Re: How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[Rabin Yasharzadehe]

​If have your own domain, you can use CloudFlare as your NS service, and
then you can use there API to update your zone/ip for your home.

http://blog.rabin.io/sysadmin/dynamic-dns-cloudflare​


--
Rabin

On 14 June 2016 at 11:47, Gabor Szabo  wrote:

> Thanks everyone. I see I am probably way behind the current state of
> technology in ISP connectivity and routing.
>
> As far as I know, I am using a dialer which resides in the HotBox they
> gave me. (which is then connected to my own router)
> and if I am not mistaken this means it uses ppp to connect to their side
> and to get the IP.
>
> In the end I only want to be able to ssh to a machine at home. Through
> that ssh I can access anything I need,
> but I am still not sure if and how I am going to do that if I give up my
> nice IP.
>
> I'll try it at another location where we have dynamic IP and see how does
> that work out.
>
> Gabor
>
>
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Re: How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[Gabor Szabo]

Thanks everyone. I see I am probably way behind the current state of
technology in ISP connectivity and routing.

As far as I know, I am using a dialer which resides in the HotBox they gave
me. (which is then connected to my own router)
and if I am not mistaken this means it uses ppp to connect to their side
and to get the IP.

In the end I only want to be able to ssh to a machine at home. Through that
ssh I can access anything I need,
but I am still not sure if and how I am going to do that if I give up my
nice IP.

I'll try it at another location where we have dynamic IP and see how does
that work out.

Gabor
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Re: How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[Yuval Adam]

On 06/13/2016 09:43 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
> No NAT in the context of your question. Whether the IP address will be
> routable is another issue altogether.

Not quite, Carrier-grade NAT (CGNAT) [1] is used by some ISPs in Israel
- CCC is one such example.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-grade_NAT

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Re: How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

[I am with Hot, but not Bezeq Int. I don't believe it matters much.]

Gabor Szabo  writes:

> So I was thinking on giving up the fixed IP and use some kind of
> Dynamic DNS scheme to be able to access my home computer. Will I still
> be able to do that?

No problem with any number of dynamic DNS providers. I use NoIP myself,
but there are lots more or less equivalent services.

> Will I still get a publicly routable IP or will that be already a NAT
> that I won't be access from outside?

No NAT in the context of your question. Whether the IP address will be
routable is another issue altogether. This is only tangential to your
query, but not completely unrelated, so if you are switching to dynamic
addresses here is a war story.

Some time ago my ISP changed my IP address, for reasons unknown, to one
from a different range and I found out that the new one was not routable
anywhere outside of Hot's local network. It proved absolutely impossible
to explain to "technical support" what I observed with black magic
incantations like traceroute etc. It was obvious to them that since when
I connected a computer directly to the modem everything worked (it
worked because DHCP gave the computer's MAC an IP address from the old,
working, range) the problem had to be with my wireless router, end of
ticket. So I gave up and spoofed the computer's MAC in the router to
fool the DHCP server to give me an address in the old, routable
range. So far so good, but if they change something else all bets will
be off.

As for when the address may change, I assume it may happen whenever the
DHCP lease expires (assuming direct DHCP, no dialer). In my experience,
the address stays the same for quite a long time, but I never use it,
just use dynamic DNS always.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | p...@goldshmidt.org

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Re: How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[Moish]

On 13/06/2016 19:54, Gabor Szabo wrote:

Hi there!

For many years I had a fixed IP address using Bezeq International. I
used it to access my home computer while on the road.
I tried to upgrade from 30Mb to 100Mb (they even sold it to me) just to
find out
that they cannot configure 100 Mb if I use HOT as the cable and if I
have a fixed IP.

So I was thinking on giving up the fixed IP and use some kind of Dynamic
DNS scheme
to be able to access my home computer. Will I still be able to do that?
Will I still get a publicly routable IP or will that be already a NAT
that I won't be access from outside?

How dynamic is the IP they hand out. Can it change within a session or
only if I restart the router?

Any experience with this?

regards
   Gabor



Look for an ip monitor script that will notify you by mail about the 
updated ip.
BTW, I have Bezeq vdsl + Netvision + fixed ip on 100mb link (50mbs on a 
good day :) )

Moish

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Re: How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[vordoo]

On 06/13/2016 07:54 PM, Gabor Szabo wrote:

Hi there!

For many years I had a fixed IP address using Bezeq International. I 
used it to access my home computer while on the road.
I tried to upgrade from 30Mb to 100Mb (they even sold it to me) just 
to find out
that they cannot configure 100 Mb if I use HOT as the cable and if I 
have a fixed IP.


So I was thinking on giving up the fixed IP and use some kind of 
Dynamic DNS scheme
to be able to access my home computer. Will I still be able to do 
that? Will I still get a publicly routable IP or will that be already 
a NAT that I won't be access from outside?


Use http://www.duckdns.org and you should be fine (As long as you do not 
run a mail server because a dynamic IP may get blacklisted).
How dynamic is the IP they hand out. Can it change within a session or 
only if I restart the router?
It depends and changes from time to time "dynamic" as you said ;-). It 
can change within a session but that means you get disconnected and 
doesn't happen a lot.


Any experience with this?

Yes read above :-)


Good luck!


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How dynamic is the dynamic IP from ISPs ? (Bezeq Int + HOT)

[Gabor Szabo]

Hi there!

For many years I had a fixed IP address using Bezeq International. I used
it to access my home computer while on the road.
I tried to upgrade from 30Mb to 100Mb (they even sold it to me) just to
find out
that they cannot configure 100 Mb if I use HOT as the cable and if I have a
fixed IP.

So I was thinking on giving up the fixed IP and use some kind of Dynamic
DNS scheme
to be able to access my home computer. Will I still be able to do that?
Will I still get a publicly routable IP or will that be already a NAT that
I won't be access from outside?

How dynamic is the IP they hand out. Can it change within a session or only
if I restart the router?

Any experience with this?

regards
   Gabor
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any recommendation for roaming ISPs (no NAT , ipsec , ssh pptp friendly).

[Boris shtrasman]

Hi,

I'm searching for a "roaming ISP" preferred using HSDPA or equivalent but not a
must.
I wish to be able to take my laptop and work for any urban area in IL
(Non GushDan areas), already checked few ISPs but they failed to
answer my needs (Pelehone & Cellcom):

Pelephone wasn't able to hold ipsec sessions, Cellcom provided me an
awful customer service (perhaps It's just my luck).

* The most important is to get not natted ip:
I need to be able to do ipsec + l2tp connections and lots of udp based
communication (zrtp/ srtp and plain old rtp).

* Most of the traffic is encrypted and going to a few selected servers
located in europe, it ain't a fixed rate (but not more then 1Gb per
day tops):
inner communication is :
A. rdp + vnc communication (as a client).
B. VoIP : sip + [zs]rtp heavy use  ~8 hours of talks on a daily basis and more.
C. version control (svn) : not more then 10mbs per day

I don't care about DPI , and privacy issues, but I do care about using
encrypted data transfer (as I use vpns ).

* preferred small delays but this is not a must - at least : download
rate  256 kbps  and upload 16 kbps.
(Kilo Byte)

* should support linux and windows without custom applications - I
must be able to communicate to the device using some public documented
way:
wvdial , mannual AT commands a kernel module already existing in the
kernel etc .. .
custom app for windows / linux is a big no-no for me.

Could anyone recommend something ?

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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Shachar Shemesh]

On 03/07/11 08:28, Arie Skliarouk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 08:02, shimi  > wrote:
>
> If you want, prior to calling them, to combat them with their own
> weapon, thankfully there's a UDP protocol that probably no ISP
> would want to degrade; Try switching to port 53 :-)
>
>
> I think that would not work as I observe frequent name server errors
> at exactly same periods (I am using Google's free DNS servers 8.8.8.8
> and 8.8.4.4). Hmm, need to switch to the local DNS servers...
If that's the case, then your implied accusation, that they are treating
traffic differently based on protocol, might actually be false. Have you
tried big ping packets (size > 100)? You can send them using "ping -s 256".

If that's the case, then it's "business as usual", and TCP packets
probably have the exact same problems.

As for why communication over the VPN seems slower - it might be that
you have not lowered the MTU of connections going over the VPN link. If
that's the case, packets get fragmented, and a single TCP packet turn
into two UDP packets. If that happens, the chances of a drop are
doubled, which means that the chances of a retransmission are doubled
too. Try to make sure that the MTU of the TUN interface is lower than
the MTU of the actual interface where packets are really sent (ppp0?),
and that there is a firewall rule to squash the MSS to the MTU.

Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:39 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:


No, Geoff, I am not missing that. What you are saying is that the 50%
loss is over the whole path that includes numerous "autonomous
systems" (AS), and not all of it may occur inside the ISP's network.


yes.



While this is obviously correct, if the path to ISP#1 is lousy and the
path to ISP#2 isn't, the only thing that you, the customer, can
control is the choice between the two. How the packets are routed
between ASes is out of scope and, frankly, should not interest you
very much. It should interest the ISP, and your suggestion to give
them a chance to fix their connectivity certainly has merit.


For example, last night, I have redundant connectivity, with different  
methods of connecting to an ISP and two different ISPs. Last night a  
SKYPE call on one kept dropping, so I switched to the other, where it  
went on for an hour with no drops. Not very usefull ancedotal  
evidence, but for me it worked. :-)





Besides, paths are complicated if the OP is trying to connect to his
office through an Israeli ISP from, say the US or Australia. If the
whole path is inside Israel then the number of ASes along the path is
actually small to trivial.



Sorry, I ASSUMED he was talking about paths outside of Israel. If he's  
talking about paths inside of Israel the best thing he could do IMHO  
is to buy an NGN line for the connection, route it through the same  
ISP as the destination and use it as a static route on those systems  
that need to connect to it.


For example, if their current router is at 192.168.1.1 add the new one  
at 192.168.1.2 and have a route for the server (or subnet) it is on  
via 192.16.8.1.2, with the defalt route still being 192.168.1.1.


I have my DHCP servers set up to route a particular system via one of  
the lines or the other, and shell scripts/batch files to switch as  
necessary.



Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 3, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:


FTP? TFTP?



You're right, I think I confused the two. Regular FTP uses TCP.

Geoff.
--
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Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:23 AM, geoffrey mendelson
 wrote:

> However Oleg, you are missing an important bit of information. Since there
> is no such thing as an "internet", one ISP can not be assumed to be at all
> like another. In the real world, such things are determined by how good the
> connection is from you to them, with several ISPs and different routes in
> between.
>
> Usually it means how well does your ISP's ISP connect to their ISP's ISP, or
> even multiple levels of ISPs.

No, Geoff, I am not missing that. What you are saying is that the 50%
loss is over the whole path that includes numerous "autonomous
systems" (AS), and not all of it may occur inside the ISP's network.

While this is obviously correct, if the path to ISP#1 is lousy and the
path to ISP#2 isn't, the only thing that you, the customer, can
control is the choice between the two. How the packets are routed
between ASes is out of scope and, frankly, should not interest you
very much. It should interest the ISP, and your suggestion to give
them a chance to fix their connectivity certainly has merit.

Besides, paths are complicated if the OP is trying to connect to his
office through an Israeli ISP from, say the US or Australia. If the
whole path is inside Israel then the number of ASes along the path is
actually small to trivial.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | o...@goldshmidt.org

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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 08:25:27AM +0300, geoffrey mendelson wrote:

> HTTP was built around TCP because the designers wanted 100% reliablilty 
> instead of (possible) better performance.
>
> FTP was built on neither. The FTP protocol uses UDP, but includes a  
> rudimentry implementation of the same functions as TCP (packet  
> sequencing and replacements of bad/missing packets).

FTP? TFTP?

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
tzaf...@debian.org|| friend

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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:


We are all familiar with UDP vs. TCP tradeoff, but I think it is quite
irrelevant in the context. The OP sees 50% packet loss through ISP#1
and zero packet loss through ISP#2. I do not think that one can claim
that 50% loss is "normal" for UDP and the network works "as designed".
The "upper" TCP will be able to cope with a relatively small loss rate
in the lower layer, but 50% is not reasonable.



However Oleg, you are missing an important bit of information. Since  
there is no such thing as an "internet", one ISP can not be assumed to  
be at all like another. In the real world, such things are determined  
by how good the connection is from you to them, with several ISPs and  
different routes in between.


Usually it means how well does your ISP's ISP connect to their ISP's  
ISP, or even multiple levels of ISPs.


Then on top of it all, it depends upon the load on any leg of the  
trip. As an example, I used to have a VoIP provider that was connected  
in the US to an ISP with an excelent connection to my ISP. Then some  
idiot cut most of the fiber optic cables from Egypt (where all the  
Arab countries routed their data) and they scambled to get any  
connectivity at all.


Well money talks, and they were able to replace their broken  
connections with new ones and got back most of their connectivity.  
This changed the loading on the international circuits and caused the  
rates for data to go up significantly (or the data rates to go down).  
My VoIP provider's ISP re-routed their connections from dedicated  
lines across the Atlantic which they no longer could afford to shared  
circuits terminating in London.


