Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Ah, I see your point, Lord Dentin. But you yourself have made your game, ... supposedly I'd think firstly made for sighted players, accessible. I know, text is a lot easier to work with than graphics, but still, there are other devs who have done things for us. Look at Injustice, gods among us, with its audio feedback for items and such, and I think Mortal kombat x has it now too. I'm not saying all devs could or would do this. I think Ed Boon had a run-in with a blind player, learned our ways and will hopefully simply support us, well I mean make his games accessible, from then on, although I think the dragon ball z budokai tencaichi games were extremely accessible even without the devs, I assume, knowing that adding spoken contents to the menues of the games, like Here you can fight lots of battles, I wonder if anyone can beat Dad? --Videl, for the martial arts tournament. and things like that. Of course there were references to dragon ball z relations and events, but you could easily get the basics of the menues that way, and I've never seen a series so very accessible since, even the later dragon ball z games don't have this. So, I think that if devs try, and we reach out to different developers, and companies make it easier to put accessibility into their games, and Dentin makes a mac/iOS client with sounds, for alter aeon, ... on that note, I wonder why Dentin can't just send the text of the game to the terminal's say function? Hmm. I wouldn't imagine a toolkit that supports other operating systems would lock out the use of that system's API's. Hmm. Couldn't he use voiceover and it's apple scripting to speak? Gosh that'd be awesome! Especially if there was a way to take out those horrible delays in speech when a new line comes in. Okay I've gotten way off topic here, but if y'all want you can start a new topic for each of the thoughts I've had. Its just all coming out at once, lol. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 1, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Yes but I think that kind of battle of ideas have been what makes up history. Do you think there was one singular idea about how America should be ran? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 16, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Yeah, I know what you meant. However, I wanted to specify what types of games would appeal to the blind organizations. Generally educationally specific games would have an appeal to NFB, ACB, AFB, etc because they would have none of the stigma and other issues attached to them making them an ideal choice. The one thing you are not considering is that over the last couple of decades or so many Americans have caught a mental disease called political correctness. In our new politically correct world businesses, organizations, and government agencies are hesitant to adopt things that even smell like trouble. Anything and everything can be considered offensive by somebody and that kind of craziness is ruining America as a country because everybody is aloud to speak their mind, have a right to be heard, even though what they have to say might be absolutely insane. We are in many ways caught up in a culture war where ideas are being battled out in courts and in the news papers and TV over someone's ideas of what the right kind of society we should have. For example, take a simple card game like Blackjack or Poker. A non-Christian might find such a game as harmless entertainment. A Christian fundamentalist might view that game as sinful, evil, and as promoting the evils of gambling. So would take offense if they found such a game on a computer at their local NFB, ACB, or AFB training center. Thus what some might view as harmless entertainment another person might find reason to complain and raise a stink over it. Therefore an organization who doesn't want that kind of hassle would forego all games and not deal with the pressures that go with a bit of controversy. If you think I am stretching things I've known people my ex and I use to go to church with who didn't own a deck of playing cards because they thought card playing was sinful. They had the Microsoft card games like Solitaire, Hearts, etc removed from their computer because they didn't want them around. To a non-Christian like me I found their attitudes towards games a bit crazy, but once you understand the religiosity that runs deep in this country you would understand how passing out games to organizations could be a controversial problem for them just because not all their clients are going to view those games as harmless entertainment. Either they are going to dislike them out of some religious sense of morality, or they may have this attitude that gamers are over grown children. Thus games might not be something organizations will want to per mote unless they are so neutral and generic that they don't offend anyone's sensibilities. As to the stigma of gamers themselves being overgrown kids I think for the most part that attitude is slowly falling off herein the states too. For one thing games haven't remained the same and they are growing up as the gamers have grown up. Back in the 80's games were basically toys. Games like Pac-Man, Centipede, and Frogger were rather childish and if one's definition of games is simple arcade games then yeah they would seem somewhat childish to some adults. However, as I pointed out games have grown up too. We have the horror games like Silent Hill which requires a more mature audience than your typical kid. Silent Hill is in many ways pretty darn disturbing and is designed for an older more mature gamer. Games like Grand Theft Auto also are not designed for kids per se and are for an older age group of gamers. I suspect those with the idea that gamers are lazy social outcasts, nerds, or overgrown kids are people who have no connection with games, are somewhat older people, thus have no idea how much games have changed. All they know is games are just some expensive toys that their children and perhaps grandchildren have not grown out of for some reason. They have not educated themselves on how different gaming is today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I wasn't actually thinking of developers making specifically designed educational games to teach something (although it's obviously good when that happens as with the Looktell voiceover tutorial), just of presenting some of the games we already have as education exercises in pointing out what can be learnt from them. For example, many of the space invaders style audio titles encourage sound memorization and identification, several first person games like shades of doom require the player to learn techniques for navigating space from only audio information, while more recently on the Iphone we're seeing games like audio defense zombie arena that actually
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
4 hours on one thing? I admit to having played entombed for maybe 10 hours straight, but I could never do something as frustrating as learn to program for that long. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 19, 2015, at 1:03 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Shaun, It sounds to me you are describing attention deficit disorder better known as A.D.D. In order to program anything let alone games you have to be able to sit down and spend more time than 30 minutes on it without becoming distracted. If you can't stay focused on a project more than 30 minutes there is no way you will ever get anything productive done. There were days at the height of game development where I sat down and worked for four hours straight without taking a break. Granted that was before my personal health issues came up, but the point here is that programming games and other software requires quite a commitment above and beyond five minutes here and there when a person feels like it. Cheers! On 6/17/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: wow been out of touch lately playing ironic renpy gamebooks. Anyway I agree with everything you have said up to this point. I tried to program but I never got that far never had the patience to stick with actual code nore the wish to write programs. While I can write stories in my head writing it down is impossible I never can get everything or if I do it its way to short or I forget and have a mindlock. Testing and sounds are my strong point though sound recorder and shoving sfx together is as far as I have needed to go. I have done some voice scripts but to be honest my hardware is budget and I have neither the cash or space more importantly space to store or use the more expensive stuff pluss my environment is just not cut out for that sort of thing. I have also the lazyness issue where I tend to comit to stuff then suddenly get distracted or burn out for no reason what so ever. Then I stress that if I have something I need to do that I won't get it in on time etc. Saying that the stuff I do do I try to do the best I can. However I have never been able to work for more than 30 minutes at a time even less and I have to be in a mood to even do things. This mood can change depending on what the computer is doing or if something is on my plate to do or if I am completely relaxed. Sometimes I get to a point where I feel I can string things together and make something sometimes I get there sometimes I don't. Eventually though shortly before I am even done reality comes back to hit me again and I wander what I started and kill it till the next time. I find it hard to stick to some tasks long term or if something is to hard or needs concentration over a sertain point I find it easier to put it off for ever so yeah to be a developer is hard work and as far as I care you devs are cool an do good things. I don't know if I will get to that stage I may do some day who knows. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Well if all this fails, I think the best way to go about things is to make an engine like BGT that works with multiple platforms. Perhaps Swift would be a good choice, or perhaps that thing Irion made would work, although I rather doubt it, and haven't heard of anything new in that for quite a while. Perhaps Python? I'd imagine Java is too clunkie for that, but Python and PyGame might be good choices, well if the project doesn't flop like that audio version of something close to super Mario bros did in 2006 or so. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 1, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks, Dennis. Yes, I agree. It is not that I am outright apposed to making Unity accessible so much as I am very doubtful to what extent that accessibility would really help. We are talking about two completely different concepts. Unity was designed to create highly graphical visual games, and what a blind person needs is highly specialized audio based games. I have always felt that specialized languages and tools are better suited to making specialized software because the developer is not trying to tack accessibility onto something that was never designed for that purpose in the first place. That is why for the most part I have designed my own engine and some tools for game development. I have done well for myself, got what I wanted, and I don't have to mess around with pleading with some developer to make their tools accessible to me. Plus I have the advantages of owning the source code to same so can upgrade, change, or fix anything that needs done without having to file a bug report or feature request with some other developer. I suppose that just comes from a sense of independence and choice that some people do not have. Cheers! On 7/1/15, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Yes Dennis, Unity is primarily a graphical development engine, and yes, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games. You use always tools that are at first designed for graphic use: a word processor, a chat client, a web browser, etc. Every kind of application isn’t blind friendly, you will always have to fit to a graphic interface, and it doesn't make sense to have application specifically for blinds, simply because you share them with other people all around the world. But I understand you when you say you want your working tools to be dressed upon your needs, and that specialized tools are the correct thing to do, why should it be different? Well… in this case it should: when you think to Unity Accessible you think to what you lose, but if you accept this “compromise” you can see that what you gain is higher than what you lose. I'm here also because I need your opinion, and to ask if what I've just said can be valid or not. I don't know indeed your specialized tools, and you don't know indeed Unity. I will show my side. Unreal Engine and CryEngine are strictly connected to high quality visual experience, they have complex tools to design massive terrain, vegetation, light effects, etc. Unity isn’t like them, why the Unity Company should offer the same product as the two colossus Unreal and CryEngine? In fact it doesn’t. When you at first open Unity, you won’t have any kind of complex tool for character, terrain, AI, explosion, collision, etc. In some case they are very basic, in other there aren’t at all. Basically it has a poor interface and tools, the minimum necessary: -A window containing the list of all scene objects -A window which shows properties of selected object -A sort of Windows Explorer which shows all the files of your project in your hard disk But it lets you the ability to create or import the tools you need. This is for me the first important point: the flexibility. It is like a lego construction, you add or remove bricks accordly with your need, you can create your own tools, shortcut and interface if you want. But, for now this is not so important for you. Programming skills are absolutly required. This means job opportunities for blind into a sighted pipeline. A designer who opens Unity and say:Ok, now I create fast and easy the best game in the world and I gain a lot of money, will be soon disappointed. A lot of time during a Unity Project is spent on a script editor. Due to his flexibility (it doesn't force you to a specific tool) you have to create your own assets and scripts, or you can buy it in the Asset Store. This is a second important point: the need of one in a lot of cases is the need of many. You can spend hours and hours to create something that already has been done, and with few dollars you save a lot of time, then nothing prevents you from custom it. Do not underestimate the power of a community, it makes the entire workflow more fluid and leaner, even if you are theorically able to do all by yourself. In general a more complex project can be realized in less time and, consequently, less money. Third point: multiplatform. But doesn't need to spend words for that. Another important thing is 3D sound. A lot of modern disciplines must say thank you to VideoGames, because they increased hardware and software progress. Now the graphic experience has reached a high level, and the interest is moving toward the other part which has been left behind: Audio. Consider technologies like Oculus Rift, it means VR (Virtual Reality), both for video and audio too. The future implementation of HRTF (Head-related transfer function) for binaural effect and ambisonic sound. 3D Audio Render Engine are yet in development. You can design and project acoustics of environment not only for games but also for architectural purpose. Why a blind person (developer or designer) should be cut off from all this? Unfortunatley I don't take money if more users use Unity, and times to make it full accessible are very long for use it in a short period into a strong pipeline. If I say these things is because I really believe that an application like that could improve audiogames development and distribution, and job opportunities for blinds. I'm not a good talker, and the limitation of language doesn't help. The web is full of useful information about more technical subjects. You can also ask in the forum for more specific how-to. At the end... Unity is just a tool for a purpose. If you feel you have reached the goal with other tools, sounds good anyway. I thank you very much for this comparison. Good Job. Daniele. 2015-07-02 8:38 GMT+02:00 Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com: Well if all this fails, I think the best way to go about things is to make an engine like BGT that works with multiple platforms. Perhaps Swift would be a good choice, or perhaps that thing Irion made would work, although I rather doubt it, and haven't heard of
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hello Daniele , You are right. One method does not exclude the other. I was merely pointing out that for me personally it isn't something I'd be interested in per suing as a developer. I was not, however, suggesting that someone else such as yourself should follow the path I have taken. That said, I am somewhat skeptical, maybe even a bit cynical, how much ground we will get with the Unity developers. I may be surprised, but in the majority of cases of talking with mainstream developers they seem fairly apposed to introducing serious changes in their products to add accessibility unless they can truly be convinced of some financial or other benefit to the changes. Thus I guess you could say I have given up trying. My philosophy is more or less do it myself or not at all rather than depend on mainstream developers to take time out of their lives to add accessibility to their product. That in a nutshell is why I prefer to sit on the sidelines, because I have found another way to go about the same results that work for me personally. Cheers! On 7/1/15, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Scott, Yes, cross-platform support is definitely one reason people may want to use Unity. Anyone who has tried doing cross-platform development learns early on that it is pretty difficult and a tool like Unity obviously helps ease a developer in the transition from one platform to another because it was developed for multiple platforms. That is most definitely an advantage in Unity's favor over traditional programming languages. That said, the reason most accessible games are not cross-platform is simply because the developer in question chose a lot of Windows specific languages and tools like Visual Basic 6, for example, and now are unable to change because their games and development tools were tied specifically to Windows. Had they chosen C, C++, Python, Java, or something else they would have had much more freedom to explore alternative platforms. So while Unity would certainly help just choosing a more cross-platform language and tools would work equally well. Cheers! On 7/1/15, Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com wrote: Whether I agree or not, I think it's worth pointing out early on in the discussion that cross platform compatibility is probably a big draw when it comes to reasons that this chap would like to see Unity improve accessibility. BGT is great, but it doesn't help anyone compile games on iOS or any of the other platforms with fast growing adoption. I'm aware of just a few of the many hurdles in the way of decent cross platform accessibility, but will probably pop a vote down on this just in case it meets a receptive developer and something however small improves about the gaming experience on iOS or Mac. Just some thoughts... Scott --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Whether I agree or not, I think it's worth pointing out early on in the discussion that cross platform compatibility is probably a big draw when it comes to reasons that this chap would like to see Unity improve accessibility. BGT is great, but it doesn't help anyone compile games on iOS or any of the other platforms with fast growing adoption. I'm aware of just a few of the many hurdles in the way of decent cross platform accessibility, but will probably pop a vote down on this just in case it meets a receptive developer and something however small improves about the gaming experience on iOS or Mac. Just some thoughts... Scott On 7/1/15, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dennis. I don't have enough knolidge of unity one way or the other, however I will say audiogames have been developed with it previously. Firstlyy, extant by the creative heroes tame who run audiogames.net, it's still a beta but has a rather unique design for an fps game, sinse it's completely spherical with no walls anywhere: http://creativehero.es/Extant Then, there is a game called the blind swordsman developed for the sampsung vr headset, (no not the same one developed by Evildog games that has a page on the db, a different game of the same name): http://vrjam.challengepost.com/submissions/36270-blind-swordsman Of course, how much mangling of the engine was required to create these I do not know, whether they had to for example place graphically invisible objects and then tie audio sound sources to them or some other shenanigans, but it's obviously possible to create audiogames with the thing some how, and (judging by Extant), games that handle full 360 degree movement and sound source tracking. Of course, both of these are pretty experimental short affairs too rather than being extremely major game projects that have spawned highly successful titles, (I actually do wish Sander and Richard would develop extant some more it's a rather unique system), and whether this is because developing audio in unity is more of a pain than it would be without I'm not sure. Beware the grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Please guys, support the project to make Unity Accessible. Put your Vote to this feedback: http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/screen-reader-accessibility More Votes, more visibility to Unity Developers. Thomas, in one of your last posts you wrote that people usually say only what they want, and they do nothing for that. This is a first simple ste. Thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I want to vote but it is not letting me create an account. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 7/1/2015 9:37 AM, Daniele Casarola wrote: Please guys, support the project to make Unity Accessible. Put your Vote to this feedback: http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/screen-reader-accessibility More Votes, more visibility to Unity Developers. Thomas, in one of your last posts you wrote that people usually say only what they want, and they do nothing for that. This is a first simple ste. Thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
