subject:"Zettelkasten \- Notes Jim but not as we know them."

A zettel thought experiment.

I ran through an imaginary scenario for using a ZK, once it's populated. I
based this on how I use my bookmark manager. Note that my bookmark
collection does not actually have some of these headings and bookmarks.

*I have a piece of cod to cook for dinner ( really do). I look for "cod".
I find some recipes. Might there be more? I check related headings, and
find that "Cooking" has some more recipes. I find a few there. What
else? How about "Fish"? I find a number of headings related to "Fish".
Wait- what's that? "Fish-ancestral".. Hmm, let's see what that is, I don't
remember it. Look at this - "Ancient DNA from Fossil Fishes". Oh,
interesting, can you actually get DNA from fish fossils?*

*Wonder what those old fish tasted like? Supposedly you can figure out
hair color for humans from dna, I wonder if you can get the flavor too.
Hmm, if I were around back then, would fish taste the same to me anyway?
Maybe our sense of taste evolves over time. Hmm, can that be studied? And
what would it even mean, since we can never really know what a given kind
of sensation seems like to another person?*

So in about five minutes we have wandered from a dinner recipe to paleo
history to philosophical questions about the meaning and stability of
sensory perceptions. We've actually come up with several possible research
projects and a topic for a philosophical essay. All in about five minutes.

All this, and there's virtually nothing in my ZK yet! I'm just visualizing
how I might use it. This serendipidy, that's one of the main things I'm
interested in - that, and helping me and my fallible memory find things
again.

Of course, I still have to cook the fish!

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 12:10:38 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> [snip]
> And if the system extracts the title for the heading, perhaps I need to 
> copy the title into the 'body', below.  Or it could even differ from the 
> heading if there is any reason to do that. Can you have multiple identical 
> headings in an outline? Actually, yes, I've already discovered that you can.
>

I don't think there is any need to have the zettel's title in the body.  If 
you are looking to the outline pane, there it is in the headline.  If you 
are looking at the rendered pane, the rendering code adds the headline as 
the top-level heading automatically.  BTW, the rendering pane can export 
the rendered view to your system browser.  It can also render an entire 
subtree if that's what you want. 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 12:10:38 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> In the example you posted, "Salmon with Whole Lemon Dressing" is the 
> heading, and also the title in the rendered pane.  But in the body pane, 
> what follows the id is "Salmon Lemon Dressing", so the rendered title is 
> the same as the heading, but not the same as what is in the body pane.
>

That's intentional.  Suppose you want to create a backlink to a node that 
doesn't have a title.  It would be good if it did have one, so you could 
know whether you want to go look at it.  The command looks to see if the 
:id: line already has a title. Then it uses that title, even if it doesn't 
match the headline or the label in the sending node.  Otherwise, it uses 
the headline as a label for the backlink.

This label is purely for the user's convenience.  It is not used to find 
the node to navigate to.  The idea is that you might want a different label 
than what's in the headline.  Maybe the headline is too short or too long, 
and you want something different.  It's basically visual clutter vs 
usefulness.

And you can always change the label in the :id: or :link: lines. That won't 
affect the navigation functionality, though it might affect certain 
searches.

I'm trying to have the system do as much as possible while still staying 
simple and unobtrusive for the user.  I discovered as I started to use my 
ZK that I wanted to type in link labels, and that led to the current scheme 
where I don't but I can change them if I want to.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 12:10:38 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:07:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>>
>> The line of "=" characters marks a section break, the text in brackets 
>> becomes the title, and the date speaks for itself.  The number of "=" 
>> characters in a line doesn't matter as long as 1) the line starts with an 
>> "=" and 2) there are at least some minimum number of them.
>>
>> As I see it, when you want to convert one of your text files to 
>> zettel-hood, you would go through the file and add these section breaks as 
>> you go.  Then paste the entire thing into a Leo node (or import the file 
>> into a node), hit a hot key, and the system would split out all your 
>> zettels, in order, with the titles as the headlines.  They'd all be at the 
>> same level of indentation.  After that, you could move them into the ZK, 
>> add organizing zettels, link them, add citations, etc to your heart's 
>> delight.
>>
>> Does that sound like it would work for you?
>>
>
> Yes it does. 
> So prepping a file consists of adding the separators, [title in brackets] 
> on first line, a space and then the 'created' date (where I see you used 
> the same -MM-DD format that is my preference. 
> Will the system then zettel-ize it with a UID? And where will it place the 
> title (within the zettel that is)? 
>

The easiest thing to do (and the way I have been visualizing it) is to use 
the [title] for the headline of the zettel node.  You'd want to keep it 
short and (if possible) informative, but you should do that anyway.  The 
date could be separated by any amount of whitespace, as long as it's on the 
same line.  A date could even be optional.

The node identifier would be the node's gnx, as my zettel-insert-node 
(CTRL+F8) command already does.  There's no need to have another uid.  It 
would be possible to build a new command that captures a node's gnx to the 
clipboard so you can paste it where ever you want, but I don't know that 
would worth binding to a hot key.

BTW, about these "commands" I keep mentioning.  Each of them consists of 
code bound to a name.  If you have used the emacs editor you will recognize 
how to use them.  You hit Alt-X, or click in the "minibuffer" line at the 
screen bottom, then type in the name of the command.  It does completion, 
so type, for example, "ze" then hit TAB, and a panel will show you all the 
commands that start with "ze". Type enough more characters then hit tab 
again to complete one of them.  Then  executes the command.

That's how you can use commands that are not bound to keys.

If you  go to my zettel2.leo example file, and try the above, you'll see 
the following commands:

   zettel-goto-node
   zettel-insert-node
   zettel-insert-time

Those are the commands in the @command nodes.

> And can the 'created' date be automated?  Well, that would be nice, but 
> since I need to type in the created date anyway I might as well make a 
> :created: -MM-DD line.
> And if the system extracts the title for the heading, perhaps I need to 
> copy the title into the 'body', below.  Or it could even differ from the 
> heading if there is any reason to do that. Can you have multiple identical 
> headings in an outline? Actually, yes, I've already discovered that you can.
>
> So this gives a way to set the heading from within the zettel, removing a 
> step from the process.  A bit less overhead, at least when I bring a zettel 
> in that way.
>
> In the example you posted, "Salmon with Whole Lemon Dressing" is the 
> heading, and also the title in the rendered pane.  But in the body pane, 
> what follows the id is "Salmon Lemon Dressing", so the rendered title is 
> the same as the heading, but not the same as what is in the body pane.
>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:07:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> The line of "=" characters marks a section break, the text in brackets 
> becomes the title, and the date speaks for itself.  The number of "=" 
> characters in a line doesn't matter as long as 1) the line starts with an 
> "=" and 2) there are at least some minimum number of them.
>
> As I see it, when you want to convert one of your text files to 
> zettel-hood, you would go through the file and add these section breaks as 
> you go.  Then paste the entire thing into a Leo node (or import the file 
> into a node), hit a hot key, and the system would split out all your 
> zettels, in order, with the titles as the headlines.  They'd all be at the 
> same level of indentation.  After that, you could move them into the ZK, 
> add organizing zettels, link them, add citations, etc to your heart's 
> delight.
>
> Does that sound like it would work for you?
>

Yes it does. 
So prepping a file consists of adding the separators, [title in brackets] 
on first line, a space and then the 'created' date (where I see you used 
the same -MM-DD format that is my preference. 
Will the system then zettel-ize it with a UID? And where will it place the 
title (within the zettel that is)? 
And can the 'created' date be automated?  Well, that would be nice, but 
since I need to type in the created date anyway I might as well make a 
:created: -MM-DD line.
And if the system extracts the title for the heading, perhaps I need to 
copy the title into the 'body', below.  Or it could even differ from the 
heading if there is any reason to do that. Can you have multiple identical 
headings in an outline? Actually, yes, I've already discovered that you can.

So this gives a way to set the heading from within the zettel, removing a 
step from the process.  A bit less overhead, at least when I bring a zettel 
in that way.

In the example you posted, "Salmon with Whole Lemon Dressing" is the 
heading, and also the title in the rendered pane.  But in the body pane, 
what follows the id is "Salmon Lemon Dressing", so the rendered title is 
the same as the heading, but not the same as what is in the body pane.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.



On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 11:13:24 AM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:07:09 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>>
>> We've got that by means of the Leo outline structure.  The proximity and 
>> nesting of the Leo nodes fills exactly the same function.
>>
>
> Somehow I don't see it as quite the same thing.  The outline structure is 
> hierarchical while the numbered thread structure, while it does represent 
> ordered sequence, does not necessarily imply hierarchy (although it can). 
> But the other aspect that I see as different (and a necessary difference) 
> is that outline headings are categories or topics, while thought sequences 
> are another sort of thing.  A thought may be an observation, a viewpoint, 
> an opinion, a deduction, a question. I might think of it as more of a 
> process than a topic, although it will always have a topic. We will have 
> entire sequences of thoughts on one topic, and topic-wise, we do indeed 
> need the outline structure, which I consider a top-down function. 
>
> But the sequences of thoughts, and their branches and connections do not, 
> to me, closely resemble a hierarchically arranged set of topics. They can 
> indeed be, and should be, classed within such a structure, but it appears 
> to me that allowing them only a topic-based structure might break the 
> dynamic of the sequenced thread of thought.  This forum thread is an 
> example of a sequenced thread of thought that would be difficult, I think, 
> to represent as a hierarchical outline of headings. Sub-topics topics could 
> indeed be identified, and we could build an outline structure of those 
> sub-topics (in fact it would likely be helpful to do so), yet that 
> structure would not, I think, reflect or adequately (though it could to a 
> degree) illuminate the sequential thought processes that develops through 
> this thread.  A thought thread or 'train of thought' is a sequential, 
> ordered process, not just an organization of topics.  Just my viewpoint for 
> what it's worth.
>
>> [snip]
>>
>
Here's where   I have the advantage over your, because of the work I did to 
come up with my bookmarks manager.  My bookmarks are arranged in folders 
and subfolders.  What I had to understand is that this arrangement is not 
really a strict hierarchy, and that it's not necessarily frozen for all 
time.  The way in which the organizing headings are arrived at isn't even 
consistent or even logical over time.  But the headings had some useful 
meaning at the time.  Also, like you, I didn't want to spend time agonizing 
over where something should go, I just wanted to be able to find it later.  
There's more on this in the paper, to which you already have a link.

That's why the outline structure shouldn't really be considered a strict 
hierarchy, and why there's a need for more than one kind of view.

But I stand by my claim that the outline has implicit links - child and 
subordinate links - that map exactly to Luhmann's numbering system.   Go 
ahead, sketch out a few zettels based on his system.  The slips are linked 
by the numbers.  They are what's called isomorphic.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:07:09 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> We've got that by means of the Leo outline structure.  The proximity and 
> nesting of the Leo nodes fills exactly the same function.
>

Somehow I don't see it as quite the same thing.  The outline structure is 
hierarchical while the numbered thread structure, while it does represent 
ordered sequence, does not necessarily imply hierarchy (although it can). 
But the other aspect that I see as different (and a necessary difference) 
is that outline headings are categories or topics, while thought sequences 
are another sort of thing.  A thought may be an observation, a viewpoint, 
an opinion, a deduction, a question. I might think of it as more of a 
process than a topic, although it will always have a topic. We will have 
entire sequences of thoughts on one topic, and topic-wise, we do indeed 
need the outline structure, which I consider a top-down function. 

But the sequences of thoughts, and their branches and connections do not, 
to me, closely resemble a hierarchically arranged set of topics. They can 
indeed be, and should be, classed within such a structure, but it appears 
to me that allowing them only a topic-based structure might break the 
dynamic of the sequenced thread of thought.  This forum thread is an 
example of a sequenced thread of thought that would be difficult, I think, 
to represent as a hierarchical outline of headings. Sub-topics topics could 
indeed be identified, and we could build an outline structure of those 
sub-topics (in fact it would likely be helpful to do so), yet that 
structure would not, I think, reflect or adequately (though it could to a 
degree) illuminate the sequential thought processes that develops through 
this thread.  A thought thread or 'train of thought' is a sequential, 
ordered process, not just an organization of topics.  Just my viewpoint for 
what it's worth.

