Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;584122 Wrote: In engineering terms, when we say 'noise' we don't imply audible noise (in other words, noise is not associated with sound). For example, if you're watching a movie that is streaming from Netflix, and if there are interferences, you may notice that every now and then the picture quality degrades and it becomes visibly pixelated (meaning, the objects on the screen get distorted and start looking chunky and as if made from Lego blocks). This phenomenon is termed 'noise'. It interferes with the original signal, distorts it, and disrupts our viewing enjoyment. There isn't anything audible about that kind of noise. In a similar fashion, interferences that may occur while transporting digital bits that carry audio signal will inevitably result in the degradation of the sound quality. And that will interrupt our enjoyment of the playback. We talk about the signal-to-noise ratio, not sound-to-noise ratio. Do you get it now? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about output (the sound waves emanating from the speakers/headphones being faithful to the input). In good audio systems, this faithfulness (or, fidelity, if you will) is pretty high. In shitty audio systems, not even close. It is trivial to prove that with a squeezebox there is no corruption of the bits - the process is bit-perfect. The digital TV analogy is not relevant. What does matter are two things: 1) accuracy of clock-recovery from the s/pdif stream which can cause jitter (the impact of this very much depends on the design of the entire DAC) 2) real electrical noise (RFI etc) that can travel between transport and DAC via the digital cabling or transport and amp via the mains wiring and disturb the working of the DAC/amp and appear at the speakers as noise/loss of detail / soundstage etc... There are of course other sources of interference, it's not just the transport. And sometimes this interference can be airborne. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;584243 Wrote: It is trivial to prove that with a squeezebox there is no corruption of the bits - the process is bit-perfect. The digital TV analogy is not relevant. What does matter are two things: 1) accuracy of clock-recovery from the s/pdif stream which can cause jitter (the impact of this very much depends on the design of the entire DAC) 2) real electrical noise (RFI etc) that can travel between transport and DAC via the digital cabling or transport and amp via the mains wiring and disturb the working of the DAC/amp and appear at the speakers as noise/loss of detail / soundstage etc... There are of course other sources of interference, it's not just the transport. And sometimes this interference can be airborne. Completely agree. In this particular case, while everything else remains the same, I am still experiencing substantial differences in the sound quality when switching from the Duet receiver transport to the Touch transport and then back to the Duet (it's one of those things that you can quite easily hear even if you're in the other room). Does that mean that, in the end, we're talking jitter? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;584293 Wrote: Completely agree. In this particular case, while everything else remains the same, I am still experiencing substantial differences in the sound quality when switching from the Duet receiver transport to the Touch transport and then back to the Duet (it's one of those things that you can quite easily hear even if you're in the other room). Does that mean that, in the end, we're talking jitter? I think we are talking jitter. The quality of the s/pdif waveform from the Touch is superior to that of the Duet so it is easier for the DAC to recover the clock accurately... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;584295 Wrote: I think we are talking jitter. The quality of the s/pdif waveform from the Touch is superior to that of the Duet so it is easier for the DAC to recover the clock accurately... Thanks Phil. That finally explains it (in my head, at least:) -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581590 Wrote: Now I want to reach out for the final 2% improvement, inching my way toward musical Nirvana. As a fellow Maggie fan - I'm diggin ya. Those babies lay it all bare! - If you havent done anything to your Maggies you can look for more than 2%! I dont know what your relationship with her is like, but, if you're not too squeamish I suggest hacking her crossovers and wires. Dont bark up the digital transport tree until you take care of your own. Dont get me wrong! I love the folks at Magnepan! They send me all kinds of tweaking hardware for free! They tend to be kind of old school in some ways. Not much for wires, inductors and caps. Thats ok. China (and the US)is cranking out a TON of awesome audiophile components these days, from tubes to caps. Great prices, all you need is a soldering iron and a little patience! Sure - I only spent $600 on my MMG's. I dont know what you have, but you would be surprised how accessible all this stuff is! -- earwaxer9 System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter, HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords, Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable. earwaxer9's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39527 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;584295 Wrote: I think we are talking jitter. The quality of the s/pdif waveform from the Touch is superior to that of the Duet so it is easier for the DAC to recover the clock accurately... Yes, although a DAC that cannot attenuate the jitter from the Duet sufficiently to render it inaudible is very poorly designed. That said, there are plenty of poorly designed DACs out there, so it's possible. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Introducing that much jitter that someone can quite easily hear the difference even if you're in the other room is a new Superlative i sadly never came across. Impressive! -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;583990 Wrote: Now I'm really confused. When you said Exact same thing is happening to the sound when you upgrade a component that lowers the noise floor. All audio components inevitably introduce noise into the sound, so the trick is finding and matching the components that minimize this noise. The noise masks the original signal, so you end up losing a lot of the musical detail you weren't talking about audible noise?? If this noise is inaudible, how can it possibly make a difference in audio reproduction? In engineering terms, when we say 'noise' we don't imply audible noise (in other words, noise is not associated with sound). For example, if you're watching a movie that is streaming from Netflix, and if there are interferences, you may notice that every now and then the picture quality degrades and it becomes visibly pixelated (meaning, the objects on the screen get distorted and start looking chunky and as if made from Lego blocks). This phenomenon is termed 'noise'. It interferes with the original signal, distorts it, and disrupts our viewing enjoyment. There isn't anything audible about that kind of noise. In a similar fashion, interferences that may occur while transporting digital bits that carry audio signal will inevitably result in the degradation of the sound quality. And that will interrupt our enjoyment of the playback. We talk about the signal-to-noise ratio, not sound-to-noise ratio. Do you get it now? opaqueice;583990 Wrote: Except we can be absolutely certain that doesn't happen. You can check by recording the digital stream as a computer file - ones and zeros - and comparing it to the original file or CD rip. I've done that, as have many others, and the files are absolutely and perfectly identical, down to every single bit. If you're getting bit errors in a digital transport, it's broken. The level of jitter in a decent digital source (anything made by slim devices, for example) connected by a reasonable cable ($5 at Radioshack, for example) is far below the level that could cause bit errors. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about output (the sound waves emanating from the speakers/headphones being faithful to the input). In good audio systems, this faithfulness (or, fidelity, if you will) is pretty high. In shitty audio systems, not even close. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 20/10/10 19:20, magiccarpetride wrote: In a similar fashion, interferences that may occur while transporting digital bits that carry audio signal will inevitably result in the degradation of the sound quality. And that will interrupt our enjoyment of the playback. Er, yes, but as opaqueice has already pointed out, opaqueice;583990 Wrote: Except we can be absolutely certain that doesn't happen. All you have to do is record the digital stream as a computer file - ones and zeros - and compare it to the original file. I've done that, as have many others, and they are absolutely identical, down to every single bit. If you're getting bit errors in a digital transport, it's broken. The level of jitter in a decent digital source connected by a reasonable cable ($5 at Radioshack, for example) is far below the level that could cause bit errors. We talk about the signal-to-noise ratio, not sound-to-noise ratio. Do you get it now? Right, if we assume that the bits get to the input of the DAC correctly then SNR can only be an issue in the analogue stage of the DAC. So, I would conclude that the reason for your perceived improvement in sound quality after switching from Duet to Touch is *not* due to SNR. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;584128 Wrote: Right, if we assume that the bits get to the input of the DAC correctly then SNR can only be an issue in the analogue stage of the DAC. This entire thread is questioning the validity of that assumption. Read the title of the thread again: How much can transport mechanism affect SQ? If the bits get transmitted to the DAC correctly regardless of the digital transport mechanism, all digital transports in the world would sound exactly the same. That, however, is not the case (or, we're here arguing whether that's the case). Different transport mechanisms seem to affect the fidelity of the bits that are getting transferred into the DAC. Robin Bowes;584128 Wrote: So, I would conclude that the reason for your perceived improvement in sound quality after switching from Duet to Touch is *not* due to SNR. All right, WHAT is it due to then? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 20/10/10 22:14, magiccarpetride wrote: Robin Bowes;584128 Wrote: So, I would conclude that the reason for your perceived improvement in sound quality after switching from Duet to Touch is *not* due to SNR. All right, WHAT is it due to then? Well, as I'm sure you're aware, the S/PDIF data stream is a biphase mark code - a form of Manchester encoding. So, the clock signal is embedded in the signal and must be recovered from the encoded data. If the data stream is anything other than perfect then there is the possibility that the timing data is not recovered correctly - a phenonenon known as jitter. Jitter is often blamed for differences between digital audio components. However, there is a lot of speculation over the level of jitter that may be audible. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;583912 Wrote: Sorry, I wasn't clear in my explanation. It is not that the signal increases; it stays the same. What's happening is that the noise decreases, resulting in the overall impression that the signal is now clearer, as if it had increased and became louder (even though it hadn't). This is similar to how experts are restoring old paintings, Rembrandt for example. They only remove the dirt and debris that accumulates on the surface of the canvas. They don't add anything to the painting itself. However, by the virtue of removing the muck, the painting looks clearer and brighter. Exact same thing is happening to the sound when you upgrade a component that lowers the noise floor. All audio components inevitably introduce noise into the sound, so the trick is finding and matching the components that minimize this noise. The noise masks the original signal, so you end up losing a lot of the musical detail. How exactly is changing digital sources going to affect the noise floor? The digital source isn't in the analog chain. Any noise in the digital signal itself can only manifest as jitter, not as analog noise. The only way I can see a different digital source could change the noise floor is if the noise is being transmitted by the digital cable, or possibly through power cords etc. If so electrically isolating the digital source from the analog components should fix the problem. If you use an optical connection like Toslink there's no electrical connection at all. No need to buy an expensive new source. