[e-gold-list] Re: The future for gold backed currency??
At 08:57 PM 9/30/2001 +1000, Patrik Isacsson wrote: * Not integrated in existing banking systems * No flexible shopping online and offline To which Michael Moore responded... There is some form of intergration in that you can secure a debit card with standard reserve to which a hard currency back currency can be linked. As Michael said, you can extract your Standard Reserve funds at over 601,000 ATM's worldwide, and our ATM cards can be used at over 3 million POS units worldwide wherever the Mastercard/Cirrus/Maestro ATM or pin-based POS is used. Actually it seems to cross to the Plus network also, as I extracted funds at a local Barclays ATM and that is Plus. * Not integrated in existing banking systems And our subsidiary agents and some of our exchange agents are linked into the banking system by accepting lock box and direct deposit at branches in a particular country. That is one of the major requirements to become a subsidiary agent - you need to have a link to the local fiat currency. For example, Standard Transactions (USA) Ltd. has (or will have) banking capabilities throughout the U.S. We want to make it easy for customers to inexchange as well as outexchange. Also, the Standard Group is building a huge network of agents worldwide. We have contracted to bring on 300 syndicated agents by the end of 2002 (70 more this year), in addition to 130 subsidiary agents, which will bring with it approx 10,000 exchange agents (including the Cook Islands and your country - Niue). This weekend, three of our team are out of the country training five new syndicated agents and the session is being professionally videotaped to be used to train other agents. The Standard Group differs slightly from e-Gold, in that we are a global payment/transaction company and not just a gold exchange company. There are approximately 250,000 people involved in the gold economy, i.e., digital gold. Yet there are 2 billion people worldwide who want to deal in gold if there was an easier way. Hopefully we will provide a better way with our solutions and some of the new products we are introducing very shortly. BTW, we are looking for subsidiary agents and exchange agents. If you are interested send a message (which will give you an autoresponder with more information) to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=Info_STAX_ENL George __ George Matyjewicz, President/General Manager Standard Transactions (BVI) Limited http://www.standardtransactions.com http://www.standardreserve.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Standard Transactions Agent Xchange http://128.121.218.67/stax/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-metal is a wonderful holiday gift? Avoid the hassle this year!
[e-gold-list] Re: a sad list
Tara (and everyone else interested), I believe that Standard Reserve's CEO George Matyjewicz is setting up a special SR account for donations to the Red Cross. For anyone else interested in contributing (George will be sending out a detailed message) Gaithmans has agreed to waive fees on exchanges made to help with the donation fund. Thanks, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - - - - - - - - - - advertisement - - - - - - - - - - Buy anything from Amazon.com NOW using e-gold: http://www.bananagold.com/use.cgi?g Bananagold--the biggest e-gold commerce site. - - - - - - - - - - advertisement - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - From: Tara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:22 AM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: a sad list Hi I was going to make a Donation to this account but the preview said the account was called Ace's E Gold Account or something like that???! T. *SNIP*States of America.Please join us in donating money to the Red Cross to support the victims. We have setup a special account at Standard Reserve for you to send your donations - Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund account # 137221 --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
Annual production and demand are not relevant when it comes to determining the long term price of gold. At best, they are only short term influence. The reason is because of a very large above ground inventory that is at least 40 times larger than annual production/demand numbers. The past decade saw a steady annual deficit which was covered by gold dumped on the market by various sources holding inventory including mostly central banks and bullion banks playing the gold carry trade. The price of gold is the intersection of supply and demand curves. Gold has two demands -- demand for consumption and demand for investment (inventory building/bullion stockpiling). The non-investment demand (a.k.a non-monetary demand) is determined by the marginal revenue product of gold in industry. This will be like any other industrial input, subject to dimising returns the more it is used, and thus its demand curve will be downward sloping. The supply of gold is made up of mining and recycling supplies, and the supply function is similar to that of other competitive industries (i.e. number of firms is that which minimises average cost, price equals margin costs, supply is an increasing function of price etc.). The price of gold can therefore be modelled as a traditional supply/demand curve graph. The price can be read from the graph by finding the price where the surplus (supply less non-monetary demand) equals the gold accumulation. In the case of a sharp accumulation the price of gold would rise, reducing non-monetary demand and increasing supply, in the case of a reduction in accumulated stocks the price of gold would fall, increasing non-monetary consumption and reducing supply. In the long term the price of gold is tedetmined by the marginal cost of extraction and the marginal revenue product in industry, in the short term it is influenced by inventory accumulation or reductions. David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
I think that this is the article that Ken Griffith refered to this afternoon. http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2834chervonetz.html --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Gold-backed Digital Currency
Question ??? If the entire world switched to using e-gold today, for all their direct debit financial transactions, is there enough gold currently available to back it? --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] RE: Gold-backed Digital Currency
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello David, very good question! If the entire world switched to using e-gold today, for all their direct debit financial transactions, is there enough "gold" currently available to "back it?" Basically yes - but that would mean that gold will cost much-much more than in costs today as there will be much bigger demand for it. Maybe you can buy good shoes with 1 gram then... Regards, Paul Vahur IceGold http://www.icegold.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO5x6TkkfcBeFLocdEQLPpQCfdc2EAJyP0lsRPZadD+kv8jonsKYAnjDz Rmz/uK8red9MyxPXJ4Ip/J1+ =zV5N -END PGP SIGNATURE- --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
David Barrington wrote: Question ??? If the entire world switched to using e-gold today, for all their direct debit financial transactions, is there enough gold currently available to back it? Probably not at $300 an ounce but there would be at some much higher price. -- Life, Love and Laughter, Dale Pond Sympathetic Vibratory Physics Sacred Science - Sacred Life http://www.svpvril.com SVP Discussion Forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svpvril/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
- Original Message - From: David Barrington [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:42 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Gold-backed Digital Currency Question ??? If the entire world switched to using e-gold today, for all their direct debit financial transactions, is there enough gold currently available to back it? SNIP Answer: Yes! But... It's not going to happen. One currency (or transaction system) will never have 100 percent market share on financial transactions, and even if gold-back currencies had 100 percent, other GBCs would have some market share. Even if e-gold had 100 percent, then other e-metals would be purchased and used long before all the available gold in the world were bailed into the e-gold system. One may calculate the current value of gold against the quantity of gold and the current value of such transactions conducted worldwide if one has the data, and claim that there is not enough gold to cover that much money worth of transactions, but (regardless of the actual quantity of gold or global direct debit transactions) if all the gold were demanded for these transactions (that ain't going to happen) then the price would rise sufficiently to buy all the gold, and *that price* multiplied by the quantity transacted would be sufficiently high to match the entire world's direct debit transactions. Ian Green http://two-cents-worth.com/?107242 e-gold estas monda mono! [Esperanto] e-gold is world money! [English] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
Claude, This is an interesting question. If the entire world switched to using e-gold today, for all their direct debit financial transactions, is there enough gold currently available to back it? Sure. The price would simply have to go up. Yes, but there is another factor which perhaps you will have the facts to elucidate. It is estimated that there are 140,000 tons of gold in global world reserves (of which e-gold has almost 2 tons) worth approximately $1.26 trillions. The money stocks of fiat currencies are estimated at 25 trillions in USD equivalent. Thus the gold price would have to rise to roughly $5500 per ounce ($25/1.26 * $275) for each unit of fiat currency to be 100% backed by gold. It might not actually have to go so high to do the job. How much e-gold would actually be needed? This depends on how efficiently it is used or how fast it circulates. Currently on the order of 10% (sometimes less, sometime more) of the total backing value of e-gold circulates EVERY day. What are the comparable figures for fiat currency? Do you know? If, as I suspect, e-gold is much more efficient than fiat currency and circulates with a much higher velocity a much smaller value of e-gold might be required to support the same trade. Best, Craig --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
Come on guys lets have some clear and logical thinking. Gold stocks are like any other inventory, something which can be increased by investment (surplus of production over consumption). The supply curve for gold is upward sloping, like most supply curves, and thus an increased demand for gold inventories would increase the price of gold. The increase in price would reduce gold consumption and inventories of gold would rise. The global stock of money includes all bank deposits, not just the monetary base of notes, coins and reserve/settlement bank balances. Individuals hold money to obtain interest as well as to make transactions, and thus there is a demand for money backed by interest bearing lending as well as liquid reserves, i.e. bank money. The stock of gold needed to support a gold monetary system is a small fraction of the stock of money, even if the monetary base were to be 100% gold backed. The price of gold would rise if the world were to adopt a gold monetary system, but not exceedingly greatly. It all depends on the elasticity of the supply and demand gold production/consumption, and the additional need for inventories a gold monetary system would demand. David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
On 10 Sep 2001, at 6:13, David Hillary wrote: Hello David. Gold stocks are like any other inventory, something which can be increased by investment (surplus of production over consumption). Gold, unlike most other products, is not consumed for the larger part. It is accumulated (saved) in the form of jewellery, gold bars, coins. Most of the gold produced since man-kind exists is still available and held by someone as a store of value. Annual production and demand are not relevant when it comes to determining the long term price of gold. At best, they are only short term influence. The reason is because of a very large above ground inventory that is at least 40 times larger than annual production/demand numbers. The past decade saw a steady annual deficit which was covered by gold dumped on the market by various sources holding inventory including mostly central banks and bullion banks playing the gold carry trade. Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com = Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/keys/ClaudeCormier.asc = --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] It's all relative (was Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
At 06:13 AM 9/10/2001 +1000, David Hillary wrote: Gold stocks are like any other inventory, something which can be increased by investment (surplus of production over consumption). The supply curve for gold is upward sloping, like most supply curves, and thus an increased demand for gold inventories would increase the price of gold. The increase in price would reduce gold consumption and inventories of gold would rise. I heard a statement at a conference last week that Christ's robes cost 30 grams of gold, or the equivalent value in today's dollars of approx $262. Which is close to the same price one might pay for a suit of clothes today. Therefore, in 2,000 years gold has been stable. Of course, I would like to know where the 30 grams of gold statement came from, as I can't find it on Google. George __ George Matyjewicz, President/General Manager Standard Transactions (BVI) Limited http://www.standardtransactions.com http://www.standardreserve.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Standard Transactions Agent Xchange http://128.121.218.67/stax/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: It's all relative (was Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
| I heard a statement at a conference last week that Christ's robes cost 30 | grams of gold, or the equivalent value in today's dollars of approx | $262. Which is close to the same price one might pay for a suit of clothes | today. Therefore, in 2,000 years gold has been stable. Roman legionaires were payed 1 aureus per month - about 7 grams of gold. Seems like an expensive suit, though not impossible. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Gold-backed Digital Currency
C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc. wrote: Thus the gold price would have to rise to roughly $5500 per ounce ($25/1.26 * $275) for each unit of fiat currency to be 100% backed by gold. Demand draws supply - if gold got that valuable, sources would be found, and the supply would reinflate. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Calling Parker Bradley
Anyone know Parker's new e-mail address? Thanks, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - - - - - - - - - - advertisement - - - - - - - - - - Buy anything from Amazon.com NOW using e-gold: http://www.bananagold.com/use.cgi?g Bananagold--the biggest e-gold commerce site. - - - - - - - - - - advertisement - - - - - - - - - - --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Money Honor
Subject: ip: Money Honor Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:45:24 -0400 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- begin forwarded text Status: U Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:54:06 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (by way of [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Subject: ip: Money Honor Money Honor by Joseph Sobran http://www.lewrockwell.com/sobran/sobran191.html James Madison observed that liberty is lost more often through gradual encroachments than through sudden revolutions. This is also known as the boiling-frog principle: if the water heats slowly, they say, the frog doesnâ*t notice the fatal increase and fails to jump out in time. I donâ*t know about frogs, but I keep an eye on people, and Iâ*ve concluded that theyâ*ll put up with anything if they can get used to it by slow degrees until theyâ*re convinced itâ*s the way things have always been. Weâ*ve long since passed the point our ancestors would have recognized as the dividing line between liberty and tyranny. The first income tax imposed in this country, during the Civil War, caused outrage and was eventually declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court. The rate was 3 per cent on all income between $600 and $10,000; those tycoons making more than $10,000 paid 5 per cent. The federal government justified this crushing tax on grounds of a pressing national emergency, but it was hated anyway. Americans saw it as an act of tyranny, a dangerous first step toward the loss of all their freedom. Today, if a president could get tax rates down to the 3-to-5 per cent range, he would be a hero to taxpayers. They would probably honor him as the Great Emancipator. Not that any modern president would harbor any such utopian goal as restoring the tax rates of yore. Liberals attack President Bush as irresponsible for seeking to limit the top tax rate to 33 per cent. One reason Americans have such poor historical memories is that they are systematically cut off from their past by their own money. The government has debased its own currency so badly that comparisons with the past are difficult. Today a $10,000 income makes you a poor man. A century ago it would have meant that you were rich. Even when I was a young man, $10,000 was still a very good annual income. By the time I was making that kind of money, it was just enough to live on, but I still paid tax on it at rates that had been designed to soak the rich. A state without justice, St. Augustine said, is nothing but a band of robbers. In this country there is no longer a pretense of justice about it. The governmentâ*s chief function is extorting money from us and giving it to others. It has the power to do with impunity what private persons would go to prison for doing. It is, literally, organized crime. But the frog still doesnâ*t notice the rising temperature. Our ancestors thought diluting the currency was one of the foulest things a government could do. That was what counterfeiters did: robbery of the general population through bogus increases in the money supply. The U.S. Constitution not only charged the federal government with preserving the value of money, but specifically authorized it to punish counterfeiting. Today that selfsame government effectively counterfeits its own money. And it does so on a scale no private counterfeiter could ever match. But do we protest? No. We take inflation for granted, as a normal and inevitable fact of economic life, with no moral or criminal dimension. Once upon a time, a dollar was a dollar: not a piece of paper, but a fixed amount of precious metal. It was hard to fake. The federal government was authorized to coin it, not print it. Paper money, or bills of credit, was suspect; it had to be strictly tied to metal, for the general safety of society. The governmentâ*s honor was staked to the stable value of its money. A government that, over time, reduced the value of its own money to a small fraction of its original value, as ours has done, would be regarded as criminal, tyrannical, and also incompetent. But weâ*re not complaining. We donâ*t even remember that things were ever any different. We canâ*t even imagine a government behaving honorably. The very concept of honor is equally unfamiliar to politicians and to government experts. But Iâ*d like to close on a positive note. So let me record my grateful acknowledgment that this government has never quartered a single soldier in my home. Whatever can be said about the rest of the Constitution, the Third Amendment is alive and well. Joe Sobran is a nationally syndicated columnist. He also writes Washington Watch for The Wanderer, a weekly Catholic newspaper, and edits SOBRAN'S, a monthly newsletter of his essays and columns. Get a free copy of Joe Sobran's lecture, How Tyranny Came to America by subscribing to SOBRAN'S. See www.sobran.com for details. For a free sample
[e-gold-list] Re: hansabux for e-gold
does anyone accept e-gold for hansabux? David Just out of interest, David, what are hansabux? offshoresurfer Hansa Bank Trust Company Limited The Hansa Bank Building, Box 213 Landsome Road, The Valley, Anguilla, B.W.I., TV1 02P Phone (264) 497-3800, Fax 497-3801, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] March 16, 2001 Recent Intertrader and Systemics alliance brings forth digital dollar from Hansa Bank Edinburgh (UK), Anguilla (British West Indies), 15th March 2001: Rachel Willmer, CEO of Intertrader Ltd (Edinburgh, UK), today became the first purchaser of the new digital dollar issued by Hansa Bank (Anguilla, British West Indies). Hansa Bank is the only offshore bank in Anguilla, a noted centre for financial cryptography. Hansa has been a consistent supporter of the conferences of the same name, held annually in the Caribbean. Lynwood Bell went on to say: This represents an important step forward in the field of online payments. Hansa Bank and Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. are dedicated to incubating and accelerating technology in new microfinance and digital trading fields. Having digital dollars will add an important trading facility in many B2B applications. Rachel Willmer, CEO of Intertrader (Edinburgh, UK), said I am delighted that the 'Hansa Bank dollar' is now a reality. The CashBox suite of supported payment instruments will soon be enlarged to offer the dollar and other Ricardian contracts, alongside Mondex and e-gold, to enable easy usage of digital dollars in the online retail sector. Ian Grigg, CEO of Systemics, added: Anguilla is a 'technology campus' for innovations like ours. We needed to meld our governance model into that of a forward thinking bank. We could only have done that with an institution like Hansa who already model themselves on the evolving Internet economy. The three companies involved all recognise that building the new economy is about partnering. It's a mistake to think you can build a financial system with just one company, or even an alliance of similar companies. Before we can build in the reliability needed to eliminate risk, we must have an interlocking network of diverse institutions, working together in separate roles, but all separately owned and governed said Ian Grigg. For more information, please contact : Lynwood S. Bell Hansa Bank and Hansa Global Commerce, Inc. Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +1 (264) 497-3800 Fax: +1 (264) 497-3801 Ian Grigg Systemics Inc Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rachel Willmer Intertrader Ltd 5 John's Place Edinburgh EH6 7EW U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 131 553 0380 Fax: +44 (0) 131 553 0381 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.intertrader.com about Hansa Bank Hansa Bank Trust Company Limited was founded in 1984. Its technology incubator/accelerator, Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. became publicly traded in 1985 and focuses in the areas of e-commerce location optimization, international trade technology and the marketing of Internet technologies. Hansa.net and Hansa Bank are part of the Span-Hansa Group comprised of ten organizations doing business in as many international locations. The Group's operations also include financing intellectual property, public stock offerings, acquisitions and mergers, and international marketing. Information on the Span-Hansa Group and other strategic partners can be found on the Company's Internet home page http://www.hansa.net about Intertrader Ltd Intertrader is a technology company specialising in e-payments middleware and applications. Its flagship product is the Intertrader CashBox payment management system. Intertrader have recently released Version 2 of the Intertrader CashBox, which delivers a complete value acquisition solution for payment service providers wishing to acquire Mondex and E-gold value. Version 1 of the CashBox system was used by Bank of Scotland in 1999 in a successful pilot of a pay-for-use Internet-access system. Intertrader recently announced a strategic alliance with Systemics for joint marketing of their combined systems worldwide. The integration of Systemics' Ricardo financial trading products with Intertrader's CashBox payment management system provides a complete solution for companies wishing to issue financial instruments such as currencies, bonds or shares. As a result of this alliance, Intertrader will implement support for Systemics SOX protocol within the Intertrader CashBox system to enable full integration with the Ricardo currency issuer and trading market products and will develop an online exchange application to manage the transfer of value between SOX-enabled currencies and others supported by the CashBox system.p Based in Edinburgh, UK, Intertrader was founded in 1995 by Rachel Willmer, the CEO. Intertrader has been recognised as a pioneer in the field of e-payments, numbering amongst its customers Mondex International, Beenz.com and Bank of Scotland. In 1998, it was chosen for the 1998 Scottish Foresight award from the UK Department of Trade
[e-gold-list] Re: hansabux for e-gold
Or to put it another way, HansaBux are a digital dollar currency (backed by a 100% dollar reserve in a Hansa Bank account) issued by Hansa Bank using Systemics' Ricardo system. We at Intertrader have gone some way towards integrating this into our CashBox system, so rather than making manual payments via WebFunds as at present, a merchant could automate that process. So for example, you could have an automated e-gold-hansabux exchange. This is currently at demonstration level only, but we could take it to production if any worthwhile commercial opportunity arose. Rachel --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] e-gold and WebMoney
Hi, everybody, you were talking about Western Union and mentioned my native payment system:) I have some coments. DSSomething like the scenario below does exist DSin Russia and other Russian speaking countries DSwith WebMoney Internet currency. Thank you, Dmitry for mentioning our moderate success in this :) CVV I can't see this requiring more than a public computer terminal and CVV minimal computer literacy on the parts of both the customer and the CVV employee of the check cashing place. This could be made even simpler by CVV the issuance of individual passcards for e-gold accounts, which could then CVV be swiped at the POS. However, there is always a problem of trust! Look, what if you come to this small office, open e-gold site, enter your acc# and password and make some kind of transfer... This is all done on UNKNOWN computer which can easily write down all your keystrokes, so it can be used later on by owner of this computer. It's even worse than surrender your credit card number toeverybody, because e-gold payments are IRREVERSIBLE. That is the problem. DSWebMoney official site in Russia is -- DShttp://www.webmoney.ru/ Dmitry, you are not comletely informed :) There is also an english version of this site:\ http://www.wmtransfer.com (actually our system is named WebMoney Transfer) DSIndividual scratch-off passcards for webmoney accounts DSare sold in several online stores and through representatives. DSThese accounts contain various values up to 100 US dollars. I would like to add some necessary info: these scratch-cards can be instantly debited to any WebMoney account (purse) just by opening the page on site and entering it's number and pin, hidden under the scratch stripe. DSWebmoney are used to buy banner impressions, DSto pay for remote consulting or web design services, I would also mention the digital merchandises hypermarket http://www.exaccess.ru (english version is comming soon). DSto lend or borrow money on investments exchange, Thank you, I'm proud you've mentioned my modest efforts, because I happen to head this exchange - INternet Direct-access eXchange (INDX) http://www.indx.ru/eng :) By the way, several e-currencies: e-gold, goldmoney, srusd and sraug are traded in lots on this exchange as well as shares in internet-ventures. DSThe number of webmoney users in Russia is quite large also, It can be seen as well as turmover in real time on http://www.wmtransfer.com/systatistics.shtml page. We think this type of disclosure to be absolutely necessary for all payment systems. DSThey can be converted to or from e-gold also, I have to mention that e-gold is converted INSTANTLY to the exchange instruments 0.1EGOLD.MTL and back (fully automated 24/7/365 service) in the Trading system of the Excahnge https://tradee.indx.ru (see e-gold page in Assets section of T/C), these insruments can be bought and sold futher on as well as gg (1.0GMONY.MTL) and SRAUG/SRUSD (1.0SRAUG.MTL / 010SRUSD.CUR) for WebMoney (clearing currency of the Exchange), however gg input/output is not yet automated (next monday is a deadline for this) and Standard Reserve in/out is not automated just because of the lack of available interface (I don't understand their policy to hide it from developers!!!). Sincerely Yours, Alexander V. Fedotov _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.indx.ru [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot (was: When will e-gold become mainstream?)