>
> I've actually been making new organizing nodes contain the IDs, because I 
> know from experience with my bookmarks manager that it can be useful to 
> jump to headings instead of only to specific items.
>

So an organizing node is itself a zettel, I gather. Hmm, so a note zettel 
could have a backlink to one or more organizing zettels.  And organizing 
zettels form yet another interlaced system and add a powerful search 
capability. I haven't even begun to think about organizing nodes.  I am 
very interested in your concepts and approaches. 

I completely agree on the utility, the necessity of headings, indexes, 
various top-down organizational structures/functions, even while seeing, I 
believe, shortcomings with them as well.  And by the way, if possible, I am 
very interested in your bookmarks manager.  Need a zk for bookmarks/URLs, a 
sort of adjunct to the notes/thoughts zk.

And Thomas, I can hardly express how very much I appreciate your work on 
this.  I expect I come across sometimes as unappreciative.  I'd like to 
correct that impression if I can.  I think that you are exactly the right 
person to do this.  Wish I could help in more substantive ways, not just 
throwing silly ideas out there.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:07:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
[snip] 

>   I used this format to index the file for a full text search engine 
> (Lucene).  I like the format because it is easy to type, easy to read, and 
> easy to parse.  Note that this is an actual fragment from one of my files - 
> it's not made up for this post.
>
>
> ===
> [Get or find computer-unique computer-specific id identifier] 2007-04-17
>
> Find or get an identifier (hostid or host id) unique to a specific 
> computer.
>
[snip]

Actually, this system worked pretty nicely.  I ran a batch file that would 
read your search phrase and open a page in the browser.  The page contained 
a list of section titles for sections that matched your request.  Clicking 
on one of them took you to the full text of that section.

I didn't use this system as much as I might have because it was slow to 
create the page and open the browser.  Lucene is written in Java, and so I 
wrote my code in Jython (a version of Python implemented in Java).  This 
was fine, but it was very slow to load the Jython runtime for each search.  
I probably should have turned it into a service, but I never got around to 
it.

Now there's a full-python search engine, and I could re-implement it using 
that.  But since I'm using Leo all the time now, I want to concentrate my 
energies on it rather than re-implementing the old system.  It was pretty 
nice, though.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:39:07 AM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 8:57:30 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>>
>>> And already I see that I could use a command to slap a UID into an 
>>> already existing zettel that doesn't yet have one. 
>>>
>>
>> Creating your own unique identifiers can be hard.  
>>
>
> Yes, I do not contemplate writing my own UIDs. I realize that UIDs belong 
> to Leo, not to me. I meant that if I have an existing node, OR, a section 
> of a file, that has not yet become a zettel in the system, with UID, I need 
> a direct, quick way to accomplish that.
>
>>  
>> My own plan for this kind of thing is to take the text that I want to 
>> split up into zettels and go through it a section at a time.  For each 
>> section, make a new zettel in Leo.
>>
>
> How do you go about making a section of text a zettel? Copy paste it into 
> the body of an already created (with UID) empty (i.e. no body as yet) 
> zettel? That's ok for a few, but I will have large numbers of them.
>

Here's an example of one way I've done this in the past.  It's been very 
effective.  The parser is simple.  I used this format to index the file for 
a full text search engine (Lucene).  I like the format because it is easy 
to type, easy to read, and easy to parse.  Note that this is an actual 
fragment from one of my files - it's not made up for this post.

===
[Get or find computer-unique computer-specific id identifier] 2007-04-17

Find or get an identifier (hostid or host id) unique to a specific computer.

Windows: vol  gives the drive serial number.
[e:\]vol c:
 Volume in drive C is unlabeled  Serial number is 2839:BCC4

Windows: ipconfig /all gives the network adapter address, in a line
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-18-DE-9B-D8-31

Linux: /sbin/ifconfig | grep HWaddr returns a line with the network adapter

==
[Run Java app as service] 2007-04-12

For running java apps as services on Windows or *nix
Java Service Wrapper 
http://wrapper.tanukisoftware.org/doc/english/introduction.html

It is open source, with an MIT license.

Jetty comes with source code to implement a Windows wrapper that uses Java 
Service Wrapper.
=

The line of "=" characters marks a section break, the text in brackets 
becomes the title, and the date speaks for itself.  The number of "=" 
characters in a line doesn't matter as long as 1) the line starts with an 
"=" and 2) there are at least some minimum number of them.

As I see it, when you want to convert one of your text files to 
zettel-hood, you would go through the file and add these section breaks as 
you go.  Then paste the entire thing into a Leo node (or import the file 
into a node), hit a hot key, and the system would split out all your 
zettels, in order, with the titles as the headlines.  They'd all be at the 
same level of indentation.  After that, you could move them into the ZK, 
add organizing zettels, link them, add citations, etc to your heart's 
delight.

Does that sound like it would work for you?

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:26:17 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>  So you will need to have some degree of consistency in the syntax and 
> planning of what you write and in your working procedures.
>

Yes, I am aware that the different elements of the zettel must conform 
strictly to syntax specific to the element, so the system can correctly 
execute the functionality of the specific element. I've done a small 
smattering of programming and know that exactitude is required.  Computers 
are much more precise in their communication that we mere humans.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 8:57:30 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>> And already I see that I could use a command to slap a UID into an 
>> already existing zettel that doesn't yet have one. 
>>
>
> Creating your own unique identifiers can be hard.  
>

Yes, I do not contemplate writing my own UIDs. I realize that UIDs belong 
to Leo, not to me. I meant that if I have an existing node, OR, a section 
of a file, that has not yet become a zettel in the system, with UID, I need 
a direct, quick way to accomplish that.

>  
> My own plan for this kind of thing is to take the text that I want to 
> split up into zettels and go through it a section at a time.  For each 
> section, make a new zettel in Leo.
>

How do you go about making a section of text a zettel? Copy paste it into 
the body of an already created (with UID) empty (i.e. no body as yet) 
zettel? That's ok for a few, but I will have large numbers of them.

 I urge you to mark each bit of meta data just like :id: and :link: - with 
colons front and back (and a piece of metadata would have to be on a single 
line).

>
> I've attached a screenshot of an example.  It shows the Leo view of a 
> zettel and also the Restructured Text rendering.  The URL is clickable in 
> both the Leo and the rendered panes.
>
> BTW, you may notice that on the id line, after the actual identifier there 
> is a string.  The string is optional, but when the hot key command creates 
> a backlink, it looks for that string and adds it to the backlink.  If there 
> is none, it adds the node's headline.  That way, you have some idea of what 
> that backlink points to, and you get that for no effort on your part.
>

Good, all of this starts to build a picture. I've not yet done links but 
will shortly. And the notion of all the meta lines being right there in the 
zettel, where you can modify or add to your heart's content (except for the 
UID of course) places control where it belongs, within the zettels. It's a 
bottom up system. 

Two pieces are not under control of the zettel: the UID (and that 
necessarily belongs to the system, so no problem there), and the outline 
heading(s). I've really only begun to think about the Leo outline structure 
and how to use it to enhance the functionality/utility of the zk system. 
Cloning provides another sort of connection. In some cases I will want to 
place zettels under multiple headings.

Hierarchical outlining is a top-down system, so we have a sort of dynamic 
tension between top-down and bottom up in this, and I think that attempts 
to model the mind's ability to think both top-down and bottom-up.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> I've begun to use it.
>
> [snip]

This is quite a mind dump, and I am very hard to get along with. Oh well, 
> hopefully some of this is stimulating/amusing at worst and maybe a little 
> of it possibly useful at best.
>

It can be a good idea to break a long post like this into a series of 
shorter ones. 

As for " very hard to get along with", well, I couldn't really say.  What I 
can say, though, is that a ZK computer program can't read your mind. So you 
will need to have some degree of consistency in the syntax and planning of 
what you write and in your working procedures.  The simpler those things 
turn out to be, the easier it will be for them to stay invisibly out of the 
way.

It's better that the user's procedures be simpler rather than the 
programming, since the point of the programming is to make your life 
simpler.  But too much complexity in the programming is asking for trouble, 
because it is more likely to lead to bugs, and also because it can be so 
hard or time-consuming to write and debug that the effort may be out of 
line with the benefit.  There's always a balance to be struck.

In all cases, simpler is better.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.



On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Eventually I hope, at least my vision hopes, to 'run the show' from inside 
> the zettels. For example, I prep an external (or it can be an already 
> imported file) for the leokasten and turn the parser loose on it.  What I 
> want to happen, what happens in my vision, is the prepped zettels in the 
> file are brought in, placed in their proper headings with all the hooks in 
> place. Hooks meaning headings, title, subtitle, abstract, tags, body, 
> links, keywords, sum-next, pointers, references/citations,  Most of these 
> optional but all of them supported, is the idea.
> And they are all written into the zettel, so the system just reads the 
> zettel, does all the behind the scenes work, and I have virtually no 
> overhead because I've done it all right there in the zettel. Plus I can 
> alter or add anything later, which is essential in building up the network 
> of interlaced connections.
>

The only way that this kind of information can be parsed out of a text file 
would be if you create it using a standard syntax that is unambiguous and 
(preferably) easy to parse.  And you will have to conform to it 
rigorously.  That's not so easy.  I suggest that most of that work could 
and should be done after you have split out the text into zettels.  No 
parser required, except perhaps to split out the sections into zettels.

[snip] 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 8:32:14 AM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think Zettelkasten people tend to say the automated UID system plus the 
>> tags system fulfills the purpose of this, but I don't think it does. ... 
>> The branched threads represented stepwise, connected thoughts, while the 
>> tags represented relationships not based in any way on sequence, but merely 
>> shared or related topics. He wanted both, plus he also had headings systems 
>> and index systems.
>>
>
> I think we're not as far off as I have thought.  Luhmann's numbering 
> system provided ordered, two-way connections. We are doing two-way links, 
> though not ordered, just as Luhmann's direct slip-to-slip links were not 
> ordered, afaik. I may need to provide literate/semantic ordering somehow 
> within the system we have, in place of (and possibly better than, if I can 
> do it well) a Luhmann-type numbering system.
>

Luhmann wrote that the numbers were arbitrary, but that was not quite the 
case.  A succeeding number usually indicated an extension of the though of 
its predecessor, or a new thought that had been triggered by it.  In 
theory, these numbers wouldn't need to be related because links could serve 
that purpose.  But this organization allows one to quickly find closely 
related thoughts and trains of thought. This property is called 
"co-location" in library science.  For example, in a physical library you'd 
expect to find all the books on mountain climbing on the same section of 
shelves.

We've got that by means of the Leo outline structure.  The proximity and 
nesting of the Leo nodes fills exactly the same function.  That's why I 
didn't try to add any structure to the zettel for this purpose.  It just 
isn't needed.  And you can always rearrange the outline any time you want.  
The links will still go to the right zettels.

I've actually been making new organizing nodes contain the IDs, because I 
know from experience with my bookmarks manager that it can be useful to 
jump to headings instead of only to specific items.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> I've begun to use it.
> And already I see that I could use a command to slap a UID into an already 
> existing zettel that doesn't yet have one. I can do it (and have done it) 
> by making a new zettel and copy-pasting the body of the old one to the new 
> one, then delete the old, but that's a bit cumbersome.
> Oh boy, this gets complicated quickly. I'll also need to be able to select 
> a section of a file and create a zettel out of it. It can go in a 
> to-be-dealt-with node.  Maybe these are actually parser functions.
>

The way my system works is that each zettel is represented by a Leo node, 
and its identifier is Leo's own identifier for that node.  It's know as its 
gnx.  Leo needs to know that in order to move to that node.  If you are 
thinking about inserting your own identifiers into a body of text that you 
wrote before putting sections of it into Leo nodes, well, you can't know 
what they would be before a node is created.

