Re: Americana guesswork
At 11:21 PM -0500 on 1/21/99, Budrocket wrote: And who wants to be signed now that you can buy your own CD burner and laser printer and print up CDs as you need them, at the rate you need them, etc? Danny Barnes is doing just this -- burning 100 copies of his new releases and selling 'em for $25. They're selling out. But the problem here goes the other way. If you're happy with 100 people hearing your latest release, that's fine, but a lot of bands (and fans) wouldn't be. Bob I suspect Danny Barnes ain't hurtin' too much financially these days, his profile being a little higher than the rest of us, having had releases on both Quarterstick and Sugar Hill...not to mention this other fun stuff: composed and performed the score for the 20th Century Fox film The Newton Boys, recorded with Bill Frisell the score for the HBO documentary American Hollow, played the banjo on the upcoming Disney children's CD, The Sounds of Springtime...etc. Oh yes, Danny is represented by the Davis McLarty Agency. Hell, he had to be able to afford that CD burner somehow... Buddy 1000 Copies For The Music Fans Rockets Someone else made this argument too, and I have to say, so what? Ever drawn 100 people at one of your gigs, Buddy? Hell, he didn't even sell all 100 at a single gig, he lined up a little minitour. Draw 300 people across a few nights and you only need 1 out of 3 to buy one to sell out. Play all year and even if you only total 1,000 people, that's one out of 10 to sell out in a year, with a pretty damned small investment. (You can burn a 75-minute CD in less than 10 minutes, and blanks can be had for nearly free with rebates.) Danny Barnes' profile has nothing to do with the point that a label's completely unnecessary to disseminate your music on CD anymore. Bob
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Two-stepping, too. Brings back fond memories of a sawdust covered floor in a bitty roadhouse with a jukebox outside Pinetop, AZ, circa 1970. LR As I have said many times before, line-dancing is the dance of the devil. It's a mechanized, robotized, rote, brainless, unimaginative, zombie-istic, witchie, sinful, masturbatory tribute to 20th century industrial soullessness. Plus it's really difficult to feel anyone up while you're line-dancing! But I will agree about two-stepping and jitter-bugging and all that swing-type stuff, because, first, it's all the things that line-dancing isn't, and, second, it's a good way of avoiding getting drunk too quickly in a club. And, third, please don't take me too seriously. -- Terry Smith
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
Terry A. Smith wrote: I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Dancing in part at least at its best involves flirting and enjoying your partners presence. It's a game and a wonderful suggestive game at that whether its slow dancing or flat out rock n soul. And that's impossible with line dancing. I've also said that it looks like the Richard Simmons show but the music is better on Richard's show. As an aside, I don't do the the Macarena either. If I'm on a dance floor and I'm gonna grab somebody's ass it sure as hell ain't gonna be my own. Iceman
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
At 08:18 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Two-stepping, too. Brings back fond memories of a sawdust covered floor in a bitty roadhouse with a jukebox outside Pinetop, AZ, circa 1970. LR this is an old discussion, so I brought up my old answer. you've seen it before, but because I am holding the baby (baby says goo- i think that means hi) i will repost this. The truth about LineDancing There is a disease going around that is ruining America. Line-Dancing. You can't go into a Honky Tonk anywhere in this great land without being exposed to it's demonic lure. It's ruining marriages and stamping out the individualism that made our country great. Aids and Safe sex are responsible for line-dancing. People only dance for two reasons. Women dance for fun. They like to get on the dance floor and show off. But men dance for an entirely different reason. We dance to get laid. That's it. We would rather sit at the bar swapping lies, or prove our superior hand-eye coordination at the pool table. But the game of shooting pool is dominated by men. And most guys are more interested in spending quality time, that is time without their clothes on, with the female of the species. So we are forced to interact with them. The way to do this is by talking to them. Gone are the days when you could just whack them in the head with a club and drag them back to your cave. These days, this kind of behavior is frowned upon. And women will club your ass back now too. Nope. The way it's done these days is through the art of communication. Communication is a cruel trick imposed on us males by Nazi Feminists. Us men really aren't any good at it. But if you want that pretty little cave girl to come check out the paintings in your cave you are going to have to learn to communicate. And communication is hard to do at the bar. All the other cavemen there are trying to get underneath her animal skin robes as well. That's why they invented dancing. While dancing it is just you and her. A two step or a slow song is a perfect time for gazing into each others eyes and swapping lies back and forth. Now I'm not much of a dancer. Because of this I didn't get laid much either. So I had to figure out how to dance if I wanted to interact with someone less ugly than me. Slow dancing I had down cold. If you can hug, you can slow dance. Slow dancing is just a hug set to music. You might have to shuffle your feet a little bit, but even a completely uncoordinated drunken klutz can do it. Even a geek like me. But then I had to learn to Two-Step. This was a lot harder. You have to be able to count. I worked at this one for a while. (the counting) Then one night it was explained to me. A Two-Step is nothing more than a controlled stagger. Once I figured how how to Two-Step without causing anyone permanent injuries, I then had to learn how to dance and talk at the same time. This seemed about as simple as brain surgery. After a while I got better at it. I even started showering regularly and using toothpaste and deodorant. This really improved my Communication skills. I was able to spend Quality Time with several future young heartbreaking, home wrecking types. Then along came line-dancing. Line-dancing looks like a Broadway musical. Everything is so carefully choreographed. It looks to me like all line dancers should be wearing tights and a tutu. I don't look good in tights. I can't follow directions worth a damn. But women go for line-dancing. Because it looks pretty. It reminds me of Sumo Wrestling. You aren't close enough to your partner to be able to look into their eyes. You can't talk to them. Hell, line-dancing doesn't even require a partner. It has changed the art of dancing to the equivalent of a livestock show. You trot Ole Bessie out into the ring, circle her around a couple of times, The farmers are standing around talking and checking out Ole Bessie's teats. Then people start bidding. Whoever want's to spend the most on Ole Bessie takes her home. I ain't got a chance. My nights alone have increased dramatically. Give me one of those slow cheating songs where I can rest her large silicone enhanced breasts on top of my large fried chicken enhanced belly. Then I can lean over and whisper one of my world famous patented pickup lines in her ear. like "Them's nice jeans, I bet they'd look even better hanging over the back of my couch" or "Your prettier than a sheep with her back legs caught in a fence on a moonlite night" or my favorite "How would you like to come over and see the house that you are gonna take away in our nasty divorce". You can't break up a home with line-dancing. And it just ain't right to line-dance to cheatin, drinking, prison, or murdered girlfriend songs. You got to two-step or slow dance. That's why more lawyers listen to George Jones and Merle Haggard than Brooks and Dunn. Job Security. Jeff
RE: Americana guesswork
, why does anyone still *want* to be signed? Bob [Matt Benz] Cocaine, pills, good pot, port and brandy, Parties in Hollywood, Lear Jets Custom Coaches, Stadium shows, Getting to say "My good friend Elton John," Bimbos, Starlets Models!, That photo in Rolling Stone with a confused and bored looking Bob Dylan, Recording in Monseratt, Entire hotel floors at your disposal, trashing said hotel floors, Playboy Mansion, The room of guitars in a mansion of your own, fleet of cars outside, Managers, Lawyers, Roadies, Accountants, Dealers, Groupies, hangers-on, and Ron Wood, Cameo rolls in movies, Camero rolls down the hill, Your own record label, Producing the records of your fav ex-legends and obscure should be stars, Get to wear a suitcoat and tie with no shirt, Mob connections, blowing $500,000 in one weekend in Las Vegas, making it back the next week when Rod Stewart covers one of your oldies, People like Jeff Lynne pay attention when you throw a temper tantrum about the levels in your headphones, Making fun of David Geffen, Telling David Crosby to "shut the hell up, you whining walrus" backstage at the Grammies, while wearing a purple tux and your date's Lauren Hutton and you're bombed out of your gourd, Comeback album, Greatest Hits vol 2, with nary a hit on it, Ex-Wifes #3 and #4 still sleep with you, #1 writes a tell all book, #5 is 20 years younger than you, A Rock Opera, a "final" tour, oh wait, this isn't the 70's? Damn. Well, then, you're right, why do we want to get signed?
