Re: Stus-List Shaft coupler removal
You may want to try cooling the shaft as much as possible while heating the coupling. If the coupling is cast iron or similar the coefficient of expansion is different from 304 SS. https://amesweb.info/Materials/Linear-Thermal-Expansion-Coefficient-Metals.aspx While it isn't much heating both equally looks like it might make them bind more. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Doug Mountjoy To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Sent: 6/1/2020 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Shaft coupler removal I would give it a try. I have never used Mapp gas. You will want to use as hot of flame as possible. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 8:21 AM Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote: You think Map gas will be good enough? On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 11:17 Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List wrote: Josh, I used to work in a machine shop where I had to remove gears off of shafts. We used an acetylene torch to heat the gear fast, so the shaft didn't expand as fast. Using a slow heat source will heat the coupling and shaft at about the same rate. You want to expand the coupling faster than the shaft expands. Doug Mountjoy sv Rebecca Leah C&C Landfall 39 Port Orchard yacht club___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray -- Douglas Mountjoy 253-208-1412 Port Orchard YC, WA Rebecca Leah C&C LandFall 39 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Source for long stainless/brass screws
Try Pacific Fasteners in Toronto. https://www.pacfast.com/ Mike Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: To: Sent: 5/22/2020 9:14 PM Subject: Stus-List Source for long stainless/brass screws I’m having difficulty finding a supplier of the 6” screws - preferably stainless, but will settle for brass - to re-install the interior and exterior handrails on our C&C 30 MKI. I’m not sure if they are a no. 10 or 12. Recommendations would be much appreciated, preferably in Canada. David J. Morris, MBA President, D.J. Morris & Associates Ltd. 24 St. Paul’s Place, Kingston, ON K7M 7S3 Tel. 613-531-4429 email: djmor...@djma-ltd.com Member: Canadian Freelance Guild Blogging at: http://davidmorrisjourneys.wordpress.com/ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I
I have been flying both sym and asym spinnakers on Windburn for the last few years. A small tack point has been added on the bow forward of everything for the asym. I found that using an oversized pole works better, maybe a C&C 30-1 thing. Pulling the pole back a bit and getting some more chute in front generates way more power than centerline tacking. Enough of a difference to make up for sailing a bit deeper. The largest chutes are 195%, about a 26.5' foot on the asym, and 26.3' max girth on the sym. The load on the guy is high so the line runs through a snatch block to the primary winch. It is a Samson line with a no stretch core, normal good double braid was a problem. At higher wind speeds the force back through the spinnaker pole has to be hundreds of pounds. I upgraded the spin track and car to the midsize Harken series. Even with that it is dicey adjusting the height while flying. The Torlon bearings appear to go slightly oval each season so that is on the winter maintence replace list. When flying the asym at 100 degrees AWA or tighter in heavier winds the genoa does not depower the spinnaker for take down. If it gets even slightly away from you it will fill, sometimes pretty violently. I am glad the 30-1 is so heavily over built. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford To: cnc-list Sent: 5/15/2020 12:22 PM Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I Listers- A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a top-down furler to his Ranger 28. Wednesday night in light air I beat him to the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me like a bad habit. He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences). It was an eye-opening demonstration. So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete. I know a guy who flew one on a 30 MK I. He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, and had a sock instead of a furler. If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be able to set sails as fast as him. So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using a sock. I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler. Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker? I did some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list. Any advice or recommendations? Thanks, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30 MK I #79 Ken Caryl, CO ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
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The National Yacht Club, Toronto, has closed food services and cancelled Sailor's Night, training courses and everything else. What are clubs doing that normally would be launching next month? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing
Let me guess, easiest take down ever. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Della Barba, Joe" To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Sent: 12/19/2019 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing During an informal race up the Chester with a C&C 40 it was just my wife on board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach for a section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit and launched red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river L I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were going to cost more than what her car was worth to replace. On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still flying! Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Risch via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 11:15 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: David Risch Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing Breakage…don’t forget the breakage - David F. Risch (401) 419-4650 From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Dennis C. via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs. Years ago, at the height of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two part high tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers (twings), custom chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side of cabin and is trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a "defraculator" (don't ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more boat bucks of stuff I can't recall. I'm guessing all that adds up to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks. You don't need to dive in that deep. A used chute, a few blocks and some old sheets will start you off just fine. Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun. The best way to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat. That's what I did. I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my own racing program. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List wrote: You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc. I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive arena. Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for us--except for those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to race fairly against them. Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of the time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective as...es to come in last among the best local racers. That's my story and I am sticking to it!! Charlie Nelson Water Phantom C&C 36 XL/kcb ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List 30 MK I Weight
I assume that is including mast, rigging and maybe a boom vang? Is Grenadine tiller, maybe 60 pounds lighter than a wheel? With Windburn reasonably cleaned out but leaving all of the requisite safety equipment on the weight is around 9500 pounds at haulout. That is without the mast, shrouds, forestay and backstay. With those added, a main and genoa but no crew I will guess the minimum weight I can sail at is 10,000. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford To: cnc-list Sent: 12/16/2019 6:44 PM Subject: Stus-List 30 MK I Weight I weighed Grenadine (hull #79, 1972) on a truck scale when I bought her - trailer with loaded boat, less empty trailer after launch. By unloading and weighing all loose gear I calculated she weighed 8682 pounds with empty tanks and nothing aboard but her two batteries. Her as-sailed weight is more like 9220 pounds before crew. Cheers, Randy On Dec 16, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List wrote: The listed weight of the 30-1 on the spec sheets is 8000#. I doubt there was ever one that light. The ones which have been weighed seem to hover around 9000. After looking at Rich’s #1, I can see a lot of differences, such as his chainplate system. And, after seeing pictures of other boats – mine has the teak and holly floor throughout, a sump pump for the shower, pressure water, hot water heater, two batteries, and the three burner propane stove/oven which were accessories. >From some earlier comments by owners, I don’t think the raising of the boom >did much for performance, but it did relieve a lot of headaches. And I agree with Michael, the boat does quite well in 15 knots and above. Gary From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 8:29 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments Also the 30-1 is far from a one design. The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by side with obvious differences in the spreader height. At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
There is not much consistency between PHRF districts on rating adjustments for items like sail measurements or prop type. That makes comparing the class PHRF ( SP - speed potential ) and individual boat PHRF ( ASP - adjusted speed potential ) difficult without knowing all the details. As an example ... PHRF-LO has numerous adjustments, both penalties and credits. On the main sail we measure HW ( head width ), MGT ( mid girth top - 7/8 ), MGU ( mid girth upper - 3/4) and MGM ( mid girth - 1/2 ). The hoist ( P ) and foot ( E ) are from tables. The measured sail area ( MAmsd ) is compared to the standard sail area ( MAstd ) to get a ratio which then gives a penalty or credit. Of note is that the standard main sail area assumes a lot of roach. MAIN AREA Standard (MAstd): HWstd = 0.04 * E or 0.5’ (whichever is greater) MGT = 0.22 * E MGUstd = 0.38 * E MGMstd = 0.65 * E MAStd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGMstd+1.5*MGUstd+MGTstd+0.5*HWstd) MAIN AREA Measured (MAmsd) : MAMsd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGM+1.5*MGU+MGT+0.5*HW) The ratio will provide the percent sail area for adjustment of the ASP. https://www.phrf-lo.org/images/Meetings/MainsailTable_2017.pdf Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Joel Aronson To: cnc-list Sent: 12/16/2019 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments PHRF of the Chesapeake gives credit for genoas under 140%. 140 is the same as 155 for ratings purposes. There is an adjustment for folding/feathering props, but I think it is only 6 seconds. On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 1:46 PM Gary Nylander via CnC-List wrote: PHRF of the Chesapeake assumes you have a prepared boat. That means good to excellent sails, a crack crew, clean bottom, folding or feathering prop, and so forth. They used to assume a 155% genoa, but I have seen some adjustments for smaller or larger (class boats). They are also coming up with a double handed fleet, cruising classes, and so forth – some of which fall outside of PHRF. Any way to get boats out of their slips. Gary From: CnC-List On Behalf Of CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 9:20 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments My two cents; With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a judgement. Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was denied. He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing season. The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom. Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors? I heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds. Chuck, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote: Thank you all for the responses on this subject. I got information I was looking for: * The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on performance. * The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly. Its principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's performance. * At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on results. * In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray -- Joel ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
Also the 30-1 is far from a one design. The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by side with obvious differences in the spreader height. At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Fred Hazzard To: Sent: 12/13/2019 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for example. Fred Hazzard S/V Fury C&C 44 Portland Or On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List wrote: I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel – and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and some cabinet doors. Gary Nylander ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
The clubs in PHRF-LO submit race results at the end of the season. All the data gets entered and we get race analysis back. Some filtering goes on to drop nights with wind issues, boats that raced less than three times, races with less than three boats. Classes that consistently perform ( calculated ASP ) differently from their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford To: Sent: 12/12/2019 5:36 PM Subject: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments? The introduction in “the book” (https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined estimate of its speed potential.” And a review of https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based on local experience. So, how many of y’all do that? Cheers, Randy On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List wrote: Dear Sir, RE: Randy Stafford S/V Grenadin C&C 30 MK I #79 LISTED as Hull #7 I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat. With over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document. I expect the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms. I have suggested that the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race. Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport. You should hear from the PHRF board by the end of the month. Regretfully, Lee Yea, cold and wet in Seattle On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote: Listers- When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on this old post: http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html. Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C&C Owners Group where a guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672. I emailed Rob Ball hoping for clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts. Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7. So the HIN format C&C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up. I’ll be damned, I said. All this time I thought I had hull #7. Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply “30-1 1971N”. Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but hasn’t posted his HIN yet. Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was made in 1971. Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 boat. Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat. The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard from here or in the Facebook group. Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is CCY301231172 (CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t open until February 1976) It seems clear that C&C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the production run. And I shall change my email signature according to what I’ve learnt. Cheers, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30 MK I #79 Ken Caryl, CO___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
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The high water levels from 2017 and this year has lead to a lot of repair and replacement costs at the club I am at, The National Yacht Club on Lake Ontario. Some of the infrastructure was getting on in age and would have been replaced soon. The high water both years flooded the basin side walkway for weeks. After the level went down this year all the paver stones were lifted, new fill put in and the wall topped with another 8" of timber. At the same time the water and power services were replaced. Looks nice but I think it ended up at around $100,000 not including the members volunteer time. The breakwalls, owned by the city, were completely under water at times both in 2017 and this year. >From most angles the club is protected but a SW storm leaves it exposed. After >a couple of particularly strong storms and waves the front dock was worn out, hinges and anchor points damaged beyond feasible repair. The dock was replaced this spring for around $300,000. At the end of October a storm passed through Ontario, Quebec and out East leaving over a million homes without power and causing damage. Thankfully we had just completed our haul out with only a few boats left at the docks. The storm broke four boats free. A Beneteau First Class 12 was forced up onto our floating docks, a CS30 broke numerous boards and a visiting power boat was twisted sideways between two finger docks. The power boat had a hole punched through above the water line. One of the docks is broken and sunk for a section. The club has hired divers to inspect the damage. A guess is over 20 anchors, chains or mount points need repair at an estimate of $2,000 each. The National did stay open and operational with decks built to address the flooded walkways. Other clubs took a lot of damage and were not able to use their docks or walls for some or all of the season. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Starting An Engine with Battery Charger Connected?
