Fwd: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com Received: from [202.144.27.171] by web8004.mail.in.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 03 Jan 2003 04:29:54 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 04:29:54 + (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mr=20piyush=20shah?= Subject: Fwd: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1803 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/mixed by GroupStudy.com X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Dear all I thing it is now a real high time someone should take initiative in stoping the subject of CCIE vs BS or MS degree. Why are we here for ? to discuss and share problems faced on networking front or discusing whether BS is SUPERIOROR ccie . Let me tell you both the degreees are best in their unique ways . Who the heil are we to decide it's superioritY ? lIKE i MENTIONED WE ALL ARE INDIRECTLY SUPPORTING THE one whosoever raised this querry by getting involved in this question-answer forum . I thing we should stop it.There are lot many imp things on which we need to condcentrate more. Hope so the message is loud and clear to all those participant to these group . Regards Note: forwarded message attached. Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web8002.mail.in.yahoo.com; 03 Jan 2003 03:45:39 +0500 (IST) X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from groupstudy.com (66.220.63.9) by mta101.in.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 03 Jan 2003 03:45:37 +0500 (IST) Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA30437; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:52:13 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:16:19 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17958 GroupStudy Mailer; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:16:18 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17954 GroupStudy Mailer; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:16:17 GMT Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:16:17 GMT From: l0stbyte X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: l0stbyte Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 731 Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! College is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. Calculus Physics Finance Accounting Economics CS-programming CS-operating systems CS-networking Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by far more challenging. My two cents.. :) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60201t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I understand everything you said, and I agree that college coursework should modernize, but I think you may be missing the point of a college education. The point of a college education is not to prepare you to step into a job immediately. That is not its purpose, and never has been - even for such 'professional' degrees like engineering and CS. The purpose of the college degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon which you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as problem-solving, critical thinking, and time-management. In essence, you learn how to learn. In the abstract this is a nice thought and perhaps how things should work. In practice, university seemed to me to be mostly about learning how to impress a bevy of preening mandarins who have long since lost any relevance to the world at large. By removing accountability, tenure enforces this irrelevance. There are some wonderful teachers and amazing researchers to be sure, but they tend to be focused in disciplines which are very much practical in nature such as medicine which are preparing students for real world tasks. The real reason that college programs are far behind the times technologywise is not because of any noble liberal arts approach to learning. It is because the people on the cutting edge of technology are working for companies that can remunerate them better than schools. There is no fundamental benefit to studying old technology over new outside of inculcating some small sense of nostalgia for an age when you could almost know everything about the field. At issue is a lack of people qualified to teach at the cutting edge. They hire him because he has proven in college to be a hard-worker who knows how to think critically. This is these companies put such an emphasis on GPA - not because they actually think the subject matter has anything to do with the job, but because a top GPA indicates a strong work ethic and a supple mind. That is generous. A high GPA indicates a strong work ethic and an ability to coax the results that you want out of the system often by agreeing with a prof whose theory you disagree with. This is a warped form of Kuhnean puzzle-solving. University does very little to encourage shifting paradigms. In my short academic career I watched scholars rail against paradigm shifts because they invalidated their life's work. Rather than revising their disproven ideas they fought tooth and nail to preserve them. Heaven help you if you contradict them. Supple, capable minds merely *survive* formal education they aren't produced or even nursed by it. To wit - look at the top management of any large company and notice how by and large everybody is a college graduate. Look at Congress - everybody's a graduate. Clearly that means that there's something going on, and that the degree isn't totally worthless. In fact, consider the case of the most famous dropout of all - Bill Gates, who himself has chosen to fill the entire ranks of Microsoft's top management with college graduates. Gates could have put whoever he wanted into those positions, so if the degree really wasn't valuable, don't you think Gates would have figured this out by now? If even Gates agrees, I would say that clearly there is something valuable about that degree. I think you are committing 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'. Gates values smart people and as most smart people go through university it is moot whether it is the diploma that is significant in getting them the job or their intelligence that is more important. Though I do not have a degree, I most certainly have an education. For me the CCIE was an entry into a whole different realm of career possibilities. Not once in any of my interviews was I looked at unfavourably for not having completed my degree. All of these tokens, be it degree or certification are only for getting an interview. If one presents poorly even an Ivy league degree won't save you. If one presents well, even a high school dropout has a chance. What is important to decide how to achieve one's goals is an honest assessment of one's aptitudes and interests. For instance, I prefer to study independently. As such, the certification process was allot more fulfilling for me than university. If I want to read Hawthorne or Thoreau I grab a book from the shelf and read it. I don't need any external validation for that. I think it is a terrible shame that we rely so much on an arid pedagogy to teach us the truly important lessons of life. Perhaps this more than anything is to blame for the current atmosphere of corporate malfeasance. Our learning is done apart from moral context and apart largely from the world in which we live and breathe. Do whatever it takes to maintain personal authenticity. Trying to figure out your path statistically by determining whether you have a better chance of getting a job by doing a degree or getting a certification
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
and on a lighter note i never let school interfere with my education. having done the management thing for 20 years i can say from a pragmatic standpoint that a degree's value is primarily getting in the door. having passed that hurdle comes the real test - do you know what you profess to know. degree, certificate, whatever, you must be able to apply the requisite body of knowledge and respond under interview circumstances to how would you fix or how would you design questions. if you can get past the hr droids experience shows that the ccie holds a better chance at landing a networking position. either way be prepared to answer the you've got 5 minutes to tell me why i should hire you question. thanks. - Original Message - From: Geoff Zinderdine To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:04 AM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] I understand everything you said, and I agree that college coursework should modernize, but I think you may be missing the point of a college education. The point of a college education is not to prepare you to step into a job immediately. That is not its purpose, and never has been - even for such 'professional' degrees like engineering and CS. The purpose of the college degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon which you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as problem-solving, critical thinking, and time-management. In essence, you learn how to learn. In the abstract this is a nice thought and perhaps how things should work. In practice, university seemed to me to be mostly about learning how to impress a bevy of preening mandarins who have long since lost any relevance to the world at large. By removing accountability, tenure enforces this irrelevance. There are some wonderful teachers and amazing researchers to be sure, but they tend to be focused in disciplines which are very much practical in nature such as medicine which are preparing students for real world tasks. The real reason that college programs are far behind the times technologywise is not because of any noble liberal arts approach to learning. It is because the people on the cutting edge of technology are working for companies that can remunerate them better than schools. There is no fundamental benefit to studying old technology over new outside of inculcating some small sense of nostalgia for an age when you could almost know everything about the field. At issue is a lack of people qualified to teach at the cutting edge. They hire him because he has proven in college to be a hard-worker who knows how to think critically. This is these companies put such an emphasis on GPA - not because they actually think the subject matter has anything to do with the job, but because a top GPA indicates a strong work ethic and a supple mind. That is generous. A high GPA indicates a strong work ethic and an ability to coax the results that you want out of the system often by agreeing with a prof whose theory you disagree with. This is a warped form of Kuhnean puzzle-solving. University does very little to encourage shifting paradigms. In my short academic career I watched scholars rail against paradigm shifts because they invalidated their life's work. Rather than revising their disproven ideas they fought tooth and nail to preserve them. Heaven help you if you contradict them. Supple, capable minds merely *survive* formal education they aren't produced or even nursed by it. To wit - look at the top management of any large company and notice how by and large everybody is a college graduate. Look at Congress - everybody's a graduate. Clearly that means that there's something going on, and that the degree isn't totally worthless. In fact, consider the case of the most famous dropout of all - Bill Gates, who himself has chosen to fill the entire ranks of Microsoft's top management with college graduates. Gates could have put whoever he wanted into those positions, so if the degree really wasn't valuable, don't you think Gates would have figured this out by now? If even Gates agrees, I would say that clearly there is something valuable about that degree. I think you are committing 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'. Gates values smart people and as most smart people go through university it is moot whether it is the diploma that is significant in getting them the job or their intelligence that is more important. Though I do not have a degree, I most certainly have an education. For me the CCIE was an entry into a whole different realm of career possibilities. Not once in any of my interviews was I looked at unfavourably for not having completed my degree. All of these tokens, be it degree or certification are only for getting an interview. If one presents poorly even an Ivy league degree won't save you. If one presents well, even a high school
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! College is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. Calculus Physics Finance Accounting Economics CS-programming CS-operating systems CS-networking Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60103t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! College is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. Calculus Physics Finance Accounting Economics CS-programming CS-operating systems CS-networking Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by far more challenging. My two cents.. :) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60125t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
l0stbyte wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! College is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. Calculus Physics Finance Accounting Economics CS-programming CS-operating systems CS-networking Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by far more challenging. My two cents.. At the risk of causing a firestorm - I fail to see how the CCIE is more difficult than the above. What exactly is so complicated about the CCIE subject matter? There is nothing in there that I would say requires tremendous thought, with the possible exception of the funky syntax in the lab questions. :) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60132t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I have taken all of the classes listed below while in the engineering school at University of Wisconsin. I know that there was not one of them that demanded the attention to detail and total commitment that was required to get my CCIE. I carried a 4.0 through almost all of those classes while barely cracking a book. I wish I could have said the same about my CCIE. Then I wouldn't have had to ignore my wife and son for the last year and a half. I am not knocking a degree, because I feel it is as important if not more so than my certification. But to say that the degree is tougher is not necessarily true. It is comparing apples to oranges. The degree is almost all book knowledge where if you can regurgitate the correct answer without totally understanding it you pass. Try to pass the lab without a complete understanding of the topics covered. But at the same time, the CCIE focuses on a narrow range of topics where any good degree forces you to learn a wide breadth of information. Anyone who knocks either without having achieved them both is not doing justice to the people who worked hard to achieve what they have done. I know of engineers who said their CCIE was harder than their degree and vice versa. So give everyone credit for what they have achieved and don't knock them for what they haven't. I hate to admit it but the smartest person I ever knew in my life only had a sixth grade education and taught himself everything on his own after that. He taught himself Calculus, Physics and a lot of advanced engineering skills. He never had a diploma, degree or any certifications. But if I can ever achieve one tenth of the knowledge that he had I would be happy. Titles and letters after your name mean nothing, the only thing that matters is what you can do, and that you never give up. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of l0stbyte Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 3:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! College is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. Calculus Physics Finance Accounting Economics CS-programming CS-operating systems CS-networking Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by far more challenging. My two cents.. :) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60137t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Geoff Zinderdine wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I understand everything you said, and I agree that college coursework should modernize, but I think you may be missing the point of a college education. The point of a college education is not to prepare you to step into a job immediately. That is not its purpose, and never has been - even for such 'professional' degrees like engineering and CS. The purpose of the college degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon which you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as problem-solving, critical thinking, and time-management. In essence, you learn how to learn. In the abstract this is a nice thought and perhaps how things should work. In practice, university seemed to me to be mostly about learning how to impress a bevy of preening mandarins who have long since lost any relevance to the world at large. By removing accountability, tenure enforces this irrelevance. There are some wonderful teachers and amazing researchers to be sure, but they tend to be focused in disciplines which are very much practical in nature such as medicine which are preparing students for real world tasks. The real reason that college programs are far behind the times technologywise is not because of any noble liberal arts approach to learning. It is because the people on the cutting edge of technology are working for companies that can remunerate them better than schools. There is no fundamental benefit to studying old technology over new outside of inculcating some small sense of nostalgia for an age when you could almost know everything about the field. At issue is a lack of people qualified to teach at the cutting edge. I think you have made the mistake of restricting yourself just to the realm of technology - and rapidly moving technology at that. The vast realm of academia consists of subject matters that hardly change at all. To wit - in a hundred years, in the English major, Shakespeare will still be Shakespeare, in the political science major, Marx will still be Marx, in the psychology major, Freud will still be Freud, in the economics major, Adam Smith will still be Adam Smith, and in the physics major, thermodynamics will still be thermodynamics. Therefore there is tremendous benefit in studying the 'old masters' in these realms simply because they will be just as relevant today as they will be in the future. What exactly is the cutting edge in English, and is it really better than knowing Shakespeare? Again, forget about technology for a moment. Think about your world leaders - politicians, top businessmen, top authors/philosophers, whatever. I don't want people in those positions who know the latest RFC, I want people who have been grounded in the entire realm of human thought. That's not to say that I expect them to be able to recite Plato on a dime, but to at least have some exposure to a wide realm of logical and critical analysis. They hire him because he has proven in college to be a hard-worker who knows how to think critically. This is these companies put such an emphasis on GPA - not because they actually think the subject matter has anything to do with the job, but because a top GPA indicates a strong work ethic and a supple mind. That is generous. A high GPA indicates a strong work ethic and an ability to coax the results that you want out of the system often by agreeing with a prof whose theory you disagree with. This is a warped form of Kuhnean puzzle-solving. University does very little to encourage shifting paradigms. In my short academic career I watched scholars rail against paradigm shifts because they invalidated their life's work. Rather than revising their disproven ideas they fought tooth and nail to preserve them. Heaven help you if you contradict them. Supple, capable minds merely *survive* formal education they aren't produced or even nursed by it. Uh, well, supple minds certainly aren't produced by a lack of education. Consider this - go to the not-so-good part of town where people tend not to be educated - how many supple minds do you think you're going to find? Now I do agree that universities often times do have a certain doctrinal bent, but on the other hand, I have found most universities to be more filled with independent thinkers than the average place. To wit - look at the top management of any large company and notice how by and large everybody is a college graduate. Look at Congress - everybody's a graduate. Clearly that means that there's something going on, and that the degree isn't totally worthless. In fact, consider the case of the most famous dropout of all - Bill Gates, who himself has chosen to fill the entire ranks of Microsoft's top management with college graduates. Gates could have put whoever he wanted into those positions, so if the degree really
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Jim Newton wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I have taken all of the classes listed below while in the engineering school at University of Wisconsin. I know that there was not one of them that demanded the attention to detail and total commitment that was required to get my CCIE. I carried a 4.0 through almost all of those classes while barely cracking a book. I wish I could have said the same about my CCIE. Then I wouldn't have had to ignore my wife and son for the last year and a half. I am not knocking a degree, because I feel it is as important if not more so than my certification. But to say that the degree is tougher is not necessarily true. It is comparing apples to oranges. The degree is almost all book knowledge where if you can regurgitate the correct answer without totally understanding it you pass. Try to pass the lab without a complete understanding of the topics covered. Uh, this does not follow. How many CCIE's really really understand, say, BGP or OSPF? No, not just how to configure it, but how it really actually works. Give you an example - I would be hard pressed to find a lot of CCIE's who can explain to me how Dijkstra really works. Some can, but I would say that most, especially the newer CCIE's, cannot. How many can actually explain how a BGP RIB actually works? Heck, I would venture to say that many of them have never even tried to read the relevant RFC's - and if you've never read the RFC's, it's difficult to claim that you actually understand how the technology really works. Learning how to configure something is far far different from actually understanding it. A mechanic might be able to fix an engine, but a mechanical engineer can actually design a new one. But at the same time, the CCIE focuses on a narrow range of topics where any good degree forces you to learn a wide breadth of information. Anyone who knocks either without having achieved them both is not doing justice to the people who worked hard to achieve what they have done. I know of engineers who said their CCIE was harder than their degree and vice versa. So give everyone credit for what they have achieved and don't knock them for what they haven't. Nobody's knocking anybody for anything. I'm just merely presenting the facts. Out of all the companies in the world, the one with the most respect for the CCIE program is, surprise surprise, Cisco. Yet if you look at Cisco's top management, you'll find a lot of degrees, but no CCIE's whatsoever. Draw your own conclusion about what that means. I hate to admit it but the smartest person I ever knew in my life only had a sixth grade education and taught himself everything on his own after that. He taught himself Calculus, Physics and a lot of advanced engineering skills. He never had a diploma, degree or any certifications. But if I can ever achieve one tenth of the knowledge that he had I would be happy. Titles and letters after your name mean nothing, the only thing that matters is what you can do, and that you never give up. It is absolutely true that, at the end of the day, knowledge and determination are what ultimately counts. But the origination of this thread was to choose one or the other (the cert or the degree). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of l0stbyte Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 3:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: I have an MIS degree from The Ohio State University Max Fisher College of Business. I see some posts out there saying that a CS degree is no more than a vocational degree. Obviously this person has not been to college! College is not there to prepare you to step in and do a Sr. Engineer job, it is there to give you a base understanding of IT. I however, have a business degree with an IT focus. So, when you have been through the classes I have you form a level of respect for anyone who has been down the same road. When the CCIE gets as challenging as the following let me know. Calculus Physics Finance Accounting Economics CS-programming CS-operating systems CS-networking Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom All of the listed should be thought in high school. Unless it's some kind of quantum programming (is it still a concept?), CCIE should be by far more challenging. My two cents.. :) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60172t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 3:10 AM + 1/3/03, nrf wrote: Jim Newton wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I have taken all of the classes listed below while in the engineering school at University of Wisconsin. I know that there was not one of them that demanded the attention to detail and total commitment that was required to get my CCIE. I carried a 4.0 through almost all of those classes while barely cracking a book. I wish I could have said the same about my CCIE. Then I wouldn't have had to ignore my wife and son for the last year and a half. I am not knocking a degree, because I feel it is as important if not more so than my certification. But to say that the degree is tougher is not necessarily true. It is comparing apples to oranges. The degree is almost all book knowledge where if you can regurgitate the correct answer without totally understanding it you pass. Try to pass the lab without a complete understanding of the topics covered. If people haven't gotten my actual message, it's the knowledge and performance that counts later in one's career. Certifications are useful in getting first jobs in support. Incidentally, people might be interested in reading The Psychology of Computer Programming by Weisberg, now in a revised edition. He presents significant data that people tend to be very good at design, at coding, or troubleshooting, but the mindsets are different and few people are good at them all. It's easy to extend this to networking. Uh, this does not follow. How many CCIE's really really understand, say, BGP or OSPF? No, not just how to configure it, but how it really actually works. Give you an example - I would be hard pressed to find a lot of CCIE's who can explain to me how Dijkstra really works. Some can, but I would say that most, especially the newer CCIE's, cannot. How many can actually explain how a BGP RIB actually works? A Loc-RIB, an Adj-RIB-In, or an Adj-RIB-Out, as opposed to the RIB and FIB? :-) Heck, I would venture to say that many of them have never even tried to read the relevant RFC's - and if you've never read the RFC's, it's difficult to claim that you actually understand how the technology really works. Learning how to configure something is far far different from actually understanding it. A mechanic might be able to fix an engine, but a mechanical engineer can actually design a new one. But at the same time, the CCIE focuses on a narrow range of topics where any good degree forces you to learn a wide breadth of information. Anyone who knocks either without having achieved them both is not doing justice to the people who worked hard to achieve what they have done. I know of engineers who said their CCIE was harder than their degree and vice versa. So give everyone credit for what they have achieved and don't knock them for what they haven't. Nobody's knocking anybody for anything. I'm just merely presenting the facts. Out of all the companies in the world, the one with the most respect for the CCIE program is, surprise surprise, Cisco. Yet if you look at Cisco's top management, you'll find a lot of degrees, but no CCIE's whatsoever. Draw your own conclusion about what that means. What conclusions would you draw from the fact that CCIEs are quite rare among Cisco product developers and product managers? Cisco, as opposed, say, to HP, historically has marketing executives at the top, not engineers. Other companies have other cultures. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60182t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Uh, this does not follow. How many CCIE's really really understand, say, BGP or OSPF? No, not just how to configure it, but how it really actually works. Give you an example - I would be hard pressed to find a lot of CCIE's who can explain to me how Dijkstra really works. Some can, but I would say that most, especially the newer CCIE's, cannot. How many can actually explain how a BGP RIB actually works? A Loc-RIB, an Adj-RIB-In, or an Adj-RIB-Out, as opposed to the RIB and FIB? :-) Very good. But like I said, go to any recent CCIE and ask them the same thing. I would venture that the majority will not be able to answer. Nobody's knocking anybody for anything. I'm just merely presenting the facts. Out of all the companies in the world, the one with the most respect for the CCIE program is, surprise surprise, Cisco. Yet if you look at Cisco's top management, you'll find a lot of degrees, but no CCIE's whatsoever. Draw your own conclusion about what that means. What conclusions would you draw from the fact that CCIEs are quite rare among Cisco product developers and product managers? Cisco, as opposed, say, to HP, historically has marketing executives at the top, not engineers. Other companies have other cultures. Few if any companies have a culture of respecting technical certification over formal education. Does Microsoft fill its top ranks with MCSE's? Does Oracle fill its ranks with OCP's? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60195t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 1:07 AM + 1/1/03, nrf wrote: I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD) provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. Agreed, with respect to finding jobs. But a caveat -- once you have a track record, the knowledge is more important than the credential, especially if you've been in the field for a while. I certainly will agree that the learning and thinking modes are different between CCIE and computer science PhD, but they are complementary. I am _NOT_ saying don't get certifications, especially in the earlier parts of your career (after your immediate college opportunities have passed). I'm saying they are one part of a whole. Take the example of the IETF or IRTF. The only time I can think of that someone's degree comes up, or doesn't, is usually when someone is annoyed at Tony Li and refers to him as Dr. Li. Vint Cerf gets called Vint, although his signal honor is that he's about the only person that shows up at the IETF in a three-piece suit and doesn't get assumed to be a marketdroid. One of the big problems with OSI development is that the meetings tended to be attended by professional standards-meeting-goers who had never written or tested a line of code. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. And also with knowledge that comes from the true theoretical background. In this economy, I'll take what I can get. Luckily, some of what I get is in cardiology and pharmacology, and I know medicine well enough to conceive and propose diagnostic and treatment algorithms. I'm probably picking up a contract in the AVVID area, and, while I may not be up on the command set of the most recent product, I feel very comfortable in my understanding of the theory and the more recent technology. To illustrate, take a look at Cisco's top management. You will find nary a one who carries a CCIE. By and large, this is true in development engineering but not the TAC. There are some CCIEs that have moved from support into development, but I can't think of a key developer (including those that moved to Juniper, etc.) that has a CCIE. Nobody in my router research group at Nortel had any certifications, unless you count my inactive CCSI and *blush* my 1972 Registered Business Programmer, attesting to COBOL skill. So, again, it really all depends on what you want. If you're perfectly cool with slinging boxes for the rest of your life, then by all means ditch college and just get the CCIE. But if you think you'll ever have any ambitions for anything else, get that degree. The degree is much more important than when I started -- at a time when there were no CS degree programs. Still, even if you can't go back to school, the theoretical knowledge is out there, sometimes in IETF/NANOG/IRTF/RIPE documents, some in professional society (IEEE, ACM) archives, some in the publications of academics and research centers (e.g., CAIDA). You can get involved with mailing lists and local professional societies, and start writing and speaking to get some reputation. And, once again, I would reiterate that while you might be cool with slinging boxes now, 20 years later who knows how you'll feel? I constantly run into a lot of old-timers who regret not having gotten their education and are simply tired of taking orders from some 20-something manager. My variant is explaining to a 22-year-old programmer (with no degree) that is concerned that I might break something given a UNIX root password, and trying gently to remind him that I was administering UNIX systems when he was still being toilet-trained -- and I know UNIX networking better than he does. No, I don't want a neato-keen web interface since I'm only talking between computers -- I want to spawn subprocesses on the particular system, and know the internal IP addresses and well-known ports for some of the other machines. *sigh* Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60063t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD) provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. That this thread subsists continues to amaze me. The CCIE, challenging though it may be, is just a vendor test. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60064t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 3:57 PM + 1/1/03, Peter van Oene wrote: I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD) provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. That this thread subsists continues to amaze me. The CCIE, challenging though it may be, is just a vendor test. I'll admit it. I was waiting for an academic to notice that degree was not spelled correctly. :-) Seriously, there's a lot of emotion tied to certification, and I don't mean as a simple way to make cash fast. The society has overemphasized formal education, undervalued practical skills, and has massively undervalued pure logic. I can certainly remember, in the early seventies, when I started to use certifications to get around HRdroids. But, before long, I had a sufficient resume that it became a non-issue. My job-hunting skills improved as well -- since about 1976, my jobs didn't correspond to a published job description, or, at best, reflected a general need of the employer and we tailored my specific job. One of the best strategies is to get ahead of the commodity curve, and also to focus on the niches between complementary technologies, niches where enterprises don't even know they need specialists. Network management was like that for years. Studying the target enterprise, even to the point of recognizing problems and figuring out solutions, can also be a big help -- hire me and I'll fix this. Now, some unethical managers may just take your idea and run, so don't give away every idea. If you are a consultant, there is a very fine line between demonstrating your competence and giving free consulting. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60066t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 3:57 PM + 1/1/03, Peter van Oene wrote: I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD) provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. That this thread subsists continues to amaze me. The CCIE, challenging though it may be, is just a vendor test. typical of internet news groups. the most unlikely threads just seem to go on forever. I'll admit it. I was waiting for an academic to notice that degree was not spelled correctly. :-) Seriously, there's a lot of emotion tied to certification, and I don't mean as a simple way to make cash fast. The society has overemphasized formal education, undervalued practical skills, and has massively undervalued pure logic. I can certainly remember, in the early seventies, when I started to use certifications to get around HRdroids. But, before long, I had a sufficient resume that it became a non-issue. My job-hunting skills improved as well -- since about 1976, my jobs didn't correspond to a published job description, or, at best, reflected a general need of the employer and we tailored my specific job. One of the best strategies is to get ahead of the commodity curve, and also to focus on the niches between complementary technologies, niches where enterprises don't even know they need specialists. Network management was like that for years. you missed your calling and your opportunity, Howard. you coulda been the first Nick Corcodilos. You coulda written the first Knock 'Em Dead or Parachute books :- Studying the target enterprise, even to the point of recognizing problems and figuring out solutions, can also be a big help -- hire me and I'll fix this. Now, some unethical managers may just take your idea and run, so don't give away every idea. If you are a consultant, there is a very fine line between demonstrating your competence and giving free consulting. now this topic might make an interesting thread, if not entirely appropriate to this newsgroup. back in the days when I didn't know anything, it used to tick me off that it was so difficult to find anything written in English about networking or computers or programming. I was convinced that there were simple answers to the questions I was asking. Years later, I still don't know anything, and I am still convinced that there are simple answers to the questions I am asking. Call it progress. But you see the mentality here on this newsgroup, and on many other technical newsgroups. The question comes in the form of I work at a company, and we want to do X so how do I do it? I see the problem as stemming from the fact that someone was hired to be the computer guy and his boss expects that the computer guy he hired automatically knows everything there is to know about computers. Poor employee, afraid of losing his job, afraid of being replaced by someone who kows more, seeks out free help, mainly so the boss doesn't find out said employee's limitations. It never helps when the management you work for seems to believe that all you have to do is flip a couple of disks and the job is done. call it the curse of Microsoft, who made computing easy enough that most dummies could do most things, like install software. setting up a PC is no different than setting up a live streaming video over the internet for that technology stock conference we are going to have in three weeks at the hotel up there on the hill six blocks away - the one with the wiring infrastructure circa 1940. free consulting is something that tends to be part of the game, particularly with the higher end of the scale, so it seems to me. I generally don't have problems with smaller companies. of course their needs are usually simpler, and their management understands that they have hired on the cheap for their staff, and they consider bringing an integrator in once in a while as the more economical course of operations. The larger entities I have dealt with always throw some ridiculous clause into their RFP's requiring a qualified engineer to be on site for X number of weeks after installation at no cost Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60067t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, The Long and Winding Road wrote: Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 3:57 PM + 1/1/03, Peter van Oene wrote: I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD) provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. Ok, I've been following this thread for a while now. I'm a student currently working on my BS in Computer Engineering and I'll only be on my soap box for a few minutes here. Colleges used to be on the bleeding edge of technology and now they aren't anymore. I'm a network security engineer by practice and I'm having to study programmming and electronic design. Granted this is good and important, because I must understand how the technology works but while I'm learning the 1970s art of electronic design I'm missing out on the latest in network design. Currently colleges are in the mindset that you must be a grad student to even attempt networking and that is killing me. Look at how many universities offer MS and PhD programs in Network Engineering, but find one popular university that offers the same program to undergrads. I walked into a research lab full of grad students that were using out-dated Cisco and Bay equipment to study for their CCNA. They were amazed to find out I got mine while still in High-School almost 3 years ago (Yes I'm due for recert in May). The universities need to work on building programs in networking and computer security at the level of Computer Science and Computer Engineering. Sure you can argue Networking is a subset of both programs and thus a specialization that must be obtained after your BS. However, if thats the logic then therefore a Landscape Architecture student must first major in General Architecture and then work on their MS in Landscape Design. Which is not the case. Another problem is that there are absolutely ZERO Network Security or Computer Security courses at the undergrad level in my school (Virginia Tech). So we are letting all these programmers out the door without ever teaching them buffer overflows, or other security issues. And we wonder why every system built has security flaws out the wazoo. Now I've tried to take classes above my degree program and have been refused admission in all cases and that is so fustrating. Because for me the only way to stay up on technology is to do research on my own for no school credit, or to take a job in the world and forget about school. Colleges are running the shop like a bakery, if you don't fit the cookie cutter you are either thrown away or smashed back into the dough with the rest of the ginger-bread men. I have found one answerTutoring, I've started tutoring MS students in Network Applications and hopefully next semester I'll start with some Network Security tutoring. But that only provides person rewards and I'm still paying the same $20K/year to learn stuff I picked up in High-School in three years of Electronics and 4 years of Programming Design. And now with budget cuts its getting worse and they are scratching classes right and left. *Steps down off the soap box* Andrew --- http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60070t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Deep thoughts from Jack Handy I kind of agree with you that they need decent networking courses at the undergrad level. I don't want to go into my whole reason for going for my bachelor's, but I got my CCNP less than a year ago, and decided I would rather get a bachelor's in comp sci then continue to pursue the CCIE. A degree is so much more flexible. I would advise most people to go for a degree, then you can get the CCIE later( who knows it could be called something else or it could be abolished altogether). The degree will always be with you. Plus, you broaden your scope and you will appreciate all aspects of computers. You might even like programming and then you can be the guy/girl that writes the code for the newest routers. Jack Handy From: Andrew Dorsett Reply-To: Andrew Dorsett To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:25:31 GMT On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, The Long and Winding Road wrote:Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...At 3:57 PM + 1/1/03, Peter van Oene wrote: I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD)provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. Ok, I've been following this thread for a while now. I'm a student currently working on my BS in Computer Engineering and I'll only be on my soap box for a few minutes here. Colleges used to be on the bleeding edge of technology and now they aren't anymore. I'm a network security engineer by practice and I'm having to study programmming and electronic design. Granted this is good and important, because I must understand how the technology works but while I'm learning the 1970s art of electronic design I'm missing out on the latest in network design. Currently colleges are in the mindset that you must be a grad student to even attempt networking and that is killing me. Look at how many universities offer MS and PhD programs in Network Engineering, but find one popular university that offers the same program to undergrads. I walked into a research lab full of grad students that were using out-dated Cisco and Bay equipment to study for their CCNA. They were amazed to find out I got mine while still in High-School almost 3 years ago (Yes I'm due for recert in May). The universities need to work on building programs in networking and computer security at the level of Computer Science and Computer Engineering. Sure you can argue Networking is a subset of both programs and thus a specialization that must be obtained after your BS. However, if thats the logic then therefore a Landscape Architecture student must first major in General Architecture and then work on their MS in Landscape Design. Which is not the case. Another problem is that there are absolutely ZERO Network Security or Computer Security courses at the undergrad level in my school (Virginia Tech). So we are letting all these programmers out the door without ever teaching them buffer overflows, or other security issues. And we wonder why every system built has security flaws out the wazoo. Now I've tried to take classes above my degree program and have been refused admission in all cases and that is so fustrating. Because for me the only way to stay up on technology is to do research on my own for no school credit, or to take a job in the world and forget about school. Colleges are running the shop like a bakery, if you don't fit the cookie cutter you are either thrown away or smashed back into the dough with the rest of the ginger-bread men. I have found one answerTutoring, I've started tutoring MS students in Network Applications and hopefully next semester I'll start with some Network Security tutoring. But that only provides person rewards and I'm still paying the same $20K/year to learn stuff I picked up in High-School in three years of Electronics and 4 years of Programming Design. And now with budget cuts its getting worse and they are scratching classes right and left. *Steps down off the soap box* Andrew --- http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60075t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Ok, I've been following this thread for a while now. I'm a student currently working on my BS in Computer Engineering and I'll only be on my soap box for a few minutes here. Colleges used to be on the bleeding edge of technology and now they aren't anymore. I'm a network security engineer by practice and I'm having to study programmming and electronic design. Granted this is good and important, because I must understand how the technology works but while I'm learning the 1970s art of electronic design I'm missing out on the latest in network design. Currently colleges are in the mindset that you must be a grad student to even attempt networking and that is killing me. Look at how many universities offer MS and PhD programs in Network Engineering, but find one popular university that offers the same program to undergrads. I walked into a research lab full of grad students that were using out-dated Cisco and Bay equipment to study for their CCNA. They were amazed to find out I got mine while still in High-School almost 3 years ago (Yes I'm due for recert in May). The universities need to work on building programs in networking and computer security at the level of Computer Science and Computer Engineering. Sure you can argue Networking is a subset of both programs and thus a specialization that must be obtained after your BS. However, if thats the logic then therefore a Landscape Architecture student must first major in General Architecture and then work on their MS in Landscape Design. Which is not the case. Another problem is that there are absolutely ZERO Network Security or Computer Security courses at the undergrad level in my school (Virginia Tech). So we are letting all these programmers out the door without ever teaching them buffer overflows, or other security issues. And we wonder why every system built has security flaws out the wazoo. Now I've tried to take classes above my degree program and have been refused admission in all cases and that is so fustrating. Because for me the only way to stay up on technology is to do research on my own for no school credit, or to take a job in the world and forget about school. Colleges are running the shop like a bakery, if you don't fit the cookie cutter you are either thrown away or smashed back into the dough with the rest of the ginger-bread men. I have found one answerTutoring, I've started tutoring MS students in Network Applications and hopefully next semester I'll start with some Network Security tutoring. But that only provides person rewards and I'm still paying the same $20K/year to learn stuff I picked up in High-School in three years of Electronics and 4 years of Programming Design. And now with budget cuts its getting worse and they are scratching classes right and left. I understand everything you said, and I agree that college coursework should modernize, but I think you may be missing the point of a college education. The point of a college education is not to prepare you to step into a job immediately. That is not its purpose, and never has been - even for such 'professional' degrees like engineering and CS. The purpose of the college degree is to provide you with a a reservoir of general knowledge upon which you can draw, as well as practice in life-skills such as problem-solving, critical thinking, and time-management. In essence, you learn how to learn. Consider this. The top Wall Street investment banks and management consultancies hire numerous students from a wide range of majors - and give preference to engineers. But why? What exactly does mergersacquisitions have to do with Shakespeare? Or the philosophical theories of Rousseau? Or thermodynamic and quantum-mechanics equations? Answer - nothing. But that's not the point. Goldman Sachs doesn't hire somebody fresh out of college because they think he knows the gory details of how to close a billion-dollar stock offering. They hire him because he has proven in college to be a hard-worker who knows how to think critically. This is these companies put such an emphasis on GPA - not because they actually think the subject matter has anything to do with the job, but because a top GPA indicates a strong work ethic and a supple mind. To wit - look at the top management of any large company and notice how by and large everybody is a college graduate. Look at Congress - everybody's a graduate. Clearly that means that there's something going on, and that the degree isn't totally worthless. In fact, consider the case of the most famous dropout of all - Bill Gates, who himself has chosen to fill the entire ranks of Microsoft's top management with college graduates. Gates could have put whoever he wanted into those positions, so if the degree really wasn't valuable, don't you think Gates would have figured this out by now? If even Gates agrees, I would say that clearly there is something valuable about that