So what was 180ms ping time became 500 or more, causing my VoIP  
connection to fail. A call to tech support, who made a call to their  
tech support, who "fixed" things.


Bottom line, as it were is that you can not compare the performance  
outside of Israel between ISPs. You actually can't compare it in  
Israel too, but that's a different matter.


Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

We are all familiar with UDP vs. TCP tradeoff, but I think it is quite
irrelevant in the context. The OP sees 50% packet loss through ISP#1
and zero packet loss through ISP#2. I do not think that one can claim
that 50% loss is "normal" for UDP and the network works "as designed".
The "upper" TCP will be able to cope with a relatively small loss rate
in the lower layer, but 50% is not reasonable.

What to do may depend on several factors (in no particular order):

1) Is VPN over TCP significantly slower (higher latency) off-peak?
2) Does changing the UDP ports (if at all possible) help?
3) Is ISP#1 a lot cheaper than ISP#2?
4) ISP#1 does not even provide reasonably reliable DNS? Hmm...
5) Can the exact reason for the loss be determined? If it is shaping
then there may be a chance that after a determined complaint things
will get better for a specific customer. If it is overcommitment and
general lack of resources any improvement is unlikely, IMHO. This may
be discovered by playing with ports.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | o...@goldshmidt.org

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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Nadav Har'El]

On Sun, Jul 03, 2011, geoffrey mendelson wrote about "Re: UDP packets loss at 
Israeli ISPs during peak hours":
> That's 10 years old. Even then it was questionable, UDP packets were  
> dropped by ISPs all over the world when congested. That's why I worded  

The "expected" behavior is for the IP network to drop packets without regard
to what they are, so that a UDP datagram, a TCP frame, and an ICMP message
should be dropped with equal probability. For TCP this would mean an eventual
retransmission, and for UDP it would mean a lost packet - which protocols
built on UDP should know how to handle.

But there's a subtle and not often-discussed issue. Somehow, the world
managed to agree on a common and "fair" implementation of TCP congestion
avoidance algorithm, so that TCP streams always reduce their sending rate
when faced with packet drops. A "rogue" TCP implementation could obtain
more bandwidth by anyway trying to send more, but somehow (I could never
explain that) OS writers avoided this temptation. But UDP applications,
often don't - they often send packets as quickly as they can, ignoring
"complaints" (in the form of lost packets) from the network. So it's not
entirely suprising - even if annoying - that there is an "arms race"
between ISPs and UDP-based protocols :(

> With an uncrowded network, UDP makes more sense because there is a lot  
> of overhead in TCP you don't need. In a crowded network, where UDP  
> packets get dropped or delayed, like the are supposed to. TCP is a  
> better option.

Unless you think that with UDP, you can use more than your fair share
that you'd get with a (single) TCP stream. To screw you back, the ISP
can deliberately drop UDP packets :(

> FTP was built on neither. The FTP protocol uses UDP, but includes a  
> rudimentry implementation of the same functions as TCP (packet  
> sequencing and replacements of bad/missing packets).

This is not quite true - FTP uses TCP, not UDP. It actually uses (in its
original design) two TCP connections - one for commands and one for data.

DNS is one of the few common protocols that can (optionally) use UDP.
Another is (again, optionally) NFS.

> IMHO it all depends upon what you are using the VPN for. For watching  
> the "footie" on the "telly" then I would chose UDP with no problem,  
> even when there would be significant drop outs. For a business VPN  
> where I'm editing text or filling out forms, or whatever, TCP would be  
> required as you want to see and send every packet of data. YMMV.

But what if you want to do VOIP over your VPN?
Sorry, but to me it indeed sounds more logical to send your VPN packets
over UDP (or, if you're brave, over straight IP), not TCP.


-- 
Nadav Har'El|   Sunday, Jul  3 2011, 1 Tammuz 5771
n...@math.technion.ac.il |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |He who dies with the most toys is still
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |dead -- Citibank billboard, Manhattan 2001

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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda]

2011/7/3 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
> The company I work at uses openvpn extensively. We settled on UDP-based
> protocol as it is more effective than TCP based.
>
> Inter-Israeli VPN connection works perfectly all of the time, whereas
> international VPN has erratic behavior on at least one ISP. I suspect the
> ISP (XFone 018) dropping UDP packets occasionally during peak hours for
> following reasons:
>
>- ICMP ping to the internet-facing IP number of the VPN router works
>properly all of the time
>- over-VPN ping to some server has about 50% packet loss during peak
>hour (tested at 23:00)
>- on different ISP at the same time there was no packet loss
>- over-VPN ping on the same ISP worked perfectly in the morning hours
>
> Have anyone else noticed the same behavior?
> What is legal status of such network traffic policing?
>
>
There is a nice work about this by Udi Wienberg from TAU -
http://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~udiw/papers/neutrality_miniconf.pdf

In the presentation he gave, he showed several examples of traffic shaping,
and the counter measures that ISPs take in order to prevent the clients from
proving their traffic is shaped. One notorious measure is resetting TCP
connections (so, if your provider is indeed shaping your traffic, it may be
that even if you switch from UDP to TCP, you will still have a problem).

His work is about detecting such traffic shaping.  I also found a site which
helps you test for traffic shaping:
http://broadband.mpi-sws.org/transparency/bttest.php


--
> Arie
>
>
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>


-- 
Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda.
http://ladypine.org
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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[shimi]

2011/7/3 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 08:02, shimi  wrote:
>
>> If you want, prior to calling them, to combat them with their own weapon,
>> thankfully there's a UDP protocol that probably no ISP would want to
>> degrade; Try switching to port 53 :-)
>>
>
> I think that would not work as I observe frequent name server errors at
> exactly same periods (I am using Google's free DNS servers 8.8.8.8 and
> 8.8.4.4). Hmm, need to switch to the local DNS servers...
>
>
>
If that's the case, it wouldn't, probably. If your ISP does not provide you
with the ability to use the yellowpages of the Internet, I would have
switched an ISP _yesterday_... (but would have tried to call them and ask
them to rectify the problem first, as everybody deserves a chance... maybe
they just "got it wrong"...).

If they don't solve the problem and that causes you to switch an ISP, I
would also complain to the MOC. As a general rule, I would record such phone
calls, and trick the other side to admit that they're messing with your
traffic... sometimes they would decline that they're "delibaretly
stopping/dropping traffic", but would admit that "we prioritize HTTP for
better service", which implies the former, obviously, as this is a zero-sum
game.

Of course, you can go Geoffrey's way, and use VPN over port 80 (probably
what they favor their traffic for), affecting your performance, security (no
hidden VPN server anymore...), etc, and wait until the next thing your ISP
fights you, _their customer_, with. OK, try 443 first, as this is less
likely to be messed up by Deep Packet Inspection machines on the way, and
Transparent HTTP Proxies. However, it might be that only 80 is favored in
their QoS box... as I have seen a few years ago in the ISP I'm using...

-- Shimi
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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[shimi]

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 8:25 AM, geoffrey mendelson <
geoffreymendel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Jul 3, 2011, at 8:02 AM, shimi wrote:
>
>>
>> There's a very good reason of using UDP and not TCP for tunneling.
>> http://sites.inka.de/bigred/**devel/tcp-tcp.html<http://sites.inka.de/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html>
>>
>
>
>
> That's 10 years old. Even then it was questionable, UDP packets were
> dropped by ISPs all over the world when congested. That's why I worded my
> answer the way I did. If you understand what the differences are between TCP
> and UDP, you understand the risks, costs and benefits.
>
>
Not sure I follow the "10 years ago" reasoning; Is it your claim that TCP of
10 years ago, and UDP of 10 years ago, are working _differently_ than the
way they work today? (I hope not, I still believe Operating Systems from 10
years ago work Just Fine on today's "Internet")

Or is it your claim that UDP packets are not dropped by ISPs? (If not, read
again what the thread opener complained about: just that!)


> With an uncrowded network, UDP makes more sense because there is a lot of
> overhead in TCP you don't need. In a crowded network, where UDP packets get
> dropped or delayed, like the are supposed to. TCP is a better option.
>
>
That's right, but if you're encapsulating TCP within UDP, and UDP is
unreliable, this is just as bad as sending normal TCP over IP. IP is
unreliable, and so is UDP. You don't need to run TCP with its' overhead
*twice*, with the exponential growth of timeouts as explained in the
article. The encapsulated TCP would do what's needed (retransmission,
reordering, etc) - why would you need to retransmit and reorder _twice_ ? It
doesn't make sense.


> It depends upon what you want. Fast performace with drop outs, or slower
> more reliable performance. For example, VoIP normally uses UDP as the
> desingers prefered to drop packets that arrived out of sequence or late, a
> little sound glitch was worth it for better streaming performance.
>
> HTTP was built around TCP because the designers wanted 100% reliablilty
> instead of (possible) better performance.
>
> FTP was built on neither. The FTP protocol uses UDP, but includes a
> rudimentry implementation of the same functions as TCP (packet sequencing
> and replacements of bad/missing packets).
>
> IMHO it all depends upon what you are using the VPN for. For watching the
> "footie" on the "telly" then I would chose UDP with no problem, even when
> there would be significant drop outs. For a business VPN where I'm editing
> text or filling out forms, or whatever, TCP would be required as you want to
> see and send every packet of data. YMMV.
>
>
Again, you *are* using TCP for the 'reliable' protocols, even on UDP. The
tunnelled TCP would do what's expected from it to do; You don't need to do
it twice. My opinion, at least.


> As for dealing with your ISP, if you want dedicate bandwidth, buy dedicated
> bandwidth. If you want random performance based on the low price plan, don't
> expect them to make it better.
>
>
You would think that a circuit that costs thousands of dollars a month would
have such a reliability build in, no? (and it doesn't, not in our
country...)

-- Shimi
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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 3, 2011, at 8:28 AM, Arie Skliarouk wrote:



I think that would not work as I observe frequent name server errors  
at exactly same periods (I am using Google's free DNS servers  
8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4). Hmm, need to switch to the local DNS servers...



UDP is UDP. Google needs to have DNS servers here in Israel too. :-)

I've been noticing the same thing, but have not changed to my ISP's  
DNS servers. For frequently used web sites, it should make access  
faster, but for random ones where the ISP's DNS server has to resolve  
them, it may make it slower.  YMMV.


Geoff.
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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Arie Skliarouk]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 08:02, shimi  wrote:

> If you want, prior to calling them, to combat them with their own weapon,
> thankfully there's a UDP protocol that probably no ISP would want to
> degrade; Try switching to port 53 :-)
>

I think that would not work as I observe frequent name server errors at
exactly same periods (I am using Google's free DNS servers 8.8.8.8 and
8.8.4.4). Hmm, need to switch to the local DNS servers...

--
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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 3, 2011, at 8:02 AM, shimi wrote:


There's a very good reason of using UDP and not TCP for tunneling. 
http://sites.inka.de/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html




That's 10 years old. Even then it was questionable, UDP packets were  
dropped by ISPs all over the world when congested. That's why I worded  
my answer the way I did. If you understand what the differences are  
between TCP and UDP, you understand the risks, costs and benefits.


With an uncrowded network, UDP makes more sense because there is a lot  
of overhead in TCP you don't need. In a crowded network, where UDP  
packets get dropped or delayed, like the are supposed to. TCP is a  
better option.


It depends upon what you want. Fast performace with drop outs, or  
slower more reliable performance. For example, VoIP normally uses UDP  
as the desingers prefered to drop packets that arrived out of sequence  
or late, a little sound glitch was worth it for better streaming  
performance.


HTTP was built around TCP because the designers wanted 100%  
reliablilty instead of (possible) better performance.


FTP was built on neither. The FTP protocol uses UDP, but includes a  
rudimentry implementation of the same functions as TCP (packet  
sequencing and replacements of bad/missing packets).


IMHO it all depends upon what you are using the VPN for. For watching  
the "footie" on the "telly" then I would chose UDP with no problem,  
even when there would be significant drop outs. For a business VPN  
where I'm editing text or filling out forms, or whatever, TCP would be  
required as you want to see and send every packet of data. YMMV.


As for dealing with your ISP, if you want dedicate bandwidth, buy  
dedicated bandwidth. If you want random performance based on the low  
price plan, don't expect them to make it better.


Geoff.

--
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Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[shimi]

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 7:40 AM, geoffrey mendelson <
geoffreymendel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Jul 3, 2011, at 6:11 AM, Arie Skliarouk wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>>
>> The company I work at uses openvpn extensively. We settled on UDP-based
>> protocol as it is more effective than TCP based.
>>
>> Inter-Israeli VPN connection works perfectly all of the time, whereas
>> international VPN has erratic behavior on at least one ISP. I suspect the
>> ISP (XFone 018) dropping UDP packets occasionally during peak hours for
>> following reasons:
>>• ICMP ping to the internet-facing IP number of the VPN router
>> works properly all of the time
>>• over-VPN ping to some server has about 50% packet loss during
>> peak hour (tested at 23:00)
>>• on different ISP at the same time there was no packet loss
>>• over-VPN ping on the same ISP worked perfectly in the morning
>> hours
>>
>
I would complain and show proof of lost traffic (traffic sent but not
received) - Wireshark screenshots seems to do the trick. Ask them to have
your specific port prioritized. If you're a good paying customer
(non-dsl/cable), there's a good chance they could do something.

