subject:"Re\: CS>blue moons revisited"





>  One thing at a time.
>
> You have claimed that sunlight turns silver ions into particles after the
> process is complete.

No, I never said that at all.
I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the sun.


##  THERE..you just said it...again.


I also never claimed to have verified this with instrumentation, just
pointed out that according to what I know, that should do it (I leave the
lid off for speedier results, in case you were wondering).
Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter which element we're discussing.
They will react with other compounds at their first opportunity.


##  What other compounds?  AND they'll do that, sun or not if they are there.
Once a range of other compounds are made, they MIGHT be photo reactive, but 
that's a whole other subject.
 None of the possible compounds made with Oxygen, Hydrogen and Silver are 
photo reactive.

Silver ions do not change unless there something else for them to change with.
 A silver ion cannot even become a metallic silver particle unless it 
gains an electron.

 There are no free electrons in water.
 There is a set of events that can add an electron that does involve 
sunlight, but the sunlight is not a direct cause.

The glass of the container interacts with the light, not the silver ion.


So yes, I am assuming my method to be sufficient.


## You have not described a method, nor have you backed it with ANY 
information.



But, I don't think I ever
claimed otherwise.

>  I have not seen that happen..within the limits of observation, of course.
>  I have seen TE increase over a few days with or without
> sunlight...sunlight irrelevant...contaminants relevant...normal Hydroxide
> and Oxide reactions relevant, accomplished with or without sunlight, but
> once completed, unchanged for years and years in any observable manner,
> sunlight or none.
>
>  By what mechanism is that possible?
>  Premis:  If it's absolutely impossible, I'm just not going to observe it
> happening.
>  Since I haven't seen it happen, I'd like to know how it's possible.
>
>  Explain within a context that excludes other elements which may or may
> not be there.
>  We are dealing with Hydrogen, Oxygen, Silver, any of their possible
> compounds and light...after power has been removed and after the
> presumably pure product has stabilized.
>
>  How can light change an ion in a manner that it won't change without 
light?

>

Light is a common catalyst in chemical reactions, whie any ion is just dying
to react with whatever it can by its very nature. Also, you are mistaken
about the nature of sealing containers. Screwing the lid back on an empty
food jar does not seal it (packing plants do more than just screw lids on).
And finally, fluctuation in barometric pressure most assuredly is the cause
of gasses passing just such an imperfect barrier.



##  You are mixing your contexts.
 Some silver compounds will use light as a catalyst...true.
 A silver ion is not a compound
Ignoring that one..., nor are any of the possible compounds any of those 
that can use light to change into something else.


 Assuming imperfect barrier, what silver compounds can be formed that use 
light as catalyst given the addition of normal elements found in air?

None.
 You may get more oxides, no light needed and not photo reactive. That 
will change an EC reading.
You may get increased acidification of the water with more dissolved carbon 
dioxide and that will change an EC reading some.
Nitrates could **possibly** form with UV radiation, but glass and water 
blocks most if not all UV. and that will change an EC reading.

 But if it didn't change, what then?
The thing is, the seal is irrelevant. If it has leaked and has contaminated 
the sample, that sample is discarded because it has changed.

 It's the ones that don't change that count.
 Perfect or not, the seal was sufficient.
 There is no such thing as a perfect seal.



Really, you should just rephrase your original claim.
You *believe* your solution was unchanged after five years; your EC meter
test may be all you need to consider that a fact, but you have not proven it.
I encourage you to spend some quality time at the library or with Google,
these answers are not quite as rare as hen's teeth...

I believe you are sincere Ode, and I wish you well. I do not want to go
around and around with you on these matters; it's as simple as definitive
proof vs belief.



  ## I believe that you are sincere too, but your preponderance of proof 
using broad undefined generalities against a set of specific conditions 
defies the rational.

 NOTHING is absolutely provable.
To pick another nit, all there IS, is belief.
 What is it based on?  Theory undefined or experience?
If you have had a different "experience" describe it so that I may look 
into it myself.

 You don't learn ANYTHING till you are wrong.
 If there is any embarrassment involved, I'll get over it...wouldn't be 
the first time.

..and it's not like I haven't experienced the ex

Re: CS>blue moons revisited




  PPM and color..one of those theories taken as gospel that holds no water.
 Particle size and colorincomplete.  Not this or that, but this and that.

ode


At 07:56 AM 10/19/2008 +1030, you wrote:

Hi there Faith,

I have both an EC/TDS blah blah meter and a, 'supposedly', ppm meter.  The 
only reason I use any of them is cos I just don't trust the colour 
business as much as some form of instrument, and no matter how criticised 
they are. It seems the accepted thing is that slight colour indicates a 
particular ppm range but I find that doesn't work all the time, not 
bothered anyway, its much more convenient for me to just use a meter, 
(besides, it looks real scientific too ), and I don't give a hoot 
really about precision so long as I get it within a 'range'.  After all, 
EICS is not rocket science to the majority of people is it, they just want 
to 'make it and take it'.  Even though it's suggested colour is evident at 
10-15ppm I have made a batch in the past of 17ppm, (well it was 21 
initially!), and it remained clear for a couple of  months, which is how 
long it would have lasted till I needed to make another 
batch.  M...maybe my 'lil ol' home made generators are better than 
I realise .


Cheers Neville.



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

  Interesting!

Your Type is INTJ
Strength of the preferences %
Introverted 67
Intuitive 50
Thinking 62
Judging 1

<http://keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=mastermind>INTJ 
<http://keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=mastermind>type 
description by D.Keirsey  [Rational mastermind ]
<http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67&SN=-50&TF=62&JP=0.6>INTJ 
<http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67&SN=-50&TF=62&JP=0.6>Identify 
Your Career with Jung Career Indicator" 
<http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67&SN=-50&TF=62&JP=0.6> 
<http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67&SN=-50&TF=62&JP=0.6>INTJ 
<http://www.humanmetrics.com/vocation/JCI.asp?EI=-67&SN=-50&TF=62&JP=0.6>Famous 
Personalities
<http://typelogic.com/intj.html>INTJ <http://typelogic.com/intj.html>type 
description by J. Butt and M.M. Heiss  INTJs know what they know, and 
perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know.

Qualitative analysis of your type formula

 You are:
   * distinctively expressed introvert
   * moderately expressed intuitive personality
   * distinctively expressed thinking personality
   * slightly expressed judging personality

At 12:21 PM 10/18/2008 -0500, you wrote:

I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar 
with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine 
someones personality type from postings you can get some indications. 
Indi, I would guess you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an 
INTP. Google the type or MBTI and you will get more info than you want. 
The point I want to make is not your type but to point out that you both 
have different personalities that color your view of the world. As do I 
and every member of this list. We each will look at what Ode has done and 
make our own evaluation of the methods and results independently. I 
appreciate the information Ode has provided since it is information I 
would not have otherwise.
You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining what is 
acceptable 'proof' but that does not make any others standard unacceptable 
as a criteria. You can use your criteria without insisting that everyone 
else use it too. The problem with hard scientific proof is that is that 
such proof is often unachievable and that lack of such proof if required 
prevents release of otherwise useful information.
Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is 
sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data.

 - Steve N

- Original Message -
From: Indi 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home.
People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when
your "testing" is so rudimentary.
"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one 
bit.

Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon
all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make
unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't.
:)

indi

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Indi" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>
>
> Quote:
> [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason
> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific
> terms).]
>
> In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home,
> which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer
> me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable
> instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable
> and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the
> knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC
> meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to
> everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other
> than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I don't then
> I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be
> affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved
> with EICS..in their own homes.
>
> It's fine for

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

My problem with you, dude is that you claim I'm speaking in absolutes when 
I clearly stated  being within observational limits, which NO ONE isn't.

There are no absolutes with observation.anywhere.
But somehow there ARE absolutes without it?

Not being able to detect a change indicates no proof there was a change 
until one can be detected.
 I "Proved it within the limits of available proof" [There ARE no 
disciplines that don't have limits ]

 You have proved nothing, in ANY way.

 You don't back up YOUR claims to the contrary with anything but hear say.
 You merely say it MUST have changed and haven't even made any 
observations...OK...HOW?
At the least .explain the mechanism of a possibility so it CAN be 
considered.

You don't even explain why YOU ***think*** something is true...you just 
"believe" in some Godlike theories you won't even identify.
I've run across a hundred theories that obviously are NOT true and a 
hundred more that are obviously incompleteso tell me why I should 
believe one that's not even been stated, is even close to being viable.

You have yet to MAKE a point, all you have is a lousy finger with nothing 
holding it up.
 All you have done is dismiss years of observation, proving it wrong 
BECAUSE you have done none.

 What kind of chicken shit is this?
 TELL ME SOMETHING USEFUL!..I'm listening professor.
There is a LOT I don't know..."educate me"
If you have it, spit it out.
If you don't..go get it.
 You made a challenge, not a point...so step up to it.

Otherwise, it's foolishness, plain and simpleton.

Only when you know absolutely nothing, can you be absolutely right.
 You don't learn a damned thing unless you are wrong.
 Show me WHERE I'm wrong so I can learn something...professor.

Ode

At 10:01 AM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote:

I'm glad the silver worked for your friend. See, reporting anecdotal
evidence is fine. My difference with Ode is that he crossed a line,
saying "unchanged after five years", claiming he "proved it" with an EC
meter and laser pointer. That is the very soul of speaking in absolutes.
:) You and I may both feel it is plausible that someone got some benefit
from a solution stored for years, but if we pronounce the solution
"unchanged", we take on a burden of proof which we cannot hope to satisfy
(unless one of us is a lab tech with access to a well-equipped lab).
That is all I'm saying. It is such an obvious point I'd have been happy to
say it once and be done, but Ode keeps thinking he can "refute" the point.
It just isn't possible to do that, period full stop.

The problem is, there may people on this list who are impressionable
and do not possess the most refined critical thinking skills, and I fear
for such people when I see the anecdotal pronounced as absolute.
We should be more responsible than that!

I for one am very enthusiastic about CS and recommend trying it to nearly
everyone I meet who is plagued with a health issue for which they have no
effective treatment. But I *don't* make extravagant claims, I simply say "it
did this for me; it may help you too". That is IMO the responsible thing to
do.

We are all guinea pigs here, and there is much we do not know. So let's keep
it honest and try to be humble adventurers in search of the truth.
That's all I'm saying, really. I gets my goat when people make extravagant
claims they cannot back, because that can only hurt us all.

Again, apologies to Ode and anyone else I may have offended.
I hope that this clears things up, regarding my intentions.

Best Regards,
indi

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 08:44:47AM +0100, Dee wrote:
> With silver being so sensitive to *any* contaminants, I would have
> thought it would show some colour change or something, if something had
> become contaminated within it.  Would not the taste change?  I gave some
> three year old silver (a bit cruddy) to someone who had never used it
> and was a sceptic, but she had been to the doctors for two months with
> raging diarrhoea and sickness, and she drank the whole 250mls out of
> desperation.  Hey presto, she was cured and is now a silver fan.
> Obviously this was just as efficaceous as any made recently. To me, this
> is 'proof' enough, as it was in a clear bottle and just chucked on a
> shelf somewhere for the three years. dee
>
> Indi wrote:
>> We seem to be on different pages here. When you speak in absolutes, I
>> tend to take it literally. Now I understand,
>> you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on faith". That's fine for
>> you, but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast "EIS unchanges after five
>> years"
>> armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason
>> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific
>> terms).
>>
>>
>
>
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> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
>
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>
> Address Off-

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-20 Thread indi

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:11:33 -0500
"Ruth Bertella"  wrote:

Thanks, Ruth. :)


> LOL and welcome to the loony bin!!!
> 
> Ruth
> 
>   From: Indi 
>   To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:33 PM
>   Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Maybe part of my discomfort lies in the fact that I've become one
> of the people I used to poke fun at, LOL.
> 
>   Cheers,
>   indi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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RE: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-20 Thread Dan Nave

Hey Steve, 
 
I understood that...
 
Dan ;-))




From: Norton, Steve [mailto:stephen.nor...@ngc.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:21 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you
familiar with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot
determine someones personality type from postings you can get some
indications. Indi, I would guess you as something close to an ISTJ and
Ode closer to an INTP. Google the type or MBTI and you will get more
info than you want. The point I want to make is not your type but to
point out that you both have different personalities that color your
view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. We each will
look at what Ode has done and make our own evaluation of the methods and
results independently. I appreciate the information Ode has provided
since it is information I would not have otherwise.
You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining
what is acceptable 'proof' but that does not make any others standard
unacceptable as a criteria. You can use your criteria without insisting
that everyone else use it too. The problem with hard scientific proof is
that is that such proof is often unachievable and that lack of such
proof if required prevents release of otherwise useful information.
Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think
that is sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data.
 - Steve N

- Original Message -
From: Indi 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008
    Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred
dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for
most of us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person
can do at home.
People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is
irresponsible when
your "testing" is so rudimentary.
"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this
point one bit.
Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to
abandon
all principles of critical thinking just because some here want
to make
unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one
doesn't.
:)

indi


On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Indi"

> To: 
    > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>
>
> Quote:
> [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the
simple reason
> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in
scientific
> terms).]
>
> In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in
the home,
> which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you
could steer
> me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more
suitable
> instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more
acceptable
> and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most
grateful in the
> knowledge that there are other instruments available, other
than EC
> meters etc, which are available and affordable over the
counter to
> everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to
me, other
> than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I
don't then
> I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it
must be
> affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is
involved
> with EICS..in their own homes.
>
> It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or
have access
> to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are
just plain 
> ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily
available. 
> Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and
I'll go out
> and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so
that perhaps
> we can all go out and get one.
>
> N.
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal
Silver.
>
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at:
http://silverlist.org
>
> To pos

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-20 Thread Ruth Bertella

LOL and welcome to the loony bin!!!

Ruth

  From: Indi 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:33 PM
  Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

  Maybe part of my discomfort lies in the fact that I've become one of the
  people I used to poke fun at, LOL.

  Cheers,
  indi

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-20 Thread Dee

I don't think I did.  You said that neither can be proved one way or the 
other, but I have proved beyond any shadow of doubt that EIS works, as 
have you and thousands of others!  Totally different to religion.  dee


Neville wrote:
You totally missed my point, which was that anything can be argued to 
death, not whether something works or not!


N.




Neville wrote:
Sorry, but just as a point, EICS is in the same catagory to me as 
religion, consider all the arguements which abound with that 
subject! When it is all torn down it all comes to the same 
thing..belief, faith, blindly following, 
or..conviction!  See my point?  There is nobody on this 
planet that can 'prove' one way or the other, it all comes down to 
the individual and what they believe 





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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-19 Thread Neville

You totally missed my point, which was that anything can be argued to death, 
not whether something works or not!

N.
- Original Message - 
From: "Dee" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

No I don't think it can be compared to religion Neville, because the 
benefits of EIS are absolutely provable.  When my face swelled up like the 
elephant man in a matter of minutes, and swallowing EIS every ten minutes 
for two hours brought it completely down again, *that's* proof that it 
works!   Add to this this the countless times that my dog has stopped 
eating and is laying around listlessly not moving, but after getting EIS 
into him every half hour for three or four hours, he is up and as right as 
rain.  Now dogs cannot be fooled into thinking they are well, they just 
are, or are not.  This is absolute proof to me that it works along with 
many, many other instances.  And, by the way, I am one of the biggest 
sceptics there are, which is why I don't believe in any religion.  dee

Neville wrote:
Sorry, but just as a point, EICS is in the same catagory to me as 
religion, consider all the arguements which abound with that subject! 
When it is all torn down it all comes to the same thing..belief, 
faith, blindly following, or..conviction!  See my point?  There 
is nobody on this planet that can 'prove' one way or the other, it all 
comes down to the individual and what they believe from what they know 
themselves or have read!  EICS is my best friend, (well second best after 
my wife that is) 

N.

-

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-19 Thread Indi

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 06:57:56AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>
>Making the same point, theory is theory.
>  How does sunlight change pure ionic silver into something else?
>

Perhaps more to the point, how does one verify they have "pure ionic silver"?

>
>  What is the alleged mechanism?
>

This has been answered. Ions are always eager to react by nature.

>  The theory was stated as existing, but nothing about what the theory 
> says except the conclusion.
>
>   I've sent samples to several labs..only one returned results that were  
> anywhere close to consistent.
> Colloidal Sciences Lab in NJ  [Frank Key]
>
>  The DNR state water lab in Raleigh sent me averages just on PPM that  
> ranged from something like 28 to 54 PPM for the same sample. [That was a  
> long time ago..like 12 years]
> I seriously doubt it was more than 20 PPM
>
>  Labs aren't always better than a good guess either.
>
> Ode
>

If you had testing done "just for PPM" then that leaves room for the first 
question again, though. If you do not verify that your solution is indeed 
nothing but silver ions in pure H20, you cannot really be sure of anything 
else. Frustrating, but true (and believe me,I share your pain). 

Thorough, competent testing is always going to be better than a guess. 
Unfortunately, it is also terribly expensive, so most of us will have to 
settle for guessing. So long as we don't pronounce our guesses as "proof", 
and understand our limitations as amateurs, there is nothing wrong with that. 
Undesirable side effects from EIS are rare after all, so long as we follow a 
few well known precautions. The worst "horror story" I've seen so far on this 
list is blue moons, so really I feel quite relieved.