It should be quite easy, at this address: https://accounts.unity3d.com/sign-up Maybe they have some problems, try later if you can. Please share the feedback link to other could interest to. There's no other way to ask Unity Developers for this feature. Thank you man. 2015-07-01 16:19 GMT+02:00 Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com: I want to vote but it is not letting me create an account. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 7/1/2015 9:37 AM, Daniele Casarola wrote: Please guys, support the project to make Unity Accessible. Put your Vote to this feedback: http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/screen-reader-accessibility More Votes, more visibility to Unity Developers. Thomas, in one of your last posts you wrote that people usually say only what they want, and they do nothing for that. This is a first simple ste. Thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Daniele , \ While I understand you personally and a few others would like to see Unity become accessible I personally do not see a need. As a fully qualified programmer myself I'm not in a position to require or desire such a tool. So probably won't be adding my name to the feedback to encourage the developers to make it accessible since Unity accessible wouldn't effect me either way. I personally am of the opinion if one wants to develop accessible games he or she is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity. Cheers! On 7/1/15, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: Please guys, support the project to make Unity Accessible. Put your Vote to this feedback: http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/screen-reader-accessibility More Votes, more visibility to Unity Developers. Thomas, in one of your last posts you wrote that people usually say only what they want, and they do nothing for that. This is a first simple ste. Thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
the i agree checkbox was not accessible i had to have my son click it for me. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 7/1/2015 10:28 AM, Daniele Casarola wrote: It should be quite easy, at this address: https://accounts.unity3d.com/sign-up Maybe they have some problems, try later if you can. Please share the feedback link to other could interest to. There's no other way to ask Unity Developers for this feature. Thank you man. 2015-07-01 16:19 GMT+02:00 Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com: I want to vote but it is not letting me create an account. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 7/1/2015 9:37 AM, Daniele Casarola wrote: Please guys, support the project to make Unity Accessible. Put your Vote to this feedback: http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/screen-reader-accessibility More Votes, more visibility to Unity Developers. Thomas, in one of your last posts you wrote that people usually say only what they want, and they do nothing for that. This is a first simple ste. Thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I agree Dark, and I'd never say you couldn't do it. Rather, my whole thrust was that if you're going to spend the time on it, it would be best to use tools designed for that purpose, and target the games at the people likely to be playing them. Again, while it's completely possible to attach a backhoe to a bicycle, there's a reason you don't see very many of them in the real world. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 11:31 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Dennis. I don't have enough knolidge of unity one way or the other, however I will say audiogames have been developed with it previously. Firstlyy, extant by the creative heroes tame who run audiogames.net, it's still a beta but has a rather unique design for an fps game, sinse it's completely spherical with no walls anywhere: http://creativehero.es/Extant Then, there is a game called the blind swordsman developed for the sampsung vr headset, (no not the same one developed by Evildog games that has a page on the db, a different game of the same name): http://vrjam.challengepost.com/submissions/36270-blind-swordsman Of course, how much mangling of the engine was required to create these I do not know, whether they had to for example place graphically invisible objects and then tie audio sound sources to them or some other shenanigans, but it's obviously possible to create audiogames with the thing some how, and (judging by Extant), games that handle full 360 degree movement and sound source tracking. Of course, both of these are pretty experimental short affairs too rather than being extremely major game projects that have spawned highly successful titles, (I actually do wish Sander and Richard would develop extant some more it's a rather unique system), and whether this is because developing audio in unity is more of a pain than it would be without I'm not sure. Beware the grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Excellent points there. Focus your powers and prepare for buttle. -Original Message- From: Dennis Towne Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 11:53 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Thanks, Dennis. Yes, I agree. It is not that I am outright apposed to making Unity accessible so much as I am very doubtful to what extent that accessibility would really help. We are talking about two completely different concepts. Unity was designed to create highly graphical visual games, and what a blind person needs is highly specialized audio based games. I have always felt that specialized languages and tools are better suited to making specialized software because the developer is not trying to tack accessibility onto something that was never designed for that purpose in the first place. That is why for the most part I have designed my own engine and some tools for game development. I have done well for myself, got what I wanted, and I don't have to mess around with pleading with some developer to make their tools accessible to me. Plus I have the advantages of owning the source code to same so can upgrade, change, or fix anything that needs done without having to file a bug report or feature request with some other developer. I suppose that just comes from a sense of independence and choice that some people do not have. Cheers! On 7/1/15, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
As a programmer, I have to agree with Thomas, and I won't be signing it either. The biggest reason I have is that Unity is primarily a graphical development engine. Sure, it has a lot of infrastructure, and sure there's a lot of utility in there - but fundamentally, it's designed for and used by game developers to make highly graphical, visual games for which there can be no little to no accessibility. Making menus and other such things accessible is utterly unhelpful if the vast bulk of the games go into full screen rendered graphics immediately afterward. Also as Thomas said, specialized tools are really the 'correct' thing to do here. Much like you wouldn't try to tack a backhoe or crane onto a bicycle, we shouldn't be trying to tack on accessibility support to a product designed from the ground up to develop graphical software. Things like BGT are exceptionally good development tools, and I'm truly surprised it isn't used more by audio game devs. I know the community here is all about equality and 'just being able to play the same games that sighted people can' - but I really feel that's not only the wrong focus, but counterproductive. My years of running AA have shown me that the best sighted interface is almost completely unusable to the blind, and the best blind interface is almost completely unusable to the sighted. This is not a bug; this is a feature. Blind games should be and have to be optimized for the blind, because the blind interact with the game in a fundamentally different way than the sighted. Very few games are going to be able to provide both interfaces in a meaningful fashion. We should focus on games that are awesome for the blind because they were designed with the blind in mind, instead of trying to force developers to tack on token support that won't help anyone anyway. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
If the game were on mac or iOS, in-app purchases could be good for expanding the game, and giving the dev a reason to. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 13, 2015, at 1:03 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mohsin , Honestly most of our games seem more on par with mainstream games from 20 years ago rather than 10 to 15 years ago. I'd say comparing our games to Sega, Nintendo, or any other games from 10 to 15 years ago is pretty conservative as I happen to own a number of console games from 2000 to 2005 and a lot of them are far superior to any audio game I know of in terms of audio, graphics, game play, etc. So the question at hand is what to do about it. It is all well and good to plead for better and more advanced audio games. It is even alright to encourage our developers to build better and more complex games. However, until certain issues have practical solutions the audio games industry isn't going anywhere. First, is finances. Our audio game developers are not multi-million dollar companies with lots of money to pay out on royalties for sounds, music, and top notch acting. So one way you can accomplish your goal of better audio games is by helping us find ways to finance our game development. People have tried kickstarter and crowd funding with mixed success. Others have tried taking preorders and not managed to raise the funds they really needed. There are ways of razing money but so far none of the usual ways were too successful at sponsoring an audio game for such a limited market as ours. Second, time it takes to develop a very complex game. Now, obviously if more advanced game engines like Unity were accessible that would drastically cut down the time and effort it takes to create an audio game, but the fact of the matter is such an engine does not exist for audio game developers. Most have to put blood sweat and tears into a creation even with a tool like BGT making it a long and drawn out process to put together a simple side-scroller like Q9 let alone something as complex as Call of Duty, Assassin Creed, or Mass Effect. Until we have a method and means of creating bigger and complex games without taking years to create a game I don't see anyone really doing so. Its not that they don't want to, but that the method and means just isn't there. The problem comes back to time management. If we have a five year period is it better for a developer to spend that entire five year period developing one massively complex game or perhaps writing five smaller arcade games. Those desiring a bigger more complex game would ask that he or she spend the time on a bigger and better game, but it might be more beneficial for the community as a whole to have five smaller and less complex games. Then, there is the issue of the money. If a developer is a commercial developer he or she will make more money off five or six smaller games than he or she will ever make off of one big complex game. The financial returns on an Assassin Creed or Call of Duty just isn't there because there aren't enough blind gamers out there to support such a game financially. In summary what I am hearing from threads like this is a lot of I wants. How about some solid and constructive ideas to resolve the difficulties of developing such a game and we will see if it is possible. Cheers! On 6/12/15, Mohsin Ali sma...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Thomas! yes, all of your points are valid and I agree completely with them, however, we must find a way to evolve because, if you see the present level of audio games, then you will find that they are equelant to those of sega or Nintendo systems 10 or 15 years ago. as an audio gamer my self, I want more games which have better audio and have a large setting of missions and story etc. I know that our lovely developers are sweating blood while making all of the present games but , you know, when I hear the quality and story of normal games like assassin creed, hitman, age of empire, empire earth, call of duty , mass effect, strong hold crusader, grand theft auto, EA sports, EA games SIMS. and many many more, then I feel very much left out. again I know that we are too much scattered all over the globe to sit together and develop games but, I want somebody to come forward and start leading this campaign. I myself am not a proper programmer or I would have taken this initial step. at the end I'd like to plead that guys! please , please think about it, and try to find a way to do it. that's all we ask. salute to all of the programmers and developers. cheers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Well guess what guys. We can either make our own, or make those that are already made accessible, sort of like the mario the audio edition. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2015, at 1:33 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it might not be marketable outside of a handful of enthusiasts our own age. There is a way to offset both of those problems and that is to create games that can directly be sold in the mainstream market as indie games. The problem there is the game developer will have to compete with other indie games of similar quality by hiring a graphics designer, learn how to do proper graphics animation, and will involve more time and overhead in adding lots of visual effects that won't aid the audio games community. Thus potentially distracting the developer from other concerns. Bottom line, I see where you are coming from. A lot of younger blind people have this dream of having accessible audio games equivalent to the mainstream games they know and love, but as you can hopefully see it is not that simple. There are an entire host of issues unresolved in terms of marketing, of developing games for the right age group, and so forth that need to be discussed. Programming the game we want is only half the story because after some developer does it he or she still needs to find a way to market it to the community at large and find like minded gamers in the right age group. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Mohsin Ali sma...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, I see your point now, yes, you are right on both accounts, and I agree that those are all valid reasons. but, you cant fault a man for hoping of better future. we all must put some effort to accomplish this task. although, I am studying history, but I did my intermediate in computer science, and am trying to make the heads and
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Daniele, Upon re reading your message I must confess I don't really understand what you are after and what it is specifically about Unity that is so great. You mentioned if I knew Unity, its community, its assets store, etc that I wouldn't say what I did. Well, I'm here to confess I know little about those things, and that is why I am left a bit curious as to what it is about Unity you feel so strongly will aid the audio games community. I am getting the impression by the tone of your messages you believe if Unity were accessible that it would bring in some new and possibly spectacular games for the blind, and I'm frankly skeptical about such a view. However, rather than put words in your mouth that you did not say or intend let me simply ask what it is about Unity, its community, its assets store, etc that makes it the tool of tools for blind game developers above all others? I'm asking this as someone who has been to an accredited state college, took computer science courses, and am skilled with languages such as C, C++, Python, Java, Visual Basic, etc so am having difficulties seeing how a tool like Unity, assuming it were accessible, would be better than what I know and use for my own games and other projects. Although, I have not released all of my games to this particular community I do know how to develop decent games in the languages and tools mentioned above, and am curious if Unity were truly accessible what you expect I could do with it that I could not do with a standard programming language and tools. Point being if I were to join your cause in requesting that Unity become accessible what could I do with it that would be better or superior to what I already use? To get to the point. I have seen a number of posts from you extolling that Unity is so great, so wonderful, and seem to be indicating that we need this tool to be accessible for audio games to grow and continue. That may or may not be your intent, but if you are of the opinion Unity is necessary I want to know why. Why is Unity so great, so wonderful, and so vital for audio game developers? Cheers! On 7/1/15, Daniele Casarola casaroladani...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry Thomas to read your words, above all after reading in this list about the real big lack between video games and audio games development. Someone who knows indeed Unity, its community, its asset store and its potentially wouldn't say something like that. In truth I don't believe you understand me personally and few others: we both know that even if tomorrow morning Votes number will be 10.000, the process to the final target is long, complex and unsure; it is not for my career or that of few others, it is a way of thinking in the long run. I appreciate your opinion of experience when you say is better off working with a fully qualified programming language and tools rather than a third-party engine like Unity., but one method doesn't exclude the other one, rather... In any case I'm glad I have the opportunity to expose this First-Step-Project in this list. Thank you. Daniele. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I would like 2000 per week it would sertainly make life a lot easier grin Right now, a whole lot of little internal life dramas not just for me but the entire family mean we actually are a bit full up cash is the least of those but yeah we all wouldn't mind even more cash. I have just listened to a news article that told of a guy in some large city organisation that earned a lot of cash and stole more because he recond he wasn't being payed his share so yeah everyone seems to want more than they have On 25/06/2015 1:49 a.m., Thomas Ward wrote: Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I'd say $200 per week sounds a lot more like what a blind person on government benefits makes per week on average in most countries. Although, I'm sure we all would like it if we got $2,000 per week. Then, we'd be sitting pretty comfortable. LOL. Cheers! On 6/22/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: it was a typo. This keyboard has seen better days. its 200 dollars new zealand ones. This board is used for everything from games to blogs. I used to have an external but one of the systems here got a flat wireless and the user hasn't fixed his, pluss with all the crazyness going on I just havn't got round to get it back. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
