we have an FA that would choose S-G E as the coach of our national team ;-) Still it could have been worse, they could have chosen Steve McLaren ... oh hang on ... -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Patrick Dixon;219162 Wrote: Yes you're quite right. It makes me ashamed to be English that we have an FA that would choose S-G E as the coach of our national team ;-) Still it could have been worse, they could have chosen Steve McLaren ... oh hang on ... And look at the consequenses... With such a last name he'd be better of in racing. :) -- johann johann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10177 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
In the late 80´s One Hifi magazine here in sweden did a listening test on Digtal transports (CD players) to a External DAC. The CD players sounded much difference from each other, They fought this difference was because of the transports reading capabilities, more stable CD mechanism etc. Then they measured the Digital stream from the Cdplayers to see witch CDplayer was the best reader But during the measure all CD players had identical bitstream, all was Equal good ! This made the testers really confused, Why did they sound different ? They couldnt explain why there was a difference. Jitter... Note, i am not claming the SB3 to have high jitter or anything regaring this litte story. I think there is a more to learn in the future regarding digital audio. we maybe not have discovered all the things affecting the Sound. When the CD was new in the 80´s it was perfect sound forever -Mark Lanctot This thing about streaming flac as Wave. I don´t think Wave sounds better than Flac, They are bit identical. But i think streaming flac as Wave sounds better than streaming FLAC as FLAC. My only guess regaring this is: 1.The Slimservers Flac Codec is better Unpaking the Flacfiles? 2.The CPU in the SB3 gets more stressed Unpaking flac vs Wave, and more increased load causing extra EMI Jitter? And the Wireless vs Wire. I think this has something with RF affect the digital signal on the SB3? -schatzy I have 2 old fashion isolation transformers for my Stereo. One isolation transformer for the Amp and one isolation transformer for the other (DAC, SB3, ETC) -truckfighters I have tried the replugging mains 180° to the SB3, but i can´t hear any difference. But i think the replugging mains 180° only works with analog equipment, All my equipment have the right phase according to my taste. I have had my new Ultramatch Pro SRC2496 connected a few days, And is´s a keeper !! :-) Now the sound is even better ! Wow ! :-) The SRC2496 is connected like this: SB3 Optical out Sp/dif 16/44 - SRC2496 use internal clock not SP/dif AES/EBU 44/16 - DAC (Musical fidelity X-Dac v3) I have tried difference settings on the SRC2496 like upsampling, 20-Bit, 24-Bit, use SP/dif clock etc. But I think leaving the signal untouched 16/44 and Only reclock (use internal clock) and send AES/EBU instead of Sp/dif. sounds best. And the Pause, power on/Off, Pause still works... Best regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
You are of course right, if Mats perceives a difference, he does infact perceive a difference. But the title of the thread is Design miss in SB3 digital output?, so there is a claim that others should also be able to hear the difference, and that it might even be a result of some technical error. To make this claim you will have to be able to prove that there is infact a physical difference in frequency and amplitude of soundwaves travelling from the speakers, which could be easily done with a blind-test. /Brjánn -- brjann brjann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12214 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Let me start by saying that I am new to the forums here. I have found lots of very helpful people post to these forums in all categories, and have made my purchase of two SB3 much more pleasant and easy to deal with. And thanks to all of you. There is one thing that disturbs me though, and that is the negative attitude of some of the posts in this thread. (And I have read all of them). I will not name names but i think most of you will recognize who you are. Now let me put in my 10 cents here. (ok maybe 25 cents with the length of this post) Merriam-Webster Dictionary au·dio·phile Function: noun: a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction high fidelity Function: noun the reproduction of an effect (as sound or an image) that is very faithful to the original With the above stated I do not know of any test that can be administered to any one or multiple individuals that will prove if they are an audiophile or not an audiophile. All of the individuals that have contributed to this thread are correct. At least in their own mind an that is the only thing that counts. Being and audiophile can only be self proclaimed. Two of my neighbors are self proclaimed audiophiles as I am myself. One of my neighbors has over $300,000.00 (three hundred thousand dollars) worth of equipment in his home. The other has about $1000.00. I personally have about $4500.00 worth of equipment. Can I hear the difference between the three systems? I will answer that with a resounding YES. Can both my neighbors hear the difference? Again a resounding YES. The only requirement with being a self proclaimed audiophile is that you LOVE music. All the tests in the world that use electronics equipment to judge the True Sound of a audio system are there for the unknowing individual. I mean that an amplifier can boast about its low THD or its Power Output, or a test can show there is no difference in the digital signals, but the reality of the matter is that every one of us that listen to it will hear it differently. I have worked for some of the best known audio equipment manufacturers. I have been in some of the best recording studios in the United States. All of them great experiences. The real test of an audio system is for it to sound as close to the original source material as it can. If that means the recording was done on The Esplinade in Boston, MA, USA, then I had better hear some of the crowd and street noise in the recording. If it was done in the studio then it had better sound just as it did when I was actually there listening to it being recorded. I know of know system that is perfect in reproducing that sound exactly. But I can say this. I have listened to a recording from a time when I was present for the recording on my system and both my neighbors systems. None of them sound truly like standing there in the studio. You may ask which one sounds best? It may be obvious that it sounds closer to the original on the very expensive system. But what really matters is that we all enjoyed the music, the conversation about that time in my life and had a great time listening to music. My neighbors and my self can afford what we have. Yes, two of us are a little envious of the one with the very expensive equipment, but if I had that kind of money I probably would spend it on other things any way. We should all rethink sometimes before we speak or type. If Omega thinks there is a difference between the first track played and the second played and that it makes a difference turning if off and then back on that is his opinion and no one should or has the right to tell him he is wrong. That is how his ears hear it. Maybe mine do not but that does not make omega wrong. One more comment before I go. With the advent of the iPod and other portable music players we have a generation of new music lovers that may never know what it is like to listen to music on a system with Audiophile Quality. And I know most of them will never know what it is like to stand in the studio with the likes of Buddy Guy, Mariah Carey , Sting, Muddy Waters, or many others. But my feeling is if they enjoy what they are listening to great for them. We should all be glad that music is a part of our lives because there are parts of this world we live in where humans do not get to listen to music only the cries of the poor and starving. Best wishes to all and ENJOY THE MUSIC Schatzy -- schatzy schatzy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
schatzy - that's a very good post and yes, it all comes down to personal preferences. But what should be filtered out is the placebo effect. I'm starting to notice that no one on this forum will admit to being affected by the placebo effect. This can't be possible, that's how our brains fundamentally work - expectations can skew results and reinforce themselves. If you believe something is better, your brain will subconsciously change your perception of it until you actually perceive it is better. And it can be passed on to others too - once omega suggested this to his friends they were looking for a difference and they found it (if you're looking for a difference you'll always find one even if there isn't a difference). Subsequent listening tests reinforced this belief. (This is how Q-Ray bracelets are sold.) omega has also admitted that he finds WAV sounds better than FLAC and that wired sounds better than wireless. Both of these assertions have very weak physical explanations but very strong psychological explanations based on expactation (we expect WAV must be better than FLAC because FLAC is 'compressed' and wired must be better than wireless because it's solid, it's physical, we can touch it and has better bandwidth.) This is not to say that omega is crazy or that he isn't hearing this, he is, but his expectations might be overriding reality. This isn't necessarily negative, we're all individuals and some inherently and subconsciously place more emphasis on expectation. Expectation is so real and some of us can be so dramatically affected by it that seemingly non-sensical devices to improve sound (stones, exotic woods, raising cables off the floor, special lacquers, even foil strips or dots) can really alter the -perceived- sound for certain individuals, and the only physical explanation for it is that it alters their expectations. If it does alter the perceived sound, then it's money well-spent for those people. Who are we to judge? However, if those individuals insisted that others would hear the same effects they would have to prove it in a way that would ensure their expectations aren't skewing the results. The SB designer himself cannot see a physical explanation for what omega is hearing. omega is surely hearing it, and in fact his brain is reinforcing this each time he hears it - the SB will probably never sound quite right to him now. In order to fix it though, Sean Adams must find what is wrong, and he can't find an electronic explanation for it. So it won't/can't be fixed because nothing has been discovered to be inherently wrong with every Squeezebox out there. