[ilugd] Microsoft's greatest miss

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Interesting opinion about how Microsoft's influence in the software
world is waning. The hottest new world right now and possibly in the
future is mobile computing - mobiles and tablets, and Microsoft is not
there at the top in either of them. The result?

http://minimalmac.com/post/17758177061/microsofts-biggest-miss

> Microsoft for many years had convinced the world that, in order to
> get “real work” done, you needed Office.  
>
> Then, she explained, the iPhone came. There was no Office. People got
> things done. Then the iPad came. There was no Office. People got
> things done. Android came. People got things done. All of those things
> that they, just a couple of years ago, were convinced they needed
> Office to do. They got them done without it. And thus, the truth was
> revealed.  
>
> Like the curtain finally falling from the Wizard of Oz to find just a
> small, frail, man pretending to be far more powerful and relevant than
> he really was. Microsoft’s biggest miss was allowing the world to
> finally see the truth behind the big lie — they were not needed to get
> real work done. Or anything done, really.
>
> And that will be what ultimately kills them.

Of course, to be fair, the argument is slightly less relevant in the
corporate space, but the trend is unmistakable.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] What happens in BASH when you do Ctrl-C (hint, it's not simply sending a SIGINT)

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 02:29:23PM +0530, Anupam Jain wrote:
> A little background first - When I do apt-get install downloads from my
> company internet it provides a high burst of speed (400-500KB/s) for the
> first 10 seconds or so before dropping down to a tenth of that (40-50KB/s),
> and then after a few minutes to a truly miserable (4-5KB/s). This makes me
> think that the sysadmin has implemented some sort of a network throttling
> scheme.

Many ISPs/traffic shaping infrastructures provide burstable speeds.
Since most traffic for these ISPs are primarily web clients which
generally finish their business in a few seconds, these give a much
better internet experience without hurting the ISPs much, as this gets
averaged out over time among all their customers.

What you are trying to do, is to exploit the way these bursts are
allowed. See how the bursts are related, and you might get a better idea
about how to do this.

http://luxik.cdi.cz/~devik/qos/htb/manual/userg.htm#burst

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] ubuntu not supporting to HP laptop - Pavilion dv2700

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 08:27:26PM +0530, vivek gupta wrote:
> hey i guess u might be having some problem with grub conflict there has been
> error with new grub since its heavier version once u log into ur windows
> partition n relogin into ubuntu grub gets corrupt 2 suggestions if this is
> the case:
> 1)go in for lower version of ubuntu preferably 9
> 2)or downgrade the expanded latest grub

Actually, for all dual-boots with Windows, I would seriously discourage
using grub at all in the MBR.

For Vista, Windows 7 and up, you are better off installing grub only on
the partition having /boot (or / ), and then using EasyBCD[1].

[1] http://neosmart.net/dl.php?id=1

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Wireless woes

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 06:59:07PM +0530, shashwat chetan wrote:
> Hey guys,
> I am using a Toshiba NB100 netbook with Ubuntu netbook remix 10.04.
> Whenever I open the netwirk list to connect to my home network, it shows my
> network name twice in the list. One of them is the correct one while the
> other just tries to connect and fails. Sometimes neither of them work. What
> could be causing this to happen and how do I fix this? I am using a Linksys
> WRT54G router.

Have you by any chance used the "Edit connection" option in
NetworkManager to create a wireless connection. Regardless, right-click
on the NetworkManager icon, select "Edit Connections", delete all the
saved access points under wireless and try again.

> One more thing, I forgot the IP address I used for my router. How do I get
> that without disconnecting any wires from the router or resetting it?

Is that the internal interface of the router, or the external interface
to the ISP (assuming you have a static IP)?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Server is hacked, pl. advice

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 02:52:51PM +, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> On 12/03/2010 06:26 AM, abhishek jain wrote:
> >can anyone here suggest me what should i do,
> >i am not sure how user1 logged into server, further what does the command
> >"perl udp.pl 92.114.6.32 0 22" mean which eats up 99.7% of CPU .
> >
> 
> You have already had a lot of good advice here, I'll add a few more things :
> 
> - backup you data, and only your data

Oh and one more thing. If your VPS hosts applications which store
passwords of users, and if you suspect that the cracker got a shell (in
this case, it looks certain) make sure that you let your users know that
their passwords may have been compromised. Some applications (I think
even mailman was some years back) don't use one way hashes for storing
passwords (ostensibly to helpfully send these passwords back to the user
when they forget their password). If a person got shell on the account,
then he could have easily taken a look around and picked up all the
passwords he could find. Some of these are worth quite a few $$$ in the
"market".

Difficult decision, yes. Many clients might not take it as an example of
genuine concern for their own sake (which it is) and scram to a
competitor with less scruples.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 06:05:05PM +, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> kindle supports epub format'ed books fine given that non-drm'ed epub
> documents can be converted to pdf.

Actually, the regular Kindle (not DX) is pathetic for PDFs.

epub formats convert almost losslessly (I believe) to .mobi formats
using foss software like Calibre. .mobi is supported by Kindle.

In fact, Calibre has this fantastic option of converting given websites
automatically to a chosen format like mobi at specified time intervals.
Allowing you to read successive versions of a website like a magazine on
Kindle.

http://calibre-ebook.com/user_manual/news.html

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:45:13PM +0530, Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote:
> Well, the Kindle and its brethren are out anyway for me due to DRM.  

You mean the *Amazon Kindle Store* content is out because of DRM. If you think
of Kindle as just a personal electronic device, just like your mobile or
mp3 player, it works too. You don't have to buy Amazon Kindle content
with DRM to use it. I buy DRM free content from Pragmatic and Oreilly
all the time and copy it to Kindle using the FOSS software Calibre.

You can read all of the free books on Gutenberg on Kindle by using the
mobi format, and Calibre can even convert epubs to mobi formats for you
to read on the Kindle.

As Karanbir said, once you start reading on the Kindle, you would find
it difficult to go back. Of course, not all physical book reading
experiences transfer to Kindle - it is not so good at random access. But
overall, you wouldn't have issue with the transition.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Converting Unicode to PS

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 10:16:41AM +0530, Nandeep Mali wrote:
> On a side note, am I the only one getting these annoying Boxbe alerts
> whenever I send a mail to the list?
> 
> In this case it was from Mr. manishchabr...@gmail.com

I got them too. Pretty irritating. Subscribing to a public mailing list
with such mechanisms in place is really insensitive.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Print formatted HTML

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 04:55:56PM +0530, Rishab Arora wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been looking for a way to print a formatted HTML page (with CSS support
> if possible) but haven't been able to find much.
> All I've managed to do is print the source code itself. Is it possible to
> create a script to print the page inclusive of the images, tables etc.
> 
> The purpose is to create a formatted page including images using content
> from a database and print it.
> So the easiest way I could think of was to put the content in a prepared
> HTML page and print it.
> Any other way out?


The tough way would be to code in a lightweight rendering library like
GtkHTML or mozembed to render the page and print it. The easier way
might be to use one of those extensions of firefox which let you print
from the command line (I found this:
http://sites.google.com/site/torisugari/commandlineprint2)

HTH,

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] ILUGD meeting: 2.30pm, Sun., 7th Feb., 2010, SIT, JNU

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Yashpal Nagar  wrote:
> I still remeber the chilly momos of Vasant Vihar... after a great session of
> Open Source/ Linux. Such meeting are a valuable platform to anyone wheather
> he is begineer, intermediate or  proficient in the Linux/OSS technologies
> and its awareness.

... and the post-meeting rolls at Saket market is one of my best
memories about ILUGD meet. :)

- Sandip


-- 
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twitter.com/sandip

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Re: [ilugd] how to convert an airtel pdf bill into a spreadsheet using FOSS tools or apps?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

rakesh kumar wrote:
> How can you open this if it is password protected. If there is any tool then
> please post about that.
> 

Remove encryption from the PDF:
http://blog.sandipb.net/2009/01/10/removing-encryption-from-legitimate-pdf-files-on-ubuntu/

then proceed as any other pdf.

AFAIK, a PDF is like a graphic image. It is typically not structured
data that can be converted to a spreadsheet. If any conversion is
possible, you need to decompress the PDF file and parse PS to get at
your data.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Audio & Microphone

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Sudev Barar [18/08/09 12:19 +0530]:

I am trying to pick up some pointers on how to set up audio and
recording (microphone) settings. I want to use Skype and it works but
the audio quality and volume of output is very low. And more
irritatingly the microphone pick up is very low. Even wihen I use
headset and external mic there is very low clarity.

I have tried various settings under volume control and alsa mixer.
Pointers would be welcome.

Similar system  under M$ system works perfectly for using skype with
need for headphone and external speaker.

I am using ThinkpadR61 with Ubuntu 9.04


I use skype a lot in Ubuntu 9.04. But I use pulse for everything(output,
ringing), except for microphone.

For microphone I use the hw devices that show up in skype. Using
microphone via pulse shoots up the cpu usage and causes delays in audio.

Also ensure that all kind of mic boost etc. are turned off. They cause
more noise than signal.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] diff with files

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ abhishek jain [11/08/09 12:19 +0530]:

I got the following o/p when i ran

rsync --dry-run /home/dir1/public_html /home/dir2/public_html

o/p
skipping directory /home/dir1/public_html


Pl. advice



Use the -r (recursive) option with rsync.

- Pl

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Re: [ilugd] NCERT Books online

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

At the moment each book is just showing content pages. And the devanagri fonts
need some ironing out still.



All the chapters are available. The idiot who designed the setup doesn't
realize how broken it is.

Each of the book links gives you a PDF with the contents, right? Open
this PDF in evince. For each of the chapters, copy the chapter link from
the content and paste it after the domain name.

The person who created this assumed that the browser would open the PDF
embedded and the absolute URIs (without the hostname) would probably open 
correctly. I can almost see the minister standing beside this guy
nodding while he gleefully clicks on the contents page on his computer 
to get to the other chapters.


e.g. class XII maths 1 


1. Download content.pdf and open in evince.
2. Copy the link of first chapter:
   /book_publishing/NEW BOOK 2007/class12/PDF Class12 math I/Relations and 
Functions ch 1.pdf
3. Paste it in the browser after http://www.ncert.nic.in so that the
   full URL becomes http://www.ncert.nic.in/book_publishing/NEW BOOK 2007/class12/PDF Class12 math I/Relations and Functions ch 1.pdf 
   (Don't click on the link above. Use copy-paste. Spaces are not escaped)



- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Most Affordable Linux Store Online...

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Raj Mathur [11/08/09 19:44 +0530]:

On Tuesday 11 Aug 2009, Shubham Gupta wrote:

One Of The Finest Online Linux Suppliers In India.
[snip]


Please prefix commercial e-mails with [COMMERCIAL] in the subject line 
to comply with list etiquette.




I think this person has already sent this identical mail thrice within
the past few days. Even without the list etiquette guideline, that
qualifies as spamming. Three strike policy?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Warning! Re: openi...@yahoo

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Raj Mathur wrote:

Couldn't it be a genuine recruiter recruiting for Yahoo?



It could be.

1. However, there is an often mistaken assumption that somebody mailing 
from a @yahoo.com domain for an yahoo job is working for yahoo.


Especially when the recruiter here is not mentioning any other identity 
(e.g. that they are a third party recruiting firm), many people are 
likely to be misled.


2. Recruiters directly contracted by yahoo for openings are supposed to 
adhere to certain guidelines while posting to the Open source community. 
We have been trying for the past couple of years to ensure that these 
folks observe commercial posting rules similar to what ILUGD has. 
Unfortunately, they sometimes have ulterior motives to do what they 
do(next point), are careless or they simply don't care much for the 
sentiments of the Opensource community.


3. We have had several instances in the past where recruiters float 
their personal email addresses on behalf of companies they currently 
represent, and even after they are no longer representing Yahoo (e.g. 
when their contract is over) they keep getting resumes from job seekers 
discovering their old post from archives. These resumes are sent with 
the faith that they will reach Yahoo, but they do not. I personally 
consider that unacceptable.


As long as I find people claiming to solicit resumes on behalf of Yahoo! 
and keeping a certain amount of ambiguity about their identity, I will 
try to clarify to list members about their possible lack of authenticity.


- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] microsoft violated GPL before releasing linux code?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Yashpal Nagar wrote:

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Linux Lingam wrote:


does this explain microsoft's recent-found love of GPL?

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135853/Engineer_Microsoft_violated_GPL_before_Linux_code_release

...Many see open-source software as the biggest threat to Microsoft's

software business. The company has made broad claims that Linux violates
many of its patents, and it continues to seek royalties from open-source
companies that use Linux-based software.
...
 ^^

Is the above really true? any example please.



http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3897482794.html

"""
As part of the agreement, Novell will pay a running royalty to Microsoft 
for use of its patents in SUSE Linux. Both companies, as Smith 
mentioned, have large patent portfolios. No mention, however, was made 
of Microsoft paying a royalty to Novell for the use of its patents.


Microsoft's CEO Steve Ballmer (left) said that, in effect, "Novell will 
act as a proxy for its customers, but only for Novell's customers."


"""


- Sandip

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[ilugd] Warning! Re: openi...@yahoo

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

It is not just the fact that this post violates list guidelines for 
commercial email. I also wish to inform this list to ignore all mails 
from addresses like this.


Please note that official email address for genuine representatives from 
Yahoo would have @yahoo-inc.com domain as the *contact* address.


Any other address should be considered misleading or fake or simply 
without official sanction. Any resumes sent to email addresses without 
the yahoo-inc.com domain may be sold to other commercial interests or 
could be added to a spamming database. So be warned.


Regarding this email- I will be reporting this to concerned officials of 
our company.


