Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
I don't have anything to contribute to this thread as such, but just wanted to say this: Who is superbonham and where has (s)he been hiding? Your posts are perhaps the most balanced and rationally argued I've seen around here for a long time. Welcome to the audiophile forum. And please don't let the crazies chase you away - we need more of your kind here. Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
pablolie wrote: > but i believe when companies don't open-mindedly acknowledge disruption, > they get obsolete and replaced by new companies that do. Indeed. A week ago I had the pleasure to attend an event where David Byrne and independent music publisher Michel Lambot discussed the future of the music business. They both predicted that the CD (and DVD) would be dead in 5 years, with vinyl hanging on as a "fetish object" (Byrne's words). Lambot showed some interesting figures - total music sales revenue in countries such as Sweden is actually up, mainly due to streaming services. He also showed how the revenue (to artist and record label) for a single spotify stream is very small, but still 10 times as much as on youtube and 100 times as much as for a BBC Radio 1 listener. Byrne also told how her daughter mostly listens to music through the speaker on her smart phone. First he thought the quality was awful, but then realized it was much better than the transistor radio he had when growing up. So yes, disruption is happening, and you either go with it or become roadkill. But the old guard will fight it every step of the way... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > ... FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) by industry insiders, which > includes manufacturers and the high end audio press, to drum up new > business. What private individuals care to believe is of no interest > since, it has been stated over and over, everyone is entitled to their > own opinion. > well we'd all be guessing about the future. but i believe when companies don't open-mindedly acknowledge disruption, they get obsolete and replaced by new companies that do. with that in mind, i think anyone that ignores the trend towards affordable, high quality audio is a fool. i think what's remained constant is the amount of $ most consumers pay to satisfy their audio needs. i'd say that is a few hundred bucks a year. and, even us long term audiophile aficionados must acknowledge that buys you great audio these days. my computer, an Aduioquest Dragonfly and Shure SE530 provide mindblowing sound. to beat that in my home audio shrine, and notice the difference, i must cough up 10X the cost. for diminishing returns that are, however, very rewarding. i think there is a sweet spot there in the middle that remains unexploited. the audio industry doesn't educate about the amazing quality that can be had these days with systems costing between 5k to 10k. with honest education, great products -which high end brands as of now refuse to produce in that price bracket- there could be a thriving market in the making. how can anyone explain Beats success? there is a need there. when teenagers are willing to spend $400 on crappy headphones... why did the established players allow that market to go to someone else? it amazes me. the unapproachable crap many high ends sprout opens the door for newcomers. in fact, i'd say SlimDevices was a classic example, even though the outcome was not it could have been. clearly the people buying Beats (and sorry to bash them) don't read the audiophile press, in fact they don't listen to a single review from someone with a somewhat trained ear... but they are willing to plonk down cash on the product, which ultimately means there is genuine passion for music and sound there, misguided as we think it is. i am pretty happy with my system and shall watch developments with amusement and without product religion. what i am sure about is someone will get it right, and consumers will vote with what matters in market economy - their money. if i was a hyper high end audio manufacturer that sniffs at the "luxury" consumer sweet spot, look at the true high end car brands - *none* of them survived independently. they are part of larger conglomerates - the BMW 1 and 3 series bankrolls the existence and viability of Rolls. or the watch industry. or watches... people buy Swatches and hence, Blancpains and Breguets and Glashuettes still make commercial sense. not by themselves, though. it has started to happen of course in audio, too. but *far* more and probably quite brutal consolidation is required. i wonder how many audio brands literally live of recruiting one or two customers a year. many of them -and i know this for a fact- barely recruit a few hundred new customers a year. that was my 2c. ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware Player System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- Creek Destiny Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- KEF LS50 Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > Wow my head is spinning with all these detailed and well reasoned posts. > However everyone fails to address the core issue and the one that really > gets me upset with the world of high end audio. The issue being the use > of FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) by industry insiders, which > includes manufacturers and the high end audio press, to drum up new > business. > > [...] > > The latest audiophile craze of DSD is a fine example of the use of FUD > since to date there is no clear evidence that a DSD offers any sonic > advantage over high resolution PCM (which is also guilty of the same, > since there is no clear evidence that high resolution PCM offers any > sonic advantage over standard resolution (16bit/44.1khz) PCM). And as > I've stated more than once - many DSD recordings currently available > were at one time or another converted to PCM -> edited -> converted back > DSD - which makes them basically PCM recordings. Given the questionable sonic benefit of DSD audio and the fact that the SACD (which still might be the most common transport medium for DSD) seems to have quite an effective 'copy protection' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD#Copy_protection) the goal of promoting DSD seems pretty obvious to me: The 'audio content industry' wants to re-establish their former status quo that stood out by ridiculously high margins (for only little 'added value'). If you can sell expensive players (necessary for enforcing the copy protection) it's also interesting for 'high end audio' device manufacturers (and consequentially mandatory for the 'high end audio' press to rave about DSD). superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Wow my head is spinning with all these detailed and well reasoned posts. However everyone fails to address the core issue and the one that really gets me upset with the world of high end audio. The issue being the use of FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) by industry insiders, which includes manufacturers and the high end audio press, to drum up new business. What private individuals care to believe is of no interest since, it has been stated over and over, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The latest audiophile craze of DSD is a fine example of the use of FUD since to date there is no clear evidence that a DSD offers any sonic advantage over high resolution PCM (which is also guilty of the same, since there is no clear evidence that high resolution PCM offers any sonic advantage over standard resolution (16bit/44.1khz) PCM). And as I've stated more than once - many DSD recordings currently available were at one time or another converted to PCM -> edited -> converted back DSD - which makes them basically PCM recordings. Just sayin'. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Let's agree to disagree on that one. I am willing to disagree but I still would be happy about a reason to do so ;) darrenyeats wrote: > IIRC Fermat claimed he had a really simple proof, that would be a > cracker if true. Yes, he purportedly did have a proof and yes, it would be a cracker if it was true. Based on the enormous mathematical 'treasure chest' of methods (from various mathematical disciplines) - of which some have been fully developed only lately - it is quite common understanding that he was wrong (even though he might not have been aware of this fact). superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
superbonham wrote: > IMO they were refinements based on revolutionary but somewhat inevitable > concepts. > Let's agree to disagree on that one. IIRC Fermat claimed he had a really simple proof, that would be a cracker if true. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote:
> But the "audiophile" segment is a tiny fragment of the "consumer"
> category.
You are of course right.
Julf wrote:
> Yes, it is a very cash-loaded segment, but it is very irrational and
> fickle. Ask any luxury good company.
This is unfortunately also true. Still I think the 'cash-loaded' segment
could contribute to progress in audio engineering if ('Modus Irealus'?)
it was more fact-based.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > What does a unicorn fart smell like and would one be able to tell it > apart of a fairy fart in a double blind test? I have no idea. But I know what they sound like, so a double blind test is a breeze. The fairy has DR11 and the unicorn DR18. More oomph, so to speak. OK, I'll be quiet now. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Very good. Science being very mathematical, his argument is > unsurprisingly maths-based and he quantifies how successive theories get > less wrong. Also he picked really simple things like the shape of the > earth, and indeed this has been refined over time. Sadly, Relativity and > QM marked a complete and utter throwing out of prior classical > -concepts-. But because mathematically their equations give similar > (just slightly more accurate) answers than classical physics in most > normal situations, would the author want us to think they were merely > refinements? I can't see it. IMO they were refinements based on revolutionary but somewhat inevitable concepts. darrenyeats wrote: > But Relativity and QM are extremely rare events in science. I can't > think of any revolutions that compare since. I'm not quite sure. Of course it's very hard to decide what constitutes a (scientific) revolution. Even though the entries of the following list might not have the same momentousness as (general) relativity theory or QM, they are amongst my 'personal favourites': - Watson's an Crick's work on the structure of the DNA molecule (might be practically even more important than QM) - Andrew Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem (even though the conjecture is not very notable the proof is) - The invention of Public Key Cryptography (Ellis, Cocks, Diffie & Hellman and [potentially many] others) darrenyeats wrote: > > If there were no future revolutions I'd be disappointed! Me too! superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
superbonham wrote: > If we only had a more fact-based discussion within the so-called > 'audiophile' segment, progress would be even better than it is already > today, because effort spent on developing improved designs need the > consumer's acceptance (and money) in the end. But the "audiophile" segment is a tiny fragment of the "consumer" category. Yes, it is a very cash-loaded segment, but it is very irrational and fickle. Ask any luxury good company. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > If there were no future revolutions I'd be disappointed though! But who will be the first ones up against the wall? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
alfista wrote: > > It's been posted here before, but it's still enjoyable reading, 'The > Relativity of Wrong' > (http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm) Very good. Science being very mathematical, his argument is unsurprisingly maths-based and he quantifies how successive theories get less wrong. Also he picked really simple things like the shape of the earth, and indeed this has been refined over time. Sadly, Relativity and QM marked a complete and utter throwing out of prior classical -concepts-. But because mathematically their equations give similar (just slightly more accurate) answers than classical physics in most normal situations, would the author want us to think they were merely refinements? I can't see it. But Relativity and QM are extremely rare events in science. I can't think of any revolutions that compare since. So the author's point is well made in general. If there were no revolutions to come I'd be disappointed though! Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
