I wrote: So, essentially, the position of Baha'u'llah's
followers is the same as Abel's: If thou dost stretch thy
hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my
hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the
cherisher of the worlds. We practice non-resistance in the
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:23:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/23/2004 6:56:29 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The human condition, spiritual realities are more fundamental than
technology or changes in social organization.
Scott:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:15:56 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Gilberto,
Responding to your comment:
So already the Quranic dispensation has examples of
resistance and non-resistance. Already there are forms of
guidance which help deal with vastly changing
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:43:39 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Gilberto, you wrote: Some situations now are like
situations then, and if we understand the connection properly
one can act accordingly.
Sandra:
Undoubtedly, a Muslim will follow the teachings of
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/2004 9:46:05 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:
In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.
Doesn't collective security include fighting against
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations arelargely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
1. Human killing humanfor revenge.
2. Human killing animal for food.
3. Human killing human to prevent him from suffering (crushed under a
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
largely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
I agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I certainly agree
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
largely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
6. Human killing human to defend one's religion
G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stoppersecution. This would have saved lives.
J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious persecution?Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that all wars were committed by bad
Hi, Scott,
At 12:11 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
Civil war is a phenomenon pretty much unknown in tribes. Tribes make warfare
within anathema. Blood-feud is tightly controlled with the tribe.
In other words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are
exogamous.
With regards, Mark
In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:24:10 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In other
words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are
exogamous.
I knew we could rely on you for the proper sociological term. I studied the
phenomena from the historical
Gilberto,
At 12:51 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
But is this a morally significant difference? The Hutu and Tutsi were brought
up elsewhere. I mean, randomly cutting up the non-combatants on other side
with machetes is going to be wrong whether the other side is a tribe or a
nation
I don't know
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:01:26 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:46:54 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Okay, what exactly is the difference in your definitions of tribe
and nation and more importantly why is it a morally
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:09 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stop
persecution. This would have saved lives.
J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious
persecution? Doesn't
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or downlike hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain actof killingwas wrong after 1844 it wouldhave been wrong before too,no?
J: One wayI wouldrespond is to say that
In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:28:02 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
One answer
would be that any religion worth its salt will tap intosomething deep and
long-lasting about the human condition and won't bejust subject to moral
fads which go up and down like
This is what we have in his own handwriting
***
**I
urge them to study
profoundly the revealed utterances of Baha'u'llah and the discourses of
Abdu'l-Baha and not to rely unduly on the representation and interpretation of the
Teachings given by Baha'i speakers and teachers. May the
My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to proselytization
(conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on compulsion in
religion. In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use threats or pressure
to entice someone to convert.
With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites:
Gilberto,
At 07:06 AM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
Fair enough. I'm not taking an issue with the policy as practiced but how it
is described. If Bahais, in principle, have essentially the same policy as
Muslims. What does it mean that Bahais say We don't prosyletize but Muslims
don't make the same
Gilberto:
Yes, exactly. Many religions prosyletize. But the Bahais give the
impression of prosyletizing, but not admitting that they are
prosyletizing.
. . .
And looking at the Bahais by themselves it might be possible to say
that there is just some isolated misunderstanding. But then
In a message dated 12/22/2004 7:07:07 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wed,
22 Dec 2004 03:39:01 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to
proselytization (conversion) are similar to the qur'anic
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:48:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/2004 7:07:07 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:39:01 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's
In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:31:01 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure
exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say "we don'tproselytize" they mean
the same thing which is in the Quran "there isno compulsion in religion"
then they should say "Both Islam
In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:52:20 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If that's
the case, then the Bahais should say "We believe in certaindistinctions
between the roles of men and women and we believe thatwisdom behind these
rules will be apparent at some point
Peace
Gilberto
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahá'ís say we don't
proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is
no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the
Bahai Faith is opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahá'ís say We
don't
Wouldn't the behaviours of Muhammad or even Hussein have
also been permitted under righteous warfare?
Peace
Gilberto
In relation to Muhammad:
*** The military expeditions of Muhammad, on the contrary, were always
defensive actions: a proof of this is that during thirteen years, in Mecca,
He and
In a message dated 12/22/2004 12:35:57 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Perhaps the
Bahai studies list is different from soc.religion.bahai.That would be a
fair distinction.