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof and the burden of proof is on omega. Sean and many people here have an immense interest in making the SB sound as good as it can and if a physical defect were to be be found they would be right on it. But a physical defect hasn't been found yet. I'm pleased and slightly surprised that omega is taking this very well and still being civil, but it's also apparent that omega can't admit that maybe it could be placebo. His problem would be fixed if he could prove that it was not. It's great that he's still interested in proving this, because this is the only way to get others to fix it - to show that his expectations are not influencing his reality and that the problem can be readily and repeatedly perceived by anyone. -- Mark Lanctot 'Sean Adams' Response-O-Matic checklist, patent pending!' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=200910postcount=2) Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
schatzy;218599 Wrote: We should all rethink sometimes before we speak or type. If Omega thinks there is a difference between the first track played and the second played and that it makes a difference turning if off and then back on that is his opinion and no one should or has the right to tell him he is wrong. That is how his ears hear it. Maybe mine do not but that does not make omega wrong. Did you read his original post? omega Wrote: I have found a big problem with SB3 / slimerver Audio! snip We both have very good Hi End Gear / revealing speakers etc. external DAC It´s easier to hear on my system because i have a A universally applicable omnidirectional tweeter He's not saying I hear this, isn't that nice, let's all be happy. He's saying I hear this because I have a good system and it means there is a major flaw in the SB or SS. If you're going to make a claim like that, you'd better be prepared for considerable skepticism and questioning. And no, it's simply not true that no one has the right to tell him he's right or wrong. Of course they do... and in fact he's the one telling everyone else there's a problem, and that if they don't hear it it's probably because their system isn't good enough. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
hi there, just found this thread, read almost the 10 first pages and came to the 2 last - the issue still not solved. a whole wile ago I was posting a similar issue I had with the SB3. that was exactly the same thing omega is hearing. the sound is changing and is not high-end anymore. it sounds like digitally distorted. I don't know when and whay it happened, but it really did. Also this came up when friends were here visiting my place and my seriously listened to music. since I can remember how things should sound, I quite fast heard the change. so what I always did to bring everything back to normal was simply to unplug the power source of the SB3 and replug it. then the sound was restored to high-end. I postet this in the end of 2006 and also sean adams replied to it. but we found no solution. I have a transporter now and no issue here. I could believe it has something to that we phase, neutral and ground here in germany (may be in sweden also)? we can plug our devices like we want into the wall sockets. and I also claim that there are sonical diffences by replugging mains 180° of transporter and my amp. but this is not an unknown fact here in germany. a lot of people are aware of the issue and there are even devices out there to detect the correct phase of the mains plug. cheers -- truckfighters | Transporter | REDGUM RGASil OCC Silver Interconnects | REDGUM RGi120ENR AMP | REDGUM LS Cable | BW Nautilus 802 D | Live musicians at the end of my room! truckfighters's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7852 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
truckfighters;218686 Wrote: hi there, ... a whole wile ago I was posting a similar issue I had with the SB3. that was exactly the same thing omega is hearing. the sound is changing and is not high-end anymore. it sounds like digitally distorted. I don't know when and whay it happened, but it really did. Also this came up when friends were here visiting my place and my seriously listened to music. since I can remember how things should sound, I quite fast heard the change. so what I always did to bring everything back to normal was simply to unplug the power source of the SB3 and replug it. then the sound was restored to high-end. ... This happened to me a few times atleast. I had to reboot the SB3 to take care of a really 'muddy' sound. Also, I upgraded to a dual-core CPU on the PC running Slimserver and reripped most of my collection. Now the sound seems better. (Actually, I did not expect any change at all. I was just bored/upset that I had to rerip because of a crash) Not sure, because of the reripping with different EAC settings or because of a better wi-fi connection with the new faster CPU. -- SoftwireEngineer SoftwireEngineer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7000 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hi truckfighters Quote: I could believe it has something to that we phase, neutral and ground here in germany (may be in sweden also)? we can plug our devices like we want into the wall sockets. and I also claim that there are sonical diffences by replugging mains 180° of transporter and my amp. but this is not an unknown fact here in germany. a lot of people are aware of the issue and there are even devices out there to detect the correct phase of the mains plug. Yes it´s same here in Sweden regarding this, I Know about this and all my Gear is in right Phase. Strange that this thing works! First when i heard about it a didnt believe it, But then i tried and... I don´t know about US but UK can´t do the 180° I will try to replugging power to my SB3 and see. Thanks for the Tips ! Best Regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hello again, I am not one to normal name names but in this case Opaqueice, it is attitudes like yours that prompted me to write in the first place. Omega could have 100 or even 1000 or more people listen to his system and have the same experience that he has had. Then I or anyone else on this forum could find another 100 or 1000 or more people that do not hear it when listening to Omegas system. You can not and do not have the right to tell these people that do not hear it that they are wrong. They just do not have the ear that can hear it. If we gave them all hearing tests we may find out why they do not hear it but in that case no one can tell them they are wrong because they just do not hear it. quoteHe's not saying I hear this, isn't that nice, let's all be happy. /quote Also Opaqueice, no where in my last post did i say that Omega should just be happy. I in fact think that he should be posting here to say I hear a problem. I believe that Omega does hear a difference. I have not noticed and have connected my computer and SB3 to a friends system. This system consists of mostly Mark Levinson equipment. Now you will probably say that Mark Levinson equipment is trash, but there are a lot of people out there that would argue with you. I will not because you have your opinion and i have mine. Neither of us is wrong as far as i am concerned. What should be happening here is trying to figure out a way to solve the problem and not all the bickering from people like you saying he is wrong. No one is wrong here. Some people may hear it and others may not. That does not mean they are wrong. Omega, Have you tried a plain old fashion isolation transformer, not any of the so called power conditioners to try and eliminate any mains interference. Also mentioned here is a mystery surrounding the phase of the mains and why it seems to sound better if all of the equipment is connected in the same phase. Yes here in the US we can not normally change the phase of the mains for each piece of equipment as one side of the power is always connected to ground. In Europe ground is separate from both the voltage lines. Question to sean adams, has all the audio (hi-fi) equipment in your testing lab been connected to 220-240 volts with a truly independent ground (i.e. maybe no ground at all connected), is there a difference of the kind that Omega is stating he hears. Can you reverse the plug on the SB3 (changing the phase) and then is there a difference. How about if the amplifier mains phase is reversed. I do not remember reading if this has been tried. If it has great if it has not can it be tried so that just one more possible cause can be eliminated. I ask the above question because when i worked for Cello Ltd. (search the web if you have not heard of them) we had problems with some transformers not preforming well on mains power that was not grounded (neutral) on one side. This ended up being a problem with one small lot of transformer and the way they were wound. Unfortunately Cello Ltd no longer exists but many of us that worked there very much enjoyed the experience and the quality of the sound reproduction that it produced. I surely hope that through good and non combative discussion that this problem can be solved. Even if it take 124 pages of posts to this thread. Lastly i apologize in advance if i have offended anyone. Scahtzy -- schatzy schatzy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