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Jack Handy wrote: will always be with you. Plus, you broaden your scope and you will appreciate all aspects of computers. You might even like programming and then you can be the guy/girl that writes the code for the newest routers. Well I'll let this slide by on the basis that you haven't reviewed my resume :) Due to my previous experiences I've done everything with computers from technical support through software development. Yes programming is fun and yes its a huge market, I've just never found it to be a turn-on. I've got a RADIUS server, a terminal server, a billing system, an online shopping cart system, and the start to an OS under my belt. :) Colleges need to learn that many students are getting the same courses while in high school and that they should offer a fast-track program for those who are ahead of the game. I entered college knowing C,C++, Pascal, some PERL, and some x86/Pentium assembler, all in addition to the electronics courses I had. The only point I'm hoping to show is that the colleges have become a corporation and that they are only interested in profit and not the personal instruction of students as they once were. Andrew --- http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60080t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, nrf wrote: updated. But I look askance at demands that colleges transform themselves into glorified vocational schools. If all they're doing is teaching the technology du-jour, and neglecting the building of fundamental thinking skills, then I think the heart of what higher education is really all about will be lost. I never said they they should turn into a vocational school. But look at the CS curriculum in any university right now. It is exactly a vocational school. They teach you how to write code, how to design an app, and then you do it. Yes in the meantime they spawn critical thinking. But the problem I see is this. If they can teach programming, and they can teach electronic design while still focusing on the learning as you stated, then why can't they also teach network design. Look at it this way they can teach anything in the world and still teach the how to learn deal you brought up. It's by asking students to solve problems. Yes, there is a mindset for engineers and lots of people are born with those skills. I'll be the first to admit that my GPA is horrible, but if you ask me to build you a network or write an application I will guarentee I can do just as well as any other john doe off the street. GPA is not an accurate way of showing excatly what I'm capable of. It only shows you what some professor thinks of me, or that I can barf up some some obscure fact from a book thats over 400 pages. It doesn't show how much I can think or how creative I am. It doesn't show you that I had a research project where I designed a new protocol for ACL transfers. GPA is not a reflection of abilities. It is a reflection of memorization ability for an exam. (I can't even remember a single phrase in spanish but I did three years of it in High-School and I got an A everytime) I'm not saying Don't go get a degree. I am saying that the program is behind, its playing catch-up and its are getting out lapped every day. Andrew --- http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60082t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Andrew Dorsett wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, nrf wrote: updated. But I look askance at demands that colleges transform themselves into glorified vocational schools. If all they're doing is teaching the technology du-jour, and neglecting the building of fundamental thinking skills, then I think the heart of what higher education is really all about will be lost. I never said they they should turn into a vocational school. But look at the CS curriculum in any university right now. It is exactly a vocational school. I would take issue with this. Clearly I don't know what's happening at VaTech. But I can tell you what's happening at the CS departments at places like MIT, Stanford, Caltech and Berkeley. Yes, these places teach things that have a vocational bent. But there is always a great deal of theory and general knowledge-building as well. Practically all of these schools teach languages like SCHEME, Pascal, LISP, and the like - which are not exactly the most popular languages in the working world today, but are extraordinarily useful for teaching fundamental concepts. True, the schools then move on to things like Java and C, but the underlying tone of the curricula is always to understand theory and rigor - not just to slap together a bunch of code that will work but is computationally inelegant. The emphasis is therefore more on the theoretical, rather than the vocational, which is as it should be. They teach you how to write code, how to design an app, and then you do it. Yes in the meantime they spawn critical thinking. But the problem I see is this. If they can teach programming, and they can teach electronic design while still focusing on the learning as you stated, then why can't they also teach network design. Look at it this way they can teach anything in the world and still teach the how to learn deal you brought up. It's by asking students to solve problems. Like I said, there is significant room for improvement for college curricula. I agree that some school probably should foster a degree program that concentrates on networks. What I would say is that many schools offer an interdisciplinary choice where you can in essence create your own major. True, many times these programs are restricted to honors students or some other type of elite designation. But what I'm saying is that if you feel frustrated by what your school offers, you may want to create your own curricula. Yes, there is a mindset for engineers and lots of people are born with those skills. I'll be the first to admit that my GPA is horrible, but if you ask me to build you a network or write an application I will guarentee I can do just as well as any other john doe off the street. GPA is not an accurate way of showing excatly what I'm capable of. It only shows you what some professor thinks of me, or that I can barf up some some obscure fact from a book thats over 400 pages. It doesn't show how much I can think or how creative I am. It doesn't show you that I had a research project where I designed a new protocol for ACL transfers. GPA is not a reflection of abilities. It is a reflection of memorization ability for an exam. (I can't even remember a single phrase in spanish but I did three years of it in High-School and I got an A everytime) Here I have to take issue. GPA is clearly not a perfect indicator of ability - I never said that it was. There is no perfect indicator of ability. On the other hand, GPA is a pretty darn strong indicator of ability. Let's face it. The guy with a 4.0 probably worked harder and is brighter than the guy with a 2.0, all other things being equal (especially if they went to the same school and studied the same major). No guarantees of course. But the trend is clear. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the way statistics works to say otherwise. Obviously there are some geniuses who have poor GPA's. And there are some idiots who have good GPA's. But the fact is there are a disproportionate number of geniuses with high GPA's.It's like saying that smoking is dangerous (I hope you don't disagree with this). That's not to say that everybody who smokes will die young, and everybody who doesn't smoke will live a long life. But the trend is clear - smoking, on average, tends to hurt your health. Clearly I hope that if your kids ask you whether they should smoke, you are going to tell them not to, instead of giving them some spiel about how statistics are imperfect. Or, let me put it to you this way. You say that GPA is an imperfect indicator of ability, and I agree. Yet you argue that you can write an app and that kind of thing, and that should be used as the indicator. However, I could easily argue that that is an imperfect indicator also. OK, let's say that you can write all kinds of apps and do all kinds of things. On the other hand, let's say you just have a
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
You are correct. For most people, I think acquiring a PhD is more resources and time consumed than becoming a CCIE. Now, not to belittle the CCIE, it is still probably one of the hardest lab examinations in the IT field. However, all in all, for most people, seems like the PhD would be harder. The issues on the CCIE, ultimately is all in the router, all within Cisco's website. There is no rocket science. Such a finite state of material to study cannot possibly compare to the type of research of data for a PhD. While the thinking level during the exam can be complex, does not compare to some of the things I ran into in college. It is more speed oriented and have you tried all the combinations and do you know the common gotchas. Sorry guys, I cut a bit out on everyone's responses to stay more focused. While I do not have a PhD, just from reading it and seeing others go for it, and realizing how many YEARS it takes to get it, I agree, acquiring a PhD is probably much harder than acquiring the CCIE. On average, a fairly bright guy can get the CCIE within a year. If even more motivated, probably a few months (ignoring other priorities and issues). Try that with a PhD. Much like John mentions, comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. The material covered in each area is very different. A PhD is much more theory oriented and there's a lot more of the why types of thinking. I don't have a CCIE, so can't say for sure, but here's my take on doing the exams up to and including the CCIE written. Everyone gets the list of books to read, and if you know the information in these references, you'll pass the tests. Note that with commercial study guides, practice labs, practice tests, and courses geared specifically to pass these tests, there's plenty of external help available to help make it through the CCIE written. As far as I know, as long as your willing to pay, you can take the tests over and over again until you pass. This aspect is not true when working on a PhD. John Neiberger wrote: MS- or PhD-level coursework is more difficult than what you'll run into studying for the CCIE, but they don't really cover the same subject matter so it's really apples and oranges. So, my opinion? You're compairing apples to oranges, but an MS or PhD is tougher than CCIE if you're going to a reputable school. Regards, John Black Jack 12/18/02 12:05:01 PM I suppose a CCIE is sort of a Ph.D. of networking. Studying for and taking the written is the equivalent of coursework, then doing hands-on to prepare for the lab is like research for your dissertation, the the lab test represents the oral exam. But I wouldn't stretch the analogy too far. For one thing the quality and difficulty of computer science graduate schools varies greatly. Just getting into one of the top programs is probably harder than CCIE. And for another the two programs don't really test the same skills, do they? (Though they surely overlap) Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Carroll Kong Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60021t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Carroll Kong wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... You are correct. For most people, I think acquiring a PhD is more resources and time consumed than becoming a CCIE. Now, not to belittle the CCIE, it is still probably one of the hardest lab examinations in the IT field. However, all in all, for most people, seems like the PhD would be harder. The issues on the CCIE, ultimately is all in the router, all within Cisco's website. There is no rocket science. Such a finite state of material to study cannot possibly compare to the type of research of data for a PhD. While the thinking level during the exam can be complex, does not compare to some of the things I ran into in college. It is more speed oriented and have you tried all the combinations and do you know the common gotchas. Sorry guys, I cut a bit out on everyone's responses to stay more focused. While I do not have a PhD, just from reading it and seeing others go for it, and realizing how many YEARS it takes to get it, I agree, acquiring a PhD is probably much harder than acquiring the CCIE. On average, a fairly bright guy can get the CCIE within a year. If even more motivated, probably a few months (ignoring other priorities and issues). Try that with a PhD. Much like John mentions, comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. The material covered in each area is very different. A PhD is much more theory oriented and there's a lot more of the why types of thinking. I would just like to reiterate that the graduate degree (master's or PhD) provides you a whole lot more flexibility than the CCIE ever can. With a graduate degree, you can branch out far and beyond network engineering. To illustrate, take a look at Cisco's top management. You will find nary a one who carries a CCIE. On the other hand, you will find quite a few MBA's (John Chambers MBA- Indiana, Howard Charney - MBA Santa Clara, Keith Goodwin - MBA Wayne State, Sue Bostrom MBA Stanford, Richard Justice - MBA Stanford, Charles Giancarlo - MBA Harvard, Mike Volpi - MBA Stanford, ) , some MS degrees (Mario Mazzola, Manny Rivelo), and a law degree (Dan Scheinman, JD - Duke). And in fact, every single member of Cisco's top management holds a bachelor's. Supposedly the CCIE holds the most sway within Cisco itself (of course), but even Cisco apparently doesn't give it much credence if you ever want to enter top management. So, again, it really all depends on what you want. If you're perfectly cool with slinging boxes for the rest of your life, then by all means ditch college and just get the CCIE. But if you think you'll ever have any ambitions for anything else, get that degree. And, once again, I would reiterate that while you might be cool with slinging boxes now, 20 years later who knows how you'll feel? I constantly run into a lot of old-timers who regret not having gotten their education and are simply tired of taking orders from some 20-something manager. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=60050t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Interesting question. Some thoughts from someone that does have a PhD in CS (dissertation in networking, a dozen or so publications, a handful in IEEE journals). I initially went into gradual school to teach and do research, but after spending two summers during grad school as an intern in industry, realized that I was much more interested in working in industry than staying in academia. When I completed my PhD, I took a job in industry. Much like John mentions, comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. The material covered in each area is very different. A PhD is much more theory oriented and there's a lot more of the why types of thinking. Obviously, this sort of questioning is needed and helps lead one to dissertation topics and an actual research question. Besides the initial reading list you get from your advisor, you're on your own to find related research, develop your ideas, verify that your work is unique, and then get it published before someone else stumbles across the same idea. And note, there are several hoops one needs to go through to get a PhD, and failing any one of these can cause you to get booted from your program. In order, these steps are: 1) pass your prelims which are a test of breadth of knowledge in all the main areas in your subject area. The way prelims where structured where I went to school, we had test and pass in 4 of 5 core areas (systems, languages, theory, algorithms, and architecture) and 4 non-core areas (networking fell into this space) 2) pass your comprehensives (comps, test that you have detailed knowledge in the area you intend to do research). The format for comps is often a series of probing verbal questions asked by each member of your comittee that you answer in real-time. 3) pass your proposal (this is where you propose the topic/question you intend to research/solve. Besides a verbal defense, this requires a failry extensive document be written which details the existing research space, and how your work will fit in, etc.) 4) do the research and write up your dissertation 5) defend your dissertation. It's often easiest to prove your dissertation is worthy of a degree if you have many peer reviewed publications, so add lots of publications to step 4 above. I don't have a CCIE, so can't say for sure, but here's my take on doing the exams up to and including the CCIE written. Everyone gets the list of books to read, and if you know the information in these references, you'll pass the tests. Note that with commercial study guides, practice labs, practice tests, and courses geared specifically to pass these tests, there's plenty of external help available to help make it through the CCIE written. As far as I know, as long as your willing to pay, you can take the tests over and over again until you pass. This aspect is not true when working on a PhD. The CCIE lab does seem to be a much more robust evaluation mechanism as it appears to require much more on your own sort of preparation. Using the framework above, the tests up through a CCIE written might fall into something like the prelims. But prelims cover a much wider range of material. One might be able to classify the CCIE lab sort of like the comps one takes in working towards a PhD. I don't think I'd classify the CCIE lab as equivalent to a PhD as there's a lot more required in doing a PhD than knowing a lot about some specific area. So which path should one take? I think it depends. Having a HS diploma and a CCIE most likely will not open doors for one to teach at a univerisity. On the other hand, having a PhD doesn't necessarily mean one can design an enterprise let alone an ISP network. I'd suggest balance. Get a four year degree and supplement with a CCNP. Work for a while. Determine if it makes sense from a job/career perspective to move on to a MS/PhD or onto a CCIE, or neither, or both John Neiberger wrote: MS- or PhD-level coursework is more difficult than what you'll run into studying for the CCIE, but they don't really cover the same subject matter so it's really apples and oranges. I personally don't even have a BS--which I regret--but it wouldn't help much in my current position anyway, except possibly for promotions or raises, which is important, but it wouldn't help me do my job any better. IMO, someone who pursues an MS or PhD is not planning on remaining a network technician for long; they probably have loftier goals. A CCIE with no degree, on the other hand, likely enjoys the technical side of things. I often heard it lamented that many CCIEs who are loving life as senior engineers end up being placed into management positions that they hate. Just because someone is advanced in a technical area does not necessarily make them management material. OTOH, someone with an MS or PhD is quite often management material, but not necessarily the first person you'd call with a general networking question. That
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
bergenpeak wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Interesting question. Some thoughts from someone that does have a PhD in CS (dissertation in networking, a dozen or so publications, a handful in IEEE journals). I initially went into gradual school to teach and do research, but after spending two summers during grad school as an intern in industry, realized that I was much more interested in working in industry than staying in academia. When I completed my PhD, I took a job in industry. Much like John mentions, comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. The material covered in each area is very different. A PhD is much more theory oriented and there's a lot more of the why types of thinking. Obviously, this sort of questioning is needed and helps lead one to dissertation topics and an actual research question. Besides the initial reading list you get from your advisor, you're on your own to find related research, develop your ideas, verify that your work is unique, and then get it published before someone else stumbles across the same idea. And note, there are several hoops one needs to go through to get a PhD, and failing any one of these can cause you to get booted from your program. In order, these steps are: 1) pass your prelims which are a test of breadth of knowledge in all the main areas in your subject area. The way prelims where structured where I went to school, we had test and pass in 4 of 5 core areas (systems, languages, theory, algorithms, and architecture) and 4 non-core areas (networking fell into this space) 2) pass your comprehensives (comps, test that you have detailed knowledge in the area you intend to do research). The format for comps is often a series of probing verbal questions asked by each member of your comittee that you answer in real-time. 3) pass your proposal (this is where you propose the topic/question you intend to research/solve. Besides a verbal defense, this requires a failry extensive document be written which details the existing research space, and how your work will fit in, etc.) 4) do the research and write up your dissertation 5) defend your dissertation. It's often easiest to prove your dissertation is worthy of a degree if you have many peer reviewed publications, so add lots of publications to step 4 above. You forgot to mention another huge requirement to getting a PhD - simply getting admitted in the first place. This encompasses a huge amount of work. You can't just show up to a graduate program and start taking classes - you have to actually win admission first, which requires that you graduate with a bachelor's with decent grades, do well on the GRE, go through the application process, demonstrate a facility for research (probably by undergoing research projects while you're an undergrad), getting good rec's from profs, etc. etc. And of course in order for you to have a bachelor's, you have to win admission to an undergraduate school and all that that entails (doing well in high school, doing well on the SAT, doing extracurriculars, getting teacher rec's, blah blah blah). Therefore, I believe that when you're comparing a HS grad with a CCIE, to somebody with a PhD, then in terms of sheer effort, there's no comparison - it's a no-brainer. I don't have a CCIE, so can't say for sure, but here's my take on doing the exams up to and including the CCIE written. Everyone gets the list of books to read, and if you know the information in these references, you'll pass the tests. Note that with commercial study guides, practice labs, practice tests, and courses geared specifically to pass these tests, there's plenty of external help available to help make it through the CCIE written. As far as I know, as long as your willing to pay, you can take the tests over and over again until you pass. This aspect is not true when working on a PhD. And neither is it true of the bachelor's, or any other part of traditional academia. Almost always, there are actual penalties and restrictions associated with just attempting tests and classes over and over again until you finally pass. I believe Cisco should record on your CCIE number how many times you took to pass it. Is that rough? Yeah. But hey, let's face it, a guy who took the lab 20 times before he finally passed probably isn't as good as the guy who passed it on his first time. Somebody might say that a person might get lucky or unlucky and require more or less attempts to pass (i.e. somebody who's really good might just get unlucky and fail and therefore require a 2nd attempt, somebody who's really bad might get lucky and pass on his first attempt). But hey, this is also true of academia and everybody has learned to accept this. For example, somebody who's really good academically might have a bad day and score poorly on his first shot at the SAT and require another attempt to get the
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
just something to add to the coversation concerning the quality of education certifications http://www.westga.edu/%7Edistance/ojdla/summer52/pond52.html LAWRENCE A SCULARK From: nrf Reply-To: nrf To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:43:12 GMT Received: from mc6-f25.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.252.161]) by mc6-s14.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:58:52 -0800 Received: from groupstudy.com ([66.220.63.9]) by mc6-f25.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:58:51 -0800 Received: from localhost (mail@localhost)by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA08853;Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:58:49 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:43:13 + Received: (from listserver@localhost)by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA06738GroupStudy Mailer; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:43:12 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost)by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA06731GroupStudy Mailer; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:43:12 GMT Message-Id: X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Dec 2002 05:58:51.0575 (UTC) FILETIME=[88AEDC70:01C2AB11] Pcasey wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Interesting question, but I think the question of which is tougher and which is more valuable get confused. As someone who has an MBA from a top school, I know that it took several thousand of hours of work and an estimated 12,000 - 15,000 pages of reading. I am in process on my CCIE, but so far it looks like it will only be a fraction of that. I would add that people who are looking at only the work involved in getting a top-flight MBA don't see the whole picture. Not only do you need to figure in the work needed to obtain the MBA, you also have to figure in the work involved in getting admitted to a top program in the first place. For example, let's say you want to get an MBA from Harvard/Stanford/Penn/N'Western/whatever. Well, you can't just show up to class one day and demand that they start teaching you. You first have to be admitted - and let's face it, getting admitted to places of that caliber requires you to have done a whole lot of stuff beforehand. They ain't gonna admit just anybody. Therefore when you add in the work involved in simply getting admitted in the first place, in addition to the work involved in getting the degree, I think it's plain to see that the degree from a top school is many times more difficult than the CCIE could ever be. However, how hard it is really doesn't matter. The question is what you want to do with your life and what you find interesting. Would being an successful investment banker pay more than being a solid CCIE? Of course. Would I hate my life? Of course. But, that is just my personal view. This is absolutely true, but I would also add the following. What makes you happy now may not make you happy in the future. Sure, you might like to be the network guy configuring boxes now, but there's no guarantee that this will still be true 20 years later. Maybe you'll still like it, but on the other hand, maybe you want to be the one in the nice office telling other people to configure boxes. Degrees are valuable because of their flexibility. If you want to make a change in your career path in the future, it is far easier to do so with a degree than with a cert. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59779t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59894t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I think the key is to know what you are going to college for. I Have A degree from The Ohio State University, Max Fisher College of Business in MIS. I also, am enrolled at Franklin University MBA in MIS. Lastly,I admit to having my CCNP (working on CCDP). Of all the tests I have taken over the years the Cisco exams are by far the easiest. I think we need to be realistic when comparing Certs Vs. Education. It took me 4 months to get my CCNP it took me 6 Years to get my education. The CCIE would probably take me as long to prepare for as my MBA; however, I think the MBA will open up far more doors. Calculus, Physics, Finance, Accounting, Economics to name a few to receive a degree. Remember you don't just take one of each you take several. I agree with the course load listed in the e-mail below. -Original Message- From: J.D. Chaiken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] If that were the real reading list for a BS degree, I would *LOVE* it. My problem is that they make you read all the fluffy stuff that you never wanted to read in the first place, and didnt go to college for, but they make you read anyway. And further, lets say you were an english major, do you really think that Calculus I would help you there? Jarett Charlie Wehner wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59799t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Hi All I think the CCIE is a narrow focus as compared to a degree. What a person does or would like to do with either will determine which is the better route for that individual. It is going to be up to the individual and what he/she is looking to do in the future. You can get your CCIE but if you can't do the job your not going to get the 100,000.00 year position. You can also get the BS or MS and work at Burger World. The one problem I see is people with a CCIE are Network specific and to change to another branch of IT you will most likely need to get another cert. I see someone with a BS or MS being much more mobile as far as crossing departments if you will. I for example have been working in IT for 17 years. I have gone through numerous departments over the years. I started as a programmer, then to support and Help Desk, then to Network Operations. Network Operations is where I want to be. I don't have a Bachelors degree and don't want one. I have no aspirations of being a CIO, etc. I want to be hands on andSecurityork Secutity consulting, that's what I enjoy doing. So for me the CCIE is the next step. I see more value for me in the CISSP and CCIE certifications because I have experience to back up my certs which gets me into positions I want. I can get the Job done. There are however doors which will not open to me because I don't have the degree. Some Companies just won't even look at you if you don't have the Degree. I'm ok with that, I just don't work for companies who want a Degree over ExperienceBeurocracieson't work well in their Beurocracies anyway. Just my 2 cents. Regards Sal DiStefano --- Ladrach, Daniel E. wrote: I think the key is to know what you are going to college for. I Have A degree from The Ohio State University, Max Fisher College of Business in MIS. I also, am enrolled at Franklin University MBA in MIS. Lastly,I admit to having my CCNP (working on CCDP). Of all the tests I have taken over the years the Cisco exams are by far the easiest. I think we need to be realistic when comparing Certs Vs. Education. It took me 4 months to get my CCNP it took me 6 Years to get my education. The CCIE would probably take me as long to prepare for as my MBA; however, I think the MBA will open up far more doors. Calculus, Physics, Finance, Accounting, Economics to name a few to receive a degree. Remember you don't just take one of each you take several. I agree with the course load listed in the e-mail below. -Original Message- From: J.D. Chaiken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] If that were the real reading list for a BS degree, I would *LOVE* it. My problem is that they make you read all the fluffy stuff that you never wanted to read in the first place, and didnt go to college for, but they make you read anyway. And further, lets say you were an english major, do you really think that Calculus I would help you there? Jarett Charlie Wehner wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59801t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Interesting question, but I think the question of which is tougher and which is more valuable get confused. As someone who has an MBA from a top school, I know that it took several thousand of hours of work and an estimated 12,000 - 15,000 pages of reading. I am in process on my CCIE, but so far it looks like it will only be a fraction of that. However, how hard it is really doesn't matter. The question is what you want to do with your life and what you find interesting. Would being an successful investment banker pay more than being a solid CCIE? Of course. Would I hate my life? Of course. But, that is just my personal view. As someone who has had a wide range of technical, managerial, and financial experiences I strongly encourage people to follow their passion and not get hung-up in the money question. And don't worry about how hard it is or isn't. If you love it you will work through it. If you hate it but are trying to just make a bunch of money, it may be harder for you that becoming a brain surgeon. Just my $1.25 worth . . . inflation you know! Mic shoeps wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59755t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Pcasey wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Interesting question, but I think the question of which is tougher and which is more valuable get confused. As someone who has an MBA from a top school, I know that it took several thousand of hours of work and an estimated 12,000 - 15,000 pages of reading. I am in process on my CCIE, but so far it looks like it will only be a fraction of that. I would add that people who are looking at only the work involved in getting a top-flight MBA don't see the whole picture. Not only do you need to figure in the work needed to obtain the MBA, you also have to figure in the work involved in getting admitted to a top program in the first place. For example, let's say you want to get an MBA from Harvard/Stanford/Penn/N'Western/whatever. Well, you can't just show up to class one day and demand that they start teaching you. You first have to be admitted - and let's face it, getting admitted to places of that caliber requires you to have done a whole lot of stuff beforehand. They ain't gonna admit just anybody. Therefore when you add in the work involved in simply getting admitted in the first place, in addition to the work involved in getting the degree, I think it's plain to see that the degree from a top school is many times more difficult than the CCIE could ever be. However, how hard it is really doesn't matter. The question is what you want to do with your life and what you find interesting. Would being an successful investment banker pay more than being a solid CCIE? Of course. Would I hate my life? Of course. But, that is just my personal view. This is absolutely true, but I would also add the following. What makes you happy now may not make you happy in the future. Sure, you might like to be the network guy configuring boxes now, but there's no guarantee that this will still be true 20 years later. Maybe you'll still like it, but on the other hand, maybe you want to be the one in the nice office telling other people to configure boxes. Degrees are valuable because of their flexibility. If you want to make a change in your career path in the future, it is far easier to do so with a degree than with a cert. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59779t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 7:10 PM + 12/21/02, nrf wrote: The thing about comparing degrees to certs is that they aren't totally comparable because they serve different purposes. The degree is designed to teach you general knowledge - basically to teach you how to think. and pass academic tests. Outside the sciences and engineering, there's a tendency, fortunately not universal, for the professor to want answers that agree with her or his particular viewpoint. I've had some, however, that would give you an A on a paper that tore apart their viewpoint, but did it logically, according to the academic rules. Let's face it. The vast majority of college graduate use very little of what they actually learned in college. How many English majors really get jobs where they do critical analyses of Elizabethan poetry? Perhaps not Elizabethan, but you do bring up the interesting possibility that some of the Cisco test writers' language skill comes from Old English. Other languages are possible, though. I remember some documentation on OSPF demand circuits that were, at best, a word-by-word translation of Old High Norse, Heian Period Court Japanese, or Klingon into modern English. I knew the developer and knew he didn't write like that. To figure out what the documentation was saying, I reviewed the RFC, tried some commands, and did drop a note to the guy that wrote the code. If his code was like that writing, it wasn't what we usually deprecate as spaghetti code. It was code made of stale g'agh. How many math majors really spend the rest of their lives doing proofs and theorems? Yes, there are some (particularly those who choose careers in academia) but they are in the minority. The majority go into the working world and take jobs that have very little association with whatever they studied. But that's not really the point. Unless you really are going to be a professor, the goal of an English degree is not so that you can memorize Chaucer. The goal is to provide you with a solid grounding of general knowledge and training in critical thinking and creativity - skills that improve your productivity as a worker. This is a valid point. There are ways to show critical thinking and creativity, with demonstrable experience being a start. Participating in engineering and computer science forums (societies like ACM and IEEE, organizations like IETF and NANOG) is another way to establish a reputation, as well as speaking at trade shows/local professional meetings and publishing in the trade press or more formal media. This IS an area where you can do something on your own, if you take the initiative. Certs, on the other hand, make no bones about trying to provide you with a broad education. Certs are designed, ideally, to measure your knowledge of specific skills. Period. As stated by someone else on this thread, the CCIE may prove to be valuable in the network engineering profession, but has essentially zero value in any other profession. And a fairly specific part of network engineering, which is Cisco enterprise support oriented. As currently defined, it has relatively little relevance to ISPs, and doesn't test large-scale design skills. For example, you can't get your CCIE and then decide you wanna be an investment banker.But you can do that with an MBA. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59722t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
As stated by someone else on this thread, the CCIE may prove to be valuable in the network engineering profession, but has essentially zero value in any other profession. And a fairly specific part of network engineering, which is Cisco enterprise support oriented. As currently defined, it has relatively little relevance to ISPs, and doesn't test large-scale design skills. Agreed. I was always disappointed with this aspect of the cert. I realize it's hard to simulate Internet routing in a lab, but at least the design principles could have been covered. Also, my RS CCIE didn't cover access at all. There was a CCIE Dial for that, but it wouldn't have hurt to at least addresss the issues a bit. -sd Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59726t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:50 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23691 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Received: (from nobody@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23686 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT From: Charlie Wehner X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Charlie Wehner Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 925 What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59677t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Thank you Howard for laying the foundation for us to grow on.. -Kevin - Original Message - From: Howard C. Berkowitz To: Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] At 1:37 PM + 12/20/02, Mr piyush shah wrote: Dear friends It has been quite long that I have been hearing whether CCIE is superior or MS. I thing it is high time we should wrap the topic.I dont understand ,whether why this forum for ? It should b a purely technical. For a typically type of questioning like this, there are resposes which lasts for weeks but there are some questions for whom nobody seems to be bothered ? There was a queation which was thrown on this on TACACS ACS whether What could the issue that I am able to authenticate and not authorisation ,not a single person on this site bothered to answered ,not even Priscilla . Let's consider whether people bother to respond. First, remember that everyone who does so is volunteering their time. They are not a substitute for the TAC or reference materials. Have you considered that at the time you asked the question, Priscilla might be on vacation, another expert has limited list access while on business travel (perhaps behind a strict firewall), and two others are trying to finish projects for which they are paid? The latter might scan the list, but not have 10-30 minutes to write a post. Indeed, many of those experts do not have the answer memorized, but would have to look it up -- admittedly much faster than would a beginner. Which sounds to be very starnge. There are so many people who r new to networking tech ,hence comes with some querry which might b stupid to some of our colleages but pls ensure that u were also like them during your initial phase , The following is not meant to be a put-down, but a reality of how some people started in networking technology. I was first responsible for a network in 1970, using Bell 100 series modems (300 bps) to a PDP-11 running critical medical applications. Most links were acoustically coupled dialups, but we did have a few dedicated lines (again at 300 bps). With about 10 user ports on the machine, we sometimes just ran out. Since one of the dedicated lines was only needed for backups at night, and another for reporting, I realized I could switch them to dialup during the day. There was no Black Box Catalog or the like. I needed to get a copy of RS-232 and learn the wiring, decide how many pins I had to switch, go to the electronics store and get an appropriate rotary switch and other components, and physically build the box, soldering the wires to the switch. I made some incorrect assumptions the first time, and had to use electronic test instruments to find what I had done wrong -- it turned out I wasn't clear about the functions of the Pin 1 and Pin 7 grounds. At the same time all of this was going on, I was the head of software development for the medical applications, so needed to both design, write, and manage development, as well as researching expert system rules for blood banking and clinical chemistry. So no, not everyone had the luxury of a list or even colleagues. hence try to rectify the querry rather than spending your precious time on stupid questions like ccie is superior or MS , what is the salary of CCIE ? And I will be perfectly honest. Sometimes, I may be in a hurry when reading the list, and there's a stupid question that I can answer from personal experience. Even when I answer a technical question with which I am very familiar, I often check the documentation -- Cisco or IETF -- to be sure I'm referring to the right document. On another list, for example, there was a DNS question. I knew the answer was in RFC 1033, 1034, or 1035, but wasn't sure which, and didn't have time to look it up. I cited the three documents, and said I _thought_ it was 1034. Looking it up later, it was 1035. I hope the message is clear to everybody Regards PIYUSH Note: forwarded message attached. Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web8002.mail.in.yahoo.com; 20 Dec 2002 07:36:38 +0500 (IST) Return-Path: X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from groupstudy.com (66.220.63.9) by mta102.in.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2002 07:34:44 +0500 (IST) Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA32069; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:04:32 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:50 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23691 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Received: (from nobody@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23686
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
The thing about comparing degrees to certs is that they aren't totally comparable because they serve different purposes. The degree is designed to teach you general knowledge - basically to teach you how to think. Let's face it. The vast majority of college graduate use very little of what they actually learned in college. How many English majors really get jobs where they do critical analyses of Elizabethan poetry? How many math majors really spend the rest of their lives doing proofs and theorems? Yes, there are some (particularly those who choose careers in academia) but they are in the minority. The majority go into the working world and take jobs that have very little association with whatever they studied. But that's not really the point. Unless you really are going to be a professor, the goal of an English degree is not so that you can memorize Chaucer. The goal is to provide you with a solid grounding of general knowledge and training in critical thinking and creativity - skills that improve your productivity as a worker.College graduates on average make more money than non-graduates and this is prima-facie evidence that the college education enhances one's value even when doing a job that has little to do with whatever you studied Certs, on the other hand, make no bones about trying to provide you with a broad education. Certs are designed, ideally, to measure your knowledge of specific skills. Period. As stated by someone else on this thread, the CCIE may prove to be valuable in the network engineering profession, but has essentially zero value in any other profession. For example, you can't get your CCIE and then decide you wanna be an investment banker.But you can do that with an MBA. J.D. Chaiken wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If that were the real reading list for a BS degree, I would *LOVE* it. My problem is that they make you read all the fluffy stuff that you never wanted to read in the first place, and didnt go to college for, but they make you read anyway. And further, lets say you were an english major, do you really think that Calculus I would help you there? Jarett Charlie Wehner wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59679t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fwd: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Dear friends It has been quite long that I have been hearing whether CCIE is superior or MS. I thing it is high time we should wrap the topic.I dont understand ,whether why this forum for ? It should b a purely technical. For a typically type of questioning like this, there are resposes which lasts for weeks but there are some questions for whom nobody seems to be bothered ? There was a queation which was thrown on this on TACACS ACS whether What could the issue that I am able to authenticate and not authorisation ,not a single person on this site bothered to answered ,not even Priscilla . Which sounds to be very starnge. There are so many people who r new to networking tech ,hence comes with some querry which might b stupid to some of our colleages but pls ensure that u were also like them during your initial phase ,hence try to rectify the querry rather than spending your precious time on stupid questions like ccie is superior or MS , what is the salary of CCIE ? I hope the message is clear to everybody Regards PIYUSH Note: forwarded message attached. Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web8002.mail.in.yahoo.com; 20 Dec 2002 07:36:38 +0500 (IST) Return-Path: X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from groupstudy.com (66.220.63.9) by mta102.in.