Re: Dissertations / Denis MacEoin.
In a message dated 3/17/2004 7:52:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, for a short period recently, he had a highly critical website which I happened to come across while looking for Douglas Martin's thesis. I believe that in scanning Juan's material I saw that exact accusation. I'm sure he made such an accusation. Not everything Juan says is false. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
In a message dated 3/21/2004 8:44:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As to the Bab's use of the term - I understand this to be word play, not interpretation. Dear Don, And what do you do about Ali's use of the term? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/4/2004 2:43:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am under the impression that Nabil is to be given special consideration as a source Dear Dean, Not so much as a 'source' but as a sacred narrative. At least that is the way I look at it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 8:03:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If there were some theological reasons, then that needs to be demonstrated. So far, I don't know of any such reason. What aspect of the Dawn-breakers is theological to you? It simply portrays the Babi Faith as a precursor to Baha'u'llah's appearance, but that line of argument was available in lots of other places, such as A Traveler's Narrative. Dear Ahang, If that was all there was to it, then Traveler's Narrative should have been enough. But besides length I think there is a different agenda involved. Abdu'l-Baha seems mostly concerned to vindicate the Babi-Bahai Faiths in relationship to the government. But Nabil goes out of his way to make the Bab appear as Christlike as possible. The Farewell Sermon to the Letters of the Living is virtually identical to the one Jesus gave when He sent out the seventy. Likewise, the sky darkens at the Bab's martyrdom just as it is said to have done during the crucifixtion (and as you know there is no other account which substantiates this.) This made Dawnbreakers an ideal book to present the Bab to Western believers. I think the main reason that Shoghi Effendi translated an edited version of Nabil's Narrative was to remove the effect of E.G. Browne as the main Babi/Baha'i storyteller. That is, if anyone wanted to know the history of the Babis, they had to read something by Browne, who had an agenda of his own and didn't believe in the Babis being the proto-Baha'is, and worried about Azal's role, etc. He could have solved that problem merely by retranslating Traveler's Narrative. That's what he did when Ahmad Sohrab translated Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. So the easiest thing to do was to provide the Baha'i community with an elegantly translated narrative of the Babis (which effectively countered everything that Browne had published), which continued the line of thinking in A Traveler's Narrative, and declare that "the unchallengeable" history. And you don't think that Shoghi Effendi referring to Nabil's Narrative that way gives it any "special significance"? You might argue the Guardian had reasons for doing this but you can hardly say he didn't do it! To my knowledge, Prof Banani has not had the opportunity to examine the original of Nabil's, or engage in critical text analysis that Kavian Milani or I are doing. You have access to the original Nabil's narrative? I suspect what Prof Banani offered was an educated guess, but since the time you heard him speak those words, which must have been some years ago, Not many. Three or four. we've done lot more analysis through Nabil's own text And where are these copies of Nabil's text you are working with? and through proxies, such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq. All of these were discussed in my Nayriz article. You should really read it some time ;-} Did you add more material to it? I haven't gone through a lot of the postings on Tarikh because that looked to be repeats of what you had posted earlier on Bridges. Academics has nothing to do with it. Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's mouth. My understanding is he slashed rather than added. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 9:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his infallibility? I thought he claimed to be infallible only in matters related to the Faith. To me, this would include the Faith's history. He claimed to be infallible in matters related to the *protection* of the Faith. Are these really protection issues? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
In a message dated 4/5/2004 11:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the revealed word. Dear Dean, Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that would apply to a book like the Dawnbreakers. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
In a message dated 5/11/2004 8:52:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I never have considered teleportation to be an issue. The simple shock of facing death, hearing the crash of the muskets and suddenly dropping to the ground as the rope was cut would have been incapacitating for anyone. That the Bab was able to keep his composure, walk calmly to his cell to finsih His covernsation is indicative enough of the miraculous nature of the event. It might be interesting to consider the Muslim take on this incident. They said that if only the Bab had been able to keep his composure He could have stood before the crowd and proclaimed Himself the Mahdi and no one would have denied Him. But in His confusion He ended up running back to the barracks where He had been imprisoned and hid there until they dragged him back out. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what was on the Bab's mind
In a message dated 5/12/2004 3:58:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: actually i think we understnad pretty well what was on the Bab's mind, and it is found in the Molsem denial. He told some people who wanted to execute Him that He had a conversation to finish, they said, no. He said whatever. and then He went with them, and then He went and finished His conversation. if He had stood there and proclaijed Himself the Mahdi, they woulda naled Him anyway, and said later, if only He had gone bacvk to His cell and finmished Hios conversation. we would all beleive. fear of death? no way. Uh, except that conversation was with a Christian, not a Muslim. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Martyrdom of the Bab
In a message dated 5/12/2004 7:41:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Another question springs to mind on this topic: why did the miracle have to happen in the first place? If miracles are no proof of Prophethood, what was the point of it all? Dear David, We don't even know for sure it was a miracle. Remember, the regiment in question had no wish to kill the Bab. As a historian I don't really ask whether or not a miracle occurred. I tend to ask 'why is this story being told?' In the case of the Dawnbreakers the function of the story is to illustrate that the Manifestation was finally the Master of His own fate and that any sacrifice He made was done voluntarily. Keep in mind that most Muslims believe that God would never allow a prophet to be killed. That's one of the reasons they deny the crucifixtion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: KJV quotes
In a message dated 5/10/2004 8:39:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I remember some time ago saying something about 'Abdu'l-Baha using the KJV, and then being corrected by someone. But now that I think about that, this leads me to ask: why is the KJV quoted extensively throughout SAQ? Did 'Abdu'l-Baha just so happen to say what in Persian what would translate to exact KJV verses, or did the translators ignore what He actually said and just include quotes from the KJV? Dear David, I expect they just assumed that was the correct way to translate it. When the Iqan quotes the Bible it is exactly the same as the KJV. Did Baha'u'llah, in Persian, quote the Bible exactly as it would translate as in the English KJV? No, the Guardian made that decision. If so, it would appear to make the KJV the 'Baha'i Bible,' though Shoghi Effendi said it wasn't. Then it doesn't. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Afterlife
In a message dated 5/23/2004 11:13:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do any of the Baha'i Writings suggest that the afterlife might be limited to believers? Dear Dean, There are passages which could conceivably be interpreted that way, but I don't. Check out what Gleanings has to say. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Afterlife
In a message dated 5/23/2004 11:25:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are passages which could conceivably be interpreted that way, but I don't. Check out what Gleanings has to say. Do you mean you don't interpret them that way? No, I don't interpret those passages that way. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tutor Pole
In a message dated 5/24/2004 10:45:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Clarification, please, from some of you knowledgeable historians.I read Tutor Pole's story. I have also seen several letter from the Guardian to, I think, "W. T. Pole". Are these the same people. If I recall correctly, and I will not assert certainty here, the Guardian's letters seemed to be written to someone who was a Baha'i. Any more info on this fellow? Dear James, In those days there were no formal enrollment proceedures, nor was it clear what a person needed to believe to be considered a Baha'i. My understanding is that Tudor Pole was initially regarded as a Baha'i. In fact he was one of the believers whom Shoghi Effendi consulted with immediately after the passing of Abdu'l-Baha to consider the feasibility of immediately electing the Universal House of Justice. He was also the person through whom most communications from the Holy Land were conveyed to the British Baha'is. My impression is that as time went on, it became increasingly apparent how disparate Major Tudor's own beliefs were from that of the Baha'i Teachings and I think he and the Baha'i community parted company amicably. I suspect that it was Shoghi Effendi's interaction with prominent 'western believers' like Tudor Pole that helped persuad him it was not time to elect the Universal House of Justice. ;-} warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: People of capacity
In a message dated 6/1/2004 11:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. I should have written "a" reason; tho' when I first heard this story, it was given as "the" reason. Dear Don, I think that is the way Taherzadeh depicts it as he wants to focus on Sohrab Ahmad and Avarih who defected shortly thereafter. He insists they wanted to be elected to the House but he doesn't present any real evidence for that presumption. If you run down the list of those Shoghi Effendi consulted with prior to making his decision (the list can be found in Priceless Pearl) one realizes just how poor the quality of Baha'is we had at this time! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