Cheers,
indi

[NOTE: comcast was destroying the continuity of this list for me by dropping 
random 
emails (isn't that just comcastic); apologies for any redundancies or omissions 
on my 
part. The new Gmail address should work better. I must recommend avoiding 
comcast if 
you can, their customer service is utterly deplorable.]

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-19 Thread Ode Coyote

At 09:41 AM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote:

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 09:27:55AM -0400, Faith Gagne wrote:
> Dear N.
>
> I don't use anything to 'measure' the CS I use.  I'd like to have
> something for this purpose.  I think Ode sells a meter of some sort.
> Faith G.
>

Ah, interesting. :)

 ##  Why is that "interesting" ?
 I don't recall anyone accusing me of being a "salesman".I suck at it.
I also post the straight skinny on what they do and don't do and their 
limitations.

 In other words, I have meters available, but I don't "sell" them.
In fact, I talk myself out of sales more often than not. 'The best wrong 
tool we have'
 I actually don't care about shipping meters as then I have to field a lot 
of misinterpretations when people misunderstand the instructions and expect 
things they can't give them.
..just as much a pain as a profit. [and the lowest markup on the net on the 
COM-100 at that...the prez of HM Digital actually complained about it once 
insisting that I say they were introductory prices...then he figured out 
how few I buy , no big deal and also no listing as a distributor. ]

 Everything you need except a jar and water.
 Accessories
 Stuff that's useful, but you don't "need" to make CS as inferred by the 
above.

 EC meters can be very good for making *comparisons* if you understand 
what they do, don't do and how they can be fooled.
 For telling what an unknown is.."ballpark"  within limits.  [or TDS 
meter...somewhere in the parking lot of the ball park, maybe on the diamond 
, maybe a half block away...but it beats not being in town at all ]

better than most Hanna  TDSs, some of which are trash.

Ode

>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Neville" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>
>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Indi" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>>
>>
>> Quote:
>> [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason
>> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific
>> terms).]
>>
>> In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home,
>> which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could
>> steer me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable
>> instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable
>> and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the
>> knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC
>> meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to
>> everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me,
>> other than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I
>> don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it
>> must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is
>> involved with EICS..in their own homes.
>>
>> It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access
>> to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain
>> ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available.
>> Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go
>> out and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that
>> perhaps we can all go out and get one.
>>
>> N.
>>
>> --
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>>
>> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
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>>
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>>
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>>
>

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6:01 PM

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-19 Thread Ode Coyote




   Making the same point, theory is theory.
 How does sunlight change pure ionic silver into something else?
 What is the alleged mechanism?
 The theory was stated as existing, but nothing about what the theory says 
except the conclusion.


  I've sent samples to several labs..only one returned results that were 
anywhere close to consistent.

Colloidal Sciences Lab in NJ  [Frank Key]

 The DNR state water lab in Raleigh sent me averages just on PPM that 
ranged from something like 28 to 54 PPM for the same sample. [That was a 
long time ago..like 12 years]

I seriously doubt it was more than 20 PPM

 Labs aren't always better than a good guess either.

Ode


At 09:40 AM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote:



You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home.
People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when
your "testing" is so rudimentary.
"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one 
bit.

Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon
all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make
unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't.
:)

indi



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-19 Thread Ode Coyote




About all there is is




 Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer for total silver content...no 
details between ionic and colloidal. $200 fixer upper - $250,000


 Malvern particle sizer ~ $40,000  ..no details on what the particles are

 Some sort of microscope http://silverpuppy.com/csh2o2.html that actually 
sees things as they are...vs... a TEM or SEM that doesn't tell you much of 
anything  but can be bought cheap on the surplus market


 Big centrifuge to separate ions from particles.

Ode




Quote:
[armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
terms).]


In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, 
which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer 
me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable 
instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable 
and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the 
knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC 
meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to 
everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other 
than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I don't then 
I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be 
affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved 
with EICS..in their own homes.


It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access 
to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain 
ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. 
Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out 
and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps 
we can all go out and get one.


N.

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6:01 PM

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-19 Thread Dee

No I don't think it can be compared to religion Neville, because the 
benefits of EIS are absolutely provable.  When my face swelled up like 
the elephant man in a matter of minutes, and swallowing EIS every ten 
minutes for two hours brought it completely down again, *that's* proof 
that it works!   Add to this this the countless times that my dog has 
stopped eating and is laying around listlessly not moving, but after 
getting EIS into him every half hour for three or four hours, he is up 
and as right as rain.  Now dogs cannot be fooled into thinking they are 
well, they just are, or are not.  This is absolute proof to me that it 
works along with many, many other instances.  And, by the way, I am one 
of the biggest sceptics there are, which is why I don't believe in any 
religion.  dee


Neville wrote:
Sorry, but just as a point, EICS is in the same catagory to me as 
religion, consider all the arguements which abound with that subject!  
When it is all torn down it all comes to the same thing..belief, 
faith, blindly following, or..conviction!  See my point?  
There is nobody on this planet that can 'prove' one way or the other, 
it all comes down to the individual and what they believe from what 
they know themselves or have read!  EICS is my best friend, (well 
second best after my wife that is) 


N.

-



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Quote:
[Maybe part of my discomfort lies in the fact that I've become one of the 
people I used to poke fun at, LOL.]

That little piece of 'humility' spoke volumes to me indi, maybe even moreso 
than you're aware at the moment, welcome to the club of which I am a member, 
in fact I'm probably the president of that club. 

And your other point regarding the "hard data", yeah I hope I'm mistaken too 
but I'm not putting any long playing records on while I'm waiting.

Neville. 

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 08:36:39AM +1030, Neville wrote:
> Hey, I agree 100% my friend, you are 'absolutely' right in what you are  
> saying, no argument from me there, but to me there are no 'absolutes' 
> with this stuff and from all the information I have perused I don't 
> believe there is a brain on the planet that will ever get a total 
> understanding of EICS, (yeah and that could be argued to infinity I know 
> and I'm definitely not going there), and all the variables and 'gremlins' 
> that tend to creep in and do one thing or another.  Oh, this is just a 
> personal perspective also, I would not presume to speak for anyone else, 
> only myself.  You're not getting my dander up cos I don't really care 
> about the nitty gritties of EICS anymore, been there done that and I 
> ain't going to watch the re-run.  I think most people have enough 
> information available to them even if it's just to simply satisfy their 
> own minds with the product they produce at home.
>
> Yeah, I know that I can get it analysed in a lab, and I have done in the  
> past, but it doesn't change the fact that I could probably make another  
> batch tomorrow while seemingly doing everything in the exact same manner 
> and I have no doubt that the result will come back different from the 
> first. Most people don't want, and can't afford anyway, to go to the 
> 'enth' degree in lab analysis of their home made EICS as they are 
> satisfied with all the information they read in forums such as this, and 
> using their meters no matter how inaccurate they may be.  It's only the 
> minority who may want to know more 'science' of it but the majority just 
> want to make it, learn how to make it properly, get an idea of what it is 
> they are making, and then take it.  I know where you are coming from 
> though Indi, and am only speaking for myself here.  I have a sneaky 
> feeling though that when it comes to EICS there may not be a 'data is 
> data' thing, too many outside influences and/or variables which are not 
> understood or within the lay-mans control, and EICS is generally a 
> substance which that same 'lay-man' makes and uses for his/her own 
> benefit if you get my drift.  This, to me, is why there will always be 
> this hoo-haa about EICS instead of just letting it go and being  
> satisfied with a basic substance which has been proven efficacious when 
> used for medicinal purposes.  Personally again, I don't believe there 
> will ever be a 'data is data' thing, well not in my lifetime anyway.
>
> Cheers...Neville.
>

I'm sure you are right about the "most people" point, but I hope you're
mistaken about the "never will be hard data" point. 

Maybe part of my discomfort lies in the fact that I've become one of the
people I used to poke fun at, LOL.

Cheers,
indi






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Re: CS>blue moons revisited



>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Faith Gagne" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:48 AM
>>> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear indi:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you 
>>>> are right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you 
>>>> are discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the 
>>>> condition of CS when stored for a while,  and wonder how much it 
>>>> has changed, and what its present condition is.  I personally 
>>>> cannot afford to get lab analysis on older CS.  I wish I had some 
>>>> guidelines as to how long to keep it before chucking it and making 
>>>> some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.

Hi Faith,

I had not seen that email until Neville quoted it, sorry I seem to be
missing some emails from this list for some reason (maybe a Comcast thing, 
I am learning lately that "comcastic" is actually a synonym for "shoddy").

I agree with Neville, in that there is probably no reason to dicard it.
Disagreeable side effects seem to be quite rare. But if I had a critical
need, I'd be sure and make some fresh.

I cannot afford lab analysis either at this time, and that bothers me a lot.
My plan is to gather the equipment and chemicals I need over time to test it
myself (perhaps in six or seven months I'll be able to get it together to do
that). Though I certainly am not qualified in any formal way and will not be 
selling services or anything. :) I just want to know, as best I can. Plus 
perhaps if someone independent comes up with something "nearly credible", 
some bona-fide experts might be persuaded to take an interest.
Thanks for the kind words.

Cheers,
indi









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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Sorry, but just as a point, EICS is in the same catagory to me as religion, 
consider all the arguements which abound with that subject!  When it is all 
torn down it all comes to the same thing..belief, faith, blindly 
following, or..conviction!  See my point?  There is nobody on this 
planet that can 'prove' one way or the other, it all comes down to the 
individual and what they believe from what they know themselves or have 
read!  EICS is my best friend, (well second best after my wife that is) 


N.

- Original Message - 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Thanks very much.  I would prefer not to chuck it but indi brings up a 
very good point, don't you think?   Faith G.


- Original Message - 
From: "Neville" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Don't ever 'chuck it', filter it or 'skim' it if you want or use it 
topically, but you won't ever need to 'chuck it' Faith, [my conviction].


N.

- Original Message ----- 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



Dear indi:

Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you are 
right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are 
discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS 
when stored for a while,  and wonder how much it has changed, and what 
its present condition is.  I personally cannot afford to get lab 
analysis on older CS.  I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to 
keep it before chucking it and making some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Oh, yeah, sure Faith, and quite rightly so, Ode has points also, I have 
points and you have points and so do many others, and I'm not going to get 
involved any deeper than I have done with my couple of responses to indi.  I 
know only too well what the discussion is about and I now have an 
opportunity to 're-avow' what I have always maintainedmy personal 
convictions!  Others can argue the toss for an eternity for all I care, I am 
satisfied, but I am only satisfied from the point of view that the VAST 
majority of people just want to know that they have a very powerful tool in 
their homes which can be used to  GREAT advantage.  I've read and researched 
to the point of 'vomitting' and refuse to do any more.  Most of us are not 
chemists or physisists but just plain people who want to know what the hell 
it is they are making in their kitchens.


Hey, (even though I was stunned to see my rather large and private email to 
Mike appear in this forum for all to see), he inadvertantly backed up why I 
tend to make statements rather than perpetuate all the hoo-haa about EICS by 
stating that he took CS with salt in it for a year.  See, I've learnt a long 
time ago what NOT to do from research and reading information from those who 
have gone before me, (a few names here, including Mike I may add, people 
such as these have been my 'tutors' or 'mentors' if you like), and believe I 
will not get into a situation such as that.  I don't pretend for one second 
to know it all about EICS but I do believe I know enough to not perpetuate 
all this 'blueing' business.  Time will tell I spose but I won't be drawn 
into any of this 'it could do this', or 'it could do that', give me the 
proof that 'pure' EICS will do this or do that and then I will know.  I 
don't believe I have seen proof yet, a lot of if's and maybes, but not 
proof!  Until I turn blue I will not be moved.  Others can call me 
headstrong or whatever they choose, I don't particularly care, I stand up 
for what I believe in, it's as simple as that, however 
ignorant/arrogant/naive or misguided that may appear to some.


Neville.

- Original Message - 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Thanks very much.  I would prefer not to chuck it but indi brings up a 
very good point, don't you think?   Faith G.


- Original Message - 
From: "Neville" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Don't ever 'chuck it', filter it or 'skim' it if you want or use it 
topically, but you won't ever need to 'chuck it' Faith, [my conviction].


N.

- Original Message - 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



Dear indi:

Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you are 
right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are 
discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS 
when stored for a while,  and wonder how much it has changed, and what 
its present condition is.  I personally cannot afford to get lab 
analysis on older CS.  I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to 
keep it before chucking it and making some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Faith Gagne

Thanks very much.  I would prefer not to chuck it but indi brings up a very 
good point, don't you think?   Faith G.

- Original Message - 
From: "Neville" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Don't ever 'chuck it', filter it or 'skim' it if you want or use it 
topically, but you won't ever need to 'chuck it' Faith, [my conviction].

N.

- Original Message - 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Dear indi:

Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you are 
right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are 
discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS 
when stored for a while,  and wonder how much it has changed, and what 
its present condition is.  I personally cannot afford to get lab analysis 
on older CS.  I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to keep it 
before chucking it and making some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Don't ever 'chuck it', filter it or 'skim' it if you want or use it 
topically, but you won't ever need to 'chuck it' Faith, [my conviction].

N.

- Original Message - 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Dear indi:

Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you are 
right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are 
discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS 
when stored for a while,  and wonder how much it has changed, and what its 
present condition is.  I personally cannot afford to get lab analysis on 
older CS.  I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to keep it before 
chucking it and making some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.

- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 05:20:32PM +0100, Dee wrote:

So by that thinking, then are we all guilty on this list of giving EIS
to others and telling them of its wonders?  After all, if it can't be
'proved' does this mean to say that it can't be true?  Even though we
know categorically that is does work?  dee

That isn't what I said at all.
I am simply pointing out that when we declare our anecdotal evidence as
scientific fact, we are not being truthful. I give people CS and tell 
them

what it did for me, and I think that's a fine thing to do.
But we must accept our position as guinea pigs and as amatuers; unless 
you

are a doctor, medical researcher, or chemist, you cannot honestly go much
beyond presenting anecdotal evidence, and you certainly cannot* make 
claims

about a given solution being "unchanged" after years of storage.

I feel so misunderstood now

indi

*Well you *can*, but it isn't credible to do so.

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Hey, I agree 100% my friend, you are 'absolutely' right in what you are 
saying, no argument from me there, but to me there are no 'absolutes' with 
this stuff and from all the information I have perused I don't believe there 
is a brain on the planet that will ever get a total understanding of EICS, 
(yeah and that could be argued to infinity I know and I'm definitely not 
going there), and all the variables and 'gremlins' that tend to creep in and 
do one thing or another.  Oh, this is just a personal perspective also, I 
would not presume to speak for anyone else, only myself.  You're not getting 
my dander up cos I don't really care about the nitty gritties of EICS 
anymore, been there done that and I ain't going to watch the re-run.  I 
think most people have enough information available to them even if it's 
just to simply satisfy their own minds with the product they produce at 
home.


Yeah, I know that I can get it analysed in a lab, and I have done in the 
past, but it doesn't change the fact that I could probably make another 
batch tomorrow while seemingly doing everything in the exact same manner and 
I have no doubt that the result will come back different from the first. 
Most people don't want, and can't afford anyway, to go to the 'enth' degree 
in lab analysis of their home made EICS as they are satisfied with all the 
information they read in forums such as this, and using their meters no 
matter how inaccurate they may be.  It's only the minority who may want to 
know more 'science' of it but the majority just want to make it, learn how 
to make it properly, get an idea of what it is they are making, and then 
take it.  I know where you are coming from though Indi, and am only speaking 
for myself here.  I have a sneaky feeling though that when it comes to EICS 
there may not be a 'data is data' thing, too many outside influences and/or 
variables which are not understood or within the lay-mans control, and EICS 
is generally a substance which that same 'lay-man' makes and uses for 
his/her own benefit if you get my drift.  This, to me, is why there will 
always be this hoo-haa about EICS instead of just letting it go and being 
satisfied with a basic substance which has been proven efficacious when used 
for medicinal purposes.  Personally again, I don't believe there will ever 
be a 'data is data' thing, well not in my lifetime anyway.


Cheers...Neville.

- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited





You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of 
us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at 
home.

People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible 
when

your "testing" is so rudimentary.
"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one 
bit.

Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon
all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make
unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't.
:)

indi


On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Indi" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Quote:
[armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason
that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific
terms).]

In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home,
which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer
me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable
instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable
and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the
knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC
meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to
everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other
than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I don't then
I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be
affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved
with EICS..in their own homes.

It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access
to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain
ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available.
Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out
and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps

Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Hi there Faith,

I have both an EC/TDS blah blah meter and a, 'supposedly', ppm meter.  The 
only reason I use any of them is cos I just don't trust the colour business 
as much as some form of instrument, and no matter how criticised they are. 
It seems the accepted thing is that slight colour indicates a particular ppm 
range but I find that doesn't work all the time, not bothered anyway, its 
much more convenient for me to just use a meter, (besides, it looks real 
scientific too ), and I don't give a hoot really about precision so long 
as I get it within a 'range'.  After all, EICS is not rocket science to the 
majority of people is it, they just want to 'make it and take it'.  Even 
though it's suggested colour is evident at 10-15ppm I have made a batch in 
the past of 17ppm, (well it was 21 initially!), and it remained clear for a 
couple of  months, which is how long it would have lasted till I needed to 
make another batch.  M...maybe my 'lil ol' home made generators are 
better than I realise .