Creating your own unique identifiers can be hard.  Some of the issues:  
making them truly unique, cut-and-paste errors, typos.  They can't be 
regenerated if they accidentally become deleted.  Using the gnx, they can 
be retrieved if needed (it's almost trivial to write a command for that).

My own plan for this kind of thing is to take the text that I want to split 
up into zettels and go through it a section at a time.  For each section, 
make a new zettel in Leo.  Then start to link them in Leo.  Remember, with 
the Ctrl+F6 hot key, Leo will automatically insert a back link for you.  
The way these links work, you place the cursor on the line that starts with 
:link:,  and hit the hot key.  Leo will jump to that node and insert the 
backlink if there isn't one.  You can keep expanding the set of zettels as 
you work through your original text.  Any other kind of meta data that you 
want to put in, you can add either in the original text or in the zettel 
once it has been populated.  I urge you to mark each bit of meta data just 
like :id: and :link: - with colons front and back (and a piece of metadata 
would have to be on a single line).

I've attached a screenshot of an example.  It shows the Leo view of a 
zettel and also the Restructured Text rendering.  The URL is clickable in 
both the Leo and the rendered panes.

BTW, you may notice that on the id line, after the actual identifier there 
is a string.  The string is optional, but when the hot key command creates 
a backlink, it looks for that string and adds it to the backlink.  If there 
is none, it adds the node's headline.  That way, you have some idea of what 
that backlink points to, and you get that for no effort on your part.

>
>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
> I think Zettelkasten people tend to say the automated UID system plus the 
> tags system fulfills the purpose of this, but I don't think it does. ... 
> The branched threads represented stepwise, connected thoughts, while the 
> tags represented relationships not based in any way on sequence, but merely 
> shared or related topics. He wanted both, plus he also had headings systems 
> and index systems.
>

I think we're not as far off as I have thought.  Luhmann's numbering system 
provided ordered, two-way connections. We are doing two-way links, though 
not ordered, just as Luhmann's direct slip-to-slip links were not ordered, 
afaik. I may need to provide literate/semantic ordering somehow within the 
system we have, in place of (and possibly better than, if I can do it well) 
a Luhmann-type numbering system.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-03-01 Thread andyjim

I've begun to use it.
And already I see that I could use a command to slap a UID into an already
existing zettel that doesn't yet have one. I can do it (and have done it)
by making a new zettel and copy-pasting the body of the old one to the new
one, then delete the old, but that's a bit cumbersome.
Oh boy, this gets complicated quickly. I'll also need to be able to select
a section of a file and create a zettel out of it. It can go in a
to-be-dealt-with node. Maybe these are actually parser functions.

Eventually I hope, at least my vision hopes, to 'run the show' from inside
the zettels. For example, I prep an external (or it can be an already
imported file) for the leokasten and turn the parser loose on it. What I
want to happen, what happens in my vision, is the prepped zettels in the
file are brought in, placed in their proper headings with all the hooks in
place. Hooks meaning headings, title, subtitle, abstract, tags, body,
links, keywords, sum-next, pointers, references/citations, Most of these
optional but all of them supported, is the idea.
And they are all written into the zettel, so the system just reads the
zettel, does all the behind the scenes work, and I have virtually no
overhead because I've done it all right there in the zettel. Plus I can
alter or add anything later, which is essential in building up the network
of interlaced connections.

I know. Soon you're going to have to tell me to go sit in the corner and
shut up. Probably right after the following:

I have yet another Luhmann-based concern. Luhmann's numbering system
created ordered, branched threads, meaningfully connected, meaningfully
ordered. It wasn't just a way to create UIDs, though the numbers did also
serve as UIDs. If he were to pull out all the cards numbered under "37",
for example, it would be an ordered, multi-branched tree of sequenced
thoughts. When he had a link from some card under "16" to some card under
"37", in effect it created a link, not just between those two cards, but
between one ordered, branched tree and another. He could pull out the
entire tree(s) and walk up and down the sequence, investigating its
branches in search of usable ideas.

I think Zettelkasten people tend to say the automated UID system plus the
tags system fulfills the purpose of this, but I don't think it does.
Luhmann also used tags, but that was a separate system entirely, and gave
him yet another cross-connected, indexed system within the system. He used
tags for a different purpose. I think if tags had been able to take the
place of those cascading threads of sequenced thoughts he would have had no
need for the complex, branched, silly-looking numbering system he used.
There was method in his madness. The branched threads represented
stepwise, connected thoughts, while the tags represented relationships not
based in any way on sequence, but merely shared or related topics. He
wanted both, plus he also had headings systems and index systems.

This is quite a mind dump, and I am very hard to get along with. Oh well,
hopefully some of this is stimulating/amusing at worst and maybe a little
of it possibly useful at best.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-03-01 Thread Thomas Passin


On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 7:13:31 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 11:36:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>> I changed the hot keys  to Ctrl+F8. Ctrl+F7, Ctrl+F6.  They don't seem to 
>> conflict with either the OS hot keys, or Leo key assignments.  According to 
>> what @Austin(Xu)Wang wrote above, you might have to edit them to use "Meta" 
>> instead of "Ctrl".
>>
>> I also fixed a bug I hadn't known about for the insert new zettel 
>> command.  I've attached the revised leo file with the commands.  Just 
>> replace the old version with it.  This file with the revised commands works 
>> for me on both Windows and Linux.
>>
>
> It works in your file. I deleted the @settings node in my file and copied 
> yours to it. Reloaded All Settings. Does not work. I opened a new file and 
> copied it into that, reloaded All Settings. Does not work. Still works in 
> your file.  
> Wow.  A puzzle.
>
> Ok, restarted Leo. Now it works.
>

I always save the file after a change to any @settings.  I'm no sure, but I 
*think* that Reload Settings saves all the changed files, but I'm not sure 
so I play it safe.  And I have also had cases where I had to restart Leo to 
get a setting to work.  Dunno why. 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-03-01 Thread andyjim

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 11:36:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> I changed the hot keys  to Ctrl+F8. Ctrl+F7, Ctrl+F6.  They don't seem to 
> conflict with either the OS hot keys, or Leo key assignments.  According to 
> what @Austin(Xu)Wang wrote above, you might have to edit them to use "Meta" 
> instead of "Ctrl".
>
> I also fixed a bug I hadn't known about for the insert new zettel 
> command.  I've attached the revised leo file with the commands.  Just 
> replace the old version with it.  This file with the revised commands works 
> for me on both Windows and Linux.
>

It works in your file. I deleted the @settings node in my file and copied 
yours to it. Reloaded All Settings. Does not work. I opened a new file and 
copied it into that, reloaded All Settings. Does not work. Still works in 
your file.  
Wow.  A puzzle.

Ok, restarted Leo. Now it works.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-03-01 Thread Thomas Passin

I changed the hot keys  to Ctrl+F8. Ctrl+F7, Ctrl+F6.  They don't seem to 
conflict with either the OS hot keys, or Leo key assignments.  According to 
what @Austin(Xu)Wang wrote above, you might have to edit them to use "Meta" 
instead of "Ctrl".

I also fixed a bug I hadn't known about for the insert new zettel command.  
I've attached the revised leo file with the commands.  Just replace the old 
version with it.  This file with the revised commands works for me on both 
Windows and Linux.

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:26:56 AM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:36:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>>
>> The commands work on linux (and I was able to remove some unnecessary 
>> code).  The problem seems to be that Linux intercepts Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 for 
>> its own purposes (like resizing a window).  Presumably it's more or less 
>> the same on the Mac.  I'm trying to come up with alternate shortcut keys 
>> that aren't in use by either the OS or Leo.
>>
>
> Both Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 worked correctly initially. Alt-F7 still does.  
> I'll reinstall the first Alt-F8 command and see if it works as it did 
> before (as soon as I find it again).
>

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zettel2.leo
Description: Binary data

Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-03-01 Thread andyjim

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:36:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> The commands work on linux (and I was able to remove some unnecessary 
> code).  The problem seems to be that Linux intercepts Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 for 
> its own purposes (like resizing a window).  Presumably it's more or less 
> the same on the Mac.  I'm trying to come up with alternate shortcut keys 
> that aren't in use by either the OS or Leo.
>

Both Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 worked correctly initially. Alt-F7 still does.  I'll 
reinstall the first Alt-F8 command and see if it works as it did before (as 
soon as I find it again).

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread Xu Wang

I tried to figure out which key is "Alt" on Mac, but never find out.

The "Command" key is catched as Ctrl,  the "Control" and "Option" key are
all catched as Meta on my MacBook.

Thomas Passin  于2020年3月1日周日 下午12:36写道：

>
>
> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 11:02:07 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't have a mac, but I installed the commands on a linux version --
>> I'm running one in a virtual machine.  It doesn't work there, either.  This
>> is a shock to me - everything in the code should work no matter what the
>> OS.  I'll see if I can track down what's going on.
>>
>
> The commands work on linux (and I was able to remove some unnecessary
> code).  The problem seems to be that Linux intercepts Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 for
> its own purposes (like resizing a window).  Presumably it's more or less
> the same on the Mac.  I'm trying to come up with alternate shortcut keys
> that aren't in use by either the OS or Leo.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread Thomas Passin

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 11:02:07 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:

>
> I don't have a mac, but I installed the commands on a linux version -- I'm 
> running one in a virtual machine.  It doesn't work there, either.  This is 
> a shock to me - everything in the code should work no matter what the OS.  
> I'll see if I can track down what's going on.
>

The commands work on linux (and I was able to remove some unnecessary 
code).  The problem seems to be that Linux intercepts Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 for 
its own purposes (like resizing a window).  Presumably it's more or less 
the same on the Mac.  I'm trying to come up with alternate shortcut keys 
that aren't in use by either the OS or Leo.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread Thomas Passin



On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 8:01:42 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 11:30:58 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>>
>> Paste the code above into this new node.  The new node has be a child of 
>> an @settings node in either your MyLeoSettings.leo file or your ZK leo 
>> file, so move it as needed.  Then reload the settings.  The hot-key will be 
>> ALT-F8.
>>
>
> Ok, added it to my current Leo zk file. What it does now: 
>   does not create new node
>   inserts id line in the body of the selected node
>   does not insert timestamp
>   does not shift focus to the body
>

Hmm, it's working on my system.  The command needs to be the child of an 
@settings node - meaning that the name of the node is @settings.  Normally 
that node is the first node in the file, but I don't know if that is 
required or not.
 

> If I hit it again, repeats the id line under the previous one, same id 
> number
> Added it also to myLeoSettings file; same thing
> Removed it from the Leo zk file, leaving it in the myLeoSettings file; 
> same thing.
> Then realized I didn't know what 'reload settings' entails. Did 
> Settings>Reload Settings>Reload-Settings, also Reload-All-Settings.
> Same thing.
>

You always need to do Reload Settings after any change like this to the 
settings.

Finally I quit Leo and restarted.  Now it does not respond to Alt-F8 at 
> all. Still responds correctly to Alt-F7. Also, for some reason it dropped 
> all tabs except the one I had open when I quite Leo. Before it has reloaded 
> all tabs I had when I shut down.
>

I don't have a mac, but I installed the commands on a linux version -- I'm 
running one in a virtual machine.  It doesn't work there, either.  This is 
a shock to me - everything in the code should work no matter what the OS.  
I'll see if I can track down what's going on.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread andyjim

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 8:36:29 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> This one is easy to adjust.  You would put another setting into 
> MyLeoSettings.py with the time format you want.  If you like, myself or 
> someone could write down the string format for your particular format. The 
> name of the setting is
>
> body-time-format-string
>

Looks like I do need help on that. A search did not find it in Leo help. I 
think the best for the 'created:' line would be -MM-DD. I don't see the 
need for HH-MM-SS, as I just want to know the date created. I prefer 
hyphens to slashes. 
example: "created: 2020-02-29" 

Now, I want the 'created' date to refer to the date the original content 
was created, not the date the zettel was created, so while it's fine to 
automate it for a new note in a new zettel, I'll need to be able to reset 
that data manually for imported items, which go back to 1990. Maybe when 
the parser sees a "created:" line in the formatted zettel-to-be-imported, 
it accepts it and does not insert a 'created:' line.