it was a typo. This keyboard has seen better days. its 200 dollars new zealand ones. This board is used for everything from games to blogs. I used to have an external but one of the systems here got a flat wireless and the user hasn't fixed his, pluss with all the crazyness going on I just havn't got round to get it back. At 10:27 a.m. 22/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Valiant, It must be a typo or Shaun is not talking about U.S. dollars. You are right $2,200 per week would be a lot of money and just one weeks paycheck would be enough to live comfortably for a month let alone getting that on a weekly basis assuming of course the person was living in a relatively low income area. So I'd have to say he was probably meaning to say $220 not $2,200. Cheers! On 6/21/15, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Lol is 2200 a typo? Here in the US, you can do a lot with 2200 dollars if you live in the right place. That lasts our 3 person family a whole month though just barely and we have a new four wheel drive truck with a 6 leter v8 gas guzzling engine, a pretty fancy car, a new comfortable home that we own, not rent, and we use natural gas for heat, electricity for cooling and whatnot. Granted, we built the house ourselves, but still. Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 31.3.0 portable --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I'd say $200 per week sounds a lot more like what a blind person on government benefits makes per week on average in most countries. Although, I'm sure we all would like it if we got $2,000 per week. Then, we'd be sitting pretty comfortable. LOL. Cheers! On 6/22/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: it was a typo. This keyboard has seen better days. its 200 dollars new zealand ones. This board is used for everything from games to blogs. I used to have an external but one of the systems here got a flat wireless and the user hasn't fixed his, pluss with all the crazyness going on I just havn't got round to get it back. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi all. I skipped a good chunk of this, so I'm sort of coming in blind, as it were, to the last parts of the debate. First of all, one of the biggest things to hit the internet has been social media. I'm talking Twitter, Facebook, Youtube. We need to advertise there, and we need to stop talking about games for the blind. That was in quotes. Papa Sangre, Audio Defense, etc. don't market themselves as games for the blind. They market themselves as audiogames. Yes, the distinction is small, but it is tremendously important. Frankly, blindness scares a good chunk of the sighted population. They feel they can't relate to a blind person, so why would they want to play a game for the blind. (Not trying to nag, but that has been my argument about a lot of the entries on audiogames.net. It's more like BlindGames.net.) Anyway, the second part of the contribution I'd like to make is this. It's really easy to want to do everything oneself. It's someone's dream that gets games off the ground. Someone's idea that gets put into all the work. That's why I was so pleased with Aprone and Jason Alan, because they actively wanted community feedback throughout the process of game creation. I can personally point to several examples of suggestions I made that got into both Entombed and Swamp. That kind of flexibility is necessary in a larger project. If there were to be a larger project, there would be conflicts and clashing. The person in charge would have to be able to deal with that, because nobody really has thus far. Also, we now have the technology to minimize equipment differences and environmental difficulties with volunteers recording their voices. So if someone wanted to get a project up in the air, and if someone wanted to get volunteers, it would be less difficult. Please allow me to illustrate. I sent an e-mail, I think, about two years ago to Jean-Leuc Pontico and Jeremy Kaldobsky. I had judged the creations they had made and their level of skill necessary to the project I set forth. I wanted them to make a highly scaled back indie game on similar lines to the Sims franchise. I knew it could be done, because the iPhone app store has many examples of indie life sim games. I gave them possible interfaces. I gave them ideas of variable management. I gave them, in short, a project outline. Neither of the two could take the project at the time, so it didn't get done, what with my very limited programming skills not being up to the challenge. However, let's say that there was a tremendous positive response to my idea on-list. I would immediately set up a request for developers willing to take up the challenge. I would try to figure out what skills they had in common, so as to pull the most people with appropriate skills. I would set up a crowd-funding campaign with similar layout to the Entombed funding campaign I mapped out on that list, if anyone saw that. It would involve multiple funding levels, each with appropriate compensation. Given that the game would be a life simulation, most of what we need would, sound wise, would already be available with a little time and patience. In order to maximize continuity with possible other sound sources, all recording would be done with iPhones. I would help with UI design, the hardest part of most complex projects, so I'm told. I could also step in to help people manage possible difficulties they had in making something work. I would act as that project manager people have said is lacking. When the game was complete, it would be sold, not as a game for the blind but as an audiogame, or maybe simply as a non-graphical game. I would have trailors on Youtube. I'd try to get big name game reviewers (Pewtie pie, Total Biscuit, etc.) to give the thing a chance, thus generating publicity. I'd get as many smaller reviewers as I could to do the same, and I'd post the game on social media accounts as well. I'm not saying the dev team would be able to move to the Bahamas or anything, but I think that we might make something off the thing at least. My point in elaborating so heavily on that potential project is this. It can be done. It's not impossible. Frankly, it's not even that difficult, with some division of labor. I just need people to tell me they're interested in helping and what skills they possess. We hold ourselves back simply by not moving forward. On 6/19/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: yes and my longtime favorites will always be jim kitchen's games, especially football and baseball. those are my favorites and now with talking dosbox i can play both versions of his games with ASAP talking through NVDA! follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/17/2015 2:06 AM, shaun everiss wrote: Maybe josh, I have misgivings on blind organisations taking a serious look at gaming in general over educational card and board though. Its about all they are interested in. I had a project I was going to do with schools on a old unused laptop, but suddenly it fell
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I agree they were the first games I started with back in dos. The others I like are the richard desteno games especially since a lot of them are windows console apps. At 02:40 a.m. 20/06/2015, you wrote: yes and my longtime favorites will always be jim kitchen's games, especially football and baseball. those are my favorites and now with talking dosbox i can play both versions of his games with ASAP talking through NVDA! follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/17/2015 2:06 AM, shaun everiss wrote: Maybe josh, I have misgivings on blind organisations taking a serious look at gaming in general over educational card and board though. Its about all they are interested in. I had a project I was going to do with schools on a old unused laptop, but suddenly it fell through. Then there are those that get games that don't necessarily portray what the gaming industry is now yet they are marketed as what the blind play and always play. In an extreme example if I was told that all blind and disabled people were poor helpless and stupid I'd probably believe them. In gaming terms if I was told that board games were all we could ever play and didn't get the net or other ways or was to scared to look at other ways I'd probably believe that to. My point I don't trust some of these organisations, they have their own agendas and interests. At least I think they must. I know there are big game developer conferences but the point is there are so many potential developers. The fact with tech and such getting better and better means things are not as dyre as it once was but even so. At 02:16 a.m. 16/06/2015, you wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/15/2015 2:33 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
yes I agree. At 06:18 p.m. 19/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Well, I'd say it all depends on the blind organization in question. Certainly they each have their own motives and agendas for doing what they do, and it sounds like based on things Dark has said about the RNIB they precisely have the attitude you describe in your message. However, the same can't be said for all blindness organizations around the world. I of course can't speak to those in your home country, but here in the USA blindness organizations are geared for job and employment training therefore have a business outlook on blindness related matters. They often times don't have interest in games and other entertainment because it is all secondary to getting their clients trained and helped into getting out on their own and getting gainfully employed. Playing games has nothing to do with navigating the job market so doesn't get much attention from organizations. Cheers! On 6/17/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe josh, I have misgivings on blind organisations taking a serious look at gaming in general over educational card and board though. Its about all they are interested in. I had a project I was going to do with schools on a old unused laptop, but suddenly it fell through. Then there are those that get games that don't necessarily portray what the gaming industry is now yet they are marketed as what the blind play and always play. In an extreme example if I was told that all blind and disabled people were poor helpless and stupid I'd probably believe them. In gaming terms if I was told that board games were all we could ever play and didn't get the net or other ways or was to scared to look at other ways I'd probably believe that to. My point I don't trust some of these organisations, they have their own agendas and interests. At least I think they must. I know there are big game developer conferences but the point is there are so many potential developers. The fact with tech and such getting better and better means things are not as dyre as it once was but even so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
hmmm interesting. Sometimes I am able to get a lot done sometimes well. I think its in the family we are all easily distracted. So maybe I have a bit of what you mentioned wouldn't surprise me. At 06:03 p.m. 19/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Shaun, It sounds to me you are describing attention deficit disorder better known as A.D.D. In order to program anything let alone games you have to be able to sit down and spend more time than 30 minutes on it without becoming distracted. If you can't stay focused on a project more than 30 minutes there is no way you will ever get anything productive done. There were days at the height of game development where I sat down and worked for four hours straight without taking a break. Granted that was before my personal health issues came up, but the point here is that programming games and other software requires quite a commitment above and beyond five minutes here and there when a person feels like it. Cheers! On 6/17/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: wow been out of touch lately playing ironic renpy gamebooks. Anyway I agree with everything you have said up to this point. I tried to program but I never got that far never had the patience to stick with actual code nore the wish to write programs. While I can write stories in my head writing it down is impossible I never can get everything or if I do it its way to short or I forget and have a mindlock. Testing and sounds are my strong point though sound recorder and shoving sfx together is as far as I have needed to go. I have done some voice scripts but to be honest my hardware is budget and I have neither the cash or space more importantly space to store or use the more expensive stuff pluss my environment is just not cut out for that sort of thing. I have also the lazyness issue where I tend to comit to stuff then suddenly get distracted or burn out for no reason what so ever. Then I stress that if I have something I need to do that I won't get it in on time etc. Saying that the stuff I do do I try to do the best I can. However I have never been able to work for more than 30 minutes at a time even less and I have to be in a mood to even do things. This mood can change depending on what the computer is doing or if something is on my plate to do or if I am completely relaxed. Sometimes I get to a point where I feel I can string things together and make something sometimes I get there sometimes I don't. Eventually though shortly before I am even done reality comes back to hit me again and I wander what I started and kill it till the next time. I find it hard to stick to some tasks long term or if something is to hard or needs concentration over a sertain point I find it easier to put it off for ever so yeah to be a developer is hard work and as far as I care you devs are cool an do good things. I don't know if I will get to that stage I may do some day who knows. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Valiant, It must be a typo or Shaun is not talking about U.S. dollars. You are right $2,200 per week would be a lot of money and just one weeks paycheck would be enough to live comfortably for a month let alone getting that on a weekly basis assuming of course the person was living in a relatively low income area. So I'd have to say he was probably meaning to say $220 not $2,200. Cheers! On 6/21/15, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Lol is 2200 a typo? Here in the US, you can do a lot with 2200 dollars if you live in the right place. That lasts our 3 person family a whole month though just barely and we have a new four wheel drive truck with a 6 leter v8 gas guzzling engine, a pretty fancy car, a new comfortable home that we own, not rent, and we use natural gas for heat, electricity for cooling and whatnot. Granted, we built the house ourselves, but still. Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 31.3.0 portable --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi. Lol is 2200 a typo? Here in the US, you can do a lot with 2200 dollars if you live in the right place. That lasts our 3 person family a whole month though just barely and we have a new four wheel drive truck with a 6 leter v8 gas guzzling engine, a pretty fancy car, a new comfortable home that we own, not rent, and we use natural gas for heat, electricity for cooling and whatnot. Granted, we built the house ourselves, but still. Cheers, Sent with Thunderbird 31.3.0 portable On 6/17/2015 2:09 AM, shaun everiss wrote: And thats another point I can agree on. While I may spend a bit on games and other stuff realisticly if I lost my living at home situation I doubt I could even afford the net now or even a game. I get payed around 2200 dollars a week. take 50 for rent maybe 100 for food and a few other things and I am allready out of cash and rent costs more than 50 dollars so allready I have no cash at all. I myself am not a traveler I would need someone to travel with. At 02:33 a.m. 16/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Shaun, It sounds to me you are describing attention deficit disorder better known as A.D.D. In order to program anything let alone games you have to be able to sit down and spend more time than 30 minutes on it without becoming distracted. If you can't stay focused on a project more than 30 minutes there is no way you will ever get anything productive done. There were days at the height of game development where I sat down and worked for four hours straight without taking a break. Granted that was before my personal health issues came up, but the point here is that programming games and other software requires quite a commitment above and beyond five minutes here and there when a person feels like it. Cheers! On 6/17/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: wow been out of touch lately playing ironic renpy gamebooks. Anyway I agree with everything you have said up to this point. I tried to program but I never got that far never had the patience to stick with actual code nore the wish to write programs. While I can write stories in my head writing it down is impossible I never can get everything or if I do it its way to short or I forget and have a mindlock. Testing and sounds are my strong point though sound recorder and shoving sfx together is as far as I have needed to go. I have done some voice scripts but to be honest my hardware is budget and I have neither the cash or space more importantly space to store or use the more expensive stuff pluss my environment is just not cut out for that sort of thing. I have also the lazyness issue where I tend to comit to stuff then suddenly get distracted or burn out for no reason what so ever. Then I stress that if I have something I need to do that I won't get it in on time etc. Saying that the stuff I do do I try to do the best I can. However I have never been able to work for more than 30 minutes at a time even less and I have to be in a mood to even do things. This mood can change depending on what the computer is doing or if something is on my plate to do or if I am completely relaxed. Sometimes I get to a point where I feel I can string things together and make something sometimes I get there sometimes I don't. Eventually though shortly before I am even done reality comes back to hit me again and I wander what I started and kill it till the next time. I find it hard to stick to some tasks long term or if something is to hard or needs concentration over a sertain point I find it easier to put it off for ever so yeah to be a developer is hard work and as far as I care you devs are cool an do good things. I don't know if I will get to that stage I may do some day who knows. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Shaun, Well, I'd say it all depends on the blind organization in question. Certainly they each have their own motives and agendas for doing what they do, and it sounds like based on things Dark has said about the RNIB they precisely have the attitude you describe in your message. However, the same can't be said for all blindness organizations around the world. I of course can't speak to those in your home country, but here in the USA blindness organizations are geared for job and employment training therefore have a business outlook on blindness related matters. They often times don't have interest in games and other entertainment because it is all secondary to getting their clients trained and helped into getting out on their own and getting gainfully employed. Playing games has nothing to do with navigating the job market so doesn't get much attention from organizations. Cheers! On 6/17/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe josh, I have misgivings on blind organisations taking a serious look at gaming in general over educational card and board though. Its about all they are interested in. I had a project I was going to do with schools on a old unused laptop, but suddenly it fell through. Then there are those that get games that don't necessarily portray what the gaming industry is now yet they are marketed as what the blind play and always play. In an extreme example if I was told that all blind and disabled people were poor helpless and stupid I'd probably believe them. In gaming terms if I was told that board games were all we could ever play and didn't get the net or other ways or was to scared to look at other ways I'd probably believe that to. My point I don't trust some of these organisations, they have their own agendas and interests. At least I think they must. I know there are big game developer conferences but the point is there are so many potential developers. The fact with tech and such getting better and better means things are not as dyre as it once was but even so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
yes and my longtime favorites will always be jim kitchen's games, especially football and baseball. those are my favorites and now with talking dosbox i can play both versions of his games with ASAP talking through NVDA! follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/17/2015 2:06 AM, shaun everiss wrote: Maybe josh, I have misgivings on blind organisations taking a serious look at gaming in general over educational card and board though. Its about all they are interested in. I had a project I was going to do with schools on a old unused laptop, but suddenly it fell through. Then there are those that get games that don't necessarily portray what the gaming industry is now yet they are marketed as what the blind play and always play. In an extreme example if I was told that all blind and disabled people were poor helpless and stupid I'd probably believe them. In gaming terms if I was told that board games were all we could ever play and didn't get the net or other ways or was to scared to look at other ways I'd probably believe that to. My point I don't trust some of these organisations, they have their own agendas and interests. At least I think they must. I know there are big game developer conferences but the point is there are so many potential developers. The fact with tech and such getting better and better means things are not as dyre as it once was but even so. At 02:16 a.m. 16/06/2015, you wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/15/2015 2:33 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it might not be marketable outside of a handful of enthusiasts our own age. There is a way to offset both of those problems and that is to create games that can directly be sold in the mainstream market as