schatzy;218746 Wrote: Hello again, I am not one to normal name names but in this case Opaqueice, it is attitudes like yours that prompted me to write in the first place. Omega could have 100 or even 1000 or more people listen to his system and have the same experience that he has had. Then I or anyone else on this forum could find another 100 or 1000 or more people that do not hear it when listening to Omegas system. You can not and do not have the right to tell these people that do not hear it that they are wrong. They just do not have the ear that can hear it. If we gave them all hearing tests we may find out why they do not hear it but in that case no one can tell them they are wrong because they just do not hear it. For someone that claims to have read this thread you don't seem to have followed it very well. I didn't say anywhere that omega is wrong, whatever that means. I certainly never questioned whether or not he was hearing something - on the contrary, I defended him against some posts suggesting he was trolling. I simply suggested a simple and effective test which would help isolate where the effect is coming from. The issue here, which seems to have escaped you entirely, was whether (as omega claimed) there is a problem with the SB or with SS or whether it's placebo. It's not very difficult to answer that, and until it's answered it's a waste of time speculating about what might be wrong with the SB. Most of this thread has been spent trying (and failing) to get omega or one of his friends to do a proper test to determine that. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
brjann;217713 Wrote: To test if Mats experience is a result of selective processing or not, no fancy testing equipment is required. As has been pointed out, he simply has to prove in a blind test that he can more often than chance will accurately say what method of pausing was used. Good post. However, I think that identifying the source/method is an unnecessary and overcomplicated step. You simply need to repeatedly be able to detect a difference when there is one, and no difference when there isn't. Identifying which is which is not required to prove that the two cases are different, and trying to do it introduces a whole new set of perceptive errors into the experiment. Once you have established a difference, you can then set about trying to identify what that difference is, and whether one case is an improvement on the other. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Yes, I guess that telling if this method differs from the previous one or not is better. We're really getting into depth of signal detection here, I guess you should even have a calibration run... -- brjann brjann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12214 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Patrick Dixon;218286 Wrote: Good post. However, I think that identifying the source/method is an unnecessary and overcomplicated step. You simply need to repeatedly be able to detect a difference when there is one, and no difference when there isn't. Identifying which is which is not required to prove that the two cases are different, and trying to do it introduces a whole new set of perceptive errors into the experiment. Once you have established a difference, you can then set about trying to identify what that difference is, and whether one case is an improvement on the other. Well, I guess what this means in practice is that if OP did a proper blind test and wrongly identified the source 80-90% of the time, that would demonstrate an audible difference: though it would beg an interesting additional question as to why he preferred option A while sighted and option B while blind... Ceejay -- ceejay ceejay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hi ! I have just bought a Behringer SRC 2496 http://www.behringer.com/SRC2496/index.cfm?lang=eng I plan to connect this like this: SB3 Optical out Sp/dif 16/44 - SRC2496 use internal clock not SP/dif AES/EBU 44/16 - DAC (Musical fidelity X-Dac v3) I post my listening tests later. -Bosco Quote: Do you have a receiver that can decode Dolby Digital (AC3) or DTS? No i don´t have a DTS receiver. -Brjann You have a good point there, A real super blindtest is fair regarding this. I will talk to Hammer and see when we can do this. Even if i allready have done a quick blindtest before... Anyway both me and hammer are soon leaving sweden for a couple of weeks during vacation. So all this measuring and testing is put on hold for a while. We both have been quite bissy lately so there haven´t been any test and measures lately. Regards /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
The idea was that if Omega could hear the same differences with these AC3/DTS tracks then we would have proven that the differences came from the power of suggestion. -- bosco bosco's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12538 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hi all! First of all I think this a wonderfully interesting thread, and hope I will not be deleted. Reading it I've thought about a few things that I'd like to comment, excuse the length, but here are my 10 cents... Here is an interesting link: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70179 I think this gives us a pretty good idea about flame wars start. In 80% of the cases, we think that the readers will correctly interpret the tone in our text-based messages, in 50% of the cases they actually, in 90% of the cases believing to be correct. I personally think that both Sean and Mats have been pretty civil throughout the thread, and completely disagree with those claiming that the SD-staff have in any way been exceptionally rude. But, I could of course be misjudging their intended tone... Moving on to the placebo effect. I does seem that Mats hasn't quite understood what that is. The placebo effect in this case is not in any way an effect of fooling yourself that you hear something that you actually don't. It's simply a phenomenon of how the brain processes incoming information, what information is picked up, and what information is discarded (actually dimensional, not dichotomous). This way of functioning is totally necessery for the brain to be able to distinguish between relevant and non-relevant stimuli. For instance, if you are having a conversation with a friend, while others are talking beside you, you and your friend will actually not hear what the others are talking about, that is give their verbal sounds verbal meaning. In this case you would say that the sounds of your friends voice is clearer than the sounds of the others speaking. This is a placebo effect, but no one would say that you are making it up, because you actually can't retell what the others are saying. Another thing with the brain is that is constantly seeking information about that indicates that something important is happening. That's basic survival instinct, things that are important should be attended to so that they can be dealt with properly. As things become more important they are also more hightlighted so that attention is more readily focused on them and decisions about what to do can be made quicker. This means that stimuli (like sounds) that _could_ be of the important type, are detected and highlighted so that we can act. If you're expecting a phone call from a girl you would like to date (important!) and listening to music on a high volume, you will constantly be hearing the phone ringing, because sounds in the music that resemble the signal of your phone will be interpreted as such. It's impossible for us to consciously separate real from fake ringing tones, the meaning of the sounds that the brain adds is the only source of information we have! The thing about humans is that we're able to add importance to almost any stimuli. If it is important that my new stereo sounds well, any information that can be indicative if this or the opposite will be highlighted and perceived as more audible. So, expecting the sound to be different when you use two different methods of pausing the SB will infact produce different perceptions, your brain will highlight different properties of the sound. To test if Mats experience is a result of selective processing or not, no fancy testing equipment is required. As has been pointed out, he simply has to prove in a blind test that he can more often than chance will accurately say what method of pausing was used. The blind test that Mats performed wasn't that good for a number of reasons (e.g. too small n, dependence between trials), but it's simple to produce one that is. I suggest the following protocol: * Mats is blindfolded, and preferrebly listens to the music with headphones. * A neutral person roles a die, if the result is odd (1,3,5), method 1 us used to pause, otherwise (2,4,6), method 2 is used. * It is important that Mats won't be able to draw conclusions from the time of the pause, therefore the neutral person should press the play button at a fixed number of second since pausing the music. * 30 trials are made, and for each trial the number on the die is noted, the method used, and whether Mats correctly identifies the method. Then post these data on the forum, and a simple chi-2 test will reveal to what degree we can be certain if the sound differs or not. Note that being right in only 70% of 30 cases indicates a 97% chance that Mats is correct, so 100% identification is not necessary. I don't think it's unfair to expect Mats to perform this blind trial after all this fuzz, since it is easy and would demand considerably less effort than contacting people with fancy testing equipment. /Brjánn -- brjann brjann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12214 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