If you want, prior to calling them, to combat them with their own weapon,
thankfully there's a UDP protocol that probably no ISP would want to
degrade; Try switching to port 53 :-)

 Perfectly legal. I think your choice of UDP over TCP is ill-advised, and
> requires more research into the differences between the protocols, their
> uses and goals.
>
>
There's a very good reason of using UDP and not TCP for tunneling.
http://sites.inka.de/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html

HTH,

-- Shimi
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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Jul 3, 2011, at 6:11 AM, Arie Skliarouk wrote:


Hi,

The company I work at uses openvpn extensively. We settled on UDP- 
based protocol as it is more effective than TCP based.


Inter-Israeli VPN connection works perfectly all of the time,  
whereas international VPN has erratic behavior on at least one ISP.  
I suspect the ISP (XFone 018) dropping UDP packets occasionally  
during peak hours for following reasons:
	• ICMP ping to the internet-facing IP number of the VPN router  
works properly all of the time
	• over-VPN ping to some server has about 50% packet loss during  
peak hour (tested at 23:00)

• on different ISP at the same time there was no packet loss
• over-VPN ping on the same ISP worked perfectly in the morning hours


You are complaining because UDP packets get lost, arrive late, or out  
of sequence?


That's the definintion of UDP and the reason for the existance of TCP.


Have anyone else noticed the same behavior?


That UDP does exactly what it is supposed to do? That this happens in  
the afternoons and evening when the network gets congested? Or more  
accutately it does not happen in the mornings when the network is  
under utilized?




What is legal status of such network traffic policing?



Perfectly legal. I think your choice of UDP over TCP is ill-advised,  
and requires more research into the differences between the protocols,  
their uses and goals.


Geoff.


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Re: UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Etzion Bar-Noy]

It's probably due to their over commit, and it means your UDP packets are in
queue until expired.
Since Israeli ISPs has learned the trick, I tend to believe ICMP packets
have high priority, so that no customer will be able to complain. When you
can't complain, well, it means that the problem is with you.

Ez

2011/7/3 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
> The company I work at uses openvpn extensively. We settled on UDP-based
> protocol as it is more effective than TCP based.
>
> Inter-Israeli VPN connection works perfectly all of the time, whereas
> international VPN has erratic behavior on at least one ISP. I suspect the
> ISP (XFone 018) dropping UDP packets occasionally during peak hours for
> following reasons:
>
>- ICMP ping to the internet-facing IP number of the VPN router works
>properly all of the time
>- over-VPN ping to some server has about 50% packet loss during peak
>hour (tested at 23:00)
>- on different ISP at the same time there was no packet loss
>- over-VPN ping on the same ISP worked perfectly in the morning hours
>
> Have anyone else noticed the same behavior?
> What is legal status of such network traffic policing?
>
> --
> Arie
>
>
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UDP packets loss at Israeli ISPs during peak hours

[Arie Skliarouk]

Hi,

The company I work at uses openvpn extensively. We settled on UDP-based
protocol as it is more effective than TCP based.

Inter-Israeli VPN connection works perfectly all of the time, whereas
international VPN has erratic behavior on at least one ISP. I suspect the
ISP (XFone 018) dropping UDP packets occasionally during peak hours for
following reasons:

   - ICMP ping to the internet-facing IP number of the VPN router works
   properly all of the time
   - over-VPN ping to some server has about 50% packet loss during peak hour
   (tested at 23:00)
   - on different ISP at the same time there was no packet loss
   - over-VPN ping on the same ISP worked perfectly in the morning hours

Have anyone else noticed the same behavior?
What is legal status of such network traffic policing?

--
Arie
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Re: OT: Cellular ISPs?

[sara fink]

As a start, he should check in the terms of agreement that he signed, what
is their policy about internet, bandwidth, etc.

Someone mentioned about being blacklisted, but I don't remember which
cellular company it was.

In a topic discussed here:
http://hwzone.co.il/community/index.php?action=printpage;topic=391122.0 someone
mentions that "I suggest you to move to either 014 who are "OK" for now, or
move to one of the two new isps 018/ORANGE who are still new in the field
and they didn't get to throttle bittorrent yet.."




On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 10:59 AM, sammy ominsky  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> First, I apologize for this not being directly linux-related, but it's come
> up before, so I thought it would be OK.
>
> Some time ago, there was some discussion about cellular ISP service and
> throttling of VoIP and/or torrent traffic.  I have a customer of my VoIP
> company who recently switched to Cellcom because he moved out to a yishuv
> where he could get neither HOT nor Bezeq as a tashtit.  His VoIP quality has
> been outstanding so far, and he's very happy.  However, he's not a torrent
> user, and I was wondering if anyone here has tried their service and
> discovered whether they throttle p2p or cut your bandwidth if you leave
> torrents running.
>
> Again, sorry for the OT post.  Hope it doesn't bother anyone too much.
>
> thanks!
>
> --sambo
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OT: Cellular ISPs?

[sammy ominsky]

Hi,

First, I apologize for this not being directly linux-related, but it's come up 
before, so I thought it would be OK.

Some time ago, there was some discussion about cellular ISP service and 
throttling of VoIP and/or torrent traffic.  I have a customer of my VoIP 
company who recently switched to Cellcom because he moved out to a yishuv where 
he could get neither HOT nor Bezeq as a tashtit.  His VoIP quality has been 
outstanding so far, and he's very happy.  However, he's not a torrent user, and 
I was wondering if anyone here has tried their service and discovered whether 
they throttle p2p or cut your bandwidth if you leave torrents running.

Again, sorry for the OT post.  Hope it doesn't bother anyone too much.

thanks!

--sambo
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Re: ot: isps

[Amos Shapira]

2009/4/23 Geoffrey Mendelson :
> That's because there are three different networks involved here.
> Orange runs 3 networks. a 900mHz GSM (voice and data up to 14.4kbps if
> they allow it), 1800Mhz (voice, 14.4k data and higher speed data
> (GPRS?) ) and a 2.1gHz 3G network. The 900 mHz network covers all of
> the State of Israel and the territories, for legal reasons it does not
> cover the PA (nudge, nudge, wink wink). The 1800 mHz network has a
> shorter range for each cell and covers less. With the shorter
> wavelength there are more "dead spots". The 3g network is similar to
> the 1.8gHz network in coverage, I have no idea about the number of
> cells.

I'm not going to dispute Geofrrey's (proved) knowledge when he speaks
of something, but my personal experience in the last four weeks of
visiting Israel is that once I got the Orange 3.5G SIM in a Nokia E71
(quad-band, I think it's 850/900/1800/2100) and paid 80 NIS for 5Gb I
managed to receive data signal
wherever I went in Israel (between Ashdod/Mazkeret-Batya to Megido and
Beit-Lechem Haglilit).

Speed is also very good, as far as I can tell it's better than what I
get in Australia. Maybe because their data network is not overloaded
yet?

One thing I think that I noticed is that the battery runs faster too -
I have to refill it every day in order to have enough juice to finish
the next day. In Oz I can run for almost a week without refilling the
battery. I guess that maybe it has to do with fewer towers which
require the phone to increase its own signal strength, but I'm not an
expert.

--Amos

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Re: ot: isps

[Dan Shimshoni]

Hi,
>Skype is a different issue since it communicate via port 80, though
>need a much more advance management tools to be filtered (what's
>called Traffic shaping).

Are you sure about it ? What do you mean by that ??
Does Skype send the **Audio** in ***TCP*** port 80 ?!
Can TCP  do the job for VOIP audio application across the internet?

As far as I know, all traditional VOIP which run across the Intenet
use UDP for audio (and most of the use SIP).
TCP is much heavier, sincr it is stream-based; it has retransmission,
congesion control, many timers and is very complex. When using TCP,
you are most likely to encounter delays and a bad quality. I know that
there were trials to use TCP in VOIP applications with certain
adjustements, but they did not succeed.


Regards,
Dan

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Re: ot: isps

[Geoffrey Mendelson]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:34 PM, nir grinberg  wrote:
>  The current issue with the
> providers are the fact that their data network coverage is not similar
> to their GSM coverage.  in many locations you will be able to talk via
> GSM, but receive a very poor data connection.

That's because there are three different networks involved here.
Orange runs 3 networks. a 900mHz GSM (voice and data up to 14.4kbps if
they allow it), 1800Mhz (voice, 14.4k data and higher speed data
(GPRS?) ) and a 2.1gHz 3G network. The 900 mHz network covers all of
the State of Israel and the territories, for legal reasons it does not
cover the PA (nudge, nudge, wink wink). The 1800 mHz network has a
shorter range for each cell and covers less. With the shorter
wavelength there are more "dead spots". The 3g network is similar to
the 1.8gHz network in coverage, I have no idea about the number of
cells.

Cell-Com has an 800mHz D-AMPS network (voice and 9.6k data if they
allow it), an 1800mHz GSM network (voice, 14.4k data and higher speed
data) and a 2.1gHz 3G network.
Coverage is similar to Orange's.

As far as signal path, the 1800mHz and G3 networks have the same
problems with signals being stopped by things like paper, "sandwich"
type wood, trees, etc that wifi has. In fact, it's best to think of
them as "wifi on steroids" when it comes to propigation and coverage.
They also suffer from the effects of multipath (reflected signals) and
the fact that the least power of a signal is at a multiple of half of
the wavelength aka "nulls". So you can get a good signal at one
location and 6 inches farther away from the cell get nothing useable.

It also suffers from the effects of antenna orientation (polarization)
so a vertical antenna will get 100 times the signal as a horizontal
one.

So not only is it possible to be out of coverage of the data network,
it's easily possible to be in a "bad location".

Geoff.



-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Jerusalem, Israel

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Re: ot: isps

[Dotan Cohen]

> i want a new Internet connection for my home.
>

Stay away from Netvision. While their network is the best in Israel
when it works, their customer support is terrible, and after
experiencing three days of downtime in January I moved to Bezeq
Beinleumi. Netvision does not see three days of downtime as reason fit
to release me from my one-year contract with them, in fact, of the
remaining 400 NIS on the contract they wanted 800 NIS to terminate it
early!

Netvision has proven that they want our money, not our business. Don't
give them either.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Fwd: ot: isps

[nir grinberg]

I know for a fact that both Cellcom and Orange initially blocked VoIP
ports on their data services network.  Following some "pressure" ;)
applied on them (by us as well); the networks were opened and today
"theoretically" support VoIP applications.  The current issue with the
providers are the fact that their data network coverage is not similar
to their GSM coverage.  in many locations you will be able to talk via
GSM, but receive a very poor data connection.
Skype is a different issue since it communicate via port 80, though
need a much more advance management tools to be filtered (what's
called Traffic shaping).

It is my own believe that the cellular provider will do what ever in
their power to delay the entry of VoIP application to their networks
from reason discussed.

BTW, if anybody needs a SkypeIn on Israeli numbers, let me know.


nir

-- 
Regards,

Nir Grinberg
I.T.C. IP Technologies Ltd.
n...@israelnumber.com
www.IsraelNumber.com
972.3.9707000


On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Rafi Gordon  wrote:
> Oleg, first thanks for your answer.
>
>>> AFAIK, this DPI can block voip application like Skype.
>
>>That's an on-going war, similar to the war between P2P applications
>>and DPI. It's not limited to cellular companies, of course.
>
> There is still a little difference here, I believe, with cellular companies.
> Cellular companies get their profits mostly I believe with telephony
> (the internet service in cellular is quite new). So Skype (or other
> voip applications) on a cellular device using internet is a real
> threat on their profits. Not all ISPs, on the other hand, deal with
> telephony, and most of their profits are from internet services, I
> believe.
>
> If this is true, than around the globe, it seems that blocking VOIP
> traffic with DPI is more important to cellular companies supplying
> internet service than to ISPs.
>
> Or am I wrong?
>
> Regards,
> Rafi Gordon
>
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Re: ot: isps

[Rafi Gordon]

Oleg, first thanks for your answer.

>> AFAIK, this DPI can block voip application like Skype.

>That's an on-going war, similar to the war between P2P applications
>and DPI. It's not limited to cellular companies, of course.

There is still a little difference here, I believe, with cellular companies.
Cellular companies get their profits mostly I believe with telephony
(the internet service in cellular is quite new). So Skype (or other
voip applications) on a cellular device using internet is a real
threat on their profits. Not all ISPs, on the other hand, deal with
telephony, and most of their profits are from internet services, I
believe.