RE: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
The criticisms of line-dancing offered so far apply just about as well to square dancing and flat footin', neither of which typically involve grab-assin'; I guess that makes them evil and soulless. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Americana guesswork
And who wants to be signed now that you can buy your own CD burner and laser printer and print up CDs as you need them, at the rate you need them, etc? I was talking recently to someone who has an indie album that's sold several thousand and a self-release that's only sold about 1,000. Apparently this person is already in the black on the self-release, whereas the indie still claims it hasn't recouped on sales 5 or 6 times that high And so on. Who needs 'em --junior
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
In a message dated 1/21/99 8:04:34 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The criticisms of line-dancing offered so far apply just about as well to square dancing and flat footin', neither of which typically involve grab-assin'; I guess that makes them evil and soulless. No, they don't. You obviously never had to square dance on rainy days in elementary school, when some evil gym teacher forced you to (ACK!) hold hands with a girl. Too bad we didn't know then what we know now (see Jeff Wall's dissertation on dancing). I bet Jesco White gets laid. Imagine what kind of groupies he has. Slim
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
Jon Weisberger wrote: The criticisms of line-dancing offered so far apply just about as well to square dancing and flat footin', neither of which typically involve grab-assin' . . . which reminds me of the most serious grab-assin' I've ever seen at any gig. It was during a local country band's last song, which happened to be "God Bless America." Boy, talk about your make-out tunes! Tom Smith
RE: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
I missed this one, but Jon, line dancing is about as far from square dancing (not talking modern western stuff here) and flat footin' as you can get. Jim N. "Jon Weisberger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/21 8:03 AM The criticisms of line-dancing offered so far apply just about as well to square dancing and flat footin', neither of which typically involve grab-assin'; I guess that makes them evil and soulless. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Americana guesswork
Junior writes: Apparently this person is already in the black on the self-release, whereas the indie still claims it hasn't recouped on sales 5 or 6 times that high And that's an indie. The break-even point at a major would probably be another five or six times higher than *that*, if not higher. --Jon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wollaston, Massachusetts
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
At 08:55 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: this is an old discussion, so I brought up my old answer. you've seen it before, but because I am holding the baby (baby says goo- i think that means hi) i will repost this. Sorry Jeff, joking or not, you are just wrong about this. Reading all these anti-line dance rants reminds me of our parents (or grandparents, for some of you) who claimed that rock music was the devil's music. You're sounding like a bunch of narrow-minded fuddy-duddies... Republican, even. There are many forms of dance, and only a few of them involve cuddling with your partner or flirting. Those who define dance as only being those dance forms that require a partner have a very limited (and ignorant) view of dancing. Line dancing is similar to Broadway choreography, but whether or not you dance on Broadway has no bearing on the goodness or "badness" of line dance. It's also similar to ethnic folk dance. I suppose you think that those guys dancing in "Fiddler on the Roof" aren't really dancing?! If you don't see any individual expression/interpretation in line dancing then you need to get out more, or else need to start paying more attention. I'm sure there are some clubs where the dancers perform like robots. But most dancers who have progressed beyond beginner's level tend to dance with "character." The truth about LineDancing ...Is that it became very popular with people who got tired of waiting for partners to ask them to dance. (What a bunch of lamers, those "cowboys" bellied up to the bar!) Lianne
RE: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
Well, Lianne's already said some of what I was going to say, but... I missed this one, but Jon, line dancing is about as far from square dancing (not talking modern western stuff here) and flat footin' as you can get. I didn't say they were the same, I said the criticisms of line-dancing apply about as well to those forms. They're not couples holding each other close, and square dancing is so regimented it has a dictator screaming out orders g. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
The Booty Call (was Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@)
Great article in the Washington Post day befor yeaterday about the Booty Call, a new kinda line dance popular with the Black Community. Don't have the URL, but a search through http://www.washingtonpost.com/ should turn it up. I was struck by how folks who dig the Booty Call don't seem to take it quite as seriously as do country line dancers or anti-line dancers. -- Geff King * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www2.ari.net/gking/ "Don't let me catch you laughin' when the jukebox cries" - K. Friedman, "Sold American"
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
Jeff Wall on line dancing -- Have you ever considered writing some of those male/female communication books like "Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars" -- I think you might be able to do a good job and make a shitload of money selling them to the redneck market g Deb Laughing her butt off
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
At 03:24 PM 1/21/99 EST, you wrote: Jeff Wall on line dancing -- Have you ever considered writing some of those male/female communication books like "Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars" -- I think you might be able to do a good job and make a shitload of money selling them to the redneck market g I been working on one. I'm trying to decide on the title now... I'm from Earth, Where the fuck are you from? Men are from Mars, Ex-Wives are from Uranus. I'm Ok, but you need professional help. Jeff Wall http://www.twangzine.com The Webs least sucky music magazine 727 Alder Circle - Va Beach, Va - 23462 -(757) 467-3764
Re: Americana guesswork/line-d@#*@
Lianne McNeil wrote: .Sorry Jeff, joking or not, you are just wrong about this. Reading all these anti-line dance rants reminds me of our parents (or grandparents, for some of you) who claimed that rock music was the devil's music. Well, yah. And they were RIGHT! You're sounding like a bunch of narrow-minded fuddy-duddies... well maybe fuddy duddy. Is that so wrong?! Republican, even. Whoa! That's over the line! Although I would now like to take a lot unrelated incidents and weave a complex theory of the line dance conspiracy foisted on an asleep public (WAKE UP, AMERICA!), and why it must be impeached. There are many forms of dance, and only a few of them involve cuddling with your partner or flirting. Those who define dance as only being those dance forms that require a partner have a very limited (and ignorant) view of dancing. Line dancing is similar to Broadway choreography, but whether or not you dance on Broadway has no bearing on the goodness or "badness" of line dance. It's also similar to ethnic folk dance. I suppose you think that those guys dancing in "Fiddler on the Roof" aren't really dancing?! Yes it is similar to ethnic folk dance. In fact it *is* ethnic f*lk dance. And to avoid irritating Jon W., I'll refrain from describing some of the other mores of this particular ethnicity. If you don't see any individual expression/interpretation in line dancing then you need to get out more, or else need to start paying more attention. I'm sure there are some clubs where the dancers perform like robots. But most dancers who have progressed beyond beginner's level tend to dance with "character." This is true, although its pale pale pale (in the polyvalent sense) compared to a bunch a lit up oldsters doin a polka. No matter how advanced they become, the mechanisms still remind of something more appropriate for half-time at the big game vs. State U. The truth about LineDancing ...Is that it became very popular with people who got tired of waiting for partners to ask them to dance. (What a bunch of lamers, those "cowboys" bellied up to the bar!) Now this is true! And it's the real culprit. Stuart remembering being the only--ONLY!--person (except for Nina) dancing in a roomful of hipsters and college students at a Derailers show.