I also would like to know last modified date, but that complicates it I'm 
sure. My own preference would be that it auto-updates the 'modified' date 
whenever the file saves. Sometimes imported files will have both 'created' 
and 'modified' dates, as I do enter those in files I write.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread andyjim

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 11:30:58 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Paste the code above into this new node.  The new node has be a child of 
> an @settings node in either your MyLeoSettings.leo file or your ZK leo 
> file, so move it as needed.  Then reload the settings.  The hot-key will be 
> ALT-F8.
>

Ok, added it to my current Leo zk file. What it does now: 
  does not create new node
  inserts id line in the body of the selected node
  does not insert timestamp
  does not shift focus to the body

If I hit it again, repeats the id line under the previous one, same id 
number
Added it also to myLeoSettings file; same thing
Removed it from the Leo zk file, leaving it in the myLeoSettings file; same 
thing.
Then realized I didn't know what 'reload settings' entails. Did 
Settings>Reload Settings>Reload-Settings, also Reload-All-Settings.
Same thing.
Finally I quit Leo and restarted.  Now it does not respond to Alt-F8 at 
all. Still responds correctly to Alt-F7. Also, for some reason it dropped 
all tabs except the one I had open when I quite Leo. Before it has reloaded 
all tabs I had when I shut down.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread Thomas Passin


On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 9:59:33 AM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> [snip]
> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 12:28:27 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
> I think that's the solution for my use case. If, for example, as in The 
> Archive, Command-N (no matter where I am at the moment) creates a new 
> zettel, in the 'temporary notes' node, plants the id, and the 'created' 
> timestamp, and shifts focus to the body, then I have a distraction-free way 
> to immediately capture a new thought bubble. This will cleanly initiate the 
> process of thought capture.  I might want a 'back button' to take me back 
> where I was before this event, but that's another matter for another day.
>

Here is a modified version of the "Insert-Zettel" command.  It creates a 
new node. inserts the id and creation date, and puts the cursor in the node 
under them ready to type.  It doesn't locate the new node in a "temporary" 
part of the outline - that could be added later.  

"""Insert a node with id and creation timestamp strings"""
undoType = 'zettel-insert-node'
c.k.simulateCommand('insert-node')

w = c.frame.body.wrapper
oldSel = w.getSelectionRange()
w.deleteTextSelection()
s = ':id: ' + p.gnx
id_label = f':id: {p.gnx}\n'
time_string = ':created: ' + c.getTime(body=True) + '\n'

i = w.getInsertPoint()
w.insert(i, f'{id_label}{time_string}')

c.bodyWantsFocusNow()
c.frame.body.onBodyChanged(undoType, oldSel=oldSel)

To use this command, delete the old @setting node for inserting the id, and 
then create a new @setting node with the headline

@command zettel-insert-node @key=Alt+F8

Paste the code above into this new node.  The new node has be a child of an 
@settings node in either your MyLeoSettings.leo file or your ZK leo file, 
so move it as needed.  Then reload the settings.  The hot-key will be 
ALT-F8.

If you decide you'd rather leave the cursor in the node's headline instead, 
change the next to last line so it reads like this:

#c.bodyWantsFocusNow()

This will turn the line into a comment and cause it not to be executed.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-29 Thread andyjim

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 12:28:27 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> From my reading, he immediately numbered it. Then he added links to other 
> likely zettels.  And then he got into the writing.  He didn't write these 
> slips quickly, but only after mulling over temporary notes he had taken 
> previously.  Maybe temporary notes are really what you have in mind here.  
> My own notion for that is to have a top-level node, maybe outside the 
> zettelkasten top-level node but in the same leo file.  These temporary 
> notes would all go there.
>

I think something like that is exactly what I need.  Luhmann didn't capture 
his ephemeral note with a computer.  I expect it went in the wastebasket 
after he gave it careful consideration and wrote a well-thought out zettel 
from it.  What I want to do is really just a tweak on that. I want to 
capture the ephemeral note, the spontaneous thought, on a blank slip with 
no title. Then after I chase that thought and write it well enough for the 
moment, I'll place it in the system by entering headings, tags, keywords, 
links, pointers.  Or, I don't even have to do that until another time.

I think a 'slush file', a file even of untitled slips is probably the 
solution for my crazy thought process. That way I'm not constrained in any 
way, except that at some point I have to complete the task of headings, 
titles, tags, keywords, links, pointers. I do like the idea of the first 
line being the default title if I don't enter a title myself.  

>
> We could even have the hot-key put the new node into the temporary notes 
> section, if that's what you want.  From a programming point of view, there 
> would have to be a node with a fixed name, like "temporary notes".  
> Otherwise the command behind the hot key wouldn't know where to put the new 
> node.  If you don't want that, it would just create the new node right 
> where you are in the ZK, and you could move it yourself.  We already just 
> about have that, with -I.
>

I think that's the solution for my use case. If, for example, as in The 
Archive, Command-N (no matter where I am at the moment) creates a new 
zettel, in the 'temporary notes' node, plants the id, and the 'created' 
timestamp, and shifts focus to the body, then I have a distraction-free way 
to immediately capture a new thought bubble. This will cleanly initiate the 
process of thought capture.  I might want a 'back button' to take me back 
where I was before this event, but that's another matter for another day.

Then I have the process of entering all the 'hooks' (headings, tags, title, 
keywords, links, pointers, references, each of which is a different type, a 
different hook for searches), but I can do that whenever I 'get a round 
tuit'.  That too is a process of creative thinking, but a very different 
one from the spontaneous process of capturing the bubbles.  And it is an 
enormous relief, believe me, to separate these two creative processes, each 
of which is an adventure in its own right, but each of which can interfere 
with the other if you try to do them both at once. At least that's the way 
my crazy mind works. 

No, not necessarily.  This kind of back-and-forth is needed to home in on 
> how the thing should work. Well, there's going to be a limit to how much 
> time someone is willing to spend on a feature that you want one way but 
> they don't think it should work that way.  As long as we are figuring that 
> out together, to come up with features that could be fairly general, it's 
> all good.
>

Thanks, I'll try to keep enunciating my wild ideas about how it should 
work, and you keep doing only what you have space and energy to do.  I get 
that.  Likely none of us will ever see our ideal vision play out.  But that 
won't keep us from wishing.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 11:28:37 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:

>
> Also realized I don't have to title it until I'm darn good and ready.  And 
> I don't have to ID it and time stamp it before writing either. I can do 
> those later as well.  
>

That's exactly right.  For myself, I don't like to have unlabeled nodes 
floating around, because I forget pretty soon what they are supposed to be, 
especially if there are more than one.  The ID will never change, so you 
can put it in any time.  The "create" timestamp will just be whenever you 
put it in.  That seems fine to me.

> All of that is a great help, yet my optimum situation would still be: no 
> matter where I am in my system, when a new thought strikes, I just hit a 
> hot key and start typing.  I don't have to locate and go to the outline 
> where I want the new zettel, position the focus and the cursor where I want 
> the new zettel.  
>

The way I am picturing it, when you say "hit a hot key", I think that you 
mean "create a new node".  I do that by hitting -I.   Isn't how you 
do it already?  That gives you a new node.  Click in the body and start 
typing, give it a name and get the id/timestamp later.  

If you don't mean that, now would be a good time to say so.

For any node (zettel), where ever it is at the moment, that's not cast in 
concrete.  You can always move it around later.  That doesn't change the id.

> Probably I don't even know yet where I will want it, but at any rate I 
> don't want to think about any of that. Just hit a hot key and type. Take 
> care of all the overhead later, after I've completed the thought.  
>

Right, that's just what you get with -I.  The only difference is that 
the node comes up with the cursor in the headline instead of the body.  If 
that's what you really want, we could change current insert-id command (as 
I think I said in my previous post) so that it creates a new node, inserts 
the id and timestamp, and puts the cursor in the body for you.

> With The Archive zettelkasten software, for example, you hit command-N and 
> start typing. That simple. In Mr. Luhmann's case, he pulls a new blank slip 
> from his supply, directly to hand I presume, and starts writing.  Does the 
> overhead later. 
>

>From my reading, he immediately numbered it. Then he added links to other 
likely zettels.  And then he got into the writing.  He didn't write these 
slips quickly, but only after mulling over temporary notes he had taken 
previously.  Maybe temporary notes are really what you have in mind here.  
My own notion for that is to have a top-level node, maybe outside the 
zettelkasten top-level node but in the same leo file.  These temporary 
notes would all go there.

We could even have the hot-key put the new node into the temporary notes 
section, if that's what you want.  From a programming point of view, there 
would have to be a node with a fixed name, like "temporary notes".  
Otherwise the command behind the hot key wouldn't know where to put the new 
node.  If you don't want that, it would just create the new node right 
where you are in the ZK, and you could move it yourself.  We already just 
about have that, with -I.

> And people thought this pure genius!  Maybe it is.
>
> I'm not easy to get along with, am I?  And your proper response to me, I 
> would think, will be, "Son, if you want things exactly your way like that, 
> learn python and Leo yourself and learn how to make stuff like that happen!"
>

No, not necessarily.  This kind of back-and-forth is needed to home in on 
how the thing should work. Well, there's going to be a limit to how much 
time someone is willing to spend on a feature that you want one way but 
they don't think it should work that way.  As long as we are figuring that 
out together, to come up with features that could be fairly general, it's 
all good.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 10:29:54 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> In Thomas Passin's prototype, which I downloaded, 1st he types a title 
> heading, 2nd a @rst subheading, with title (for Sphinx, which is fine), 3rd 
> a @path heading, with title, 4th a @rst subheading, again with title, and 
> that 4th node is our zettel.  Four new nodes, four titles before I start 
> writing.  At least that is how I understand it (Thomas correct me).  For me 
> that is a lot of overhead and distraction before I can start typing.  I 
> don't even want to decide upon a title, because I may not know yet what the 
> best title should be.  I just want to hit a hot key and start 
> writing/thinking.  Title can come after I've completed the thought.
>
> I agree, and as I said earlier, I only used the @rst and @path in the node 
names because I wanted a quick and dirty way to export the tree to the file 
system.  And I only wanted that at the start because I wanted to see how it 
integrated with my bookmark manager.

I'm not doing that any more, because I'm convinced that writing an exporter 
will be pretty easy.  If you download the more recent example I posted, 
which has only the node name in the headline, (and change to the latest 
version of the insert-id command I also posted) the process goes like this:

1. -I to create a new node. Type the node title you want into the 
headline.
2. Click in the body (in the future, we will move the cursor into the body 
as part of the insert-id command if that's what people want).
3.  to insert the id and timestamp at the same time.
4. Start typing.

You would have to do 1, 2 and 4 anyway, to get a new node.  So step 3 is 
the only new step, and I've found it's very quick and becomes automatic 
very soon.

Oh, by the way, to get the timestamp format you said you like, create a 
node as a child of the @settings node in MyLeoSettings,leo.  Paste the 
following into the node's headline (i.e., its name):

@string body-time-format-string = %Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S

Or you can even put it into the leo file that has your zettelkasten (ZK).  
Then reload the settings, using the Settings menu (Settings->Reload 
Settings->Reload-All-Settings).