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
True thats another way its an extra cost but if it works for you maybe. At 03:28 a.m. 16/06/2015, you wrote: An alternative is to set up contacts with resellers around the world who go to the conventions already but often they take commission. On 15 Jun 2015, at 16:17, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover certain geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to send someone the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it. I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach. As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I discovered through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the green dragon and ashes of angels. I found out about those thanks to a small one line paragraph in the rnib braille advertising leaflet with the silly name of welcome to a world of I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it does make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, particularly for people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only just learning their way around computers. I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general audiogames introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at least to sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated in braille and large print as well as electronically, and then sending copies of that! to various organizations, conventions etc, for people to pick up, find on a desk etc. such a thing could even be translated into different languages as well. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Maybe josh, I have misgivings on blind organisations taking a serious look at gaming in general over educational card and board though. Its about all they are interested in. I had a project I was going to do with schools on a old unused laptop, but suddenly it fell through. Then there are those that get games that don't necessarily portray what the gaming industry is now yet they are marketed as what the blind play and always play. In an extreme example if I was told that all blind and disabled people were poor helpless and stupid I'd probably believe them. In gaming terms if I was told that board games were all we could ever play and didn't get the net or other ways or was to scared to look at other ways I'd probably believe that to. My point I don't trust some of these organisations, they have their own agendas and interests. At least I think they must. I know there are big game developer conferences but the point is there are so many potential developers. The fact with tech and such getting better and better means things are not as dyre as it once was but even so. At 02:16 a.m. 16/06/2015, you wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/15/2015 2:33 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it might not be marketable outside of a handful of enthusiasts our own age. There is a way to offset both of those problems and that is to create games that can directly be sold in the mainstream market as indie games. The problem there is the game developer will have to compete with other indie games of similar quality by hiring a graphics designer, learn how to do proper graphics animation, and will involve more time and overhead in adding lots of visual effects that won't aid the audio games community.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
And thats another point I can agree on. While I may spend a bit on games and other stuff realisticly if I lost my living at home situation I doubt I could even afford the net now or even a game. I get payed around 2200 dollars a week. take 50 for rent maybe 100 for food and a few other things and I am allready out of cash and rent costs more than 50 dollars so allready I have no cash at all. I myself am not a traveler I would need someone to travel with. At 02:33 a.m. 16/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
wow been out of touch lately playing ironic renpy gamebooks. Anyway I agree with everything you have said up to this point. I tried to program but I never got that far never had the patience to stick with actual code nore the wish to write programs. While I can write stories in my head writing it down is impossible I never can get everything or if I do it its way to short or I forget and have a mindlock. Testing and sounds are my strong point though sound recorder and shoving sfx together is as far as I have needed to go. I have done some voice scripts but to be honest my hardware is budget and I have neither the cash or space more importantly space to store or use the more expensive stuff pluss my environment is just not cut out for that sort of thing. I have also the lazyness issue where I tend to comit to stuff then suddenly get distracted or burn out for no reason what so ever. Then I stress that if I have something I need to do that I won't get it in on time etc. Saying that the stuff I do do I try to do the best I can. However I have never been able to work for more than 30 minutes at a time even less and I have to be in a mood to even do things. This mood can change depending on what the computer is doing or if something is on my plate to do or if I am completely relaxed. Sometimes I get to a point where I feel I can string things together and make something sometimes I get there sometimes I don't. Eventually though shortly before I am even done reality comes back to hit me again and I wander what I started and kill it till the next time. I find it hard to stick to some tasks long term or if something is to hard or needs concentration over a sertain point I find it easier to put it off for ever so yeah to be a developer is hard work and as far as I care you devs are cool an do good things. I don't know if I will get to that stage I may do some day who knows. At 06:33 p.m. 15/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Well there are those i mentioned before that start biting off more than they can chew with dreams of making it big. Sometimes they keep up steam but most times they just stop. I have already put this up before so I won't do it again. Some people think they can jump in to the deepend and expect to swim immediately. At 06:43 p.m. 15/06/2015, you wrote: Hi John, True. However, I have known my fair share of game developers, myself included, who have asked for volunteers and there is an initial wave of people beating down the door wanting to help. Then, after a couple of weeks or so they all drift away and lose interest in the project and no longer want to help out. So that could be one reason developers don't seem to be asking for help. It is no fun to ask for help only to have all the potential volunteers walk away two or three weeks into the project. Cheers! On 6/14/15, john jpcarnemo...@gmail.com wrote: My personal opinion goes to the tune of you can't receive that which you don't ask for. Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise appear. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, Yeah, I know what you meant. However, I wanted to specify what types of games would appeal to the blind organizations. Generally educationally specific games would have an appeal to NFB, ACB, AFB, etc because they would have none of the stigma and other issues attached to them making them an ideal choice. The one thing you are not considering is that over the last couple of decades or so many Americans have caught a mental disease called political correctness. In our new politically correct world businesses, organizations, and government agencies are hesitant to adopt things that even smell like trouble. Anything and everything can be considered offensive by somebody and that kind of craziness is ruining America as a country because everybody is aloud to speak their mind, have a right to be heard, even though what they have to say might be absolutely insane. We are in many ways caught up in a culture war where ideas are being battled out in courts and in the news papers and TV over someone's ideas of what the right kind of society we should have. For example, take a simple card game like Blackjack or Poker. A non-Christian might find such a game as harmless entertainment. A Christian fundamentalist might view that game as sinful, evil, and as promoting the evils of gambling. So would take offense if they found such a game on a computer at their local NFB, ACB, or AFB training center. Thus what some might view as harmless entertainment another person might find reason to complain and raise a stink over it. Therefore an organization who doesn't want that kind of hassle would forego all games and not deal with the pressures that go with a bit of controversy. If you think I am stretching things I've known people my ex and I use to go to church with who didn't own a deck of playing cards because they thought card playing was sinful. They had the Microsoft card games like Solitaire, Hearts, etc removed from their computer because they didn't want them around. To a non-Christian like me I found their attitudes towards games a bit crazy, but once you understand the religiosity that runs deep in this country you would understand how passing out games to organizations could be a controversial problem for them just because not all their clients are going to view those games as harmless entertainment. Either they are going to dislike them out of some religious sense of morality, or they may have this attitude that gamers are over grown children. Thus games might not be something organizations will want to per mote unless they are so neutral and generic that they don't offend anyone's sensibilities. As to the stigma of gamers themselves being overgrown kids I think for the most part that attitude is slowly falling off herein the states too. For one thing games haven't remained the same and they are growing up as the gamers have grown up. Back in the 80's games were basically toys. Games like Pac-Man, Centipede, and Frogger were rather childish and if one's definition of games is simple arcade games then yeah they would seem somewhat childish to some adults. However, as I pointed out games have grown up too. We have the horror games like Silent Hill which requires a more mature audience than your typical kid. Silent Hill is in many ways pretty darn disturbing and is designed for an older more mature gamer. Games like Grand Theft Auto also are not designed for kids per se and are for an older age group of gamers. I suspect those with the idea that gamers are lazy social outcasts, nerds, or overgrown kids are people who have no connection with games, are somewhat older people, thus have no idea how much games have changed. All they know is games are just some expensive toys that their children and perhaps grandchildren have not grown out of for some reason. They have not educated themselves on how different gaming is today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I wasn't actually thinking of developers making specifically designed educational games to teach something (although it's obviously good when that happens as with the Looktell voiceover tutorial), just of presenting some of the games we already have as education exercises in pointing out what can be learnt from them. For example, many of the space invaders style audio titles encourage sound memorization and identification, several first person games like shades of doom require the player to learn techniques for navigating space from only audio information, while more recently on the Iphone we're seeing games like audio defense zombie arena that actually require movement in space. And that is not to speak of games that require use of a screen reader's standard functions. As I said, I learnt far more about how to use the internet and all of Supernova's navigation functions through playing online games than I ever did through direct teaching or through trying to use it for
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Funny, I thought jaws was called such after the old dos screen reader flipper, which also gave it's name to the company dolphin who make Hal and Orca on Linux, though I could be entirely wrong. I now want to see a screen reader called giant squid! :D. Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: john jpcarnemo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine JAWS: *Job* Access With Speech. -- From: dark d...@xgam.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 14:39 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Tom. Funny the computers aren't for play attitude sinse to be honest I wouldn't have learnt to use the internet properly or navigate correctly with supernova if it hadn't been for games, ditto with voiceover on the Iphone (indeed I specifically bought games to practice with when i got my Iphone). Then of course there is the more recent arguement that audiogames actually teach valuable skills, hell the blindsquare satnav now gives directional positional audio kews for it's beacons so walking around outside is geting more and more like something like Swamp, nice preparation for when the zombocalypse actually does! happen :D. the Rnib are about the same over here as I've said before, they certainly have an institutional approach, however they're usual line is most blind people aren't interested in that sort of thing which is why they only currently support and promote Azabat sinse it is built to appeal to the sort of people the Rnib see themselves as catering for. I do wonder though if other organizations in the uk would be more receptive such as action for blind people (who had the top ten audiogames a while ago), or possibly even Guide dogs, although their entertainment side has fallen off recently. That's why I'd suggest having some sort of braille brochure though, sinse obviously if it's not out there people won't know. All the best, dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
JAWS: *Job* Access With Speech. -- From: dark d...@xgam.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 14:39 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Tom. Funny the computers aren't for play attitude sinse to be honest I wouldn't have learnt to use the internet properly or navigate correctly with supernova if it hadn't been for games, ditto with voiceover on the Iphone (indeed I specifically bought games to practice with when i got my Iphone). Then of course there is the more recent arguement that audiogames actually teach valuable skills, hell the blindsquare satnav now gives directional positional audio kews for it's beacons so walking around outside is geting more and more like something like Swamp, nice preparation for when the zombocalypse actually does! happen :D. the Rnib are about the same over here as I've said before, they certainly have an institutional approach, however they're usual line is most blind people aren't interested in that sort of thing which is why they only currently support and promote Azabat sinse it is built to appeal to the sort of people the Rnib see themselves as catering for. I do wonder though if other organizations in the uk would be more receptive such as action for blind people (who had the top ten audiogames a while ago), or possibly even Guide dogs, although their entertainment side has fallen off recently. That's why I'd suggest having some sort of braille brochure though, sinse obviously if it's not out there people won't know. All the best, dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. I don't doubt your correct, however there is another side to the coin. christian fundamentalism, and likewise the concern about offending such fudnamentalists is I believe at least in mainstream form something pretty specific to the states. The Rnib for example do as I've said promote the Azabat games (albiet they don't seem interested in promoting any others), which do include several card games like blackjack, and the Rnib sell braille playing cards as well. ? Also, bare in mind what I'm proposing here. I'm not suggesting that organizations actively sell games by blind developers, just that a general informational leaflet can be created detailing some basic information about types of games, some bennifits from playing games with perhaps a couple of exampples and suggestions on where to get more information that organizations could stick on their general additional info table at conventions and the like. ? Yes the leaflet might say that traditional games including card games were available, but simply saying something is available shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or at least I'd not assume so, sinse it's still their choice to get or not. The important thing in such an introduction however which you do bring up is that it mentions the scope of different types of games, so that if someone say was against all possible interpreted game violence or against gambling in the way you describe and wouldn't countenance anything with playing cards, they'd be aware that other games were available. ? For example, in the section describing first person navigation, it would be important to also mention Terraformers as well as games like shades of doom sinse Terraformers is largely a puzzle game and involves little by way of shooting or violence and none against living creatures, neither does it have any horror elements the way shades, swamp, or pappasangre do. ? Beware the grue! ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Josh, You seem to be missing the point. It has nothing to do with what we think of fundamentalists and their opinions but what organizations etc think of them. As a game developer I personally don't give a rats butt about what fundamentalists or anyone else thinks about my games as long as there are people out there who appreciates what I develop for them. If some crackpot religious nut wants to complain about one or more of my games on religious grounds let them. It does not bother me a bit. However, the issue was if a game developer tries to use organizations to help spread the word about their games the organizations in the States may or may not be a little reluctant to do so given the pull the religious right has on politics, public opinion, and everything else in this country. So even though a game developer might not give a rats behind about what the religious right thinks organizations don't necessarily have that luxury. Cheers! On 6/16/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: Why should we be concerned about offending fundamentalists? Their opinions are historically, factually, and scientifically for the most part inacurate. some stuff they got right most is incorrect though. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
yes that's true. guess the best we can do is spread the word or try to spread word in different magazines like blind bargains. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/16/2015 12:07 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Josh, You seem to be missing the point. It has nothing to do with what we think of fundamentalists and their opinions but what organizations etc think of them. As a game developer I personally don't give a rats butt about what fundamentalists or anyone else thinks about my games as long as there are people out there who appreciates what I develop for them. If some crackpot religious nut wants to complain about one or more of my games on religious grounds let them. It does not bother me a bit. However, the issue was if a game developer tries to use organizations to help spread the word about their games the organizations in the States may or may not be a little reluctant to do so given the pull the religious right has on politics, public opinion, and everything else in this country. So even though a game developer might not give a rats behind about what the religious right thinks organizations don't necessarily have that luxury. Cheers! On 6/16/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: Why should we be concerned about offending fundamentalists? Their opinions are historically, factually, and scientifically for the most part inacurate. some stuff they got right most is incorrect though. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