pablolie wrote: > I like faithful reproduction, never quite got into the whole tube thing, > and i was glad when i got rid of my turntable. :-) > > i also think one can indeed measure many things quite well and that they > provide a reliable indication of the design intent of the engineers, > which for me ideally is quite a linear response across frequencies and > loads... but we also all know that the *ideal* response can not be > achieved yet, even though several designs come quite close. > > i thoroughly agree a bit is a bit, and jitter discussions over USB or > Toslink focus on the wrong side of the issue. > > when it comes to the analogue side, even within the DAC, more so in > amplification, and especially with loudspeakers, wow, there are quite a > bit of elements at work. one of the reasons i think one day active > loudspeakers will rule the world is because it eliminates a lot of > guesswork with matching stuff up. sometimes components don't mix well > even when they are all well designed and on paper look like they should > sound awesome. analogue is treacherous, and manufacturing tolerances can > add up to the point where something is audible even when it comes to 2 > amplifiers of the same kind (i did so with MusicalFidelity M1PWR, one > clearly noisier than the other, but i would have never known if i'd only > received the "bad" one, because it still sounded very good). Many thanks for this post - I couldn't agree more. As a 'rudimentary informed layman' I also expect active speaker designs (with crossovers before amplification) to be the most promising speaker concept. If we only had a more fact-based discussion within the so-called 'audiophile' segment, progress would be even better than it is already today, because effort spent on developing improved designs need the consumer's acceptance (any money) in the end. (This - by the way - also holds true for other areas of potential progress slowed-down by false beliefs like in medical care [e.g. homeopathy], or an up-to-date continuation of Darwin's evolution theory [e.g. creationism]). pablolie wrote: > and speakers... wow. when someone said that models are flawed they were > RIGHT. we engineers work with models, and they are quite awesome, but > they never reflect a TRUTH. witness speakers. when we measure them, we > ultimately measure them by modeling the human ear. does anyone think we > have a perfectly accurate model for that? that's why it's important to > involve some trained ears in the design of good analog audio equipment. > i could download a circuit design for an amp on the internet, go buy the > best batch of everything parts, put it together, and still come up with > something underwhelming. i have actually done it, albeit many years ago > in University. :-) it is not as simple. it is not just a formula. > > and the reason for that is that there is stuff we don't know about how > our hearing works. it is most certainly NOT linear at all. it is hard to > model. hence, it is hard to cater to that "perfect sound production" > model that is being advanced here, at least as far as the analog part of > the design goes, that is, where the soundwave leaves the membrane. and > btw try to model the latter perfectly... and you'll prolly win a Nobel. > :-) I still think engineering and the audio equipment industry should strive for the most transaparent music reproduction öpossible. 'Shortcuts' based on (assumed) imperfections of human audio perception should be the 'last resort'. Practically I think we all cannot live without them for mere practical reasons, though. Cheers Ben superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
You have all the rigths to prefer anything that's not really the audiophile "problem" . There are confusion"good sound" is not alway equvavilent to " faithfull reproduction " ok are we in agreement you have your preference , you migth even want tube amps with less than ideal output impedance because it makes an othervise lean speaker sound more full ( I would not do that but anyway ) you can mix all kinds of coulorfull non transparent equipment all day , enjoy :) But most irritating the audiophile press and some audiophiles runs some pretend game where they actually claim that obviusly coloured and substandard equipment designed with no healty science involved "sounds better" and is more faithfull to the input signal ,the music they want to listen to ? That's not ok IMO . If they where honest they would admitt that the output of thier little SET amp for example does not have that much in common with the input signal but they like it very much I would have nothing against that . But instead they make completely bogus claims that such equipment reproduce details that is "obscured" by more conventional equipment and that there are hidden unmeasurable kinds of distortion etc . This is very easy to disprove with a null test btw . And many not so technical audiophiles fall for this kind of argumentation everyone is not an engineer . That's basically fraud . This lack of science has gone full circle several times in audiophiledom so now it's quite possible to buy equipment just as bad as it was in the sixties but at eye watering prices . Much of the top tier stuff produces "nice" colourations that the reviewers then can describe with thier usual wine taster vocabulary . You migth also add the grooving arena for all kinds of DAC's with very unorthodox design principles that are not so transparent but make thier own sound , but are marketed as the new best thing ever . Also equipment with faithfull reproduction ie transparency have no sound if it's own . So "good sound" is a misnomer maybe that's a basic confusion we have to get over the music and artist should sound good and the recording of them likewise . But the things we use to hear them with ,not so much . unless you actually like something else like more bass or more warmth . I'm quite ok with a subset of audio equipment that's deliberately not transparent , if it's honestly marketed as such . Then the buyer can make informed decisions . Do I want to hear the recording as it is or do I have a preference for something else . People listening to club or DJ music has no problems with these concepts ,they are fully aware of that their sound system is a part of the act . Not a conduit for faithfully hear what's on the records . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
I like faithful reproduction, never quite got into the whole tube thing, and i was glad when i got rid of my turntable. :-) i also think one can indeed measure many things quite well and that they provide a reliable indication of the design intent of the engineers, which for me ideally is quite a linear response across frequencies and loads... but we also all know that the *ideal* response can not be achieved yet, even though several designs come quite close. i thoroughly agree a bit is a bit, and jitter discussions over USB or Toslink focus on the wrong side of the issue. when it comes to the analogue side, even within the DAC, more so in amplification, and especially with loudspeakers, wow, there are quite a bit of elements at work. one of the reasons i think one day active loudspeakers will rule the world is because it eliminates a lot of guesswork with matching stuff up. sometimes components don't mix well even when they are all well designed and on paper look like they should sound awesome. analogue is treacherous, and manufacturing tolerances can add up to the point where something is audible even when it comes to 2 amplifiers of the same kind (i did so with MusicalFidelity M1PWR, one clearly noisier than the other, but i would have never known if i'd only received the "bad" one, because it still sounded very good). and speakers... wow. when someone said that models are flawed they were RIGHT. we engineers work with models, and they are quite awesome, but they never reflect a TRUTH. witness speakers. when we measure them, we ultimately measure them by modeling the human ear. does anyone think we have a perfectly accurate model for that? that's why it's important to involve some trained ears in the design of good analog audio equipment. i could download a circuit design for an amp on the internet, go buy the best batch of everything parts, put it together, and still come up with something underwhelming. i have actually done it, albeit many years ago in University. :-) it is not as simple. it is not just a formula. and the reason for that is that there is stuff we don't know about how our hearing works. it is most certainly NOT linear at all. it is hard to model. hence, it is hard to cater to that "perfect sound production" model that is being advanced here, at least as far as the analog part of the design goes, that is, where the soundwave leaves the membrane. and btw try to model the latter perfectly... and you'll prolly win a Nobel. :-) ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware Player System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- Creek Destiny Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- KEF LS50 Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > It might be the "wrong question" if we're writing a scientific paper. > But it's the right question for many people in practice. Yes, agreed; but then the question rather refers to a) (side) constrains like available budget, practicability of the solution and the like b) personal preference/taste again darrenyeats wrote: > This brings us back here. > > superbonham wrote: > > 'High fidelity' music reproduction ... is purely an engineering > > discipline where science and measurements apply - there is simply no > > room for opinions ...> > > There is plenty of room for opinions in hi-fi music reproduction. Many > would say there's room for opinion in most things audio - but even the > most hardened skeptics would acknowledge there is room for opinion > when it comes to things like loudspeakers. So your statement > over-steps the mark. This time *you* didn't take my intended meaning and not even the literal meaning of my posts; from the way you are citing them it even looks a bit like on purpose ;) darrenyeats wrote: > If there is no room for opinion, then please tell me which loudspeaker > science says is the best. The question of the 'best' loudspeaker for a given set-up/environment is a difficult 'optimization problem' that has to take various (scientific and non-scientific) constrains into account. As such there might not be a simple 'scientific' answer to it. Again this still does *not* mean that there wasn't (in principle) a proven scientific methodology to assess a component's (say loudspeaker's) ability *to reproduce sound faithfully*. This is because *faithful reproduction* (i.e. reproduction without distortion, colorization and the like) can be very well measured and compared (unlike reproduction that someone personally prefers). Still the result might not be simple to rate, since one would expect that given two components (say again loudspeakers) of a similar quality, each one might outperform the other with respect to a certain aspect (e.g. overall linearity, faithful and powerful reproduction of very low frequencies, ...) - so one would again have to choose based on personal preferences. But there is a difference between 'I chose this pair of speakers because they (measurably) provide more faithful reproduction of frequencies between 40 and 100 Hz than the other pair [in the same price segment]' or 'I prefer this pair of speakers because they (subjectvely) sound better to me and they also look nicer' and 'these cable lifters improve the sound of every sound system, believe my - I tried it and it worked for me' ... superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
superbonham wrote: > > They do exclude one another in the sense that they address different > questions. There is no scientific way to address 'human opinion' > [preference, taste, mood], because it's just not a scientific category. > There is simply no scientific way to tell whether some audio equipment > or tweak sounds better [right, more intense, ...] to someone - it's just > not the right question asked.* > It might be the "wrong question" if we're writing a scientific paper. But it's the right question for many people in practice. This brings us back here.superbonham wrote: > 'High fidelity' music reproduction ... is purely an engineering > discipline where science and measurements apply - there is simply no > room for opinions ... There is plenty of room for opinions in hi-fi music reproduction. Many would say there's room for opinion in most things audio - but even the most hardened skeptics would acknowledge there is room for opinion when it comes to things like loudspeakers. So your statement over-steps the mark. If is correct, and there is no room for opinion, then please tell me which loudspeaker science says is the best. Darren Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
probedb wrote: > Really? Do you want to tell that to every manufacturer of audio > equipment? Every developer who has created or involved in development of > audio codecs? Experts, professors etc around the world that study this > that they're all wrong? > > People don't seem to be able to differentiate between the psychology of > what we're discussing and building audio equipment and what happens to > the sound. The latter is very well understood. However since you think > you know better I guess you'd best get onto the entire audio community > and tell them they're wrong. I think you didn't take my intended meaning - I was referring to what George E. P. Box famously wrote "Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful". Mynb and alfista explain it in their posts. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Mnyb wrote: > All models are aproximations "wrong" in some sense but they are darn > close, close enogh for all practical engineering if you adopt the rigth > modell . Exactly. They're not "wrong", just degrees of imperfect and through scientific advances they will forever approach perfection. It's been posted here before, but it's still enjoyable reading, 'The Relativity of Wrong' (http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm) alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
SBGK wrote: > and yet the hifi world goes on and people outside of this forum continue > to improve the sound of their systems. And yet the industry goes on and continues to produce better sound for lower price, completely outside internet forums or "hi-end" hifi... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