bosco;217515 Wrote: I haven't read the whole thread, but there is a really easy way to test the digital outputs. Do you have a receiver that can decode Dolby Digital (AC3) or DTS? Go here: http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/mall/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2446Artikel=740607 and download/unzip a DTS or AC3 file. Play it on your Squeezebox (volume must be 100). The files are compressed, and if your receiver does not get a *perfect* signal you will hear nothing at all or just static. Works fine here btw. Good luck. Why should a devices which is capable of pass-through dts and/or ac3 be -perfect-? Does it say something about the amount of jitter from that signal? -- Ejorne Ejorne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
I haven't read the whole thread, but there is a really easy way to test the digital outputs. Do you have a receiver that can decode Dolby Digital (AC3) or DTS? Go here: http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/mall/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2446Artikel=740607 and download/unzip a DTS or AC3 file. Play it on your Squeezebox (volume must be 100). The files are compressed, and if your receiver does not get a *perfect* signal you will hear nothing at all or just static. Works fine here btw. Good luck. -- bosco bosco's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12538 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
-opaqueice Hi! I have installed Audacity audiodiffmaker today and started some testing. My Laptop only have a Mono-Mic in, so a tested on my Slimserver PC I wanted to learn Test Audacity and audiodiffmaker before i began testing on the SB3 DAC. I connected my NAD CD player to the line in on the Soundcard. Started testing with a Music Audio CD. But i always get a audible difference wave (A-B) how matter i do. I have tripple checked all settings Line in levels etc, and i start recording as careful i can be. (Same start point pressing rec in the programs and Play on the CD player. But i end up with the same diff file how matter i do. I tried to record both from audiodiffmaker and Audacity but the same result. The diff file is almost quiet but i can hear the track/song very very very weak. (I can follow recognize the song easy) And i pickup much interference from the PC, Fan noise etc. I tried the SB3 analog output for a test run but there is the same strange diff file there to. I think i need som better soundcard that is 100% quiet and have a S/PDIF in for this test? But why this diff file ? i shall be quiet? i don´t change anything during the A and B recordings. And this test must be quiet during tuning, otherwise it´s useless to go on with this. Do you have some tips regarding this? Best Regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215919 Wrote: -opaqueice Hi! I have installed Audacity audiodiffmaker today and started some testing. My Laptop only have a Mono-Mic in, so a tested on my Slimserver PC I wanted to learn Test Audacity and audiodiffmaker before i began testing on the SB3 DAC. I connected my NAD CD player to the line in on the Soundcard. Started testing with a Music Audio CD. But i always get a audible difference wave (A-B) how matter i do. I have tripple checked all settings Line in levels etc, and i start recording as careful i can be. (Same start point pressing rec in the programs and Play on the CD player. But i end up with the same diff file how matter i do. I tried to record both from audiodiffmaker and Audacity but the same result. The diff file is almost quiet but i can hear the track/song very very very weak. (I can follow recognize the song easy) And i pickup much interference from the PC, Fan noise etc. I tried the SB3 analog output for a test run but there is the same strange diff file there to. I think i need som better soundcard that is 100% quiet and have a S/PDIF in for this test? But why this diff file ? i shall be quiet? i don´t change anything during the A and B recordings. And this test must be quiet during tuning, otherwise it´s useless to go on with this. Do you have some tips regarding this? Best Regards! /Mats :-) Omega (Mats), I would not start with music. Instead, I suggest using a standard 1 kHz wav file (either from the CD player or Squeezebox). Using this fixed frequency, you may be able to hear some pattern (harmonics, etc) in the diff file. With music, I'm afraid the signal is too complicated to hear a real difference. -- ezkcdude There are 10 kind of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. SHINYMETAL '*Site*' (http://www.ezdiyaudio.com)| '*RSS*' (http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/rss/ezdiyaudio.xml) |'*Forum*' (http://ezdiyaudio.informe.com) ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
ezkcdude;215922 Wrote: Omega (Mats), I would not start with music. Instead, I suggest using a standard 1 kHz wav file (either from the CD player or Squeezebox). Using this fixed frequency, you may be able to hear some pattern (harmonics, etc) in the diff file. With music, I'm afraid the signal is too complicated to hear a real difference. Why not use music? If I understood his post, he IS hearing a difference even when both files are recordings of the same track from his CD player. So there's something wrong with either audiodiffmaker, the recording process, or his CD player. That has to get sorted out first. The selection I used in my recordings was music - it was a piano and cello concerto - and the difference file was just very low level white noise. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215919 Wrote: But i always get a audible difference wave (A-B) how matter i do. Hmmm... I tried this with three different recording techniques - into my laptop's line-in, into my windows desktop's line-in, and using a Tascam USB microphone interface I have. None of those recordings exhibited the problem you're having - in all cases there was some noise in the difference file, but it was quiet, had a pretty white spectrum, and just sounded like static (except for the Tascam which was introducing some high-frequency crap for some reason). You might try the laptop - even if it's mono you can just record one channel. Not ideal, but might be quieter (for me the laptop made the least noisy recording). You do have the option in audiodiffmaker checked that time-aligns the recordings before taking the difference, right? Also just as a test, try taking the difference of two identical files (like two copies of the same recording) and make sure you get silence. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
-opaqueice Hi Again! Quote: You might try the laptop - even if it's mono you can just record one channel. Not good i have only mic in the signal gets distroted how matter i set signal level. Quote: Also just as a test, try taking the difference of two identical files (like two copies of the same recording) and make sure you get silence. Works ok :-) silence ! so audiodiffmaker is working ok! Quote: You do have the option in audiodiffmaker checked that time-aligns the recordings before taking the difference, right? I run with Default time-aligns settings. Difference Extraction Time Aligment Delay Capacity = 15 % Delay resolution = 20n [SEC] GAIN all settings Default.. Is there some other settings? I Think there's something wrong with the recording process, I end up with the same using SB3 Or CD player. Both can´t be broken. Best Regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
wow...reading through this thread makes me glad I'm not an audiophile ! -- clickhand clickhand's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12431 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
-seanadams Thanks for the tip Web Link. I will talk to Hammer he also have a laptop and Desktop We can try his computers and see how things sounds. Best Regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215934 Wrote: I Think there's something wrong with the recording process, I end up with the same using SB3 Or CD player. Unfortunately if the laptop _only_ accepts MIC in, and there is no option to change it to line in, then you are going to get extremely bad distortion from overdriving the input. This is a decent product that you can use to get line in to a laptop: http://www.xitel.com/USA/prod_inportdl.htm -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