- Sandip
(An Yahoo employee)

recruit it wrote:
 
Hi 
 
Yahoo is looking for senior professionals with the following skillset:

If interested pls send in your resume to itrecruiterfor...@yahoo.com
 
Atleast 8 – 10 years of experience in IT industry, with hands-on experience on multiple Unix variant high-end servers; operations that include high availability, capacity planning, SLA planning, etc.


UNIX / Web / Database and other related:

Excellent hands on linux or unix or any similar variants; both administration 
and internals.
Working knowledge of apache or any web servers
Good understanding of apache logs, config, etc. and be able to debug the issues
Experience of the file systems, nfs, dns, mail
Should be able to interpret system condition by looking at system 
stats/profiles (e.g. CPU, Memory, Swap, disk capacity).
Good Working knowledge of ftp, tcp/ip, sockets and other necessary protocols.
Automation experience in infrastructure monitoring
Usage of open source tools like nagios etc


Networking:

Understanding of routers, switches, Should have dealt with network debugging 
tools to check the trace routes, packet loss, TCP dumps and relate it to the 
applications impact.

Programming:

Scripting in shell / Perl
Well versed with usage of Regular expressions, awk, sed
 
 



  
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[ilugd] For amar singh (was) Re: [OT]Microsoft stuns Linux world, submits source code for kernel

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Amar Singh wrote:

this is my first query
so i dont know how to post


Well, for one, make this your first lesson - if you are really 
interested in a solution, *stop* replying to unrelated email to send 
your queries. You have done this twice already, and it is really 
irritating to people who use certain email software. You lose potential 
replies that way.


I see you are using Yahoo! mail. Just copy the email address 
"ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org", then clock on "compose" button, paste 
this email address, write "help needed to install vlc tar.gz package" as 
the subject, and click send.


- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] [OT]Microsoft stuns Linux world, submits source code for kernel

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Arun Khan wrote:


FWIW, how is this different from other vendors submitting driver code to 
the Linux kernel to support "their" product?


From what I have read about it, supposedly it improves guest OS Linux 
performance in MS Hyper-V virtualization and not the other way around.  
Had they submitted kernel code to KVM to improve MS Windows performance 
in Linux KVM virtualization that would be something to talk about :)


Well, for one, from the article, this is different from how VMWare has 
been operating - requiring their drivers being installed separately.


I hate to say this, but regardless of their commercial intentions, M$ 
chose a better path than VMware, it seems.


- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Microsoft Fights back with FIRE

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 18 March 2009 01:44:20 Arun SAG wrote:
>
> Seems like microsoft is on FIRE
> BizSpark/microsoft-india-launches-bizspark-for-startups.aspx> ,DreamSpark

I saw a pitch for Bizmark in a blog meet sponsored my Microsoft 
recently. In all the gushing about the help they are providing to 
startups, they neglect talking too much about the strings attached.

The article you quote however mentions some:

> For signing up for the program, a start up needs to be engaged in the
> development of software-based product or service, that is core to
> their business model. It needs to be privately held, with lees than
> three years in business. Also, the firm should have less than $1
> million in annual revenue. Microsoft Corp (India) will take $100 from
> the startup when it (the startup) exits the program after three
> years.

In short, it is prisonerware.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] PM Office switches to Open Source Mailing Solution

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Monday 16 March 2009 09:29:01 Dhiraj Gaur wrote:
> most of the emails addressed to it were not received. The problem was
> detected only in late April after which the Microsoft Outlook Express
> email software was discontinued and replaced by — Squirrel mail.

I am more puzzled by this bit than anything else.

How much of the problem does replacing Outlook Express by Squirrelmail 
solve? 

- Is the IMAP server behind Squirrelmail an open source one? Or is it 
Exchange? 

- Is the machine on which Squirrelmail is accessed Windows or not? 

- Would downloading/executing attachments, which is the most likely 
cause of the virus attack, cause a similar attack on the host computer 
or not?

--
 Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] BJP accepts key sections of the FOSS Manifesto

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Sunday 15 March 2009 09:35:54 Raj Mathur wrote:
>
> Great work, everyone who contributed and specially Venky for taking
> the initiative.  Everything else being equal, a clearly-articulated
> FOSS policy would definitely sway my vote towards the BJP.

Nothing specific against BJP, but do you really think that a policy 
intention has in the past ever worked against market forces in a 
government/economics setup which is market-driven?

Our past "friends" CPIM talked about FOSS on one hand and proudly 
announced strategic partnership with M$ for state education on the other 
hand.

We cannot rejoice/rely on support by political parties for pushing for 
FOSS.

I however do acknowledge that the Indian contingent in the recent ISO 
OpenXML saga did a very commendable job against very heavy odds. Of 
course the people involved weren't government officials, but at least it 
had the blessing in some way of the Indian government.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Question on tetex/latex/texinfo and pdfs

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Monday 09 February 2009 17:54:30 Gora Mohanty wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:22:37 +0530
> Sandip Bhattacharya  wrote:
> [...]
>
> > If i need to replace CM fonts with say bitstream charter or Adobe
> > times, how do I proceed when generating PDFs from texinfo?
>
> [...]

I figured out a way to change the fonts in texinfo generated 
PDFs to at least something more printable. Documented at:

http://blog.sandipb.net/2009/02/12/getting-more-printable-pdfs-from-texinfo-manuals/

- Sandip


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[ilugd] Question on tetex/latex/texinfo and pdfs

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

I dislike the way computer modern fonts in GNU manuals and other texinfo 
generated manuals print from generated PDFs. Reading from various 
mailing lists, this is primarily because of the thin outlines of the 
computer modern fonts.

If i need to replace CM fonts with say bitstream charter or Adobe times, 
how do I proceed when generating PDFs from texinfo?

My guess is to convert from texi to tex somehow, put some font selection 
stuff in the source and then pdflatex. I also read that the mathmptx 
package replaces some of the fonts with more printable ones.

Can some latex expert here guide me through this please? 

Much thanks in advance,
  Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Ubuntu’s Shuttleworth: “I don ’t think anyone can make money from the Linux desktop ”

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 23:29:22 Sudhanwa Jogalekar wrote:
> Some interesting reading here:
>
> Ubuntu's Shuttleworth: "I don't think anyone can make money from the
> Linux desktop"
>
> Check out this URL:
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2894&tag=nl.e539


Context is very important. :)

- Sandip

=
Mark Shuttleworth, the guy behind the most popular Linux distro 
(Ubuntu), bursts a bubble during yesterday’s press call:

“I don’t think anyone can make money from the Linux desktop.”

Rather than making money from the desktop OS, Shuttleworth believes that 
the direction to go is for-cost services:

“The only way to build business around software is with services.”
=


- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Apple a bigger threat than Microsoft (was) Re: apple iphone versus android

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Friday 24 October 2008 16:21:10 Raj Mathur wrote:
> On Friday 24 Oct 2008, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> > [snip]
> > So the only argument left to fight about against Apple is the
> > philosophical angle, one that has always been the toughest to get
> > across.
>
> You have only the philosophical angle if you restrict yourself to
> FSF's views.  If you take the Open Source approach, then Apple has
> already lost, since they have forgone all the benefits of the open
> source development paradigm (stability, fewer bugs, faster
> development, more relevance, security) by choosing to build
> proprietary software.  

Yes, but while it was quite easy and self-evident to any user of all the 
problems that Windows has, problems like stability, security etc. are 
IMO fewer reported in the case of Macs. I might be wrong here because 
of the proportionally less media attention that macs get.


> That they chose a FOSS platform to build their 
> environment and applications on is only incidental: an environment is
> only as stable and secure as it's weakest link, and in the case of
> Apple (or any other proprietary software vendor) their weakest link
> happens to be their proprietary developments.

True. Recent security updates for itunes have shown that. This is 
besides their monopolistic policies in ostensibly open platforms like 
the iphone app store.

My point was that there are some disadvantages of closed source software 
that are apparent and quite visible. But their using a FOSS platform at 
the backend addresses some of the *technical* arguments that we have 
had.

- Sandip

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[ilugd] Apple a bigger threat than Microsoft (was) Re: apple iphone versus android

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Friday 24 October 2008 14:00:23 Linux Lingam wrote:
> a closed proprietary paradigm won't make a digital handheld in the
> age of freedom.
>
> apple hubris all over again.
> except this time, the world has learnt its lessons
> even if apple hasn't.
> thus we'll be wary of microsoft-like predatory greed,
> and embrace muft and mukt paradigms instead.

Actually, what most people do not realize is that Apple is as, if not 
more, significant threat than Microsoft in the war for software 
freedom.

Most of the technical arguments that FOSS evangelists have, fall apart 
when you are talking about Apple and Mac OsX. Mac OsX has very less, if 
not none, of the perceived instability of Windows. Default applications 
bundled with the OS do quite a decent job for many users. And OS being 
based on BSD itself makes most of the arguments about 
Unix-better-than-windows moot. On top of this, a significant number of 
well known FOSS folks use Macs. I have seen photos of FOSS conferences 
where most of the people were using Macs.

So the only argument left to fight about against Apple is the 
philosophical angle, one that has always been the toughest to get 
across.

I see this problem becoming bigger as Apple makes further inroads. 
According to many market reports, they already are a market leader in 
$1000+ notebooks, and have increased their share to ~10+% in new pc 
sales worldwide.

Accordingly, it is very important that FOSS evangelists make sure that 
their arguments make as much relevance to Macs as to Windows. Stop 
talking about BSODs, or Viruses, etc. Talk more about the evils of 
closed source.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] software patents

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thursday 23 October 2008 10:09:04 Saurabh Nanda wrote:
> Whoever wants to argue about the efficacy of software patents should
> make it a point to read this essay by Paul Graham before forming &
> voicing strong opinions:
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/softwarepatents.html
>

Nice arguments, but if I may quote him (out of context to put him at a 
disadvantage :-P ), here are some nice extracts:


"""
One thing I do feel pretty certain of is that if you're against software 
patents, you're against patents in general. Gradually our machines 
consist more and more of software. Things that used to be done with 
levers and cams and gears are now done with loops and trees and 
closures. There's nothing special about physical embodiments of control 
systems that should make them patentable, and the software equivalent 
not.

Unfortunately, patent law is inconsistent on this point. Patent law in 
most countries says that algorithms aren't patentable. This rule is 
left over from a time when "algorithm" meant something like the Sieve 
of Eratosthenes. In 1800, people could not see as readily as we can 
that a great many patents on mechanical objects were really patents on 
the algorithms they embodied."
"""


Yes, we believe that the patents system has moved much away from it's 
original purpose but we especially believe the problem is in software 
patents/algorithms. Saying that algorithms nowadays are more complex 
and therefore is ok to patent is incorrect. Algorithms build over 
others and with knowledge of previous algorithms, a lot of people are 
near about the same distance from the frontier. The chances of 
different people hitting the same method to solve a problem is much 
higher now than before. This is especially true in the entrepreneurial 
culture (startups) of today.



"""
To be patentable, an invention has to be more than new. It also has to 
be non-obvious.
"""


I have heard this several times. How do you define "obvious"? Leaving 
such a significant issue to such an ambiguous term itself breaks the 
system.

"""
Applying for a patent is a negotiation. You generally apply for a 
broader patent than you think you'll be granted, and the examiners 
reply by throwing out some of your claims and granting others. So I 
don't really blame Amazon for applying for the one-click patent. The 
big mistake was the patent office's, for not insisting on something 
narrower, with real technical content.
"""

So the system requires applicants to attempt to overreach? And what is 
the implication of that on public freedom?


"""
Where Amazon went over to the dark side was not in applying for the 
patent, but in enforcing it. A lot of companies (Microsoft, for 
example) have been granted large numbers of preposterously over-broad 
patents, but they keep them mainly for defensive purposes. Like nuclear 
weapons, the main role of big companies' patent portfolios is to 
threaten anyone who attacks them with a counter-suit.
"""

Another example of how patents have moved away from their original 
intent. They are no longer an incentive to invent. They are more like 
tactical business weapons. Used as defense by the very people who have 
caused this situation to come about.


"""
We tell the startups we fund not to worry about infringing patents, 
because startups rarely get sued for patent infringement. There are 
only two reasons someone might sue you: for money, or to prevent you 
from competing with them.
"""

So startups, the really innovative side of the business today, doesn't 
need patents to innovate? I find it very inconsistent myself. I thought 
most startups nowadays, who focus on innovation(rather than just 
providing "solutions"),  measure their success by the patents they 
manage to claim.

"""
If your startup grows big enough, however, you'll start to get sued, no 
matter what you do. If you go public, for example, you'll be sued by 
multiple patent trolls who hope you'll pay them off to go away.More on 
them later.

In other words, no one will sue you for patent infringement till you 
have money, and once you have money, people will sue you whether they 
have grounds to or not. So I advise fatalism. Don't waste your time 
worrying about patent infringement. You're probably violating a patent 
every time you tie your shoelaces.
"""

Well, this is exactly the problem we were talking about.


"""
We do advise the companies we fund to apply for patents, but not so they 
can sue competitors. Successful startups either get bought or grow into 
big companies. If a startup wants to grow into a big company, they 
should apply for patents to build up the patent portfolio they'll need 
to maintain an armed truce with other big companies. If they want to 
get bought, they should apply for patents because patents are part of 
the mating dance with acquirers.
"""

See how a system which was supposed to be a vehicle of invention is now 
more of a business weapon? 


"""
Frankly, it surprises me how small a role paten

Re: [ilugd] { Announcement/Invitation } General Meeting cum Discussion on Software Patents at IIT Delhi at 24 oct 2008

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 22 October 2008 18:11:48 Ajay Kumar wrote:
> Hi Sandeep,
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Sandip Bhattacharya 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > FYI,
> > Event added at the ILUGD page on upcoming.
> >
> > http://upcoming.yahoo.com/group/3268/
>
> Can the Sahana Localization sprint be added too there? November 1
> 2008. 11 am - 6 pm. at Sarai.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/sahana-sprint this thread has the announcement.