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2002 07:34:44 +0500 (IST) Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA32069; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:04:32 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:50 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23691 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Received: (from nobody@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23686 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT From: Charlie Wehner X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Charlie Wehner Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 925 What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59605t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Hi piyush You are right but nobody is wasting time ,and from everthing we learn .see I read whole messages and discussion and learnt a lot.Moreover regarding the problem yeah whether its small or big we should answer,i think so everybody does and I also get a lot of answers for my stupid questions.So everybody please help out all those who have problems so that everyone can gain from your sols. Regards, Munit Mr piyush shah wrote: Dear friends It has been quite long that I have been hearing whether CCIE is superior or MS. I thing it is high time we should wrap the topic.I dont understand ,whether why this forum for ? It should b a purely technical. For a typically type of questioning like this, there are resposes which lasts for weeks but there are some questions for whom nobody seems to be bothered ? There was a queation which was thrown on this on TACACS ACS whether What could the issue that I am able to authenticate and not authorisation ,not a single person on this site bothered to answered ,not even Priscilla . Which sounds to be very starnge. There are so many people who r new to networking tech ,hence comes with some querry which might b stupid to some of our colleages but pls ensure that u were also like them during your initial phase ,hence try to rectify the querry rather than spending your precious time on stupid questions like ccie is superior or MS , what is the salary of CCIE ? I hope the message is clear to everybody Regards PIYUSH Note: forwarded message attached. Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web8002.mail.in.yahoo.com; 20 Dec 2002 07:36:38 +0500 (IST) Return-Path: X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from groupstudy.com (66.220.63.9) by mta102.in.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2002 07:34:44 +0500 (IST) Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA32069; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:04:32 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:50 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23691 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Received: (from nobody@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23686 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT From: Charlie Wehner X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Charlie Wehner Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 925 What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59607t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
If that were the real reading list for a BS degree, I would *LOVE* it. My problem is that they make you read all the fluffy stuff that you never wanted to read in the first place, and didnt go to college for, but they make you read anyway. And further, lets say you were an english major, do you really think that Calculus I would help you there? Jarett Charlie Wehner wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59614t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 1:37 PM + 12/20/02, Mr piyush shah wrote: Dear friends It has been quite long that I have been hearing whether CCIE is superior or MS. I thing it is high time we should wrap the topic.I dont understand ,whether why this forum for ? It should b a purely technical. For a typically type of questioning like this, there are resposes which lasts for weeks but there are some questions for whom nobody seems to be bothered ? There was a queation which was thrown on this on TACACS ACS whether What could the issue that I am able to authenticate and not authorisation ,not a single person on this site bothered to answered ,not even Priscilla . Let's consider whether people bother to respond. First, remember that everyone who does so is volunteering their time. They are not a substitute for the TAC or reference materials. Have you considered that at the time you asked the question, Priscilla might be on vacation, another expert has limited list access while on business travel (perhaps behind a strict firewall), and two others are trying to finish projects for which they are paid? The latter might scan the list, but not have 10-30 minutes to write a post. Indeed, many of those experts do not have the answer memorized, but would have to look it up -- admittedly much faster than would a beginner. Which sounds to be very starnge. There are so many people who r new to networking tech ,hence comes with some querry which might b stupid to some of our colleages but pls ensure that u were also like them during your initial phase , The following is not meant to be a put-down, but a reality of how some people started in networking technology. I was first responsible for a network in 1970, using Bell 100 series modems (300 bps) to a PDP-11 running critical medical applications. Most links were acoustically coupled dialups, but we did have a few dedicated lines (again at 300 bps). With about 10 user ports on the machine, we sometimes just ran out. Since one of the dedicated lines was only needed for backups at night, and another for reporting, I realized I could switch them to dialup during the day. There was no Black Box Catalog or the like. I needed to get a copy of RS-232 and learn the wiring, decide how many pins I had to switch, go to the electronics store and get an appropriate rotary switch and other components, and physically build the box, soldering the wires to the switch. I made some incorrect assumptions the first time, and had to use electronic test instruments to find what I had done wrong -- it turned out I wasn't clear about the functions of the Pin 1 and Pin 7 grounds. At the same time all of this was going on, I was the head of software development for the medical applications, so needed to both design, write, and manage development, as well as researching expert system rules for blood banking and clinical chemistry. So no, not everyone had the luxury of a list or even colleagues. hence try to rectify the querry rather than spending your precious time on stupid questions like ccie is superior or MS , what is the salary of CCIE ? And I will be perfectly honest. Sometimes, I may be in a hurry when reading the list, and there's a stupid question that I can answer from personal experience. Even when I answer a technical question with which I am very familiar, I often check the documentation -- Cisco or IETF -- to be sure I'm referring to the right document. On another list, for example, there was a DNS question. I knew the answer was in RFC 1033, 1034, or 1035, but wasn't sure which, and didn't have time to look it up. I cited the three documents, and said I _thought_ it was 1034. Looking it up later, it was 1035. I hope the message is clear to everybody Regards PIYUSH Note: forwarded message attached. Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web8002.mail.in.yahoo.com; 20 Dec 2002 07:36:38 +0500 (IST) Return-Path: X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from groupstudy.com (66.220.63.9) by mta102.in.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2002 07:34:44 +0500 (IST) Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA32069; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:04:32 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:50 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23691 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Received: (from nobody@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23686 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT From: Charlie Wehner X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Charlie Wehner
Re: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
This forum is not a purely techincal forum and thats where you're wrong. The group is groupstusy.cisco if you hadn't notice and its primary focus its studying for Cisco certification. CCIE is a certification. So I believe a discussion on peoples' opinions whether a going for a CCIE or MS, MBA would be a better for their situation and is a great question for the group. I think it provides the group with more useful and helpful information than a question like My customer needs a VPN setup. I have no experience in this so please send me the configs so I can set it up and collect my consulting fee. or I need to recover a password on my cisco 2500 series router. I'm to lazy to go to Cisco's site and type password recovery 2500, so could some one in the group go to Cisco's site find it for me and send me the link. If you want only a technical discussion try comp.dcom.sys.cisco . Mr piyush shah wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Dear friends It has been quite long that I have been hearing whether CCIE is superior or MS. I thing it is high time we should wrap the topic.I dont understand ,whether why this forum for ? It should b a purely technical. For a typically type of questioning like this, there are resposes which lasts for weeks but there are some questions for whom nobody seems to be bothered ? There was a queation which was thrown on this on TACACS ACS whether What could the issue that I am able to authenticate and not authorisation ,not a single person on this site bothered to answered ,not even Priscilla . Which sounds to be very starnge. There are so many people who r new to networking tech ,hence comes with some querry which might b stupid to some of our colleages but pls ensure that u were also like them during your initial phase ,hence try to rectify the querry rather than spending your precious time on stupid questions like ccie is superior or MS , what is the salary of CCIE ? I hope the message is clear to everybody Regards PIYUSH Note: forwarded message attached. Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web8002.mail.in.yahoo.com; 20 Dec 2002 07:36:38 +0500 (IST) Return-Path: X-Track: 1: 100 Return-Path: Received: from groupstudy.com (66.220.63.9) by mta102.in.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2002 07:34:44 +0500 (IST) Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA32069; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:04:32 GMT Received: by groupstudy.com (bulk_mailer v1.13); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:50 + Received: (from listserver@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23691 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Received: (from nobody@localhost) by groupstudy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23686 GroupStudy Mailer; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:26:48 GMT From: Charlie Wehner X-GroupStudy-Version: 3.1.1a X-GroupStudy: Network Technical To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Charlie Wehner Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 925 What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59613t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Steve Dispensa wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. I have a BA and have been blocked for a number of years on my MS in comp sci. The CCIE cert has meant much more to my career than any of the school-related stuff, in a direct sense: it allows me to get jobs/engagements/etc, and none of the jobs i'm interested in have required completion of the MS. If you were more interested in theoretical work, or perhaps with some employers (with dubious ability to evaluate a candidate), the degrees would be much more important. This *only* applies in the field of computer networking, though. If you want to do anything else, the CCIE is pretty worthless. Even in the networking world, the thought leadership doesn't much care about certs - witness IETF, NANOG, etc - nobody there mentions or cares about CCIE. Also, i have found in my career that many CCIEs (to say nothing of the rest) don't have a sound theoretical grounding at all. Things you learn in CS school really are important - queuing theory, optimization problems, statistics, problem complexity, and even (in particular) programming. You don't truly understand network protocols until you've done network programming IMHO. CCIE is a certification for people who like to get their hands dirty with routers. CCIEs are the best in the world at fixing broken networks, setting up new ones, and so on. They're *not* necessarily any good at anything else. This is a big difference from a Ph.D. or MS, which imply a solid, broad theoretical base in addition to an area of expertise. That's probably the best response I have heard all year. I would just add that the degree also significantly helps you if you have aspirations to rise in the managerial ranks, especially if you ever want to carry the title of CxO. That's not to say a degree is absolutely strictly required for such positions, but it's almost de-rigueur - you will find practically no managers at a high level in any large company who doesn't have at least a bachelor's (with perhaps the notable exception of them having founded the company themselves).Therefore the real question you need to ask yourself is do you still wanna be slinging boxes in 20 years, or do you wanna be ordering other people to sling boxes for you?Well, maybe you'll like slinging boxes 20 years later, but maybe you won't - who knows? The degree gives you valuable career flexibility. -sd (CCIE #5444) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59515t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
That is a very interesting question for me; Yestarday I went for a lunch with a friend that got his MS on Economy, and I asked him: - What do you think it would be better? Either use my time and energy to get certificate or go for a MS or MBA? He said: - Absolutely go to the Certification process. I asked him why, and he told me: - I just started to teach a certification course for professionals in Economic. It is an international certification, like the CCIE. The people who are taking this course could take a MBA or MS, because it is so expensive and time consuming as the others. But they need to take the certification because of its rigorous exam. I think the same is for the networing area. Will the MS represent that you has a good acknowledgment of an area? Unfortunately I know there are schools where you can finish the course without really knowing that much. At other side, it is really important, for all the explanations that was given, that you get also your BS and MS. Mic shoeps @groupstudy.com em 18/12/2002 15:37:59 Favor responder a Mic shoeps Enviado Por: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Assunto:CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59522t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Howard, just my 2 pence you know ... funny you should say about BGP ... I was just thinking that the other day... but I personally don`t agree with the new protocol theory... I personally don't claim to be able to do thisI can barely plug in a switch but as far as I am aware the ISP BGP world is an all seeing all knowing world were all OX amount of routes are seen by everyone ..and I believe this is where the problem lies. When designing a routing protocol ,there is a basic problem that all designer`s face is links go up/down ...route`s appear and disappear... the more routes you have the more the protocol has to do ...regardless of how you get around this fact with fancy techniques ,there will still be a scalability problem based around a connectivity problem ,the more routes the more unstable the less your inclined to scale the protocol`s I think can probably made more efficient ,but it does not address the real problem , that is the amount of routes that a being added daily make`s any computational algorithm`s task very difficult . the only way in my humble opinion to make this more stable/scaleable is to back to the OSPF DESIGN NOT PROTOCOL... Regionalise ...create Super AS for various regions i.e US UK JP AUS...and then Tag all routes coming out .. OK (in an ideal world) this IS NOT the only way of doing thingslink 1 of 8000 goes down ...your advertising all 8000 out of one supernet ... But atleast in this case only your Super ASBR`s if you like would only need to communicate with eachother ... perhaps this is what already happen`s but i see that a fundamental shift in the way we network is required and not necessarily a change in protocol many thanks (I`ll keep my head down now ...i think...i`m only trying to help !!!) Steve Original Message - From: The Long and Winding Road To: Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:05 AM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 6:37 PM + 12/18/02, Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Well, let's look at some especially important PhD dissertations: Radia Perlman: http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-429.pdf Steve Deering: http://www.tux.org/pub/net/ftp.ee.lbl.gov/sigcomm/sigcomm.ps Vern Paxson: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/paxson97measurements.html The content of many protocol RFCs is at a level that might be associated with PhD level research, although some of the most productive people with both operational and theoretical knowledge are college dropouts. Look through the list of RFCs and see how many that someone with a CCIE, and no theoretical* training could write. For example, we have fairly strong data that the path vector approach of BGP will not continue to scale as the Internet becomes more highly interconnected and there is more churn/flap. It's not directly a problem of the number of routes, but their interaction. A reasonable dissertation would propose the theory of a protocol to replace BGP, with some experimental backup. time for the old paradigm shift, eh, Howard? BTW - do you know why it only took God 6 days to create the universe? ;- -- *By theoretical, I don't mean as is often used on the list: how the protocol works and what are its messages. I mean WHY the protocol is designed the way it is, what alternatives were rejected, the problems it solves, etc. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59525t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... That is a very interesting question for me; Yestarday I went for a lunch with a friend that got his MS on Economy, and I asked him: - What do you think it would be better? Either use my time and energy to get certificate or go for a MS or MBA? He said: - Absolutely go to the Certification process. I asked him why, and he told me: - I just started to teach a certification course for professionals in Economic. It is an international certification, like the CCIE. The people who are taking this course could take a MBA or MS, because it is so expensive and time consuming as the others. But they need to take the certification because of its rigorous exam. I think the same is for the networing area. Will the MS represent that you has a good acknowledgment of an area? Unfortunately I know there are schools where you can finish the course without really knowing that much. I think a more fair comparison to make is to compare the CCIE vs. a degree from a prestigious school. I agree that getting a master's from a no-name place isn't going to do much for you. Also, it should be understood that often times it is not really the point to learn something while you're at school - the real value is in meeting people and getting access to a wide range of contacts. Why is the MBA from Harvard so coveted? Because it gives you entree to perhaps the most select and powerful group of alumni in the world. Let's face it - in the business world, it's not really what you know, it's who you know. At other side, it is really important, for all the explanations that was given, that you get also your BS and MS. Mic shoeps @groupstudy.com em 18/12/2002 15:37:59 Favor responder a Mic shoeps Enviado Por: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Assunto:CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59552t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
What's more difficult? a) Memorizing configuration scenerios and commands on a Cisco router b) Understanding Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Chemistry, Physics and Electrical Engineering well enough to create a meaningful experiment. One of my friends is working on his masters in Physics right now. What he's working on makes the CCIE look like a walk through the park. Seriously, what if the recommended reading list for the CCIE exam looked like this: Physics I and II Calculus I,II,III Differential Equations Mechanics Circuit Analysis I and II Linear Systems Thermodynamics Quantum Mechanics Optics Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59579t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I suppose a CCIE is sort of a Ph.D. of networking. Studying for and taking the written is the equivalent of coursework, then doing hands-on to prepare for the lab is like research for your dissertation, the the lab test represents the oral exam. But I wouldn't stretch the analogy too far. For one thing the quality and difficulty of computer science graduate schools varies greatly. Just getting into one of the top programs is probably harder than CCIE. And for another the two programs don't really test the same skills, do they? (Though they surely overlap) Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59483t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
This is a great question. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59484t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Four to six years ago I would have highly agreed with your friend in saying that the CCIE is much more difficult to obtain than most if not all degrees. However, with the developments over the recent years and popularity of the CCIE it has been commoditized. This cert use to be of a nature that represented a greater value and higher standard for those of us in this industry. I am not speaking for everyone. I have not ran across a CCIE (with the exception of a very few) in the past three to four years that could hold their ground at equal rate; as Socrates would put it. I can only imagine the extent of backlash of comments from people on this list. I encourage all those who wish to pursue the CCIE whether it be for their own personal reasons or for the monetary value. There is a great deal of credibility to obtaining a CCIE cert but it has become much easier to obtain in recent years. If I have offended anyone for my comments I wish to extend my apologies now as it was not my intent to do so. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59486t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
MS- or PhD-level coursework is more difficult than what you'll run into studying for the CCIE, but they don't really cover the same subject matter so it's really apples and oranges. I personally don't even have a BS--which I regret--but it wouldn't help much in my current position anyway, except possibly for promotions or raises, which is important, but it wouldn't help me do my job any better. IMO, someone who pursues an MS or PhD is not planning on remaining a network technician for long; they probably have loftier goals. A CCIE with no degree, on the other hand, likely enjoys the technical side of things. I often heard it lamented that many CCIEs who are loving life as senior engineers end up being placed into management positions that they hate. Just because someone is advanced in a technical area does not necessarily make them management material. OTOH, someone with an MS or PhD is quite often management material, but not necessarily the first person you'd call with a general networking question. That depends on their area of emphasis, of course. So, my opinion? You're compairing apples to oranges, but an MS or PhD is tougher than CCIE if you're going to a reputable school. Regards, John Black Jack 12/18/02 12:05:01 PM I suppose a CCIE is sort of a Ph.D. of networking. Studying for and taking the written is the equivalent of coursework, then doing hands-on to prepare for the lab is like research for your dissertation, the the lab test represents the oral exam. But I wouldn't stretch the analogy too far. For one thing the quality and difficulty of computer science graduate schools varies greatly. Just getting into one of the top programs is probably harder than CCIE. And for another the two programs don't really test the same skills, do they? (Though they surely overlap) Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59488t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Degree is safer. Especially now. - Original Message - From: timothy To: Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] This is a great question. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 12/6/2002 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59489t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
at equal rate; as Socrates would put it. Aristotle as opposed to Socrates... my bad.. knew something was off about that.. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59490t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. I have a BA and have been blocked for a number of years on my MS in comp sci. The CCIE cert has meant much more to my career than any of the school-related stuff, in a direct sense: it allows me to get jobs/engagements/etc, and none of the jobs i'm interested in have required completion of the MS. If you were more interested in theoretical work, or perhaps with some employers (with dubious ability to evaluate a candidate), the degrees would be much more important. This *only* applies in the field of computer networking, though. If you want to do anything else, the CCIE is pretty worthless. Even in the networking world, the thought leadership doesn't much care about certs - witness IETF, NANOG, etc - nobody there mentions or cares about CCIE. Also, i have found in my career that many CCIEs (to say nothing of the rest) don't have a sound theoretical grounding at all. Things you learn in CS school really are important - queuing theory, optimization problems, statistics, problem complexity, and even (in particular) programming. You don't truly understand network protocols until you've done network programming IMHO. CCIE is a certification for people who like to get their hands dirty with routers. CCIEs are the best in the world at fixing broken networks, setting up new ones, and so on. They're *not* necessarily any good at anything else. This is a big difference from a Ph.D. or MS, which imply a solid, broad theoretical base in addition to an area of expertise. -sd (CCIE #5444) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59494t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
I remember telling one of my professors that I am currently pursueing CCIE written...not even the lab. This was a few months ago. His response (he is a PH.d in electrical eng) said, OH, why aren't you in the master of engineering program ? I looked at him funny:) -Original Message- From: Steve Dispensa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 3:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481] I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. I have a BA and have been blocked for a number of years on my MS in comp sci. The CCIE cert has meant much more to my career than any of the school-related stuff, in a direct sense: it allows me to get jobs/engagements/etc, and none of the jobs i'm interested in have required completion of the MS. If you were more interested in theoretical work, or perhaps with some employers (with dubious ability to evaluate a candidate), the degrees would be much more important. This *only* applies in the field of computer networking, though. If you want to do anything else, the CCIE is pretty worthless. Even in the networking world, the thought leadership doesn't much care about certs - witness IETF, NANOG, etc - nobody there mentions or cares about CCIE. Also, i have found in my career that many CCIEs (to say nothing of the rest) don't have a sound theoretical grounding at all. Things you learn in CS school really are important - queuing theory, optimization problems, statistics, problem complexity, and even (in particular) programming. You don't truly understand network protocols until you've done network programming IMHO. CCIE is a certification for people who like to get their hands dirty with routers. CCIEs are the best in the world at fixing broken networks, setting up new ones, and so on. They're *not* necessarily any good at anything else. This is a big difference from a Ph.D. or MS, which imply a solid, broad theoretical base in addition to an area of expertise. -sd (CCIE #5444) Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59495t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Oh, please. At 06:37 PM 12/18/2002 +, Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59505t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 6:37 PM + 12/18/02, Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Offhand, I know of two joint PhD/CCIEs, Dima Krioukov and Pete Welcher. I'm sure there are more. Perhaps they are monitoring and could comment. But let's look at some especially important PhD dissertations, and compare them to CCIE: Radia Perlman: http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-429.pdf Steve Deering: http://www.tux.org/pub/net/ftp.ee.lbl.gov/sigcomm/sigcomm.ps Vern Paxson: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/paxson97measurements.html The content of many protocol RFCs is at a level that might be associated with PhD level research, although some of the most productive people with both operational and theoretical knowledge are college dropouts. Look through the list of RFCs and see how many that someone with a CCIE, and no theoretical* training could write. For example, we have fairly strong data that the path vector approach of BGP will not continue to scale as the Internet becomes more highly interconnected and there is more churn/flap. It's not directly a problem of the number of routes, but their interaction. A reasonable dissertation would propose the theory of a protocol to replace BGP, with some experimental backup. -- *By theoretical, I don't mean as is often used on the list: how the protocol works and what are its messages. I mean WHY the protocol is designed the way it is, what alternatives were rejected, the problems it solves, etc. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59506t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
At 6:37 PM + 12/18/02, Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Well, let's look at some especially important PhD dissertations: Radia Perlman: http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-429.pdf Steve Deering: http://www.tux.org/pub/net/ftp.ee.lbl.gov/sigcomm/sigcomm.ps Vern Paxson: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/paxson97measurements.html The content of many protocol RFCs is at a level that might be associated with PhD level research, although some of the most productive people with both operational and theoretical knowledge are college dropouts. Look through the list of RFCs and see how many that someone with a CCIE, and no theoretical* training could write. For example, we have fairly strong data that the path vector approach of BGP will not continue to scale as the Internet becomes more highly interconnected and there is more churn/flap. It's not directly a problem of the number of routes, but their interaction. A reasonable dissertation would propose the theory of a protocol to replace BGP, with some experimental backup. -- *By theoretical, I don't mean as is often used on the list: how the protocol works and what are its messages. I mean WHY the protocol is designed the way it is, what alternatives were rejected, the problems it solves, etc. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59508t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. BS or MS dergree [7:59481]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... At 6:37 PM + 12/18/02, Mic shoeps wrote: Hello I've been arguing with a collegue of mine which one would be tougher to achieve. I told him that it would be much more harder to have a computer science or a networking degree (you have to take the GRE and complete 2 or 3 years of school works) than a CCIE, but my collegue think other wise. He literally believes that having a CCIE is equivalent of having a Ph.d in Networking. I'd like to hear your thought. Well, let's look at some especially important PhD dissertations: Radia Perlman: http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-429.pdf Steve Deering: http://www.tux.org/pub/net/ftp.ee.lbl.gov/sigcomm/sigcomm.ps Vern Paxson: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/paxson97measurements.html The content of many protocol RFCs is at a level that might be associated with PhD level research, although some of the most productive people with both operational and theoretical knowledge are college dropouts. Look through the list of RFCs and see how many that someone with a CCIE, and no theoretical* training could write. For example, we have fairly strong data that the path vector approach of BGP will not continue to scale as the Internet becomes more highly interconnected and there is more churn/flap. It's not directly a problem of the number of routes, but their interaction. A reasonable dissertation would propose the theory of a protocol to replace BGP, with some experimental backup. time for the old paradigm shift, eh, Howard? BTW - do you know why it only took God 6 days to create the universe? ;- -- *By theoretical, I don't mean as is often used on the list: how the protocol works and what are its messages. I mean WHY the protocol is designed the way it is, what alternatives were rejected, the problems it solves, etc. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=59510t=59481 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