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;583941 Wrote: How exactly is changing digital sources going to affect the noise floor? The digital source isn't in the analog chain. Any noise in the digital signal itself can only manifest as jitter, not as analog noise. The only way I can see a different digital source could change the noise floor is if the noise is being transmitted by the digital cable, or possibly through power cords etc. If so electrically isolating the digital source from the analog components should fix the problem. If you use an optical connection like Toslink there's no electrical connection at all. No need to buy an expensive new source. Again, you misunderstood me. By 'noise' I didn't mean audible noise, I meant noise as in corrupting the pristine source signal information. Like if you have a stream of bits (zeros and ones), arranged in a certain order, and then by the process of transmitting them from one device to another device, you mess the order up. That's the noise I'm talking about. A poorly engineered and poorly built component can tamper with the original signal by the virtue of having unhealthy dose of tolerance to a large margin of error. The end result is that the output does not match the input, and what you get is music reproduction that is lying through its teeth. You don't want that to happen. You want to get to the point where the output (i.e. the wave forms emanating from the speakers/headphones) are as closely faithful to the waveforms as they were generated at the point when the physical sound hit the membranes of the recording microphones. This is the reason why lousy audio components sound so shitty -- they introduce a lot of noise by thwarting and deforming the original signal. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;583944 Wrote: Again, you misunderstood me. By 'noise' I didn't mean audible noise, I meant noise as in corrupting the pristine source signal information. Now I'm really confused. When you said Exact same thing is happening to the sound when you upgrade a component that lowers the noise floor. All audio components inevitably introduce noise into the sound, so the trick is finding and matching the components that minimize this noise. The noise masks the original signal, so you end up losing a lot of the musical detail you weren't talking about audible noise?? If this noise is inaudible, how can it possibly make a difference in audio reproduction? Like if you have a stream of bits (zeros and ones), arranged in a certain order, and then by the process of transmitting them from one device to another device, you mess the order up. Except we can be absolutely certain that doesn't happen. All you have to do is record the digital stream as a computer file - ones and zeros - and compare it to the original file. I've done that, as have many others, and they are absolutely identical, down to every single bit. If you're getting bit errors in a digital transport, it's broken. The level of jitter in a decent digital source connected by a reasonable cable ($5 at Radioshack, for example) is far below the level that could cause bit errors. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;581734 Wrote: Theres many threads on the Audiophile forums which testify to the Transporter being a better transport...at least on paper - but not by anything other than a small margin, but the conscensus (to my reading) is that it is NOT worth the extra cost. Some folk on these forums (John Swenson I think it was?)even prefer the Touch as a Transport. Yup. And regarding your Caiman (I own one and love it),over on the ArtOfSound forum (I've seen you there ;)) one of the guys runs his Transporter INTO his Caiman as he likes the improvement over the Transporter the Caiman brings. Its subjective you see...but the Transporter HAS been compared to the Touch as a digital source, and its a pretty close run thing. Id swap my Touch for a Transporter in a second...but not because of sound quality reasons...it would look better in my rack!:) Would I pay $$$ extra for that no. Would you? Do you use balanced outputs? I dont, do you? Will you be using the Transporters digital inputs? Nope, the Caiman has plenty. Does pride of ownership matter more than value for money and absolute comparative sound quality? I'm a Scot, so value for money is more important! So, my $0.02 worth.. DEFO change from a Duet, you'll never get the best from your Flacs using that. My opinion? Buy a Touch - the SPDIF out has been measured (and listened to) as being EXTREMELY good and very very close to the Transporter. Then mod the hell out of your Caiman (see AOS), and enjoy the music. Gaz. Hey Gaz, I am happy to report that I've followed your advice and now I'm the proud owner of the Touch. Thanks! I don't have a way to compare my Touch to the Transporter, but now I'm mighty curious. The upgrade from Duet to Touch has been a monumental improvement. It really blew my socks off, it was much more dramatic than I've ever anticipated, even in my wildest dreams. Would spending extra 2 grand and upgrading from Touch to Transporter impress me as much as the upgrade from Duet to Touch did? Don't know, but if it would, I think it would be worth sticking my neck out and remortgaging the house. Two things I've noticed that a high quality digital transport brings: 1. Lowered noise (increases the signal. reduces the noise, and that results in a very, very audible overall improvement) 2. Lowered graininess. Everything now sounds super silky, smooth, like dripping honey or high quality melted chocolate. The bass never sounded deeper and firmer, and yet at the same time cleaner and more melodious. Have any of you guys tried Soundcheck's mods for the Touch yet? I've tried only one (disabled FLAC on the Touch and instead I'm feeding PCM from FLAC from my computer). Huge improvement, especially on the 24-bit material. What other mods will make it sound smoother with the lower noise floor? Oh, and one more thing -- my Caiman DAC loves the Touch. They're best buddies now! -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;583762 Wrote: Two things I've noticed that a high quality digital transport brings: 1. Lowered noise (increases the signal. reduces the noise, and that results in a very, very audible overall improvement) Which is it - increased signal or reduced noise? They're rather different. If the signal level increased when you switched digital sources, something is wrong. If the noise changed, perhaps it's being transmitted by the cable. If so, switching to Toslink may help. A better digital transport could in principle improve the sound by reducing jitter, and therefore jitter induced distortion - if the DAC it's feeding isn't capable of proper jitter attenuation. That's about it. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582925 Wrote: Do I hear more information on the main system? I'm trying, but I can't think of any sense in which that's true. It's simply that music has more impact, more clarity, a greater sense of space - it simply sounds much more like it does live. There you go, you've just described your experience of more musical information. So I'm relieved to hear that you haven't wasted your money and that, indeed, you have gained deeper insight into the music material you're listening to. Good job. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582612 Wrote: To me, room treatment is analogous to messing with various curtains. Some curtains will make the room more shady, some will make it more bright etc. But essentially all the objects in the room still remain visible. It is just the matter of personal preference that dictates how bright or soft a lighting you prefer. The important thing is that the room _interacts_ with the music and changes the characteristics of the music on the route from your speakers to your ears. If you have crappy sound coming out of the speakers then room treatment can't cure that, but a crappy room or poor speaker placement can seriously degrade the quality of the sound before it gets to your ears. And in that case you can keep upgrading your equipment until the cows come home (to provide milk for the cheese, of course) and it won't do any good until you fix the room. Or to use your analogy, imagine those objects in the room are fine paintings. How much you see in them depends very much on the quality of the light in the room, which is dictated in part by the curtains. If the curtains are too dark (or too light) then you can't enjoy the paintings as much, even though the paintings are still the same objects in the room. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
I've never seen so many pointless analogies used in a single thread before without also involving a descent to Godwin's law ;) -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582664 Wrote: Where's the cheese?? Seriously, I agree with Phil - next to the recording and possibly the speakers, the room has the biggest effect on sound. I don't understand your analogy (which objects are present) in the slightest. When I listen to music on my squeezebox radio - hardly an audiophile grade product - I hear all the same things I hear on my $10K main system. It's just that everything sounds better on the main system. If that's the case, I'm sorry to inform you that you've wasted ten grand. A progressively better audio system is indeed better because it progressively reveals more musical information. If you hear all the same things on your $10K system as you hear on your $1K system, you've just foolishly pissed away $9K! Any time I've upgraded my audio system I've ended up hearing ten times more details. That's why I kept upgrading. If it wasn't for that exhilarating experience, I would've never spent an extra penny on audio. Again, room treatment is meaningless the moment you put the headphones on. In my experience, a good, high quality system is very resilient to speaker positioning/room treatment. Yes, you can degrade the soundstage clarity with sloppy speaker placement, and yes, you can and up with a messier than necessary bass, but still, good system will continue delivering amazing illusion of music under various sub-optimal conditions. If you have a system that delivers acceptable performance only under the most optimal conditions, and if you can coerce it into sounding like crap by the virtue of making minor changes in your room, I'm afraid your system is pretty feeble to begin with. Go back to the drawing board, and figure out how to build a more resilient system, that's all I can tell you. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
aubuti;582746 Wrote: Or to use your analogy, imagine those objects in the room are fine paintings. How much you see in them depends very much on the quality of the light in the room, which is dictated in part by the curtains. If the curtains are too dark (or too light) then you can't enjoy the paintings as much, even though the paintings are still the same objects in the room. The above is true (as far as cheesy analogies go), and I agree. What I do not agree with is when people claim that, by treating your room toward achieving some optimal conditions, you'll end up discovering that there are more paintings on the walls than you've initially been aware of. I don't think that kind of magic is possible to achieve with careful room treatment. It is, however, possible to achieve that kind of a breakthrough discoveries with judiciously upgrading and balancing your hardware/software combo that comprises your audio chain. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
bluegaspode;582586 Wrote: Though you cannot compare wine testing with clean glasses against having an overpriced DAC in your living room. It's like drinking from a glass that has been drunken from for two weeks without washing. So gone are the nuances that might even have been measured a clean room ? Or to put it differently: One not only has to find the best wine, but the best wine that still tastes good in your muddy glass. Just look at those rooms: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=41527 How can we speak of fine nuances here ? And results that are comparable among different users ? OK, you've totally lost me there. Muddy glass? What's that supposed to illustrate? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