It is open to everyone. Go ahead and add the event and share with the 
ILUGD group there. I just wanted to give an example. :)

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] { Announcement/Invitation } General Meeting cum Discussion on Software Patents at IIT Delhi at 24 oct 2008

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 22 October 2008 17:09:26 narendra sisodiya wrote:
> On Behalf, of [EMAIL PROTECTED],
>I invite you all, for a "*General Meeting cum Discussion on
> Software Patents*"  at IIT Delhi. There will 1-2 presentation on this
> event. If you want to present something , most welcome.

FYI,
Event added at the ILUGD page on upcoming.

http://upcoming.yahoo.com/group/3268/

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] openi...@yahoo

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 22 October 2008 14:24:23 recruit it wrote:
> Hi All
> I am from Yahoo. Currently we are looking for senior Linux or unix
> administrators with the following experience Exp : 6-20 yrs(For
> Senior Positions)

This mail violates commercial mail guidelines of this list. Barrgavi, 
please add [commercial] tag in the subject in such mails to ilugd. 

> If interested pls send in your resume to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  

List folks, please do not send any mails to anybody claiming to be from 
yahoo but soliciting replies on a personal address. The official domain 
for yahoo  is yahoo-inc.com. @yahoo.com is a personal address. I hope 
you can make out what I am trying to say between the lines here.

- Sandip




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Re: [ilugd] Internal->External HDD: Possible ?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Sunday 19 October 2008 17:33:47 M.K.Pai wrote:
> Guys,
>
> Thanks a ton for all the suggestions.
>

If you have several of these internal hard disks available, there is 
another option - you get external adapters that connect to these bare 
hard disks. For 3.5" ones, they come with their own power supply. They 
interface via USB. Makes it easy for you to swap between several of 
these. 

I got one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Coolmax-15438-CD-350-COMBO-Multifunctional-Converter/dp/B000HZEX1K

With IDE going out of fashion, I have several years worth of accumulated 
old 3.5" hard disks. Instead of buying a casing for each of these, this 
converter was more cost effective.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Open Office 3.0 Online

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 15 October 2008 23:29:55 Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
> > > Doesn't Google Docs do that too?
> >
> > Yes, but it's closed source
> >
> > _
>
> Does that really matter for online applications? Even we use Gmail,
> Yahoo Mail, Flickr etc. which are all closed source? Just curious?
>

Regarding online service, people have various concerns:
1. Privacy: 
a. Data should be available to people the user gets to 
   choose. 
b. Personal Information should not be made available to thirds parties 
   without your approval (or at least anonymized or better aggregated). 

c. Personal information should only be handed over to authorities when 
   there is a reasonable law and order issue.
2. Data lock in: Similar to proprietary formats. How easy is it to 
retrieve your data with all the metadata you have put in over time.

3. Ease of Migration: How easy is it for you to take your data in an 
useful form and move to a different provider? e.g. wordpress.com allows 
you to export all your data to move to your own wordpress.org install.

The closed source part of online services is addressed by the Affero GPL 
v3 licence, but not too many software have actually been licenced that 
way. Even GPL v3 is ok with it (legally).

- Sandip





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Re: [ilugd] Understanding the GNU GPL definition of free software. Is The classification of free and commercial Linux Distribution is incorrect.?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thursday 16 October 2008 13:33:23 Gaurav Mishra wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > Seconded.  O moderator where are you?
> >
> > Wait, we don't have a moderator, just a list admin.
>
> Then we may need a moderator , trolling is at all time high recently
>

True. But actually before we start moderating for the first time, we 
need to come to a somewhat common definition of unacceptable activity. 
Sometimes people do jump the gun and call each other trolls even though 
I have found it acceptable.

Some people's definition of "trolling" is rehashing topics discussed in 
the past. I disagree.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Understanding the GNU GPL definition of free software. Is The classification of free and commercial Linux Distribution is incorrect.?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 15 October 2008 14:37:31 M.S.Yatnatti wrote:

> Disclaimer: This is not legal opinion. This is only for debate.


This is not even a debate. This is spam. 

I have had enough of your singular agenda of slandering Redhat and it's 
distribution policy, regardless of the opinions from everybody on this 
list (including members from FSF, Debian, Redhat, etc.).

If you have a commercial agenda behind this(which I have started 
suspecting), you should be banned from all community mailing lists. If 
it is just a matter of (misguided) activism, and you are not banned by 
this list anyway, I will have to filter your drivel to my junk folder 
and urge others to do the same. Everybody has the right to express 
their opinion on this list, but if the intention is not to talk in a 
constructive manner, and to bring up the same matter in multiple 
threads, you are just making this list unusable. And before people 
start unsubscribing because of the lowering of S/N, moderator should 
take some action.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] which mailing list sending/management/archiving software used for ilugd ?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 17:27:49 Nalin Savara wrote:
> Also, whats the difference between "distro version" versus "pristine
> version" ???

distro version - packaged version of a software distributed as part of a 
 distro.

pristine sources - the sources offered directly by the software 
   developer, unmodified to suit a distro. Generally 
   distributed in tar.{gz,bz2} format.

> Basically I want to do some things:
> (0) Alert me to messages that include my name OR specific words of
> interest to me

Not the work of a mailing list software. Rather an end user feature.

> (1) prevent messages from specific (irritating to me) threads from
> being sent to me;

Same.

> (2) and I also want to block messages from specific users and also
> from threads initiated by specific users

Same.

> (3) I want to make list more mobile friendly--- automatically clean
> out top-posts;
> (4) automatically transcribe SMS lingo OR maybe automatically

While seemingly useful, it is better done through extensions (if the 
mailing list software allows one) rather than a fork.

My personal belief is that mailing list software should do only one 
thing well - distribute mail. Some anti-abuse features are necessary, 
but policy implementations like (3) and (4) are better not attempted by 
technology but rather through social engineering. However an argument 
can be made that some list owners might want such control over their 
mailing lists.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] which mailing list sending/management/archiving software used for ilugd ?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 16:54:02 Nalin Savara wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> How are you ? Hope all well.
>
> Can someone tell me which mailing list sending/management/archiving
> software used for ilugd ?

Mailman. See the bottom of 
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd

>
> Also, incase I want to block mails from a specific user OR block
> specific threads from being sent to me--- how to do that ? (or is it
> not possible ?)

You can block people or mails at a mailing list level in mailman. For 
personalised filters, you would need to use your own local software 
like procmail.

>
> Also, was the software used for ilugd list a patched/modified one ?
> or is it the open source s/w just set up and used as-is without
> changes ?

Best to ask Suresh(I believe he still hosts the mail server). I think it 
was a distro version of mailman originally but Suresh replaced it with 
a pristine version sometime back.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Is it illegal to redistribute RHEL? Open Letter To Linux For You India print Magzine India

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

I believe that Mr. Yatnatti's arguments on this topic are very much 
relevant and definitely *not* a troll. His communication style might 
not please everyone though. :)

That said, for all the questions I had raised some weeks back against 
Redhat's ambiguous distribution policy, this thread by him and many 
other text have changed my perception of Redhat's distribution policy. 
I don't believe they are in violation of GPL, in fact they are using a 
unique combination of GPL and trademark law to accommodate, in their 
own way, both community and commercial interests. You can debate 
endlessly about your intepretation of the spirit of GPL but at least 
its words are not being violated.

You, of course, cannot put up Redhat's ISOs for download on bittorrent, 
but their trademark is only on the distribution of a few of the Redhat 
specific packages and not on its other components, which can be freely 
distributed and therefore satisfy the Free Software distribution 
guidelines. In fact, if you check this CentOs page, all the Redhat 
software source is freely available: 
http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=2. The Redhat 
specific packages which are non-free because of Redhat's trademark 
restrictions are made Free software by CentOS (by removing the 
trademarks) and can then be freely redistributed.


Mr. Yatnatti might be confusing software freedom with GPL or even FSF. 
GPL/FSF are not the only representatives of free software, even though 
they are its most prominent leaders. There are other interpretations of 
software freedom too, some not always agreed by all the proponents of 
the software freedom movement.

In fact, Debian has probably an even more stringent definition of 
freedom. By it's parameters, probably the RHL distribution would fail 
the freedom guidelines just like various mozilla foundation software 
like Firefox and Thunderbird have failed. That doesn't mean that 
Firefox and Mozilla are not "free" software. It just means that they 
fail someone else's (in this case Debian's) expectation of freedom.

Another frequent clash of interpretation of freedom is between the BSD 
and the Linux+GPL community.

Nobody is wrong in their expectations - they are just different ideas of 
what the software world should be.

So I am not sure whether you will ever succeed in convincing other's 
about Redhat's "violation" of GPL terms. They follow it to the T. They 
might not satisfy *your* idea of what software freedom should be but 
they are satisfying GPL's idea of freedom, and therefore they are not 
doing anything illegal.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] G.I.S.S. multimedia workshop at Sarai, Sat., 11 Oct., 11am onwards

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

>
> On 10/3/08, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >   So, the multimedia workshop is finally confirmed. Please
> > see the outline on the Wiki page at
> >  >Workshop>. Directions to Sarai, CSDS, are also
> > available there.
> >
> >   This will be more in the nature of an informal discussion,
> > rather than a formal workshop, though people are invited to
> > give presentations on any FOSS multimedia tools that they have
> > a familiarity. If interested in doing this, please drop me a
> > note, or edit the Wiki directly.
> >

Especially since the topic of this workshop is multimedia and there will 
probably be quite some equipment around, can someone take videos of the 
talks?

On a general basis, can ILUGD establish some sort of process to capture 
talks in all its events? I think equipment, bandwidth, etc. are much 
cheaper now than earlier. We can use any of the available video sharing 
services to offer CC based content for the benefit of others. What do 
you think? Is it too much to volunteer/organize?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thursday 02 October 2008 00:55:21 Atanu Datta wrote:
>
> All GNU documentation, including that of GNU make, are released under
> GNU FDL. May I know why Debian Free Software Guidelines considers it
> non-free?
>

http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml


I am not sure how current it is, but Manoj can clarify that. It is a 
rather poetic display of the clash between FSF's and Debian's 
interpretation of what freedom should be. :) Debian's points do matter, 
legally speaking, but if you take a step back and see what is 
happening, it sometimes makes you shake your head.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] RMS Says Cloud Computing Is Trap

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thursday 02 October 2008 00:19:51 Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
> I quite agree with RMS. When we work locally at least data is with
> us. Cloud computing followed by SaaS is a dangerous stuff. There can

I am not saying that I disagree with RMS about the software freedom 
dangers of cloud computing in the hand of proprietary companies. 

What I am disagreeing is with the FOSS world not attempting to even 
touch the technology because the closed source business model is the 
only one we see. The technology is really attractive, and there is no 
doubt that if the right FOSS business model is found, it would benefit 
a lot of people without compromising the software freedom that we have 
today.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] RMS Says Cloud Computing Is Trap

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 23:54:31 Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
> Today every company is talking about Cloud computing, but RMS has
> rejected as a trap and it truly is. How much sense does it make to
> adopt technologies pushed by some companies which could further lock
> us in. We are struggling to get out of non-free and jail created by
> MS and colonial cousins, before we could break that another jail is
> awaiting.
>

Well, I have been waiting to see the FOSS response to this for a while 
now. It is an interesting problem to solve. Of course, just calling it 
a trap doesn't suffice. You have to provide an alternative.

It is a very interesting technology which will obviously change the way 
many applications can work. It challenges the whole notion of how 
computing is done today. The only response to it from a FOSS POV is to 
provide an alternate business model. Something similar to how the SETI 
project(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_computing), or even Tor 
works.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 21:39:53 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> You are right. Ubuntu has not made my task easuier, or made
> the lives of my users any easier.  If anything, they are an obstacle
> int he way of people using my code to communicate issues they find in
> my code from getting to me, which is irksome.
>
> Since I do nto do free software for altruistic reasons, I do
> not see the benefit really of getting more unwashed masses into
> Linux. Really I don't.  They do not seem to be lifting the forks to
> feed the rest of us.

This was curious, so I dug around and read this: 
http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/india-irc.txt and seriously 
speaking, it was quite an eye opener. I have been trying to completely 
understand where you are coming from, and now I do. I am not sure 
though whether your views represent the rest of the Debian team.

Unlike what some people think around here, my defense of Ubuntu has got 
less to do with my fascination about it, and more about my conviction 
that it currently provides one of the better Linux alternatives in the 
market for the masses. 

You have a very valid alternative of the world in mind and unlike me you 
have contributed a lot to that alternative, and I respect that. 
However, the masses don't figure in your utopia, but it does in mine. 
So I will close my end of the discussion at this point, because it is 
obvious that we can never reach a conclusion.

- Sandip




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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 23:34:27 Atanu Datta wrote:
> On Wed, October 1, 2008 11:25 pm, Sandip Bhattacharya said:
> > * Any particular reason why nobody from Debian or elsewhere has
> > actually cribbed about RHN not being open source?
>
> Because RHN's upstream, i.e., Spacewalk is open source -- exactly the
> same reason why no one *cribs* about Star Office, which is based on
> OOo, being closed source. Does Launchpad also have an upstream that
> is open?
>

My apologies. I have not been keeping up with the developments in the RH 
world, and hence this analogy. I just read a bit about it and I take my 
words back.

http://www.press.redhat.com/2008/06/19/rhn-satellite-goes-open-source-project-spacewalk/

Of course, it is probably still relevant to some degree that it took 
them seven years to reach here, and even this is quite a recent 
development. Of course, nothing changes the fact that this is by itself 
a very laudable initiative, and addresses one of my long standing 
grouse against RH.