If you put it into the ZK leo file, it will affect the format of the 
timestamp for only that leo file.  If you put it into MyLeoSettings.leo, it 
will apply to all outlines.

I have already done this on my system.

If you want to type a lot of material into a node and then split it out 
later, we can write a command to do that splitting for you, as long as you 
are willing to insert some kind of separator between the sections to be 
split.  If the first line after the separator was always a title for the 
node, that would be even better.  Otherwise you would have to add a title 
for each of the split-out nodes after they were created.

But don't forget, the published suggested way to get the most out of the 
system is to think carefully about the contents of each zettel.  Creating 
and naming a new node would be a small part of that effort.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-28 Thread andyjim

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 8:31:34 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Here's what I've been doing, and I find it very unobtrusive.  I create a 
> new node where I want it, using the usual -I.  Of course, I type in 
> the node's name as usual. Then -F8, -F7.  I hardly notice I'm 
> doing it.  It would be easy to combine all three of these commands in a 
> single keystroke, but so far I haven't felt the need.
>

Ok, I just did that. But I don't understand why we went through the four 
headings to create the node in your prototype (I copied that for my first 
attempt), but for this new one all we do is write the title and then ID it 
and time stamp it and that's our zettel. One heading instead of four. No 
@rst headings, no @path heading. Don't understand what's going on.

Also realized I don't have to title it until I'm darn good and ready.  And 
I don't have to ID it and time stamp it before writing either. I can do 
those later as well.  All of that is a great help, yet my optimum situation 
would still be: no matter where I am in my system, when a new thought 
strikes, I just hit a hot key and start typing.  I don't have to locate and 
go to the outline where I want the new zettel, position the focus and the 
cursor where I want the new zettel.  Probably I don't even know yet where I 
will want it, but at any rate I don't want to think about any of that. Just 
hit a hot key and type. Take care of all the overhead later, after I've 
completed the thought.  

With The Archive zettelkasten software, for example, you hit command-N and 
start typing. That simple. In Mr. Luhmann's case, he pulls a new blank slip 
from his supply, directly to hand I presume, and starts writing.  Does the 
overhead later. And people thought this pure genius!  Maybe it is.

I'm not easy to get along with, am I?  And your proper response to me, I 
would think, will be, "Son, if you want things exactly your way like that, 
learn python and Leo yourself and learn how to make stuff like that happen!"

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-28 Thread andyjim

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 5:52:09 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
> I have a function bind to a key doing that and can confirm, it's very 
> useful to have a new entry generated and focused instantly.
> I also let it search the proper node in the my prefered leo-file, so it 
> will always created at the same location.
>
>   I am suspicious that if I have to type in three or four headings, decide 
>> upon titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel,
>>
>
> Leo has a function to replace text as you type ( 
> http://leoeditor.com/abbreviations.html 
> 
>  
> ), which you could use to create a new entry from  template in an empty 
> node.
>

I would like to learn how to do that.  And how to make the appropriate 
template to create a new 'zettel' in Thomas' format.

But what do you mean with title? Leo does not force you to use a title, but 
> for something meaningful you can't automate this, or do you?
>

In Thomas Passin's prototype, which I downloaded, 1st he types a title 
heading, 2nd a @rst subheading, with title (for Sphinx, which is fine), 3rd 
a @path heading, with title, 4th a @rst subheading, again with title, and 
that 4th node is our zettel.  Four new nodes, four titles before I start 
writing.  At least that is how I understand it (Thomas correct me).  For me 
that is a lot of overhead and distraction before I can start typing.  I 
don't even want to decide upon a title, because I may not know yet what the 
best title should be.  I just want to hit a hot key and start 
writing/thinking.  Title can come after I've completed the thought.

You see Thomas, in his posts below, holding my hand.  That's because I am a 
Leo newbie and also I'm not a programmer.  Everything in this playground is 
baby steps for me, which is why I am leaning on Thomas, who is taking the 
lead on this.  I am a pain in the derriere to these great folks, but so far 
they haven't thrown me out. 

>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.



On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
> Something you may be interessted for this:
>
> new = c.insertChild()
> new.b = f'{id_label}{time_string}'
>
> I'm not sure about about focus on the title in this case, as I removed 
> this. But this should simplify your code and process. 
> It creates a child-node, gives it focus and sets the body-text.
>

Yes, that would be a way to get everything done with one keystroke.  The 
reason I haven't moved to to doing it this way is only because I have 
thought that it would be better to stay with good old -I for node 
insertions.  It's an interesting little UX question, isn't it?

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-28 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor



Am Freitag, 28. Februar 2020 15:19:38 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:

 It's not about storage, it's about reducing visual clutter in the text.
>

Understandable. I have that problem too. Im thinking about moving my 
metadata to p.v.u 
and adding a metadata-widget on the editor-side to not forget them. But 
this makes 
exporting data a bit more cumbersome.

Something other I think about is adding alternative editor-widgets, so you 
can choose preferable view
per data, which then would just show an editor with embedded metadta-view, 
while the node-content would
stay together as it is now. But this demands some patches in leo, which 
cumbersome in it's own way. 

 After all, how likely is it that some other system could used the exact 
> format of the zettels with no change at all? 
>

Well, I use the same metadata-format...and probably some people might be 
starting using it too at some point.
Why should this be a problem? It's not like we all share our personal data.

>From your other mail:

>  I revised the command to insert an ID, so that it also inserts the 
> creating date.  Here's the new script:
>

Something you may be interessted for this:

new = c.insertChild()
new.b = f'{id_label}{time_string}'

I'm not sure about about focus on the title in this case, as I removed 
this. But this should simplify your code and process. 
It creates a child-node, gives it focus and sets the body-text.

If the headline is not in edit-mode, you can try calling c.editHeadline()

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 5:37:53 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
>
> Am Freitag, 28. Februar 2020 02:11:20 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:
>
> BTW Using "created" instead of "timestamp" would be more 
>>> self-documentating.
>>>
>>
>> That's up in the air for me.  Should it represent the creation time or 
>> the last-modified time? 
>>
>
> Both have value, so add both.
>
>  I don't want to add yet another piece of metadata if it's not needed.  
>>
>
>  It's always better to collect more than neccessary than to some day miss 
> what's needed. Storage is cheap.
>

It's not about storage, it's about reducing visual clutter in the text.

> Yet the Leo id does actually include a timestamp for the creation time.  
>>
>
> It's not expliciet, nor portable. You must be aware of it when you decide 
> to change the ID or software some day. 
>

Well, that's a point.  I had pictured running some script over all the 
notes to pick out the time format from the id string when and if you 
decided to change.  So there wouldn't need to be a separate line for the 
creation time. After all, how likely is it that some other system could 
used the exact format of the zettels with no change at all?  But maybe it 
would be good to have that creation string be in the same, more readable 
format as the timestamp date I'm already providing.

> And this is something which can be easily move out of sight. Ok, that's my 
> habits as a devloper shining. 
> Non-devs probably see it different. But general experience with those 
> things is that they should be clear. 
>
> I'd like to settle on one specific name for that timestamp, though, and 
>> finalize it soon before I have too many nodes the other way.
>>
>
> Strictly spoken, the name alone is not much of a problem. One can always 
> write a script for mass-changing this. that is the advantage of structured 
> data.
> What it can't do is adding missing data. But of course I only speak from 
> perspektive of a developer, so take it with a grain. 
>

A good developer puts on the hat of a user, and switches back and forth, 
all the time.  Though that user might be the developer's own self because 
the developer wants to use the system once developed.

More important than capturing all the metadata one might ever want, is to 
make the system backwards compatible so that if you add something later, 
the earlier work is still as usable as ever.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.



On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 8:49:45 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:

> On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:51:42 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>>  Sorry to bring it up again, but one of the key things for me is to be 
>> able to launch a new zettel in an instant, without required steps before I 
>> can start writing.  I am suspicious that if I have to type in three or four 
>> headings, decide upon titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel, that I 
>> might end up not using the system.  Currently all I do to start a new 
>> thought is skip a line and write.
>>
>
I revised the command to insert an ID, so that it also inserts the creating 
date.  Here's the new script:

"""Insert a node id/tomestamp string at the cursor."""
undoType = 'zettel-insert-id'
w = c.frame.body.wrapper
oldSel = w.getSelectionRange()
w.deleteTextSelection()
s = ':id: ' + p.gnx
id_label = f':id: {p.gnx}\n'
time_string = ':created: ' + c.getTime(body=True) + '\n'

i = w.getInsertPoint()
w.insert(i, f'{id_label}{time_string}')

c.frame.body.onBodyChanged(undoType, oldSel=oldSel)

Now to create a new node for a zettel, create a node, type in its name, 
click the mouse in the body, and hit -F8 (or bind it to any other key 
you like).  You get both the id line and a second line that starts with 
:created:.

The headline of the node for this command in MyLeoSettings would be

@command zettel-insert-id @key=Alt+F8

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:51:42 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:

>  Sorry to bring it up again, but one of the key things for me is to be 
> able to launch a new zettel in an instant, without required steps before I 
> can start writing.  I am suspicious that if I have to type in three or four 
> headings, decide upon titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel, that I 
> might end up not using the system.  Currently all I do to start a new 
> thought is skip a line and write.
>

I think in terms of one node per zettel.  Leo will let you have a node 
without a headline - that is, the name of the node - but I think that's 
asking for trouble, so I always give it a name.  These names are very 
helpful when you scan a group of zettels, and when searching.  So for me, I 
always want a node name, and I consider that to be the title of the 
zettel,  I don't have to type it into the zettel itself.

If you want to type in a stream of consciousness manner, then it would be 
easy to write a script to split the text into separate nodes.  The script 
would need some way to know where to split.  That could be, say, two blank 
lines in a row - if you will never use two blank lines for anything else -  
my preferred marker of '===', or something similar.

The script would not be able to divine a name for the new nodes, though.  
So you still would need some way to designate that.  The easiest thing 
would be to use the first line after the marker as the title.

This wouldn't be too intrusive for you, would it?

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.


On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:51:42 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
> . Personally, though American, I have gotten used to the European date 
> format: YYMMDD and have come to prefer it. I've used it in filenames as 
> well as internally in files for about five years now (actually I hyphenate 
> it: YY-MM-DD).
>

This one is easy to adjust.  You would put another setting into 
MyLeoSettings.py with the time format you want.  If you like, myself or 
someone could write down the string format for your particular format. The 
name of the setting is

body-time-format-string

 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.


On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:51:42 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
> Another ugly and inconvenient question: Are you contemplating a command to 
> automate starting a new zettel (is it ok to use that term for the time 
> being? I gather you plan to find a new term.)?  Sorry to bring it up again, 
> but one of the key things for me is to be able to launch a new zettel in an 
> instant, without required steps before I can start writing.  I am 
> suspicious that if I have to type in three or four headings, decide upon 
> titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel, that I might end up not using 
> the system.  Currently all I do to start a new thought is skip a line and 
> write. I never have to shift attention to accomplishing a mechanical 
> process before I can start writing the new thought.  For my very peculiar 
> (and inconvenient) profile of creative thought process I need it to be very 
> nearly that simple, quick and non-distracting.
>

Here's what I've been doing, and I find it very unobtrusive.  I create a 
new node where I want it, using the usual -I.  Of course, I type in 
the node's name as usual. Then -F8, -F7.  I hardly notice I'm 
doing it.  It would be easy to combine all three of these commands in a 
single keystroke, but so far I haven't felt the need.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-28 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor


Am Freitag, 28. Februar 2020 04:51:42 UTC+1 schrieb andyjim:

Another ugly and inconvenient question: Are you contemplating a command to 
> automate starting a new zettel (is it ok to use that term for the time 
> being? I gather you plan to find a new term.)?  Sorry to bring it up again, 
> but one of the key things for me is to be able to launch a new zettel in an 
> instant, without required steps before I can start writing.
>

I have a function bind to a key doing that and can confirm, it's very 
useful to have a new entry generated and focused instantly.
I also let it search the proper node in the my prefered leo-file, so it 
will always created at the same location.