Cheers Neville.


- Original Message - 
From: "Faith Gagne" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



Dear N.

I don't use anything to 'measure' the CS I use.  I'd like to have 
something for this purpose.  I think Ode sells a meter of some sort. 
Faith G.




- Original Message - 
From: "Neville" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited




- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Quote:
[armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
terms).]


In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, 
which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer 
me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable 
instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable 
and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the 
knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC 
meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to 
everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other 
than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I don't then 
I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be 
affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved 
with EICS..in their own homes.


It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access 
to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain 
ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. 
Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out 
and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps 
we can all go out and get one.


N.

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 01:14:59PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>
>   Within context.
>  If there are no observable changes, there are no changes in any 
> practical sense.
>  There are ALWAYS limits to observation.
>
>   I assure you that I am well aware of how tricky an EC meter can be 
> after going round and round with Hanna Tech for 3 months asking them why 
> I was repeatedly observing something when using their calibration fluid 
> and them denying that I could be.
>
> They finally said I was too stupid to ask questions.
>  I told them they were too defensive of their product to provide answers  
> to a very simple question.
>
> Why does the number keep rising and rising when I try to calibrate this meter?
>  Telling me it can't doesn't cut it...it IS.
>
>  I had to figure it out myself when a simple one liner in the 
> instructions would have provided the answer:
>
>  "Don't hold the stupid sachet in your hand while calibrating the  
> meter...idiot.  Salesmen lie and tech is paid from sales. "
>
> ie "Temperature compensation isn't all we made it out to be" [But we'll  
> never admit it ]
>
>  I don't care about your ad copy, just tell me about the limits and I'll  
> go from there...tech turkeys.
>
>
>  One thing at a time.
>
> You have claimed that sunlight turns silver ions into particles after the 
> process is complete.

No, I never said that at all.
I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the sun.
I also never claimed to have verified this with instrumentation, just 
pointed out that according to what I know, that should do it (I leave the
lid off for speedier results, in case you were wondering).
Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter which element we're discussing.
They will react with other compounds at their first opportunity.
So yes, I am assuming my method to be sufficient. But, I don't think I ever
claimed otherwise.

>  I have not seen that happen..within the limits of observation, of course.
>  I have seen TE increase over a few days with or without  
> sunlight...sunlight irrelevant...contaminants relevant...normal Hydroxide 
> and Oxide reactions relevant, accomplished with or without sunlight, but  
> once completed, unchanged for years and years in any observable manner,  
> sunlight or none.
>
>  By what mechanism is that possible?
>  Premis:  If it's absolutely impossible, I'm just not going to observe it 
> happening.
>  Since I haven't seen it happen, I'd like to know how it's possible.
>
>  Explain within a context that excludes other elements which may or may  
> not be there.
>  We are dealing with Hydrogen, Oxygen, Silver, any of their possible  
> compounds and light...after power has been removed and after the 
> presumably pure product has stabilized.
>
>  How can light change an ion in a manner that it won't change without light?
>

Light is a common catalyst in chemical reactions, whie any ion is just dying
to react with whatever it can by its very nature. Also, you are mistaken 
about the nature of sealing containers. Screwing the lid back on an empty 
food jar does not seal it (packing plants do more than just screw lids on). 
And finally, fluctuation in barometric pressure most assuredly is the cause 
of gasses passing just such an imperfect barrier.

Really, you should just rephrase your original claim.
You *believe* your solution was unchanged after five years; your EC meter
test may be all you need to consider that a fact, but you have not proven it.
I encourage you to spend some quality time at the library or with Google, 
these answers are not quite as rare as hen's teeth... 

I believe you are sincere Ode, and I wish you well. I do not want to go 
around and around with you on these matters; it's as simple as definitive 
proof vs belief. Belief is fine I guess, if you can believe in it (and if 
it doesn't hurt you), but I really like to have definitive proof myself. 
When no definitive proof exists, I don't mind properly qualified anecdotal 
evidence ("properly qualified" is where we got at odds). I have accepted 
your story as anecdotal evidence, and will bear it in mind. I'm not calling 
you a liar, if that's what you think. I'm just a skeptical person, which (IMO) 
is only sensible, after all. 

indi

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Ode Coyote

  Within context.
 If there are no observable changes, there are no changes in any practical 
sense.

 There are ALWAYS limits to observation.

  I assure you that I am well aware of how tricky an EC meter can be after 
going round and round with Hanna Tech for 3 months asking them why I was 
repeatedly observing something when using their calibration fluid and them 
denying that I could be.

They finally said I was too stupid to ask questions.
 I told them they were too defensive of their product to provide answers 
to a very simple question.

Why does the number keep rising and rising when I try to calibrate this meter?
 Telling me it can't doesn't cut it...it IS.

 I had to figure it out myself when a simple one liner in the instructions 
would have provided the answer:

 "Don't hold the stupid sachet in your hand while calibrating the 
meter...idiot.  Salesmen lie and tech is paid from sales. "

ie "Temperature compensation isn't all we made it out to be" [But we'll 
never admit it ]

 I don't care about your ad copy, just tell me about the limits and I'll 
go from there...tech turkeys.

 One thing at a time.

You have claimed that sunlight turns silver ions into particles after the 
process is complete.

 I have not seen that happen..within the limits of observation, of course.
 I have seen TE increase over a few days with or without 
sunlight...sunlight irrelevant...contaminants relevant...normal Hydroxide 
and Oxide reactions relevant, accomplished with or without sunlight, but 
once completed, unchanged for years and years in any observable manner, 
sunlight or none.

 By what mechanism is that possible?
 Premis:  If it's absolutely impossible, I'm just not going to observe it 
happening.

 Since I haven't seen it happen, I'd like to know how it's possible.

 Explain within a context that excludes other elements which may or may 
not be there.
 We are dealing with Hydrogen, Oxygen, Silver, any of their possible 
compounds and light...after power has been removed and after the presumably 
pure product has stabilized.

 How can light change an ion in a manner that it won't change without light?

Ode

At 12:23 PM 10/17/2008 -0400, you wrote:

We seem to be on different pages here.
When you speak in absolutes, I tend to take it literally. Now I understand,
you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on faith". That's fine for you,
but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast "EIS unchanges after five years"
armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that
those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms).

I'm sorry if I've upset you, Ode. That was not my intention. But I do not
feel the "onus" you seem to assign to me, as I am not the one making
extravagant claims based on rudimentary observation; I'm just trying to
provide some perspective.

Peace,
indi

On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 10/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:08:32PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >   If the container is non reactive
>>
>> That would have to include the lid of course.
>> :)
>
>  ##  Unless you slosh the contents around, there is no direct contact
> with the lid.
>
>
>> >  there is little air space and all you
>> > have is water, water byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive,
>> > then it has nothing to change into.
>>
>> Yes, but litlle air space isn't zero air space, and your container is 
bound to

>> contain *something* besides pure H2O and silver ions.
>
> ##  If they don't react in a few days, they probably won't, ever.
>  Contaminants DO cause problems and sometimes glass itself can leach out
> them over time if contaminants have impregnated the glass.
>  But that's not the topic in discussion. The topic is change of the EIS
> itself, in LONG term storage..not.. changing.
>  Generally if it does change, it will do so within a few days and if it
> doesn't [and most doesn't] there are no extraneous problems that are
> relevant to the "EIS" itself.
>
>
>> >  You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few days, but once
>> > the EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark.
>>
>> If it is perfectly sealed, perhaps. Otherwise no.
>
> ##  You have years of observation to back that up?
> Due to equalized inner and out gas pressures, any tight seal is
> essentially perfect.
>
>
>> > If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may continue to
>> > stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved water
>> > byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive.
>> >  In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally gone yellow.
>>
>> Actually, *any* visual change implies chemical reaction, usually 
induced or

>> facilitated by light or heat.
>
> ## Heat and light will makes EIS cross some reaction thresholds for sure,
> but only if the water is contaminated with something to react with.
>  "Contaminated" EIS is not the topic of discussion.

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread cking001

Never did understand the flap about storage time of cs.

Other than the discussion is interesting, and the experimenters
results, it's kinda a big "So What?".

I make a jug, or give a jugful away, and when it's used up I make some
more.
I dont NEED it to last for years or even months.

Instead of storage, just pack away a kit for generating as needed.

I know I can't save the world, so I don't try to convince the world.
Hell, I have enough of a problem trying to convince my wife.

Chuck

If you  throw  a  cat out of the car window,  does  it  become kitty
  litter?

On 10/18/2008 1:18:57 PM, Faith Gagne (jitte...@gis.net) wrote:
> Dear indi:
> 
> Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you are
> right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are
> discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS
> when
> stored for a while,  and wonder how much it has changed, and what its
> present condition is.  I personally cannot afford to get lab analysis on
> older CS.  I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to keep it before
> chucking it and making some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Indi" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
> 
> 
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 05:20:32PM +0100, Dee wrote:
> >> So by that thinking, then are we all guilty on this list of giving EIS
> >> to others and telling them of its wonders?  After all, if it
> can't be
> >> 'proved' does this mean to say that it can't be true?  Even
> though we
> >> know categorically that is does work?  dee
> >>
> >
> > That
> isn't what I said at all.
> > I am simply pointing out that when we declare our anecdota
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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:21:22PM -0500, Norton, Steve wrote:
> I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar with 
> the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine someones 
> personality type from postings you can get some indications. Indi, I would 
> guess 
> you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an INTP. Google the type 
> or 
> MBTI and you will get more info than you want. The point I want to make is 
> not 
> your type but to point out that you both have different personalities that 
> color 
> your view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. 

 Not me! 
Kidding, I'm kidding...
:)



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Norton, Steve

I apologize iin advance for getting in this issue but are you familiar with the 
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MTBI)? While you cannot determine someones 
personality type from postings you can get some indications. Indi, I would 
guess you as something close to an ISTJ and Ode closer to an INTP. Google the 
type or MBTI and you will get more info than you want. The point I want to make 
is not your type but to point out that you both have different personalities 
that color your view of the world. As do I and every member of this list. We 
each will look at what Ode has done and make our own evaluation of the methods 
and results independently. I appreciate the information Ode has provided since 
it is information I would not have otherwise. 
You, Ode and I each have different standards for determining what is acceptable 
'proof' but that does not make any others standard unacceptable as a criteria. 
You can use your criteria without insisting that everyone else use it too. The 
problem with hard scientific proof is that is that such proof is often 
unachievable and that lack of such proof if required prevents release of 
otherwise useful information. 
Ode provided his information and test methodology and I think that is 
sufficient for one to understand and evaluate the data. 
 - Steve N

- Original Message -
From: Indi 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Oct 18 08:40:18 2008
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home.
People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when 
your "testing" is so rudimentary.
"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit.
Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon
all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make 
unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't.
:)

indi


On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Indi" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>
>
> Quote:
> [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
> terms).]
>
> In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, 
> which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer 
> me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable 
> instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable 
> and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the 
> knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC 
> meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to 
> everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other 
> than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I don't then 
> I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be 
> affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved 
> with EICS..in their own homes.
>
> It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access 
> to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain  
> ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available.  
> Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out 
> and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps 
> we can all go out and get one.
>
> N. 
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
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>   
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Faith Gagne


Dear indi:

Thank you very much for your efforts.  I think, after all, that you are 
right about anecdotal evidence. I appreciate the fact that you are 
discussing this.  Truthfully, I have wondered about the condition of CS when 
stored for a while,  and wonder how much it has changed, and what its 
present condition is.  I personally cannot afford to get lab analysis on 
older CS.  I wish I had some guidelines as to how long to keep it before 
chucking it and making some new.  Thanks again.  Faith G.



- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 05:20:32PM +0100, Dee wrote:

So by that thinking, then are we all guilty on this list of giving EIS
to others and telling them of its wonders?  After all, if it can't be
'proved' does this mean to say that it can't be true?  Even though we
know categorically that is does work?  dee



That isn't what I said at all.
I am simply pointing out that when we declare our anecdotal evidence as
scientific fact, we are not being truthful. I give people CS and tell them
what it did for me, and I think that's a fine thing to do.
But we must accept our position as guinea pigs and as amatuers; unless you
are a doctor, medical researcher, or chemist, you cannot honestly go much
beyond presenting anecdotal evidence, and you certainly cannot* make 
claims

about a given solution being "unchanged" after years of storage.

I feel so misunderstood now


indi

*Well you *can*, but it isn't credible to do so.



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 05:20:32PM +0100, Dee wrote:
> So by that thinking, then are we all guilty on this list of giving EIS  
> to others and telling them of its wonders?  After all, if it can't be  
> 'proved' does this mean to say that it can't be true?  Even though we  
> know categorically that is does work?  dee
>

That isn't what I said at all. 
I am simply pointing out that when we declare our anecdotal evidence as
scientific fact, we are not being truthful. I give people CS and tell them
what it did for me, and I think that's a fine thing to do. 
But we must accept our position as guinea pigs and as amatuers; unless you
are a doctor, medical researcher, or chemist, you cannot honestly go much
beyond presenting anecdotal evidence, and you certainly cannot* make claims
about a given solution being "unchanged" after years of storage. 

I feel so misunderstood now

indi

*Well you *can*, but it isn't credible to do so.

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Dee

So by that thinking, then are we all guilty on this list of giving EIS 
to others and telling them of its wonders?  After all, if it can't be 
'proved' does this mean to say that it can't be true?  Even though we 
know categorically that is does work?  dee


Indi wrote:

You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home.
People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when 
your "testing" is so rudimentary.

"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit.
  
  



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

I'm glad the silver worked for your friend. See, reporting anecdotal
evidence is fine. My difference with Ode is that he crossed a line,
saying "unchanged after five years", claiming he "proved it" with an EC
meter and laser pointer. That is the very soul of speaking in absolutes.
:) You and I may both feel it is plausible that someone got some benefit
from a solution stored for years, but if we pronounce the solution
"unchanged", we take on a burden of proof which we cannot hope to satisfy 
(unless one of us is a lab tech with access to a well-equipped lab).
That is all I'm saying. It is such an obvious point I'd have been happy to
say it once and be done, but Ode keeps thinking he can "refute" the point.
It just isn't possible to do that, period full stop.

The problem is, there may people on this list who are impressionable
and do not possess the most refined critical thinking skills, and I fear
for such people when I see the anecdotal pronounced as absolute.
We should be more responsible than that!

I for one am very enthusiastic about CS and recommend trying it to nearly 
everyone I meet who is plagued with a health issue for which they have no 
effective treatment. But I *don't* make extravagant claims, I simply say "it
did this for me; it may help you too". That is IMO the responsible thing to
do. 

We are all guinea pigs here, and there is much we do not know. So let's keep 
it honest and try to be humble adventurers in search of the truth.
That's all I'm saying, really. I gets my goat when people make extravagant
claims they cannot back, because that can only hurt us all.

Again, apologies to Ode and anyone else I may have offended.
I hope that this clears things up, regarding my intentions.

Best Regards,
indi

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 08:44:47AM +0100, Dee wrote:
> With silver being so sensitive to *any* contaminants, I would have  
> thought it would show some colour change or something, if something had  
> become contaminated within it.  Would not the taste change?  I gave some  
> three year old silver (a bit cruddy) to someone who had never used it  
> and was a sceptic, but she had been to the doctors for two months with  
> raging diarrhoea and sickness, and she drank the whole 250mls out of  
> desperation.  Hey presto, she was cured and is now a silver fan.   
> Obviously this was just as efficaceous as any made recently. To me, this  
> is 'proof' enough, as it was in a clear bottle and just chucked on a  
> shelf somewhere for the three years. dee
>
> Indi wrote:
>> We seem to be on different pages here. When you speak in absolutes, I 
>> tend to take it literally. Now I understand,
>> you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on faith". That's fine for 
>> you, but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast "EIS unchanges after five 
>> years"
>> armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
>> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
>> terms). 
>>
>> 
>
>
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> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
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>   
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 09:27:55AM -0400, Faith Gagne wrote:
> Dear N.
>
> I don't use anything to 'measure' the CS I use.  I'd like to have 
> something for this purpose.  I think Ode sells a meter of some sort.  
> Faith G.
>


Ah, interesting. :)


>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Neville" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>
>
>>
>> - Original Message ----- From: "Indi" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>>
>>
>> Quote:
>> [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
>> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
>> terms).]
>>
>> In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home,  
>> which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could 
>> steer me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable 
>> instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable 
>> and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the 
>> knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC 
>> meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to 
>> everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, 
>> other than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I 
>> don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it 
>> must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is 
>> involved with EICS..in their own homes.
>>
>> It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access 
>> to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain 
>> ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. 
>> Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go 
>> out and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that 
>> perhaps we can all go out and get one.
>>
>> N.
>>
>> --
>> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>>
>> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
>>
>> To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
>>
>> Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com
>>
>> The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
>>
>> List maintainer: Mike Devour 
>>
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited



You'd probably want to send it to a lab. Around three hundred dollars for
true answers. I realize it isn't cheap (or even affordable for most of us).
A good chemical analysis is not something an untrained person can do at home.
People get degrees in chemistry, you know. :)

As I've said before, my point is speaking in ABSOLUTES is irresponsible when 
your "testing" is so rudimentary.
"Feelings", anecdotal evidence, belief, etc do not disprove this point one bit.
Sorry if that gvets people's dander up, but I am not about to abandon
all principles of critical thinking just because some here want to make 
unsubstantiated claims. Data is data. Either one has it or one doesn't.
:)

indi


On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:45:05PM +1030, Neville wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Indi" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
>
>
> Quote:
> [armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
> that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
> terms).]
>
> In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, 
> which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer 
> me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable 
> instrument so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable 
> and precise manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the 
> knowledge that there are other instruments available, other than EC 
> meters etc, which are available and affordable over the counter to 
> everyone in their homes, but I don't know what is available to me, other 
> than the instrument I currently use.  If you know something I don't then 
> I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be 
> affordable and available over the counter to everyone who is involved 
> with EICS..in their own homes.
>
> It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access 
> to more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain  
> ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available.  
> Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out 
> and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps 
> we can all go out and get one.
>
> N. 
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
>
> To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
>
> Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com
>
> The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
>
> List maintainer: Mike Devour 
>   
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Faith Gagne


Dear N.