- Sandip





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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 22:22:11 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
> So, it is software that helps to provide a service. That
> piece of software is non-free. I think that matters.
>
> Whether the software runs as a one shot unix like
> input/output filter, or it generates web pages, or it is daemonized
> and
>  handles requests (like, say, an X Windows server), it is still a
>  computer program that runs and manipulated bits. If it is not free
>  software, it is like any other free to use closed source software.
>
> And having the major original pieceof software Ubuntu writes
>  being closed source  matters, whether it is or is not a daemon. Free
>  software is not about it being free to use. It is about it being
> free to modify and distribute.
>

* Any particular reason why nobody from Debian or elsewhere has actually 
  cribbed about RHN not being open source? 

* Leaving aside Launchpad, do you seriously believe that whenever 
someone writes a web application to provide a service to people, the 
author is obliged to spend time trying to package it as a general 
purpose software which can be reused by others for other kind of 
applications?

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 21:09:27 Karanbir Singh wrote:
>
> you guys really need to start looking at stuff before commenting on
> it. if you really dont know what launchpad is, a bit of research
> would be well in order. eg, components that went into launchpad, and
> are used elsewhere in canonical's projects still remain closed
> source. A simple 5 min google for 'launchpad open source' would give
> you plenty of foo to roost over, even looking at the wikipedia page
> for launchpad and its talk pages should have some info for you.

So I looked at Launchpad again to see if there is earth shattering that 
I have been missing and that everybody else have got. And my question 
still stands. Before jumping your gun and showing your impatience with 
anybody disagreeing with you and making a complete fool of yourself, it 
would suit you well to take a minute to read what they might be asking.

As per Wikipedia:
"Launchpad is a web application and web site supporting software 
 development, particularly that of free software. "

It helps in managing software components, so it is ofcourse a piece of 
software. But to people using it, it is a service. Get what I am 
talking about? Do you understand software as a service? Here is a 
comparison of different such *services*.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_software_hosting_facilities#cite_note-3

Interestingly, compare it to how sourceforge has been working all these 
years. Unlike Sourceforge, it does not require you to grant a perpetual 
proprietary licence if you upload code. It has not stopped zillions of 
prominent free software to using it for their development. 

I really find this whole business of using launchpad as a beating stick 
really disgusting. And like you, I too don't like wasting too much of 
my time with obsessively negative people who don't ever have anything 
constructive to say.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 21:09:27 Karanbir Singh wrote:
> To be honest, I have better things to do than feed foo down clueless
> fanboys.

I am continuously amused by the singular acerbic tone in all your mails. 
Sure, you don't like to feed clueless fanboys like me. But you sure 
keep replying to our mails to keep your reputation in place. :)

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 19:23:44 Karanbir Singh wrote:
> Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> >> Launchpad  isnt that closed source itself ?
> >
> > Closed source what? Software? Can you point me where I can download
> > it?
>
> Exactly. Isnt that a part of what the point is - that their
> development inhouse isnt really open at all ? Even the one product
> they have which can be downloaded isnt open source at all.

You don't seem to have understood my question. What exactly are you 
implying is close sourced? A piece of software that is being 
distributed or otherwise commercially sold? Or the code behind a 
service that is being commercially exploited? 

- Sandip



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[ilugd] (Fw) FOSS.IN agenda for this year

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

foss.in is trying to change it's focus (again :) ) this year, and they are 
planning 
for something quite ambitious. In a way it is good for events to carve their 
own niche instead of having the same general outlook in each of them. 
Any comments?

- Sandip


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/foss-in/message/5219


From: Atul Chitnis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: FOSS.IN/2008: The Omelette Post :)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:51:06 +0530 (IST)

All:

A lot of people have noticed that unlike in previous years, we are not as
loud about FOSS.IN as we usually are. Now that the Call for Participation
is about to be published, it is time to explain why FOSS.IN/2008 is going
to be different from earlier incarnations.

First a quick reminder: FOSS.IN/2008 happens November 25-29, 2008, in
Bangalore, India. The website is at http://foss.in.

EVENT FOCUS
---

FOSS.IN has never been about advocacy, or philosophical discussions. While
such discussions may have their place, they steal valuable bandwidth when
it comes to getting things done. Especially here in India, where we tend
to lean towards political and religious aspects more easily than we tend
to roll up our sleeves and get some work done, it is important to
understand that FOSS.IN is meant to achieve tangible results.

With this in mind, FOSS.IN/2007 (last year's event) did not accept talks
that did not deliver practical, technical knowledge related to FOSS. And
the talks had to be delivered by actual contributors to the project being
discussed.

Also, FOSS.IN is NOT a newbie event. A "newbie" is defined as someone who
has no skills or knowledge or experience that would allow him or her to
immediately contribute to FOSS development. As has been repeatedly
explained to anyone who would listen - there are lots of newbie oriented
events all through the year, all over India, and people should be geting
their introductions to FOSS and their initial learning at such events,
including at user group meetings.

However, I personally was still unhappy with last years' results. Despite
the fact that we made it clear that we did not want to see elementary
stuff being covered at FOSS.IN, many of the talks were just that. The
Projects Days were very popular, but FOSS.IN is not about popularity, it
is about results.

And the bottom line is that while there was a measureable increase in
people getting involved in FOSS contribution, the quality left a lot to be
desired. Most new contributors focused only on low hanging fruit, such as
translations, and distro-specific packaging. If people got involved with
code, it was usually bug fixes and code maintenance.

While all these activities are extremely important, they do not need an
event like FOSS.IN to be triggered off - these are things one can get
involved with instantly, without really asking anyone, or attending a
talk.

FOSS.IN is far more ambitious, and is definitely not meant to cater to the
equivalent of "outsourcing" code/package maintenance.

Our event is meant to highlight Indian contribution to Free and Open
Source Software - not just bug fixes, but real code contributions, real
innovation, real projects.

Last year, we changed the event slogan from

"Technology for a Free World"

(that we had used since Linux Bangalore/2001) to Linus Torvalds' immortal
oneliner:

"Talk is Cheap, Show Me the Code"

This, in no uncertain terms, firmly declares the focus of FOSS.IN.

Effective this year, FOSS.IN will focus on developers, and results. It
will highlight credible efforts by people in India contributing to FOSS,
and will bring together developers at peer level, to allow them to
interact, discuss, develop and deliver.

"Delivery" does not mean mere bug fixing. Delivery will be new features to
existing applications, completely new subsystems (e.g. file systems,
device drivers, etc.), (re)design of systems and applications, etc.

Now I understand that many people will feel left out. There will be howls
from the detractors about us abandoning the basis for Free and Open Source
Software, and us being "Anti-FOSS". This is because in their minds, we
must always cater only to beginners, and "bring more people into the
fold".

Thank you, but that line of thinking was old when someone said that "Linux
is cancer" and "Anti-American" (and I think there were a few chairs
involved, too). Just because we choose to do things differently does not
mean that we are doing it wrong.

Yes, we realise that this will reduce the number of people who may come to
the event. Maybe we will be 500 people, maybe 1000. But that is OK. We are
trying to produce results that are measurable by our yardsticks
(active/increased contributors out of India), not those invariably used by
others ("4.91 quantillion participants").

At FOSS.IN/2008, we want to see the best of the best from India. We want
to see the people who actually write the code, and who ARE contributing,
interact face to

Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 16:35:56 Gaurav Mishra wrote:
> And if you think that the Free software awareness Ubuntu has brought
> doesn`t qualify in being in Free software ecosystem , Then my friend
> you are wrong , Because then you bring to the conclusion that "FSF
> has no meaning of existence even"
>
> Will love to know *specifically* were i am wrong !

Actually, Gaurav, this is less of an FSF and more of a Debian issue. So 
no point in dragging FSF into this debate. :)

Manoj has a point in Ubuntu having problems fixing patches upstream. It 
might be true, but certainly not intentional. Ubuntu's benevolent 
dictator - Mark talks about Ubuntu's perspective of the problem here: 
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/145 . You can certainly make 
out that he also agrees with the basic premise that changes should go 
upstream. But he also mentions atleast one aspect of the problem Ubuntu 
faces:

> In the month of April 2008, I found the following bug counts for
> large FLOSS projects: Upstreams:  Mozilla 5,334 OpenOffice
> 1,076
> Gnome 5,364
> KDE   1,335
> Total:13,109
> Distributions:
> Ubuntu13,064
> Debian5,103
>
> With hindsight, April was possibly a bad choice, because it was an
> Ubuntu release month so there’s usually a small spike in the number
> of bugs filed. It would be interesting to see the stats for other
> distributions, and projects, over a full year. But the general
> picture is clear - within our family of distributions, Ubuntu carries
> the brunt of the load w.r.t. bug tracking, triage and patch
> management - not only for our users, but for a broad cross-section of
> the open source stack.

The numbers are clear. Especially for a distro which has made itself a 
mission of releasing every six months, handling an order of magnitude 
more bugs than other projects is certainly an issue. It is no excuse 
for not sending patches upstream, but people in this thread have 
oversimplified the process of actually sending patches upstream. Mark 
talks about it a bit in that post (read, ensuring that fixes get made 
upstream in the required time needs more than technical skills ;) ).

As Manoj has pointed out, there is probably a problem right now, and he 
might be right about it. My take is that it is not always an 
intentional thing but more of a case of a problem in managing the a 
project of the scale of Ubuntu. 

But, again, bitching to the world about how Ubuntu has been *leeching* 
from Debian does certainly not help their case ( or Ubuntu's). For two 
distributions which share so much and have quite a bit of overlap in 
goals, it certainly is not an effective way of co-operation in fixing 
this issue. I actually makes me suspect if the Debian folks are 
interested in a solution at all. It seems more like they are quite ok 
with Ubuntu not being there at all, regardless of whether Ubuntu has 
made any difference to the FOSS world. Sad, really, for a distro having 
such lofty goals.

- Sandip




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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 20:36:02 Arun SAG wrote:
> yeah sure..sorry for that...By the way here is the link
> http://lwn.net/Articles/293906/
>

Strange that you quote that article for the accusation about Ubuntu and 
the only takeaway that you had was that "it is not contributing". Maybe 
you have not read the article in full, but it actually presents a quite 
well-balanced view on those accusations.

I quote a snippet here:

"""
There is no doubt that Ubuntu could do better than it has. But we should 
not lose track of what Ubuntu has done. Ubuntu has created a 
distribution which appeals to a whole new class of Linux users. The 
fact that much of this work was done elsewhere notwithstanding, Ubuntu 
has shown that a Linux system can wear a friendlier, easier-to-use 
face. In the process, it has made Debian suitable for a larger class of 
users. Ubuntu has shown that a Debian-based distribution can make 
regular, stable releases and still ship contemporary software. Ubuntu 
has lived up to its promises of support, including providing 
top-quality security support. And all of this is happening in a way 
that, we are told, should become commercially self-sustaining at some 
point. 
"""




- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] LDAP Server

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 20:12:50 tarun singhal wrote:
> problem facing in the root.ldif file
> after adding new entry: "uid=root,ou=People,dc=example,dc=com"
> i.e.  ldap_add: No such object (32)
>
>
> ==
> file : root.ldif
> ==
> dn: uid=root,ou=People,dc=example,dc=com
> uid: root
> cn: Manager

>
> dn: uid=operator,ou=People,dc=example,dc=com
> uid: operator
> cn: operator
> objectClass: account
> objectClass: posixAccount
> objectClass: top
> objectClass: shadowAccount

Has been years since I have touched this. Have you created the entries 
for "dc=example,dc=com" and "ou=People, dc=example,dc=com" before 
trying to add root.ldif?

Take a look at the openldap tutorials (e.g. 
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2003/03/27/ldap_ab.html) to learn 
more about the actualy sequence for initializing the database.

- Sandip

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[ilugd] Linux criticisms (was) Re: What do you think about this blog ?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 20:14:50 Arun SAG wrote:
> I came across this blog..What are your comments..
>
> http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/


With the help of the site above, I came across another - which seems 
quite a bit less foul and juvenile, and where the author somewhat knows 
more about what exactly the problem with Linux is.

http://elliotth.blogspot.com/

In fact, I found this post quite a well written criticism of the problem 
with Linux desktop usability. 

http://elliotth.blogspot.com/2008/09/desktop-linux-suckage-wheres-our-steve.html

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] What do you think about this blog ?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 20:14:50 Arun SAG wrote:
> I came across this blog..What are your comments..
>
> http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/

I think it is quite an interesting perspective, presented in a ... 
uh ... very "temperate" manner. ;) Well, it would be good for the Linux 
community if it can handle some criticism. Besides for a change, the 
guy writing this is not just mouthing expletives but actually providing 
lots of references for what he believes in. I respect that.

Interestingly, look at what he said about Greg's comment recently on 
Ubuntu which was discussed very recently on this list.

http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/09/free-as-long-as-you-give-back.html
(No images. But we warned, the text isn't work friendly)

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Linux Software Installer Howto

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 15:59:49 Nalin Savara wrote:
> Is there some script or package--- with which I can package it the
> way one packages MSI files on windows-- so that the script/installer
> copies the jar file into appropriate directories-- and creates
> desktop and
> Applications-menu shortcuts to the jar file ?

Quite a few here. Some are Opensource.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_installation_software

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 06:18:32 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> And Ubuntu's effort in feeding back patches to Debian have
> not really impressed the Debian developers that much (apart, perhaps,
> from those being paid by Mark).

So, let me get this straight. You find the efforts of full-time 
dedicated Canonical staff contributing back to Debian ok. Your problem 
is with the *users* not contributing back to Debian? And that surprises 
you? 