I think the NOCO chargers are switcher based rather than large transformer and large capacitor. The are much lighter in weight than some brands. I have two of the automotive line installed on Windburn in a dry location. NOCO also makes IP68 marine chargers. They work fine and do seem to charge up the batteries quickly despite the lower amp rating ( 7.2 ). A friend tried out a larger one, think it was 15 amp, to see if it would solve a situation where his previous charger seemed to cycle on and off when the fridge ( 12 V only ) ran. He said when in voltage float mode the NOCO kept the voltage stable as noted by a fan not speeding up and down. The larger units have a "Jump Charge" button that will start charging an almost flat battery. I think it acts as a constant current source for a few minutes, enough to get some charge back into the battery. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Josh Muckley To: C&C List Sent: 10/31/2019 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Starting An Engine with Battery Charger Connected? As far as I know all the modern chargers have charge capacitors that will create a pretty good draw when first turned on until the caps are charged. A well designed unit should not be connecting to the battery until the caps are charged and the output voltage is stable. I would try starting the charger and taking voltage readings at the battery. Then try starting the charger with the battery disconnected. You might also try with the battery connected and already full charged (use a portable automotive charger to get them full first). It could be a old 20amp breaker that is popping early. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
Comments below Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford To: cnc-list Sent: 6/27/2019 10:16 AM Subject: Stus-List Survey About Racing Hello Listers, I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping into the broad experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this list. What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which expanded into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance. I’d like to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to add into that discussion. So here are some fairly objective survey questions, for those of you who race your boats: 1. Where do you race? Lake Ontario 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 6 - 14 knots in the spring. Lots of light or dead air in the summer. Frequent storms, squalls may hit 40 - 60 knots briefly. When the lake is cold there can be wind shear. 3. What kind of courses do you sail? W/L club races and at regattas, short ( < 20 nm ) medium ( < 100 nm ) and one long ( Lake Ontario 300 ) course race, 4. What sail plan do you fly? Mainly flying sail. 195% spinnakers both asymm and symm from a pole. 5. What model of boat are you racing? C&C 30-1 < 506 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) PHRF-LO FS: 175 NFS: 199 credit of 4 sec/mile for the main, -3 sec/mile penalty for 195% spin. Note that PHRF-LO adjusts based on main sail area but calculates the standard area using a default with lots of roach. My main does touch the backstay, lightly hangs up on tacks. 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? Surfing under spinnaker. The C&C 30-1 is difficult to get over hull speed so even reaching at 30+ knots doesn't get close to planning ;-) 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay fairly constant? Some of the division have a wide rating spread, the fast boats pull ahead and stay there. With light summer wind and the random wind hole lead reversals are common. 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? As little as 4, as much as 11. 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Windburn even for a C&C 30-1 is heavy. We are disadvantaged in light air, do well in heavy air. As a guess 75% of the time we are in the top 3. On our best days we have taken first at the Youngstown Levels, Lake Ontario 300 and LOSHRS races. And now a few more subjective questions: 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind of course with a particular sail plan? PHRF-LO states that the rating is suitable ( paraphrasing it here ) for windward leeward course of one mile legs in winds of 4 to 18 knots. No data from triangular or course racing is analyzed for rating reviews. 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your boat? Initially a new boat ( class ) goes through an assessment at a handicapper's district meeting. We discuss everything including US PHRF data, sister classes and comparable. We make a best estimate then the rating is adjusted by -6 sec/mile "Protect The Fleet" for the first year until race data is available. 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance against your competition? Making the best of a heavy C&C 30-1. Recently the addition of North Sails 3Di 155% raw genoa and main has helped a lot in the light wind. 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your competition? Calling lay lines, watching for shifts, avoiding wind holes Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. Best Regards, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List 30 MK I PHRF Rating
Some notes on the C&C 30 rating history at PHRF Lake Ontario. 1985 FS:168 NFS:168 Record created in the current database 1996 FS:162 NFS:162 Handicap adjustment by Central Council based on performance history 2000 FS:162 NFS:180 +18 Disconnect of NFS-SP from FS-SP rating 2006 FS:168 NFS:186 PHRF-LO did a blanket +6 sec/mile adjustment to all classes, more inline with other PHRF regions 2010 FS:174 NFS:186 Performance based review by Central Council 2012 FS:174 NFS:195 A VPP analysis of "NFS-Delta" using a formula from Jim Teeters changed the delta from 12 sec/mile to 21 sec/mile. All classes were reviewed ( that fly spinnaker ) Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford To: cnc-list Sent: 6/11/2019 3:13 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MK I PHRF Rating Thanks y’all for your interesting comments on this. I got my new rating yesterday and it came back 180. The handicapper wrote in the “notes and clarifications” section of my RSA’s PHRF certificate form the following: "There are no comparables listed in US Sailing for this model of boat in the Rocky Mountain Region. This is a compromise between lake sailing ratings of 174 at Lake Norman, Oklahoma and Texoma, TX; and the previous rating for this boat of 186/198. Mitigating factors are: 1. +10% above base weight, even when empty; 2. The lighter air pressure at altitude which makes it even more difficult to move a heavy boat.” The 10% over base weight remark was from a discussion she and I had on “brochure weight” (8000 lbs for a 30 MK I as on sailboatdata.com) versus actual weight. I’ve actually weighed my boat on a truck scale, and weighed all her gear. I calculate she weighs about 8682 pounds with empty tanks and no gear aboard. So with full fuel tank, anchor & rode, sails, etc., her as-raced weight is closer to 9000 pounds before crew weight. According to the Schell regression formula, that 1000-pound difference in brochure versus actual weight translates to at least six seconds difference in rating, so the handicapper gave that to me. In my RSA we don’t really have the local politics as badly as in some other areas apparently. The handicapping committee is one volunteer, and the position turns over every few years. I think most of our handicappers have tried to do a reasonably fair job with the information they have available. And none of them have been from the sailing industry. That said, there are a couple boats in my fleet in my club that seem to have gift ratings. There’s a Catalina 25 to which I give 43 sec/nm, and a Cal 22 to which I give 48 sec/nm. In light air with everybody executing well, I might not beat them uncorrected, let alone corrected. Both boats seem to be rated at least 12 seconds slower in my RSA than in most others RSAs in the US, and I’m sure their owners would strongly resist lowering their ratings, because they win a lot on corrected time. I had a half-dozen races last year where I took line honors and they corrected over me. My main competition is a pair of Catalina 27s and a Ranger 26, all well-sailed. In heavy air the Ranger 26 can’t stay in control; he has to depower way before I do. A couple times a season when the wind is really up, I’ll have the joy of beating the fleet by three minutes in a half-hour race. But that’s the exception to the rule where I sail. And unfortunately for me the Ranger 26’s rating didn’t change this year, whereas mine did - six seconds faster. I accept that PHRF is an imperfect system. At the end of the day, I’m out there on Wednesday nights to have fun. That said, I like the competition, and I’d like it to be as fair as possible. Cheers, Randy S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:27 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote: Hi Randy When comparing boats across different areas make sure you look at other boats in those areas as well. Pacific NW tends to rate most of their fleet 9 – 12 sec/mile slower than most other areas … not just the C&C 30. Also look at the prevailing wind conditions in the areas. Northern California is known to be windy whereas LI Sound is known for fairly light winds. A C&C 30-1 would perform much better in the windier areas and should have a faster rating in Northern California than in LIS for example. Yes PHRF sucks. However all of the systems suck. Some suck worse than others. ORR, IMS, IRC, etc …require measurements of each boat. It is difficult to find a measurer and quite expensive to get a boat measured. However a measurement rule seems to be a lot fairer for point to point distance racing than a single number system. You can have a race like Marblehead to Halifax that is hundreds of miles of mostly reaching. In that sort of race a big long waterline boat that is horrible at W/L short leg races will tend to do very well as it would be on its
Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in meeting notes from 2008 and 2009. WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole lengths. 2009 Spring Meeting. https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current documentation but I do not see any. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 + From: "Hoyt, Mike" To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Michael Check the PHRF-LO bylaws carefully. In PHRF-NS the whicker pole is considered to be a spinnaker pole which is limited to J. You may wish to look in a definitions section if one is available. I have been involved with handicapping for many years in our region and this is my understanding of how most areas do it. However I do know there are some areas that have separate limit for whisker pole than for spinnaker pole that is permitted to be longer than J ? I just cannot recall at this time which areas those are Mike Persistence Halifax, NS ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
I race handicapped by PHRF Lake Ontario which has no rating adjustment for whisker pole length. I picked up a Forespar Line Control which goes out to 22', a fair bit for a 30' boat. In light air, 4 knots TWS, setting the sails perpendicular to the wind works as well as anything else I have tried. That has the pole low at both ends, barely above the lifelines. At a higher wind speed the common advise is to trim the genoa so the wind flows around it as opposed to it being a barn door. That will bring the pole back so it is more perpendicular to the wind, usually the inboard end up the mast a bit and the leach pointing into the wind. A bit like trimming a spinnaker. Forespar has a diagram here: https://www.forespar.com/pdf/F6.1-whisker-pole-brochure.pdf Not having the leech bouncing around helps. For me that means adjusting the inboard end to get enough down pressure. For a genoa with a 21' LP I will use all 22' of whisker pole in light air and about 18' in moderate air. In heavier air I switch to the spin pole which is 14.5' ( oversized and I take a penalty ). I can tell it is not optimal but works OK. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 12:42 PM Cc: David Knecht We race non-spinnaker class and a few years ago I got an extendable whisker pole for the genoa. I am unsure about optimal settings for pole height and length. I suspect it is sometimes suboptimal because I have noticed some boats able to carry the genoa poled out at much closer angles than I have achieved. Presumably the optimal pole angle is near perpendicular to the apparent wind. It seems that extending the pole flattens the sail to some extent but I suspect it is more complicated than that. Height I have no idea. Any general rules of thumb? Related to this, the VMG chart I have from C&C has optimal VMG downwind apparent angle of about 140-145? true. Are those numbers +spinnaker, -spinnaker standard or -spinnaker wing on wing with whisker pole? Thanks- Dave S/V Aries 1990 C&C 34+ New London, CT ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Lady Down...
I would be interested in some opinions on the use of stands. I am on the Launch & Haulout team at the club I am at, chair for a few years. We have required cradles for sailboats and have accepted stands for power boats by exception only. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 14:38:32 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" We had four large powerboats fall off jack stands in Erie. The cradles all fared okay. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Older GPS units may have issue after April 6, 2019
I would hope anything made since the last time this happened is OK. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/08/biztech/articles/23gps.html There was a related problem, confusion of whether the 1024 weeks were numbered as 0 - 1023 or 1 - 1024. A long standing tech joke, if it is 0 - 1023 it is a software programmer, if it is 1 - 1024 it is a hardware designer. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:29:11 -0700 From: "Dennis C." I just read an article that GPS time will be reset on April 6, 2019. That may affect older GPS units. https://liliputing.com/2019/02/old-gps-devices-may-stop-working-properly-in-april.html I must admit ignorance on the substance of this atricle and what it means. Anybody got a decent understanding of this situation? I have an old Garmin 128, circa 1999, which I use as a back up to my newer Garmin. I'd hate to lose accuracy on the older unit. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Mast Wedge Help
After trying various things including nothing I have been happy with thick rubber pads. I purchase a couple of feet from a roll and trimmed it. This may be the product, I think there was a choice of thicknesses at the store: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/heavy-duty-checker-plate-rolled-rubber-mat-by-the-foot-/A-p8681660e My thoughts were that the C&C 30-1 mast is stiff and even with a lot of pressure on the backstay it did not bend much with the mast blocked hard in the collar. There was some bend but more just pulling the masthead back inducing rake rather than putting a curve into the mast. When the mast is stepped I can leave the strips out, center and tune everything, then may adjust the heel to center the mast in the collar. The strips are in two pieces and run in a semicircle at the front and back leaving room for the hold down strips. The mat thickness I am using, slightly less than a quarter inch, will slide in from the bottom by forcing the mast back then forward. When checking the mast you may want to take the mast top casting off, held on by eight machine screws. The original sheaves are aluminum with a pressed oilite bronze bearing. If the bearing wears or crushes out the sheaves can lean, wear or jam. I replaced the bearings and found them to have worn significantly in two years. I replaced them with "hard plastic" Acetal sheaves that are wire rated though I have all rope halyards. I drilled the centers out to a larger diameter and made a plain bearing arrangement with another Acetal donut forced over the stainless axel. That has lasted years with no wear and is much easier to hoist with. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 21:58:27 -0500 From: "Steven A. Demore" I had my C&C 30 MK1 dismasted yesterday to do some work on it. The boat came with no wedges in the deck collar, so I made some one day, just to get through summer. While taking down the mast yesterday, I asked the rigger what kind of wedges it should have. He said he wasn't sure whether C&Cs came with wedges, or a metal spacer. Does anybody know what the factory used to support the mast through the deck? Also, while I am at it. Any suggestions on anything I should be checking on the mast? I'm replacing the wiring, going to LED lights, replacing all of the running rigging, new blocks and sheaves, and checking out the step. The boom has the internal blocks and wire for tensioning the foot of the main, but I don't know whether that is accessible for maintenance or not. One last thing. I was planning to mount steps (the triangular aluminum ones) on the sides of the mast. The rigger recommended against it because of the number of holes in the mast. Anybody have thought on whether a series of small holes (1/8, 3/16??) would weaken the mast? Thanks, Steve ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List yoga mat winterizing
I see on the weekend Ottawa had a couple of notable events. It was the coldest capital city in the world, beat out Helsinki, Moscow and "Ulaanbaatar" ( Mongolia ). It broke a 100 year record for the coldest temperature during a snow storm. I was watching Windy and various sites, quite the temperature gradient from Ontario done through to New Jersey. The warmth from the gulf stream had Atlantic City up to 56F noon on Sunday while closer to Lake Ontario is was well below 0F. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:31:12 + From: Marek Dziedzic Joe, if you can keep above freezing temperature in a boat with a 600 W heater, you don?t have artic temperatures (;-). Here, for the last 5 days, we hit 15 (F) once, but mostly we are hovering below 0 F, mostly in the minus teens. No insulation would keep the boat above freezing. I hardly can keep myself from freezing and I use stuff better than a yoga mat (;-). Marek Ottawa, ON ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
Thanks for pointing out the case study, looks to be pretty clear on the topic. I had asked about the use of a reaching strut and was told it was an outrigger. Maybe the ISAF findings are not applicable here, no idea. I will check again and specifically point out that case. So leaning out as long as the torso is not outside of the lifelines ( RRS 48.2 ) and holding a sheet is fine. There may be an reaching strut project in my future. I didn't see your update before I emailed. I have the list set to digest mode so I get some delay in seeing everyone's emails. I don't always check them promptly either, sometimes busy or away. I do enjoy them, always informative. Or funny. Or both. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:32:28 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PM Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Michael: I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97. I don?t know who decides cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation). I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or something. When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond). I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger. I found Case 97, which interpreted the term ?outrigger? as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit ?jockey poles? because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail. A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up comment below that you ?have not found an exception.? Case 97 clearly interprets the term ?outrigger? as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts). Am I missing something? Matt Wolford C&C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimers for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed to something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it falls under the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggers are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance of RRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, so took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules was required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90 PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world champions in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement
The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimers for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed to something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it falls under the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggers are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance of RRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, so took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules was required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90 PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world champions in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:05:25 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" I was unaware of this Rule, which I just reviewed. It doesn?t make sense to me to bar a reaching strut, but it sure looks like you are correct. From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 4:16 PM I had taken it from the RRS 50.3 that a reaching strut in not allowed in a race. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement
I had taken it from the RRS 50.3 that a reaching strut in not allowed in a race. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:53:44 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" Yes, the inboard end attaches to a fitting (usually a ring) on the mast. There should be a fitting on each side, as you noted. The guy runs through the outboard end of the strut. The purpose is to improve the sheeting angle on a pole as it is let forward. (By the time the pole is near the headstay, the guy is pulling almost straight back.) An added benefit is that it prevents unwanted stress on the stanchions due to the guy pushing inward. Given the large loads on my boat, it comes in very handy. If I didn?t race the boat from time to time, it would probably stay in the storage locker. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Shackle for Genoa Sheets?
That was a poor wording on my part. We have released under load a few times due to overrides or whatever else happens on long races when we get tired. Once in the dark I managed to pull the jib sheet and spin sheet through the turning block. For headsail changes we put a temporary line on a sail, hoist the new sail and move the sheet to it then trim in. The old sail may get released under load. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: dwight veinot Open under load...what hapens to the clew. We do lots of headsail changes on yhe go the old way i guess never released the clew under load. Can?t imagine how that wotks out good still learning i guess ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Shackle for Genoa Sheets?
I was surprised at the loads, and have no idea why there is a difference to the various load calculators and postings. Windburn has ARCO 40s as the primary winches. They are similar to the new offerings with a 6.3:1 second gear ratio and a 3.25" drum diameter. http://www.arco-winches.com/products/winch/stdi With a 10" winch handle the power ratio would be 10 x 6.3 / 1.625 = 38.8 Am I correct in extrapolating that with 50 lbs force on the handle there would be about 2000 lbs force on the line? At high winds and full load my best guess is I am developing over 100 lbs of force on the winch handle, hence my guess at 4000 lbs. My headsail is in the 300 sq ft range and even at 15 knots the load on the winch handle is well over 20 lbs. I don't know what the discrepancies are. I originally used calculators to come up with a load rating and spec'd the rigging to match. We wore out the turning block in the first year. The 3/8" standard doublebraid sheet failed at the clew, though we were pounding into high wind and waves for hours. I upgraded to New England VPC 3/8, good for 6000 lbs, and broke the core where it turns on the genoa lead car. >From the Harken site a 300 sq ft sail at 8 knots would have a 83 pound load. I have no problem pulling 83 pounds and there is no way I can fully pull in my #1 by hand at 8 knots. If I really got my back into it and pulled as hard as I could I might get well over 200 pounds, good for 13 knots on the Harken site. There is no possibility of me trimming the jib by hand at 13 knots. Am I getting something wrong? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Dennis C." 300 sq. ft of headsail at 20 knots true is about 520 pounds load. https://www.harken.com/content.aspx?id=9096 Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:08 PM bwhitmore via CnC-List wrote: > 4000 lbs of load on a 30 ft. C&C? On what do you base this? > > Sorry if I seem incredulous... > Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 22:46:23 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" That didn?t sound right to me, either. From: bwhitmore via CnC-List Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 8:07 PM 4000 lbs of load on a 30 ft. C&C? On what do you base this? Sorry if I seem incredulous... ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Shackle for Genoa Sheets?