Americana guesswork
Hm. OK, you performing types -- and I know there's a few on the list --knowing what we know about being signed, the infamous Steve Albini thingand Jimmie Dale Gilmore's debt to Elektra and all, why does anyone still*want* to be signed?Bob Q: Well, if you hate shovelling elephant shit so much, why don't you get another job? A: What, and give up SHOW BUSINESS??!! Buddy Pachyderm Pooh Rockets * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Buddy Woodward - [EMAIL PROTECTED] THE GHOST ROCKETS - Maximum Rhythm Bluegrass http://www.hudsonet.com/~undertow/ghostrockets* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: Americana guesswork
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Budrocket wrote: Q: Well, if you hate shovelling elephant shit so much, why don't you get another job? A: What, and give up SHOW BUSINESS??!! "Being a comedian is pretty rough, I haven't worked in three years!" "Why don't you quit the business?" "What? How would I make a living?" -- Mike Woods
Americana guesswork
And who wants to be signed now that you can buy your own CD burner and laser printer and print up CDs as you need them, at the rate you need them, etc?Danny Barnes is doing just this -- burning 100 copies of his new releasesand selling 'em for $25. They're selling out. But the problem here goesthe other way. If you're happy with 100 people hearing your latestrelease, that's fine, but a lot of bands (and fans) wouldn't be.Bob I suspect Danny Barnes ain't hurtin' too much financially these days, his profile being a little higher than the rest of us, having had releases on both Quarterstick and Sugar Hill...not to mention this other fun stuff: composed and performed the score for the 20th Century Fox film The Newton Boys, recorded with Bill Frisell the score for the HBO documentary American Hollow, played the banjo on the upcoming Disney children's CD, The Sounds of Springtime...etc. Oh yes, Danny is represented by the Davis McLarty Agency. Hell, he had to be able to afford that CD burner somehow... Buddy 1000 Copies For The Music Fans Rockets * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Buddy Woodward - [EMAIL PROTECTED] THE GHOST ROCKETS - Maximum Rhythm Bluegrass http://www.hudsonet.com/~undertow/ghostrockets* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: Americana guesswork
It's late, but never too late to grab some passionate inspiration off the P2 list before hitting the sack. Thanks Jeff W. and Smilin' Jim C.
RE: Americana guesswork
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Moran/Vargo Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:31 PM To: passenger side Subject: Re: Americana guesswork Some country version of Marilyn Manson or Rob Zombie might be able to briefly pull it off and we could ride on their coattails. More sex and drugs! For the most part, we're all a pretty conservative lot, and I doubt our "ethics" would ever allow us to go the route of Marilyn Manson. We need to get used to the fact that Pine State tried this one. Not really Zombie or Manson but certainly psychotic. More like Doo Rag on lots of speed with violent tendencies. I don't know why anyone thinks there needs to be a Nirvana for this type of music (whatever that is) or that something is about to or should "break". As Jeff Wall and others have pointed out there tends to be a cyclical visible period of interest in roots music about every 10 or 15 years. Some periods (Southern Rock and The Eagles) were more commerically successful than say, the period that brought us Scruffy the Cat, The Blasters, Jason the Scorchers et al. There has been (and will continue to be) great music all along, chart buster or no. I predicted about 4 years ago that glam would come back in full force- it looks like it's gathering steam. The more things change Nicholas
Re: Americana guesswork
I'm not saying it's inevitable by any means. But so far, every claim that it can't ignores the fact that right now it *is* happening in another genre, and every reason for the claim that it can't happen is countered by that swing revival. A lot of things have to come together, but obviously it *can* happen with alt-country. Bob I agree with you Bob, but in our town, and I think its probably true all over, is that one thing Swing and Rockabilly has going for it that alt-country doesn't is the whole fashion aspect, which allows listeners to participate in a whole other way. When was the last time you saw somebody walking down the street and could tell right away that they were an alt-country fan? Tom Moran The Deliberate Strangers' Old Home Place http://members.tripod.com/~Deliberate_Strangers/index.html
Re: Americana guesswork
... one thing Swing and Rockabilly has going for it that alt-country doesn't is the whole fashion aspect, which allows listeners to participate in a whole other way. When was the last time you saw somebody walking down the street and could tell right away that they were an alt-country fan? Tom Moran That's a good point, Tom--but Need for Official Clothes is also a flashing neon sign of a passing fad at work--with the half-life of retro two-tone shoes and pseudo zoot suitsI wanna weigh in with the many wise voices of the last 24 hours who've been pointing out the good news that THIS music--in whatever version-of-the-decade it travels as--will just keep on coming. (Not necessarily skyrocketing...) Meanwhile, I think it was the great early alt.country artist Hank Thoreau (of Hank Thoreau and the Deliberate Suburbanites) who said "avoid all enterprises requiring acquisition of new clothes." Barry M.
Re: Americana guesswork
In a message dated 99-01-19 23:50:40 EST, Jeff writes: Support your local musician, promote this music every chance you get. The only way this stuff is ever going to grow will be through Grass Roots (Grass Roots? my god, I sound like a fucking communist!) It won't ever be big with the public, But it will always be big with me. I'll always have room on the couch and an extra burger for a road musician. And I have a sheet of plywood and some cinder blocks so you always got a stage in my backyard. May have to take you up on that Jeff, especially now that you've offered, heh, heh, heh... A friend of mine was painting the most dismal picture for me the other day of the financial future of an alt country artist. It seemed pretty realistic, but what are you going to do? Like salmon working it's way upstream, you keep going, going, grateful to be able to have the opprtunity to get out there and share your music with some like minded folks. I'll probably come back from this tour we've got planned deep in some hole somewhere, the financial hole I've come to know so well, but I wouldn't trade this opportunity for anything. And, besides, it sure is a hell of a lot of fun Elena Skye
Re: Americana guesswork
Good Bob Soron: I'm not saying it's inevitable by any means. But so far, every claim that (alt-country) can't (get huge) ignores the fact that right now it *is* happening in another genre, and every reason for the claim that it can't happen is countered by that swing revival. A lot of things have to come together, but obviously it *can* happen with alt-country. Two large, looming diffences between "Alt-Country" and the Swing Revival: Swing has a Dance and a Look. Although mutton chop sideburns might qualify for a Look, standing aloof in the back of the bar with a bottle of Bud doesn't make much a Dance. Kip
Re: Americana guesswork
Kip writes:Although mutton chop sideburns might qualify for a Look, standing aloof in the back of the bar with a bottle of Bud doesn't make much a Dance. That depends on the kind of hat you're wearing, doesn't it? g Have you ever been to Texas? When the Derailers played Saturday night there were hundreds of people dancing. Of course it *is* kinda hard to dance to Son Volt. Jim, smilin'
Re: Americana guesswork
Meanwhile, I think it was the great early alt.country artist Hank Thoreau (of Hank Thoreau and the Deliberate Suburbanites) who said "avoid all enterprises requiring acquisition of new clothes." Barry M. I liked his second album best, "Mom's Buying the Groceries (But Emerson's Buying the Wine)." Lance . . .