probedb wrote: > Really? Do you want to tell that to every manufacturer of audio > equipment? Every developer who has created or involved in development of > audio codecs? Experts, professors etc around the world that study this > that they're all wrong? > > People don't seem to be able to differentiate between the psychology of > what we're discussing and building audio equipment and what happens to > the sound. The latter is very well understood. However since you think > you know better I guess you'd best get onto the entire audio community > and tell them they're wrong. All models are aproximations "wrong" in some sense but they are darn close, close enogh for all practical engineering if you adopt the rigth modell . I dont think "all models are wrong" is a usefull argument ofcourse they are , its not much beter than "we dont know verything" ofcourse we dont . The designer of your car are happy with newtonian mechanics and maxwells laws of electromagnetism . They are in some sense "wrong" as no adjustments for relativity and quantum mechanics or higgs bosons are applied ,but the errors are all somewhere in the noise far below the error margins . There are course rough models and more fine grained ones . Engineer knows which one to apply . You dont need to adjust oHms law for gravity for example... unless you plan to use your DAC very close to a neutron star (in which case the atom and molecule deforming magnetic fields would cause some trouble to ) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
You seem to have edited your post while I was typing ... darrenyeats wrote: > What about loudspeakers, venue acoustics. In terms of recording > technology, analogue tape? People's opinions about what sounds better or > worse are very important, but this doesn't diminish the science and > engineering aspect at all. Yes; I think I appreciated this context in my orginal post by saying that superbonham wrote: > It does make sense to argue that an audio component is better suited to > reproduce sound more faithfully than another one if it measures better > or if this improvement can be backed up by double blind testing, though. > Whether this component 'sounds better' to someone or not again is a > different story [...] It's just a matter superbonham wrote: > [...](of personal preference, opinion and taste). darrenyeats wrote: > > Why should proper engineering and human opinion automatically exclude > one another? They don't. They do exclude one another in the sense that they address different questions. There is no scientific way to address 'human opinion' [preference, taste, mood], because it's just not a scientific category. There is simply no scientific way to tell whether some audio equipment or tweak sounds better [right, more intensive, ...] to someone - it's just not he right question asked.* At the same time it's inadequate and useless to tackle the 'ability to reproduce audio faithfully' by opinion or (sighted) personal listening tests. Of course one can express his personal preference and suggest an (unproven) tweak to others, but what exactly is the point? On what basis should I trust him (especially if he sells this tweak for hundreds or thousands of dollars)? * Of course there are various methods (e.g. statistics or analysis of historic evidences) to address scientific aspects of personal opinion (e.g. distribution of a certain opinion in a group of people, development of opinions throughout human history) - but that's not meant above. superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > I'm saying all models are wrong Really? Do you want to tell that to every manufacturer of audio equipment? Every developer who has created or involved in development of audio codecs? Experts, professors etc around the world that study this that they're all wrong? People don't seem to be able to differentiate between the psychology of what we're discussing and building audio equipment and what happens to the sound. The latter is very well understood. However since you think you know better I guess you'd best get onto the entire audio community and tell them they're wrong. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Mnyb wrote: > Thats OK with me thats a fairly resonable idea, except as i have come to > understand it the models we have acomodate for any possible pattern or > wave form ,but in princible . > And it would be quite a leap a modern dac can surpase our own abilities > with say 30dB or something similar ,actually orders of magnitude . > > We can disguss these things it have merits OK. > > But very much of what audiophiles seriusly suggest is agiainst > "fundamental physical theories" ,there is simply no reasoanable > mechanism to explain the effect of many things . > The are on the other hand a lot off pshychological effects that can > account for the perception they experience . So here occams razor rules > . > > These things should be debunked there is no merit of further debate , > you can find such fruitless debate going on for decades... > > *As others said . Listening test is a good way to account for the > unknown ! * but they have to be reasonably controlled to be of any use . > Sighted test as done by most hifi rags provides no real data just noise > . > properly done listening test have most likely unearthed a lots off > issues previusly unknown . > > The transparancy of modern digital electronics is really only constested > by audiophiles much in a similar way as for example climate change or > evolution is only constended by a special subset of rigth wing american > cristians . > Its a special culture where all are of similar opinion , ideas from > outside these special subcultures can seem strange to the one living > rigth in the middle of it . and yet the hifi world goes on and people outside of this forum continue to improve the sound of their systems. Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/ SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Mnyb wrote: > But very much of what audiophiles seriusly suggest is agiainst > "fundamental physical theories" ,there is simply no reasoanable > mechanism to explain the effect of many things. Indeed. And here I draw an analogy to, of all things, UFO's. Yes, there are serious UFO researchers out there. But they are very quick to help discredit ludicrous claims, as they realize that the nut cases and frauds undermine the credibility of their chosen field. Do we see the same among audiophiles? Do we see a lot of "serious but rational" audiophiles, who argue for effects that could be possible, but who strongly help discredit the ones that are clearly foo? Not really. The "open minded" audiophiles are open to pretty much anything, independent of if it makes scientific sense or not. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > I'm saying all models are wrong, some models are useful. And models > develop over time as evidence is gathered. > > Here's a thought experiment. If it was shown that people could > distinguish distortion of certain types at X db lower than the currently > accepted levels, when that distortion modulates a newly invented sound > pattern, then the world of science would certainly *not* be in uproar. > That's because the result *would break no fundamental physical > theories*. It might break the stubbornness of some people on this forum, > though I doubt it, but there would be otherwise "nothing to see here". Thats OK with me thats a fairly resonable idea, except as i have come to understand it the models we have acomodate for any possible pattern or wave form ,but in princible . And it would be quite a leap a modern dac can surpase our own abilities with say 30dB or something similar ,actually orders of magnitude . We can disguss these things it have merits OK. But very much of what audiophiles seriusly suggest is agiainst "fundamental physical theories" ,there is simply no reasoanable mechanism to explain the effect of many things . The are on the other hand a lot off pshychological effects that can account for the perception they experience . So here occams razor rules . These things should be debunked there is no merit of further debate , you can find such fruitless debate going on for decades... *As others said . Listening test is a good way to account for the unknown ! * but they have to be reasonably controlled to be of any use . Sighted test as done by most hifi rags provides no real data just noise . properly done listening test have most likely unearthed a lots off issues previusly unknown . The transparancy of modern digital electronics is really only constested by audiophiles much in a similar way as for example climate change or evolution is only constended by a special subset of rigth wing american cristians . Its a special culture where all are of similar opinion , ideas from outside these special subcultures can seem strange to the one living rigth in the middle of it . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > If it was shown that people could distinguish distortion of certain > types at X db lower than the currently accepted levels, when that > distortion modulates a newly invented sound pattern, then the world of > science would certainly *not* be in uproar. To show anything about the capabilities of human hearing would require scientific methodology. Provided the findings are published and made available for others to verify it will of course be a welcome addition to the body of knowledge. Of course the science world would not object to a piece of adequately performed piece of scientific work. alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Wait. Everyone accepts current loudspeakers have various audible > compromises. True. darrenyeats wrote: > Of course, designing and building speakers is a scientific and > engineering discipline [...] Correct. darrenyeats wrote: > [...] but human perception and opinion is at its very heart. No. I'd rather say that (assumed) imperfections of human audio perception might be played on to adjust compromises one has to make while designing audio equipment in a way that minimizes their audible consequences. This does not imply by any means that one could'nt tell (at least in principle) by well understood scientific criteria if some component is better at faithfully reproducing (recording, storing, transmitting) audio than another. darrenyeats wrote: > > Everyone would say the same about audio tape engineering before digital > came along. These spheres do NOT automatically exclude one another. If > people can hear a difference, then the kind of difference they do/don't > like is very relevant to audio gear, given that its purpose is human > enjoyment, and it will inform and direct the science and engineering. > > What you mean to say is, that audibility limits have been achieved with > certain types of audio equipment, or that you believe this to be the > case, or that current scientific evidence indicates this. That's a very > different matter IMO. Thanks for trying to interpret my post, but I was perfectly meaning what I was writing (quite literally). To extend my original post I'd like to point out that whenever someone claims that a component or tweak (e.g. 'magical cable lifters') provides an objective audible improvement (i.e. comprehensible and meaningful to others) he has 'the burden of proof ' by equally comprehensible and meaningful (i.e. scientific) means. If he can't or does not want to provide such proof he is of course free to state this claim as a belief or personal opinion, but it then just does not qualify as an objective, provable fact. You can exchange opinions and personal impressions (about whatever topic) endlessly with only little to no progress. We do have high quality (affordable) audio reproduction equipment today (that is better than years or decades ago) thanks to factual, i.e. comprehensible and measurable progress based on science and engineering. I do admit that there is a very interesting scientific discipline of human audio perception. While current science seems to have a quite good understanding on how humans (and other animals) hear, the different processes involved are complex. Also scientific analysis mostly relies - by very definition - on empirical research and as such isn't as 'seizable' as for example the sampling theorem. So I (as well as most of the other 'audophile sceptics' I assume) would be happy to discuss the _relevance_ of construction compromises (e.g. jitter) or deliberate (mostly well thought-trough) design decisions (e.g. red book sampling frequency of 44.1 kHz) for human audio perception. But even with these topics rational argumentation is necessary; if you cannot (yet and/or fully) explain an audible effect systematically, blind testing is an approved method to scrutinize/validate such a claimed effect. superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
superbonham wrote: > > 'High fidelity' music reproduction, i.e. faithful recording, storage, > transmission and play back of audio is purely an egnineering discipline > where science and measurements apply - there is simply no room for > opinions and irrationality here. > This is patently not the case. For example, everyone accepts current loudspeakers have various audible compromises. Of course, designing and building speakers is a scientific and engineering discipline but human perception and opinion is at its very heart. What you mean to say is, that audibility limits have been achieved with certain types of audio equipment, or that you believe this to be the case, or that current scientific evidence indicates this. That's a very different assertion IMO. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
probedb wrote: > So you're saying we'll be going backwards by deciding that science is > wrong? I'm saying all models are wrong, some models are useful. And models develop over time as evidence is gathered. Here's a thought experiment. If it was shown that people could distinguish distortion of certain types at X db lower than the currently accepted levels, when that distortion modulates a certain sound pattern yet to be discovered, then the world of science would certainly *not* be in uproar. That's because the result *would break no fundamental physical theories*. It might break the stubbornness of some people on this forum, though I doubt it, but very little else. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > What does a unicorn fart smell like and would one be able to tell it > apart of a fairy fart in a double blind test? Smell notwithstanding, by it's > mere force a unicorn fart will completely lift the veils. alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