If this is true, than around the globe, it seems that blocking VOIP
traffic with DPI is more important to cellular companies supplying
internet service than to ISPs.

Or am I wrong?

Regards,
Rafi Gordon

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Re: ot: isps

[Dotan Shavit]

Time to use traceroute to find the dropping node.
I'd go for mtr 

Note that some network components are dropping pings directed to them, but the 
nodes located after these will still show 0% packet loss.

#

On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Erez D wrote:
> i have no problems with download speed
>
> my ping is acting strange. it works for the first N icmps (N is a number
> between 30 and 150, changes every time), then it stops working.
>
> i spoke with bbl - they can find no problems although i (bbl+hot) and my
> mom (bbl+adsl) have the same problem
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Dotan Shavit  wrote:
> > Try:
> > http://speed.hot.net.il/script/DownloadSpeed.asp
> > And check your effective bandwidth.
> > Also check packet loss statistics with ping and/or hping.
> >
> > With this information you will be able to get decent support from bbl.
> >
> > #
> >
> > On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Erez D wrote:
> > > hi
> > >
> > > i want a new Internet connection for my home.
> > >
> > > first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with
> >
> > them
> >
> > > ? are they good ?
> > >
> > > i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> > > connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to
> >
> > reload
> >
> > > the page ...
> > > are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
> > >
> > >
> > > 10x,
> > > erez



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Re: ot: isps

[geoffrey mendelson]

On Apr 21, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:


If one uses Skype over GPRS then the cell phone company can do DPI, I
suppose. They do get paid for GPRS usage, but a lot of it may be flat
rate. In Israel free Wi-Fi is common enough so using GPRS does not
make much sense in the first place, but in other countries it may be
an option.

This is even more true for the traditional infrastructure providers -
Bezeq and Hot. Both companies provide phone services, and one normally
gets a package of phone and Internet (and cable TV, for Hot) from the
same provider. Therefore, both have an interest to block services like
Skype, and both, sitting on the data path, can employ DPI.

An ISP would presumably like to provide you their own VoIP service
(and charge you for it), so they may be interested in blocking
everybody else, using DPI or whatever. But that is true for any ISP,
not just for a mobile provider.



I would be interested to see it hold up with the MOC. Technicaly, the  
VoIP law of
2004 requires a license to use VoIP. There was a big stink a few years  
ago when the
MOC tried to enforce it and the next day they issued a clarification  
which said that the
PRIVATE use (whatever that is) of VoIP was legal without a license.  
They specificaly

mentioned SKYPE by name.

This was caused by a great public outcry. The MOC was deluged by  
calls, emails, etc

from the public.

So if an ISP blocked SKYPE, one could complain to the MOC who would be  
loath to
reverse itself. IMHO the ISP involved would not want you to complain  
to the MOC as

the MOC might extend their decision and force them to do more.

Geoff.

--
geoffrey mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Jerusalem Israel geoffreymendel...@gmail.com






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Re: ot: isps

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

Rafi Gordon  writes:

> I heard that some cellular companies installed a blocking mechansim
> for their intenet clients which is called DPI.  see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpi

And choose "Deep Packet Inspection" from the options... ;-)

> AFAIK, this DPI can block voip application like Skype. 

That's an on-going war, similar to the war between P2P applications
and DPI. It's not limited to cellular companies, of course.

> And indeed one of the main usages of the DPI is to block VOIP
> traffic for celleular mobile clients who use skype.

If I have a Wi-Fi-capable cell phone and install Skype on it, then
mobile provider is nowhere on the path to do DPI (except inside the
phone, but DPI would be too heavy for the HW).
 
If one uses Skype over GPRS then the cell phone company can do DPI, I
suppose. They do get paid for GPRS usage, but a lot of it may be flat
rate. In Israel free Wi-Fi is common enough so using GPRS does not
make much sense in the first place, but in other countries it may be
an option.

> I believe that the same is for skype on the desktop.

This is even more true for the traditional infrastructure providers -
Bezeq and Hot. Both companies provide phone services, and one normally
gets a package of phone and Internet (and cable TV, for Hot) from the
same provider. Therefore, both have an interest to block services like
Skype, and both, sitting on the data path, can employ DPI.

An ISP would presumably like to provide you their own VoIP service
(and charge you for it), so they may be interested in blocking
everybody else, using DPI or whatever. But that is true for any ISP,
not just for a mobile provider.

> I apprecaite if anybody who know about the status of DPI in
> cellullar companies in Israel will share his knowledge.

Heh-heh, anybody from Allot on the list? Care to spill any corporate
secrets? ;-)

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | p...@goldshmidt.org

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Re: ot: isps

[Rafi Gordon]

Hi,
>first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with them ? 
>are they
I have a question regarding the cellular companies internet service:

I heard that some cellular companies installed a blocking mechansim
for their intenet clients
which is called DPI.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpi

AFAIK, this DPI can block voip application like Skype. And indeed one
of the main usages of the DPI is to block VOIP traffic for celleular
mobile clients who use
skype. I believe that the same is for skype on the desktop.
(I mean that the cellular company blocks it)
For me, using skype is mandatory; so if an internet cellular company
avoids it, I don't want it service.
There is an ongoing trial agains some 3G cellular company in the US
about this; and also some comapnies try to organize against this
blocking in the EU.
My question is: did anyone tried to use Skype (or other voip
application) with a cellular comapany intenet service ? did it work?
did he encounter any difficulties ? I apprecaite if anybody who know
about the status of DPI in cellullar companies in Israel will
share his knowledge.
Regards,
Rafi Gordon


2009/4/21 Erez D :
> hi
>
> i want a new Internet connection for my home.
>
> first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with them ?
> are they good ?
>
> i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to reload
> the page ...
> are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
>
>
> 10x,
> erez
> ___
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>
>

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Re: ot: isps

[Boaz Rymland]

I'm using Nezeq-Intl + Hot with no such issues. But:

* I'm connecting via a router that manages the connection for me (I 
guess I would have still felt it - and I'm not).


* maybe talk to them and try to change the connection type - 
pptp/ppoe/direct/etc. (I was using pptp until a few days and now direct 
connection without those issues).


* I am unable to use Bitorrent these days. This is new thing for me - 
maybe a week or two and very annoying. AFAIK, and unfortunately, this 
also almost common practice for Israeli ISPs these days: 
http://shimi.net/2008/07/28/et-tu-bezeqint/



Boaz.


Erez D wrote:


hi

i want a new Internet connection for my home.

first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with 
them ? are they good ?


i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a 
connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to 
reload the page ...

are other experiencing the same problems with them ?


10x,
erez


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: ot: isps

[Geoffrey Mendelson]

2009/4/21 Erez D :
> hi
>
> i want a new Internet connection for my home.
>
> first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with them ?
> are they good ?

Going back to your original question, Orange has a 5g a month limit,
which IMHO is worthless. I don't think they have an "all you can eat"
plan, but would love to hear if they do. They do have a better WIRED
plan if you buy their router and a voice VoIP line. It goes on to
your existing aDSL line or a cable modem. For 2.5m download (upload
not specified) it's 139 NIS a month, including 20 NIS to your credit
card company for the router (800 NIS charged to it in 36 payments) and
600 minutes a month VoIP to all Israeli phones including all three
cellular companies.

Cell-Com has a 130 NIS a month plan including a similar priced
USB/Cardbus modem,
no voice, just unlimited data, but it is is supposed to be for a mobile device.

I think they both have a 12 month commitment for the service, but you
own the modem
or router and continue to pay your bank until it is paid off. (36 months)

Note that neither network has 100% data coverage over Israel, and you
could easily be in
a "blind spot" or totally out of reach of their networks.

Personally I would never ever do business with Pelephone due to their
way of resolving
customer complaints even of their own making. (sue first, don't bother
to ask questions).

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Jerusalem, Israel

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Re: ot: isps

[Erez D]

btw, disabling ipv6 didn't help either

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Shlomi Fish  wrote:

> On Tuesday 21 April 2009 12:25:54 Erez D wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Shlomi Fish 
> wrote:
> > > Hi Erez (and all)!
> > >
> > > On Tuesday 21 April 2009 11:10:48 Erez D wrote:
> > > > hi
> > > >
> > > > i want a new Internet connection for my home.
> > > >
> > > > first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with
> > >
> > > them
> > >
> > > > ? are they good ?
> > > >
> > > > i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> > > > connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to
> > >
> > > reload
> > >
> > > > the page ...
> > > > are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
> > >
> > > As I mentioned here:
> > >
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il/msg54968.html
> >
> > were you able to solve it ?
> >  did disabling ipv6 work ?
> >
>
> No, I wasn't able to solve it. Reducing the MTU did not seem to help. I
> haven't tried disabling IPv6 yet. The situation seems better on the WinXP
> desktop computer in the same room. I don't seem to get any Firefox problems
> there.
>
> Regards,
>
>Shlomi Fish
>
> --
> -
> Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
> What does "Zionism" mean? - http://xrl.us/bjn8u
>
> God gave us two eyes and ten fingers so we will type five times as much as
> we
> read.
>
>
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Re: ot: isps

[Shlomi Fish]

On Tuesday 21 April 2009 12:25:54 Erez D wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Shlomi Fish  wrote:
> > Hi Erez (and all)!
> >
> > On Tuesday 21 April 2009 11:10:48 Erez D wrote:
> > > hi
> > >
> > > i want a new Internet connection for my home.
> > >
> > > first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with
> >
> > them
> >
> > > ? are they good ?
> > >
> > > i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> > > connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to
> >
> > reload
> >
> > > the page ...
> > > are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
> >
> > As I mentioned here:
> >
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il/msg54968.html
>
> were you able to solve it ?
>  did disabling ipv6 work ?
>

No, I wasn't able to solve it. Reducing the MTU did not seem to help. I 
haven't tried disabling IPv6 yet. The situation seems better on the WinXP 
desktop computer in the same room. I don't seem to get any Firefox problems 
there.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
What does "Zionism" mean? - http://xrl.us/bjn8u

God gave us two eyes and ten fingers so we will type five times as much as we
read.


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Re: ot: isps

[Erez D]

i found the following link:
http://www.internet-2.org.il/%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%92_%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%98/
don't know how to regard the results though ...

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Geoffrey Mendelson <
geoffreymendel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2009/4/21 Erez D :
> > hi
> >
> > i want a new Internet connection for my home.
> >
> > first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with
> them ?
> > are they good ?
> >
> > i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> > connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to
> reload
> > the page ...
> > are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
>
> Except for port 25 being closed, I have had no trouble with Netvision
> since I was dropped
> by IBM when they stopped taking Israeli credit cards (2000?).
>
> I hate BBL because of the way they handled my account and would never
> recommend them
> to anyone.
>
> My son has 012 and is very happy with them. He also uses HOT.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
> Jerusalem, Israel
>
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Re: ot: isps

[Erez D]

i have no problems with download speed

my ping is acting strange. it works for the first N icmps (N is a number
between 30 and 150, changes every time), then it stops working.

i spoke with bbl - they can find no problems although i (bbl+hot) and my mom
(bbl+adsl) have the same problem


On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Dotan Shavit  wrote:

> Try:
> http://speed.hot.net.il/script/DownloadSpeed.asp
> And check your effective bandwidth.
> Also check packet loss statistics with ping and/or hping.
>
> With this information you will be able to get decent support from bbl.
>
> #
>
> On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Erez D wrote:
> > hi
> >
> > i want a new Internet connection for my home.
> >
> > first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with
> them
> > ? are they good ?
> >
> > i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> > connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to
> reload
> > the page ...
> > are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
> >
> >
> > 10x,
> > erez
>
>
>
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Re: ot: isps

[Erez D]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Shlomi Fish  wrote:

> Hi Erez (and all)!
>
> On Tuesday 21 April 2009 11:10:48 Erez D wrote:
> > hi
> >
> > i want a new Internet connection for my home.
> >
> > first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with
> them
> > ? are they good ?
> >
> > i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> > connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to
> reload
> > the page ...
> > are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
>
> As I mentioned here:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il/msg54968.html
>

were you able to solve it ?
 did disabling ipv6 work ?

>
> I've been encountering similar problems with Bezeqint-on-ADSL.
>
> Regards,
>
>Shlomi Fish
>
> --
> -
> Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
> Freecell Solver - http://fc-solve.berlios.de/
>
> God gave us two eyes and ten fingers so we will type five times as much as
> we
> read.
>
>
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Re: ot: isps

[Dotan Shavit]

Try:
http://speed.hot.net.il/script/DownloadSpeed.asp
And check your effective bandwidth.
Also check packet loss statistics with ping and/or hping.

With this information you will be able to get decent support from bbl.

#

On Tuesday 21 April 2009, Erez D wrote:
> hi
>
> i want a new Internet connection for my home.
>
> first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with them
> ? are they good ?
>
> i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to reload
> the page ...
> are other experiencing the same problems with them ?
>
>
> 10x,
> erez



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Re: ot: isps

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi Erez (and all)!