At 03:21 PM 8/24/2001 -0600, Mike McNamara wrote: I'd have to agree that it's generally not practical for market makers to accept soft currencies in exchange for harder currencies like e-gold! Particularly on an instant basis -- which of course is what appeals to Joe Blow Consumer. This may have contributed to the recent collapse of Flooz. One of the main motivations for using e-gold and other online currencies is privacy. Unfortunately, most e-currency developers and their supporters have exercised a sort of denial regarding privacy. The short analysis below, recently posted to the cypherpunks list (where almost every aspect of digital cash and payment instrument characteristics and societal impact has been discussed since the early '90s), attempts to identify the sweet spot intersecting costs/usage difficulty and the user's need for privacy. The uncontroversial conclusion is that consumer applications, which have been almost the exclusive focus of commercial e-currency systems, are the worst place to initially deploy these products. Small wonder that most have failed. PLOTTING THE COSTS AND BENEFITS OF UNTRACEABILITY Look, this is all part of something I talked about at the June physical meeting in Berkeley: by failing to acknowledge the high-value markets for untraceability, characterized by such things as Swiss bank accounts and income-hiding, porn-trading rings, and information markets, the whole technology of privacy/untraceability gets ghettoized into low-value markets like untraceable subway tokens (wow, gee!), weak versions of proxy surfing tools, and boring attempts to get people to use digital money for things they don't mind using Visa and PayPal for. At the June meeting I drew a graph which makes the point clearly. A pity I can't draw it here. (Yeah, there are ways. My new Web page should have some drawings soon. But this list is about ASCII.) Plot Value of Being Untraceable in a Transaction on the X-axis. This is the perceived _value_ of being untraceable or private. Start with little or nothing, proceed to about a dollar then to hundreds of dollars then to thousands then to tens of thousands and more. (The value of being untraceable is also the cost of getting caught: getting caught plotting the overthrow of the Crown Prince of Abu Fukyou, being outed by a corporation in a lawsuit, being audited by the IRS and them finding evaded taxes, having the cops find a cache of snuff films on your hard disk, and so on.) Some examples: People will demonstrably get on planes and fly to the Cayman Islands to open bank accounts offering them untraceability (of a certain kind). It is demonstrably worth it to them to pay thousands, even tens of thousands, of dollars to set up shell accounts, dummy corporations, Swiss bank accounts, etc. For whatever various and sundry reasons. (They may be Panamanian dictators, they may be Get Rich Quick scamsters, they may be spies within the FBI or CIA.) They expect a value of untraceability to be high, in the tens or hundreds of thousands...or even much higher. Even their lives. Call this the Over $100K regime. I cite this because it disputes directly the popular slogans: People won't pay anything for privacy or untraceability. (In fact, people pay quite large sums for privacy and untraceability. Ask Hollywood or corporate bigshots what they pay not to be traced.) People will also pay money not to be traceable in gambling situations. They gamble with bookies, they fly to offshore gambling havens, and so on. The _value_ to them is high, but not at the level above. If they're caught, they face tax evasion charges, maybe. Call this the $1K-10K regime. (The spread is wide, from low-rent bookie bets which even the IRS probably doesn't care much about to schemes to avoid large amounts of tax.) At lesser levels, some choose to pay cash for their video tape rentals (with deposits arranged) just to avoid leaving a paper trail. (Bet Justice Thomas wishes he had.) And then at very low levels there are the cases where the benefits of untraceability are worth little or nothing to most people. I call this the millicent ghetto. Actually, the ghetto begins down at around a dollar or less. Sadly, a huge number of the proposed untraceable digital cash systems are targetted at uses deep down in this ghetto. (Perhaps because they have no hint of illegality?) On the Y-axis. Plot here the _costs_ of achieving untraceability for these levels of achieved. This is the cost of tools, of using the tools, of delays caused by the tools, etc. For example, flying to the Cayman Islands to personally open a bank account may cost a couple of days in time, the airfare, and (more nebulously) the possible cost of having one's photograph taken for future use upon boarding that plan for Switzerland or the Caymans. Lesser costs, but still costs, would be the costs of using Freedom (much frustration, say most of my
[e-gold-list] Re: someone bailed out a few bars?
At 01:40 PM +1000 08/21/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html the count is DOWN to 143. ... Argh! Someone made a reference to the real world, instead of word- definitions!! I'm shocked!! Anyway, those bars were redeemed -- one bails the water out of a sinking _rowboat_! :^) Of course bars can be bailed and redeemed, those who claim they can't, frankly probably never could -- to quote my mom when she was being maddening. (Can't never could still rings in my head!). I am SURE that people with (about) 400oz can redeem if they want, that's in the user agreement. It probably involves all sorts of silly fees from the storage facility, etc. but I'm sure it can be done. Now you know that the new version of Examiner (which STILL kicks-ASS on all the other currencies IN ITS PRESENT, OLD FORM!) will have the bars' fine weights, Doug said so! In fact, since e-gold list reading- comprehension seems spotty-at-best these days, I'll quote: ... While e-gold is presently using the gross weight for accounting, Dr. Douglass Jackson of e-gold agrees with using fine weight as the standard: The fine content of a good delivery bar varies from about 348 to about 429.5 oz Troy. The bars the Trust holds almost all fall in a fine content range of 390 to 410 oz. Troy. Examiner currently shows nominal weight. Back when the inventory tables were designed the physical assets were coins and kilos of standardized sizes. Next generation Examiner will display assets by fine weight. We tend to carry about 2% over-reserve on a fine basis. Once we switch to fine weight we'll be able to issue up to the full fine weight. (It is important to note that even though e-gold is presently using gross weight as the unit of account, there is still 1 gram of fine gold to back every gram of e-gold issued due to the fact that e-gold carries 2% more gold in reserve than the amount issued in the examiner.) By using the fine weight of gold as the unit of measurement, the variation in purity of the bars becomes irrelevant, because only the real gold weight is counted. If all the digital gold currency companies used this standard, then 1 AUG would equal one gram of fine gold no matter which digital currency one prefers to use regardless of the purity of the bullion bars. ... I fail to see what's confusing about this, basically 'there's 2% extra gold, but the new e-gold examiner will display assets by fine weight.' The only news about this is the good news that Examiner might/will improve sometime in the future. I've seen a list of the bars' weights (gross and fine) and believe me, it's NOT interesting reading... ++ At 11:55 PM -0400 08/20/2001, Craig Spencer wrote: ... The important thing to keep in mind is that the *only* reason you can get *any* coins is because it is possible to redeem (even if this right is almost never exercised). This is *not* a mere semantic distinction. But the thing is, nobody with half-a-clue ever said that you *can't* redeem. Snowdog finally dug up the user agreement, JP finally noticed someone actually doing what (supposedly) couldn't be done (Viking's Jeff's charts probably also reflect it) and Claude, well... At 11:57 PM -0400 08/20/2001, C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc. wrote: allocated pool of unencumbered gold. I must say that I feel must safer to own 1000 GoldGrams or grams of e-gold than to have a Hallmark Kilobar of gold under my mattress. -:) Claude said something TRULY sensible. It's widely known that I own and shoot firearms, but I feel the same way! Too much physical gold around is a security-problem best left to others. I *love* having some of the stuff, don't get me wrong, but by far most of my value is in e-metal. JMR --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] GoldMoney Press Release - Deloitte Touche Completes Governance Review
Deloitte Touche Completes Governance Review Governance Representations by GoldMoney Authenticated; System Reliability Tested 21 August 2001 - GoldMoney has today announced that a review of its governance procedures and system reliability has been completed by Deloitte Touche. This extensive review has been underway since April, and was completed with the assistance of Dimension Data, the company that designed and built GoldMoney's systems and software. Twelve areas were examined, including governance procedures, system security, confidentiality of client information, and other vital areas such as system reliability. The full scope of the review and its conclusions can be accessed through the www.GoldMoney.com website. We've passed this extensive, wide-ranging review with flying colours, said James Turk, Managing Director of GoldMoney. He stated that the purpose of this review is to provide users with assurances of integrity both about GoldMoney system reliability as well as the representations GoldMoney makes to all of its users, particularly those relating to governance. Our established governance procedures we believe set the highest possible standard. And our users now have independent confirmation that our representations are accurate. These include, most importantly, that there is a one-to-one relationship of GoldGrams in users' Holdings with grams of gold in the VIA MAT vault. While other firms state that they are also a one-to-one system, to our knowledge none of them have ever had their representations verified by an independent, respected third party, James Turk added. As part of this review, GoldMoney announced that users had 25,078.391 grams of gold in the VIA MAT vault as of 3 April 2001, the date of the Deloitte Touche review, and that as of that date, 25,078.391gg were circulating as currency in users' Holdings. This total, which establishes the one-to-one relationship necessary to prove that GoldMoney is a one-to-one system, will continue to be announced in future reviews. GoldMoney has engaged Deloitte Touche to complete a review on a regular basis at six-month intervals. The objective is to provide users with ongoing assurances that system reliability has not been diminished and further, that GoldMoney continues to meet the high governance standards it has established. This report and the assurances of integrity it provides to users highlight GoldMoney's commitment to continue improving its services. The aim is to make GoldMoney even more useful in global ecommerce, and to set the global standard for instantaneous, 24/7 non-repudiable payments. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * GoldMoney is the inventor of digital gold currency, a groundbreaking achievement that is advancing global ecommerce. GoldMoney is an online payment system that combines the world's oldest money, gold, with Internet technology to provide a safe, easy and inexpensive way for anyone to transact business 24 hours a day. Payments are made electronically using GoldGrams, which are grams of gold that circulate world-wide through the Internet. By combining gold and Internet technology to produce A Solid Currency for Global Commerce, GoldMoney brings a new proficiency to the way payments are made, offering users peace of mind, ease of use and control of costs. For more information contact: James Turk Managing Director, GoldMoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Fine weight versus nominal weight
How much gold is in a gram of digital gold? And more importantly, do the differences in the fineness of the various digital currencies affect the use of the AUG (one gram of gold) as a standard unit of digital currency? See what James Turk, Douglass Jackson, and Mike Singleton have to say in the newest article at www.goldeconomy.com . --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: Fine weight versus nominal weight
How much gold is in a gram of digital gold? And more importantly, do the differences in the fineness of the various digital currencies affect the use of the AUG (one gram of gold) as a standard unit of digital currency? See what James Turk, Douglass Jackson, and Mike Singleton have to say in the newest article at www.goldeconomy.com . Another absolutely fabulous article, Ken! Boy, will it cause some discussion. Some thoughts: (i) Ken, you say that E-gold ... use London Good Delivery Bars. Is that now OFFICIAL E-GOLD POLICY? ie, are all 146 bars LGD bars? Or is this just what you observe, Ken, or is it a casual (but not official) comment from someone at e-gold, or does it now appear somewhere on the e-gold site, or what? I'm dying to know! (ii) It seems like a knock-down obviosity that e-gold, GoldMoney and any other DGCs would work with *fine* weight of gold. No one in the history of the universe has ever done otherwise when dealing with gold! If you buy a one ounce Kruggerand, it physically weighs 1.05263 ounces (Kruggerands are made of 95% gold alloy) but no-one has ever, ever, said oh, that Kruggerand is 1.05263 ounces, today's price is 1.05263 x $300. That would be bizarre! (iii) For instance consider this very confusing comment from Doug (are you reading, Doug?!): Back when the inventory tables were designed the physical assets were coins and kilos of standardized sizes but the ... NEXT generation Examiner will display assets by fine weight. But Doug: coins expressed as one ounce coins are in fact*** one ounce of fine weight. They do not physically weigh one ounce, they weigh whatever (Kruggerands .. 1.05263 ounces, Maples, a cunhair over 1.00 ounces, etc), they all contain one *fine* ounce of gold. The same is true of kilo bars. They are mean to contain one *fine* kilo .. at , the actual physical weight is 10,000/9,999 kilos. Thus, if the current examiner (as opposed to the NEXT generation one) works in coin-weights (example, 10,000 Kruggerands .. 10,000 *fine* ounces), IT ALREADY WORKS IN FINE WEIGHT. Which is completely normal and what you would expect. When you buy a LGD bar, no one is going to tell you the physical weight, and you're not going to pay based on that weight, that would be nonsensical. Somewhere at e-gold there's a list of weights of all their LGD bars all being the fine weights. (iv) Mr. Mike Singleton's comments are perhaps more confusing! I completely agree that it's clever of e-bullion to use Kilobars, becuase, they are more liquid -- that's fantastic idea. However his negative comments about LGD bars make little sense, as, all the same facts apply to kilobars. Consider this comment: It just seems pretty ridiculous to me [to use fine weight as the unit of account] since the ONLY time purity counts for anything is when you take possession - how do you take possession of a Gold Gram? If you take delivery on a bar from GM -- do they reverse calculate the amount of GG's on account -- with whichever Bar you happen to take possession of (so I can give them less then 12,500 GG's for a Bar)? But that is in fact *exactly what happens** every time, ever, that any LGD bar -- or any gold bar! -- has ever been sold! If you want to take delivery of a bar from GoldMoney, or egold, they would naturally tell you a list of the various bar weights they have on hand (obviously, that's fine weight), and you would pick one, and pay (so to speak) that many GoldGrams equal to the fine weight of the bar. (There can be no other situation .. how else could it work?) The only difference with Kilobars vs large bars is that kilobars are all titularly the same weight. Of course, that's wrong too. Say you're buying a small pile of 100 kilobars. It's inconceivable any bullion dealer would go oh, so that's 100.0 kilos then, here's a check. No, you put them on a scale and see what the total weight is. Then you multiply by the fineness, and get a resulting number of fine grams or ounces, and pay based on that fine weight. (Here's an interesting anecdote ... the only one time I ever sold a Kilobar (it was to Dillon-Gage), as it happened, it didn't weigh anything like a kilo! It was out by about 4 1/4 grams (I can't recall if it was up or down).) Just some thoughts! JP --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Patents are the reason it matters
Actually, JP, this seems like a small point of semantics to you. The reason it is very significant is that the GoldMoney patents are dependent upon the idea that they eliminate payment risk by making the holder the actual owner of the gold in the vault. If my thesis were to be proved right in court then the GoldMoney patents would be invalidated on the basis that the invention cannot do what it claims to do in the patent. If my thesis is wrong, then the GoldMoney patents would only apply to a currency with teh same governance setup as GoldMoney. Since e-gold and e-bullion have their gold owned by a trust, they are by definition deposit currencies. The GoldMoney patent claims that it is NOT a deposit currency, but rather a new invention, called a Digital Gold Currency that is different from and superior to deposit currencies. Therefore digital gold deposit currencies do not fall under the definition of the invention patented by GoldMoney. Either way, e-gold, e-bullion, Standard Reserve, and Pecunix are off the hook with regard to patent infringement due to this fact. As I have said, I could be wrong. (And I have no plans to test my thesis.) Ken --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: And another one down
--On 18 August 2001 08:05 -0700 Jeff Fitzmyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe DBC keeps failing because it's not convenient enough and the expenditure of time and concentration are higher than just paying the 5% credit card fees. I think Beenz and Flooze (Digital Based Currencies) failed because they are not a direct money for goods or money for service. I think the net inherently supports systems that are deflationary and peer to peer. So middle men are squeezed out by definition. the main problems with them from my POV was that they weren't real currencies. Flooz was an online gift certificate scheme, and Beenz was a shopping incentive scheme. Didn't matter how many times Beenz said they were a web currency for the sake of the business plan and the marketing, they were still just incentive points. and the fact that they weren't backed by anything is going to cause a lot of pain for people still holding them. Also, Beenz never did answer my questions on how they set the value of 1 Beenz, and when/how it might change. 1 cent when a merchant bought them from Beenz to distribute to their customers. 0.5 cent when the merchant sold them back to Beenz after collecting them from customers. nice spread! Rachel --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
I think 'DGC' is a better acronym! Not really. That acronym makes no distinction between the true gold currencies and OSGold. there's nothing backed about e-gold. uh... What word would you suggest that means that all the database entries in our accounts is equivalent to hard metal in secured, unallocated storage, and a sufficiently large database entrie can be redeemed for a hard metal brick or sponge? What, exactly, is your problem with the word 'backed'? the day e-gold is backed by gold is the day we all stop using e-gold. The day e-gold isn't backed by gold is the day most people will stop using e-gold. (Most because there are people that use OSGold) e-gold is no more backed by gold than the local self-storage lock-up sheds that I use are backed by my excess furniture and boxes of books! huh? The local self-storage lock-up sheds are still valid lock-up sheds without any excess furniture, or any other misc. detritus. e-gold isn't a valid 'digital gold currency' without the physical hard gold bricks. Does your local self-storage place give you 'detritus bucks' equivalent to the value of the stuff in your lock-up shed? e-gold does give you value-denominated assets (database entries) for storing gold with them. e-gold is backed by gold. What is the invalid meaning in that statement? Words have meanings (unless you're a socialist). Words still have meanings then. The ruling party just tries to change what the accepted meaning is or simply remove it from the vocabulary if it displeases them. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
e-gold isn't and has never been backed by gold. It can't be. It's a payment system. What's so hard to understand about this. So what if people are calling e-gold a GBC. The terminology doesn't decide what reality is. It's the payment system that allows gold itself to circulate electronically. Gold is not backed by gold. Gold can't be backed by gold. Shouldn't we take this one step further and realize that what is circulating is not actually the gold which stays in one place at least as far as account to account transfers but rather the currency in this case is the digital exchange of ones and zeroes generated buy computers. Hence we have our exchange of digital currency with a backing of gold excepting instances of actual bailment of physical metal. It seems a bit nit-picky to me but I have also noticed how this concept can escalate in certain cases. I don't think it's just a matter of semantics. Joe www.loavesandfishessoupkitchen.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
Shouldn't we take this one step further and realize that what is circulating is not actually the gold which stays in one place at least as far as account to account transfers but rather the currency in this case is the digital exchange of ones and zeroes generated buy computers. Hence we have our exchange of digital currency with a backing excepting instances of actual bailment of physical metal. e-gold isnt a 'digital currency' in that sense .. ie, it's not like digigold or other Systemics fine products! actually the gold which stays in one place ... e-gold is not that big a deal. For 50-70 years, 400 oz gold bars have been kept in storage by companies like Viamat in vaults in switzerland, London, etc. If I sell a 400 oz bar to you, which Viamat is storing for me, I call up Viamat or sign something to the effect that the ownership of the bar has changed from me to you ... if you decide to keep the bar in storage with Viamat, you then would then pay the $100 a year storage fee instead of me from then on. (It is utterly, totally, ceompletely inconceivable that anyone would use the word backed in this process .. nobody in the universe has ever said viamat bars are backed by gold!! thats what the word backed means!! and it is not really gold that is in circulation but the backing of fractional phone calls between parties owning viamat bars etc etc .. it's all incoherent. Viamat's just a company that stores gold for you, charging $100 a year to do so.) The web interface has very little conceptual important to e-gold. (It's PRACTIALLY of spectacular importance, but CONCEPTUALLY of no importance.) Let's say e-gold only had three or four large customers ... you, me, Viking and Bob ... picture all of us holding about 100 kilos of gold each. Imagine there is NO web interface or web site for e-gold. e-gold simply works by us telephoning Jim and telling him Jim, could you please spend 10.30 kilos from my account to Bob's account -- thanks man! Whats my new balance now, 28.56 kilos, thansk again Jim -- egold rocks! See you That's all egold is and all egold will ever be. It's that simple. In that thought experiment, in what sense would you say egold is backed by gold or has a reserve of gold or whatever -- it just doesnt mean anything. Rather, you'd say the total amount of gold egold stores for its four customers is 413.76 kilos. Just as it would be nonsensical to say Viamat is now backed by over 100 tonnes of gold, Viamat's reserve is now 100 tonnes! What the hell does that mean? You'd just say Viamat now stores 100 tonnes of gold or there is now 100 tonnes of gold in the viamat system or 100 other approriate coherent English sentences. This is just so simple its odd there's any talk or debate about it. You need look no further than Moccato Delivery Orders -- it would be absurd to say MODs are backed by gold bars (what would that mean?) and no one has ever used that language. You say this MDO is the one for bar #2367236 or Hey, where that MDO for bar #9497398 I misplaced?! You might as well talk about the docket you get from the time stamp machine in a car park being backed by your BMW ... its nonsensical. It's just a docket, as an MDO is an MDO. Enough of this! --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
Actually, JP, I have to disagree with you on this one. Here is the difference between Viamat or any other custodial storage vault, and e-gold and other digital deposit currencies: CUSTODIAL STORAGE Viamat is a custodian. Each piece of gold in the Viamat vault has a serial number, unique weight, and fineness, and owner's name recorded in their books. Each piece of gold has an identifiable owner, and each owner can identify his bar(s) of gold. This is like valet parking. If you deposit your car with them, you expect them to give the same exact car back, not just one of the same make and model. DEPOSIT CURRENCY A deposit system works differently, and is common for any mass storage of commodities where each unit is essentially identical. With a deposit currency, you deposit value into the system in the form of money, or wheat, or gold bars, or whatever is being stored. The storage bank gives you a receipt on an account, which is their liability to you. This means that the storage bank now owes you something. It also means they are the owner of the item you deposited. When you present your receipt for redemption, it will be fulfilled but not with the same items you originally deposited. Example: A wheat farmer deposits 1000 bushels of wheat with the local storage silo. The silo operator gives him a receipt and an account indicating that he has 1000 bushels of wheat. This actually means the silo operator owns the wheat, but he now owes the farmer 1000 bushels. A change of ownership has taken place - the wheat was traded for a liability (receipt). When the farmer comes back to take out his 1000 bushels, the silo will give him a different 1000 bushels. If the silo catches on fire and the wheat is destroyed, the silo operator STILL owes the farmer 1000 bushels. I contend that all digital gold currencies in operation today are essentially deposit currencies because none of them can tell which gram of gold belongs to which account. Therefore the accounts, or in the case of DigiGold, the digital certificates, are liabilities issued against the company. The gold is actually owned by the trust or the agent on behalf of the account holders. Digital gold is not quite the same as gold. It is still paper and it is therefore backed. This is easily illustrated by the fact that if one of the companies has a computer glitch and issues more gold than is in the vault, they will then have issued more paper than there is gold backing. They have not created new gold, therefore the digital currency itself is not gold, but a liability backed by gold. It is paper, just like a gold certificate. Therefore Gold Backed Currency is just as valid as Digital Gold Currency. (GoldMoney, Inc, denies this however. They claim that the Gold Gram Holder is the ACTUAL owner of the gold in the vault, and they do the accounting for ViaMat. However, I do not think that they have a system that allows them to identify which particular piece of gold is owned by a particular Gold Gram Holder. Therefore, I think they are a deposit currency, with better governance perhaps, but still a deposit currency. They strongly disagree, of course.) Kind regards, Ken Griffith www.goldeconomy.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Re: GBC
www.loavesandfishessoupkitchen.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:53 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: GBC In that thought experiment, in what sense would you say egold is backed by gold or has a reserve of gold or whatever -- it just doesnt mean anything. Enough of this! OK! I agree, I wouldn't and I think the whole idea of having to back a currency is absurd in the first place. I am, however, getting the distinct impression that e-gold is somehow being thought of as a digital currency or DBC or GBC regardless of how incorrect it is. Unfortunately, how we think of things can blindly takes precedence after the fact. I'm not questioning the obvious; I'm just trying to wring it out a little. Joe www.loavesandfishessoupkitchen.com We accept e-gold. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Why Beenz to shut down?