pablolie wrote: > > i do believe these days one can put together a very, very nice sounding > system with a few basic and quite cost efficient devices. I fully agree; we are living in good times ... pablolie wrote: > > but i also immensely enjoy the exercise of being a tad irrational here > and there. passion is always an irrational choice, but how tragic is a > life that only and exclusively sticks to rationality alone... :-) Of course there are siutations in life where irrationality, opinions, chance, mood etc. play an important role and listening to music clearly belongs here. As an example I cannot tell why I sometimes prefer say Tingvall Trio over Esbjörn Svensson Trio or Trombone Shorty over Nils Landgren; this is clearly a question of opinion, 'emotional state' and mood. To me it seems important to realize when to apply rationality and when to allow yourself to be a bit more irrational. 'High fidelity' music reproduction, i.e. faithful recording, storage, transmission and play back of audio is purely an egnineering discipline where science and measurements apply - there is simply no room for opinions and irrationality here. Of course everyone is free to decide that he likes the design or sound of a specific piece of equipment (and to pay whatever amount of money to get it); this is clearly the domain of personal preference, taste and opinion, though. And of course one can post his personal preference or expierence with this equipment and the personal sonic impression - but this will be no more than a personal 'testimonial'. This especially means that it is not 'transferable', i.e. does not translate to others. The beauty of the scientific approach (and actually one of its constituting features) is that results hold true anywhere, anytime and for anyone (to the same extent as they did initially). So just as it makes no sense to argue that Tingvall Trio is 'better' than Esbjörn Svensson Trio it is pointless to argue that a piece of equipment is better than another one based on one's personal sonic impression alone. It does make sense to argue that an audio component is better suited to reproduce sound more faithfully than another one if it measures better or if this improvement can be backed up by double blind testing, though. Whether this component 'sounds better' to someone or not again is a different story (of personal preference, opinion and taste). If I were to summarize the criticism of the 'audiophile sceptics' here (and on other fora) I'd say that they (rightly) question the habit of 'audiophile apologists' to argue in the vein outlined above. So instead of expressing their personal impression or preference they try to 'prove' that some component is objectively better (in a scientific or engineering sense) without applying the necessary scientific means to do so. Just my two cents. superbonham's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22540 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Evidence-based reasoning isn't the same as turning out to be right in > the end. So you're saying we'll be going backwards by deciding that science is wrong? 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
it comes down to separating topics that, in my opinion, are different, namely (1) basic engineering (2) plausible optimizations (3) personal "audio beliefs", personal taste (4) purchasing preference i just don't think (1) automatically results in a direct, linear (4) choice. i find it funny that several people seem to read Stereophile in far more detail than i do, simply to then ridicule it. if i don't enjoy a mag, hey, i wouldn't waste time or money on it. life's too short. :-) whether we admit it or not, all of us who engage in this audiophile discussion are irrational propeller-heads to 90% of people out there, who do just fine with an iPhone and some beats headphones (shiver). i read Stereophile even though i totally agree it can get totally over the top. i *do* like reading (and pics) about some audio jewelry, just like i like reading about something like the Bugatti Veyron even though i'd never buy it. i like the measurements. but to mention a semi-recent example where measurements and test didn't add up, check out the Totem Dreamcatcher review. they are not esoteric, expensive speakers. the reviewer enjoyed them a lot, the measurements indicated some resonance. i ordered some and kept them, i find they do color some, but in a way in enjoy it quite a bit for my secondary systems (i own 2 pairs of Dreamcatchers, one for the bedroom and one for a cabin). i do believe these days one can put together a very, very nice sounding system with a few basic and quite cost efficient devices. but i also immensely enjoy the exercise of being a tad irrational here and there. passion is always an irrational choice, but how tragic is a life that only and exclusively sticks to rationality alone... :-) ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware Player System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- Creek Destiny Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- KEF LS50 Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: wirkstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > In my recent experience, this forum tends to be skeptics agreeing with > each other and mocking "backward" individuals. It's all far too > self-congratulatory and repetitive for my taste, which is why I'm not > here that often. > > I think you guys need to be challenged a bit. That's healthy. > > Nobody's going to change their mind about life based on words typed on a > forum. Remember this is about social contact ... even when there's a big > bust up, people just like interacting with other people! Try to leave a > bit of space for discussion by keeping your mind open a little. That's > how conversations are given room to develop. > > In 2054 maybe someone will discover something about audio which changes > the goal posts. Evidence-based reasoning isn't the same as turning out > to be right in the end. it changes all the time and thats the point :) sometimes we get paradigm shifts , but audio is a very very mature science and we can easily make at least electronics thats transparent to us already and our biology evolves very slowly, speakers is another thing the limit here is usually interior design fashion and price but regardless they always make thier own sound so we have to choose. When fashion allows for large enough boxes we can make physics work for us instead of against us (The oposite of Bose acustimess ,horrible ) . And audio is only a subset of electronics in general , I do see paradigm shifts on the way how would a future microprocessor actually work for example , qbits optical who knows ?? but no one is handwiring silver transformers or similar . And electronics is a subset of physics which in turn is very well know on the day to day scale that concerns our daily activities . dont expect "dark matter" or new exotic particles to change audio ... If Ive i live 2054 ill be back to be proven wrong ! Btw dont get caught up in the product of the month in audio magazines and their illusion of constant progress .. things dont change that fast . I'm just a bit saddened that my fine hobby is slowly turned into the equivalent of what Astrology is to Astronomy there is a common ancestry but one of these have made astonishing progress while the other just is the same as it ever was . Pseudoscience cant make real progress as the methods are flawed you can discover things by luck and progress slowly but thats nothing compared to real progress . There are many real things to investigate , todays AV products are astonishingly complex and they have flaws here and there such things are seldom discovered , not many reviewers goes trough the paces to really scrutinize products . When the DVD was launched there was a revival when some reviewers stepped up to really investigate picture quality for example . And you can convince audiophiles to think different I was one of them . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > In 2054 maybe someone will discover something about audio which changes > the goal posts. Evidence-based reasoning isn't the same as turning out > to be right in the end. More than happy to be *proven* wrong. But just someone saying "but I *know* it is so" doesn't cut it. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
In my recent experience, this forum tends to be skeptics agreeing with each other and mocking "backward" individuals. It's all far too self-congratulatory and repetitive for my taste, which is why I'm not here that often. I think you guys need to be challenged a bit. That's healthy. Nobody's going to change their mind about life based on words typed on a forum. Remember this is about social contact ... even when there's a big bust up, people just like interacting with their fellows! Try to leave a bit of space for discussion by keeping your mind open a little. That's how conversations are allowed to develop. In 2054 maybe someone will discover something about audio which changes the goal posts. Evidence-based reasoning isn't the same as turning out to be right in the end. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
cliveb wrote: > Audiophilia is nothing to do with rational or scientific debate. It is a > religious belief system whose proponents' behaviour in audio forums is > like Jehovah's Witnesses constantly knocking on your front door. They > cannot be reasoned with. Engaging with them here is the equivalent of > standing on the doorstep arguing with a nutter (rather than politely > saying "no thanks" and closing the door). Hmm... I wonder what the audiophile equivalent would be to the copy of "The Communist Manifesto" I used to keep in my front hallway just in case of Jehovah's Witnesses showing up? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote: > I have seen that happen on a bunch of forums. Almost seems like there is > a small core bunch of hardcore audiophile foo-ists who feel the need to > spread the message, and descend on forums as a group, supporting each > other. Audiophilia is nothing to do with rational or scientific debate. It is a religious belief system whose proponents' behaviour in audio forums is like Jehovah's Witnesses constantly knocking on your front door. They cannot be reasoned with. Engaging with them here is the equivalent of standing on the doorstep arguing with a nutter (rather than politely saying "no thanks" and closing the door). Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Ralph, > I was suggesting a mix rather than lurching from one extreme to the > other! Hey there Darren. I think this forum has an interesting dynamic. From the start, it seems to me that anyone getting into the Squeezebox system must have been quite comfortable with computer audio and saw the potential of the computer-based server system early. Even today, though not difficult to get a server running, we still have to jump through a few hoops to get it working well and there's no simple turn-key package marketing to the mainstream like Sonos or Bluesound or the myriad DLNA systems places like Computer Audiophile seem to be pushing these days (and the manufacturer influence is clear). I always thought that this forum was "objective leaning" from the start. Even just looking at the description with its wry sense of humor (Pear Audio, Amazing Randi...). Back in the day when the original SlimDevices folks were visiting, it was great hearing from and seeing the interaction with the engineering brains behind the system! I see a few comments from folks about the lack of a moderator. It doesn't really seem that we need one. Compared to some of the "real" audiophile sites out there, the traffic here isn't big. Although we can all get a little childish once awhile, it doesn't seem like there's any desire to get personal or mean spirited. One sign to me that this is the case is that responses tend to be relatively thought out rather than quick snipes at the person. That seems healthy. I surely think that there's plenty of opportunity to talk about subjectivity in audiophile land... But few seem to want to talk about that stuff! I can admit that even though I can measure a reasonably flat response in my room, I like to turn the sub a few dB's up to add "oomph" to the sound... Anyone object? Probably not because we can all recognize that this is rather trivial and -obviously -subjective. I can also say in no uncertain terms that a speaker like the DeVore Orangutan to me looks very ugly and my wife would not be impressed if I brought something like that home. Yet look at all the praise this speaker's appearance gets... Would I rain on their lovefest if they were to start a thread? No. Why should I care? In a nutshell, subjectivism really only gets contentious when it's about the perceived sound quality and how it "seems to" sound better in the absence of scientific/objective investigation or comments made that seem totally implausible and unrealistic. And this is where opinions get really strong and potentially nasty. The fact that this forum has no policy on needing to present ABX results as some kind of pre-requisite to voice one's opinion nor is there an automatic ban on discussion around double blind testing, nor are we all that technical like maybe on an Audio DIY forum, nor are we policed or biased by the equipment manufacturer, makes this forum rather interesting. The folks here obviously keep track of developments in the audiophile world and truly interesting developments will get reported and discussed here in a way that seems realistic rather than hyped. Nothing too extreme I think... