RE: Venting about another employee [was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply]
What he said. :) I was about to fire off a missive, when I noticed that everything that I wanted to say was contained herein(after, as well :), hereinafter referred to as "content", said content solely the property of Greg, hereinafter referred to, both on and off the "list" (see section 6.2.1, subsection 3.b, paragraph 1) as "Old Guy", said content being wholly derived, thunk up, and maintained by Old Guy. All rights to content remain with Old Guy, with no liability incurred by Old Guy for any misuse, misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of said content. - Tks| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] BV | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sr. Technical Consultant, SBM, A Gates/Arrow Co. Vox 770-623-3430 11455 Lakefield Dr. Fax 770-623-3429 Duluth, GA 30097-1511 = -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Venting about another employee [was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply]
It all has to do with where you (or the person making the comments) are coming from. Someone without certs won't value them at all. Someone with a number of certs will usually place a high value on the certs. Of course, experience is everything. We've a guy at our office with his MCSE+DBA who couldn't recall any SQL if you asked him today. He took and passed the 3 required SQL tests last year after brain-dumping and taking them repeatedly (2-3 times per test, I believe). Every time we get an SQL problem, I love sending the call to him and then watch him try to wiggle his way out of it. It took him 3 tries to pass the CCNAv2, and now he's on to the CCNP. He wanted to know why he should do the Remote Access test instead of the Routing test. He's worked with ISDN and T1s and perhaps a few frame connections. I asked him, "What can you tell me about OSPF, EIGRP or BGP," and he said, "EIGRP is a routing protocol like RIP, and I guess the rest are routing protocols." Sorry, I'm venting. I'm just hoping we're not paying him much. I've run across a number of people I'd like to hire to replace him. His idea of research is beeping everyone in the office on their Nextels until he finds out what he needs. It was the funniest night: 3 of us were sitting around last year playing with Windows 2000. I got the first beep from him, asking a general question, and I replied back with a general answer. He beeped one of the other guys in the room with me with a question asking," How do I do 'such and such'." The question was the exact general answer I'd given him. That co-worker then replied with some more specific info, and suggested looking it up on CCO. Next thing we know, not 5 seconds later, he beeps the third engineer in the room and asked him some more details. Anyway, our general feeling about the guy is to ignore him unless there is absolutely nothing else going on. It's one thing to be totally stuck and need a little guidance, but once you're given some guidance, use it until you hit another wall, not just to ask more intelligent questions. My boss just keeps telling me, "Just send him all your grunt work." But even that isn't much solace to me, ask he usually screws up even grunt work and it's just easier to do it myself than delegate to him. -- Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/ Cisco resources: http://r2cisco.artoo.net/ "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who posses
RE: Venting about another employee [was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply]
That guy works at your place too? Wow, he must get around... :-) --- Dennis -Original Message- From: J Roysdon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: Venting about another employee [was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply] It all has to do with where you (or the person making the comments) are coming from. Someone without certs won't value them at all. Someone with a number of certs will usually place a high value on the certs. Of course, experience is everything. We've a guy at our office with his MCSE+DBA who couldn't recall any SQL if you asked him today. He took and passed the 3 required SQL tests last year after brain-dumping and taking them repeatedly (2-3 times per test, I believe). Every time we get an SQL problem, I love sending the call to him and then watch him try to wiggle his way out of it. It took him 3 tries to pass the CCNAv2, and now he's on to the CCNP. He wanted to know why he should do the Remote Access test instead of the Routing test. He's worked with ISDN and T1s and perhaps a few frame connections. I asked him, "What can you tell me about OSPF, EIGRP or BGP," and he said, "EIGRP is a routing protocol like RIP, and I guess the rest are routing protocols." Sorry, I'm venting. I'm just hoping we're not paying him much. I've run across a number of people I'd like to hire to replace him. His idea of research is beeping everyone in the office on their Nextels until he finds out what he needs. It was the funniest night: 3 of us were sitting around last year playing with Windows 2000. I got the first beep from him, asking a general question, and I replied back with a general answer. He beeped one of the other guys in the room with me with a question asking," How do I do 'such and such'." The question was the exact general answer I'd given him. That co-worker then replied with some more specific info, and suggested looking it up on CCO. Next thing we know, not 5 seconds later, he beeps the third engineer in the room and asked him some more details. Anyway, our general feeling about the guy is to ignore him unless there is absolutely nothing else going on. It's one thing to be totally stuck and need a little guidance, but once you're given some guidance, use it until you hit another wall, not just to ask more intelligent questions. My boss just keeps telling me, "Just send him all your grunt work." But even that isn't much solace to me, ask he usually screws up even grunt work and it's just easier to do it myself than delegate to him. -- Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/ Cisco resources: http://r2cisco.artoo.net/ "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potenti
Re: Venting about another employee [was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply]
Had a similar situation last year, guy is a fake CCNA, lies his way into the company (interview and all) gets a more senior position, then starts asking me and everyone else how to do stuff and blowing off assignments until someone does them. So I think h oppurtunity!, I start happily doing his work (boss knows) and working on CCNA and then CCNP. Guy continues screwing off and even sneaks away from work (everyone knows), so whats next?, he dissapears once too many, gets fired and I get his job and a fat raise to go along with the CCNP stamp and good on the job experience.. Happy Ending ;-) Cheers! George Murphy CCNP It all has to do with where you (or the person making the comments) are coming from. Someone without certs won't value them at all. Someone with a number of certs will usually place a high value on the certs. Of course, experience is everything. We've a guy at our office with his MCSE+DBA who couldn't recall any SQL if you asked him today. He took and passed the 3 required SQL tests last year after brain-dumping and taking them repeatedly (2-3 times per test, I believe). Every time we get an SQL problem, I love sending the call to him and then watch him try to wiggle his way out of it. It took him 3 tries to pass the CCNAv2, and now he's on to the CCNP. He wanted to know why he should do the Remote Access test instead of the Routing test. He's worked with ISDN and T1s and perhaps a few frame connections. I asked him, "What can you tell me about OSPF, EIGRP or BGP," and he said, "EIGRP is a routing protocol like RIP, and I guess the rest are routing protocols." Sorry, I'm venting. I'm just hoping we're not paying him much. I've run across a number of people I'd like to hire to replace him. His idea of research is beeping everyone in the office on their Nextels until he finds out what he needs. It was the funniest night: 3 of us were sitting around last year playing with Windows 2000. I got the first beep from him, asking a general question, and I replied back with a general answer. He beeped one of the other guys in the room with me with a question asking," How do I do 'such and such'." The question was the exact general answer I'd given him. That co-worker then replied with some more specific info, and suggested looking it up on CCO. Next thing we know, not 5 seconds later, he beeps the third engineer in the room and asked him some more details. Anyway, our general feeling about the guy is to ignore him unless there is absolutely nothing else going on. It's one thing to be totally stuck and need a little guidance, but once you're given some guidance, use it until you hit another wall, not just to ask more intelligent questions. My boss just keeps telling me, "Just send him all your grunt work." But even that isn't much solace to me, ask he usually screws up even grunt work and it's just easier to do it myself than delegate to him. -- Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/ Cisco resources: http://r2cisco.artoo.net/ "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawye
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
"certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
Very well said!! - Original Message - From: "Greg Macaulay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "The.Rock" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
Certs make bad breath a thing of the past... ;-} CCNP, CCDA, MCSE, MCP+I, MCT, CCP, NNCSA See how fresh my breath is? I'm proud of my certs, but I hate typing all of this stuff! I attained these certifications as steps in my path of learning, not as the primary goal. Of course, they didn't hurt the wallet either! Used to be that employers fell for the old "he/she is certified, so that must indicate ability" line, but I think most have wisened up to that by now. Fresh breath helps, but some other quality, such as experience, hard-working, management skills, etc., is needed to really succeed these days. Rik "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
Hey...isn't this the thread that went on for days a couple weeks ago and I cashed in on all the 2 cents and the 2 bobs? I'm gonna be rich! - Original Message - From: "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
i totally agree with you.. . . it is an opportunity to learn and get some sort of recognition of your effort.. some employers don't have a positive impression of certs merly because of some minorities who 'memorise' exam questions and actually passed..! it was a good thing Cisco maintain a high standard in their questions so that only those who deserve it will get it... cheers for cisco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of RG Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Very well said!! - Original Message - From: "Greg Macaulay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "The.Rock" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply
Very well thought out and educated response on certification. Thank You.. On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Berger wrote: i totally agree with you.. . . it is an opportunity to learn and get some sort of recognition of your effort.. some employers don't have a positive impression of certs merly because of some minorities who 'memorise' exam questions and actually passed..! it was a good thing Cisco maintain a high standard in their questions so that only those who deserve it will get it... cheers for cisco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of RG Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Very well said!! - Original Message - From: "Greg Macaulay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "The.Rock" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there are bright, average and incompetent lawyers, doctors and others, the same would hold true in our field. Some individuals in inately intuitive, without certs, and others -- the majority -- will become the average IT Joe/Jane who work day-to-day in this field. Certainly there will always be the small numbers who are totally incompetent. But it is not because the certs are merely paper. That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
I would definitely have to disagree with "certs can help you get a job they do not really educate you unless you are completely new to the networking field." I think that if in the process of getting your cert, you read something other that exam cram, there is a lot to learn. If you look at the cert process as a chance to learn new things, rather than as a chance to memorize a bunch of stuff, there is a lot to be learned. Maybe you can recite by heart every intricacy of the routing protocols covered in "Routing TCP/IP" by Doyle. Not just how to configure them, but how they operate and how they make decisions, or all of the info on switching contained in "LAN Switching" by Kennedy. But most people can't. They may know quite a bit, but if you read both of those books from cover to cover I am willing to bet that somewhere in them there will be at least one new thing that you learn, or hadn't thought about before. The process also let's some of us who don't work in an IBM environment learn something about those protocols. Does this matter? Yes because the more you understand about different protocols, the deeper you can understand how yours work, and how to make them interoperatre. So, if you approach the cert process as a chance to learn that one new thing, rather that memorize what you need to pass a test, then it can educate you. They can give you the incentive to read that one book that you could never find the time to read before, or to try something new in your lab, and figure out how it really works, rather that just how to configure it. You can only learn if you let yourself learn, but if you do then anything can be a learning experience. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stuart Laubstein Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:17 AM To: 'B J'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AW: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I disagree with the assesment of the CCNA being a hard test. I would say it was much easier than any university exam I took with the possible exception of Psych100. You also do not need many math skills to pass a CCNA-ok maybe what hex and binary are etc but thats about it. Even BCRAN and BCMSN were not all that hard. University gives you an education and while certs can help you get a job they do not really educate you unless you are completely new to the networking field. I do agree that with more and more books coming on the market all certs will have more people completing them including juniper and CCIE but that is what Cisco and Juniper want as they need support people if they want to keep increasing sales. stuart -Urspr|ngliche Nachricht- Von: B J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Gesendet am: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 5:52 PM An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. A couple more points: I hear people say that certifications are expensive you best study hard before paying. They are not. Take them 3 or 4 times each, pay your $300 or $400 and enjoy your huge $5000+ raise and job security. Don't postpone it. People a class in Art Appreciation at a "quality university" is going to run you $300 to $400 and is worthless by their own admission. You need the whole degree. ...and yes. CCIE's will triple. There were no books. Now there are. Books make tests easy. That is what make Juniper's test so hard now. You can't read the 12 to 15 they have listed as easily as you can one Sybex book that is designed around the exam. Finally, if you are very knowledgeable and dislike "paper certs". Please put out a book that gets paper people up to par. Something to read after the exam and before your first interview. I think it would be very helpful to many, who have a desire but lack an entire network at home. Plus, if you think people are gaining an edge on you because of certs. You'll be "Published". That puts you in the upper-diety range. You can live a lifetime on that. - Original Message - From: "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... ce