To Omega co First I most tell all, I do not have a SB3 so I not able to hear how it sounds and I not able to verify your clam. But as I see/read it, you and your friend have both a heavy modified SB3. This it self could be a problem as you not able to conclude that is the SB3 that has the fault. You also report that you think that without a isolation transforms, filters and so on you would have difficulty hearing the difference. Please do this test as a blind test for another person the you self/friend, this should be easy. And report back you discovery. Audiophile mode on In your setup, how can you be sure that there isn't a part of the system that falls, it could be that it just can't stand to have the same piece of music played twice with out a power off. It could be that the DAC have going in saturation/fault mode or soo In the pause situation not power off. The electrons could be jammed in the cables you could try to change them all. To all please don't take this selection very seriously :-) I not a believer Maybe Sean can answer this; during a power off situation are any part/circuits of the SB3 actual power off. I thinking in the non audio part, display control, wireless interface, main cpu and so. and in what state, are these circuits in a pause situation? It could be that something could add noise or change the phase in the music signal after a pause in the audio signal. audiophile mode off All test should be blind tests: What happens is the first track played last a fraction of a second how it the next track then perceive? Try during the first good track to power off and on various parts of your soundsystem, DAC, preamp, poweramp. what is the perceive sound like Do you have the possibility to use another source to your extremal DAC like a cd player? Then try the same test. What happens if you use a pure tone instead of music? try both a high and low frequency tone My biggest concern is that you stop/have a break in the music. To my knowledge this alone can be enough for some to report that the heired two sounds (this is in a pure tone test). I can only suggestion you make a recording of the two situations and publish the result to this forum. My last comment please accept, that some people can't hear what you hear. if your not sadified with the SB3 buy another product rebuild it like others have. Maybe this product is just not high-end enough for your ears. regards Daniel -- danielu danielu's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12424 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
-JimC Quote: You've _modified_ a Squeezebox such that you claim to hear a difference, and then call it a design miss but go on to state that an unmodified SB3 would probably not exhibit the problem. The only Modifications that i have to my Squeezebox is: 1. A Custom Linear powersupply. (Hammer is still running on the original) 2. A Digital isolation transformer on the Coaxial Digital output on the SB3. (Both me and Hammer have this Modification) When i discovered the problem or effect my SB3 was i original state.. Only the Custom Linear powersupply. I still hear the same effect through the unmodified Optical output on the SB3... I only tried the digital isolation transformer Modification to se if that fixed the problem... I was satisfied with the optical output in the firstplace. When i talked about remove the isolation transformers power cleaners i ment the AC current 220V/50 HZ feeding my whole Stereo. Not removing the Digital isolation transformer inside the SB3. I still hear the same effect through the unmodified Optical output on the SB3... And is a External DAC a Modification ? Yes i think i propably not going to hear any differance or have much more difficult to distinguish between good and Bad sound. Running through the analog outputs on the SB3 and removing the isolation transformers power cleaners (AC current 220V/50 HZ) And if i remove my Elac CL 4Pi Plus (A universally applicable omnidirectional tweeter) Then my problems will ge gone. I just tried to get a point in the previous post. Not all people is running with an External DAC etc and probably and not hearing this effect. Or as you wrote in the previous post: My system isn't very high-end at all, so it could possibly have been masked in the digital out--analog conversion--speakers--room effects chain but I doubt that. Quote: Good grief. All the people are convinced that this is not a placebo thing and that makes it NOT a placebo thing? If you haven't tested using blind or double-blind methods, thereby isolating knowledge of the test condition from the test, the results simply cannot exclude the placebo effect. My girfriend did a blindtest on me, i know this doesn´t prof a thing... It have to be blind/double-blind But you asked me to consider the possibility that the effect we are hearing is perceptual? I still believe Sigmund Freud has nothing to do with this... Quote: You can't measure any difference so far but still insist there is a difference. Hammer and i Will try more measure later... I know this arguing is not leading anywhere, it´s just makes all of us involved angry, I really don´t want to fight. You guys at logitech have your belief, Me and Hammer Co have ours. Anyone reading this thread and having the know-how and proper tools, and the time, please help us. Best Regards! /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215605 Wrote: Anyone reading this thread and having the know-how and proper tools, and the time, please help us. For the tenth time, it's really really easy! I'm almost positive your soundcard has a line-in, and if it doesn't, borrow any laptop from some time in the last decade and use that. Then all you need is a cable that takes 2 RCA plugs into a coaxial, like this: http://www.connexions-oem.com/mini-rca.gif Then use the cable to plug your DAC into the line-in of the computer, record a song (for example using Audacity, which is free and downloadable), restart the SB, make a new recording, and use audiodiffmaker to compare. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
opaqueice;215614 Wrote: For the tenth time, it's really really easy! I'm almost positive your soundcard has a line-in, and if it doesn't, borrow any laptop from some time in the last decade and use that. Then all you need is a cable that takes 2 RCA plugs into a coaxial, like this: http://www.connexions-oem.com/mini-rca.gif Then use the cable to plug your DAC into the line-in of the computer, record a song (for example using Audacity, which is free and downloadable), restart the SB, make a new recording, and use audiodiffmaker to compare. I think tests like that will not result in showing a difference. But i dont think that should say that the difference is not there and therefor must be in the mind. Because the difference between that cd and cdr looks like so much simulair to this effect. And, as far as i know, there is also not a technical explanation in difference between cd and cdr. Technicians also say (and honnestly believe) that there IS no difference and all the diffrence should be in the persons head... But with cd an cdr i can prove the difference in blind testing, over and over again... But the technicians still believe it is in my head... But, escuse me for bringing this cd versus cdr back in this topic... It's (probably) not connected to this problem... but as i say again, those test will probably not result in differences, but... still it can be there. We must know more about audio in technical way aand/or in human-body way... -- Ejorne Ejorne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
This test takes two analogue audio signals and subtracts them. The resulting file is an upper bound on any difference - in other words any real difference between the two files will be smaller than the result. You can then listen to the differences without anything masking them. You can turn up the volume, look at the waveform, etc. It's an EXTREMELY sensitive test - much more so than human hearing in an A/B comparison. For example phase differences will show up very clearly in the difference file even when they were totally inaudible in the original sound. If a negative result on this test doesn't convince you, nothing will and there's no point in doing ANY test. It's also far easier to do than a proper blind test. It's off topic, but you claim to have done blind tests for CDs versus CDRs - can you describe the test setup and results in detail? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Dear Omega co I posted my dissatifaction with the way seanadams and JimC are responding you on this thread. I still stand behind that, paying customers (even annoying one) deserve better attitude. But I must tell mr. Omega and co., you are truely annoying. with the time you spent doing silly audio tests and the time you spent bloating this thread, if you are so sure there is a bugg you could have performed just one of the tests seanadams instructed you to do, and bring your proof here instead of wasting so many people's time with your wierd experiences with SB. Please, post something when you do a serious test, otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time, and make a used to be good Audiophile forum a big pile of junk with now over 21 pages. PS - To SlimDevices forum manager, can't you move this thread from Audiophiles forum to bugg forum? -- ganjastone ganjastone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3122 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
ganjastone;215665 Wrote: PS - To SlimDevices forum manager, can't you move this thread from Audiophiles forum to bugg forum? Bugs require reproducible cases. I think this thread lies exactly where it belongs. -- EFP EFP's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6651 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
EFP;215676 Wrote: Bugs require reproducible cases. I think this thread lies exactly where it belongs. Well said. ...and before anyone else chimes in, I'm with Mr. Opaqueice on this one. If audiodiffmaker shows no real difference then there is no real difference. Period. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