In a message dated 6/11/2004 6:00:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But it escapes this mind how one whose station is as great as that of Quddus could think of himself as a Manifestation. 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian, for example, were quick to discount being thought of as a Manifestation. Why would someone as exalted as Quddus think that he is a Manifestation? Dear James, That is because between the time of Quddus and the time of Abdu'l-Baha the meaning of Manifestation appears to have shifted. I've been looking for the data to document this. The Iqan appears to reflect the older understanding. I think the shift occurs in Baha'u'llah's own lifetime, but it may not have happened until Abdu'l-Baha had to defend Himself against Muhammad Ali's charges. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of religion
In a message dated 6/15/2004 3:31:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'If thy Lord had willed, whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together. Wouldst thou then constrain the people until they are believers?' (Sura 10:99) I am wondering what the Muslim clergy point of view is on the interpretation of this verse. Is this an accurate translation from the Arabic? This verse seems to imply freedom of religion. Dear Larry, The verse "Let there be no compulsion in religion" does as much as well but I have heard some Muslims argue that this verse was abrogated once the umma was formed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Scholarship and Learning in a Far-from-Equilibrium State
In a message dated 7/20/2004 7:27:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: can't find Steven's version of "Abdu'l-Baha's reasons anywhere. Of course they may be his understanding of 'Abdu'l-Baha's comments, but he actually attributed them to the Master. Dear David, The nice thing about oral traditions is that kam, kam they are subject to endless revision. I rather like Birkland's creative retelling myself. ;-} In some ways the fact that these texts were subjected to a little tweaking to make these particular points indicates to me the level of committment to these ideas themselves. Sometimes Baha'is repeat things in the Writings simply because they are in the Writings, not because they have any conviction for principle itself. We've all known Baha'is who play lip-service to things like the independent investigation of truth, for instance, so long as it applies to non-Baha'is only. But when a Counsellor goes out of his way to underline the importance of scholars raising the difficult questions, even to the extent of tweaking a source to make his point, it indicates to me that there is some real committment to the principle. But then part of asking the hard questions is we get to get to dissect and pick his talk part. ;-} In any case, I think this talk contains a number of things that Baha'i scholars have been waiting a long, long time to hear. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflection
In a message dated 8/17/2004 5:42:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On the contrary, they have always excelled all other peoples in endowments conferred by birth. Dear Hasan, I'd call it hyperbole. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflections re:hyperbole
In a message dated 8/20/2004 9:00:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can you give me a source for the Universal House of Justice comment on "hyperbole" ? "we must accept that they are realities that cannot be defined in a rigourous manner, as one would attempt to define the terms of mathematics or even of philosophy. This is a realm of knowledge in which poetry, analogy, hyperbole and paradox are to be expected; a realm in which the Manifestations themselves speak with many voices" (From a letter on behalf of the Universal House of Justice, dated 15 October 1992). __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Peace breaks out
Dear friends, You might find this URL interesting: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=515u=/ap/20040829/ap_on_re_af/war_and_peace_1printer=1 warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I'm Back!
In a message dated 9/19/2004 1:41:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So I just wanted to try and see if my email gets posted and also say hello again. Welcome back, Jilla! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Grounds for divorce
In a message dated 9/22/04 4:18:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If one should not feel antipathy towards another, however, why should antipathy be valid grounds for divorce? Dear David, Clearly, you have never been married. ;-} But the word here is 'aversion' as I recall. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cohabitation question
In a message dated 10/30/2004 10:54:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have a cousin who is at a university, in a co-ed dorm situation (men and women on the same floor); she and her current roommate would like to move out of their dorm and into an apartment with a male friend (who happens to be homosexual - this may or may not be relevant). Her parents have been bent out of shape, not because this male is homosexual, but because she is considering 'cohabitating,' and believe that she would be violating Baha'i law if she moved into this living situation. Dear Ben, Back in the seventies I know our NSA was adamant that we should not live with same-sex roomates even if there was nothing going on sexually. However, I'm under the impression things have lightened up sense then. In any case I think the fact that Baha'u'llah allows a maid to live in a man's household without being married could be presented as justification for sharing houses with roomates of both sexes. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Hereafter Business : Modern Day Witchcraft or Everlasting Life?
Each claim that there is a personal God, who created the universe and man, and if man participates in the sacraments of their religion, he will achieve everlasting life. Dear Steve, I'm afraid this person is poorly informed as to the tenets of these religions. Only Christianity has sacraments. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation
In a message dated 11/21/2004 2:26:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a line somewhere in Aqdas or elsewhere that says after the Recognition one should serve those that believe? Not to my knowledge. Obedience to the Laws comes after recognition, not obedience to others. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Reading Paul through the eyes of Augustine and Luther
In a message dated 11/20/2004 3:54:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could you please explain, in layman's terms, what it means to read Paul through the eyes of Augustine and Luther? Augustine and Luther were very fixated with the issue of their personal sinfullness. This is what Stendahl calls the "Western Introspection" which encourages the believer to concentrate on their own utter sinfulness in contrast to God's grace. Paul is often thought to have the same introspection as reflected in the verse "that which I do not will, that thing I do, wretched man that I am." The assumption is that Paul's emphasis on Grace vs. the Law is based upon Paul's own inability as a pharisee to live up to the obligations of the Law. Stendahl argues that this is a misreading, that Paul'stheology didn't grow out of a sensitive conscience so much as a desire to make Christianity more inclusive for gentiles. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation
In a message dated 11/24/2004 2:58:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Explain to me the nuances of "serve" as compared to "encourage, support". I always understood service as a baha'i as to help/assist an endeavor. This ,of course, IMO, can take a lot of different forms including physically serving, financially aiding, morally supporting, etc. Is this correct or am I misinterpreting the word? Dear Fairborz, Usually it denotes aiding in a suppordinate capacity. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation
In a message dated 11/24/2004 6:44:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It was something to the effect that if someone (i.e.another believer) asked a Baha'i to do a service for the cause if is as ifBaha'u'llah (or maybe it was 'Abdul-Baha) Himself asked them to do it. Doesanyone know where I might find that quote? Dear Patti, I think you may have in mind the Hidden Word which says if any of His servants asks *anything* of us(not just service to the Cause) we should regard their face as His Face. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
In a message dated 11/28/2004 10:17:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The significance of WS's edict was that it allowed Jews to return to the Holy Land, rather than just practise their faith. Are you saying that the reply from the public record office to the "researcher" (?Sours) referred to an edict which did not state this? Dear Sam, So far as I know the edict had more to do with the toleration of Christians than Jews. I don't think the 'right to return' is even mentioned. Jews were not prohibited from immigrating to Palestine in the first place. I found this posting in our archives which should give you some of the details you are looking for: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m30461.html warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Edict of toleration
In a message dated 11/28/2004 10:45:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He states in TITN that he secured and studied copies of original documents and letters. Did he actually say he made *this* bit up? Dear Sam, He doesn't say he read the original edict itself, though I agree it is implied. Here is what he wrote: ""I was able to secure and study copies of the original letters and documents which led to the signing of the so-called Edict of Toleration in 1844." I think those documents were all part of the Adventist literature . warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: To Brent: one point
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:19:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As a Canadian, I cannot say that I have ever experienced the situationdepicted in the cartoon. The ABM's that I have met have been quite vocal intheir encouragement to study other materials, in addition to enjoining thefriends to participate in the Ruhi Institute Process. Dear Jeanne, I was thinking more in terms of organized deepenings rather than individual study which yes, would be encouraged all over. And I don't know that Canada has discouraged any of these. The cases I know of are more in the South Pacific. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: To Brent: one point