I am using the Tylaska #8 J-Locks with a core dependent eye splice. The sheets gets loaded over 4000 pounds but I have not had an issue. The lock will open under load and we have done sail changes in high winds without having to tack or de-power. They may have more appeal for racing where a bowline weakens the load value of the line and sail changes in inclimate weather always seems to be part of the fun. Not for everyone but they do work. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Winch grease
I have wondered if yearly maintenance was normal. In 2017 Windburn covered over 2,000 nm, almost all racing. We keep the heavy #1 up to at least 18 knots, sometimes with gusts to 22+. Overall there is a lot of use of the winches. When under heavy load the winches are easier to use with yearly maintenance. Not much different under lighter winds. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 13:04:28 -0400 From: dwight veinot You guys seem to have lube problems with you winches that i have not experienced. My winches have been cleaned and lubed only once in 15 years and they work and sound just fine. Last time about 5 years ago I used Harken white winch grease and Harken winch pawl oil. Still worin smooth and sounding good. Maybe i am just lucky all Barient winches ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Winch grease
A calcium based greases are among the more water resistant offerings. At low speed and medium pressure calcium sulphonate is a good choice. I contacted Shell and one of their product specialists called me back. After a discussion of the properties of marine winches she recommended looking at the Shell SRS 2000 line ( now renamed Gadus I think ). I got the Extreme version which is calcium suphonate based, $12 for a standard sized grease gun tube. I would expect it to be a lifetime supply. After two years the grease is holding up better than anything I have previously tried, which includes the Lewmar/Harken greases. Previously I would rebuild the primary winches every year and have a mid season tear down to check and maybe add some grease. I took the winches apart after a season and it looked good, better than they usually would look mid season. There is information on the web if you are interested. Note it is a specific version. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 01:45:13 + (UTC) From: Chris Graham To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Winch grease Message-ID: <63525769.358141.1541295913...@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I?m performing maintenance on my Barient 18 winches and was wondering if there was a preferred machine oil and grease? The Lewmar grease seems expensive and I?d have to order it.? Chris? ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Sail Plan and Heavy Weather
I did a race in 25 - 32 knots TWS, gusts to 47. Highest I saw this year was for about 90 seconds or so in a squall, readings to 52 knots steady. It increased, guessing over 55, but I couldn't read the instruments anymore. During the peak the boat was shuddering very noticeably. Toughest part is getting a clean tack. The boat loses too much speed coming up into the wind and then wants to fall off too far. A bad tack will lose a lot of ground. North designed for me a #3 of around 90% to use in 22 - 28 TWS. They got the design dialed in. With a reefed main the helm is balanced. I can come up a bit to depower in the gusts, or trim down for speed. I have a heavy #2, a couple of #3 that came used or with the boat. None of the combinations work well despite one of the other #3 being about the same size. Previous to getting the North #3 we would retire from a race at 30+ knots. I didn't feel safe handling the boat and we did not sail well. Now all the excitement is docking ... Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:30:07 -0300 From: dwight veinot I hope you guys are all talking apparent wind strength ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Filling diesel tank Urban myths?
The volume in the fuel tank is fairly small, most of our boats it would be less than 0.1 cubic meter. At around 90 degrees Fahrenheit that would be about 1/10 of an ounce of water in the air in an empty tank. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm If the temperature starts around 60F and drops to 20F about 0.03 ounces of water would condense in a 0.1 cubic meter tank. Air changes volume about 3% for a 40F temperature swing, so per month another 0.03 ounces of water might get in. Note that the numbers assume the maximum amount of water in the air, or 100% relative humidity. If the winter relative humidity is 50% then cut the numbers above in half. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 10:37:21 + From: "Della Barba, Joe" Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Filling diesel tank Urban myths? In Maryland we have high humidity and large temperature changes during the winter. I had to rebuild the wood supports for my fuel tank because so much water would condense on it the wood rotted! The aluminum tank is frequently covered with drops of water on the outside during the winter. Joe Coquina Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 5:34 PM Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Filling diesel tank Urban myths? I?m not in total disagreement, but the urban myth may be more of a Great White North myth. In that, when it gets cold out it stays cold until spring. But otherwise, when it get cold at night and warms up in the day, it best to keep the tank either full or empty. The reason is that a metal tank with some liquid will dehumidify the air inside (and outside) the tank during the daytime when ambient air starts to warm relative to the night time lows. Think about a tank half full after a cold night. The cold fuel is a big heat sink and will keep the tank fuel and metal container much colder than the warming daytime air. Warming air + cold metal surface = condensation, i.e. cold sweat. A full tank has less condensing surface and less air inside. An empty Aluminum tank will warm and cool with ambient air so there will be little if any condensation. I guess one could close up the tank (i.e. close of breather line) to try to eliminate the reoccurring condensation, but that?s likely not as easy as it sounds (and end up being a bigger PITA than filling the tank). With any luck, Global Warming will rid the Canadians of some urban myths?. - Paul E. 1981 C&C Landfall 38 S/V Johanna Rose Fort Walton Beach, FL ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Tree Trimming
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 10:44:23 -0600 From: Randy Stafford Subject: Re: Stus-List Tree Trimming Thank you all for your replies and suggestions, some of which were off-list. Responding to points in the order received: 1. "Is it safe to sate that the main mast damage is from the screws ripping out of the mast itself?? The main mast damage IMO is the indentation from the aft edge of the spreader bracket plate. The screw holes are also damaged, but fixable. Hi Randy, did the spreader brackets have a large bolt going through them and across inside the mast? I believe mine does and assumed it was handling most of the load. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Stay Tension Number Value
Loos PT-2 and 1/4" wire? Just a starting point put uppers at 36 and lowers at 32 on the gauge. If you get out on a windy day with normal sail plan point up to where you are comfortable and check how much tension is left in the lee shrouds. They should still be snug but will flex with some pressure. If they are still rock hard you can ease the shrouds, if they are flopping you need to tighten them. Note that a soft keel step or flexing deck affect shroud tension under load. The theory is that you want to keep the mast vertical. If the lee shrouds are flopping it means the mast has leaned over a bit, may be placing a load at the deck partner or at the step. If possible site up the mast when under load. It should be straight, ie no bending side to side. If the middle is bent to the lee tighten the lowers a bit, if the head is falling off tighten the uppers. Despite cruising there is a benefit in getting the tension correct. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:35:10 -0400 From: T Smyth I?m pretty sure I saw these at some point but cannot locate them again in the archives: I am looking for the recommended number value for (cruising) stay tensions for a C&C 30 MKI (1974). There is widespread, ample discussion of tuning stays on the Internet. I am interested now in specific recommended tensions for a C&C 30 MKI. Thanks in advance for your recommendations! Tom Augusta (GA) Sailing Club ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Galvanic corrosion
I was mainly answering Mike but adding to your question also. I am not clear on what is being measured, assumed something to ship's ground. I have not understood the need to ground an otherwise electrically isolated bronze through hull or seacock though I think at one point it was recommended. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 18:07:44 + From: "Della Barba, Joe" I am still not clear on how the voltage is being measured and between what points. I have bronze thru-hulls that are not wired to anything. If I measured between them and the lead keel or the engine with the stainless shaft, I am sure I would read a voltage, they are dissimilar metals in salt water. Absent me wiring up the voltmeter, the thru-hulls have no connection to anything else and would not corrode. If you do have all these thru-hulls wired to ground, as is done on some boats, you now have a battery. You need to be sure there is a zinc involved in there somewhere and it had better have a good connection so that the zinc is the part of the battery corroding. IMHO and also the article referenced in another post, I like to make sure my seacocks and thru-hulls are NOT grounded. This eliminates the issue of poor contact to zincs and prevents the boat wiring from being a path for leakage between boats on one side of you and boats on the other, which is something a zinc will have a hard time saving you from. Joe Coquina ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Galvanic corrosion (Della Barba, Joe)
You could try reading current with your multimeter instead of voltage. Small stray voltages likely exist when measuring between lead and SS even in fresh water but I doubt they will sustain much current. Just as an example of magnitude very roughly if there was a current of 1 amp continuously in normal soil it would corrode about 20 lbs of steel in a year. If you are reading less than 0.5 milliamp I would say those two surfaces are not going to have much corrosion between them. If you are seeing over a milliamp then there is an issue. The circuit requires two paths, the dissimilar metals in water and then something on the boat connecting them together. Some advice has been to connect the mast, standing rigging and keel together but do not ground them to the boats electrical system. That may be difficult if items like the VHF antenna is mounted to a metal bracket on the mast. You can test for this by measuring the resistance between the mast and ship's ground. Anything under 10 ohms would indicate a connection. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:41:43 + From: "Della Barba, Joe" Voltage readings between what and what? Joe Della Barba Coquina Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 7:25 PM Hi Alan The readings I posted are at anchor in the Thousand Island area. I almost never plug in during the cruising season. I only use shore power to charge the batteries during winter layup when the solar and wind are removed, every 6 to 8 weeks So today I did more testing. I disconnected the positive cable for the start battery and I still saw 0.02V at the prop shaft. So I ruled out that as an issue. I disconnected the battery charger and still saw voltage. Next I took the wind generator out of the equation and the results were the same. Next I disconnected the windlass, same results. Next I moved inside and checked for voltage on the tube for the centre board pendant. Saw 0.25 V. I removed the positive cable to the house electrical panel. Still saw voltage. Am I doing this right. My memory tells me that the way I?m testing might be creating some kind of battery but my memory might be tricking me. Could really use some help from any electricians or corrosions specialist out there. Mike C&C 37 K/CB Shoal draft Persuasion Stormont Yacht Club ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Gas consumption C&C34 with Atomic 4
At 4 - 5 knots into wind and waves a consumption of 1.8 CND gallons per hour is possible. Very roughly a 4 stroke gas engine running efficiently will yield about 15 HP at 1 gallon CND per hour. Subtract losses for the alternator and water pumps and 1.8 might give you 20 - 24 HP at the prop. One thing to check is the timing which seems to have an effect on the A4 under load. Pick a flat windless day, come up to a reasonable speed and measure it by GPS. The best is to adjust the distributor while running for highest speed, may not be possible or safe. A guess is that some of the distributors may not be advancing well. There are some weights and springs inside that should be advancing the timing as the engine revs up but the few that I have looked at for people either didn't move at all or had a significantly reduced range. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: jay hackney Hello colleagues Filled with gas for the Atomic 4 in Port Whitby Canada Day and sailed back to Toronto. Wind out of the West and tight timeline meant we had to motor against the wind and waves for 2.5 hr. That would be relatively ?hard? motoring at 4-5 knots. Since then I?ve motored about another 3/4hr for a total of 3.25 hours, again at about 4.5 knots. Filled with gas again the other day to measure gas consumption and got 7.9 litres per hour, or 1.8 gal per hour. I?ve got a 2-blade folding prop (which, by the way, make reversing difficult - in the sense that there is no quick stopping). Does that seem normal? Online research seems to go from 0.5 to 2-3 gal per hour. Anyone with an A4 on a C&C34 with a gas consumption comparison out there? thanks Jay Hackney Windblown Toronto ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Weird - Marine Vendor Websites Down
I have this in from an American customer who is having similar problems. > Comcast is in the middle of a major outage in many parts of the country, > especially the Northeast. > If you have clients with problems, best to see if Comcast is involved. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford This morning I?m trying to look into ramshorn reefing hooks for Grenadine, and all of defender.com <http://defender.com/>, rigrite.com <http://rigrite.com/>, and westmarine.com <http://westmarine.com/> websites are unresponsive. Only jamestowndistributors.com <http://jamestowndistributors.com/> is responsive. What the heck? Cheers, Randy ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List marine insurance
Last Wednesday a storm blew through Ontario also. I was not sure if RC would start a race but a few boats showed up so the set a 1.8 mile leg once around. I knew the wind was up, sustained over 20 kts so went out with a 90% blade and full main. After a couple of gusts we reefed the main. It hit 42 kts upwind but balance was OK. Boat windage is pretty high and even with only 3 miles fetch the waves were surprisingly hard so we angled off a bit to not pound so much. We average around 5.4 kts upwind ( not VMG ) which surprised me. Tacking was an art, needed to bow down slightly to get 6 knots before coming up. Downwind was harder, had to run wider angles to depower the main. I think if it was possible to drop it we would have and run the jib only. Top speed when a square wave caught us and pushed was 10.9 kts, think that was the fastest I have seen Windburn go. We corrected over the bigger boats that had a much faster downwind, including a Bene 36.7, J/105 and J/35. The only boat that is similar to us is a C&C 3/4 ton ( race version of the 33 ) which we beat by over an hour level. Two waves, or maybe spray, got lifted so much they blew over the boat without soaking us. I have no idea what the winds got to because during the 42+ knot gust the end of the MHU blew off. When the wind lifts the spray off the waves it is usually above 45 knots as a guess. For most boats docking was just as exciting. http://www.thenyc.com/display-race/NWIyOTQwMTk2YWZjZjkuNTY5NTQ5MjA0NDc,/ Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 10:49:18 -0600 From: Randy Stafford +1. Changed to Progressive from BoatUS this year because BoatUS prices kept going up and their coverages kept going down. On the survey question, I remember doing a ?self survey? for BoatUS, and also sending them the professional pre-purchase survey I had done on my boat. For Progressive, I also sent the pre-purchase survey. I haven?t had the boat for five years yet, so I don?t know if I?ll get pestered. My yacht club requires proof of insurance for racing, but I don?t think my marina does for slippage. Incidentally, last Wednesday night I had the wildest race on Grenadine since buying her. Wind jumped from 10mph to 35mph in the snap of a finger, a few minutes after the start. Outflow from a big storm cell to the southeast, I think. I had my drifter (150% lightweight genoa) and full main up for the 10mph conditions. We could see the puff on the water but couldn?t tell how strong it was until we got in it - we were one of the first boats to get in it. Rounded up hard four times, buried the side deck to the cabintop window, and tore the clew cringle out of the drifter before I could even think to change headsails. Managed to maintain position in the race under main alone while we switched to the 130. Then had an accidental gybe and the boom knocked a crewman into the cabin (lesson: don?t sail wing and wing in that strong of wind). Still finished second despite the chaos. Sail is already fixed, crewman has recovered. No lasting damage, some lessons learned, and the 30-1 prov e d her stiffness again. Cheers, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List C&C Rescue Committee finds
Listed as a C&C 30 but it is a 29. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 21:38:13 + From: "Della Barba, Joe" https://easternshore.craigslist.org/boa/d/1979-cc-30/6589132460.html 1979 C&C 30 - $1500 (Cape Charles, VA) hide this posting unhide ? craigslist - Map data ? OpenStreetMap Marina Road condition: fair length overall (LOA): 29 make / manufacturer: C and C model name / number: C and C propulsion type: sail year manufactured: 1979 QR Code Link to This Post Very nice fin keel spade rudder Chesapeake Bay cruising boat. Sturdy and nice sailing boat. Project boat as she was neglected a while ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine Autopilot gone mad!