  I am suspicious that if I have to type in three or four headings, decide 
> upon titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel,
>

Leo has a function to replace text as you type ( 
http://leoeditor.com/abbreviations.html ), which you could use to create a 
new entry from  template in an empty node.
But what do you mean with title? Leo does not force you to use a title, but 
for something meaningful you can't automate this, or do you?
 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-28 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor


Am Freitag, 28. Februar 2020 02:11:20 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:

I think the capabilities of the Nav tab will go a long way.  
>

True, there is also that. I always forget it, because it's so bad UX.

BTW Using "created" instead of "timestamp" would be more self-documentating.
>>
>
> That's up in the air for me.  Should it represent the creation time or the 
> last-modified time? 
>

Both have value, so add both.

 I don't want to add yet another piece of metadata if it's not needed.  
>

 It's always better to collect more than neccessary than to some day miss 
what's needed. Storage is cheap.

Yet the Leo id does actually include a timestamp for the creation time.  
>

It's not expliciet, nor portable. You must be aware of it when you decide 
to change the ID or software some day. 
And this is something which can be easily move out of sight. Ok, that's my 
habits as a devloper shining. 
Non-devs probably see it different. But general experience with those 
things is that they should be clear. 

I'd like to settle on one specific name for that timestamp, though, and 
> finalize it soon before I have too many nodes the other way.
>

Strictly spoken, the name alone is not much of a problem. One can always 
write a script for mass-changing this. that is the advantage of structured 
data.
What it can't do is adding missing data. But of course I only speak from 
perspektive of a developer, so take it with a grain. 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-27 Thread andyjim

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 8:11:20 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> That's up in the air for me.  Should it represent the creation time or the 
> last-modified time?  @AndyJim sounded like he'd like to use a last-modified 
> time, because he likes to see what he was working on at a certain period.  
> I don't want to add yet another piece of metadata if it's not needed.  It 
> would be simple to modify the id insertion command to also insert a time 
> the command was run, so it's doable if people think it would be important. 
> Yet the Leo id does actually include a timestamp for the creation time.  
> It's just not formatted to be as readable.  So by inserting the id, we 
> automatically have it anyway.
>
> I'd like to settle on one specific name for that timestamp, though, and 
> finalize it soon before I have too many nodes the other way.
>

I'm afraid my preference and use case on this will complicate rather than 
simplify. You have to do what works for you, but what I personally am 
interested in is the date I first wrote the thought plus the date 
modified.  But to make it considerably worse, the items I want to import 
originated over a 25 year period. It is meaningful and helpful to me to 
know the date I wrote it. Somewhere in the process I will obviously have to 
enter original dates by hand for everything except a new unit for a new 
thought. I accept that. There is no way to automate it. The system's 
automated time stamp when the item is created is fine for a new thought, 
though uniform format for both situations would be nice. Personally, though 
American, I have gotten used to the European date format: YYMMDD and have 
come to prefer it. I've used it in filenames as well as internally in files 
for about five years now (actually I hyphenate it: YY-MM-DD). 
But that's just me. You must do what works for you.  Bottom line is you 
must work within the limitations of Leo and also your time and interest 
budget for this project. I already know and accept that my personal vision 
for all that would go into my own optimal system is way too ambitious for 
the scope of this project. 

Another ugly and inconvenient question: Are you contemplating a command to 
automate starting a new zettel (is it ok to use that term for the time 
being? I gather you plan to find a new term.)?  Sorry to bring it up again, 
but one of the key things for me is to be able to launch a new zettel in an 
instant, without required steps before I can start writing.  I am 
suspicious that if I have to type in three or four headings, decide upon 
titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel, that I might end up not using 
the system.  Currently all I do to start a new thought is skip a line and 
write. I never have to shift attention to accomplishing a mechanical 
process before I can start writing the new thought.  For my very peculiar 
(and inconvenient) profile of creative thought process I need it to be very 
nearly that simple, quick and non-distracting. 

It's this kind of thing that leads me to say you must do what works for 
you. I think even trying to meet some of my nastier requirements would 
impose way too much load for what you are able to invest in this project.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-27 Thread Thomas Passin

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:31:57 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
>
> Am Donnerstag, 27. Februar 2020 15:46:04 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:
>
> But in general you are not wrong here. Leo Editor can be used that way, 
>>> even though it's not be the best for this. But it's not the worst either. 
>>> It depends on how you polish it and yourself. Using Leo in a way to copy 
>>> Luhmanns Zettelkasten could be done with 2-3 Simple functions. All you need 
>>> is something to get the reference of node, and something to got from a link 
>>> in text to the referenced node. First one is quite simple, just add an 
>>> entry to the context-menu to get the leo-internal id. Second one could be 
>>> achived by reusing the existing Hyperlink-Click-function and add support 
>>> for links with leo:// as protocol. Then the rest is up to you to use it and 
>>> fill your box.
>>>
>>
>> Just so. That's what I have worked out in some of the posts on this 
>> thread;  a small example, with working code for the three functions, is 
>> attached to my Feb 25 post on the thread  "Comments re the ZettelKasten 
>> work".  The idea is to have something as minimal and non-obtrusive as 
>> possible, yet still be useful.
>>
>>
> Yes, that's also a way to do it. But I was talking more about a way to 
> insert links in text, and let the choose. So you can have as many links in 
> a node as you want. 
>

In what I am suggesting, you can have as many links in a node as you like.  
So I think we're covered here.

> After all that's some differences in Luhmanns system. But I guess this is 
> not something that can be done in a @command or plugin.
> But you could build a search-interface for listing multiple links in a 
> node and choosing a target.
>

I think the capabilities of the Nav tab will go a long way.  Eventually, a 
dedicated plugin may be useful, but I don't think that time is yet.  Think 
of it - if you type a search phrase into the Nav box, but don't type 
 yet, it will show you all the headlines that contain the search 
phrase.  That will probably be all you need in many cases.  If not, you can 
go ahead and press , and in addition see all the bodies that have 
matching text.  It's true that you can't do boolean searches and 
wildstrings in the current Nav box, but presumable that could be a future 
enhancement.

And the Nav search is *fast*. I loaded the leoPyRef.leo outline, which 
contains much of the Leo codebase, and found a string in the last node.  
Then I selected the root node and ran a Nav search for that string.  There 
was no perceptible delay.

But funny that we both came up with the same colon-based-syntax for 
> embedding metadata in nodes :)
>
> BTW Using "created" instead of "timestamp" would be more 
> self-documentating.
>

That's up in the air for me.  Should it represent the creation time or the 
last-modified time?  @AndyJim sounded like he'd like to use a last-modified 
time, because he likes to see what he was working on at a certain period.  
I don't want to add yet another piece of metadata if it's not needed.  It 
would be simple to modify the id insertion command to also insert a time 
the command was run, so it's doable if people think it would be important. 
Yet the Leo id does actually include a timestamp for the creation time.  
It's just not formatted to be as readable.  So by inserting the id, we 
automatically have it anyway.

The way I see it working, if you are editing a note and you want to capture 
the timestamp, you just highlight the existing timestamp line and hit F7.  
I haven't found that too intrusive.  It would quickly become automatic, if 
that's what you want to do.  And the command could be changed so you only 
would need to place the cursor somewhere on the timestamp line and press 
the key (F7 for me so far).

I'd like to settle on one specific name for that timestamp, though, and 
finalize it soon before I have too many nodes the other way.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-27 Thread Matt Wilkie


>
> any workflow must be forged by the user themself over a long time.
>

Yes! 

It does help to start with capable and flexible tools that don't get in the 
way too much. Though this can be challenging as what counts as capable and 
flexible for each individual is quite varied. This is why I would underline 
or otherwise emphasize "over a long time". It takes time to learn and 
refine what works for ourselves, to adapt the tool to us and us to the 
tool. 

One piece of advice I would give my younger self is that the pesonal 
knowledge management solution is process as much as tool and method and to 
allocate more attention to process.

-matt

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-27 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor


Am Donnerstag, 27. Februar 2020 15:46:04 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:

But in general you are not wrong here. Leo Editor can be used that way, 
>> even though it's not be the best for this. But it's not the worst either. 
>> It depends on how you polish it and yourself. Using Leo in a way to copy 
>> Luhmanns Zettelkasten could be done with 2-3 Simple functions. All you need 
>> is something to get the reference of node, and something to got from a link 
>> in text to the referenced node. First one is quite simple, just add an 
>> entry to the context-menu to get the leo-internal id. Second one could be 
>> achived by reusing the existing Hyperlink-Click-function and add support 
>> for links with leo:// as protocol. Then the rest is up to you to use it and 
>> fill your box.
>>
>
> Just so. That's what I have worked out in some of the posts on this 
> thread;  a small example, with working code for the three functions, is 
> attached to my Feb 25 post on the thread  "Comments re the ZettelKasten 
> work".  The idea is to have something as minimal and non-obtrusive as 
> possible, yet still be useful.
>
>
Yes, that's also a way to do it. But I was talking more about a way to 
insert links in text, and let the choose. So you can have as many links in 
a node as you want. 
After all that's some differences in Luhmanns system. But I guess this is 
not something that can be done in a @command or plugin.
But you could build a search-interface for listing multiple links in a node 
and choosing a target.

But funny that we both came up with the same colon-based-syntax for 
embedding metadata in nodes :)

BTW Using "created" instead of "timestamp" would be more self-documentating.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-27 Thread Thomas Passin



On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 9:32:08 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 23:50:11 UTC+1 schrieb andyjim:
>
> But in general you are not wrong here. Leo Editor can be used that way, 
> even though it's not be the best for this. But it's not the worst either. 
> It depends on how you polish it and yourself. Using Leo in a way to copy 
> Luhmanns Zettelkasten could be done with 2-3 Simple functions. All you need 
> is something to get the reference of node, and something to got from a link 
> in text to the referenced node. First one is quite simple, just add an 
> entry to the context-menu to get the leo-internal id. Second one could be 
> achived by reusing the existing Hyperlink-Click-function and add support 
> for links with leo:// as protocol. Then the rest is up to you to use it and 
> fill your box.
>

Just so. That's what I have worked out in some of the posts on this 
thread;  a small example, with working code for the three functions, is 
attached to my Feb 25 post on the thread  "Comments re the ZettelKasten 
work".  The idea is to have something as minimal and non-obtrusive as 
possible, yet still be useful.


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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-27 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor

Am Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 23:50:11 UTC+1 schrieb andyjim:

I must frankly admit that the only reason I am barking up the zettelkasten
> tree is that I have failed to run across a better system
>

You never played with Wikis? Or generally Hypertext?

though of course not a replica of Luhmann's.
>

Yes, that's the problem. When you won't go by the book, then focusing on
Luhmann has no real purpose anyway, for this the system is just to
simplified.
You better focus on the general area where his systems is located to find
inspirations and answers. Which would mean Wiki, Hypertext, graphs and
outliners.

Or are you specifically interessted in his addressing-system?

But in general you are not wrong here. Leo Editor can be used that way,
even though it's not be the best for this. But it's not the worst either.
It depends on how you polish it and yourself. Using Leo in a way to copy
Luhmanns Zettelkasten could be done with 2-3 Simple functions. All you need
is something to get the reference of node, and something to got from a link
in text to the referenced node. First one is quite simple, just add an
entry to the context-menu to get the leo-internal id. Second one could be
achived by reusing the existing Hyperlink-Click-function and add support
for links with leo:// as protocol. Then the rest is up to you to use it and
fill your box.