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:31:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think tutor is "true believer" just because is a "tutor", I think we can't or "must" say when one baha'i is *true* or *not true* believer. Hasan Dear Hasan, We've got a linguistic-cultural misunderstanding here.I'm using the term 'true believer' somewhat sardonically. There is a well-known book in English entitled *The True Believer* which describes the psychological make-up of those who feel compelled to lose their individuality in mass movements. In this case, I meant a 'true believer' in Ruhi, not the Faith. But I really didn't meanto imply that Ruhi tutors were mindless followers either, only that if they weren't alreadypersuaded of the strengths of this program they wouldn't be doing it, so analyzing their personal perceptions would only tell us why Ruhi works for Ruhi tutors. It wouldn't be an objective analysis of the program itself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:35:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thus, for example, after reading thequotation, The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pureand goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct, the student isasked, "How can the betterment of the world be accomplished?" At firstglance, this type of question may appear too simple. But, before reachingsuch a conclusion, one should examine the following two observations: Often,the tutor will divide the study group into pairs; one person in each pair isasked to read the quotation aloud, and the other is asked to formulate aquestion, the answer of which would be the quotation. This task ofconstructing a question from a sentence does not turn out to be as simple asit appears. The majority of participants need numerous exercises in order toacquire this apparently simple skill. Dear Max, I did find, much to my surprise, that this was true of the majority of the participants in my own study circle. Even though most of the participants had college degrees, they just couldn't 'get' this part which seemed obvious to me from the start. I realized at that point I was vastly overestimating the ability of most Baha'is to read a text. My son made that point as well when he voiced his disagreement with me over Ruhi. "Mom," he says, "the Writings are hard to read." I was surprised because Neil had been reading these texts fluently in Feast since he was eight. It never occurred to me that he might not be understanding them. "It is quite likely that by first developing inbelievers who are in the early stages of their study of the Faith a capacityto focus attention on the immediate and explicit meaning of sentences theyread from the Holy Writings, we will be contributing to the achievement ofunity of thought in our communities" I guess the question is will that 'unity of thought' not then be a literalistic one? And is that really what our Writings encourage? warmest, Susan b.n+Zbzrzf+r &iZGj)mf%ymZxm+- ymzm)y %+- yjJ"Va^~efjbqgibqi
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:40:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The experience of the Ruhi Institute has shown that we do not suppress the imagination or the personality of the participants How have they determined they aren't doing this? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Participation, Political Manipulation
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:45:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Ruhi Institute, following the ideas presented in the previousparagraphs, asserts that effective participation which will not easilydegenerate into political manipulation requires a systematic learningprocess within each community and region so that the community itselfexperiments with new ideas, new methods, and new technologies andprocedures, rather than being the object of the social experimentation ofothers. I would have thought of Ruhi as a type of social experimentation by others. It is not like each community came up with it on its own. What do you think this means, Max? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Transitory Motivation, An Example
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:48:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would like to invite you to join a study circle we have recentlyestablished in our community. There are already twelve people in our group,and I am sure you will like every one of them. We have a great deal of funtogether. We study twice a week for a couple of hours but also engage inother activities. This Saturday, for example, we will have a picnic, towhich you are most welcome, and some of us are thinking of forming afootball team. Uh, the point of this passage is? Max, I'm not sure it is real helpful to put these up without any comment of your own. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Not Possible when Tutor is Arrogant
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:08:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why you put too messages against Ruhi program? Huh? Other than that cartoon, Max has been posting nothing but quotations from Ruhi materials. The functions of the tutor are clearand the program is quite good to face the actual problems. If the Ruhi is so bad as you try to say (with you several messages), I don't think the Bah World adopted it. Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the semi-literate as I have suggested? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Not Possible when Tutor is Arrogant
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:22:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the semi-literate as I have suggested? Yes, when weapply it, not when we don't. Dear Hasan, I'm not sure that answers my question. If there is resistance to applying it, isn't that a sign that it isn't working for some people? For instance in the US most of us have a built-in revulsion to rote-learning, henceour resistance. Might that signify that a different approach might be more appropriate to our population? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: To Brent: one point
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:52:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Too much discussions about the Ruhi Program in this forum, now the Ruhi Program is a real and efficient way to grow, it is not perfect (nothing is) but it help the Faith to grow better than before. Well, there's the rub Hasan. Here in the US our enrollment rates have been steadily decreasing as Ruhi is being implemented. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Dear Mark, This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity: "The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed" That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is being "on the same page" even about the Covenant. I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase doesn't even occur there. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/10/04 8:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 Does this apply to the Quran as well? For those of you who don't know Gilberto, he is a Muslim who I invited onto this list. In answer to your question, Gilberto, yes, I think the meanings of any true scripture cannot be exhausted. But I don't think any scripture, including Baha'i scripture, is exhaustive. That's why we have progressive revelation. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:45:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that many are willing to take what the editors say at face value. Well, that certainly happens, and at times tutors encourage it. When one participant noted that no source was given to support the assertion that the Writings said something or other, the tutor insisted it must be right because the House of Justice had approved of these materials. Similarly, when I suggested to a Board Member that Ruhi be revised by removing pilgrim's notes and not asking close-ended questions that expected the reader to parrot back editorial opinions (as opposed to scriptural texts) I was told that the World Centre found the material fine as it was and that therefore we shouldn't mess with it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
In a message dated 12/11/2004 12:30:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I am honst, I have this same issue. The sufferigof Jesus on the cross is a powerful story. Try as I might, I can not see Baha'u'llah's imprisonment for decades as equivalent. It just isnt' the same kind of powerful imagery. Dear Ron, I'm not so sure. Remember that the African slave experience is that of a lifetime of suffering, not a few hours on the cross. That is closer to Baha'u'llah's suffering. If the imagery of the cross is more powerful in Christianity it is because Christians themselves have made it such. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/11/2004 10:45:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where are you getting that from? For gosh sakes, Gilberto. Have you never seen the fatwas to the effect that women should not be in positions of political authority because political leaders engage in war, and women aren't supposed to do this? Can a woman be the Caliph? There was a female Ayatullah at the time of the Iranian revolution. But she could do ijtihad only on her own behalf, no own could follow her. "Women can certainly be judges in the Hanafi madhab which is thelargest and the oldest of the four traditional sunni schools." Qazis and muftis are different things. Name some female muftis for me and cite the fetwas they issued which others followed. "And historically Aishah led troops" Yes, against the Iman and Caliph Ali! Not the most Islamic act she ever did. Yes, I believe the Qur'an is the Word of God and yes I believe God is merciful and just. But no, it does not follow that one can apply everything the Qur'an says about women in this day and be treating them either justly or mercifully. A doctor may well prescribe a medicine for one patient at one time which will be poison to him at another. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ether and Evolution and Infallibility
In a message dated 12/11/2004 12:04:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Second, there is a discussion about radiocarbon dating, which is our best method for dating fossils less than 30,000 years old. Let's go back in time to 1912. At Piltdown near Sussex a skull had been found in a gravel pit that had a modern braincase and orangutan jaw. Dear Fairborz, What date is this article? Yes, there was a fraud perpetrated once which put together a modern skull withjaw of another ape species, but I'm not sure what that proves. Nor would such a finding necessarily constitute a 'missing link'. I'm not even sure what a missing link would mean. We don't so much speakof a 'link' between man and apes today as we consider hominids a part of the ape family. People don't descend from other apes, but the share a common ancestor with chimps and gorillas principally. Orangutans are much more distant. Such an ancestor would be much more primitive than either modern humans or great apes, and thus not of much interest. What is more interesting is thefossil record of early hominids (apes who walkedupright) of which we find the Australopithecus with the brain the size of an orange. This dates from about 4 million years ago, though the date keeps being pushed back. There are about 1000 skeleton remains of this species the most famous being Lucy. They give us a fairly complete record of evolution into homo habilis, the hominid who first used tools. That dates from about 2 mya, though some recent evidence may suggest it goes back much earlier as well. There again we have enough fossil records to observe its evolution into homo erectus who was of modern stature, intelligent enough to master fire and speech, but whose brain was about 2/3 the size of our own. This is the species that travels throughout Afrasia. Which of these would be the missing link? Or do you have something else in mind? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/11/2004 3:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Really!?!? I don't understand? What is the appeal? Besides, I've evenheard from some followers of Thelema that in some ways the movementhas already been "corrupted" to Crowleanity. Mark was into the occult before he became a Baha'i. But I don't see the attraction myself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Unity of Thought