Long short. If the head has the controller in it, such as a ST4000, ST4000+, ST6000 ... when it starts acting up place a cloth over it and soak it in ice water for a minute or so. If the unit starts working normally you likely have a component overheating. I have fixed two by noticing where the circuit board was discolored and replacing the component. One was the three pin voltage regulator and the other was the wire out to the wheel drive. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Tom Buscaglia Well, yesterday, as we left our overnight anchorage, I did a full reset of the autopilot. Followed by the linearization that only showed a 3 degree deviation. This indicates there are no issues with the compass being influenced by and ferrous interference. A few of the rudder setting were way off and I was hoping that would resolve any issues. One thing I did notice is that the pilot was not receiving the GPS info from my e7 MFD. Once everything was done we set out. Things seemed ok for a while. The excessive course hunting stopped and she was holding course fine. No circuit breaker issues either. Then she just started to wander to port... Restart would settle things down, but in a few minutes she would go off on me again. it just deteriorated from there so we went manual from there. When I installed the MFD myself a few years ago I used the appropriate Gtalk ti Gtalk ng converter and all of the G60 instruments show up on the MFD. but I didn?t go at all into the interface. At this point I suspect there is a software version mismatch. I found the update .iso that will load the update for the pilot onto it via the MFD. I?ll need to get home to download it and see if the helps. The below deck conversion looks like something I may consider either doing myself or using my checkbook. But I better get the Pilot?s brain working right first... Tom Buscaglia S/V Alera 1990 C&C 37+/40 Vashon WA P 206.463.9200 C 305.409.3660 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Parallel Batteries
If you are looking to replace your batteries these may be of interest. http://fireflyenergy.com/ I looked at them a few years ago and would have gone that way except I found a deal on Johnson Controls AGM group 31s, $160 CND instead of $400. The technology is not a gimmick, the research was done by Caterpillar to find a better product for their needs. Possible weeks of non-use, high cranking amps particularly in cold weather and the ability to recover from a deep discharge. The pricing is in line with Rolls or Lifeline AGM offerings. https://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/ https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Can-Carbon-Foam-Batteries-Meet-Hype-11694-1.html There are quite a few positive reviews and installation blogs on the internet. I have not seen anything negative or reporting a fault but the technology has only been in common use for about 10 years. https://www.panbo.com/gizmos-new-firefly-battery-bank-working-out-the-details/ Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Blue Sea Add A Battery Kit
If this is the switch you have: https://www.bluesea.com/products/5511e/e-Series_Dual_Circuit_Plus_Battery_Switch then Off - should disconnect both battery ( banks ) ie no starter to engine and no house to boat On - should connect starter to engine, house to boat but keep the separate Combine - should combine the starter and house battery and connect them both to the engine and boat > It should only turn off the starter battery. No, the documentation clearly states "Simultaneously switches two isolated battery banks". It is strange to have a defective switch and an installer that thinks it suppose to work that way. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 10:40:49 -0600 (MDT) From: DON JONSSON Hello Last year when we installed a new engine we had the local mechanic do two things. Align the engine and do the wiring. This is question about the wiring for people who have the same Blue Sea kit. To manage the batteries we are using the Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus 5511e switch and the 7610 ACR. Although we already had the ACR these two combined are what Blue Sea call the Add A Battery Kit. Both of these are connected correctly but the behaviour seems wrong to us. When we set the 5511e to 'Off" it turns only one of the batteries off. In our case it leaves the house battery connected through the switch and disconnects the starter battery. Using and ohm meter with the batteries disconnected we have found that in the 'Off' position only one side of the switch is closed and the other open. So it is the switch doing this, not some bad wiring going to the house. This seems like a faulty switch to us. Here is the catch. We contacted the company that sold us the switch and installed it, Gartside, and they said that is the way it is supposed to work. It should only turn off the starter battery. I have looked at all the Blue Sea material and this seems wrong to me, according to the literature, but it never specifically says what is done in the 'off' position, but it certainly seems to imply that both sides should be turned on and off simultaneously. It also has a combined mode, but that is a separate thing. Does anyone else have this setup and how does yours work. Thanks Don Andante, C&C 34 Victoria, BC ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Marine Batteries
In Canada you could check Total Battery. I see a Trojan deep cycle Group 31 listed for $282.80 http://webstore.totalbattery.com/product-p/31xhs.htm The claimed 130 amp hours is good as is the reserve capacity at 225 minutes. Many Group 31s are around 100 and 190. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List C&C 30 Mast weight
The standing rigging weighs under 100 lbs, would guess the mast is 200 lbs. I normally disconnect the forestay, coil it and store it on board for the winter to protect the Harken Carbo Foil. I can pick up and carry the mast myself, no problem placing it on a rack up to shoulder height. To switch from saw horses to a mast dolly I place the dolly beside the mast in the middle, left one end of the mast and pivot the mast on the far sawhorse. If I end up on a higher spot on the mast racks I pick up one end and put it on the rack, then go to the other end and lift the mast up. Based on that I have to think it is under 250 pounds. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford Hi Gerald, I don?t have an exact weight for the mast on my 30 MK I, but I would guesstimate it?s in the range of 200-250 pounds. Two guys can lift it but it?s a struggle, and they can?t hold it for long or move it very much. Four or five guys can carry it more easily. Cheers, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO > On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:28 AM, gerald field via CnC-List > wrote: > > Does anyone have a idea of the approximate weight of the mast on a C&C 30. I > am going to buy a chain hoist that i will mount on a frame for moving my mast > from its winter stands onto a mast dolly at the club and i want to make sure > i get a appropriately sized one. > Gerald Field > C&C 30 Vagabond > Midland Bay Sailing Club ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
True, though note that very little play at the radial wheel keyway is required. If your rudder swings 80 degrees and that takes 3 turns lock to lock ( no idea, just an example ), then 1 degree on the rudder is 13.5 degrees on the wheel. If your rudder post is 2.5" diameter then 1 degree is less than 1/32" of play. Other than taking everything apart on Windburn I have only looked at two other drives systems. Both had been damaged and had some play in them. On one it was a similar observation, the center mark on the wheel was no longer straight ahead. My guess is while in full reverse the wheel was let go and slammed over against the stop hard enough to shift the radial on the shaft. The key was brass or bronze and was damaged. On the other one the keyways were not the same size, maybe out by 0.02" or so. It is not always easy to get in and make good measurements. That allowed the radial to move, polished the fit a bit and the drive system slipped down enough to cause alignment problems. I take it from your advise that everything was engineered to be a very tight or interference fit. The ones I looked at were not but I couldn't tell by hand. Still, 20 degrees is a lot. I did take the plate and idlers off of Windburn, had them sandblasted and coated them with POR-15. Came up as hard as rock and looks to be a good solution for rusting steel. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Chuck Gilchrest" Michael, A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with no explanation. I suspect Bruce?s boat has a 44? diameter wheel which means at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk?s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ?? to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized by .003? for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won?t slip on the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat handling suffers when this happens.. Chuck Gilchrest Half Magic 1983 Landfall 35 Padanaram, MA ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List C&C 30 Mast Step
I had though "Live Oak" was a generic term for how some Oaks grew rather than a specific species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak Either way despite the lack of knowing the correct description the right Oak is very good for marine use. Sad but years ago near me in Barrie Ontario we had what was reported to be one of the larger stands of White Oak in Canada. A developer needed to beat a pending municipal law concerning cutting of mature trees so early one morning a team of loggers came in and clear cut the whole property. I tried to get some of the wood knowing its properties. The crew laughed and said I didn't want it, they could barely cut it even with sharp chains. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 13:38:23 -0500 From: Bill Bina - gmail To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C 30 Mast Step Message-ID: <03803e6a-8ee7-4d53-845a-d02dc3e63...@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Old ships used Live Oak, which is a very different wood than White Oak. Bill Bina ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List C&C 30 Mast Step
Good white oak is considered to be relatively resistant to water penetration, used for canoes and old sailing ships. https://www.wagnermeters.com/aboutamericanwhiteoakandredoak/ Working it, bending it and staining it ( or getting epoxy into it ) has usually been the top complaints. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Ronald B. Frerker" On my 30, I used oak the first time. ?I sealed the ends and faces with epoxy, but apparently didn't do a good enough job as it sucked up water. ?Now oak bends very nicely when wet, especially if hot. ?Needless to say, within a few years I had to replace because the mast was getting too low for the shrouds.I used an oily mexican wood called paela (sp?). ?They use it for fence posts and it's good for a hundred years. ?Very dense, like ironwood.I had only two supports and both rested on the shoulder of the bilge so water could flow under. ?I added a third support and did the same.All seems to be working.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List C&C 30 Mast Step
I used epoxy coated white oak. The particular pieces were hard enough that metal working blades and a file provided the best method for shaping them. My feeling is that the original bilge pump configuration did not get the last 2" of water out of the mast step area so the plywood was wet 7x24 for 30+ years. It also likely went through numerous freeze/thaw cycles every winter. I may have had the same setup, a Whale Guzzler in the cockpit sole and a long hose running down under the mast step. The PO installed a centrifugal style pump just astern of the mast which improved things a bit but it also could not pump the last 1" out and the water in the out line would flow back. I installed a Whale Gulper 320 with a remote pickup and electronic sensor. The pickup foot has a valve in it and the sensor runs for about 45 seconds longer after the low point for shutoff is detected. There is now very little water in the bilge. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 03:49:30 + (UTC) From: Collin Ferguson My mast step stringers were in very bad shape and the mast plate was dropping into the bilge so I'm replacing the step this winter. I have a few questions... 1). Terminology wise, are the lateral plywood supports considered the mast step or stringers? ?Or is the heavy cast iron plate that sits on top of them called the mast step? 2). I've read the very helpful documents about others who have taken on this task. ?They have used GPO-3 or other non wood materials. ?I would like to use epoxy coated hardwood because I'm much more comfortable shaping the wood to fit in. ?If it lasts 20 years I'll be more that happy. ?The original plywood lasted 40 so I would think it should. ?My question is, what type of wood? ?I was thinking White oak or Mahogany. 3). How important is it that the 3 new pieces go all the way to the keel? ?Of the 3 current supports only the forward most support went all the way to the base of the bilge, the other two had enough space between them and the bottom of the bilge to pass a large diameter bilge hose through. ?I'm not sure if that was original or if one of the PO's modified them to run the hose. ?There were many failed repairs to the original structure. 4). I'm thinking about putting an automatic bilge pump in between the pieces under the mast. ?The current setup only had a hose running in there to a manual whale pump. ?Is it a good idea to put a small automatic pump in there? ? Thanks, Collin1974 C&C 30 MK1LibraBaltimore ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Removing companionway slider plexiglass, C&C 37/40+
I had thought that polycarbonate was "more likely to scratch" compared to acrylic ( plexiglass ), and that polycarbonate yellowed over time due to UV exposure. http://www.hydrosight.com/acrylic-vs-polycarbonate-a-quantitative-and-qualitative-comparison/ Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 14:36:12 -0500 From: Brian Donovan Hi Bruce I replaced my fixed ports this past spring and I used 3/8" polycarbonate. It is stronger and more scratch resistant than plexiglass. I purchased it from Curbell plastics Rochester NY Cheers Brian Brian Donovan 112 Frisbee Hill Rd Hilton NY 14468 (585) 313-1940 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Gotta Love These Hurricanes
Winds have been up this year. I went for the last sail of the season then un-stepped the mast yesterday. At 5 AM Sunday the Toronto Island Airport which is across the Western Gap from the National Yacht Club recorded a 47 mph gust, 32 mph winds. The forecast was for the wind to ease in the afternoon to under 10 knots east, we enjoyed upwards to 20 knots south. Nice sailing in short sleeves on October 8th. A couple of weeks back on September 27th we had the last race of the fall series with a storm line crossing the province. Winds were consistently into the 20s though we wondered if there would be a significant gust. The storm continued east towards Ottawa and the Britannia Yacht Club where a downburst hit them with a 100 mph gust and 87 mph for over a minute. Hopefully not the new norm. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Dennis C." oge82d08k2ap...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Touche' also escaped unscathed. Dock neighbor emailed me all is well. Was worried one of the "derelict" liveaboard boats anchored astern of me would break loose. Wind would have carried it towards Touche's pier. Saw 40 mph steady and gusts to 53 mph at Pensacola Naval Air Station. Water level rose less than 3 feet. All in all, Nate wasn't overly destructive. Some localized damage on the Mississippi Coast but could have been worse. Let's hope we're done for the year. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again. October will be our fund raising month. Please consider sending a small contribution to help keep this list running. Use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak
Good enough for me, will give it a try in the spring. Windburn is pretty dry, not much gets in from rain or spray. A very little gets in on the port side midship with the rail buried for a while, wipes up with a cloth. I shouldn't be bothered but so close to being completely dry ... Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 19:14:28 -0500 From: "Dennis C." All I know is that I, and others, have seen leaks decrease or stop after applying Captain Tolley's to the inboard edge of the toe rail. It may just be that the stuff is so watery that it finds it's way under the rail, possibly sneaks around the fasteners and works its magic. Whether it finds its way to the rub rail I can't say. :) Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again. October will be our fund raising month. Please consider sending a small contribution to help keep this list running. Use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak
I had assumed any water intrusion getting in would between the deck and vinyl rub strip where there should be some butyl, or the rub strip and the hull where again there should be butyl. http://southshoreyachts.com/shop/cc-old-style-rub-rail-40/ Is the Tolly creeping down to those areas? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 16:53:16 -0500 From: "Dennis C." To: CnClist Subject: Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Not the way I use it. I just use it to stop water intrusion between the toe rail and deck. It may work on the bolts but I've never tried it. Dennis C. On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:47 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Is this to stop water entry from following the through bolts ( machine > screws ) into the cabin? > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 ___ The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again. October will be our fund raising month. Please consider sending a small contribution to help keep this list running. Use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak
Is this to stop water entry from following the through bolts ( machine screws ) into the cabin? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:36:56 -0500 From: "Dennis C." Yep. Just place the tip of the bottle in the rail/deck interface, squeeze very gently and go. Watch it get sucked into the crack. Again, don't squeeze too hard or it will flow out on the deck. You'll get the technique down in under a minute. First time, put 5-6 applications about 30-60 minutes apart. Next year you might only do 2-3 applications. I'm down to 1 per year or every other year. It's an aqueous acrylic polymer dispersion. I'm guessing it's a close cousin to the polymers one finds in some grouts and sealants. Once it dries, it's probably stays flexible. Hence it's good application for toe rails. When I looked up the MSDS, I see it's a product of a company called New Pig. We used to buy a lot of their stuff for spill containment/clean up when I was a regulatory manager. Good company. They sell oil absorbent pads and "elephant tampons". https://www.newpig.com/pig-blue-absorbent-sock/p/4048 Probably too much info for the list but I thought it was interesting. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again. October will be our fund raising month. Please consider sending a small contribution to help keep this list running. Use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List where to begin.