Beenz to shut down http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-6893917.html?tag=lh Experts believe that online currency sites such as Beenz were overtaken as a way of shopping online by credit cards, which had the advantage of being virtually universally accepted both on and offline. In contrast, digital currency appealed to Internet merchants because they avoided the hefty charges involved with credit cards. Anybody who believes that, isn't my idea of an expert... The shutdown of flooz, beenz etc. disprove only one thing: that it's possible to come in with huge, big-capital operation with hundreds of 9-to-5 employees and capture a rent collecting model sufficient to pay for the initial investment. Whenever digital cash provides a lock- in for the issuer or mint, in perpetuity, then the public will reject it. People aren't so dumb these days. The Borg, and IBM before them, showed how cynically and remorselessly the software community will exploit any opportunity to extract rents. As Lawrence Lessig says, the code rules. When the surly and unpaid community of open source developers finally builds a DBC system that is convenient, secure, private, and safe, small business and individuals will surely use it. Why wouldn't they? Todd Boyle CPA www.gldialtone.com www.arapxml.net and other mediocre and unfinished works... --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] Need E-Silver
Hello, I am looking to aquire $100 e-silver for any of the following currencies: SR-USD OSGold E-gold E-Bullion (Gold) I need @ $100 in e-silver and will trade any of the above metals or currencies (or any combo you choose) fo it. Please e-mail me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if interested. Thanks, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - - - - - - - - - - advertisement - - - - - - - - - - Buy anything from Amazon.com NOW using e-gold: http://www.bananagold.com/use.cgi?g Bananagold--the biggest e-gold commerce site. - - - - - - - - - - advertisement - - - - - - - - - - --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that e-gold Ltd. stores more gold on behalf of customers than many countries? See http://www.gold.org/Gra/Gra1.htm and the e-gold Examiner at http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html for details.
[e-gold-list] ADV: Standard Global Currency Conference
Hi: If you are ready for a new career, in the exciting new field of digital currency, then join us at a workshop/conference in Tortola, BVI on August 27-28. This conference will be unusual... a step-by-step management-oriented course. It will cover basic requirements and provide real, authoritative guidelines by experts. There will be a hands-on session where you will be able to see for yourself, some of the alternatives that are available for you. This workshop/conference is interactive, where you and your peers will learn how subsidiary agents operate and make money; the mutual fund and why we will give you $1 million for a trading balance float; the global market and the opportunity; how to go after the big deals (like our recent 10,000 member; 160,000 member and 500,000 member deals); tools and products available to help you succeed; Standard Transactions Agents Xchange (STAX) program; a Guide to Digital Currencies; paying worldwide; and more. And you will be able to apply those concepts to your business as you join our successful family of agents worldwide. The workshop/conference was created for business executives who may have a desire to switch careers, and/or to expand on their existing business. Attendance at the workshop is limited to reservations. Therefore, I suggest that you contact me today to confirm your attendance. There is a fee, which will be applied to the subsidiary agent's fee when you sign up at the conference. Send an e-messages to... mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=Sub_confernce Or visit... http://www.standardtransactions.com/sub_conference.htm George __ George Matyjewicz, President/General Manager Standard Transactions (BVI) Limited http://www.standardtransactions.com http://www.standardreserve.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that the new e-gold Secure Random Keypad can help you to protect your passphrase from both keystroke mouse- click sniffing trojan viruses? You can find out more about computer security at: http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/home_networks.html
[e-gold-list] RE: E-GOLD is going up...
On 2 Aug 2001, at 0:41, Ian Green wrote: Personally, I have determined to ignore all other gold currencies as I want to support the original and the best (safe, reliable, trustworthy), e-gold. I agree with you that e-gold is the original operating digital gold currency. It is certainly safe, reliable and trustworthy. But is it necessarily the best. I like it a lot and have been using it for years. But I suggest to you that GoldMoney has a little more than e-gold to offer. After all, James Turk of GM is the one who invented DGCs. Mr Turk has the patents, and GoldGrams are also safe, reliable and trustworthy. I think that both can succeed even if, obviously, e- gold has the lion's share of the market. Although the others are competing against e-gold, I believe it is vitally important for the success of Internet commerce through 100 percent gold-backed currency for e-gold to continue to be the leader and to have the greatest acceptance worldwide. I disagree... I see nothing wrong with GoldMoney taking the lead or sharing it with e-gold. This is not to say that all DGCs will succeed. IMO, only a few will. On the other hand, Standard Reserve frequently quotes very high numbers of people being added to their system, but it may not always be the gold-based side of their system being quoted, and my impression of their fees is that it is expensive. I suspect that their SR-AUG currency will work simply because of the ability to transfer to SR-USD and withdraw the money at an ATM. Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you know that the new e-gold Secure Random Keypad can help you to protect your passphrase from both keystroke mouse- click sniffing trojan viruses? You can find out more about computer security at: http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/home_networks.html
[e-gold-list] open exchange protocol group
Several of us are going to start an open exchange protocol group for the purpose of defining a digital currency standard that will allow all the companies to use it to be compatible with each other. Anyone interested in participating should contact me for details. Ken Griffith --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] the feds
I can attest to the accuracy of Craig's complaints and predictions about the US government. The man who wrote the article E-Money: Paradise or Prison (http://www.goldbankone.com/article.php?sid=77) is a friend of mine, Franklin Sanders. Mr. Sanders has been a gold bullion dealer since the mid seventies. Back in the early eighties he innocently started a gold bank in which people could open accounts denominated in grams of gold. It was basically a paper and ink version of e-gold, 100% backed, with a 1% agio fee. Little did Mr. Sanders know, this was a big no-no. Even though there were no US Laws prohibiting this kind of business (since Nixon relegalized private ownership of gold in 73), within six months he was subjected to investigation and attack by the Tennessee Department of Revenue, the Internal Revenue Service, and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF). The BATF raided his family farm in the wee hours of the morning in full SWAT gear, a technique that has become a hallmark of federal agencies in the past decade. Mr. Sanders is convinced that they did so in the hopes that he would, not realizing it was a police raid, attempt to defend his family from the masked invaders in the night, resulting in his death. Thankfully, he did not resist, and he and his family escaped with their lives, if not their dignity. (His ten year old daughter was subjected to a strip search at gunpoint - another signature move by perverted BATF agents.) Not content to have destroyed his business, the IRS publically named Mr. Sanders as, the most dangerous man in the mid-South. The IRS persecuted him with a federal jury trial, which he amazingly won. Not willing to lose so easily, the IRS then transferred several personnel to the Tennessee Department of Revenue which prosecuted him for failing to pay state sales tax on the sale of gold bullion. Mr. Sanders argued that the gold bullion he was selling was US Gold Eagle coinage from the US Mint which was official legal tender, and therefore not subject to sales tax. (Money changers are not required to pay sales tax in any state of the US.) The court convicted him anyway and sentenced him to a year in jail, reduced to sixty days, which he served in 1999. When I discussed with Mr. Sanders the idea of starting an electronic gold digital currency back in 1997, his response to me was, Ken, if you do that, the US government will stop you at any cost. They will try to kill you. This man speaks from personal experience. He isn't a conspiracy theorist. Just an honest country-boy who thought the law giving US citizens the right to own gold meant what it said. Did he ever get an education. I know other honest people who have had similar experiences with federal agencies. In the name of an investigation they will lie to potential witnesses in order instill fear in them and smear the reputation of the person they are after. They will plant evidence, make up evidence, and destroy evidence in order to get the conviction they want. With few exceptions, they have no qualms about lying on the witness stand and taking advantage of the jury's trust in government officials. The IRS has become an agency that plunders its victims, with the actual agents often pocketing personal items such as jewelry, never to be seen again, as they accidentally don't record it on the list of items removed in the raid. IRS agents are as corrupt as third-world bureaucrats. The point of this is that rule-of-law no longer exists in the United States. If it did, then the IRS would have to list the law in the federal register requiring US citizens to file tax returns. It operates without the basis of law just fine, because the courts will demonize and destroy any fool who attempts to defend himself by pointing out that there is no such law. If you cross the path of the feds in this country, it is truly a crapshoot as to whether you will get a fair trial or not. At least, it is still possible to win sometimes, but the fact is that the cops and the courts are increasingly corrupt. The simple solution to the US control problem is for the personnel of the affected companies simply to move out of the US themselves. I am sure they will do this when it becomes an issue in the future. Regards, Ken Griffith --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] price of digital currencies
It seems to me that e-gold shouldn't need to set their price at all. That is, if a digital asset currency allows the market makers to do all the exchanging between that currency and fiat currencies, then the price of e-gold, GoldMoney or whatever, is determined by the average of all the daily trades by the exchange agents. I wrote an article in The Gold Economy last winter predicting that since e-gold and others make gold bullion more useful than a 400 oz brick in your hand, that we should see the price of e-gold and others rise several percentage points above the price of gold bullion on the commodities markets. This seems to have happened, because while market makers will sell you e-gold for a 3-10% commission ABOVE the commodity price of gold, most of them will buy your e-gold at spot price or in some cases higher. If the commission was merely a price for their service, you would expect the 7-10% charge BOTH ways. One obvious reason for this is that the market maker has virtually zero risk on converting e-gold to cash, but has high risk converting cash to e-gold. The fact that many market makers are now offering to pay YOU above spot to buy your e-gold suggests that my prediction is coming true. The price of e-gold is now higher than the price of gold, and it isn't just exchange fees. It holds its value at that price. Any comments? Ken Griffith --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: price of digital currencies / is actually quite *LOW* compared to other commodities
On 21 Jul 2001, at 9:36, Ken Griffith wrote:
Hello Ken,
I agree that gold currencies add value over pure bullion. And it
would be logic that their exchange rates be higher than spot gold
price. But not several percent higher... in a world where gold
currencies would have a market as large as national currencies, we
would be talking in terms of a few tenths of a percent.
However, I think that the current high spreads are only due a few
temporary factors,
Indeed -- quite simply Omnipay is (quite resonably, there's only 100
bars in there) the only one of two wholesalers to exchange providers.
I provide a pirate alternative wholesale source for MMs with rates
a bit better than Omnipay (often say 1.25%) .. but me and Omnipay are
the only two wholesalers to MMs. And I obvoiously only do a small
fraction (1/10th?) of what Omni does.
Later on, if one can bail bars into e-gold, I (say) could bail in a
bar and wholesale it at say 0.3% ... 0.5% (making $300 or $400 ..
gosh)
So, someone will get into that business and turn over a couple of
bars a week, which will make it a little man-in-the-middle cottage
industry. Or obviouly MMs could do that themselves if they are big
enough.
{Aside ... this won't happen until the MM industry and overall ERE
scene is much more organized and has higher flow, and much much
higher *liquidity*. [Liquidity is cottage-industry low in the whole
GBC universe!] You can't wholesale anything at a FRACTION OF A
PERCENT [for goodness sake] unless extremely high levels of trust,
commercial credit, insurance, risk control, etc is in place between
parties. IN fact, Coconutgold is building such systems/relationships
with leading MMs.}
{And before you say Omnipay are monoplostic bastards, consider,
there are 140 odd bars in there. If Omnipay make a grand on
wholesaling each one (monopolistically!) that is the exciting sum of
$140,000, which is not worth getting out of bed for. that's about
enough to pay for the lease of 2 desks and a trash basket and maybe a
power strip for one year in a corporate environment.}
Also PAUL -- you comment that fiat currencies have very low spreads
of far less than a percent, why not e-gold too?
Consider, e-gold is NOT a fiat currency, it's a commodity, gold.
Indeed, I'm very surprised that e-gold spreads are (already) so low!
Quite simply, you can't buy gold bullion, or copper, or corn flakes,
with anything like spreads of only a few percent you're right
that the sprads between fiat currencies are exceptionally low. I
don't see why getting rid of paper money, for gold, would ever be
THAT cheap .. something to consider.
including:
1) The nature of the clientele: 90%+ of the users are after high yield
programs promising hundred of % on ROI per year. Most don't care
too much about the exchange rates and accept the exorbitant 7-
10% fee.. Personally, I think that anything above 5% does not
make sense, except for credit cards payments. But Hey! I am not
blaming the MMs.. after all the clients decide!
2) The Acquisition cost of GBCs. I don't think that it is that easy to
acquire them at spot in high volume (except for GoldMoney and e-
bullion). The standard is the 2% Omnipay charges to its Exchange
providers.
[Actually, I hear Omnipay now (quite resasonably) charge a bit more
than that depending on how much volume you do.]
If/when competitive GBC's gain a market share equal to
e-gold, then you will see e-gold accepting bailing of gold bars and
rates drop by at least 2%.
3) The size of this market. When this market reach critical mass,
we will have exchange rates below 2-3% and compete with national
currencies.
Claude
http://www.goldcurrencies.ca
http://www.ormetal.com
Every word of Claude's .. worth quoting! ;)
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[e-gold-list] Re: e-Bullion Article
Ken, Great article! Your site has a refreshingly clean and crisp look to it as well. Nice job on the overhaul! Just for your info (and possibly to correct the information in your article) Gaithmans now proudly offers e-Bullion products (Gold Silver) at www.gaithmans.com Of special notice: clients can now trade in their e-metals, SR currency, and OSGold for e-Bullion (Gold or Silver) via Gaithmans. (A mere 1% transaction fee applies for the conversion from one digital currency to another.) GFCB is no longer the only place to fund an e-Bullion account. And I can tell you from experience demand is growing for e-Bullion currency! You did a nice job on detailing the pro's con's of each of the gold backed currencies. I learned a few things of significance. Congrats for the nicely written article! Respectfully, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - Original Message - From: Ken Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] e-Bullion Article I have written an in-depth article introducing e-Bullion. You can read it on the beta-site for the new version of The Gold Economy. While you're there, poke around the site a bit and let me know what you think. URL: http://www.goldbankone.com/article.php?sid=123mode=nestedorder=0 Ken Griffith Editor, The Gold Economy --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-Bullion Article
I have written an in-depth article introducing e-Bullion. You can read it on the beta-site for the new version of The Gold Economy. While you're there, poke around the site a bit and let me know what you think. URL: http://www.goldbankone.com/article.php?sid=123mode=nestedorder=0 this makes for very interesting reading well presented and informative. there are a couple of points which I think are important: When asked who the shareholders and directors of the company were, the company spokesman said that e-Bullion is privately held and intends to keep that information confidential. Pecunix Venture Holdings Incorporated it appears will not be so reticent bearing in mind that there is an invitation on the table for prospectus issued shares available. Now that there are five gold digital currencies undergirding the gold economy, we are starting to see the kind of diversity that is necessary to support a true commercial infrastructure for gold currency. While we would like to see a more international offering (all of the existing companies have strong ties to the United States) progress is definitely being made at Internet speed! The next major problem to be solved is to bring all of these currencies together with a common transaction protocol, so merchants won't have to use five different shopping cart programs. As you have pointed out the main weakness is that some or all of the key players in each company listed reside or have close connections in the US. Pecunix Incorporated does not have that disadvantage. The company is registered in Panama and NONE of the major players are in the US. In fact they are in New Zealand if you read the prospectus. And NZ does not have a history of kotowing to the US government. This will only increase the security aspect from the user point of view when it comes to US governmental agencies. Looks to me like Pecunix is going to be the only 'private' gold supplier available. Sniper _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] (Soft) Grand Opening!
Hello, For those parties interested, Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. has launched a new website which strives to make the ordering process for gold backed currencies as simple, safe, and secure as possible! Please visit us now at: www.gaithmans.com You will no longer need to send follow up e-mails. Also, we will be dropping our @hotmail.com e-mail addresses for the more secure @gaithmans.com e-mails. Our new site lists all new addresses on our Contact Us page. Thank you to all of our clients and colleagues who have patiently waited for this website to be completed. We offer e-metals, OSGold, SR currency, and we now proudly introduced e-Bullion metals. We buy, sell, and trade all digital currencies making Gaithmans your digital currency destination! Please watch for a major upcoming sale on ALL payment methods and currencies. Details to be released the website by weeks end. Here is to success of the Gold Economy! Respectfully, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your ultimate e-currency exchange service provider! --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening!