giant squid screen reader would be interesting. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/16/2015 10:07 AM, dark wrote: Funny, I thought jaws was called such after the old dos screen reader flipper, which also gave it's name to the company dolphin who make Hal and Orca on Linux, though I could be entirely wrong. I now want to see a screen reader called giant squid! :D. Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: john jpcarnemo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine JAWS: *Job* Access With Speech. -- From: dark d...@xgam.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 14:39 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Tom. Funny the computers aren't for play attitude sinse to be honest I wouldn't have learnt to use the internet properly or navigate correctly with supernova if it hadn't been for games, ditto with voiceover on the Iphone (indeed I specifically bought games to practice with when i got my Iphone). Then of course there is the more recent arguement that audiogames actually teach valuable skills, hell the blindsquare satnav now gives directional positional audio kews for it's beacons so walking around outside is geting more and more like something like Swamp, nice preparation for when the zombocalypse actually does! happen :D. the Rnib are about the same over here as I've said before, they certainly have an institutional approach, however they're usual line is most blind people aren't interested in that sort of thing which is why they only currently support and promote Azabat sinse it is built to appeal to the sort of people the Rnib see themselves as catering for. I do wonder though if other organizations in the uk would be more receptive such as action for blind people (who had the top ten audiogames a while ago), or possibly even Guide dogs, although their entertainment side has fallen off recently. That's why I'd suggest having some sort of braille brochure though, sinse obviously if it's not out there people won't know. All the best, dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Na, call it Doctor Octopus after Spiderman's nemesis. I think a screen reader named Octopus would be cool. Might as well since there is something distinctly fishy about the screen readers we have like Jaws, Orca, etc. Cheers! On 6/16/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: giant squid screen reader would be interesting. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, You are completely wrong on both counts. Jaws is an acronym which stands for Job Access With Speech. It has nothing to do with the Flipper screen reader although if I hadn't known the true history of Jaws I might have drawn that conclusion myself. As for Orca Dolphin has nothing to do with it. Orca is being developed by in dependant volunteers and I happen to know that the lead developers do not work for Dolphin. So I'm not sure where that misinformation came from, but it is way off base. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Funny, I thought jaws was called such after the old dos screen reader flipper, which also gave it's name to the company dolphin who make Hal and Orca on Linux, though I could be entirely wrong. I now want to see a screen reader called giant squid! :D. Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Why should we be concerned about offending fundamentalists? Their opinions are historically, factually, and scientifically for the most part inacurate. some stuff they got right most is incorrect though. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/16/2015 10:05 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. I don't doubt your correct, however there is another side to the coin. christian fundamentalism, and likewise the concern about offending such fudnamentalists is I believe at least in mainstream form something pretty specific to the states. The Rnib for example do as I've said promote the Azabat games (albiet they don't seem interested in promoting any others), which do include several card games like blackjack, and the Rnib sell braille playing cards as well. ? Also, bare in mind what I'm proposing here. I'm not suggesting that organizations actively sell games by blind developers, just that a general informational leaflet can be created detailing some basic information about types of games, some bennifits from playing games with perhaps a couple of exampples and suggestions on where to get more information that organizations could stick on their general additional info table at conventions and the like. ? Yes the leaflet might say that traditional games including card games were available, but simply saying something is available shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or at least I'd not assume so, sinse it's still their choice to get or not. The important thing in such an introduction however which you do bring up is that it mentions the scope of different types of games, so that if someone say was against all possible interpreted game violence or against gambling in the way you describe and wouldn't countenance anything with playing cards, they'd be aware that other games were available. ? For example, in the section describing first person navigation, it would be important to also mention Terraformers as well as games like shades of doom sinse Terraformers is largely a puzzle game and involves little by way of shooting or violence and none against living creatures, neither does it have any horror elements the way shades, swamp, or pappasangre do. ? Beware the grue! ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
if they don't want to play certain games they don't have to. fundamentalism is something relatively new. If you go back 1500 to 2000 years you will find there was only one christian church. Americans should really study their history and educate themselves on what is true and what is not based on historically and scientifically accurate information and then tie it in with religion to form a reasonable and logically based conclusion based on both faith history science and reason. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/16/2015 10:05 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. I don't doubt your correct, however there is another side to the coin. christian fundamentalism, and likewise the concern about offending such fudnamentalists is I believe at least in mainstream form something pretty specific to the states. The Rnib for example do as I've said promote the Azabat games (albiet they don't seem interested in promoting any others), which do include several card games like blackjack, and the Rnib sell braille playing cards as well. ? Also, bare in mind what I'm proposing here. I'm not suggesting that organizations actively sell games by blind developers, just that a general informational leaflet can be created detailing some basic information about types of games, some bennifits from playing games with perhaps a couple of exampples and suggestions on where to get more information that organizations could stick on their general additional info table at conventions and the like. ? Yes the leaflet might say that traditional games including card games were available, but simply saying something is available shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or at least I'd not assume so, sinse it's still their choice to get or not. The important thing in such an introduction however which you do bring up is that it mentions the scope of different types of games, so that if someone say was against all possible interpreted game violence or against gambling in the way you describe and wouldn't countenance anything with playing cards, they'd be aware that other games were available. ? For example, in the section describing first person navigation, it would be important to also mention Terraformers as well as games like shades of doom sinse Terraformers is largely a puzzle game and involves little by way of shooting or violence and none against living creatures, neither does it have any horror elements the way shades, swamp, or pappasangre do. ? Beware the grue! ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, Point well taken. I am sure a general pamphlet explaining to people what audio games are and where to find more about them such as audiogames.net should not be too offensive to anyone. I guess what I was thinking was a more direct form of advertising such as having a few games installed on their computers in their computer labs or in a req area where people could try the games at their leisure. That of course would involve games that would be okay with the organization and the client which could be troublesome. However, what you are proposing such as a generalized pamphlet shouldn't be to bad. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't doubt your correct, however there is another side to the coin. christian fundamentalism, and likewise the concern about offending such fudnamentalists is I believe at least in mainstream form something pretty specific to the states. The Rnib for example do as I've said promote the Azabat games (albiet they don't seem interested in promoting any others), which do include several card games like blackjack, and the Rnib sell braille playing cards as well. ? Also, bare in mind what I'm proposing here. I'm not suggesting that organizations actively sell games by blind developers, just that a general informational leaflet can be created detailing some basic information about types of games, some bennifits from playing games with perhaps a couple of exampples and suggestions on where to get more information that organizations could stick on their general additional info table at conventions and the like. ? Yes the leaflet might say that traditional games including card games were available, but simply saying something is available shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or at least I'd not assume so, sinse it's still their choice to get or not. The important thing in such an introduction however which you do bring up is that it mentions the scope of different types of games, so that if someone say was against all possible interpreted game violence or against gambling in the way you describe and wouldn't countenance anything with playing cards, they'd be aware that other games were available. ? For example, in the section describing first person navigation, it would be important to also mention Terraformers as well as games like shades of doom sinse Terraformers is largely a puzzle game and involves little by way of shooting or violence and none against living creatures, neither does it have any horror elements the way shades, swamp, or pappasangre do. ? Beware the grue! ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
back 15 years ago at pittsburg vision services they had shades of doom demos and a few others installed on their computers. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/16/2015 12:23 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, Point well taken. I am sure a general pamphlet explaining to people what audio games are and where to find more about them such as audiogames.net should not be too offensive to anyone. I guess what I was thinking was a more direct form of advertising such as having a few games installed on their computers in their computer labs or in a req area where people could try the games at their leisure. That of course would involve games that would be okay with the organization and the client which could be troublesome. However, what you are proposing such as a generalized pamphlet shouldn't be to bad. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't doubt your correct, however there is another side to the coin. christian fundamentalism, and likewise the concern about offending such fudnamentalists is I believe at least in mainstream form something pretty specific to the states. The Rnib for example do as I've said promote the Azabat games (albiet they don't seem interested in promoting any others), which do include several card games like blackjack, and the Rnib sell braille playing cards as well. ? Also, bare in mind what I'm proposing here. I'm not suggesting that organizations actively sell games by blind developers, just that a general informational leaflet can be created detailing some basic information about types of games, some bennifits from playing games with perhaps a couple of exampples and suggestions on where to get more information that organizations could stick on their general additional info table at conventions and the like. ? Yes the leaflet might say that traditional games including card games were available, but simply saying something is available shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or at least I'd not assume so, sinse it's still their choice to get or not. The important thing in such an introduction however which you do bring up is that it mentions the scope of different types of games, so that if someone say was against all possible interpreted game violence or against gambling in the way you describe and wouldn't countenance anything with playing cards, they'd be aware that other games were available. ? For example, in the section describing first person navigation, it would be important to also mention Terraformers as well as games like shades of doom sinse Terraformers is largely a puzzle game and involves little by way of shooting or violence and none against living creatures, neither does it have any horror elements the way shades, swamp, or pappasangre do. ? Beware the grue! ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I believe that's also where Hal the computer got its name. As for JAWS I would have guessed the film from the 1970's about the shark. Focus your powers and prepare for buttle. -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 11:43 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi tom. Ah, rereading my message I see where my phrasing went a bit wrong. what I meant as reggards Dolphin and Orca is that both derived their names from the flipper screen reader, not that Dolphin developed Orca which they obviously do not :D. As for Jaws, I was told that fact by someone from dolphin as well that it's name was also related to flipper so fair enough if I'm incorrect, though I do think it's an amusing coincidence. Btw, hal, the original namefor what is now supernova got it's name not as I originally thought from the computer in 2001 Space odyssey, but because it's one letter down from Ibm. This is a little weerd though sinse dolphin's other two main products at that time were luna, the screen magnifyer and supernova, the combined speech and magnification system, makes me think they should've called Hal stellar or something but there you go :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. Well I wasn't thinking as far as organizations installing demos or the like sinse I'd imagine getting people to do that would be a hassle for a number of reasons. as I said, I was just thinking a sort of general leaflet that people could find and look atwhich was an introduction and overview of games for people who probably had not played games before and were perhaps new to computers as well, particularly sinse as I said I was thinking of such a thing to possibly be produced in braille or large print as well as an online version so that it could be physically distributed around. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, I got you now. Actually, Orca's name isn't derived from Flipper but from Jaws. As I understand it the guy who started the project was a Jaws user so wanted to name his screen reader Jaws or something like it. Since Orca is the name of killer whales he named it Orca in honor of Jaws. By the time Orca began development a few years ago Flipper had long been a thing of the past. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Ah, rereading my message I see where my phrasing went a bit wrong. what I meant as reggards Dolphin and Orca is that both derived their names from the flipper screen reader, not that Dolphin developed Orca which they obviously do not :D. As for Jaws, I was told that fact by someone from dolphin as well that it's name was also related to flipper so fair enough if I'm incorrect, though I do think it's an amusing coincidence. Btw, hal, the original namefor what is now supernova got it's name not as I originally thought from the computer in 2001 Space odyssey, but because it's one letter down from Ibm. This is a little weerd though sinse dolphin's other two main products at that time were luna, the screen magnifyer and supernova, the combined speech and magnification system, makes me think they should've called Hal stellar or something but there you go :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
From my rooting around on the web sites, I think I understand why the various blind organizations don't give games much lip service. It's not so much that they hate games or haven't heard about them; is that they're focused on helping blind people survive and provide for themselves. Specifically, these organizations are focused on helping blind people gain the skills needed to function in society and hopefully find employment. The extremely low employment numbers for the blind are no secret, and it should be no surprise that these orgs are focusing on that very hard problem. Playing games is considered a leisure activity, something you do in your spare time, not something you do to put food on the table. In a lot of ways this makes sense - they're mostly charity organizations, and they're expected to show that they're not wasting the money they're given. It wouldn't look that great for their financial reports to say we helped 1 million blind people learn how to play video games this year!, while the employment numbers for those people remain abysmal. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, I got you now. Actually, Orca's name isn't derived from Flipper but from Jaws. As I understand it the guy who started the project was a Jaws user so wanted to name his screen reader Jaws or something like it. Since Orca is the name of killer whales he named it Orca in honor of Jaws. By the time Orca began development a few years ago Flipper had long been a thing of the past. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Ah, rereading my message I see where my phrasing went a bit wrong. what I meant as reggards Dolphin and Orca is that both derived their names from the flipper screen reader, not that Dolphin developed Orca which they obviously do not :D. As for Jaws, I was told that fact by someone from dolphin as well that it's name was also related to flipper so fair enough if I'm incorrect, though I do think it's an amusing coincidence. Btw, hal, the original namefor what is now supernova got it's name not as I originally thought from the computer in 2001 Space odyssey, but because it's one letter down from Ibm. This is a little weerd though sinse dolphin's other two main products at that time were luna, the screen magnifyer and supernova, the combined speech and magnification system, makes me think they should've called Hal stellar or something but there you go :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi tom. Ah, rereading my message I see where my phrasing went a bit wrong. what I meant as reggards Dolphin and Orca is that both derived their names from the flipper screen reader, not that Dolphin developed Orca which they obviously do not :D. As for Jaws, I was told that fact by someone from dolphin as well that it's name was also related to flipper so fair enough if I'm incorrect, though I do think it's an amusing coincidence. Btw, hal, the original namefor what is now supernova got it's name not as I originally thought from the computer in 2001 Space odyssey, but because it's one letter down from Ibm. This is a little weerd though sinse dolphin's other two main products at that time were luna, the screen magnifyer and supernova, the combined speech and magnification system, makes me think they should've called Hal stellar or something but there you go :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