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Mnyb wrote: > But then something happened and the forum basically got "invaded" by > some very confused people claiming just about anything like that LMS on > different OS sound different ? Weird software mods etc the list of crazy > stuff grew exponentially. I have seen that happen on a bunch of forums. Almost seems like there is a small core bunch of hardcore audiophile foo-ists who feel the need to spread the message, and descend on forums as a group, supporting each other. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Ralph, > I was suggesting a mix rather than lurching from one extreme to the > other! Well my perspective is that in some areas you can't do compromises sometimes the " subjectivist " ( bad word IMO we ar all subjective when we enjoy our music ) are simply wrong . It s more like a political solution , how do you compromise with a person that believes that the earth is flat ? Agree on a slightly curved disc as a compromise solution ? Some believes presented as audio truths are actually on par with this . I also put it in broader perspective with alternative medicine and other pseudoscience , it's a part of a serious problem . This forum actually had a quite mixed bag of different people some years ago actually the "balance" you strive after. But then something happened and the forum basically got "invaded" by some very confused people claiming just about anything like that LMS on different OS sound different ? Weird software mods etc the list of crazy stuff grew exponentially . This actually drew away many good forum members that have contributed massively in the past I still miss them they wrote 10 times better posts than me . The forum was practically flooded with disinformation and bunk ... So now I choose to voice my own scepticism , so if someone says that his new Ethernet cables sound less digital with blacker background and less edge I would say "really" and ask for some rational explanation . The reason why a science based and slightly questioning aproach get intrerpreted as "extreme" is the actuall state of high end audio it has driven itself into a corner where anything goes , I've yet to see unicorns but it won't be long If you got to your MD and he gave you a rattle and some Peebles against your illness you would be rightfully upsett ! I just suggest that you get equally upsett when someone preach the blessings of cable lifters quantum purifiers and magic dots or whatnot :) I can actually agree to that I get somewhat suckered in to participate in all thoses posts and they get a bit repetitive sometimes . I rarely starts a post , can't do them as good as for example Archimago who often has some really enlightening stuff to share on his blog . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Ralph, > I was suggesting a mix rather than lurching from one extreme to the > other! Good idea. Here's my suggestion - most of the digital side of audio should be objective with healthy bits of subjective thrown in and most of the analog side of audio should be subjective with healthy bits of objective thrown in. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > > Speaking of subjectivists and their oh so lively and real forums have > you checked out the ultra subjective Stereophile forum > (http://forum.stereophile.com/forum) lately? Ralph, I was suggesting a mix rather than lurching from one extreme to the other! Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > What does a unicorn fart smell like Less "digital"? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Digital signals yes, audio isn't all digital though. > > To quote Julf, because of what you write? Since you did mention things that I write then perhaps you somehow missed all the times I've written that digital audio, by which I mean the digital side of digital audio, as in the little ones and zeros, by design behaves quite differently from analog audio. With that in mind I've also written many times how audiophiles all too often conflate the two sides of audio (digital/analog) and try to impose analog issues onto the digital side. For example the never ending insistence on expensive digital cables. darrenyeats wrote: > Put down the burning torches and let the subjectivists back into this > forum, or I predict you won't have a real forum anymore. Speaking of subjectivists and their oh so lively and real forums have you checked out the ultra subjective Stereophile forum (http://forum.stereophile.com/forum) lately? If that's what a real forum looks like, then no thanks I'll just stick with this more objective zombie forum. Remember the Stereophile forum is still supported by the magazine whereas this forum is not supported by Logitech, just like the entire Squeezebox line of equipment, and this forum is still much livelier than the Stereophile forum. Julf wrote: > We aren't blocking them from the forum - but we do challenge unsupported > and unjustified statements. I find that that leads to a more real forum > than one that allow all unicorns to fart, and bans anyone daring to > challenge that. What does a unicorn fart smell like and would one be able to tell it apart of a fairy fart in a double blind test? Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
darrenyeats wrote: > Put down the burning torches and let the subjectivists back into this > forum, or I predict you won't have a real forum anymore. We aren't blocking them from the forum - but we do challenge unsupported and unjustified statements. I find that that leads to a more real forum than one that allow all unicorns to fart, and bans anyone daring to challenge that. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > Electricity and digital signals behave the same whether they are in a > computer or a piece of high end audio equipment. > Digital signals yes, audio isn't all digital though. ralphpnj wrote: > > Now how do you know whether or not I've listened to or owned other > digital front ends in my system, and if so, whether or not my mind was > blown? Simple answer, you don't. > To quote Julf, because of what you write? Mnyb wrote: > It's even simpler it tells of there is a real difference or not to begin > with . A blind test can tell if you if there's a difference. A negative result is a little harder to interpret unless you have a watertight test, and that's much harder to argue in the real world. Even a negative SIGHTED result is not proof of something being not hearable ... is it? There are so many factors about the test (sighted or blind) which need to be controlled and known before having confidence in a negative result. Just "blind test" doesn't cut it. Julf wrote: > Even worse, anybody can spout whatever silly opinion, and then shout > "you can not deny my subjective observations". > Well ... you can't! That's life. Mnyb wrote: > It would greatly benefit our hobby if equipment where designed with more > science and less woo . > Woo is there because people are willing to pay for woo, I suppose. ralphpnj wrote: > Digital audio has thrown the world of high end audio for a loop and so > far they have not been able to recover. $300 DACs that test, measure and > sound as good as $30,000 DACs and $5 USB cables that test, measure and > sound as good as $500 USB cables - what is the world coming to?!?!? And > more importantly - where are the advertising dollars going to come > from?!?!? IMO (this is open to interpretation!) the best two measuring DACs on Stereophile are the Weiss 202 and dCS Vivaldi, so more money is required for top performance, putting aside audibility for a moment. ralphpnj wrote: > Stereophile has included measurements with many their equipment reviews > for quite some time and whenever the measurements run counter to the > subjective reviewers conclusions the measurements are ALWAYS disregarded > and often deemed faulty in some way. I applaud Stereophile for putting the measurements in - I'd miss them if they disappeared. Mnyb wrote: > Here is quite the opposite this wonderful guy have made a new video on > basic digital signal behaviour http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml take the > time its very very good Great video that. Have a good day everyone! Put down the burning torches and let the subjectivists back into this forum, or I predict you won't have a real forum anymore. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Mnyb wrote: > Here is quite the opposite this wonderful guy have made a new video on > basic digital signal behaviour http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml take the > time its very very good Thanks for the link. I have watched this video before and it is very informative and, more importantly, fact and science based. Living in the USA, which I know many of you do not, I have long ago learned that those pesky little things called facts and science have no place in US politics, media, advertising and, of course, high end audio. The only thing that matters in high end audio is MONEY, just it is the only thing that matters in politics, media and advertising. The good thing about high end audio is that it is still possible to assemble a very, very nice sounding audio system that adheres to facts and science. I wish the same could be said for politics, media and advertising but alas this is not the case. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > Correct - this nonsense was written by these two quacks. > > > > We only hope that the inclusion of "numbers and 'technical' stuff" in > the high end audio rags will lead to a "more scientific approach" but I > strongly believe that it is a false hope. Stereophile has included > measurements with many their equipment reviews for quite some time and > whenever the measurements run counter to the subjective reviewers > conclusions the measurements are ALWAYS disregarded and often deemed > faulty in some way. It is never, ever even considered to the opposite, > i.e. that the subjective findings are somehow flawed. As for TAS, as > stated above, after the original "Computer Music Audio Quality" series > was basically laughed at at anyone with even a modest understanding of > digital audio, what do they do? Why they bring back the same two masters > of misinformation for another assault on all things scientific and > reasonable. In other words, all TAS is doing is trying (and completely > failing) to use make believe numbers to lend weight their nonsense. > Reminds me of Stereophile's attempt to use a codified language of > "accepted" audiophile terms to give an air of seriousness to what is > basically a boatload of nonsense. > > If only the old adage of "live by the sword, die by the sword" held true > in these cases, but unfortunately that is not the case since the adage > "figures don't lie, but liars do figure" is what we actually get. Here is quite the opposite this wonderful guy have made a new video on basic digital signal behaviour http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml take the time its very very good Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Archimago wrote: > OMG! > > Amazing. Was this written by Dr. Charles Zeilig and Jay Clawson of > "Computer Music Audio Quality" series fame from back in late 2011-early > 2012? > > The scoring system reminds me of what they did in those articles. Correct - this nonsense was written by these two quacks. Archimago wrote: > I think it's fascinating that they're trying to get numbers and > 'technical' stuff into their pages. Perhaps they are seeing that the > readership is demanding more of that especially as audio becomes more > computing based... > > Even though it's misinformation at this time, it actually in time could > be an opportunity for acceptance of a more scientific approach. > Potentially easier to counter this kind of nonsense than arguing with > someone who feels audio is all about subjective voodoo and almost > 'spiritual' beliefs, rejecting anything to do with quantification or the > mere idea that sound quality can be measured. We only hope that the inclusion of "numbers and 'technical' stuff" in the high end audio rags will lead to a "more scientific approach" but I strongly believe that it is a false hope. Stereophile has included measurements with many their equipment reviews for quite some time and whenever the measurements run counter to the subjective reviewers conclusions the measurements are ALWAYS disregarded and often deemed faulty in some way. It is never, ever even considered to the opposite, i.e. that the subjective findings are somehow flawed. As for TAS, as stated above, after the original "Computer Music Audio Quality" series was basically laughed at at anyone with even a modest understanding of digital audio, what do they do? Why they bring back the same two masters of misinformation for another assault on all things scientific and reasonable. In other words, all TAS is doing is trying (and completely failing) to use make believe numbers to lend weight their nonsense. Reminds me of Stereophile's attempt to use a codified language of "accepted" audiophile terms to give an air of seriousness to what is basically a boatload of nonsense. If only the old adage of "live by the sword, die by the sword" held true in these cases, but unfortunately that is not the case since the adage "figures don't lie, but liars do figure" is what we actually get. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Archimago wrote: > For $2500 this new A&K model is supposed to be 1-ohm output impedance. > Since it's a Michael Lavorgna review in his column, no measurements. That would be the real benefit of the design :) would be nice if some measurment surfaced... Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Mnyb wrote: > Astell and kern is basically iriver . stereophile has measured thier > older ak100 for 700$ for this you get 22ohm output impedance for > headphones ?? In that perspective even mentioning 16 vs 24 bit 48k vs > 192k is just plain silly. For $2500 this new A&K model is supposed to be 1-ohm output impedance. Since it's a Michael Lavorgna review in his column, no measurements. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Astell and kern is basically iriver . stereophile has measured thier older ak100 for 700$ for this you get 22ohm output impedance for headphones ?? In that perspective even mentioning 16 vs 24 bit 48k vs 192k is just plain silly. Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