On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 12:23:23PM -0400, Eric J. Gaither wrote: We offer e-metals, OSGold, SR currency, and we now proudly introduced e-Bullion metals. We buy, sell, and trade all digital currencies making Gaithmans your digital currency destination! Good work Eric! Don't mind if I am a little nitpicky... Here's an example of some false advertising :) Surely you don't deal in all digital currencies. You can't even claim to deal in all gold-backed digital currencies because there's also GoldMoney. I believe Gaithman's is a respectable merchant, maybe you should change the statement to say We buy, sell, and trade all these digital currencies... the addition of the word these being critical. BTW: It takes a very long time (10 sec) to render your pages on this 350MHz processor. -- Tril's E-Gold Directory: http://tril.tunes.org/e-gold/links.html Tril 0. Byte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tril.tunes.org/ This message is placed in the public domain. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] False advertising??
Tril, Please, by all means, be as critical as you choose! We encourage anyone/everyone to let us know if there is any room for improvement. (snip) Surely you don't deal in all digital currencies. You can't even claim to deal in all gold-backed digital currencies because there's also GoldMoney. (end snip) In regards to your comments (thank you, by the way!), yes, we DO deal in ALL digital gold backed currencies that we know to exist at this time. We do not currently have GoldMoney on hand, but we will get it for you if you order it. Truth is we have yet to have a single order for it. So, we do offer it, just indirectly and we do not actively promote it at the moment since the demand has been so scarce. That is not false advertising, Tril, its actually the truth. We deal in ALL digital gold backed currencies. If you want GoldMoney or 3PPay, place an order and I will have it for you inside of one hour. Allow me to clarify our offerings: e-metals (all four of them) SR currency (both SR-AUG SR-USD) OSGold E-Bullion (gold and silver) GoldMoney (we can get it quickly if you order it) 3PPay (same as GoldMoney, we have access to it if it is ordered) Did I miss any?? Gaithmans strives to be the one stop shop for ALL of your digital currency needs, Tril, if you want a currency we do not have listed, just ask, I will get it in stock. Our four biggest sellers happen to be what we carry in stock and promote at all times: e-metals, OSGold, SR, and e-Bullion. GoldMoney and 3PPay are only a few clicks away thanks to the many wonderful friends and colleagues I have working relationships with now. We will promote them and carry a reserve in stock when demand grows. So, Gaithmans really IS your digital currency destination regardless if you want to buy, sell, trade or barter. Thanks, Tril! With Great Respect, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - Original Message - From: Tril [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening! On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 12:23:23PM -0400, Eric J. Gaither wrote: We offer e-metals, OSGold, SR currency, and we now proudly introduced e-Bullion metals. We buy, sell, and trade all digital currencies making Gaithmans your digital currency destination! Good work Eric! Don't mind if I am a little nitpicky... Here's an example of some false advertising :) I believe Gaithman's is a respectable merchant, maybe you should change the statement to say We buy, sell, and trade all these digital currencies... the addition of the word these being critical. BTW: It takes a very long time (10 sec) to render your pages on this 350MHz processor. -- Tril's E-Gold Directory: http://tril.tunes.org/e-gold/links.html Tril 0. Byte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tril.tunes.org/ This message is placed in the public domain. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening!
On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:40:15PM -0400, Gaithman wrote: Tril, BTW: It takes a very long time (10 sec) to render your pages on this 350MHz processor. I happen to know a few merchants who sell hardware that is a little more in touch with today's internet surfing needs. AND they accept these digital currencies: e-metals, SR currency, OSGold Actually, I was not complaining about this machine; it is capable of rendering most web pages rapidly. Thanks for the offer though. As a technical person I believe your web page (www.gaithmans.com) uses too many nested tables (I count 7 levels deep!) which will cause it to render slowly on many web browsers, even on high-end systems. If you ask an experienced web designer they should be able to optimize your page to load faster (in fact, it could be done to look exactly the same, but using less nested tables). I'm just afraid you will lose customers, as 10seconds is the limit of most users' attention spans. -- Tril's E-Gold Directory: http://tril.tunes.org/e-gold/links.html Tril 0. Byte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tril.tunes.org/ This message is placed in the public domain. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening!
Tril, Please, by all means, be as critical as you choose! We encourage anyone/everyone to let us know if there is any room for improvement. (snip) Surely you don't deal in all digital currencies. You can't even claim to deal in all gold-backed digital currencies because there's also GoldMoney. (end snip) In regards to your comments (thank you, by the way!), yes, we DO deal in ALL digital gold backed currencies that we know to exist at this time. We do not currently have GoldMoney on hand, but we will get it for you if you order it. Truth is we have yet to have a single order for it. So, we do offer it, just indirectly and we do not actively promote it at the moment since the demand has been so scarce. That is not false advertising, Tril, its actually the truth. We deal in ALL digital gold backed currencies. If you want GoldMoney or 3PPay, place an order and I will have it for you inside of one hour. Allow me to clarify our offerings: e-metals (all four of them) SR currency (both SR-AUG SR-USD) OSGold E-Bullion (gold and silver) GoldMoney (we can get it quickly if you order it) 3PPay (same as GoldMoney, we have access to it if it is ordered) Did I miss any?? Gaithmans strives to be the one stop shop for ALL of your digital currency needs, Tril, if you want a currency we do not have listed, just ask, I will get it in stock. Our four biggest sellers happen to be what we carry in stock and promote at all times: e-metals, OSGold, SR, and e-Bullion. GoldMoney and 3PPay are only a few clicks away thanks to the many wonderful friends and colleagues I have working relationships with now. We will promote them and carry a reserve in stock when demand grows. So, Gaithmans really IS your digital currency destination regardless if you want to buy, sell, trade or barter. Thanks, Tril! With Great Respect, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - Original Message - From: Tril [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening! On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 12:23:23PM -0400, Eric J. Gaither wrote: We offer e-metals, OSGold, SR currency, and we now proudly introduced e-Bullion metals. We buy, sell, and trade all digital currencies making Gaithmans your digital currency destination! Good work Eric! Don't mind if I am a little nitpicky... Here's an example of some false advertising :) I believe Gaithman's is a respectable merchant, maybe you should change the statement to say We buy, sell, and trade all these digital currencies... the addition of the word these being critical. BTW: It takes a very long time (10 sec) to render your pages on this 350MHz processor. -- Tril's E-Gold Directory: http://tril.tunes.org/e-gold/links.html Tril 0. Byte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tril.tunes.org/ This message is placed in the public domain. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening!
Tril, BTW: It takes a very long time (10 sec) to render your pages on this 350MHz processor. I happen to know a few merchants who sell hardware that is a little more in touch with today's internet surfing needs. AND they accept these digital currencies: e-metals, SR currency, OSGold When you are ready to update, let me know and I will arrange for a discount for you. Gold backed currencies, complete exchange services, and a few good connections to boot. Gaithmans...get there and get yours! www.gaithmans.com Have a great night, Tril! Eric Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaithmans.com Gaithmans: your digital currency destination! - Original Message - From: Tril [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: (Soft) Grand Opening! On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 12:23:23PM -0400, Eric J. Gaither wrote: We offer e-metals, OSGold, SR currency, and we now proudly introduced e-Bullion metals. We buy, sell, and trade all digital currencies making Gaithmans your digital currency destination! Good work Eric! Don't mind if I am a little nitpicky... Here's an example of some false advertising :) Surely you don't deal in all digital currencies. You can't even claim to deal in all gold-backed digital currencies because there's also GoldMoney. I believe Gaithman's is a respectable merchant, maybe you should change the statement to say We buy, sell, and trade all these digital currencies... the addition of the word these being critical. -- Tril's E-Gold Directory: http://tril.tunes.org/e-gold/links.html Tril 0. Byte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tril.tunes.org/ This message is placed in the public domain. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Only thirty years ago ... the dollar was a joke; ...
Subject: ip: The Fallible Fed Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:12:14 -0400 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- begin forwarded text Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:40:44 -0500 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (by way of Jan [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Subject: ip: The Fallible Fed The Fallible Fed by William Anderson http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=725FS=The+Fallible+Fed Austrian economists, I believe, understand the Federal Reserve System like no other people because they despise it so much.  In fact, Austrians condemn central banking in general because they recognize that these institutions are set up primarily to fund profligate spending by politicians and to rescue banks from their own bankruptcy. Outside the Austrian School, however, central banks often seem to wear a halo.  Historians praise them, most mainstream economists support them, and politicians quickly discover that they cannot exist without them.  This does not mean that these folks actually understand central banking.  In fact, most economists, having been schooled in either Keynesianism or monetarism or both, have a general idea of what the Fed does, but they are so woefully ignorant in financial matters that their knowledge proves to be less than worthless. People trained in finance, unfortunately, are generally agnostic when it comes to knowing much about economics per se.  Thus, the modern world of economics and finance gives us the worst possible combination: economists who donâ*t understand financial instruments and financial experts who donâ*t comprehend economics.  Out of this witchâ*s brew come modern fiscal and monetary policies that emanate from Washington and nearly every other capital of the world. Martin Mayer, who has distinguished himself in earlier worksâ*and who was one of the few financial journalists who actually understood the roots of the 1975 New York City financial crisisâ*has attempted to shed some light on the Fedâ*and generally succeedsâ*in http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/068484740X/ludwigvonmisesinstThe Fed: The Inside Story of How the World's Most Powerful Financial Institution Drives the Markets (The Free Press, 2001). I agree with Gene Epstein of Barronâ*s, who believes that a reader will learn more from Murray Rothbardâ*s http://www.mises.org/mysteryofbanking/mysteryofbanking.pdfThe Mystery of Banking.  Rothbard was well-known for his everlasting hatred of the Fed (which, I may add, was well-deserved).  Mayer, on the other hand, while not worshipful of our august central bank, cannot quite bring himself to condemn this monstrosity, either.  Unlike so many others, who have written about the Fed in hushed, reverent tones, Mayer does admit that, for all of the hype that politicians and the press give the Federal Reserve System, a lot of them donâ*t know what theyâ*re doing.  If he were absolutely honest, he could include Alan Greenspan himself in that group of the blind who are leading the blind. For someone not trained in finance (like me), The Fed is quite helpful if one wishes to understand just what is going on in the markets and in banking today.  For all of the mysteries and complicated formulas surrounding modern finance, it is really quite simple: Securities must be backed by assets.  Once upon a time, the bedrock asset in the financial system was gold.  Today, it is debt, and, most ominously, it is government debt.  As I explained twenty years ago to an incredulous group of middle-school students who still believed that we were on a gold standard, the backing of money in this country is based upon the ability of the government to go into hock. Furthermore, the Fed was created to back up the system of fractional reserve banking, which Rothbard and other Austrians have correctly defined as being legal fraud.  State authorities prosecute and punish polygamy, but they tremble before the majesty of the bank, which simply commits a form of polygamy with the money of its depositors. If one is a Fed-watcher (which I admit to be from what I wish were a safe distance), then The Fed is important reading.  Mayer seems to mostly understand modern money and bankingâ*even though his analysis is hardly Austrian.  He also allows the reader to see just how the Fed, like an octopus, has been able to slowly but surely extend its arms over the entire financial system, much of the permission to expand given it by Congress in the aftermath of crises generally spawned by the Fed itself.  In addition to Mayerâ*s explanation of the Fed and its actions, his chapter on central banks is important reading for those who donâ*t understand why governments more than three centuries ago began to originate them. When the Fed was formed in 1914 (after being created by Congress the year before), its primary purpose was to serve as a bankerâ*s bank
[e-gold-list] The Federal Reserve Is All About Stupidity
Subject: ip: The Federal Reserve Is All About Stupidity Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:00:08 -0400 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- begin forwarded text From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:46:32 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ip: The Federal Reserve Is All About Stupidity The Federal Reserve Is All About Stupidity By Charley Reese [EMAIL PROTECTED] © 2001 The Orlando Sentinel 7-9-1 In the late 1960s, you could buy four or five heavy bags of groceries at a supermarket for about $17. Today, you can carry $17 worth groceries in a plastic sack hooked around your little finger. Ever wondered why the change? It's simple. Our currency has been devalued. When a nation's currency is devalued, businesses and professions can raise prices and fees to compensate for the loss of value. It's the working men and women who get the shaft. America's money and credit system is deliberately confusing. The people who designed it were logically afraid that if people understood it, they would never put up with it. Let's start with the money in your pocket. You will notice that it is a Federal Reserve Note. It is redeemable in nothing. It is backed up by nothing. Its exchange value, or purchasing power, is determined by the volume in circulation in comparison with the goods and services available at any given time. What makes the scam possible are those 11 little words tucked away in small type. This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private. Without a legal-tender law, people could defend themselves against devaluation by simply switching to gold or silver or even to a more-stable foreign currency, such as the Swiss franc. In the early days of the Republic, there were many different kinds of money in use. The next step in figuring all this out is to realize that the Federal Reserve System is a privately owned central bank. It was made confusing deliberately. There are 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, each one private and owned by the commercial banks. As in George Orwell's Animal Farm, all the Federal Reserve Banks are equal, but the New York Federal Reserve Bank is more equal than the others are. It handles the government bonds, and its president has a permanent seat on the Federal Reserve Board. This board, whose members are appointed by the president, is a quasi-governmental organization. More quasi than governmental, I assure you. So here is how your money is devalued. When Congress wants to spend $50 billion more than it collects in taxes, it goes to the Federal Reserve. The government gives the Federal Reserve $50 billion in government bonds, and the Federal Reserve adds $50 billion to the government's checking account. Seems reasonable. But there is a catch. Where does the Federal Reserve get the $50 billion to put into the government's checking account? It creates it out of nothing, with a keystroke. The bonds and the interest due on them are paid for with taxes, which is to say the sweat and labor of the American people. In the meantime, to stay with our example, $50 billion in new money has been put into the system. In addition to that, the Federal Reserve can manipulate the economy. To put more money into the system, always in the form of debt at interest, it lowers interest rates; to take money out of the system, it raises interest rates. But always the Federal Reserve acts in the interests of banks -- not in the interests of the people or the country. Ignorant reporters have recently elevated the current Federal Reserve chairman, Alan Greenspan, to folk-hero status. Nothing is more absurd. Still, as another American hero said, Stupid is as stupid does. --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- http://www.constructiongigs.com/ Use gold as money. It's easy. Create a free e-gold account here: http://www.e-gold.com/e-gold.asp?cid=101670 ConstructionGigs.com's PGP public key is here: http://www.constructiongigs.com/assets/DH-DSSkey.txt Fingerprint: 3C4D A63F 3C8B 2D7B 7E1A FFE8 9A2E 4D78 CAD6 66B7 --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: E-Gold New Story 7/10/01
He added that the absence of credit risk exposure in using digital gold, rather than a traditional hard currency, could also change the way financial markets did business -- for example, in allowing the immediate settlement of securities trades and the clearing of multiple dissimilar financial assets. What does this mean? David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: E-Gold New Story 7/10/01
I read it to mean instant clearance of trades, which could have an affect on the spread play earnings of market makers (the security trade kind,not e-currency exchange providers). ...multiple dissimilar financial assets... probably refers to currency trading (arbitrage), buy euro's, sell dollars, etc, sweeping profits into gold currencies between trades. And I could be totally wrong too... Dave He added that the absence of credit risk exposure in using digital gold, rather than a traditional hard currency, could also change the way financial markets did business -- for example, in allowing the immediate settlement of securities trades and the clearing of multiple dissimilar financial assets. What does this mean? David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: E-Gold New Story 7/10/01
Let me see if I have this right. Instead of transferring conventional dollars and cents as payment for various items (securities etc.) through the established maze. You just send a digital gold certificate which represents title to a certain amount of gold. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Joe You may donate any amount of e-gold to: www.loavesandfishessoupkitchen.com - Original Message - From: David Hillary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: E-Gold New Story 7/10/01 He added that the absence of credit risk exposure in using digital gold, rather than a traditional hard currency, could also change the way financial markets did business -- for example, in allowing the immediate settlement of securities trades and the clearing of multiple dissimilar financial assets. What does this mean? David Hillary --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: egold for cash
JP, Thanks for noticing! Our current site is actually located at: http://businesses.msn.com/GEGE/as www.gaithmans.com is under construction. Regarding your question, the opposite is not true at this time. You may make a cash deposit at any of our bank locations by obtaining a deposit ticket, completing it with our Business account information, then depositing CASH with the teller. Orders are filled generally in less than 24 hours. Our outexchange process is rather typical of most Market Makers. We send out company checks, cashiers checks, money orders, bank wires, and soon will be utilizing ACH transfers. Clients picking up CASH from one of our banks is not currently an option. Gaithmans has set out to evolve along with the Gold Economy and we are continuously studying the market and our clients' needs. We are completing negotiations that will be dramatically improving our clients access to multiple digital currencies and related services. It is of importance to note that Gaithmans is NOT the lowest priced Market Maker in the Community. We charge an average of 5% for Inexchanges (minimum fee is $1.00 USD) and we do verify our clients for fraud prevention measures. What we DO offer is Exceptional Customer Service, multiple GBC's, metal-to-metal exchanges, bill payments, wire facilities, and Currency Consulting Services. All of which is well worth the extra point we charge for our service in my humble opinion. Our clients are very important to us! Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://businesses.msn.com/gege/ Gaithmans: your ultimate e-currency exchange service provider! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: [e-gold-list] egold for cash I just observed that http://www.gaithmans.com/ Eric's fine Market Maker servce offers the ability to pay CASH for gold, at many major banks and he's adding more all the time. Fantastic! Eric, is the REVERSE possible, can you somehow have people pick up cash at banks when they sell e-gold? JPM --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal
Eric, I agree fully with you. It would be rather nice if we could check out a new outexchange client, perhaps then we could stop them from getting at their ill gotten gains, that would certainly slow down the amount of fraud. Obviously this requires assistance from the providor's to do, can we expect any assistance? Frank, Euro Gold Line --- Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gentlemen, May I be so rude as to interject? There is zero risk in outexchanging E-Gold and you have to get it from somewhere. I must disagree with you on this point. Technically, there is no *immediate* risk on outexchanges because the transaction is non-reputiable, agreed. However, due to the large numbers of scammers who hide in e-gold (auction scammers, program scammers, pyramid promoters, for instance) there is a LARGE *associated* risk in outexchanging e-gold. For example, I attempted to assist in the refund process for Eurocredits (monies were to be refunded from E-Biz investors) by facilitating transfers from eurocredit dollars to Standard Reserve currency. Gary Stroud of EuroCredit bank was to exchange the eurocredit dollars for USD to wire to my company in exchange for his clients transfers to SR currency. Rather than sending USD from EuroCredit bank, he liquidated e-gold holdings and had a wire for $9715 sent to my company informing me that he simply wanted to cash out of e-gold before using the USD backing EuroCredits. This seemed logical as he claimed to have holdings in several digital currencies and owned several large companies. His ID, phone numbers, and physical addresses all were verifiable. Three weeks later I have received calls from the SEC, the Superior Court of Western Oklahoma, the court appointed receiver AND the prosecutor from the case Gary Stroud is involved in. It appears that the e-gold holdings Gary Stroud liquidated was really just more e-gold he scammed out of new investors for more programs he was promoting. He was never able to produce USD from EuroCredit bank. It appears that eurocredit dollars are the equivalent of Monopoly money. (You know, nice to look at, fun to play with and imagine spending, but ultimately worth less than the paper it was printed on.) So, just because a transaction is non-reputiable (non-reversible) does not mean it does not have risk associated with it. Scammers, con-artists, and simple thieves are well acquainted with the rules of e-gold and frequently use those rules to their advantage. As a Market Maker, we are then left in the sticky situation where we are sometimes unknowingly duped into helping a criminal outexchange funds taken from a victim. (The auction scammer is a prime example!) Now more than ever Outexchange transactions need to have as much (if not MORE) Due Diligence completed as Inexchange transactions. Completing outexchanges for people can sometimes drop their dirty laundry right on top of your unsuspecting head. Thanks for listening. Eric Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://businesses.msn.com/gege/ Gaithmans: your ultimate e-currency exchange service provider! - Original Message - From: Vince Callaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: [e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Graham Kelly wrote: Ian, I tend to agree, but I learned a long time ago, that people who undercut a service fee-wise, are generally not around a while later... so I've [snip] Not always true. There is zero risk in outexchanging E-Gold and you have to get it from somewhere. Like any business rates are adjusted according to the market. I was paying 2% for peoples E-Gold. I pay out in Paypal. I was getting to the point where I was buying more E-Gold than I was selling. I dropped the 2% and now things are working well. I also increased my in-exchange rate to 10%. The only payments I use are Paypal. I do address and phone verification on all new customers. That can get somewhat expensive. The ironic part is since I raised my rate from 8% to 10% my order volume has increased. Go figure. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Get your free OSGold or e-gold account, visit our site and click on one of the buttons. http://www.eurogoldline.nl Need to manage your e-gold account? Compare our rates. Serving Europe, and the WORLD!! http://www.eurogoldline.nl Stop getting ripped off, learn how to fight back, join http