Maybe you have forgotten the profile of end-users that current crop of 
Linux distros like Ubuntu, Fedora address. Debian requires non-trivial 
understanding of a desktop OS from it's users. So it's users are more 
likely to contribute back with quite some detail. The kind of interface 
that Ubuntu/Fedora is moving to, is precisely to remove that kind of 
technical expectation from the end users. 

Given that goal, it is but obvious that the kind of feedback you people 
will get will be less detailed. Take a look at the bugs of Ubuntu as 
compared to the bugs of Debian and you will find the difference. The 
bugs of Ubuntu are generally like "this does not work! somebody please 
fix this!". The bugs of Debian are like "this does not work! I looked 
here and there and this is what I found. Here is what you might be 
doing".

It is a qualitative difference. And it is inevitable. That is what is 
going to happen when you take Linux to the masses. Face it! :) If you 
disagree and say you do not want such users, I am sorry, but you and I 
see different futures for Linux.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] { Idea } Taking ScreenShot While installing Linux OS

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 14:25:47 narendra sisodiya wrote:
> >
> > debian-installer has such a thing built in.
> > http://wiki.debian.org/ScreenShots#debian-instsaller-gui
>
> Cool, I was not aware of this fact, never noticed, ( as I am a fedora
> guy )
>

AFAIR, Anaconda has screenshot capability for quite a long time now. I 
can't locate the appropriate documentation right now, but there is a 
keyboard shortcut for it, I think.

In fact, it even supports automated screenshot capability with kickstart 
which will take screenshots at every step.  
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Kickstart#Chapter_2._Kickstart_Options

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Sunday 28 September 2008 21:35:26 Karanbir Singh wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > swapnil, sometimes a frustrated human says much without knowing a
> > little about(right now its you). if you got time, your valuable
> > time, please move your as* and look at launchpad. Remember , you
> > should try to look and find light, rather than complaining the
> > darkness.
>
> Launchpad  isnt that closed source itself ?

Closed source what? Software? Can you point me where I can download it?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Canonical Not A Great Contributor

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 06:14:31 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
> I don't think that anyone is arguing that canonical, and
> ubuntu, do not provide a useful product, nor that the product they
> provide is popular.
>
> The point is whether they are good citizens in the free
> software community, and part of _that_ ethos is feeding user feedback
> (positive or negative), and code changes, back upstream.
>
> I can't say I am impressed by canonical's efforts in that
> arena.

I don't see a reason why every company needs to contribute in the same 
point of an OS stack. If the focus of Ubuntu is to build upon an 
existing OS stack and provide usability at the top most level - that is 
a compelling product strategy as well. Criticizing it for not 
contributing as well to the kernel is like saying LUGs don't serve a 
purpose because it's people don't send kernel patches.

Also remember, that this is the only commercial backed distribution 
which is completely free - you cannot compare it with Redhat, 
Novell/SuSe, Linspire, etc. because they all work with a different 
business model. 

I find it laudable (till now that is, I have had a heart break some 
years back with RH) that a commercial company bases its complete 
viability on a product which is actually Free.

As far as being a good FOSS citizen, I have always believed that helping 
fixing bugs upstream is better than having distro specific patches. I 
must admit, I cannot say how well Ubuntu does in this regard, however I 
have seen many launchpad bugs referencing the fact that a bug has been 
filed upstream. Unless I see proper data (and not merely 
opinions/hunches misrepresented as facts) as to whether the Ubuntu's 
community has not helped in fixing these bugs (and not merely reporting 
them - which isn't bad per se), I cannot accept that they haven't been 
of much help to the FOSS world.

And as far as open sourcing of components like Launchpad is concerned - 
it is a branded service for goodness sake. Is it being distributed 
without source code? Isn't there a commitment from Canonical to open 
source it? Why don't you go ask other companies provide online services 
to the community to open source their server software? Quite a few of 
those come to mind!

I actually find this kind of intra-community bickering in the Linux 
community very disturbing. What is the problem with all you folks ? 
this is a Free Linux distro which has improved visibility of Linux in 
the OS market. This distro is on your side of the Free software 
revolution. It hasn't compromised Free principles like what Linspire 
did, and yet faces more widespread criticism from the FOSS community. 
What is it that truly disturbs you?

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Windblows on Software Freedom Day

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 23 September 2008 00:47:46 Raj Mathur wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 Sep 2008, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> > [snip]
> > At the risk of a flame war debating between GPL and BSD licences,
> > this is exactly the difference between the two licences, IMO of
> > course.
> >
> > * GPL restricts complete freedom, by putting in conditions, for the
> > higher goal of software freedom for the society.
> > * BSD (w/o advert. clause) strives for complete freedom. They share
> > the same goals as GPL - software freedom, but give further freedom
> > to users - the choice to use whatever licence they want for their
> > derivatives.
>
> GPL and similar strong copyleft licences actually aim to protect the
> rights of the users, by ensuring that the users always have options
> to enhance, modify and adapt the package to their needs.
>
> BSD and similar licences aim to protect the rights of the
> programmers, by ensuring that programmers can do whatever they want
> with the software, up to the extent of taking freedom away from their
> users (and even other programmers).

It is always confusing in such discussions if we use the same terms to 
mean different things. If you consider the following definition of the 
terms:

* Author being the person who wrote the original program.

* User being the person who has obtained the program and is using it. 

* Community being the other users who will use the improved program in 
the future. Those who use it now in its present form are not affected 
in any way by either of these licences.

* Freedom in this context is the freedom to benefit from the 
improvements fed back into the software by it's users.

Rewriting your text now:

> GPL and similar strong copyleft licences actually aim to protect the
> rights of the community, by ensuring that the community always have 
> options to enhance, modify and adapt the package to their needs. 


> BSD and similar licences aim to protect the rights of the
> users, by ensuring that users can do whatever they want
> with the software, up to the extent of taking freedom away from the 
> community. 

Raj, does it feel as if I am putting words in your mouth? :-P

In other words, GPL says that "I am being nice to you. It is now your 
duty to be nice to others .. or else. I want a society where everybody 
has to be nice to everybody. No exceptions.". 

BSD says, "I have been nice to you. It is your call whether you would 
like to be nice to others. I will remain nice to you regardless.".

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Windblows on Software Freedom Day

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Monday 22 September 2008 01:00:18 Gora Mohanty wrote:
> (b) Should Sarai, as an avowedly FOSS organisation, use
> proprietary software in a public demo? My opinion is no,
> but again I believe that this should be done through peer
> pressure, rather than outright banning. The person in
> question uses Linux/KDE on his desktop, which is a large
> part of his computing, and dual-boots at home due to his
> daughter's addiction to KDE games. He has been considering
> switching his laptop too to Linux, so maybe here is an
> opportunity.

At the risk of a flame war debating between GPL and BSD licences, this 
is exactly the difference between the two licences, IMO of course.

* GPL restricts complete freedom, by putting in conditions, for the 
higher goal of software freedom for the society.
* BSD (w/o advert. clause) strives for complete freedom. They share the 
same goals as GPL - software freedom, but give further freedom to 
users - the choice to use whatever licence they want for their 
derivatives.

Both have their own approaches to a common goal( One should not fault 
any one for the other).So do we, in deciding how to take this day 
forward.

My belief is that software freedom advocacy should not be a black and 
white "here, or not any where" approach. For most people, freedom is a 
long journey - from the initial steps into using a FOSS browser, then 
to a FOSS mail client ... hopefully eventually to a FOSS OS. Every step 
on the way of freedom should be congratulated and encouraged.

Firefox has arguably done more to the popularity of FOSS than any other 
software in history. A whole lot of people, who would otherwise had 
never tried FOSS voluntarily, have come to believe that something free 
can be so good. The next  step is to make them believe how the "free" 
part is more than just money.

There is such a long way to go. Acting pedantic and orthodox about 
freedom is never going to help the cause. 

Besides seeing parts of the world they are familiar with during these 
presentations is only going to make new entrants more comfortable and 
more likely to try them out. Moving to a different OS is a life 
changing activity very few have the stomach to take. Actually, if they 
see everything in Linux, they would probably be more detached from the 
subject, as they would have the mental barrier - "to use this, I first 
have to change my OS". They will nod, but would be afraid to take the 
big step before it.

Infiltrating the world of Windows and Mac with FOSS, getting them hooked 
on free software and eventually tempting them to try the OS itself, 
might just be a more effective way to get the masses in. (notice how 
the last line looks like something billg@ might have said about his OS 
several years back ;) )

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Licence schemes for the Ideas !!!

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Friday 19 September 2008 12:43:06 narendra sisodiya wrote:
> Hey, I got a idea that "can we GPL our ideas" ??
> Like normally I use to get a large number of ideas which I will not
> able to implement in this life. But I want somebody should implement
> those ideas. But I do not want that somebody should use them as
> patent or propitiatory work. infact if Ideas are in GPL public domain
> then everybody is allowed to implement it. So in the current licence
> schemes , "can i publish my ideas under GPL or similar licence".
> for example , let suppose I will a rocking idea for energy saving
> system and will tell the way of implement it,But i will not implement
> it, I want other companies to implement it.
> So is it possible to deliver the rocking ideas in public domain
> insuring that it will not be used for patent or similar purpose??

IANAL.

First of all, public domain is equivalent to no licence at all, and 
could probably only theoretically prevent software patents. The only 
way to *ensure* that it cannot be patented is someone going through 
every patent application from this day onwards to check if it matches 
any of your ideas in the public domain. Of course, it is not practical 
and so you can stop thinking on this line. :)

Also, unless your idea is overtly visible, you can never ensure that it 
is not hidden by implementations protected by trade secrets.

My suggestion would be that, if you really interested in the world 
benefiting from your ideas, to worry less about who can exploit it and 
instead just go ahead and publish it in some way. The form of 
publishing(books, art,etc.) could be copyrighted and put in public 
domain or some of the creative common licenses. 

What you should worry about is how to disseminate it as much as possible 
(and therefore it is important you use as liberal a distribution 
licence as possible) as the more widespread it becomes, the better 
protection it will get against some one trying to patent it in some 
way.

- Sandip

P.S. The world of patents is full of "jugaads"(we call them hacks, 
BTW ;) ). So don't let it stop you. :)




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Re: [ilugd] sms speak in mailing lists (was) Come join me on Jaypee Institute of Information Technology University OSUM on Open Source University Meetup...

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Friday 19 September 2008 13:05:55 Nalin Savara wrote:
>
> with the next 1 billion internet users expected to access net frm
> mobile devices, IMHO it's the ones that make sharp remarks abt SMS
> lingo that need a SMS dictionary--- rather than me.

If you had been using a language, then it would be a lesser problem. The 
point is that 'SMS lingo' is not a *language*. If all you people 
writing sms-speak would write the same word the same way all the time, 
you would probably have a better case to argue about it being an 
acceptable form of communication and perhaps, the rest of us would 
cringe and accept it as yet another inevitable sign of us getting 
older. But you do not, and every person writing in such a form has a 
different interpretation of how to communicate. Actually, I would 
consider this as "noise", in a community where written communication is 
the major mode of how people interact.

So till sms-speak becomes a "language", it is going to be considered to 
be an inferior and an unwanted form of communication here. Nobody is 
going to ban people writing in such a form, but people who could have 
had a more fruitful discussion with you, might not.

P.S. I consider this discussion to be very relevant to this list, as 
this is a frequently discussed topic (and is actually mentioned in out 
list guidelines) and am therefore not marking this mail OT.


I am actually a bit surprised how a mere collective suggestion from 
people about writing in the official language of this list has to go 
towards accusations of genuflecting to the British, especially when you 
are arguing for a (probably american) variation of this language 
itself. :) It has been 60+ years since we sent the Britishers out, and 
the fact that we are still using English should amply show that it is 
as native to this land by now as any other state language. In fact, 
more people use English virtually as their first language than there 
are native speakers for many dialects in this country (citation 
needed :-P )


- Sandip

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[ilugd] [OT] Re: Come join me on Jaypee Institute of Information Technology University OSUM on Open Source University Meetup...

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Friday 19 September 2008 13:05:55 Nalin Savara wrote:
>
> It's just a opinion--- based on fact--- but if chat lingo can be
> used, then why not SMS lingo rather than queen's english ?

What exactly is the fact out here? :)

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Come join me on Jaypee Institute of Information Technology University OSUM on Open Source University Meetup...

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Friday 19 September 2008 00:48:26 Raj Mathur wrote:
> Who all want to contribute to the ``ILUGD Buy NS A Spelling
> Dictionary'' Fund?  I'm putting in Rs 500 for starters ;)

There are more than one active NS on this list. One of them is 
definitely the candidate. ;)

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Fwd: [ILUG-GOA] RedHat/Fedora Crisis

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thursday 11 September 2008 20:25:43 Mani A wrote:
>  "Sudhanwa Jogalekar"  wrote:
> > Fwd: RedHat/Fedora Crisis...
>
> We had a long discussion on this in the Ambassador's list
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2008-Septembe
>r/msg00195.html
>
> The article is misleading and has factual inaccuracies. It can
> however be said that the Fedora infrastructure team does not have a
> proper policy in place for crisis management.
>
>

Not disputing what you said, but could you point me to an email, article 
or webpage which explains the inaccuracies of the OP? The thread you 
mentioned talks about just the opposite - ambassadors sad about the 
event and more or less agreeing to the OP.

The only point I have against the article is that it doesn't mention if 
the said breach was known by any Fedora leaders not working at Redhat. 
If Redhat came to know about it from their own sources, and decided not 
to expose it to public, it was still bad but atleast people in the 
project who do not have a "conflict of interest" should not be taking a 
hit on their credibility. How many such people are actually on the 
board? Do they have to sign any confidentiality clause with Redhat?