I think it's fascinating that they're trying to get numbers and 'technical' stuff into their pages. Perhaps they are seeing that the readership is demanding more of that especially as audio becomes more computing based... Even though it's misinformation at this time, it actually in time could be an opportunity for acceptance of a more scientific approach. Potentially easier to counter this kind of nonsense than arguing with someone who feels audio is all about subjective voodoo and almost 'spiritual' beliefs, rejecting anything to do with quantification or the mere idea that sound quality can be measured. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Apesbrain wrote: > Not to be left out, -The Absolute Sound- this month (Issue #246 - > October 2014) features the next installment in its "New Methods for > Quantifying Sonic Performance" series. The article includes the > definitive scale of bitrate vs. sound quality. Did you know 24/192 > downsampled to 24/48 sounds 37.5% better (165 vs. 120) than CD upsampled > to 24/48? The Absolute Sound remains the absolute gold standard for high end audio misinformation. I love that fact that they wrap their pseudo-science in numbers just like actual real science. TAS really goes the extra mile to make sure that their advertisers have plenty of clueless people waiting to buy their products. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Apesbrain wrote: > Not to be left out, -The Absolute Sound- this month (Issue #246 - > October 2014) features the next installment in its "New Methods for > Quantifying Sonic Performance" series. The article includes the > definitive scale of bitrate vs. sound quality. Did you know 24/192 > downsampled to 24/48 sounds 37.5% better (165 vs. 120) than CD upsampled > to 24/48? OMG! Amazing. Was this written by Dr. Charles Zeilig and Jay Clawson of "Computer Music Audio Quality" series fame from back in late 2011-early 2012? The scoring system reminds me of what they did in those articles. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > Nice work, Archimago! > > I do wish you had spent a little time tearing a hole in Dudley's straw > man anti-double blind testing argument. He starts off with a bang by > comparing dbts to side-by-side close inspections used to identify > forgeries from originals in the art world. Kind of like comparing apples > to giant squids but perhaps I'm being a bit too objective. His next > distortion is his insistence that all dbts consist of 15 seconds of > music being constantly switched back and forth. WTF? Is that one of the > basic requirements of double blind tests because if so, then that rule > is missing in my copy of "Robert's Rules of Double Blind Audio > Testing". > > I've said it before, I'll say it again now and I'm sure I'll say it many > more times: Digital audio has thrown the world of high end audio for a > loop and so far they have not been able to recover. $300 DACs that test, > measure and sound as good as $30,000 DACs and $5 USB cables that test, > measure and sound as good as $500 USB cables - what is the world coming > to?!?!? And more importantly - where are the advertising dollars going > to come from?!?!? Hey man. I'll leave that DBT issue to you. :-) One could go through each sentence and write a paragraph! Reading the article by Dudley, I was truly blown away by the immaturity and ego. I wonder what got into him to decide to write this stuff for the column. Did someone on an audio forum insult him or something?! Maybe some advertiser needed to hire a "hit man" to put that stuff out... Funny that Guttenberg creates this image of the old audiophile clutching to "Dark Side" and "Aja" and I can imagine Art Dudley personifying this grumpy old audiophile who's holding on to those old LPs among ideas he apparently consolidated in his mind decades ago of approximately the same vintage. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Not to be left out, -The Absolute Sound- this month (Issue #246 - October 2014) features the next installment in its "New Methods for Quantifying Sonic Performance" series. The article includes the definitive scale of bitrate vs. sound quality. Did you know 24/192 downsampled to 24/48 sounds 37.5% better (165 vs. 120) than CD upsampled to 24/48? Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Archimago wrote: > Some interesting articles from that issue indeed :-) > > I just put up a post on the blog site to "explore" a couple of them... Nice work, Archimago! I do wish you had spent a little time tearing a hole in Dudley's straw man anti-double blind testing argument. He starts off with a bang by comparing dbts to side-by-side close inspections used to identify forgeries from originals in the art world. Kind of like comparing apples to giant squids but perhaps I'm being a bit too objective. His next distortion is his insistence that all dbts consist of 15 seconds of music being constantly switched back and forth. WTF? Is that one of the basic requirements of double blind tests because if so, then that rule is missing in my copy of "Robert's Rules of Double Blind Audio Testing". I've said it before, I'll say it again now and I'm sure I'll say it many more times: Digital audio has thrown the world of high end audio for a loop and so far they have not been able to recover. $300 DACs that test, measure and sound as good as $30,000 DACs and $5 USB cables that test, measure and sound as good as $500 USB cables - what is the world coming to?!?!? And more importantly - where are the advertising dollars going to come from?!?!? Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > From the "I can't make this stuff up" department comes the latest bit of > nonsense from the November 2014 issue of Stereophile. Writing about the > new Astell & Kern AK240 portable audio player, Michael Lavorgna has this > to say: > > "The Astell & Kern AK240 ($2500) is milled from a solid billet of > aircraft-grade duralumin, and each player undergoes a 12-step process > for the gunmetal-finished casework alone." > > As I said, I can't make this stuff up (but I wish I could!). > > Also of interest (from a comedy standpoint only) is Art Dudley's piece > in which he used a strawman argument to try and debunk blind and double > blind listening tests. Truly a knee slapping howler and sure to put up > on the Stereophile web site in short order since the piece can now be > worn like a badge (milled from a solid billet of aircraft-grade > duralumin) by all those poor audiophiles. Some interesting articles from that issue indeed :-) I just put up a post on the blog site to "explore" a couple of them... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > Not on the internet where anonymity leads to incivility And the real irony is that you use an anonymous handle, while I post under my real name. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > The new Astell & Kern looks incredible. And yet my Sansa Clip+ with rockbox which already measures incredibly well probably performs no worse than it. Yet it cost me £30. Oh, maybe £6 for the 16GB microSD card. I know which I'd rather have. But it isn't pretty so no way is an "audiophile" going to go anywhere near it. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote: > No, we are in a golden era of great, affordable audio gear. That has > driven the "hi-end" to become a luxury goods market. Very true indeed. Julf wrote: > No, because the industry that makes all this possible is not the > audiophile hi-end industry (that only puts standard circuits in fancy > boxes) but the electronics industry that produces the circuits, chips > and components that make affordable, high-quality products possible. > > Exactly. Engineering. As practised by engineers (who design chips, > circuits and algorithms). Not "designers" who put the circuits in fancy, > "aerospace-grade" aluminium cases. Engineers, hooray for engineers! (full disclosure: I am a mechanical engineer) Mnyb wrote: > I do want the old times back when this hobby made sense . I think its > time for a reboot :) I think that this little sub-forum, which should be called "Formerly known as Audiophiles" is a good start for that much needed reboot. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
It would greatly benefit our hobby if equipment where designed with more science and less woo . Ity would not cost so much probaly 1/10 , most ultra high end stuff would be obsolote , once reasonable build quality is reached the deciding factors will be features and conectivity integration output power software etc . Audiphiles would not give such a crazy impression listening to cable lifters and seruisly consider the sonic diffrences in AC wall outlets . This would take us back to the golden days before 1$ speaker cables ,where we talked speaker placements amp power and other sensible things . The hobby would once again be accesible to reasonable people :) So suddenly the field is widened and a whole lot more people could join . Win Win Then we could start to talk about music and actually listen to music and comune about our hobby . A good example is the squeezebox as a digital transport , they are all ok ,we have a lotjfun from its extensive features discovering our music . and its based in its software . I think todays high end is suicide , it getting more expensive each year and atracts less people and is less science based for each year, it turned itself into a cult. Heck just reading about the brand "Audio Note" have probably scared more people away (and their money ) than the sales that brand ever made :) An example of nutty design in high end imo . The mere existence of 1$ speaker cables probably hurt the hobby more than it gains and scares people away . I do want the old times back when this hobby made sense . I think its time for a reboot :) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > Not on the internet where anonymity leads to incivility. Anyone can > masquerade as a subject matter expert. Even worse, anybody can spout whatever silly opinion, and then shout "you can not deny my subjective observations". > Winning hearts and minds, discovery and curiosity are evils here, for > example. That's what you say, but anyone can say that. Do you have any examples or evidence? > This isn't an audiophile forum now if it ever was. Indeed. And that is not a bad thing. As Ethan Winer observes - 'The Trouble With Audio Forums is that they Can't Handle The Truth' (http://ethanwiner.com/forums.htm) > we are so fortunate to be in a golden era of hi-end gear. No, we are in a golden era of great, affordable audio gear. That has driven the "hi-end" to become a luxury goods market. > it's accepted here that the industry which makes our hobby so rewarding > are full of criminals and crazies. No, because the industry that makes all this possible is not the audiophile hi-end industry (that only puts standard circuits in fancy boxes) but the electronics industry that produces the circuits, chips and components that make affordable, high-quality products possible. > The new Astell & Kern looks incredible. Indeed, if looks is what you care about. > The engineering on the inside is what will deliver great sound quality. Exactly. Engineering. As practised by engineers (who design chips, circuits and algorithms). Not "designers" who put the circuits in fancy, "aerospace-grade" aluminium cases. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > Not on the internet where anonymity leads to incivility. Anyone can > masquerade as a subject matter expert. Winning hearts and minds, > discovery and curiosity are evils here, for example. This isn't an > audiophile forum now if it ever was. It's a shame because, in reality, > we are so fortunate to be in a golden era of hi-end gear. And it's not > only the gear, but the formats and music- vinyl, hi-rez PCM, DSD, SACDs, > redbook CDs. Music recorded in the 50s into the 70s, 80s and even 90s > has never sounded better. Yet, it's accepted here that the industry > which makes our hobby so rewarding are full of criminals and crazies. > > If everyone wanted the build quality of the rather cheaply made > Transporter, then that's all we'd have. The new Astell & Kern looks > incredible. The engineering on the inside is what will deliver great > sound quality. What gives!? You keep on missing the point: The world of high end audio features plenty of good ideas and lots of great sounding equipment. Over the years the various assaults at producing state of the art audio equipment truly has resulted in advancing the overall sound quality of all audio equipment. Hopefully this will continue well into the future. That being said, the world of high end audio also features plenty of dishonest individuals promoting FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) in an effort to make MONEY! The latest craze to hit high end audio is DSD. Why do I say that the DSD craze is pure FUD, well a simple search of the internet reveals all one needs to know about why DSD is just more FUD for the simple reason that it is nearly impossible to edit DSD in its native format. I say "nearly impossible" because there is a way to edit DSD but this requires a very special machine of there are a few in existance. What this means that in order to edit something recorded in DSD one must first convert the DSD files to PCM then edit the PCM files and finally convert the edited PCM files back to DSD. So basically there are two kinds of "pure" DSD recordings, the first being analog recordings converted to DSD with no editing and the second being recordings made to DSD with no post production editing. Al other DSD recordings are pure BS. So please tell me why the editors and writers of the various high end audio magazines and web site do not make this easy to find information about DSD recordings available to their readers? Because this simple little FACT would mean the end of what has so far proven to be a nice little income stream as one kool-aid drinking audiophile after another coughs up money for the latest DSD capable DAC. And you wonder why I am always so negative towards the high end audio press, come on the evidence is right there staring you in the face but yet you and many other audiophiles still worship these dishonest and/or ignorant individuals. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote: > So you feel that a genuine, "adult" conversation isn't possible without > moderation? Not on the internet where anonymity leads to civility. Anyone can masquerade as a subject matter expert. Winning hearts and minds, discovery and curiosity are evils here, for example. This isn't an audiophile forum now if it ever was. It's a shame because, in reality, we are so fortunate to be in a golden era of hi-end gear. And it's not only the gear, but the formats and music- vinyl, hi-rez PCM, DSD, SACDs, redbook CDs. Music recorded in the 50s into the 70s, 80s and even 90s has never sounded better. Yet, it's accepted here that the industry which makes our hobby so rewarding are full of criminals and crazies. If everyone wanted the build quality of the rather cheaply made Transporter, then that's all we'd have. The new Astell & Kern looks incredible. The engineering on the inside is what will deliver great sound quality. What gives!? Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > I don't know who pays for this site to be maintained, but there is no > moderation at all. It isn't possible to carry on a genuine, "adult" > conversation here about the hobby we are all presumably so passionate > about. So you feel that a genuine, "adult" conversation isn't possible without moderation? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
I'm not surprised that another hifi rag tries to "debunk" ABX or blind testing TAS have written some confused pseudo science about it decades ago , to justify thier existence. The fact is that beyond very large and obvius differences the only game in town -is- blind testing ! That's the worlds of professionals in the academia people in the acoustic research field and psychology etc. You simply can't make any sensible conclusion on minute differences in for example DAC's with sighted test where you know what products you handle before hand . All other factors including placebo are magnitudes greater . So typically all sigthed test are useless they don't prove or disprove anything and don't provide much information about the sound. They do provide information about the other aspects of a product that is worthwhile so they can be a part of a good review . But the pure sound thing . And ABX test does not necessarily tell you how anything sounds either or if it's good or bad . It's even simpler it tells of there is a real difference or not to begin with . IF you can spot a difference ( which you can't or should not be able to in most cases ) then it can be worthwhile to quantify this Another fact ( not opinion this is proved over and over again ) all electronics with flat frequency response low noise and low distortion would sound the same ie they are transparent . You have put the performance beyond human capabilities this have already happened in most cases . You can ofcourse enjoy the sound of a non transparent product , like a tube amp , have fun :) What I find objectionable is that makers of such product makes very silly claims about why thier products are "better" ie that's whole mythsos of the high end audio in a nutshell with that FUD comes the ability to charge premium prices . You can't add noise and IM and THD and call it what it is and then charge these prices ? You instead invent some elaborate pseudo explanation on why this is better and spin a tale arond that . Even transparent products can be expensive in high end , overengineering is the name of that game . Then we have the pure fake products . And the purely confused pseudo science stuff . Real high end can be a mix of all of these design trends . For example take some good DAC chips put in expensive box oversize the psu and throw in some tubes and silver wires ugh :/ throw in quantum purifier for good measure ... I don't think like ralphy does that all this is due to pure scamming . Some is in the audiophile culture itself it's created that way it does not question or think critically anything goes just like in alternative medicine some of the charlatans actually believe this stuff themselves . But they are many con artist never the less . Another interesting fact is how data can be interpreted differently : Stereophile does both subjective sighted "evaluation " and measurements and the results are not very well correlated .The listening impression they got by the sigthed test can't very often predict the measurements or the other way around . It can in some rare case but not often . There are two main ways to interpret these results ( in reality it can get a bit messy not so clean cut ,but you get my idea ) 1. The woo woo way , that there is some hidden intangible dimension that can't be seen in these simplistic measurements .. 2. Or the that the sigthed listening are junk data and don't really tell you much ! This is the most likely case by a good margin until a very convincing case can be made to disprove this . But how to run a magazine under this premise ? That's why I think the editors of stereophile are dishonest , they must have seen the writing on the wall for decades , but still they persists . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > Wouldn't you have to admit that you aren't qualified to discern these so > called quacks from the real deal? For example, the best digital front > end that you've spent considerable time with in your own system is a > stock Transporter. Though it is inconvenient to accept, you could do > better with any number of barely hi-end DACs on the market today. And > without question, your mind would be blown by how amazing actual hi-end > digital will sound. > > PS Audio's DirectStream is one of the hot FPGA DACs today. You can > write it off already though. Right? No need to borrow one for a few > weeks. Reviewers are misrepresenting it. Customers are subject to > being fooled by their own imaginations. So the end game here is that > ONLY the hardest core skeptics own the facts. > > Jeez, I sincerely don't get it. What is being won or otherwise proven > here? Is the Transporter the end of the line? No CD player or DAC > could ever be significantly better in all aspects of sound quality? As long the high end audio press keeps on writing rave reviews based on subjective listening, often with no direct comparisons between different pieces of equipment, then there is absolutely no reason to take them seriously. Reviews where the reviewer compares the equipment being reviewed to some piece of equipment that was in their system months, if not years, ago are completely worthless. Reviews where the reviewer fails to display even the most basic knowledge of how digital audio works (which is just about all of the reviews and reviewers) are also worthless. I find it very funny that in the world of high end audio belief in science and scientific facts makes one a skeptic and a hard core one at that. Electricity and digital signals behave the same whether they are in a computer or a piece of high end audio equipment. Now how do you know whether or not I've listened to or owned other digital front ends in my system, and if so, whether or not my mind was blown? Simple answer, you don't. Going back to my original post - I was trying to make a point about the high end audio press being focused on the wrong things, such as the vastly over designed case of the AK240, which has absolutely nothing to do with how the unit sounds. I also pointed out Mr. Dudley's howlingly funny straw man argument against blind and double testing. Perhaps you should try reading it and then you try to explain to me how it makes any sense. As for the Transporter: it was a very well thought out design with an internal DAC that does its job with very little coloration, which is all that a good DAC should do. Many high end DACs add coloration to the sound, which is not a good thing. Should a DAC offer filter settings to compensate for early, poorly encoded digital audio? Perhaps but then we are entering into the realm of coloration and this is a whole different subject, as is the use of a DSP for room correction - another hotly debated topic in audio. I do want to thank you for your very thoughtful response and I do respect your views, even though they differ from mine. As long as you put your equipment to good use and enjoy the music then we will always be kindred souls in this sometimes crazy audio hobby. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > While it is quite true that is plenty of high end audio equipment that > is well designed by brilliant individuals trying to advance the state of > the art, it is also true that is plenty of high end audio equipment that > is just pure, over priced junk "designed" by quacks and individuals only > looking to make a buck. Wouldn't you have to admit that you aren't qualified to discern these so called quacks from the real deal? For example, the best digital front end that you've spent considerable time with in your own system is a stock Transporter. Though it is inconvenient to accept, you could do better with any number of barely hi-end DACs on the market today. And without question, your mind would be blown by how amazing actual hi-end digital will sound. PS Audio's DirectStream is one of the hot FPGA DACs today. You can write it off already though. Right? No need to borrow one for a few weeks. Reviewers are misrepresenting it. Customers are subject to being fooled by their own imaginations. So the end game here is that ONLY the hardest core skeptics own the facts. Jeez, I sincerely don't get it. What is being won or otherwise proven here? Is the Transporter the end of the line? No CD player or DAC could ever be significantly better in all aspects of sound quality? Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
jh901 wrote: > I don't know who pays for this site to be maintained, but there is no > moderation at all. It isn't possible to carry on a genuine, "adult" > conversation here about the hobby we are all presumably so passionate > about. > > While there are plenty of "audio jewelry" or otherwise "lifestyle" audio > gear manufacturers, the vast majority are run by rather brilliant guys > who love reproduced sound at least as much as we do. I sincerely find > it depressing that bashing hi-end gear is ok to whoever pays for this > site. Sad. > > The reason, generally, that the very best sounding gear out there costs > the most is that the engineers were not required to take short-cuts. If > we stick with digital front ends, for example, the best of the best are > designed from end to end with little compromise in the way of time and > money invested into R&D or into parts. If a DAC was simply an off the > shelf micro-chip with a few wires then dCS wouldn't exist. The > circuitry is complicated. The power supply designs are pricey and > complex. Same with the analog output section. Most recently, it seems > that FPGA DACs are becoming mainstream within hi-end. If there wasn't > any demand for better and ever better sound, then we'd all be stuck with > junk from the 80s. While it is quite true that is plenty of high end audio equipment that is well designed by brilliant individuals trying to advance the state of the art, it is also true that is plenty of high end audio equipment that is just pure, over priced junk "designed" by quacks and individuals only looking to make a buck. As I've stated over and over the manufacturers, writers and marketeers who promote expensive solutions to problem that really do not even exist should be called out often and loudly. For example the manufacturers of high end digital cables - pure and utter nonsense. Or the fixation on pico second jitter - more nonsense. And after market super thick mega-buck power cords - also more worthless nonsense. By the same token, those manufacturers addressing real world issues, such as loudspeaker crossover design should be given praise. As for FPGA DACs - as of now there is no convincing evidence that these designs sound any better than an off the shelf micro-chip. And no, some reviewer raving about the latest and great FPGA DAC in some magazine that runs full page ads from the manufacturer of the FPGA DAC doesn't count as convincing evidence. Remember the high end audio press (print and online) does not differentiate between the handful of brilliant individuals and loads of quacks, which leaves it up those of us without a horse in the race to call BS when and where necessary. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > What I thought. I don't know who pays for this site to be maintained, but there is no moderation at all. It isn't possible to carry on a genuine, "adult" conversation here about the hobby we are all presumably so passionate about. While there are plenty of "audio jewelry" or otherwise "lifestyle" audio gear manufacturers, the vast majority are run by rather brilliant guys who love reproduced sound at least as much as we do. I sincerely find it depressing that bashing hi-end gear is ok to whoever pays for this site. Sad. The reason, generally, that the very best sounding gear out there costs the most is that the engineers were not required to take short-cuts. If we stick with digital front ends, for example, the best of the best are designed from end to end with little compromise in the way of time and money invested into R&D or into parts. If a DAC was simply an off the shelf micro-chip with a few wires then dCS wouldn't exist. The circuitry is complicated. The power supply designs are pricey and complex. Same with the analog output section. Most recently, it seems that FPGA DACs are becoming mainstream within hi-end. If there wasn't any demand for better and ever better sound, then we'd all be stuck with junk from the 80s. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > What makes you think that's my point of view? Mainly the stuff you write. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