[e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal
Eric, I agree fully with you. It would be rather nice if we could check out a new outexchange client, perhaps then we could stop them from getting at their ill gotten gains, that would certainly slow down the amount of fraud. Obviously this requires assistance from the providor's to do, can we expect any assistance? Frank, Euro Gold Line --- Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gentlemen, May I be so rude as to interject? There is zero risk in outexchanging E-Gold and you have to get it from somewhere. I must disagree with you on this point. Technically, there is no *immediate* risk on outexchanges because the transaction is non-reputiable, agreed. However, due to the large numbers of scammers who hide in e-gold (auction scammers, program scammers, pyramid promoters, for instance) there is a LARGE *associated* risk in outexchanging e-gold. For example, I attempted to assist in the refund process for Eurocredits (monies were to be refunded from E-Biz investors) by facilitating transfers from eurocredit dollars to Standard Reserve currency. Gary Stroud of EuroCredit bank was to exchange the eurocredit dollars for USD to wire to my company in exchange for his clients transfers to SR currency. Rather than sending USD from EuroCredit bank, he liquidated e-gold holdings and had a wire for $9715 sent to my company informing me that he simply wanted to cash out of e-gold before using the USD backing EuroCredits. This seemed logical as he claimed to have holdings in several digital currencies and owned several large companies. His ID, phone numbers, and physical addresses all were verifiable. Three weeks later I have received calls from the SEC, the Superior Court of Western Oklahoma, the court appointed receiver AND the prosecutor from the case Gary Stroud is involved in. It appears that the e-gold holdings Gary Stroud liquidated was really just more e-gold he scammed out of new investors for more programs he was promoting. He was never able to produce USD from EuroCredit bank. It appears that eurocredit dollars are the equivalent of Monopoly money. (You know, nice to look at, fun to play with and imagine spending, but ultimately worth less than the paper it was printed on.) So, just because a transaction is non-reputiable (non-reversible) does not mean it does not have risk associated with it. Scammers, con-artists, and simple thieves are well acquainted with the rules of e-gold and frequently use those rules to their advantage. As a Market Maker, we are then left in the sticky situation where we are sometimes unknowingly duped into helping a criminal outexchange funds taken from a victim. (The auction scammer is a prime example!) Now more than ever Outexchange transactions need to have as much (if not MORE) Due Diligence completed as Inexchange transactions. Completing outexchanges for people can sometimes drop their dirty laundry right on top of your unsuspecting head. Thanks for listening. Eric Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://businesses.msn.com/gege/ Gaithmans: your ultimate e-currency exchange service provider! - Original Message - From: Vince Callaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: [e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Graham Kelly wrote: Ian, I tend to agree, but I learned a long time ago, that people who undercut a service fee-wise, are generally not around a while later... so I've [snip] Not always true. There is zero risk in outexchanging E-Gold and you have to get it from somewhere. Like any business rates are adjusted according to the market. I was paying 2% for peoples E-Gold. I pay out in Paypal. I was getting to the point where I was buying more E-Gold than I was selling. I dropped the 2% and now things are working well. I also increased my in-exchange rate to 10%. The only payments I use are Paypal. I do address and phone verification on all new customers. That can get somewhat expensive. The ironic part is since I raised my rate from 8% to 10% my order volume has increased. Go figure. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Get your free OSGold or e-gold account, visit our site and click on one of the buttons. http://www.eurogoldline.nl Need to manage your e-gold account? Compare our rates. Serving Europe, and the WORLD!! http://www.eurogoldline.nl Stop getting ripped off, learn how to fight back, join http
[e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal
CCS, Thanks for pointing out a few things: You are confusing several different and unrelated things. 1. You received a wire not e-gold. 2. Dealing with a known crook is risky Neither of these risks is associated with an e-gold outexchange. 1. I did, in fact, receive a bank wire from Omnipay, not Gary Stroud. This proves the claims of Gary Stroud and EuroCredit bank that wires have been intercepted by Omnipay are false and just circulated to delay enlighten of EuroCredit account holders about his bank's non-USD backing. 2. Yes, dealing with a known crook IS risky. However, you are correct in your earlier statement, I received that wire from Omnipay. So, Omnipay fulfilled the outexchange, not Gaithmans. If Gary Stroud is a known crook (which I am learning more about everyday), this brings to question two things: a. Does Omnipay not get involved with Due Diligence with outexchanges? (Which, they probably do not have to according to the User Agreement.) b. Why is a KNOWN crook (your words) allowed to outexchange e-gold? (Again, probably your answer will be the User Agreement. Realistically this is more of an ethics vs. morals issue.) 3. The outexchange risk in this situation was absorbed by Omnipay, not Gaithmans. However, according to the SEC who has given me a couple of polite phone calls, accepting funds from a KNOWN crook could still be considered illegal, especially when that crook and his colleagues are under a court ordered asset freeze. IT does not matter if you received those funds in digital form, paper form, electronic form, or hand delivered. You still RECEIVED those funds from a crook through what is known as a money laundering route. (bait, switch, change forms, reroute and whola!!!) My point to all of this is that if you honestly believe that there is ZERO risk associated with outexchanges, you are wrong. There ARE risks associated with outexchanges. Not the risk of having your transaction reversed, but worse, having your company dragged into the mischief of another. Market Makers have absolutely no way of knowing where a client got the e-gold the wants to outexchange. While this protects the individual wanting to outexchange, it certainly does nothing for anyone who was victimized by the person. That has pro's and con's. And yes, CCS, believe it or not, this is DEFINITELY related to e-gold outexchanges. I am not pointing fingers, just pointing out facts. I do not think people who put money into Gary Stroud's or any other program are victims. They voluntarily put their money into the programs in the beginning. However, the auction scams, people who get their accounts hacked (usually do to lack of safe practices) and other known scams prove that one can steal and wash it through e-gold. As the Market Maker on the outexchange, you then run the risk (even through you do not know where the money came from) of getting dragged into some ugly court cases. More than anything else, this just demonstrates the magnitude of growing pains the Gold Economy faces in the future. I am not blaming anyone, nor asking for help, just pointing out that the statement zero risk involved in outexchanges is far from the truth when you fully understand the legal ramifications one can face by being a Market Maker. Thanks, Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://businesses.msn.com/gege/ Gaithmans: your ultimate e-currency exchange service provider! - Original Message - From: Craig Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal Eric, There is zero risk in outexchanging E-Gold and you have to get it from somewhere. I must disagree with you on this point. Technically, there is no *immediate* risk on outexchanges because the transaction is non-reputiable, agreed. However, due to the large numbers of scammers who hide in e-gold (auction scammers, program scammers, pyramid promoters, for instance) there is a LARGE *associated* risk in outexchanging e-gold. ... he liquidated e-gold holdings and had a wire for $9715 sent to my company So, just because a transaction is non-reputiable (non-reversible) does not mean it does not have risk associated with it. You are confusing several different and unrelated things. 1. You received a wire not e-gold. 2. Dealing with a known crook is risky Niether of these risks is associated with an e-gold outexchange. CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal
Just wondered how you would go about deciding which outexchanges were ill gotten gains? Eric said he did verify ID, address, etc., what more would you need to assure yourself that it was clean money? Do you really want to start a serious know your customer thing like the banks? Gary - Original Message - From: Frank Zuchristian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:07 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] RE: E-Gold to Paypal Eric, I agree fully with you. It would be rather nice if we could check out a new outexchange client, perhaps then we could stop them from getting at their ill gotten gains, that would certainly slow down the amount of fraud. Obviously this requires assistance from the providor's to do, can we expect any assistance? Frank, Euro Gold Line --- Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gentlemen, May I be so rude as to interject? There is zero risk in outexchanging E-Gold and you have to get it from somewhere. I must disagree with you on this point. Technically, there is no *immediate* risk on outexchanges because the transaction is non-reputiable, agreed. However, due to the large numbers of scammers who hide in e-gold (auction scammers, program scammers, pyramid promoters, for instance) there is a LARGE *associated* risk in outexchanging e-gold. For example, I attempted to assist in the refund process for Eurocredits (monies were to be refunded from E-Biz investors) by facilitating transfers from eurocredit dollars to Standard Reserve currency. Gary Stroud of EuroCredit bank was to exchange the eurocredit dollars for USD to wire to my company in exchange for his clients transfers to SR currency. Rather than sending USD from EuroCredit bank, he liquidated e-gold holdings and had a wire for $9715 sent to my company informing me that he simply wanted to cash out of e-gold before using the USD backing EuroCredits. This seemed logical as he claimed to have holdings in several digital currencies and owned several large companies. His ID, phone numbers, and physical addresses all were verifiable. Three weeks later I have received calls from the SEC, the Superior Court of Western Oklahoma, the court appointed receiver AND the prosecutor from the case Gary Stroud is involved in. It appears that the e-gold holdings Gary Stroud liquidated was really just more e-gold he scammed out of new investors for more programs he was promoting. He was never able to produce USD from EuroCredit bank. It appears that eurocredit dollars are the equivalent of Monopoly money. (You know, nice to look at, fun to play with and imagine spending, but ultimately worth less than the paper it was printed on.) So, just because a transaction is non-reputiable (non-reversible) does not mean it does not have risk associated with it. Scammers, con-artists, and simple thieves are well acquainted with the rules of e-gold and frequently use those rules to their advantage. As a Market Maker, we are then left in the sticky situation where we are sometimes unknowingly duped into helping a criminal outexchange funds taken from a victim. (The auction scammer is a prime example!) Now more than ever Outexchange transactions need to have as much (if not MORE) Due Diligence completed as Inexchange transactions. Completing outexchanges for people can sometimes drop their dirty laundry right on top of your unsuspecting head. Thanks for listening. Eric Eric Gaither, President Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (317) 788-8580 Voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://businesses.msn.com/gege/ Gaithmans: your ultimate e-currency exchange service provider! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.263 / Virus Database: 135 - Release Date: 6/23/01 --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Article (translation) that mentions e-gold
of the original, which resulted in legal trouble on a number of occasions. In Australia, a court case was dismissed almost right away, after which Boggs received $20,000 dollar in damages. In England, Scotland Yard arrested him and confiscated his work while he was installing a gallery exhibition. Again, he was acquitted of the charges. To celebrate his victory, Boggs announced that he would live on self-made money for an entire year. In the United States, however, his trials have caused him more lasting trouble. When Boggs was spending a year as a fellow at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, the Secret Service raided his apartment and studio and confiscated approximately 1,300 objects. Although the U.S. Attorney did not press charges, Boggs has been involved in a legal battle for almost a decade now to get all his belongings back. Paradoxically one of the few counterfeited bills that he owned (but did not make himself) was returned, but the Secret Service kept the clownish 1,000,000 dollar bill anybody can order from the Internet. Incidentally, the trial will result in the largest transaction in Boggs' career as a money artist, since he plans to pay for the lawyer's fee, which amounts to around a million dollar, with 100,000-dollar bills. Boggs' lawyers, who are most sympathetic to his case, promised to accept them as a valid means of payment. Unlike the Secret Service, the contemporary art world does value Boggs' bills. Museums like the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, the Museum of Modern Art in New York and the British Museum in London own copies of his work. Private collectors underscore their cultural value by offering Boggs considerable sums for a hint about when and where he spent his bills; subsequently they pay large sums to acquire a bill from the shopkeepers who were brave enough to accept Boggs' money. Like Duchamp, whose signature was sought after in the 1960s as if he was a celebrity, Boggs has a large following of people eager to get his signature. Personal fans have to pay him a small fee for an autograph, while a signature is only within reach for mavericks who are willing to spend 2,000 dollar or more. No need for Boggs to complain about financial or artistic rewards. In short, Boggs' bills generate extreme, albeit contradictory reactions. I wonder, however, if the legal trouble and the arti-financial success that his work generates are really that distinct. Note, for instance, that both the legal apparatus and the army of collectors ultimately intend to take his work out of circulation. And when it comes to their sense of humor, my expectations of a collector who pays 50,000 dollar or more for a Boggs bill are no higher than of a prosecutor who wants to stop Boggs from making the bills in the first place. Both try to 'capture' Boggs, with either money or the law as their instrument. In vain, I presume. No land for no money I met Boggs when he was in Amsterdam early February for a performance in the 'West Indisch Huis.' In the 17th century, the 'West Indisch Huis' was built for the West Indische Compagnie, which enjoyed a monopoly on trade between America, West Africa and Holland. Currently the building is the home base of the John Adams Institute, which organizes lectures by American intellectuals, writers and artists. Title of Boggs' performance there was 'I'll take Manhattan.' At the start of the performance Boggs, 44, wild gray-blond hair that nearly reaches his shoulders, takes a digital picture of the audience - a bag filled with orange plastic Sacagawea coins lies between his legs. Then he recounts the story of Peter Minuit, governor of the West Indische Compagnie, who sailed to the island of Manhattan. He was welcomed in May 1626, exactly 375 years ago, by an Indian clan. Soon after his arrival Minuit bought the island from the Indians for trinkets worth sixty guilders. Among those trinkets was 'wampum', the Indian word for bead money, which not only had monetary but also cultural value for many clans - 'wampum' was a means of transmitting the history of the clan from generation to generation. The Dutch, however, did not have history but money on their mind, which induced them to create their own 'wampum' in order to deal with the Indians. Unknowingly, the Indians responded appropriately to the sly and sacrilegious offer of the Dutch: they accepted the trinkets, but since they lacked a conception of land ownership, the Indians must have conceived of the transaction as some foreign ritual. If you think of it, no land was exchanged for no money on that May Day in 1626. The story of Minuit and the Indians is a perfect pre-figuration of Boggs own work; Minuit paid, just like Boggs, with improvised money, and probably needed a good share of rhetoric to do so. The color of Boggs' Sacagawea coins is the same as the family name of the Dutch royal family: Orange. In fact, many of the first Dutch settlers on Manhattan used to live north of the island
[e-gold-list] Re: Defense Fund - Update
Chris Lord-Van Voorst wrote: There are those of us on the e-gold list who don't even know who Charles Evans is. No one has yet to explain why Evans deserves funding in his fight against e-gold. If there's more to the story, I'd like to hear it. Until then, any pleas on Evans' behalf are meaningless, in my opinion... Chris Lord-Van Voorst Chris, People fear frivolous law suites now a days so you probably won't get much history from this list. However, this is a great example of the importance of reputation capital. This list is almost 2 years old now. Both on and off list, Charles and Ian have built impecable reputations. Doug has built a reputation also. Reputations are built by what one says and doesn't say. By what one does and doesn't do. On list and off. A single action can ruin the value built of years of what you say and do. Charles and Ian understand this and take their reputations dead seriously. I have no doubt about those two. I'd put money up for Charles in a heart beat. And I have. And, as a shareholder in GSR, I'm really, really dissapointed in Doug and Barry, and think Doug's CEO butt should be fired. I believe chairman of the board is the appropiate place for Doug's butt. I think these suits (according to a Bob Hettinga post to his list, Ian was served again in Edinburgh, They got Ian Grigg, too.) that Doug has decided to pursue are going to turn out to be a substantial negative for e-gold and the value of my shares. As Khurram Khan a while back on this list pointed out, there is no mystery to starting a private gold backed currency business. Time will tell. Did you miss this post? Subject: [e-gold-list] Termination of services to DigiGold II Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:04:50 +0100 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- begin forwarded text Status: U Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:41:04 -0400 From: Bob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Bearerinstruments.com To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [e-gold-list] Termination of services to DigiGold II Subject: [Webfunds-users] Termination of services to DigiGold II (June 19th) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:21:58 -0400 From: Jeroen C. van Gelderen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Systemics Inc. To: WebFunds Users [EMAIL PROTECTED] L.S., On 21 May 2001 Ian Grigg announced that Systemics Inc. would cease supporting DigiGold on the 25th of May 2001 due to non-payment leading to termination of the contract between both parties. In a subsequent email this shutdown date was pushed forward by one week to give DigiGold users a bit more time to take action. Tuesday 29th of May an injunction was filed against Systemics to prevent us from shutting down the DigiGold Issuance Server. The matter was deferred until the 19th of June. This morning we went to court 9:00 (GMT-4). The judge heard the case in private chambers so we do not have all the details. We know our counsel proposed that the injunction could be sustained if DigiGold were to pay our operational costs. The opposition apparently did not accept this offer. The net-effect is that the judge decided to discharge the injunction and to award Systemics costs. We are still faced with an unfortunate situation: Systemics has operated the DigiGold Issuance Server at it's own expense for the past year. We can no longer afford to do so as this negatively impacts our paying customers. We have therefore decided to take the DigiGold Issuance Server offline. That will happen today (June 19th). For DigiGold users this means that it will no longer possible to make payments in any of the four DigiGold metals. We regret any inconvenience this may cause. Regards, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ WebFunds-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.webfunds.org/mailman/listinfo/webfunds-users --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Or this one: Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: it never ends!!! Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:54:54 -0400 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED
[e-gold-list] monopoly?
In the affadavitB in the dispute between GSR and Systemics, the following paragraph is found: Moreover, Ian also is expressing reticence to even allow [GSR] to proceed with the projects that have been the well discussed goal of this lengthy investment, that is: a) continuation of exclusive right to issue metal denominated currencies (now that the market server exists, which is the whole point of DigiGold's niche as a financial currency) I find it interesting that anyone wishing to lauch a payment technology with the intent of making it an international standard protocol would limit it contractually by giving oneself a monopoly on using the protocol. This by itself would doom the standard to failure, as the other players in the market who wish to issue metal-denominated currency would be forced to develop or adopt a DIFFERENT protocol for digital cash. If any of these payment systems, protocols, or software are ever to take off and become THE widely accepted payment system on the Internet, they MUST allow anyone to use them. Your software won't become accepted in the market if the licensing erects barriers to entry that prevent a free market. This is why I think the full development of internet currencies will not happen until there is a full separation between the protocols, the software, and the underwriters (currency issuers). e-gold is using Microsoft tactics in an arena that has shown over and over again that freedom of entry produces the most wealth. (Look what happened when PC clones brought the price down on the hardware in early nineties.) Did Microsoft save any money by squashing Netscape? No, they both ended up giving away their browsers. Millions of dollars in software development went down the drain with no return, and the Justice Department broke up Microsoft to boot. The way to beat the competition is to produce a better product and offer better service, not try to run them out of business. Like Microsoft, e-gold has the massive head-start on all of their competitio n. Even though the gold currency market is still just a drop in the bucket, e-gold is a zillion miles ahead of the competition in terms of market share and name-recognition. E-gold has far more to gain from a free market than their competitors because as the market grows in size, they will continue to be the standard setter if they maintain good fiscal policy and customer service. I think that e-gold has done a great thing in creating this market. Doug Jackson is undoubtedly a visionary. However, it would be wise to recognize that in building the infrastructure for the gold economy, there HAS TO BE FREEDOM OF ENTRY in order for it to be successful in the long run. Those financing software development that builds the infrastructure should keep that in mind. It has been proved that the first person or company to introduce a product or service to the internet makes the most money from it, even if it isn't patent protected. E-gold will make the most money from digital gold, even though the market will eventually fill with competitors. No sense in slowing down both growth and profit by trying to suppress the competition. Regards, Ken Griffith --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: Fractional Reserve Banking... What is it good for?