In a message dated 12/10/04 6:14:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is now that unity of thought and action is most needed. It is now, when the Cause is entering a new phase of development, when its Administration is being gradually consolidated amid the welter and chaos of a tottering civilization, that the friends should present a united front to those forces of internal dissension, which, if not completely wiped out, will bring our work to inevitable destruction." Thanks for this other citation, Mark. It seems the term is also used to refer to our ability to arrive at consultative decision and to act on them with unanimity. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/10/04 9:27:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? Dear James, I modern historian might not either. My recollection is that Abdu'l-Baha in London is not a canonical text. We do not have the original transcripts for any of these talks and we can't really ascertain what Abdu'l-Baha actually said. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:33:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breakshuman history into different periods (dispensations) where God dealswith human beings in a particular way Dear Gilberto, This was a little different. Dispensationalism is usually associated with fundamentalism and is based on the premise that God's way of dealing with humanity changed dramatically. Ideas of Progressive Revelation in the 19th century were based more on the notion of God enfolding His nature to us overtime. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 5:06:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While I'm open to a "broader" understanding of the term, I feel that because the passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : "Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain ofsuccessive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb."; Dear Sandy, Oh I think the concept is implicit in Baha'u'llah's Writings. It is just that the term itself is derived from Christianity. Khazeh posted the following website and Table of Contents of one 19th century work on this subject on Bridges some time ago. Since it wasn't exactly a personal post, I'm sure he won't mind if I place it below. I may have to take back what I said earlier about dispensationalism, but I think its ties are more with Christian millenarianism in general. warmest, Susan The bookTHE APPROACHING END OF THE AGEVIEWED IN THE LIGHT OFHISTORY, PROPHECY, AND SCIENCEbyH. GRATTAN GUINNESSMDCCCLXXIX (1879)IS AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNEThttp://www.historicism.com/Guinness/Approaching/aeota.htmPart I.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONCHAPTER I.GOD'S REVELATION OF HIMSELF TO MAN HAS BEEN A PROGRESSIVE ONE.- TRUTH INGENERAL HAS BEEN REVEALED PROGRESSIVELY. PROPHECY, THE DIVINE HISTORY OF THEFUTURE, CONSISTS OF A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS.- PRACTICAL RESULTSOFTHE COMPREHENSION AND APPLICATION OF THIS PRINCIPLE.CHAPTER II.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE RELATIVE PERIOD OF THE SECOND ADVENT OFOURLORD JESUS CHRIST.CHAPTER III.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE MILLENNIUM, THE RESURRECTION, AND THEJUDGMENT.Part II.PROGRESSIVE INTERPRETATION.CHAPTER 1.HUMAN COMPREHENSION OF DIVINE PROPHECY HAS BEEN, AND WAS INTENDED TO BEPROGRESSIVE.-THREE IMPORTANT INFERENCES FROM DANIEL XII.9. - THERE IS ABLAMELESS AND A GUILTY IGNORANCE OF THE FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY. - INSTANCESOFEACH.- REASONS FOR A PARTIAL AND TEMPORARY OBSCURITY OF PROPHECY; AND MEANSBYWHICH PROGRESSIVE COMPREHENSION OF ITS SIGNIFICATION HAS BEEN GRANTED.CHAPTER II.CONSIDERATION OF CERTAIN BROAD PRINCIPLES, ON WHICH THE APOCALYPSE IS TO BEINTERPRETED.-IT IS A SYMBOLIC PROPHECY, AND MUST BE TRANSLATED INTO ORDINARYLANGUAGE BEFORE IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.CHAPTER III.THE APOCALYPSE IS A CONTINUING PROPHECY EXTENDING FROM ITS OWN TIME, TO THECONSUMMATION OF ALL THINGS.-IMPORTANCE OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE, IN ORDER TOITSCORRECT INTERPRETATION. IT IS A PROPHECY CONCERNING THE EXPERIENCES OF THECHRISTIAN CHURCH, IN THE WORLD, AND NOT CONCERNING THOSE OF THE JEWISHNATION.Part III.FORETOLD AND FULFILLED.CHAPTER I.THE PROPHECIES OF "BABYLON," AND "THE BEAST."-REASONS FOR THE EXAMINATION OFTHESE TWO PROPHECIES. -FUNDAMENTAL, DIVINELY INTERPRETED; PRACTICALLYIMPORTANT.-BABYLON THE GREAT REPRESENTS THE APOSTATE CHURCH OF ROME.CHAPTER II.THE MAN OF SIN, OR ANTICHRIST.A GREAT FOURFOLD PROPHECY OF FUNDAMENTAL IMPORTANCE (DAN 7:7-27, REV 13:1-9,REV 17, 2THESS 2).- THE ROMAN POWER.-ITS LAST FORM AS PREDICTED HERE.-INDIVIDUAL AND DYNASTIC USE OF THE WORD "KING."- AN APOSTATE, BLASPHEMOUS,ANDPERSECUTING POWER,- EXACTLY ANSWERING TO THE ONE HERE PREDICTED, HAS BEEN INEXISTENCE FOR MORE THAN TWELVE CENTURIES, IN THE SUCCESSION OF THE POPES OFROME-ORIGIN OF THIS POWER.-ITS MORAL CHARACTER.- ITS SELF-EXALTINGUTTERANCES.-ITS SELF- EXALTING ACTS. -ITS SUBTLETIES; --FALSE DOCTRINES, AND LYINGWONDERS.-ITS IDOLATRIES. -ITS DOMINION.-ITS PERSECUTION OF THE SAINTS.-ITSDURATION.-ITSDOOM.Part IV.INQUIRY INTO THE DIVINE SYSTEM OF TIMES AND SEASONS NATURAL AND REVEALED.SECTION I. SOLAR AND LUNAR DOMINION CAUSAL AND CHRONOLOGICAL.CHAPTER I.CHRONOLOGY, BIBLICAL AND NATURAL. IS THERE HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO? SOLARANDLUNAR DOMINION IN THE INORGANIC WORLD. SOLI-LUNAR CONTROL OF TERRESTRIALREVOLUTIONS. WINDS. RAINS, OCEAN CURRENTS. -TIDES, ELECTRIC AND MAGNETICVARIATIONS.CHAPTER II.SOLI-LUNAR DOMINION IN THE ORGANIC WORLD. EFFECTS OF LIGHT AND HEAT ON THEDEVELOPMENT AND DISTRIBUTION OF PLANTS AND ANIMALS AND OF THE HUMAN RACE.-DIURNAL AND SEASONAL CHANGES IN RELATION TO HEALTH AND DISEASE.SECTION II.THE LAW OF COMPLETION IN WEEKS.CHAPTER I.THE WEEK IN RELATION TO THE PERIODICITY OF VITAL PHENOMENA. PERIODICITY INTHEDEVELOPMENT OF INSECTS, FISHES, BIRDS AND MAMMALIA.-PERIODICITY IN THEGROWTHAND FUNCTIONAL ACTIVITY OF MANKIND IN HEALTH AND IN DISEASE.CHAPTER II.THE WEEK IN SCRIPTURE. THERE IS - A CHRONOLOGICAL SYSTEM IN SCRIPTURE.-IT ISASYSTEM OF WEEKS.- THIS SYSTEM IS TRACEABLE THROUGHOUT THE LAW, THE PROPHETS,AND THE GOSPEL.-THE WEEK IN THE MOSAIC RITUAL.-THE WEEK IN. JEWISHHISTORY.-THEWEEK IN PROPHECY.-THE WEEK OF DAYS -OF WEEKS-OF MONTHS-OF YEARS-OF WEEKS OFYEARS-OF YEARS OF YEARS-OF MILLENARIES.CHAPTER III.THE WEEK IN HISTORY.SCRIPTURE THE CHART OF HISTORY.-PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS AS TO HISTORIC ANDPROPHETIC CHRONOLOGY.- THE AGE OF THE HUMAN RACE. -OLD TESTAMENTCHRONOLOGY.-THE HEBREW AND THE SEPTUAGINT CHRONOLOGY COMPARED.- HOW ARE WE TO INTERPRETTHESYMBOLIC
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 10:55:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christianconcept you were thinking of which was similar to progressiverevelation? Dear Gilberto, I think progressive revelation was a much more general concept in Christianity than Dispensationalism which is rather specific. I was raised liberal Presbyterian but I heard the Bible spoken of in terms of progressive revelation when I was growing up. Indeed, modern Process Theology in some ways grows out of that. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. Ithink about "A thief in the night" and the related interpretations ofthe Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected thecoming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/21/2004 12:44:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hadnt run across this most interesting bit of information before. Could you give a little more of this history, or perhaps point me towards some further reading? Here's some websites on him: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc06/htm/everlasting_gospel.htm http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj3y.htm warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:03:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I run into when I try to think through the consequences of such beliefs. Dear Ron, Before we start, let's keep a couple of things clear. As I understand it the term 'omniscient at will' applies *only* the Manifestation. That phrase occurs only in a letter written on the Guardian's behalf wherein he insists that *unlike* the Manifestation he is not omniscient at will. I don't know of any place in the Writings where the term "Omnipotent at will" occurs but inasmuch as the Manifestation reflects all the Names and Attributes of God one could infer this. But it would be just that, an inference. I don't think I've ever talked about this myself. Furthermore, I have always argued that it appears to be the case that much of the time the Manifestation does *not* will omniscience. Others have answered your questions regarding the languages of certain figures. Just one minor correction. I didn't indicate that the Guardian's French was better than his English (although that is what he won prizes for at the Syrian Protestant College) only that this was the language in which he received his early education. And he always counted in that language. He went to Oxford, by the way, not Cambridge and he was already fluent in both English and French before he went there. "The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate." Baha'u'llah sometimes referred to Himself as illiterate as well. ;-} And yes, all Manifestations have attested to their humanity. As for Abraham, I think historically speaking it is difficult to say anything at all about Abraham. We can't even say for sure that He existed. Stories are told about Him in both the Bible and the Qur'an to make specific points, but I wouldn't use them to speculate regarding His existential state. "Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me." I believe the Heavenly Maiden is the Divine Nature of Baha'u'llah Himself. "The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their adulthood." I expect that on some level that is true. I think what you are missing in this whole discussion is the understanding that Manifestations have *both* a human and a divine nature. "Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith is very unlikely to be able to grow enough to have any major impact any time soon, it seems that 1000 years is a short time. I do not think the Great Peace can come about in 1000 years." I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the Baha'i Faith's ability to grow enough to have a major impact soon. I think we will see tremendous growth within the next forty years. But I also think it is quite possible that the Most Great Peace will not come within this 1000 Dispensation. "If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take literally should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, precisely as Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), then why should we condemn such understangings by current day people?" That is a very speculative question which is impossible to answer. You presume that the things that Manifestation will see as symbolic and not literal are the same things you would like to understand symbolically and not literally. You are also assuming we are taking things literally, which may not at all be the case. I don't think future Manifestations are going to contradict the authoritative interpretations of the Guardian or Abdu'l-Baha and those are the *only* interpretations Baha'is are bound to accept. "Was a Christian who understood the Resurection of Christ to be symbolic wrong and apostate until 1844 (and also the second coming)?" Actually most Christians who saw the Resurrection of Christ as symbolic in antiquity were heretics mostly because they denied Jesus had a physical body to begin with. "Is a Baha'i who