A progressively better audio system is indeed better because it progressively reveals more musical information. You started the thread by asking, whether the digital out from a Touch or Transporter would make a significant change. And people now turn into telling you that before thinking about the subtle differences of the transport (if there are at all), it's more important to look first into your room. The changes the transport will make to your music in this scenario are s subtle (if there are any at all), that every reflection that is bounced back from your walls, curtains and windows will have much more impact on the sound due to interference than the transport itself. My muddy glass for wine is your listening room for music. (Sorry for my english, maybe 'muddy' is not expressed right - I'm just thinking of a glass that hasn't been washed for a while and what impact it will have on the best wine there is). -- bluegaspode Big Screen for great Boxes available now at your AppStore: *'Squeezebox + iPad = SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com) *! Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? = why not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827) Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? = why not try my 'Headphone Switcher Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139) Setup: 1x SB-Controller+Receiver (Duet), 1xSB-Boom. 2xSB-Radio Server (7.5.1) running on SheevaPlug (Ubuntu) with attached Western Digital MyBook Essential. bluegaspode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31651 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582826 Wrote: If that's the case, I'm sorry to inform you that you've wasted ten grand. A progressively better audio system is indeed better because it progressively reveals more musical information. If you hear all the same things on your $10K system as you hear on your $1K system, you've just foolishly pissed away $9K! Any time I've upgraded my audio system I've ended up hearing ten times more details. That's why I kept upgrading. If it wasn't for that exhilarating experience, I would've never spent an extra penny on audio. Again, room treatment is meaningless the moment you put the headphones on. In my experience, a good, high quality system is very resilient to speaker positioning/room treatment. Yes, you can degrade the soundstage clarity with sloppy speaker placement, and yes, you can and up with a messier than necessary bass, but still, good system will continue delivering amazing illusion of music under various sub-optimal conditions. If you have a system that delivers acceptable performance only under the most optimal conditions, and if you can coerce it into sounding like crap by the virtue of making minor changes in your room, I'm afraid your system is pretty feeble to begin with. Go back to the drawing board, and figure out how to build a more resilient system, that's all I can tell you. In recording studios and mastering suites where decisions are made about how recordings will sound when we buy them, more money is spent on acoustic treatments than is spent on the technical equipment. This is because it is (generally) done once and HAS to be right. What we listen to at home is a replay system comprised of the speakers and the room. The two act together. You cannot seperate them. The behaviour of speakers is determined by the room they sit in. You cannot just hear the speakers. The closest you can get is to use nearfield monitors to try an isolate the direct sound from the room reflected sound...but no mastering engineer would relay on those alone, because they are atypical of the sound consumer will experience in domestic environments. The room has a MASSIVE impact on the sound. Even the best speakers in the world (?) are not immune form the interaction with the room - it really is simple physics. Humans are designed/evolved on purpose to recognise and respond to reflected sounds and ambient spatial clues from those reflections. Room correction (I prefer DRC as it gives benefits such as time/phase alignment that bass traps etc don't even touch) makes the biggest difference to making the music sound good for me - once you get past some arbitary level of basic competency in the source/DAC/Amp/Speakers. I've heard a £120k system sound like cr*p in a bad (untreated) room and a £1k system sound superb with £2.5k of DRC inserted in it. YMMV of course. Just giving an alternate perspective. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582836 Wrote: In recording studios and mastering suites where decisions are made about how recordings will sound when we buy them, more money is spent on acoustic treatments than is spent on the technical equipment. This is because it is (generally) done once and HAS to be right. What we listen to at home is a replay system comprised of the speakers and the room. The two act together. You cannot seperate them. The behaviour of speakers is determined by the room they sit in. You cannot just hear the speakers. The closest you can get is to use nearfield monitors to try and isolate the direct sound from the room reflected sound...but no mastering engineer would relay on those alone, because they are atypical of the sound consumer will experience in domestic environments. The room has a MASSIVE impact on the sound. Even the best speakers in the world (?) are not immune from the interaction with the room - it really is simple physics. Humans are designed/evolved on purpose to recognise and respond to reflected sounds and ambient spatial clues from those reflections. Room correction (I prefer DRC as it gives benefits such as time/phase alignment that bass traps etc don't even touch) makes the biggest difference to making the music sound good for me - once you get past some arbitary level of basic competency in the source/DAC/Amp/Speakers. I've heard a £120k system sound like cr*p in a bad (untreated) room and a £1k system sound superb with £2.5k of DRC inserted in it. YMMV of course. Just giving an alternate perspective. No argument here. As a matter of fact, I grew up with this bit of common wisdom. And, of course, I've experimented with speaker placement/room treatment like crazy. So I am aware of the very audible differences one can generate when messing with the room and the speaker placement. Where I tend to part ways with the commonly accepted wisdom is the bit that states that speaker placement etc. is where one stands to gain/lose the most. In my experience, I was always able to gain more improvements by carefully upgrading my audio chain, then I was able to get by rearranging my speaker positions. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
bluegaspode;582833 Wrote: You started the thread by asking, whether the digital out from a Touch or Transporter would make a significant change. And people now turn into telling you that before thinking about the subtle differences of the transport (if there are at all), it's more important to look first into your room. The changes the transport will make to your music in this scenario are s subtle (if there are any at all), that every reflection that is bounced back from your walls, curtains and windows will have much more impact on the sound due to interference than the transport itself. My muddy glass for wine is your listening room for music. (Sorry for my english, maybe 'muddy' is not expressed right - I'm just thinking of a glass that hasn't been washed for a while and what impact it will have on the best wine there is). Ah, I get you now. Thanks. All of the above elaboration does not apply to headphones. I'm curious whether good headphones may reveal the differences in the Transporter/Touch digital transport. How's that for a more pointed question? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582826 Wrote: If that's the case, I'm sorry to inform you that you've wasted ten grand. Well, it sounds as good to me than any other I've heard, bar none, and better than nearly all. That's why I picked it after several years of (intermittently) auditioning high-end systems with a test disk of tracks I knew very well. A progressively better audio system is indeed better because it progressively reveals more musical information. If you hear all the same things on your $10K system as you hear on your $1K system, you've just foolishly pissed away $9K! Actually the radio retails for $179. Do I hear more information on the main system? I'm trying, but I can't think of any sense in which that's true. It's simply that music has more impact, more clarity, a greater sense of space - it simply sounds much more like it does live. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582411 Wrote: Well I obviously don't agree :D. Anyway they are the ones designing audio gear and developing new technologies for it, so their collective opinion is pretty important. If you think there's something missing from the approach, they're the ones you'll have to convince to change it. That's why I think it's a bad idea when audiophiles obsess over what I believe are irrelevant details, like differences between DACs, when there are huge glaring problems like room acoustics, speaker distortion, and dynamic compression of recordings to deal with. The boy who cried wolf. I don't think that all sound engineers consider differences between DACs to be irrelevant details. There are engineers out there with a pretty decent balance between their right and their left brain hemispheres, and these are the people who bless us with good products. It is the overtly cerebral types who are ham-fisted and only appreciate the crude, crass factors (such as the room treatment, for example). There are many subtleties to be had in the world of sound reproduction. If I may use one more analogy here (I am aware that my quota for analogies has been spent long time ago): it's like consuming varieties of fine wine. There are infinite nuances and slight differences in how different types of wine, made from different harvests from different regions, taste. An earnest scientist/engineer cannot measure even the first 1% of those nuances. opaqueice;582411 Wrote: That ought to be able to happen regardless of what kind of system you're listening to. If you can only enjoy music on some super-audiophile grade vinyl rig, you've got a big problem. In the right moment, an old staticy radio can sound magical... Yes, same as when dying of thirst in a sun scorched desert, even a glass of luke warm, muddy water can taste magical, life saving. But why would I willingly go for such extreme conditions, when I'm blessed with optimal conditions for enjoying music right now? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
I think you are allowed one more analogy... preferably cheese-based! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582550 Wrote: I don't think that all sound engineers consider differences between DACs to be irrelevant details. There are engineers out there with a pretty decent balance between their right and their left brain hemispheres, and these are the people who bless us with good products. It is the overtly cerebral types who are ham-fisted and only appreciate the crude, crass factors (such as the room treatment, for example). There are many subtleties to be had in the world of sound reproduction. If I may use one more analogy here (I am aware that my quota for analogies has been spent long time ago): it's like consuming varieties of fine wine. There are infinite nuances and slight differences in how different types of wine, made from different harvests from different regions, taste. An earnest scientist/engineer cannot measure even the first 1% of those nuances. Yes, same as when dying of thirst in a sun scorched desert, even a glass of luke warm, muddy water can taste magical, life saving. But why would I willingly go for such extreme conditions, when I'm blessed with optimal conditions for enjoying music right now? I'm not sure why you think room treatment is crass, since IME it is the single biggest improvement you can make, once you have a basic system that works well... care to expand? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582550 Wrote: There are infinite nuances and slight differences in how different types of wine, made from different harvests from different regions, taste. An earnest scientist/engineer cannot measure even the first 1% of those nuances. Though you cannot compare wine testing with clean glasses against having an overpriced DAC in your living room. It's like drinking from a glass that has been drunken from for two weeks without washing. So gone are the nuances that might even have been measured a clean room ? Or to put it differently: One not only has to find the best wine, but the best wine that still tastes good in your muddy glass. Just look at those rooms: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=41527 How can we speak of fine nuances here ? And results that are comparable among different users ? -- bluegaspode Big Screen for great Boxes available now at your AppStore: *'Squeezebox + iPad = SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com) *! Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? = why not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827) Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? = why not try my 'Headphone Switcher Applet' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139) Setup: 1x SB-Controller+Receiver (Duet), 1xSB-Boom. 2xSB-Radio Server (7.5.1) running on SheevaPlug (Ubuntu) with attached Western Digital MyBook Essential. bluegaspode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31651 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582569 Wrote: I'm not sure why you think room treatment is crass, since IME it is the single biggest improvement you can make, once you have a basic system that works well... care to expand? To me, room treatment is analogous to messing with various curtains. Some curtains will make the room more shady, some will make it more bright etc. But essentially all the objects in the room still remain visible. It is just the matter of personal preference that dictates how bright or soft a lighting you prefer. The actual audio components (such as your source, your amplification, your augmentation of the sound) basically dictate what 'objects' will be present in your room. Without these components working properly, you can keep treating your room till the cows come home, nothing will magically emerge in it if it hasn't already been placed in there. A small change in how you convert the digital signal to analog may reveal lots of hidden details, which is analogous to bringing a pile brand new objects into the room. How are you going to now expose those objects is a matter of taste, as you do your speaker placement/room treatment. None of that, of course, matters one bit the moment you put your headphones on. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