I think, Sam, that you are on the right track there. Fractional reserve is fine IF the institution tells the customer in the user agreement, If you ask for your money at any time we MIGHT give it to you, or we MIGHT NOT. Perhaps a better way of dealing with that problem is short-term rolling CD's where you lock your money in for a week or a month at a time. This gives the institution some predicatability and run protection. As the issue applies to gold digital currencies, I would suggest the following standard should be adopted in the industry: A currency that is 100% backed by gold may sell itself as AUG or grams of gold. Any financial instrument, whether it be a currency, investment, or other, that is only partially backed by gold or gold currency, and partially backed by something else (whether something else is nothing or gold stocks or mutual funds or currency basket) may sell itself as AUG equivalent or come up with some abbreviation so that the consumer can tell that this product is measuring it's value in units of AUG, but isn't actually AUG. Kind of like selling a mutual fund denominated in dollars instead of shares. The mutual fund is not backed by dollars, but it is a liquid investment that is easily converted to dollars, so you just denominate it in dollar equivalents. This in my mind would solve the problem of diluting the value of gold by selling ether gold (ether gold = selling units of gold that are not actually backed by gold.). - Original Message - From: Samuel Mc Kee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 11:16 AM Subject: [e-gold-list] RE: Fractional Reserve Banking... What is it good for? I am quite possibly going to brand myself a pariah on this list by standing up in favor of fractional reserve banking, though certainly not its current incarnation. There is nothing wrong with fractional reserves per se. The problem is the incestuous relationship between the checking and the savings parts of a bank. The checking part should be 100% backed by cash in the vault. The savings part should be a completely seperate entity that holds an account at the bank and has no claim on the bank other than the balance of its own checking account. The two institutions should be incorporated separately, and neither should own a piece of the other. Ideally, if Sam's Savings has five million in deposits, one million in reserves, then the one million should be in a checking account owned by Sam's Savings at Joe Blow's Bank, and it should be 100% backed by cold, hard cash in the vault. Sam's Savings would then pay monthly fees to Joe Blow's Bank to store the cash (does this sound familiar?). If Sam's Savings goes belly-up because of loan defaults, depositors and whoever else has a claim against it can come after the million but can't touch the rest of the money in Joe Blow's vault because it never belonged to Sam's Savings in any way. If Joe's Bank goes belly-up...well, Joe's Bank _can't_ go belly-up. The virtue of this system is that people who want to earn interest can voluntarily deposit their money into Sam's Savings and understand that they are taking a risk. People who want their money safe can keep it in a checking account at Joe Blow's bank and understand that they are giving up a chance to earn interest and will actually pay monthly fees. It's their choice. Sadly, the banking system we actually have is the evil twin of the system I just described. In our present banking system the two entities are comingled, so customers have no choice. Someone with all his money in a checking account is put at risk because the bank can go belly-up because of bad loans. Of course, banks are insured by the FDIC. That simply means that taxpayers, who have no say in the banks' decision-making process, are forced to pay for irresponsible decisions made by bank managers. When a bank fails the politicians, bank regulators and all their relatives are warned in advance so that they can withdraw their funds. The remaining mess is then paid for by the taxpayers. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Digital Dollars
in the Netguide Magazine there is an article on Digital Dollars which includes a small piece on e-gold. entitled e-gold: not exactly a gold rush. Here is the exact quote on e-gold from the articles which also mentiones Beenz and technocash but contains links to cybank, cybergold,ecashtechnologies and a few others. Paypal is not mentioned, nor ezcmoney, SR, osgold or any others. Here is the Article: e-gold:not exactly a gold rush Established in 1996, e-gold www.e-gold.com is a cyber currency that rather than being associated with a bank, is backed by real world gold bullion and other precious metals. Instead of basing its payments system against the US dollar as some others do, the e-gold system is based on the precious metals it has in storage in vaults in London and Dubai. It claims to have more that 208000 active accounts. Subscribers can purchase the metals in various quanitities raning from a few grams to many ounces and spend then with e-gold traders. The gold can be spent either by weight or by its equivalent value in eight major currencies including Australian dollars. While e-gold does not charge for opening an account, it does charge a transaction fee of 1% of the value of transactions under US$50 and a maximum of US50c for every transaction over that. There is also a 1% annum storage charge for looking after your gold, silver or palladium and e-gold traders will charge up to 8.5% for buying and selling e-gold precious metals. More than 20 gold companies, including several that operate within Australia, now trade in e-gold. Other companies, including Digigold www.digigold.net , have developed their own digital currency backed by e-gold reserves. Kind regards, michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gold-today.com Sign up with e-gold today and get grams of e-gold here. http://www.e-gold.com/newacct/newaccount.ascid=129542 Sign up with osgold and get an osgold account today http://www.osgold.com/index.php?id=1008 subscribe to the gold-today discussion group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goldtoday ~~ two cents worth?? http://two-cents-worth.com/?goldtoday - Receive faxes 24x7, no second line necessary. http://www.mbox.com.au/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: egold is a shit currency for scams and hyips
On 21 Jun 2001, at 22:25, PowerClicks wrote: So how much do you dump? $100, $1000, $1, more? You are assuming everyone is bullish on gold. Long term... being bullish on gold is the only thing that make sense. Apart from exchange risk, to use it as a money store you need the trust factor... egold would need to partner with major financial institutions in order to build that trust Not necessarily. Time can do the same thing. e-gold i smuch more trustable now than it was 5 years ago. GoldMoney has a man with with International reputation as its founder. The trend is for these currencies to continue to improve and get market share. Simply because thet are the best offering for digital commerce. Since everything will be digital 10-20 years down the road... Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold-list digest: June 20, 2001
So it's offered as an option in the setup screens, notify me if somebody pays me, and the default is don't. Spends will still go onto the statements, they just won't result in users recieving emails. That still requires e-gold to spend time resources on making e-gold a better get-paid-to-read-email system rather than a better private digital currency. All who want e-gold to be turned into a get-paid-to-read-mail program, please raise your hand. With the idea of spamdonations being out there now and trivial to implement, I see little way to prevent it. Check out the recent discussion on e-gold supposedly supporting HYIPs becuase they don't enact draconian measures that would also harm innocent individuals. There is a major difference between what indepedent individuals do with e-gold and what e-gold officially does. If e-gold included the option in the sign-up screen, that would be an official action. They would be officially recognizing and endorsing the fact that account holders will be spammed mercilessly. There are already a few paid-to-read programs out there. Vince at freedomhound.com even has something like it with his NicklesWorth program. I heartily support these operations. One thing I think a few people haven't realized about the acct spamming is that you only have 50 characters to work with. One other point about acct spamming is that you don't know which 95,000 accts are funded, so you would have to spend to every single account. That would destroy that valuable fact on the stats page. It would show that there are 250,000 accts of which 250,000 are funded. I want e-gold to remain a currency, plain and simple. I don't want them to turn into some sort of ad house/paid-to-read program. Let e-gold ltd. do what it does best, be a accounting system for it's private digital currency. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Notifications
Viking Coder wrote: So it's offered as an option in the setup screens, notify me if somebody pays me, and the default is don't. Spends will still go onto the statements, they just won't result in users recieving emails. That still requires e-gold to spend time resources on making e-gold a better get-paid-to-read-email system rather than a better private digital currency. Notifications are useful for more than spam - for example, they are an excellent automation tool, and useful for ordinary people so they can see when their MM comes though with the goods, etc etc. Even with no change to anything, microdonation and memo spamming are trivial and show in the statement pages. [...]If e-gold included the option in the sign-up screen, that would be an official action. They would be officially recognizing and endorsing the fact that account holders will be spammed mercilessly. No, its effect would be that they could *choose* to be spammed, *mercifully*, as well as any non spam usefulness. That is, notifications will be under their sole control, even if the money comes in anyway. And it will have the effect of pushing up donation amounts in order to persuade people to take notice. One thing I think a few people haven't realized about the acct spamming is that you only have 50 characters to work with. So? You can still do enough with that. One other point about acct spamming is that you don't know which 95,000 accts are funded, so you would have to spend to every single account. That would destroy that valuable fact on the stats page. It would show that there are 250,000 accts of which 250,000 are funded. No means possible of preventing that, unfortunately. The number funded by more than X will become more useful instead. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] New E-Gold SPAM - Payment System
I want e-gold to remain a currency, plain and simple. I don't want them to turn into some sort of ad house/paid-to-read program. Let e-gold ltd. do what it does best, be a accounting system for it's private digital currency. I think you're missing the point a little bit. I think what we're suggesting is that E-Gold, (without changing their current Spend Fuction), implent a new function which will give businesses the option of spamming the entire e-gold list of email addresses by PAYING the receivers to receive their email messages! Certain key points are: 1) Every account holder will be able to set an amount that he will have to be paid to receive a spam email message, up to, and including very large values which would effectively eliminate him from receiving ANY messages. 2) Businesses would be able to choose the amount to spend to EACH account to get their message out. 3) Businesses would be notified, once they chose an amount to spend to each account, how many account email addresses would be sent a message, and how much this would cost, and how the accounts were broken down by value. 4) The spends would be categorized as such so that the receivers could 'filter' them out of their account history. Craig --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: New E-Gold SPAM - Payment System
I think you're missing the point a little bit. No. I am not. I completely understand what is being proposed. implent a new function which will give businesses the option of spamming the entire e-gold list of email addresses by PAYING the receivers to receive their email messages! This would be much better accomplished and served by an indepedent entity/company. I didn't join a paid-to-read program. I created an account in globally usuable, private digital currency. Leave e-gold alone! Let it be a currency PERIOD Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: New E-Gold SPAM - Payment System
SnowDog wrote: I want e-gold to remain a currency, plain and simple. I don't want them to turn into some sort of ad house/paid-to-read program. Let e-gold ltd. do what it does best, be a accounting system for it's private digital currency. I think you're missing the point a little bit. I think what we're suggesting is that E-Gold, (without changing their current Spend Fuction), implent a new function which will give businesses the option of spamming the entire e-gold list of email addresses by PAYING the receivers to receive their email messages! I'm not suggesting this, I'm suggesting only notifications and perhaps minimum-spend-allowed options so the user can regulate the intrinsic and pre-existing capability of including spam inside spend memos. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] fair enough
I want e-gold to remain a currency, plain and simple. I don't want them to turn into some sort of ad house/paid-to-read program. Let e-gold ltd. do what it does best, be a accounting system for it's private digital currency. That's fair enough -- but that means that non-cottage industries won't have much to do with e-gold until there's some way to reach e-gold users. Non-cottage industry e-gold-related magazine sites (or maybe paper magazines) may be the way; one would imagine those will come along in time; the media (ie -- advertising venues) are necessary for commerce. In the mean time, there won't be any non-cottage-industry e-gold related business ventures. -- I feel like we're inside a Civilization game and there's some fucking idiot playing. --Michael T. McNamara --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Termination of services to DigiGold II
You missed the point (as usual)... --- Viking Coder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TANSTAAFL... It was in beta release with a total circulation of ~US$73,000. Once it went into full release it was going to become a frac reserve currency with e-metal backing 25% of the total circulation. A frac reserve currency can be a 'free lunch' because it is subsidized by investments. However, then a the currency isn't 100% backed. So you're correct about TANSTAAFL, just not in this case. I was referring to the fact that e-gold expected to continue using Systemic's services without paying... Next digital bearer gold by GoldMoney... he he he Since when? GoldMoney is an account-based system just like e-gold, Standard Reserve, and OSGold. Are you just being a GoldMoney shill for the fun of it? e-gold was trying to enforce an exclusive license for themselves to use the systemics systems for ny metal backed currency (digigold). I was just pushing the thought that now the opportunity may be open for goldmoney (or some other gold backed currency) to license the systemics technology since it appears e-gold have lost their exclusive rights. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Termination of services to DigiGold II
You missed the point (as usual)... I realized you probably meant e-gold, but didn't feel like to composing another message. I have a bad habit of missing the obvious point and seeing the less obvious, and possibly/usually unintended, points of a statement or problem. It comes from being a programmer and having to contort my mind to solve various problems or root out bugs in the code. This winds up leaving my permanently warped. :) e-gold was trying to enforce an exclusive license for themselves to use the systemics systems for ny metal backed currency (digigold). Yet again, a point I must have missed somewhere. I don't remember ever hearing mention that e-gold had an exlusive license on using systemics for metal backed currency. I was just pushing the thought that now the opportunity may be open for goldmoney (or some other gold backed currency) to license the systemics technology since it appears e-gold have lost their exclusive rights. If the code is open for licensing then anybody should be to purchase it. They don't have to be a GBC. All it requires is to have the backing available. This could a large sum of e-gold in an account; or GoldMoney, or both. The new digital bearer currency would then use that account(s) as the backing. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Termination of services to DigiGold II
TANSTAAFL... It was in beta release with a total circulation of ~US$73,000. Once it went into full release it was going to become a frac reserve currency with e-metal backing 25% of the total circulation. A frac reserve currency can be a 'free lunch' because it is subsidized by investments. However, then a the currency isn't 100% backed. So you're correct about TANSTAAFL, just not in this case. tangent type=irrelevant I saw a jewelry shop named 'TANSTAAFL Jewelers' ealier this year. I asked them about the name, and they said it had no particular meaning. They were having trouble coming up with a name for their shop, and TANSTAAFL is an interesting sounding word; they knew what it meant. /tangent Next digital bearer gold by GoldMoney... he he he Since when? GoldMoney is an account-based system just like e-gold, Standard Reserve, and OSGold. Are you just being a GoldMoney shill for the fun of it? Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] 2 weeks until EFCE 2001 !
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EFCE 2001 22-23 June 2001 Edinburgh UK =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Only 2 weeks to go until EFCE 2001 ! EFCE 2001 is the leading engineering conference in the field of Financial Cryptography. Companies active in the field meet to present and demonstrate Running Code that pushes forward the state of the art. This year's programme shows a wide range of financial technologies to be unveiled, both software and hardware, with international speakers assembling from the US, the Caribbean and Central Europe. Please join us in Edinburgh 22-23 June 2001 (Friday/Saturday) for what promises to be an exciting and fascinating event. Details on the website at http://www.efce.net or mail me directly! Rachel Willmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] General Chair, EFCE 2001 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- KEYNOTE SPEAKER David Wyatt Development Director CrestCo Ltd http://www.crestco.co.uk Access to CREST (the core UK settlement infrastructure responsible for GBP 220bn of business a day) is at the moment restricted to those who can afford to use the private networks licensed by CRESTCo. But new technologies, especially cryptography, are changing all this. David will describe how he proposes to allow retail investors to interact directly with CREST, cheaply but securely over the Internet, to instruct and settle transactions with their broker - or perhaps with each other. He will describe how he will at the same time link them direct to their bank or building society accounts, to pay immediately a trade is struck with real-world cash. He will describe how CRESTCo will prototype this within the year and he will show how easy it is to take this structure and turn it into a real-time loading mechanism for putting cash (and UK or foreign equities, gilts and other bonds, etc) onto the net. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Electronic cash and private credentials based on Stefan Brands' technologies Ulf Möller Zero-Knowledge Systems Inc. Montreal, Canada Zero-Knowledge Systems is developing an SDK for electronic cash and private credentials based on Stefan Brands' technologies. Ulf Möller from ZKS will discuss this toolkit and demonstrate e-cash on a mobile device. http://www.zeroknowledge.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- GoldMoney.com - A Solid Currency for Global Commerce Geoffrey Turk GoldMoney Nassau, Bahamas GoldMoney is an Internet payment system that greatly advances electronic commerce by providing a safe, cost-effective and easy way to exchange money for goods and services. By combining the power of Internet technology with the simplicity of gold, the world's oldest money, GoldMoney enables its users to make instant, non-repudiable payments to anyone around the world at any time, day or night. Geoffrey will demonstrate the current payment technology in GoldMoney, along with an introduction to some new functionality including digital certificate authentication, two-step payment key authentication and trusted third party integration. Geoffrey Turk is the Operations Manager of GoldMoney. http://www.goldmoney.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The Secure Execution Engine from nCipher Ross Younger nCipher Cambridge, UK nCipher have recently developed the Secure Execution Engine which allows developers to place their security critical code into a Hardware Security Module. Signed code executing within the Engine can have rights over your cryptographic material delegated to it, contingent on it bearing a signature from a party authorised to use the material in question. Ross will show how this can be used to enforce policy and protect the execution of protocols which may be insecure when executed on a host computer, even if the keys in question are secured in an HSM. During the talk he will demonstrate use of the APIs, the process of signing code, nCipher's host-side debugging capabilities, and the secure execution of some example code within an nCipher HSM. http://www.ncipher.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hardware Tokens for Mercantile Cryptography Rodney Thayer California, USA For several years now, the hardware token has been postulated to provide technical capabilites for secure portable cryptographic operations in commerce. The reality is, these devices are still an evolving technology, on the 'bleeding edge' of usefulness. This presentation will demonstrate some currently possible uses of tokens, and discuss how they can be applied to Financial Cryptography and other Internet commerce environments. Smart Cards, buttons, hardware accelerators, and other token technologies will be explored. Rodney Thayer is a long time IETF hacker, having been involved in numerous encryption and security standards. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- In and Out
[e-gold-list] Scottish Free Banking
I'd be interested in how much of the private Scottish money turned out to be bogus (either counterfeit, or being issued by the 18th century equivalent of Romanian scammers)? It would be great in an ideal world, but given the problems with the existing fiat currencies, and the suspicions many people have about some (OSgold being the most commonly mentioned), and the ethereal nature of the internet, is it as feasible? One of my eccentricities is reading business magazines, and a number of articles recently have been commenting on the economy in Somalia, which is doing quite well all things considered despite there being no central government or even local governments in many areas. While some of the institutions there have started issuing currencies, smugglers from neighbouring countries have been importing counterfeits by the truckload (and of course there is no government to try and stop them or punish them if caught!). Especially if/when digital currencies move to an encrypted model, where the actual exchangeable currency will consist of either computer code, or a smart-card/chip with heavy encryption, what is to stop the plunderers and scam artists from starting to 'mint' themselves endless funds, or 'copy' other people's funds? New Books at Discount Prices --- Send the right message --- + Today freemail + Get your free, private email address at http://www.today.com.au --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Scottish Free Banking
I'd be interested in how much of the private Scottish money turned out to be bogus (either counterfeit, or being issued by the 18th century equivalent of Romanian scammers)? almost none humans are great at doing things to make money. the companiess issuing the currency could only make money by limiting counterfeiting to low levels. thus, with the axiomatic beauty of self-interest, counterfeiting was limited to low levels. c.f. the US Government Dollars, which is awash with conterfeit, unfortunately. It would be great in an ideal world, but given the problems with the existing fiat currencies, and the suspicions many people have about some (OSgold being the most commonly mentioned), and the ethereal nature of the internet, is it as feasible? Well, e-gold exists. click here http://e-gold.com We all trust Douglas, who is eccentric and arguably unusual, with ten million a week in transactions and tens of millions in the safe. Other companies would build equal trust, and as I point out a central clearing mechinsm is the ultimate imprimatur of trust -- it is equivalent to saying a money is, what it is. Life is good!! One of my eccentricities is reading business magazines, and a number of articles recently have been commenting on the economy in Somalia, which is doing quite well all things considered despite there being no central government or even local governments in many areas. While some of the institutions there have started issuing currencies, smugglers from neighbouring countries have been importing counterfeits by the truckload (and of course there is no government to try and stop them or punish them if caught!). I think (a) that country has no rule of law, so you're fucked. Who cares if the money gets counterfieted? More fundamentally, contracts can't be enforced and property can't be maintained. (b) even GIVEN that there is no rule of law, I bet in time someone would develop a hard to counterfiet money for there. or, they'd have their own guns to strongarm anyone who did counterfiet the money. issuing money is lucrative (observe - government always steals the function eventually) and human ingenuity will solve all problems, bar none. Especially if/when digital currencies move to an encrypted model, where the actual exchangeable currency will consist of either computer code, or a smart-card/chip with heavy encryption, what is to stop the plunderers and scam artists from starting to 'mint' themselves endless funds, or 'copy' other people's funds? Nothing whatsover. There are scam currencies aplenty (no names will be mentioned). --- Great ventures create great mottos. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Hong Kong Monetary Authority
Subject: Yam's Empire Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:20:06 -0400 From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB990128659479662118.htm May 18, 2001 International Commentary Joseph Yam's Empire Is the Hong Kong Monetary Authority a central bank? The ready answer should be no, since it is charged with running a currency board arrangement. A currency board means that Hong Kong dollars can only be created when U.S. dollars are deposited in the Exchange Fund. The HKMA isn't supposed to serve as a provider of liquidity in times of market stress, as central banks do. Rather its mandate is to deter speculative attacks on the Hong Kong dollar with an iron-clad promise to redeem the local currency at the fixed rate. With an Exchange Fund of $115.1 billion it certainly has the resources to do so, down to the last coin in circulation. But the HKMA's resolve to carry through on the promise is the critical factor in the success of this arrangement. So it's worrying that the HKMA is looking more and more like a full-service central bank. That raises doubts in many people's minds whether, faced with a crisis, it would indeed behave like a currency board, or if the government would choose to abandon the fixed rate and give a stressed banking sector relief from high interest rates. The chief executive of the HKMA, Joseph Yam, enjoys a great deal of autonomy and good relations with his political masters. His organization is a statutory body, technically not part of the civil service, and it has its own source of funding, the returns from managing the territory's monetary reserves. Mr. Yam reports to the financial secretary, and an advisory group oversees his stewardship of the reserves. But this group is made up largely of bankers, who in turn are regulated by Mr. Yam. It's interesting to note that the chief executive is allowed to pay himself a salary of over $1.2 million. This is about four times the remuneration of the financial secretary, and more than many large countries pay their central bank governors. The authority has grown tremendously in its eight years of operation. It employed 607 people last year, up from from 324 when it was created through the merger of the Exchange Fund and the Office of the Commissioner of Banking in 1993. And expect more expansion in years to come. Mr. Yam is planning to move from his current cramped quarters, three floors in downtown Victoria's Citibank Tower, to 14 floors in the International Finance Centre, totalling 340,000 square feet. Last month the Legislative Council tried without success to restrain Mr. Yam from spending $474.4 million, more than Hong Kong's annual education budget, on the new digs. It's true that the bulk of the HKMA's expansion has little to do with the currency board. Mr. Yam found growth opportunities in his other areas of responsibility, regulating banks and developing Hong Kong's financial system. For instance, he set up a company to create mortgage-backed bonds in order to promote the local bond market. Now he wants to oversee consumer protection for banking products. As part of introducing deposit insurancehe will get vetting power over all appointments of banks' senior managers. And of course Mr. Yam has a busy schedule of attending conferences and giving speeches to his central bank colleagues around the world. The danger of lumping such a large and fancy operation with a currency board is that it inevitably encourages the public to believe the HKMA can steer Hong Kong through financial crises with relatively little pain. After all, the more resources you put in, the more you expect to get out. Nothing has been done to discourage this misconception. In 1998 the HKMA created a discount window so that it could lend overnight money to banks using bonds as collateral. Employed in moderation to smooth out some sudden drops in liquidity, this measure doesn't necessarily weaken the currency board. But taken in connection with other signs of central-bank envy it undermines the notion that Hong Kong is prepared to suffer the pain of high interest rates in order to defend the fixed rate of exchange. In a column posted on his Web site last month, Mr. Yam explained that Hong Kong needs large amounts of reserves far in excess of those needed to back the local currency in circulation. That's so that the government can ward off speculators without interest rates spiking upward, as would happen with a simple currency board operation. Mr. Yam cites as example the government's intervention in the stock market to defeat currency speculators in the wicked month of August 1998, when Hong Kong was hit by the tidal waves of international finance. About $10 billion was used defending the currency, $15 billion was used buying stocks and $13 billion was used enlarging the monetary base in order to minimize the increase in interest rates
[e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links
Reid, (snip) We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with osgold.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. (end snip) Your actions seem rather hasty, in my modest (unsolicited) opinion. Omnipay has once again made a rather major policy change without the courtesy of informing the Market Makers before implementation. While I do realize that e-Gold, Ltd., GSR (dba Omnipay) can (and frequently do) make any decision they please and implement them with lightening speed, this type of inconsideration for the companies that allow the general public INTO the e-gold system does little to promote a cooperative effort. I specifically remember hearing discussion of e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR (Omnipay) giving Market Makers 30 days notice BEFORE such major policy changes would be put into effect at the Indian River Summit hosted by GSR on Oct. of 2000. Now, this may have only been talk at the time, but I (speaking for myself, no one else) was under the impression this was going to be carried out. It appears, sadly enough, this was just talk and not policy after all. Is/Was anything mentioned in the circle chair discussion to be believed by the Market Makers? While e-Gold, Ltd. may have issues with competing currencies such as OSGold, GoldMoney and Standard Reserve, will e-Gold, Ltd. or GSR (dba Omnipay) always strive to stifle the growth of the overall Gold Economy by censoring the information that is directly available to e-gold users? By eliminating all links to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, we wake up to find out that e-gold does not want to be associated with OSGold (cool, so don't be...no big deal) so they have terminated links to the MM's who DO want to be associated with OSGold. This kind of reminds me of the way my nephew dislikes sharing his Tonka Toy dump truck with my niece, so he hides it under the bed when she wakes from her naps! Communication is normally comprised of a two way channel. I can see something like: Hello, we have concluded that we do have some issues with another gold currency that some of you also work with. We feel that this may be a conflict of interest because (fill in your feelings here). Therefore, we would like to request you remove said currency's information from your website until such time that this issue can be resolved. If you so choose not to, then within 24 hours your links will be removed from our website. having a positive impact on the relationship with the people who sell your product. However: We have decided to censor what e-gold users my learn about, oops, I mean We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with Osgood.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. Sounds more like e-Gold, Ltd. is getting nervous about the amount of business that OSGold is starting to transact. It has been pointed out
[e-gold-list] Re: [e-gold-list]Bravo Eric!!!