I don't use anything to 'measure' the CS I use.  I'd like to have something 
for this purpose.  I think Ode sells a meter of some sort.  Faith G.




- Original Message - 
From: "Neville" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited




- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Quote:
[armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
terms).]


In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, 
which is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer 
me in the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable instrument 
so that I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable and precise 
manner.  I for one would certainly be most grateful in the knowledge that 
there are other instruments available, other than EC meters etc, which are 
available and affordable over the counter to everyone in their homes, but 
I don't know what is available to me, other than the instrument I 
currently use.  If you know something I don't then I would be humbly 
grateful if you would pass it on, but it must be affordable and available 
over the counter to everyone who is involved with EICS..in their 
own homes.


It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access to 
more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain 
ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. 
Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out 
and get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps 
we can all go out and get one.


N.

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

- Original Message - 
From: "Indi" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Quote:
[armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that 
those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms).]

In the absence of suitable laboratory testing equipment, in the home, which 
is where most users involved with EICS are, perhaps you could steer me in 
the direction of a more accurate, better or more suitable instrument so that 
I may be able to assess my EICS in a more acceptable and precise manner.  I 
for one would certainly be most grateful in the knowledge that there are 
other instruments available, other than EC meters etc, which are available 
and affordable over the counter to everyone in their homes, but I don't know 
what is available to me, other than the instrument I currently use.  If you 
know something I don't then I would be humbly grateful if you would pass it 
on, but it must be affordable and available over the counter to everyone who 
is involved with EICS..in their own homes.

It's fine for those who may be scientifically minded and/or have access to 
more precise instruments, but I think most EICS users are just plain 
ordinary folk using equipment that is affordable and readily available. 
Tell me what else I can use that fits the above criteria and I'll go out and 
get one, but remember, it must fit the above criteria so that perhaps we can 
all go out and get one.

N. 

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Why am I not surprised to hear that!

N.
- Original Message - 
From: "Dee" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

With silver being so sensitive to *any* contaminants, I would have thought 
it would show some colour change or something, if something had become 
contaminated within it.  Would not the taste change?  I gave some three 
year old silver (a bit cruddy) to someone who had never used it and was a 
sceptic, but she had been to the doctors for two months with raging 
diarrhoea and sickness, and she drank the whole 250mls out of desperation. 
Hey presto, she was cured and is now a silver fan.  Obviously this was 
just as efficaceous as any made recently. To me, this is 'proof' enough, 
as it was in a clear bottle and just chucked on a shelf somewhere for the 
three years. dee

Indi wrote:
We seem to be on different pages here. When you speak in absolutes, I 
tend to take it literally. Now I understand,
you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on faith". That's fine for 
you, but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast "EIS unchanges after five 
years"
armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason 
that those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific 
terms).

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-18 Thread Dee

With silver being so sensitive to *any* contaminants, I would have 
thought it would show some colour change or something, if something had 
become contaminated within it.  Would not the taste change?  I gave some 
three year old silver (a bit cruddy) to someone who had never used it 
and was a sceptic, but she had been to the doctors for two months with 
raging diarrhoea and sickness, and she drank the whole 250mls out of 
desperation.  Hey presto, she was cured and is now a silver fan.  
Obviously this was just as efficaceous as any made recently. To me, this 
is 'proof' enough, as it was in a clear bottle and just chucked on a 
shelf somewhere for the three years. dee


Indi wrote:
We seem to be on different pages here. 
When you speak in absolutes, I tend to take it literally. Now I understand,
you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on faith". That's fine for you, 
but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast "EIS unchanges after five years"
armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that 
those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms). 

  
  



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RE: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-17 Thread Dan Nave

Once stabilized, EIS is substantially unchanged in any meaningful way
after 5 years.

Submit PROOF to the contrary.

Dan

> -Original Message-
> From: Indi [mailto:indule...@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:23 AM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
> 
> We seem to be on different pages here. 
> When you speak in absolutes, I tend to take it literally. Now 
> I understand, you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on 
> faith". That's fine for you, but IMO it is irresponsible to 
> broadcast "EIS unchanges after five years"
> armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the 
> simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* 
> your claims (in scientific terms). 
> 
> I'm sorry if I've upset you, Ode. That was not my intention. 
> But I do not feel the "onus" you seem to assign to me, as I 
> am not the one making extravagant claims based on rudimentary 
> observation; I'm just trying to provide some perspective.
> 
> Peace,
> indi
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
> > At 01:04 PM 10/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:
> >> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:08:32PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >   If the container is non reactive
> >>
> >> That would have to include the lid of course.
> >> :)
> >
> >  ##  Unless you slosh the contents around, there is no 
> direct contact 
> > with the lid.
> >
> >
> >> >  there is little air space and all you have is water, water 
> >> > byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive, then it has 
> >> > nothing to change into.
> >>
> >> Yes, but litlle air space isn't zero air space, and your 
> container is 
> >> bound to contain *something* besides pure H2O and silver ions.
> >
> > ##  If they don't react in a few days, they probably won't, ever.
> >  Contaminants DO cause problems and sometimes glass itself 
> can leach 
> > out them over time if contaminants have impregnated the glass.
> >  But that's not the topic in discussion. The topic is change of the 
> > EIS itself, in LONG term storage..not.. changing.
> >  Generally if it does change, it will do so within a few 
> days and if 
> > it doesn't [and most doesn't] there are no extraneous problems that 
> > are relevant to the "EIS" itself.
> >
> >
> >> >  You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few 
> days, but 
> >> > once the EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark.
> >>
> >> If it is perfectly sealed, perhaps. Otherwise no.
> >
> > ##  You have years of observation to back that up?
> > Due to equalized inner and out gas pressures, any tight seal is 
> > essentially perfect.
> >
> >
> >> > If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may 
> continue to 
> >> > stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved 
> >> > water byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive.
> >> >  In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally 
> gone yellow.
> >>
> >> Actually, *any* visual change implies chemical reaction, usually 
> >> induced or facilitated by light or heat.
> >
> > ## Heat and light will makes EIS cross some reaction thresholds for 
> > sure, but only if the water is contaminated with something 
> to react with.
> >  "Contaminated" EIS is not the topic of discussion.  The 
> EIS itself is 
> > not light sensitive.  If it gets too COLD, it can lower its 
> saturation 
> > point and particulates crystalize out, but boiling 
> stabilized EIS has 
> > not caused it to change in my experience.
> >  Too much heat while *making it* HAS made a difference in my 
> > experience, but that's BEFORE stabilization where excess Brownian 
> > motion  makes for a high reaction rate before ions are  
> protected by bonds with the water.
> >  The only way that light plays a role is with the addition of 
> > electrons making ions into metallic silver and the only way those 
> > electrons can be added is via surface contact with metallic semi 
> > conductive glass components serving as a rather poor solar 
> panel and 
> > the silica as a capacitor.  Electrons can't exist in a free 
> state in 
> > water.  I have not seen this happen to the extent of significantly 
> > changing an EC reading even after the batch has sat on a 
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-17 Thread Indi

We seem to be on different pages here. 
When you speak in absolutes, I tend to take it literally. Now I understand,
you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on faith". That's fine for you, 
but IMO it is irresponsible to broadcast "EIS unchanges after five years"
armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the simple reason that 
those devices are not enough to *prove* your claims (in scientific terms). 

I'm sorry if I've upset you, Ode. That was not my intention. But I do not
feel the "onus" you seem to assign to me, as I am not the one making
extravagant claims based on rudimentary observation; I'm just trying to
provide some perspective.

Peace,
indi


On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 10/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:08:32PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >   If the container is non reactive
>>
>> That would have to include the lid of course.
>> :)
>
>  ##  Unless you slosh the contents around, there is no direct contact 
> with the lid.
>
>
>> >  there is little air space and all you
>> > have is water, water byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive,
>> > then it has nothing to change into.
>>
>> Yes, but litlle air space isn't zero air space, and your container is bound 
>> to
>> contain *something* besides pure H2O and silver ions.
>
> ##  If they don't react in a few days, they probably won't, ever.
>  Contaminants DO cause problems and sometimes glass itself can leach out  
> them over time if contaminants have impregnated the glass.
>  But that's not the topic in discussion. The topic is change of the EIS  
> itself, in LONG term storage..not.. changing.
>  Generally if it does change, it will do so within a few days and if it  
> doesn't [and most doesn't] there are no extraneous problems that are  
> relevant to the "EIS" itself.
>
>
>> >  You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few days, but once
>> > the EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark.
>>
>> If it is perfectly sealed, perhaps. Otherwise no.
>
> ##  You have years of observation to back that up?
> Due to equalized inner and out gas pressures, any tight seal is 
> essentially perfect.
>
>
>> > If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may continue to
>> > stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved water
>> > byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive.
>> >  In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally gone yellow.
>>
>> Actually, *any* visual change implies chemical reaction, usually induced or
>> facilitated by light or heat.
>
> ## Heat and light will makes EIS cross some reaction thresholds for sure, 
> but only if the water is contaminated with something to react with.
>  "Contaminated" EIS is not the topic of discussion.  The EIS itself is 
> not light sensitive.  If it gets too COLD, it can lower its saturation 
> point and particulates crystalize out, but boiling stabilized EIS has not 
> caused it to change in my experience.
>  Too much heat while *making it* HAS made a difference in my experience,  
> but that's BEFORE stabilization where excess Brownian motion  makes for a 
> high reaction rate before ions are  protected by bonds with the water.
>  The only way that light plays a role is with the addition of electrons  
> making ions into metallic silver and the only way those electrons can be  
> added is via surface contact with metallic semi conductive glass 
> components serving as a rather poor solar panel and the silica as a  
> capacitor.  Electrons can't exist in a free state in water.  I have not  
> seen this happen to the extent of significantly changing an EC reading 
> even after the batch has sat on a South facing window sill for years and 
> years.
>  Yes, "some" batches do change, but those are *contaminated* batches... a 
> distraction to this context of *not* contaminated EIS changing in the 
> sunlight.
>
>
>> > You cannot make a vacuum in a container full of water...vapor will fill
>> > it to saturation.
>>
>> Practically all commercially distributed carbonated beverages ship in  
>> gas-tight
>> packaging... :)
>
> ## Gas tight and a vacuum are two completely different animals.. and gas  
> tight has a LOT to do with pressure differentials and what is in the 
> container.
>  Making a gas tight *compressed* Hydrogen container is virtually  
> impossible, but at atmospheric pressure, not very hard.
>  At highish pressures, you can even force oil through iron and bronze for 
> oil impregnated bushings.
>
>
>> > If the internal pressure is the same as the external, there's no 
>> reason for
>> > any gases to exchange though a seal.
>>
>> That is incorrect, fluctuation in barometric pressure does cause gas to pass
>> through, otherwise airtight packaging would rarely be necessary.
>
> ##  Most lids used are air tight by YOUR definition "because" they were  
> made for food.
>  Barometric pressure changes change faster than contents can leach 
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-14 Thread Ode Coyote

At 01:04 PM 10/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:

On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:08:32PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>
>   If the container is non reactive

That would have to include the lid of course.
:)

 ##  Unless you slosh the contents around, there is no direct contact with 
the lid.

>  there is little air space and all you
> have is water, water byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive,
> then it has nothing to change into.

Yes, but litlle air space isn't zero air space, and your container is bound to
contain *something* besides pure H2O and silver ions.

##  If they don't react in a few days, they probably won't, ever.
 Contaminants DO cause problems and sometimes glass itself can leach out 
them over time if contaminants have impregnated the glass.
 But that's not the topic in discussion. The topic is change of the EIS 
itself, in LONG term storage..not.. changing.
 Generally if it does change, it will do so within a few days and if it 
doesn't [and most doesn't] there are no extraneous problems that are 
relevant to the "EIS" itself.

>  You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few days, but once
> the EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark.

If it is perfectly sealed, perhaps. Otherwise no.

##  You have years of observation to back that up?
Due to equalized inner and out gas pressures, any tight seal is essentially 
perfect.

> If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may continue to
> stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved water
> byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive.
>  In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally gone yellow.

Actually, *any* visual change implies chemical reaction, usually induced or
facilitated by light or heat.

## Heat and light will makes EIS cross some reaction thresholds for sure, 
but only if the water is contaminated with something to react with.
 "Contaminated" EIS is not the topic of discussion.  The EIS itself is not 
light sensitive.  If it gets too COLD, it can lower its saturation point 
and particulates crystalize out, but boiling stabilized EIS has not caused 
it to change in my experience.
 Too much heat while *making it* HAS made a difference in my experience, 
but that's BEFORE stabilization where excess Brownian motion  makes for a 
high reaction rate before ions are  protected by bonds with the water.
 The only way that light plays a role is with the addition of electrons 
making ions into metallic silver and the only way those electrons can be 
added is via surface contact with metallic semi conductive glass components 
serving as a rather poor solar panel and the silica as a 
capacitor.  Electrons can't exist in a free state in water.  I have not 
seen this happen to the extent of significantly changing an EC reading even 
after the batch has sat on a South facing window sill for years and years.
 Yes, "some" batches do change, but those are *contaminated* batches... a 
distraction to this context of *not* contaminated EIS changing in the sunlight.

> You cannot make a vacuum in a container full of water...vapor will fill
> it to saturation.

Practically all commercially distributed carbonated beverages ship in 
gas-tight

packaging... :)

## Gas tight and a vacuum are two completely different animals.. and gas 
tight has a LOT to do with pressure differentials and what is in the container.
 Making a gas tight *compressed* Hydrogen container is virtually 
impossible, but at atmospheric pressure, not very hard.
 At highish pressures, you can even force oil through iron and bronze for 
oil impregnated bushings.

> If the internal pressure is the same as the external, there's no reason 
for

> any gases to exchange though a seal.

That is incorrect, fluctuation in barometric pressure does cause gas to pass
through, otherwise airtight packaging would rarely be necessary.

##  Most lids used are air tight by YOUR definition "because" they were 
made for food.
 Barometric pressure changes change faster than contents can leach through 
a container wall, so sure, there will be an impregnation flux going on, but 
that takes more time than a pressure change takes to change the other way.
 There is a matter of exposed surface area too.  A full bottle with a 
narrow neck has very little, so even if it does leak some, there is little 
effect.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I just can't agree with your premises nor
your conclusion on this one.
I'll have to stand by my original statement: You have not come close to 
proving

that your ionic silver solution was unchanged after five years, and frankly
it would be a miracle if you did end up with that result.

indi

##  Well, that's a opinion built on some flawed theory so far as I can tell.
Is it backed by experience?
 What sort of experience??
 For one, I don't see how sunlight can change a non photo-reactive ion 
into anything else without some intermediary intrusion and some other 
component added to become somethin

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-13 Thread Indi

On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:08:32PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>
>   If the container is non reactive

That would have to include the lid of course.
:)

>  there is little air space and all you 
> have is water, water byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive,  
> then it has nothing to change into.

Yes, but litlle air space isn't zero air space, and your container is bound to
contain *something* besides pure H2O and silver ions.

>  You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few days, but once 
> the EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark.

If it is perfectly sealed, perhaps. Otherwise no.

> If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may continue to  
> stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved water  
> byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive.
>  In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally gone yellow.

Actually, *any* visual change implies chemical reaction, usually induced or 
facilitated by light or heat.

> You cannot make a vacuum in a container full of water...vapor will fill 
> it to saturation.

Practically all commercially distributed carbonated beverages ship in gas-tight 
packaging... :) 

> If the internal pressure is the same as the external, there's no reason for 
> any gases to exchange though a seal.