I've been following this thread. Some ideas. Omega, could you try using the web interface to start/pause/stop your SB3 instead of the remote? Purhaps there is an IR code anomaly with your other equipment. In the same vein, if you have any fluorescent lights in your listening room, turn them off. Thats all I got. -- konut konut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Phil Leigh;215686 Wrote: Well said. ...and before anyone else chimes in, I'm with Mr. Opaqueice on this one. If audiodiffmaker shows no real difference then there is no real difference. Period. I hate agreeing with Opaqueice. Ok then I won't :) Sorry but I have not seen anything that proves that audiodiffmaker (or any similar measurement-differencer system) is better than the human ear. Plus I do not accept that a system that is designed to find such differences has any relevance to listening to music. That notwithstanding, I do think that Omega needs to refine his point somewhat. I don't feel that it has been well explained, and it has been presented aggressively. Sorry to disagree with everyone. I guess that is a reasonable definition of trolling, but this is a thread for which the mere act of posting can only be considered an act of a troll. Ho hum. -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Living Voice Auditorium II plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
It's been 22 pages of a thread. Omega is not going to provide here any useful info, except for bad google marketing for SlimDevices and a bit of a rude reputation to some SlimDevices personel. If Omega had something solid in hand, he would already publish it. SlimDevices, or anyone else on the forum with the equipment needed to perform a test, can test it (with Omega flawed FLAC) and publish the results. I at least, would then have no doubt nothing is 'bugg'. Otherwise this will never end. -- ganjastone ganjastone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3122 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
adamslim;215696 Wrote: I hate agreeing with Opaqueice. Ok then I won't :) Sorry but I have not seen anything that proves that audiodiffmaker (or any similar measurement-differencer system) is better than the human ear. Geeez I'm going to tell you something that must be very unpleasant to a 'true' audiophile: Your ears are crap and with crap I mean really crap. I mean as crap as crap can be and if your ears aren't that crappy than it's the grey matter between them that's colouring every sound with it's expectations and experience from the past! And that makes your hearing even more crappy... So face it: your hearing is crap! adamslim;215696 Wrote: Plus I do not accept that a system that is designed to find such differences has any relevance to listening to music. It's extremely relevant in this case: If there is no difference, then there is NO difference! The problem with a lot of 'true' audiophiles is that they just need a justification for the large amounts of money they spend on their equipment and that justification is their supposed superb hearing while in reality probably 99.% of the 'true' audiophiles have as crappy hearing as everyone else... maybe even worse... Did I already mention your hearing is crappy? -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
servies;215708 Wrote: Geeez I'm going to tell you something that must be very unpleasant to a 'true' audiophile: Your ears are crap and with crap I mean really crap. I mean as crap as crap can be and if your ears aren't that crappy than it's the grey matter between them that's colouring every sound with it's expectations and experience from the past! And that makes your hearing even more crappy... So face it: your hearing is crap! It's extremely relevant in this case: If there is no difference, then there is NO difference! The problem with a lot of 'true' audiophiles is that they just need a justification for the large amounts of money they spend on their equipment and that justification is their supposed superb hearing while in reality probably 99.% of the 'true' audiophiles have as crappy hearing as everyone else... maybe even worse... Did I already mention your hearing is crappy? Yes yes and double yes. Ears+brain=completly unreliable (ie subjective) judge of anything. Comparing numbers=totally reliable. The only magical thing about our ears is that they can't reliably do anything. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
NOW, this thread is getting interesting :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
servies;215708 Wrote: Yada yada... :) Did I already mention your hearing is crappy? I agree, and am quite sure that you are right. However, my ears are what I listen to music with, so that is how I evaluate products related to listening to music. This seems reasonable to me. I often get to a point in an A/B listening session where everything sounds the same, at which time I grab a coffee and chill for a while. If there are differences I can normally hear them, often quickly but sometimes less so, and if, over a few sessions, I really can't tell the difference then I don't get fussed about it, buy the cheap or pretty one. Conversely, with difference testing there is all sorts of analysis you have to do to prove the audibility of differences, and all you do is prove the testing equipment rather than the music experience. If you find any difference, it gives you no indication of what is best, and if you don't find a difference, the equipment might not be as sensitive as your ears. Pointless. If you must be pedantic, it's the brain that sucks, not the ears. The ears are astonishingly good at picking up sound (although they are not linear). The brain is astonishingly good at doing whatever it thinks it probably should, so it doesn't need to think! And yes, this thread does deserve to be taken out of its zone... :) -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Living Voice Auditorium II plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Hi! -JIMC Quote: I tried it, too. The results aren't really relevant, since I didn't run the tests blind or double-blind. Let's just say I heard *exactly* what I expected I would hear. Did you hear the effect ? - JIMC SEANADAMS Quote: You will see that I did in fact suggest some very simple tests that Omega could have easily performed which would have helped to elucidate the problem. _He_ refused. We are not refusing.. Just haven´t got the time and equipment to do all easily performed testing.. Both me and Hammer works full+++ time.. And this testing/Measuring Is occurring on our free time, During the weekends ... If there is time... Last Sunday, we meet a friend of Hammer and did an analog measurement with an Oscilloscope on the digital output (SB3). Everything looked ok, nothing to explain the effect thing My and hammers soundcards dont have a Digital in.. Maybe planning baying one. Then we try programs like Audio DiffMaker etc. Hammer and I are not so good in the Digital Domain We need help from someone who has the know-how and the measuring tools for this. (Jitter etc) We hope to get some help from Hammers friend at the Royal Institute of Technology to track this thing. He is a researcher and has very limited time. Anyone reading this thread and having the know-how and proper tools, and the time, please help us. A good test track to hear the effect.. Cowboy Junkies The Trinity Session Track one Mining for Gold Listen to the back round Noise and Vocal focus Best Regards /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Omega, Can I ask, what external DAC do you have? What about your friends? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
-Robin Bowes My system: SB3 (Latest firmware and Slimserver) I am Only playing .Flac files done with EAC /Plextor Digital Out from SB3 - Musical Fidelity X-Dac v3 - Musical Fidelity X-10 V3 Tube Buffer - Cambridge AZUR 840A Amp. Speakers: Chario Hyper 2000 Tower Reference + Elac CL 4Pi Plus (A universally applicable omnidirectional tweeter) SB3 Linear power supply, Isolation transformers, Filters etc. Hammers system: QUAD ESL Speakers, Custom built Tube amplifier, Hammer has built his own DAC (I Think it´s a Crystal/Cirrus Logic's chip inside ?) Hammer is planning to set the Dac to synk on internal clock instead of SB3 clock. (Or something.. i really don´t know much about this) To see if we can isolate the problem. /Mats :-) -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega wrote: -Robin Bowes My system: SB3 (Latest firmware and Slimserver) I am Only playing .Flac files done with EAC /Plextor Digital Out from SB3 - Musical Fidelity X-Dac v3 - Musical Fidelity X-10 V3 Tube Buffer - Cambridge AZUR 840A Amp. Speakers: Chario Hyper 2000 Tower Reference + Elac CL 4Pi Plus (A universally applicable omnidirectional tweeter) SB3 Linear power supply, Isolation transformers, Filters etc. Hammers system: QUAD ESL Speakers, Custom built Tube amplifier, Hammer has built his own DAC (I Think it´s a Crystal/Cirrus Logic's chip inside ?) Hammer is planning to set the Dac to synk on internal clock instead of SB3 clock. (Or something.. i really don´t know much about this) To see if we can isolate the problem. OK - just wondering if the external DACs are somehow losing sync to the digital stream. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215390 Wrote: Hi! My and hammers soundcards dont have a Digital in.. Maybe planning baying one. Then we try programs like Audio DiffMaker etc. You don't need a digital in. While it would be good to verify that the digital stream out of the SB is the same in both cases, that's not what audiodiffmaker does. It compares two recordings of the *analogue* output of something, say your DAC. And I'm pretty sure that just about all soundcards have an input - otherwise you couldn't use a microphone, for example. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Robin Bowes;215411 Wrote: omega wrote: -Robin Bowes My system: SB3 (Latest firmware and Slimserver) I am Only playing .Flac files done with EAC /Plextor Digital Out from SB3 - Musical Fidelity X-Dac v3 - Musical Fidelity X-10 V3 Tube Buffer - Cambridge AZUR 840A Amp. Speakers: Chario Hyper 2000 Tower Reference + Elac CL 4Pi Plus (A universally applicable omnidirectional tweeter) SB3 Linear power supply, Isolation transformers, Filters etc. Hammers system: QUAD ESL Speakers, Custom built Tube amplifier, Hammer has built his own DAC (I Think it´s a Crystal/Cirrus Logic's chip inside ?) Hammer is planning to set the Dac to synk on internal clock instead of SB3 clock. (Or something.. i really don´t know much about this) To see if we can isolate the problem. OK - just wondering if the external DACs are somehow losing sync to the digital stream. R. There's a slim (oops!) possibility the DAC's might be the cause - I use the same model DAC and can't hear this effect. But I have other devices between SB and DAC... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