to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, we wake up to find out that e-gold does not want to be associated with OSGold (cool, so don't be...no big deal) so they have terminated links to the MM's who DO want to be associated with OSGold. This kind of reminds me of the way my nephew dislikes sharing his Tonka Toy dump truck with my niece, so he hides it under the bed when she wakes from her naps! Communication is normally comprised of a two way channel. I can see something like: Hello, we have concluded that we do have some issues with another gold currency that some of you also work with. We feel that this may be a conflict of interest because (fill in your feelings here). Therefore, we would like to request you remove said currency's information from your website until such time that this issue can be resolved. If you so choose not to, then within 24 hours your links will be removed from our website. having a positive impact on the relationship with the people who sell your product. However: We have decided to censor what e-gold users my learn about, oops, I mean We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with Osgood.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. Sounds more like e-Gold, Ltd. is getting nervous about the amount of business that OSGold is starting to transact. It has been pointed out on a number of occasions by a few members of the GSR administration and Discussion List subscribers that OSGold is not a serious competitor, I think the adjectives scam or joke may have even thrown out. IF it is to be taken so lightly, why have you reacted with the force of a double barrel shot gun blast to the oral cavity of the cranium? Truthfully, Gaithmans has not even completed a single transaction for OSGold as of yet, but you make me think that I must be missing out on some lucrative profits. Can you at LEAST take about, oh, five minutes to explain you decision and hasty move? (Don't worry, we all know you have to check with a certain close relative before you reply, we will patiently wait for him to give you permission.) (Insert Jeopardy theme song music here) Many of us MM's have prodded you in the past to be more responsive, to be more communicative, to help US help the CLIENTS of e-gold. Should they (e-gold users) see this as your, (help me here, Regis!) your FINAL ANSWER? Did you consider that some of the Market Makers might listen to your rationales and agree with you? Ironically, this action just shows that you (e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR) have NO CONCERN whatsoever for the Market Makers. I am starting to see this a little clearer now...we ARE of use as long as we only mention
[e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links
Euro Gold Line can still be found at http://www.eurogoldline.nl What you have done is issued a solid blow to the integrity of e-gold, not to anyone else. Quite frankly, I hope that the MM's that remain on your list will tell that also. You brought this on a list for the world to see without prior notification to anyone concerned, when you had the opportunity to do so. Thank you for your support, where are you when we need YOU? Frank Euro Gold Line Admin tel: +31-26-844-0113 FAX: -31-26-844-0342 --- Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reid, (snip) We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with osgold.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. (end snip) Your actions seem rather hasty, in my modest (unsolicited) opinion. Omnipay has once again made a rather major policy change without the courtesy of informing the Market Makers before implementation. While I do realize that e-Gold, Ltd., GSR (dba Omnipay) can (and frequently do) make any decision they please and implement them with lightening speed, this type of inconsideration for the companies that allow the general public INTO the e-gold system does little to promote a cooperative effort. I specifically remember hearing discussion of e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR (Omnipay) giving Market Makers 30 days notice BEFORE such major policy changes would be put into effect at the Indian River Summit hosted by GSR on Oct. of 2000. Now, this may have only been talk at the time, but I (speaking for myself, no one else) was under the impression this was going to be carried out. It appears, sadly enough, this was just talk and not policy after all. Is/Was anything mentioned in the circle chair discussion to be believed by the Market Makers? While e-Gold, Ltd. may have issues with competing currencies such as OSGold, GoldMoney and Standard Reserve, will e-Gold, Ltd. or GSR (dba Omnipay) always strive to stifle the growth of the overall Gold Economy by censoring the information that is directly available to e-gold users? By eliminating all links to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, we wake up to find out that e-gold does not want to be associated with OSGold (cool, so don't be...no big deal) so they have terminated links to the MM's who DO want to be associated with OSGold. This kind of reminds me of the way my nephew dislikes sharing his Tonka Toy dump truck with my niece, so he hides it under the bed when she wakes from her naps! Communication is normally comprised of a two way channel. I can see something like: Hello, we have concluded that we do have some issues with another gold currency that some of you also work with. We feel that this may be a conflict of interest because (fill in your feelings here). Therefore, we would like to request you remove said currency's
[e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links
Euro Gold Line can still be found at http://www.eurogoldline.nl What you have done is issued a solid blow to the integrity of e-gold, not to anyone else. Quite frankly, I hope that the MM's that remain on your list will tell that also. You brought this on a list for the world to see without prior notification to anyone concerned, when you had the opportunity to do so. Thank you for your support, where are you when we need YOU? Frank Euro Gold Line Admin tel: +31-26-844-0113 FAX: -31-26-844-0342 --- Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reid, (snip) We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with osgold.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. (end snip) Your actions seem rather hasty, in my modest (unsolicited) opinion. Omnipay has once again made a rather major policy change without the courtesy of informing the Market Makers before implementation. While I do realize that e-Gold, Ltd., GSR (dba Omnipay) can (and frequently do) make any decision they please and implement them with lightening speed, this type of inconsideration for the companies that allow the general public INTO the e-gold system does little to promote a cooperative effort. I specifically remember hearing discussion of e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR (Omnipay) giving Market Makers 30 days notice BEFORE such major policy changes would be put into effect at the Indian River Summit hosted by GSR on Oct. of 2000. Now, this may have only been talk at the time, but I (speaking for myself, no one else) was under the impression this was going to be carried out. It appears, sadly enough, this was just talk and not policy after all. Is/Was anything mentioned in the circle chair discussion to be believed by the Market Makers? While e-Gold, Ltd. may have issues with competing currencies such as OSGold, GoldMoney and Standard Reserve, will e-Gold, Ltd. or GSR (dba Omnipay) always strive to stifle the growth of the overall Gold Economy by censoring the information that is directly available to e-gold users? By eliminating all links to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, we wake up to find out that e-gold does not want to be associated with OSGold (cool, so don't be...no big deal) so they have terminated links to the MM's who DO want to be associated with OSGold. This kind of reminds me of the way my nephew dislikes sharing his Tonka Toy dump truck with my niece, so he hides it under the bed when she wakes from her naps! Communication is normally comprised of a two way channel. I can see something like: Hello, we have concluded that we do have some issues with another gold currency that some of you also work with. We feel that this may be a conflict of interest because (fill in your feelings here). Therefore, we would like to request you remove said currency's
[e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links
Eric, Again, you have hit it on the nail. Since e-gold started to use the MM, in my humble opinion, e-gold has had more business. As one of the e-gold staff once told me, Mike, your IDEA will be good. competition for e-gold is good. This person knows who s/he is and this is one person in e-gold that I respect very much. For e-gold taking off the sites that have links to an other online payment system, I feel that they have cut the horse's head. Come on Ried, think about what you are doing. You guys started to use the MM so that your risk would be lower, etc I was even thinking of starting a MM in South East Asia based out of Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, and Hong Kong. I have even invested quite a lot of money getting everything ready to do this. Now, I ask you this Ried, Should I cut my loses now, or later. MIKE = This email address is being terminated by May 30th, 2001. Please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you, MIKE - Original Message - From: Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:32 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links | Reid, | | (snip) | We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with osgold.com; | therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites | that link or make reference to osgold.com. | (end snip) | |Your actions seem rather hasty, in my modest (unsolicited) opinion. | Omnipay has once again made a rather major policy change without the | courtesy of informing the Market Makers before implementation. While I do | realize that e-Gold, Ltd., GSR (dba Omnipay) can (and frequently do) make | any decision they please and implement them with lightening speed, this | type of inconsideration for the companies that allow the general public INTO | the e-gold system does little to promote a cooperative effort. I | specifically remember hearing discussion of e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR (Omnipay) | giving Market Makers 30 days notice BEFORE such major policy changes would | be put into effect at the Indian River Summit hosted by GSR on Oct. of | 2000. Now, this may have only been talk at the time, but I (speaking for | myself, no one else) was under the impression this was going to be carried | out. It appears, sadly enough, this was just talk and not policy after | all. Is/Was anything mentioned in the circle chair discussion to be | believed by the Market Makers? | | While e-Gold, Ltd. may have issues with competing currencies such as | OSGold, GoldMoney and Standard Reserve, will e-Gold, Ltd. or GSR (dba | Omnipay) always strive to stifle the growth of the overall Gold Economy by | censoring the information that is directly available to e-gold users? By | eliminating all links to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have | effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a | Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating | the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results | could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from | the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold | Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top | services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client | base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to | control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a | fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency | available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, | but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who | whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about | GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold | users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain | why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on | multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the | clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? | | I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was | working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) | deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to | add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. | Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. | Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am | still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase | amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange | requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, | we wake up to find out that e-gold does
[e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links
eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, we wake up to find out that e-gold does not want to be associated with OSGold (cool, so don't be...no big deal) so they have terminated links to the MM's who DO want to be associated with OSGold. This kind of reminds me of the way my nephew dislikes sharing his Tonka Toy dump truck with my niece, so he hides it under the bed when she wakes from her naps! Communication is normally comprised of a two way channel. I can see something like: Hello, we have concluded that we do have some issues with another gold currency that some of you also work with. We feel that this may be a conflict of interest because (fill in your feelings here). Therefore, we would like to request you remove said currency's information from your website until such time that this issue can be resolved. If you so choose not to, then within 24 hours your links will be removed from our website. having a positive impact on the relationship with the people who sell your product. However: We have decided to censor what e-gold users my learn about, oops, I mean We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with Osgood.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. Sounds more like e-Gold, Ltd. is getting nervous about the amount of business that OSGold is starting to transact. It has been pointed out on a number of occasions by a few members of the GSR administration and Discussion List subscribers that OSGold is not a serious competitor, I think the adjectives scam or joke may have even thrown out. IF it is to be taken so lightly, why have you reacted with the force of a double barrel === message truncated === = Get your free OSGold or e-gold account, visit our site and click on one of the buttons. http://www.eurogoldline.nl Need to manage your e-gold account? Compare our rates. Serving Europe, but available WORLDWIDE! http://www.eurogoldline.nl Want a debit card tied to your e-gold? http://www.cashcards.net/rep/23239 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: [e-gold-list]Bravo Eric!!!
Julian, Thanks for your interpretation. I agree, they do seem to be doing a C.Y.A. maneuver. What is disturbing is the action in which this method was employed. Absolutely no warning was given to existing Market Makers or e-gold users of this action. Yes, it is a restriction. Users are now limited in the choice of Market Makers by this action. C.Y.A. or not, it is a restriction. Now, my olfactory senses may be impaired, but can you please explain this bad smell that you say is originating in OSGold? If there is such a foul odor coming from that direction...could Omnipay have better handled the situation by stating its concerns, offering the chance to comply, THEN removing links of those who would not comply? Reid has just now posted a remark indicating that MM's can be RE-linked to the e-Gold website if they comply. Hmm.. ReadySHOOT...aim! I am certainly glad this is a digital currency matter rather than Law Enforcement matter. I only live two hours from Cincinnati, OH where such similar actions by the Law Enforcement Agency (police) caused several days of riots. Why? Once again the minority population felt that brute force (deadly, actually) was used without cause and resulted in the death of an unarmed citizen. Of course, the police officer who pulled the trigger was also C.H.O.A (covering his own a--) as he thought a weapon was being pulled. Bad lighting, immediate action without proper interpretation of facts resulted in death. I know that e-Gold is not probably out to kill any Market Makers with their actions. (The policeman said he just meant to halt the victim) I have had a mutually beneficial relationship with e-Gold for close to one year now. However, I was never informed of suspicious vapors coming from OSGold and certainly not given a chance to decide whether I wanted to continue my relationship with OSGold or lose my link to on the e-Gold Directory. What kind of consideration is that? My link, along with five or so others, were simply removed. THEN we got a three sentence explanation from Reid. I am all for choice, free trade, variety, decisions, and the right to decide for myself with whom and how I will do business. I am not sure that the basic e-gold user base (especially those just now signing up and unfamiliar with other Directories or websites) can say those same rights are afforded to them in the new censored e-Gold business model. But, that is just my (unsolicited) opinion... Thanks for hearing me out, Julian. By the way, how is your hunt for the ultimate e-gold funded, offshore debit card going? Eric - Original Message - From: Julian Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [e-gold-list] Re: [e-gold-list]Bravo Eric!!! Eric J. Gaither wrote: Reid has effectively told you, the e-gold user, that you may not do business with a company that does business with another gold currency. E-gold, which claims to be non-judgmental, non-reputable, and non-biased (based on the idea of being Hard money) now claims it wants to regulate the amount of information and choices users have the right to view. Bull. They pulled their own site's links to people who deal with a company which is giving off a bad smell. They haven't de-listed companies dealing with Standard Reserve or Goldmoney. MMs who deal with osgold keep their own sites and have not had their e-gold accounts locked. Other directory sites may still list osgold and MMs who deal with them. The pattern indicates legal C.Y.A., not censorship or restraint of trade. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: [e-gold-list]Bravo Eric!!!