That is incorrect, fluctuation in barometric pressure does cause gas to pass 
through, otherwise airtight packaging would rarely be necessary.
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I just can't agree with your premises nor 
your conclusion on this one.
I'll have to stand by my original statement: You have not come close to proving
that your ionic silver solution was unchanged after five years, and frankly
it would be a miracle if you did end up with that result. 

indi



>
>
> At 02:33 PM 10/10/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:57:20PM +, M. G. Devour wrote:
>> > Someone asks Ken:
>> > > >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and
>> > > >> unchanged?
>> >
>> > Ken wrote:
>> > > > ## EC meter.
>> > > > Colloids don't conduct electricity.
>> >
>> > Indi replies:
>> > > That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.
>>
>> >
>>
>> What I mean is that measuring for conductivity is no guarantee of ionic
>> silver specifically, particularly if the solution in question is five years
>> old. Truly gas-tight containers certainly exist, but are not the norm (that's
>> the reason sealed packaging exists). If you place your solution in a bottle
>> or jar and just screw the lid on, five years later you will have had 
>> all sorts
>> of chemical activity going on in that container. (unless it was stored in
>> the dark in a vacuum, and the cap as well as the container is glasss). 
>> You can
>> measure for conductivity, but that will not give proof of a given 
>> solution being
>> "unchanged".
>>
>> I don't mean to get into an argument or anything, but it's just the way
>> things are. Ionic solutions are volatile (have a short shelf life), and are
>> photo-sensitive by nature. That is why medicinal ionic solutions (for
>> insstance those commonly known  as "iodine" and "mercurachrome") always came
>> packaged in brown glass bottles.
>>
>> When someone tells me he kept some ionic solution for five years and
>> measuring for conductivity "proved" the solution was still pristine,
>> I feel obligated to point out that he has not proved that at all.
>> It is hard enough to determine proper facts in this field of study, after 
>> all.
>>
>> BTW, one can easily test this at home; measure the conductivity of a jar of
>> plain distilled water, then store the jar for a few months, then 
>> measure again.
>> You will see much more conductivity after. :)
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>>
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>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-13 Thread Ode Coyote

  If the container is non reactive, there is little air space and all you 
have is water, water byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive, 
then it has nothing to change into.

The water byproducts "should" recombine into water leaving colloidal silver 
or a silver precipitate..but they don't.
 You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few days, but once the 
EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark.
If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may continue to 
stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved water 
byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive.

 In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally gone yellow.

 You cannot make a vacuum in a container full of water...vapor will fill 
it to saturation.
If the internal pressure is the same as the external, there's no reason for 
any gases to exchange though a seal.
 The water that EIS is made in, is generally saturated with atmospheric 
gasses to start with.
If they haven't caused a problem during the stabilization stages, they 
probably won't.

Ode

At 02:33 PM 10/10/2008 -0400, you wrote:

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:57:20PM +, M. G. Devour wrote:
> Someone asks Ken:
> > >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and
> > >> unchanged?
>
> Ken wrote:
> > > ## EC meter.
> > > Colloids don't conduct electricity.
>
> Indi replies:
> > That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.

>

What I mean is that measuring for conductivity is no guarantee of ionic
silver specifically, particularly if the solution in question is five years
old. Truly gas-tight containers certainly exist, but are not the norm (that's
the reason sealed packaging exists). If you place your solution in a bottle
or jar and just screw the lid on, five years later you will have had all 
sorts

of chemical activity going on in that container. (unless it was stored in
the dark in a vacuum, and the cap as well as the container is glasss). You 
can
measure for conductivity, but that will not give proof of a given solution 
being

"unchanged".

I don't mean to get into an argument or anything, but it's just the way
things are. Ionic solutions are volatile (have a short shelf life), and are
photo-sensitive by nature. That is why medicinal ionic solutions (for
insstance those commonly known  as "iodine" and "mercurachrome") always came
packaged in brown glass bottles.

When someone tells me he kept some ionic solution for five years and
measuring for conductivity "proved" the solution was still pristine,
I feel obligated to point out that he has not proved that at all.
It is hard enough to determine proper facts in this field of study, after all.

BTW, one can easily test this at home; measure the conductivity of a jar of
plain distilled water, then store the jar for a few months, then measure 
again.

You will see much more conductivity after. :)

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12:00 PM

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-13 Thread Ode Coyote

At 09:58 AM 10/10/2008 -0400, you wrote:

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 07:28:52AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and unchanged?
>
>
> ## EC meter.
> Colloids don't conduct electricity.
>
> Ode
>

That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.

## But absolutely pure water doesn't and "suspended" solids [colloids] in 
tap water don't either.
 A TDS meter  is a total "dissolved" solids meter, stuff in 
"solution"..like ions...that DO conduct electricity "in" water.

 A TDS meter ...IS... an EC meter.

The water itself, does not conduct electricity.
 The introduction of electricity may produce Hydroxyl OH anions and 
Hydronium H3O ions, that do conduct electricity "in" water.but *that* 
is no longer "water"

Hydronium ions are  the combination of H+ ions and H2O molecules, i.e.. H+ 
+ H2O

It's the ions and anions that transport electrons [electrical current] by 
way of the electrochemistry that makes some of that nonconductive water 
into something else, dissolved "in" the water.

Ode

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12:00 PM

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-11 Thread Dee


Me too Dan, me too!  dee

Dan Nave wrote:

Personally, I *prefer* magical thinking...

Dan

  
  



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-10 Thread Indi

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:41:04PM -0500, Dan Nave wrote:
> Personally, I *prefer* magical thinking...
> 
> Dan
>

You are not alone. :)
For many years, "I refuse to be ill" was my mantra, and I was sure it was 
the main reason for my excellent health. However in spite of that, at age 
42 I did contract a debillitating MRSA, and after nearly losing everything 
to it I began to realize that magical thinking has its limits (at least for 
me it did).  Clearly, people who are ill and suffering need more. We need 
real science. 

Imagine my chagrin, when finally I submitted myself to the care of doctors 
after avoiding them all my life, to learn that they were just shills for 
the big pharmaceutical companies, and that most medical research is also 
completely skewed by those same comapanies! It didn't take long for me to 
realize that the notion of nature holding the key to health was infinitely 
more sensible than the profit-driven patent medicine model. I find it rather 
tragic and more than a bit frustrating that "real science" is missing 
(and even dismissed) in so much of the field of "alternative treatments".
IMO this is as bad in its way as "real science" being corrupted by Big Pharma.
People suffer and die needlessly over it.
Fortunately, with CS I have definitely stumbled upon something that is
working. I wish I knew more about the why, but how can I argue with success?




> > -Original Message-
> > From: Indi [mailto:indule...@comcast.net] 
> > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:34 PM
> > To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> > Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:57:20PM +, M. G. Devour wrote:
> > > Someone asks Ken:
> > > > >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and 
> > > > >> unchanged?
> > > 
> > > Ken wrote:
> > > > > ## EC meter.
> > > > > Colloids don't conduct electricity.
> > > 
> > > Indi replies:
> > > > That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.
> > > 
> > > I say:
> > > 
> > > Huh? Any tap water I've ever seen or heard of has scads of 
> > dissolved 
> > > minerals in it, which provide ions that make it hightly conductive.
> > > 
> > 
> > That is true.
> > 
> > > As far as any of our sages have ever been able to determine, 
> > > conductivity meters can only pick up the effect of ions. To 
> > the extent 
> > > colloidal particles exist in your brew, they won't 
> > contribute to the 
> > > conductivity.
> > >
> > 
> > What I mean is that measuring for conductivity is no 
> > guarantee of ionic silver specifically, particularly if the 
> > solution in question is five years old. Truly gas-tight 
> > containers certainly exist, but are not the norm (that's the 
> > reason sealed packaging exists). If you place your solution 
> > in a bottle or jar and just screw the lid on, five years 
> > later you will have had all sorts of chemical activity going 
> > on in that container. (unless it was stored in the dark in a 
> > vacuum, and the cap as well as the container is glasss). You 
> > can measure for conductivity, but that will not give proof of 
> > a given solution being "unchanged".
> > 
> > I don't mean to get into an argument or anything, but it's 
> > just the way things are. Ionic solutions are volatile (have a 
> > short shelf life), and are photo-sensitive by nature. That is 
> > why medicinal ionic solutions (for insstance those commonly 
> > known  as "iodine" and "mercurachrome") always came packaged 
> > in brown glass bottles.
> > 
> > When someone tells me he kept some ionic solution for five 
> > years and measuring for conductivity "proved" the solution 
> > was still pristine, I feel obligated to point out that he has 
> > not proved that at all.
> > It is hard enough to determine proper facts in this field of 
> > study, after all.
> > 
> > BTW, one can easily test this at home; measure the 
> > conductivity of a jar of plain distilled water, then store 
> > the jar for a few months, then measure again.
> > You will see much more conductivity after. :)
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
> > 
> > Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
> > 
> > To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
> > 
> > Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com
> > 
> > The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
> > 
> > List maintainer: Mike Devour 
> >
> > 
> > 
>

RE: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-10 Thread Dan Nave

Personally, I *prefer* magical thinking...

Dan

> -Original Message-
> From: Indi [mailto:indule...@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:34 PM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited
> 
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:57:20PM +, M. G. Devour wrote:
> > Someone asks Ken:
> > > >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and 
> > > >> unchanged?
> > 
> > Ken wrote:
> > > > ## EC meter.
> > > > Colloids don't conduct electricity.
> > 
> > Indi replies:
> > > That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.
> > 
> > I say:
> > 
> > Huh? Any tap water I've ever seen or heard of has scads of 
> dissolved 
> > minerals in it, which provide ions that make it hightly conductive.
> > 
> 
> That is true.
> 
> > As far as any of our sages have ever been able to determine, 
> > conductivity meters can only pick up the effect of ions. To 
> the extent 
> > colloidal particles exist in your brew, they won't 
> contribute to the 
> > conductivity.
> >
> 
> What I mean is that measuring for conductivity is no 
> guarantee of ionic silver specifically, particularly if the 
> solution in question is five years old. Truly gas-tight 
> containers certainly exist, but are not the norm (that's the 
> reason sealed packaging exists). If you place your solution 
> in a bottle or jar and just screw the lid on, five years 
> later you will have had all sorts of chemical activity going 
> on in that container. (unless it was stored in the dark in a 
> vacuum, and the cap as well as the container is glasss). You 
> can measure for conductivity, but that will not give proof of 
> a given solution being "unchanged".
> 
> I don't mean to get into an argument or anything, but it's 
> just the way things are. Ionic solutions are volatile (have a 
> short shelf life), and are photo-sensitive by nature. That is 
> why medicinal ionic solutions (for insstance those commonly 
> known  as "iodine" and "mercurachrome") always came packaged 
> in brown glass bottles.
> 
> When someone tells me he kept some ionic solution for five 
> years and measuring for conductivity "proved" the solution 
> was still pristine, I feel obligated to point out that he has 
> not proved that at all.
> It is hard enough to determine proper facts in this field of 
> study, after all.
> 
> BTW, one can easily test this at home; measure the 
> conductivity of a jar of plain distilled water, then store 
> the jar for a few months, then measure again.
> You will see much more conductivity after. :)
> 
> 
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
> 
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
> 
> To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com
> 
> The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
> 
> List maintainer: Mike Devour 
>
> 
>

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-10 Thread Indi

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:57:20PM +, M. G. Devour wrote:
> Someone asks Ken:
> > >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and
> > >> unchanged?
> 
> Ken wrote:
> > > ## EC meter.
> > > Colloids don't conduct electricity.
> 
> Indi replies:
> > That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.
> 
> I say:
> 
> Huh? Any tap water I've ever seen or heard of has scads of dissolved 
> minerals in it, which provide ions that make it hightly conductive.
> 

That is true.

> As far as any of our sages have ever been able to determine, 
> conductivity meters can only pick up the effect of ions. To the extent 
> colloidal particles exist in your brew, they won't contribute to the 
> conductivity.
>

What I mean is that measuring for conductivity is no guarantee of ionic
silver specifically, particularly if the solution in question is five years
old. Truly gas-tight containers certainly exist, but are not the norm (that's 
the reason sealed packaging exists). If you place your solution in a bottle 
or jar and just screw the lid on, five years later you will have had all sorts 
of chemical activity going on in that container. (unless it was stored in
the dark in a vacuum, and the cap as well as the container is glasss). You can 
measure for conductivity, but that will not give proof of a given solution being
"unchanged".

I don't mean to get into an argument or anything, but it's just the way
things are. Ionic solutions are volatile (have a short shelf life), and are
photo-sensitive by nature. That is why medicinal ionic solutions (for
insstance those commonly known  as "iodine" and "mercurachrome") always came 
packaged in brown glass bottles.

When someone tells me he kept some ionic solution for five years and 
measuring for conductivity "proved" the solution was still pristine, 
I feel obligated to point out that he has not proved that at all.
It is hard enough to determine proper facts in this field of study, after all.

BTW, one can easily test this at home; measure the conductivity of a jar of
plain distilled water, then store the jar for a few months, then measure again.
You will see much more conductivity after. :)

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-10 Thread M. G. Devour

Someone asks Ken:
> >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and
> >> unchanged?

Ken wrote:
> > ## EC meter.
> > Colloids don't conduct electricity.

Indi replies:
> That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.

I say:

Huh? Any tap water I've ever seen or heard of has scads of dissolved 
minerals in it, which provide ions that make it hightly conductive.

As far as any of our sages have ever been able to determine, 
conductivity meters can only pick up the effect of ions. To the extent 
colloidal particles exist in your brew, they won't contribute to the 
conductivity.

Be well,

Mike D.
[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com]
[Speaking only for myself...   ]

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-10 Thread Indi

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 07:28:52AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and unchanged?
>
>
> ## EC meter.
> Colloids don't conduct electricity.
>
> Ode
>

That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity.




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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-10 Thread Ode Coyote






What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and unchanged?



## EC meter.
Colloids don't conduct electricity.

Ode




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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-08 Thread Indi


> Ode Coyote wrote:
> > At 10:49 AM 10/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:
> >> At 05:47 PM 10/5/2008 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >>> Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there
> >>> will be a small amount of ionic silver.
> >
> >
> >
> >>>  This can be mostly eliminated by
> >>> exposure to sunlight though.
> >
> > ##  How would this be so?
> >
> >  I've left ionic silver on a sunny window sill for as long as 5
> > years and it was still ionic and unchanged.
> >
> > Ode

What mehod did you use to verify that it was still ionic and unchanged?



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-08 Thread Dee


Yet another example of mis-information taken as gospel perhaps?  dee

Ode Coyote wrote:

At 10:49 AM 10/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:

At 05:47 PM 10/5/2008 -0400, you wrote:


Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be
a small amount of ionic silver.





 This can be mostly eliminated by
exposure to sunlight though.


##  How would this be so?

 I've left ionic silver on a sunny window sill for as long as 5 years 
and it was still ionic and unchanged.


Ode






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Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-07 Thread sol


Ode Coyote wrote:

Logical Conclusion:

If you have blue moons and it IS from silver, [and not from a myriad 
of other possible causes ] you may have other problems where silver 
accumulation shows as a side effect with silver not the cause.

I wish I had said that, and it is what I suspect to be true for me.
LOL,
sol


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited... please provide references.

2008-10-07 Thread Ode Coyote

At 01:41 PM 10/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Larry,

I study and I learn, but I do not have the lawyer-like ability to cite
all research, as I am not really out to debate people or to
practice medicine on others. I'm just trying to get well again.
:)
I do recall there is a bit about it in the book
"Electrically Assisted Transdermal and Topical Drug Delivery", by Ajay
K. Banga. It's indexed in Google books, right here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RuekDZ7fJgkC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=metabolism+silver+chloride&source=web&ots=GAbWQdrWPe&sig=uJIy4TLnHcaiqtTZP2SJ5-njPl8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1

Also, it is well accepted that ionic compounds are by nature unstable
and will quickly react to form new compounds by giving up their free
electrons at the first opportunity -- that is a basic fact of chemistry.
Ionic silver combined with hydrochloric acid will create silver
chloride, another basic fact of chemistry. The above is easy enough to
verify, and Google books is pretty awesome for this sort of thing.

 ##  Were the stomach to contain ONLY Hydrochloric Acid, that would be a 
no brainer assumption.
 But with a thousand possibilities presented by the actual chemistry and 
myriad chemical stages, the probabilities become much less clear.
If silver chloride is ingested already made, I can see where that could be 
quite a different animal.

Ode

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:57:36 GMT
"larry tankersley"  wrote:

> Hi Indi the following from your post "You are correct that silver
> ions will react with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and result
> in silver chloride formation. With ionic silver, if it is potent
> enough (high PPM) this can become a dangerous amount of silver
> chloride. "Dangerous" meaning one may get argyria. In any event,
> ionic silver should not be taken internally due to the fact that it
> is immediately transformed into silver chloride, which is then stored
> in the body. There is "<< I'm most interested to see
> the journal references to scientific/repeatable, peer reviewed in
> vivo studies you base your assertions on.  Thanks.
>
> larry tankersley; Gainesville,Florida USA
>
>
>
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9:23 AM

Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-07 Thread Ode Coyote

Brain forensics are carried out with the use of a copper/silver method
to stain only the damaged areas.
Copper and silver have an affinity for damage, but there is no indication
that it causes that damage.
Silver has been found in the brains of alcoholic cadavers. Alcohol damages
brain cells and may compromise the blood brain barrier.

Like in Alzheimers, Aluminum collects in the damaged areas, but there is
no indication that Aluminum causes the damage or enters the brains of
normal healthy people.

Both Aluminum and Copper are virtually impossible to avoid.