Allen May - Rich man 2 cents at a time (was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply)
I think you're up to 2 bits now, Allen...2 more bits and you'll be up to a nibble. ;-) At 08:04 AM 4/3/01, Allen May wrote: Hey...isn't this the thread that went on for days a couple weeks ago and I cashed in on all the 2 cents and the 2 bobs? I'm gonna be rich! [snip] That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
B J wrote: The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Why do so many people feel that comparing apples to oranges will strengthen their point? Anthropology has nothing to do with networking, and knowlege of one has nothing to do with knowlege of the other. And Its been a while, but I don't really remember any math problems on my CCNA test, unless you consider subnetting to be a real mathmatical challenge. Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. Oh, I see now. You are a schmuck. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major??? What are you be smoking? You are wrong wrong wrong. A degree is far more valuable than a vender specific certification. -Original Message- From: B J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 8:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. A couple more points: I hear people say that certifications are expensive you best study hard before paying. They are not. Take them 3 or 4 times each, pay your $300 or $400 and enjoy your huge $5000+ raise and job security. Don't postpone it. People a class in Art Appreciation at a "quality university" is going to run you $300 to $400 and is worthless by their own admission. You need the whole degree. ...and yes. CCIE's will triple. There were no books. Now there are. Books make tests easy. That is what make Juniper's test so hard now. You can't read the 12 to 15 they have listed as easily as you can one Sybex book that is designed around the exam. Finally, if you are very knowledgeable and dislike "paper certs". Please put out a book that gets paper people up to par. Something to read after the exam and before your first interview. I think it would be very helpful to many, who have a desire but lack an entire network at home. Plus, if you think people are gaining an edge on you because of certs. You'll be "Published". That puts you in the upper-diety range. You can live a lifetime on that. - Original Message - From: "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining a cert. But whether they are PAPER CERTS is truly a mischaracterization. As I put forth above, every academic or professional degree is indeed initially a paper cert -- but with potential. IT folks who obtain these certs by and large have the potential to succeed. Just as there ar
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
LOL. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Drew Simonis Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:05 PM To: B J Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX B J wrote: The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Why do so many people feel that comparing apples to oranges will strengthen their point? Anthropology has nothing to do with networking, and knowlege of one has nothing to do with knowlege of the other. And Its been a while, but I don't really remember any math problems on my CCNA test, unless you consider subnetting to be a real mathmatical challenge. Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. Oh, I see now. You are a schmuck. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Once again, it totally depends on the subject matter being studied. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:11 PM To: 'B J'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major??? What are you be smoking? You are wrong wrong wrong. A degree is far more valuable than a vender specific certification. -Original Message- From: B J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 8:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. A couple more points: I hear people say that certifications are expensive you best study hard before paying. They are not. Take them 3 or 4 times each, pay your $300 or $400 and enjoy your huge $5000+ raise and job security. Don't postpone it. People a class in Art Appreciation at a "quality university" is going to run you $300 to $400 and is worthless by their own admission. You need the whole degree. ...and yes. CCIE's will triple. There were no books. Now there are. Books make tests easy. That is what make Juniper's test so hard now. You can't read the 12 to 15 they have listed as easily as you can one Sybex book that is designed around the exam. Finally, if you are very knowledgeable and dislike "paper certs". Please put out a book that gets paper people up to par. Something to read after the exam and before your first interview. I think it would be very helpful to many, who have a desire but lack an entire network at home. Plus, if you think people are gaining an edge on you because of certs. You'll be "Published". That puts you in the upper-diety range. You can live a lifetime on that. - Original Message - From: "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be respected for the time, effort and interest they have shown in studying for and obtaining
Re: Allen May - Rich man 2 cents at a time (was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply)
My nickname on boards (back in the BBS days) wasn't MegaBite for nothin' ;) - Original Message - From: "EA Louie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Allen May" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:03 PM Subject: Allen May - Rich man 2 cents at a time (was Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply) I think you're up to 2 bits now, Allen...2 more bits and you'll be up to a nibble. ;-) At 08:04 AM 4/3/01, Allen May wrote: Hey...isn't this the thread that went on for days a couple weeks ago and I cashed in on all the 2 cents and the 2 bobs? I'm gonna be rich! [snip] That's my 2 cents. Greg Macaulay, CCNP, CCDP, MCSE Attorney/Law Professor (Retired) Lifetime member of AARP Oldest CCNP/CCDP in existence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
B J wrote: The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Why do so many people feel that comparing apples to oranges will strengthen their point? Anthropology has nothing to do with networking, and knowlege of one has nothing to do with knowlege of the other. Personally, I've found anthropology to be incredibly useful in understanding the corporate environments in which I do networking. Indeed, I'm about to be running an internal seminar program at Nortel that draws a good deal, in its instructional design, to tribal rituals. "Come to me, grasshoppers, and learn the Secrets of the Inner BGP Circles that aren't in RFC 1771." And Its been a while, but I don't really remember any math problems on my CCNA test, unless you consider subnetting to be a real mathmatical challenge. At the CCNA level, no. At more and more advanced level, statistical, and indeed abstract algebra (as in error-correcting codes) becomes useful. Any deep understanding of routing protocols will involve formalism in data structures, automata theory, etc. Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. Oh, I see now. You are a schmuck. Hmmm...all too much of _my_ HR experience has been with Catbert clones. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX ENOUGH ALREADY!
Okay here we go again with this thread .where does it end. Enough already!! From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'B J'" [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:10:32 -0700 The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major??? What are you be smoking? You are wrong wrong wrong. A degree is far more valuable than a vender specific certification. -Original Message- From: B J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 8:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX The CCNA is far harder than any test one will encounter with a major in Education, Anthropology, History, Business Management, etc. Do you really think the dumbest CCNA isn't more knowledgable in many areas, one being math, than your daughters first grade teacher? Bottom line: Remember this: As long as HR employees are hired because they are great looking babes, they will have no clue on talent. Certs give them something tangible and simple that they can understand. Degrees do the same. A couple more points: I hear people say that certifications are expensive you best study hard before paying. They are not. Take them 3 or 4 times each, pay your $300 or $400 and enjoy your huge $5000+ raise and job security. Don't postpone it. People a class in Art Appreciation at a "quality university" is going to run you $300 to $400 and is worthless by their own admission. You need the whole degree. ...and yes. CCIE's will triple. There were no books. Now there are. Books make tests easy. That is what make Juniper's test so hard now. You can't read the 12 to 15 they have listed as easily as you can one Sybex book that is designed around the exam. Finally, if you are very knowledgeable and dislike "paper certs". Please put out a book that gets paper people up to par. Something to read after the exam and before your first interview. I think it would be very helpful to many, who have a desire but lack an entire network at home. Plus, if you think people are gaining an edge on you because of certs. You'll be "Published". That puts you in the upper-diety range. You can live a lifetime on that. - Original Message - From: "Scott Baron" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply Has anyone noticed that people arguing the most that certs dont matter are the ones that haven't 'bothered' to get them. I know that isn't true for everyone... so don't flame me but... see where generalities get you! How shortsited can you be to simply make a blanket statement... certs don't prove anything... geez. Scott M. Baron CCNP, CCDP, MCP, CNA -Original Message- From: Greg Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:30 AM To: The.Rock; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Senior Citizen Reply "certs don't prove anything" ??? I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement. Certs IMHO represent an interest by the individual in the subject matter, and a determined effort to undertake studies necessary to become more knowledgeable. Certainly, obtaining a cert. does not make one a guru. But it usually (albeit not all the time) indicates a person who has shown some willingness to learn. I view the knowledge I gained by studying for my certs as a foundation to be built upon over the coming years. Perhaps I have only a passing or introductory knowledge of some subjects at this juncture -- but I assume -- and I certainly hope that as every year passes, I will build upon that foundation knowledge and at some point I will undergo a slow, but steady metamorphosis into a guru of sorts! But at this juncture with my certs, I would certainly agree that I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! smile I would compare the cert study to obtaining academic and professional degrees. Certainly upon graduation, grads are not experts in any area, but they possess the fundamentals upon which to build. A lawyer, for example, may indeed represent any survivors of a plane crash is his/her back yard on the day he/she is admitted to the Bar, but law school graduation and passing a Bar Examination DOES NOT indicate an expertise -- but it does indicate the individual has the foundational knowledge and the potential to become an expert at some point in the future. I would submit that the same goes for physicians, accountants, architects, etc. I think that the real problem is how these certs. have been marketed. Instead of promising IMMEDIATE big bucks, the certs, should be an entry ticket into this career. Individuals who possess these certs should be
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Hello Hello- I have two of them who sit behind me @ work... Paper Lab guys- it's the newest craze. They only knew exactly what they were asked on the lab scenario (passed the first time). Generally- I believe you are right, but I do have these 2 fellows out of the 4 CCIE's that do not have what it takes to work in an Enterprise network. One of them is leaving because he is about to be let go. We call him Mr. Debug, the RSP melter (long story). But you are- for the most part very correct in your assumption Phil - Original Message - From: "Chris Haller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I too am pursuing CCIE certification and have noticed a recent influx in people attempting and passing CCNP and CCIE written, especially the recent addition of hundreds of people on this board ... Anyway, CCNA, CCNP, CCDP ... CCIE Written, this means nothing. It is good, takes a good amoumt of work and is somewhat difficult to achieve, but if that's your issue, only interview LAB CERTIFIED CCIE's. There is no such thing as a "Paper LAB CCIE" If you pass the lab, you know your stuff .. WELL. HTH --- Adele Galus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike; I find your comment very interesting, most positions state how many years of experience before applying. The only exceptions that I have seen with certification positions, is in the programing field. It's not the certification being a problem - it's the resources for people to obtain experience. My thoughts are that there needs to be more labs for people to work in when studying for their certification that are affordable or that it can be obtain. People need to be involved with study groups and they should do volunteer work or try working as a contractor. This problem became obvious when Cisco Microsoft started programs in San Jose for the welfare people to start becoming certified. Why did they do that What amazes me is how these people, that you are seeing, have passed the test my 03 cents worth. respectfully, adele Mike Davis wrote: I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Chris from Chicago MasterCNE, 5.x CNE, ICNE, 4.x CNE, CCNA, MCP __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
I believe that there are two distinctions that should be made - and that you may disagree with. At least for the bachelors degree, the experience is just that - well beyond the actual academics. In addition, the focus of the GE portion of the program is to diversify - humanities, science, language, amongst others. This is one of the limitations to the Cisco (and other) certifications as the certifications present a myopic view. The second distinction is that I would contend neither represents more than the sum of its components, and that value is perceived. For example, if I graduated Stanford with a 2.1 GPA, as opposed to San Diego State with a 4.0, which school would be a better hire? Few resumes I see have the GPA, and, regardless, a lot of folks use the name... --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould be carefull on your opinion about this things, all the knowledge since a long time ago has been paper, No one has achieve glory after years of practice and experience. I was thinking that you are trying to do the same that the shareowners are doing with the internet economy, you are devaluating the value of the Certifications, why don't you do the same with the college and and graduate degrees, they are very similar just studying and passing examns not real life thing until you pass all the levels (semesters and big exam thesis). Giga Internetworking Fer Saldana _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Robert Padjen __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