Re: Americana guesswork
Smilin' Jim (Jim, why are you always smilin'?) writes: That depends on the kind of hat you're wearing, doesn't it? g Have you ever been to Texas? When the Derailers played Saturday night there were hundreds of people dancing. Of course it *is* kinda hard to dance to Son Volt. One of the most amazing sights I have ever seen at a gig was a hundred or more bodies pogo-ing to the rocked-up version of Windfall at Dingwalls in London, two novembers ago. Stevie np Dick Gaughan - Sail On
Re: Americana guesswork
Kip writes:Although mutton chop sideburns might qualify for a Look, standing aloof in the back of the bar with a bottle of Bud doesn't make much a Dance. Smilin' Jim (Jim, why are you always smilin'?) writes: That depends on the kind of hat you're wearing, doesn't it? g Have you ever been to Texas? When the Derailers played Saturday night there were hundreds of people dancing. Of course it *is* kinda hard to dance to Son Volt. Again, I guess I'm picking more on the Tupelo Rock (tm) crowd than the retro-tonk thing. Goes without saying that you can two-step and dosy-doe all night long to the likes of the Derailers/Dale Watson et al. But will the Derailers be the "Alt-Country Nirvana"? Naw. They're fun and all and sure got the sound down but I can't see them crossing over the way that even the Mavericks did a few years back. My own personal opinion. Kip
Nirvana buzz (was: Re: Americana guesswork)
Neal Weiss wrote: Jeez, I wouldn't wish that type of pressure on any band. Besides, I don't think one can even find good enough odds to place a bet on such a thing. Nirvana was a total freak of nature, a lot of talent and timing came into play, but none of it, I don't believe was ever forecasted. It just happened. Period. (With the aid of some big label marketing bucks, of course). I agree with Neal... of course, I do still own (somewhere) that free Nirvana shirt that Geffen sent along as a "gift" with the new album upon its release. Of course, I stopped wearing it when they became "chic". Now that Swervedriver shirt is another story! g (I believe the Nirvana sticker that came around that time is still stuck on the door of the room I was living in at that time, at least someone told me that the ol' "sticker door" was still around) Paul/Pop Booking
re: Americana Guesswork
JP Cold Spring wrote: Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. You mean like ANGRY JOHNNY THE KILLBILLIES? g Kip Loui wrote But see, that's the thing...there's never going to be an "Alt-Country Nirvana" because fifteen year-olds don't generally listen to Steve Earle or Dale Watson or even the Old 97's. Tom Moran wrote: You would have to do one hell of a PR job to foist it off on the public. Some country version of Marilyn Manson or Rob Zombie might be able to briefly pull it off and we could ride on their coattails. I think this was best exampled in Nashville when the local press dubbed Angry Johnny as "the Marilyn Manson of country music." This drew out of few teenaged boys to the show, who (as my friend guessed) left after the 3rd song! It was good for a laugh. Paul/Pop Booking
Re: Americana guesswork
Kip writes: (Jim, why are you always smilin'?) It's either the drugs or the atmosphere here in Austin. That and the fact that I'm secretly in love with Babooski. Jim, smilin'
Americana guesswork
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...But really, do I care if Jay Farrar never sells 1,000,000 copies of anything? As long as he can make a living in this silly business, I suspect he'll be reasonably content and will continue making music. Kip And that's the key, innit...Making A Living. There has to be some sort of *success* to maintain a sustainable yield, or it just dries up. Hard for me to comment further when I can't even seem to get out of the goddamn starting gate...if I hear one more why they ain't signed is a mystery comment in a review I'm going to puke. Figure I'll worry about the rest when - or IF - the time comes... Buddy 0 for 0 Rockets * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Buddy Woodward - [EMAIL PROTECTED] THE GHOST ROCKETS - Maximum Rhythm Bluegrass http://www.hudsonet.com/~undertow/ghostrockets* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: Americana guesswork
At 05:30 PM 1/20/1999 -0600, you wrote: Hm. OK, you performing types -- and I know there's a few on the list -- knowing what we know about being signed, the infamous Steve Albini thing and Jimmie Dale Gilmore's debt to Elektra and all, why does anyone still *want* to be signed? Bob Good question, Bob.though I'm not totally opposed to being signed to a major, I believe there are certain aspects that can't be overlooked. I think the biggest aspect, in my humble opinion is the marketing clout. The majors have the bucks and infrastructure to get to a larger audience by way of thier marketing bucks and influence on commercial radio (no I did not say payola, that's illegal g). Donuts work, though. For the artist, you wanna play, you wanna write, you want people to hear your work. You want to sell records so you can keep doing the other things. Commercial radio is demographics and money. Smaller labels have a very hard time busting through to the PD. Therefore, for the most part, the smaller labels get their biggest support from non com radio. Doesn't pay much in royalties. Tour, tour, tour On the other hand, I could not be happier with my little label. They give us complete control over our records..(I DON'T HEAR A SINGLE)...we don't owe them money big bucks when we are done..(WE NEED 250,000 IN SALES TO BREAK EVEN!)..and he works hard for us when we tour. Together we chart our destiny, and as the label grows, so does the band. Hopefully, together we can make a dent, and while we're at it make enough scratch to feed ourselves and buy strings. I've watched enough of my compadres here in AZ go the major route only to emerge from the other end bruised and banged up and still somewhat monetarily embarrassedSo joy of joys, I get to continue working my stinking day job through the whole production process knowing in the end that I didn't have to compromise my craft and don't owe a bunch of money for a record that may or may not get label support depending on the labels merger status. Also, a bunch of thirtysomething guys playing Americana(TM) probobly are not as marketable as a bunch of good looking twenty year olds playing alternarock. (My little reality check). Chris House Ignitors (brought to you by) Hayden's Ferry Records BTW, Stu...Where's my check? g
Re: Americana guesswork
I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Two-stepping, too. Brings back fond memories of a sawdust covered floor in a bitty roadhouse with a jukebox outside Pinetop, AZ, circa 1970. LR
Re: Americana guesswork
At 08:10 PM 1/20/1999 EST, you wrote: I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Two-stepping, too. Brings back fond memories of a sawdust covered floor in a bitty roadhouse with a jukebox outside Pinetop, AZ, circa 1970. LR Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that place burned to the ground last year in the middle of a packed floor lining up for "achy breaky heart". Luckly, the only casualty was Billie Ray.
Re: Americana guesswork
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Disco. Crappy music from records, and it looks dopey. Stuart who confesses to getting suckered by the dancin fool into line dance lessons. I had a hard enough time with counting to four with the two-step, let alone counting to 17 or 29 or however of those silly steps there are. I ended up out in the parking lot at the Knights of Columbus Hall smoking cigs with the other line-dance challenged guys.