There was no cheese in that analogy. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582200 Wrote: Actually not quite. The boutique DAC (which I still have by the way - anyone want to buy it? :D) distorted audibly on certain high volume passages when connected to a particular amp I used to have. Impedance mismatch, I assume (actually I'm fairly sure, I did some experiments). The SB3 DAC produces a level of display-brightness correlated noise that I found intolerable in my (unusual) active system. *But playing music while functioning properly, yes, they all sound identical.* Sorry, but after reading that and some other posts elsewhere I call bullshit. Knock yourself out buddy, but as we all hear diffrently and our brains work differently nobody can come on and speak for anyone else other than themselves. This hifi game is all subjective, hell your system can even sound different depending on what mood your in! And yeah..its probably measurable ;) varying alpha and theta waves (state) in the brain can affect the bodys function physically. I've noticed your one for sweeping generalisations, quoting in your experience as a way of ratifying your corrections of other people. Hows this for one? Theres something wrong with your ears or your just enjoying yourself too much on Hifi forums. no more from me. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;582245 Wrote: Sorry, but after reading that and some other posts elsewhere I call bullshit. Knock yourself out buddy, but as we all hear diffrently and our brains work differently nobody can come on and speak for anyone else other than themselves. You asked: They sounded exactly the same to you I take it? I replied: ...playing music while functioning properly, yes, they all sound identical. How do you get from that me speaking for anyone else? I'm answering your question, which was specifically how they sound to me. I've noticed your one for sweeping generalisations, quoting in your experience as a way of ratifying your corrections of other people. My sweeping generalisations were several specific examples of my own tests, including two that actually -did- sound different? Hows this for one? Theres something wrong with your ears or your just enjoying yourself too much on Hifi forums. The last time my hearing was tested it was above normal for my age (mid 30s). I've always been able to hear the noise CRT TV sets make (that's around 15kHz at a fairly low volume), which few other people seem to be able to, and I played music (mostly classical and jazz) regularly from age 4 until my mid-20s. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582250 Wrote: You asked: They sounded exactly the same to you I take it? I replied: ...playing music while functioning properly, yes, they all sound identical. How do you get from that me speaking for anyone else? I'm answering your question, which was specifically how they sound to me. YOU ARE TELLING OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO HEAR DIFFERENCES THAT THEY ARE WRONG BASED ON YOUR OWN OBSERVATIONS. I HOPED STATING THE OBVIOUS MIGHT HAVE CAUGHT YOUR ATTENTION? My sweeping generalisations were several specific examples of my own tests, including two that actually -did- sound different? I dont believe your being completly sincere here, sorry. The last time my hearing was tested it was above normal for my age (mid 30s). I've always been able to hear the noise CRT TV sets make (that's around 15kHz at a fairly low volume), which few other people seem to be able to, and I played music (mostly classical and jazz) regularly from age 4 until my mid-20s. *I said that as your observations about sound quality betwen Dacs seem to make no sense whatsoever, sorry but thats how it reads. Hence the comment about maybe you just enjoy having fun on hifi forums. Nothing wrong with that my friend, but it isn't my idea of a good time. So no more from me on this. have fun :)* -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;582290 Wrote: [b]I said what I said as your observations about sound quality betwen Dacs seem to make no sense whatsoever, sorry but thats how it reads. You'll find many others that share my view. In fact my hunch is that scientists and engineers that work in fields related to audio would be pretty much unanimous in agreeing with me on this (with the obvious exception of some of those that sell highly priced audio components). So it's interesting that you're not even capable of accepting that I'm being serious -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582302 Wrote: You'll find many others that share my view, on this forum and elsewhere. In fact my hunch is that scientists and engineers that work in fields related to audio would be pretty much unanimous in agreeing with me on this (with the obvious exception of some of those that sell highly priced audio components). So it's interesting that you're not even capable of accepting that I'm being serious Hmnn...ok one more. your hunch is that scientists and engineers would be unanimous in agreeing with you? a BIT of a sweeping generalisation, no? :) ..dont you see the irony? :) You do sound as though you believe what your saying, so I accept your serious in that regard, its just what you are saying I dont take serious. But hey, each to their own isn;t that what they say? I'll agree to disagree if thats ok. Have a good one. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;582197 Wrote: Magiccarpetride.. c'mon relax man. dont try to change peoples opinions...waste of time. casting yourself in a bad light here buddy.. It's by design. I'm not trying to change peoples' opinions, just trying to get them to open up to a lively debate. No harm intended. Of course, in many circles it is considered rude and impolite to ask people to stop and think about something. Much more charming to enjoy other peoples' dogmas. If this is one of those awkward social situations, I'll take the full blame. Yes, I would like to ask the participants to stop toying with their dogmas and think instead. Bad manners? Sure, why not. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Kal Rubinson;582218 Wrote: You can fling as many analogies as you like; they prove nothing. You like that kind of sound and that's OK. I'm not trying to prove anything. Music and the art of sound is not science, so there's nothing to prove. It's merely an art form, devised for our enjoyment. Music and sound are also not sporting disciplines, so no one wins or loses in the end. There is nothing measurable about it, there's only a subjective experience of growing pleasure that one gets as one learns how to improve one's audio chain. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582302 Wrote: You'll find many others that share my view, on this forum and elsewhere. In fact my hunch is that scientists and engineers that work in fields related to audio would be pretty much unanimous in agreeing with me on this (with the obvious exception of some of those that sell highly priced audio components). So it's interesting that you're not even capable of accepting that I'm being serious It is my strongly biased opinion that scientists and engineers are the kind of people who lack certain finesse. Sue me. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582188 Wrote: Yeah - thanks for that sweeping generalization coupled with personal insult - I always love a constructive debate. Enjoy your (hideously overpriced and often unexceptional) artesan loaf/vinyl. Don't presume to know me. Breadmakers can make perfectly fine dough. It's what you do next that counts. May I remind you that this discussion thread is not about me, it's about the sound quality. Forget about my personality quirks and foibles, and focus on examining the factors that contribute to the heightened experience of the sound quality. Why toss the baby out with the bath water? Why not look more closely at what's going on? Not everything in life is measurable, especially when we're talking about such subtle things as the art of sound. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582334 Wrote: ... Why not look more closely at what's going on? Not everything in life is measurable, especially when we're talking about such subtle things as the art of sound. I agree with this, but it appeared that you were also trying to establish that there is some fundamental flaw in (good) digital. All I can say is that analogue has different flaws. They are still flaws. All reproduction methods are flawed. You happen to prefer one set of flaws, me another. That's fine, but you can't claim that analogue is inherently superior to good digital. I've owned and heard plenty of both and made my decision. It wasn't based purely on convenience!. Convenience was the icing on the cake (for me). -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 12/10/10 19:14, magiccarpetride wrote: It is my strongly biased opinion that scientists and engineers are the kind of people who lack certain finesse. Sue me. And: On 12/10/10 09:18, Gazjam wrote: I've noticed your one for sweeping generalisations, quoting in your experience as a way of ratifying your corrections of other people. Hows this for one? Theres something wrong with your ears or your just enjoying yourself too much on Hifi forums. no more from me. Don't people get upset when someone doesn't agree with them? :) R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 12/10/10 19:13, magiccarpetride wrote: Kal Rubinson;582218 Wrote: You can fling as many analogies as you like; they prove nothing. You like that kind of sound and that's OK. I'm not trying to prove anything. Music and the art of sound is not science, so there's nothing to prove. It's merely an art form, devised for our enjoyment. You can't lump music and audio reproduction together. Music is indeed an art form, that we all enjoy. However, hudio reproduction is an engineering discipline, based largely on science. Music and sound are also not sporting disciplines, so no one wins or loses in the end. There is nothing measurable about it, there's only a subjective experience of growing pleasure that one gets as one learns how to improve one's audio chain. I disagree that there is nothing measurable about it; there is actually a lot about sound and audio reproduction that is measurable. However, I don't believe measurement is everything. I agree with the rest of what you say here. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582336 Wrote: I agree with this, but it appeared that you were also trying to establish that there is some fundamental flaw in (good) digital. All I can say is that analogue has different flaws. They are still flaws. All reproduction methods are flawed. You happen to prefer one set of flaws, me another. That's fine, but you can't claim that analogue is inherently superior to good digital. I've owned and heard plenty of both and made my decision. It wasn't based purely on convenience!. Convenience was the icing on the cake (for me). Agreed. And that's precisely what I wrote early on in this thread. If you'd recall, I said that you can't have audio reproduction without introducing flaws into the process (i.e. distortion). There simply is no way out of that predicament. What we're debating here is the style of the distortion. It's the same as when discussing the pros and cons of guitar amplification. Some guitar players (myself included) prefer tube amplification, because it gives us the type of distortion that we feel is more pliable. I'm not a keen advocate of the tube amplification because I think it minimizes or eliminates distortion. To the contrary, it has tons of distortion, but in a good way. Solid state amplification is much less prone to distorting the signal, but some guitarists (myself included) find that type of amplification to lack soul. On the music reproduction front, some of us feel that good analog sounds more musical than good digital. It has more 'soul'. Can you measure the amount of soul that is findable in music reproduction? I bet you can't! (some scientifically minded souls on this forum would disagree, I'm sure). -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;582339 Wrote: Don't people get upset when someone doesn't agree with them? :) R. We all do, it's natural. But some people then manage to get over themselves and make the next step -- is there anything to be learned from this disagreement? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;582344 Wrote: You can't lump music and audio reproduction together. Music is indeed an art form, that we all enjoy. However, hudio reproduction is an engineering discipline, based largely on science. I don't see how are they different? Couldn't you equally well say that music, as an art form, is based on an engineering discipline (that is based largely on science), because you can't have quality musical instruments without engineering them carefully. If you look into any good instrument, you'll realize how much math and engineering must go into building one. It's the means toward the end. Don't confuse the utensils with the food. You don't eat utensils, you only use them as a means toward feeding yourself. It's the food you should enjoy, not the utensils. Same in the music reproduction -- don't obsess over the engineered part, go for the soul food. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;582344 Wrote: I disagree that there is nothing measurable about it; there is actually a lot about sound and audio reproduction that is measurable. However, I don't believe measurement is everything. I agree with the rest of what you say here. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ If you fall in love, is there anything measurable about it? Of course there is (like, your heart rate, the degree of perspiration, etc.) But are these measures relevant when trying to understand how much in love you are? -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 12/10/10 20:50, magiccarpetride wrote: Robin Bowes;582344 Wrote: You can't lump music and audio reproduction together. Music is indeed an art form, that we all enjoy. However, hudio reproduction is an engineering discipline, based largely on science. I don't see how are they different? Couldn't you equally well say that music, as an art form, is based on an engineering discipline (that is based largely on science), because you can't have quality musical instruments without engineering them carefully. If you look into any good instrument, you'll realize how much math and engineering must go into building one. No, you can't - they are completely different. Music can and does exist without instruments. It exists in the minds of those who have heard it. It exists on the pages of a score. As you say, don't confuse the utensils with the food. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 12/10/10 20:54, magiccarpetride wrote: Robin Bowes;582344 Wrote: I disagree that there is nothing measurable about it; there is actually a lot about sound and audio reproduction that is measurable. However, I don't believe measurement is everything. I agree with the rest of what you say here. If you fall in love, is there anything measurable about it? Of course there is (like, your heart rate, the degree of perspiration, etc.) But are these measures relevant when trying to understand how much in love you are? We are talking about measuring audio reproduction, not measuring music, hence your (very clever) analogy is flawed. Some of the best performances I have in my library are some of the oldest and worst sounding (eg. Rachmaninov playing Rachmaninov, recorded in the 1930s). My enjoyment of the performance is a different thing to my appreciation of the quality of the audio reproduction. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;582388 Wrote: On 12/10/10 20:54, magiccarpetride wrote: Robin Bowes;582344 Wrote: I disagree that there is nothing measurable about it; there is actually a lot about sound and audio reproduction that is measurable. However, I don't believe measurement is everything. I agree with the rest of what you say here. If you fall in love, is there anything measurable about it? Of course there is (like, your heart rate, the degree of perspiration, etc.) But are these measures relevant when trying to understand how much in love you are? We are talking about measuring audio reproduction, not measuring music, hence your (very clever) analogy is flawed. Some of the best performances I have in my library are some of the oldest and worst sounding (eg. Rachmaninov playing Rachmaninov, recorded in the 1930s). My enjoyment of the performance is a different thing to my appreciation of the quality of the audio reproduction. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ Touche! -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582333 Wrote: It is my strongly biased opinion that scientists and engineers are the kind of people who lack certain finesse. Sue me. Well I obviously don't agree :D. Anyway they are the ones designing audio gear and developing new technologies for it, so their collective opinion is pretty important. If you think there's something missing from the approach, they're the ones you'll have to convince to change it. That's why I think it's a bad idea when audiophiles obsess over what I believe are irrelevant details, like differences between DACs, when there are huge glaring problems like room acoustics, speaker distortion, and dynamic compression of recordings to deal with. The boy who cried wolf. magiccarpetride;582367 Wrote: If you fall in love, is there anything measurable about it? Of course there is (like, your heart rate, the degree of perspiration, etc.) But are these measures relevant when trying to understand how much in love you are? That ought to be able to happen regardless of what kind of system you're listening to. If you can only enjoy music on some super-audiophile grade vinyl rig, you've got a big problem. In the right moment, an old staticy radio can sound magical... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581926 Wrote: Thus there is a consensus that digital sound reproduction is inferior to analog sound reproduction. No there isn't. You prefer the sound of analogue. That's fine. For example, many people like to listen to 24/96 vinyl rips on high-end (?) digital gear because it captures the euphonic distortions of vinyl replay very accurately. Nothing wrong with that - it's a taste choice. Too many people fall into the trap of believing that all analogue is intrinsically better - this despite the fact that what they are listening to often has digital in it somewhere. Bought any vinyl records recorded, mastered or cut in the last 20 years? Well recorded and mastered digital can sound better than vinyl. The converse can also be true. Now that recording engineers know how to operate and assess the digital chain properly (and it only took them 20 years!) there is no longer any basis to claim that digital always sounds inferior. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;581882 Wrote: In my opinion, if you can tell the difference between it and a decent reference DAC (the one in the touch will do as an example), it is distorting the sound. DACs shouldn't color the sound at all, and the differences between any two decent reference DACs are small enough to be inaudible. I'm a bit confused here sorry! could you define decent reference dac...? Also, are you saying all decent Dacs should sound the same and if one sounds different its because its adding unwelcome distortion? Why does, say, a Weiss Dac sound different from, say, the touch analogue outs? thanks. :) -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;582033 Wrote: I'm a bit confused here sorry! could you define decent reference dac...? For example, the one in the touch. Or if you want one with a standard digital input and a lower noise floor, take the Benchmark DAC1. Also, are you saying all decent Dacs should sound the same and if one sounds different its because its adding unwelcome distortion? Yes, I believe that's the case. I'm always subject to changing my opinion given evidence, however. Why does, say, a Weiss Dac sound different from, say, the touch analogue outs? thanks. :) Well, first I'd like to be certain that it really does. That is, I'd like to see someone pick it out in a blind, level matched test while playing music (rather than test tones or silence turned up loud enough to hear the noise floor). If that turns out to be possible (which I'm skeptical of), the next stage would be to figure out what's wrong with one of them :). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582061 Wrote: Well, first I'd like to be certain that it really does. That is, I'd like to see someone pick it out in a blind, level matched test while playing music (rather than test tones or silence turned up loud enough to hear the noise floor). If that turns out to be possible (which I'm skeptical of), the next stage would be to figure out what's wrong with one of them :). Is it possible that one may just bebetter? -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;582093 Wrote: Is it possible that one may just bebetter? And why can one Dac cost $200..and another (Weiss say, cost $4000)? Some watches cost $10,000, but they don't tell time any better than a $50 Casio. I find it hard honestly (not that you need to covince me :)) that you cant hear differences between Dacs. Which Dacs have you compared? Many, over the years. A Benchmark DAC1, the DACs in the SB3 (with and without linear power supply), touch, and duet, a Lavry, a boutique DAC by a small company I've momentarily forgotten the name of, a Blue Circle DAC, the DACs in various optical disk players and receivers, and many more. Which Dac do you use yourself, in your own system. And why did you choose that one? A Benchmark DAC 1. I chose that because it serves as a preamp (it's got several digital inputs), has an analog volume control, headphone outs, and an extremely low noise floor (which is unusually important in my system). It's also cleverly engineered, which appeals to my nerdy side. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;582103 Wrote: Some watches cost $10,000, but they don't tell time any better than a $50 Casio. *Uhm...yeah, ok. opaqueice;582103 Wrote: Many, over the years. A Benchmark DAC1, the DACs in the SB3 (with and without linear power supply), touch, and duet, a Lavry, a boutique DAC by a small company I've momentarily forgotten the name of, a Blue Circle DAC, the DACs in various optical disk players and receivers, and many more. *Sounds like you have good experience of different Dacs. They sounded exactly the same to you I take it? opaqueice;582103 Wrote: A Benchmark DAC 1. I chose that because it serves as a preamp (it's got several digital inputs), has an analog volume control, headphone outs, and an extremely low noise floor (which is unusually important in my system). It's also cleverly engineered, which appeals to my nerdy side. *Fair enough, we're all entitled to like what we like...sure that right? -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582024 Wrote: No there isn't. You prefer the sound of analogue. That's fine. For example, many people like to listen to 24/96 vinyl rips on high-end (?) digital gear because it captures the euphonic distortions of vinyl replay / the nuances of the record-cutting mix master very accurately. Nothing wrong with that - it's a taste choice. Too many people fall into the trap of believing that all analogue is intrinsically better - this despite the fact that what they are listening to often has digital in it somewhere. Bought any vinyl records recorded, mastered or cut in the last 20 years? Well recorded and mastered digital can sound better than vinyl. The converse can also be true. Now that recording engineers know how to operate and assess the digital chain properly (and it only took them 20 years!) there is no longer any basis to claim that digital always sounds inferior. Sure, if you are listening to a 1984 issue CD, incorrectly pressed from the uncorrected 2nd or 3rd gen backup copy of the vinyl EQ master tape, played back on some nasty 14-bit CD-player... that will sound rather bad! Exactly. As I've explained earlier in this thread, analog sources are loaded with the soft-knee kind of distortion. This kind of distortion (based on the mathematical principle of harmonics) is pleasing to many audiophiles' ears. The digital source is world famous for having noticeably less distortion than the analog, however, that trifle bit of digital distortion sounds very grating. Many people have described digital sound as being 'nervous'. It feels like having a pleasant walk along a beautiful seaside walkway while being annoyed by a pebble in your shoe. You can have a very high resolution, high quality digital sound source and still have this uneasy feeling of nervousness when listening to it, something you don't get when listening to a high quality, high resolution analog source. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582125 Wrote: You can have a very high resolution, high quality digital sound source and still have this uneasy feeling of nervousness when listening to it, something you don't get when listening to a high quality, high resolution analog source. It's called digititis irritis, a mental condition and has nothing to do with hearing. Patients reported seeing wild and endless stepladder going up and down, flashing ones and zeros in rapid successions against very dark background, almost black, causing irritation and anxiety. When subjected to a steady stream of fog and dim lights, patients experience peace, restfulness, their eyes less strained, their locations intact w/ proper sensory feedback... -- empty99 empty99's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3488 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