You're still arguing? This must be some sort of april joke run by the slimdevice community manager to amuse us? Please, tell me it's just not reality ;). Robin -- vrobin vrobin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11705 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215390 Wrote: Hi! -JIMC Quote: I tried it, too. The results aren't really relevant, since I didn't run the tests blind or double-blind. Let's just say I heard *exactly* what I expected I would hear. Did you hear the effect ? I didn't hear a difference, but I didn't expect to, either. The reason my results aren't relevant is that I didn't do it blind/double-blind, so I did not control for personal bias. My system isn't very high-end at all, so it could possibly have been masked in the digital out--analog conversion--speakers--room effects chain but I doubt that. Last Sunday, we meet a friend of Hammer and did an analog measurement with an Oscilloscope on the digital output (SB3). Everything looked ok, nothing to explain the effect thing So if I'm understanding you, the two measurements you have taken have shown no difference in the signal, correct? Will you at least consider the _possibility_ that there's no problem with the output stage and that the effect you are hearing is perceptual? My and hammers soundcards don#8217;t have a Digital in.. Maybe planning baying one. Then we try programs like Audio DiffMaker etc. There were two tests proposed: 1. Using a soundcard with digital-in, record the output from the SB3. This will be tricky to compare as you'll have to match starting points, but as long as the file contains the same segment of music, it should be straightforward. You could also post them here for other people to help you reveiw. This test tells about the digital output from the SB3. 2. Using any analog recording mechanism (with reasonable fidelity and dynamic range), record the good and the bad audio, again using the same section of music. Use AUDIODIFF to compare these. This second test is for THE REST of your system. In other words, if test 1 shows no difference, but test 2 *does* show a difference, the problem is occurring somewhere in the process of digital-to-analog conversion and/or turning the analog signal into audible frequencies. Hammer and I are not so good in the Digital Domain We need help from someone who has the know-how and the measuring tools for this. (Jitter etc) We hope to get some help from Hammers friend at the Royal Institute of Technology to track this thing. He is a researcher and has very limited time. Well, hopefully he'll be able to find the time. Let us know what he finds, if he is able to help you test. -= Jim -- JimC JimC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9428 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Quote: So if I'm understanding you, the two measurements you have taken have shown no difference in the signal, correct? Yes, the two measurements have shown no differance The pinknoise test showed a small differance but this is propably due to the pinknoise and average time? And it´s hard to see any small differance when working with a analog Oscilloscope... To Compare A/B... We plan to do more analog measurements later. Quote: Will you at least consider the _possibility_ that there's no problem with the output stage and that the effect you are hearing is perceptual? Yes and No... Yes, there could be a problem with the slimserversoftware or compatibility with our DACS or something else. No, I don´t think the effect that we are hearing is perceptual, All people that have listen in my and hammers homes are convince that this is not a placebo thing. Quote: My system isn't very high-end at all, so it could possibly have been masked in the digital out--analog conversion--speakers--room effects chain but I doubt that. Are you running with a external DAC ? What amplifier, Speakers etc do you have? You are propably not going to hear any differance through the analog outputs on the SB3. Both me and Hammer have a very fine tunned system. If we remove all the isolation transformers and power cleaners external DAC etc we propably not going to hear any differance or have much more difficult to distinguish between good and Bad sound. /Mats -- omega omega's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
omega;215510 Wrote: Quote: Will you at least consider the _possibility_ that there's no problem with the output stage and that the effect you are hearing is perceptual? Yes and No... Yes, there could be a problem with the slimserversoftware or compatibility with our DACS or something else. No, I don´t think the effect that we are hearing is perceptual, All people that have listen in my and hammers homes are convince that this is not a placebo thing. Good grief. All the people are convinced that this is not a placebo thing and that makes it NOT a placebo thing? If you haven't tested using blind or double-blind methods, thereby isolating knowledge of the test condition from the test, the results simply cannot exclude the placebo effect. Both me and Hammer have a very fine tunned system. If we remove all the isolation transformers and power cleaners external DAC etc we propably not going to hear any differance or have much more difficult to distinguish between good and Bad sound. Hmmm. Allow me to recap what I've read: You've _modified_ a Squeezebox such that you claim to hear a difference, and then call it a design miss but go on to state that an unmodified SB3 would probably not exhibit the problem. You can't _measure_ any difference so far but still insist there is a difference. A bunch of people you asked to listen for a problem believe they heard the problem. You don't perform your listening tests in a way that would exclude awareness of the test condition. But there's *no* chance that this is a perceptual problem... it simply has to exist because you heard it. Okey dokey. I'm done... I've finally crossed the bridge. -= Jim -- JimC JimC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9428 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Wow, really dont know how to say it but.. yes i also live in Sweden, and yes I also work in the same company as omega and hammer65, but no I am not one of them. For the moment im just surprised about some comments that seanadams (Founder, Slim Devices Logitech Streaming Media Systems) and JimC (Logitech Director of Product Marketing) has written in this forum (drugs, bad ears, kids, whine and also that there is a different between a pause and a power off).. Wow didnt know that. Thanks a lot! LoL Serious, I have never been to a forum where the Founder or the Director of a product are so rude and insolent. Every time when I have hade some problem with products I bought from USA or another country the staff and technicians have always been so polite and helpful. Every time when I ask a question in a forum like this I have always got some professional help to solve the problem. Im sure that seanadam knows what he talks about (he is the founder of the SB3) but I guess hes not the only one Its like: I am a doctor (you have all the education I can get) but still.. sorry your kid died on the operation table because the teacher that educated me 10 years ago and the books I read during my education then said that there was no problem cutting the wrist You always have to be updated you know and now these guys (omega and hammer65) have discovered that there are some small sound change in SB3. If I was the founder of a product I have had been glad to get this information. No one is perfect you know Just wondering a little. If the test result is going to show that there is some small changes in SB3 sound are you going to accept this or are you going to complain about that the test result was fixed. ;) Every one know that test results can be fixed so... Then also wondering why a Logitech Director of Product Marketing is chatting on a forum?!?! Hmm, nothing better to do or scared that other people will read this and say the same thing as I do? THAT: I AM NOT GOING TO BY A NEW PRODUCT WITH A TRACE OF LOGITEC. or like seanadams sad in this forum earlier: No, I am not interested in a bet with you. But if you don't mind, I would like a dime bag of whatever you're smoking... Hmm, perhaps seanadams was on drugs when he made the SB3 and I really dont want that my money shall go into a drug addicts pocket!!! AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!! Im also sure that a lot of friends to us neither will after reading the stuff from JimC and seanadams. Best Regards Kalle Anka -- KalleAnka --=[ SI VIC PACEM, PARA BELLUM ]=-- KalleAnka's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