Re: Americana guesswork
At 06:39 PM 1/20/99 -0700, you wrote: At 08:10 PM 1/20/1999 EST, LindaRay wrote: I would just like to say that I do not understand what everybody has against line dancing. I think it's a lot of fun. Two-stepping, too. Brings back fond memories of a sawdust covered floor in a bitty roadhouse with a jukebox outside Pinetop, AZ, circa 1970. LR Thank you, Linda! I'm not overly fond of line dancing myself, but I do enjoy some of them. And the people I know who do it are great people and fun to be with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that place burned to the ground last year in the middle of a packed floor lining up for "achy breaky heart". Luckly, the only casualty was Billie Ray. Gong! (bad joke) g The Achy Breaky Heart line dance went out of fashion about 5 years ago. And contrary to popular "opinion," Billy Ray was not the originator of line dancing. (Ex: The Electric Slide has been around so long... it was probably being danced before Billy Ray Cyrus was even born.) g Lianne
Re: Americana guesswork
Geff King writes: You know, working on the fringes of the environmental industry as I do, the term 'sustainable development' comes up a lot. Makes me think of 'Americana' as perhaps a sustainable form of music - just enough popularity and acclaim to let artists make a living without having to buy the farm or sell the soul? Hey, there's a catchy new name for the genre: Sustainable Country. Okay, maybe not... But it's true that there are countless musicians out there in a number of genres (including our own) who are making apparently adequate livings from their music and getting their music heard by an apparently adequate number of people, and maybe, realistically, that's the best we can hope for for alt-country/Americana. For a variety of reasons, some of which have already been mentioned here, I don't think a massive breakthrough is likely for either the "Tupelo Rock" (what an atrocious term) side of alt-country or the more countryish side, the folks like Dale Watson, Sara Evans, Kelly Willis, et al. who are playing music that's "too country for country radio". (And FWIW, I don't see any reason that the latter is a vastly better candidate for such a breakthrough than the former, as John Riedie and others have suggested. The Americana stuff clearly has a better shot at a breakthrough on country radio, but the country-rock stuff has a better chance of breaking through on AAA and rock radio; regardless of the size of the teenage (or 18-24, in marketing terms) component of country audiences, which I think has always been considerable in many parts of the country, Son Volt and Whiskeytown are still more likely to appeal to the vastly larger 18-24 audience for rock radio, who are the folks who most often create the sort of Nirvana-sized breakthroughs that we're talking about here. But I digress.) But like Bob Soron, I don't think it's inconceivable, either, that some alt-country/Americana artist might achieve a big breakthrough that would catapult the whole genre to the mainstream, leading to big sales, millions of signings of acts with even the vaguest alt-country connection, and eventually, an alt-country fashion section at K-Mart (and from there, a rapid fall from grace for the genre, followed by snide references to it by late-night talk show hosts and a vague sense of embarrassment among those who jumped on the trend and then abandoned it--"geez, remember that alt-country phase we went through?"). What I can't conceive of is why anybody thinks this would be a good thing. Another Nirvana? Yeah, all that success worked out wonderfully for Kurt Cobain, didn't it? Not to mention for people like Mark Lanegan and others who had the megawatt spotlight of supertrendiness trained on them for a fleeting moment. And it's worth remembering that the grunge movement, such as it was, featured, to a great extent, bands who were either riding the coattails of the movement, and it came way too late for bands like the Replacements who'd laid the groundwork for bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam. An Americana breakthrough would likely feature a lot of the same thing, and might well leave the real pioneers in the dirt. Don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those who hopes that my favorite bands remain cult faves, eking out meager livings and being dropped by label after label just so my friends and I can feel all avant-garde for knowing about them. I'd like all the musicians I admire to make tons of money, or at least to make as much money as they want to make. I just think that there are ways that this can happen without forcing them into flash-in-the-pan status. --Amy, really enjoying this thread, which is one of the more substantive ones we've had in a while
Re: Americana guesswork
At 07:03 PM 1/20/1999 -0800, you wrote: Gong! (bad joke) g The Achy Breaky Heart line dance went out of fashion about 5 years ago. And contrary to popular "opinion," Billy Ray was not the originator of line dancing. (Ex: The Electric Slide has been around so long... it was probably being danced before Billy Ray Cyrus was even born.) g Lianne Haven't been to Pinetop lately, have you? BRC and ABH are still in the top 10 there...'Course I always did figr dem Angile Flyte suits, cowboy boots and Stenson caps made quite the fashion statement. And they finally paved THE road.BG God, I love Arizona.
Americana guesswork
There's a story developing here regarding the current state of "Americana." (TM)Who's going to write it? (c'mon Mr. Slack - tell it like it is) Caution: the following are assumptions, though I suspect close to the truth: Someone probably wanted Americana to still be Americana - in other words, keeping the current reporting stations intact, which for the majority are not huge and potentially impacting, and someone else probably wanted to slick it up a bit. Maybe start a singles chart. Change the name. Blah blah blah. The circle goes round and round and you can only suspect and theorize who wants what. Bottom line: the stuff ain't selling and not many people are paying attention to it, and maybe Gavin or whoever else involved the Americana mafia are finally beginning to realize it and feel the need for changes to be made before Gavin just gives up on it. I mean, when Dale Watson's only selling appox 10,000 copies, maybe some changes should be made. Who knows. I'm just guessing...I know I wouldn't want that damn job
Re: Americana guesswork
There's a story developing here regarding the current state of "Americana." (TM)Who's going to write it? (c'mon Mr. Slack - tell it like it is) Caution: the following are assumptions, though I suspect close to the truth: Someone probably wanted Americana to still be Americana - in other words, keeping the current reporting stations intact, which for the majority are not huge and potentially impacting, and someone else probably wanted to slick it up a bit. Maybe start a singles chart. Change the name. Blah blah blah. The circle goes round and round and you can only suspect and theorize who wants what. Bottom line: the stuff ain't selling and not many people are paying attention to it, and maybe Gavin or whoever else involved the Americana mafia are finally beginning to realize it and feel the need for changes to be made before Gavin just gives up on it. I mean, when Dale Watson's only selling appox 10,000 copies, maybe some changes should be made. Who knows. I'm just guessing...I know I wouldn't want that damn job First off, "The Truckin' Sessions" as of last week has sold less than 4000 units since its release in August. So the sales impact of "Americana" radio is even less than most assume. Anyway... I think the name "Americana" sucks. As a word it connotes a wide array of meanings, none of which immediately bring to mind the kind of music that seems to be be taking over a chart that was once dominated by folky singer-songwriter crap. My thinking is that Gavin should take advantage of the widespread disgust and disillusionment with country radio (which truly is the root of all evil - Nashville makes records according to the perceived tastes of programmers) by scrapping the folky reporting stations, renaming the chart "Alternative Country" and positioning the whole thing similarly to the way Alternative Rock was positioned in opposition to AOR ten years ago. How will this help sell records? First, changing the name from the hazy "Americana" to something with the word "country" in it will clearly define the whole raison d'etre of the format as an actual alternative to the dreck on country radio, Though my research is informal and anecdotal (my mom and her friends were the focus group) I believe lots of country fans are sick of country radio. A clearly defined format can be more easily marketed to disaffected country fans. Second, and most importantly, as alternative rock caused AOR to loosen up and start playing U2 and REM then Pearl Jam, and Soundgarden, then Rage Against the Machine, I believe even a moderately successful alternative country format will force mainstream programmers to broaden their playlists to include acts such as The Derailers, Dale Watson, and Kelly Willis and maybe even consign Shania and her ilk to some sort of Adult Contemporary Country format.Then we will begin to see sales impact. Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. After hearing a bit of their new recordings and considering their slight but important impact at mainstream country with "California Angel" I'm thinking maybe The Derailers are the right horse on which to bet. NP: The Trial of William Jefferson Clinton
Americana guesswork
Actually, I agree with Mr. Riedie (and Yates, for that matter). The term "Americana" has proven itself to be too vague to mean much to listeners; it seems to denote singer-songwriter types, if anything. So as much as the term "Alt-Country" makes me groan, I be happier seeing it used than the other, as least as far as the twangy stuff goes. Kip
Re: Americana guesswork
Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. After hearing a bit of their new recordings and considering their slight but important impact at mainstream country with "California Angel" I'm thinking maybe The Derailers are the right horse on which to bet. Therein lies the problem. The fucking thing is overhyped already. At least grunge started selling, THEN got overhyped. It's now been 6 years or so (arguably) that this genre/format or whatever gotten any attention and every year we hear the same bullshit - I remember Peter Blackstock saying "this is the one that's going to blow it open" about "Tomorrow the Green Grass." Less than a year later, he admirably put his tail between his legs in the same paper he wrote it and admitted he was wrong. And the year before that and after that it was another record. Every year it's something new that's going to blow it open. I have no idea why I am typing this. Oh well. -Original Message- From: JP Riedie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: passenger side [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:18 PM Subject: Re: Americana guesswork There's a story developing here regarding the current state of "Americana." (TM)Who's going to write it? (c'mon Mr. Slack - tell it like it is) Caution: the following are assumptions, though I suspect close to the truth: Someone probably wanted Americana to still be Americana - in other words, keeping the current reporting stations intact, which for the majority are not huge and potentially impacting, and someone else probably wanted to slick it up a bit. Maybe start a singles chart. Change the name. Blah blah blah. The circle goes round and round and you can only suspect and theorize who wants what. Bottom line: the stuff ain't selling and not many people are paying attention to it, and maybe Gavin or whoever else involved the Americana mafia are finally beginning to realize it and feel the need for changes to be made before Gavin just gives up on it. I mean, when Dale Watson's only selling appox 10,000 copies, maybe some changes should be made. Who knows. I'm just guessing...I know I wouldn't want that damn job First off, "The Truckin' Sessions" as of last week has sold less than 4000 units since its release in August. So the sales impact of "Americana" radio is even less than most assume. Anyway... I think the name "Americana" sucks. As a word it connotes a wide array of meanings, none of which immediately bring to mind the kind of music that seems to be be taking over a chart that was once dominated by folky singer-songwriter crap. My thinking is that Gavin should take advantage of the widespread disgust and disillusionment with country radio (which truly is the root of all evil - Nashville makes records according to the perceived tastes of programmers) by scrapping the folky reporting stations, renaming the chart "Alternative Country" and positioning the whole thing similarly to the way Alternative Rock was positioned in opposition to AOR ten years ago. How will this help sell records? First, changing the name from the hazy "Americana" to something with the word "country" in it will clearly define the whole raison d'etre of the format as an actual alternative to the dreck on country radio, Though my research is informal and anecdotal (my mom and her friends were the focus group) I believe lots of country fans are sick of country radio. A clearly defined format can be more easily marketed to disaffected country fans. Second, and most importantly, as alternative rock caused AOR to loosen up and start playing U2 and REM then Pearl Jam, and Soundgarden, then Rage Against the Machine, I believe even a moderately successful alternative country format will force mainstream programmers to broaden their playlists to include acts such as The Derailers, Dale Watson, and Kelly Willis and maybe even consign Shania and her ilk to some sort of Adult Contemporary Country format.Then we will begin to see sales impact. Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. After hearing a bit of their new recordings and considering their slight but important impact at mainstream country with "California Angel" I'm thinking maybe The Derailers are the right horse on which to bet. NP: The Trial of William Jefferson Clinton
Re: Americana guesswork
But see, that's the thing...there's never going to be an "Alt-Country Nirvana" because fifteen year-olds don't generally listen to Steve Earle or Dale Watson or even the Old 97's. Let's face it, folks: this P2 bag, this Americana/Alt-Country/Roots-Rock thing that gets discussed here? It's Old People Music g. Sure, some of your more open-minded, musically curious youngsters are gonna dig this stuff but essentially this is a niche market, for the most part. I mean hell, even back in the heyday of '70's country rock, only the Eagles made any money off the music--and even then, they bagged the twangier elements of it right around "Hotel California". The Jayhawks, Uncle Tupelo, the Botterockets, Wilco, Son Volt, Whiskeytown, *none* of these bands has done/is doing the kind of sales that say, Third Eye Blind is doing, and I really don't see that changing anytime soon. In fact, rarely has there been so much media attention paid to a genre that, for all intents and purposes, is commerical death. What's my point? We shouldn't be waiting for the Unknown Act to open the Alt-Country gates wide, because it isn't going to happen. And really, is that so horrible a thing? Kip
Re: Americana guesswork
Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. After hearing a bit of their new recordings and considering their slight but important impact at mainstream country with "California Angel" I'm thinking maybe The Derailers are the right horse on which to bet. Therein lies the problem. The fucking thing is overhyped already. At least grunge started selling, THEN got overhyped. It's now been 6 years or so (arguably) that this genre/format or whatever gotten any attention and every year we hear the same bullshit - I remember Peter Blackstock saying "this is the one that's going to blow it open" about "Tomorrow the Green Grass." Less than a year later, he admirably put his tail between his legs in the same paper he wrote it and admitted he was wrong. And the year before that and after that it was another record. Every year it's something new that's going to blow it open. I have no idea why I am typing this. Oh well. If I'm not mistaken, Blackstock was referring to the type of music originally considered alt country - Son Volt, Jayhawks and that ilk - music more alternative than country that never had a prayer of appealing to people who listen to Garth Brooks. It was incredibly, disturbingly overhyped more as a successor to grunge at alternative radio than an alternative to Nashville. I'm talking about country music that is only alternative when defined against Nashville. Without crap like Shania Twain and Tim McGraw, The Derailers are just plain country. The format we need probably will not be pushing the stuff Blackstock to which Blackstock was referring.
Re: Americana guesswork
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But see, that's the thing...there's never going to be an "Alt-Country Nirvana" because fifteen year-olds don't generally listen to Steve Earle or Dale Watson or even the Old 97's. Let's face it, folks: this P2 bag, this Americana/Alt-Country/Roots-Rock thing that gets discussed here? It's Old People Music g. Sure, some of your more open-minded, musically curious youngsters are gonna dig this stuff but essentially this is a niche market, for the most part. Not disagreeing, Kip, but who says that niche has to be teenagers? Aren't there plenty of country fans who just can't find what they want on the radio? (Hook for Jon to point out that, with record Arb scores, country radio *is* giving fans what they want. g) The biggest problem I have with that scenario myself, and I guess I just have to hope I'm proven wrong, is that back, say, in the '70s and early '80s, progressive country was essentially country music that incorporated elements of other kinds of music -- mostly rock, also quite a bit of jazz and blues. Nowadays alt-country is exactly the opposite: different kinds of music incorporating aspects of country. Now, a few hundred people on this list find that fascinating, but I'm not sure folks who know what they want would listen to a radio station that plays four songs they don't want for that fifth they do. I mean hell, even back in the heyday of '70's country rock, only the Eagles made any money off the music--and even then, they bagged the twangier elements of it right around "Hotel California". Remember, this is looking at it only from the rock standpoint. Folks like Waylon Jennings weren't exactly begging for spare change. The Jayhawks, Uncle Tupelo, the Botterockets, Wilco, Son Volt, Whiskeytown, *none* of these bands has done/is doing the kind of sales that say, Third Eye Blind is doing, and I really don't see that changing anytime soon. In fact, rarely has there been so much media attention paid to a genre that, for all intents and purposes, is commerical death. What's my point? We shouldn't be waiting for the Unknown Act to open the Alt-Country gates wide, because it isn't going to happen. And really, is that so horrible a thing? I agree that we shouldn't be waiting, but I don't think it's so unlikely, either. Unless you understand why the Squirrel Nut Zippers have been so successful. (Which can be described in hindsight, but does anyone really *know*?) Bob (Of course, now the Zippers are considered "alternative" rather than "jazz." Ha.)
Re: Americana guesswork
I'm counting on everyone to stop wishing alt-country will "blow open," since the continual frustration of that hope seems to me to be causing some of the genre's stalwarts to falter a bit. There'll be events like Lucinda's much-hyped (but not so much bought) 1998, but I think the key is the demographic point someone previously made - it is in fact a glass ceiling that's set at about knee level. Though this is a drag for working musicians, for fans it's not really so bad - the constant obsession with judging musical success by huge sales numbers seems parallel to me with the tendency to judge politics by polls, movies by box office, and justice by corporate dividends. Here's my 1999 slogan for alt-country/Americana - The Back To "No Future" Music - "The Past is Now." carl w.