d switching network in a very short amount of time using very limiting rules. If you succesfully complete the task, you then get to leave while someone "breaks your network in any untold number of ways" you are then told to fix it once again in a very limited time frame. If you can accomplish this, then you become a CCIE. I think the CCIE certification proves a lot. It proves you have the knowledge, the ability and the troubleshooting skills. It also shows you can work under pressure to accomplish a goal in a limited time. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong grin Louie Belt CCIE #7054 -Original Message- From: The.Rock To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/19/01 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you know how to work on a car if someone said fix it? probably not. And there's my point. You have the tools, but do you really know how to use them, most newbys don't, although they have a clue ( or at least some do) they are unsure. If you truly are experienced in every sense of the word, yes I believe that alone, can prove your qualification. I'll take a guy with "experience" anyday over someone who is certified and little experience. Your the victim??? Of what ?? I didn't do it, nobody did anything to you, you make your own desicions, live with them. You must be a newbie cause you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Hi, My two bobs worth, Any qualification is as good as the paper it is written on. In my experience someone with an open mind, willing to learn, has acquired knowledge, shares knowledge and works smart in an effort to acheive excellence is what really counts. The paper does indicate the person has at least seen the words and knows the lingo, probably the acromymns and often has some understanding. I have seen many a good technical person, well qualified, knowledgable and understanding come copletely unglued when put in a situation the person was not familiar with. The mark of the real expert is 'the real expert will seek, ask and find' the details. He knows how to extract the details. Paper qualifications particularly at a degree level indicates the person can usually do this. I understand the pride of having a bunch of letters after your name. Personally I don't use them although I do have a copy of some of the certs I have gained on my wall. These are for my pride not to show others. I have lost the pride in my qualifications because some have them and do not share, care or attempt to understand. Teunis, Hobart, Tasmania Australia PS. I did think it strange when I read something by a Dr. Icant Remember the name CCIE. On Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 08:01:23 AM, Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI wrote: Bravo! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 4:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould be carefull on your opinion about this things, all the knowledge since a long time ago has been paper, No one has achieve glory after years of practice and experience. I was thinking that you are trying to do the same that the shareowners are doing with the internet economy, you are devaluating the value of the Certifications, why don't you do the same with the college and and graduate degrees, they are very similar just studying and passing examns not real life thing until you pass all the levels (semesters and big exam thesis). Giga Internetworking Fer Saldana _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.tasmail.com _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bobs?? Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Do banks take bobs here in the states? I'm scraping up all the 2 cents worth right now but haven't come across these yet. I can't get the online currency converters to tell me what these are worth ;) - Original Message - From: "Tony van Ree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi, My two bobs worth, Any qualification is as good as the paper it is written on. In my experience someone with an open mind, willing to learn, has acquired knowledge, shares knowledge and works smart in an effort to acheive excellence is what really counts. The paper does indicate the person has at least seen the words and knows the lingo, probably the acromymns and often has some understanding. I have seen many a good technical person, well qualified, knowledgable and understanding come copletely unglued when put in a situation the person was not familiar with. The mark of the real expert is 'the real expert will seek, ask and find' the details. He knows how to extract the details. Paper qualifications particularly at a degree level indicates the person can usually do this. I understand the pride of having a bunch of letters after your name. Personally I don't use them although I do have a copy of some of the certs I have gained on my wall. These are for my pride not to show others. I have lost the pride in my qualifications because some have them and do not share, care or attempt to understand. Teunis, Hobart, Tasmania Australia PS. I did think it strange when I read something by a Dr. Icant Remember the name CCIE. On Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 08:01:23 AM, Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI wrote: Bravo! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 4:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould be carefull on your opinion about this things, all the knowledge since a long time ago has been paper, No one has achieve glory after years of practice and experience. I was thinking that you are trying to do the same that the shareowners are doing with the internet economy, you are devaluating the value of the Certifications, why don't you do the same with the college and and graduate degrees, they are very similar just studying and passing examns not real life thing until you pass all the levels (semesters and big exam thesis). Giga Internetworking Fer Saldana _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.tasmail.com _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
My thought is if you can get all the way through the CCIE Lab and all, you are determined to do the job. How many CCIE's are out there? 8000+-? I would say from the low numbers, this exam is not easy, I have been in the field for 7 years and just started to get my Cisco certification. I feel if I would have started the Cisco stuff years ago, I would have not made it. The material now is still pretty difficult to understand on some days. But, I think the difference is, I am trying to understand it and learn it, not just get by. I want to know the stuff inside and out. I am far from that, I know alot of people that can take the exam, cram all week, and pass. But when it comes to real world experience, it is over for them. Lets just weed out the bad and let them fall on there faces. I like to help people, but if I know this person is only a paper CXXX then I am not going to help them, it is up to us real engineers to put these paper guys in there place, let them fall down and you come up behind them and clean up the mess and save the day! Happy testing! Brad Shifflett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Micromenders, Inc. -Original Message- From: Tony van Ree [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:08 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi, My two bobs worth, Any qualification is as good as the paper it is written on. In my experience someone with an open mind, willing to learn, has acquired knowledge, shares knowledge and works smart in an effort to acheive excellence is what really counts. The paper does indicate the person has at least seen the words and knows the lingo, probably the acromymns and often has some understanding. I have seen many a good technical person, well qualified, knowledgable and understanding come copletely unglued when put in a situation the person was not familiar with. The mark of the real expert is 'the real expert will seek, ask and find' the details. He knows how to extract the details. Paper qualifications particularly at a degree level indicates the person can usually do this. I understand the pride of having a bunch of letters after your name. Personally I don't use them although I do have a copy of some of the certs I have gained on my wall. These are for my pride not to show others. I have lost the pride in my qualifications because some have them and do not share, care or attempt to understand. Teunis, Hobart, Tasmania Australia PS. I did think it strange when I read something by a Dr. Icant Remember the name CCIE. On Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 08:01:23 AM, Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI wrote: Bravo! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 4:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould be carefull on your opinion about this things, all the knowledge since a long time ago has been paper, No one has achieve glory after years of practice and experience. I was thinking that you are trying to do the same that the shareowners are doing with the internet economy, you are devaluating the value of the Certifications, why don't you do the same with the college and and graduate degrees, they are very similar just studying and passing examns not real life thing until you pass all the levels (semesters and big exam thesis). Giga Internetworking Fer Saldana _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.tasmail.com _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Actually, you are way too high on your estimate of CCIE's. As of February 28th 2001 there are 5432 worldwide, 2476 are in the US. A large number of those work directly for Cisco. The certification has been around since 1994 and the first CCIE was #1024 The CCIE World population can be viewed at: http://www.cisco.com/warp/customer/625/ccie/ccie_program/ccie_present.html Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Brad Shifflett Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX My thought is if you can get all the way through the CCIE Lab and all, you are determined to do the job. How many CCIE's are out there? 8000+-? I would say from the low numbers, this exam is not easy, I have been in the field for 7 years and just started to get my Cisco certification. I feel if I would have started the Cisco stuff years ago, I would have not made it. The material now is still pretty difficult to understand on some days. But, I think the difference is, I am trying to understand it and learn it, not just get by. I want to know the stuff inside and out. I am far from that, I know alot of people that can take the exam, cram all week, and pass. But when it comes to real world experience, it is over for them. Lets just weed out the bad and let them fall on there faces. I like to help people, but if I know this person is only a paper CXXX then I am not going to help them, it is up to us real engineers to put these paper guys in there place, let them fall down and you come up behind them and clean up the mess and save the day! Happy testing! Brad Shifflett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Micromenders, Inc. -Original Message- From: Tony van Ree [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:08 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi, My two bobs worth, Any qualification is as good as the paper it is written on. In my experience someone with an open mind, willing to learn, has acquired knowledge, shares knowledge and works smart in an effort to acheive excellence is what really counts. The paper does indicate the person has at least seen the words and knows the lingo, probably the acromymns and often has some understanding. I have seen many a good technical person, well qualified, knowledgable and understanding come copletely unglued when put in a situation the person was not familiar with. The mark of the real expert is 'the real expert will seek, ask and find' the details. He knows how to extract the details. Paper qualifications particularly at a degree level indicates the person can usually do this. I understand the pride of having a bunch of letters after your name. Personally I don't use them although I do have a copy of some of the certs I have gained on my wall. These are for my pride not to show others. I have lost the pride in my qualifications because some have them and do not share, care or attempt to understand. Teunis, Hobart, Tasmania Australia PS. I did think it strange when I read something by a Dr. Icant Remember the name CCIE. On Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 08:01:23 AM, Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI wrote: Bravo! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 4:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould be carefull on your opinion about this things, all the knowledge since a long time ago has been paper, No one has achieve glory after years of practice and experience. I was thinking that you are trying to do the same that the shareowners are doing with the internet economy, you are devaluating the value of the Certifications, why don't you do the same with the college and and graduate degrees, they are very similar just studying and passing examns not real life thing until you pass all the levels (semesters and big exam thesis). Giga Internetworking Fer Saldana _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Circusnuts wrote: [snip] is about to be let go. We call him Mr. Debug, the RSP melter (long story). Jeesh! How'd he melt the RSP? Thats gotta be a story worth tellin'! ;~) _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Then that is even better. The less there are, the more prestigous the certification I think it is. I would say some that do pass probably are just naturally able to do the work with no problem, some are just book smart and have great memorization skills, but doesn't this really require a deep knowledge to pass beyond what alot of us can even comprehend right now? I just started looking at this myself. We just got one guy at our company passed the lab and one pther passed the written. I can say these 2 are very smart and bright individuals. Brad Shifflett -Original Message- From: Louie Belt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 6:57 PM To: Brad Shifflett; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Actually, you are way too high on your estimate of CCIE's. As of February 28th 2001 there are 5432 worldwide, 2476 are in the US. A large number of those work directly for Cisco. The certification has been around since 1994 and the first CCIE was #1024 The CCIE World population can be viewed at: http://www.cisco.com/warp/customer/625/ccie/ccie_program/ccie_present.html Louie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Brad Shifflett Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX My thought is if you can get all the way through the CCIE Lab and all, you are determined to do the job. How many CCIE's are out there? 8000+-? I would say from the low numbers, this exam is not easy, I have been in the field for 7 years and just started to get my Cisco certification. I feel if I would have started the Cisco stuff years ago, I would have not made it. The material now is still pretty difficult to understand on some days. But, I think the difference is, I am trying to understand it and learn it, not just get by. I want to know the stuff inside and out. I am far from that, I know alot of people that can take the exam, cram all week, and pass. But when it comes to real world experience, it is over for them. Lets just weed out the bad and let them fall on there faces. I like to help people, but if I know this person is only a paper CXXX then I am not going to help them, it is up to us real engineers to put these paper guys in there place, let them fall down and you come up behind them and clean up the mess and save the day! Happy testing! Brad Shifflett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Micromenders, Inc. -Original Message- From: Tony van Ree [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:08 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi, My two bobs worth, Any qualification is as good as the paper it is written on. In my experience someone with an open mind, willing to learn, has acquired knowledge, shares knowledge and works smart in an effort to acheive excellence is what really counts. The paper does indicate the person has at least seen the words and knows the lingo, probably the acromymns and often has some understanding. I have seen many a good technical person, well qualified, knowledgable and understanding come copletely unglued when put in a situation the person was not familiar with. The mark of the real expert is 'the real expert will seek, ask and find' the details. He knows how to extract the details. Paper qualifications particularly at a degree level indicates the person can usually do this. I understand the pride of having a bunch of letters after your name. Personally I don't use them although I do have a copy of some of the certs I have gained on my wall. These are for my pride not to show others. I have lost the pride in my qualifications because some have them and do not share, care or attempt to understand. Teunis, Hobart, Tasmania Australia PS. I did think it strange when I read something by a Dr. Icant Remember the name CCIE. On Tuesday, March 20, 2001 at 08:01:23 AM, Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI wrote: Bravo! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 4:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