Do whichever is easier: 1) switch the batteries ( house and starting ) 2) switch the battery cables, ie house positive and ground to the starting, starting positive and ground to house If the selection of starting battery ( which is now the house battery ) starts the engine easily then the starting battery needs to be checked. If the selection of starting battery ( which is now the house battery ) does not start the engine and the connection is seven volts then the wiring needs to be checked. If both selections start the engine now you may have had a battery connection problem. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Bev Parslow The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn over but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five volts. For a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? Please use simple terms as I did not do well in science. ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out
If you have the mechanical style fuel pump you may be able to use it for troubleshooting. The pump has a mechanical primer in the form of a wire bail that goes around outside of the body. Part way down here is a picture of the pump: https://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410 There is a bail that holds the fuel cup on, and a second smaller one you can see in the left picture around the lower part of the pump. If there is fuel available then after levering it out a couple of times it will fill the carburetor and tend to stay out. If you can prime the pump a dozen times then either there is no fuel, there is a problem with the lines or maybe the carb is getting flooded. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford Update on this - went down to the boat today, pulled plugs, changed oil. No sign whatsoever of water in the engine. Then on testing, she started right up, ran smoothly at idle for several minutes, then shut down suddenly. And wouldn?t restart after a few short cranking attempts (with raw water intake closed). From that I was relieved that the starter and solenoid and starter circuit were working, and the ignition circuits. Per Occam?s Razor I removed and inspected the fuel petcock, as it?s been troublesome this year (it became increasingly difficult to turn, then suddenly easier to turn, hmmm?). I believe it to be the culprit. It was stuck in what appeared to be a closed position, and turning its handle didn?t change that. I suspect it may have been just open enough to allow the fuel line to fill, given enough time. But once the engine consumed the fuel in the line, it wasn?t open enough to keep supplying the engine. I bought a new fuel shut-off valve from West Marine and will install it tomorrow and report back. As for my starter not working Sunday when I pushed the button, I?ll let that remain a mystery unless it happens again. Maybe I didn?t have the ignition switch pulled out far enough when I pressed the button. Cheers, Randy ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out
When I replaced the ignition switch, a simple pull on push off, I changed it to a three position switch. I don't think this is exactly it but close: M-476-BX https://www.carltonbates.com/static/catalog/products/images/PDF/M-476-BX.pdf On the first detent out I use #1 for the ignition.. The second detent ( further out ) still has #1 powered for the ignition and I used #2 for the gauge lights. I normally do not light the gauges during the day, and may want darkness at some point at night. I think the switch I used moves the contact material between the first and second position so sort of like a backup switch. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Bruce Whitmore Good point, Michael.? There is a significant difference that I failed to mention between the in/out ignition switch and the push button, and in retrospect it may have been the push/pull that I replaced - It's been a lot of years, and I just replaced a different type of silver pushbutton switch on my 37/40+.? Good insights from all, ?Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out
Hi Randy, a common wiring configuration has a positive wire coming from the starter stud to the ignition switch in. The ignition switch out feeds the ignition coil, starter button and gauges. If you pull the ignition switch on it should move the fuel gauge, ignition off might return the gauge to empty. If so that will confirm power is getting to and through the ignition switch. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:15:08 -0600 From: Randy Stafford To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out Message-ID: <8f1bd72a-bd6e-4e04-b0a3-4e09edff3...@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Doug, No noise whatsoever when I pushed the starter button. It was as if there wasn?t enough current to activate the starter, but the batteries *did* have enough charge at the time. Cheers, Randy ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Looseness in tiller on C&C30 MK1
On my '77 30 MK1 the rudder post goes through a fiberglass tube that is a close fit, would not allow much sideways movement. Wear between the shaft and tiller is more likely. If the bolts are easy to remove and are not retaining the shaft then take them out and see how easily the tiller comes off. You can send the pictures to me directly and I will take a look. I did remove the pedestal, turning plate, rudder and fittings from Windburn for checking and maintenance a few years ago. Time consuming but there is reasonable access and everything comes apart and goes together without any complicated procedures. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 12:09:41 + From: Cleverboy Looking for some guidance on a problem with my newly acquired 73 C&C30 . I Have play in the tiller and I'm trying to determine if the play is the result of "egging" around the through bolt or the piece that I think is called the rudder head. The rudder head is attached to the rudder shaft by 2 bolts. It appears that over the 44 years of sailing some material may have worn away allowing the tiller to have the sloppiness. I tried attaching 2 photos but it put me wildly over the size permitted for emails. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Charles Ferrari Bronx, NY C&C 30 MK1 Destrier ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1980 Water Systems Questions
Must have had great quality control to replicate the same failure ;-) I have been on a few 30-1, no two the same so far but all great boats. I was racing last Tuesday, had the rarely used blade up and a full main at 20 - 25 kts. A wind line took us to 36 kts, eased the main and jib off to sit at about 60º AWA. Sailed well, balanced helm and not even the rail in the water. When it eased back down to 30 we sheeted in a bit and finished the race. The scene behind us was not as relaxed. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Gary Nylander" By 1980, they went with separate tanks. Mine is just like Chad?s, complete with the leak. Gary 1980 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1980 Water Systems Questions
The tanks on my '77 C&C 30 are fiberglass and built with the hull as part of the tank. The top of the forward tank is also the base of the V-berth. There are removable round access ports and a screwed down access panel on both tanks. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 20:23:56 -0400 From: Chad Osmond I did repair the tanks on our '90 30-2 by drilling out the crack, flame treatment and GFlex. I repaired it last year and kept the tank full this year with no issues. Chad On Aug 28, 2017 8:21 PM, "Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > If you look back in the archives, there was discussions on water tanks > repair within the last 4 weeks. > > If you have a leak at the fitting, possibly, you may just need to replace > it. > > I had some surprisingly good results with a Bondic welding kit. > > And yes, most sinks drain directly overboard. > > Marek > > > *From: *Chris Hobson via CnC-List > *Sent: *Monday, August 28, 2017 20:07 > > Recently filled up the V birth water tank and discovered a slow leak. PO > left it empty and now I know why. This eventually drained everything into > my bilge, as the tank is now empty and the bilge is full. So that needs to > be fixed. Has anyone repaired a plastic water tank before, or do you > typically replace them? it looks like the leak comes from one of the > fittings fastened to the tank. > > Second question which I'm sure most of you could answer, does the sink in > the head generally drain into the holding tank or go overboard? from what I > can see the sink drains directly into a seacock fastened to the hull. > > Chris Hobson > s/v "Going" > 1980 C&C 30 MKI ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Electrical panel
Some are dual purpose switch / circuit breakers: https://www.bluesea.com/products/7351/C-Series_White_Toggle_Circuit_Breaker_-_Single_Pole_10_Amp That one is rated at 10,000 cycles as a switch. The MRSP is $40 USD, more expensive than a switch and fuse. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:05:59 -0700 From: svpegasus38 To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Subject: Re: Stus-List Electrical panel Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Paul,?Circuit breakers were not designed to be used as a switch, although we all do. Me included. This being used as a switch will cause them to fail over time. I believe you just had bad luck having 2 fail symotainiously. I like paneltronics stuff. because I have used it in the past, and they will custom build a panel for you.? Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy?POYC?Pegasus ?(for sale)?Lf38?Rebecca Leah?LF39? Original message From: Paul via CnC-List Date: 8/10/17 09:54 (GMT-08:00) To: 'Ron Ricci' , cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: paul.h...@rogers.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Electrical panel My 2 problem breakers were from the 12v DC side of the panel.? The AC is the left side and the DC is the right 2 sides. I have the main shut off switch for the panel otherwise, there is not backup breaker for the DC. Thanks, Paul Hood 416.799.5549 c ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Bilge Pump Wiring (Cont...)
If there has been a problem with AC leakage from other boats then completely disconnecting all grounds might help. No idea, just guessing. The battery charger would need to be connected directly to the battery(s), which looks like it is from the pictures. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:35:58 + (UTC) From: RANDY Scratching my head. Presumably the point of the second battery switch is to switch some circuit(s) open or closed. But to me it's weird. I'd generally expect the switching to be on the hot side of the circuits, and all grounding to be (unswitched) to the engine block and therefore the prop shaft. (Not that I'm all that experienced with boat electrical systems). Where does the black cable off the "common" stud of that second battery switch run to? Regarding the #1 battery, an easy test to isolate battery fault versus other faults would be to connect it to a known good charger (only). If it won't charge up or hold a charge, it's the battery. Cheers, Randy ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Refit for a 1981 Landfall 38
> Add pad-eye on bow platform for code zero sail If you are planning to carry a 155% genoa a racing code zero ( defined here as a flat spinnaker with the MidGirth < 75% of the Foot ) is an expensive sail that will add benefit over a fairly small AWA. A cruising code zero or reaching asymmetrical might be 50% of the cost of a racing code zero and be a better fit. > Add Code Zero sail on Facnor continuous line furling unit Nice units. It is difficult getting a big spinnaker down, code zero or reaching asymmetrical, if you are in a race. We normally douse when either the apparent goes too far forward or the TWS gets above what we can carry a spinnaker in, making the task a challenge double handing. If we head off wind to help shadow the spinnaker behind the genoa and main it takes us off course. Windburn spent the last three hours of the Lake Ontario 300 flying spinnaker at 60º AWA in 6 - 10 kts TWS. It was a blast, routinely doing 6.2 kts in 8.4 kts TWS. Everything needs to be up sized, the forces involved will break things. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: john wright Hello everyone I am about to begin a complete refit on what is the best boat for my purpose ( sailing around Cape Code as we get ready to do the Caribbean 1500 in 2019), after looking or sailing at least 100 boat over the past 4 years. The boat is in better than average condition, I will post pictures later. I have the work broken down into three categories, and would appreciate any recommendations and reorganizing of the list. Thanks Level 1: Repairs and Installations Replace old set of AGM batteries with new set Remove old engine, clean and repaint engine room, rebuild engine bed as needed to fit the new Yanmar 3JH5e Replace all hoses for new engine Move raw water sea strainer and Racor fuel filter to easier location to monitor visually Gelcoat ? fill all chips and nicks with gelcoat Clean stains with FSR Repair teak grating at pedestal (epoxy the connections to frame) Clean teak with teak cleaner Replace teak combing with thicker mahogany boards Clean and Polish all gelcoat surfaces Hull bottom ? sand and repaint with anti-fouling ablative paint Re-install mast and tune rigging Make line hanger in cockpit below deck winches functional once again Add gasket to aft access panel under helm seat Repair/ refinish wood framework to companionway Re-varnish companionway door Make better drainage in port cockpit locker and revarnish partition wood Install the new Whale Gusher manual pump in cockpit Update propane solenoid Remake companionway door cover to fit better Deck and House ? clean and re-varnish woodwork (handrails, dorade boxes) Clean and polish all stainless hardware Replace gasket material on all opening ports Repaint all dorade vents Replace traveler cam cleat Clean, sand and varnish bow platform Stanchion support on starboard bent ? take to shop and straighten Add maintenance coat of varnish on floors and re-secure Install and varnish framework for windows Repair and revarnish bulkheads where needed Re-install all cabinets and tables Finish installation of canvas cover for ceiling in forward berth Ice box cover ? install hardware and gasket Head ? re-cut new mirror and install Forward cabin has trim work that needs to be installed Brow in forward cabin to be replaced with new trim work Level 2: Updates and Improvements Hull repainting ? large project to be described as we get closer to that project Paint steering pedestal white Replace instruments Replace opening port in cockpit with new Add winch handle holders in cockpit Paint new non-skid in cockpit seats and floor Make set of cockpit cushions Install a cockpit shower Re-bed all deck gear, hardware and chainplates (last another 20 years) Replace all blocks with updated equipment Replace all running rigging Replace genoa sheet cars with moveable sheet lead under load Replace missing wood bungs on teak toe rail (may need to reset screws deeper as wood has shrunk over time) Sand toe rail and varnish Winches to be stripped cleaned and greased Paint interior of chain locker Make a grating for chain locker to help rode to dry Stanchion bases and cleats to be removed and powder coated to original color All deck non-skid to be renewed with white or Hatteras soft yellow (Tartan Yachts uses this style) Add stanchion rollers for headsail furling line to lead to cockpit Replace steering cables with new Replace all interior lighting with LED Install Isotherm hot water tank Replace interior cushions with new foam and fabrics Replace AC/DC switch panel with BluSea panel Add swim ladder Level 3: Enhancements Replace manual windlass with an electric version Upgrade chain and rope to fit new windlass Add pad-eye on bow platform for code zero sail Add Fischer Panda Perfect Power iSeries Generator Install reverse cycle heat and air conditioning system Add custom fi
Re: Stus-List C&C 30 boomvang issue
Hi Bill, I would lean towards SS rivets as suggested by Dennis and others. You will need to get the diameter of the hole but also the combined thickness of the fitting and mast. Fogh has a good assortment of the rivets. You can get the compound riveter from Princess Auto. On the LO300 with all the reaching not having a vang was likely a significant problem. Did you rig a temporary block or anything? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 yes - I was docked a couple of slips away from you at PCYC. > > *From: *"Dennis C. via CnC-List" > > I'm guessing they were aluminum rivets. "Every high load" rivet I > installed in a mast was stainless coated with TefGel. > > However, to install larger stainless rivets, you need a BIG rivet tool > like a Marson Big Daddy. They run about $150. > > If it were me, I'd punch out the old rivets and reinstall with > stainless. Is there a rental shop around where you can rent a Big Daddy? > > Dennis C. > Touche' 35-1 #83 > Mandeville, LA > > On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Bill Nickel via CnC-List > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: > > During my recent "race" in the Lake Ontario 300 (actually the > shorter scotch bonnet race) my hydraulic boom bang broke off at > the base of the mast. The rivets appear to have sheared off. > I have the local boat repair company taking a look, but t I am > curious if anyone has suggestions? > > Bill Nickel > > "adagio" > > 1977 C&C 30 mk 1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List synthetic oil
If it is the correct grade and has the minimum rating requirements there is no reason to replace it. Synthetic oil could also be described as better filtered / refined / processed regular oil and its only drawback in most applications is that it is expensive. In an application where the oil stays clean, no ring leakage or maybe a natural gas conversion, synthetic oils could last for 15,000+ miles between changes and come closer to cost effective. I doubt you would want the same oil in a marine diesel for that many seasons. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 15:45:08 + From: "Hoyt, Mike" I had my brother pick up 15w40 for me last week. Changed oil today and when old oil drained realized he bought synthetic 15w40. Have outing today and no time to get regular oil. Plan to drain and change later this week to non synthetic Is this an issue? Yanmar 3gm30f ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List LO300
Has lots of help, thousands at least. http://www.gamonyachting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/GAMBloodsuckers.pdf Windburn did double handed flying sails but I ended up awake for the race. At times sections of the deck, sails or lifesling cover was obscured. We used buckets to wash down and clear the cockpit, if you kill one it attracts more for a feast. It clogged the scuppers so had to use the brush handle to mush them up. They bite right through clothes, switched to foulies and boots. Mike Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:50:42 -0400 From: coltrek Congratulations on that - even more impressed that somebodycan stay awake all that time!? Regards, Bill Coleman?C&C 39 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Voltages
We have a number of UPSes in our customer base we support. I have recycled at least 60 AGM batteries this year and sometimes play with them to see if they are good or can be recovered. Even fairly flat batteries may recover. If they can be charged back up, and I use a constant current power supply instead of a battery charger, I see how long the charge takes. Having a 100 amp hour battery come to full charge after 10 hours at 1 amp means it isn't chemically taking a charge. After the battery has been charged, and that may take days, I put a light load on it to remove a small amount of AH, say 10%. The battery is left to sit for a week or so and then I measure the voltage. What I am looking for is one or more cells that are self discharging. If the battery settles in at around 12+ volts there is hope, but if it shows 10 ( or 8 ) then a cell has gone. I can put the batteries back into a Smart UPS and do a run down load test, basically the UPS switches to battery and runs it down to some voltage, switches back to AC and then sends me a report. That will tell me how much capacity the battery has in it. A lot of the time one battery out of the set has gone, some UPSes have 10 batteries in series, some up to 14 in parallel and series. If the UPS is only 2 - 3 years old I may find only one completely bad battery, and maybe three that recover. They are not new, may have 80%+ of original capacity but can be reused in a less critical application. So charge them up, let them sit and check for around 12 volts. If that is good do a run down test ( the old 12v camper bulbs are great for this ) and see what capacity is left. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 PS: I finished the Lake Ontario 300 last weekend ( and Monday ). Finish times ranged from 45 to 61 hours, a result of the wind dying on Monday. Windburn took first in division, first in fleet and line honours on the Scotch Bonnet course. These C&Cs keep going and going. Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:11:30 + From: "Della Barba, Joe" It is not absolutely 100% the batteries are done for. 99% maybe, but sometimes wet cells, especially traction batteries, can take a good equalizing charge and come back to life with some capacity left. My old extra car had a short that would run the battery stone cold dead. It survived about 3 of these and still could be used as a start battery, but it had almost no reserve. Joe Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 7:24 PM Well, if I learned an expensive lesson, I'll just have to accept that. I checked all the cells before putting the charger on them, and they were full. After charging they are still full (even though I heard the liquid bubbling i.e. creating and venting gas toward the end of the charging period). The one battery I put back on the boat yesterday was able to start my A4 and run my electrical stuff no problem, just like normal before all this. I'll take the other down to the boat tomorrow and measure its voltage with my multimeter- it will have been at rest, disconnected, for 24+ hours by then. But I know there is a difference between instantaneous voltage and amp-hour capacity. These are deep-cycle batteries, and I cycled them very deeply :) I'll just have to monitor the situation for the rest of the season and see how bad my mistakes are going to hurt :) Cheers, Randy From: "Fred Hazzard via CnC-List" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:27:38 PM I can tell you from personal experience that AGMs won't servive either. I had 4 hooked in parallel that I flattened to 4.5 v . A painful experience. At the same time I lost my inverter charger. Fred Hazzard S/V Fury C&C 44 Portland, Or On Jul 20, 2017 12:34 PM, "Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if those voltages of 4.7 volts and 5.7 volts were correct, they mean these batteries have been quite severely damaged and will never have anywhere near full capacity again. That is not a maybe. You can get many batteries like that to take a surface charge and appear okay with a voltage reading that looks somewhat normal. There is no muscle behind it. The charger is telling you they are 100% charged to their new and very diminished capacity. Some of the cells may also have run dry. This was not survivable for any flooded battery regardless of quality, or how it was treated otherwise. Bill Bina On 7/20/2017 10:10 AM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote: An update on this. Monday morning I brought my batteries home (I've got two of these: https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Maxx-Marine-Battery-Group-Size-29DC/20531539 dated May/June 2014 with relatively light use and constantly maintained by a 3amp solar charg
Re: Stus-List Battery replacement time