My thoughts exactly Dennis. Have been trying to express the same thought without sounding NFB nazi. Actually, the NFB convention will be hosting a seminar on accessible gaming this year, but no other information on what the topics will be was posted on the agenda, so I will wait and see what the seminar will be about. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Interesting, though I still do wonder with all the marine names if job access with speech was thought up after the fact and the name is still related to flipper sinse it sounds pretty clunky to me as if it was an acronym matched to an existing name, still I suppose we'll never know. It's a shame Nvda wasn't called octipus, or better still the cracken! (which is also one of my favourite types of rum), unless the Nvda maintainers have been lying to us and it really stands for neptunes very damp arse! :D. Bewar ethe #grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, I got you now. Actually, Orca's name isn't derived from Flipper but from Jaws. As I understand it the guy who started the project was a Jaws user so wanted to name his screen reader Jaws or something like it. Since Orca is the name of killer whales he named it Orca in honor of Jaws. By the time Orca began development a few years ago Flipper had long been a thing of the past. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Ah, rereading my message I see where my phrasing went a bit wrong. what I meant as reggards Dolphin and Orca is that both derived their names from the flipper screen reader, not that Dolphin developed Orca which they obviously do not :D. As for Jaws, I was told that fact by someone from dolphin as well that it's name was also related to flipper so fair enough if I'm incorrect, though I do think it's an amusing coincidence. Btw, hal, the original namefor what is now supernova got it's name not as I originally thought from the computer in 2001 Space odyssey, but because it's one letter down from Ibm. This is a little weerd though sinse dolphin's other two main products at that time were luna, the screen magnifyer and supernova, the combined speech and magnification system, makes me think they should've called Hal stellar or something but there you go :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Not to mention JAWS was probably a lot less of a pain to say than Job Access with Speech. LOL. Focus your powers and prepare for buttle. -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 10:10 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, It is hard to say. Remember Jaws for Dos and Flipper both came out about the same time in the late 80's. I'm not even sure which one came out first since I wasn't blind at the time the screen readers came out, and thus had no reason to be interested in them until years after the fact. What I can tell you though is when I purchased Jaws for Dos in the early90's the tutorials that came with it opened up with a message like welcome to Jaws Job Access With Speech. Thus I always got the impression Henter-Joyce wanted to emphasize Jaws as a tool for work, and the acronym Jaws was simply a side effect of shortening Job Access With Speech to something that could be executed in Dos's 8.3 character restrictions. How much Flipper's name may or may not have influenced the Jaws name I have no idea as Henter-Joyce now Freedom Scientific never said. All I do know for sure is that Jaws was marketed as the screen reader for businesses and blind professionals, and if you wanted a screen reader for work Job Access With Speech was it. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Interesting, though I still do wonder with all the marine names if job access with speech was thought up after the fact and the name is still related to flipper sinse it sounds pretty clunky to me as if it was an acronym matched to an existing name, still I suppose we'll never know. It's a shame Nvda wasn't called octipus, or better still the cracken! (which is also one of my favourite types of rum), unless the Nvda maintainers have been lying to us and it really stands for neptunes very damp arse! :D. Bewar ethe #grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, It is hard to say. Remember Jaws for Dos and Flipper both came out about the same time in the late 80's. I'm not even sure which one came out first since I wasn't blind at the time the screen readers came out, and thus had no reason to be interested in them until years after the fact. What I can tell you though is when I purchased Jaws for Dos in the early90's the tutorials that came with it opened up with a message like welcome to Jaws Job Access With Speech. Thus I always got the impression Henter-Joyce wanted to emphasize Jaws as a tool for work, and the acronym Jaws was simply a side effect of shortening Job Access With Speech to something that could be executed in Dos's 8.3 character restrictions. How much Flipper's name may or may not have influenced the Jaws name I have no idea as Henter-Joyce now Freedom Scientific never said. All I do know for sure is that Jaws was marketed as the screen reader for businesses and blind professionals, and if you wanted a screen reader for work Job Access With Speech was it. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Interesting, though I still do wonder with all the marine names if job access with speech was thought up after the fact and the name is still related to flipper sinse it sounds pretty clunky to me as if it was an acronym matched to an existing name, still I suppose we'll never know. It's a shame Nvda wasn't called octipus, or better still the cracken! (which is also one of my favourite types of rum), unless the Nvda maintainers have been lying to us and it really stands for neptunes very damp arse! :D. Bewar ethe #grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dennis, You are absolutely right, and I guess it was assumed everyone on this list understood the fact that most of these blind organizations exist to help with basic independent living skills as well as employment for clients. As you have surmised the reason they do not pay much attention to games and other forms of entertainment is because they consider it outside of their charters. They are there to provide training for independent living, to help clients find employment, etc. As you said yourself they are focused on helping blind persons function in society and as a result games and other forms of entertainment like it just aren't that important to them. You bring up a good point that as they are there to meet certain needs of the community particularly in the life skills area it wouldn't do for them to say they helped a million blind persons to play games when there entire existence is based on the premise of training and helping them find employment. While they may hand out a pamphlet on games such as Dark was talking about that isn't what they are there for. They would likely consider such a thing as not belonging to their curriculum. Cheers! On 6/16/15, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: From my rooting around on the web sites, I think I understand why the various blind organizations don't give games much lip service. It's not so much that they hate games or haven't heard about them; is that they're focused on helping blind people survive and provide for themselves. Specifically, these organizations are focused on helping blind people gain the skills needed to function in society and hopefully find employment. The extremely low employment numbers for the blind are no secret, and it should be no surprise that these orgs are focusing on that very hard problem. Playing games is considered a leisure activity, something you do in your spare time, not something you do to put food on the table. In a lot of ways this makes sense - they're mostly charity organizations, and they're expected to show that they're not wasting the money they're given. It wouldn't look that great for their financial reports to say we helped 1 million blind people learn how to play video games this year!, while the employment numbers for those people remain abysmal. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, I got you now. Actually, Orca's name isn't derived from Flipper but from Jaws. As I understand it the guy who started the project was a Jaws user so wanted to name his screen reader Jaws or something like it. Since Orca is the name of killer whales he named it Orca in honor of Jaws. By the time Orca began development a few years ago Flipper had long been a thing of the past. Cheers! On 6/16/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Ah, rereading my message I see where my phrasing went a bit wrong. what I meant as reggards Dolphin and Orca is that both derived their names from the flipper screen reader, not that Dolphin developed Orca which they obviously do not :D. As for Jaws, I was told that fact by someone from dolphin as well that it's name was also related to flipper so fair enough if I'm incorrect, though I do think it's an amusing coincidence. Btw, hal, the original namefor what is now supernova got it's name not as I originally thought from the computer in 2001 Space odyssey, but because it's one letter down from Ibm. This is a little weerd though sinse dolphin's other two main products at that time were luna, the screen magnifyer and supernova, the combined speech and magnification system, makes me think they should've called Hal stellar or something but there you go :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, Oh, I definitely can see a point where certain games are used as educational training aids alright. The problem is for a lot of people when someone mentions games they automatically assume it isn't educational and that it is a silly waste of time. Sad to say this attitude isn't limited to blind and VI gamers either. For example, I saw a Youtube video not too long ago from a sighted guy in his mid to late 30's posing the question of why people consider gamers geek's, lazy, or immature because they spend two to three hours each day playing the latest version of Rock Band, Guitar Hero, or Need For Speed while his coworkers would happily sit their butts down on the couch and watch football or basketball. Both forms of entertainment could be considered lazy, unproductive, or childish but in American society it is generally seen adult behavior to while away an afternoon with ESPN and a ball game but not mature or adult to spend that same time with a game console playing games. It is an interesting question and one I think bares particular relevance to the topic at hand. I can easily see various educational and learning games being developed for organizations to help enhance orientation and mobility training, to help with memorization, problem solving, and other things that are all apart of daily life. The main two problems seem to be A, developing those games, and B, then getting past the stigma of games are little more than electronic toys. Even so as it so happens that is probably the best way to present games to the NFB, ACB, AFB, etc. If a game developer could create games they could incorporate into their training programs or get them to install them on their computers for clients that could be a form of advertising to go to the developer's site and see what else they have for offer. That would help keep the organizations image in tact while advertise what the developer has to offer. Cheers! On 6/15/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. There are several topics on the audiogames.net forum where people describe their experiences with the Nfb, and I confess I'm not keen on the immage buseness or the our way or else attitude, although as I've only heard second hand accounts I can't speak for more. With the Rnib, it's more a huuge! bias towards older people, aka people who will leave them money in their will, (don't believe me, I once attended a so called introduction to the rnib day which spent two hours on that very subject). However getting back on topic I could see the arguement of using games as teaching aides to be quite a strong one if put correctly, particularly sinse as I said, we are now getting to the point where many of the things used in games are regular parts of life and the technology we have. For example, if I were newly blind and not used to orientation towards a sound source, playing a game which required this could really! help, especially something like audio defense zombie arena on the Iphone which requires turning in space and pointing the phone the same way you might locate something making a noise in real life. that's quite apart from satnavs or the tech question. beware the grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. I wasn't actually thinking of developers making specifically designed educational games to teach something (although it's obviously good when that happens as with the Looktell voiceover tutorial), just of presenting some of the games we already have as education exercises in pointing out what can be learnt from them. For example, many of the space invaders style audio titles encourage sound memorization and identification, several first person games like shades of doom require the player to learn techniques for navigating space from only audio information, while more recently on the Iphone we're seeing games like audio defense zombie arena that actually require movement in space. And that is not to speak of games that require use of a screen reader's standard functions. As I said, I learnt far more about how to use the internet and all of Supernova's navigation functions through playing online games than I ever did through direct teaching or through trying to use it for work, same goes for Vo on the Iphone. I think that would be a good way to present games to organizations, if their motivation is based on work and efficiency, particularly sinse these days sighted kids will be using the internet, social media and games on computers and learning far more than just what they're taught in Information technology classes in school. As to the stigma of gamers, I'd be interested to see that discussion, sinse while like a lot of group sterriotypes I suspect it's a bit more pronounced in the states than in the Uk the gamer = lazy social outcast belief certainly exists over hear as well and I agree is entirely irrational compared to other interests, then again collective assumptions are rarely rational anyway, (if it were rational I wouldn't refer to it as the collective). In the mainstream world at least this idea of games as toys and gamers as over grown kids is falling off I think, particularly as the gamer generation grows up, although as usual I suspect this is where blindness organizations might be behind the times. Still all the more reason to think of having some sort of word out there. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Well since you are a developer you would know. Never the less you have it right as usual. At 12:26 a.m. 15/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Dark, Yes, I think you have a definite point about developers perhaps not being aware of their own shortcomings. That would include even me at times. I suspect the reason is that a lot of developers get into writing games because they have a very specific idea, dream, or concept for a game. Something that appeals to them and they set out to create the game as they imagine it. Unfortunately, like everyone the developer may have shortcomings that makes the end result less than a quality production, and because it is their dream game, their own idea, they feel a bit embarrassed or even perhaps a bit sensitive about letting someone else help work on it. I can confess to some of that myself. In short it is very easy for a developer to turn down any offers for help out of some personal sense of wanting to do it all themselves. Perhaps not recognizing or seeing their own shortcomings in the process. As a result the final product is something below professional standards just because the developer was lacking in a certain area and was unable to foresee their own shortcomings in that regard. Cheers! On 6/14/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I agree with you dark. There have been a few devs I worked with one just recently that was just a starter. I have nothing against starters but there are those that start in a cocky state, expect to earn from 500 coppies a month and get 2000 or more enough to buy sfx. They start a project get your stuff and then burn shortly after. I had another some years back, he started got all my pictures and other info for the game and other payment things, started off but obviously burned as I never heard back from him with work. In more recent times I have actually seen a few of those in reality software burn. Thing is when someone burns like that they don't recognise they are doing so and you can't tell them that they are on fire. But once they are burned out they die, some just die and some make a drama out of it but once burned in most cases you are prity much done with a few exceptions like rs group leader, how he has managed to survive without completely burning is legendry and sertainly beyond me. I have once or twice got close to burning myself its not a good thing to burn yourself but its hard to not be on a role and then it all comes down on you like a pile of burning stuff. I do think with the critisism and other things that our devs are quite carefull. The rest don't know or have no idea how to start. Sighted especially may know what to do but are not sure how to do it for obvious reasons and the rest who knows. I don't even know what the rest is anymore. With the release of bgt and some of the otheer stuff of late the first companies are not making much anymore. But thats ok as the industry is going on its own pace. But there are so many groups its hard to tell what is or isn't good these days. And sometimes stuff popps out of the woodwork. I just got a couple ren py novels fully accessable one comercial yesterday and another one I really like which the author is working on to make accessable and which I will buy later. Ofcause some can be total wastes but the rest maybe. At 11:31 p.m. 14/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Well tom to be honest vary few devs have actually asked the users for sfx and voice. And when it has happened it can go either of 2 ways. 1. you may have your stuff used and used fully or only used for that version then swapped for something else. Or simply your stuff is used and then used outside the project by others and ending up on some soundlib in one case or so I did stuff. Or simply they will not be used. I can see a few examples where thats happened to me to. However thats not always the case I know realitysoftware will ask for sfx even encourages the practice of sound sharing. Some in the group even buy sounds to share within the group in fact I hear rumors of more sound packs. I have a large order of interface sounds I was schedualed to fill yesterday but will be doing it today. Ofcause its a bonus for the contributer if you get a free game out of it. Its even more gratifying when the thing is a success, is realeased and the dev keeps making sfx giving said contributer more work. Though at the same time once you have a reasonable pool of sounds you souldn't need to rely on contributers all the time. Since the early days of reality software my work has shrunk to small projects from time to time I have to upload 2-6gb sound dumps but that doesn't happen often. And thats good the dumps take space and take ages to upload sometimes it takes me days to sort out required sounds for upload. At 06:24 p.m. 14/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I agree. Your volinteers won't necessarily have the latest software or hardware for the job. I now at least have a good software package maybe but hardware wise probably not so much. I can't afford studio quality s stuff unless its on sale so I have consumers tuff or internal stuff and some of that doesn't cut it. At 12:45 a.m. 15/06/2015, you wrote: Hi dark. There's a couple of factors at play. As has already has been said, game development can take some time and keeping volunteers interested in the medium to long term is quite difficult. Also following through on commitments can be an issue. As an example, when developing Park Boss I asked for volunteers to record short bits of dialog, a number of people contacted me and I sent scripts. That was the last I heard from about a third of the volunteers. Another thing that is a factor is the different recording quality that comes back. This didn't matter too much for Park Boss but in other audio environments could be noticeable and make the game feel disjointed There are a number of things that make managing a team of volunteers harder than employees. Things like wide spread locations, egos and commitment that probably puts developers off. In the end the developers like my self are very much code focussed and managing people takes away from coding time. That's why I think a large scale, volunteer developed game would need someone to act as a project manager who is not the main coder. Just some thoughts. Nick. On 14 Jun 2015, at 12:31, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
yes thats true josh everything is going indie which for us is a good thing. The small guys are approachable at least. Some can't for various reasons be able to make their stuff work but I have noticed some can be especially on the ren py front. Ofcause some are just students but a lot of the newer games 2015 and up are accessable out the box just pick your style and have at it. At 07:57 a.m. 15/06/2015, you wrote: and keep in mind guys these days folks are getting away from the big multi million dollar companies! My son really likes minecraft. that's an indi game. dota2 on steam, I'm pretty sure its an indi game also. games can be made by indipendent devs and still be excellent. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 11:03 AM, dark wrote: Hi John. While those are good suggestions, at the same time I will correct the point that mainstream in the sense most people mean is a much different beast. A mainstream title would have a budget in the hundreds of thousands and have perhaps a staff of a couple of hundred working flat out for weeks on end, designers, graphic artists, coders by the score, managers etc, indeed the voice actors and such are usually the last to be employed. This is why the gap is unrealistic. Yes, some of the mainstream games pproduced now have some very unique mechanics (although there are those who argued that like big hollywood films they're now all special effects). This isn't to say some sort of unified project wouldn't be a bad idea assuming that A, you could get several individual coders to agree on a set of programming language tools and conventions, only that even if you raised ten thousand dollars for the project that would still be a drop in the ocean. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