- Sandip

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[ilugd] Linux distro for regular users (was) Re: RPM bundle Packaging System -- was --( Re: Need Fedora 9 DVD. )

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wednesday 10 September 2008 07:45:15 Ashish Shukla आशीष शुक्ल wrote:
> If lack of more no. of packages in repositories are problem, use
> Gentoo GNU/Linux, which is a source-based distro. And customize your
> Gentoo GNU/Linux according to your flags.

Ok, so Gentoo would also satisfy the condition of having adequate number 
of applications in the official "repository".

As soon as you use flags though, you are no longer a regular user, but 
start moving to being a "power-user". Do you understand where I am 
getting at?

>
> > 2. Consider any application which is not available in the
> > repository as simply "not available". It doesn't exist. Kaput. Live
> > with it. Resist all attempts to download and compile, especially
> > packages which deviate even one step away
> > from "./configure --prefix=/usr/local/$NAME;make;make install".
>
> If the port is not in repositories, writing an ebuild (installation
> recipe from source code) will take < 5 minutes, if it uses the
> autotools procedure.

Right, good to have, but that would not be useful to people who just 
want to use the OS without understanding what autotools is, isn't it?

>
> I've been using Gentoo GNU/Linux since 2007 with no noticeable
> issues.
>
> In case there're any bugs you find, which you can think you can fix
> it, you already have the source, so simply extract it somewhere, fix
> the bug, create a patch, and post it to bug tracker and upstream.
> With binary package based distros, you've to download sources
> separately :).

True for all Linux distros. However, not an advantage that I would talk 
about when I am introducing someone who wants to just use Linux.

This thread has been going several ways, and just to clarify the 
direction where my arguments are, I have changed the subject. Let us 
say, I want to introduce Linux as an alternative to a person who has 
got tired of using Windows Vista. A person who simply uses it for his 
say to day work like mail, office, multimedia, etc., for example like 
my fictitious college going cousin who aspires to be a movie director 
one day, principled enough not to pirate software and yet too poor to 
afford the commercial programs. I tell him about 
cinerella,kdenline,kino etc. and he is willing to format his brand new 
desktop and go in for linux if it is not too much of a bother. How can 
you sell Linux to him?

- The fact that you can download the source and fix your own thing makes 
no difference to him. Zilch. He might appreciate the option, but his 
interest ends there.

- The fact that you can optimise the OS while installing doesn't work 
too well too. He wants to do a degree in communication, not computer 
science.

- The most important criteria for him would be install the OS without 
knowing what partitions are. So the last thing that he needs to know is 
how to do dual boots.

- The next important thing is how to install applications that he wants. 
Most linux distros have the tools for it, but the official repository 
size matters here. You cannot send him over to a search for a good 
third party repository.

- For support  you can point him to any of the forums of the linux 
distros. What matters here is which distro forums are more friendly 
to newbies.

- You can instill some FOSS etiquettes to him by mentioning that he is 
likely to get better responses if he gives enough evidence that he has 
tried fixing his problem before giving up, etc. etc.

I dare say that most of the people on this list are not at all the role 
models for people intending to use Linux only as a user. So stop giving 
the argument that because you never faced a problem with so and so 
distro, they wont face one. Most of the people here are either at guru 
level or power user level of competence. It takes such a level to even 
find this mailing list and join it. :)

The first step of moving to put new users at ease is to acknowledge the 
work left to be done. Being intemperate fan boys  doesn't help the 
collective work before us - divided we fall.

I understand the inadequacy of even the option(s) I am suggesting. 
Things are not too smooth in any distro right now, no matter how much 
its legions of fans would like you to believe. A supportive and 
positive community who understands the needs and *limitations* of its 
users would help.

If your interest in advocacy of Linux doesn't extend to the audience I 
have talked about in this mail - non-technical users, we are not even 
talking about the same thing, so we can stop debating about this.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] How to use Fedora 9 for Commerical use

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 09 September 2008 20:22:18 Harish Pillay wrote:
> Just so that the perception is not perpetuated, Fedora is not a poor
> cousin of anything.  It is the leading distribution that is
> completely free (both in libre and beer) and open to anyone to add. 
> RHEL is downstream to Fedora.  If Fedora does not exist, RHEL does
> not as well.
>

I respect Redhat well enough not to start off a war of mails against it. 
So I would just stop with this last mail on the subject. Just to 
clarify why I mentioned Fedora to be *projected*(not necessarily 
actually being) as a poor cousin:

1. Imagine how a SOHO business would react when a small time solution 
provider pitches a solution based on Fedora and the client reads this: 
http://www.redhat.com/rhel/migrate/whichlinux/

2. Actually being at a Linux exhibition in India where RH sales 
executives talk to potential buyers about their products vis-a-vis 
Fedora.

For the non-RH fanboys on the list, note that I am not trashing Fedora 
on its competence - I don't find it too different from my current 
distro of choice - Ubuntu.

And I am comparing it to Ubuntu only as to how it is projected by its 
primary sponsor Canonical. They provide commercial support on exactly 
the same software that you are otherwise getting to use for free.

It makes a lot of difference to solutions providers like the one 
Narendra is talking about. If I had been sending promo matter for my 
solution based on Fedora, I would be uncomfortable sending them a link 
to redhat.com, but I can confidently send a link to ubuntu.com if my 
solution is based on it.

- Sandip




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Re: [ilugd] RPM bundle Packaging System -- was --( Re: Need Fedora 9 DVD. )

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 09 September 2008 21:27:19 Karanbir Singh wrote:
> > 1. Choose a distro which has a good default repository of packages.
> > I stopped using Fedora years back because it only had the Ubuntu
> > equivalent of "main" and everything else had to be managed by
> > downloading from third party repository like freshrpms etc., which
> > had their own set of incompatibilities. At the risk of starting a
> > flame war, I would suggest using any debian based distro(including
> > debian itself) , enabling universe/multiverse equivalent of
> > repositories in the distro and take advantage of their huge
> > repositories.
>
> Surely this situation has changed recently ? Also the level of QA
> done for the pkgs in fedora at the moment is much higher and better
> organised than ubuntu.
>
> Personally I think Ubuntu is a total and complete waste of time. for
> everyone involved. Except a few of the guys at Canonical who are only
> sitting back and laughing at the fanatical religions zealots that
> seem to have spurned out of the woodwork.

Well, it would have been nicer if your arguments against ubuntu were a 
bit more specific than a sweeping "waste of time". Also, it would have 
been helpful to have explained, if your intention was indeed to 
convince me otherwise, exactly how the specific problem I mentioned 
about Fedora some time back has "changed".  Guess how one can make out 
zealots? ;)

>
> > 2. Consider any application which is not available in the
> > repository as simply "not available". It doesn't exist. Kaput. Live
> > with it. Resist all attempts to download and compile, especially
> > packages which deviate even one step away
> > from "./configure --prefix=/usr/local/$NAME;make;make install".
>
> I take it that you havent actually ever used Linux in a production
> environment then. Even for pkgs that *do* exist in repos - most
> packages are encouraged to make sensible choices for good defaults,
> not to fit every use case. For the use case, its common to see pkgs
> redone inhouse to suit taste and requirements.

You must have missed out my rider at the top of my mail - I was talking 
for the benefit of a regular user. One who doesn't need to be a power 
user to use Linux. Your use case seems to be quite different from 
Narendra's friend/brother/cousin out there which I was addressing.

BTW, in a typical SOHO environment or even large companies which use 
Linux boxes for specific uses like mail servers, database servers, 
etc., what % of packages are actually redone? In most cases, only the 
ones specific to the use of the box are actually looked at carefully 
and configured appropriately. Most organizations out there cannot 
afford to have a separate local branch of packages where 
vendor/security changes are merged and maintained separately.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] RPM bundle Packaging System -- was --( Re: Need Fedora 9 DVD. )

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Tuesday 09 September 2008 19:36:41 narendra sisodiya wrote:
>I am not saying i have a solution , but something new system
> should come so that common user, who do not have Internet, will NEVER
> in life  say "i have a dependancy error" and able to install
> *"dreamware"* by one click.
>
>   I know yum and other do excellent job BUT for COMMON student
> like me (2 year before) who do not have internet, it is ALMOST
> imposible to use Linux -- Just because (1) I need to see HOW - TO on
> internet and (2) need packages from internet

My years of experience being an *user* in Linux has taught me this:

1. Choose a distro which has a good default repository of packages. I 
stopped using Fedora years back because it only had the Ubuntu 
equivalent of "main" and everything else had to be managed by 
downloading from third party repository like freshrpms etc., which had 
their own set of incompatibilities. At the risk of starting a flame 
war, I would suggest using any debian based distro(including debian 
itself) , enabling universe/multiverse equivalent of repositories in 
the distro and take advantage of their huge repositories.

2. Consider any application which is not available in the repository as 
simply "not available". It doesn't exist. Kaput. Live with it. Resist 
all attempts to download and compile, especially packages which deviate 
even one step away 
from "./configure --prefix=/usr/local/$NAME;make;make install".

Anything else (been there. done that), unless you are a backup guru, 
your next fresh install or failed distro upgrade will cause you ulcers.

If you keep these two steps in mind as a Linux *user*, there is mostly 
not any more "jung" to go out fighting for. :) 

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] How to use Fedora 9 for Commerical use

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Monday 08 September 2008 12:21:18 narendra sisodiya wrote:
> I have a question, Can I use Fedora 9 as a commercial use to develop
> software. ?
> has anybody studied its license policies ?
> Actually generally compaies buy Redhat. Do we any exmple for "Free of
> cost" or linux distro in companies ??
>
> Ref :  At software list :- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing
> There are some packagse which are commercial restrictive. removing
> package will solve the problem.

Explain "commercial use to develop software". 

- Are you trying to use that as your development platform? None of the 
linux distros stop you from doing that.

- Are you planning to package your software along with a distro to your 
clients? Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu,Gentoo all allow you to do that. 

Not too many people understand the distribution legalities of Redhat 
Linux completely. *My* interpretation is that while it is the RHN 
services which cost money and as per the licence of the software on the 
CDs, you are free to copy and distribute them, ... there are some 
trademark issues that you have to worry about if you intend to 
distribute Redhat Linux along with your software. Redhat's 
(intentional?) lack of clarification in this regard makes the distro a 
no-no for any commercial software+Redhat Linux bundle in my book. If 
someone really wants to provide it to their clients, it is safer to ask 
the client to purchase a copy and install your software from an 
installer.

OTOH, I would strongly recommend Ubuntu for such uses. It is as stable 
as Fedora, commercial support is available if any of your clients want 
it but not tied in, unlike Fedora it is not promoted as a poor cousin 
by its primary sponsor, and long term support releases are available to 
assure stability to your clients.

- Sandip





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Re: [ilugd] Bengalureans to come out with candles against monopolising knowledge

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Praveen A [20/08/08 23:47 +0530]:
>Free Software User Group Bangalore is organising candle light vigil to
>say no to software patents on 23rd Saturday.
>
>More details here
>http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Say_No_To_Software_Patents#Candle_Light_Vigil
>
>Invite your facebook friends at
>http://www.new.facebook.com/event.php?eid=27662916862
>

Also at upcoming: http://upcoming.yahoo.com/group/3268/

If anyone here uses upcoming, do join the ilugd group at
http://upcoming.yahoo.com/group/3268/

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] GPG Key Server

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Anand Shankar [20/08/08 07:49 +0530]:
>1. Wanted to set up a GPG Key Server inside my organisation intranet.
>I could not find an option to do that. Is it necessary / good idea to
>use a Public Key Server for such use?

I can't think of any even far-fetched security issue with using a public
key server for an organization. There isn't anything to break in a
public key.

The only important thing to think about is not whether you should keep
your GPG public key in a public key server. But that people exchange
encrypted mails only with people whose keys they trust - that is, they
have followed due process in personally verifying that the key belongs
to the person they think they are mailing to. Or that the key is signed
by a person you trust. 

To give an example, it would be careless to see a key ID in somebody's
mail, download the key and then send an encrypted mail to the person.
You should preferably contact the person personally and verify his key
(needs to be done only once in the key's lifetime) or check the sigs to
see if they match somebody you trust. Many people in orgs miss this part
of the GPG security model and mistakenly assume that just because they
are using something with encryption, nothing can go wrong.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] which flavour of linux to choose

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Raj Mathur [22/07/08 18:46 +0530]:
>On Tuesday 22 Jul 2008, Smruti wrote:
>> 1. Is it legal for someone to distribute a Redhat Enterprise Linux
>> copy that he bought from Redhat without any Redhat agreement or
>> restrictions? If yes, than again I get back to my old question which
>> is how will he get the distro.
>
>IANAL, but it's legal to re-distribute RHEL since RH relies on trademark 
>rather than copyright to protect its operating systems.  So you can 
>re-distribute it, but your recipient can't use it since s/he would be 
>violating Red Hat's trademarks by doing so.
>
>Perhaps someone from RH on this list could give us accurate information?
>


Right, I would also like to know, that since the application themselves
are GPLed, is using the trademark argument a mechanism to subvert
the rights given in the licence itself?

I think the Debian folks had a long talk with the Firefox people on
something similar before going the whole Iceweasel way.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Fwd: Change of timezone City for India

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Viksit Gaur [04/07/08 01:49 -0700]:
>Oh good lord, the entire list is aflame. Oh wait, no its just the regular 
>flamers who're flaming.
>
>> India has only one timezone. I woulid like to suggest to
>> change the city to Delhi (from Calcutta), which is the capital of
>> India, and has been stable since the country's independence in 1947.
>> If your criteria is the most populous city, it would be Mumbai (formerly
>> Bombay).
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_populous_cities_in_India
>
>I think a decision needs to be made on the basis of how other countries with 
>single timezones handle this issue. Personally, I think a change to Delhi 
>seems like the logical thing to do, given that it IS the political capital of 
>the country - no matter how important other cities in the country may be.