I picked up a Johnson Controls group 31 AGM a year ago, a friend picked up 3 for his house bank. The 200 minutes reserve capacity is a plus, as is the bulk charge rate of about 40 amps in my setup. A downside is they weigh 71 lbs. http://www.multivu.com/players/English/7848851-johnson-controls-agm-battery/docs/sell-sheet-1275152047.pdf I got them at Total Battery on sale for $150 each plus tax and core deposit. http://webstore.totalbattery.com/product-p/agm31p-825.htm I doubt they are worth the $422 list price. Costco is now carrying the JCI group 24 for I think around $166. On long distance races it has no problems lasting 24+ hours running instruments, LED running lights, cabin lights, VHF and occasional Autohelm ( legal under Loor SIs ). The previous West Marine group 24 would last about 12 hours. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Intriguing challenge
I help do the same to a pin stop spinnaker car. Worked. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 > On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Jim Watts via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> I would drill the top hole way oversize (like 3/8") and pull the whole >> works out through it. >> >> Jim Watts >> Paradigm Shift >> C&C 35 Mk III >> Victoria, BC ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Backstay length and tension
+1 for checking the clearance between the aft of the mast and the mast collar. If the forestay is loose the top of the mast may be slightly forward. Going by mast rake is difficult unless the boat is floating to spec. You can take an initial reading with a digital level by comparing something that may be level such as the coamings and the mast. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:40:18 + From: "Hoyt, Mike" Hi Dave Is it possible that there is a mast step adjustment and the step has been moved aft further than desired? Have you tried running the main halyard aft and tightening the halyard? Attaching it to an aft cleat or something very solid and then using the halyard winch should help bring mast tip back. I am not very familiar with the rig on the 34+ but am assuming that like most of the pre Tartan C&Cs the spreaders are not swept back. Also .. a very dumb question .. do you have any jib or spin halyards attached to any point forward of the mast? Mike Persistence Halifax, NS ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Sail advice for 35
The light-medium will be a 155%. I considered going larger but was unable to work out the trade offs. With PHRF Lake Ontario there is not much of a penalty, they switched to 1 sec/mile increments on adjustments a couple of years ago. I would see -1 FS and -2 NFS. Even with -1 sec/mile I was unsure if I wanted to carry that for what might be an advantage below 5 kts TWS mainly. The heavy-medium does well in light air once we get going, better than I expected. I am guessing that it holds its shape well in light air being a molded sail, and at some wind speeds the shape is as important as the sail area. If the sail cannot settle or trim into a nice airfoil then all you get is more drag with a larger sail. Lake Ontario has been good for testing, hours of fluttery shifty light winds on long races. Once we stall out it is a whole process to start moving again, and steering too much just makes it worse. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:53:05 + (UTC) From: "Ronald B. Frerker" When you get the light-medium will you be going to a 160% full hoist given the heavy is 151%?RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL Cc: Michael Brown Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 6:10 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Sail advice for 35 Even with a sail larger than 105 the sheeting angle may make a difference. There isn't much online about racing sail design for an older C&C 30 so some of it is guesswork and some experimenting. I wanted a sail that would cover a wide wind range, possible now with the strength of materials like 3Di. The long term plan is to have a light-medium #1 and a heavy-medium #1. I started with the heavy-medium that ended up as about a 151.4% but with 10" short on hoist. Even going down to a 145% at full hoist affected sheeting angle and draft placement. The range was to be 6 - 19 kts, works well to 21 at which time we reef the main. Acceleration is slow below 6 kts but that was the compromise. I have 3 x #3s with different draft running to a short track on deck inside the shrouds. At least on the 30 anything further inboard started interfering with the main, and the lazy sheet works well as an in haul for small adjustments. I have a kevlar #2 which doesn't see much use. It is the usual design, a 140% with a flatter cut. The flatness tends to reduce the power below 18 kts, and above 22 at 140% it is getting too big. I also suspect the sheeting angle isn't optimal. As a result I tend to go from the heavy #1 to a #3 unless the wind is pretty steady at 20 kts. The fastest we go upwind is with an 85% headsail, 22 - 24 kts and flat water. Still a full main. The 85% has a deep draft forward, points to about 35 AWA, and I have seen 6.7 kts on GPS. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Sail advice for 35
Even with a sail larger than 105 the sheeting angle may make a difference. There isn't much online about racing sail design for an older C&C 30 so some of it is guesswork and some experimenting. I wanted a sail that would cover a wide wind range, possible now with the strength of materials like 3Di. The long term plan is to have a light-medium #1 and a heavy-medium #1. I started with the heavy-medium that ended up as about a 151.4% but with 10" short on hoist. Even going down to a 145% at full hoist affected sheeting angle and draft placement. The range was to be 6 - 19 kts, works well to 21 at which time we reef the main. Acceleration is slow below 6 kts but that was the compromise. I have 3 x #3s with different draft running to a short track on deck inside the shrouds. At least on the 30 anything further inboard started interfering with the main, and the lazy sheet works well as an in haul for small adjustments. I have a kevlar #2 which doesn't see much use. It is the usual design, a 140% with a flatter cut. The flatness tends to reduce the power below 18 kts, and above 22 at 140% it is getting too big. I also suspect the sheeting angle isn't optimal. As a result I tend to go from the heavy #1 to a #3 unless the wind is pretty steady at 20 kts. The fastest we go upwind is with an 85% headsail, 22 - 24 kts and flat water. Still a full main. The 85% has a deep draft forward, points to about 35 AWA, and I have seen 6.7 kts on GPS. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 On 2017-05-02 8:58 PM, Jake Brodersen via CnC-List wrote: Alan, It seems that the smaller your headsail, the faster you go. Pretty soon you can race bare-headed and be at the front of the fleet. Seriously, where do you sheet your 105 to? I am looking to install an inboard track for my #3 to the cabin top, just outboard of the cabin top rails. Right now I have genoa track that runs all the way to the shrouds, but the further forward the car goes, the worse the sheeting angle. An inboard track would help my pointing immensely. Jake Jake Brodersen C&C 35 Mk-III ?Midnight Mistress? Hampton VA ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig
I will be prepping my mast next week and could take measurements. I doubt you would want to mount a normal block on the front of the mast if you are carrying an overlapping headsail. It will rub and maybe catch on every tack. The 30-1 factory spinnaker uphaul fitting was a feedthrough with less to catch. While far from optimum if you are looking to try some light wind downwind cruising you could try it with a simple fixed setup. I have seen some boats use a fixed ring to mount the spinnaker pole to the mast and a similar ring further up with a line looped through it for the uphaul. It doesn't adjust much under load, but that may be fine for you. It is also cheap and won't snag your headsail. You will need a downhaul / foreguy. The can work from a block on the toerail, maybe a forward eye if you have one mounted. I use a block on the base of the mast, fix the line on the starboard side of the mast, up to a block on the spinnaker bridle, then down to a block on the port side of the mast and then to the cockpit. Somewhat strange but it allows sheeting the pole forward and back without having to adjust the downhaul. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:41:02 -0400 From: Kevin Deluzio Hi All, This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like to rig it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but I like the idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to install a block for the pole lift and I?m wondering where to install it. In the C&C manual it shows the pole lift at 22?-0? above the ?black line? at base of mast. But I don?t have a black line on my mast, not at the base (which I assume is around the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. Does anyone know where I would locate these black lines? or the height of the topping lift from some other reference point? My second question is where to mount the pole downhaul (foreguy) - a? Thanks for this. By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here?s to all the other C&C owners out there who?s arms are a sore as mine this time of year as we get these boats ready for launch. Kevin Deluzio S/V Solevento C&C30-1 #641 Kingston, ON ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Raymarine ST 60+ Wind Tranducer - Cups not spinning
The bearings are replaceable. They are friction fit into plastic but with a gentle pressure and heating the plastic they will slide out. I have done a couple for myself and some other people. Rebuild kits are available still which may contain the bearings ( 4 total ), new vane and cups. The bearings on the ones I did where "3 x 8 x 4" miniature / instrument bearings. I got these from a local supplier at about $20 USD each: http://german.bearings-web.com/bearing-SM-830W40ZZG7-bearing-MINIATURE-AND-INSTRUMENT-BEARING-SERIES-TABLES-SM-830W40ZZG7-1102443.html They have been working fine for a couple of years. Given the cost of a trip up the mast, 4 bearings and the possibility that your unit is broken I would check out the price of a new unit. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, Our Raymarine ST 60+ Wind Tranducer has a problem - the cups are not spinning, and though the wind vane swings with the wind, neither the wind speed nor the direction show up on the gauge, though the compass does. I know that I can get a rebuild kit, but it seems to be just the cups and the wind vane.? Should I bite the bullet and just replace the transducer?? I am going to have a rigger show up to address a number of issues all at once, and he charges $80 per trip up the mast.? Hoping you can provide some insights, Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 27/40+, Madeira Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Stuffing box restuffing
When I did the 7/8" shaft and Algonquin stuffing box on Windburn this is what I used. 18 DUR-UX0313-01 PACKING ULTRA-X 5/16" SOLD BY$0.46 $8.28 https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/packing-ultra-x--inch-or-pound--42950.html I tool less than 9", but ordered 18" to have some spare. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 03:32:40 + (UTC) From: gerald field I am looking for information on the size of stuffing packing needed on my C&C 30 any information will be welcomeRegards Gerald Field ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List genoa cars and tracks - C&C 30 MK1 1979
I installed separate tracks. A longer one back to handle sails in the 140 - 155 range and a short track between the shrouds and cabin for < 100. The height of the clew controls how far back the genoa car is positioned. I doubt the 110 will sheet inside of the shrouds. If the clew is higher than the top life line it will sheet a few feet back of the shrouds and you can design with one longer track inboard towards the cabin. If the clew is low than a more outboard track closer to the shrouds is needed. http://www.sailmagazine.com/racing/regattas/headsail-sheeting/ That is a good starting point. You can measure and leave a tape strip on the luff about 40% up, then play with the sheets until you see where they land. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Steven Tattrie Hi everyone, I am investigating putting genoa tracks and cars on my C&C30 MK1 1979. I have a 110 and 150 head sail. Can folks racing 30's comment on what is the best configuration of tracks on a 30. Will one long track work verses separate tracks for different sails? and where on the deck would they be installed? would the 110 be sheeted inside the shrouds? when they are best used? I have been searching photos on the internet and found at least half a dozen different configurations. So I don't think will be an easy decision on where to locate. you comments will be appreciated Steve ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance
> requiring more halyard tension to touch the starboard rail than the port rail When I am centering the mast side to side I use the main halyard, a stiff bungee cord and a tape measure. On either side to start with I hook the bungee to the halyard shackle and through the toe rail, then tighten the halyard until I get significant force on the bungee. I measure from the top of the toe rail to a point on the halyard shackle, then move the set to the other side and measure again. Half of the difference is how far I have to adjust to, and the force of the bungee is more consistent then me trying to guess how hard to pull. You can get pretty close without having to switch sides by calculating the target distance. The boat may shift a bit, the mast step compress etc so a switch at the end is required. The mast rake advice in the C&C manual is a good starting point. You do want to confirm it is right by sailing close hauled in 10 - 12 kts TWS and getting slight weather helm. How much is a preference but if you are fighting the wheel it is slowing the boat down. I have an adjustable forestay ( normal turnbuckle ) so I can dial it in without having to move the mast butt. I think people leave a small amount or weather helm so that if you do get surprised by a gust it may round you up a bit and help depower. Uncontrolled lee helm will force you down and make it harder to steer, along with other exciting effects. I see from your posting that the aft girder has significant "wings" which will extend side to side in the boat. When I rebuilt Windburn's mast step I had similar smaller ones but was not able to fit the piece in place with them. If the girder was only 1/4" thick like a cardboard template it would go in but the thicker part did not. Despite having snow this morning I know spring is coming ... Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance
I would guess the foot of your mast has some heel in it to allow the mast head to position fore and aft during sailing. If so installing the mast step at some angle would control where the contact point is and thereby how the load is spread out over the girders ( stringers ). The configuration on Windburn has some extra pieces. There are two 3" angle aluminum supports with one leg vertical and the other leg providing a surface for the mast block to sit on. The vertical sides, the forward one in front of the forward girder and the rear one aft of the aft girder, are bolted through the aluminum and the girders. The top surface has been drilled and tapped for machine screws come through the mast step block. The mast has been drilled and a pin goes through it and the mast step casting to lock the mast down. A safety requirement for the Lake Ontario Offshore races. In case of a problem the base of the mast is not free to move around in the cabin. I planned on a trial fit of the mast in tuned position and backstay tightened to check where the contact point was and might have to change the geometry to center the load. By luck it was pretty much in the middle of the mast casting so I left it. Side to side "level" may be as critical as fore to aft. The fore to aft on Windburn was a guess with the intention to set it level. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 07:11:56 + (UTC) From: RANDY Listers- Seeking your input here. I'm in the middle of the mast step rebuild project a la http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/maststep/maststep.htm . Lots of pictures of the project at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTSzRLbFo0NDl6U1E . I'll be cutting new supports from laminated GPO-3 slabs Saturday night or Sunday morning. Before installing the new supports, I have to decide on the elevation of the aft support. Of course I took careful elevation measurements from the cabin sole before removing the original supports. But the question is, what was the original shape of the top of the aft support? I believe the middle of Grenadine's aft support, under the mast step block, was compressed down from its original elevation due to a combination of weakness in the support and standing rigging tension (especially backstay). Have a look at the pictures and you can clearly see what I mean, e.g. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTLXZuXzd1T1pkR28. This compression has the effect of pitching the mast step aft, thereby moving the masthead aft, thereby increasing weather helm (which I've definitely noticed under enough wind and sail - it was strong under full main and #2 genoa in 30 kts, not surprisingly). However I also believe that the original elevation of the aft support may have been carefully tuned for helm balance, prior to compression below the mast step block due to weak wood and standing rigging tension. The reason this elevation question matters so much is because, using trigonometry, I can calculate the distance by which different elevations of the aft support will move the masthead forward or aft, which in turn will affect helm balance. Each quarter inch of aft support elevation difference could move the masthead about three inches I believe. The last picture (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTU3hRNmZoMUU1MFk) in the Google Drive folder linked above shows the templates from which I'll cut the new supports, traced from the original supports removed from Grenadine's bilge. I hypothesize that the dashed line I drew at the top of the aft support template may have been the aft support's original elevation. I'm halfways tempted to split the difference and cut the new aft support to have that elevation. Of course, I could be full of crap, because I tune the mast rake using the stays after all, which probably influences helm balance more than mast step pitch. And of course I can control the sail selection and sail trim, which probably influence helm balance more than mast step pitch. However, for a given sail selection close-hauled, with neither the backstay nor forestay over-tensioned, the mast step pitch would certainly influence the masthead position and therefore the combined center of effort of the sail plan. What say ye? Does anyone out there know if the top of the original aft mast step support on a 30-1 was flat all the way across, or did it come from the factory with a little elevation drop to tune helm balance? I'll be committing an assumption about that to a GPO-3 slab with my jigsaw in the next day or two. Thanks in advance, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List putting teak hand rails back together - tips
On Windburn the external rails are held down using SS hanger bolts. They are convenient to lay a bead of butyl around while installing. So far ( 17 years ) no concern with strength. The inside rail has a long screw that goes through the cabin top and into the external rail. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Recharging a battery
That should be Caustic Soda, not Baking Soda. If a battery in otherwise good shape has self discharged to the point of being flat has a bit of Epsom Salt or such added it might help recover the battery. No magic going on. With a flat battery it is hard to get a current flow started and the cells may not respond equally. A small amount of some metallic salt will allow charging and help with equal charging. I have used a variable power supply to recover a new but flat AGM. They were left uncharged for about 3 years. It required around 30v to get a 0.05 amp charge started, which gradually became 0.1 amps at around 20v after a couple of days. Out of three dead AGM two have recovered and I was able to run a discharge / normal charge test on them. The other AGM only recovered to 10.4v after sitting idle, one cell never charged. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Stu" Has anyone tried the baking soda/epson salt method to recharge a dead battery? Stu ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Automatic bilge pump
I installed the Whaler Gulper 320 in the area under the forward dining bench seat and used a remote pickup directly under the mast step. I wired in a Whale BE9006 electronic bilge switch with delay and have a three way ON - OFF - AUTO switch. The combination works well. When there was a centrifugal pump doing the work without a check valve there was always water sloshing around. Now it is pretty dry. The discharge line still runs to the port stern and exits about 6" down from the toe rail. Despite the 320 GPH rating of the Gulper and the ~ 500 GPH rating on the previous pump I think the Gulper is pumping as well or better. One other advantage is that when Windburn is on the hard and covered I can use a wet / dry vac on the pickup line and get the bilge dry enough that I do not have to use antifreeze. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Josh Muckley Check out a water witch switch. I had automatic Rule that "sensed" the presence of water every 2.5 minutes. It was so inconsistent about turning off that I ga e up and used it like a manual pump. The I think it was OEM but may have been the PO that wired the manual switch and a float switch in parallel. I can start the pump and pump it pretty close to dry when I'm there to do it. The rest of the time the float lifts up and starts the pump. I have a water witch switch that I've been meaning to install as well as a whale diaphragm pump. My discharge is very near to the water under the reversed transom. I like the concealed nature of the location but it necessitates a high point loop so that there is no chance of submerging the discharge and then siphoning back into the bilge. Since there is a high point of discharge tubing, every time the pump shuts off, the tubing drains back and partially refills the bilge. I installed a check valve but the centrifugal pumps still rely on having about 1/2 of water so no matter what my bilge is never dry. When my rule pump died I was in a pinch and it was late at night. Walmart was the only option so I got a normal starting (not automatic), attwood, I think it is the 800gph but it might be the 1200gph. It has lasted 4 seasons now. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tsunami-800-GPH-Cartridge-Bilge-Pump-12VDC/11071214 The whale pump is a positive displacement diaphragm pump which is capable of self priming and can provide lift of up to 10 feet. In short it can nearly suck the bilge dry. I've had it in mind to install it such that after the centrifugal pump turns off to have the whale start and finish the job. The whale pump has at least 2 built in check valves, so the risk of drain back is pretty much eliminated AND it will pump air so it is effectively blowing down the lines dry. The only drawback is that it is pretty small on the capacity scale - 300 gph. http://www.whalepumps.com/marine/product.aspx?Category_ID=10008&Product_ID=10014&FriendlyID=Gulper-320 https://waterwitchinc.com/bilge-switches/ I also have provisions to use the shower dewatering pump and/or the engine raw water pump to suck out the bilge as well as the manual pump. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?