On Tuesday 21 April 2009 11:10:48 Erez D wrote:
> hi
>
> i want a new Internet connection for my home.
>
> first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with them
> ? are they good ?
>
> i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
> connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to reload
> the page ...
> are other experiencing the same problems with them ?

As I mentioned here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il/msg54968.html

I've been encountering similar problems with Bezeqint-on-ADSL.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
Freecell Solver - http://fc-solve.berlios.de/

God gave us two eyes and ten fingers so we will type five times as much as we
read.


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ot: isps

[Erez D]

hi

i want a new Internet connection for my home.

first i thought of trying the cellular companies. any experience with them ?
are they good ?

i am still connected to bbl+hot. i experience problems in creating a
connection. one of every 10 connections doesn't open, and i need to reload
the page ...
are other experiencing the same problems with them ?


10x,
erez
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Bezeq Beinleumi vs. other ISPs

[Omer Zak]

Reminds me of my experience with Bezeq Beinleumi as a former Actcom
customer.
Bezeq Beinleumi assimilated Actcom exactly when my yearly contract with
Actcom ended and needed to be renewed.
Being deaf, I contacted Bezeq Beinleumi by E-mail and asked for details
on their plans and fees - and they didn't answer me.
Eventually I signed up with 012 and reminded Bezeq Beinleumi to close my
account there.  I asked them - "if possible" - to put auto-forward for
my E-mail to my new E-mail address, which they did not do :-(

Fortunately my domain was (and is) hosted by a separate Web hosting
company, and I was in middle of switching all my acquaintances from my
Actcom E-mail address to my own domain's E-mail address.

The morale of this story:
Never use the same entity for your basic Internet connectivity, publicly
available E-mail address, domain registration and Web hosting.

  --- Omer


On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 10:08 +0200, Saba Moshe wrote:
> I have the opposite experience.
> 
> Being an Actcom customer for many years I was "absorbed"  by Bezeq
> Benleumi. Last year when Imy contract was going to end I wanted to
> negotiate a new one, I was on hold for 25 minutes! Also they never
> agreed to help me with my router without paying them an additional
> fee.
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Re: IPv6 support by ISPs - current status? (was: Re: Links and some info about "IPv6 in Linux" lecture in Herzelinux yesterday)

[sara fink]

As far as I know, none of the ISP provide ipv6 yet.

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Arie Skliarouk  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> What is the status of IPv6 in Israel? Does any of the ISP provide it? To
> ATM or ADSL customers?
>
> According to http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native there
> appears more and more IPv6 aware ISPs, but nothing in Israel.
>
> Should firewall builders start bother with filtering IPv6 traffic (
> http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/622)?
>
> --
> Arie
>
>

Re: IPv6 support by ISPs - current status? (was: Re: Links and some info about "IPv6 in Linux" lecture in Herzelinux yesterday)

[Arie Skliarouk]

Hi,

What is the status of IPv6 in Israel? Does any of the ISP provide it? To ATM
or ADSL customers?

According to http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native there appears
more and more IPv6 aware ISPs, but nothing in Israel.

Should firewall builders start bother with filtering IPv6 traffic (
http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/622)?

-- 
Arie

Re: ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

2008/11/9 Geoffrey S. Mendelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I don't know where you were, or where you were calling to, but often you
> can find free wifi by asking people if their neighbors have "the Internet"
> and asking them to let you use it.

I didn't have this option where I travelled last week. We were
travelling long distances and staying mostly in cabins in caravan
parks. All caravan parks seem to have learned that they can make lots
of money from providing WiFi access. The only place which was free (or
actually just included the WiFi in the price of the room) was the only
Hotel we stayed at, and even then we were limited to one device at a
time. (I was contemplating using JaikuSpot to route WiFi traffic
through the Nokia to the other Nokia and laptop but didn't have time
to play with it :).

I always was looking for unsecured WiFi spots but except for one in
some optometric shop (guessing from the SSID) in a mall I never found
any - they are all secure.

>
>>
>> Also - I see in almost any petrol station abroad warnings about not
>> using mobile phones in the station - due to danger of sparks from the
>> phone igniting fuel fumes (I've seen this happen in some YouTube
>> movies, not a nice sight). I can only guess that WiFi should be
>> discouraged just the same.
>
> I think it was Mythbusters that tested it and found that it was a myth,
> but that does not mean you should try it on your own.

Well - it's the law where the signs are posted. I suppose in Israel
it's OK because there are no signs.

>
> Here's a windows only link, but I expect you could find it somewhere else
> in a more compatible form:
>
>http://www.veoh.com/videos/v228529bsahSjBA
>
> Geoff.
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED]  N3OWJ/4X1GM
>

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Re: ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 09:15:24PM +1100, Amos Shapira wrote:



Thanks for the pointer. This could be useful though after a week away
from my "home 3G network" and being mostly dependent either on 3G
roaming (I'm still worried what the bill is going to be like) or
non-free WiFi, it might be a lesser solution (it didn't help that a
major family crisis overseas happened during that week which required
us to call abroad almost every day).


I don't know where you were, or where you were calling to, but often you
can find free wifi by asking people if their neighbors have "the Internet"
and asking them to let you use it.



Also - I see in almost any petrol station abroad warnings about not
using mobile phones in the station - due to danger of sparks from the
phone igniting fuel fumes (I've seen this happen in some YouTube
movies, not a nice sight). I can only guess that WiFi should be
discouraged just the same.


I think it was Mythbusters that tested it and found that it was a myth,
but that does not mean you should try it on your own.

Here's a windows only link, but I expect you could find it somewhere else
in a more compatible form:

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v228529bsahSjBA

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED]  N3OWJ/4X1GM

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Re: ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

2008/11/5 Imri Zvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> FYI,
> All the "Paz/Yellow" gas stations provide _free_ WIFI access.
>
> They have a decent coverage, especially in the center/Sharon area.
>
> http://www.paz.co.il/stations.asp

Thanks for the pointer. This could be useful though after a week away
from my "home 3G network" and being mostly dependent either on 3G
roaming (I'm still worried what the bill is going to be like) or
non-free WiFi, it might be a lesser solution (it didn't help that a
major family crisis overseas happened during that week which required
us to call abroad almost every day).

Also - I see in almost any petrol station abroad warnings about not
using mobile phones in the station - due to danger of sparks from the
phone igniting fuel fumes (I've seen this happen in some YouTube
movies, not a nice sight). I can only guess that WiFi should be
discouraged just the same.

Cheers,

--Amos

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IPv6 support by ISPs - current status? (was: Re: Links and some info about "IPv6 in Linux" lecture in Herzelinux yesterday)

[Omer Zak]

On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 01:14 +0200, Rami Rosen wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> As I promised, here are some links and some additional info about
> "IPv6 in Linux" lecture, which was given in Herzelinux yesterday
> (6.11.08) by me:
[... snipped ...]

Few subjects, which I understand were not covered by the lecture and
have great practical interest:

1. What is the status of IPv6 by your ISP, by your Web hosting service,
by your E-mail provider?
2. Is it feasible TODAY to switch all your home/office network and its
Internet connections to IPv6 and drop altogether any IPv4 use?  If not,
why?
3. What (if any) tunneling services are available if you want to access
IPv6-only resources in the open Internet?

-- 
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Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

I happen to disagree with you, but I won't enter into such a war.

2008/10/31 Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> 2008/10/29 sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > I am not against profit. But there is a limit to the greediness. To block
> > VOIP in cellular phones is evil.
>
> "Evil" is when they are hurting someone. Blocking VOIP does not hurt
> anyone.
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
> א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>
> ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
>

Re: ISPs

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/10/29 sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I am not against profit. But there is a limit to the greediness. To block
> VOIP in cellular phones is evil.

"Evil" is when they are hurting someone. Blocking VOIP does not hurt anyone.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> sara fink wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I will be more blunt. It's money issue. They want max profit.
>>
>>  You make it sound like it's a bad thing. Companies wanting to maximize
> their profit is what drives our economy.


I am not against profit. But there is a limit to the greediness. To block
VOIP in cellular phones is evil.

>
>
> The problem here is that they want to maximize their profits by hindering
> competition, which is both short sighted of them and (in some cases)
> illegal.


I agree. That's another story.

>
>
> Shachar
>

Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

>
> I think the same stupid rational happens here - they don't realise
> that by reducing prices they'll be able to address a much wider
> audience where the product ("lower price" x "more subscribers") is
> larger than ("higher price" x "less subscribers").


That's true. They use other dirty techniques as well. A quick search in
http://www.tluna.co.il will reveal some of the techniques they use.

>
>
> >
> > I found the article about the technology:
> > http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000381242&fid=3223
> >
> > The cellular companies even block voip in the cellular phones of dor
> 3/3.5.
>
> What does the regulator has to say about this?
> I think iPhone providers also block VoIP, at least in some countries.


I don't know what the regulator says about it, maybe he doesn't even know
about it. They may play dual games. To me, the representative of bussiness
dep from pelephone admited.

>
>
> > About prices, problems, see this:
> >
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ahaaretz.co.il+%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93%D7%9D+%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
>
> Hmpfff... well. Hope things will get better next year, what else can I say?


Sad, as long there will be a lot of people who will pay and fell as easy
prey, the situation won't change.



>
>
> --Amos
>
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>
>

Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

> Actually, I'm a very happy Cellcom users. Enough so that in the first time
> since the previous century I actually disconnected the Internet connection
> to my home, since the cellular one works so nicely and is cheap, in my eyes.
>

how much you pay?

>
>
> And they don't really block VoIP -, it just that you can a none symmetric
> NAT address which makes it difficult to use most VoIP services. Maybe it's
> done for tech. reason or maybe for business reasons. I don't know.
>

I believe it's business reason. Blockage of voip is done in dor3 phones. If
you manage to hack it, then you can connect and use voip, but as soon as you
are out of range, you fell back to gprs and there you pay and don't even
notice.


>
>

Re: ISPs

[Gilad Ben-Yossef]

Hi,


sara fink wrote:



3. How much is "not cheap" about Orange/Cellcom? Do they provide
pre-paid data plans? So far I couldn't find such an offer through
Orange's or Cellcom's web sites (at least they manage to display
something on Debian/Firefox).


Orange/cellcom is crap. You share the speed with others. Don't know 
about prices, you will have to call them. But I read a technical 
article about it ~1 month ago. I think it was in globes or the marker 
about the technology.


Actually, I'm a very happy Cellcom users. Enough so that in the first 
time since the previous century I actually disconnected the Internet 
connection to my home, since the cellular one works so nicely and is 
cheap, in my eyes.


And they don't really block VoIP -, it just that you can a none 
symmetric NAT address which makes it difficult to use most VoIP 
services. Maybe it's done for tech. reason or maybe for business 
reasons. I don't know.


I don't know of a fixed cost deal, but the deal I'm on includes a lump 
sum payment for a big enough bandwidth quota that I don't go over.


It's not my main Internet link (that would be the office), but for a 
secondary/mobile link it's great


And no, I don't own any Cellcom stocks any more... :-)

Gilad



--
Gilad Ben-Yossef 
Chief Coffee Drinker


Codefidence Ltd.
The code is free, your time isn't.(TM)

Web:http://codefidence.com
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201
Fax:+972-8-9316885
Mobile: +972-52-8260388

	The Doctor: Don't worry, Reinette, just a nightmare. 
	Everyone has nightmares. Even monsters from under the 
	bed have nightmares, don't you, monster?

Reinette: What do monsters have nightmares about?
	The Doctor: Me! 

Re: ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

2008/10/30 sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I will be more blunt. It's money issue. They want max profit.

I'm not a business genius but I just remember what a tiny company
Pelephone were when they were the only game in town and were
addressing the top percentile of population until Cellcom came, kicked
their butt and expanded the market a hundred-fold.

I think the same stupid rational happens here - they don't realise
that by reducing prices they'll be able to address a much wider
audience where the product ("lower price" x "more subscribers") is
larger than ("higher price" x "less subscribers").

>
> I found the article about the technology:
> http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000381242&fid=3223
>
> The cellular companies even block voip in the cellular phones of dor 3/3.5.

What does the regulator has to say about this?
I think iPhone providers also block VoIP, at least in some countries.

> About prices, problems, see this:
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ahaaretz.co.il+%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93%D7%9D+%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Hmpfff... well. Hope things will get better next year, what else can I say?

--Amos

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Re: ISPs

[Shachar Shemesh]

sara fink wrote:



I will be more blunt. It's money issue. They want max profit.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. Companies wanting to maximize 
their profit is what drives our economy.


The problem here is that they want to maximize their profits by 
hindering competition, which is both short sighted of them and (in some 
cases) illegal.


Shachar

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Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

>
>
> > Orange/cellcom is crap. You share the speed with others. Don't know about
> > prices, you will have to call them. But I read a technical article about
> it
> > ~1 month ago. I think it was in globes or the marker about the
> technology.
>
> Thanks. That's a shame. Weird that a country which has IT as its main
> "economy engines" is so backwards in terms of mobile broadband
> infrastructure (though it goes hand in hand with the backwards web
> scene)...