Expressing extreme frustration in the lack of ability to induce Argyria
even when injecting huge doses of silver, a researcher went to the silver
processing industry and perused their records.[I've lost the paper but it
*was* linked to from Rosemary Jacobs site many years ago, in effect, her
proof disproving her assertions...the links were removed.]
Incidence of Agyria was 2 in 1,000 workers, absenteeism from illness was
lower than the norm.
Silver workers inhale and eat silver dust all day long in amounts far
exceeding any reasonable CS intake.

The researcher found no current cases to study.

Logical Conclusion:

If you have blue moons and it IS from silver, [and not from a myriad of
other possible causes ] you may have other problems where silver
accumulation shows as a side effect with silver not the cause.

It was also found that silver can have toxic effects, but the injected dose
required could make bullets big enough to kill a werewolf.

Don't inject a whole electrode.

Ode

At 01:39 PM 10/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:

craehow...@juno.com wrote:

Question: If; in fact, Collodial Silver did accumulate (beyond turning
blue) what could we expect that to cause?
An immune system boost. Since some water filters use silver to purify
water, any accumulated silver, especially in places like the liver, should
enhance the immune system's ability to kill pathogens
significantly. Silver accumulation in the liver appears to cause no
problems, but should be a big boost to the immune system. See:
http://www2.mst.dk/common/Udgivramme/Frame.asp?http://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2003/87-7972-512-0/html/kap08_eng.htm

Silver is primarily accumulated in the pancreas, liver and spleen, and to
a lesser extent in other tissues. Silver is mainly excreted in the feces
via the bile. Urinary may take place, when the blood level of silver is
above a certain concentration.

Accumulation in the brain and kidneys is of more concern. That same
article says:

Metallic silver is highly inert and is generally considered of low
toxicity to mammalian species including man. However, death has been
observed in rats following ingestion of large doses colloidal silver (15
).
In rare cases, silver has resulted in skin allergy. Inhalation of high
concentrations of silver fume resulted in headache and dyspnoea, and later
reduced oxygen pressure in capillary blood. For many years, it was
believed that the only effect from silver was argyria. Argyria results
after long-term exposure and is a cosmetic illness. Recent studies show,
that silver may be toxic to the kidneys. In animal studies, silver was
able to pass the blood-brain barrier and accumulate in certain areas of
the brain. Such animals were less active than unexposed animals, which may
indicate that silver may have a harmful effects on the central nervous
system. Silver is not mutagenic or carcinogenic. There is some evidence
that silver may cause minor developmental anomalies in the foetus.

Marshall

I feel that a portion of the silver that we are digesting is building
up; mainly because our elimination systems are not fuctioning well. I
know that mine has been a problem for 20+ years and I am now 61. I've
never been a junk food addict or consumed what was considered the tabo
types of foods. I loved my vegetables and ate very little meat.

Has anyone seen any information on this?
connie

-- Forwarded Message --
[Neville wrote: If I thought for one second that CS was the cause of sol's
moons there would be no further point in my continuation of ingestion of CS.
Why do you say that? Silver accumulation in the skin, nail beds, or wherever
has NOTHING to do with its effectiveness in killing pathogens so far as I
know. sol]

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-07 Thread Ode Coyote


At 10:49 AM 10/6/2008 -0400, you wrote:

At 05:47 PM 10/5/2008 -0400, you wrote:


Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be
a small amount of ionic silver.





 This can be mostly eliminated by
exposure to sunlight though.


##  How would this be so?

 I've left ionic silver on a sunny window sill for as long as 5 years and 
it was still ionic and unchanged.


Ode


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Re: Lyme, was Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-07 Thread Marshall Dudley


sol wrote:
Marshall Dudley 
wrote:
High intake can cause blue moons.  I have them, my wife has them, and 
my son, who takes much lower amounts, slightly has them.  Mine 
appeared quite suddenly immeidately following me taking huge amounts 
of CS for lyme.

Marshall,
  Would you mind saying how it went with the Lyme? Did the CS help? 
How long and how much did you take?
I had gotten bitten by a tick.  Got the red area around the bite, and it 
scared me pretty bad since I had had Lyme 15 years earlier, and it took 
2 years, $10,000 to get rid of and 10 years to fully recover.  So I 
drunk a couple of quarts of CS a day for a couple of weeks to make sure 
I did not catch it again.  So I knocked it out before I even got any 
other symptoms.
If you have written all this in the past, I've forgotten, and would 
like to hear about it again.
  Re your blue moons, your wife's, and son's. Do they stay the same? 
Every lighten then darken again? 
They don't seem to change.  Mine seemed to lighten a little when I was 
trying the vit. C, selenium protocol, but it was so slow I gave up on it.
Mine appeared suddenly too, but I don't remember at what point in my 
2+ years of quantity CS dosing they showed up. I'm still thinking my 
iron overload has something to do with it.
  Supposedly the blood drive is going to be happening in my town 
tomorrow, I plan to show up and hope to be allowed to donate. If I'm 
successful, I will donate as often as allowed, until my iron levels 
are down and stay down. If any change in my blue moons I will report, 
if no change, I'll report that.

thanks,

Yes, please do.

Marshall

sol


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct

2008-10-06 Thread Tony Moody

Hi Sol, 

Iron. 

You might try 'wearing' a magnet on your chest. This could magnetise the 
bloodcells passing under, which would force the cells apart exposing more of 
the cell surfaces to the fluid of the blood; and this may improve the oxygen 
transfer. 

Improved bile flow and elimination will increase of Fe. Easiest is take a 
couple of cups of hot water first thing in the morning and then go to stool 
in about 10 minutes. what may happen is that the warm water stimulates the 
gall bladder which squirts bile ( contains used Fe among other things) into 
the intestine and you should do a bm to move the stuff on. 

Also taking magnesium supplement first thing in the morning also gets your 
body including gall bladder in particular, into a wake up and go mode.

hth, 
OK, 
Tony  

On 5 Oct 2008 at 15:04, sol wrote about :
Subject : Re: CS>blue moons revisited - repli

> Sandee,
>What kind of chelations did you do? I'm curious to see what happens 
> to my nails as I try to get rid of excess iron. I hope they will clear 
> up as the iron leaves. I never had them before I started using CS, but 
> then I used to be on a very different and iron poor diet while consuming 
> a lot of iron absorption blocking foods and beverages. And way before 
> that I had the iron poor diet plus I had a lot of actual hemorrhaging 
> with menses so that probably kept the iron down.
>My second rank suspicion is if not from iron or silver, it may be due 
> to some loss of circulatory efficiency from iron in the heart. This is 
> known to be one possible consequence of iron overload, and I do have 
> edema in ankles and feet which would go along with that idea. I get the 
> edema from time to time, and cannot find a consistent correlation with 
> anything in my diet or my meds.



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Lyme, was Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-06 Thread sol

Marshall Dudley 
wrote:
High intake can cause blue moons.  I have them, my wife has them, and 
my son, who takes much lower amounts, slightly has them.  Mine 
appeared quite suddenly immeidately following me taking huge amounts 
of CS for lyme.

Marshall,
  Would you mind saying how it went with the Lyme? Did the CS help? How 
long and how much did you take?
If you have written all this in the past, I've forgotten, and would like 
to hear about it again.
  Re your blue moons, your wife's, and son's. Do they stay the same? 
Every lighten then darken again? Mine appeared suddenly too, but I don't 
remember at what point in my 2+ years of quantity CS dosing they showed 
up. I'm still thinking my iron overload has something to do with it.
  Supposedly the blood drive is going to be happening in my town 
tomorrow, I plan to show up and hope to be allowed to donate. If I'm 
successful, I will donate as often as allowed, until my iron levels are 
down and stay down. If any change in my blue moons I will report, if no 
change, I'll report that.

thanks,
sol


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Indi wrote:

I don't think it is likely that true CS can accumulate in your system,
or that if it did it would cause blue moons or argyria. As far as I
know, the bluish discoloration some people report is caused by silver
chloride, which can result when salt or baking soda is used as a
conductive starter to make CS, or when water other than distilled is
used to make it.
Silver chloride is slightly soluble in water, and thus cannot cause any
type of staining. I have never ever used anything but distilled water
to make my EIS. I agree that colloidal silver could not cause this, but
the silver chloride could when the body concentrated and reduces it in
the beds in preparation to transfer to the nails.

Best to always use only distilled water, and to use a
small amount of a known pure CS for starter when making CS.
I have never seen any other symptom of argyria reported, only the
discoloration.

I don't even use a started, just pure silver and pure distilled water.

Marshall

DISCLAIMER: I am not a doctor, and only an amateur chemist.

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:21:49 GMT
"craehow...@juno.com" wrote:

Question: If; in fact, Collodial Silver did accumulate (beyond
turning blue) what could we expect that to cause? I feel that a
portion of the silver that we are digesting is building up; mainly
because our elimination systems are not fuctioning well. I know that
mine has been a problem for 20+ years and I am now 61. I've never
been a junk food addict or consumed what was considered the tabo
types of foods. I loved my vegetables and ate very little meat. Has
anyone seen any information on this? connie

-- Forwarded Message --
[Neville wrote: If I thought for one second that CS was the cause of
sol's moons there would be no further point in my continuation of
ingestion of CS. Why do you say that? Silver accumulation in the
skin, nail beds, or wherever has NOTHING to do with its effectiveness
in killing pathogens so far as I know. sol]

Don't misunderstand sol, I'm not talking about the pathogen aspect of
CS, I'm aware of that, I'm referring to the fact that the ingestion
of CS, using the appropriate protocols as we know are required for
the production thereof, there should be NO issues if all we have
researched, based on repeated experimental and scientific evidence,
is to remain credible. Do you see what I mean? All research I have
accessed states that with the ingestion of CS,when produced in the
correct manner, there is NO issue with build up of silver anywhere in
the body as silver, in the form we take it, coupled with the method
we use to produce it simply cannot build up in the body. Our waist
elimination processes pass it through in a relatively quick time
frame. However, if CS is not produced in the appropriate manner, as
we know it, then the possibility of build up is conceivable. Do you
follow what I am trying to say? It's simply a matter of whether all
the research is believableor not. Personally, from all the
research I have done, I believe silver will not accumulate anywhere
in the body if produced in the way we produce it today. My
conviction is based on all the documented information I have found,
but as I said, if evidence is out there stating that this is NOT the
case then I want to have that varified as it makes all my researched
material null and void. See where I am coming from? If the silver
in the form we produce it has the capacity to build up in the body,
then that pretty much negates all information I have researched. No
room for doubts with me, I'm tired of anecdotal hearsay which is why
I made that statement regarding my discontinueing with it so I am
sticking with my researched material, will continue to take my daily
'dose', until proven otherwise, (of course if I get crook at any time
then I will just up the dose). I am motivated by concensus of
opinion, and in this case that 'opinion' is based on researched
material, and what others choose to divulge here. I welcome the
opportunity to be corrected though.

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http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifSTtk8ubVmgdnd1bZz6K2VnqDTbPIRItSwkQsVJ7FzBf6By/

Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct


Dee wrote:
Maybe it is not enough oxygen in the system for some reason?  This can 
be the cause for things turning blue, ie. lips etc., dee
Blood conditions can cause bluing, but it is different. Silver give a 
slate blue, blood low in oxygen is more of a sky blue. Also if you press 
on the nail above the bed, the blue will go to white if it is poor blood 
circulation, but the blue will be unchanged if it is silver.  Mine are 
slate, and unchanged if you press on them.


Marshall


Sandee George wrote:
Hi There Neville - I concur with what you said  -  I myself have had 
blue

moons on and off over my life
starting from childhood, all long before I started using EIS so both Sol
and I have some other factor
which is causing this and I do believe it is the retention of heavy
metals from some other aspect in our lives, I have had two series of IV
chelation over the past 12 years and every time I do this the blue moons
go for about a year and then slowly return, so it is something 
definitely
in my case to do with the way in which my body processes food etc., 
which is a contributory factor here - now what exactly that is I have 
yet to discover when I do I will let everyone know - however until then
blue moons are nothing more than additional attraction to my hands 
!   What I usually tell those who ask why is that I have a very high

iron reading in my body  I do believe that this is the case,
however cannot prove it as yet I
am NOT about to use soy to find this answer 
Cheers to all
Sandee

Peace is easy . . . It is a mind set
www.aliveagaingrenada.com


  



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited... please provide references.

2008-10-06 Thread Indi

Hi Larry,

I study and I learn, but I do not have the lawyer-like ability to cite
all research, as I am not really out to debate people or to
practice medicine on others. I'm just trying to get well again.
:)
I do recall there is a bit about it in the book 
"Electrically Assisted Transdermal and Topical Drug Delivery", by Ajay
K. Banga. It's indexed in Google books, right here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RuekDZ7fJgkC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=metabolism+silver+chloride&source=web&ots=GAbWQdrWPe&sig=uJIy4TLnHcaiqtTZP2SJ5-njPl8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1

Also, it is well accepted that ionic compounds are by nature unstable
and will quickly react to form new compounds by giving up their free
electrons at the first opportunity -- that is a basic fact of chemistry.
Ionic silver combined with hydrochloric acid will create silver
chloride, another basic fact of chemistry. The above is easy enough to
verify, and Google books is pretty awesome for this sort of thing. 

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:57:36 GMT
"larry tankersley"  wrote:

> Hi Indi the following from your post "You are correct that silver
> ions will react with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and result
> in silver chloride formation. With ionic silver, if it is potent
> enough (high PPM) this can become a dangerous amount of silver
> chloride. "Dangerous" meaning one may get argyria. In any event,
> ionic silver should not be taken internally due to the fact that it
> is immediately transformed into silver chloride, which is then stored
> in the body. There is "<< I'm most interested to see
> the journal references to scientific/repeatable, peer reviewed in
> vivo studies you base your assertions on.  Thanks.
> 
> larry tankersley; Gainesville,Florida USA
> 
> 
> 
> --
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>
>

Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

craehow...@juno.com wrote:

Question: If; in fact, Collodial Silver did accumulate (beyond
turning blue) what could we expect that to cause?

An immune system boost. Since some water filters use silver to purify
water, any accumulated silver, especially in places like the liver,
should enhance the immune system's ability to kill pathogens
significantly. Silver accumulation in the liver appears to cause no
problems, but should be a big boost to the immune system. See:
http://www2.mst.dk/common/Udgivramme/Frame.asp?http://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2003/87-7972-512-0/html/kap08_eng.htm

Silver is primarily accumulated in the pancreas, liver and spleen, and
to a lesser extent in other tissues. Silver is mainly excreted in the
feces via the bile. Urinary may take place, when the blood level of
silver is above a certain concentration.

Accumulation in the brain and kidneys is of more concern. That same
article says:

Metallic silver is highly inert and is generally considered of low
toxicity to mammalian species including man. However, death has been
observed in rats following ingestion of large doses colloidal silver (15
).
In rare cases, silver has resulted in skin allergy. Inhalation of high
concentrations of silver fume resulted in headache and dyspnoea, and
later reduced oxygen pressure in capillary blood. For many years, it was
believed that the only effect from silver was argyria. Argyria results
after long-term exposure and is a cosmetic illness. Recent studies show,
that silver may be toxic to the kidneys. In animal studies, silver was
able to pass the blood-brain barrier and accumulate in certain areas of
the brain. Such animals were less active than unexposed animals, which
may indicate that silver may have a harmful effects on the central
nervous system. Silver is not mutagenic or carcinogenic. There is some
evidence that silver may cause minor developmental anomalies in the foetus.

Marshall

Has anyone seen any information on this?

connie

-- Forwarded Message --
[Neville wrote: If I thought for one second that CS was the cause of
sol's
moons there would be no further point in my continuation of ingestion
of CS.
Why do you say that? Silver accumulation in the skin, nail beds, or
wherever

has NOTHING to do with its effectiveness in killing pathogens so far as I
know. sol]

Don't misunderstand sol, I'm not talking about the pathogen aspect of CS,
I'm aware of that, I'm referring to the fact that the ingestion of CS,
using

the appropriate protocols as we know are required for the production
thereof, there should be NO issues if all we have researched, based on
repeated experimental and scientific evidence, is to remain credible. Do
you see what I mean? All research I have accessed states that with the
ingestion of CS,when produced in the correct manner, there is NO
issue with
build up of silver anywhere in the body as silver, in the form we take
it,
coupled with the method we use to produce it simply cannot build up in
the
body. Our waist elimination processes pass it through in a relatively
quick
time frame. However, if CS is not produced in the appropriate manner,
as we

know it, then the possibility of build up is conceivable. Do you follow
what I am trying to say? It's simply a matter of whether all the
research
is believableor not. Personally, from all the research I have
done, I
believe silver will not accumulate anywhere in the body if produced in
the

way we produce it today. My conviction is based on all the documented
information I have found, but as I said, if evidence is out there stating
that this is NOT the case then I want to have that varified as it
makes all
my researched material null and void. See where I am coming from? If
the
silver in the form we produce it has the capacity to build up in the
body,

then that pretty much negates all information I have researched. No room
for doubts with me, I'm tired of anecdotal hearsay which is why I made
that

statement regarding my discontinueing with it so I am sticking with my
researched material, will continue to take my daily 'dose', until proven
otherwise, (of course if I get crook at any time then I will just up the
dose). I am motivated by concensus of opinion, and in this case that
'opinion' is based on researched material, and what others choose to
divulge

here. I welcome the opportunity to be corrected though.