You sounded like some newbies has stole your job. Do you have something against up and coming people who just want to learn about Cisco and consequently be certified for it. I do not belong to this group of guys for i have been on this business for 12 years but i'm not insecure if too many of them are coming up. Did'nt you said that experience alone can prove your qualification. Then why you cannot prove it on some exam which you pointed out as unimportant and to easy for you. The guy did not called me an idiot, you do! so if you really want to talk about it i have included my address and telephone number so we can discuss it without cluterring this list. And oh yeah. I've been a victim of guys like you twelve years ago. I cannot make myself part of it now. Wilfredo M. Ruelos Network Engineer Riyad Bank -Riyadh Data Center Tel +966-1-472-2750 ext 299 _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
I too am pursuing CCIE certification and have noticed a recent influx in people attempting and passing CCNP and CCIE written, especially the recent addition of hundreds of people on this board ... Anyway, CCNA, CCNP, CCDP ... CCIE Written, this means nothing. It is good, takes a good amoumt of work and is somewhat difficult to achieve, but if that's your issue, only interview LAB CERTIFIED CCIE's. There is no such thing as a "Paper LAB CCIE" If you pass the lab, you know your stuff .. WELL. HTH --- Adele Galus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike; I find your comment very interesting, most positions state how many years of experience before applying. The only exceptions that I have seen with certification positions, is in the programing field. It's not the certification being a problem - it's the resources for people to obtain experience. My thoughts are that there needs to be more labs for people to work in when studying for their certification that are affordable or that it can be obtain. People need to be involved with study groups and they should do volunteer work or try working as a contractor. This problem became obvious when Cisco Microsoft started programs in San Jose for the welfare people to start becoming certified. Why did they do that What amazes me is how these people, that you are seeing, have passed the test my 03 cents worth. respectfully, adele Mike Davis wrote: I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Chris from Chicago MasterCNE, 5.x CNE, ICNE, 4.x CNE, CCNA, MCP __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
My point was that more often then not, certified people aren't what they seem. I like the fact that people want to learn more, because it keeps "everyone" on their toes and learning about new technology. Part of the problem is the industry's lack of insight into these so called certs. They have put too much faith in them and its really the experienced guys who have to take time out to teach newbies. No, no newbies stole my job, I welcome the challenge tho, I doubt they could do it as effective as I do today. I'm not saying they can't do it, but I can do it better and faster, and downtime is $$. Prove it on an exam ? I will in about 2 weeks. Certification is a formality for those that have been in the industry for a while, for others it is their foot in the door. I truly believe that there are a couple out of a hundred that are new to the industry and truly understand concepts and what they are doing. Its unfortunate that its the other 96 or so people that give the certs a bad rap. And yes some are idiots, not most, not all, i said some. I believe that certs show a level of understanding ( don't get that confused with KNOWLEDGE). Knowledge implies some sort of experience that most don't have. I would be glad to call you, but I don;t have the time, and its long distance... ""Wilfredo M. Ruelos"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1">news:01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1... You sounded like some newbies has stole your job. Do you have something against up and coming people who just want to learn about Cisco and consequently be certified for it. I do not belong to this group of guys for i have been on this business for 12 years but i'm not insecure if too many of them are coming up. Did'nt you said that experience alone can prove your qualification. Then why you cannot prove it on some exam which you pointed out as unimportant and to easy for you. The guy did not called me an idiot, you do! so if you really want to talk about it i have included my address and telephone number so we can discuss it without cluterring this list. And oh yeah. I've been a victim of guys like you twelve years ago. I cannot make myself part of it now. Wilfredo M. Ruelos Network Engineer Riyad Bank -Riyadh Data Center Tel +966-1-472-2750 ext 299 _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you know how to work on a car if someone said fix it? probably not. And there's my point. You have the tools, but do you really know how to use them, most newbys don't, although they have a clue ( or at least some do) they are unsure. If you truly are experienced in every sense of the word, yes I believe that alone, can prove your qualification. I'll take a guy with "experience" anyday over someone who is certified and little experience. Your the victim??? Of what ?? I didn't do it, nobody did anything to you, you make your own desicions, live with them. You must be a newbie cause you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". ""Wilfredo M. Ruelos"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1">news:01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1... You sounded like some newbies has stole your job. Do you have something against up and coming people who just want to learn about Cisco and consequently be certified for it. I do not belong to this group of guys for i have been on this business for 12 years but i'm not insecure if too many of them are coming up. Did'nt you said that experience alone can prove your qualification. Then why you cannot prove it on some exam which you pointed out as unimportant and to easy for you. The guy did not called me an idiot, you do! so if you really want to talk about it i have included my address and telephone number so we can discuss it without cluterring this list. And oh yeah. I've been a victim of guys like you twelve years ago. I cannot make myself part of it now. Wilfredo M. Ruelos Network Engineer Riyad Bank -Riyadh Data Center Tel +966-1-472-2750 ext 299 _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
You sound very insecure about your knowledge and your job security. Why must you bash newbies? Are you scared of them? Do they threaten your job? I'd take a newbie with an open mind over a jerk who thinks they know the world anyday. Sure you know it now. But you'll spend ALL of your time "fending off evil newbies" and then loose whatever edge you think you have. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you know how to work on a car if someone said fix it? probably not. And there's my point. You have the tools, but do you really know how to use them, most newbys don't, although they have a clue ( or at least some do) they are unsure. If you truly are experienced in every sense of the word, yes I believe that alone, can prove your qualification. I'll take a guy with "experience" anyday over someone who is certified and little experience. Your the victim??? Of what ?? I didn't do it, nobody did anything to you, you make your own desicions, live with them. You must be a newbie cause you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". ""Wilfredo M. Ruelos"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1">news:01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1... You sounded like some newbies has stole your job. Do you have something against up and coming people who just want to learn about Cisco and consequently be certified for it. I do not belong to this group of guys for i have been on this business for 12 years but i'm not insecure if too many of them are coming up. Did'nt you said that experience alone can prove your qualification. Then why you cannot prove it on some exam which you pointed out as unimportant and to easy for you. The guy did not called me an idiot, you do! so if you really want to talk about it i have included my address and telephone number so we can discuss it without cluterring this list. And oh yeah. I've been a victim of guys like you twelve years ago. I cannot make myself part of it now. Wilfredo M. Ruelos Network Engineer Riyad Bank -Riyadh Data Center Tel +966-1-472-2750 ext 299 _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
If I gave you all of the manuals and engineering specs on a car and told you to study them and then tested you on every detail in those books and you were able to pass the test would that prove anything? If I then gave you all of the tools and all of the parts to a car and said "build it" and you successfully built it, and I then sent you away and I broke the car (in several ways) and told you to come back and fix it and you were able to fix it would this prove anything? Obviously it would prove a lot. This is what the CCIE certfication is like. You must study all of the networking manuals and know every detail and pass a difficult exam to prove your knowledge. Then you are given all of the tools and equipment you need and you must build an extremely complex routing and switching network in a very short amount of time using very limiting rules. If you succesfully complete the task, you then get to leave while someone "breaks your network in any untold number of ways" you are then told to fix it once again in a very limited time frame. If you can accomplish this, then you become a CCIE. I think the CCIE certification proves a lot. It proves you have the knowledge, the ability and the troubleshooting skills. It also shows you can work under pressure to accomplish a goal in a limited time. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong grin Louie Belt CCIE #7054 -Original Message- From: The.Rock To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/19/01 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you know how to work on a car if someone said fix it? probably not. And there's my point. You have the tools, but do you really know how to use them, most newbys don't, although they have a clue ( or at least some do) they are unsure. If you truly are experienced in every sense of the word, yes I believe that alone, can prove your qualification. I'll take a guy with "experience" anyday over someone who is certified and little experience. Your the victim??? Of what ?? I didn't do it, nobody did anything to you, you make your own desicions, live with them. You must be a newbie cause you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
No im just overworked, like anyone else in the IT industry Hey I agree with ya. I'm actually pretty down to earth. I'm just sick of people saying how being certified is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm not a jerk and very reasonable. If the opportunity affords itself, I'll take a new person in and train them instead an person who thinks they know everything. I'll be the first to admit that I by no means am greater than anyone. And if for one mintue you think you have an edge, you already have fallen behind, because someone will always be better. I know what I know now, only due to experience and research ""Christopher Kolp"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 001901c0b0b0$2399d270$8be0acc6@ck2kadvanced">news:001901c0b0b0$2399d270$8be0acc6@ck2kadvanced... You sound very insecure about your knowledge and your job security. Why must you bash newbies? Are you scared of them? Do they threaten your job? I'd take a newbie with an open mind over a jerk who thinks they know the world anyday. Sure you know it now. But you'll spend ALL of your time "fending off evil newbies" and then loose whatever edge you think you have. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The.Rock Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you know how to work on a car if someone said fix it? probably not. And there's my point. You have the tools, but do you really know how to use them, most newbys don't, although they have a clue ( or at least some do) they are unsure. If you truly are experienced in every sense of the word, yes I believe that alone, can prove your qualification. I'll take a guy with "experience" anyday over someone who is certified and little experience. Your the victim??? Of what ?? I didn't do it, nobody did anything to you, you make your own desicions, live with them. You must be a newbie cause you certainly can't handle responsibility if your a "victim". ""Wilfredo M. Ruelos"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1">news:01C0B076.7D826160@COMMS1... You sounded like some newbies has stole your job. Do you have something against up and coming people who just want to learn about Cisco and consequently be certified for it. I do not belong to this group of guys for i have been on this business for 12 years but i'm not insecure if too many of them are coming up. Did'nt you said that experience alone can prove your qualification. Then why you cannot prove it on some exam which you pointed out as unimportant and to easy for you. The guy did not called me an idiot, you do! so if you really want to talk about it i have included my address and telephone number so we can discuss it without cluterring this list. And oh yeah. I've been a victim of guys like you twelve years ago. I cannot make myself part of it now. Wilfredo M. Ruelos Network Engineer Riyad Bank -Riyadh Data Center Tel +966-1-472-2750 ext 299 _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
Everyone was a newbie once... as far as I know nobody was born with a Catalyst 6509 as an extra appendage (wow, would that be a painful birth!). I have issues with people who claim they're something it's obvious to any of their peers they're not, but experience by its very definition takes time. Is it just me or out of every mailing list I've ever been on this one seems the most prone to pseudo flame wars? I thought the great thing about the IT universe was you don't have to claw people out of your way to make it to the top of the game, it was instead about your own knowledge, ability, and experience. My $.02, but I can only read these "discussions" so often before I have to say something... Brandon -Original Message- From: Christopher Kolp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 3:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock You sound very insecure about your knowledge and your job security. Why must you bash newbies? Are you scared of them? Do they threaten your job? I'd take a newbie with an open mind over a jerk who thinks they know the world anyday. Sure you know it now. But you'll spend ALL of your time "fending off evil newbies" and then loose whatever edge you think you have. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