empty99;582162 Wrote: It's called digititis irritis, a mental condition and has nothing to do with hearing. Patients reported seeing wild and endless stepladder going up and down, flashing ones and zeros in rapid successions against very dark background, almost black, causing irritation and anxiety. When subjected to a steady stream of fog and dim lights, patients experience peace, restfulness, their eyes less strained, their locations intact w/ proper sensory feedback... Post of the Month so far :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582125 Wrote: ... You can have a very high resolution, high quality digital sound source and still have this uneasy feeling of nervousness when listening to it, something you don't get when listening to a high quality, high resolution analog source. Er, no. I always feel more nervous waiting for the rumble, wow flutter, dynamic drag, acoustic feedback, surface noise, tracing distortion (definitely NOT even-order harmonic!), pitiful channel separation and deeply compromised SNR to kick in... never mind the fact that vinyl cutters simply cannot cut bass properly without serious compression and also quite severe intermodulation distortion... Don't get me wrong - it can sound nice, but it ain't accurate. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582163 Wrote: Post of the Month so far :-) Small miracle actually, that vinyl can sound that good really, considering how crude the whole playback chain is but thanks to endless tweaking for 50+ years, it got pretty good! -- empty99 empty99's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3488 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582164 Wrote: Er, no. I always feel more nervous waiting for the rumble, wow flutter, dynamic drag, acoustic feedback, surface noise, tracing distortion (definitely NOT even-order harmonic!), pitiful channel separation and deeply compromised SNR to kick in... never mind the fact that vinyl cutters simply cannot cut bass properly without serious compression and also quite severe intermodulation distortion... Don't get me wrong - it can sound nice, but it ain't accurate. To me, the difference is the same as the difference between the bread maker and the bread you get from an experienced baker. The baker kneads the dough, messes about it, everything he does is extremely inaccurate, and each time he does it it's different. Meanwhile, the bread maker is a tightly controlled machine where all the parameters are super accurate and the variations are reduced to a minimum. No surprises there. Still, the bread out of a bread machine tastes like shit compared to the real artisan bakery hand made bread. Go figure... But I'm sure this analogy will go way over your head. Same as I'm sure you can't taste the difference between a shitty bread out of a bread machine and a gorgeous loaf of hand made bread produced by a master baker. Some people are only capable of appreciating convenience, nothing else. Quality is lost on them. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582183 Wrote: To me, the difference is the same as the difference between the bread maker and the bread you get from an experienced baker. The baker kneads the dough, messes about it, everything he does is extremely inaccurate, and each time he does it it's different. Meanwhile, the bread maker is a tightly controlled machine where all the parameters are super accurate and the variations are reduced to a minimum. No surprises there. Still, the bread out of a bread machine tastes like shit compared to the real artisan bakery hand made bread. Go figure... But I'm sure this analogy will go way over your head. Same as I'm sure you can't taste the difference between a shitty bread out of a bread machine and a gorgeous loaf of hand made bread produced by a master baker. Some people are only capable of appreciating convenience, nothing else. Quality is lost on them. Yeah - thanks for that sweeping generalization coupled with personal insult - I always love a constructive debate. Enjoy your (hideously overpriced and often unexceptional) artesan loaf/vinyl. Don't presume to know me. Breadmakers can make perfectly fine dough. It's what you do next that counts. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Phil Leigh;582188 Wrote: Yeah - thanks for that sweeping generalization coupled with personal insult - I always love a constructive debate. Enjoy your (hideously overpriced and often unexceptional) artesan loaf/vinyl. Don't presume to know me. Breadmakers can make perfectly fine dough. It's what you do next that counts. Magiccarpetride.. c'mon relax man. dont try to change peoples opinions...waste of time. casting yourself in a bad light here buddy.. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;582104 Wrote: Sounds like you have good experience of different Dacs. *They sounded exactly the same to you I take it? * Actually not quite. The boutique DAC (which I still have by the way - anyone want to buy it? :D) distorted audibly on certain high volume passages when connected to a particular amp I used to have. Impedance mismatch, I assume (actually I'm fairly sure, I did some experiments). The SB3 DAC produces a level of display-brightness correlated noise that I found intolerable in my (unusual) active system. But playing music while functioning properly, yes, they all sound identical. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;582183 Wrote: To me, the difference is the same as the difference between the bread maker and the bread you get from an experienced baker. The baker kneads the dough, messes about it, everything he does is extremely inaccurate, and each time he does it it's different. Meanwhile, the bread maker is a tightly controlled machine where all the parameters are super accurate and the variations are reduced to a minimum. No surprises there. Still, the bread out of a bread machine tastes like shit compared to the real artisan bakery hand made bread. Go figure... But I'm sure this analogy will go way over your head. Same as I'm sure you can't taste the difference between a shitty bread out of a bread machine and a gorgeous loaf of hand made bread produced by a master baker. Some people are only capable of appreciating convenience, nothing else. Quality is lost on them.You can fling as many analogies as you like; they prove nothing. You like that kind of sound and that's OK. -- Kal Rubinson Kal Rubinson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40032 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
If it turns out that Transporter is substantially better (measured as the audible improvement in the sound quality), it may be justifiable to pursue it on audiogon = TRANSPORTER AS A DIGITAL SOURCE (My reading of forum opinion here) === Substantially better...no way. Lot better?...no. Discernibly better?..no. Subtly better?...yes, but yopu need a very revealing High end system to tell, and even then it could be interpreted as different rather than better by some. === See many posts on here which includes measurements not just subjective opinion. The TP shades the Touch as a digital transport...but were talking what, 5%? Not worth paying all that extra $ for...IMHO you'd get far better bang for your buck spending MUCH less and buy a Touch, and mod the Caiman with Mutara Regs, Linear PSU, Passive mod with film (as opposed to electrolytic) Caps. Honestly..just dont buy a Transporter if substantially better sound quality is your goal. HOWEVER THE TRANSPORTER HAS OTHER THINGS GOING FOR IT OTHER THAN THE PERCEIVED SOUND QUALITY OVER THE TOUCH. If any of these things are relevant - and more important to you than absolute sound quality as a transport, and you have the cash - go for it. = As far as modding my Caiman goes, the only thing holding me back is the burn in time. Because of that, I'd hate to reset the DAC to the day one, after I mod it. Do you have any experience with the burn in time after the mods? Yeah, I can comment on that. Each mod improves the sound out of the box, as in right away. Theres no backwards step in sound quality mate...each one inproves the Dac right away, then gets better over time. I've been running in film caps with my passive mod for about a week now and I can tell you the passive mod (direct feed from the Dac chip with DC coupling into caps - no need for an opamp output stage) is a fantastic improvement - not subtle in any way. If you like we can talk more about the Dac side of things... So, if its sound quality your focussing on...no need to get a Transporter unless its other features are of importance. Its got a great Dac in it, but your Caiman is on its level. Mod it...well. You'll see. For the record I have heard a modded Transporter with a valve output stage and it was fantastic. Costs $$$'s though unlike the Caiman Mods. Its all about how you will use the equipment, not about what it can do on paper. Why pay $$$ for stuff you wont get any use from? -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;581812 Wrote: Hmm. Well, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'd love to witness a blind level-matched test where you try to tell them apart. Under normal listening conditions (normal volume, normal music) I might even be willing to bet money that you can't get (say) 5/5 correct (which ought to be trivial if it's really night and day). The only thing that makes me hesitate is that I've never heard (or heard of) Caiman before, so possibly it's some odd design that strongly distorts the sound. Hi, the design ethos of the Caiman Dac is actually the opposite of -strongly distorting- the sound. It breaks the mould design wise, and has a larger user group of enthusiasts who love it. If you want to know more about it, you could always read here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/index.php Gaz. -- Gazjam Gazjam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;581833 Wrote: For the record I have heard a modded Transporter with a valve output stage and it was fantastic. Costs $$$'s though unlike the Caiman Mods. Try also Burson HD Opamps -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Gazjam;581835 Wrote: Hi, Honestly, even with 16/44 material the difference between the Duet dac and the Caiman is so obvious even your Granny could pick it out. :) Different level entirely. The design ethos of the Caiman Dac is actually the opposite of -strongly distorting- the sound. In my opinion, if you can tell the difference between it and a decent reference DAC (the one in the touch will do as an example), it is distorting the sound. DACs shouldn't color the sound at all, and the differences between any two decent reference DACs are small enough to be inaudible. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
michael123;581853 Wrote: Try also Burson HD Opamps They must be coloring the sound nicely. They only have up to 10x the distortion of a simple NE5534 but most likely add some sweetness. Add some Black Gate NX and you´ll have indeed tuned sound. Nowhere near to neutral and most likely way worse specs measuring wise as what the engeneer of the unit tried to archive. But it indeed sounds better to many. -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Wombat;581889 Wrote: They must be coloring the sound nicely. They only have up to 10x the distortion of a simple NE5534 but most likely add some sweetness. Add some Black Gate NX and you´ll have indeed tuned sound. Nowhere near to neutral and most likely way worse specs measuring wise as what the engeneer of the unit tried to archive. But it indeed sounds better to many. Why do think about 10x distortion? These are -discrete circuits-... (any links?) Anyway, I do not care if it is 0.0001% or 0.001%, and the question here is WHICH distortion. Which harmonics are added.. It is a full suite of analysis, I could not care less if that is THD.. But yes, it sounds better. Most impressive thing I got is the texture of the musical instruments (micro-dynamics is the word?), especially percussion. I still have very high SNR in my system, this is easily tested with WAV files.. Sound is clean, got more depth.. and less boring than of stock unit -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
You may find the document yourself. I don´t remember the link. Since you can hear it you don´t need it, like you already said. It was the Burson MKII that has really poor measurements, like did many of the discrete ones. Much worse then cheap audio integrated ones. -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