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Ins

Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Interestingly night before last I was at a Halloween party.  I happened 
to be seated next to a doctor who happened to notice my fingernail 
moons.  She commented on them and said that that is caused by silver 
toxicity. I informed her that it was due to silver, but that it is 
strictly a cosmetic issue, and no toxicity is involved at all. I was 
surprised that she knew what it was and she told me she had had a 
patient with the same thing, and didn't know what the problem was.  
Blood work turned out fine, so they biopsied it, and found that it was 
caused by silver crystals.  Now I must say that in the case of this 
person, they were drinking some sort of silver muck, it was brown, not 
clear, but that is is silver still seems to be confirmed.


Marshall

Neville wrote:


- Original Message - From: "David" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: CS>blue moons revisited


Quote:
[Hello Sol If you've dramatically reduced your silver intake shouldn't 
the blue nails have grown out, or at least lightened up?  David]


Hi David, till you here from sol, I don't know if it has been 
established that CS was the cause.  Personally, I don't believe it 
was, and Connie's statement adds to my personal conviction that it 
wasn't.  If this could ever


be proved not to be the case then the whole idea of EICS, as we know 
it, has


just exploded in everyones face's and can only add fuel to the fires 
of the sceptics, knockers and non-believers of CS.  If I thought for 
one second that CS was the cause of sol's moons there would be no 
further point in my continuation of ingestion of CS.  To my knowledge 
I am pretty healthy and I show no signs of anything untoward by my 
daily ingestion of CS over nearly 4


years, (a further 3 on and off prior to that).  As I said earlier I 
only take a small maintenance amount, but even so, if all our 
researched material, combined with personal usages noted by myself and 
others are to be


held up as credible and informative, (providing we are following the 
correct


protocols of course),  then it shouldn't matter a hoot how much is 
ingested,


after all it's not like anyone is drinking gallons of the stuff.  I am 
holding on to that conviction till  evidence can be provided to the 
contrary.  Doubts are the seeds of dis-trust, which grow into 
dis-belief. That's how I look at it.


Cheers...N.

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited


David wrote:

Hello Sol

l


If you've dramatically reduced your silver intake shouldn't the blue 
nails have grown out, or at least lightened up?
The nails don't turn blue, the moons do. The nails remain translucent, 
but the soft tissue at the growth site of the nails remains blue.  
Apparently what happens is that the body gets rid of metals via growth 
of hair (nails are basically hair).  Metal ions accumulate at the root 
of the hair or nail growth, to be put into the hair or nail. However if 
silver content is sufficient, the particles aggregate until they become 
stuck in the tissues, and become immobile causing the blueing.


Marshall



David






From: sol 
Date: 4 October 2008 2:36:22 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: CS>blue moons revisited


I have posted here before about my blue (grey) fingernail moons.
For some time now, I have suspected that they are the result not 
solely of my heavy ingestion of CS for over 2 years a few years ago, 
but possibly from too much iron, some interaction of silver with iron 
overload.
My iron levels have been high for at least several years, most likely 
were high when I was using so much CS daily.
My latest blood test shows even higher iron levels, so storage iron 
(ferritin) has been increasing since 2005 at least.
Anybody know any good way to chelate iron? Other than IP-6 that is, 
which I am going to start as soon as it gets here. I'm also reducing 
oral vit C, increasing whole grains and nuts, and reducing vit E, and 
increasing B vits per this site

http://www.ironoverload.org/Diet.html
I've been refused permission to donate blood, because of my adrenal 
fatigue, so that simple way of getting rid of excess iron is out for 
the present, unless I go doctor shopping again, and I don't have much 
enthusiasm in that. Where I live there are few choices in docs.


I have been quite puzzled for years why some can take large amounts 
of CS for years and not get the grey nails, and a very few of us have 
gotten them. I haven't any other indication of argryia, and don't 
feel the nails are a problem at all besides being ugly. And I have 
NOT progressed from blue nails to any argryia elsewhere. I still use 
CS orally daily, though not as much except in certain circumstances 
(case of the runs or the like). In retrospect I would still do the 
heavy dosing of daily CS, even though it gave me ugly fingernails, 
because it did work for my purposes.

sol





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Re: CS>blue moons revisited


craehow...@juno.com wrote:


After reading your post concerning the quantity and potency I felt the 
need to comment.


For almost 4 years I have been consuming a quart or more of Collodial 
Silver   (15-20ppm).  The blue moons you've indicated are due in fact 
to your collodial Silver consumption.  Even before I began taking 
Collodial Silver I have had blue moons and even with my hugh intake of 
collodial silver I have not experienced any change (better or worse) 
in the appearance.  Are you sure these are directly related to your 
ingesting collodial silver?


connie




Get help now! Click to find the right drug rehab solution for you. 

High intake can cause blue moons.  I have them, my wife has them, and my 
son, who takes much lower amounts, slightly has them.  Mine appeared 
quite suddenly immeidately following me taking huge amounts of CS for lyme.


Marshall


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited... please provide references.

2008-10-06 Thread larry tankersley

Hi Indi the following from your post "You are correct that silver ions will
react with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and result in silver
chloride formation. With ionic silver, if it is potent enough (high
PPM) this can become a dangerous amount of silver chloride. "Dangerous"
meaning one may get argyria. In any event, ionic silver should not be
taken internally due to the fact that it is immediately transformed into
silver chloride, which is then stored in the body. There is "<< 
I'm most interested to see the journal references to scientific/repeatable, 
peer reviewed in vivo studies you base your assertions on.  Thanks.

larry tankersley; Gainesville,Florida USA



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited-now CS vs EIS

Well said Ode, its just a shame that this has to keep being reiterated, 
because it shows how misinformation can be regarded as the truth.  This 
is what we are continuously up against in alternative health when even 
believers are getting it wrong.  dee


Ode Coyote wrote:

At 05:47 PM 10/5/2008 -0400, you wrote:



Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation about CS.



## And this isn't some of it?

There is a lot of theory being taken as fact.


We are pretty much left with:  "If it works, use it "
if it doesn't, try something else.
..and use common sense.

Ode







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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-06 Thread Ode Coyote

At 05:47 PM 10/5/2008 -0400, you wrote:

Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be
a small amount of ionic silver. This can be mostly eliminated by
exposure to sunlight though. You are correct that silver ions will
react with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and result in silver
chloride formation. With ionic silver, if it is potent enough (high
PPM) this can become a dangerous amount of silver chloride. "Dangerous"
meaning one may get argyria. In any event, ionic silver should not be
taken internally due to the fact that it is immediately transformed into
silver chloride, which is then stored in the body. There is no health
benefit to be gained from taking ionic silver internally, although it
can work as a topical antiseptic. It does have a very short shelf life,
and is inferior to colloidal silver.

##  It is virtually impossible to make high PPM ionic silver due to 
solubility limits

True colloidal silver is composed of nano-sized particles, not ions.
It s not light-sensitive.

## Ionic silver is also not light sensitive unless there are other ions 
there to make a light sensitive chemical with.

The key to making it is to use high voltage
AC current. Low voltage DC current will only produce mostly ionic
silver.

##  ALL electrolysis based methods make ONLY ionic silver..it's what 
happens AFTER the ions are produced that determines colloidal content.

I am not sure what the optimum voltage and amperage are; I seem
to be successful using a 4,800 volt transformer rated at 30 milliamps.
(If you decide to do this, please do your homework re handling high
voltages first!)

##  perhaps, but no description of the results and a marked lack of other 
essential parameters.
 "Rating" means nothing to application except fire and burnout prevention 
for the equipment
and doesn't mean your setup doesn't emit ions only, then make colloidal 
particles out of them.

I have found that when taking CS it is necessary to also use a
probiotic, as CS will kill the friendly bacteria in the digestive
system as well. It does not discriminate between "good" and "bad"
microorganisms. I know there are many people who claim they take large
doses of CS for long periods, but my experience indicates that if that
were true they'd not be able to venture far from the bathroom!

##  I and about 300 people surveyed have not found this to be the case.
You are apparently an exception.
You are correct in that CS doesn't discriminate, but environment counts a 
great deal.
 CS immobilized in a semi solid doesn't do much. "Where" are those 
friendly bacterium?

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation about CS.

## And this isn't some of it?

There is a lot of theory being taken as fact.
Does anyone know for a "fact" that ionic silver forms silver chloride in 
the stomach, or that it doesn't revert or convert to something else, elsewhere?
In the intelligent chemical soup we call a body, there are many pathways 
for the oddball thing to be the norm rendering assumptions inaccurate.
In a near complete absence of studies, we cannot be certain of any theory 
being true or that any given person, each being different, experiences the 
exact same processes.

We are pretty much left with:  "If it works, use it "
if it doesn't, try something else.
..and use common sense.

Ode

On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 15:06:21 -0600
sol  wrote:

> I thought some silver chloride was formed the instant CS hits the
> stomach? Even an empty stomach.
> Starting with silver chloride from using salt to make the CS would
> just make it worse, but I think some silver chloride happens in the
> body, and certainly would form in the blood, which is salty.
> sol
>
> Indi wrote:
> > I don't think it is likely that true CS can accumulate in your
> > system, or that if it did it would cause blue moons or argyria. As
> > far as I know, the bluish discoloration some people report is
> > caused by silver chloride, which can result when salt or baking
> > soda is used as a conductive starter to make CS, or when water
> > other than distilled is used to make it. Best to always use only
> > distilled water, and to use a small amount of a known pure CS for
> > starter when making CS. I have never seen any other symptom of
> > argyria reported, only the discoloration.
> >
> >
>
>
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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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9:20 AM

Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct

Good luck with it Sandee, I am having really good results using aerobic 
oxygen i.e. more energy and no constipation (or a lot less) which I 
haven't experienced for years!  dee


Sandee George wrote:

You know Dee you may have a point here - I used to do oxygen therapy when
I lived in New Mexico
and I do not think I had any blue moons then, maybe I will give it a shot
again and see what happens
nothing beats a failure better than a try    



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

And from what I can gather from the very knowledgeable people on this 
list, *this* is also misinformation!  We all make ionic silver here and 
there definitely *is* benefit from taking it internally as I and  
everyone else can testify.  How can you state this with no proof at all, 
and in the face of all our anecdotal evidence which suggests that this 
is quite wrong.  I have been taking ionic silver on a daily basis for 
three years or more, and have had no bad effects at all, only good. dee


Indi wrote:

Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be
a small amount of ionic silver. This can be mostly eliminated by
exposure to sunlight though. You are correct that silver ions will
react with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and result in silver
chloride formation. With ionic silver, if it is potent enough (high
PPM) this can become a dangerous amount of silver chloride. "Dangerous"
meaning one may get argyria. In any event, ionic silver should not be
taken internally due to the fact that it is immediately transformed into
silver chloride, which is then stored in the body. There is no health
benefit to be gained from taking ionic silver internally, although it
can work as a topical antiseptic. It does have a very short shelf life,
and is inferior to colloidal silver.

  
  



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Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

It was that man recently wasn't it that they found silver in his brain, 
but only after he had been taking a concoction of drugs as well. Maybe 
the drugs caused the silver to stay there and not be excreted, who 
knows?  And anyway, they still couldn't say what actually killed him 
could they, so the fact that they found silver may be irrelevant.  dee


sol wrote:
Somewhere I did see some reports that silver has been found in the 
brain in autopsy. Don't remember where. Apparently that is one 
argument for the "danger" of CS. I've also seen claims that silver 
builds up in the kidneys of animals and causes kidney damage. I could 
not find any substantiation for that. (Apparently it does deposit in 
kidneys, but I can't substantiate that it causes any harm at all, let 
alone damage severe enough to cause death).
Don't have any references to hand on any of that though, so just from 
memory.

sol





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Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-06 Thread Neville


Hi sol,
OK, delete the word 'enhance' from my statement and replace it with 'aid', 
or 'compliment' maybe, however they all mean the same thing to me.


Maybe I should have put it another way...if we had no, none, zilch, zap, 
nada, jack, zero or bereft of silver in the body, be it in the form of ions, 
colloids, or solid silver ingots the immune system would not function as 
efficiently.  That's all I was trying to say, and it's by those means I, 
quote, "think this could happen".  Silver may not necessarily be essential 
in the body but without it we would be on shaky ground, whatever the form 
silver takes.


Sorry, I'm no brain surgeon or Harvard scholar and am only able to converse 
in general terms, I can't get into pedantics as I'm not that academically 
inclined, I can only speak in generalities and make the assumption others 
would see what I mean in the broader sense, or read between the lines if you 
like.


N.

- Original Message - 
From: "sol" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited



Neville wrote:
Now you are getting close, yes, as with all trace elements in the body, 
they are in colloidal form and silver will be among them so of course 
silver will 'show up' on examination.  Silver plays no other role, to my 
knowledge, in the body other than to enhance the immune mechanism in our 
bodies,

Neville,
 So far as my own research has been able to turn up as well as my own 
personal anecdotal experiences, silver does zero, zip, nada to enhance the 
immune system. What it does is kill pathogens, bacteria, viruses, and some 
fungi,  thereby reducing the load on the immune system and giving the 
appearance of immune improvement. But direct stimulation of the immune 
system? Don't think so. By what means do you think this could happen?

sol


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Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Neville wrote:
Now you are getting close, yes, as with all trace elements in the 
body, they are in colloidal form and silver will be among them so of 
course silver will 'show up' on examination.  Silver plays no other 
role, to my knowledge, in the body other than to enhance the immune 
mechanism in our bodies, 

Neville,
 So far as my own research has been able to turn up as well as my own 
personal anecdotal experiences, silver does zero, zip, nada to enhance 
the immune system. What it does is kill pathogens, bacteria, viruses, 
and some fungi,  thereby reducing the load on the immune system and 
giving the appearance of immune improvement. But direct stimulation of 
the immune system? Don't think so. By what means do you think this could 
happen?

sol


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Yes well, perhaps I should try to be more open-minded then.
My own personal studies and experience have led me to form some pretty 
strong opinions, but it's true that personal experiences and results may
vary widely. I think I am getting a good handle on what works for me, at
least in a basic sense, but as I said I am no doctor. It would be a
mistake to assume that what works for my health issues is the only
"correct" treatment. I will try to avoid such blanket statements in the
future on this list. In the absence of any qualified authority in the
field, we must each find our own way as best we can. Thanks for
the pointer. :)




On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:45:53 -5
"M. G. Devour"  wrote:

> Indi wrote:
> 
> > Also, those reading my words should know I have been mostly
> > unsuccessful at trying to get what I'd call accurate, unbiased
> > medical advice about CS and other alternative treatments. All I
> > really have to go by is my limited scientific knowledge of
> > chemistry and physics, and my own (obviously anecdotal) personal
> > experience. 
> 
> That is a basic condition of the whole area of study, re: CS. Nothing 
> that's studied and found in journal articles bears much resemblence
> to what we're making and using.
> 
> In fact, what we do have is many years and many people's personal, 
> anecdotal experiences plus limited clinical results, along with
> various experiments by amateurs and the occasional professional or
> semi- professional.  
> 
> Among the consensus results is that "true colloidal" and "ionic" both 
> seem to work very well. 
> 
> Remember that "ionic" silver will a) complex to form metallo-proteins 
> in the saliva during sublingual absorption, and b) form silver
> chloride in the stomach, which in the small quantities involved is
> largely soluble, thereby remaining bio-available and active.
> 
> If it's the minority colloidal component that makes "ionic" silver 
> successful for so many, then so be it. It's also not caused problems 
> when made properly and used responsibly.
> 
> Of course, that situation may change, just as we've finally seen
> cases of argyria for people using archaic recipes using a bit of salt
> brine as an accelerant, to add to other known cases from concentrated
> silver salts, silver proteins, and other silver compounds.
> 
> Blanket statements that particulate is good and ionic is bad are
> likely as incomplete and inaccurate as their opposite numbers.
> 
> Be well,
> 
> Mike D.
> 
> [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
> [mdev...@eskimo.com]
> [Speaking only for myself...   ]
> 
> 
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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-05 Thread M. G. Devour

Indi wrote:

> Also, those reading my words should know I have been mostly
> unsuccessful at trying to get what I'd call accurate, unbiased medical
> advice about CS and other alternative treatments. All I really have to
> go by is my limited scientific knowledge of chemistry and physics, and
> my own (obviously anecdotal) personal experience. 

That is a basic condition of the whole area of study, re: CS. Nothing 
that's studied and found in journal articles bears much resemblence to 
what we're making and using.

In fact, what we do have is many years and many people's personal, 
anecdotal experiences plus limited clinical results, along with various 
experiments by amateurs and the occasional professional or semi-
professional.  

Among the consensus results is that "true colloidal" and "ionic" both 
seem to work very well. 

Remember that "ionic" silver will a) complex to form metallo-proteins 
in the saliva during sublingual absorption, and b) form silver chloride 
in the stomach, which in the small quantities involved is largely 
soluble, thereby remaining bio-available and active.

If it's the minority colloidal component that makes "ionic" silver 
successful for so many, then so be it. It's also not caused problems 
when made properly and used responsibly.

Of course, that situation may change, just as we've finally seen cases 
of argyria for people using archaic recipes using a bit of salt brine 
as an accelerant, to add to other known cases from concentrated silver 
salts, silver proteins, and other silver compounds.