True, being a contributer you need to wait and see and not hound the dev for this or that project. I can't be bothered hounding maybe I am to nice I don't often check and that can be bad to. At 01:33 a.m. 15/06/2015, you wrote: Hi Knick. That is an interesting point. one of the things I've noticed with a lot of graphical indi games, is that they're rarely one person who does everything, usually there are two or three people including a coder, a graphic artist and maybe an animater or sound designer. Perhaps having more than one person on the project also means managing stuff like volunteer contributions can be done in a structured way and the person doing the coding can be left to, well coding. Beware the grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Nick Adamson n...@ndadamson.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi dark. There's a couple of factors at play. As has already has been said, game development can take some time and keeping volunteers interested in the medium to long term is quite difficult. Also following through on commitments can be an issue. As an example, when developing Park Boss I asked for volunteers to record short bits of dialog, a number of people contacted me and I sent scripts. That was the last I heard from about a third of the volunteers. Another thing that is a factor is the different recording quality that comes back. This didn't matter too much for Park Boss but in other audio environments could be noticeable and make the game feel disjointed There are a number of things that make managing a team of volunteers harder than employees. Things like wide spread locations, egos and commitment that probably puts developers off. In the end the developers like my self are very much code focussed and managing people takes away from coding time. That's why I think a large scale, volunteer developed game would need someone to act as a project manager who is not the main coder. Just some thoughts. Nick. On 14 Jun 2015, at 12:31, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi John. Your absolutely correct on quick responses to say game play questions, technical problems or even coding assistance, however that's not the sort of cooperation I was talking about. As I said, I was thinking of developers actually requesting script writers, managers and sound designers, essentially extra people to join their team and take over some of the none programming related matters, that is the sort of thing I've not seen as much of. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
An alternative is to set up contacts with resellers around the world who go to the conventions already but often they take commission. On 15 Jun 2015, at 16:17, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover certain geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to send someone the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it. I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach. As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I discovered through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the green dragon and ashes of angels. I found out about those thanks to a small one line paragraph in the rnib braille advertising leaflet with the silly name of welcome to a world of I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it does make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, particularly for people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only just learning their way around computers. I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general audiogames introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at least to sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated in braille and large print as well as electronically, and then sending copies of that! to various organizations, conventions etc, for people to pick up, find on a desk etc. such a thing could even be translated into different languages as well. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover certain geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to send someone the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it. I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach. As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I discovered through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the green dragon and ashes of angels. I found out about those thanks to a small one line paragraph in the rnib braille advertising leaflet with the silly name of welcome to a world of I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it does make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, particularly for people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only just learning their way around computers. I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general audiogames introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at least to sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated in braille and large print as well as electronically, and then sending copies of that! to various organizations, conventions etc, for people to pick up, find on a desk etc. such a thing could even be translated into different languages as well. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/15/2015 2:33 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it might not be marketable outside of a handful of enthusiasts our own age. There is a way to offset both of those problems and that is to create games that can directly be sold in the mainstream market as indie games. The problem there is the game developer will have to compete with other indie games of similar quality by hiring a graphics designer, learn how to do proper graphics animation, and will involve more time and overhead in adding lots of visual effects that won't aid the audio games community. Thus potentially distracting the developer from other concerns. Bottom line, I see where you are coming from. A lot of younger blind people have this dream of having accessible audio games equivalent to the mainstream games they know and love, but as you can hopefully see it is not that simple. There are an entire host of issues unresolved in terms of marketing, of developing games for the right age group, and so forth that need to be discussed. Programming the game we want is only half the story because after some developer does it he or she still needs to find a way to market it to the community at large and find like minded gamers in the right age group. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Mohsin Ali sma...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, I see your point now, yes, you are right on both accounts, and I agree that those are all valid reasons. but, you cant fault a man for hoping of better future. we all must put some effort to accomplish this task. although, I am studying history, but I did my intermediate in computer science, and am trying to make the heads and tails of the game programming. the first step is always the most
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it might not be marketable outside of a handful of enthusiasts our own age. There is a way to offset both of those problems and that is to create games that can directly be sold in the mainstream market as indie games. The problem there is the game developer will have to compete with other indie games of similar quality by hiring a graphics designer, learn how to do proper graphics animation, and will involve more time and overhead in adding lots of visual effects that won't aid the audio games community. Thus potentially distracting the developer from other concerns. Bottom line, I see where you are coming from. A lot of younger blind people have this dream of having accessible audio games equivalent to the mainstream games they know and love, but as you can hopefully see it is not that simple. There are an entire host of issues unresolved in terms of marketing, of developing games for the right age group, and so forth that need to be discussed. Programming the game we want is only half the story because after some developer does it he or she still needs to find a way to market it to the community at large and find like minded gamers in the right age group. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Mohsin Ali sma...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, I see your point now, yes, you are right on both accounts, and I agree that those are all valid reasons. but, you cant fault a man for hoping of better future. we all must put some effort to accomplish this task. although, I am studying history, but I did my intermediate in computer science, and am trying to make the heads and tails of the game programming. the first step is always the most difficult and I hope that one day the audio games would be able to compete in normal market. cheers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. Funny the computers aren't for play attitude sinse to be honest I wouldn't have learnt to use the internet properly or navigate correctly with supernova if it hadn't been for games, ditto with voiceover on the Iphone (indeed I specifically bought games to practice with when i got my Iphone). Then of course there is the more recent arguement that audiogames actually teach valuable skills, hell the blindsquare satnav now gives directional positional audio kews for it's beacons so walking around outside is geting more and more like something like Swamp, nice preparation for when the zombocalypse actually does! happen :D. the Rnib are about the same over here as I've said before, they certainly have an institutional approach, however they're usual line is most blind people aren't interested in that sort of thing which is why they only currently support and promote Azabat sinse it is built to appeal to the sort of people the Rnib see themselves as catering for. I do wonder though if other organizations in the uk would be more receptive such as action for blind people (who had the top ten audiogames a while ago), or possibly even Guide dogs, although their entertainment side has fallen off recently. That's why I'd suggest having some sort of braille brochure though, sinse obviously if it's not out there people won't know. All the best, dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, That might work assuming a game developer can get the blindness organizations interested in promoting their games or allowing their clients to see the article on audio games. The problem is I find NFB and other organizations like it very institutional about various things and may not be as receptive of audio games as one would like. Although, my personal experience isn't that extensive I can say I can recall a few cases where I approached someone on the topic only to get the brush-off from those kinds of folks. For example, several years ago I remember when I was losing my sight I was sent to a training course on Jaws and other adaptive products. At the time I had just come from a sighted world of mainstream games so innocently inquired of the instructor if he knew of an accessible games =that were Jaws accessible. The reply I got in return was that computers were used for work and not play. That I shouldn't spend my time with games and that other junk. I was shocked at that attitude, and have discovered there are many in the adaptive tech industry with that same attitude that computers are for work not play mindset. I can't say how extensively it runs in the NFB, ACB, and other circles but my initial encounter with organizations like them was not a positive one. So brailing up a pamphlet and sending it to the various organizations may work or it may not depending on how they view sharing it with their clients. Although, it might be worth a shot for a developer to try and advertise through those sorts of organizations as they would be able to get developers in touch with the community beyond our little audio games community. Cheers! On 6/15/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover certain geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to send someone the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it. I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach. As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I discovered through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the green dragon and ashes of angels. I found out about those thanks to a small one line paragraph in the rnib braille advertising leaflet with the silly name of welcome to a world of I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it does make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, particularly for people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only just learning their way around computers. I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general audiogames introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at least to sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated in braille and large print as well as electronically, and then sending copies of that! to various organizations, conventions etc, for people to pick up, find on a desk etc. such a thing could even be translated into different languages as well. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Knick. that is an idea, though reselling is also quite a pain to setup as well, particularly sinse in the past when it's been tried with audiogames it hasn't worked out well. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Nick Adamson n...@ndadamson.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine An alternative is to set up contacts with resellers around the world who go to the conventions already but often they take commission. On 15 Jun 2015, at 16:17, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Conventions might be problematic, partiuclarly sinse they only cover certain geographical regions meaning even if the money was raised to send someone the return on new interest probably wouldn't be worth it. I do wonder however if there is an alternative approach. As I have said before, some of my first pc games were the ones I discovered through whitestick.co.uk, web games like Legend of the green dragon and ashes of angels. I found out about those thanks to a small one line paragraph in the rnib braille advertising leaflet with the silly name of welcome to a world of I'm not sure where that add came from, indeed Tom Lorimer the whitestick.co.uk webmaster said he didn't know about it, however it does make me wonder about the uses of promotional literature, particularly for people or organizations who might have reach to people who are only just learning their way around computers. I wonder therefore if it would be worth creating a general audiogames introduction, and paying the smaller amount of money (compared at least to sending someone to a convention), it'd take to get it recreated in braille and large print as well as electronically, and then sending copies of that! to various organizations, conventions etc, for people to pick up, find on a desk etc. such a thing could even be translated into different languages as well. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Josh, I agree that going to blind conventions is probably the best way to market accessible games to the blind community. Unfortunately, we come back to the problem of money. A lot of audio game developers are blind themselves, are probably only getting SSI for income, so do not have a lot of money to spend on airfare, hotel rooms, and everything else required for extensive travel to and from various convention centers. That means while it might be a good way to promote a product the game developer still needs to raise enough cash to actually go to said conventions in the first place. Cheers! On 6/15/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: I think the best way to really get games out there would be to attend the ACB and nfb conventions and bring them to the attention of many many blind people and agencies. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Oh ahhh yes! I recently got told that too. Odd in my opinion but it is okay for sighted folks to play games on their PC tablet or phone, also sometimes used for work. I don't understand. You know, you could submit a write-up to ACB's Braille Forum, NFB-s Braille Monitor, and there is also the NFB Member List which goes to ALL the list on their listserv, the contact is Dave Andrews. Alternatively, you could just reach out to Blind Talk only, a memer of NFB's listserv. HTH, Danielle On 6/15/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Funny the computers aren't for play attitude sinse to be honest I wouldn't have learnt to use the internet properly or navigate correctly with supernova if it hadn't been for games, ditto with voiceover on the Iphone (indeed I specifically bought games to practice with when i got my Iphone). Then of course there is the more recent arguement that audiogames actually teach valuable skills, hell the blindsquare satnav now gives directional positional audio kews for it's beacons so walking around outside is geting more and more like something like Swamp, nice preparation for when the zombocalypse actually does! happen :D. the Rnib are about the same over here as I've said before, they certainly have an institutional approach, however they're usual line is most blind people aren't interested in that sort of thing which is why they only currently support and promote Azabat sinse it is built to appeal to the sort of people the Rnib see themselves as catering for. I do wonder though if other organizations in the uk would be more receptive such as action for blind people (who had the top ten audiogames a while ago), or possibly even Guide dogs, although their entertainment side has fallen off recently. That's why I'd suggest having some sort of braille brochure though, sinse obviously if it's not out there people won't know. All the best, dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark,
The organizations here probably wouldn't come out and say blind people
aren't interested in games, but I have a feeling it would go against
their self-image. I could be wrong about this but it seems like a lot
of organizations here try to pass their clients off as professional
blind men and women and have all kinds of concepts of what a blind
person should and should not be doing. I do not have a lot of
firsthand accounts so want to be careful about what I say, but I have
heard from people who have gone through the NFB training centers etc
who absolutely hated their our way is the right way{ attitude to any
given subject. If something disagrees with their self-image or concept
of what the perfect blind client should be they'll try and discourage
them from using it just because it does not agree with their Borg
unimind.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
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Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom.
There are several topics on the audiogames.net forum where people describe
their experiences with the Nfb, and I confess I'm not keen on the immage
buseness or the our way or else attitude, although as I've only heard
second hand accounts I can't speak for more.
With the Rnib, it's more a huuge! bias towards older people, aka people
who will leave them money in their will, (don't believe me, I once attended
a so called introduction to the rnib day which spent two hours on that very
subject).
However getting back on topic I could see the arguement of using games as
teaching aides to be quite a strong one if put correctly, particularly sinse
as I said, we are now getting to the point where many of the things used in
games are regular parts of life and the technology we have.
For example, if I were newly blind and not used to orientation towards a
sound source, playing a game which required this could really! help,
especially something like audio defense zombie arena on the Iphone which
requires turning in space and pointing the phone the same way you might
locate something making a noise in real life.
that's quite apart from satnavs or the tech question.
beware the grue!
Dark.
There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast
and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even
the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark,
The organizations here probably wouldn't come out and say blind people
aren't interested in games, but I have a feeling it would go against
their self-image. I could be wrong about this but it seems like a lot
of organizations here try to pass their clients off as professional
blind men and women and have all kinds of concepts of what a blind
person should and should not be doing. I do not have a lot of
firsthand accounts so want to be careful about what I say, but I have
heard from people who have gone through the NFB training centers etc
who absolutely hated their our way is the right way{ attitude to any
given subject. If something disagrees with their self-image or concept
of what the perfect blind client should be they'll try and discourage
them from using it just because it does not agree with their Borg
unimind.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
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gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
---
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Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
I think if it were presented the right way both ACB and nfb magazines
would accept and publish it.
follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
On 6/15/2015 3:42 PM, dark wrote:
Hi Tom.
There are several topics on the audiogames.net forum where people
describe their experiences with the Nfb, and I confess I'm not keen on
the immage buseness or the our way or else attitude, although as
I've only heard second hand accounts I can't speak for more.
With the Rnib, it's more a huuge! bias towards older people, aka
people who will leave them money in their will, (don't believe me, I
once attended a so called introduction to the rnib day which spent two
hours on that very subject).
However getting back on topic I could see the arguement of using games
as teaching aides to be quite a strong one if put correctly,
particularly sinse as I said, we are now getting to the point where
many of the things used in games are regular parts of life and the
technology we have.