The News groups are ZOOS. The worst of them is alt.revisionism. I have
chosen to no longer
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:23:35 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wouldn't the behaviours of Muhammad or even Hussein have
also been permitted under righteous warfare?
Peace
Gilberto
Thank you for the references. Maybe I should spell out more. I wasn't
really so much asking
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:40:03 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:31:01 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say we don't
proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:31:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps I'm not being clear and not including all the background or
context for my comments. In another context, a Bahai claimed that the
Bahai faith is the *first* religion to teach gender equality. If that
is true,
Hi, Gilberto,
At 12:35 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
No. You are right. It's not automatic. It can vary with context. But in order
to survive in the world, on a regular basis we have to able to reliably
perform this correspondence task over and over again. And we do pretty okay
most of the time.
In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:53:05 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think very
often a comparison is intended. Bahais certainly do claimthat the Bahai
faith is more complete, deeper, more progressed, etc.than other
religions.
A comparison may be PERCEIVED
Gilberto:
**
What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble
descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the
Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when
understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the
book because there is nothing at
In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:59:57 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Or it would
be consistent to say "Both Islam and the Bahai faith makecertain
reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women." But to saythat the
Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:51:47 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:59:57 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Or it would be consistent to say Both Islam and the Bahai faith make
certain reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:30:42 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, Gilberto,
At 12:35 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
No. You are right. It's not automatic. It can vary with context. But in
order to survive in the world, on a regular basis we have to able to
reliably perform this
Dear Khazeh,
I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask
simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with
alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the
specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what
I'm
Gilberto wrote:
I think Muslims and Bahais and all people of faith and conscience can
work to improve the position of women in their societies.
Yes, Gilberto, you are correct in what you have written. This we must do.
We, whatever religion we espouse, must work for the betterment of humankind.
Gilberto wrote:
So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are
the same? Or are they different?
Dear Gilberto,
The situations are entirely different. During the time of Muhammad the
religion of God itself was to be protected through jihad against those who
attacked Muslims
Hi, Gilberto,
At 07:13 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
You just reminded me of a joke I heard once. I'll include it at the bottom.
I have actually told that one myself. ;-)
Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a
pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off
Gilberto:In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.J:imo, the Baha'i view is that the aggressor's intentions are important. If the purpose of theaggression is religiously based (i.e. you are a Baha'i and I hate your prophet so I want tokill you), we are not allowed to fight back
Gilberto,
At 09:45 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.
If I may, it seems to me as though you are making at least two assumptions
which I would not make:
1. God's Will does not change.
2. Logic can be considered apart from the assumptions of
Dear Khazeh,
I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask
simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with
alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the
specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what
I'm
Now I would say it was the Will of God [more or less] that the spread of
Islam be in that way. Why the more or less?
Because I do believe the Primacy of the Imam 'Ali was not recognized
universally and remained unimplemented [the Imam 'Ali was chosen as the
Fourth Caliph]...and that had enormous
So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people
as described?
Dear Gilberto
I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which
you post on these important themes. I just wish to say that I appreciate
your time and effort in sorting out these
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:03 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people
as described?
Dear Gilberto
I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which
you post on these important
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For example,
Bahais say that an important principle of the faith isgender equality. But
when I discover all the different ways that theBahai faith makes
distinctions between men and women it
In a message dated 12/21/2004 10:17:55 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear Scott,
What are you talking about? The Hands did not make any decision that
women could not serve. That had already been determined by Abdu'l-Baha and
Shoghi Effendi.
I agree to
Gilberto:
Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an
explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten
non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly
what is found in the writings of the Bab.
Patti:
I agree that there is a problem
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:17:09 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from
the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai
concept of righteous warfare.
Those aren't holy wars, Gilberto. A Holy
To just say we believe in absolute gender equality
and leave it at that seems dishonest.
Dear Gilberto,
Somehow you have a knack for overstating the Baha'i position so that it no
longers resembles anything we actually said. The term 'absolute' is yours,
not ours. What we are arguing is that
In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:33:21 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear Scott.
A lot of people.It was understood that the
Hands were not infallible, nor was their authorityall that clear in
terms of the Covenant.If they had attempted to do something which
Our dear brother Gilberto
[I say our dear Gilberto because in the Name of God I feel very close to you
and your essay today [the first in the thread of Clarification and
Progressive Revelation and Peace] is quite a remarkable one. With every
letter of yours [addressed to my lowly self personally
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:08:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is
gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways
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