I will be more blunt. It's money issue. They want max profit.

I found the article about the technology:
http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000381242&fid=3223

The cellular companies even block voip in the cellular phones of dor 3/3.5.
And they are not ashamed to admit it. I talked once with a representative of
bussiness department of Pelephone. As if they don't earn enough money.

About prices, problems, see this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ahaaretz.co.il+%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93%D7%9D+%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

>
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Amos
>
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>
>

Re: ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

2008/10/30 sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> There are some web sites that provide information where wifi free hotspots
> can be found per country/city.
> http://compnetworking.about.com/od/wireless/tp/wifihotspotfind.htm

Thanks for the pointer.

> Orange/cellcom is crap. You share the speed with others. Don't know about
> prices, you will have to call them. But I read a technical article about it
> ~1 month ago. I think it was in globes or the marker about the technology.

Thanks. That's a shame. Weird that a country which has IT as its main
"economy engines" is so backwards in terms of mobile broadband
infrastructure (though it goes hand in hand with the backwards web
scene)...

Cheers,

--Amos

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Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Amos Shapira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> 2008/10/29 sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Why not use free hotspots? Orange and cellcom are not so cheap.  In
> Haifa,
> > Jerusalem there are free hotspots. I saw on TV about bzeek. See this link
> > http://www.bzeek.com/ Looks promissing, but I didn't check it.
>
> 1. Would these free hotspots be avaiable outside the major CBD's?
> Would they enable access to the net, for instance, while being on the
> way to friends in some Moshav outside Natanya (so the user can verify
> an address on GMail or check  directions on Google Maps)?


There are wifi on the way. He will have to use kismet or iwlist to scan and
detect free wifi. But he will need to stop his travel in order to connect.

There are some web sites that provide information where wifi free hotspots
can be found per country/city.
http://compnetworking.about.com/od/wireless/tp/wifihotspotfind.htm


>
> 2. BZeek seems like a way to provide hotspots to others once you have
> some uplink connection - what do I miss here? You still need some way
> to connect to the net. Plus their download requires Windows (blah...).
>

>
> 3. How much is "not cheap" about Orange/Cellcom? Do they provide
> pre-paid data plans? So far I couldn't find such an offer through
> Orange's or Cellcom's web sites (at least they manage to display
> something on Debian/Firefox).


Orange/cellcom is crap. You share the speed with others. Don't know about
prices, you will have to call them. But I read a technical article about it
~1 month ago. I think it was in globes or the marker about the technology.

Re: ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

2008/10/29 sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Why not use free hotspots? Orange and cellcom are not so cheap.  In Haifa,
> Jerusalem there are free hotspots. I saw on TV about bzeek. See this link
> http://www.bzeek.com/ Looks promissing, but I didn't check it.

1. Would these free hotspots be avaiable outside the major CBD's?
Would they enable access to the net, for instance, while being on the
way to friends in some Moshav outside Natanya (so the user can verify
an address on GMail or check  directions on Google Maps)?

2. BZeek seems like a way to provide hotspots to others once you have
some uplink connection - what do I miss here? You still need some way
to connect to the net. Plus their download requires Windows (blah...).

3. How much is "not cheap" about Orange/Cellcom? Do they provide
pre-paid data plans? So far I couldn't find such an offer through
Orange's or Cellcom's web sites (at least they manage to display
something on Debian/Firefox).

Thanks,

--Amos

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Re: ISPs

[Ori Idan]

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:12 AM, sara fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Why not use free hotspots? Orange and cellcom are not so cheap.  In Haifa,
> Jerusalem there are free hotspots. I saw on TV about bzeek. See this link
> http://www.bzeek.com/ Looks promissing, but I didn't check it.
>

bzeek seems a nice idea.
Does anyone have any idea how to do similar thing with a Linux laptop?

-- 
Ori Idan


>
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Amos Shapira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> 2008/10/29 Geoffrey S. Mendelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> > Orange and Cell-Com both have good performance for their cellular USB
>> > modems. Orange is cheaper but capped at 5g per month.
>>
>> Seizing on this opportunity to ask this - does any mobile provider in
>> Israel offer pre-paid data service worth its costs?
>> I'm asking for someone who'll visit Israel with a 3G phone for a month
>> and doesn't want to commit for a service beyond that period (to save
>> money).
>> Service/hardware which can work with a Linux laptop would be a huge
>> bonus, of course.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Amos
>>
>> =
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>> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
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>>
>>
>


-- 
ספרים וסיפורים שכתבתי: http://www.thestories.org

Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

Why not use free hotspots? Orange and cellcom are not so cheap.  In Haifa,
Jerusalem there are free hotspots. I saw on TV about bzeek. See this link
http://www.bzeek.com/ Looks promissing, but I didn't check it.

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Amos Shapira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> 2008/10/29 Geoffrey S. Mendelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Orange and Cell-Com both have good performance for their cellular USB
> > modems. Orange is cheaper but capped at 5g per month.
>
> Seizing on this opportunity to ask this - does any mobile provider in
> Israel offer pre-paid data service worth its costs?
> I'm asking for someone who'll visit Israel with a 3G phone for a month
> and doesn't want to commit for a service beyond that period (to save
> money).
> Service/hardware which can work with a Linux laptop would be a huge
> bonus, of course.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Amos
>
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
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>
>

Re: ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

2008/10/29 Geoffrey S. Mendelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Orange and Cell-Com both have good performance for their cellular USB
> modems. Orange is cheaper but capped at 5g per month.

Seizing on this opportunity to ask this - does any mobile provider in
Israel offer pre-paid data service worth its costs?
I'm asking for someone who'll visit Israel with a 3G phone for a month
and doesn't want to commit for a service beyond that period (to save
money).
Service/hardware which can work with a Linux laptop would be a huge
bonus, of course.

Thanks,

--Amos

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Re: ISPs

[sara fink]

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Geoff Shang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've only been in Israel for 18 months.  My wife and I once again find
> ourselves in the market for an ISP.
>
> I work in Internet radio and have to have decent throughput to the US on
> non-standard ports.  012 and Bezeqint Standard seem to prioritise standard
> ports and cripple others, 012 extremely so (FTP and MP3 streaming on ports
> 8550 and 9550 were basically useless).


How do you know they prioritize? What tests you did?

>
>
> We're just trying Netvision and all seems fine except FtP downloading is
> painfully slow (passive mode makes no difference) and FTP uploading is not
> what it should be.
>
> We've not tried Barak yet (even though Netvision and Barak have merged,
> they seem to still use different infrastructure).
>
> The only service we've found to be constantly good is Bezeqint's Gamer's
> package which we feel is too expensive.  It's our feeling that Bezeq cripple
> their regular package so that those who are serious about net access have to
> pay more to get it.
>
> Are there any other ISPs?  Our Bezeq contract is up on Thursday so this is
> a bit urgent.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
> =
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>

Re: ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:18:48PM +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
We're just trying Netvision and all seems fine except FtP downloading is 
painfully slow (passive mode makes no difference) and FTP uploading is not 
what it should be.


It's not due to anything Netvision does. I get full upload speed and
full download speed. I have a 5m down/256k up connection from HOT's
"business office". 


Of course 256k up is fairly easy to saturate. Downloads vary wildly
from site to site. 


I have even gotten combined downloads of over 400k bytes per second on
bit torrent, but usually have it limited to 300k down / 5k up so that 
I don't get lynched by the rest of my family who wants to use the
Internet. 

We've not tried Barak yet (even though Netvision and Barak have merged, 
they seem to still use different infrastructure).


I have not seen that at all. Sometimes I am connected via a Netvision
IP and sometimes via a Barak one. I had a problem with my VoIP box
dropping connection, and restarted my pptp session often for a while.

It turned out to be a bug in the Linux system I use for a router,
and nothing Netvision did.

The first day or so after the merger they combined DNS servers, but I
actually don't use them.


Are there any other ISPs?  Our Bezeq contract is up on Thursday so this is 
a bit urgent.


BYNET. I understand they have a "home" division www.qos.co.il.

Orange and Cell-Com both have good performance for their cellular USB
modems. Orange is cheaper but capped at 5g per month. 


Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED]  N3OWJ/4X1GM

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Re: ISPs

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/10/28 Geoff Shang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi,
>
> I've only been in Israel for 18 months.  My wife and I once again find
> ourselves in the market for an ISP.
>
> I work in Internet radio and have to have decent throughput to the US on
> non-standard ports.  012 and Bezeqint Standard seem to prioritise standard
> ports and cripple others, 012 extremely so (FTP and MP3 streaming on ports
> 8550 and 9550 were basically useless).
>
> We're just trying Netvision and all seems fine except FtP downloading is
> painfully slow (passive mode makes no difference) and FTP uploading is not
> what it should be.
>
> We've not tried Barak yet (even though Netvision and Barak have merged, they
> seem to still use different infrastructure).
>
> The only service we've found to be constantly good is Bezeqint's Gamer's
> package which we feel is too expensive.  It's our feeling that Bezeq cripple
> their regular package so that those who are serious about net access have to
> pay more to get it.
>
> Are there any other ISPs?  Our Bezeq contract is up on Thursday so this is a
> bit urgent.
>
> Geoff.
>

There was a great ISP called Actcom until last year when Bezeq
purchased it. Talk to Bezeq and see if you can get the level of
support that us ex-Actcom customers get. I doubt that there is
officially any difference, but I whenever I get an idiot
script-reading support girl, I simply mention Actcom and the call is
diverted to Alex or another ex-Actcom superhero.

As for your ports usage, if you are a jerk about it you can get your
way. Let's just say that I am paying 39 or 49 NIS per month (I forgot
which) and I have a static IP address. It's all possible so long as
you play the nice-guy rude-guy routine with them. The only problem is
that you can only do that after you are already a customer.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

ISPs

[Geoff Shang]

Hi,

I've only been in Israel for 18 months.  My wife and I once again find 
ourselves in the market for an ISP.


I work in Internet radio and have to 
have decent throughput to the US on non-standard ports.  012 and Bezeqint 
Standard seem to prioritise standard ports and cripple others, 012 
extremely so (FTP and MP3 streaming on ports 8550 and 9550 were basically 
useless).


We're just trying Netvision and all seems fine except FtP downloading is 
painfully slow (passive mode makes no difference) and FTP uploading is not 
what it should be.


We've not tried Barak yet (even though Netvision and Barak have merged, 
they seem to still use different infrastructure).


The only service we've found to be constantly good is Bezeqint's Gamer's 
package which we feel is too expensive.  It's our feeling that Bezeq 
cripple their regular package so that those who are serious about net 
access have to pay more to get it.


Are there any other ISPs?  Our Bezeq contract is up on Thursday so this is 
a bit urgent.


Geoff.


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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Schneidman Danny]

Oded Arbel wrote:


[This is not really a reply to the previous message - I just wanted to
keep the thread id]

Update on Actcom status, specifically the tech support issue.

I had to call Actcom tech support yesterday, complaining that my DSL
connection doesn't work, eventually I found out that the issue was a
hardware problem on my side (my girlfriend rewired the router
incorrectly, connecting the internet port to an unused cable), but I
didn't found it until after I finished with the support person.

After he couldn't get my router to work by having me trying different
settings, the support guy asked me to connect my computer directly to
the modem - at which point he found out that I use a Linux desktop.
Except for a couple of "ahmm.."s, a query about my choice of
distribution and a recommendation to use Ubuntu, the support guy didn't
seem fazed by my use of Linux. After setting up my Fedora 7 to dial up
to DSL (which was a simple wizard I needed no help with) everything
worked, at which point point the support guy asked for some specific
details to document the incident (operating system type and version,
router model and modem model).

I didn't get specific help for Linux, mostly as I didn't need any, but
the tech support didn't seem to have an issue with me using Linux, and
seemed versed on the subject - at all times he was professional and
helpful - which I can't really say about most tech support calls I've
done over the years, but it was exactly the type of service I was used
to getting under Actcom. I think I recall the guy's name from when I
called tech support before Actcom was bought - so he might be from the
original Actcom tech support team (I didn't ask).
  

It could not be the original support, cause its gone.
Most of services moved to PT, and support team ( as well as sales, 
custserv etc ... ) are no longer there ( Haifa ),  except one guy at 
night which does not get phone calls from customers, but from Bezeqint's 
supporters who needs help with "Actcom" users and interfaces.


They present themselves as Actcom, probably not to confuse customers, 
but some of them even cant pronounce the name correctly ( actom, actcome 
.. ).


Anyway, its nice to hear that there are supporters at Bezeqint that will 
not fall from the chair when they will hear the /word/ Linux.


10x,
Danny

To sum, the tech support still operates behind Actcom's toll free number
(which AFAIK is the only toll free internet support line in Israel), and
still seems clueful about Linux. I don't know about the commercial side
(my current contract expires on August, after which I'll be able to
comment on the issue), but from the support side I have no complaints,
and if the sales department don't mess up my contract renewal I will
remain a customer of Actcom/Bezeq Beinleumi.