For example, if I were newly blind and not used to orientation towards
a sound source, playing a game which required this could really! help,
especially something like audio defense zombie arena on the Iphone
which requires turning in space and pointing the phone the same way
you might locate something making a noise in real life.
that's quite apart from satnavs or the tech question.
beware the grue!
Dark.
There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is
vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars
than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream.
- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward
thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark,
The organizations here probably wouldn't come out and say blind people
aren't interested in games, but I have a feeling it would go against
their self-image. I could be wrong about this but it seems like a lot
of organizations here try to pass their clients off as professional
blind men and women and have all kinds of concepts of what a blind
person should and should not be doing. I do not have a lot of
firsthand accounts so want to be careful about what I say, but I have
heard from people who have gone through the NFB training centers etc
who absolutely hated their our way is the right way{ attitude to any
given subject. If something disagrees with their self-image or concept
of what the perfect blind client should be they'll try and discourage
them from using it just because it does not agree with their Borg
unimind.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
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list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
---
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list,
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---
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Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi John, True. However, I have known my fair share of game developers, myself included, who have asked for volunteers and there is an initial wave of people beating down the door wanting to help. Then, after a couple of weeks or so they all drift away and lose interest in the project and no longer want to help out. So that could be one reason developers don't seem to be asking for help. It is no fun to ask for help only to have all the potential volunteers walk away two or three weeks into the project. Cheers! On 6/14/15, john jpcarnemo...@gmail.com wrote: My personal opinion goes to the tune of you can't receive that which you don't ask for. Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise appear. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Josh, TDV stands for 3D Velocity by BPC Programs. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: what is tdv? i don't think i've heard of it. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi dark. There's a couple of factors at play. As has already has been said, game development can take some time and keeping volunteers interested in the medium to long term is quite difficult. Also following through on commitments can be an issue. As an example, when developing Park Boss I asked for volunteers to record short bits of dialog, a number of people contacted me and I sent scripts. That was the last I heard from about a third of the volunteers. Another thing that is a factor is the different recording quality that comes back. This didn't matter too much for Park Boss but in other audio environments could be noticeable and make the game feel disjointed There are a number of things that make managing a team of volunteers harder than employees. Things like wide spread locations, egos and commitment that probably puts developers off. In the end the developers like my self are very much code focussed and managing people takes away from coding time. That's why I think a large scale, volunteer developed game would need someone to act as a project manager who is not the main coder. Just some thoughts. Nick. On 14 Jun 2015, at 12:31, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Knick. That is an interesting point. one of the things I've noticed with a lot of graphical indi games, is that they're rarely one person who does everything, usually there are two or three people including a coder, a graphic artist and maybe an animater or sound designer. Perhaps having more than one person on the project also means managing stuff like volunteer contributions can be done in a structured way and the person doing the coding can be left to, well coding. Beware the grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Nick Adamson n...@ndadamson.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi dark. There's a couple of factors at play. As has already has been said, game development can take some time and keeping volunteers interested in the medium to long term is quite difficult. Also following through on commitments can be an issue. As an example, when developing Park Boss I asked for volunteers to record short bits of dialog, a number of people contacted me and I sent scripts. That was the last I heard from about a third of the volunteers. Another thing that is a factor is the different recording quality that comes back. This didn't matter too much for Park Boss but in other audio environments could be noticeable and make the game feel disjointed There are a number of things that make managing a team of volunteers harder than employees. Things like wide spread locations, egos and commitment that probably puts developers off. In the end the developers like my self are very much code focussed and managing people takes away from coding time. That's why I think a large scale, volunteer developed game would need someone to act as a project manager who is not the main coder. Just some thoughts. Nick. On 14 Jun 2015, at 12:31, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, Yes, I think you have a definite point about developers perhaps not being aware of their own shortcomings. That would include even me at times. I suspect the reason is that a lot of developers get into writing games because they have a very specific idea, dream, or concept for a game. Something that appeals to them and they set out to create the game as they imagine it. Unfortunately, like everyone the developer may have shortcomings that makes the end result less than a quality production, and because it is their dream game, their own idea, they feel a bit embarrassed or even perhaps a bit sensitive about letting someone else help work on it. I can confess to some of that myself. In short it is very easy for a developer to turn down any offers for help out of some personal sense of wanting to do it all themselves. Perhaps not recognizing or seeing their own shortcomings in the process. As a result the final product is something below professional standards just because the developer was lacking in a certain area and was unable to foresee their own shortcomings in that regard. Cheers! On 6/14/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
oh yeah and found a lot of good youtube videos that are good and descriptive for beginning to play chess. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 9:32 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, That makes two of us. As a software and game developer I often feel like those asking for games equivalent to mainstream games assume that audio game developers aren't developing games equal to their favorite mainstream games out of laziness or perhaps a lack of desire. It feels like they sometimes assume someone can just snap their fingers and voila their is an accessible version of Assassin Creed, Call of ?Duty, or whatever. Things just aren't that simple and straight forward, and take more time, money, and energy to produce than the uninitiated assume. As you so correctly pointed out it is unfair to compare most single audio game developers to multi-million dollar game companies who are developing massively complex games for the mainstream gaming community because we just don't have the time, resources, or ability to compete with that kind of game. It is much more fair and realistic to hold us to the indie standards of smaller indie developers who are developing good games, but on a much smaller budget and less resources. In a case like that I think a lot of audio game developers could improve and develop games on par with the indie games for PC. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this I want a mainstream game debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying where is the audio version of insert mainstream title I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh. Yes, even when comparing audiogames to indi games there are some pretty huge gaps, and yes, the lack of easier development tools like unity is undoubtedly part of the problem, however I tend to agree with Thomas'
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
yeah thomas and now that we have talking dosbox working with NVDA we have even more fun games to play. I can play pinochle in talking dosbox. and on the windows side I'm now concentrating on learning how to play spoonbill software chess challenge. once i get good I may get a real accessible chess set from maxi-aids. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 9:32 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, That makes two of us. As a software and game developer I often feel like those asking for games equivalent to mainstream games assume that audio game developers aren't developing games equal to their favorite mainstream games out of laziness or perhaps a lack of desire. It feels like they sometimes assume someone can just snap their fingers and voila their is an accessible version of Assassin Creed, Call of ?Duty, or whatever. Things just aren't that simple and straight forward, and take more time, money, and energy to produce than the uninitiated assume. As you so correctly pointed out it is unfair to compare most single audio game developers to multi-million dollar game companies who are developing massively complex games for the mainstream gaming community because we just don't have the time, resources, or ability to compete with that kind of game. It is much more fair and realistic to hold us to the indie standards of smaller indie developers who are developing good games, but on a much smaller budget and less resources. In a case like that I think a lot of audio game developers could improve and develop games on par with the indie games for PC. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this I want a mainstream game debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying where is the audio version of insert mainstream title I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
and keep in mind guys these days folks are getting away from the big multi million dollar companies! My son really likes minecraft. that's an indi game. dota2 on steam, I'm pretty sure its an indi game also. games can be made by indipendent devs and still be excellent. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 11:03 AM, dark wrote: Hi John. While those are good suggestions, at the same time I will correct the point that mainstream in the sense most people mean is a much different beast. A mainstream title would have a budget in the hundreds of thousands and have perhaps a staff of a couple of hundred working flat out for weeks on end, designers, graphic artists, coders by the score, managers etc, indeed the voice actors and such are usually the last to be employed. This is why the gap is unrealistic. Yes, some of the mainstream games pproduced now have some very unique mechanics (although there are those who argued that like big hollywood films they're now all special effects). This isn't to say some sort of unified project wouldn't be a bad idea assuming that A, you could get several individual coders to agree on a set of programming language tools and conventions, only that even if you raised ten thousand dollars for the project that would still be a drop in the ocean. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
and even if someone like EA games would start making audio games there probably would be no market insentive and they would quickly drop the project. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 5:25 AM, dark wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this I want a mainstream game debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying where is the audio version of insert mainstream title I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh. Yes, even when comparing audiogames to indi games there are some pretty huge gaps, and yes, the lack of easier development tools like unity is undoubtedly part of the problem, however I tend to agree with Thomas' sentiment here. People are very quick to say oh where is that big complex multi million dollar audiogam yet even the ones who don't spend their time bashing developers don't tend to be good at solutions or looking around for what could be done rather than complaining about what is lacking. ? All the best, ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Thomas, I see your point now, yes, you are right on both accounts, and I agree that those are all valid reasons. but, you cant fault a man for hoping of better future. we all must put some effort to accomplish this task. although, I am studying history, but I did my intermediate in computer science, and am trying to make the heads and tails of the game programming. the first step is always the most difficult and I hope that one day the audio games would be able to compete in normal market. cheers. On 6/15/15, john jpcarnemo...@gmail.com wrote: My personal opinion goes to the tune of you can't receive that which you don't ask for. Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise appear. -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 2:24 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
My personal opinion goes to the tune of you can't receive that which you don't ask for. Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise appear. -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 2:24 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi, Well, I would not go as far to say there would be no market incentive, but would say that the market would initially be pretty small. Small enough that there would not be an immediate return on their investment. Exactly how big or small the market would be for someone like EA Games would remain to be seen since there is a lot more blind and low vision people out there than this list or the audio games forum. The problem is it is hard to accurately count them since they are not connected with our group and while we know they exist we don't know anything about their desire to play games or how much they'd spend on a mainstream setup to play accessible mainstream games. At this point all we can do is guess. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Josh K joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: and even if someone like EA games would start making audio games there probably would be no market insentive and they would quickly drop the project. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
what is tdv? i don't think i've heard of it. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 9:40 AM, john wrote: I'll do my best to answer each of your points below: Game comparison: I have no clue. I haven't played mainstream games, and really pay them little attention, so have no idea how to compare. However, what I've seen leads me to say something like TDV is relatively close to mainstream - its got story, its got multiplayer, and its got other stuff to do. I'd also put Swamp in that box, especially once you start involving player-written campaigns in the equation. If there were more of those out there, it'd probably be pretty close to mainstream titles. For the rest of your points, I think its important to point out that what's being discussed here is a number of developers, not just two or three, banding together with the intent of getting a product out the door. We're not talking one loan dev doing everything - we're talking several, with community support for every aspect of the job. Finances: If we made a game a truly community project and then went ahead and published a list of things we needed to make it work and their prices for the community to contribute on, as well as pitching in ourselves, I think we could probably raise more money than you think. $100 is a lot of money, but there are probably a couple people out there who'd be willing to send in that much, as well as several others who'd be fine sending in $20 for the project. I'd also like to note that if you make it your intent to make a project low budget, you can still come up with something high quality without spending $5000 on sounds and acting. I'm two years into my own project, and while I certainly wouldn't call it mainstream quality, my total budget (including bgt because I'm being generous) has been... $40, total. $10 for a sound library, and $30 for the bgt license. Of course I haven't gotten everything done (not even close), but every step of the way I'm trying to find ways to use existing or free resources, rather than spending hundreds of dollars on commercial libraries. Time: two points here. 1: even large companies take years to make those games, also. Its not as if they can crank them out in six months, at least not from what I've heard. 2: Yeah, you're right. Its going to take a long time for us to make a really big and high quality game. We'll tell the community that before we go ahead and take their money - something like please understand that this project is expected to take at least five years before anything is even remotely available for beta. Compensation: this is a community-supported project, built and worked on by the community, every sep of the way. People have already contributed to build the game, it'd be completely unethical to then turn around and tell them you wanted more money for a project that they've been a part of almost as much as you. That said, developers would be spending a lot of time on this - a donation button is perfectly appropriate. You've also mentioned the subject of a common programming interface in the past - I think that would have to be something determined only once the team of developers was assembled. Compromises would have to be made, of course - its pointless to say I want to write this game in language x if only two developers in the community know that language at all. There's just no way to figure out what would work before those who were going to do the writing were all there and able to say how comfortable they were with a given interface. -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 2:03 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Mohsin , Honestly most of our games seem more on par with mainstream games from 20 years ago rather than 10 to 15 years ago. I'd say comparing our games to Sega, Nintendo, or any other games from 10 to 15 years ago is pretty conservative as I happen to own a number of console games from 2000 to 2005 and a lot of them are far superior to any audio game I know of in terms of audio, graphics, game play, etc. So the question at hand is what to do about it. It is all well and good to plead for better and more advanced audio games. It is even alright to encourage our developers to build better and more complex games. However, until certain issues have practical solutions the audio games industry isn't going anywhere. First, is finances. Our audio game developers are not multi-million dollar companies with lots of money to pay out on royalties for sounds, music, and top notch acting. So one way you can accomplish your goal of better audio games is by helping us find ways to finance our game development. People have tried kickstarter and crowd funding with mixed success. Others have tried taking preorders and not managed to raise the funds they really needed. There are ways of razing money but so far none
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, That makes two of us. As a software and game developer I often feel like those asking for games equivalent to mainstream games assume that audio game developers aren't developing games equal to their favorite mainstream games out of laziness or perhaps a lack of desire. It feels like they sometimes assume someone can just snap their fingers and voila their is an accessible version of Assassin Creed, Call of ?Duty, or whatever. Things just aren't that simple and straight forward, and take more time, money, and energy to produce than the uninitiated assume. As you so correctly pointed out it is unfair to compare most single audio game developers to multi-million dollar game companies who are developing massively complex games for the mainstream gaming community because we just don't have the time, resources, or ability to compete with that kind of game. It is much more fair and realistic to hold us to the indie standards of smaller indie developers who are developing good games, but on a much smaller budget and less resources. In a case like that I think a lot of audio game developers could improve and develop games on par with the indie games for PC. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this I want a mainstream game debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying where is the audio version of insert mainstream title I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh. Yes, even when comparing audiogames to indi games there are some pretty huge gaps, and yes, the lack of easier development tools like unity is undoubtedly part of the problem, however I tend to agree with Thomas' sentiment here. People are very quick to say oh where is that big complex multi million dollar audiogam yet even the ones
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi John. While those are good suggestions, at the same time I will correct the point that mainstream in the sense most people mean is a much different beast. A mainstream title would have a budget in the hundreds of thousands and have perhaps a staff of a couple of hundred working flat out for weeks on end, designers, graphic artists, coders by the score, managers etc, indeed the voice actors and such are usually the last to be employed. This is why the gap is unrealistic. Yes, some of the mainstream games pproduced now have some very unique mechanics (although there are those who argued that like big hollywood films they're now all special effects). This isn't to say some sort of unified project wouldn't be a bad idea assuming that A, you could get several individual coders to agree on a set of programming language tools and conventions, only that even if you raised ten thousand dollars for the project that would still be a drop in the ocean. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