Re: Americana guesswork
My thinking is that Gavin should take advantage of the widespread disgust and disillusionment with country radio (which truly is the root of all evil Tell it brother! The declining numbers for country radio should be the writing on the wall but it seems as if everyone with any power has blinders on. And they damn sure don't listen to anyone who has a finger on the pulse of the listening audience - Nashville makes records according to the perceived tastes of programmers) by scrapping the folky reporting stations, renaming the chart "Alternative Country" and positioning the whole thing similarly to the way Alternative Rock was positioned in opposition to AOR ten years ago. Or how about just calling it Real Country and let Gnashville get their knickers in a knot. Who gives a rats ass? Your idea on positioning is a bonafide one and no matter what it's called it must use the term country to make it easily identifiable to the "forgotten listeners", How will this help sell records? First, changing the name from the hazy "Americana" to something with the word "country" in it will clearly define the whole raison d'etre of the format as an actual alternative to the dreck on country radio, . A clearly defined format can be more easily marketed to disaffected country fans. BINGO! NOW ONLINE, www.TwangCast.com TM RealCountry netcast 24 X 7 Please Visit Then let us know what you think! Mike Hays www.MikeHays.RealCountry.net For the best country artist web hosting, www.RealCountry.net
Re: Americana guesswork
I tend to agree with JP that the "Tupelo" vein of twangy alt-rock was never destined to break big, but should be distinguished from the Austin-and-elsewhere style of *country* outside the Nasvegas mainstream. This latter vein, to my mind, is another thing altogether, and something that with the right marketing and support could do better --junior
Re: Americana guesswork
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, BARNARD wrote: I tend to agree with JP that the "Tupelo" vein of twangy alt-rock was never destined to break big, but should be distinguished from the Austin-and-elsewhere style of *country* outside the Nasvegas mainstream. This latter vein, to my mind, is another thing altogether, and something that with the right marketing and support could do better Actually, I fully agree with what the professor writes above and what Bob Soron was, I think, partially referring to in his post. There *is* a difference between "Tupelo Rock" (trademark pending) and the retro-roots stylings of bands like the Derailers/Dale Watson/the Mavericks etc, and the latter surely could be marketed more cannily to those who are dissatisfied with commerical country radio. But I don't see a whole lot of growth on the Tupelo Rock side of things; it's just too rock for country and too country for rock'n'roll, as they say. But really, do I care if Jay Farrar never sells 1,000,000 copies of anything? As long as he can make a living in this silly business, I suspect he'll be reasonably content and will continue making music. Kip
Re: Americana guesswork
I'm counting on everyone to stop wishing alt-country will "blow open," since the continual frustration of that hope seems to me to be causing some of the genre's stalwarts to falter a bit. There'll be events like Lucinda's much-hyped (but not so much bought) 1998, but I think the key is the demographic point someone previously made - it is in fact a glass ceiling that's set at about knee level. Though this is a drag for working musicians, for fans it's not really so bad - the constant obsession with judging musical success by huge sales numbers seems parallel to me with the tendency to judge politics by polls, movies by box office, and justice by corporate dividends. Here's my 1999 slogan for alt-country/Americana - The Back To "No Future" Music - "The Past is Now." carl w. Hey! Don't forget that by most definitions I'm a weasel and if I don't figure out how to help them sell millions I'll never get my private jet or be able to afford several trophy wives. But seriously, nobody's judging success only by sales. Hell, I would jumped into hip-hop a long time ago if I thought that way. What I AM interested in doing is getting some bona fide geniuses as much success as I believe they deserve and maybe preserve a great musical tradition that is being bastardized as never before.
Re: Americana guesswork
But see, that's the thing...there's never going to be an "Alt-Country Nirvana" because fifteen year-olds don't generally listen to Steve Earle or Dale Watson or even the Old 97's. Let's face it, folks: this P2 bag, this Americana/Alt-Country/Roots-Rock thing that gets discussed here? It's Old People Music g. Sure, some of your more open-minded, musically curious youngsters are gonna dig this stuff but essentially this is a niche market, for the most part. I mean hell, even back in the heyday of '70's country rock, only the Eagles made any money off the music--and even then, they bagged the twangier elements of it right around "Hotel California". The Jayhawks, Uncle Tupelo, the Botterockets, Wilco, Son Volt, Whiskeytown, *none* of these bands has done/is doing the kind of sales that say, Third Eye Blind is doing, and I really don't see that changing anytime soon. In fact, rarely has there been so much media attention paid to a genre that, for all intents and purposes, is commerical death. What's my point? We shouldn't be waiting for the Unknown Act to open the Alt-Country gates wide, because it isn't going to happen. And really, is that so horrible a thing? Kip I'm not known for my optimism (is it optimistic to think that deep down Yates really likes me?) but two things make me think you're wrong 1) Before Nirvana, punk WAS "old people's music" the average punk fan before Nirvana (Kurt always claimed it to be a punk band) took it to the masses was the age of the editors at Maximum Rock and Roll - mid-thirties. I think its fair to say (though, this is from my own experience in Austin's punk scene) that punk was seen as the music of aging hipsters. Around 1988 I was among the youngest regulars on the scene. Teenagers into punk were a small subculture before Nirvana, The Offspring and Green Day broke it open. 2) I'm not talking about Son Volt et al. I'm talking about converting teenagers already into country from crapola to good country - The Derailers making Diamond Rio, John Michael Montgomery and Clay Walker look passe and silly (duh!) and eventually taking up space on mainstream radio next to Alan Jackson, Patty Loveless and George Strait. Kind of like Dwight, Clint, Randy and Steve saved country from Kenny Rogers in 1986 (of course Garth ruined all that.) From tired, cliched country to another, richer style that will also bring new fans to the genre. Like Nirvana converted Motley Crue and Poison fans to punk - a more vibrant form of the general type of music they already listened to. And remember, when AOR radio opened up to some of the acts who broke at alternative they didn't stop playing Aerosmith and AC/DC, they dropped only those acts that looked ridiculously passe and silly. As for the bands you cite, they were never in line for country radio, rather the industry expected them to break at alternative and AAA, eventually crossing into AOR possibly Contemporary Adult, but never, ever at country. An ideal alternative country format would play all the subgenres discussed here (except maybe bluegrass g) but only a few would crossover. The analogue within alt rock being that Pearl Jam is often played side by side with Led Zeppelin on mainstream rock stations but Depeche Mode didn't make it. And finally, before anyone points out that the alternative format is now hopelessly mire in the muck of mainstream, just remember, I'm discussing the format as it stood 5-7 years ago.
Re: Americana guesswork
JP writes: 2) I'm not talking about Son Volt et al. I'm talking about converting teenagers already into country from crapola to good country etc Kind of like Dwight, Clint, Randy and Steve saved country from Kenny Rogers in 1986 (of course Garth ruined all that.) From tired, cliched country to another, richer style that will also bring new fans to the genre. Like Nirvana converted Motley Crue and Poison fans to punk ... ok, but how many teenagers are there who are into any kinda country? anyone know? does Garth have a teenaged audience? did Dwight Randy? i'm genuinely curious. verbose this aft, carl w.
Re: Americana guesswork
JP writes:
2) I'm not talking about Son Volt et al. I'm talking about
converting teenagers already into country from crapola to good
country etc Kind of like Dwight, Clint, Randy and Steve saved
country from Kenny Rogers in 1986 (of course Garth ruined all that.)