  ... but we are talking about the time zone, not the political zone (in
that Delhi being the centre in unquestionable).

As someone else had mentioned earlier, should we be moving every
institution of national significance to the capital? Are other cities
insignificant w.r.t. the country?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Fwd: Change of timezone City for India

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [02/07/08 17:58 +0530]:
>changed to Chennai according to your logic. All you are doing is  
>fanning the flames of regionalism, chauvinism, confucianism and god  
>knows what else. For heaven's sake leave this alone and go do  
>something useful.

I concur. The country is in too socially vulnerable a state to even
initiate such issues. Who knows when some party comes over asking for
breaking up the timezone further and dividing it on the basis of
socio-economic reasons. :D

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [30/06/08 20:41 +0530]:
>
>software is knowledge. Knowledge cannot be bought or sold. It can  
>only be shared.
>

And you would gladly "share" for a neat sum of money?

In the Gurukul system, knowledge was gladly shared for next to nothing.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [30/06/08 14:11 +0530]:
>
>I would tend to the opinion that sale of any software, let alone FOSS  
>is illegal, immoral and an act of cheating - the only point is, that  
>the courts have to recognise this.
>

According to all FOSS licences, the software itself need not be
available to be downloadable to public - only to the customer (You can't 
restrain your
customers from distributing it though) But the essence being that all
the rights the licences talk about, are that of the paying customer.

If that is the case, why cannot one sell software with source along
with all the other freedoms given by the licence? What is immoral about
it? When you are using the term 'immoral', you mean it is the violation
of certain principles/intent of the licence. What violation do you see
here?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Advocacy rules

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [25/06/08 11:15 +0530]:
>> In other words, when the future of the open source efforts of a closed
>> source project is not certain and can possibly end with a less than  
>> admirable
>> result, would you still spend years promoting it and ending up like an
>> indignant fool at the end?
>
>it is more likely to wind up fully open source if we allow them in  
>than if we only allow them in when they are fully 'purified'

Even though it seems very similar, I think the issue is the difference
between words and deeds.

Would it be okay for people to discuss and advocate M$  "Opensource"
initiative here? Java wasn't discussed till it got finally Open sourced.
Even though people have been calling for it to be Open sourced for
years, and Sun saying that they are considering it.

Ok. I feel I am moving in circles out here, and I would stop now. :)

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Advocacy rules

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Gora Mohanty [23/06/08 22:11 +0530]:
>Thank you for that nice summary. I am far from being a free-software
>purist, and am quite willing to accept discussions of projects that are
>in the process of being open-sourced, or even ones where people are
>trying to convince a project to go open-source.

Actually, that makes me think of another possibility. What is a
software/OS getting open source take a really long time to get open
sourced? What if the promoter actually finally delivers a crippled
product after promising the moon? What if the final decision reached by
the promoter is a compromise between their need to be accepted by the
FOSS community and the comfort zone that their executives need for their
Imaginary Property?

I am just theorizing below, and not suggesting that it is going to 
happen
in this case. 

What if Sun decides that it will never open their X server
and instead port the xorg code to their environment instead? What if for
every bit of software in Solaris's environment that people would 
actually like to see opensourced, they simply port an equivalent already
open sourced software, port it to their platform and release it as their
"solution"? While that would still make their final OS 100% FOSS, it
would be a mockery of their Open source efforts. Would you want such a
software to be promoted on the list?

In other words, when the future of the open source efforts of a closed
source project is not certain and can possibly end with a less than admirable
result, would you still spend years promoting it and ending up like an
indignant fool at the end?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Advocacy rules

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [23/06/08 15:38 +0530]:
>
>I think advocacy of a product in the process of being open sourced is  
>ok. In fact should be done as more people trying out and using the  
>product because it is being open sourced would
>
>a) encourage them to open source faster
>b) bring to light bugs, feature requests which will help them to  
>taste the benefits of open sourcing
>c) bring the authors into the community.
>
>I would consider advocating such projects as the equivalent of alpha/ 
>beta testing. It is our duty to help them move. After all, very often  
>we switch a person from doze to dual-boot as a first step. Thiink of  
>it like that.
>

I am still ok with this as long as the correct state of the project is
conveyed to the group. Misleading statements are dangerous in a list
like this where new people are just opening up their minds to the FOSS
concept. Misleading can be intentional or (as it seems in the recent
case) due to lack of complete understanding of the concepts involved.

We have progressed a lot in the last ten years. In that time we have
gone through a lot of discussions of what is the right thing to do and
what is not. Now that we have come so far, and today users can actually see a
100% FOSS distro which is completely usable for day to day work, we
should strive to be more ideologically pure. It is no longer just words.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Disk Clean up in kubuntu 7.10 ??

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ vaibhav khatavkar [23/06/08 12:44 +0530]:
>hi all,
>   I have kubuntu 7.10  running on my system .. This is my filesytem ..
>

>
>  How do I clean my disk... ??

I find Konqueror's File Size View to be absolutely invaluable when I
have disk space issues. The visual indication of disk space usage allows
me to zero down in an instant to the trouble spot.

To use,

A. Ensure Konqueror is using File Management view mode.
Settings -> Load View profile -> File Management

B. Move to the file system point you want to clean up. For cleaning up
your home directory it can be /home/$USER. For the entire disk, it would
be /.

C. Switch to the File Size view.
View -> View Mode -> File Size View.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Advocacy rules

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Raj Mathur [23/06/08 14:08 +0530]:
>While the name of the list (and the group) continue to remain ``Linux'', 
>I believe that's more for historical reasons than because of any 
>specific existing bias towards Linux as a FOSS platform.  IMO, as long 
>as we keep your remaining points in view, we should continue to discuss 
>and promote all FOSS solutions, regardless of whether they're 
>Linux-based or not.

I think OS specific lists still have their purpose. Linux does things a
particular way. Linux distros do things in a particular way. Having a
bit of specialization in the list at atleast OS level helps.

Also, if you combine all FOSS OSes - *Linux, *BSD, *Solaris, *Hurd, the
amount of noise and cross advocacy might get too high to be useful. 

Even though the number of questions asked nowadays on this list are
lesser than what was being asked a few years back (whatever the reasons
might be), dilution/expansion of the support objective might put off the 
people who can potentially help out here.

That said, we should welcome folks from other FOSS OSes to talk out
here, and especially at our meets. But OS specific *lists* are
necessary.

Who knows, some time in the future people might forget what the acronym
ILUGD stands for, and only remembers the lists - ilugd-bsd@,
ilugd-opensolaris@, ilugd-linux@, etc. :-P

- Sandip

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[ilugd] Advocacy rules (was) Re: Belenix coming in July Issue of LFY

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [23/06/08 13:13 +0530]:
>of opensolaris is to be permitted on this list. Obviously advocacy of  
>anything proprietary is a no no. So what is the stand on advocacy of  
>something that is in the process of being opensourced?

That is an excellent question, Kenneth. My point of view (I am hoping
others can provide theirs, so that we can reach a consensus):

* We welcome all discussions of FOSS.
* We can tolerate announcements of FOSS OSes.
* However, at the end of the day this is a Linux list, so
   advocacy(especially repeated advocacy) of non-Linux OSes dilutes the
   purpose of this list and so it is less than desirable.
* Commercial intentions for advocacy of any solution - FOSS or not,
   should be made clear.
* Defending a commercial FOSS solution against misinformation doesn't
   constitute advocacy.
* We should be very careful against attempts to dilute the interpretation
   of  FOSS principles, or any misleading claims which does so. 
* Advocacy of non-FOSS is a no-no to me. Announcements showing progress
   of open sourcing is fine - advocacy is not.

What are other's take on these?

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Belenix coming in July Issue of LFY

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Sudhanwa Jogalekar [23/06/08 00:39 +0530]:
>On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Sunday 22 Jun 2008, Angad Singh wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a difference between "open source" and "FOSS" as is evident
>>> and has been talked about a lot in the above discussion.
>>
>> Yes there is, and OpenSolaris is neither Open Source nor FOSS nor Free
>> Software as of today.  Please stop misleading the list.
>
>
>By this statement, you are misleading the list.
>
>
>As I mentioned in my earlier mail, Opensolaris is under CDDL which is
>a OSI approved license.
>
>Read this to get clarification:
>
>http://www.opensolaris.org/os/licensing/
>
>
>The binary licensing FAQ is here:
>
>http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/faq/binary_licensing_faq/#what-bcl
>
>
>The components not released as source are mentioned here.  More or
>less, they are some drivers etc.  As such, in this context, if we take
>Linux as FOSS, Opensolaris can also be taken as FOSS
>
>http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/no_source/
>


Please use words carefully. Your misunderstanding or misuse of
definitions is causing *you* to misleading this list.

These are the facts as of now according to the official sources of
Opensolaris.

a) CDDL is an OSI approved licensed.
b) The majority of OpenSolaris code is released under CDDL 
(http://www.opensolaris.org/os/licensing/)
c) At present, the OpenSolaris source base is not enough to bootstrap an
   entire system (http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/faq/general_faq/#whatis)
d) A part of the OS is still distributed under a binary licence - code,
not firmware blobs.

At present, Opensolaris is a+b+c which none of the Linux distros are.

http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/no_source/ mentions the following
which are currently not available as source (some which are not even
planned to be made available as source):
* Xsun server
* TrueType font engine for Xorg server
* Man pages

I leaving out some which are evidently not owned by Sun.

Some of us believe that a+b+c is not enough to call the distro as a FOSS
distro (it is on the way there, but not yet there). Also, please stop
making the case that CDDL being OSI compliant makes the whole distro OSI
compliant - even the OSI team would have serious reservations if such
misrepresentations are made. 

Please do not make incorrect comparisons with Linux distros, where
non-essential packages are binary only and not installed in most
distros by default.

Let me repeat - on the way there != already there. 

- Sandip





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Re: [ilugd] Belenix coming in July Issue of LFY

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Angad Singh [22/06/08 02:32 +0530]:
>There's a difference between "open source" and "FOSS" as is evident
>and has been talked about a lot in the above discussion.

No. There is no confusion about this in the list. FOSS definition 
includes open source, and the whole discussion was whether
Opensolaris distro as a whole (and not just parts of it) is Open 
Source or not.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Belenix coming in July Issue of LFY

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Angad Singh [22/06/08 01:13 +0530]:
>
>I agree. OpenSolaris, though being open source, is not FOSS, my point
>is just that why shud it not be discussed on this list if other
>non-FOSS distro's or other non-FOSS languages and much else is already
>discussed.

Uh oh. Careful about your terminology:

http://freefreesoftware.org/foss/

FOSS = Free (and) Open Source Software

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Belenix coming in July Issue of LFY

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Sudhanwa Jogalekar [21/06/08 15:43 +0530]:
>
>Ubuntu also has some proprietory components but nobody says it is
>NON-FOSS and is promoted and accepted very well everywhere.

Perhaps you did not completely understand what Raj said in the previous
mail - all the Linux distros mentioned (Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.) out of the
box are perfectly FOSS compliant. Any addition of proprietery drivers
(often mentioned while spreading FUD about these distros, like the one 
  a few mails
back) is *always* done after the OS is up and running. The proprietary
drivers are never necessary for the basic functioning of the OS. nvidia
works with vesa, mp3 doesn't work as they should not, mplayer is not 
installed as it should not be, proprietery codecs are not installed as
they should not be. Each of
these are only installed once the user deliberately asks for them to be
installed after the OS is installed, and with full knowledge about the
compromise they would be doing in the process.


All this said, I would admit that Opensolaris is on its way to be a
FOSS distro. The community is working hard, they are also perhaps
pushing Sun to move faster. At the end having another FOSS alternative
is always a good thing.

Free software definition has always been zealously defined and defended.
Regardless of people either misunderstanding it or trying to dilute its
definition intentionally, it is important to be alert and making sure
there is no compromise.


The Opensolaris community in India should not feel negative about the
FOSS communities like ILUGD if their ultimate aim is the same as ours.
They actually have our support in their endeavours. Don't get too upset
about these discussions. We only ask that please be clear about the
ultimate aim - Free software for every man/woman (Free not as in beer).
People are naturally proud about their work, and they should be, but
don't have any illusions about where you stand, and I mean to say this
in a good way.


- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Java - is it an albatross?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Puneet Lakhina [20/06/08 17:34 +0530]:
>Shorter learning curve argument doesnt hold, I dont see why for an average
>person it would be easier to learn PHP instead JSP/Servlets. or why it would
>be difficult to set up tomcat over apache with mod php.

Then you need to get a fresh look at it.

Any standard linux installation nowadays (which installs apache by
default) has out of the box PHP support, and all person needs to do
after picking up his/her first PHP book is to open a text editor, code,
save, and refresh his browser :). And provided he doesn't make stupid
newbie security mistakes, his application is ready for the web and can
handle considerable amount of real traffic.

If you can say the same for Tomcat for example(don't get me started on
my quite outdated views of jboss here), I will admit that I really should
update myself and will withdraw my claims. :)

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Experience of Prachi Saxena

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ shirish [20/06/08 15:23 +0530]:
>Angad, one of the replies quoted wikipedia and some from
>Opensolaris/Sun's site about the licensing (CDDL) and stuff like that.
>It would have been nice to get a nice discussion revolving around
>that.

I have been waiting for some answer to that as well after the quite
strong language used by Angad with respect to how Opensolaris is as Free
as the Linux distros out there. 