I have been using Cetol for a while, same gallon can for 10 years. It is basically an oil based teak coloured stain, completely different from a varnish. It works well on Lake Ontario and when the exuberance during racing requires a touch up I also like the ease of maintenance. What is the new equivalent to the old just oil Cetol? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Fred Hazzard I like how easy Cetol is to repair dings and scratches. A light feathering sand and apply another coat. Fred Hazzard S/V Fury Portland, Or ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Deteriorated mast step
Klacko Spars is still making some C&C parts out of cast aluminum. No idea about mast steps. www.klackospars.com Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: T power via CnC-List Subject: Stus-List Deteriorated mast step Hi, I own a C&C 30 MKI that has a badly eroded aluminum mast step, is there a place where I can get a replacement. Thanks for any help. Cheers, Tom ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List marinco/shorepower inlet
> I also screw the locking collar tight to ensure a tight connection. I watched a boat leave the dock with the power still connected. I am impressed at how well that locking collar worked. It was the metal one into the metal version of the inlet. Once they got some slack it even undid and they could toss the line back to someone on shore. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Dennis C." I have seen and replaced several deteriorated updated Marino inlets. I like the Smart Plug. Appears to be a superior product. Would probably replace Touche's Marinco if it got flakey. Having said that, a few preventative steps can make your existing setup safer. I wrap my shore power cord around a winch before plugging it in. That prevents any side forces on the plug. I also screw the locking collar tight to ensure a tight connection. Look at your inlet configuration. If the cord is not supported and is hanging or otherwise placing side force on the inlet, devise a way to support it. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Battery test
Some background: http://4xspower.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bci-ohmicreadings.pdf Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Josh Muckley I'd like to know more about the technology, how it works, and how accurate it is. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Battery test
> Typically batteries are only considered at their end of life until they > only test at 50% of original labeled capacity. A rough guess for a marine deep cycle battery is that during a Reserve Capacity test if the under load voltage drops to 11v at less that half the run time the battery has less than 50% of the original capacity. > There is no need to go full discharge. If the battery is in known good shape you can extrapolate the capacity from a partial discharge. A defective battery may still work correctly and follow a normal discharge curve for a while, then rapidly it's voltage will fall off. Sort of like the "Discharge curve of SLA batteries" from here: http://www.steveduncan.net/html/discharge_testing_slas.html Testing those three batteries for 15 minutes would yield similar results, but only one battery has full capacity. Which is what you are saying with your junk batteries. So in some cases going to full discharge may make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Josh Muckley There is no need to go full discharge. The voltage and capacity properties of a lead-acid battery have a near linear relationship so a 50% discharge is fine for testing. That should be 11.6v. All of this is just a comparison. A brand new battery might show +/- 10% of the labeled rating. That doesn't mean that you got a good or bad battery. It's just an indication of how difficult it is to accurately measure the capacity. Typically batteries are only considered at their end of life until they only test at 50% of original labeled capacity. Capacity tests really are most powerful as a trending and comparison measurement rather than a go/no-go. I've successfully used 100Ah batteries that measured at only 7Ah. I know they are junk but keep them around for various workbench projects. I've even used them to successfully start my spare marine diesel sitting in the garage. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Feb 7, 2017 5:09 PM, "Michael Brown via CnC-List" wrote: > If you have the original battery Reserve Capacity specs it is an > acceptable quick test > to see if the battery is good but maybe worn or at end of life. > > If possible test the battery(s) individually, Charge fully, bring battery > to around 80F and > time how long it will sustain a 25 amp load before reaching 10.5v. Note > that takes the > battery to almost complete discharge and may significantly shorten it's > life. If the voltage > gets to 11.0v and the time is less than half the RC spec there is not much > to be gained > testing further, the battery is worn out. > > The 10.5v sounds pretty bad but that is an under load voltage and is > different from an > at rest voltage. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > All Contributions are greatly appreciated! > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20170207/5b985121/attachment-0001.html> -- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:44:53 -0600 From: Frederick G Street To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery test Message-ID: <31218ecf-62be-4a0e-83ec-552d052b5...@postaudio.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I think I?ll stick with my Midtronics conductive tester; good, accurate results on the health of my golf-cart and start batteries, it only takes a minute, and no chance of starting things on fire? :^) Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( > On Feb 7, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List > wrote: > > There is no need to go full discharge. The voltage and capacity properties > of a lead-acid battery have a near linear relationship so a 50% discharge is > fine for testing. That should be 11.6v. All of this is just a comparison. > A brand new battery might show +/- 10% of the labeled rating. That doesn't > mean that you got a good or bad battery. It's just an indication of how > difficult it is to accurately measure the capacity. Typically batteries are > only considered at their end of life until they only test at 50% of original > labeled capacity. Capacity tests really are most powerful as a trending and > comparison measurement rather than a go/no-go. I've successfully used 100Ah > batteries that measured at only 7Ah. I know they are junk but keep the
Re: Stus-List Battery test
If you have the original battery Reserve Capacity specs it is an acceptable quick test to see if the battery is good but maybe worn or at end of life. If possible test the battery(s) individually, Charge fully, bring battery to around 80F and time how long it will sustain a 25 amp load before reaching 10.5v. Note that takes the battery to almost complete discharge and may significantly shorten it's life. If the voltage gets to 11.0v and the time is less than half the RC spec there is not much to be gained testing further, the battery is worn out. The 10.5v sounds pretty bad but that is an under load voltage and is different from an at rest voltage. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates
I did a similar process with the PO. It lasted about 10 years then started leaking a small amount. The caulking had hardened and was not sealing well against the chain plate. The caulking came away from the SS easily, was a job scraping it away from the deck. I tried a marine silicon based sealant the next time, never sealed that well. Third time I used Bed-It Butyl ( thanks Ed for splitting an order ). Much easier and has sealed perfectly. I like being able to lift the plate, check / move / add butyl if required. That may be one of the few spots were there is appreciable movement that the caulking has to deal with, and staying stuck to SS is tough. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: RANDY Thanks Josh, and Danny, and Mike. Dennis C. is out here in Colorado from Louisiana for a few weeks to do some skiing, so he gave me some free consulting today (well, I did take him to the local Cajun joint the other week and buy him a po'boy and a couple beers, which was the least I could do). Anyway Dennis looked at my chainplate cutouts today and we made a plan of attack for the job, which basically amounts to a re-seal: dig out an inch of core around the cutouts, fill with thickened epoxy (with the chainplates in place), then re-seal. Of course that's a summarization and there is some devil in the details, and I appreciate all of your tips. But that should be sufficient to prevent any further water intrusion into the core. I'm not having any deck strength issues. I'll post some pics of during and after the project. Thanks again Dennis! Cheers, Randy ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Anyone had experience with Starbrite Star Tron Fuel Tank Cleaner?