Ericjust like our government...trying to tell us how we can spend our moneyugh Joyce Marie --- Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reid, (snip) We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with osgold.com; therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites that link or make reference to osgold.com. (end snip) Your actions seem rather hasty, in my modest (unsolicited) opinion. Omnipay has once again made a rather major policy change without the courtesy of informing the Market Makers before implementation. While I do realize that e-Gold, Ltd., GSR (dba Omnipay) can (and frequently do) make any decision they please and implement them with lightening speed, this type of inconsideration for the companies that allow the general public INTO the e-gold system does little to promote a cooperative effort. I specifically remember hearing discussion of e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR (Omnipay) giving Market Makers 30 days notice BEFORE such major policy changes would be put into effect at the Indian River Summit hosted by GSR on Oct. of 2000. Now, this may have only been talk at the time, but I (speaking for myself, no one else) was under the impression this was going to be carried out. It appears, sadly enough, this was just talk and not policy after all. Is/Was anything mentioned in the circle chair discussion to be believed by the Market Makers? While e-Gold, Ltd. may have issues with competing currencies such as OSGold, GoldMoney and Standard Reserve, will e-Gold, Ltd. or GSR (dba Omnipay) always strive to stifle the growth of the overall Gold Economy by censoring the information that is directly available to e-gold users? By eliminating all links to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S seemed to add fuel to the fire rather than promote the cohesion of said relationships. Promises or talks made at the conference continuously get broken. Requests for simple information from the Market Makers gets ignored. (I am still waiting just to hear from you about the requirements for gold purchase amounts of MM's that I asked several days ago.) Shifts in InExchange requirements are announced without informing the MM's a few weeks ago. Now, we wake up to find out that e-gold does not want to be associated with OSGold (cool, so don't be...no big deal) so they have terminated links to the MM's who DO want to be associated with OSGold. This kind of reminds me of the way my nephew dislikes sharing his Tonka Toy dump truck with my niece, so he hides it under the bed when she wakes from her naps! Communication is normally comprised of a two way channel. I can see something like: Hello, we have concluded that we do have some issues with another gold currency that some of you also work with. We feel that this may be a conflict of interest because (fill in your feelings here). Therefore, we would like to request you remove said currency's information from your website until such time that this issue can be resolved. If you so choose not to, then within 24 hours your links will be removed from our website. having a positive impact on the relationship with the people who sell your product. However: We have decided to censor what e-gold users my learn about, oops, I mean We do not wish to be associated, even
[e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links
I disagree - it seems that Mr. Kelly made OSgold an issue here and now he wants to dictate terms to e-gold (have I missed something)? If OSgold is as great a profit center as everyone says, the de-listed affiliates shouldn't even miss e-gold. From: Mike Poulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 02:32:23 +0700 Eric, Again, you have hit it on the nail. Since e-gold started to use the MM, in my humble opinion, e-gold has had more business. As one of the e-gold staff once told me, Mike, your IDEA will be good. competition for e-gold is good. This person knows who s/he is and this is one person in e-gold that I respect very much. For e-gold taking off the sites that have links to an other online payment system, I feel that they have cut the horse's head. Come on Ried, think about what you are doing. You guys started to use the MM so that your risk would be lower, etc I was even thinking of starting a MM in South East Asia based out of Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, and Hong Kong. I have even invested quite a lot of money getting everything ready to do this. Now, I ask you this Ried, Should I cut my loses now, or later. MIKE = This email address is being terminated by May 30th, 2001. Please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you, MIKE - Original Message - From: Eric J. Gaither [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:32 PM Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: Public Announcement regarding OSGold links | Reid, | | (snip) | We do not wish to be associated, even indirectly, with osgold.com; | therefore, we have removed all links from the e-gold website to websites | that link or make reference to osgold.com. | (end snip) | |Your actions seem rather hasty, in my modest (unsolicited) opinion. | Omnipay has once again made a rather major policy change without the | courtesy of informing the Market Makers before implementation. While I do | realize that e-Gold, Ltd., GSR (dba Omnipay) can (and frequently do) make | any decision they please and implement them with lightening speed, this | type of inconsideration for the companies that allow the general public INTO | the e-gold system does little to promote a cooperative effort. I | specifically remember hearing discussion of e-Gold, Ltd. and GSR (Omnipay) | giving Market Makers 30 days notice BEFORE such major policy changes would | be put into effect at the Indian River Summit hosted by GSR on Oct. of | 2000. Now, this may have only been talk at the time, but I (speaking for | myself, no one else) was under the impression this was going to be carried | out. It appears, sadly enough, this was just talk and not policy after | all. Is/Was anything mentioned in the circle chair discussion to be | believed by the Market Makers? | | While e-Gold, Ltd. may have issues with competing currencies such as | OSGold, GoldMoney and Standard Reserve, will e-Gold, Ltd. or GSR (dba | Omnipay) always strive to stifle the growth of the overall Gold Economy by | censoring the information that is directly available to e-gold users? By | eliminating all links to websites that make reference to OSGold, you have | effectively eliminated the choices that new e-gold users have in choosing a | Market Maker which best fits their specific needs. Outside of eliminating | the mentioning OSGold on such websites...what possible positive results | could materialize from removing links to the MAJOR e-gold Market Makers from | the Directory? Business Express, Gold Now, Git-Gold and Gaithmans Gold | Nation, Inc. (just the ones I immediately noticed) are four of the top | services which provide InExchange and OutExchange services for YOUR client | base. You are effectively telling YOUR clients you have the right to | control what information THEY can and cannot view by REACTING in such a | fashion. Is e-Gold, Ltd. really the ONLY gold-backed, digital currency | available to the Gold Economy population? No, it is not. It was the first, | but not the last. Will you next eliminate the links to those services who | whisper the good name of Standard Reserve gold as well? How about | GoldMoney? 3PGold? e-Bullion? Is it really in the best interest of e-gold | users to be told that e-gold is the ONLY gold currency? Uhm..please explain | why again it effects e-Gold, Ltd. if a website contains information on | multiple currencies? Seems to me that is in the best interest of the | clients and customers, am I incorrect in that assumption? | | I have been perplexed over the past year as to how something that was | working so efficiently last August (e-gold and Market Maker relationships) | deteriorated so quickly into an US vs. THEM mentality. The IR S
[e-gold-list] Re: Dreams of a cashless society
From: Somebody To: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Dreams of a cashless society Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:43:04 +0100 Every month brings closer the dream of a cashless society. Still, no new scheme has found a killer application --- The Dream is now a Reality. The Cash Card powered by Standard Reserve is without a doubt the Killer Application. Cash Cards have taken the world by storm, with over 25,000 members in 80 countries joining in just the 1st month. The Stored-Value - Digital Currency - Transaction Card is revolutionizing International eCommerce as we know it. Great for individuals or businesses. Transferring funds worldwide to anyone, those funds are instantly available at over 500,000 ATM's and in any currency. Use the Cash Card for purchases at 1,000's of merchants on or off the Internet. Employers can use the Cash Cards for Payroll. Affiliate program managers can use Cash Cards for paying commissions. Merchants can now accept Cash Cards with 100% no chance of Chargebacks. Egold users can transfer funds to their Cash Card account, where they are readily accessible at any ATM worldwide! And as always, transfers from Egold are FREE! The Killer Ap has definitely arrived, and is available exclusively through Cash Cards International. And, Cash Cards offers an extremely lucrative Reseller Program that is FREE to join! Yours In Success, Steve Renner, Founder Cash Cards International, LLC 250 Second Ave S #110 Minneapolis, MN 55401 Phone: (612) 332-6025 Fax: (612) 673-0883 ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ http://www.cashcards.net mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Excerpt of Barron's article mentioning e-gold
This is a fair use excerpt (I hope) but please go out and buy the current issue of Barron's, which will be on sale until the new issue comes out on Saturday. The article is titled Making New Money and it's by Jack White and Doug Ramsey. Any typos are mine. It's on page 59 of the current (April 23, 2001) issue in the Editorial Commentary section. ... ...Financial innovators will create new stores of value and new legal tender for e-commerce. Ultimately, those digital currencies that offer the best combination of tech- nology, utility, liquidity, transparency and long-term value will outshine the euro, the dollar, and the yen. The surprising thing is that it's taking so long. The decline of the gold standard, competitive devaluations and tariff hikes dried up international trade in the 1930s and should have destroyed the world's faith in fiat money. Instead, after World War II, the major economic powers devised an international monetary system at Bretton Woods that left central banks with the discretion to print money--a discretion most countries abused frequently, even after the collapse of that system in the 1970s. Since the 1940s, the dollar has lost 90% of its value. There are dozens of current experiments in online currency: DigiCash, e-money, iDollars, cybermoney, e-cash, eBucks, virtual cash, cyberbucks, CyberCoin, cybercash and more. Their sponsors, however, have put more thought into the brand names than the prod- ucts. They have attempted to create e-commerce pay- ment systems that are easy and secure but based on the dollar. They have created proxies for a traditional currency, rather than a new currency in its own right. But it may be only a short distance from virtual money to a full-fledged electronic currency, which we might call Electronic Trading Units, or ETUs for short. Good as gold ETUs would have to be immune to political pres- sure, and either fully or largely backed by tangible assets. E-currencies of the future will be only as strong as the groups issuing them. The ideal e-cur- rency might even be backed by gold. Encrypted digital units of the precious metal, even in tiny quantities, could in principle be used to pay for anything from a soft drink to a jet plane. One company, E-gold, already allows online users to settle payments using its currency, which is 100% backed by gold. Ownership of the gold changes, but the physical bullion stays put with the company, which is based on the Caribbean island of Nevis. The system also is transparent: Holders have real-time access to the total amount of e-gold in circulation, and the compa- ny's total bullion reserves. If gold remains a barbarous relic, there still are other sources of strength for e-currencies. International trading companies such as Cargill, Mitsubishi and Jar- dine Matheson handle large shares of international trade, so they could give an e-currency the strength it needs to get off the ground. After-hours trading systems and electronic communication networks such as Instinet and Optimark have already created virtual markets that could easily match buy and sell orders for e-currency as they do for stocks. Remember, folks, please go out and buy the dead-trees version of this whole issue of Barron's if you can. The rest of the article is also well-done (the authors 'get' frequent-flyer miles as a privately-issued currency, for example) so it's worth buying the issue. Thanks. JMR --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold
Back to Paul Valhur's question: the reason that it does matter whether GSR invests in or allows fractional reserve schemes backed by e-gold is this: These fractional reserve schemes create money (digital bearer-held notes, or book-entry) using the denomination "grams of gold". This ethergold floating around out there under the name of gold increases the supply of "gold" relative to other goods and services. This causes the value of all gold to slightly drop in purchasing power, specifically digital gold currencies. While e-gold is not at corporate risk due to fractional reserve schemes that use e-gold; e-gold, GoldMoney and all other "grams of gold" currencies will lose purchasing power as a result of these schemes that issue ether-gold and call it "grams of gold". That is a type of risk. And, as Claude pointed out, all it takes is one fractional reserve company suffering a run and folding to generate inaccurate media reports that will equate e-gold with the failed currency. The reputation damage could also harm the purchasing power of e-gold, so that is also a risk. As long as all the notes you have issued add up to the amount of backing you have in the vault, there isn't a problem. Or if the fractional reserve schemes did not call their notes "grams of gold" the problem could also be avoided. HK On 18 Apr 2001, at 10:28, James M. Ray wrote: and risks taken by GSR *DO* *NOT* risk *ANY* of the metal that's owned by account holders! On that, I agree. Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == Protect your privacy! - Get Freedom 2.0 at http://www.freedom.net --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold vs. GoldMoney
On 17 Apr 2001, at 18:42, Paul Vahur wrote: GoldMoney - electronic money backed 100% with gold. Unlike physical gold can't (is not allowed to) be used in frb, thus enabling it to be used only as a means of exchange. Hello Paul, Goldmoney is a digital currency 100% back by gold, exactly like e- gold. Like e-gold, it can be use by a third party to make up a reserve that can be leverage through fractional reserve banking. However, both e-gold and GoldMoney will not have liabilities, make loans or enter into FRB practices. In that regard, they are exactly the same. The differences between the two are at 3 levels I think: 1) the owner of a goldgram is the owner of that portion of gold in the vault. In the e-gold system, the gram of gold in the vault is held in trust by The Trust on behalf of the beneficiary of the e-gold account 2) A goldgram cannot have an encumbrance created against it by its owner. in other words, the goldgram cannot be pledged as collateral value in a contract. I think that is not true of a gram of e- gold. However, both goldgrams and grams of e-gold can be loaned. 3) A different distribution approach: E-gold has a main exchnage provider that also acts as the guardian and the operator of the e- gold system. That is Gold SIlver Reserve who is the only entity that can bail gold bars in the system. GoldMoney relies on independent cambios to market the goldgrams. These Cambios have nothing to do with the operation of the GoldMoney System. Any cambio can bail in a gold bar. In other words, in the GoldMoney System, there is total separation between the system operator and exchange providers. Such is not the case in the e-gold system. Which way is better...time will tell. That is how I understand the differences between both system. Claude --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Interesting Article Comparing E-gold, Standard Reserve, GoldMoney
On 13 Apr 2001, at 6:29, Viking Coder wrote: I don't understand why it's a bad thing to allow a 100% backed currency to be used as the basis for a fractional reserve banking system. Because you introduce a new risk. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is then no longer backed 100% by an hard asset (gold) as soon as you use credit instruments to increase your broad money base. Claude Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Interesting Article Comparing E-gold, Standard Reserve, GoldMoney
I don't understand why it's a bad thing to allow a 100% backed currency to be used as the basis for a fractional reserve banking system. Because you introduce a new risk. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is then no longer backed 100% by an hard asset (gold) as soon as you use credit instruments to increase your broad money base. Huh??? A risk for which currency? There are two units of account involved. Nothing has changed for the backing unit. CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Fractional Reserve Banking
On 13 Apr 2001, at 11:38, CCS wrote: Because you introduce a new risk. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is then no longer backed 100% by an hard asset (gold) as soon as you use credit instruments to increase your broad money base. Huh??? A risk for which currency? There are two units of account involved. Nothing has changed for the backing unit. True, the risk is for the digital currency system as a whole. Say e-gold (or any other gold currency issuer) starts issuing e-gold Bonds. For each grams in reserve they issue 10 grams worth of paper e-gold bonds. This creates risk for the holders of these bonds which are now part of this digital currency system. Altough the basic unit of account is a gram of gold, the fractional reserve system makes it that it there are now 10 holders of an e-gold bond with a face value of 'x' gram that have a claim on the same 'x' gram(s) of gold. Since we don't know what happen with the proceeds from the issuance of these e-gold bonds, the risk cannot be controlled. That is how I understand fractional reserve banking. Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Frac reserve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
VC writes: "I don't understand why it's a bad thing to allow a 100% backed
currency to be used as the basis for a fractional reserve banking system."
It's pretty simple, it causes inflation. Right now DigiGold's literature
says that is maintains a 25% reserve. If fractional reserve services such
as DigiGold were to take off so that, say, half of e-gold's reserve was
being used as the backing for 25% fractional reserve currencies, then the
actual amount of "gold" in circulation would be 2.5 times e-gold's total
reserve. ( e-gold's reserve + (1/2 of e-gold's reserve * 3)). More than
doubling the "money supply" would cause the value of the gold to fall in
half. In reality that is an oversimplification, since the borrower of the
DigiGold will then redeposit his borrowed funds ("ether-gold") back into
DigiGold, which allows the same money to be quadrupled again, and again, and
again. So, in reality, DigiGold with its 25% reserve, may actually create
10 times the quantity of "ether-gold" as the real gold in its reserve.
Gold's value to the world as money is that it is relatively fixed in
quanitity, and only grows at the rate of 1-2% per year.
In order to really adversely affect the price of gold, fractional reserve
currencies would have to be a lot bigger than they are now. But GATA
thinks the reason gold is so cheap right now is because of central banks
selling derivatives on gold, which is essentially the same type of
fractional reserve practice. When the same piece of gold is counted twice,
once in the account of the lender, once in the account of the borrower, then
you will have "gold inflation" which results in a low price for gold.
In real life, what I expect will happen is that the currencies that are used
for fractional reserve banking with gold will devalue against the 100%
backed companies. (Since e-gold is 100% backed, it may cause DigiGold to
start sinking in value compared to e-gold. It would take three grams of
DigiGold to buy one gram of e-gold, for example.)
The solution to this dilemna is to only lend gold that has been borrowed on
a fixed-time contract. In other words, CD's don't cause this problem
because the depositor does not have a "demand account" from which he can
withdraw his gold at any time. This way the gold doesn't get counted twice
and inflation does not result.
Ultimately, fractional reserve banking is fraud, especially with gold,
because if you add up all the deposits, they are far more than the actual
gold in the vaults. Banks and companies that practice it are selling "gold"
that is reality "nothing". They use units of weight like grams, but they
are not selling the customer a real gram of gold, they are selling
ether-gold.
HK
This is complete misunderstanding of the process of monetary creation
used by banks and other creators of money (i.e. currency boards which
back their currency with a Secondary Earning Reserve as well as a
Primary Liquidity Reserve) in the gold economy.
Creators of money issue currency such as account balances, paper notes
or digital bearer certificates based on market demand for such
currencies. In the case we are considering, the currency is issued or
money created in exchange for gold bullion and is redeemable in like
form (either directly or via a chain of redemption).
In order to have market demand for such currency, it must *exceed* the
value of the physical monetary base, so that individuals or firms find
it profitable to tender the physical monetary base and bail it into such
institutions in exchange for their (more valuable) currencies.
Monetary institutions must offer better money (i.e. lower transaction
cost) money for the market to demand it and use it for their exchanges
and/or stores of value.
When currencies fall in value below the physical monetary base, currency
holders redeem their currency for the physical monetary base and the
monetary creation process is reversed.
The price of the physical monetary base is equal to its marginal
non-monetary revenue product, i.e. the marginal usefulness of the
commodity in the industrial production process. Monetary demand for the
physical monetary base, to hold in repositories and/or in coins actually
distorts the market and crowds out non-monetary uses. The storage and
security of the physical monetary base is a monetary transaction cost
and bids resources from productive use, thus the use of debt backed
currencies is the market transaction cost minimising response.
Debt backed currency simply means that the debts of individuals and/or
companies, which are financial assets to their creditors, are being used
as a store of value available for liquidation as may be needed to redeem
the currency. This store of value is complimented by a Primary Liquidity
Reserve to ensure the liquidity and stability of th
[e-gold-list] Re: Fractional Reserve Banking
Because you introduce a new risk. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is then no longer backed 100% by an hard asset (gold) as soon as you use credit instruments to increase your broad money base. Huh??? A risk for which currency? There are two units of account involved. Nothing has changed for the backing unit. True, the risk is for the digital currency system as a whole. Say e-gold (or any other gold currency issuer) starts issuing e-gold Bonds. For each grams in reserve they issue 10 grams worth of paper e-gold bonds. This creates risk for the holders of these bonds which are now part of this digital currency system. Altough the basic unit of account is a gram of gold, the fractional reserve system makes it that it there are now 10 holders of an e-gold bond with a face value of 'x' gram that have a claim on the same 'x' gram(s) of gold. What you say is true (altho it would violate the terms of governance of the e-gold system) but it is beside the point of what I understood to be the original topic. Namely, the assertion that the use by a 3rd party, such as SR, of e-gold to back another currency, such as AUG, would introduce risk to e-gold itself. CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Interesting Article Comparing E-gold, Standard Reserve, GoldMoney
On 13 Apr 2001, at 6:29, Viking Coder wrote: I don't understand why it's a bad thing to allow a 100% backed currency to be used as the basis for a fractional reserve banking system. Because you introduce a new risk. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is then no longer backed 100% by an hard asset (gold) as soon as you use credit instruments to increase your broad money base. Claude I still don't get it. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is not e-gold. Why should it matter if some other non-related entity uses e-gold as it's backing? If Digigold has 10% of the e-gold in circulation and decides to value it's currency at 20x it's reserve, then Digigold will have a total value 2x that of e-gold. However, e-gold is still 100% backed. It doesn't matter what people do with the currency. As long as the metal in the vault equals, or exceeds, the metal in circulation, the currency is 100% backed. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.2cw.org/VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Fractional Reserve Banking
Claude wrote I agree with this. But it could also be e-gold itself that issue those loans and then the digital currency system that is e-gold could become in default and go bankrupt. This would be in direct violation of the user agreement. e-gold ltd. cannot simply create e-gold out of thin air. e-gold ltd. does not and cannot have any liabilities. This includes stock in other corporations, any fiat currency, loans, etc... What started this thread was the assumption that a 3rd party use of e-gold as a basis for fractional reserve banking would damage e-gold and remove it from it's lofty status as 100% backed. This is what I still do not understand. CCS wrote The amount of e-gold in circulation would drop by [x amount] since its use as a currency reserve takes it out of circulation. Out of general cirulation, yes. That gold does not show up in the velocity stats anymore. However, it is still part of the e-gold in circulation. e-gold can still claim to have 4 tons of gold in circulation even if 3 tons are used as the backing for various frac. reserve currencies. Claude wrote No matter what, if the case you suggest happens, the reputation and credibility of the e-gold system would be damaged. That in itself could present some risks. Why should e-gold's reputation be damaged if Digigold or SR (in the future), or any other frac. reserve, fails? e-gold didn't fail. e-gold ltd. isn't bankrupt. The metal is still in the vault, and it is still greater than the electronic metal in circulation. The backing that was previously not in general circulation, now is. How does this damage e-gold's reputation or credibility? Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.2cw.org/VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Interesting Article Comparing E-gold, Standard Reserve, GoldMoney
On 13 Apr 2001, at 6:29, Viking Coder wrote: I don't understand why it's a bad thing to allow a 100% backed currency to be used as the basis for a fractional reserve banking system. Then Claude wrote: Because you introduce a new risk. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is then no longer backed 100% by an hard asset (gold) as soon as you use credit instruments to increase your broad money base. Hi, I disagree with the gold economy article and with Claude and others on this issue. I see absolutely no indication that using e-gold(tm) as the backing for a fractional reserve currency is a liability to e-gold(tm). This shows a fundamental lack of understanding by the writer of the article. Use SR as an example. If SR was 50% backed by e-gold(tm) (it is currently 100% backed), and there was a RUN on the currency, indeed, SR would be in BIG trouble. They would pay out 50% of their liabilities and then would be bankrupt. How does that affect e-gold(tm)? It doesn't! e-gold(tm) is still as sound as ever. In the article Digigold was used as an example... the only way a crash in the Digigold currency could cause distress for e-gold(tm) would be a PERCEPTION ISSUE, because many people with a limited understanding (like the writer of the article) would see it as a failing of e-gold(tm) because they are closely tied. In actual fact though, they are separate entities, and e-gold(tm) would remain sound. Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] fractional mystery
I still don't get it. The unit of account of the new digital currency system is not e-gold. Why should it matter if some other non-related entity uses e-gold as it's backing? If Digigold has 10% of the e-gold in circulation and decides to value it's currency at 20x it's reserve, then Digigold will have a total value 2x that of e-gold. However, e-gold is still 100% backed. It doesn't matter what people do with the currency. As long as the metal in the vault equals, or exceeds, the metal in circulation, the currency is 100% backed. I agree with Viking. Wouldn't it be like saying, for example, that GOLD ITSELF, or a basket of commodities, is inflated because some national currency (say the Euro) is fractional based on gold? Viking Coder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: small suggestion
On 12 Apr 2001, at 10:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone ever had the problem that you enter a spend, say, "5.50", and you accidentally leave the select menu set on "dollars" rather than, perhaps you MEANT to choose say grams. JP, The unit of account in the digital gold currency systems is the gram. I would get rid of the option to be able to spend in anything else but grams and instead would supply a real time calculator on the spend page to convert national currencies to grams of gold for the users who need it. I do all my spends in grams to the third decimal. And my customers are not complaining at all. Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: small suggestion
On 12 Apr 2001, at 10:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone ever had the problem that you enter a spend, say, "5.50", and you accidentally leave the select menu set on "dollars" rather than, perhaps you MEANT to choose say grams. JP, The unit of account in the digital gold currency systems is the gram. I would get rid of the option to be able to spend in anything else but grams and instead would supply a real time calculator on the spend page to convert national currencies to grams of gold for the users who need it. I do all my spends in grams to the third decimal. And my customers are not complaining at all. Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com I too am 100% grams-oriented, Claude! :) It's annoying when I accidentally leave it on "dollars" which is the default, and send someone say 10 dollars instead of 10 grams! :) For instance, http://thegoldcasino.com is 100% gram oriented (we programmed it for the owner) and it never even mentions a national currency. You actually BET in grams, centigrams, etc. I think your solution is more drastic, Claude, and would probably need a policy decision from GSR. I think if, for now, they just made a "null" option as the default one on the units-selector, it would prevent many mistakes (For example, the "recent payess" selector, of course, does not start defaulted to one of the recent payees .. that would be disastrous. Similarly, I reckon Jay should change the units-selector to start with a null default!) jpee --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