Cudos to Brandon Us techies are supposed to be above the ' discredit the other guy to make myself look good' standard corporate behavior. We all have so many demands on us that I would hate to have to be on guard for the backstabbers too. Let the management types live in the political world and lets keep ours about functionality. Just another .02 Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Brandon Rose [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 2:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock Everyone was a newbie once... as far as I know nobody was born with a Catalyst 6509 as an extra appendage (wow, would that be a painful birth!). I have issues with people who claim they're something it's obvious to any of their peers they're not, but experience by its very definition takes time. Is it just me or out of every mailing list I've ever been on this one seems the most prone to pseudo flame wars? I thought the great thing about the IT universe was you don't have to claw people out of your way to make it to the top of the game, it was instead about your own knowledge, ability, and experience. My $.02, but I can only read these "discussions" so often before I have to say something... Brandon -Original Message- From: Christopher Kolp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 3:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock You sound very insecure about your knowledge and your job security. Why must you bash newbies? Are you scared of them? Do they threaten your job? I'd take a newbie with an open mind over a jerk who thinks they know the world anyday. Sure you know it now. But you'll spend ALL of your time "fending off evil newbies" and then loose whatever edge you think you have. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
When do I get my check? I think the 2 cents are up to a few dollars on this thread now ;) - Original Message - From: "Puckett, Larry (TIFPC)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'Brandon Rose'" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 3:19 PM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock Cudos to Brandon Us techies are supposed to be above the ' discredit the other guy to make myself look good' standard corporate behavior. We all have so many demands on us that I would hate to have to be on guard for the backstabbers too. Let the management types live in the political world and lets keep ours about functionality. Just another .02 Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Brandon Rose [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 2:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock Everyone was a newbie once... as far as I know nobody was born with a Catalyst 6509 as an extra appendage (wow, would that be a painful birth!). I have issues with people who claim they're something it's obvious to any of their peers they're not, but experience by its very definition takes time. Is it just me or out of every mailing list I've ever been on this one seems the most prone to pseudo flame wars? I thought the great thing about the IT universe was you don't have to claw people out of your way to make it to the top of the game, it was instead about your own knowledge, ability, and experience. My $.02, but I can only read these "discussions" so often before I have to say something... Brandon -Original Message- From: Christopher Kolp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 3:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock You sound very insecure about your knowledge and your job security. Why must you bash newbies? Are you scared of them? Do they threaten your job? I'd take a newbie with an open mind over a jerk who thinks they know the world anyday. Sure you know it now. But you'll spend ALL of your time "fending off evil newbies" and then loose whatever edge you think you have. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
"The.Rock" wrote: oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say your 8 years old and I give you a bunch of craftsman tools, does that mean you know how to work on a car if someone said fix it? probably not. And there's my point. You have the tools, but do you really know how to use them Your analogy is badly flawed. You start by referencing knowlege, but then drift into tools. In the internetworking world, tools would be the routers, switches, etc. And in the world of auto-mechanics, the knowlege would be your ASE certification. It would be a much stronger argument if you compared apples to apples instead of to oranges. _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
I respectfully disagree with your summary point. I know at least three CCIEs (R/S) that can't network their way out of a paper bag. The odds are good that you'll find one that has the knowledge, but its not a guarantee. BTW - I have a number of co-workers that have failed the lab but can kick most butts out there! --- Chris Haller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too am pursuing CCIE certification and have noticed a recent influx in people attempting and passing CCNP and CCIE written, especially the recent addition of hundreds of people on this board ... Anyway, CCNA, CCNP, CCDP ... CCIE Written, this means nothing. It is good, takes a good amoumt of work and is somewhat difficult to achieve, but if that's your issue, only interview LAB CERTIFIED CCIE's. There is no such thing as a "Paper LAB CCIE" If you pass the lab, you know your stuff .. WELL. HTH --- Adele Galus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike; I find your comment very interesting, most positions state how many years of experience before applying. The only exceptions that I have seen with certification positions, is in the programing field. It's not the certification being a problem - it's the resources for people to obtain experience. My thoughts are that there needs to be more labs for people to work in when studying for their certification that are affordable or that it can be obtain. People need to be involved with study groups and they should do volunteer work or try working as a contractor. This problem became obvious when Cisco Microsoft started programs in San Jose for the welfare people to start becoming certified. Why did they do that What amazes me is how these people, that you are seeing, have passed the test my 03 cents worth. respectfully, adele Mike Davis wrote: I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Chris from Chicago MasterCNE, 5.x CNE, ICNE, 4.x CNE, CCNA, MCP __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Robert Padjen __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock
"The.Rock" wrote: [snip] While people here are talking about CCNA like its some of major accomplishment. CCIE=accomplishment. CCNA=not really worth the paper its printed on at this point. CCNA is a small piece of the puzzle. Come on people this isn't the whole enchilada!!! NEWSFLASH Newsflash back at ya, your opinions dont = truth, or deft analysis. I dont see ANY posts lauding the CCNA as the be all and end all of the certification world, OR any CCNA's claiming to be the uber-network-guru of this sector of the galaxy (or whatever), so who, exactly, is your longwinded rant targeted at? Since, regardless of your decade + of exp, you are not yet a CCNA, why dont you stop wasting time, and bandwidth, and run out and take the test? In fact, go ahead and take BSCN, BCMSN, BCRAN, and CIT to achieve CCNP. Oh, you say your not familiar with the IOS to the degree necessary to pass ICND 2.0. Well, then, guess what? You are deficient. At least with respect to Cisco reqs concerning certification. If you dont value a Cisco cert, or respect them, then why post here? I mean, whats your point, exactly? You've not added a scintilla of interesting technical info to the thread. Seems to me this is simply another troll to spread FUD. I half expect you will introduce juniper into the discussion soon. Cisco certs are cisco specific, just as Novell, M$, Vines (remember Street Talk, anyone, the 1st directory service?)etc. If you want a non vendor specific cert, get a CNX or equiv. If you simply want to rant concerning the deficiency of CCNA's, then consider this: How will you, and others, view that cert once you have achieved it? That's a rhetorical question, dont reply. But, dwell upon it. Will at least ONE CCNA out there (YOU) be worthy? Maybe there are a few more like YOU. If your company requires it, then be a good do bee, and get it. If not, then pretend it doesn't exist, to the extent that you can, unless unqualified CCNA candidates are constantly calling your boss, who is inclined to hire them, and put you out. If that is the case, well, you chose the company you work for... And you can tilt at windmills forever more about the dimwitted nature of folks who hire, and how they, HR, and 'technical' recruiters cant separate a knowledgeable candidate from a doorstop. But, its always been that way, and it always will be. Especially so in a field where the defacto, and actual standards change as often as they do in IT. So, your lament is for naught. All you can change is you. And, if thats what you are about, you will mitigate your frustrations with the world via the satisfaction you get from a job well done. If you are all about changing the world, then, I am glad you are not on my team. The 'NA cert is an intro level cert. Its that simple. No one here is claiming otherwise. In spite of your contrary opinion. No need to respond. Mark Mahoney CCNP CNE MCP ""Belt, Louie"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If I gave you all of the manuals and engineering specs on a car and told you to study them and then tested you on every detail in those books and you were able to pass the test would that prove anything? If I then gave you all of the tools and all of the parts to a car and said "build it" and you successfully built it, and I then sent you away and I broke the car (in several ways) and told you to come back and fix it and you were able to fix it would this prove anything? Obviously it would prove a lot. This is what the CCIE certfication is like. You must study all of the networking manuals and know every detail and pass a difficult exam to prove your knowledge. Then you are given all of the tools and equipment you need and you must build an extremely complex routing and switching network in a very short amount of time using very limiting rules. If you succesfully complete the task, you then get to leave while someone "breaks your network in any untold number of ways" you are then told to fix it once again in a very limited time frame. If you can accomplish this, then you become a CCIE. I think the CCIE certification proves a lot. It proves you have the knowledge, the ability and the troubleshooting skills. It also shows you can work under pressure to accomplish a goal in a limited time. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong grin Louie Belt CCIE #7054 -Original Message- From: The.Rock To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/19/01 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX - Reply to The Rock oh yeah one more thing...In case you forgot, certs don't prove anything you really are an idiot if you think they "prove " something). The only prove your ability to regurgitate info that you supposedly learned. Having the know how, and knowing how to use are two different things. Lets say
RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
This issue is turning thisgs upside down from point of view. I would like to tell you my opinion. If CCNA, NP, DA, DP and IE written are not worth then your Bachelors and Graduate studies worth the same. Just papers. I learn to configure a cisco router before knowing all the cisco stuff. I have a CCDA, CCNP and going for the complete set CCDA, CCNP and CCIE complete. I knew frame relay,atm, sna, dlsw, sdlc, ppp, ipx, switching, etc before taking any cisco course. I took all cisco traning path version 11.2 and just recently obtain my degrees and working for the big one. What will be your opinion Do I know something or I am just papers? You sould be carefull on your opinion about this things, all the knowledge since a long time ago has been paper, No one has achieve glory after years of practice and experience. I was thinking that you are trying to do the same that the shareowners are doing with the internet economy, you are devaluating the value of the Certifications, why don't you do the same with the college and and graduate degrees, they are very similar just studying and passing examns not real life thing until you pass all the levels (semesters and big exam thesis). Giga Internetworking Fer Saldana _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Vincent - I'm not sure...he had the 2600 installation manual in front of him (Appendix on rommon). He didn't know the rommon variables were case-sensitive, I guess, and didn't have his tftp server set up correctly...he probably won't forget this experience, though. -e- Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 991ka6$ntd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:991ka6$ntd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Did he know how to collect information from cisco website? If he did not know how to did it, I just wonder. ""EA Louie"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó 007f01c0af4c$7ee0a240$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:007f01c0af4c$7ee0a240$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Manoj - that is exactly the point that everyone is making. The certification holds little value unless someone has experience. You have experience. Not with Cisco, but with the underlying technologies. The interviewers (like myself) look for experience. Most companies are only interested in hiring or talking to people with the exact product experience that is needed in their environment. YOUR certification proves that you could PROBABLY do the job for a target company. I don't remember saying EXPERIENCE WITH CISCO ROUTERS. I have always indicated network operations experience, or telecom ops, or network engineering. As far as the motive for people getting certified or working as a network engineer, that is a different topic completely. The original poster (Mike Davis) was merely expressing his concern for the perceived lack of value of the certifications as they begin to enter the market...and how some of these certified people could not design themselves out of a paper bag, much less configure a router properly. -e- - Original Message - From: Manoj Sekhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi all, I am really getting fed up with this discussion of paper certification. I read one mail saying that while interviewing some one, the candidate said that he wanted to become a network engineer for better pay. Is the this guy became a network engineer for serving the company and people? Everybody here is trying to make more money for them self and their family to have a better life by getting better qualified and knowledgeable. The certification and study groups and all are only the means for that. First accept this truth. About being paper certified, I am an engineer with more than 8 years experience in networking field, but unfortunately I am working with a company who is not dealing with routers or cisco equipment's. I have experience in modems, muxes, ISDN equipment's, and supports wide area networks. Now are anyone of you, who is talking about paper certification ready to give me a job even at the entry level to work on cisco routers if I present myself as of now without certifications? I did tried and I didn't even got an interview call. Now I have some certification and some experience, at least I am getting some interviews. What I feel is that the certifications shows that the guy knows how this stuff works and some idea of how to make it work. It doesn't mean that he knows in and out of anything. Then it also shows that he is willing to learn and he can pick up things fast. Don't think that since you have 10 years experience and the other guy doesn't means the other guy doesn't worth anything. He may be able to do things which you can't and he may know things that you don't know. Try to share the knowledge and help him. Without giving a chance, how anyone going to learn? Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but it doesn't feel write to blame guy's like me for not having experience. We are trying to get experience and we selected the path to get there through certification. Since we got certification we don't claim that we are better than a guy with experience. We just want to show that we can learn if you give us a chance. regards, Manoj. EA Louie wrote: some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?&qu