I drain mine in the fall and use it in the snow blower - gas from an Atomic 4. There are various opinions on how much condensation is even possible at lower temperatures and small amounts of air pumping back and forth. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/fuel_tankt_condensation http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm Although I have never seen water from over the winter I still fill and drain a bit of gas through the tank in the spring then use it in the lawnmower. Fact or fiction it is still an easy maintenance step. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Jake Brodersen" Josh, I always fill my tank up at the end of the season to keep condensation down. A half full tank will ?make water? with the daily heating and cooling cycles. Jake Jake Brodersen C&C 35 Mk-III ?Midnight Mistress? Hampton VA ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment
Chlorine does react with SS. I would be careful using it on a boat in high concentrations. Also standard bleach is not a cleaner unless it has some additives. I think the chlorine tablets remain stable for a while but liquid bleach like Clorox breaks down into salt and water even while sealed. In places that need known concentrations the suggested shelf life is six months. If it is stored outside of 50 - 70F it may break down faster. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 15:09:52 -0500 From: "Bill Coleman" To: Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment. Message-ID: <1b3301d27810$28a15fc0$79e41f40$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Matt, you probably dissolved a hole in your tank. Chlorine is super corrosive. I put a little chlorine pool pill in my intake strainer, and it corroded the 316 SS screen so bad half of it was gone. Didn?t take that long either. Bill Coleman C&C 39 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:50 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment. I discovered something by accident a few years ago. I decided to clean the cruddy, old freshwater tank on my 34 by putting in some water and a gallon of Clorox and letting it slosh around. I discovered a day or two later that the tank had leaked and nearly all the contents had drained into the bilge (which was more or less filled). When I removed the highly chlorinated water from the bilge, it was remarkably clean. ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List mast wedge and hatch lens
I did not have much success keeping hardwood wedges in place and tight on Windburn. Spartite is an option but after some discussions with a fellow racer that does rigging and a sailmaker I tested to see how much mast bend I get under normal maximum backstay tension. The sailmaker looked and said it was negligible, my untrained eye didn't see any. The concern is that I am getting additional rake which tightens the headsail luff but is that effectively transferring a lot of force into the cabin top / mast collar ( backwards ) and mast step ( forwards ) while requiring extra backstay tension? I understand with "flexible" masts that blocking at the mast collar is required and inducing bend flattens the main. I don't see much of that on my C&C 30-1. So I wondered what the pro / cons were for blocking tightly. I made some measurements, tested hard rubber strips for minimum compression and fitted Windburn with them. Maybe the backstay requires a little less force to fully tighten, other than that I have not noticed any change in tune or sailing characteristics. The mast is snug but can move 3/16" forward and back ( rough measurement ) in the collar. The wedges might hold the mast collar down, opposing the effect of halyards trying to lift it and cabin top compression from the chain plates. Windburn has split mast collar hold down brackets with a bolt adjustment. Another tuning step every spring. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Jeffrey Nelson If you have access to a bandsaw/tablesaw, it's fairly easy to make your own wedges from a chunk of hardwood. I don't know of anyone who has them comercially available. I milled my own a while back from a chunk of wood I grabbed off my wood lot. The wedges are tapered on one side. I cut the taper on my table saw on a wide board, then ripped the board into the width for the wedge to make a bunch. 2 inches seems wide for the wedge. More wedges and narrower will make fitting easier. I think I've got 8 or so around my mast. You must have a place like: http://www.kjpselecthardwoods.com/ around Kingston somewhere as a good source for some 4/4 or 6/4 hardwood. Another option is to use a product like: https://www.spartite.com/Default.aspx?SiteID=3 I replaced my forward hatch lens a number of years ago for much of the same reasons you are now. I don't remember the exact product, but I suspect it wasn't acrylic. Some other polycarbonate. Any plastics shop should be able to recommend the righ material for UV resistance and strength. Hope this helps. -- Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C&C 30 Armdale Y.C. Halifax ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List mast wedge and hatch lens
Welcome aboard. Nice boat ;-) I have tried a few things for the mast wedges. Last year I purchased a small roll of heavy rubber floor mat from Princess Auto ( was on a bulk roll, cut a minimum 1' off ). I cut it into two pads since I have a hold down clamp on both sides. They are a snug fit covering the front and rear of the mast up the sides to the clamp. Worked well, stayed in and did not crush but allowed a small amount of motion. For a hatch replacement the two main choices are Acrylic and Polycarbonate. I would guess Acrylic is a common choice, I have worked with a small shop locally on a few projects. They do boat work including large windshields, small stuff like instrument panels. If interested contact Dale here: http://www.acryliccustomdesign.com/ They have a high end flat bed laser cutting system and Acrylic specific machining tools. They can make stuff from drawings if required. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Kevin Deluzio Hi, I?m in the first year of owning a 1980 C&C 30 Mk1, (- love the boat -) and I have a couple questions that I am hoping some of you may be able to help me with - thanks in advance. First - mast wedges The boat came with about 3 or 4 wooden wedges about 1? x 2? x 4? that were wedged between the mast and the mast collar where it went through the deck. They were falling out most of the season. I am told that the original design had 4 wooden wedges that countered the mast to fill in the entire 360degrees around the mast. Is that true? What is a best way to replace these - Spartite ? Second - hatch lens replacement The V-berth hatch lens was cracked and leaking last season. I have removed the lens and plan to replace it myself. Hoping that the supplier can cut the new one to shape using the old as a blank, or I have access to a bandsaw to do that part of the job. What?s the best material for this - Acrylic? Any advice from others who have done this job before? thanks Kevin Kevin Deluzio 1980 C&C 30 Kingston, ON, ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List freeze proofing
The pink RV style antifreeze does freeze solid though it is suppose to not expand enough to break copper pipes at least down to the rated temperature. It may break plastic before the rated temperature. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: RANDY Thanks Rick, that's a relief to hear. I've been worried that I didn't let my A4 warm up enough to open the thermostat before sucking anti-freeze through it. I did run about five gallons of fresh water through it before two gallons of pink anti-freeze, and I did confirm pink anti-freeze was coming out the exhaust before shutting it down. Will find out next spring whether my winterizing was good enough, and will be more thorough next fall. Meanwhile it's too late now - we've already had a sub-zero night, and the lake is iced over enough to hold my stupid dogs up on the ice. Cheers, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Stus-List Was Rewiring mast and anchor light, now Windex light
I started with something similar to this for the housing: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/power-pro--4-led-courtesy-light-surface-mount-with-chrome-case-red-led--17030297?recordNum=106 The one I have is all white plastic, similar but I think a different manufacturer. I removed the original LEDs, replaced them with wide angle RED leds and used silicon to waterproof it again. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/50-pcs-3mm-Flat-top-Red-LED-Wide-Angle-Flat-Head-Light-lamp-New-Free-Shipping-/180973391516?hash=item2a22dace9c:g:JbsAAOxy7odRzv9~ It has its own supply wire that runs from the cockpit switch for the binnacle compass ( C&C 30-1 ). Not required but I removed the red tape from the Windex and replaced it with 3M red reflective tape. At night it stands out well but does not interfere with night vision or look like an incorrect navigation light from a couple of hundred feet away. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling
On Windburn we do end-for-end due to carrying an oversized pole. The J is 13.5' and the the pole is 14.4'. We normally do not have guys. If there is difficulty keeping the chute stable and helping out foredeck by steering the chute try centering the main for a moment just as they are about to snap in the mast end. Further to what Dennis is advising I find that losing the sail area of the spinnaker due to it not drawing well is slower than losing the sail area of the main for 5 - 10 seconds during the gybe. Note that the symmetrical spinnaker is 850 sq ft vs 225 sq ft for the main on Windburn. In very light winds when gybing from a hot angle centering the main also helps to keep the spinnaker from collapsing and wrapping the forestay. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Dennis C." Charlie, While many consider 35-36 feet the upper limit for end for end gybes, we use end for end with an aluminum pole on Touche' (35-1). With the right technique, you shouldn't have issues. I've been doing foredeck since the mid 90's. I think the key to a good, and safe, end for end gybe is the driver and the way the driver and crew think about the gybe. Many sailors think a chute gybe is moving the chute across the boat. I don't subscribe to that philosophy. A better way to think about gybing is you're moving the BOAT under the chute. Doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is. The idea is to keep the chute flying and drawing while the driver gradually steers the boat to the new course. If the chute continues to fly effectively, connecting the pole to the new sheet and then the mast will be nearly effortless. Sit down with your crew and talk about gybing with this philosophy. It may be the difference you need. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C&C 36 XL/kcb, for our > kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes > or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with > snap-in fitting on both ends. > > We always use lazy sheets and guys. > > As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or > should use. > > However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our > jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I > share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the > jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man > struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time > and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it > also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and > shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. > > I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above > about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems > like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we > raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole > downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of > them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened > out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. > > OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in > the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a > need for more practice. > > My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in > so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water > Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always > use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > C&C 36 XL/kcb > > cenel...@aol.com ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List speed instrument frustration
I had the Signet wind instrument set on Windburn. To get inter-connectivity I switched to Raymarine ST-50 wind. My feeling is the Signet responded faster, was more accurate and would work to a lower wind speed. I called Signet support once, they helped me get a part number for a component and offered to ship one to me or cross reference it so I could purchase locally. Note that the SL254 has apparent wind only, no way to switch to true under way. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Nate Flesness I just discovered (new to me at least) that Signet Marine sells refurbished Signet Marine traditional round instruments and sensors. http://www.signetmarine.com/products-2/used_instruments/used.html. They give seemingly-appropriate warnings about reduced appearance and expected lifespan, and prices look medium. I might consider this for my wind stuff (already replaced speed and depth instruments on my 36 year old 30-1). No connection to SIgnet. Nate Sarah Jean 1980 30-1 on the hard on the St. Croix River, WI. and Valhalla 1994 Tartan 31 on the hard Siskiwit Bay Marina Cornucopia, WI Lake Superior ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?
Interesting topic considering it does reduce down to connecting three wires more or less. The executive overview is that hopefully the inverter, circuit breaker panel and GFCI will come with good instructions on how they need to be wired. At least some of the GFCI are recommended for use in two wire only retrofits. The requirement is that somewhere at the power source there is a ground. These units may come with a sticker saying "non grounded outlet". The test button still works since it jumpers over the sensing circuitry from hot to neutral, no EGC required. Maybe this will explain it a lot better: https://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/NEMA-GFCI-2012-Field-Representative-Presentation.pdf Check out page 14. A point I was commenting on was that even with a correctly wired AC system, EGC and earth ground bonded together at the correct location and everything to spec a person can still get electrocuted. It is a safety requirement though more so to help the utility with lightning strikes and to ensure the OCPD ( circuit breaker ) trips if a load shorts out. Tongue in cheek was the comment that the ground path is likely the current return if a person gets a shock. If there is a problem with the earth ground even a GFCI may not help. In a marina or club if all the grounds are correctly tied together a persons safety is dependent on the quality of the worst installation using shore power. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Josh Muckley "So if the inverter is floating and has no ground you cannot get a ground fault shock. If there is a ground wired in you could get a shock but the GFCI should trip. Maybe having the GFCI in is a good thing in that if there was a defect in the load you would never know it without a ground. With it the GFCI would keep tripping letting you know something is wrong." Michael, As you stated the GFCI is comparing the current on both the hot and neutral. When a difference is sensed it trips the GFCI. You mentioned that without a ground the GFCI won't trip. 2 thoughts come to mind. First, without a ground, the GFCI won't trip during a "test". The pushbutton connects a high resistance to the ground prong creating a leak path for current so in that case you're completely right the GFCI won't trip. Second, the GFCI is still sensitive to a difference in current between hot and neutral. You can wire a GFCI ungrounded and it will still trip during a fault. You need a leak path. Most GFCI outlets are sensitive to 5mA. The idea that the inverter is using an ungrounded system and as a result, you won't trip the GFCI sounds synonymous with the idea that since I'm wearing rubber shoes, standing on carpet, in a wood frame house I won't get shocked by the hot. I can tell you from experience, you will get shocked! All of this discussion about floating AC actually gets me thinking about whether or not the GFCI outlet has a disconnect on both the hot and neutral lines. Even if the GFCI trips the neutral prong may still be connected to the neutral wire which in a home isn't a problem, but with a floating AC system you could still be exposed to voltage. We had problems similar to this while on Navy ships. The crew had bought generic computer surge protectors which all needed replaced with high dollar ones since the generic ones only protect the hot terminal. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?
I think you have it, that is how a GFCI works. In the case of an inverter that is floating use of a ground is a bit of an oxymoron. The principle is that every electron that comes out of one connection has to go back to the other connection. If the GFCI is directly connected to the two connections on the inverter, then two connections to the load the current should always be the same. There is no other path for the electrons to take. As Joe points out you should be able to grab either line and stand in a puddle of water without getting a shock or tripping the GFCI. There is no path for the current back to the other terminal. If you add a ground or connect to a ground now there is a second path likely to whichever side is deemed the neutral. That connection is to the power source and bypasses the GFCI. So if the ground conducts any current the flow through the GFCI is not balanced and it will trip. The ground lead does not have to connect to the GFCI, maybe it does but there is no need. The two UL standards, which may seem a bit strange at first, make sense in that they accommodate what may be already in place that the inverter is connecting to. In a power failure backup mode to a wired building there will be a ground to neutral bond already at the distribution panel if the inverter is connecting there. With no utility involved ( off grid ) the wiring codes may still require a ground and bonding in the inverter. On a boat I do not know what to recommend. If the loads ( appliances ) are all three prong, all the outlets are wired with ground and the inverter supports a bonded ground and GFCI maybe that is the way to hook it up. If the inverter auto switches from battery to shore power then you are wired normally when on shore power. If the AC is stand alone or a three pole switch completely disconnects when going to shore power wiring in a ground and GFCI is not going to hurt. Doesn't help much either. So if the inverter is floating and has no ground you cannot get a ground fault shock. If there is a ground wired in you could get a shock but the GFCI should trip. Maybe having the GFCI in is a good thing in that if there was a defect in the load you would never know it without a ground. With it the GFCI would keep tripping letting you know something is wrong. Not that there is ever any wiring problems on old sailboats .... Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Tortuga "Similarly with an inverter connected to a battery that is not grounded a GFCI should never trip. Theoretically in a floating system the power has to come out of the Hot lead and return in the Neutral. There will never be a ground fault to trip a GFCI. There is no ground." I'm not an electrician, but my limited understanding is that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter monitors the hot and neutral leads and interrupts the circuit almost instantly if it detects a difference between them. The ground lead does not come into it. The Xantrex Freedom HF 1000 that I mentioned in an earlier post is *UL458* -listed. "The two UL standards differ in how they handle AC system grounding: *UL1741*-listed inverters must allow for the neutral-to-ground bond to *only* occur at the main AC service panel. *UL458*-listed inverters have internal neutral-to-ground switching relays to allow for this bond to occur at the inverter if in off-grid mode, OR at the utility power service if it is connected to a utility hookup." Perhaps I'm missing something. Derek Kennedy SV Tortuga, 30 mk1 Ballantyne's Cove, NS ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Slip Choice, backing in > Prop Change
The Gori did poorly, though note it was a three blade folding. Also Gori spec'd the wrong size of prop according to a note at the end of the article. It is a good article but I noted that most of the props stopped from 6 kts in 8 - 10 seconds, the majority of them did 6.4 - 6.65 kts ahead. For me the biggest differences would be in prop walk from 9 to 16%, nearly 70% more prop walk force. Overall the Flex-O-Fold 2 blade looks to be a good choice. The Gori 2 blade physically is very similar to the Flex-O-Fold. Anyone have experience testing those two against each other? Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Nauset Beach" Mike, Several people on the list have retired their Martec props for the very reason you cite: very poor reverse performance. Many have changed to 2 blade Flex-O-Fold geared props and the difference in reverse is dramatic. Take a look at a prop test article from Yachting Monthly in the UK that Flex-O-Fold posted on their website at this link: http://www.flexofold.com/upload_dir/docs/Test_YachtingMonthly_low.pdf The Gori did not rank very well. I believe everyone who has switched to a Flex prop has been happy, once they get the pitch correct. I was initially spec'ed a 16 Diameter x 13 Pitch to replace a 16 x 14 Martec,. That was too much pitch and was getting severe cavitation / vibration. Now I have a 16 x 12 with better performance and very little vibration. Brian ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?
Hopefully the inverter will come with very clear instructions on how to handle ground and neutral. For normal power, ie shore power, this is the US code: "The National Electrical Code ( NEC ) requires the AC source to have a Neutral to ground bond and that there be only one such bond in the entire AC system." So only at the distribution panel is there a bond between neutral and ground. They should never be connected together intentionally at the load. This document covers grounding and bonding, may also cure insomnia. https://www.engineereducators.com/docs/groundingandbonding2-2.pdf Grounding an AC system is done to limit the effect of a lightning strike, maybe an upstream over voltage fault. Bonding the green wire that comes in a three prong plug ( also called a ground ) to Neutral at the distribution panel is to ensure a low resistance return path for a fault. So if anything happens the desired effect is that a hot to ground short will occur which in turn will cause an over current surge blowing the circuit breakers. A person can be electrocuted even with a properly installed and grounded AC system without the circuit breakers tripping. Unless an inverter has some specific design that uses a ground bonding the Neutral and ground together is not going to do much. Check out the last Q&A from Xantrex here: http://www.xantrex.com/documents/tech-doctor/universal/tech4-universal.pdf Similarly with an inverter connected to a battery that is not grounded a GFCI should never trip. Theoretically in a floating system the power has to come out of the Hot lead and return in the Neutral. There will never be a ground fault to trip a GFCI. There is no ground. I suppose an inverter manufacturer could create a third connection back to the power circuit Neutral that bypasses the GFCI. A short to that wire would cause an imbalance and trip the GFCI. Then you would be connecting a floating Neutral to the loads "ground" which may be exactly what the Xantrex article says not to do. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: Ron Ricci David, I've followed some of this thread and have a few concerns where some have mentioned using an inexpensive inverter. Using an inverter that is not intended for marine use or not properly grounded can cause problems. An inverter can produce short duration spikes which exceed the insulation rating of most wires. This becomes an issue in wet areas and will cause insulation failure. There are other issues relating to inducing corrosion. A friend who coincidentally keeps his boat in RI and is the technical support guru for a company that sells variable frequency drives (inverters for AC motors) had to replace his propellers when he used an inverter he bought from Harbor Freight. It was probably fine for anything other than marine use. If the neutral on the inverter is not grounded, the neutral can kill you regardless of the presence of a GFCI. Just my thoughts, Ron Ricci S/V Patriot C&C 37+ Bristol, RI ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List mold killer product Wet and Forget question
You could try a mild solution with Borax. If a bit of the solution is left behind the alkaline environment is reported to be unfavorable to molds. Here is a discussion of Borax, Wet and Forget and the chemicals involved. http://www.psifly.com/cr2/index.php?topic=24991.0 I use Borax in the fall to wipe down the various cubbyholes in the cabin. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 http://www.psifly.com/cr2/index.php?topic=24991.0 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:43:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck S Anyone have any experience with a product called, "Wet and Forget". ?? It is supposed to be enviromentally safe, but kills mold by simply spraying on and let it air dry. Available at Lowes and Home Depot. I'm interested in treating the ceiling and walls of my boat's cabin, as last year it was a real battle with sunny days warming the cabin and cold nights making condensation form on the cold decks and windows. Until the weather finally stayed cold, I was wiping down the ceilings and walls every visit. I guess I should add those humidity absorbing tubs too. Any brands better than others? Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray All Contributions are greatly appreciated!