KalleAnka wrote: snip one-sided view of how this thread developed Kalle, I will ignore most of what you've written as it is, quite frankly, laughable and content such as yours is why this thread was deleted in the first place. However, I've said more than once, if you or omega or hammer65 can come up with a reproducible test case that demonstrates this claimed phenomenon then I'm 100% sure that Sean will investigate it and come up with an explanation and fix. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
Kalle Anka, Do you expect anyone registering as Donald Duck to taken seriously? Mvh, /Johan PS It's wine, not whine. -- johann johann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10177 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
I think the point is the attitude shown by Slim Devices and Logitech staff. Someone posts saying they reckon XYZ sounds better or worse, the people in power can respond in one of these ways: - Oh that's interesting. The areas that affect this have not been changed at all by the factor that you propose, and our measurements indicate that there is no change. Could you try this blind? Is anyone else finding anything like this? It does seem unlikely, so we'd appreciate a bit more data. - That can't happen. What is the point of coming out with comments like this that have no basis in my understanding of reality and have not been tested to destruction? Please go away you small person resembling genitalia. It is possible to be open and sceptical, like the first approach, rather than being dismissive like the second. It encourages others to try to test the phenomenon, adding to the dataset, whereas the second approach puts a lot of people off. Whatever people are hearing, they are unlikely to post here without thinking it might be real. Let's have some healthy scepticism and constructive comments - especially from the Slim staff. There is a lot of voodoo and snake oil in hi-fi, but there is also a lot that is unknown or poorly understood. Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Living Voice Auditorium II plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
KalleAnka wrote: Hmm, perhaps seanadams was on drugs when he made the SB3 and I really don’t want that my money shall go into a drug addicts pocket!!! AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!! It was a joke. Do they not have jokes in Sweden? (I doubt it, the Sweds I know are very open and happy people). It was a putdown, true, but no one else read it literally. Please lighten up. And please lock this awful thread. Better, delete it. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
KalleAnka;215168 Wrote: Just wondering a little. If the test result is going to show that there is some small changes in SB3 sound are you going to accept this or are you going to complain about that the test result was fixed. ;) Every one know that test results can be fixed so... Well, it might have to do with that fact that a simple, extremely easy to conduct test was suggested to your friends multiple times. The results of that test (which probably would be conclusive) could have been posted on the forum, and would have been rather difficult to fix (not that anyone would have suspected that anyway). Instead of simply doing it, the suggestion was repeatedly ignored and the discussion dragged on for page after page. So again - if you still think there's a difference, use audiodiffmaker and post the results. Free, quick, and easy. If you don't, case closed. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
delete it ...why, that smacks of censorship is it going somewhere you don't want it too? -- zanash zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
KalleAnka;215168 Wrote: Wow, really dont know how to say it but.. yes i also live in Sweden, and yes I also work in the same company as omega and hammer65, but no I am not one of them. Yeah right... Same writing style... same spelling errors... KalleAnka;215168 Wrote: Serious, I have never been to a forum where the Founder or the Director of a product are so rude and insolent. Then why are you coming now? Just because omega and hammer65 ask you to do so? KalleAnka;215168 Wrote: You always have to be updated you know and now these guys (omega and hammer65) have discovered that there are some small sound change in SB3. If you had read their postings, you would have noted that the real measurements they made showed that there were no differences, but still they insisted that there were differences... KalleAnka;215168 Wrote: If I was the founder of a product I have had been glad to get this information. No one is perfect you know What information? There were no measured differences, so what information are you talking about... No one is perfect indeed... but your 'friends' claim they have perfect ears which is a wellknown defect with audiophiles... KalleAnka;215168 Wrote: Im also sure that a lot of friends to us neither will after reading the stuff from JimC and seanadams. The same counts here: I won't buy any services of a company where they hire idiots like you and your 'friends'... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
I would vote to lock this thread as well, but not delete: it is way too funny :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
adamslim;215179 Wrote: I think the point is the attitude shown by Slim Devices and Logitech staff. Someone posts saying they reckon XYZ sounds better or worse, the people in power can respond in one of these ways: - Oh that's interesting. The areas that affect this have not been changed at all by the factor that you propose, and our measurements indicate that there is no change. Could you try this blind? Is anyone else finding anything like this? It does seem unlikely, so we'd appreciate a bit more data. - That can't happen. What is the point of coming out with comments like this that have no basis in my understanding of reality and have not been tested to destruction? Please go away you small person resembling genitalia. It is possible to be open and sceptical, like the first approach, rather than being dismissive like the second. It encourages others to try to test the phenomenon, adding to the dataset, whereas the second approach puts a lot of people off. Whatever people are hearing, they are unlikely to post here without thinking it might be real. Let's have some healthy scepticism and constructive comments - especially from the Slim staff. There is a lot of voodoo and snake oil in hi-fi, but there is also a lot that is unknown or poorly understood. Adam Adam, You are absolutely right, but you're taking my comments quite out of context. The original post was not a mere inquiry or observation. It was a (very successful) troll. From the beginning Omega/Hammer65/KalleAnka has/have asserted that there is a bug, a design miss, a serious problem etc. For better of worse, I tend to reply to people's posts in kind. However, if you subtract the trolling accusation (which was completely unrelated to the specifics of the alleged bugg) my initial response was dry and impartial: [...]I would suggest that you consider the placebo affect and apply some simple controls for it in your experiments. Good luck. Is it unreasonable for me to insist on proper testing before I'm willing to explore this kind of claim? I for one prefer not to leap directly into the usual handwaving about jitter, EMI, and other poorly understood subjects... at least not until we have a modicum of confidence that the thing exists. Sean -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Design miss in SB3 digital output? or Slimserver problem ?
seanadams;215234 Wrote: You are absolutely right, but you're taking my comments quite out of context. The original post was not a mere inquiry or observation. It was a (very successful) troll. From the beginning Omega/Hammer65/KalleAnka has/have asserted that there is a bug, a design miss, a serious problem etc. For better of worse, I tend to reply to people's posts in kind. However, if you subtract the trolling accusation (which was completely unrelated to the specifics of the alleged bugg) my initial response was dry and impartial: [...]I would suggest that you consider the placebo affect and apply some simple controls for it in your experiments. Good luck. Is it unreasonable for me to insist on proper testing before I'm willing to explore this kind of claim? I for one prefer not to leap directly into the usual handwaving about jitter, EMI, and other poorly understood subjects... at least not until we have a modicum of confidence that the thing exists. Out of context? Agreed! However, I do think that, as CEO of Slim (or whatever nowadays!), you need to rise above how people phrase what they say, for two reasons: 1 - some are foreign and do not express themselves well in English 2 - these are people who have paid money to you. Don't be sycophantic, but do default to validating their position (not necessarily their claim - i.e. see how this would make them unhappy as paying customers if they were right, not that they are actually being reasonable or correct) And yes, it is clearly unreasonable to expect them to perform extensive testing prior to posting here. Part of the point of a forum is to be able to wave about completely illogical and unsubstantiable opinions - some people like that. Encourage them to do the test in a more controlled fashion. Why not offer people a free Squeezebox if they can find an acoustic flaw that results in a change to SlimServer or the firmware? Rather than denigrate them for not doing rigorous scientific testing, why not bribe them to do so? It'd be cheaper than doing it yourself! Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR 859, Living Voice Auditorium II plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36503 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