michael123;581905 Wrote: Anyway, I do not care if it is 0.0001% or 0.001%, and the question here is WHICH distortion. Which harmonics are added.. It is a full suite of analysis, I could not care less if that is THD.. But yes, it sounds better. Most impressive thing I got is the texture of the musical instruments (micro-dynamics is the word?), especially percussion. I like this comment. I have no problem at all if people like the sound of a certain type of distortion and want it in their system, that's entirely up to them. An analogy occurs to me. Sometimes a photo looks better, more interesting or artistic, if it's been processed in certain ways (for example one can punch up the colors so that they're more vivid than in real life, or blur the image to hide unpleasant details). Still, you presumably want to apply such distortions on a photo-by-photo basis. You wouldn't want your television or projector to blur -all- photos, especially when the photos have already been processed professionally. In that case you may want your TV to display something as close as is possible to the version the professional saw on her screen. That's my attitude towards sound reproduction, and why I'd prefer components that don't distort the sound audibly. But it's entirely a matter of personal preference. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
When we are at it. Many outputs that are build in an audiophile way or may it be using a discrete OP amp in the exit are especially dedicated to tuning. The cable behind that component is a capacitive load that give such exits problems. Here is where different cables - different capacitive load - different sound. A modern OP like the LMEs can handle that pretty well. Audiophile cables work different here. Many may misinterpret that as the OP amp is worse cause it can´t squeeze out the cable sound :) -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;581812 Wrote: Hmm. Well, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'd love to witness a blind level-matched test where you try to tell them apart. Under normal listening conditions (normal volume, normal music) I might even be willing to bet money that you can't get (say) 5/5 correct (which ought to be trivial if it's really night and day). The only thing that makes me hesitate is that I've never heard (or heard of) Caiman before, so possibly it's some odd design that strongly distorts the sound. Well, ALL audio components distort the sound. There is no way out of that predicament. The only question is what kind of distortion are we talking about. In general, digital source components generate sufficient quantity of non-harmonic distortions as they work on reproducing the signal chain, so much so that we tend to hear the sum of these distortions as certain brittleness, harshness. Thus there is a consensus that digital sound reproduction is inferior to analog sound reproduction. Make no mistake, analog sound sources also generate loads of distortion, actually much higher degree of distortion than digital sources. However, that's a different kind of distortion (my sound engineer friends refer to analog distortions as 'soft knee' distortions). These distortions are of harmonic nature, and even though the analog soft-knee distortions tend to be of a much higher magnitude than the digital random distortions, they are much more pleasing to the ear. Beresford Caiman DAC is designed in such a way to sound like a vinyl record. Gone are all the harsh artifacts that other, much more 'correct' and superior DACs invariably introduce into the audio chain. Anyone who is fortunate enough to hear Caiman DAC in action is guaranteed to get blown away by the analog-like warmth, softness and sweetness of the sound it produces. In comparative blindfold testing, it is always clear that other DACs tend to sound cold, clinical, lifeless, when compared to Caiman. If I place you in a DBT session with Caiman and some other flagship DACs and you can't hear the drastic difference between the two, then I'd be forced to conclude that you have no pulse whatsoever. The reason I'm so sure is that I've tried comparative listening tests with some other components (most notably pre amps and power amps), and for many instances, couldn't really detect much, or any difference. With Caiman, however, the difference is immediate. Try it, you'll be very, very surprised. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581926 Wrote: Thus there is a consensus that digital sound reproduction is inferior to analog sound reproduction. Did i miss something? I doubt i will see the day that consensus is reached :) -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581926 Wrote: The only question is what kind of distortion are we talking about. Well, no, there's at least one other rather crucial question - the level of distortion and whether it's low enough to be inaudible. For mature digital components like DACs, I believe that standard designs are capable of reducing distortion levels to far below the threshold of audibility. Thus there is a consensus that digital sound reproduction is inferior to analog sound reproduction. There is certainly a consensus among the people that agree :D. Beresford Caiman DAC is designed in such a way to sound like a vinyl record. Gone are all the harsh artifacts that other, much more 'correct' and superior DACs invariably introduce into the audio chain. Anyone who is fortunate enough to hear Caiman DAC in action is guaranteed to get blown away by the analog-like warmth, softness and sweetness of the sound it produces. In comparative blindfold testing, it is always clear that other DACs tend to sound cold, clinical, lifeless, when compared to Caiman. If I place you in a DBT session with Caiman and some other flagship DACs and you can't hear the drastic difference between the two, then I'd be forced to conclude that you have no pulse whatsoever. It's clearly possible to design a DAC so that it induces enough distortion to make an audible difference. Personally, I'd immediately chuck any such DAC design out the window and start over, because in my view, the goal is to minimize the distortion the components in my audio chain add to the signal. The reason I'm so sure is that I've tried comparative listening tests with some other components (most notably pre amps and power amps), and for many instances, couldn't really detect much, or any difference. With Caiman, however, the difference is immediate. Try it, you'll be very, very surprised. I will, if I get a chance. Thanks. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;581935 Wrote: Well, no, there's at least one other rather crucial question - the level of distortion and whether it's low enough to be inaudible. For mature digital components like DACs, I believe that standard designs are capable of reducing distortion levels to far below the threshold of audibility. There is certainly a consensus among the people that agree :D. It's clearly possible to design a DAC so that it induces enough distortion to make an audible difference. Personally, I'd immediately chuck any such DAC design out the window and start over, because in my view, the goal is to minimize the distortion the components in my audio chain add to the signal. I will, if I get a chance. Thanks. I wasn't very clear in my previous explanation: it is not desirable to use a DAC that will take the bit-perfect digital signal and just faithfully convert it to analog signal. Why? Because the digital source, when compared to the same analog source, sucks beyond belief. The digital source is just a crude approximation, a crass caricature, if you will, of the original analog signal that got captured by the microphone and stored on the magnetic tape. Think of a digital audio source as if being similar to an extremely pixelated photo. The DAC needs to upconvert the harsh jagged edges into smooth curves. In order to be able to do that, the DAC needs to be very creative, that is, built with some ingenuity. The job of a DAC is to be resourceful and try to interpolate as much musicality into that caricature of a signal. That's why bad DACs sound like shit, because they're staying too close to the original choppy digital information. It is very easy to build a DAC that will minimize any distortion, but the end results are horrendous. Extremely grating to the ears! Of course, no matter how much ingenuity we pour into the DACs, we will never be able to match the musicality of an analog source. But, as already evidenced by DACs such as Caiman, we're getting pretty darn close:) -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Wombat;581934 Wrote: Did i miss something? I doubt i will see the day that consensus is reached :) Really? I've yet to meet an audiophile who thinks that digital sounds better than analog. Some deluded souls do claim that digital can sound on par with analog, but no one ever claimed that it sounds better. At least to my limited knowledge, that is. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581952 Wrote: Really? I've yet to meet an audiophile who thinks that digital sounds better than analog. Some deluded souls do claim that digital can sound on par with analog, but no one ever claimed that it sounds better. At least to my limited knowledge, that is. We won´t find an answer here also. Lately i sometimes have read that analog magic comes into play when reaching 24/192 even on some audiophile pages. Even the most best Jazz recording freaks in japan switched from analog tape to 384kHz. But that is a completely different story. Above you do again some marketig for the Caiman and how it tries to approximate vinyl. Well other audiophiles will tell you that attempt is false, better get a non-oversampling DAC :) I even wasted some time now visiting the Caiman page. Can´t find anything special on it. An generic up-to-date DAC with LM4562 Op amps in the exit that even i may like ;) It makes me wonder that you claim it sounds that much different as all other Dacs you heard. -- Wombat Transporter - RG142 - Avantgarde based monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581951 Wrote: I wasn't very clear in my previous explanation: it is not desirable to use a DAC that will take the bit-perfect digital signal and just faithfully convert it to analog signal. Why? Because the digital source, when compared to the same analog source, sucks beyond belief. The digital source is just a crude approximation, a crass caricature, if you will, of the original analog signal that got captured by the microphone and stored on the magnetic tape. Think of a digital audio source as if being similar to an extremely pixelated photo. The DAC needs to upconvert the harsh jagged edges into smooth curves. In order to be able to do that, the DAC needs to be very creative, that is, built with some ingenuity. I don't mean to be rude, but... that's pretty badly wrong. If you don't believe me, see the posts by Sean Adams here (the designer of the squeezebox products), or read any book on signal analysis, Fourier transforms, or information theory. Here's the very simplest way I can think of to explain why you're incorrect. Take your jagged-edged signal produced by a DAC and subtract it from the original analog signal. The result of that subtraction is the distortion induced by the A--D--A chain. The relevant question is whether or not that distortion is audible when added to the original signal, or whether or not it's as loud as the noise component of the original analog signal. If the answer to both questions is no, then the digital signal will not sound audibly different from the original. A more sophisticated way to look at it is via Shannon, Hartley, and Nyquist, who proved a series of mathematical theorems that tell you precisely what you need to do to encode and reproduce a real-world (finite bandwidth, finite signal/noise) analog signal. The 16 bit 44.1 kHz standard was designed to meet those requirements up to and beyond the level of audible differences, and does so under realistic conditions. If you don't believe me, try distinguishing the sound of a vinyl record from a good quality digital recording (or A--D--A processed version) of that same record. Here are two attempts to do that, both failures: http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=STf=21t=7953 There are more such tests out there. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581952 Wrote: Really? I've yet to meet an audiophile who thinks that digital sounds better than analog. Some deluded souls do claim that digital can sound on par with analog, but no one ever claimed that it sounds better. Oh, to my ears digital certainly sounds better. Vinyl has those irritating pops and crackles. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