  

Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Herouth Maoz]

Quoting Oded Arbel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> To sum, the tech support still operates behind Actcom's toll free number
> (which AFAIK is the only toll free internet support line in Israel), and
> still seems clueful about Linux. I don't know about the commercial side
> (my current contract expires on August, after which I'll be able to
> comment on the issue), but from the support side I have no complaints,
> and if the sales department don't mess up my contract renewal I will
> remain a customer of Actcom/Bezeq Beinleumi.

I got a message from Bezeq Intl. when I sent a message here at linux-il about
this issue. In that message (which for some reason came from the Abuse team)
they said that they have Linux support, although it may not be online.

Herouth

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Oded Arbel]

[This is not really a reply to the previous message - I just wanted to
keep the thread id]

Update on Actcom status, specifically the tech support issue.

I had to call Actcom tech support yesterday, complaining that my DSL
connection doesn't work, eventually I found out that the issue was a
hardware problem on my side (my girlfriend rewired the router
incorrectly, connecting the internet port to an unused cable), but I
didn't found it until after I finished with the support person.

After he couldn't get my router to work by having me trying different
settings, the support guy asked me to connect my computer directly to
the modem - at which point he found out that I use a Linux desktop.
Except for a couple of "ahmm.."s, a query about my choice of
distribution and a recommendation to use Ubuntu, the support guy didn't
seem fazed by my use of Linux. After setting up my Fedora 7 to dial up
to DSL (which was a simple wizard I needed no help with) everything
worked, at which point point the support guy asked for some specific
details to document the incident (operating system type and version,
router model and modem model).

I didn't get specific help for Linux, mostly as I didn't need any, but
the tech support didn't seem to have an issue with me using Linux, and
seemed versed on the subject - at all times he was professional and
helpful - which I can't really say about most tech support calls I've
done over the years, but it was exactly the type of service I was used
to getting under Actcom. I think I recall the guy's name from when I
called tech support before Actcom was bought - so he might be from the
original Actcom tech support team (I didn't ask).

To sum, the tech support still operates behind Actcom's toll free number
(which AFAIK is the only toll free internet support line in Israel), and
still seems clueful about Linux. I don't know about the commercial side
(my current contract expires on August, after which I'll be able to
comment on the issue), but from the support side I have no complaints,
and if the sales department don't mess up my contract renewal I will
remain a customer of Actcom/Bezeq Beinleumi.

-- 

Oded


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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 03:34:02PM +0300, David Smith wrote:

> (...) perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility -
> a community ISP.

I like the idea; I wouldn't actively participate myself because I
don't live in Israel, but if it is n00b-friendly enough, I'd push my
family to it :-)

> One business model would be to function as a cooperative (...). The
> open source development concepts could also be implemented (...)

> Does anybody know of an existing project elsewhere of a similar
> nature ?

I've had a chat or two with some people from French Data Networks
(http://www.fdn.fr/). They started such activities back when it was
easy (Internet access meant dial-up) and then recently stepped up to
ADSL. They have said multiple times they'd be happy to help a similar
organisation get started, but the areas where they can help are not
the hardest ones. Roughly, if you need someone to teach you BGP,
they'll do it. But they can't negotiate a contract with Bezeq for
access to the "last mile" copper loop for you.

 - they are not a cooperative, but a "no-profit association".

 - size: barely more than 100 members

 - they are *significantly* more expensive than cheapest commercial
   ADSL

 - roughly, they managed to get an acceptable contract for ADSL-ATM
   *only* because a prominent member works for their upstream ADSL-ATM
   provider. Not because he pulled any "favours", but because he knew
   which salesperson to bug to get things going, things like that.

 - main cost: ADSL-ATM. It costs more than IP transit to the other end
   of the world.

I know (personally or through fame) people who have tried to do
something similar in the Netherlands:

 - either they started a long time ago (back when easy because
   dialup), went commercial, became huge because/or were bought out by
   a big telco company.

   (The story of XS4ALL is a nice one there... Started as a hacker's
   club that understood they would get kicked out from every ISP if
   they were not their own ISP, grew to commercial provider, got
   bought out by incumbent telco but under an agreement that
   guarantees their independence (the *first* thing they did as newly
   acquired daughter company is sue their parent to refuse to send
   them customer marketing data!). Somewhere along the way they became
   the *biggest* ISP in the Netherlands.)

 - or the best offers they got had clauses like "must connect 200 new
   phone subscribers every year, or big financial penalties". So
   totally unacceptable, and never started.



 You hav

> 
> David
> 
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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Micha Silver]

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:


On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 09:34:17AM +0300, Mike Tewner wrote:

  

ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order
of a few hundred customers.



But not in Israel. Things are much different here. 


Geoff.
  


It's done in Israel also:


We at the Arava Development Co. offer internet access, mail with spam 
and virus filtering, personal home pages (and we also maintain the arava 
website) for about 450 subscribers. While we don't have any official 
support people for Linux users we are quite sympathetic to using and 
distributing FOSS, and we'll do whatever we can to help users get 
connected with free OS's. (Some of our subscribers use various Linux 
distros). Our servers run CentOS, and much of the network management 
software I use is FOSS.

We'll welcome any disenchanted ex-Actcom customers to join us.


I'd be willing to approach our upstream Internet access provider about 
promising support for Linux users if the demand should arise, including 
the suggestion for "community based support" as mentioned earlier in 
this thread.


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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:36:02AM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> >From my dealings with my ISP, using HOT's cable, I understand that they have
> very close (although not quite perfect, to say the least) connections to HOT
> and need to transfer configuration files, and need their help to debug some
> of the connection problems. In fact, when I have a problem, I usually call
> HOT directly, not my ISP! What would it have helped me if my ISP was full
> of Linux experts, if I end up calling HOT anyway? This situation is a far-cry
> from the situation in the modem days, where your ISP could rely on your
> phone "just working", and didn't need to cooperate with Bezek about
> "configuring your phone".

A big difference is that HOT has a different hardware set up. HOT modems use
a system similar to token ring, and have full diagnostic capabilities. The one
time I actually had a problem with my cable modem I called for support (I
have a "business class" connection) and the support rep was able to connect
to my modem and found it was in standby mode. 

I had meant to reset it and  found out that the front panel button put it
in standby, but did not reset it. 

BEZEQ does not have that level of support. While expect the PAD's (packet
assembler/dissambler's) that they sell as modems have that capability,
the average customer support rep is trained to use the diagnostic capability
built into Windows (whatever that is). 

Bear in mind that as far a BEZEQ is concerned, you are using ATM over a 
switched network. If the ATM packets get from point A (your PAD) to point
B (your ISP), their work is done. ATM does not support error checking or
recovery, it was designed for voice, where latency is far more important
than quality and consistency. 

As far as buying a connection and reselling it, BEZEQ will sell you high 
speed serial connection that is the agregate of all the ATM packets for your
customers. It's normally used for companies that have large numbers of home
connections, but don't want to deal with an ISP. 

As for remarketing Internet access, from what I understand that any sale
of Internet access requires an ISP license. Places that provide free
Wifi access don't seem to need a license, but due to Israeli
regulations, they are very short range. Since EIRP is limited to 100mw,
gain antennas, etc are illegal.

Geoff. 

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Nadav Har'El]

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007, Mike Tewner wrote about "Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of 
Israeli ISPs":
> My point is that the whole operation was one room - those 2 racks and 3
> desks covering phone support and sys admins.
> 
> ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order
> of a few hundred customers.

Things were simpler in the age of modems. Want to run an ISP for 3 people?
Just get 3 phone lines and 3 modems, a connection to a bigger ISP, and you're
done.

But today, nobody would want to call your ISP using a modem - they would want
to use ADSL and/or cable to connect to you. This brings up two serious problem:

First, because of how this technology works Bezek/HOT need to recognize you.
I have a hunch that they wouldn't, unless you can bring big business and show
a license from the goverment - not something you can do for 10 friends.

Your second problem is that much of the service no longer depends on you -
in the old days, everybody had a phone and nobody would blame their ISP if
their phone stopped working (and besides, it wouldn't happen) or their phone
socket was improperly installed. But today, you need to deal with ADSL/Cable
hardware, "routers", "dialers", "MTU" and a whole lot of issues that are
actually imposed, caused and dealt with, by HOT or Bezek - not by the ISP.

>From my dealings with my ISP, using HOT's cable, I understand that they have
very close (although not quite perfect, to say the least) connections to HOT
and need to transfer configuration files, and need their help to debug some
of the connection problems. In fact, when I have a problem, I usually call
HOT directly, not my ISP! What would it have helped me if my ISP was full
of Linux experts, if I end up calling HOT anyway? This situation is a far-cry
from the situation in the modem days, where your ISP could rely on your
phone "just working", and didn't need to cooperate with Bezek about
"configuring your phone".

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 09:34:17AM +0300, Mike Tewner wrote:

> ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order
> of a few hundred customers.

But not in Israel. Things are much different here. 

Geoff.
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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Mike Tewner]

In the US, I worked for a local computer store - it basically had all the
Jewish Community's business -

Anyway, one room of the store was an ISP - It was 2 racks - one for servers,
the other for network.
Server rack had COTS desktops running BSD (I think) - 2 * (mail, DNS,
RADIUS,News) servers
It was dial-up internet, so he had (I guess) a leased line from a telephone
bank off-site.

My point is that the whole operation was one room - those 2 racks and 3
desks covering phone support and sys admins.

ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order
of a few hundred customers.



On 7/9/07, Amos Shapira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 09/07/07, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01:50PM +0300, David Smith wrote:
> > If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the
> > following infrastructure would be needed:
> >
> > A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX.
> > A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing
> > Optional: a dedicated hardware router
> > An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot.
>
> You forgot an ISP license from whatever ministry issues them.
>
> This requires a lot of money. The cheapest way to do it is to buy
> an existing licensed ISP. That's how BEZEQ BENLUMI did it, they bought
> ISDNNET which got their license by buying a previous ISP.
>
> I know Orange was refused a license, I don't know how they eventually
> got one.


I didn't quite follow the entire discussion from top to bottom, but is
there an option to become a reseller?

That way you get the basic infrastructure from an approved ISP but create
your own brand and support lines.

Not sure it makes sense, especially in the Israeli context, but apparently
it's common in other parts of the world.

--Amos

Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Amos Shapira]

On 09/07/07, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01:50PM +0300, David Smith wrote:
> If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the
> following infrastructure would be needed:
>
> A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX.
> A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing
> Optional: a dedicated hardware router
> An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot.

You forgot an ISP license from whatever ministry issues them.

This requires a lot of money. The cheapest way to do it is to buy
an existing licensed ISP. That's how BEZEQ BENLUMI did it, they bought
ISDNNET which got their license by buying a previous ISP.

I know Orange was refused a license, I don't know how they eventually
got one.



I didn't quite follow the entire discussion from top to bottom, but is there
an option to become a reseller?

That way you get the basic infrastructure from an approved ISP but create
your own brand and support lines.

Not sure it makes sense, especially in the Israeli context, but apparently
it's common in other parts of the world.

--Amos

Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01:50PM +0300, David Smith wrote:
> If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the
> following infrastructure would be needed:
> 
> A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX.
> A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing
> Optional: a dedicated hardware router
> An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot.

You forgot an ISP license from whatever ministry issues them. 

This requires a lot of money. The cheapest way to do it is to buy
an existing licensed ISP. That's how BEZEQ BENLUMI did it, they bought
ISDNNET which got their license by buying a previous ISP. 

I know Orange was refused a license, I don't know how they eventually
got one.

Geoff
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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[David Smith]

A Linux shop does exist. A few months ago a couple of guys opened one
in Jerusalem:

http://rootpcs.com


If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the
following infrastructure would be needed:

A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX.
A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing
Optional: a dedicated hardware router
An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot.

In addition to this you would need the manpower and business side. From
what I have understood, the expensive part of running an ISP is the
support part. In theory a non-profit cooperative with well-educated
(Linux) users should be much cheaper to run, which might perhaps
compensate for the small size, as well as being less complex to manage.

What I look for in an ISP is for them to be invisible. Once a year to
pay them, and other than that to ignore them and for my connection to
'just work'. I am sure that I am not alone with these sentiments.

I invite all those who might be interested in such an idea (even if just
as a customer and not being involved) to send me an off-list 'vote'.

I fail to see why I should pay good money to companies who I have to
fight with to convince them that they are to blame when my connection
falls.

David

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Re: Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

"Ori Idan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid
> for supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with
> Linux.

If you are willing to pay, consider business grade support. Along with
a few of my colleagues on this list I have had business grade support
via my employer for the last several years, with two big ISPs that
don't enjoy a stellar reputation on this list. In my experience, the
support was quite good and on no occasion the support person ever
blinked when I said, "Linux".