What I thought. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > Try posting the same to a real audiophile forum and see the response you > get. Isn't that where you can do the most good, and save the most souls? I think it's best to let you answer your own question: JJZolx wrote: > I just see you trying to make the same point in countless useless posts. JJZolx wrote: > In other words, the people who agree with you are the people who already > agree with you. > > Post it again tomorrow. I'm sure you'll get the same crowd with their > +1s tomorrow. And the next day. And the next. It never seems to get old > with people who agree with each other. JJZolx wrote: > Oh, good. Say it again for anyone who missed your last 200 posts on the > subject. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Try posting the same to a real audiophile forum and see the response you get. Isn't that where you can do the most good, and save the most souls? JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote: > So how about your point of view? What makes you think there is a > correlation between price and sound quality? Or is your point that sound > quality doesn't matter - what matters is the price of your system? > Sounds sad... What makes you think that's my point of view? I'm just tired of the repeated threads with nothing new or even marginally insightful being added to the discussion. It's just the same old audiophool bashing that we've been reading for years. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > Oh, good. Say it again for anyone who missed your last 200 posts on the > subject. Oh you can bet that I will keep on saying it, over and over, every time one of the various high end audio rags, oops I meant magazines, publishes a ridiculous review of some high priced piece equipment that supposedly sounds great simply because it is expensive, has a fancy and expensive finish and sounds better than another piece of equipment the review had in their system several years ago. Remember professional audio reviewers have audio memories that far exceed any known or proven human capabilities. However I do agree that what I'm doing is just a bit quixotic since I'm just someone posting on an internet forum rather than someone writing for a fancy magazine. Just remember that many of my posts will get indexed by Google and there's a chance that my words of wisdom might by read audiophile who will then clearly see the clay feet of their (former) audiophile gods. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > Oh, good. Say it again for anyone who missed your last 200 posts on the > subject. So how about your point of view? What makes you think there is a correlation between price and sound quality? Or is your point that sound quality doesn't matter - what matters is the price of your system? Sounds sad... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > In other words, the people who agree with you are the people who already > agree with you. > > Post it again tomorrow. I'm sure you'll get the same crowd with their > +1s tomorrow. And the next day. And the next. It never seems to get old > with people who agree with each other. And by the same logic it never seems to get old in the audiophile world that more expensive a piece of equipment, the fancier the finish and the glossier the advertisement the better the equipment sounds, as conclusively proven by the highly biased sighted listening tests of the well rewarded professional audio reviewers, regardless of the published measurements that indicate otherwise. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Oh, good. Say it again for anyone who missed your last 200 posts on the subject. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
In other words, the people who agree with you are the people who already agree with you. Post it again tomorrow. I'm sure you'll get the same crowd with their +1s tomorrow. And the next day. And the next. It never seems to get old with people who agree with each other. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > I just see you trying to make the same point in countless useless posts. I beg to differ - the posts are far from useless judging simply by the number of people who formerly identified themselves as audiophiles now agreeing wholeheartedly with my truthful assessment of the sad state of the world of high end audio. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > After all this time Zolx you still do not appear to get the point mos of > us are trying to make. I just see you trying to make the same point in countless useless posts. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > How generous of you. After all this time Zolx you still do not appear to get the point mos of us are trying to make. Basically none of us have a problem with well heeled audiophiles spending large sums of money on fancy looking and to large extent very nice sounding equipment since it is well within their rights to spend their money however they please. What we do have a problem with is the audiophile world, which includes the manufacturers, the press and audiophiles, believing that very expensive, fancy looking equipment sounds any better than plain looking, less expensive equipment because looks and price have very little to do with just how well a given piece of equipment will sound. Only careful unbiased listening tests , i.e. non-sighted or blind listening tests, coupled with meaningful measurements can provide that information. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > So if one wants to pay for a nice looking piece of equipment by all > means go ahead How generous of you. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > I wish I had more money too. Those bastards with so much money that they > can buy nice stuff are just ... -stoopid-. Julf wrote: > Luckily I have gotten to a point in my life where I have been able to > afford some pretty expensive toys (cars, motorcycles, electronics etc.), > but I don't see any point in paying for just a nice box and some silly > marketing. What is "stoopid" is to believe that the high cost, fancy cosmetics and glossy advertisements somehow mean that the equipment sounds better than less costly, plainer finished and unadvertised products. So if one wants to pay for a nice looking piece of equipment by all means go ahead but do not equate high cost with better sound because time and time and time again this has conclusively proven to be absolutely untrue. But then there is the second half of my initial post which mentioned Art Dudley's piece that ties oh so hard to justify sighted listening tests. And everyone knows that in sighted listening tests the better looking, more equipment ALWAYS sounds better than that cheap ugly junk. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote: > Luckily I have gotten to a point in my life where I have been able to > afford some pretty expensive toys (cars, motorcycles, electronics etc.), > but I don't see any point in paying for just a nice box and some silly > marketing. Good for you. I have an very rich uncle who drives a '91 Civic and washes his socks in the sink. Doesn't see any need to waste money doing otherwise. To each his own. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
JJZolx wrote: > I wish I had more money too. Those bastards with so much money that they > can buy nice stuff are just ... -stoopid-. Luckily I have gotten to a point in my life where I have been able to afford some pretty expensive toys (cars, motorcycles, electronics etc.), but I don't see any point in paying for just a nice box and some silly marketing. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
I wish I had more money too. Those bastards with so much money that they can buy nice stuff are just ... -stoopid-. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
Julf wrote: > A bunch of companies do, but their products are not taken seriously by > audiophiles. More importantly these companies and their products must first be taken seriously by the clowns who write and edit the various high end audio magazines and e-zines. Since most of these companies are focused on providing the consumer with lots of audio bang for the money their advertising budgets are small compared to the major players in high end audio and without plenty of ad money flowing into the magazines their products will never be given much attention. Then there's the fact that any piece of high end audio equipment that does not require a team of people to properly set it up can't possibly be good. After all what good is the review without the requisite mention of how the company president came by to help with the proper set up of the 60,000 pound loudspeaker and the 10,000 pound power amp (made from a solid billet of aircraft-grade aluminum ;)). Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
ralphpnj wrote: > My guess is that there is now a very big opportunity for someone to come > along and offer well made, lower priced but still great sounding audio > equipment without the fancy "audiophile approved" finishes. A bunch of companies do, but their products are not taken seriously by audiophiles. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
After I started this thread I thought a little more about the high cost of some of the audiophile approved finishes that are seen on many pieces of high end audio equipment, such as the (in)famous "front panel milled from a solid billet of aircraft-grade aluminum", and came to the realization that quite a bit of overall cost of these pieces of equipment is being wasted (from a purely sonic viewpoint) on expensive cosmetics. Which brings us smack into the good old, mostly plastic, Squeezebox Touch and its very high level of performance relative to its low price. What I'm trying to say is that it is quite possible to made a portable audio player that costs much less than the mighty Astell & Kern AK240 but without the costly duralumin casework, since the fancy casework does absolutely nothing to improve the overall sound of the player. Sure the fancy casework goes a long way in helping to justify the high price of the player and does result in a very fine and expensive looking piece of kit but from a strictly sonic performance stand point the casework adds nothing. Unfortunately the constantly rising prices of high end audio equipment have basically guaranteed that most, if not all, equipment come with some kind of fancy cosmetic finish in order to justify the high cost. For example, the Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, which kept its cost low by using fabric instead of a fancy cabinet, is now more or less the Treo, which has a fancy cabinet. Sure the Treo is much better looking but does it offer vastly improved sonics? My guess is that there is now a very big opportunity for someone to come along and offer well made, lower priced but still great sounding audio equipment without the fancy "audiophile approved" finishes. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
probedb wrote: > > > It's why I left avforums, they were reviewing the Chord Electronics Hugo > DAC which is over £1000the review said it had it's own "sound". If > you're paying £1000 for a DAC and it's colouring the sound then it's a > pretty bad product if you ask me! +1 But how else to make it "different" ie better in audiophile speak . Making a transparent product is so booring it sounds just like everything else actually not at all :) We must have artisan crafted distorsion... Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
I actually have no problem if they want to charge lots of money for the finish, just like people that like gold plated iPods and the like :) Then it's for people who like bling. But, yes, if it's a lot of money and saying it's because it sounds so awesome then I guess audiophiles must have their expensive "mine cost more than yours so it must sound better" toys ;) It's why I left avforums, they were reviewing the Chord Electronics Hugo DAC which is over £1000the review said it had it's own "sound". If you're paying £1000 for a DAC and it's colouring the sound then it's a pretty bad product if you ask me! 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Ready to fly
>From the "I can't make this stuff up" department comes the latest bit of nonsense from the November 2014 issue of Stereophile. Writing about the new Astell & Kern AK240 portable audio player, Michael Lavorgna has this to say: "The Astell & Kern AK240 ($2500) is milled from a solid billet of aircraft-grade duralumin, and each player undergoes a 12-step process for the gunmetal-finished casework alone." As I said, I can't make this stuff up (but I wish I could!). Also of interest (from a comedy standpoint only) is Art Dudley's piece in which he used a strawman argument to try and debunk blind and double blind listening tests. Truly a knee slapping howler and sure to put up on the Stereophile web site in short order since the piece can now be worn like a badge (milled from a solid billet of aircraft-grade duralumin) by all those poor audiophiles. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102330 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