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Your an idiot, and that is his whole point. Grades and certs don't mean Sh*t. It's experience that matters in the end. I whole heartedly agree that it is becoming just as much a PAPER thing, as well as another way for the big companies to generate revenue. On the other hand, leave it up to the companies to hire these PAPER certified people. So they are as much to blame as anyone else. Only tried and true vets, generally will be able to tell you how to do something with confidence, and they aren't even certified usually due to the workload not because they aren't smart). So here's your pacifier.. Cheers ""Wilfredo M. Ruelos, Jr."" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 001901c0af46$551b5500$32ce64d4@ohno">news:001901c0af46$551b5500$32ce64d4@ohno... JUst because u think they dont know nothing, they really dont know nothing . Can u post your grades here so that well see how smart u are? If u think that you know more than people who are getting CCXX certified then why dont u hurry up and take the lab. Dont u think that these people should be credited for what they have achieved. Cisco is not mystery anymore. More and more people will try to learn it. More and more people will produce learning aides, materials that will enables guys to learn as easily as possible. These guys dont have to worry about your opinions after they passed these exams. These guys may even passed the lab before you do. And maybe you will come here complaining that Cisco made the lab so easy. -Original Message- From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, March 18, 2001 2:54 AM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX ( very long)
We'll said.. I'm reading the CCNA book now and I haven't taken the test yet. I've worked in networking since early 90's and I have a good background about how everything works, just not the Cisco IOS. But as I'm reading thru this book, I can't believe really, how basic it is. I know how routing works, just not the IOS. Like i said these tests are just learning the IOS, nothing really much more. Its been a week and a half now and I'm only 100 pages away from finishing the book. I'll admit i will have to go back an re-read a few things, but only cause im studying thru lunches at work and interrupted constantly, as I don't have the time to go home and do this. I'm actually dissapointed that Cisco hands out a CCNA cert if this is all it is. But then again my standards for learning I believe are much higher than most, and we'll above average. Not because I want it that way, but because i have a high aptitude to learn new things and concepts and strive to be better than everyone else. When i pass the test I'm sure that I'll be just as dissapointed in the CCNA cert as i was the MCSE that I blew out in 3 months. 3 months because I actually know the material and had little time to study due to traveling( without the help of study aides). The funny thing was I read an exam cram 6 hours before I took the last test later the same day for my MCSE. Althought the CCNA isn't there, I'm sure that its only a couple of days of reading for someone who has a clue. And that's only cause Cisco test's are like Microshaft's, ambiguous and having to read between the lines as opposed to what real world scenarios are like. Anyone who works in the corporate world will tell you one of the things: 1. It's all about perception. 2. Its who you know, not what you know. And unfortunately, that's the bottom line. "John Neiberger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I think a person's attitude regarding this situation depends entirely on their experience. For me, I began in this field a little over two years ago. Starting from scratch, not even knowing what a router was, I looked up to the CCNA certification as something fairly lofty. All I did for months was study until my head hurt, and then I'd study some more. I also was getting daily hands-on experience at work doing very basic stuff and my employer sent me to a few classes that helped out greatly. One of the biggest helps was discovering this list! g By the time I got around to taking the test, it was far easier than I expected. This was my first Cisco test and I discovered that for a great number of questions, one did not need to know the answer, but you simply had to have decent reasoning skills. For me, I had reached a new plateau and I was totally psyched about it. At this point I thought I might never be able to grasp even CCNP-level concepts, as I was just really getting a hold on material at my current level. I wasn't content, yet I was glad that I had reached one of my first major goals. It was later, while still a CCNA, that I would interact from time to time with other CCNA-level people who had not had the benefit of employer-paid classes and hands-on experience. Because I tend to be egocentric and expect everyone to be like me g I would sometimes be surprised that they could not answer what I thought was a simple question. I began to be concerned that the CCNA was really too easy, not remembering how hard I had studied for months. That was easy?? It was pretty dang hard at the time! My concerns grew when I would interact with CCNP-level people who also could not answer questions that I thought they should have known the answers to. Now I was worried that CCNP was too easy and I hadn't even gotten there yet! It seemed pretty hard to me at the time and it took me longer to get it than I originally expected. After finally reaching CCNP and then CCDP, I wasn't as excited as I was about getting CCNA. I think at this point, the further we progress the more we realize how much we don't know, especially when faced with the daunting CCIE written and lab. In hindsight, it should be noted that the certification does not make the person. There are CCNA-level people out there who are far more advanced than I, and there are CCNPs out there who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper sack. I find that this is largely dependent on personal work experience. A CCNA with four years experience in a production environment is probably going to be more advanced than a CCNP with two years under his belt. When expecting a certain level of knowledge, we should look at both certifications as well as the actual experience of the person in question. Okay, with all of that said, I must agree in part with the original poster. It does concern me sometimes when a CCNP-level person doesn't seem to understand a basic CCNA-level concept. I think this is because I'm worried that since
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX (Epilogue)
We are really sick and tired of hearing such stories. Get a life. "Circusnuts" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 043d01c0af98$4db87d40$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:043d01c0af98$4db87d40$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... First things first- these E-mails back forth represent a "preaching to the choir" scenario. Only the study-ers busy expanding their repartee read, participate, clean out their mailboxes for the benifits of this list. If we're wanting to speak to the people who are only passing tests, doing a mediocre job @ best, debug live Enterprise equipment- again this ain't the place :o) This topic frustrates me too. I'm very professional, study a lot, I don't show up to a jobs looking like I just left the gym or use the customer's site time to figure out what I'm doing. If your conscientious, do good work, don't fall asleep @ the wheel as to where you should be working or what technology you should know- you'll always beat the TCP Magazine salary $$$. Phil - Original Message - From: "Manoj Sekhar" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 3:41 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi all, I am really getting fed up with this discussion of paper certification. I read one mail saying that while interviewing some one, the candidate said that he wanted to become a network engineer for better pay. Is the this guy became a network engineer for serving the company and people? Everybody here is trying to make more money for them self and their family to have a better life by getting better qualified and knowledgeable. The certification and study groups and all are only the means for that. First accept this truth. About being paper certified, I am an engineer with more than 8 years experience in networking field, but unfortunately I am working with a company who is not dealing with routers or cisco equipment's. I have experience in modems, muxes, ISDN equipment's, and supports wide area networks. Now are anyone of you, who is talking about paper certification ready to give me a job even at the entry level to work on cisco routers if I present myself as of now without certifications? I did tried and I didn't even got an interview call. Now I have some certification and some experience, at least I am getting some interviews. What I feel is that the certifications shows that the guy knows how this stuff works and some idea of how to make it work. It doesn't mean that he knows in and out of anything. Then it also shows that he is willing to learn and he can pick up things fast. Don't think that since you have 10 years experience and the other guy doesn't means the other guy doesn't worth anything. He may be able to do things which you can't and he may know things that you don't know. Try to share the knowledge and help him. Without giving a chance, how anyone going to learn? Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but it doesn't feel write to blame guy's like me for not having experience. We are trying to get experience and we selected the path to get there through certification. Since we got certification we don't claim that we are better than a guy with experience. We just want to show that we can learn if you give us a chance. regards, Manoj. EA Louie wrote: some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurat
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX (Epilogue)
First things first- these E-mails back forth represent a "preaching to the choir" scenario. Only the study-ers busy expanding their repartee read, participate, clean out their mailboxes for the benifits of this list. If we're wanting to speak to the people who are only passing tests, doing a mediocre job @ best, debug live Enterprise equipment- again this ain't the place :o) This topic frustrates me too. I'm very professional, study a lot, I don't show up to a jobs looking like I just left the gym or use the customer's site time to figure out what I'm doing. If your conscientious, do good work, don't fall asleep @ the wheel as to where you should be working or what technology you should know- you'll always beat the TCP Magazine salary $$$. Phil - Original Message - From: "Manoj Sekhar" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 3:41 AM Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX Hi all, I am really getting fed up with this discussion of paper certification. I read one mail saying that while interviewing some one, the candidate said that he wanted to become a network engineer for better pay. Is the this guy became a network engineer for serving the company and people? Everybody here is trying to make more money for them self and their family to have a better life by getting better qualified and knowledgeable. The certification and study groups and all are only the means for that. First accept this truth. About being paper certified, I am an engineer with more than 8 years experience in networking field, but unfortunately I am working with a company who is not dealing with routers or cisco equipment's. I have experience in modems, muxes, ISDN equipment's, and supports wide area networks. Now are anyone of you, who is talking about paper certification ready to give me a job even at the entry level to work on cisco routers if I present myself as of now without certifications? I did tried and I didn't even got an interview call. Now I have some certification and some experience, at least I am getting some interviews. What I feel is that the certifications shows that the guy knows how this stuff works and some idea of how to make it work. It doesn't mean that he knows in and out of anything. Then it also shows that he is willing to learn and he can pick up things fast. Don't think that since you have 10 years experience and the other guy doesn't means the other guy doesn't worth anything. He may be able to do things which you can't and he may know things that you don't know. Try to share the knowledge and help him. Without giving a chance, how anyone going to learn? Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but it doesn't feel write to blame guy's like me for not having experience. We are trying to get experience and we selected the path to get there through certification. Since we got certification we don't claim that we are better than a guy with experience. We just want to show that we can learn if you give us a chance. regards, Manoj. EA Louie wrote: some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Messa
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Manoj Here - - here, I feel your pain.adele Manoj Sekhar wrote: Hi all, I am really getting fed up with this discussion of paper certification. I read one mail saying that while interviewing some one, the candidate said that he wanted to become a network engineer for better pay. Is the this guy became a network engineer for serving the company and people? Everybody here is trying to make more money for them self and their family to have a better life by getting better qualified and knowledgeable. The certification and study groups and all are only the means for that. First accept this truth. About being paper certified, I am an engineer with more than 8 years experience in networking field, but unfortunately I am working with a company who is not dealing with routers or cisco equipment's. I have experience in modems, muxes, ISDN equipment's, and supports wide area networks. Now are anyone of you, who is talking about paper certification ready to give me a job even at the entry level to work on cisco routers if I present myself as of now without certifications? I did tried and I didn't even got an interview call. Now I have some certification and some experience, at least I am getting some interviews. What I feel is that the certifications shows that the guy knows how this stuff works and some idea of how to make it work. It doesn't mean that he knows in and out of anything. Then it also shows that he is willing to learn and he can pick up things fast. Don't think that since you have 10 years experience and the other guy doesn't means the other guy doesn't worth anything. He may be able to do things which you can't and he may know things that you don't know. Try to share the knowledge and help him. Without giving a chance, how anyone going to learn? Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but it doesn't feel write to blame guy's like me for not having experience. We are trying to get experience and we selected the path to get there through certification. Since we got certification we don't claim that we are better than a guy with experience. We just want to show that we can learn if you give us a chance. regards, Manoj. EA Louie wrote: some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX ( very long)