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:59:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land, and the "jailers" of Abdu'l Baha.I assume he had some fluency as did his parents and grandparents. Dear Scott, Abdu'l-Baha did sometimes write in Ottoman Turkish but I don't know that Shoghi Effendi knew it. Keep in mind that the Guardian was educated first in Catholic and then in American Presbyterian schools. These schools emphasized Arabic literature, but not Turkish. It is hard to say, though, inasmuch as Ottoman Turkish was no longer being used by the time Shoghi Effendi became Guardian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:43:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: why did Baha'u'llah not speakwith Browne in English, it is because he didn't know English. Does this make senseif He is omniscient at will? I think it does because I can argue that he did not will to know English. I don't think he likes playing magician! Dear John, I think He made that pretty clear, that the Cause of God was not a sideshow. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/29/2004 11:03:09 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I take Their statements literally unless thye violate natural law. The existence of a human who inspired the stories about Abraham does not require violation of physical laws of the universe, it is , in other words, credible, even when understood literally. Dear Ron, The existence of a man who inspired such stories would certainly not violate the physical laws of the universe but wouldn't it take supernatural knowledge to know if someone actually lived nearly four thousand years ago when we have no records from that time telling us of them? And it sounds like anything supernaturalis considered by you to be a violation of the physical laws of the universe. Otherwise there would be no reason to object to the notion of omniscience. But by the way, what physical law of the universal does omniscience and infallibility actually violate? "As usual, there is the question of waht does "omniscient at will" mean?" Yes, and that is the real question you ought to be raising. "I apply to the this statement of the Guardian's secretary the standard raised by Baha'u'llah when assessing the Books of previous Manifestations: is it credible literally, or does it require spiritual interpretation to make it credible?" I wasn't aware that was the standard He used. There are times when He discounts an interpretation because it is logically absurd, but that I don't think He suggests that statements of scripture as a wholebe understood literally or not on the basis of the criteria you state. Perhaps you have a specific passage in mind? In any case, the standard I tend to use in interpreting such statements is whether or not it fits the context. Otherwise I tend to leave 'spiritualized' interpretations which go far beyond the context, to the Manifestation Himself or to authorized interpreters. " is the Guardian's secretary now a higher authority than the text of teh Quran to which Baha'u'llah applied this standard in teh IqaN? You begin to see how our literal understanding of Infallibility begins to cause absurdities, (as secretary with more Authority than than Muhammad and Baha'u'llah combined)." The Guardian's secretary has no authority whatsoever. It is the Guardian which has authority and tells his secretaries what to write. And yes, ultimately it is the authoritative interpretations of the Guardian which determine Baha'u'llah's intention. "What are these miracles "associated: with Baha'u'llah? How are they associated?" You will find lots of them mentioned by those around Him. "Did Baha'u'llah record them Himself?" Nope. He didn't consider them worthy of mention. But He never denied He performed them. "But the miracles I believe in are spiritual, not violations of natural physical law.God is a law maker, not a law breaker." I tend to think that natural law is nothing more than the way God customarily does things. "I agree, Their Divine Nature is completely real, but spiritual, not physical. Their physical natures were human. You do in spiritual realities, do you not?" Yep. I just don't regard them as symbolic. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. Dear Ron, I was very young when I became a Baha'i. When I read Release the Sun and compared it with the Gospels it seemed to me that it was the same story. I couldn't accept one and reject the other. Either both were true or both were false. In that sense, I think we were coming from very different places. You were reacting against your fundamentalist upbringing and accepted the Faith because you thought it was not like the kind of Christianity you were raised with. I became a Baha'i because it *was* the same as Christianity in my eyes. Mind you, I was raised liberal Christian. "How can you be certain. Do you ever have doubts." Yep. Do you remember the posting I made about doubt nearly seven years ago? Here is the URL: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m9.html There is a short book by afamous Christian theologian by the name of Paul Tillich entitled *The Dynamics of Faith*. He argues that doubt is an integral part of faith. You might take a look at it sometime. "We are led to expect a Baha'i World Order (and most Baha'is I know expect it real soon now.)" Really? I don't know any Baha'is who expect the Baha'i World Order anytime soon. I remember some that were like that in my youth, however. I mentioned to my friend that I had recently returned form a business trip to India, adn that i had the opportunity visit the Lotus Baha'i Center in New Delhi. I found it most beautiful and peaceful. His eyes lit up and he said he had hear that more people visit the New Delhi House of Worship than visit the Taj Mahal. "Dr. Maneck, I know you have a history in India and you have mentioned the fantastic success in growing the Faith in India many years ago Is there any evidence that the Baha'i community is growing still in India?" Well, I know last year there were some 1700 declarations in a single cluster of which over a third had completed Book One of Ruhi. Getting growth has never been a problem. Sustaining a vibrant community, as you mention, something else entirely. I can assure you that in the previous mass enrollments they never would have gotten over a third of the enrollees do anything like this together, so this is really quite promising. I'm going to post a newsletter up about this in a minute if I can. If I can't, I'll send it to you privately. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Reflections on Growth
Here is the newsletter I promised you. Reflections on GrowthNumber 1 March 2004Intensive Growth in Advanced ClustersDuring the past year in a number of countries, greater attention was given to expansionin advanced clusters. The most systematic approach to date is emerging in Asia, where theCounsellors decided to place emphasis on large-scale expansion during their consultations andplanning with certain National Spiritual Assemblies and Regional Bah Councils. In the firstsix months of the year, through a focus on teaching projects in strong clusters, approximately16,000 new believers entered the Faith.Efforts are now being made to learn how to balance expansion and consolidation sothat growth can be sustained. The friends in some clusters have successfully establishedtheir training program and pyramid of human resources, helping a sizable number of believersto proceed through the entire sequence of courses, thereby creating a new dynamic in theactivities in the cluster. The energies of these newly trained believers have also been appliedto multiplying core activities, and to involving an increasing number of non-Bahs into thepattern of Bah community life. Finally, believers in these clusters have been able to takethe additional step of initiating systematic teaching activities. Many have had success in thisnew endeavor, managing to bring more than 100 new believers into the Faith in the cluster whileincorporating a percentage of them into the training courses. In doing so, they have completeda first cycle of activities for sustainable growth, and have set the stage for enlisting futurecontingents, as the cycle of training, multiplication of activities, and intensive teaching repeatsitself. In countries where substantial enrollments have traditionally been easy to achieve, theinstitute can grow in size to accommodate the influx of as many as 100 new believers in amonthover 1,000 new Bahs a year within a single cluster.Progress in establishing a cycle of activities for sustainable expansion and consolidationwill, of course, require that particular attention be paid to intensive teaching. From reportsreceived to date, it seems there are at least four different approaches that are emerging in differentsettings for accelerated expansion in strong clusters.Receptive Populations in Core Activities: The Adami Tulu Cluster in EthiopiaIn one emerging pattern for intensive growth, the three key core activities act as portalsto entry by troops among a receptive population. This was evident in recent developments inEthiopia. In reflecting upon who could be invited to participate in study circles, the Bahs inthe Adami Tulu cluster, drawing on the opportunities available to some Bah schoolteachers,decided to invite their secondary school students. Soon after Ri7vn 2003, one youth wasapproached and encouraged to invite some friends to a study circle. The students were instantlyattracted to Book 1 of the Ruhi Institute. Soon 20, 40, then almost 200 young people wereawaiting the opportunity to study the series of Ruhi Institute books, all as a result of friendsinviting friends. Bahs