- Sandip

P.S. Not changing the subject intentionally. Just seeing how long can we
have a discussion quite different from the OP. :-P

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Re: [ilugd] Java - is it an albatross?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Puneet Lakhina [20/06/08 13:29 +0530]:
>>>
>>>
>> To begin with, they are more expensive to recruit, and salaries (that I
>> last saw) lie somewhere between (and beyond) their inherent capabilities
>>  and the market rate, if you know what I mean. :) In short, it is more
>> diffcult for smaller companies and government organizations to compete
>> with the market for them.
>>
>
>So what you are saying is, get the PHP guy, he is cheap coz nobody wants
>him, and hel stay coz nobody will want him.

No, I didn't say that. You are putting those words in my mouth. 

I gave a very good business context why they might be paid less. But I also
mentioned that the gap between their availability and Java programmers
is decreasing. 

Why do you thing that is happening? That is because more
and more organizations are catching on to the cost-effectiveness of LAMP
solutions - the quick turn around that it can give them, the shorter
learning curve for people wanting to enter the field, the ease in which
a LAMP solution can be maintained as compared to a Java one, etc.

Also with regards to salary, yes, LAMP programmers might be under-paid
as compared to Java ones. People will have find exceptions to what I am
saying here, but this has been true for many small to medium scale
Java applications that I have seen:

  They are over-engineered. If a small database app can be made in 2-3
scripts running on a low end server in LAMP, it will require a more
powerful computer, a longer development cycle, more expensive developers
and a more complex app  (Tomcat/Jboss/etc) if it is done in web based
Java applications. This stays true for quite a few applications if you
go higher up in the app complexity scale. Given this context, it is
probably more apt to say that Java programmers are over paid for the
value they create as compared to LAMP programmers, and the market would
soon take care of this anomaly (and it already is).

Please take all my opinions with a grain of salt though, as my last experience
with Java apps (though intensive) was quite a few years ago.


- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] OSDD Portal - request for comments from community

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

>> >
>> >Note: Most users/developers of computational biology applications
>> >web-enable their applications using a LAMP stack. Q: Can similar
>> > portal functionalities be provided by Joomla/Drupal/etc  ?
>>
>> Yes, You should also consider FOSS options like Plone, Typo3 which
>> has workflow login built in.
>
>Umm, that's really, really basic workflow.  jBPM (or any 
>enterprise-grade workflow engine) can give you infinitely customisable 
>workflows.  Of course, in this case I'm not sure what level of 
>workflows we need.
>

  My only grouse against jboss (when I last looked at it) is that when
the best source of documentation and the one promoted by the
organization is closed source and has to be paid for, I would look at 
its Free credentials skeptically. Has that aspect changed?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] OSDD Portal - request for comments from community

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Andrew Michael Lynn [19/06/08 14:26 +0530]:
>
>Requirements: Collaboration, Content-management, an Open Lab note-book,
>project management and workflow 
>
>1. OS
>Solaris 
>Enterprise Linux


That should have been "Redhat Enterprise Linux" (Redhat is not the only
entity making "enterprise" grade linux :-P ).

Is commercial support from Redhat/Sun going to be bought? If not, then
Debian would be a good rock solid alternative too. Freebsd would be as
good too.

Business angle:
Solaris/Opensolaris vs. Linux: 
1. How expensive is paid tech support?
2. How much support is typically needed in any of these options.
3. How much difficult is it to get admins for these options? And retain
them?
4. As a consequence, how easy is it to get good documentation? And good
community support?

>
>2. Application server
>GlassFish
>JBOSS
>Apache Tomcat
>Apache

Is the Tomcat/Jboss java stack being looked at only because of the JBPM
workflow tool below? By going in for a Java based stack has multiple
effects, technical as well as business wise:
1. Your hardware requirements increase dramatically.
2. Your LAMP options reduce dramatically. There is no sense running a
LAMP application running on a machine running a Tomcat instance which is
heavily used.
3. The business aspect - how easy is it to get Java talent from the
market place and retain them as compared to LAMP? Whatever application
you spend your valuable money on, will lock you into the platform that
you choose. You can port between Unix OS, but you can't between
languages later without significant investments. Are you willing in
going that path?


>
>3. Portal Engine
>Sun Open Portal
>LifeRay
>
>Note: Most users/developers of computational biology applications
>web-enable their applications using a LAMP stack. Q: Can similar portal
>functionalities be provided by Joomla/Drupal/etc  ?

Yes, You should also consider FOSS options like Plone, Typo3 which has
workflow login built in.



>
>8. Data Warehousing (Do we need this?) The only suggestions in the first
>cut were proprietary solutions. 
>Data Warehouse – GreenPlum
>Data Integration/Extraction Tool – Informatica
>Design/BI - Microstrategy

If you are stuck with these options, look at the options of interfacing
with them using LAMP too.

>
>10. Workflow
>jBPM is built into JBOSS. 
>The taverna project (workflow developed for computational biology)
>



IMHO, my perceived biggest problem in organizations like CSIR is 
vendor/platform lock-in which causes expensive sustainability issues 
later. Having options which are nimble are as important as options which
are so called "enterprise grade".

The other problems are talent and support. Recruiting and retaining good Java
programmers/admins are a nightmare for commercial organizations in the
first place. I cannot imagine what it will be for organizations like
CSIR.

But again, it has been a while since I worked with such organizations.
Things might have got better since. :)

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Belenix coming in July Issue of LFY

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Angad Singh [18/06/08 12:17 +0530]:
>Belenix is a LiveCD distribution of OpenSolaris created by the indian
>opensolaris community - bangalore opensolaris user group (BOSUG).

Angad,
  
What is the current licensing state of Opensolaris? Is it entirely open
sourced?

This is from Wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSolaris):

The opening of the Solaris source code has been an incremental process.
The first part of the Solaris codebase to be open sourced was the
Solaris Dynamic Tracing facility (commonly known as DTrace), a tracing
tool for administrators and developers that aids in tuning a system for
optimum performance and utilisation. DTrace was released on January 25,
2005. At that time, Sun also released the first phase of the
opensolaris.org web site, announced that the OpenSolaris code base would
be released under the CDDL (Common Development and Distribution
License), and announced the intent to form a Community Advisory Board
(CAB). The opening day launch, in which the bulk of the Solaris system
code was released, was June 14, 2005. There remains some system code
that is not open sourced, and is available only as binary files. The
OpenSolaris source code represents the code in the most recent
development build of Solaris.

Is part of the distribution still just binary? Any roadmap when it is
going to be completely open sourced?

Also am curious about this part from your FAQ:
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/about/faq/general_faq/#whatis

 Below are key OpenSolaris-related technologies:

   OpenSolaris Source Code: This is the source base for open
   development. It consists of several components called consolidations.
   See the downloads page for the technologies released and the roadmap 
for
   future releases. At present, the OpenSolaris source base is not 
enough
   to bootstrap an entire system, so developers start by downloading an
   OpenSolaris distribution and installing the OpenSolaris bits on top.

It seems that even man pages of OpenSolaris are not available for
redistribution yet.

http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php/Belenix_FAQ#Where_are_the_Man_Pages_.3F

Given these constraints how does OpenSolaris/Belenix qualify to be
called a "Free" unix distribution? Please note that I am not in any way
belittling the contribution of the Belenix team. I admire their
contribution to develop community based software. My questions are
directed only at the OpenSolaris project.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] is being paid for promoting FOSS bad? [was] shabdanjali ISSUES

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Aditya Kumar Sharma [17/06/08 13:32 +0530]:
>quite frankly i think its just plain stupid what all of you are doing, 
>this IMHO is like a group of five year old kids bragging how strong 
>their dog is, how big his teeth are, how furry his coat is, it seems 
>awfully important thing to do when you are five but when you grow up one 
>realizes that it was awfully stupid, because quite frankly nobody cares 
>about the other guys dog, each one to his own dog, or in this case 
>product, or choice of distribution, if a certain individual is being 
>paid by a company does not mean that he cant love their product, or tell 
>people about it, 

I disagree. I believe that this is a valid discussion that Angad, Gora,
Raju and Kenneth had, and if anything, it underlines the drive in the
people behind this list to keep the list free of any kind of commercial
influence. We have had these kind of discussions quite a few times in
the last few years, and however negative the feeling was in the few days
surrounding it, it has generally been good in the long term. And the
list hasn't died in the process.

Gora and Raj had concerns, Angad had his defense. People can draw their
own conclusions. Let us move on. There are bigger issues to fight for.

> now in this case i highly doubt angad is nothing but a 
>spokesperson for sun, who joins all possible mailing lists and then 
>brags about Solaris or OpenSolaris or a million other things that Sun 

There is no issue being evangelical about such product offering, but
when you are being paid for evangelise a company's product, it is common
courtesy(not just in FOSS lists) to put in a disclaimer that you are
commercially associated with it. It is just like stock advisors putting
in disclaimers that they own certain stock themselves.

>system, i also love fedora, am a fedora ambassador, but lets say five 
>years down the line i am hired by either Apple or Red hat should i 
>suddenly stop talking about either of those amazing Operating systems, 
>it would probably by then would be my second nature to talk about such 
>things, if it already isn't! , 

As soon as you are hired by any of these companies, you should be aware
of your changed role in this list. The ILUGD list is proud to be a
vendor independent, non-commercial, grassroots FOSS community.
Possibility of bias while offering suggestions, takes the shine off such
an identity. 

It is just like talking face to face with people. If you talk while
wearing the uniform of the company, people would have no objection to
whatever suggestions you make, because they can evaluate possibilities
of bias in their mind. But if you do the same thing without wearing the
uniform, that is sneaky behavior. :)


>of us here haven't let pass an opportunity to target him, and yes i am 
>not a regular contributor to the mailing list, and the reason to that is 
>quite simple, ILUG-D rarely welcomes new people, rarely approves of new 
>initiatives, when we , i was the one who sent in the proposal for a 
>FREED.in or even a satellite conference being hosted at our college 
>JIIT, sent in a proposal it was met with only skepticism , i accept that 
>we were new members, but someone could have said no worries we'll try 
>and integrate you, but nothing of that sort happened, Freed.in or any 
>such conference must be held at JNU is what i gather, the reasons for 

I don't think you completely understand how such FOSS lists work. There
are no issues with new people coming in. There is just a bit of mild
skepticism in new people turning in and trying to change things. If
anything that this list has learnt over the last ~10 years is that
it is easy to start things but more difficult to sustain things in the
long run. The basic unwritten expectation that the list has from new 
people is for them to build some kind of credibility in the list first
by regularly contributing to it. Your voice counts more and more as your
contributions go up into the community.

BTW, did you jump to all these conclusions about the nature of the list
just because the ILUGD folks didn't warm up to your idea about hosting
freed.in at your college? Do you believe in democratic opinion? What if
most people involved in the discussion genuinely believed that JNU was a
better venue? Were you open to that possibility? 

My advise is to warm up
the list to your college by holding several monthly LUG meetings, etc. first,
and then go ahead and proposing to have such conferences there.

- Sandip


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[ilugd] List rules (was) Re: {X-post} Experience of Prachi Saxena

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

>
>1. You TOP- POSTED , that`s against mailing list rules.(You have been warned
>again and again)
>
>2. There was no context all together in reply of my previous mail, The
>replies were not quoted . This is called thread hijacking, Which is against
>mailing list rules

I am not sure whether we should say that top-posting,lack of context and
thread hijacking/recycling are violation of list rules.

They are certainly things which make mailing list experience subpar, and
probably that is the intention of formulating some sort of guideline[1].

[1]
http://wiki.linux-delhi.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/MailingListGuidelines

But it is a guideline nevertheless. Also, if you look it up, it doesn't
even mention top-posting and proper quoting inside it. You can mention
it as a netiquette [2].

[2] http://wiki.linux-delhi.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/MailNetiquettes

Just because someone is not speaking your language is no reason to throw
the book at him/her. In classic mailing list/newsgroup behaviour,
everyone has the option of ignoring what they feel is uncouth behavior.
But if there are people who can have a conversation with such people and
can provide value to others, I am all for it (even though I might never
participate in such discussions).

Let's not commit the classic Indian mistake that permeates every part of
our social existence - lets not make rules which we know is likely to be
broken and is therefore unforceable. Lets look at more realistic rules.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] BBC on Microsoft standard stalled

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Yashpal Nagar [12/06/08 17:18 +0100]:
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Linux Lingam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> the ol' beeb mentions india and three other countries...
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7445956.stm
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6291124.stm
>
>Another interesting one.
>

I have collected a bit from information from around on this.

http://blog.sandipb.net/2008/06/06/the-reasons-behind-the-ooxml-appeals/

Interesting to see the length to which corporate lobbying happens in
India in the IT sector. You should atleast read the complete blog post
of the IIT professor.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] OT: ahoo toolbar spyware...

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

+++ Nalin Savara [13/06/08 21:43 +0530]:
>Hi Folks...
>My Mozilla browser earlier had a Google search toolbar--- and suddenly,
>overnight, it got replaced by a yahoo! toolbar-- without my doing anything.
>
>I dont have any yahoo messenger on this comp; nor did I ever consent to
>adding a yahoo toolbar.
>
>Seems in it's desperation, yahoo has lost some of it's ethics.
>
>
>Anyone have a similar experience ?
>

Not speaking on behalf of Yahoo here, but this seems to be Mozilla that
you are talking about, and not IE. Never heard of anything yet being
installed on its own in Mozilla (Firefox?). I am assuming you are
talking about a Windows machine too. Are you sure you haven't installed
any software recently, which could have possibly have the toolbar
bundled?

- Sandip

  
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Re: [ilugd] Commercial -Two engineers required at NIXI

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

>One engineer is required for customizing  http://cocca.asia/ (Open Source
>Registry) for .BHARAT  other will be required for working and customizing in
>openNMS software.

Wooo. .BHARAT? 



- Sandip

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