But if you really aim to make proper use of Leo for this, I would advice
you to learn at least some basic programing with leo. It's quite helpful to
be able to import/export and sanitize your data automatically. Just be
careful and make enough backups. Python is otherwise really simple to
handle. And if you are comfortable enough with it, you can add more tools
to handle your box.

you could save us quite a lot of wasted effort reinventing the wheel when
> the wheel apparently is not that good to begin with.
>

The wheel is as good as the driver using it. There is no magic software
(yet) which can solve all those problems for you. At the end it always
depends on the personal demand and abilities. Notetaking and
knowledgemanagment is so personal; everyone has different demand, different
habits and reasoning, different skills. From my experience, any workflow
must be forged by the user themself over a long time. You can collect as
many tools as you want, as long as you don't know how to wield them, they
are worthless.

Though, it's true that starting simple is usually better. So maybe that's
what people drive to Luhmanns Zettelkasten?

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-26 Thread Thomas Passin

Very relevant here are the repeated remarks in "Taking Smart Notes" - I 
have my copy now - that more important then slip-case details are how you 
take, write, and interconnect the slips.  It is that work that really makes 
all the difference.

With that in mind, I really want to start with a very simple computer 
system, one that has almost nothing to remember or get in the way.  So for 
now, I'm happy with my  outline structure, and the three keystroke commands 
I came up with.

I still am interested in using mindmaps together with the slip-case, 
though.  I just found viewer software for many of my old mind map files.  I 
used it to look at a mindmap that I used in a funding proposal over 15 
years ago, one that I had forgotten about.  In a few minutes, it all came 
back to me.  I remember the proposed project and why I was interested in 
it, and the technical approach I wanted to take.

I haven't found any suitable free software so far (I'm not that taken with 
Freemind and Freeplane, though I may not have tried them long enough).  My 
concept right now is to export a section of the zettelkasten you are 
working with to a mind map (with the links) that opens in a new Leo panel, 
and a click on an object in the mind map would take you to the Leo node for 
that object in your zettelkasten, and possibly display the note in the 
panel too.  Best of both worlds!

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:50:11 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:24:19 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Yes, for some reasons there is a cargo-cult growing around Luhmann and 
>> his knowledge-system. 
>> Which is kinda strange, as it's really not that special and we today have 
>> many better systems in use. 
>>
>
> I really appreciate your comments here. I must frankly admit that the only 
> reason I am barking up the zettelkasten tree is that I have failed to run 
> across a better system, one better suited to my usage, which will be 
> similar to, though of course not a replica of Luhmann's. If I can indeed 
> discover an existing system that does what zettelkasten does and more and 
> better, I for one will immediately abandon all interest in zettelkasten and 
> quickly become an avid user and proponent of such a system. I am looking at 
> zettelkasten only because I had despaired of finding something better.
>
> So please, if you would, point us toward at least a few of the many better 
> systems for this general type of usage that you have discovered. I do not 
> think anyone here will object to the mention of specific softwares, and you 
> could save us quite a lot of wasted effort reinventing the wheel when the 
> wheel apparently is not that good to begin with.
>
> Thanks much 
>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-26 Thread andyjim

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:24:19 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
>
>  Yes, for some reasons there is a cargo-cult growing around Luhmann and 
> his knowledge-system. 
> Which is kinda strange, as it's really not that special and we today have 
> many better systems in use. 
>

I really appreciate your comments here. I must frankly admit that the only 
reason I am barking up the zettelkasten tree is that I have failed to run 
across a better system, one better suited to my usage, which will be 
similar to, though of course not a replica of Luhmann's. If I can indeed 
discover an existing system that does what zettelkasten does and more and 
better, I for one will immediately abandon all interest in zettelkasten and 
quickly become an avid user and proponent of such a system. I am looking at 
zettelkasten only because I had despaired of finding something better.

So please, if you would, point us toward at least a few of the many better 
systems for this general type of usage that you have discovered. I do not 
think anyone here will object to the mention of specific softwares, and you 
could save us quite a lot of wasted effort reinventing the wheel when the 
wheel apparently is not that good to begin with.

Thanks much 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-26 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor


Am Dienstag, 25. Februar 2020 17:33:10 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:

All right; I've not seen the term "zettelkasten" applied to systems before 
> Luhmann's got publicised. 
>

 Well, I can't speak for the etymology of the word. It's even in germany 
not the most popular usage for this word (today) and not the usual way to 
adress those paperslip-boxes.
But the usage seems to predate the recent Luhmann-hype by several decades. 
So I guess he did not coin the word.

I've been under the impression that his particular way of indexing and 
> linking is what characterizes the term.  
>

 Yes, for some reasons there is a cargo-cult growing around Luhmann and his 
knowledge-system. 
Which is kinda strange, as it's really not that special and we today have 
many better systems in use. 
The only significant strength is the reference-system, and that only really 
works well with paperslips.

Maybe it's fueled from the ongoing active research regarding his work or 
because internet just works that way.
Before internet, people just used their tools in natural ways and didn't 
talk about the details much. 
But today people share everything and talk about anything make a cult out 
of any little detail and trick&twist. 

Details are important, they drive understanding, communication and 
research. But details you don't understand only lead down the wrong roads.

And even if I tried to do things exactly as Luhmann seems to have done 
> them, my own note collection would turn out to be very different because - 
> I'm sure - I conceptualize and link things differently from the way he did.
>

Indeed. The worth of any knowledge is not in the system generating it, but 
the work invested into building it, and the mind who did it. 
People all use the same tools, yet they all produce different results, 
because the mindsa re different, not the tools.

In a sense, Luhmann's zettelkasten was nearly the same as the World Wide 
> Web.  He had "resources" - his cards, and "links" - his index strings.  He 
> also used backlinks, which can be added to a web page but it's not so easy 
> to know how it could be done automatically, since you wouldn't want to add 
> the URL of just any page that had a hyperlink to your target.
>

 Yeah, no, partly. WWW is a hypertext-system and decentraliced. The notable 
trait of a hypertext-system are hidden references, 
meaning you have meaningful text with embedded references. Luhmann is also 
using references in text, 
but the references have no meaning for the text. And using references in 
text is quite common in science. 
The notable difference by Luhmann made is his reference-system. 

But his general concept is akin to hypertext in the sense that it's also a 
graph-system. But then I would compare it more to a Wiki. 
And classical wiki also lack embedded references, using direct 
in-text-references instead. WWW is not a knowledgebase, nor a limited 
system. 
But Wikis, and also Luhmanns Zettelkasten are limited sytems and that makes 
them useful for this usecase.

In this case, though, I'm interested in having a system that doesn't need 
> to use someone else's web server.  I wouldn't mind using my own server on 
> my own machine, but if it isn't necessary, so much the better.  
>

 A server is just a technical detail. You can run it locally, in your own 
cloud, or generate the HTML in-app without a server. 
But from a practical view, a server as a centralized single point of access 
has several advantages for tooling and handling of your data.

For my own system I also move to a server-solution as a managed layer 
around my data. Compromising with poor solutions is so painful on the long 
way.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-25 Thread Micah Joel

There is something *very* much like the Zettelkasten addressing scheme in 
Ted Nelson's Xanadu project. Tumblers.
If ZK used numbers only and not alpha, and made the scope the entire 
'docuverse' ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbler_%28Project_Xanadu%29



On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 8:33:10 AM UTC-8, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 5:55:36 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Dienstag, 25. Februar 2020 02:37:13 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:
>>
>> Note: Luhmann was the inventer of the zettelkasten.
>>>
>>
>> Ok, just for clarification: No he was not. Zettelkasten is a german word 
>> for a box (=kasten) of paperslips (=zettel). It's pretty common tool. 
>> People before Luhmann used them, people after Luhmann used them. Even his 
>> System is not really special, as most of it is just a simplified system of 
>> how librarys are organising books, Actually, libraries are pretty guilty in 
>> using Zettelkästen in very organised ways even today.
>>
>> Luhmann is famous because he was successful in using those in things in a 
>> slightly different way then other people, while being famus enough to be 
>> recognized for it, and stuborn enough to use them for a long time.
>>
>
> All right; I've not seen the term "zettelkasten" applied to systems before 
> Luhmann's got publicised.  I've been under the impression that his 
> particular way of indexing and linking is what characterizes the term.  But 
> yes, the word itself is pretty general and if we stick with a generic term 
> we might as well just say "filing system" and be done with it. 
>
> To me, I don't really care much about detailed differences in how 
> different people may have used similar systems.  I *am* interested in 
> simplicity and usefulness, and what has worked.  And even if I tried to do 
> things exactly as Luhmann seems to have done them, my own note collection 
> would turn out to be very different because - I'm sure - I conceptualize 
> and link things differently from the way he did.
>
> In a sense, Luhmann's zettelkasten was nearly the same as the World Wide 
> Web.  He had "resources" - his cards, and "links" - his index strings.  He 
> also used backlinks, which can be added to a web page but it's not so easy 
> to know how it could be done automatically, since you wouldn't want to add 
> the URL of just any page that had a hyperlink to your target.
>
> In this case, though, I'm interested in having a system that doesn't need 
> to use someone else's web server.  I wouldn't mind using my own server on 
> my own machine, but if it isn't necessary, so much the better.  
>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-25 Thread Thomas Passin

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 5:55:36 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, 25. Februar 2020 02:37:13 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:
>
> Note: Luhmann was the inventer of the zettelkasten.
>>
>
> Ok, just for clarification: No he was not. Zettelkasten is a german word 
> for a box (=kasten) of paperslips (=zettel). It's pretty common tool. 
> People before Luhmann used them, people after Luhmann used them. Even his 
> System is not really special, as most of it is just a simplified system of 
> how librarys are organising books, Actually, libraries are pretty guilty in 
> using Zettelkästen in very organised ways even today.
>
> Luhmann is famous because he was successful in using those in things in a 
> slightly different way then other people, while being famus enough to be 
> recognized for it, and stuborn enough to use them for a long time.
>

All right; I've not seen the term "zettelkasten" applied to systems before 
Luhmann's got publicised.  I've been under the impression that his 
particular way of indexing and linking is what characterizes the term.  But 
yes, the word itself is pretty general and if we stick with a generic term 
we might as well just say "filing system" and be done with it. 

To me, I don't really care much about detailed differences in how different 
people may have used similar systems.  I *am* interested in simplicity and 
usefulness, and what has worked.  And even if I tried to do things exactly 
as Luhmann seems to have done them, my own note collection would turn out 
to be very different because - I'm sure - I conceptualize and link things 
differently from the way he did.

In a sense, Luhmann's zettelkasten was nearly the same as the World Wide 
Web.  He had "resources" - his cards, and "links" - his index strings.  He 
also used backlinks, which can be added to a web page but it's not so easy 
to know how it could be done automatically, since you wouldn't want to add 
the URL of just any page that had a hyperlink to your target.

In this case, though, I'm interested in having a system that doesn't need 
to use someone else's web server.  I wouldn't mind using my own server on 
my own machine, but if it isn't necessary, so much the better.  

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-25 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor



Am Dienstag, 25. Februar 2020 02:37:13 UTC+1 schrieb Thomas Passin:

Note: Luhmann was the inventer of the zettelkasten.
>

Ok, just for clarification: No he was not. Zettelkasten is a german word 
for a box (=kasten) of paperslips (=zettel). It's pretty common tool. 
People before Luhmann used them, people after Luhmann used them. Even his 
System is not really special, as most of it is just a simplified system of 
how librarys are organising books, Actually, libraries are pretty guilty in 
using Zettelkästen in very organised ways even today.

Luhmann is famous because he was successful in using those in things in a 
slightly different way then other people, while being famus enough to be 
recognized for it, and stuborn enough to use them for a long time.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-25 Thread 'Marcel Franke' via leo-editor


Am Montag, 24. Februar 2020 20:28:05 UTC+1 schrieb andyjim:
 

> I'm still wondering exactly how Luhmann's indexing played out.  
>

 He used manual maintained index-cards of keywords. Just big lists of 
keywords with reference-numbers which he used a startingpoint to dig into a 
topic. You can look it up in the Luhmann-Archive, where they scanned his 
whole papers & boxes and work now on digitizing the text.