across the country rallied to support the groundswell of interest. Onegroup of the most capable students was taken to the national institute facility in Debra Zeit for anPrepared under the auspices of the International Teaching Centre for the institution of the Counsellors2intensive study program of almost two months during the summer break, in order to complete theentire sequence of courses. Other intensive courses were offered in the cluster to each contingentof students. Initially almost all of the participants were non-Bahs, but they soon embraced theFaith through the influence of the Word of God experienced during the study of Book 1. Theyoung people were fervent in their newfound love of Bahullh; many testified during thecourse of the program to their desire to teach their friends and family.By the end of the summer period, there were 392 declarants. Of these, 386 had completedBook 1; 282Book 2; 76Book 3 (due to the limited number of copies); 161Book 4;111Book 6; and 62Book 7. Over 600 Bahs, friends, and family gathered for the ceremonyhonoring those students who completed the entire sequence. According to a report received atthe Bah World Centre,Upon the graduation ceremony they were able to fascinate us with their deep andinsightfully composed poems, amazing dramas and moving songs. The delight they createdis such that that we cannot possibly portray it in words. If it were possible, all one wouldwish is that all those well-wishers and interested parties were physically present to witnessthe height of spiritual joy and happiness they managed to create.At a later point, a reflection meeting was held, consisting largely of the new believers, whoenthusiastically committed themselves to invite 1,067 non-Bahs to participate in core activitiesin the three months while
Re: Reflections on Growth
Whoops, I see that didn't work! Let me try something else. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:46:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There arecertain former Bah whose actions do not necessarily constituteCovenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bahinstitutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bah to leave them to their own devices." (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) Dear Brent, An experience I have had, and I think this may be true for Ron as well is that sometimes the associating with Baha'is in perfectly good standing can be more corrosive to ones faith than associating with the folks mentioned above. For instance, while I find the Baha'i Discuss list more personally corrosive than I find TRB, though I wouldn't recommend anyone hang around the latter. What do we do in those cases, stop hanging around Baha'is? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stanwood Cobb's books on line
In a message dated 12/30/2004 3:24:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Brentcito 'Little' Brent? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/30/2004 5:49:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RS: Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one? Why else would Abdu'l-Baha use an interpreter ? Dear Ron and Sandra, I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the timeHe left America.I suspect speaking English back to them may have beenmore of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to correct them. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:12:25 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I'm sure there are. What I'm wondering is if there are any SEDs in those areas which might be helping to provide relief and if so, where could we send $$? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:23:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: this was right after Muhammed had developed a signet ring (Seal) for doing business with Byzantium. Huh? I think Muslims put as much stake in what Muhammad supposedly said at His last sermon as they do that verse in the Qur'an. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:57:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Qur'an warns against hadith. Where does it do that? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: COVENANT of the Prophets [Sura 3 verse 81] was [RE: Perennialism]
In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:59:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Prophet married her (by traditional accounts) when she was seven, but did not consumate the marriage until she was eleven. That seems reasonable to me by the standards of the time. Dear Scott, There are some hadith accounts that suggest she may have been as old as her late teens. I couldn't tell you which account is more reliable, however. But yes, girls usually married as soon after puberty as possible in antiquity. Chances are the Virgin Mary was about 14 when she gave birth to Christ. Any older than that and she would have already been wed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:35:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But in general, that books which I've read which come out of the"Deobandi" circles are actually pretty explicitly and uniformlysupportive of Sufism. Tablighi Jamaat which is probably the Muslimworld's largest mass movement (their annual convention gets a higherattendance of Muslims than the hajj) comes out of the Deobandiperspective and they are certainly infavor of Sufism. Dear Rich and Gilberto, I think it depends on what kind of Sufism you are talking about. The Deobandi school opposed the kinds Sufism which had built bridges with Hinduism and created the kind of universalism that typified Mughal India. But orders like Naqshabandi they had no problem with. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:57:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don'tthink that that kind of success is much of an indication of truth. Infact, I think in general the liberation theology perspective (whereGod is on the side of the poor and the oppressed) is much morecompelling. Dear Gilberto, Better be careful, we are agreeing again. ;-} "Onmore than one occasion, I've seen Bahais make similar arguments bylooking at Western economic power or technological success compared tothe Muslim world and try to make some kind of implication about Islam." That's rather funny, because the only time I've seen the Writings argue anything at all along those lines it had to do with how much Western progress was due to the influence of the Islamic world! But I myself have one word which explainsWestern hegemony, namelyexploitation. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Authority and translation differences
In a message dated 1/8/2005 4:26:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sale's translation is the most scholarly we have, but Rodwell's version is more literary, and hence easier for reading. (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (23 November 1934). Dear Richard, Look at the date of that statement. In 1934 those were about the only translations available. We've had much better ones since then. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ignorance or forgetfulness
In a message dated 1/9/2005 3:58:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe it's just me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem isn't ignorance as much as forgetfulness. No offense, Gilberto, but is that your *personal* perspective. It looks likethe rather standard Islamic one to me. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Religion and State
My understanding is that the word siyasat in 19th century (and early 20th century) Persian and Arabic means leadership and not politics as it is commonly used. The 1943 translation of the eighth Ishraq in the Baha'i World Faith reads: "Administrative affair are all in charge of the House of Justice, and devotional acts must be observed according as they are revealed in the Book." This is a translation by Ali Kuli Khan in 1906. Dear Firouz, And as you know, it has been consistently translated as 'matters'of state' or 'affairs of state' ever since. The term siyasat does come from a root meaning leadership, however, the term came to increasingly refer to statecraft well before the 19th century. I presume you are familiar with the Siyasat Name, by Nizamu'l-Mulk. It is the most famous Iranian book of statecraft and was written in the 11th century, I believe. In any case, particularly, it would not make much sense to translate amur siyasat as "administrative affairs' because the passage is talking about the use of reward and punishment. Without temporal power, the Houses of Justice aren't going to be able to administer much in the way of that. Shoghi Effendi, in a letter written on his behalf, has his secretary write the following: "Eventually, however, as you have rightly conceived it, the Movement will, as soon as it is fully developed and recognized, embrace both religious and political issues. In fact Bahá'u'lláh clearly states that affairs of state as well as religious questions are to be referred to the House of Justice into which the Assemblies of the Bahá'ís will eventually evolve." 30 November 1930. Cited in a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice and addressed to Sen McGlinn April 27, 1995. Abdu'l-Baha also makes it perfectly clear that the Houses of Justice have jurisdiction over enacting secular [qanun] and civil law [akham-i madaniyyih] as well. *Qanun * or secular law, is the word used in the passage from the Will and Testament: "The House of Justice enacteth the law and the government enforceth it." The reference to the House of Justice making civil law can be found in 'Abdu' l-Bahá's Tablet on the the Universal House of Justice and the principles of jurisprudence which can be found here: http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/bayt.adl.usul.qadai.au.html You wrote cited the following passage from the Lawh-i Dunya: "According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice. ... "" What Baha'u'llah is doing here is making the distinction between the legislative and executive functions. The same distinction is made by Abdu'l-Baha in the Will and Testament when He says "This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong ..." Likewise there is a talk given by Abdu'l-Baha, recorded in Star of the West wherein He reiterates this point: "Thee centre of the executive power is the government, and the legislative power lies in the hands of thoughtful and wise men. On the other hand, if these strong pillars and firm foundations are not complete and comprehensive, how can it be supposed that there will be safety and salvation for the nation? But as, in these latter days, such excellency is rare, the government and the whole body of the nation are in sore need of just and discerning directions. Thus it is of the utmost importance to establish an assembly of learned men, who, being proficient in the different sciences and capable of dealing with all the present and future requirements will settle the questions in accordance with forbearance and firmness. All the civic affairs and the legislation of material laws for the increasing needs of the enlightened humanity belong to the House of Justice. This the House of Justice, will be not only a body for the legislation of laws according to the spirit and requirement of the time, but a board of arbitration for the settlement of all disputes arising between peoples. When the Universal House of Justice is organized the members will do their utmost for the realization of greater cordiality and comity amongst the nations. The Laws of Bahá'u'lláh are the unchangeable, organic laws of the Universal House of Justice. They are the very foundation upon which the structure of additional legislation is built... Again, I repeat, the House of Justice, whether National or Universal, has only legislative power and not executive power... ( Star of the West, Vol. VII, No. 15, pp. 138-139) In traditional Islamic thought, legislation is not really a legitimate function of government. Law is seen as something divinely revealed and