magiccarpetride;581951 Wrote: I wasn't very clear in my previous explanation: it is not desirable to use a DAC that will take the bit-perfect digital signal and just faithfully convert it to analog signal. Why? Because the digital source, when compared to the same analog source, sucks beyond belief. The digital source is just a crude approximation, a crass caricature, if you will, of the original analog signal that got captured by the microphone and stored on the magnetic tape. Think of a digital audio source as if being similar to an extremely pixelated photo. The DAC needs to upconvert the harsh jagged edges into smooth curves. In order to be able to do that, the DAC needs to be very creative, that is, built with some ingenuity. The job of a DAC is to be resourceful and try to interpolate as much musicality into that caricature of a signal. That's why bad DACs sound like shit, because they're staying too close to the original choppy digital information. It is very easy to build a DAC that will minimize any distortion, but the end results are horrendous. Extremely grating to the ears! Of course, no matter how much ingenuity we pour into the DACs, we will never be able to match the musicality of an analog source. But, as already evidenced by DACs such as Caiman, we're getting pretty darn close:)Not in my universe but that's what makes this stuff fascinating.:-) Kal -- Kal Rubinson Kal Rubinson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40032 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
In my universe digital audio is superior when done right . LP is typically equivalent of 12-13 bit audio . I did have a nice systemdeck with bruer arm and some good MC pickups, but in 1990's with my first really good DAC Meridian563 it was no contest anymore. One of my friends had amazing Opus3 turntable with an well-tempered tonearm and a vdh modified SPU it also sounded gorgeous, clocked many hours listening to that one . When I wish i had an analog rig is when there is no good remaster of the old stuff . master tapes do not always fare well over time, some things is sadly lost in time, what we have is the LP's the best approximation available then.. (making LP's out of digital masters makes no sense what so ever it's completely bonkers) Otherwise my general opinion is that the SQ is mostly limited by the crappy recordings. Most recordings are not limited by the CD medium and I dare say not limited by LP either. Good analog is reel to reel tape. LP has severe limitations 20dB Channel separation gobs of 2nd harmonics acoustic feedback etc.. and that noise amplifying MC pickups ? but i preferred it to transformers who sounded weird to me . Maybe someone can rewoke my audiophile card for me as I've been happy with digital for the last 15 years :) -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 and assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4 Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE for the rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Miscellaneous use: Radio (with battery) I use a Controller various ir-remotes and a Eee-PC with squeezeplay to control this Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
opaqueice;581959 Wrote: Oh, to my ears digital certainly sounds better. Vinyl has that irritating surface noise. I'm not sure I'd call myself an audiophile, but I've certainly spent lots of time and money finding an audio system I like, and I listen to it all the time. I'd never trade it in for a vinyl rig, no matter how high quality. Same debate is raging over at the photography camp. Digital vs film. I'm just a dabbler, but to my eyes film is vastly superior to digital photography. Even though, same as vinyl, you could say that film has that 'surface noise', and is liable to all kinds of chemical-induced noise, it still presents a much more superior rendition of the photographed scenery. Same, to my ears, with vinyl. But we're now getting into the personal taste, and that's not worth debating. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 10/10/10 21:54, magiccarpetride wrote: Same debate is raging over at the photography camp. Digital vs film. I'm just a dabbler, but to my eyes film is vastly superior to digital photography. Even though, same as vinyl, you could say that film has that 'surface noise', and is liable to all kinds of chemical-induced noise, it still presents a much more superior rendition of the photographed scenery. That's not so. I recall a test in some photography magazine where they took two pictures of the same subject with essentially the same camera, except one had a digital body, the other was (high quality) film. They then blew up both photos very large. The digital one was far better. It had better colour balance and better resolution. R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;581981 Wrote: That's not so. I recall a test in some photography magazine where they took two pictures of the same subject with essentially the same camera, except one had a digital body, the other was (high quality) film. They then blew up both photos very large. The digital one was far better. It had better colour balance and better resolution. And to make matters more interesting: most places humans take film for processing, it is converted to digital for printing, not the old darkroom method and chemical mixes. So the difference is where the 'analog' real world is converted to digital: at the camera itself or at the photo processor. This is similar to how many home receivers convert all their analog inputs to digital to process the signal in dubious ways. (Lets make it sound like an arena... why?) So using the SB's internal DAC may actually be worse depending on where the signal goes. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;581981 Wrote: That's not so. I recall a test in some photography magazine where they took two pictures of the same subject with essentially the same camera, except one had a digital body, the other was (high quality) film. They then blew up both photos very large. The digital one was far better. It had better colour balance and better resolution. Photography is meant to be enjoyed by people, not blown up to a very large size and then analyzed. Such experiment is at best geeky and thus useless. You can compare for yourself. Take a fancy digital camera, the fanciest one there is (let's say something with 20,000+ pixels that retails for $10,000.00+). Go to a park, preferably on a late sunny afternoon/evening, and find a spot where the sun rays are shining through leafy trees. Face the sunny rays so that your eyes squint, and take a snapshot with the digital camera, and then from the same spot take a snapshot with a film camera. Compare the prints -- you'll see that film is way superior in retaining the extremes between bright light and shadows. Digital cannot come even close at handling such heavy and demanding contrast. Thus digital is clearly inferior to film. Similar reasoning goes for digital sound vs analog. -- magiccarpetride magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
On 11/10/10 01:29, magiccarpetride wrote: Photography is meant to be enjoyed by people, not blown up to a very large size and then analyzed. Such experiment is at best geeky and thus useless. The use-case for the experiment was for large posters. It was not a pointless geeky experiment. You can compare for yourself. Take a fancy digital camera, the fanciest one there is (let's say something with 20,000+ pixels that retails for $10,000.00+). Go to a park, preferably on a late sunny afternoon/evening, and find a spot where the sun rays are shining through leafy trees. Face the sunny rays so that your eyes squint, and take a snapshot with the digital camera, and then from the same spot take a snapshot with a film camera. Compare the prints -- you'll see that film is way superior in retaining the extremes between bright light and shadows. Digital cannot come even close at handling such heavy and demanding contrast. Thus digital is clearly inferior to film. Similar reasoning goes for digital sound vs analog. Except that... well, as opaqueice has already suggested your understanding of these things is wrong on so many levels, and I can't be bothered to educate you. You may well enjoy your Caiman DAC, but it sure as hell ain't for the reasons you're claiming! R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Robin Bowes;582000 Wrote: On 11/10/10 01:29, magiccarpetride wrote: Photography is meant to be enjoyed by people, not blown up to a very large size and then analyzed. Such experiment is at best geeky and thus useless. The use-case for the experiment was for large posters. It was not a pointless geeky experiment. You can compare for yourself. Take a fancy digital camera, the fanciest one there is (let's say something with 20,000+ pixels that retails for $10,000.00+). Go to a park, preferably on a late sunny afternoon/evening, and find a spot where the sun rays are shining through leafy trees. Face the sunny rays so that your eyes squint, and take a snapshot with the digital camera, and then from the same spot take a snapshot with a film camera. Compare the prints -- you'll see that film is way superior in retaining the extremes between bright light and shadows. Digital cannot come even close at handling such heavy and demanding contrast. Thus digital is clearly inferior to film. Similar reasoning goes for digital sound vs analog. Except that... well, as opaqueice has already suggested your understanding of these things is wrong on so many levels, and I can't be bothered to educate you. You may well enjoy your Caiman DAC, but it sure as hell ain't for the reasons you're claiming! R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ It is a delight to return to this forum and digest the common sense pearls of wisdom from Robin, opaqueice, snarly dwarf and Phil. I'll get my popcorn and continue to read :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Digital transports have a very small effect on sound compared to many other changes you could make. I'd spend the money on an audio pro consultant to advise you on room acoustics, and/or on room treatments. If you don't want to do that and like your speakers, you could try using the transporter as a source (i.e. as a DAC). First, try bypassing your DAC and using the duet's DAC. Can you tell the difference? Are you sure? Because if the difference is subtle or non-existent, it's probably not worth spending much on. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
Acoustic treatment aside, digital transports have tremendous influence on sound quality, but this is a function of all other system components. There are no rules in audio, you shall just try and see if you hear the difference... If jitter specs matter to you, just buy the best - CEC, or Weiss INT202 or M2Tech Evo, etc. Transporter is also a very good transport --Michael -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
michael123;581681 Wrote: Acoustic treatment aside, digital transports have tremendous influence on sound quality, but this is a function of all other system components. I politely but vehemently disagree, and let me add that my opinion is based on extensive testing of my own, plus the results of every controlled test ever conducted on this issue that I'm aware of. That said it's still just an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own (and to choosing what to spend their money on). But I think it's fair for the OP to know what the range of opinions is, and what's the evidence behind them. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
I always check equipment in my system.. I published results here on forum.. Well, yes, this is all subjective. digital audio is actually an analog signal @ RF, which is not actually a square wave.. this varies between transports.. What equipment you tested BTW, on what system setup? -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
michael123;581713 Wrote: I always check equipment in my system.. I published results here on forum.. Well, yes, this is all subjective. OK. digital audio is actually an analog signal @ RF, which is not actually a square wave.. this varies between transports.. Yes, that's true. But the question is whether said variations result in (truly) audible differences. Of course that depends on their amplitude, spectrum, and how the DAC they go in to is designed, so one cannot make absolute statements. But the same goes for variations in the humidity in the air of one's listening room and the phase of the moon. What one can do is come to have a sense of how important these various effects are. What equipment you tested BTW, on what system setup? A fairly large variety over the years. At the moment I have a SB touch and a PS3 (mainly used for blu ray movies) feeding a Benchmark DAC 1, going into an active Linkwitz Orion system (that costs about $10K new). The amp is an ATI 12 channel (the Orions need 8 channels of amplification). The room is 25x20x9, and not very well treated acoustically. That last is by far the biggest problem the system has. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How much can transport mechanism affect SQ?
I fully agree about acoustics RE: phases of a moon - I agree less, although a sentence before was correct IMHO :) If you have truly re-clocking asynchronous DAC, or thing like Empirical Audio in between, you will probably depend less on the transport.. -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82520 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