From tired, cliched country to another, richer style that will also
bring new fans to the genre. Like Nirvana converted Motley Crue and
Poison fans to punk ...
ok, but how many teenagers are there who are into any kinda country?
anyone know? does Garth have a teenaged audience? did Dwight Randy?
i'm genuinely curious.
verbose this aft,
carl w.
Well, Dwight and Steve snagged me when I was sixteen and was only listening
to 70's Willie, Waylon and Merle 'cause I felt (rightly) that contemporary
country sucked.
The last two big revolutions in commercial country (The Outlaws and Dwight
et al) spurred overall growth in the genre. In fact, the outlaws record
was the first country record to ever go platinum. Maybe the next
revolution ("the Austin takeover" is what I like to call it) will energize
disaffected country fans AND bring in bored rock fans who can't seem to get
their heads around hip-hop.
As for teenagers being into country right now? There sure are an awful lot
of them showing up at Garth's shows. Yet according to a friend in Asleep
at the Wheel attendance on the George Strait tour they did last year was
overwhelmingly 30+ and predominately female. So who knows? Maybe if
Nashville gave them something with at least a whiff of rebellion
Re: Americana guesswork
ok, but how many teenagers are there who are into any kinda country? anyone know? does Garth have a teenaged audience? did Dwight Randy? Garth and Shania are about the only ones with sizable teen audiences but I am amazed at how many youngsters know and love the music my band covers every weekend, and we don't do Garth, we do George and Faron nd Hank! NOW ONLINE, www.TwangCast.com TM RealCountry netcast 24 X 7 Please Visit Then let us know what you think! Mike Hays www.MikeHays.RealCountry.net For the best country artist web hosting, www.RealCountry.net
Re: Americana guesswork
At 07:17 PM 1/19/1999 -0500, you wrote: JP writes: ok, but how many teenagers are there who are into any kinda country? anyone know? does Garth have a teenaged audience? did Dwight Randy? i'm genuinely curious. verbose this aft, carl w. I don't know 'bout your end of the nation, but here in sunny Arizona the number of younger country listeners...and, I might add, with lots of disposable income (which for me means they might buy my records) is big and getting bigger. Hell, I've got a 14 year old niece asking me if I know Garth. Then again, Phoenix radio went into the toilet years ago.g NP: 1R1R
Re: Americana guesswork
At 06:34 PM 1/19/1999 -0600, you wrote: Maybe if Nashville gave them something with at least a whiff of rebellion BINGO!
Re: Americana guesswork
JP Riedie wrote:
Maybe the next revolution ("the Austin takeover" is what I like to call it)
will energize
disaffected country fans AND bring in bored rock fans who can't seem to get
their heads around hip-hop.
Hey I was just talking to someone about "The Austin" connection. My
recollection is the whole Americana(tm) thang, in the beginning, was pretty
darn heavy with Texas folks and seems to have a fair share today. Maybe they
should just move the chart folks to Austin where they can be around all the
folks making music.
Jamie
NP: The Lucky Strikes "Songs and Dance"
Re: Americana guesswork
Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. After hearing a bit of their new recordings and considering their slight but important impact at mainstream country with "California Angel" I'm thinking maybe The Derailers are the right horse on which to bet. "Alt country"(which are the worst two words in the English language to mass market anything) or whatever you want to call it covers such a wide spectrum of musical tastes that I don't think there can ever be the kind of general consensus needed to raise one band or one sub-genre to any kind of Nirvana-like stature. So far, the numbers just ain't adding up to any kind of "breakthrough" for "alt-what-ever-it-is". The fact is that most people just plain and simple don't like it. You would have to do one hell of a PR job to foist it off on the public. Some country version of Marilyn Manson or Rob Zombie might be able to briefly pull it off and we could ride on their coattails. More sex and drugs! For the most part, we're all a pretty conservative lot, and I doubt our "ethics" would ever allow us to go the route of Marilyn Manson. We need to get used to the fact that "alt country" is always going to be a sub-genre and turn that to our advantage through reciprocity and good old pre-CMJ DIY ethics. I'm done now. Tom Moran The Deliberate Strangers' Old Home Place http://members.tripod.com/~Deliberate_Strangers/index.html
Re: Americana guesswork
In a message dated 1/19/99 1:17:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, music@cold- spring.com writes: Of course, what we really need is our own Nirvana. After hearing a bit of their new recordings and considering their slight but important impact at mainstream country with "California Angel" I'm thinking maybe The Derailers are the right horse on which to bet. Jeez, I wouldn't wish that type of pressure on any band. Besides, I don't think one can even find good enough odds to place a bet on such a thing. Nirvana was a total freak of nature, a lot of talent and timing came into play, but none of it, I don't believe was ever forecasted. It just happened. Period. (With the aid of some big label marketing bucks, of course). NW
Re: Americana guesswork
WOW. I've been away from my computer most of the day, so I'm sorry I didn't get to participate in this dialog. But, hell, it looks like I opened a pretty big can o'worms. g I don't have time to address all the good points that have been made, right now, but I like Jamie's idea: "Maybe they should just move the chart folks to Austin where they can be around all the folks making music." for obvious reasons.VBG The Gavin folks and some people who are behind the chart want it in Nashberg. That's where they see the money and they run a business. I've always said it won't succeed in Nashville cos the people with the money there don't get it. That's why they give us bands like the Great Divide and the Warren Brothers. IMHO until someone see's that point (and I think that was Mr. Marino's problem) it'll never be what they want it to be. I've got some ideas that I'm working on that I can't share right now. The wheels are turning, let's leave it at that. Thanks y'all for the inspiration. Jim, smilin'
Re: Americana guesswork
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...But really, do I care if Jay Farrar never sells 1,000,000 copies of anything? As long as he can make a living in this silly business, I suspect he'll be reasonably content and will continue making music. Kip You know, working on the fringes of the environmental industry as I do, the term 'sustainable development' comes up a lot. Makes me think of 'Americana' as perhaps a sustainable form of music - just enough popularity and acclaim to let artists make a living without having to buy the farm or sell the soul? I could go on, but it's late -- Geff King * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www2.ari.net/gking/ "The United States will collapse by 1980." --Timothy Leary, 1965 (15 years before the 1980 election)
Re: Americana guesswork
At 8:30 PM -0500 on 1/19/99, Tom Moran wrote: "Alt country"(which are the worst two words in the English language to mass market anything) or whatever you want to call it covers such a wide spectrum of musical tastes that I don't think there can ever be the kind of general consensus needed to raise one band or one sub-genre to any kind of Nirvana-like stature. So far, the numbers just ain't adding up to any kind of "breakthrough" for "alt-what-ever-it-is". The fact is that most people just plain and simple don't like it. You would have to do one hell of a PR job to foist it off on the public. Some country version of Marilyn Manson or Rob Zombie might be able to briefly pull it off and we could ride on their coattails. More sex and drugs! For the most part, we're all a pretty conservative lot, and I doubt our "ethics" would ever allow us to go the route of Marilyn Manson. We need to get used to the fact that "alt country" is always going to be a sub-genre and turn that to our advantage through reciprocity and good old pre-CMJ DIY ethics. I'm done now. I dunno, Tom. I still see a pretty remarkable swing revival going on and you can't say that there's anything particularly alternative going on there, and as I said before, the Squirrel Nut Zippers are riding that crest pretty well these days. Every downside discussed in this thread so far for country applies to swing as well. It's old people's music, it's conservative, and so on. I'm not saying it's inevitable by any means. But so far, every claim that it can't ignores the fact that right now it *is* happening in another genre, and every reason for the claim that it can't happen is countered by that swing revival. A lot of things have to come together, but obviously it *can* happen with alt-country. Bob