Blanket statements that particulate is good and ionic is bad are likely 
as incomplete and inaccurate as their opposite numbers.

Be well,

Mike D.

[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com]
[Speaking only for myself...   ]

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Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-05 Thread Neville

Now you are getting close, yes, as with all trace elements in the body, they 
are in colloidal form and silver will be among them so of course silver will 
'show up' on examination.  Silver plays no other role, to my knowledge, in 
the body other than to enhance the immune mechanism in our bodies, as with 
the individual purposes all other trace elements perform in the body, (which 
we would be ingesting naturally if the food we ate contained silver as well 
as all the other elements, but as we all know that is becoming more 
impossible every day with the mutilation and degridation of produce and 
soils).  But as I said, I am sticking my hand up and stating that I will not 
accept that this is an argument for 'dangers' of CS.  If I accepted most of 
what is anecdotal I would be with governments and pharmaceutical companies 
and be doing my utmost to drag CS down into the gutter where they think it 
belongs.  I refuse to do that, I've read too much about it.  There is too 
much talk and not enough action, someone has to stand their ground and I 
guess it's going to be me, call me a rebel or call me an idiot, I don't 
care.  More material needs to be made available to prove or disprove one 
thing or another and until I see proof I am going with the research I have 
done.  I have said before and I'll say it again, there is too much anecdotal 
'it could do this' or 'it may cause that' etc etc, someone needs to stand by 
CS regardless and I have made my decision based on research.  Any side issue 
relating to CS will be caused by some other issue which may be evident in 
the body and as a consequence I cannot agree with any supposition that CS 
has played a part in that cause and effect.   Hey, I am only a mug punter 
here as all you's know far more than I do regarding a whole range of things 
which I haven't the foggiest idea about but poor old EICS still seems to 
carry 'doubts' with most, I won't accept 'doubts' anymore, the more one 
reads about CS the more complicated it can, and will, become.  Oh, there is 
a medical condition regarding poor blood circulation which will cause 
'colour' as well but I will need to find the medical terminology for that 
again.  From a personal perspective I think people have read too much 'bad' 
stuff and when some 'effect' may become 'evident' they quickly associate it 
with CS, and for those who ingest it a tentative finger is always pointed at 
CS, only because of all the BS that is readily available, the nagging 
thought is always in the back of the head when quite possibly there should 
be no thoughts at all regarding the use of CS.who knows?  I have made my 
mind up on that.


This is all only my opinion of course, but I'm sticking with it, if it 
achieves nothing else it will be percieved as confirmation for those out 
there who may have doubts, or critisism from you people of my way of 
thinking, but most importantly it should provoke legitimate discussion here 
for the broader audience, call it for the purpose of more 'research' if you 
want, the more 'factual' information available, the better off everyone will 
beincluding me.  I don't mind stepping into the ring if it's for a 
good cause, and I believe CS is a good cause.  Yeah and I think the silence 
is a little deafening too, come on, get the axe out and cut me down. 


Cheers...N.

- Original Message - 
From: "sol" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Somewhere I did see some reports that silver has been found in the brain 
in autopsy. Don't remember where. Apparently that is one argument for the 
"danger" of CS. I've also seen claims that silver builds up in the kidneys 
of animals and causes kidney damage. I could not find any substantiation 
for that. (Apparently it does deposit in kidneys, but I can't substantiate 
that it causes any harm at all, let alone damage severe enough to cause 
death).
Don't have any references to hand on any of that though, so just from 
memory.

sol



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct

2008-10-05 Thread Sandee George

Hi There Sol - as I said, I did IV chelation, which has to be given by a
medical doctor, in the first instance
I did 21 bottles, then a second go-round a year later of 15 - this was
about 15 years ago.If you would like to read about it here is a good
book on it called  "Bypassing a Bypass" Most people go for the
oral chelation today however from my experience it is not as effective -
as from time I have tried this
method and I feel very little difference compared to when I did the IV
mode After three bottles I felt
on top of the world the first time around 
Take good care of you
Sandee

Peace is easy . . . It is a mind set
www.aliveagaingrenada.com

Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition!
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Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct

2008-10-05 Thread Sandee George

You know Dee you may have a point here - I used to do oxygen therapy when
I lived in New Mexico
and I do not think I had any blue moons then, maybe I will give it a shot
again and see what happens
nothing beats a failure better than a try    Will touch base again
when I have done it for a while and
report on the progress 
Take good care
Sandee
 
Peace is easy . . . It is a mind set
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the next level. 
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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:50:05 GMT
"craehow...@juno.com"  wrote:

> If I did the CS only I could go on a months vacation and
> not worry about that little room.  

Forgive me being so dense; I missed what you meant there. If I
understand correctly you're saying that for someone who is constipated
killing the digestive bacteria will not give them diarrhea, or perhaps
that killing the digestive bacteria causes you the opposite problem it
does me. I had never though of that, and really I wouldn't know as I've
never had that problem (I think it's because I gave up eating meat as a
teenager, and rarely consume white flour or white sugar -- but maybe
it's just genetic, who knows?). So, perhaps my assumption was incorrect,
sorry. 

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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Wow, that's a lot of probiotic (and a lot of CS).

I probably should have been more clear; I'm not saying 
that people are untruthful about how much CS they take, just that often
what they are taking is not what they think it is.
And I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, BTW.
Perhaps it was tactless of me to say anything at all, but for those of
us who are experiencing illness I think truth trumps tact. :)

Also, those reading my words should know I have been mostly unsuccessful
at trying to get what I'd call accurate, unbiased medical advice about
CS and other alternative treatments. All I really have to go by is my
limited scientific knowledge of chemistry and physics, and my own
(obviously anecdotal) personal experience. 

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:50:05 GMT
"craehow...@juno.com"  wrote:

> Just had to comment on the statement "would not be able to venture
> far from the bathroom"... I take large quantities of Collodial Silver
> daily (15-20ppm).  This means a quart or more.  I also take numerous
> probotics and have also started making my own Kim-Che (natural
> probotics).  If I did the CS only I could go on a months vacation and
> not worry about that little room.  That is why I take the probotics
> and Blessed Herbs "Digestive Stimulator".  I go through 2 to 3 bottle
> per month.  Also, I take Garden of Life "Primal Defense - HSO
> Probiotic Formula" a bottle a month.   So that statement above most
> definitely does not apply to me. connie
> 
> 
> Beauty School Programs - Get the career you've always wanted. Click
> Now.
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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

2008-10-05 Thread craehow...@juno.com

Just had to comment on the statement "would not be able to venture far from the 
bathroom"...
I take large quantities of Collodial Silver daily (15-20ppm).  This means a 
quart or more.  I also take numerous probotics and have also started making my 
own Kim-Che (natural probotics).  If I did the CS only I could go on a months 
vacation and not worry about that little room.  That is why I take the 
probotics and Blessed Herbs "Digestive Stimulator".  I go through 2 to 3 bottle 
per month.  Also, I take Garden of Life "Primal Defense - HSO Probiotic 
Formula" a bottle a month.   So that statement above most definitely does not 
apply to me.
connie


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be
a small amount of ionic silver. This can be mostly eliminated by
exposure to sunlight though. You are correct that silver ions will
react with the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and result in silver
chloride formation. With ionic silver, if it is potent enough (high
PPM) this can become a dangerous amount of silver chloride. "Dangerous"
meaning one may get argyria. In any event, ionic silver should not be
taken internally due to the fact that it is immediately transformed into
silver chloride, which is then stored in the body. There is no health
benefit to be gained from taking ionic silver internally, although it
can work as a topical antiseptic. It does have a very short shelf life,
and is inferior to colloidal silver.

True colloidal silver is composed of nano-sized particles, not ions.
It s not light-sensitive. The key to making it is to use high voltage
AC current. Low voltage DC current will only produce mostly ionic
silver. I am not sure what the optimum voltage and amperage are; I seem
to be successful using a 4,800 volt transformer rated at 30 milliamps.
(If you decide to do this, please do your homework re handling high
voltages first!)

I have found that when taking CS it is necessary to also use a
probiotic, as CS will kill the friendly bacteria in the digestive
system as well. It does not discriminate between "good" and "bad"
microorganisms. I know there are many people who claim they take large
doses of CS for long periods, but my experience indicates that if that
were true they'd not be able to venture far from the bathroom!

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation about CS. I suspect the
FDA and AMA like it that way. So long as ineffective and even dangerous
products can be legally called "colloidal silver", the big drug
companies can justify pushing patented antibiotics.  

On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 15:06:21 -0600
sol  wrote:

> I thought some silver chloride was formed the instant CS hits the 
> stomach? Even an empty stomach.
> Starting with silver chloride from using salt to make the CS would
> just make it worse, but I think some silver chloride happens in the
> body, and certainly would form in the blood, which is salty.
> sol
> 
> Indi wrote:
> > I don't think it is likely that true CS can accumulate in your
> > system, or that if it did it would cause blue moons or argyria. As
> > far as I know, the bluish discoloration some people report is
> > caused by silver chloride, which can result when salt or baking
> > soda is used as a conductive starter to make CS, or when water
> > other than distilled is used to make it. Best to always use only
> > distilled water, and to use a small amount of a known pure CS for
> > starter when making CS. I have never seen any other symptom of
> > argyria reported, only the discoloration.
> >
> >   
> 
> 
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Re: CS>blue moons revisited

I thought some silver chloride was formed the instant CS hits the 
stomach? Even an empty stomach.
Starting with silver chloride from using salt to make the CS would just 
make it worse, but I think some silver chloride happens in the body, and 
certainly would form in the blood, which is salty.

sol

Indi wrote:

I don't think it is likely that true CS can accumulate in your system,
or that if it did it would cause blue moons or argyria. As far as I
know, the bluish discoloration some people report is caused by silver
chloride, which can result when salt or baking soda is used as a
conductive starter to make CS, or when water other than distilled is
used to make it. Best to always use only distilled water, and to use a
small amount of a known pure CS for starter when making CS.
I have never seen any other symptom of argyria reported, only the
discoloration.

  



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct


Sandee,
  What kind of chelations did you do? I'm curious to see what happens 
to my nails as I try to get rid of excess iron. I hope they will clear 
up as the iron leaves. I never had them before I started using CS, but 
then I used to be on a very different and iron poor diet while consuming 
a lot of iron absorption blocking foods and beverages. And way before 
that I had the iron poor diet plus I had a lot of actual hemorrhaging 
with menses so that probably kept the iron down.
  My second rank suspicion is if not from iron or silver, it may be due 
to some loss of circulatory efficiency from iron in the heart. This is 
known to be one possible consequence of iron overload, and I do have 
edema in ankles and feet which would go along with that idea. I get the 
edema from time to time, and cannot find a consistent correlation with 
anything in my diet or my meds.
  Re soy, I was being somewhat facetious. However it is interesting 
that over the years that I have avoided soy proteins of any kind, as 
well as cutting way back on tea (fluoride) and coffee (I forget why), 
and not eating peanuts and whole grains, and a few other things known to 
block iron absorption my ferritin has steadily risen. I had good reasons 
for my dietary choices, such as the phytates of grains also block 
absorption of other minerals such as calcium, and vitamins such as B-12. 
And soy definitely interferes with thyroid hormone and function, and 
also messes up the s*x hormones, but I may have needed the iron blocking 
it provided.  As in physics, so in the bodyEVERYTHING has an 
equal and opposite reaction. Or so it seems.
  It has also been interesting to read that the body has NO method of 
getting rid of iron. The only way it can deal with iron excess is to 
stuff it away in body tissues, and its favorite places are the organs. 
Humans only lose about 1-2 mg of iron daily, through sweat, urine and 
sloughing of skin nails and hair and loss of the intestinal cells that 
shed back into the bowel. (paraphrased from "Protein Power LifePlan". 
The body hangs onto iron very tightly.
  I was interested also to read that the diseases that seem to run in 
my family are those that can be caused or worsened by too much iron, so 
I may have a genetic component too. Well, those diseases can be caused 
by a bunch of other things also, but I did find it interesting.

sol

Sandee George wrote:

Hi There Neville - I concur with what you said  -  I myself have had blue
moons on and off over my life
starting from childhood, all long before I started using EIS so both Sol
and I have some other factor
which is causing this and I do believe it is the retention of heavy
metals from some other aspect in our lives, I have had two series of IV
chelation over the past 12 years and every time I do this the blue moons
go for about a year and then slowly return, so it is something definitely
in my case to do with the way in which my body processes food etc., 
which is a contributory factor here - now what exactly that is I have 
yet to discover when I do I will let everyone know - however until then
blue moons are nothing more than additional attraction to my hands ! 
  What I usually tell those who ask why is that I have a very high

iron reading in my body  I do believe that this is the case,
however cannot prove it as yet I
am NOT about to use soy to find this answer 
Cheers to all
Sandee

  



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Re: Fw: Re: CS>blue moons revisited

Somewhere I did see some reports that silver has been found in the brain 
in autopsy. Don't remember where. Apparently that is one argument for 
the "danger" of CS. I've also seen claims that silver builds up in the 
kidneys of animals and causes kidney damage. I could not find any 
substantiation for that. (Apparently it does deposit in kidneys, but I 
can't substantiate that it causes any harm at all, let alone damage 
severe enough to cause death).
Don't have any references to hand on any of that though, so just from 
memory.

sol

craehow...@juno.com wrote:


Question:   If; in fact, Collodial Silver did accumulate (beyond 
turning blue) what could we expect that to cause?   I feel that a 
portion of the silver that we are digesting is building up; mainly 
because our elimination systems are not fuctioning well.  I know that 
mine has been a problem for 20+ years and I am now 61.  I've never 
been a junk food addict or consumed what was considered the tabo types 
of foods.  I loved my vegetables and ate very little meat. 

Has anyone seen any information on this? 




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Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Neville wrote:
Don't misunderstand sol, I'm not talking about the pathogen aspect of 
CS, I'm aware of that, I'm referring to the fact that the ingestion of 
CS, using the appropriate protocols as we know are required for the 
production thereof, there should be NO issues if all we have 
researched, based on repeated experimental and scientific evidence, is 
to remain credible.  Do you see what I mean?  
No, I don't see. Individuals differ, and it is known that some people DO 
develop argryia even from very good pure EIS. It is very rare and I 
believe is thought to be from some imbalance in the person, say low 
selenium levels.
I don't think you can make the generalization that NO ONE ever can or 
should develop any measure of argryia from even properly made CS. People 
are not all the same, and as my husband says "shit happens". I don't 
think the fact that argryia happens says anything at all about what we 
know about CS or should be the determination if we should use it or not. 
Your argument doesn't make any sense to me.
It may not be that silver has the capacity to build up in the body, we 
know it has that capacity, given the right conditions. It is whether the 
particular body in question is more likely than a different body to have 
the build up happen. In that sense, I do believe your research sources 
at fault. Silver can and does deposit in body tissues, that is 
documented. And as I said, not only inferior, poorly made silver, silver 
chloride, silver proteins, etc. Silver doesn't stay an ion long in the 
body after all, but apparently actively changes from one form to 
another, one compound to another.
If you expect every single ion or particle of silver you ingest to exit 
the body I think your expectations are unrealistic in the extreme. Most 
of it is excreted, surely, but not all of it probably, and certainly 
some people retain more than others for unknown reasons. Sometimes the 
reason is as simple as ingesting crappy CS that is bound to be a 
problem, but not always.

Marshall? Mike? Ode? Do I have this wrong?
sol


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Re: CS>blue moons revisited


Connie,
 I take you to mean you don't know your iron levels?
sol

craehow...@juno.com wrote:


In answer to your questions regarding my iron and other levels or 
tests.  As a retired Vet I receive my medical through the Air Force 
Academy and have had blood work done that has returned only one 
problem and that was not really a problem, just an awareness check.  I 
see my doctor rarely and usually just to get a referral to someone; 
i.e. Physical Therapy, Bio-feedback.  Since having Cancer in 1994 I 
pay attention to my body and lifestyle.  I spent more time and energy 
on detoxifying my body... I believe that is the cause of most, if not 
all our problems.  Even when I had the cancer I did not let the 
doctors dictate my treatment.. and only did the minimum that the Air 
Force required to allow me to return to duty.  




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Re: CS>blue moons revisited - replied 5 Oct

2008-10-05 Thread Dee

Maybe it is not enough oxygen in the system for some reason?  This can 
be the cause for things turning blue, ie. lips etc., dee


Sandee George wrote:

Hi There Neville - I concur with what you said  -  I myself have had blue
moons on and off over my life
starting from childhood, all long before I started using EIS so both Sol
and I have some other factor
which is causing this and I do believe it is the retention of heavy
metals from some other aspect in our lives, I have had two series of IV
chelation over the past 12 years and every time I do this the blue moons
go for about a year and then slowly return, so it is something definitely
in my case to do with the way in which my body processes food etc., 
which is a contributory factor here - now what exactly that is I have 
yet to discover when I do I will let everyone know - however until then
blue moons are nothing more than additional attraction to my hands ! 
  What I usually tell those who ask why is that I have a very high

iron reading in my body  I do believe that this is the case,
however cannot prove it as yet I
am NOT about to use soy to find this answer 
Cheers to all
Sandee

Peace is easy . . . It is a mind set
www.aliveagaingrenada.com


  



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Re: CS>blue moons revisited