Hi Vincent, Are you doing job in PSINET? "Vincent" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 991juq$b3r$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:991juq$b3r$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... 1)CCNP and CCDP is a staring point, from the name of the exam, you will see. Foundation routing and switching. CCNP/DP just a stepstone to CCIE 2)CCIE can demonstrate the lab and means they can do something. CCIE is a stepstone to real networking world. "John Neiberger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I think a person's attitude regarding this situation depends entirely on their experience. For me, I began in this field a little over two years ago. Starting from scratch, not even knowing what a router was, I looked up to the CCNA certification as something fairly lofty. All I did for months was study until my head hurt, and then I'd study some more. I also was getting daily hands-on experience at work doing very basic stuff and my employer sent me to a few classes that helped out greatly. One of the biggest helps was discovering this list! g By the time I got around to taking the test, it was far easier than I expected. This was my first Cisco test and I discovered that for a great number of questions, one did not need to know the answer, but you simply had to have decent reasoning skills. For me, I had reached a new plateau and I was totally psyched about it. At this point I thought I might never be able to grasp even CCNP-level concepts, as I was just really getting a hold on material at my current level. I wasn't content, yet I was glad that I had reached one of my first major goals. It was later, while still a CCNA, that I would interact from time to time with other CCNA-level people who had not had the benefit of employer-paid classes and hands-on experience. Because I tend to be egocentric and expect everyone to be like me g I would sometimes be surprised that they could not answer what I thought was a simple question. I began to be concerned that the CCNA was really too easy, not remembering how hard I had studied for months. That was easy?? It was pretty dang hard at the time! My concerns grew when I would interact with CCNP-level people who also could not answer questions that I thought they should have known the answers to. Now I was worried that CCNP was too easy and I hadn't even gotten there yet! It seemed pretty hard to me at the time and it took me longer to get it than I originally expected. After finally reaching CCNP and then CCDP, I wasn't as excited as I was about getting CCNA. I think at this point, the further we progress the more we realize how much we don't know, especially when faced with the daunting CCIE written and lab. In hindsight, it should be noted that the certification does not make the person. There are CCNA-level people out there who are far more advanced than I, and there are CCNPs out there who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper sack. I find that this is largely dependent on personal work experience. A CCNA with four years experience in a production environment is probably going to be more advanced than a CCNP with two years under his belt. When expecting a certain level of knowledge, we should look at both certifications as well as the actual experience of the person in question. Okay, with all of that said, I must agree in part with the original poster. It does concern me sometimes when a CCNP-level person doesn't seem to understand a basic CCNA-level concept. I think this is because I'm worried that since I'm also a CCNP, someone might encounter this person and assume that the CCNP certification must not mean very much if they don't understand even basic concepts. In the end, though, I don't know if really matters that much. Certifications should never be the final arbiter of a persons abilities. If that were the case, our resumes would be a lot shorter and interviews would be unnecessary. All I can do is strive to make myself a better example of a CCNP (or whatever) and not worry as much about others. When studying martial arts I learned to stop comparing my progress with the progress of others. Their progress was irrelevant to mine. As long as I kept studying and could say that today I am better than I was yesterday, all would be well. I think that applies here, too. Thanks for reading my rambling John the Wordy JUst because u think they dont know nothing, they really dont know nothing . Can u post your grades here so that well see how smart u are? If u think that you know more than people who are getting CCXX certified then why dont u hurry up and take the lab. Dont u think that these people should be credited for what they have achieved. Cisco is not mystery anymore. More and more people will try to learn
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
JUst because u think they dont know nothing, they really dont know nothing . Can u post your grades here so that well see how smart u are? If u think that you know more than people who are getting CCXX certified then why dont u hurry up and take the lab. Dont u think that these people should be credited for what they have achieved. Cisco is not mystery anymore. More and more people will try to learn it. More and more people will produce learning aides, materials that will enables guys to learn as easily as possible. These guys dont have to worry about your opinions after they passed these exams. These guys may even passed the lab before you do. And maybe you will come here complaining that Cisco made the lab so easy. -Original Message- From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, March 18, 2001 2:54 AM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Hi Mike; I find your comment very interesting, most positions state how many years of experience before applying. The only exceptions that I have seen with certification positions, is in the programing field. It's not the certification being a problem - it's the resources for people to obtain experience. My thoughts are that there needs to be more labs for people to work in when studying for their certification that are affordable or that it can be obtain. People need to be involved with study groups and they should do volunteer work or try working as a contractor. This problem became obvious when Cisco Microsoft started programs in San Jose for the welfare people to start becoming certified. Why did they do that What amazes me is how these people, that you are seeing, have passed the test my 03 cents worth. respectfully, adele Mike Davis wrote: I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. Maybe it's just me, but comments like this have always bothered me, regardless of whatever cert program we're talking about. This might come off as a little stronger than I intend it to, but: who are you to say what a CCxx should or should not know? Some people seem to think that because one has a cert, that they should have *the exact answer* to *any* question you throw at them at the tips of their fingers. Well, unfortunately, this just isn't the case. I wrote a post a while ago asking what a patch panel was. I was a CCNA at the time (I'm now a CCNP DP), but at that time I didn't know what a patch panel was. Some people might have said "Well, a *true* CCNA would have *known* what a patch panel was," but hey, guess what, the CCNA doesn't test on patch panels. Maybe you asked this CCxx something that was fair game on the certification test, but they didn't get that question, or maybe they got it and got it wrong, but got enough right to pass the test. In other words, it sounds like you're saying that only people who get 100% on the tests should be granted the certification. And maybe you're right. But Cisco makes the rules, and we play by them - if someone earns the cert, then guess what, they've earned it. Know what they call the doctor who graduates at the bottom of his class? "Doctor." Deal with it. If they're just lucky or good test-takers and don't really know what they're doing, it'll all come out in the end. Who says what a CCxx should or should not know? Cisco says. They say you need a certain percentage of a certain list of topics. If you want to hold a different standard, go right ahead. BJ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX ( very long)
I think a person's attitude regarding this situation depends entirely on their experience. For me, I began in this field a little over two years ago. Starting from scratch, not even knowing what a router was, I looked up to the CCNA certification as something fairly lofty. All I did for months was study until my head hurt, and then I'd study some more. I also was getting daily hands-on experience at work doing very basic stuff and my employer sent me to a few classes that helped out greatly. One of the biggest helps was discovering this list! g By the time I got around to taking the test, it was far easier than I expected. This was my first Cisco test and I discovered that for a great number of questions, one did not need to know the answer, but you simply had to have decent reasoning skills. For me, I had reached a new plateau and I was totally psyched about it. At this point I thought I might never be able to grasp even CCNP-level concepts, as I was just really getting a hold on material at my current level. I wasn't content, yet I was glad that I had reached one of my first major goals. It was later, while still a CCNA, that I would interact from time to time with other CCNA-level people who had not had the benefit of employer-paid classes and hands-on experience. Because I tend to be egocentric and expect everyone to be like me g I would sometimes be surprised that they could not answer what I thought was a simple question. I began to be concerned that the CCNA was really too easy, not remembering how hard I had studied for months. That was easy?? It was pretty dang hard at the time! My concerns grew when I would interact with CCNP-level people who also could not answer questions that I thought they should have known the answers to. Now I was worried that CCNP was too easy and I hadn't even gotten there yet! It seemed pretty hard to me at the time and it took me longer to get it than I originally expected. After finally reaching CCNP and then CCDP, I wasn't as excited as I was about getting CCNA. I think at this point, the further we progress the more we realize how much we don't know, especially when faced with the daunting CCIE written and lab. In hindsight, it should be noted that the certification does not make the person. There are CCNA-level people out there who are far more advanced than I, and there are CCNPs out there who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper sack. I find that this is largely dependent on personal work experience. A CCNA with four years experience in a production environment is probably going to be more advanced than a CCNP with two years under his belt. When expecting a certain level of knowledge, we should look at both certifications as well as the actual experience of the person in question. Okay, with all of that said, I must agree in part with the original poster. It does concern me sometimes when a CCNP-level person doesn't seem to understand a basic CCNA-level concept. I think this is because I'm worried that since I'm also a CCNP, someone might encounter this person and assume that the CCNP certification must not mean very much if they don't understand even basic concepts. In the end, though, I don't know if really matters that much. Certifications should never be the final arbiter of a persons abilities. If that were the case, our resumes would be a lot shorter and interviews would be unnecessary. All I can do is strive to make myself a better example of a CCNP (or whatever) and not worry as much about others. When studying martial arts I learned to stop comparing my progress with the progress of others. Their progress was irrelevant to mine. As long as I kept studying and could say that today I am better than I was yesterday, all would be well. I think that applies here, too. Thanks for reading my rambling John the Wordy JUst because u think they dont know nothing, they really dont know nothing . Can u post your grades here so that well see how smart u are? If u think that you know more than people who are getting CCXX certified then why dont u hurry up and take the lab. Dont u think that these people should be credited for what they have achieved. Cisco is not mystery anymore. More and more people will try to learn it. More and more people will produce learning aides, materials that will enables guys to learn as easily as possible. These guys dont have to worry about your opinions after they passed these exams. These guys may even passed the lab before you do. And maybe you will come here complaining that Cisco made the lab so easy. -Original Message- From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, March 18, 2001 2:54 AM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Dar - I understand your reasoning, and it IS true - USUALLY, the certified guys have a better knowledge base and therefore catch on quicker. The real issue that is being addressed here is the true value of the certification...those experienced network engineers who are in the job already and getting certified feel threatened by the folks who are studying and achieving the certs with no experience or minimal experience, and marketing themselves as CCNP or CCDP. Its the same problem as the initial CNE's and MCSE's faced - but the value of the certification goes up for the CCXX's because *MOST* employers are asking for "CCNP and 4 years of experience", so they're qualifying their need for the certification. Either that, or I've seen ads that say "5 years of networking experience with cisco, bay, foundry, 3Com, CCNP preferable but not required" And of course, the one cert that separates most everyone is the CCIE - it's VERY difficult (some say impossible, but I wouldn't go that far) to obtain a CCIE with no working experience. -e- - Original Message - From: Dar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: EA Louie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:52 PM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX wot i would like to say for certs that they give you a strong base. If you are a CCNP and CCDP you know a lot more then some guy working, but if you havnt worked you are not comfortable with the equipment. So its just that its easier to train a guy whos certified compared to someone who isnt. And its not wise to expect that a CCNP/CCDP should be knowing everything, and i think if they are given a chance they might do better then others. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of EA Louie Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:41 AM To: Mike Davis; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
My take on this is the following. A company will typically make a decision based on what you know. If as a result of your studying, you have learned enough to make it through whatever technical grilling is applied at the interview, you probably will get the job. Most times, experience will be preferred, certification is just a measuring stick. Someone could say,"I have 5 years experience with networking", but until you as a potential employer find out more, you do not know if that 5 years was spent supporting control panel challenged users or routers. Someone with a cert and no experience will have a hard time getting more than an entry level gig. Brian Whalen On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, EA Louie wrote: Dar - I understand your reasoning, and it IS true - USUALLY, the certified guys have a better knowledge base and therefore catch on quicker. The real issue that is being addressed here is the true value of the certification...those experienced network engineers who are in the job already and getting certified feel threatened by the folks who are studying and achieving the certs with no experience or minimal experience, and marketing themselves as CCNP or CCDP. Its the same problem as the initial CNE's and MCSE's faced - but the value of the certification goes up for the CCXX's because *MOST* employers are asking for "CCNP and 4 years of experience", so they're qualifying their need for the certification. Either that, or I've seen ads that say "5 years of networking experience with cisco, bay, foundry, 3Com, CCNP preferable but not required" And of course, the one cert that separates most everyone is the CCIE - it's VERY difficult (some say impossible, but I wouldn't go that far) to obtain a CCIE with no working experience. -e- - Original Message - From: Dar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: EA Louie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:52 PM Subject: RE: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX wot i would like to say for certs that they give you a strong base. If you are a CCNP and CCDP you know a lot more then some guy working, but if you havnt worked you are not comfortable with the equipment. So its just that its easier to train a guy whos certified compared to someone who isnt. And its not wise to expect that a CCNP/CCDP should be knowing everything, and i think if they are given a chance they might do better then others. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of EA Louie Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 6:41 AM To: Mike Davis; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know en