With 90k zettels it must have been efficient and effective indeed, for him 
> to use the system so productively. 
>

 You overhype Luhmann. That guy was famous because he was maintaining his 
system decades before personal computers and modern organisation-methods 
were a thing. By todays standard his system is not so special. It's 
basically just a web-forum on paper.

Seems like there's a whole layer (maybe more than one layer) of his system 
> that we don't know enough about.  It seems like we might need to innovate 
> something here.
>
 
That Layer is Luhmann himself. He didn't bother with system and details, 
but found something that worked for him and invested most of his life on 
filling it. There is no big secret behind his knowledgebase, it's just 
stupid manual labor over a long period of time. For most people this does 
not work, becuase they are busy with optimizing every single detail, 
building big complex buildings which they can't maintain anymore at some 
point, instead of just doing the simple things they original aimed for.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

Wondering what Luhmann's original zettel cards looked like?  This page has 
a photo of one -

https://emvi.com/blog/luhmanns-zettelkasten-a-productivity-tool-that-works-like-your-brain-N9Gd2G4aPv

Notice that he wrote the links in a different color.  The card seems to be 
mostly a collection of links, with only a bit of writing.

Note: Luhmann was the inventer of the zettelkasten.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.


On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 11:05:32 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>> Granted, you can't easily get a listing of all the tags - until we have a 
>> zettelkasten plugin that can create one - but you could maintain a zettel 
>> that only contains the tag names. It would be almost as good.
>>
>
> We do need some sort of indexing or search method list for tags and other 
> handles. I'm still wondering exactly how Luhmann's indexing played out.  
> With 90k zettels it must have been efficient and effective indeed, for him 
> to use the system so productively. 
>

I can't emphasize enough how really useful the Nav tab is for searching.  
And its display separates out node headlines hits from body hits.  It's 
also very fast, even with a very large Leo file. So if we used the 
following for tags:

:tag: some cool tag

Then we could just search for "g: some cool"  and we'd get all the matches. 
Clicking on one takes you right to that node.
 

> Seems like there's a whole layer (maybe more than one layer) of his system 
> that we don't know enough about.  It seems like we might need to innovate 
> something here.
>

I gather that he used a overall index to the top level headings, and (I 
think) a separate set of slips for citations.
 

> I am unsure, though, whether to allow more than one link per line.  One 
>> link per line would be easier to write the code for, yet more than one 
>> would be easier to author and would reduce the visual clutter.
>>
>
> Personally I very much favor one link per line.
>

I now definitely like one link per line, and the commandsI included with 
the sample zettelkasten  rely on that.
 

> One of the types of links I'm very interested in is what I've called 
> 'pointers', which is a poor term for what I mean. In addition to links to 
> related zettels the notion of questions or germs of ideas for further 
> thought is, I think, exceedingly creativity inducing.  The example in the 
> format we saw I-forget-where appealed to me. The ideas/questions for 
> further work followed after the body text (because the ideas were 
> stimulated by the content of the text) and they would automatically create 
> new zettels, which in turn could be indexed somehow so that, in a spare 
> moment we can be stimulated by 'ideas to pursue'. The term 'pointers' came 
> to mind meaning 'this points to another path to be investigated', but I'm 
> sure there's a better term. In other uses of the system (besides notes), 
> there could be other uses for such links; further work needing done on this 
> part of a project, memos/comments... 
>

Here's one way.  Create a new node for the idea-in-progress.  Refer to it 
this way:

.. note:: This is a simple **note** box.
.. link: TomP.20200221124629.1 Zettels

It will format when rendered as a nice looking note box, and it would be 
easy to write a command to find the reference and go to it.  It wouldn't be 
much harder to have the command create the new node if it didn't exist.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.



On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:41:47 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 9:38:53 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>>
>> I decided to have the link meta-lines have optional labels, because they 
>> help you know which links goes where. In the older paper-based system, 
>> identifiers generally looked like [...]
>>
>> Using an optional label seems better.
>>
>
> Very much agreed. It's hard to imagine a situation where we wouldn't want 
> a literate label with any link, though there might be such a case.  
> Should/could the literate label precede the UID in the line, for prominance?
>

My current code has the link id preceding its label.  That's convenient for 
coding, and I think it looks well, too. Here's an example:

:link: TomP.20200221124629.1 Zettels

Having the label at the end makes it stand out more, at least to me, 
compared with having it embedded in the middle.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-24 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM Thomas Passin  wrote:

>
>
> Is TM4J your bookmark manager?  Is there a web link?
>>
>
> Yes, that's right. There's only a link to an obsolete version that I
> wouldn't recommend.  I have to do some work on it to package it up so other
> people can use it.  For example, it uses batch files that use absolute
> paths, and the python parts of the codes are for v2.1 or maybe earlier.
> It's a unix-like mix of batch files in a processing pipeline that uses
> batch, python, and xslt templates playing together.  We didn't have JSON
> back when I developed it (2003 - 2004), so there is an xslt template that
> actually is a code generator that outputs javascript code to build the data
> structures in the browser.  Awkward, but in return I didn't have to invent
> a syntax and an in-browser parser for it.  I'm sure it would have been
> easier to debug the code generator than to debug a parser.
>
> I should work up the changes and packaging .. but not until I finish VR3!
>

:-) Thanks for the clarifications.

Edward

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-24 Thread andyjim

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 11:05:32 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> Granted, you can't easily get a listing of all the tags - until we have a 
> zettelkasten plugin that can create one - but you could maintain a zettel 
> that only contains the tag names. It would be almost as good.
>

I'm still wondering exactly how Luhmann's indexing played out.  With 90k 
zettels it must have been efficient and effective indeed, for him to use 
the system so productively.  Seems like there's a whole layer (maybe more 
than one layer) of his system that we don't know enough about.  It seems 
like we might need to innovate something here.

> I am unsure, though, whether to allow more than one link per line.  One 
> link per line would be easier to write the code for, yet more than one 
> would be easier to author and would reduce the visual clutter.
>

Personally I very much favor one link per line.

One of the types of links I'm very interested in is what I've called 
'pointers', which is a poor term for what I mean. In addition to links to 
related zettels the notion of questions or germs of ideas for further 
thought is, I think, exceedingly creativity inducing.  The example in the 
format we saw I-forget-where appealed to me. The ideas/questions for 
further work followed after the body text (because the ideas were 
stimulated by the content of the text) and they would automatically create 
new zettels, which in turn could be indexed somehow so that, in a spare 
moment we can be stimulated by 'ideas to pursue'. The term 'pointers' came 
to mind meaning 'this points to another path to be investigated', but I'm 
sure there's a better term. In other uses of the system (besides notes), 
there could be other uses for such links; further work needing done on this 
part of a project, memo to self regarding a birthday, a book I'm interested 
in... 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-24 Thread andyjim


On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 9:38:53 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:

>
> I decided to have the link meta-lines have optional labels, because they 
> help you know which links goes where. In the older paper-based system, 
> identifiers generally looked like [...]
>
> Using an optional label seems better.
>

Very much agreed. It's hard to imagine a situation where we wouldn't want a 
literate label with any link, though there might be such a case.  
Should/could the literate label precede the UID in the line, for prominance?

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

2020-02-24 Thread andyjim

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>>
>> Excellent. Working code (or in this case, a working outline), is worth 
>> gazillions of words and requirements :-) Much easier to understand.
>>
>
> Often, yes, but a good set of requirements can help you to keep your eye 
> on the ball so you end up with what you intend.  Of course, if you don't 
> know that, then no requirements can help you! 
>

I suspect *my* overly long posts and attachment files`stirred the mild 
consternation over "gazillions of words" moreso than yours, Thomas.  And 
indeed, this process has helped me a lot to sharpen up my concepts.  When 
the time comes for me to bring up more of my wish list I will seek to be 
more concise about it. I reckon I have hitherto felt I need to justify and 
sell my ideas, not just define them. Perhaps I don't need to do that, or 
maybe just learn to do it concisely.  

I still think Leo and Zettelkasten are a natural fit, and that Leo can 
significantly enhance the functionalities and value of Zettelkasten.  Thank 
you kindly, Edward, for supporting the project.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

Here is the code for the command that I mentioned before, to go to a node 
and insert a backlink in the target node.  I put this code into an @setting 
node with the headline:

@command zettel-goto-node @key=Alt+F6

The @setting node goes into the myLeoSettings.leo file.

This code could use a bit more work.  The main thing is that it may reorder 
the metadata lines in a zettel node.  This does not change any behavior, 
but I like to have those lines in a particular order.  I like them to start 
with the node id, then a timestamp, like this:

:id: TomP.20200221124629.1
:timestamp: 02/22/2020 08:24:58
:link: TomP.20200221221759.1 TM4J
:link: TomP.20200223153257.1 

The order may get changed when the code inserts a new backlink in the 
target node because one did not exist before.

I decided to have the link meta-lines have optional labels, because they 
help you know which links goes where. In the older paper-based system, 
identifiers generally looked like this (from 
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NfdHG6oHBJ8Qxc26s/the-zettelkasten-method-1
):

"I might have a train of thought which goes across cards 11, 11a, 11b, 
11b1, 11b1a, 11b1a1, 18, 18a…"

All well and good, but a few months later, if you see "11b1a1" in a link, 
you probably won't know what it goes to.  You would have to fish around 
trying all the link references in your zettel to see which ones you might 
be interested it.

Using an optional label seems better.

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# Get gnx (node id) of target node from the ":link:" line of this node,
# insert a backlink to this node in the target if the target does not have one,
# and jump to the target node.
# Does nothing if cursor is not on a line starting with ":link:".

# If the backlink exists on the target node, but it has no label, then
# add a label.  The :link: specifier line is expected to look like this:
# :link: TomP.20200223153257.1 About Leo
# The "About Leo" part is the label.  If a label on the backlink exists,
# it is not changed, but if the link has no label, then one is constructed
# from the headline of the node.

def get_gnx_from_link(line):
line = line.lstrip()
is_link_line = line.startswith(':link:')

gnx = ''
label = ''
if is_link_line:
splits = line.split(':link:')
if len(splits) > 1:
fields = splits[1].split()
gnx = fields[0]
label = ' '.join(fields[1:]) if len(fields) > 1 else ''

return gnx, label

# List of line(s) containing cursor or selection
cursor_lines = c.getBodyLines()[1]

line = cursor_lines[0] if cursor_lines else ''
line = line.lstrip()

gnx, sending_label = get_gnx_from_link(line)

if gnx:
start_gnx = p.gnx
node_label = p.h
if node_label.startswith('@'):
node_label = ' '.join(node_label.split()[1:])
start_link = f':link: {start_gnx}'
start_link_label = f'{start_link} {node_label}'

_found_target = False
for _p in c.all_unique_positions():
if _p.gnx == gnx:
c.selectPosition(_p)
_found_target = True
break

if _found_target:
lines = _p.b.split('\n')

# Three cases for backlinks to sending node:
# 1. Sending node has no backlink
# 2. Sending node has backlink, but the backlink has no label
# 3. Sending node has backlink with label.
got_start_link = False
for i, line in enumerate(lines):
line = line.lstrip()
if not line.startswith(':link:'): continue
if start_link in line:
got_start_link = True
# case 2
if start_link == line:
lines[i] = start_link_label
_p.b = '\n'.join(lines)
else:
# Case 3
pass
break

if not got_start_link:
# case 1
_p.b = f'{start_link_label}\n{_p.b}'

Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.



On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> Excellent. Working code (or in this case, a working outline), is worth 
> gazillions of words and requirements :-) Much easier to understand.
>

Often, yes, but a good set of requirements can help you to keep your eye on 
the ball so you end up with what you intend.  Of course, if you don't know 
that, then no requirements can help you! 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.