FWIW, when I contacted Actcom a few years ago about an ADSL account
they demanded to know whether I intended to connect more than one
computer. When I told them they would never know if I connected a
router with NAT they demanded business rate from me. Had I chosen
them (I didn't) I would have been paying business rate anyway...

I don't miss Actcom at all...

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.goldshmidt.org

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Nadav Har'El]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote about "Re: [SUMMARY] Current 
status of Israeli ISPs":
> > My dream is somewhat differet. My dream is that there would be a Linux-
> > friendly computer shop, where I could come in, and every computer would
> > come (if you want) pre-installed with Linux and they would only sell
> > equipment that works with Linux (or your money back guaranteed). The same
> > shop could also sell you ISP deals, and the shop will set up the needed
> > DHCP/PPPoE/whatever software for you.
> 
>...
> People simply are not going to come to you for their Linux systems
> if they ALSO need to buy Windows systems from someone else.
> Honestly, how many people on this list are able to say that
> they and all of their immediate family members and all of
> the people who work for the same (company/organization) 
> NEVER use Windows. 

I didn't say that this would have to be a Linux-only shop, but rather that
it would be a shop that concentrated on hardware that worked properly on
Linux (but obviously also works on Windows). How many times have you walked
into a computer store, looking to buy a mouse, printer, scanner, modem,
soundcard, or camera, and asked the store owner "will this work on Linux"
and got a reply "I have no idea" or even just "no" (this is known as CYA [1])?
It happened to me, with all the above equipment. And I'm sick of it.
It's even worse when you buy an entirely new computer, and need to start
worrying whether each of is 10 components will work on Linux or not.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_your_ass

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Herouth Maoz]

Quoting Ori Idan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I guess that what bothers is the Linux support from the ISP.
> It would be easier to take the guides we have today, update them and
> redistribute it.
> Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for
> supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux.
>

That's no solution, as it cannot replace a person who sits at the ISP and can
actually see whether packets arrive from the computer, whether there is a DHCP
lease for a particular address, whether user  is logged on or not.

Herouth

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 05:18:55PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> This idea might just work. With a bit of asterisk wizardry, you can run
> such a support business from your bedroom, or operated by students on their
> free time. Reminds me of Thomas Friedman's story in "The World is Flat",
> about JetBlue. Apparently, JetBlue's whole reservation-by-phone system
> is run by housewives and retirees from Salt Lake City, which answer the
> phones at their own home.

It's not a new idea, I know someone who was a telephone psychic in the
mid 1990's who did the same thing. I'm not even sure there is much
difference between the two jobs.
 
> My dream is somewhat differet. My dream is that there would be a Linux-
> friendly computer shop, where I could come in, and every computer would
> come (if you want) pre-installed with Linux and they would only sell
> equipment that works with Linux (or your money back guaranteed). The same
> shop could also sell you ISP deals, and the shop will set up the needed
> DHCP/PPPoE/whatever software for you.

I'm sorry but that would IMHO never work. A Linux/FOSS department
in a larger store could as it would add another item to "one
stop shopping".  

People simply are not going to come to you for their Linux systems
if they ALSO need to buy Windows systems from someone else.

Honestly, how many people on this list are able to say that
they and all of their immediate family members and all of
the people who work for the same (company/organization) 
NEVER use Windows. 

Geoff.

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 04:47:06PM +0300, Ori Idan wrote:

> Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for
> supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux.

This to me makes no sense at all. For less than the cost of round trip
bus fare per month, BEZEQ will install a router and support it for you.

How low a price can you charge to make it worthwhile? 

Geoff. 
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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Omer Zak]

Given that the main function of Actcom during the last few years was to
buy bandwidth from Bezeq Beinleumi and resell it to its customers,
adding improved support to the package - Ori's suggestion makes the most
sense.

The following could be done to implement the idea:
1. Collaborate with one (or more) of the ISPs to develop an offer of
better quality support in exchange for surcharge.
2. Recruit Actcom's former employees to provide the extra support -
number of supporters and coverage to depend upon demand for the better
quality support.

The support group should be reachable by regular phone, Skype, E-mail,
Web form, SMS, and FAX - and provide 24/7 coverage.

The support group should be empowered to work with HOT and Bezeq as
necessary to resolve problems on their part of the network.

Some way needs to be worked out to provide first-level support (for
clueless people, who nevertheless paid the surcharge, and who call
support to find that they forgot to flip the ON/OFF switch).

ISPs and Bezeq usually require the user to tell them the MS-Windows
error messages - the support group should amass the know-how to
determine the MS-Windows error messages corresponding to the information
in logfiles built in Linux, Mac OSX, etc.

   --- Omer

On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 16:47 +0300, Ori Idan wrote:
> I guess that what bothers is the Linux support from the ISP.
> It would be easier to take the guides we have today, update them and
> redistribute it.
> Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for
> supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with
> Linux. 
> 
> -- 
> Ori Idan
> 
> 
> On 7/8/07, Nadav Har'El <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, David Smith wrote about "Re: [SUMMARY]
> Current status of Israeli ISPs":
> > Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been
> chewed up by
> > a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an
> alternative 
> > possibility - a community ISP.

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Nadav Har'El]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, Ori Idan wrote about "Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of 
Israeli ISPs":
> Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for
> supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux.

This idea might just work. With a bit of asterisk wizardry, you can run
such a support business from your bedroom, or operated by students on their
free time. Reminds me of Thomas Friedman's story in "The World is Flat",
about JetBlue. Apparently, JetBlue's whole reservation-by-phone system
is run by housewives and retirees from Salt Lake City, which answer the
phones at their own home.

My dream is somewhat differet. My dream is that there would be a Linux-
friendly computer shop, where I could come in, and every computer would
come (if you want) pre-installed with Linux and they would only sell
equipment that works with Linux (or your money back guaranteed). The same
shop could also sell you ISP deals, and the shop will set up the needed
DHCP/PPPoE/whatever software for you.

But as they say, Martin Luther King said "I have a dream", not "I have a plan".

-- 
Nadav Har'El|  Sunday, Jul  8 2007, 22 Tammuz 5767
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |"90% of the politicians give the other

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Ori Idan]

I guess that what bothers is the Linux support from the ISP.
It would be easier to take the guides we have today, update them and
redistribute it.
Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for
supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux.

--
Ori Idan


On 7/8/07, Nadav Har'El <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, David Smith wrote about "Re: [SUMMARY] Current
status of Israeli ISPs":
> Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by
> a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative
> possibility - a community ISP.
>
> One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the
> shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source
>...
> Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to
> be viable?

If by "ISP" you mean something like the big ISPs in Israel (Netvision,
012,
etc.), with hundreds of thousands of clients and hundreds of employees,
then
you'll need major investments and a lot management overhead, so this will
be
very hard (but not impossible) to pull off.

Instead of thinking big, why not think small?

If what bothers you is the home connection side of the ISP business, then
how about getting a few neighbors together, buying one connection, and
splitting it together (doing the technical work yourself, without favors
from the ISP)?

If what bothers you is the hosting side of the ISP business, why don't you
get together with several other people, buy one machine (or several
machines)
and host it in an existing ISP, and manage the machine together (again,
without needing help from the ISP)?

--
Nadav Har'El|  Sunday, Jul  8 2007, 22 Tammuz
5767
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Always borrow money from pessimists.
They
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |don't expect to be paid back.

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Nadav Har'El]

On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, David Smith wrote about "Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of 
Israeli ISPs":
> Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by
> a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative
> possibility - a community ISP.
> 
> One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the
> shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source
>...
> Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to
> be viable?

If by "ISP" you mean something like the big ISPs in Israel (Netvision, 012,
etc.), with hundreds of thousands of clients and hundreds of employees, then
you'll need major investments and a lot management overhead, so this will be
very hard (but not impossible) to pull off.

Instead of thinking big, why not think small?

If what bothers you is the home connection side of the ISP business, then
how about getting a few neighbors together, buying one connection, and
splitting it together (doing the technical work yourself, without favors
from the ISP)?

If what bothers you is the hosting side of the ISP business, why don't you
get together with several other people, buy one machine (or several machines)
and host it in an existing ISP, and manage the machine together (again,
without needing help from the ISP)?

-- 
Nadav Har'El|  Sunday, Jul  8 2007, 22 Tammuz 5767
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Always borrow money from pessimists. They
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |don't expect to be paid back.

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Hetz Ben Hamo]

Hi,

Starting an ISP costs quite a lot.

You'll need to purchase servers, lots and lots of bandwidth, hire
support staff, sales, administrative etc. Although servers are 1 time
payment, the other stuff costs a lot, monthly, specially for the
bandwidth here in Israel.

Thanks,
Hetz

On 7/8/07, David Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Here is a suggestion for us all:

Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by
a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative
possibility - a community ISP.

One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the
shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source
development concepts could also be implemented - if you want a new
feature, find a few other employees/customers who want it, develop it
yourselves, receive it for no additional cost (and perhaps charge
customers who did contribute to its development for using it).

Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to
be viable?

Does anybody know of an existing project elsewhere of a similar nature ?

David

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[David Smith]

Here is a suggestion for us all:

Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by
a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative
possibility - a community ISP.

One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the
shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source
development concepts could also be implemented - if you want a new
feature, find a few other employees/customers who want it, develop it
yourselves, receive it for no additional cost (and perhaps charge
customers who did contribute to its development for using it).

Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to
be viable?

Does anybody know of an existing project elsewhere of a similar nature ?

David

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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Amit Aronovitch]

Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:

> Omer Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>   
>> Amit Aronovitch:
>>   - Uses Netvision.  Netvision seems to have a single Linux support
>> person.  It is easier to re-create the problem using a MS-Windows
>> laptop and report the error messages displayed by MS-Windows.
>> 
>
> Sorry for being late to the game. 
>
> I do not dispute the above, but I was a Netvision customer (privately,
> not as a business) from something like 1996 (don't remember exactly)
> until a few years ago. I was always able to get Linux support from
> them. The support people were not exactly gurus, but they were able to
> solve problems (not that I had many of them) and I don't recall anyone
> expressing real surprise when I said from the outset that I was using
> Linux, never did they say they did not support it, nor did they insist
> on verifying a problem on Windows (which I didn't have).
>
>   
FTR, this is consistent with my report (sorry if it might seem otherwise
from the summary above).
I did not say that the Linux support was bad, just that there's a longer
wait
 (I don't know how many Linux support people they have, per shift or
otherwise, but it certainly took
some time until they called back, whereas for Windows the first person
to answer can handle the call).

I did say that from my personal, narrow perspective it is much more
efficient to recreate in Windows
and avoid mentioning Linux altogether.
It might be true that from a wider POV, we should ask for Linux support
anyways, so their statistics
become more realistic and they might decide to hire more supporters.



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Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Oleg Goldshmidt]

Omer Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Amit Aronovitch:
>   - Uses Netvision.  Netvision seems to have a single Linux support
> person.  It is easier to re-create the problem using a MS-Windows
> laptop and report the error messages displayed by MS-Windows.

Sorry for being late to the game. 

I do not dispute the above, but I was a Netvision customer (privately,
not as a business) from something like 1996 (don't remember exactly)
until a few years ago. I was always able to get Linux support from
them. The support people were not exactly gurus, but they were able to
solve problems (not that I had many of them) and I don't recall anyone
expressing real surprise when I said from the outset that I was using
Linux, never did they say they did not support it, nor did they insist
on verifying a problem on Windows (which I didn't have).

I would be interested to know if this actually changed in recent years
(I enjoy business grade support through my employer so I quit
Netvision a few years ago).

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.goldshmidt.org

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[SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs

[Omer Zak]

Dotan Cohen:
  - Actcom.
  - Last time I called them with a problem was few weeks ago,
and at the time all seemed normal.
  - If there is no Linux support anymore at Actcom, what must
one do to connect via a Jordanian ISP?
Asaf Halili and Geoffrey S. Mendelson:
  - Actcom was sold to Bezeq Beinleumi, need to check current
status of Linux support.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson:
  - Are Orange and Bynet still an option?  They have not been
cheap, though.
  - Does BEZEQ (the phone company, not the ISP) still have their
10 NIS a month deal for support of a router on an aDSL line?
That might be a better option such as a Linksys WRTG54-L and
Tomato.
Danny Schneidman - a former employee of Actcom:
  - Dont count on Linux support, as all employees got fired,
and as far as i understood, Bezeq's supporters have no clue.
  - The changes are since 2007 June 1 (two weeks ago).
Ori Idan:
  - Wrote a post about it in: http://www.oriidan.info/article/custserv
(At the moment of making this summary, his domain is inaccessible.)
Amit Aronovitch:
  - Uses Netvision.  Netvision seems to have a single Linux support
person.  It is easier to re-create the problem using a MS-Windows
laptop and report the error messages displayed by MS-Windows.
Chaim Keren Tsion:
  - Will stay with Bezeq Beinleumi, and suggests to use the group
power of Linux using Actcom customers to get Bezeq Beinleumi to
continue to support Linux like Actcom did.

  --- Omer
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