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX ( very long)
1)CCNP and CCDP is a staring point, from the name of the exam, you will see. Foundation routing and switching. CCNP/DP just a stepstone to CCIE 2)CCIE can demonstrate the lab and means they can do something. CCIE is a stepstone to real networking world. "John Neiberger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I think a person's attitude regarding this situation depends entirely on their experience. For me, I began in this field a little over two years ago. Starting from scratch, not even knowing what a router was, I looked up to the CCNA certification as something fairly lofty. All I did for months was study until my head hurt, and then I'd study some more. I also was getting daily hands-on experience at work doing very basic stuff and my employer sent me to a few classes that helped out greatly. One of the biggest helps was discovering this list! g By the time I got around to taking the test, it was far easier than I expected. This was my first Cisco test and I discovered that for a great number of questions, one did not need to know the answer, but you simply had to have decent reasoning skills. For me, I had reached a new plateau and I was totally psyched about it. At this point I thought I might never be able to grasp even CCNP-level concepts, as I was just really getting a hold on material at my current level. I wasn't content, yet I was glad that I had reached one of my first major goals. It was later, while still a CCNA, that I would interact from time to time with other CCNA-level people who had not had the benefit of employer-paid classes and hands-on experience. Because I tend to be egocentric and expect everyone to be like me g I would sometimes be surprised that they could not answer what I thought was a simple question. I began to be concerned that the CCNA was really too easy, not remembering how hard I had studied for months. That was easy?? It was pretty dang hard at the time! My concerns grew when I would interact with CCNP-level people who also could not answer questions that I thought they should have known the answers to. Now I was worried that CCNP was too easy and I hadn't even gotten there yet! It seemed pretty hard to me at the time and it took me longer to get it than I originally expected. After finally reaching CCNP and then CCDP, I wasn't as excited as I was about getting CCNA. I think at this point, the further we progress the more we realize how much we don't know, especially when faced with the daunting CCIE written and lab. In hindsight, it should be noted that the certification does not make the person. There are CCNA-level people out there who are far more advanced than I, and there are CCNPs out there who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper sack. I find that this is largely dependent on personal work experience. A CCNA with four years experience in a production environment is probably going to be more advanced than a CCNP with two years under his belt. When expecting a certain level of knowledge, we should look at both certifications as well as the actual experience of the person in question. Okay, with all of that said, I must agree in part with the original poster. It does concern me sometimes when a CCNP-level person doesn't seem to understand a basic CCNA-level concept. I think this is because I'm worried that since I'm also a CCNP, someone might encounter this person and assume that the CCNP certification must not mean very much if they don't understand even basic concepts. In the end, though, I don't know if really matters that much. Certifications should never be the final arbiter of a persons abilities. If that were the case, our resumes would be a lot shorter and interviews would be unnecessary. All I can do is strive to make myself a better example of a CCNP (or whatever) and not worry as much about others. When studying martial arts I learned to stop comparing my progress with the progress of others. Their progress was irrelevant to mine. As long as I kept studying and could say that today I am better than I was yesterday, all would be well. I think that applies here, too. Thanks for reading my rambling John the Wordy JUst because u think they dont know nothing, they really dont know nothing . Can u post your grades here so that well see how smart u are? If u think that you know more than people who are getting CCXX certified then why dont u hurry up and take the lab. Dont u think that these people should be credited for what they have achieved. Cisco is not mystery anymore. More and more people will try to learn it. More and more people will produce learning aides, materials that will enables guys to learn as easily as possible. These guys dont have to worry about your opinions after they passed these exams. These guys may even passed the lab before you do.
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Did he know how to collect information from cisco website? If he did not know how to did it, I just wonder. ""EA Louie"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó 007f01c0af4c$7ee0a240$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:007f01c0af4c$7ee0a240$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Hi all, I am really getting fed up with this discussion of paper certification. I read one mail saying that while interviewing some one, the candidate said that he wanted to become a network engineer for better pay. Is the this guy became a network engineer for serving the company and people? Everybody here is trying to make more money for them self and their family to have a better life by getting better qualified and knowledgeable. The certification and study groups and all are only the means for that. First accept this truth. About being paper certified, I am an engineer with more than 8 years experience in networking field, but unfortunately I am working with a company who is not dealing with routers or cisco equipment's. I have experience in modems, muxes, ISDN equipment's, and supports wide area networks. Now are anyone of you, who is talking about paper certification ready to give me a job even at the entry level to work on cisco routers if I present myself as of now without certifications? I did tried and I didn't even got an interview call. Now I have some certification and some experience, at least I am getting some interviews. What I feel is that the certifications shows that the guy knows how this stuff works and some idea of how to make it work. It doesn't mean that he knows in and out of anything. Then it also shows that he is willing to learn and he can pick up things fast. Don't think that since you have 10 years experience and the other guy doesn't means the other guy doesn't worth anything. He may be able to do things which you can't and he may know things that you don't know. Try to share the knowledge and help him. Without giving a chance, how anyone going to learn? Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but it doesn't feel write to blame guy's like me for not having experience. We are trying to get experience and we selected the path to get there through certification. Since we got certification we don't claim that we are better than a guy with experience. We just want to show that we can learn if you give us a chance. regards, Manoj. EA Louie wrote: some of the certs are like getting a "paper diploma" (which is what I got... heheheh) So, if they are going to take the risk and study for the cert on the hopes that they can get a job using the cert as leverage, more power to them! By virtue of the testing mechanism, the CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCDP will be attainable by studying. I work with one now, who has both a CCNP and CCDP, but couldn't reload an erased flash on a 2600 series router... go figure. I was very tempted to ask, "What are those certs really for?", but I just smiled and helped him reload the flash from a tftp server using rommon. (By the way, the variables in rommon on a 2600 are case sensitive :-) When I first started working in industry after earning my degree, my boss put me together with a technician who had no degree, but tons of experience. The tech rolled his eyes when he met me and said, "Great...I gotta train ANOTHER engineer". What he didn't count on was that I'd learn how to do his job, not to his skill level (he had 10+ years in the industry), but good enough so that he'd trust me to do the work if he wasn't around. I kind of feel like him, now... a non-certified "packet jockey" that has to train these certified, "paper trained", network "engineers". I interviewed a guy the other day and asked him, "Why do you want to get Cisco certified?". He said, because he wanted to be a network engineer and learn how to read/interpret Cisco configurations. When I asked him "Why do you want to be a network engineer?", his reason was pretty weak (but I'd guess he'd have said "the money" if I pressed him). The havoc I could wreak on these guys with policy routing, access-groups, NAT, and route maps... heheheheh...evil grin - Original Message - From: Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX ( very long)
I think the old saying from college was: When you get your B.S you think you know everything. When you get your M.S. you know you know everything. When you get your Ph.D you realize you know nothing. Jim "John Neiberger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I think a person's attitude regarding this situation depends entirely on their experience. For me, I began in this field a little over two years ago. Starting from scratch, not even knowing what a router was, I looked up to the CCNA certification as something fairly lofty. All I did for months was study until my head hurt, and then I'd study some more. I also was getting daily hands-on experience at work doing very basic stuff and my employer sent me to a few classes that helped out greatly. One of the biggest helps was discovering this list! g By the time I got around to taking the test, it was far easier than I expected. This was my first Cisco test and I discovered that for a great number of questions, one did not need to know the answer, but you simply had to have decent reasoning skills. For me, I had reached a new plateau and I was totally psyched about it. At this point I thought I might never be able to grasp even CCNP-level concepts, as I was just really getting a hold on material at my current level. I wasn't content, yet I was glad that I had reached one of my first major goals. It was later, while still a CCNA, that I would interact from time to time with other CCNA-level people who had not had the benefit of employer-paid classes and hands-on experience. Because I tend to be egocentric and expect everyone to be like me g I would sometimes be surprised that they could not answer what I thought was a simple question. I began to be concerned that the CCNA was really too easy, not remembering how hard I had studied for months. That was easy?? It was pretty dang hard at the time! My concerns grew when I would interact with CCNP-level people who also could not answer questions that I thought they should have known the answers to. Now I was worried that CCNP was too easy and I hadn't even gotten there yet! It seemed pretty hard to me at the time and it took me longer to get it than I originally expected. After finally reaching CCNP and then CCDP, I wasn't as excited as I was about getting CCNA. I think at this point, the further we progress the more we realize how much we don't know, especially when faced with the daunting CCIE written and lab. In hindsight, it should be noted that the certification does not make the person. There are CCNA-level people out there who are far more advanced than I, and there are CCNPs out there who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper sack. I find that this is largely dependent on personal work experience. A CCNA with four years experience in a production environment is probably going to be more advanced than a CCNP with two years under his belt. When expecting a certain level of knowledge, we should look at both certifications as well as the actual experience of the person in question. Okay, with all of that said, I must agree in part with the original poster. It does concern me sometimes when a CCNP-level person doesn't seem to understand a basic CCNA-level concept. I think this is because I'm worried that since I'm also a CCNP, someone might encounter this person and assume that the CCNP certification must not mean very much if they don't understand even basic concepts. In the end, though, I don't know if really matters that much. Certifications should never be the final arbiter of a persons abilities. If that were the case, our resumes would be a lot shorter and interviews would be unnecessary. All I can do is strive to make myself a better example of a CCNP (or whatever) and not worry as much about others. When studying martial arts I learned to stop comparing my progress with the progress of others. Their progress was irrelevant to mine. As long as I kept studying and could say that today I am better than I was yesterday, all would be well. I think that applies here, too. Thanks for reading my rambling John the Wordy JUst because u think they dont know nothing, they really dont know nothing . Can u post your grades here so that well see how smart u are? If u think that you know more than people who are getting CCXX certified then why dont u hurry up and take the lab. Dont u think that these people should be credited for what they have achieved. Cisco is not mystery anymore. More and more people will try to learn it. More and more people will produce learning aides, materials that will enables guys to learn as easily as possible. These guys dont have to worry about your opinions after they passed these exams. These guys may even passed the lab before you do. And maybe you will come here complaining that Cisco made the lab
Re: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX
Right on Jim ""Jim McDowell"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 000701c0af62$7288d600$376b84d1@dude">news:000701c0af62$7288d600$376b84d1@dude... This archaic line of thought has been around for ages...in every conceivable organization, since Ally Oop was a fetus...for example, "I had to walk five miles to school every day when I was a kid", or "The old corps was better". Some people are lucky enough to find an employer who will hire a no-nothing and train them into a qualified network administrator. Others aren't...they have to work for certifications and then get employed in the networking field. For most, having a certification just means they are trying to be better (better job, advancement, change careers, etc)what can be wrong with that? In the long run it is always your skill, dedication, perseverance, knowledge, attitude, etc., etc. that get you ahead, not the perceived value of your certification. - Original Message - From: "Mike Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Cisco Certs Becoming Paper CCXX I will probably get yelled at for this one but... I am a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and yes going after the CCIE. So up front I am not against certs. I am becoming aware of more and more people becoming Cisco certified and not know enough to go and actually do the work. Our company has and is interviewing for network folks, I have the opportunity to interview these people to verify technical experience. I have had CCNA, CCNP, and yes even CCIE written folks who could not tell me what they 'should' acutally know. This scares me because I am also working hard toward my certs and the CCIE. But it has been proven and is showing up more that these people are becoming "paper" Cisco folks, as in the paper MCSE. I know and hope the CCIE LAB and title will remain as difficult if not more so in the future. I for one do not want to spend a year of my life gaining the CCIE title to be one among thousands who also have it. That is my insite and hope Cisco will try to make it more difficult to obtain the CCNP/DP and not become another MCSE program. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