Re: Religion and State
In a message dated 1/14/2005 3:47:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At the top of the document Jonah states "Note: the article "Church and State in the World Order of Baha'u'llah," by Sen McGlinn, also addresses these issues." Is this the document that the Universal House of Justice isrefuting? Dear John, I think that article was written after Sen McGlinn received this letter but Sen had expressed these arguments earlier on the internet. When Sen subsequently wrote the World Centre asking for information regardingcertain documents on this topic, the House of Justice apparently took advantage of that opportunity to correcthiserrors. However, Sen never refers to this letter in any of his later articles on the same topic which argue the same position as he had before; a position which the House also disallows in the April 7, 1999letter where they write the following: "The effort, rather, has been to sow the seeds of doubt among believers about the Faith's teachings and institutions by appealing to unexamined prejudices that Bahá'ís may have unconsciously absorbed from non-Bahá'í society. In defiance of the clear interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and the Guardian, for example, Bahá'u'lláh's limiting of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men is misrepresented as merely a "temporary measure" subject to eventual revision if sufficient pressure is brought to bear. Similarly, Shoghi Effendi's explanation of Bahá'u'lláh's vision of the future Bahá'í World Commonwealth that will unite spiritual and civil authority is dismissed in favour of the assertion that the modern political concept of "separation of church and state" is somehow one that Bahá'u'lláh intended as a basic principle of the World Order He has founded." http://bahai-library.com/?file=compilation_issues_study_bahai.html The latestincarnation ofSen's argument is the article: "Theocratic Assumptions in Bahá'í Literature" which was published in the book *Reason and Revelation*. You can read my review of that article here: http://theocracy.susanmaneck.com/ Because Sen has made the same argument in so many forms, which got published in a couple of places, and because those same articles weredistributed widely on the internet many of the friends have accepted this positionunaware that the House has refuted it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Finality of the Bible
In a message dated 1/15/2005 1:15:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What exactly did he say about them? And how do you know they are the same? I don't have the book with me right now. Have you never read "That which Delivers from Error"? It is a classic. "And how do you know they are the same?" If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Religion and State
In a message dated 1/17/2005 2:51:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not think that "the wisdom of referring the laws of society to the House of Justice" the laws of society means civil laws, Dear Firouz, My translation of akham-i madaniyyih here isthe quiteliteral, though it varies slightly from the authorized translation. Akham means regulations and madaniyyah is from a root meaning city, as in Medina.The term'civil' is derived fromthe Latin*civitas* meaning city. I have not read the original Persian of thisTabletor to whhat question Abdu'l-Baha was replying. Do you haveany more information? I don't have the question he was responding to, but I have seen the Persian. That's why I translated the term as I did. Also you mentioned that the UHJ is a legistlative body, but in matters of religions it seems they are also an executive body, for example they can decide how the various funds and Huquq'u'llah to be spent. Well, legislatures do usually decide the budget. ;-} However, distribution of Huquqwas originally one of the functions of the Guardian which fell to the House more or less by default. It is actually the more 'secular' funds as Steve Cooney enumerates (as well as waqf), which the House was given explicit jurisdiction over. In any case, don't seeany justification for the Houseas exercising executive power in a Baha'i commonwealth as opposed to the religious affairs of the Baha'i community. In K 82 Baha'u'llah is referrring to kings as the emblems of God's sovereignty for all times. Except there is another passage where He talks about power being taken to the kings and given to the people. But that is a description of what is happening even now. I don't have any problem with the notion of kings co-existing with Baha'i institutions and certainly don't envision them giving up their thrones when they become Baha'is or even when we have a Baha'i commonwealth. As I indicated, it is my understanding that Houses of Justice are to be legislatures. Kings could certainly continue to be the executive under such circumstances.. At about the time of the Iranian Constitutional Revolution of 1905-6, Abdu'l-Baha wrote that "...Constitutional Government, according to the irrefutable text of the Religion of God, is the cause of the glory and prosperity of the nation and the civilization and freedom of the people." (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas 492) While the Kitab-e Aqdas is not mentioned here, it seems likely that this is what Abdu'l-Baha means by 'the irrefutable text,' i.e., that Abdu'l-Baha considered this paragraph of the Aqdas as endorsing a democratic government with a constitutional monarchy, at least for Iran. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. The Baha'i system is not undemocratic anymore than it is anti-monarchical. You also quoted from Star of the West, Vol. VII, No. 15, pp. 138-139: "Thee centre of the executive power is the government, and the legislative power lies in the hands of thoughtful and wise men ". Further you mentioned that "... however legislative functions are given,not to learned clerics but to the elected consultative assemblies, in other words, the Houses of Justice.". I would like to ask you what makes the members of houses of justice to be "thoughtful and and wise men". Because of the part which follows which for some inexplicable reason you just cut out: Thus it is of the utmost importance to establish an assembly of learned men, who, being proficient in the different sciences and capable of dealing with all the present and future requirements will settle the questions in accordance with forbearance and firmness. All the civic affairs and the legislation of material laws for the increasing needs of the enlightened humanity belong to the House of Justice. This the House of Justice, will be not only a body for the legislation of laws according to the spirit and requirement of the time, but a board of arbitration for the settlement of all disputes arising between peoples. When the Universal House of Justice is organized the members will do their utmost for the realization of greater cordiality and comity amongst the nations. The Laws of Bahá'u'lláh are the unchangeable, organic laws of the Universal House of Justice. They are the very foundation upon which the structure of additional legislation is built... Again, I repeat, the House of Justice, whether National or Universal, has only legislative power and not executive power... ( Star of the West, Vol. VII, No. 15, pp. 138-139) Note this last sentence is a reiteration of the first sentence you quoted. You wrote: "Since this is in a letter by one of the Guardian's secretaries, it is not part of the Holy Writings." They are still authoritative and it is from these that we get most ofthe Guardian's authoritative interpretations
Re: ruhi in ireland
In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The same when I hear glorification of things. how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one? Dear Janine, If most people are being turned off by Book One such that they are not continuing with the program, might that not suggest a basic flaw in the material? Book One should be designed in such a way as to draw people into the process, I would think. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Not Exhausted
In a message dated 12/23/2004 8:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Don't Bahais say that the world will continue to exist indefinitely?) Dear Gilbert, I'm going through some old posts that I missed during my vacation and noted the above remark. Baha'is believe creation, not the world will continue to exist indefinitely. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Religion and State
In a message dated 1/18/2005 12:36:22 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course, in context, `Abdu'l-Baha is referring to legislative deductions. Correct. But the issue of the proper relationship between religion and state is a matter of law. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think I would define "H.ikmat" a trifle differently in a Bahá'í reference.Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better definition? Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect. For instance during the massacres of Yazd in 1906 Baha'is were compelled to celebrate the martyrdom of their fellow believers, opening their shops and putting out colored lights lest they too be identified and killed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Butthey see the Bahai faith as a threat to their worldview, theirculture, their religion. And as a response, several countries led byreligious militant fundamentalists join together an attack the fewBahai countries which exist.So would it be permissible for the Bahai country to fight back? Dear Gilberto, That would be a question for the House of Justice to answer. "If the Bahai country fought back, would that be considered a holy war?" No. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But when Bahais make a big deal out say that "holy war" has beenabrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful,or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. whenthere are significant exceptions which make that untrue. Dear Gilberto, Not necessarily all religions, just the one that immediately proceeded us. ;-} We are not as pacifistic as Jains, for instance. "Alot of times I get the impression that Bahai self-descriptions givethe impression of being significantly and substantially different fromIslam." On this issue I think we are. Baha'u'llah's prohibition of jihad was made within an Islamic context, after all. "But on further examination, it seems like the Bahai claims aren'tsignificantly different. And the two main examples which come to mindare gender equality and the use of force." I think one only has to look at the relative status of women in these respective communities to see there is a very real difference indeed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:46:40 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: it's true that the early, formative years of the Babí andBahá'í Faith were characterized by a good deal of violence and bloodshed Babi, not Baha'i. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 6:02:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Although Shoghi Effendi said that abortions should not be permitted unless authorized by the woman's physician Dear Mark, I don't recall the Guardian referring to a woman's physician in this context though I'm aware the House of Justice has. Do you have a reference? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is the distinction you are making between "protecting" and "defending"? Dear Gilberto, "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I'm talking about what could be life and death matters. "And could "protecting" the faith include military action?" No. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't absolutelyexclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defendthemselves and fight non-Bahais." Dear Gilberto, They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for sure. Waging war in defense of our religionis forbidden, period. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadithwhich states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjustruler." Dear Gilberto, Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still forbidden to kill in the name of our religion, and that is not true of Islam. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where did the word 'righteous' come from? In "Bahaullah and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called"Righteous Warfare" Okay. The term 'righteous warfare' occurs nowhere in the Writings which is why I didn't recognize it. I prefer to use the term 'just war.' The concept which Abdu'l-Baha articulates is something which goes back at least as far as St. Augustine. "In your own paper, you said " In many cases hikmat calls for theapparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure theprotection of the Faith."" Yes, that would be an obvious not an apparent suspension. And because some Baha'i principles can be suspended, doesn't mean they all can. As I said, you are taking a hypothetical which has never occurred and trying to argue on that basis that we say the same thing as Islam. You could use hikmat to argue anything at all by that logic! "I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involvingviolence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could causeBahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war"." You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself with these word: "My imprisonment doeth Me no harm, neither the tribulations I suffer, nor the things that have befallen Me at the hands of My oppressors. That which harmeth Me is the conduct of those who, though they bear My name, yet commit that which maketh My heart and My pen to lament." I don't think any Baha'i would want to do this. "That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for itto be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under thedispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use offorce under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think I"ve heard aclear Bahai statement about the first case." Why do you need a 'Baha'i' statement in the first place? Don't you know what your Qur'an has to say on the subject? Do you need us to post the relevant quotations? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pretty much every discussion of physical jihad I've seen from atraditional/orthodox persepctive talks about it in the context ofdefending Muslim lands and lives Dear Gilberto, When it comes to defending lives and land Baha'is would not make a distinction between Baha'is or non-Baha'is, except we will not fight to defend ourselves against those who persecute us in the name of religion. But if a Jew were attacked for his religion, I might well defend him. "So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between"defending the religion" and "defending the country"." It was in your own statement. Your traditional juristsconsider it a holy war todefend those that share their own religion. It might well be a 'just' war for a Baha'i to defend those who are oppressed but we make no distinction on the basis of their religion except for our not defending ourselves such as you just made. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in yourreligion." Dear Gilberto, There is a difference between a religion allowing or even calling for certain things and their being done in the name of religion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:15:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1903, not 1906. Oops, sorry. I always associate with the Constitutional Revolution. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as Isaid it was God-sent for my son. Dear Ahang, The same thing is true for me and my son, on both counts. Only I suffered through the *entire* Book One. I took Neil to the Holy Land with me in December of 2000. Mr. Furutan had quite a talk with him about the Covenant and the necessity of reading the Writings every morning and evening. Last year when I had made some disparagingly commentabout Ruhi,Neil said to me, "Mom,I've been reading theWritings ever since that meeting with Mr. Furutan but the Writings are hard to understand. Ruhi helps." Neil had been reading the Writings fluently at Feast since he was eight years old. It never occurred to me that he might not understand what he was reading. I must say, Neil made the best argument for Ruhi I've heard thus far. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? Dear Gilberto, By "Writings" I mean our scriptures; what we consider the Word of God. Baha'u'llah and the New Era is just a piece of secondary literature. "That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates onthe concept in interesting ways as well." I think it is elaborating the concept of a 'just war' but as I said, that isn't the same as a holy war. "I didn't say that they all can be. But in your paper you wrote:"Bahá'u'lláh regarded the application of any of his laws as containedin the Kitab-I-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of wisdom."" The prohibition against jihad is all over the Baha'i Writings, not just in the Aqdas. "In no way shape or form, does Islam permit random Muslims to just goaround killing innocent folks and calling it "jihad". " Did anyone imply it did? "As far as I cantell, jihad only really makes sense in the context of a Muslimcountry." Jihads are also justified to defend Muslims living in the Daru'l-Harb as I'm sure you know, and bring their country into the Daru'l-Islam. They are not just waged for the purpose of protecting the Daru'l-Islam. "I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause Bahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war"." You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself. "There is almost an Orwellian feel to this:"Conquest can be a praiseworthy thing... war becomes the powerfulbasis of peace.. seeming wrath is mercy itself.. apparent tyranny thevery substance of justice.. warfare the cornerstone of peace."" Sure, play with the ellipses and you can make almost anything look sinister. "How do I know what the limitations are on the "righteous purpose"which justifies these sorts of actions for Abdul-Baha?" Doesn't He lay that out fairly clearly? He is saying you can defend your country against attack or put down internal rebellion. To understand what you (or Bahaullah) is saying was blotted out, sothat I can better evaluate whether the Bahai faith is saying anythingdifferent or better (or worse) Why don't you put up all the quotes from the Qur'an that deal with holy war, Gilberto. I think they pretty much all apply, but let's see them all." I've read what "my" Quran says on the subject." Okay, why don't you post them then. I'll find any that you leave out. ;-} warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:20:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odddistinction to make. I am not at all arguing about names and I have a difficult time figuring out why you find this so hard to grasp. Islam has both jihad and hudud penalities. They are in no way regarded as the same thing. That they can both result in death is really not relevant. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: would certainlyadmit that it has the potential to be abused (virtually all rules do)but jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think itis necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should takeit up with the author. Dear Gilberto, I should forewarn, Ahang here descends from a Zoroastrian family who could tell you a great deal about how the jizya was imposed in practice. The biggest barrier for Zoroastrians in accepting the Baha'i Faith was in having to accept the prophethood of Muhammad as well. *However*, Ahang, you should know that the Sasanians imposed this poll tax long before Muslims did. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:48:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I once knew someone who told me he only accepted Muhammad on the authority of Baha'u'llah. Dear Mark, I think most of us did at first. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 6:46:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are thereother official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf WarII? Dear Gilberto, That's the only one and it wasn't the House itself which wrote that document. They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but that it represented the kind of collective security which the world needed to move towards. In that sense, it is in startling contrast to this latest invasion of Iraq. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
Dear James, A number of your quotations are taken from Divine Philosophy which more or less falls into the category of pilgrim's notes. But I think your understanding is both right and wrong. The very purpose of the Baha'i Faith is to bring about the unity of humanity and by it, an end to war. But that doesn't mean that we don't believe any country has a right to defend itself when attacked. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:18:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.My mistake. Actually, I was thinking of both. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:09:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah? No. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 4:26:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims? The Bab never waged jihad. His followers fought in His absence when He was imprisoned. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
